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OK, people, listen up. Here we go. This is Nature's
Secret Service, the podcast that puts you in
the room with the men and women of wildlife law
enforcement. I'm your host, Ed Newcomer. And
I want to welcome you to the show. We're in season
two now. And one of the things that I keep being
told I should do is figure out ways to engage
with my listeners and my watchers. So I'm trying.
I'm doing my best trying to make the podcast
grow. So I'll tell you what we'll do. Anybody
who's watching this podcast knows that I'm working
on a mustache. So if you like the mustache, go
onto YouTube, go onto our social media pages
and just make a comment. Mustache equals yes
or mustache equals no. And just like the fabulous
Mr. Fox, I appreciate your advice and I value
your input, but I'll probably ignore it. All
right, our guest this week is George Wilson,
a former officer and lieutenant with the Florida
Fish and Wildlife. Conservation Commission, get
this, he's got a 36 -year career with Florida
Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission, which
is amazing. Ended his career as a lieutenant
and made his way up to overseeing the statewide
investigative unit for the state of Florida.
That may basically put him with oversight of
their surveillance unit, their internet crimes
unit, their computer forensics unit, and their
covert operations unit. Really impressive guy.
I had opportunities to work with George during
my own career and was always impressed. We always
got along well. And we actually accomplished
a hell of a lot of good things together. And
so George is going to be back on the show because
we got a lot of stuff we want to talk to George
about. But George Wilson, thanks so much for
being on the show. Hey, Ed. Thanks for inviting
me. We're going to have some more good times.
And I got to say, the mustache, it's a keeper.
It makes you look younger. Wow, younger. Despite
the fact that when we were first getting warmed
up today, the first thing you said to me was,
what's with all the gray? All right. Well, we'll
put George down that George is a mustache equals
yes. All right. Appreciate your input, George.
Hey, you and I both ended up kind of retiring
around the same time, I think within maybe a
year or two of each other. But since your retirement
with Florida, you have stayed in the mix. You've
still been involved in helping to deal with wildlife
crime issues, pretty serious wildlife crime issues.
Do you want to explain what you've been doing
since and who you've been working for? And then
we'll jump in on a really interesting topic that
is very topical and in the news right now. But
yeah, tell us what you've been doing since you
retired. Yeah, Ed, I mean, it's hard to get it
out of your system. You know, you work for so
many years, but after I retired, I connected
with a group of individuals that are all retired
fish and wildlife officers. They're former chiefs,
former commanders of some of the largest conservation
agencies in the United States. And so they have
a company where we do law enforcement consulting
in emerging countries, and we try to build a
capacity of conservation programs in developing
countries, developing nations. But it's a good
group of guys. I mean, these guys, like I said,
are former chiefs and commanders. You know, Bob
Farrell, Mike Sensi, Greg Cassad. Curtis Brown.
I mean, these are the guys that developed the
most advanced law enforcement programs in the
United States. So like me, they want to stay
committed to the cause and just kind of spreading
our knowledge around the world. That's awesome.
Yeah. Some of the names you mentioned there,
I recognize. Curtis, I think, was chief of Florida,
Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission, right?
And that's a big age. The agency you worked for
is one of the bigger state wildlife law enforcement
agencies, I think, in the country. How many sworn
officers? Like 800, 850, something like that?
Yeah, it's up to around 900 officers now. That's
incredible. Most states are lucky if they have
like 200 or 250 officers for the state. California,
I think, has about 250 -ish sworn officers. probably
landmass bigger than Florida. So that's pretty
amazing. Also, you mentioned Mike Sensei, who
was the deputy chief in Washington, and I think
very highly of the Washington Department of Fish
and Wildlife Police, for sure. And then some
of the other names you mentioned, what states
were they from? Do you remember? Bob Farrell
was the chief there in California for a while.
Then he went over to Hawaii and was the chief
over in Hawaii. Right, right. That's awesome.
Yeah, very cool. And when you do your work, are
you working through NGOs, or how does it work?
Yeah, we contract with various NGOs. If you think
about the NGOs we worked with in the United States,
the Wild Turkey Federation, Ducks Unlimited,
the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation. Well, there's
also international NGOs and nonprofits that are
working to build the capacity of other nations.
You know, you've got Wild Aid, which is based
out of California. The Nature Conservancy, you
know, based out of Virginia. You got Global Fishing
Watch, the Wildlife Justice Commission. I mean,
there's quite a few international organizations.
Yeah. And so, we consult with various organizations
to try to build these emerging countries. Yeah,
and you know, one of the things that we're not
going to talk about today, you and I, but on
another time when you're going to be on in the
future, we're going to talk about something you
and I did together along with a wildlife officer
here in California named Gary Van Atta, Operation
Wild Web, which targeted illegal sales on the
internet. And one of the key aspects of that
was working very closely with NGOs. which is
kind of unusual for law enforcement to work so
closely with NGOs, but it can be incredibly productive
when you do it right. Very. Yeah. And what we're
going to talk about today is a perfect example
of that. And what I love about this is when I
called you, I had seen this story in the news.
So what we're talking about today is very timely.
It's not like we're talking about an old case.
We're going to talk about something that's kind
of like unfolding this year and last year. And
that's Operation Red Dawn 1 and Red Dawn 2, which
is something you were involved in. And it's been
in the news. And when I saw it in the news, you
and I, I think, just happened to be talking.
And I realized you were involved in it. And I
was like, oh my gosh, George, you got to be on
the show. We got to talk about this. So tell
us a little bit about what is Operation Red Dawn
1 and 2. How did you get involved in it? Yeah.
Both operations, Red Don 1 and 2, were operations
conducted in the Bahamas. And so looking at the
Bahamas, it's a Caribbean nation. It's 50 miles
off the coast of Florida, but a very, very pristine
nation with lots of natural resources. And so
that's one of the programs where we're working
with wild aid is in the Bahamas. And so wild
aid is partnered with the Nature Conservancy.
to create a marine action partnership to build
the capacity of the Bahamas. And Bahamas is very
unique, but think about it because you have a
lot of citizens from the United States that are
traveling over to the Bahamas by vessel. And,
you know, as we know, some of these are going
to abuse the natural resources. And if you think
about the Bahamas, let's look at the Bahamas.
So it's It's over 2 ,000 islands. It's over 2
million square miles of patrol area. So think
about your responsibility to patrol in an area
like that. But the Bahamas, it's different. It's
not the United States. And as our favorite sheriff
here in Polk County would say, people must have
grits for brains if they think they're going
to go to the Bahamas and violate the law, because
the Bahamas doesn't have a Fourth Amendment.
It doesn't have a Fifth Amendment. It doesn't
have any Bill of Rights. Right. So you're going
to go to the Bahamas and violate the law? You
must have grits for brains. Yeah. Good chance
you're going to get arrested, right? Right. And
what I love about the Bahamas, you realize there's
no statute of limitations on fisheries charges?
Wow. No statute of limitations. So listeners
understand what a statute of limitation is. Basically,
in most laws, there's a time in which law enforcement
has to bring a case to charges. So it might be
kind of typical statute of limitations. It might
be two years in the federal realm. It's usually
five years. So what that means is the government
has five years or two years, whatever the statute
of limitation is, to bring charges against an
individual. And if the bad guy can get away with
it long enough and push that statute of limitations,
they actually can't be charged. So certain crimes
like murder in the United States have no statute
of limitations, but most crimes do have something.
But yeah, so Bahamas has no statute of limitations.
So it might be five, 10 years down the road if
they develop a case against you, they could charge
you, huh? So think about that picture you posted
on Facebook 10 years ago. Yeah, true. Of you
committing some crime down in Bahamas, fishing
violation in the Bahamas. Could come back to
haunt you. The Bahamas is very, very protective
of their natural resources. And I got to tell
you, some of the people that we're working with
there are the most dedicated officers I've ever
seen throughout the world. And we develop a close
relationship with them. And so we kind of provide
nicknames to some of the people that we work
with. Some of the nicknames we gave to you, Ed,
back when you were working. Which were all good,
George. All of my nicknames were good. But one
of the fisheries officers we work with over there,
Ladina Pelicanos, we've nicknamed her the tiger
shark. Nice. Because if you break the law, she's
going to eat you. Nice. And one of the prosecutors
from the attorney general's office, Miss Kosha,
we call her the honey badger. She's sweet, but
the meanest animal in the world. There's a customs
officer there named Frisco McKay. He's the Bahamian
equivalent of Hulk Hogan. He scares me and I'm
his friend. But we put all of these people together
to work Operation Red Dawn. Nice. And basically
how it started, there's a, they're charter boats.
What it is, it's a charter boat investigations.
And so you have some charter boats from Florida
that are going over the Bahamas. and they're
violating the law. Now, the Bahamas, like I said,
is very protective of their natural resources,
and so they have… there's permits required to
run a foreign charter in the Bahamas. Your vessel
has to be inspected. You obviously have to declare
your passengers, and you have to pay taxes because
you're generating a business income in the Bahamas.
Well, as you know, there's always going to be
somebody that's going to want to circumvent the
law. And so there was one particular vessel.
It was called the highly migratory. Isn't that
it? And this is a US vessel. US vessel based
out of South Florida. What an outpropos name,
right? Yes. And you know, let me stop you for
just a second. So listeners and watchers have
a clear understanding of what you're talking
about when you say charter. These are basically
people who own pretty long, I mean, they're fishing
boats, right? Like you might see somebody go
out. off the coast of Florida, sport fishing
for marlin or some other kind of big game fish.
But they're charging people in the US, US citizens,
to go all the way to the Bahamas and fish in
Bahamian waters, right? Exactly. That's what
you can picture is if you want to go on a fishing
trip and you go to Florida and you encounter
some Advertisement or somebody on the dock who's
advertising that they'll take you out to the
Bahamas to fish and you how much are they paying
these guys to go fishing per day? Yeah, they're
Five to ten thousand a day Whoa charging for
a charter fee So big money involved here. Yes,
and this directly competes against the legal
businesses that get the permits Right. Okay and
directly competes against the Bahamian businesses
that are trying to operate legally. So not only
is it circumventing Bahama's ability to kind
of manage its own fishery, but it's damaging
Bahama's charter fishermen's business, right?
Yes. And violating the laws over the bag limit
violations, taking of unlawful species. Gotcha.
OK. Well, what brought this case to attention?
How did they – yeah, I was just going to say,
how did they figure out this was a problem? So,
the vessel was in the Bahamas fishing, and the
vessel was approached by the Royal Bahamas Defense
Force, which is the equivalent of the Coast Guard.
Okay. And the captain, who was very arrogant,
first refused to stop for the Defense Force.
And so they trailed him for a while, eventually
convinced him to stop. Again, these are people
that are swinging M16s. So what were you thinking?
Exactly. I was going to say, you're going to
get a shot across the bow pretty quick, right?
And so the vessel gets boarded and the captain
starts berating the defense force officer and
he films it. Films him giving this officer a
hard time. and posts it on Facebook. Here, I
don't have to listen to the Bahamian authorities.
I'll show them. Right. Arrogance on display.
Yeah. So he brings attention to himself. And
so during one of our training sessions, this
was brought up about this person that they suspected
was violating the law. Well, if you look at how
you enforce or how to effect an enforcement on
a charter violation, I mean, there's certain
elements you have to prove. You know, you got
to prove that transfer of money. You got to prove
that there was a higher fishing for hire. Well,
these vessels that are breaking the law, they
coach their clients and they say, Hey, if we
ever get stopped, we're just friends fishing.
And so proving those cases can be very difficult.
Right. And so this particular case was brought
up. And so we, as a team in the Bahamas, we targeted
this specific investigation. So, when you start
pulling the records, you know, when someone checks
into the Bahamas, they go through immigration.
Right. Well, this individual had been in the
Bahamas 18 times in the last three years. So,
obviously, it's a red flag. He's traveling over
there quite a bit. And, of course, license inspections,
he had purchased no foreign charter license,
no business licenses. vessels never been inspected
for safety protocols is all required, you know,
by Bahamian laws. So we began an investigation.
So our role as, you know, as a consultant is,
you know, to work with the local authorities
to mentor them on how to do high -tech investigations.
Yeah, because you have no authority to do anything
in the Bahamas. You're just an advisor, basically,
yeah? Correct, correct. And so we walk them through
the steps on how you'll do, you know, a thorough
involved investigation. Right. And so, of course,
we know all the websites, all the social media
sites in Florida. So, we start doing searches
on this and start producing evidence on Instagram,
Facebook of where this guy's posting pictures
of all the fish that he's catching in the Bahamas.
And, of course, you go to his website and he's
openly advertising charter trips, and he's unlicensed.
Right. So, I mean, it wasn't… a really hard decision
of who to target. So we set up an investigation.
We created a task force bringing in representatives
from each of the agencies that would be involved,
you know, Fisheries, Defense Force, the Bahamian
Police, and Customs. And so we organized a task
force, putting it together, and we started working
the investigation, started documenting evidence,
walking them through how you would do an undercover
investigation, how to reach out online, how to
collect evidence, how to preserve that evidence,
and basically just walked in and helped, assisted
with an investigation. And so a charter trip
was ultimately booked with some Bahamian officers.
We coached them on undercover tactics, evidence
collection, the tracking of the vessel, because
you're going to have to prove it's in Bahamian
waters. Exactly. and put this case together,
and then they did a takedown. Like I said, Customs
Officer McKay just don't want to get in his way.
And now, unlike that first encounter where the
charter boat captain was so arrogant and the
clients were also lying in on the lie, now the
difference between that situation and this situation
is Bahamian authorities know for a fact that
they're lying, right? And they can prove it.
So it's a whole different ball game than them
being kind of on their back heels, not able to
prove or disprove what the crew and the paying
clients are telling them about what they're doing
or why, right? And the customers were actually
cautioned by the vessel captain. on what to say
if they were ever stopped. Wow. Coached, really,
huh? Coached. Absolutely. Coached about what
to say if they were ever stopped. And what was
just hilarious is when the takedown team came
in to make the stop, the captain grabs the customers
and tells them, remember, don't say anything
about this being a charter because charters are
illegal. And so just beautiful evidence to prove
a case. Awesome. And yeah, so he's telling basically
undercover officers, hey, don't forget the story.
So you got to lock down that there's intent there,
there's pre -planning, there's conspiracy going
on. It's beautiful. Nice. And this poor captain,
again, grits for brains. So the Bahamas has specific
laws. And you're a guest in their country. You
should follow their laws. And so, of course,
they have bag limits, size limits, license requirements,
but they also have gear requirements. So, for
example, you can't use scuba gear to harvest
any natural resources in the Bahamas. You can
do free diving, but you can't use scuba gear.
Bahamas is very serious about firearms. Now,
in the United States, we love our guns. But the
Bahamas has firearms restrictions, and you have
to register any guns that you bring into the
Bahamas. Now, I say that because poor Gritz for
brains was carrying a concealed pistol when he
stopped by the Bahamian authorities. It's like,
how? You just can't make this stuff up. Unbelievable.
And that's probably, yeah, that might be more
serious than the fishing violation, right? Yes,
very so. And again, getting into the prohibited
equipment, they don't allow scuba gear. They
don't allow bang sticks. And so when the vessel
was searched, of course, there's a bang stick
on board. The captain's carrying a concealed
gun. There's ammunition on board. And you had
all these other violations that they were charged
with. Explain a bang stick to listeners who might
not know what that is. So a bank stick is a device
that you use, scuba divers will use underwater.
It's got a bullet on the end of the long pole,
whether it's a shotgun shell or whether it's
a pistol shell, you know, pistol cartridge. And
you use it to, you know, to shoot fish underwater.
And so it's commonly used to shoot sharks. That's
the most common use in the saltwater environment,
shooting sharks with it. Well, sharks are protected
in the Bahamas. And so why do they have this
illegal device on board to begin with kind of
leads you to believe that they're violating other
laws also. You bet. So they were arrested that
day. Nice. You don't want to sit in a Bahamian
jail, believe me. Is this true in many, many
jails outside the United States? It's not a resort.
It's not a resort. Exactly. And of course, again,
this is a different country, so the procedures
are different. You know, so, uh, these poor individuals,
they sat in a Bahamian jail for a week. Whoa.
Before first appearance. Wow. And, and so, um,
the case was quickly, really quickly solved.
You know, in the United States, a case like this
would drag on for two years. Uh, Hamas, it's
over within six months. You're sentenced. Interesting.
And so in, in this particular case, um, There
was over $300 ,000 in fines. Nice. That's huge.
Yes, huge, huge. Plus, there was a three -year
ban. These individuals now have a three -year
ban from fishing in the Bahamas. Okay. That's
also huge. That's going to cut into their business
quite a bit. Yes. So the Bahamas takes the protection
of their resources very serious. Do they have
forfeiture? Was there any risk they were going
to lose their boat? Well, the boat was seized.
It was held for about six months. The forfeiture
proceedings are still going on on the vessel.
But the Bahamian courts allowed them to place
a bond. They had to place a $100 ,000 bond on
the vessel in lieu of the forfeiture proceedings.
And so that's still occurring. So there's an
opportunity they're going to lose the boat. Wow.
OK. That's good. This is a half a million dollar
vessel. So by posting the bond, they're allowed
to take the vessel. Wait a minute. Let me back
up a little bit. Did these guys end up going
to jail in Bahamas, other than spending their
time in jail prior to their trial? Oh, yeah.
They spent a week in jail prior to the trial.
Now, they were not sentenced to jail. They were
sentenced to a fine. Got it. Now, if they don't
pay the fine, there is a jail sentence associated
with it. Got it. OK. And then they pay this bond
on the boat so they can take the boat. But if
the forfeiture procedures are successful and
the Bahamian government seizes the vessel or
forfeits it, they'll have to either return it
or forfeit their bond. Is that the idea? Correct.
Correct. Gotcha. And this was a vessel called
the highly migratory, right? Yes. Which is kind
of apropos. And how many times did they conclude
that this vessel had been operating commercially,
likely commercially, in Bahama waters? Well,
we know from just records that they were in the
Bahamas over 18 times. Yeah. OK. So quite a few.
Yeah. Now proving, of course, proving those cases
would be difficult. Yeah. But likely, right?
I mean, it's likely they were violating at that
time, too. Well, and remember, there's no statute
of limitations. Right, exactly. So whatever can
be proved in the future is good to go. How many
days do these trips last? So where do they come
out of? Miami or at least the ports on the East
Coast there? Yeah, they'll come off the East
Coast of Florida. They'll travel over the Bahamas.
Depending on the client, how long he books a
trip. Now, this particular trip was only one
day. OK. But the cost of the trip was $5 ,000.
Right. So typically, though, would you go and
come back in a day, or would fishermen stay more
than one day? Depending on what the client wanted
to do, if he wanted to book a three -day trip,
it would be a three -day charter. Kind of funny,
hilarious, the charter fee was paid at the end
of the charter. on this particular fishing trip.
And of course, the money was seized back by the
Bahamian authorities. Nice. OK, good. So they
didn't get their charter fee. Nice. OK. What
happens to the clients that paid for this trip
that were in the know and coached and agreed
to be coached? What happened to them? Well, these
clients were Bahamian officers. Oh, right, right,
right. Were there cases made against any of the
previous customers, or is that still a possibility?
It's still being pursued. Again, there's no statute
of limitations. And so when you enter the Bahamas,
you're going through immigration and you fill
out your passenger list. So, of course, the Bahamian
officers now know all the passengers from the
previous trips. You bet. Yeah. And so, yeah.
So, I mean, this case can go on for quite a while.
So on the one that they were the undercovers
were Bahamian officers I thought maybe they were
just a few of the one or two of the officers
were undercover among more than that Number of
clients like I thought maybe there might be five
or six clients on the boat and two of them under
covers But it's for that trip. It was booked
by undercover people That's sure and think about
that and you think about an undercover operation
that we run in the US You want to be able to
tightly control all aspects of it? Right. And
so this is one of the training techniques that
we taught them is to have absolute control. So
you don't want any other civilians on board the
boat. Gotcha. Gotcha. And so they paid the full
charter fee in order to control the operation.
Good. Yeah, it's funny. I did some undercover
work with NOAA on a fishing boat that was a little
bit bigger than I think what we're talking about
here, operating off the coast of California.
And there were maybe 20 clients on the boat.
So there were two undercover officers, me and
another, on the boat. And it does create some
real safety challenges, because you're out there
with 18 other people who probably would not be
too happy to know there were two undercover law
enforcement officers in their midst. And everybody
there's got a knife at a minimum, if not some
weapons. So yeah, very good. If you can control
for that. That was smart. Very good. So that
case, Operation Red Dawn 1, only involved this
one fishing vessel, the highly migratory. Is
that right? Right. Right. And so it was so successful,
why not try another one? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
Start deterring people, right? So along comes
Red Dawn 2. OK. So again, another charter vessel,
which complaints had been received by the Bahamian
authorities. This first Red Dawn operation with
the highly migratory, it generated so much publicity
that the complaint lines just started lighting
up. Excellent. And so another complaint comes
in on another vessel that's operating and doing
the same thing. And so the team got back together
again, put another operation together. And this
was just in October. This is just last month.
And so there was another arrest made. Now that
rest is still pending and hadn't been sentenced
yet. Right. But just like the first one, it'll
be over in six months. And similar setup. Yeah,
they're doing some undercover work to figure
out what's going on. The beauty about this is
that some people might say, oh, well, the publicity
is a bad thing, right? Because it's going to
warn people. But that's kind of the job, or that's
the goal, is to deter crime and prevent crime
from happening in the first place. So yeah, while
it's fun to be a law enforcement officer and
catch lots of people, if you're not seeing the
crime go down or disappear, that's kind of defeating
the goal, right? So the publicity will be good.
Because now these charter boat captains operating
out of the US, they're going to have to be, if
they're planning to go do something illegal,
they're going to have to be much, much, much
More careful and wary and much more likely to
do it because they just don't know Right now
that they know that Bahamas is paying attention
It's likely to deter future crime, right? And
that's the goal. Yeah Compliance and the protection
of the resource Exactly. It's not just to keep
catching a lot of people. It's then that and
that's where the publicity There's a there's
a strategic point where the publicity becomes
very important because you want people to know
that crime fighters are out there and be – if
you violate the law, you're going to come across
a crime fighter and they're going to hold you
accountable, right? Right. And another operation
that we're doing there, we taught an internet
crimes class to some of the Bahamas officers.
Nice. Excellent. And you showed them the tactics
of working crime on the internet. They're having
a blast. Excellent. So all of these people that
are posting… They're fishing pictures from the
Bahamas. You know, the bagel and a lobster in
the Bahamas is 10. And you've got pictures of
people with 150 lobster on their boat. Perfect.
And again, I mean, they're just having a blast
working these cases now. Awesome. Are you taking
a few lessons learned from Operation Wild Web?
Exactly. Very good. All right. That's how it
makes me very happy, George, to know that. That's
very good. That makes me very happy. You know,
so you mentioned lobsters. I think when we're
talking about these fishing vessels, in my mind,
I'm thinking, OK, marlin for sure, sailfish maybe,
maybe sharks. What other species are being targeted?
Lobsters, I assume. Yeah? Yeah, lobster, queen
conch, wahoo. You've got a lot of pelagic species.
You know, your marlin, your sailfish, some really,
really high -dollar fishing species that are
in the Bahamas that are targeted. And so they're
very fortunate, very rich in natural resources.
And the whole lobster issue, too, is interesting
because there's a lobster fishery off California.
And the resource issue there is there's a temptation
to take a lot of them, right? And so, like you
said, if the limit in Bahamas is, what, 10 and
people are taking pictures of themselves with
100, that's That's a gross over limit is how
we would describe that in the biz. And the issue
with these larger fish, the pelagic species you
mentioned, they're migratory. They move around.
And so taking them out of certain ecosystems
could harm breeding and feeding in other places
of the world. So you might be impacting populations
around the world. And of course, these are predatory
fish, which puts them higher on the food chain,
which means there's fewer of them. And so that's
a real conservation issue for Bahamas if you
start taking too many of these larger predatory
fish. It could have cascading impacts, right?
The Bahamas is only 50 miles off the coast of
Florida. Right. And so what happens in the Bahamas
affects Florida. That is an excellent point,
right? That's a really excellent point because
it's all the same waters in there. You know,
thinking as a Fed, did you guys pursue this with
the US attorney's office in Miami? Because in
my mind, I'm thinking Lacey Act violation, felony
Lacey Act. If the clients in the US are paying
$5 ,000 and knowing that they're going to go
over there and be expected to lie, that's a classic
Lacey Act violation, felony. Or maybe you can't
talk about that, but is the US attorney looped
in there in Miami? Yeah, let's not talk about
that. OK. All right. Well, never mind. Maybe
we should bleep that part out, George. Anyway,
another good thing for people to understand is
if people in the US leave the US to commit crimes
overseas, violate another country's law, and
they pay US dollars to go do that, whether it's
fishing in the Bahamas or hunting in Africa or
uh... you know hunting in australia to zealand
whatever if they know in advance they're booking
basically some type of illegal activity they're
using u .s. dollars to pay for it they're actually
committing crime in the united states under the
lacy act and it's that it's that act of paying
to go do something illegal overseas and i think
We're unique in the world in that regard, in
that the United States takes a very strong interest
in helping other countries protect their public
safety, their environment, whatever it is. And
yeah, an American citizen who travels in international
commerce to commit a crime can very quickly find
themselves in a US jail, as well as that dank
dark foreign jail, right? Yeah, and think about
that concept. Yeah. Because in you know in some
of these countries that the fines may be very
minimal Mm -hmm cost to do in business. It's
part of my my tourist trip Mm -hmm, but when
you start partnering when the United States starts
partnering with these other countries And they're
able to affect these charges back in the United
States that are significant That's what's gonna
stop the crime. You bet. Yeah Yeah, and it provides
the foreign countries with some very valuable
US assistance, right? So like, for example, when
I was in Africa, I can't tell you how many times
I assisted foreign nations in their investigations
of US citizens who had come over to wherever,
South Africa, Zambia, Zimbabwe, to illegally
hunt some animal, whether it's an elephant or
antelope or whatever. All of a sudden now, The
thinly stretched Zambian wildlife authorities
now have the assistance of a US Fish and Wildlife
Service special agent in helping them make the
case against a foreign national, which is difficult.
Because a foreign national, this boat's name
is highly migratory. The problem is, highly migratory
can zip into Bahamian waters, fish, and zip out.
And once it's out of Bahamian waters, there's
not a lot they can do to. check that unless they
have cooperation from us. So pretty cool. Exactly.
Very cool. And you know from working internationally
that these developing countries, they don't have
a lot of money to invest in their enforcement
programs. Right. And so, you know, these are
just tactics that we can use to help them in
their enforcement. Exactly. Because as you know,
like many of the officers in these developing
countries, many of these fisheries officers don't
have guns. Their agency can't afford it. And
so they're out there patrolling and they're unarmed.
You know, many of these developing countries,
they don't have patrol boats for the officers.
Or they don't, as we were talking about before
we went live here, they don't have fuel. They
might have the boat, but they don't have the
fuel. Yeah. Yeah. And so they have to calculate,
do they have enough fuel to go out? And come
back. Or do they have enough fuel to go out and
then potentially get in a pursuit and track somebody
down and then get back, right? So you have to
have enough fuel on board to account for the
unknowns you're going to encounter that day as
well. Yeah. And we don't think about these issues
in the States. You and me, working for US Fish
and Wildlife or Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation
Commission, you just fill up your boat when you
need to go out. And it's not really a concern
for you. But some of these little things are
very important, like bullets, fuel, maintenance.
That might be a real issue for a foreign law
enforcement officer. Let me tell you what I used
to tell African officers and see if this resonates
with you. I bet it will. I used to remind them,
because a lot of times they would look to the
US and say, wow, you guys have some amazing toys.
How do we get a drone? Or how do we get night
vision goggles? And I always used to remind them
that you can have all the fancy tools in the
world, but if you're not a good detective, they
don't mean anything. And so I used to remind
them. I was like, look, detectives have been
catching people for hundreds of years. And formally,
since the first professional police forces, it's
been about 100. 25 years -ish. They've been catching
people just by doing good old -fashioned detective
work. And bring that to bear. Bring honest, hardcore,
good old -fashioned detective work to bear on
your problems. You probably don't need night
vision. You know what I mean? Exactly. Exactly.
And that's what you're doing. What I love about
what you're doing with the Bahamas is you're
not coming in and saying, hey. Here we are, a
bunch of former command staff from different
agencies in the states. We know what we're doing.
Let us take over. You're coming in, and basically,
you're backstopping them. You're empowering them.
You're basically saying, hey, here's some ideas
of things we have done in the states successfully.
What do you think? And it's up to them if they
take it or not. And they're running with it.
And then it's their thing, which is that's the
way to do it, man. That is really the way to
do it. Exactly. Because you're working your way
into obsolescence, which is right, right? Now,
Bahamas shouldn't need you too much in the future,
right? Or they don't need you as much. Well,
and there's plenty of other areas in the world
to work. Exactly. You move on to the next place.
That's why I love these two operations. I think
they're just great because it's going to empower
Bahamas to do more and more in the future. Very
cool. Yeah. Boy, we've really blazed through
this topic, George. What else do you want to
talk about on this? Oh, wow. Well, I just finished
up a trip in the Philippines, which was very,
very interesting. So we were working some details
there on dynamite fishing. Can you imagine it's
still going on in the world, dynamite fishing?
Yeah. Yeah. And that may still happen in the
Caribbean as well. I'm not sure. Are they, when
you say dynamite fishing, are they targeting
fish species or coral? Well, they're targeting
fish species. I see. But they're blowing everything
up. Right. Right. And these are fish species
that end up in the food chain for us, or are
they? OK. Yeah, food chain. You mentioned to
me, too, the other day that there's still some
cyanide fishing going on. Exactly. Yeah, that's
another illegal technique that's done throughout
the Philippines and also in the Caribbean. So
explain how that works. How are they using cyanide
to fish? Well, they're injecting these poison
chemicals into the water. It stuns the fish.
And then they collect the fish and then take
them to the market. Well, the fish have poison
on them. Exactly. And who knows what else they
killed that they didn't collect, right? It's
cyanide into the water. And what's the purpose
behind that, to just get as many fish as you
can in a shorter period as you can without much
work? Easier method to collect fish. You throw
a stick of dynamite in the water, and now you've
got a couple hundred pounds of fish floating.
Not to mention, it blows up the coral reefs,
and nothing's going to live thereafter. Right?
Yeah, it is hard. That stuff I remember hearing
about 30 years ago, when I was a much younger
man, I thought that was a problem. And it's shocking
to hear that it's still going on. Yeah. And people
might say, well, how? How are they not getting
caught? But then you just go back to, if you're
in the Philippines or Indonesia, you're talking
about it. nations that basically are made up
of thousands of islands, the Bahamas. It's made
up of thousands of islands. It's a very, very
daunting task to patrol that area and to not
only find those people, but to promptly respond
to those types of crimes in progress, right?
Right. And so think about it from our experience,
you know, from an investigative standpoint, you
know, how would you work blast fishing? And so
there's more than just Patrol techniques there's
investigative techniques So, you know the fishing
villages where the the blast fishermen are coming
from So if you identify who the fishermen are
through intelligence Throw a GPS tracker on the
boat And then you can follow the fishermen and
then when he commits the violation You've identified
you know, you've apprehended your target, you
know, so we try to pursue this from an investigative
standpoint Uh, you know, go into the fishing
villages at nighttime with, uh, swabs to detect
explosives on the boats, run a bomb drug through
the village. Exactly. Yeah. Just go in there
with a bomb detecting dog or check the boats.
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, we
just try to think outside the box in enforcement.
What do you run into? Like say, let's talk about
trackers for a second. You mentioned, you know,
It must be kind of daunting to keep track of
what the foreign laws are, because, of course,
in the US, you'd have to have a search warrant
to put a tracker on a vehicle or a moving vessel
like that. I know you do on cars. Do you have
to have a warrant to put it on a boat? I assume
you do. Well, you know I'm laughing, because
there's no Fourth Amendment in some of these
other countries. Yeah. Yeah, you mentioned that.
That's what made me think of it. But at the same
time, when you go in here to consult or to provide
that backstopping, you kind of have to know,
right? Or at least you have to consult them on
what are your laws related to this, right? How
do you - Yeah, so to kind of step back, when
we go into a new country and we're working a
new project area, and actually, I'm doing a new
project now in South of May in Principe, Africa.
But when we go into these countries, we do an
assessment. So we look at their agency, we look
at their law enforcement programs. Do they have
equipment? Do they have personnel? And so we
do an assessment. We look at their laws and their
policies. Are the laws enforceable? Do they have
policies to address pursuits, use of force, all
the things that we take for granted in our agencies?
So we do an assessment. What's the funding? Do
they have adequate funding for their agencies?
Training programs, community involvement. So
we'll put together an assessment based on our
analysis, and then we make recommendations. And
so these recommendations will include training
programs. It will include purchasing of equipment.
And so we take this knowledge, and we try to
develop programs to build the capacity of these
nations. Right. A lot of it's investigative.
Where we take it for advantage, we've been doing
investigations for years. Well, many of these
other countries, they struggle with just going
on patrol. Yeah, right. So we bring in, hey,
there's a better way, there's a less expensive
way to do this and be more effective. Let's talk
about, yeah, back to the GPS trackers. These
countries don't have a lot of the hurdles that
we have in the United States, right? Okay now
granted we created these hurdles, you know, the
reason you got to have You know a court order
for a GPS tracker was because of the abuses that
were going on exactly, right? You know, so we
tried to you know consult with these countries
don't make these mistakes Because bad cases make
bad case law. That's right. Plus, of course,
like you mentioned we have the Fourth Amendment,
which is kind of unique Although some countries,
surprisingly, have very strong laws protecting
that type of right to privacy. Botswana, for
example, very strong in that regard. So there
are some countries out there that are a little
more strict than us. There's countries, like
for instance, one of the things you and I were
comfortable with in our careers was If we were
interviewing a suspect, it's totally permissible
in the United States to lie to the suspect, to
tell them, to hint to them that we might know
more than we do or to say, you know, we have
witnesses that put you at the location just to
see how they'll react, right? But there are countries
where that's completely illegal, where the law
enforcement officers cannot lie to. to suspects
they're interrogating or even just interviewing.
So that's something to be cognizant of. What
has been your experience working overseas with
any corruption issues? It happens. And you do
see some corruption in some of these countries.
That is one of our teaching topics is ethics.
I mean, we're pushing ethics. It may take 20
years to fix it, but you got to start somewhere.
Excellent. OK, good. And so, yeah, there's instance.
And I'll tell you a little story when I was in
Africa. I'm on the way home. I've taught for
the week. I'm on the way to the airport. And
I had heard about some corrupt police officers.
So it's kind of in the back of my mind that something
like this may eventually happen. But I'm on the
way to the airport. And I get pulled over by
one of the local police officers. Now, I haven't
done anything wrong. Right? There's a lot of
random police checkpoints throughout Africa.
Every country in Africa. Yeah. And so the officer
doesn't speak English. He speaks French. I don't
speak French. So we're translating on my phone.
Google Translate. Interesting. OK. So the officer
tells me he's taking me to the police station.
I owe $48 ,000. And I explained to him, no, I'm
on the way to the airport. He says well, you
know how this works you pay me on the scene.
Mm -hmm So, I mean we're doing all this through
the translation app. Mm -hmm. And so I'm supposed
to board a plane in two hours, right? and so
You know, I still you know, I still have you
know My law enforcement credentials and so I
pulled out my badge and said policia policia
Americana policia nice Officer takes off running,
leaves. What? Really? Now, it could have gone
either way. I mean, he could have loaded me up
and taken me to jail. You bet. Or I guess he
chose that he needed to go extort somebody else.
That is a great story. And it's so typical of
what happens when you encounter corrupt police
officers in different countries around the world.
And they're everywhere. We even have corruption
in the US. here, too. Of course, what I always
say is it's not, corruption's going to occur
because you've got human beings in law enforcement
positions, right? The famous Jack Webb character
from Dragnet back in the 60s said, he always
said that the biggest problem with law enforcement
is that law enforcement officers are human beings.
And so you can't be, the issue is not, does corruption
occur? The issue is, what do you do when you
find it? Yes. And do you handle it? Do you make
an example out of people? Do you hold them accountable?
Or do you just say, well, that's how things are.
And if you're in the latter, your country is
going to go to hell in a handbasket pretty quick.
If you deal with it, you can preserve your law
and order in that country. What I always found,
see if you share this experience, but when I
worked with foreign law enforcement officers
in countries that might have a higher reputation
for corruption. My philosophy was it takes too
much energy to kind of suss out who's likely
to be corrupt and who's not. Sometimes you know.
Sometimes you just aren't sure. So what I did
was I gave them the benefit of the doubt. You're
a police officer. I'm going to trust that you're
going to do the right thing until you prove otherwise
to me. And I'd give them that trust. And what
I always found was even sometimes when I suspected
an officer might be corrupt, I found that sometimes
just working with me or working with another
US law enforcement officer, say from FBI or Homeland
Security, in that particular case we were working
on with them, they would not be corrupt because,
God forbid, they did not want to get caught by
the Americans being corrupt because it would
be horribly shameful. And they want to work with
Americans as peers. And so I found sometimes
you might have an officer who's otherwise totally
corrupt, but you can trust them on this case
because they know you're watching. Yeah. And
another great, great model that we like to use
is identify those shining stars, young officers
that will make a difference 10 years from now.
Right. Because they'll be in command staff. They're
not going to tolerate these discrepancies and
this corruption. Exactly. And you can do that.
You can build that kind of pride in their work.
It sounds like you're doing exactly that in the
Bahamas, which is great. You're identifying the
superstars and helping them succeed. What do
you think the future is for Bahamas on this issue
in dealing with illegal transitory commercial
fishing vessels coming in out of their waters?
Yeah, they're going to be very effective at it.
They've got the tools now. They've got the techniques.
They've got the experience. They're going to
be very effective in curtailing this activity.
And it sounds like there are judicial systems
on top of it too, right? They understand the
significance and the importance, and they're
dishing out some fairly good penalties against
people. Oh, the judicial system, their leadership,
yes, they're all on board. Excellent. That's
good. Sometimes, of course, countries, the law
enforcement understands the conservation issue
or the importance, but the judiciary might not.
So they hand out weaker sentences. Well, this
is a great story, and it's unfolding. So listeners,
watchers, if you Google Operation Red Dawn 1,
2, you can read the news stories about it. And
you'll see this is still in operations that are.
ongoing unfolding in the news as we speak so
there's probably more to come certainly on operation
red dawn to george fascinating i'm so glad you
came on to talk about this particular issue since
it is in the news right now it does involve americans
and involves fish species that are important
to americans important to bohemians and obviously
you know we have territories in the caribbean
so we have a very shared interest with the other
nations in the Caribbean. So appreciate the work
you're doing. It's amazing. Good job. Oh, it's
a blast. We're having fun doing it. Really great.
And I assume you'll continue working. You're
working with Wild Aid you mentioned, right? Yes.
Yeah. And you have other ongoing projects with
them. So we'll be watching for other George Wilson
news in the future. All right, my friend, thank
you so much for joining us. I appreciate it.
We'll have you on again to talk about Operation
Wild Web and many other things. Thanks for your
time. Thank you, Ed. You bet. All right, everybody.
Take care. We'll see you next time. Nature's
Secret Service is written and produced by me,
Ed Newcomer, and is co -produced by the DHTV
team here at California State University, Dominguez
Hills. Follow us on social media and connect
with us online at naturessecretservice .com.