WEBVTT 00:00:00.140 --> 00:00:02.540 If you want to learn more about the topics of 00:00:02.540 --> 00:00:06.219 today's episode, visit the podcast website at 00:00:06.219 --> 00:00:09.339 naturessecretservice .com. Thanks for listening. 00:00:34.319 --> 00:00:37.899 OK, people, listen up. Here we go. This is Nature's 00:00:37.899 --> 00:00:39.659 Secret Service, the podcast that puts you in 00:00:39.659 --> 00:00:41.659 the room with the men and women of wildlife law 00:00:41.659 --> 00:00:44.740 enforcement. I'm your host, Ed Newcomer. And 00:00:44.740 --> 00:00:47.759 I want to welcome you to the show. We're in season 00:00:47.759 --> 00:00:50.640 two now. And one of the things that I keep being 00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:53.100 told I should do is figure out ways to engage 00:00:53.100 --> 00:00:57.320 with my listeners and my watchers. So I'm trying. 00:00:57.460 --> 00:00:59.340 I'm doing my best trying to make the podcast 00:00:59.340 --> 00:01:02.299 grow. So I'll tell you what we'll do. Anybody 00:01:02.299 --> 00:01:04.340 who's watching this podcast knows that I'm working 00:01:04.340 --> 00:01:07.180 on a mustache. So if you like the mustache, go 00:01:07.180 --> 00:01:09.780 onto YouTube, go onto our social media pages 00:01:09.780 --> 00:01:12.599 and just make a comment. Mustache equals yes 00:01:12.599 --> 00:01:16.079 or mustache equals no. And just like the fabulous 00:01:16.079 --> 00:01:18.859 Mr. Fox, I appreciate your advice and I value 00:01:18.859 --> 00:01:22.060 your input, but I'll probably ignore it. All 00:01:22.060 --> 00:01:25.239 right, our guest this week is George Wilson, 00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:28.739 a former officer and lieutenant with the Florida 00:01:28.739 --> 00:01:32.109 Fish and Wildlife. Conservation Commission, get 00:01:32.109 --> 00:01:35.909 this, he's got a 36 -year career with Florida 00:01:35.909 --> 00:01:37.989 Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission, which 00:01:37.989 --> 00:01:41.069 is amazing. Ended his career as a lieutenant 00:01:41.069 --> 00:01:45.849 and made his way up to overseeing the statewide 00:01:45.849 --> 00:01:48.090 investigative unit for the state of Florida. 00:01:48.709 --> 00:01:53.129 That may basically put him with oversight of 00:01:53.129 --> 00:01:55.329 their surveillance unit, their internet crimes 00:01:55.329 --> 00:01:57.930 unit, their computer forensics unit, and their 00:01:57.930 --> 00:02:01.159 covert operations unit. Really impressive guy. 00:02:01.400 --> 00:02:03.799 I had opportunities to work with George during 00:02:03.799 --> 00:02:07.439 my own career and was always impressed. We always 00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:09.460 got along well. And we actually accomplished 00:02:09.460 --> 00:02:12.439 a hell of a lot of good things together. And 00:02:12.439 --> 00:02:14.000 so George is going to be back on the show because 00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:15.819 we got a lot of stuff we want to talk to George 00:02:15.819 --> 00:02:18.560 about. But George Wilson, thanks so much for 00:02:18.560 --> 00:02:21.759 being on the show. Hey, Ed. Thanks for inviting 00:02:21.759 --> 00:02:24.000 me. We're going to have some more good times. 00:02:24.340 --> 00:02:27.000 And I got to say, the mustache, it's a keeper. 00:02:27.080 --> 00:02:30.740 It makes you look younger. Wow, younger. Despite 00:02:30.740 --> 00:02:33.340 the fact that when we were first getting warmed 00:02:33.340 --> 00:02:35.680 up today, the first thing you said to me was, 00:02:36.120 --> 00:02:40.900 what's with all the gray? All right. Well, we'll 00:02:40.900 --> 00:02:43.560 put George down that George is a mustache equals 00:02:43.560 --> 00:02:46.780 yes. All right. Appreciate your input, George. 00:02:49.060 --> 00:02:52.199 Hey, you and I both ended up kind of retiring 00:02:52.199 --> 00:02:55.000 around the same time, I think within maybe a 00:02:55.000 --> 00:02:58.740 year or two of each other. But since your retirement 00:02:58.740 --> 00:03:02.539 with Florida, you have stayed in the mix. You've 00:03:02.539 --> 00:03:06.180 still been involved in helping to deal with wildlife 00:03:06.180 --> 00:03:08.560 crime issues, pretty serious wildlife crime issues. 00:03:09.219 --> 00:03:11.479 Do you want to explain what you've been doing 00:03:11.479 --> 00:03:13.259 since and who you've been working for? And then 00:03:13.259 --> 00:03:16.860 we'll jump in on a really interesting topic that 00:03:16.860 --> 00:03:19.699 is very topical and in the news right now. But 00:03:19.699 --> 00:03:21.240 yeah, tell us what you've been doing since you 00:03:21.240 --> 00:03:24.330 retired. Yeah, Ed, I mean, it's hard to get it 00:03:24.330 --> 00:03:26.409 out of your system. You know, you work for so 00:03:26.409 --> 00:03:31.189 many years, but after I retired, I connected 00:03:31.189 --> 00:03:34.250 with a group of individuals that are all retired 00:03:34.250 --> 00:03:38.159 fish and wildlife officers. They're former chiefs, 00:03:38.300 --> 00:03:40.759 former commanders of some of the largest conservation 00:03:40.759 --> 00:03:43.680 agencies in the United States. And so they have 00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:46.379 a company where we do law enforcement consulting 00:03:46.379 --> 00:03:49.120 in emerging countries, and we try to build a 00:03:49.120 --> 00:03:53.479 capacity of conservation programs in developing 00:03:53.479 --> 00:03:56.900 countries, developing nations. But it's a good 00:03:56.900 --> 00:03:58.840 group of guys. I mean, these guys, like I said, 00:03:58.879 --> 00:04:01.439 are former chiefs and commanders. You know, Bob 00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:05.939 Farrell, Mike Sensi, Greg Cassad. Curtis Brown. 00:04:06.219 --> 00:04:08.139 I mean, these are the guys that developed the 00:04:08.139 --> 00:04:11.099 most advanced law enforcement programs in the 00:04:11.099 --> 00:04:15.960 United States. So like me, they want to stay 00:04:15.960 --> 00:04:19.540 committed to the cause and just kind of spreading 00:04:19.540 --> 00:04:22.240 our knowledge around the world. That's awesome. 00:04:22.420 --> 00:04:24.139 Yeah. Some of the names you mentioned there, 00:04:24.139 --> 00:04:28.629 I recognize. Curtis, I think, was chief of Florida, 00:04:28.689 --> 00:04:30.629 Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission, right? 00:04:30.629 --> 00:04:33.329 And that's a big age. The agency you worked for 00:04:33.329 --> 00:04:36.110 is one of the bigger state wildlife law enforcement 00:04:36.110 --> 00:04:38.649 agencies, I think, in the country. How many sworn 00:04:38.649 --> 00:04:40.930 officers? Like 800, 850, something like that? 00:04:41.189 --> 00:04:44.110 Yeah, it's up to around 900 officers now. That's 00:04:44.110 --> 00:04:46.449 incredible. Most states are lucky if they have 00:04:46.449 --> 00:04:49.990 like 200 or 250 officers for the state. California, 00:04:50.149 --> 00:04:55.900 I think, has about 250 -ish sworn officers. probably 00:04:55.900 --> 00:04:59.519 landmass bigger than Florida. So that's pretty 00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:02.120 amazing. Also, you mentioned Mike Sensei, who 00:05:02.120 --> 00:05:05.740 was the deputy chief in Washington, and I think 00:05:05.740 --> 00:05:07.680 very highly of the Washington Department of Fish 00:05:07.680 --> 00:05:11.459 and Wildlife Police, for sure. And then some 00:05:11.459 --> 00:05:13.579 of the other names you mentioned, what states 00:05:13.579 --> 00:05:16.540 were they from? Do you remember? Bob Farrell 00:05:16.540 --> 00:05:19.500 was the chief there in California for a while. 00:05:19.519 --> 00:05:22.220 Then he went over to Hawaii and was the chief 00:05:22.220 --> 00:05:25.230 over in Hawaii. Right, right. That's awesome. 00:05:25.529 --> 00:05:27.829 Yeah, very cool. And when you do your work, are 00:05:27.829 --> 00:05:32.769 you working through NGOs, or how does it work? 00:05:33.490 --> 00:05:37.009 Yeah, we contract with various NGOs. If you think 00:05:37.009 --> 00:05:39.670 about the NGOs we worked with in the United States, 00:05:40.430 --> 00:05:43.910 the Wild Turkey Federation, Ducks Unlimited, 00:05:44.290 --> 00:05:47.819 the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation. Well, there's 00:05:47.819 --> 00:05:51.839 also international NGOs and nonprofits that are 00:05:51.839 --> 00:05:53.879 working to build the capacity of other nations. 00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:55.839 You know, you've got Wild Aid, which is based 00:05:55.839 --> 00:05:58.680 out of California. The Nature Conservancy, you 00:05:58.680 --> 00:06:01.319 know, based out of Virginia. You got Global Fishing 00:06:01.319 --> 00:06:03.939 Watch, the Wildlife Justice Commission. I mean, 00:06:03.959 --> 00:06:06.600 there's quite a few international organizations. 00:06:07.180 --> 00:06:10.100 Yeah. And so, we consult with various organizations 00:06:10.100 --> 00:06:13.480 to try to build these emerging countries. Yeah, 00:06:13.720 --> 00:06:16.079 and you know, one of the things that we're not 00:06:16.079 --> 00:06:17.920 going to talk about today, you and I, but on 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:19.600 another time when you're going to be on in the 00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:21.699 future, we're going to talk about something you 00:06:21.699 --> 00:06:26.379 and I did together along with a wildlife officer 00:06:26.379 --> 00:06:31.139 here in California named Gary Van Atta, Operation 00:06:31.139 --> 00:06:33.899 Wild Web, which targeted illegal sales on the 00:06:33.899 --> 00:06:35.699 internet. And one of the key aspects of that 00:06:35.699 --> 00:06:40.500 was working very closely with NGOs. which is 00:06:40.500 --> 00:06:42.600 kind of unusual for law enforcement to work so 00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:45.699 closely with NGOs, but it can be incredibly productive 00:06:45.699 --> 00:06:49.500 when you do it right. Very. Yeah. And what we're 00:06:49.500 --> 00:06:51.660 going to talk about today is a perfect example 00:06:51.660 --> 00:06:54.459 of that. And what I love about this is when I 00:06:54.459 --> 00:06:57.819 called you, I had seen this story in the news. 00:06:58.000 --> 00:06:59.639 So what we're talking about today is very timely. 00:06:59.779 --> 00:07:01.480 It's not like we're talking about an old case. 00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:03.439 We're going to talk about something that's kind 00:07:03.439 --> 00:07:07.399 of like unfolding this year and last year. And 00:07:07.399 --> 00:07:11.800 that's Operation Red Dawn 1 and Red Dawn 2, which 00:07:11.800 --> 00:07:16.240 is something you were involved in. And it's been 00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:18.839 in the news. And when I saw it in the news, you 00:07:18.839 --> 00:07:21.639 and I, I think, just happened to be talking. 00:07:22.120 --> 00:07:25.040 And I realized you were involved in it. And I 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:26.500 was like, oh my gosh, George, you got to be on 00:07:26.500 --> 00:07:29.100 the show. We got to talk about this. So tell 00:07:29.100 --> 00:07:33.500 us a little bit about what is Operation Red Dawn 00:07:33.500 --> 00:07:39.529 1 and 2. How did you get involved in it? Yeah. 00:07:39.970 --> 00:07:42.750 Both operations, Red Don 1 and 2, were operations 00:07:42.750 --> 00:07:46.209 conducted in the Bahamas. And so looking at the 00:07:46.209 --> 00:07:48.949 Bahamas, it's a Caribbean nation. It's 50 miles 00:07:48.949 --> 00:07:52.990 off the coast of Florida, but a very, very pristine 00:07:52.990 --> 00:07:56.189 nation with lots of natural resources. And so 00:07:56.189 --> 00:07:58.329 that's one of the programs where we're working 00:07:58.329 --> 00:08:01.689 with wild aid is in the Bahamas. And so wild 00:08:01.689 --> 00:08:03.629 aid is partnered with the Nature Conservancy. 00:08:04.160 --> 00:08:07.699 to create a marine action partnership to build 00:08:07.699 --> 00:08:11.319 the capacity of the Bahamas. And Bahamas is very 00:08:11.319 --> 00:08:14.680 unique, but think about it because you have a 00:08:14.680 --> 00:08:19.899 lot of citizens from the United States that are 00:08:19.899 --> 00:08:22.980 traveling over to the Bahamas by vessel. And, 00:08:22.980 --> 00:08:25.000 you know, as we know, some of these are going 00:08:25.000 --> 00:08:29.740 to abuse the natural resources. And if you think 00:08:29.740 --> 00:08:31.939 about the Bahamas, let's look at the Bahamas. 00:08:32.120 --> 00:08:37.159 So it's It's over 2 ,000 islands. It's over 2 00:08:37.159 --> 00:08:39.960 million square miles of patrol area. So think 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:42.620 about your responsibility to patrol in an area 00:08:42.620 --> 00:08:45.980 like that. But the Bahamas, it's different. It's 00:08:45.980 --> 00:08:49.940 not the United States. And as our favorite sheriff 00:08:49.940 --> 00:08:52.600 here in Polk County would say, people must have 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:54.240 grits for brains if they think they're going 00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:58.659 to go to the Bahamas and violate the law, because 00:08:58.659 --> 00:09:01.279 the Bahamas doesn't have a Fourth Amendment. 00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:04.340 It doesn't have a Fifth Amendment. It doesn't 00:09:04.340 --> 00:09:07.179 have any Bill of Rights. Right. So you're going 00:09:07.179 --> 00:09:10.879 to go to the Bahamas and violate the law? You 00:09:10.879 --> 00:09:12.919 must have grits for brains. Yeah. Good chance 00:09:12.919 --> 00:09:15.639 you're going to get arrested, right? Right. And 00:09:15.639 --> 00:09:19.320 what I love about the Bahamas, you realize there's 00:09:19.320 --> 00:09:22.100 no statute of limitations on fisheries charges? 00:09:22.840 --> 00:09:26.259 Wow. No statute of limitations. So listeners 00:09:26.259 --> 00:09:29.259 understand what a statute of limitation is. Basically, 00:09:29.399 --> 00:09:33.120 in most laws, there's a time in which law enforcement 00:09:33.120 --> 00:09:39.820 has to bring a case to charges. So it might be 00:09:39.820 --> 00:09:41.799 kind of typical statute of limitations. It might 00:09:41.799 --> 00:09:44.879 be two years in the federal realm. It's usually 00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:47.840 five years. So what that means is the government 00:09:47.840 --> 00:09:51.580 has five years or two years, whatever the statute 00:09:51.580 --> 00:09:53.940 of limitation is, to bring charges against an 00:09:53.940 --> 00:09:56.279 individual. And if the bad guy can get away with 00:09:56.279 --> 00:09:58.919 it long enough and push that statute of limitations, 00:09:59.159 --> 00:10:02.169 they actually can't be charged. So certain crimes 00:10:02.169 --> 00:10:04.389 like murder in the United States have no statute 00:10:04.389 --> 00:10:08.250 of limitations, but most crimes do have something. 00:10:08.950 --> 00:10:11.269 But yeah, so Bahamas has no statute of limitations. 00:10:11.330 --> 00:10:13.870 So it might be five, 10 years down the road if 00:10:13.870 --> 00:10:15.909 they develop a case against you, they could charge 00:10:15.909 --> 00:10:19.070 you, huh? So think about that picture you posted 00:10:19.070 --> 00:10:24.210 on Facebook 10 years ago. Yeah, true. Of you 00:10:24.210 --> 00:10:26.269 committing some crime down in Bahamas, fishing 00:10:26.269 --> 00:10:28.509 violation in the Bahamas. Could come back to 00:10:28.509 --> 00:10:31.340 haunt you. The Bahamas is very, very protective 00:10:31.340 --> 00:10:34.399 of their natural resources. And I got to tell 00:10:34.399 --> 00:10:36.259 you, some of the people that we're working with 00:10:36.259 --> 00:10:38.899 there are the most dedicated officers I've ever 00:10:38.899 --> 00:10:43.500 seen throughout the world. And we develop a close 00:10:43.500 --> 00:10:45.659 relationship with them. And so we kind of provide 00:10:45.659 --> 00:10:47.500 nicknames to some of the people that we work 00:10:47.500 --> 00:10:50.580 with. Some of the nicknames we gave to you, Ed, 00:10:50.600 --> 00:10:54.320 back when you were working. Which were all good, 00:10:54.480 --> 00:10:58.019 George. All of my nicknames were good. But one 00:10:58.019 --> 00:11:00.860 of the fisheries officers we work with over there, 00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:04.480 Ladina Pelicanos, we've nicknamed her the tiger 00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:07.559 shark. Nice. Because if you break the law, she's 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:11.779 going to eat you. Nice. And one of the prosecutors 00:11:11.779 --> 00:11:14.240 from the attorney general's office, Miss Kosha, 00:11:14.960 --> 00:11:18.320 we call her the honey badger. She's sweet, but 00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:23.399 the meanest animal in the world. There's a customs 00:11:23.399 --> 00:11:27.889 officer there named Frisco McKay. He's the Bahamian 00:11:27.889 --> 00:11:31.629 equivalent of Hulk Hogan. He scares me and I'm 00:11:31.629 --> 00:11:37.289 his friend. But we put all of these people together 00:11:37.289 --> 00:11:41.029 to work Operation Red Dawn. Nice. And basically 00:11:41.029 --> 00:11:46.549 how it started, there's a, they're charter boats. 00:11:46.690 --> 00:11:48.629 What it is, it's a charter boat investigations. 00:11:49.129 --> 00:11:53.029 And so you have some charter boats from Florida 00:11:53.029 --> 00:11:56.149 that are going over the Bahamas. and they're 00:11:56.149 --> 00:11:59.110 violating the law. Now, the Bahamas, like I said, 00:11:59.149 --> 00:12:01.190 is very protective of their natural resources, 00:12:01.230 --> 00:12:04.470 and so they have… there's permits required to 00:12:04.470 --> 00:12:08.610 run a foreign charter in the Bahamas. Your vessel 00:12:08.610 --> 00:12:11.909 has to be inspected. You obviously have to declare 00:12:11.909 --> 00:12:14.490 your passengers, and you have to pay taxes because 00:12:14.490 --> 00:12:17.750 you're generating a business income in the Bahamas. 00:12:18.610 --> 00:12:20.590 Well, as you know, there's always going to be 00:12:20.590 --> 00:12:22.529 somebody that's going to want to circumvent the 00:12:22.529 --> 00:12:25.419 law. And so there was one particular vessel. 00:12:25.419 --> 00:12:29.159 It was called the highly migratory. Isn't that 00:12:29.159 --> 00:12:32.159 it? And this is a US vessel. US vessel based 00:12:32.159 --> 00:12:35.039 out of South Florida. What an outpropos name, 00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:38.500 right? Yes. And you know, let me stop you for 00:12:38.500 --> 00:12:41.279 just a second. So listeners and watchers have 00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:42.559 a clear understanding of what you're talking 00:12:42.559 --> 00:12:45.379 about when you say charter. These are basically 00:12:45.379 --> 00:12:49.460 people who own pretty long, I mean, they're fishing 00:12:49.460 --> 00:12:51.759 boats, right? Like you might see somebody go 00:12:51.759 --> 00:12:54.799 out. off the coast of Florida, sport fishing 00:12:54.799 --> 00:12:57.399 for marlin or some other kind of big game fish. 00:12:57.879 --> 00:13:00.820 But they're charging people in the US, US citizens, 00:13:01.259 --> 00:13:03.500 to go all the way to the Bahamas and fish in 00:13:03.500 --> 00:13:07.539 Bahamian waters, right? Exactly. That's what 00:13:07.539 --> 00:13:12.399 you can picture is if you want to go on a fishing 00:13:12.399 --> 00:13:16.080 trip and you go to Florida and you encounter 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:19.480 some Advertisement or somebody on the dock who's 00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:21.120 advertising that they'll take you out to the 00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:23.399 Bahamas to fish and you how much are they paying 00:13:23.399 --> 00:13:28.059 these guys to go fishing per day? Yeah, they're 00:13:28.059 --> 00:13:32.379 Five to ten thousand a day Whoa charging for 00:13:32.379 --> 00:13:35.980 a charter fee So big money involved here. Yes, 00:13:35.980 --> 00:13:38.740 and this directly competes against the legal 00:13:38.740 --> 00:13:42.879 businesses that get the permits Right. Okay and 00:13:42.879 --> 00:13:45.259 directly competes against the Bahamian businesses 00:13:45.259 --> 00:13:48.340 that are trying to operate legally. So not only 00:13:48.340 --> 00:13:51.659 is it circumventing Bahama's ability to kind 00:13:51.659 --> 00:13:55.320 of manage its own fishery, but it's damaging 00:13:55.320 --> 00:14:00.220 Bahama's charter fishermen's business, right? 00:14:00.639 --> 00:14:03.200 Yes. And violating the laws over the bag limit 00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:07.100 violations, taking of unlawful species. Gotcha. 00:14:07.500 --> 00:14:11.559 OK. Well, what brought this case to attention? 00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:13.200 How did they – yeah, I was just going to say, 00:14:13.240 --> 00:14:16.299 how did they figure out this was a problem? So, 00:14:16.539 --> 00:14:20.639 the vessel was in the Bahamas fishing, and the 00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:24.120 vessel was approached by the Royal Bahamas Defense 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:26.580 Force, which is the equivalent of the Coast Guard. 00:14:26.820 --> 00:14:31.299 Okay. And the captain, who was very arrogant, 00:14:32.059 --> 00:14:36.039 first refused to stop for the Defense Force. 00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:39.879 And so they trailed him for a while, eventually 00:14:39.879 --> 00:14:43.159 convinced him to stop. Again, these are people 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:45.980 that are swinging M16s. So what were you thinking? 00:14:46.419 --> 00:14:47.879 Exactly. I was going to say, you're going to 00:14:47.879 --> 00:14:50.080 get a shot across the bow pretty quick, right? 00:14:51.080 --> 00:14:55.460 And so the vessel gets boarded and the captain 00:14:55.460 --> 00:15:00.759 starts berating the defense force officer and 00:15:00.759 --> 00:15:05.120 he films it. Films him giving this officer a 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:09.970 hard time. and posts it on Facebook. Here, I 00:15:09.970 --> 00:15:11.649 don't have to listen to the Bahamian authorities. 00:15:11.730 --> 00:15:14.309 I'll show them. Right. Arrogance on display. 00:15:15.090 --> 00:15:17.850 Yeah. So he brings attention to himself. And 00:15:17.850 --> 00:15:19.950 so during one of our training sessions, this 00:15:19.950 --> 00:15:22.470 was brought up about this person that they suspected 00:15:22.470 --> 00:15:26.009 was violating the law. Well, if you look at how 00:15:26.009 --> 00:15:29.450 you enforce or how to effect an enforcement on 00:15:29.450 --> 00:15:31.529 a charter violation, I mean, there's certain 00:15:31.529 --> 00:15:33.600 elements you have to prove. You know, you got 00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:35.600 to prove that transfer of money. You got to prove 00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:39.419 that there was a higher fishing for hire. Well, 00:15:39.759 --> 00:15:41.779 these vessels that are breaking the law, they 00:15:41.779 --> 00:15:45.539 coach their clients and they say, Hey, if we 00:15:45.539 --> 00:15:47.419 ever get stopped, we're just friends fishing. 00:15:48.100 --> 00:15:51.539 And so proving those cases can be very difficult. 00:15:52.259 --> 00:15:55.299 Right. And so this particular case was brought 00:15:55.299 --> 00:16:00.379 up. And so we, as a team in the Bahamas, we targeted 00:16:00.379 --> 00:16:03.460 this specific investigation. So, when you start 00:16:03.460 --> 00:16:06.639 pulling the records, you know, when someone checks 00:16:06.639 --> 00:16:08.620 into the Bahamas, they go through immigration. 00:16:09.080 --> 00:16:11.940 Right. Well, this individual had been in the 00:16:11.940 --> 00:16:16.899 Bahamas 18 times in the last three years. So, 00:16:17.659 --> 00:16:21.279 obviously, it's a red flag. He's traveling over 00:16:21.279 --> 00:16:25.440 there quite a bit. And, of course, license inspections, 00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:28.480 he had purchased no foreign charter license, 00:16:28.879 --> 00:16:32.080 no business licenses. vessels never been inspected 00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:34.960 for safety protocols is all required, you know, 00:16:35.299 --> 00:16:39.740 by Bahamian laws. So we began an investigation. 00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:43.659 So our role as, you know, as a consultant is, 00:16:43.659 --> 00:16:45.440 you know, to work with the local authorities 00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:48.019 to mentor them on how to do high -tech investigations. 00:16:48.620 --> 00:16:51.059 Yeah, because you have no authority to do anything 00:16:51.059 --> 00:16:53.519 in the Bahamas. You're just an advisor, basically, 00:16:53.840 --> 00:16:56.220 yeah? Correct, correct. And so we walk them through 00:16:56.220 --> 00:17:00.220 the steps on how you'll do, you know, a thorough 00:17:01.139 --> 00:17:03.659 involved investigation. Right. And so, of course, 00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:06.740 we know all the websites, all the social media 00:17:06.740 --> 00:17:10.680 sites in Florida. So, we start doing searches 00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:13.420 on this and start producing evidence on Instagram, 00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:16.680 Facebook of where this guy's posting pictures 00:17:16.680 --> 00:17:18.680 of all the fish that he's catching in the Bahamas. 00:17:19.779 --> 00:17:21.640 And, of course, you go to his website and he's 00:17:21.640 --> 00:17:24.980 openly advertising charter trips, and he's unlicensed. 00:17:25.259 --> 00:17:29.000 Right. So, I mean, it wasn't… a really hard decision 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:32.119 of who to target. So we set up an investigation. 00:17:32.220 --> 00:17:35.559 We created a task force bringing in representatives 00:17:35.559 --> 00:17:37.859 from each of the agencies that would be involved, 00:17:38.380 --> 00:17:41.819 you know, Fisheries, Defense Force, the Bahamian 00:17:41.819 --> 00:17:46.400 Police, and Customs. And so we organized a task 00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:48.839 force, putting it together, and we started working 00:17:48.839 --> 00:17:52.319 the investigation, started documenting evidence, 00:17:52.700 --> 00:17:56.500 walking them through how you would do an undercover 00:17:56.500 --> 00:18:01.119 investigation, how to reach out online, how to 00:18:01.119 --> 00:18:03.200 collect evidence, how to preserve that evidence, 00:18:03.579 --> 00:18:06.640 and basically just walked in and helped, assisted 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:10.140 with an investigation. And so a charter trip 00:18:10.140 --> 00:18:13.559 was ultimately booked with some Bahamian officers. 00:18:13.960 --> 00:18:16.579 We coached them on undercover tactics, evidence 00:18:16.579 --> 00:18:19.839 collection, the tracking of the vessel, because 00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:21.619 you're going to have to prove it's in Bahamian 00:18:21.619 --> 00:18:25.680 waters. Exactly. and put this case together, 00:18:25.759 --> 00:18:31.119 and then they did a takedown. Like I said, Customs 00:18:31.119 --> 00:18:34.940 Officer McKay just don't want to get in his way. 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:41.579 And now, unlike that first encounter where the 00:18:41.579 --> 00:18:44.259 charter boat captain was so arrogant and the 00:18:44.259 --> 00:18:49.079 clients were also lying in on the lie, now the 00:18:49.079 --> 00:18:51.160 difference between that situation and this situation 00:18:51.160 --> 00:18:54.990 is Bahamian authorities know for a fact that 00:18:54.990 --> 00:18:58.950 they're lying, right? And they can prove it. 00:18:59.089 --> 00:19:02.109 So it's a whole different ball game than them 00:19:02.109 --> 00:19:06.089 being kind of on their back heels, not able to 00:19:06.089 --> 00:19:09.869 prove or disprove what the crew and the paying 00:19:09.869 --> 00:19:12.009 clients are telling them about what they're doing 00:19:12.009 --> 00:19:17.230 or why, right? And the customers were actually 00:19:17.230 --> 00:19:22.049 cautioned by the vessel captain. on what to say 00:19:22.049 --> 00:19:24.769 if they were ever stopped. Wow. Coached, really, 00:19:24.769 --> 00:19:27.170 huh? Coached. Absolutely. Coached about what 00:19:27.170 --> 00:19:30.069 to say if they were ever stopped. And what was 00:19:30.069 --> 00:19:32.630 just hilarious is when the takedown team came 00:19:32.630 --> 00:19:36.710 in to make the stop, the captain grabs the customers 00:19:36.710 --> 00:19:40.410 and tells them, remember, don't say anything 00:19:40.410 --> 00:19:42.349 about this being a charter because charters are 00:19:42.349 --> 00:19:47.150 illegal. And so just beautiful evidence to prove 00:19:47.150 --> 00:19:50.990 a case. Awesome. And yeah, so he's telling basically 00:19:50.990 --> 00:19:53.250 undercover officers, hey, don't forget the story. 00:19:53.509 --> 00:19:56.609 So you got to lock down that there's intent there, 00:19:56.890 --> 00:19:59.230 there's pre -planning, there's conspiracy going 00:19:59.230 --> 00:20:03.170 on. It's beautiful. Nice. And this poor captain, 00:20:03.390 --> 00:20:08.390 again, grits for brains. So the Bahamas has specific 00:20:08.390 --> 00:20:12.289 laws. And you're a guest in their country. You 00:20:12.289 --> 00:20:15.160 should follow their laws. And so, of course, 00:20:15.160 --> 00:20:17.599 they have bag limits, size limits, license requirements, 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:21.720 but they also have gear requirements. So, for 00:20:21.720 --> 00:20:23.819 example, you can't use scuba gear to harvest 00:20:23.819 --> 00:20:26.960 any natural resources in the Bahamas. You can 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:29.180 do free diving, but you can't use scuba gear. 00:20:30.619 --> 00:20:34.740 Bahamas is very serious about firearms. Now, 00:20:34.900 --> 00:20:37.779 in the United States, we love our guns. But the 00:20:37.779 --> 00:20:40.640 Bahamas has firearms restrictions, and you have 00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:43.359 to register any guns that you bring into the 00:20:43.359 --> 00:20:48.160 Bahamas. Now, I say that because poor Gritz for 00:20:48.160 --> 00:20:51.880 brains was carrying a concealed pistol when he 00:20:51.880 --> 00:20:57.519 stopped by the Bahamian authorities. It's like, 00:20:57.700 --> 00:21:00.880 how? You just can't make this stuff up. Unbelievable. 00:21:01.079 --> 00:21:03.039 And that's probably, yeah, that might be more 00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:05.779 serious than the fishing violation, right? Yes, 00:21:06.019 --> 00:21:09.309 very so. And again, getting into the prohibited 00:21:09.309 --> 00:21:12.190 equipment, they don't allow scuba gear. They 00:21:12.190 --> 00:21:17.130 don't allow bang sticks. And so when the vessel 00:21:17.130 --> 00:21:18.930 was searched, of course, there's a bang stick 00:21:18.930 --> 00:21:21.269 on board. The captain's carrying a concealed 00:21:21.269 --> 00:21:24.029 gun. There's ammunition on board. And you had 00:21:24.029 --> 00:21:30.670 all these other violations that they were charged 00:21:30.670 --> 00:21:33.650 with. Explain a bang stick to listeners who might 00:21:33.650 --> 00:21:36.440 not know what that is. So a bank stick is a device 00:21:36.440 --> 00:21:38.619 that you use, scuba divers will use underwater. 00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:43.680 It's got a bullet on the end of the long pole, 00:21:43.880 --> 00:21:45.940 whether it's a shotgun shell or whether it's 00:21:45.940 --> 00:21:48.799 a pistol shell, you know, pistol cartridge. And 00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:52.039 you use it to, you know, to shoot fish underwater. 00:21:52.420 --> 00:21:56.400 And so it's commonly used to shoot sharks. That's 00:21:56.400 --> 00:21:59.140 the most common use in the saltwater environment, 00:21:59.240 --> 00:22:02.140 shooting sharks with it. Well, sharks are protected 00:22:02.140 --> 00:22:07.349 in the Bahamas. And so why do they have this 00:22:07.349 --> 00:22:09.390 illegal device on board to begin with kind of 00:22:09.390 --> 00:22:11.190 leads you to believe that they're violating other 00:22:11.190 --> 00:22:14.509 laws also. You bet. So they were arrested that 00:22:14.509 --> 00:22:17.869 day. Nice. You don't want to sit in a Bahamian 00:22:17.869 --> 00:22:23.329 jail, believe me. Is this true in many, many 00:22:23.329 --> 00:22:26.970 jails outside the United States? It's not a resort. 00:22:27.109 --> 00:22:30.549 It's not a resort. Exactly. And of course, again, 00:22:30.670 --> 00:22:33.109 this is a different country, so the procedures 00:22:33.109 --> 00:22:36.240 are different. You know, so, uh, these poor individuals, 00:22:36.519 --> 00:22:39.180 they sat in a Bahamian jail for a week. Whoa. 00:22:40.019 --> 00:22:46.680 Before first appearance. Wow. And, and so, um, 00:22:47.500 --> 00:22:49.700 the case was quickly, really quickly solved. 00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:51.559 You know, in the United States, a case like this 00:22:51.559 --> 00:22:54.940 would drag on for two years. Uh, Hamas, it's 00:22:54.940 --> 00:22:57.740 over within six months. You're sentenced. Interesting. 00:22:57.779 --> 00:23:01.019 And so in, in this particular case, um, There 00:23:01.019 --> 00:23:05.960 was over $300 ,000 in fines. Nice. That's huge. 00:23:06.759 --> 00:23:11.079 Yes, huge, huge. Plus, there was a three -year 00:23:11.079 --> 00:23:13.420 ban. These individuals now have a three -year 00:23:13.420 --> 00:23:16.099 ban from fishing in the Bahamas. Okay. That's 00:23:16.099 --> 00:23:17.940 also huge. That's going to cut into their business 00:23:17.940 --> 00:23:20.900 quite a bit. Yes. So the Bahamas takes the protection 00:23:20.900 --> 00:23:23.619 of their resources very serious. Do they have 00:23:23.619 --> 00:23:25.480 forfeiture? Was there any risk they were going 00:23:25.480 --> 00:23:28.119 to lose their boat? Well, the boat was seized. 00:23:28.299 --> 00:23:32.599 It was held for about six months. The forfeiture 00:23:32.599 --> 00:23:35.319 proceedings are still going on on the vessel. 00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:39.599 But the Bahamian courts allowed them to place 00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:42.500 a bond. They had to place a $100 ,000 bond on 00:23:42.500 --> 00:23:46.539 the vessel in lieu of the forfeiture proceedings. 00:23:47.079 --> 00:23:50.119 And so that's still occurring. So there's an 00:23:50.119 --> 00:23:52.299 opportunity they're going to lose the boat. Wow. 00:23:52.859 --> 00:23:57.339 OK. That's good. This is a half a million dollar 00:23:57.339 --> 00:24:02.960 vessel. So by posting the bond, they're allowed 00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:05.859 to take the vessel. Wait a minute. Let me back 00:24:05.859 --> 00:24:07.319 up a little bit. Did these guys end up going 00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:09.839 to jail in Bahamas, other than spending their 00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:12.460 time in jail prior to their trial? Oh, yeah. 00:24:12.460 --> 00:24:14.279 They spent a week in jail prior to the trial. 00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:17.500 Now, they were not sentenced to jail. They were 00:24:17.500 --> 00:24:20.500 sentenced to a fine. Got it. Now, if they don't 00:24:20.500 --> 00:24:23.279 pay the fine, there is a jail sentence associated 00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:26.579 with it. Got it. OK. And then they pay this bond 00:24:26.579 --> 00:24:30.279 on the boat so they can take the boat. But if 00:24:30.279 --> 00:24:33.180 the forfeiture procedures are successful and 00:24:33.180 --> 00:24:36.839 the Bahamian government seizes the vessel or 00:24:36.839 --> 00:24:38.740 forfeits it, they'll have to either return it 00:24:38.740 --> 00:24:40.940 or forfeit their bond. Is that the idea? Correct. 00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:44.099 Correct. Gotcha. And this was a vessel called 00:24:44.099 --> 00:24:47.539 the highly migratory, right? Yes. Which is kind 00:24:47.539 --> 00:24:51.460 of apropos. And how many times did they conclude 00:24:51.460 --> 00:24:54.259 that this vessel had been operating commercially, 00:24:54.579 --> 00:24:58.799 likely commercially, in Bahama waters? Well, 00:24:58.859 --> 00:25:01.299 we know from just records that they were in the 00:25:01.299 --> 00:25:04.920 Bahamas over 18 times. Yeah. OK. So quite a few. 00:25:05.359 --> 00:25:08.900 Yeah. Now proving, of course, proving those cases 00:25:08.900 --> 00:25:13.369 would be difficult. Yeah. But likely, right? 00:25:13.549 --> 00:25:15.650 I mean, it's likely they were violating at that 00:25:15.650 --> 00:25:18.410 time, too. Well, and remember, there's no statute 00:25:18.410 --> 00:25:21.250 of limitations. Right, exactly. So whatever can 00:25:21.250 --> 00:25:25.170 be proved in the future is good to go. How many 00:25:25.170 --> 00:25:27.369 days do these trips last? So where do they come 00:25:27.369 --> 00:25:30.029 out of? Miami or at least the ports on the East 00:25:30.029 --> 00:25:33.009 Coast there? Yeah, they'll come off the East 00:25:33.009 --> 00:25:35.029 Coast of Florida. They'll travel over the Bahamas. 00:25:36.639 --> 00:25:39.099 Depending on the client, how long he books a 00:25:39.099 --> 00:25:41.319 trip. Now, this particular trip was only one 00:25:41.319 --> 00:25:45.240 day. OK. But the cost of the trip was $5 ,000. 00:25:45.500 --> 00:25:49.039 Right. So typically, though, would you go and 00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:51.920 come back in a day, or would fishermen stay more 00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:54.299 than one day? Depending on what the client wanted 00:25:54.299 --> 00:25:56.140 to do, if he wanted to book a three -day trip, 00:25:56.359 --> 00:26:00.440 it would be a three -day charter. Kind of funny, 00:26:00.660 --> 00:26:04.480 hilarious, the charter fee was paid at the end 00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:08.380 of the charter. on this particular fishing trip. 00:26:09.799 --> 00:26:11.500 And of course, the money was seized back by the 00:26:11.500 --> 00:26:16.559 Bahamian authorities. Nice. OK, good. So they 00:26:16.559 --> 00:26:19.880 didn't get their charter fee. Nice. OK. What 00:26:19.880 --> 00:26:22.259 happens to the clients that paid for this trip 00:26:22.259 --> 00:26:24.079 that were in the know and coached and agreed 00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:26.539 to be coached? What happened to them? Well, these 00:26:26.539 --> 00:26:29.059 clients were Bahamian officers. Oh, right, right, 00:26:29.059 --> 00:26:31.759 right. Were there cases made against any of the 00:26:31.759 --> 00:26:34.039 previous customers, or is that still a possibility? 00:26:34.690 --> 00:26:39.190 It's still being pursued. Again, there's no statute 00:26:39.190 --> 00:26:44.869 of limitations. And so when you enter the Bahamas, 00:26:44.930 --> 00:26:47.829 you're going through immigration and you fill 00:26:47.829 --> 00:26:52.829 out your passenger list. So, of course, the Bahamian 00:26:52.829 --> 00:26:55.170 officers now know all the passengers from the 00:26:55.170 --> 00:26:58.269 previous trips. You bet. Yeah. And so, yeah. 00:26:58.329 --> 00:27:02.109 So, I mean, this case can go on for quite a while. 00:27:02.430 --> 00:27:05.250 So on the one that they were the undercovers 00:27:05.250 --> 00:27:08.789 were Bahamian officers I thought maybe they were 00:27:08.789 --> 00:27:10.930 just a few of the one or two of the officers 00:27:10.930 --> 00:27:15.349 were undercover among more than that Number of 00:27:15.349 --> 00:27:17.150 clients like I thought maybe there might be five 00:27:17.150 --> 00:27:19.289 or six clients on the boat and two of them under 00:27:19.289 --> 00:27:22.349 covers But it's for that trip. It was booked 00:27:22.349 --> 00:27:25.369 by undercover people That's sure and think about 00:27:25.369 --> 00:27:27.670 that and you think about an undercover operation 00:27:27.670 --> 00:27:29.890 that we run in the US You want to be able to 00:27:29.890 --> 00:27:33.079 tightly control all aspects of it? Right. And 00:27:33.079 --> 00:27:35.779 so this is one of the training techniques that 00:27:35.779 --> 00:27:38.940 we taught them is to have absolute control. So 00:27:38.940 --> 00:27:41.039 you don't want any other civilians on board the 00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:43.400 boat. Gotcha. Gotcha. And so they paid the full 00:27:43.400 --> 00:27:46.839 charter fee in order to control the operation. 00:27:47.240 --> 00:27:51.599 Good. Yeah, it's funny. I did some undercover 00:27:51.599 --> 00:27:54.900 work with NOAA on a fishing boat that was a little 00:27:54.900 --> 00:27:57.019 bit bigger than I think what we're talking about 00:27:57.019 --> 00:27:59.440 here, operating off the coast of California. 00:27:59.579 --> 00:28:01.819 And there were maybe 20 clients on the boat. 00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:05.119 So there were two undercover officers, me and 00:28:05.119 --> 00:28:07.599 another, on the boat. And it does create some 00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:09.940 real safety challenges, because you're out there 00:28:09.940 --> 00:28:16.240 with 18 other people who probably would not be 00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:18.819 too happy to know there were two undercover law 00:28:18.819 --> 00:28:22.740 enforcement officers in their midst. And everybody 00:28:22.740 --> 00:28:26.599 there's got a knife at a minimum, if not some 00:28:26.599 --> 00:28:29.819 weapons. So yeah, very good. If you can control 00:28:29.819 --> 00:28:34.200 for that. That was smart. Very good. So that 00:28:34.200 --> 00:28:37.359 case, Operation Red Dawn 1, only involved this 00:28:37.359 --> 00:28:40.160 one fishing vessel, the highly migratory. Is 00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:43.900 that right? Right. Right. And so it was so successful, 00:28:43.960 --> 00:28:46.799 why not try another one? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. 00:28:47.019 --> 00:28:49.759 Start deterring people, right? So along comes 00:28:49.759 --> 00:28:54.839 Red Dawn 2. OK. So again, another charter vessel, 00:28:55.640 --> 00:28:58.000 which complaints had been received by the Bahamian 00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:02.599 authorities. This first Red Dawn operation with 00:29:02.599 --> 00:29:05.319 the highly migratory, it generated so much publicity 00:29:05.319 --> 00:29:08.420 that the complaint lines just started lighting 00:29:08.420 --> 00:29:11.640 up. Excellent. And so another complaint comes 00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:14.140 in on another vessel that's operating and doing 00:29:14.140 --> 00:29:16.960 the same thing. And so the team got back together 00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:20.180 again, put another operation together. And this 00:29:20.180 --> 00:29:23.019 was just in October. This is just last month. 00:29:23.619 --> 00:29:25.960 And so there was another arrest made. Now that 00:29:25.960 --> 00:29:27.759 rest is still pending and hadn't been sentenced 00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:31.069 yet. Right. But just like the first one, it'll 00:29:31.069 --> 00:29:34.210 be over in six months. And similar setup. Yeah, 00:29:34.230 --> 00:29:37.130 they're doing some undercover work to figure 00:29:37.130 --> 00:29:40.490 out what's going on. The beauty about this is 00:29:40.490 --> 00:29:44.309 that some people might say, oh, well, the publicity 00:29:44.309 --> 00:29:46.130 is a bad thing, right? Because it's going to 00:29:46.130 --> 00:29:51.750 warn people. But that's kind of the job, or that's 00:29:51.750 --> 00:29:54.730 the goal, is to deter crime and prevent crime 00:29:54.730 --> 00:29:57.400 from happening in the first place. So yeah, while 00:29:57.400 --> 00:29:59.299 it's fun to be a law enforcement officer and 00:29:59.299 --> 00:30:02.700 catch lots of people, if you're not seeing the 00:30:02.700 --> 00:30:05.980 crime go down or disappear, that's kind of defeating 00:30:05.980 --> 00:30:09.059 the goal, right? So the publicity will be good. 00:30:09.420 --> 00:30:12.740 Because now these charter boat captains operating 00:30:12.740 --> 00:30:17.359 out of the US, they're going to have to be, if 00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:18.920 they're planning to go do something illegal, 00:30:19.059 --> 00:30:20.559 they're going to have to be much, much, much 00:30:21.190 --> 00:30:24.410 More careful and wary and much more likely to 00:30:24.410 --> 00:30:27.009 do it because they just don't know Right now 00:30:27.009 --> 00:30:29.250 that they know that Bahamas is paying attention 00:30:29.250 --> 00:30:33.589 It's likely to deter future crime, right? And 00:30:33.589 --> 00:30:36.890 that's the goal. Yeah Compliance and the protection 00:30:36.890 --> 00:30:39.789 of the resource Exactly. It's not just to keep 00:30:39.789 --> 00:30:41.569 catching a lot of people. It's then that and 00:30:41.569 --> 00:30:43.670 that's where the publicity There's a there's 00:30:43.670 --> 00:30:45.650 a strategic point where the publicity becomes 00:30:45.650 --> 00:30:47.710 very important because you want people to know 00:30:47.710 --> 00:30:52.430 that crime fighters are out there and be – if 00:30:52.430 --> 00:30:54.470 you violate the law, you're going to come across 00:30:54.470 --> 00:30:56.089 a crime fighter and they're going to hold you 00:30:56.089 --> 00:31:01.369 accountable, right? Right. And another operation 00:31:01.369 --> 00:31:04.690 that we're doing there, we taught an internet 00:31:04.690 --> 00:31:07.349 crimes class to some of the Bahamas officers. 00:31:07.349 --> 00:31:10.329 Nice. Excellent. And you showed them the tactics 00:31:10.329 --> 00:31:13.329 of working crime on the internet. They're having 00:31:13.329 --> 00:31:16.650 a blast. Excellent. So all of these people that 00:31:16.650 --> 00:31:19.049 are posting… They're fishing pictures from the 00:31:19.049 --> 00:31:21.970 Bahamas. You know, the bagel and a lobster in 00:31:21.970 --> 00:31:25.329 the Bahamas is 10. And you've got pictures of 00:31:25.329 --> 00:31:29.829 people with 150 lobster on their boat. Perfect. 00:31:30.630 --> 00:31:33.470 And again, I mean, they're just having a blast 00:31:33.470 --> 00:31:36.029 working these cases now. Awesome. Are you taking 00:31:36.029 --> 00:31:38.430 a few lessons learned from Operation Wild Web? 00:31:39.230 --> 00:31:43.329 Exactly. Very good. All right. That's how it 00:31:43.329 --> 00:31:45.609 makes me very happy, George, to know that. That's 00:31:45.609 --> 00:31:48.450 very good. That makes me very happy. You know, 00:31:48.490 --> 00:31:50.549 so you mentioned lobsters. I think when we're 00:31:50.549 --> 00:31:53.730 talking about these fishing vessels, in my mind, 00:31:53.809 --> 00:31:58.509 I'm thinking, OK, marlin for sure, sailfish maybe, 00:31:58.509 --> 00:32:01.109 maybe sharks. What other species are being targeted? 00:32:01.410 --> 00:32:05.509 Lobsters, I assume. Yeah? Yeah, lobster, queen 00:32:05.509 --> 00:32:10.450 conch, wahoo. You've got a lot of pelagic species. 00:32:11.329 --> 00:32:14.250 You know, your marlin, your sailfish, some really, 00:32:15.130 --> 00:32:18.430 really high -dollar fishing species that are 00:32:18.430 --> 00:32:22.069 in the Bahamas that are targeted. And so they're 00:32:22.069 --> 00:32:24.509 very fortunate, very rich in natural resources. 00:32:25.430 --> 00:32:28.509 And the whole lobster issue, too, is interesting 00:32:28.509 --> 00:32:31.549 because there's a lobster fishery off California. 00:32:32.269 --> 00:32:35.450 And the resource issue there is there's a temptation 00:32:35.450 --> 00:32:38.470 to take a lot of them, right? And so, like you 00:32:38.470 --> 00:32:41.069 said, if the limit in Bahamas is, what, 10 and 00:32:41.069 --> 00:32:42.849 people are taking pictures of themselves with 00:32:42.849 --> 00:32:46.089 100, that's That's a gross over limit is how 00:32:46.089 --> 00:32:49.650 we would describe that in the biz. And the issue 00:32:49.650 --> 00:32:52.869 with these larger fish, the pelagic species you 00:32:52.869 --> 00:32:56.589 mentioned, they're migratory. They move around. 00:32:57.049 --> 00:32:59.809 And so taking them out of certain ecosystems 00:32:59.809 --> 00:33:03.609 could harm breeding and feeding in other places 00:33:03.609 --> 00:33:06.950 of the world. So you might be impacting populations 00:33:06.950 --> 00:33:09.829 around the world. And of course, these are predatory 00:33:09.829 --> 00:33:11.990 fish, which puts them higher on the food chain, 00:33:11.990 --> 00:33:16.329 which means there's fewer of them. And so that's 00:33:16.329 --> 00:33:18.410 a real conservation issue for Bahamas if you 00:33:18.410 --> 00:33:21.410 start taking too many of these larger predatory 00:33:21.410 --> 00:33:24.829 fish. It could have cascading impacts, right? 00:33:26.410 --> 00:33:28.950 The Bahamas is only 50 miles off the coast of 00:33:28.950 --> 00:33:32.210 Florida. Right. And so what happens in the Bahamas 00:33:32.210 --> 00:33:36.369 affects Florida. That is an excellent point, 00:33:36.589 --> 00:33:39.269 right? That's a really excellent point because 00:33:39.269 --> 00:33:42.809 it's all the same waters in there. You know, 00:33:42.950 --> 00:33:48.250 thinking as a Fed, did you guys pursue this with 00:33:48.250 --> 00:33:51.190 the US attorney's office in Miami? Because in 00:33:51.190 --> 00:33:53.849 my mind, I'm thinking Lacey Act violation, felony 00:33:53.849 --> 00:33:57.690 Lacey Act. If the clients in the US are paying 00:33:57.690 --> 00:34:00.369 $5 ,000 and knowing that they're going to go 00:34:00.369 --> 00:34:03.230 over there and be expected to lie, that's a classic 00:34:03.230 --> 00:34:07.130 Lacey Act violation, felony. Or maybe you can't 00:34:07.130 --> 00:34:09.369 talk about that, but is the US attorney looped 00:34:09.369 --> 00:34:12.139 in there in Miami? Yeah, let's not talk about 00:34:12.139 --> 00:34:15.860 that. OK. All right. Well, never mind. Maybe 00:34:15.860 --> 00:34:20.099 we should bleep that part out, George. Anyway, 00:34:20.340 --> 00:34:24.059 another good thing for people to understand is 00:34:24.059 --> 00:34:28.519 if people in the US leave the US to commit crimes 00:34:28.519 --> 00:34:32.099 overseas, violate another country's law, and 00:34:32.099 --> 00:34:34.940 they pay US dollars to go do that, whether it's 00:34:34.940 --> 00:34:38.679 fishing in the Bahamas or hunting in Africa or 00:34:38.860 --> 00:34:42.500 uh... you know hunting in australia to zealand 00:34:42.500 --> 00:34:46.179 whatever if they know in advance they're booking 00:34:46.179 --> 00:34:48.619 basically some type of illegal activity they're 00:34:48.619 --> 00:34:51.099 using u .s. dollars to pay for it they're actually 00:34:51.099 --> 00:34:54.019 committing crime in the united states under the 00:34:54.019 --> 00:34:57.219 lacy act and it's that it's that act of paying 00:34:57.219 --> 00:34:59.820 to go do something illegal overseas and i think 00:35:01.480 --> 00:35:04.340 We're unique in the world in that regard, in 00:35:04.340 --> 00:35:07.619 that the United States takes a very strong interest 00:35:07.619 --> 00:35:10.739 in helping other countries protect their public 00:35:10.739 --> 00:35:13.579 safety, their environment, whatever it is. And 00:35:13.579 --> 00:35:16.219 yeah, an American citizen who travels in international 00:35:16.219 --> 00:35:19.179 commerce to commit a crime can very quickly find 00:35:19.179 --> 00:35:22.440 themselves in a US jail, as well as that dank 00:35:22.440 --> 00:35:26.519 dark foreign jail, right? Yeah, and think about 00:35:26.519 --> 00:35:29.840 that concept. Yeah. Because in you know in some 00:35:29.840 --> 00:35:33.000 of these countries that the fines may be very 00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:36.039 minimal Mm -hmm cost to do in business. It's 00:35:36.039 --> 00:35:38.659 part of my my tourist trip Mm -hmm, but when 00:35:38.659 --> 00:35:41.219 you start partnering when the United States starts 00:35:41.219 --> 00:35:43.780 partnering with these other countries And they're 00:35:43.780 --> 00:35:46.440 able to affect these charges back in the United 00:35:46.440 --> 00:35:49.599 States that are significant That's what's gonna 00:35:49.599 --> 00:35:54.730 stop the crime. You bet. Yeah Yeah, and it provides 00:35:54.730 --> 00:35:57.030 the foreign countries with some very valuable 00:35:57.030 --> 00:36:00.849 US assistance, right? So like, for example, when 00:36:00.849 --> 00:36:02.710 I was in Africa, I can't tell you how many times 00:36:02.710 --> 00:36:05.829 I assisted foreign nations in their investigations 00:36:05.829 --> 00:36:09.929 of US citizens who had come over to wherever, 00:36:11.090 --> 00:36:14.630 South Africa, Zambia, Zimbabwe, to illegally 00:36:14.630 --> 00:36:18.449 hunt some animal, whether it's an elephant or 00:36:18.449 --> 00:36:23.969 antelope or whatever. All of a sudden now, The 00:36:23.969 --> 00:36:27.409 thinly stretched Zambian wildlife authorities 00:36:27.409 --> 00:36:30.309 now have the assistance of a US Fish and Wildlife 00:36:30.309 --> 00:36:33.210 Service special agent in helping them make the 00:36:33.210 --> 00:36:35.869 case against a foreign national, which is difficult. 00:36:35.949 --> 00:36:37.989 Because a foreign national, this boat's name 00:36:37.989 --> 00:36:41.530 is highly migratory. The problem is, highly migratory 00:36:41.530 --> 00:36:44.969 can zip into Bahamian waters, fish, and zip out. 00:36:45.429 --> 00:36:47.769 And once it's out of Bahamian waters, there's 00:36:47.769 --> 00:36:51.340 not a lot they can do to. check that unless they 00:36:51.340 --> 00:36:55.300 have cooperation from us. So pretty cool. Exactly. 00:36:55.739 --> 00:36:58.940 Very cool. And you know from working internationally 00:36:58.940 --> 00:37:02.539 that these developing countries, they don't have 00:37:02.539 --> 00:37:05.840 a lot of money to invest in their enforcement 00:37:05.840 --> 00:37:09.780 programs. Right. And so, you know, these are 00:37:09.780 --> 00:37:12.179 just tactics that we can use to help them in 00:37:12.179 --> 00:37:15.420 their enforcement. Exactly. Because as you know, 00:37:15.420 --> 00:37:18.559 like many of the officers in these developing 00:37:18.559 --> 00:37:20.659 countries, many of these fisheries officers don't 00:37:20.659 --> 00:37:25.480 have guns. Their agency can't afford it. And 00:37:25.480 --> 00:37:30.059 so they're out there patrolling and they're unarmed. 00:37:30.980 --> 00:37:32.340 You know, many of these developing countries, 00:37:32.360 --> 00:37:34.539 they don't have patrol boats for the officers. 00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:36.840 Or they don't, as we were talking about before 00:37:36.840 --> 00:37:38.980 we went live here, they don't have fuel. They 00:37:38.980 --> 00:37:40.320 might have the boat, but they don't have the 00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:43.820 fuel. Yeah. Yeah. And so they have to calculate, 00:37:43.900 --> 00:37:46.239 do they have enough fuel to go out? And come 00:37:46.239 --> 00:37:51.800 back. Or do they have enough fuel to go out and 00:37:51.800 --> 00:37:55.059 then potentially get in a pursuit and track somebody 00:37:55.059 --> 00:37:57.820 down and then get back, right? So you have to 00:37:57.820 --> 00:37:59.820 have enough fuel on board to account for the 00:37:59.820 --> 00:38:01.579 unknowns you're going to encounter that day as 00:38:01.579 --> 00:38:04.480 well. Yeah. And we don't think about these issues 00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:08.099 in the States. You and me, working for US Fish 00:38:08.099 --> 00:38:10.579 and Wildlife or Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation 00:38:10.579 --> 00:38:13.280 Commission, you just fill up your boat when you 00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:15.739 need to go out. And it's not really a concern 00:38:15.739 --> 00:38:18.760 for you. But some of these little things are 00:38:18.760 --> 00:38:22.320 very important, like bullets, fuel, maintenance. 00:38:22.739 --> 00:38:26.300 That might be a real issue for a foreign law 00:38:26.300 --> 00:38:30.519 enforcement officer. Let me tell you what I used 00:38:30.519 --> 00:38:33.420 to tell African officers and see if this resonates 00:38:33.420 --> 00:38:36.619 with you. I bet it will. I used to remind them, 00:38:36.619 --> 00:38:38.099 because a lot of times they would look to the 00:38:38.099 --> 00:38:41.400 US and say, wow, you guys have some amazing toys. 00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:44.639 How do we get a drone? Or how do we get night 00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:48.780 vision goggles? And I always used to remind them 00:38:48.780 --> 00:38:52.360 that you can have all the fancy tools in the 00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:56.119 world, but if you're not a good detective, they 00:38:56.119 --> 00:38:58.760 don't mean anything. And so I used to remind 00:38:58.760 --> 00:39:01.420 them. I was like, look, detectives have been 00:39:01.420 --> 00:39:06.599 catching people for hundreds of years. And formally, 00:39:07.400 --> 00:39:09.940 since the first professional police forces, it's 00:39:09.940 --> 00:39:17.179 been about 100. 25 years -ish. They've been catching 00:39:17.179 --> 00:39:19.900 people just by doing good old -fashioned detective 00:39:19.900 --> 00:39:23.980 work. And bring that to bear. Bring honest, hardcore, 00:39:24.239 --> 00:39:26.239 good old -fashioned detective work to bear on 00:39:26.239 --> 00:39:29.219 your problems. You probably don't need night 00:39:29.219 --> 00:39:32.159 vision. You know what I mean? Exactly. Exactly. 00:39:32.840 --> 00:39:34.800 And that's what you're doing. What I love about 00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:36.440 what you're doing with the Bahamas is you're 00:39:36.440 --> 00:39:39.360 not coming in and saying, hey. Here we are, a 00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:41.260 bunch of former command staff from different 00:39:41.260 --> 00:39:43.539 agencies in the states. We know what we're doing. 00:39:43.860 --> 00:39:47.300 Let us take over. You're coming in, and basically, 00:39:48.420 --> 00:39:50.780 you're backstopping them. You're empowering them. 00:39:51.659 --> 00:39:53.940 You're basically saying, hey, here's some ideas 00:39:53.940 --> 00:39:56.460 of things we have done in the states successfully. 00:39:56.820 --> 00:39:59.739 What do you think? And it's up to them if they 00:39:59.739 --> 00:40:02.159 take it or not. And they're running with it. 00:40:02.159 --> 00:40:04.800 And then it's their thing, which is that's the 00:40:04.800 --> 00:40:06.780 way to do it, man. That is really the way to 00:40:06.780 --> 00:40:10.130 do it. Exactly. Because you're working your way 00:40:10.130 --> 00:40:13.369 into obsolescence, which is right, right? Now, 00:40:13.369 --> 00:40:15.530 Bahamas shouldn't need you too much in the future, 00:40:15.710 --> 00:40:18.809 right? Or they don't need you as much. Well, 00:40:18.809 --> 00:40:20.670 and there's plenty of other areas in the world 00:40:20.670 --> 00:40:23.010 to work. Exactly. You move on to the next place. 00:40:23.429 --> 00:40:26.949 That's why I love these two operations. I think 00:40:26.949 --> 00:40:28.989 they're just great because it's going to empower 00:40:28.989 --> 00:40:31.469 Bahamas to do more and more in the future. Very 00:40:31.469 --> 00:40:37.119 cool. Yeah. Boy, we've really blazed through 00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:39.760 this topic, George. What else do you want to 00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:44.280 talk about on this? Oh, wow. Well, I just finished 00:40:44.280 --> 00:40:47.300 up a trip in the Philippines, which was very, 00:40:47.300 --> 00:40:49.840 very interesting. So we were working some details 00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:54.019 there on dynamite fishing. Can you imagine it's 00:40:54.019 --> 00:40:56.119 still going on in the world, dynamite fishing? 00:40:56.519 --> 00:40:59.960 Yeah. Yeah. And that may still happen in the 00:40:59.960 --> 00:41:03.840 Caribbean as well. I'm not sure. Are they, when 00:41:03.840 --> 00:41:05.900 you say dynamite fishing, are they targeting 00:41:05.900 --> 00:41:09.480 fish species or coral? Well, they're targeting 00:41:09.480 --> 00:41:11.860 fish species. I see. But they're blowing everything 00:41:11.860 --> 00:41:15.420 up. Right. Right. And these are fish species 00:41:15.420 --> 00:41:17.920 that end up in the food chain for us, or are 00:41:17.920 --> 00:41:21.579 they? OK. Yeah, food chain. You mentioned to 00:41:21.579 --> 00:41:23.420 me, too, the other day that there's still some 00:41:23.420 --> 00:41:27.860 cyanide fishing going on. Exactly. Yeah, that's 00:41:27.860 --> 00:41:30.500 another illegal technique that's done throughout 00:41:30.500 --> 00:41:33.559 the Philippines and also in the Caribbean. So 00:41:33.559 --> 00:41:37.760 explain how that works. How are they using cyanide 00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:41.619 to fish? Well, they're injecting these poison 00:41:41.619 --> 00:41:44.619 chemicals into the water. It stuns the fish. 00:41:45.139 --> 00:41:47.320 And then they collect the fish and then take 00:41:47.320 --> 00:41:51.079 them to the market. Well, the fish have poison 00:41:51.079 --> 00:41:55.139 on them. Exactly. And who knows what else they 00:41:55.139 --> 00:41:58.320 killed that they didn't collect, right? It's 00:41:58.320 --> 00:42:03.059 cyanide into the water. And what's the purpose 00:42:03.059 --> 00:42:04.860 behind that, to just get as many fish as you 00:42:04.860 --> 00:42:06.920 can in a shorter period as you can without much 00:42:06.920 --> 00:42:11.900 work? Easier method to collect fish. You throw 00:42:11.900 --> 00:42:13.760 a stick of dynamite in the water, and now you've 00:42:13.760 --> 00:42:15.760 got a couple hundred pounds of fish floating. 00:42:17.500 --> 00:42:19.699 Not to mention, it blows up the coral reefs, 00:42:19.739 --> 00:42:22.210 and nothing's going to live thereafter. Right? 00:42:22.869 --> 00:42:25.030 Yeah, it is hard. That stuff I remember hearing 00:42:25.030 --> 00:42:29.110 about 30 years ago, when I was a much younger 00:42:29.110 --> 00:42:31.789 man, I thought that was a problem. And it's shocking 00:42:31.789 --> 00:42:37.150 to hear that it's still going on. Yeah. And people 00:42:37.150 --> 00:42:39.250 might say, well, how? How are they not getting 00:42:39.250 --> 00:42:42.269 caught? But then you just go back to, if you're 00:42:42.269 --> 00:42:43.969 in the Philippines or Indonesia, you're talking 00:42:43.969 --> 00:42:46.280 about it. nations that basically are made up 00:42:46.280 --> 00:42:48.519 of thousands of islands, the Bahamas. It's made 00:42:48.519 --> 00:42:52.000 up of thousands of islands. It's a very, very 00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:55.679 daunting task to patrol that area and to not 00:42:55.679 --> 00:42:58.699 only find those people, but to promptly respond 00:42:58.699 --> 00:43:01.039 to those types of crimes in progress, right? 00:43:01.659 --> 00:43:05.900 Right. And so think about it from our experience, 00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:08.579 you know, from an investigative standpoint, you 00:43:08.579 --> 00:43:12.880 know, how would you work blast fishing? And so 00:43:12.880 --> 00:43:16.860 there's more than just Patrol techniques there's 00:43:16.860 --> 00:43:20.099 investigative techniques So, you know the fishing 00:43:20.099 --> 00:43:22.579 villages where the the blast fishermen are coming 00:43:22.579 --> 00:43:26.840 from So if you identify who the fishermen are 00:43:26.840 --> 00:43:30.860 through intelligence Throw a GPS tracker on the 00:43:30.860 --> 00:43:34.059 boat And then you can follow the fishermen and 00:43:34.059 --> 00:43:37.239 then when he commits the violation You've identified 00:43:37.239 --> 00:43:39.400 you know, you've apprehended your target, you 00:43:39.400 --> 00:43:41.539 know, so we try to pursue this from an investigative 00:43:41.539 --> 00:43:44.420 standpoint Uh, you know, go into the fishing 00:43:44.420 --> 00:43:48.500 villages at nighttime with, uh, swabs to detect 00:43:48.500 --> 00:43:53.219 explosives on the boats, run a bomb drug through 00:43:53.219 --> 00:43:55.699 the village. Exactly. Yeah. Just go in there 00:43:55.699 --> 00:43:58.059 with a bomb detecting dog or check the boats. 00:43:58.260 --> 00:44:02.039 Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, we 00:44:02.039 --> 00:44:04.840 just try to think outside the box in enforcement. 00:44:05.460 --> 00:44:08.139 What do you run into? Like say, let's talk about 00:44:08.139 --> 00:44:11.159 trackers for a second. You mentioned, you know, 00:44:12.279 --> 00:44:14.420 It must be kind of daunting to keep track of 00:44:14.420 --> 00:44:16.059 what the foreign laws are, because, of course, 00:44:16.059 --> 00:44:18.320 in the US, you'd have to have a search warrant 00:44:18.320 --> 00:44:20.599 to put a tracker on a vehicle or a moving vessel 00:44:20.599 --> 00:44:23.219 like that. I know you do on cars. Do you have 00:44:23.219 --> 00:44:25.800 to have a warrant to put it on a boat? I assume 00:44:25.800 --> 00:44:28.420 you do. Well, you know I'm laughing, because 00:44:28.420 --> 00:44:30.199 there's no Fourth Amendment in some of these 00:44:30.199 --> 00:44:32.539 other countries. Yeah. Yeah, you mentioned that. 00:44:32.539 --> 00:44:34.280 That's what made me think of it. But at the same 00:44:34.280 --> 00:44:37.619 time, when you go in here to consult or to provide 00:44:37.619 --> 00:44:40.710 that backstopping, you kind of have to know, 00:44:40.849 --> 00:44:43.210 right? Or at least you have to consult them on 00:44:43.210 --> 00:44:46.469 what are your laws related to this, right? How 00:44:46.469 --> 00:44:49.130 do you - Yeah, so to kind of step back, when 00:44:49.130 --> 00:44:51.530 we go into a new country and we're working a 00:44:51.530 --> 00:44:54.750 new project area, and actually, I'm doing a new 00:44:54.750 --> 00:44:57.190 project now in South of May in Principe, Africa. 00:44:57.570 --> 00:45:00.949 But when we go into these countries, we do an 00:45:00.949 --> 00:45:03.789 assessment. So we look at their agency, we look 00:45:03.789 --> 00:45:06.570 at their law enforcement programs. Do they have 00:45:06.570 --> 00:45:09.320 equipment? Do they have personnel? And so we 00:45:09.320 --> 00:45:11.920 do an assessment. We look at their laws and their 00:45:11.920 --> 00:45:16.300 policies. Are the laws enforceable? Do they have 00:45:16.300 --> 00:45:22.699 policies to address pursuits, use of force, all 00:45:22.699 --> 00:45:25.679 the things that we take for granted in our agencies? 00:45:26.360 --> 00:45:29.400 So we do an assessment. What's the funding? Do 00:45:29.400 --> 00:45:31.300 they have adequate funding for their agencies? 00:45:31.820 --> 00:45:34.539 Training programs, community involvement. So 00:45:34.539 --> 00:45:37.980 we'll put together an assessment based on our 00:45:37.980 --> 00:45:40.800 analysis, and then we make recommendations. And 00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:42.980 so these recommendations will include training 00:45:42.980 --> 00:45:45.659 programs. It will include purchasing of equipment. 00:45:46.639 --> 00:45:50.400 And so we take this knowledge, and we try to 00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:53.440 develop programs to build the capacity of these 00:45:53.440 --> 00:45:56.900 nations. Right. A lot of it's investigative. 00:45:58.400 --> 00:46:02.539 Where we take it for advantage, we've been doing 00:46:02.539 --> 00:46:04.880 investigations for years. Well, many of these 00:46:04.880 --> 00:46:07.380 other countries, they struggle with just going 00:46:07.380 --> 00:46:11.579 on patrol. Yeah, right. So we bring in, hey, 00:46:11.719 --> 00:46:14.659 there's a better way, there's a less expensive 00:46:14.659 --> 00:46:18.659 way to do this and be more effective. Let's talk 00:46:18.659 --> 00:46:23.239 about, yeah, back to the GPS trackers. These 00:46:23.239 --> 00:46:25.780 countries don't have a lot of the hurdles that 00:46:25.780 --> 00:46:29.179 we have in the United States, right? Okay now 00:46:29.179 --> 00:46:32.079 granted we created these hurdles, you know, the 00:46:32.079 --> 00:46:34.239 reason you got to have You know a court order 00:46:34.239 --> 00:46:36.860 for a GPS tracker was because of the abuses that 00:46:36.860 --> 00:46:39.539 were going on exactly, right? You know, so we 00:46:39.539 --> 00:46:41.699 tried to you know consult with these countries 00:46:41.699 --> 00:46:45.579 don't make these mistakes Because bad cases make 00:46:45.579 --> 00:46:48.159 bad case law. That's right. Plus, of course, 00:46:48.260 --> 00:46:49.840 like you mentioned we have the Fourth Amendment, 00:46:49.840 --> 00:46:53.239 which is kind of unique Although some countries, 00:46:53.659 --> 00:46:57.039 surprisingly, have very strong laws protecting 00:46:57.039 --> 00:47:00.900 that type of right to privacy. Botswana, for 00:47:00.900 --> 00:47:03.480 example, very strong in that regard. So there 00:47:03.480 --> 00:47:05.179 are some countries out there that are a little 00:47:05.179 --> 00:47:07.659 more strict than us. There's countries, like 00:47:07.659 --> 00:47:09.659 for instance, one of the things you and I were 00:47:09.659 --> 00:47:13.179 comfortable with in our careers was If we were 00:47:13.179 --> 00:47:15.739 interviewing a suspect, it's totally permissible 00:47:15.739 --> 00:47:18.139 in the United States to lie to the suspect, to 00:47:18.139 --> 00:47:20.079 tell them, to hint to them that we might know 00:47:20.079 --> 00:47:24.059 more than we do or to say, you know, we have 00:47:24.059 --> 00:47:26.099 witnesses that put you at the location just to 00:47:26.099 --> 00:47:30.039 see how they'll react, right? But there are countries 00:47:30.039 --> 00:47:32.380 where that's completely illegal, where the law 00:47:32.380 --> 00:47:35.510 enforcement officers cannot lie to. to suspects 00:47:35.510 --> 00:47:38.150 they're interrogating or even just interviewing. 00:47:39.030 --> 00:47:43.849 So that's something to be cognizant of. What 00:47:43.849 --> 00:47:47.309 has been your experience working overseas with 00:47:47.309 --> 00:47:53.010 any corruption issues? It happens. And you do 00:47:53.010 --> 00:47:55.590 see some corruption in some of these countries. 00:47:57.849 --> 00:48:01.090 That is one of our teaching topics is ethics. 00:48:01.369 --> 00:48:05.400 I mean, we're pushing ethics. It may take 20 00:48:05.400 --> 00:48:07.280 years to fix it, but you got to start somewhere. 00:48:07.659 --> 00:48:10.139 Excellent. OK, good. And so, yeah, there's instance. 00:48:10.139 --> 00:48:11.980 And I'll tell you a little story when I was in 00:48:11.980 --> 00:48:14.639 Africa. I'm on the way home. I've taught for 00:48:14.639 --> 00:48:17.579 the week. I'm on the way to the airport. And 00:48:17.579 --> 00:48:20.619 I had heard about some corrupt police officers. 00:48:21.320 --> 00:48:23.960 So it's kind of in the back of my mind that something 00:48:23.960 --> 00:48:25.880 like this may eventually happen. But I'm on the 00:48:25.880 --> 00:48:29.559 way to the airport. And I get pulled over by 00:48:29.559 --> 00:48:32.559 one of the local police officers. Now, I haven't 00:48:32.559 --> 00:48:35.360 done anything wrong. Right? There's a lot of 00:48:35.360 --> 00:48:37.400 random police checkpoints throughout Africa. 00:48:37.900 --> 00:48:42.679 Every country in Africa. Yeah. And so the officer 00:48:42.679 --> 00:48:46.480 doesn't speak English. He speaks French. I don't 00:48:46.480 --> 00:48:49.960 speak French. So we're translating on my phone. 00:48:50.679 --> 00:48:53.920 Google Translate. Interesting. OK. So the officer 00:48:53.920 --> 00:48:55.639 tells me he's taking me to the police station. 00:48:55.800 --> 00:49:02.119 I owe $48 ,000. And I explained to him, no, I'm 00:49:02.119 --> 00:49:05.519 on the way to the airport. He says well, you 00:49:05.519 --> 00:49:08.599 know how this works you pay me on the scene. 00:49:08.659 --> 00:49:11.199 Mm -hmm So, I mean we're doing all this through 00:49:11.199 --> 00:49:15.539 the translation app. Mm -hmm. And so I'm supposed 00:49:15.539 --> 00:49:19.960 to board a plane in two hours, right? and so 00:49:19.960 --> 00:49:23.360 You know, I still you know, I still have you 00:49:23.360 --> 00:49:25.980 know My law enforcement credentials and so I 00:49:25.980 --> 00:49:28.519 pulled out my badge and said policia policia 00:49:28.519 --> 00:49:32.300 Americana policia nice Officer takes off running, 00:49:32.679 --> 00:49:36.519 leaves. What? Really? Now, it could have gone 00:49:36.519 --> 00:49:38.480 either way. I mean, he could have loaded me up 00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:40.980 and taken me to jail. You bet. Or I guess he 00:49:40.980 --> 00:49:43.860 chose that he needed to go extort somebody else. 00:49:45.679 --> 00:49:51.119 That is a great story. And it's so typical of 00:49:51.119 --> 00:49:54.099 what happens when you encounter corrupt police 00:49:54.099 --> 00:49:56.079 officers in different countries around the world. 00:49:56.380 --> 00:49:58.619 And they're everywhere. We even have corruption 00:49:58.619 --> 00:50:01.480 in the US. here, too. Of course, what I always 00:50:01.480 --> 00:50:05.280 say is it's not, corruption's going to occur 00:50:05.280 --> 00:50:07.619 because you've got human beings in law enforcement 00:50:07.619 --> 00:50:11.360 positions, right? The famous Jack Webb character 00:50:11.360 --> 00:50:14.300 from Dragnet back in the 60s said, he always 00:50:14.300 --> 00:50:16.619 said that the biggest problem with law enforcement 00:50:16.619 --> 00:50:18.980 is that law enforcement officers are human beings. 00:50:19.780 --> 00:50:23.880 And so you can't be, the issue is not, does corruption 00:50:23.880 --> 00:50:25.860 occur? The issue is, what do you do when you 00:50:25.860 --> 00:50:29.059 find it? Yes. And do you handle it? Do you make 00:50:29.059 --> 00:50:31.079 an example out of people? Do you hold them accountable? 00:50:31.159 --> 00:50:33.699 Or do you just say, well, that's how things are. 00:50:33.960 --> 00:50:37.699 And if you're in the latter, your country is 00:50:37.699 --> 00:50:39.519 going to go to hell in a handbasket pretty quick. 00:50:39.860 --> 00:50:45.079 If you deal with it, you can preserve your law 00:50:45.079 --> 00:50:47.880 and order in that country. What I always found, 00:50:49.099 --> 00:50:55.199 see if you share this experience, but when I 00:50:55.199 --> 00:50:57.719 worked with foreign law enforcement officers 00:50:57.719 --> 00:51:00.960 in countries that might have a higher reputation 00:51:00.960 --> 00:51:06.119 for corruption. My philosophy was it takes too 00:51:06.119 --> 00:51:08.800 much energy to kind of suss out who's likely 00:51:08.800 --> 00:51:10.599 to be corrupt and who's not. Sometimes you know. 00:51:10.619 --> 00:51:13.659 Sometimes you just aren't sure. So what I did 00:51:13.659 --> 00:51:16.480 was I gave them the benefit of the doubt. You're 00:51:16.480 --> 00:51:18.679 a police officer. I'm going to trust that you're 00:51:18.679 --> 00:51:20.559 going to do the right thing until you prove otherwise 00:51:20.559 --> 00:51:24.820 to me. And I'd give them that trust. And what 00:51:24.820 --> 00:51:28.800 I always found was even sometimes when I suspected 00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:33.360 an officer might be corrupt, I found that sometimes 00:51:33.360 --> 00:51:36.320 just working with me or working with another 00:51:36.320 --> 00:51:39.039 US law enforcement officer, say from FBI or Homeland 00:51:39.039 --> 00:51:42.599 Security, in that particular case we were working 00:51:42.599 --> 00:51:45.699 on with them, they would not be corrupt because, 00:51:45.699 --> 00:51:48.400 God forbid, they did not want to get caught by 00:51:48.400 --> 00:51:50.599 the Americans being corrupt because it would 00:51:50.599 --> 00:51:55.690 be horribly shameful. And they want to work with 00:51:55.690 --> 00:51:58.869 Americans as peers. And so I found sometimes 00:51:58.869 --> 00:52:01.590 you might have an officer who's otherwise totally 00:52:01.590 --> 00:52:04.329 corrupt, but you can trust them on this case 00:52:04.329 --> 00:52:07.570 because they know you're watching. Yeah. And 00:52:07.570 --> 00:52:10.469 another great, great model that we like to use 00:52:10.469 --> 00:52:14.789 is identify those shining stars, young officers 00:52:14.789 --> 00:52:19.130 that will make a difference 10 years from now. 00:52:19.130 --> 00:52:22.800 Right. Because they'll be in command staff. They're 00:52:22.800 --> 00:52:25.579 not going to tolerate these discrepancies and 00:52:25.579 --> 00:52:28.320 this corruption. Exactly. And you can do that. 00:52:28.400 --> 00:52:31.320 You can build that kind of pride in their work. 00:52:33.159 --> 00:52:35.380 It sounds like you're doing exactly that in the 00:52:35.380 --> 00:52:38.579 Bahamas, which is great. You're identifying the 00:52:38.579 --> 00:52:42.440 superstars and helping them succeed. What do 00:52:42.440 --> 00:52:44.639 you think the future is for Bahamas on this issue 00:52:44.639 --> 00:52:49.079 in dealing with illegal transitory commercial 00:52:49.079 --> 00:52:51.139 fishing vessels coming in out of their waters? 00:52:52.239 --> 00:52:54.320 Yeah, they're going to be very effective at it. 00:52:54.539 --> 00:52:56.719 They've got the tools now. They've got the techniques. 00:52:56.800 --> 00:52:59.800 They've got the experience. They're going to 00:52:59.800 --> 00:53:02.039 be very effective in curtailing this activity. 00:53:02.599 --> 00:53:04.239 And it sounds like there are judicial systems 00:53:04.239 --> 00:53:06.340 on top of it too, right? They understand the 00:53:06.340 --> 00:53:07.900 significance and the importance, and they're 00:53:07.900 --> 00:53:10.880 dishing out some fairly good penalties against 00:53:10.880 --> 00:53:13.960 people. Oh, the judicial system, their leadership, 00:53:14.679 --> 00:53:17.739 yes, they're all on board. Excellent. That's 00:53:17.739 --> 00:53:19.920 good. Sometimes, of course, countries, the law 00:53:19.920 --> 00:53:21.860 enforcement understands the conservation issue 00:53:21.860 --> 00:53:24.079 or the importance, but the judiciary might not. 00:53:24.400 --> 00:53:27.420 So they hand out weaker sentences. Well, this 00:53:27.420 --> 00:53:30.639 is a great story, and it's unfolding. So listeners, 00:53:31.019 --> 00:53:34.639 watchers, if you Google Operation Red Dawn 1, 00:53:34.900 --> 00:53:37.099 2, you can read the news stories about it. And 00:53:37.099 --> 00:53:40.380 you'll see this is still in operations that are. 00:53:40.599 --> 00:53:43.780 ongoing unfolding in the news as we speak so 00:53:43.780 --> 00:53:46.800 there's probably more to come certainly on operation 00:53:46.800 --> 00:53:51.619 red dawn to george fascinating i'm so glad you 00:53:51.619 --> 00:53:53.699 came on to talk about this particular issue since 00:53:53.699 --> 00:53:57.840 it is in the news right now it does involve americans 00:53:57.840 --> 00:53:59.900 and involves fish species that are important 00:53:59.900 --> 00:54:04.179 to americans important to bohemians and obviously 00:54:04.179 --> 00:54:06.219 you know we have territories in the caribbean 00:54:06.219 --> 00:54:08.940 so we have a very shared interest with the other 00:54:08.940 --> 00:54:11.420 nations in the Caribbean. So appreciate the work 00:54:11.420 --> 00:54:15.519 you're doing. It's amazing. Good job. Oh, it's 00:54:15.519 --> 00:54:18.780 a blast. We're having fun doing it. Really great. 00:54:19.039 --> 00:54:20.960 And I assume you'll continue working. You're 00:54:20.960 --> 00:54:23.440 working with Wild Aid you mentioned, right? Yes. 00:54:24.059 --> 00:54:26.260 Yeah. And you have other ongoing projects with 00:54:26.260 --> 00:54:30.500 them. So we'll be watching for other George Wilson 00:54:30.500 --> 00:54:34.769 news in the future. All right, my friend, thank 00:54:34.769 --> 00:54:36.590 you so much for joining us. I appreciate it. 00:54:36.590 --> 00:54:38.510 We'll have you on again to talk about Operation 00:54:38.510 --> 00:54:41.070 Wild Web and many other things. Thanks for your 00:54:41.070 --> 00:54:44.329 time. Thank you, Ed. You bet. All right, everybody. 00:54:44.670 --> 00:54:47.690 Take care. We'll see you next time. Nature's 00:54:47.690 --> 00:54:49.730 Secret Service is written and produced by me, 00:54:49.829 --> 00:54:52.630 Ed Newcomer, and is co -produced by the DHTV 00:54:52.630 --> 00:54:55.530 team here at California State University, Dominguez 00:54:55.530 --> 00:54:57.809 Hills. Follow us on social media and connect 00:54:57.809 --> 00:55:00.469 with us online at naturessecretservice .com.