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Okay, people, listen up. Here we go. This is
Nature's Secret Service, the podcast that puts
you in the room with the men and women of wildlife
law enforcement. I'm Ed Newcomer, your host.
And today we have with us a guest, Captain Dan
Brinson, retired wildlife officer from the state
of Washington, formerly with the Washington Department
of Fish and Wildlife Police. And he's appearing
with us or from his home in Washington state.
Dan, thanks for being on the podcast. I really
appreciate it. Good to see you. Thank you for
inviting me. Yeah. When I thought about doing
this podcast years ago, I kind of put together
in my head a list of people who I would want
to have on. And you were on. the short list on
the list. And I think listeners and watchers
will understand why pretty quickly. Dan, I introduced
you as a retired captain with the Washington
Department of Fish and Wildlife, but you had
a long career with the state of Washington as
a conservation law enforcement officer. And during
that time, state of Washington went through some
changes in growth in terms of how they organized
their conservation law enforcement. And I want
you to kind of explain that to everybody. But
first, I want to know, you and I have never really
talked about this before. We met probably in
the mid late 90s, somewhere between 95 and 97
probably. But I have a recollection of how we
met, but I'm not sure it's accurate. What's your
recollection of how we met? I'm trying to remember.
the first time we met. I don't know if you had
just walked over from the AG's office where you
were and came in and introduced yourself around.
I must have happened to be there at the time.
But I remember, what I remember is like, here's
this attorney coming over wanting to be a game
warden. You know, I thought it was cool. It's
like, oh, great. You know, Finally, there'll
be somebody else smarter than me here. No, just
kidding. But yeah, no, we got along great. I
think we did some ride -alongs, maybe on a boat
even. I'm trying to remember. But you were fascinated
by the idea of our work and you made a very good
impression and we became fast friends. you even
became a, I think you were in the process of
being a reserve officer, but also you put in
to be an actual paid officer and you were selected,
you were ready to go to the academy and then
life happens and you had some immediate family
to take care of in Colorado and off you went.
And then next thing I know, you're a special
agent. Next thing you know, I'm Ed. Okay, that's
good because that's pretty close to what I remember.
You know, I think people who've listened to this
podcast before kind of have gotten the gist or
maybe I've said it before I became a special
agent for US Fish and Wildlife. I was a practicing
lawyer and when I lived in Washington state,
I was an assistant attorney general for the state
of Washington and But from the moment I graduated
from law school, I wanted to become a conservation
law enforcement officer. So at that time, right
after I graduated, I looked at fisheries patrol
officer. And I don't think I ended up applying
for that job because I wanted to be more, I think,
wildlife. And then I also started applying to
be a US Fish and Wildlife Service Special Agent.
But even with this, as you know, even getting
in with the state is not easy. getting in with
the feds is not easy either. And I never, I was
kind of naive about that. So when I graduated
from law school, I thought I'm a little cocky.
I thought I have a law degree. I'll get in. And
I didn't, so I kept working as a lawyer as I
was applying for these jobs. So I kind of always
say I accidentally practiced law, but anyway,
back to the point of how we met, um, My office
at the Attorney General's office, the window
of my office actually overlooked the courtyard
between the Attorney General's building in Olympia
and the Department of Natural Resources building.
And in the main floor of the DNR building was
the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife
Law Enforcement office. And it's just so happened
that in the DNR building was the cafeteria for
both buildings. Okay, there you go. And you like
that food better? Well, we didn't have one in
the AG's office. We didn't have our own cafeteria.
So if we wanted to eat at the cafeteria, we had
to walk over to the DNR building across the courtyard.
So what I think I did, I used to kind of stalk
you guys. I would look for the uniform. I would
look for the uniformed officers eating lunch
if they happen to be at the headquarters. And
I think, I think I kind of like, and just walked
up to you and like invited myself to join you
for lunch, I think. Yeah, you know, that does
ring a bell. I can, yeah. I think you're back
to me now. Yeah. I think you were with another
officer, might've been Greg Hall. I'm not sure,
but yeah, I think I just kind of invited myself.
Here I was, you know, I wore a suit and tie every
day and I was so nervous. You guys were going
to think, I knew you'd be polite to me, but I
thought you'd probably giggle about me after
I left. Say, you know, who's this idiot wants
to be a game warden, you know, but I had stalked
you and you, you were very, very kind to me.
And there are two people in my career, Dan, that
I credit with getting me into wildlife law enforcement.
And you're one of them. And you're the first
one really, because you're the first one that
really took an interest in my interest. And,
uh, you know, made it feel like it was something
I could do, and it wasn't stupid. You know, when
you're, here I was, most people go from law enforcement
to practicing law, and here I was trying to do
the opposite. And, you know, I was self -conscious
about it, because my feeling was most people
would look at me and be like, you're an idiot,
what are you doing? Why are you doing this? And
you didn't, you kind of instantly understood
why I wanted to be in that role. And yeah, the
first thing you did was you invited me to go
out with you on I think it was the opening day
of the shrimp season. Okay. Yeah. So that was
a really awesome introduction. I don't know if
you planned it that way because maybe, you know,
being on a boat all day and pulling shrimp pots
was something you were like, well, let's test
this dude and see if he's really interested.
I don't know. Did I force you to eat a raw shrimp
that day? Yeah, of course you did. That was part
of the tradition, right? That's right. Yeah.
Yeah, but then we did, you know, you invited
me to go on a number of ride alongs, which was
really eye opening for me. I got to ride with
you and other officers and see what the work
was like. Um, we went on multiple boat patrols,
I think. And then, uh, yeah, you, I think here
at the time you were a sergeant and you were
in charge of the, uh, reserve. Right. Yeah. Right.
Yeah. You were the sergeant for the Marine detachment
there in Olympia. And, uh, Yeah, I started the
process to get signed up as a river reservist,
but there was something weird going on with the
department's program It wasn't it had it had
lapsed and then it came back So it right it never
I think I was on paper, but I never went through
the training or anything, right? Yeah. Yeah,
and then actually yeah you helped me get hired
as a wildlife officer for the Washington Department
of Fish and Wildlife and I was all set to do
that and then as you say life happens and I ended
up going to colorado for a few years before i
became an agent anyway long story in my view
i i owe my career in great part to dan brinson
and your. The things you taught me i mean honestly.
Throughout my career there were lessons that
i learned from just doing ride along with you
are being on boat patrols are just shooting the
shit with you right there lessons i learned that
i carried with me my whole career that that i.
utilized in doing my work. Well, thank you for
saying that. I'm honored to be that guy. If I
really was that guy, I'm honored to be him. I'll
wear that badge with pride. You definitely were.
And you know, everybody in their life needs a
guy like that, right? Or a gal. You need somebody
that kind of helps guide you on how do you do
this? Where do you go? What do you do next, right?
Yep. Yep. So let's get to this We've had guests
on who have been with Washington Department of
Fish and Wildlife. So we had Todd Vandivert on
early in this season. Just the other day, I was
trying to catch up on all your episodes. Cool.
Yeah, I had never met Todd before. He came on
the show, but very interesting work that he did.
And then a number of agents who I knew at Fish
and Wildlife Service, US Fish and Wildlife, who
were friends of mine and I worked with, had been
former Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife.
Officers Steve Furr and Corky Roberts were both
former. So can you explain really? So you mentioned
you started as a fisheries patrol officer. That's
correct. Yeah, so. So prior to the merger of
94, her I think was around our merger. The the
state of Washington had two different agencies.
for conservation law enforcement had the Washington
Department of Fisheries and then the Washington
Department of Game. The Department of Game was,
you know, had had the Fish and Wildlife or the
Game Commission at the time. And, you know, that's
they were their policy was directed by the commission
like like we are now again. The Department of
Fisheries was different in the way that we work
directly, you know, as any agency would through
the governor's office and Uh, we had maybe 50
at the most, uh, commission personnel. Uh, the
department of game was much larger because they
covered every nook and cranny of the state. And
as fisheries patrol, we were primarily saltwater,
uh, in the commercial. Well, our authority was
over salmon and, uh, food fish and. uh in shellfish
of course okay yeah so so we worked uh together
quite a bit um in fact uh Todd Vandivert and
I were we worked together practically as partners
for well my first seven or eight years of my
career so I learned a lot from Todd I mean he's
brilliant um but yeah so then then the department
merged and that was Well, that was a time of
some some real turmoil because being such similar
agencies, there was kind of a sibling rivalry
between the two, you know. Right. And of course,
once we merged in, all the fish cops had to teach,
you know, teach the game wardens, you know what?
What a you know what an oyster looks like and
of course they just look at and go that's just
a small get pile, you know Then a bunch of them
fled to the eastern Washington where they didn't
have to do that kind of work Prior to 94 like
let's say during a busy season So back when there
were two agencies fishery during a busy season
of say salmon with the game officers ever help
you or was it truly said no no they did yeah
no they they did they did um not uh the the timing
was kind of wrong for that was the peak salmon
season is also all the hunting seasons so but
when they could sure yeah Yep, they did. We worked
together. Like I say, there was the rivalries
and some places it was really hot and they wouldn't
talk to each other. Other places like here, you
know, we got along great and, you know, Todd
could work fishery stuff as long as the sergeant
didn't find out about it, you know, that kind
of thing. Got it, got it, got it. Sonical, let
me think back about it. Yeah, and it was, I'm
sure it was mostly friendly, you know. Oh yeah,
yeah. Yeah, friendly banter for sure. And then
sometimes people took it too far. So in 94, the
two agencies merged and they become the Washington
Department of Fish and Wildlife. And I assume
you had two chains of command that had to be
mixed, right? Yeah. Yeah. And that was luckily
I was, I was still an officer at the time. So
I wasn't in all that turmoil of, you know, One
chief trying to surpass the other chief and et
cetera, et cetera. But it came together with
a mixture of both in our administration. And
then basically what that meant was you had wildlife
officers who were responsible for everything,
whether it was commercial fishing, recreational
fishing, salmon fishing, trout fishing, game
hunting, all of it, right? Correct, yes. And
you know just for listeners are people who are
watching on youtube you know just picture the
state of washington the entire west side of courses
is the pacific ocean on the coast and which can't
forget ever is that. There's a huge you know
you just sound is huge and all the major cities
seattle to coma olympia are on the sound so you
have a huge recreational fishery their recreational.
uh shellfish uh habits practice you have native
american issues from the bolt decision and then
off the coast there you have commercial fishing
which also involves salmon and other fish that
yeah and there's commercial fishing you know
in the sound as well too so yeah right right
and then there's other conservation issues too
such as you know whales uh and seals and sea
lions make their way into Puget Sound even killer
whales are in there occasionally So. For me what
the things that i was struck me that was tough
about washington working in washington was like.
You know obviously salmon they move from salt
water to freshwater right so you end up having
you end up having these two issues where you
got a commercial fishery for salmon then they
got a recreational fishery and then they move
into the rivers and you have a totally different
group of people that are targeting them for whatever
right yeah. And then boy, I don't even have it
on my list to talk about Native American issues.
As you know, so complex to be a fish and wildlife
officer in Washington. I mean, your head just
spins all the time when you get a call and it's
like, okay, it could, you know, what if it's
a tribal person and as usual in a custom area,
you know, just throwing the net in a river. So
is that, you know, do they have the season open?
I got to call the tribal police now and find
out. Yeah, it's very complex, very complex. Yeah,
I would say working in Washington is probably
right up there with working in Alaska, where
there's really complicated native rights. Yeah,
you always have to keep in the back of your mind.
It's like having a totally different rule book.
Right. Right. And every tribe is an individual
government. So it's not so when, you know, well,
we're getting way off beat, but but you you know,
you you sit down with the with a tribe and maybe
like as a captain to try to work out some issue.
And the very first thing that happens is, you
know, they're they're chairman of the of the
tribe, basically the president of their of their
nation. Right. comes in and wants to know, you
know, where's your director? I want to talk to
you. Why am I here at my level talking to somebody
that's like four levels equivalent below? Yeah,
exactly. So you're not only do you have an enforcement
role there when you're dealing with Native Americans
that you have to sort out that's different than
when you're dealing with non -Natives, but you
almost have a geopolitical issue you have to
deal with. Government relationships, right? Yeah,
and it could be a big deal if an officer screws
up the relationship with a tribe. That could
really cause problems for the department. Oh,
yes. Oh, yes. Very much so. And that's where
good relationships with the tribal police are,
you know, critical. So important. And, you know,
I'll have to say that in the field, tribal officers
and our officers, there is great. Where it gets
more complicated, it's the more up the chain
you get with you know, policy and procedure and
legal issues and all that. Yeah, you know, that
is so true across law enforcement, just as one
other side, you know, while I was an agent, I
obviously it's federal agents, we work with other
federal agencies. And while I was overseas, I
worked with foreign agencies and I had the same
experience, you know, the relationship with the
field people was always great like you know a
field agent with homeland security or fbi great
right um an officer with the zimbabwean forestry
department great but further up the chain command
you go there might start to be issues that that
uh where there's conflict you know for sure In
fact, you know, one time, uh, speaking to tribal
police, there's always been a very close relationship
between tribal police agencies and the U S fish
and wildlife service. Cause of course, yes. Department
of Indian affairs is under department of interior,
just like fish and wildlife. But, um, I, one
time I was doing a ride along back when I was
a lawyer before I was an agent and I was with,
uh, Matt Nixon and we were, we were making a
traffic stop and it was a carload of people.
I don't know what they had been poaching, some
type of shellfish. Matt was looking for backup
over the radio. And the very first and only officers
that showed up were tribal police officers. So
testament to the relationship there. Hey, one
more thing I was going to ask you about the structure.
Eventually, Washington Department of Fish and
Wildlife added police to the end of their title.
Yes. When did that happen? Well, that would have
come about kind of well. I'll make a long story
short, but I'm trying to remember the year that
we had a bill passed that gave us general authority,
made us general authority police officers. So
the philosophy behind going from enforcement
program on our patch to police was, well, partly
to represent that change in being fully general
authority police officers. And then partly also,
Bruce Bjork was chief that's come from the state
patrol. And his thought behind it was that because
we work with so many different nationalities
that are here, Some don't speak English, but
the police is very recognizable no matter where
you come from. If you see something that says
police on it, you're dealing with the law, with
the police officer. And so that was the theory
behind that, to put the police on that, representing
what we really are and making it more easy. for
people to understand that. That makes total sense.
I hadn't thought of that. I figured it had something
to do with authorities and jurisdiction issues,
but that's actually very kind of insightful,
actually. Yeah, yeah. It was taken by some to
be stepping away from our... responsibility as
conservation law enforcement officers. You know,
a lot of people had different opinions. When
I say a lot of people, I mean, inside, inside
our program, different opinions about it. So
you've probably heard, you know, people making
fun of, of us thinking that we had to add police
to our badge or whatever. But, but that was the
reason. Yeah, that's it. I never heard anybody
mock it. And this leads into an excellent discussion
I want to have with you about law enforcement
authorities. But before we do that, I did want
to have you explain, every state's organized
a little differently. So you were an officer,
and then you became a sergeant. What does a sergeant
do in the Washington Department of Fish and Life?
Who do they supervise, and what areas do they?
Right, yeah. So a sergeant, the sergeant position
is the best position that you could get. I'm
sorry I never went further than that. You know,
in hindsight, I was having so much fun as a sergeant.
A sergeant has the supervision over the detachment,
like a, you know, a couple of counties, maybe.
So the way we're organized is we have six regions,
and then within each of those regions, there's
a number of detachments. Each detachment has
Oh, maybe as low as three officers as much as
seven or eight. And the sergeant is in charge
of those and in charge of the field issues for
that geographic area. Got it. Okay. And then
you became a captain. So what is the captain's
responsibility? The captain then is responsible
for that entire region. So there's six captains,
one for each region. And I was the captain in
in region six, stationed out of Montesano for,
gosh, well, I was captain for 13 years and 10
of those were as a regional captain. And then
I moved to headquarters and, well, long story
short, I retired my commission at 30 years because
I got in a horrible car accident off duty. Right.
crush my spinal cord, have some, you know, have
a limp now and this and that. But long story,
I'm glad to still be here. We're all glad you're
here, Dan. I wasn't able to continue on in the
law enforcement role because of the physical
requirements. So I did land a manager's position
in the wildlife program and spent the next four
years there until I retired. Right, right. Yeah,
no, we were I wasn't gonna bring up your accident,
but we're all definitely After captain though
in the department it goes what deputy chief Yeah,
yeah goes deputy chief and then And then chief
and then chief. Yeah, and now they've restructured
since I retired and I think they've Well, we
had lieutenants That's true. So before I retired,
yeah, you'd be a lieutenant. So yeah, you could
go sergeant, uh, detective or then lieutenant
and then captain and deputy chief. Got it. Okay.
And I could be wrong now. I mean, they've changed
the, you know, when, when the chief bear came
in, um, and Paul Golden, I don't know, do you
know Paul Golden is, is the deputy chief? No,
I don't. Okay. All right. Good. Great guy. But,
um, but yeah, so they did some restructuring
and I think now they might have corporals or
something. Oh, okay. Yeah. Interesting. It, you
know, the, uh, back to now to the adding police
to the moniker and authorities, um, you mentioned
one of the reasons was to give wildlife officers
in Washington general law enforcement authority.
And this issue has always been interesting to
me because You know in the prior to that it was
if you were enforcing the basically acting as
a state wildlife officer then you can enforce
any other law. Right and i remember there was
always a conflict like inevitably there was some
wildlife officer this is before you guys change
to general authority back in the nineties when
i was around. They were some officer who would
see somebody driving recklessly or you know do
something really grossly illegal traffic offense
in front of them and they pull them over. Right
and some supervisors at department of fish and
wildlife in washington really great good for
you. Others were like what the hell are you doing
that's not right. And i think it always kind
of shocked my conscience because the same exact
thing happened in the u .s. fish and wildlife
service when i got hired. Our law enforcement
authority in the US Fish and Wildlife Service
comes from the Lacey Act. And the way the Lacey
Act is written, it says officers of the US Fish
and Wildlife Service have authority to enforce
all laws of the United States while enforcing
this act. Right, yeah. It's like, oh boy, right?
And some supervisors in the US Fish and Wildlife
Service viewed that as you couldn't enforce any
Aspect of title eighteen which is the general
criminal code unless you were actively in the
process of in that moment enforcing the lacy
apple. I thought that was crazy and other other
supervisor if you did as well we're always enforcing
the lacy act everywhere we go you're always looking
for a solution right. So it creates confusion
most importantly among supervisors which i think
is very dangerous because it doesn't give. field
personnel, a clear understanding of what they
are supposed to do, what they can do, right?
And my view on this, I want to see what your
view is. As a civilian, I always took my mom
as the example. What would my mom think, right?
And yeah, she does not law enforcement. She sees
a marked vehicle, like a Washington Department
of Fish and Wildlife marked game warden vehicle.
There's a uniform person in it carrying a gun
with a silver badge on their chest and some egregious
reckless driving event happens in front of them
and they don't do anything right. My mom would
view that as dereliction of duty she would expect
a law enforcement officer to enforce the law.
Or if you take it to its extreme. If you had
a supervisor that didn't understand the Lord
wasn't. willing to creatively like interpret
it in a way that furthers public safety. You
can imagine a scenario where there is a U .S.
Fish and Wildlife Service agent out in public,
armed, plain clothes, or there's a Washington
Department of Fish and Wildlife officer out in
public and views a violent crime or a more serious
crime and hesitates by asking themselves, do
I have authority to intervene here? Right. And
that's a bad situation, right? Sure. Yeah. The
general authority clears that all up. Clears
it up. I've got an example. So prior to that,
uh, I think, I think I was working with Greg
Ha and, and we were patrolling, you know, the
shellfish beaches come along on the highway,
come along. And here's this car parked off to
the side with this obviously inebriated man,
um, leaning up against the car, taking a leak,
you know, And so I drive by, I go to the next
driveway and pull in and sit and wait for him
to get back in his car and pull him over his
DUI. He goes to court and the sharp lawyer, he
convinced the judge that it wasn't during doing
my duty because I stopped doing my shellfish
patrol and pulled into that driveway and waited.
And so therefore I was no longer being a fish
cop. Right. And so my stop was illegal. And did
the judge buy it? Yeah. Yeah. Man. That's crazy.
Right. There's the example why you need general
authority. Yep. They said if I would have pulled
in behind him. Then that would be one thing and
contacted him then. But that's not how you make
a DUI case when somebody's outside their vehicle,
right? So anyway, let's start there, but yeah,
no, it's a lesson that needs to be taken into
seriously by any state that still has this issue,
right? Or even federal agencies that might have
this issue because you know, I was briefly a
supervisor for. US Fish and Wildlife Service
in LA, and I always told my agents, you are always
enforcing the Lacey Act on or off duty. Because
we had authority to carry when we were off duty,
so you're always looking for a Lacey Act violation,
period. We didn't do patrol work, but that's
patrol work. You're always watching, looking
for a violation. So you're always enforcing the
act, and therefore, if you see a violation of
Title 18, some criminal if you don't hesitate
to deal with it. But not every supervisor in
the US Fish and Wildlife Service felt that way,
and I'm sure there's still some that don't view
it that way. But to me, that is not a very creative
way to go about supervising people or enforcing
the law, because you are a public safety officer
in the end, even if your job is primarily wildlife
crime. Well, there's a fine line, too, because
the big difference between pulling over somebody
that blew past you at 90 miles an hour or pulling
somebody over because you notice their tabs are
expired. Officers and supervisors need to really
impress upon their staff that we are fish and
wildlife first. If you're Oh, I, Rugged Justice,
you remember that one? Yes. When we were on Rugged
Justice? Yes. One of the episodes, they were
riding with an officer that was work, you know,
you go to work a boat ramp as a fish and wildlife
officer so that you can watch people come in
and contact them and check their catch and all
of that. Right. But this guy was driving around
the parking lot looking for expired tabs that
he could send a ticket to. General authority
should be for a conservation officer. General
authority should be a tool to be used in conjunction
with their duties, but not something to stray
away from their duties. And so there's a fine
line there. No that's a good point and for me
the way i would describe it would be see if you
did agree with this it would be that's a performance
issue right versus an authority issue right no
question the officer has authority to write that
ticket but. That's a performance issue that needs
to be dealt with cuz that officers not focusing
on the right things for their job. Yeah, that'd
be like, you know, there's lots of examples.
It'd be like a secret service agent focusing
on something, a drug, you know, DEA stuff, you
know? Yeah. They can do it, but not really there.
Yeah. I mean, the way it's supposed to happen
is those things fall in your lap while you're
doing... Yes. I mean, I don't know how many drug
cases I was involved in, but that was because,
you know, because I... You know contact them
and and they have drugs on them or whatever,
you know where they have a warrant and so they
go to jail You know that kind of stuff, but your
primary focus is on protecting fish and wildlife.
Yeah I don't know if you remember this or not,
but Greg Hall used to be he was an officer with
Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife who
was on your marine detachment when I knew you
When I was hanging out with you back then the
he used to be able to look at somebody who he
was approaching And he'd say he would say i'm
gonna go we're gonna find drugs in this guy's
sock we're gonna find drugs in this guy. Underwear
whatever i don't know i was never with him when
he wasn't right oh yeah yeah he had the nose
for. For finding finding something wrong yeah
no he had very good instinct on that absolutely
he really did and you know one of the things
i learned from you you did too. You taught me
something called the oh shit look. Can you explain
the shit look? I guess that's when they first
realized they're going to be contacted and they
know there's that, you know, they know that they've
got something illegal on board or they're using
illegal gear or whatever. And yeah, you get that,
that deer in the headlight look. Um, and yeah,
when you recognize that, you know, you're onto
something. Yep, I can't tell you how many times
I was with you and you were like, oh, I just
got the oh shit look and a hundred percent of
the time when you told me we could just got the
oh shit look, you found violations on it. Yeah,
yeah, never failed skills you develop. Yeah,
it is. It's yeah, it's developed those and that.
Yeah, I like I like to think that's what makes
game wardens apart from some of our, you know,
some of the other. types of law enforcement is
is it really. You really have to develop the
skill to be able to get where you need to go
in an investigation and you know a lot of its
instinct but it's not really instinct if it's
if it's work for you time and time again. You
know it's just one of those things that you you
don't really know how you develop the skill it's
almost like a subconscious skill you just kind
of know. And, uh, it's hard. You couldn't really
articulate how, you know, you just do. And it's
built up over a series of many, many, many experiences
that you probably don't even consciously register
ranch. Yeah. Yeah. And then, and interesting
too, you, you and I, I think shared the same
philosophy about officer discretion, which I
think sometimes many people in law enforcement
do not really understand officer discretion.
Um, it's kind of, I think unique in uh, free
societies for sure. We, um, officers, just a
regular officer out there in the field has a
lot of discretion about when and how they enforce
the law against people. And in some countries
that might be viewed as corruption, right? But
in the U S it's not because it's not like the
officers taking something in exchange for one
behavior or another. But when you were a captain
and when you were a Sergeant, how did you view
Officer discretion in terms of how you wanted
your people to operate Did you want them to be
black and white and you broke the law you're
getting cited or how did you view that whole
thing? Just the opposite of that Yeah, but discretion
is one of your biggest responsibilities as a
law enforcement officer and you have to use it
wisely and you and you need to use it when what
you know, I mean, there's a big difference between
between some guy and his son fishing and maybe
he doesn't have a license, but he's casting for
the kid and handling the rod. So technically
he's fishing. Well, use your discretion. I mean,
he's given an orientation to his son about...
the great stuff that's available to do outdoors,
and then you go in and ruin it for them because
you need that ticket. In fact, we had for a period
of time, our chief was wanting us to have to
put quotas on. targets. But so what happens then
is somebody writes a ticket that they otherwise
wouldn't have because they're worried that they're
not going to write enough tickets. And I actually
stood my ground as the captain and said, no,
not in my region. We are not having quotas. And
so I developed some weird mathematical things
on how I could evaluate their performance without
using quotas as a ticket. or as a measure. And
I was able to do that. But I was the only region
in the state where the officers didn't have an
actual quota. Good for you. Good for you. Because
I think there are intangible benefits sometimes
to an officer making a decision in the field,
right? Oh, yeah. And some of it comes down to
that kind of unconscious. Experience that you've
had and you know what who you have in front of
you was a person who goofed up, right? They don't
need to have their entire weekend and the experience
with their children and and They're just impression
of fishing or hunting to be ruined, right? They
need they're probably scared to death already
that you contacted them, right? Sure sure And
then there are other people who are actively,
they don't give a shit and they're actively trying
to break the law and they're sneaking around
and they're looking for you when you come and
they lie to you when you talk. Those are the
ones you want. Yep. Those are the ones you want.
I was going to say something very insightful
and intelligent and I can't remember what it
was. Let me ask you this on that regard. Well,
how would you describe those intangible benefits?
But for example, I remember one time I was with
you and I think we were maybe a guy was crabbing
and he was with his son and they were they had
too many crabs and I remember you, you know,
you walked away and you and I had a conversation
and you just were kind of educating me on what
you're thinking. You said hey, the guy's like
two crabs over or whatever. He's here with his
10 year old son. I don't want to ruin crab fishing
for this kid. So you did not cite him. Right.
So what's the bigger benefit to, you know, some
people might say, well, he was two crabs over.
He needs a ticket. What's the bigger benefit
there? Well, yeah, I mean, you're you're representing
your agency and you're trying to create or maintain
a good image for for the entire agency. So, you
know, the old he'll go and tell two people the
story about. how great, you know, how professional
and great those two guys were when they contacted
me. And they'll tell two people, and it's the
same story, and each of those will tell two,
you know, and the story gets out. Same, unfortunately,
with when a person, you know, if a person doesn't
use discretion and they leave, you know, and
they tell two people about... the chickenship
ticket that they got and the word spreads. Now,
I will say though, the version of the person
who got cited and the reality of the contact
are very two different versions usually, almost
always. Almost always, yeah, almost always. I
teach criminal justice at Cal State and sometimes
my students will say things like, you know, How
come one person doesn't get a traffic ticket
from a LAPD officer and another person did the
exact same traffic offense and they do get a
ticket? And they kind of are talking about it
as if it's a negative that officers have the
discretion to make the call. But I think in a
free society, we want officers to have a lot
of discretion. We don't want them taking bribes.
We don't want them giving favorites to people
based on race or pretty woman or whatever. we
want officers to be able to look at who they
have in front of them and make a call. The totality
of the circumstances. Totality of the circumstances.
Yeah. You've got to weigh everything in and decide
whether a citation is the way to educate the
person or they can be, you know, it's a minor
offense and you can educate them without the
citation and maybe even have a better result.
Exactly. Yeah. Now, before we move on, did you
remember the insightful thing you wanted to say?
Yeah, I think I was going to say we didn't want
those back on the discretion issue or on the
quota issue. And that was I never wanted to I
never wanted an officer to feel like they had
to write a ticket that they wouldn't otherwise
have done just because they're trying to reach
a number. Exactly. I think that's a perfect place
to end our discussion on discretion. That's yeah.
I think that's what made you a great supervisor,
Dan. One of the things, you know, in this show,
you and I are having a very kind of broad ranging
general discussion on this podcast. One of the
things I try to focus on are bigger issues, bigger,
bigger problems, areas where wildlife conservation
law enforcement officers are involved in, you
know, bigger picture issues, mostly like trafficking
and saving species versus animals, things like
that. One of the things that Washington Was into
back when i was there in the nineties i think
i assume they still are because she is shellfish
enforcement and the reasons for their focus on
shellfish enforcement i think will kind of surprise
people and before and before you explain it.
I think most people just assume it's a conservation
issue but it's not and i just want to point out
that you know. People who do not are not familiar
with the Pacific Northwest and Washington State
in particular You have to understand that the
Puget Sound has over 2 ,500 miles 2 ,500 miles
of coastline just you know, that's the inside
of the sound So that's a huge area and a lot
of it is prime habitat for shellfish And can
you explain why is Washington Department of Fish
and Wildlife so interested in shellfish enforcement
and why is that so important? Right, yeah, you're
right. It's not a conservation issue. It's a
human safety and health issue. Why? So here's
the scenario, right? So the Department of Health
and the U .S. FDA, their programs ensure that
the contaminated clams from pollution or sewer
or whatever are restricted from being commercially
harvested and sold into the market. And so we
have areas that are closed for those reasons,
like dyes inlet and up in Bremerton, you know,
it gets all the runoff from the city streets.
It has sewer outlets all over the place. During
heavy rainfalls, their sewer system sometimes
fail and the overflow goes right in into the
water and it's prime habitat for like clams and
oysters, particularly clams, manila clams, steamers.
So those areas are closed, but they are absolutely
rich in clams. I mean, you can literally go down
and scrape your boot across the gravel and flip
a dozen manila clams. Wow. Yeah, we called them
Bremerton Browns because they were sewer. They
were growing on sewer. You know, they were eating
the stuff from the sewer outflow. That's the
crazy thing, right? Because these are filter
feeders. And often in these beaches that are
contaminated with raw sewage, they thrive. They
love it. But because they're filter feeders,
they take all these contaminants into their bodies.
Yeah. And because the area is closed to commercial
harvesting, it's like I say, it's just rich with
shellfish. And shellfish, I mean, in those kind
of areas, one person can dig 200 pounds of clams
in that tide. So what would be the incentive
for somebody to go do that? What's somebody going
to do with 200 pounds of clams that they dig?
Right. So the number of different ways they can
camouflage it as a legitimate, say they're a
rogue shellfish company. hundreds of very small
shellfish companies, you know, just people that
have one beach that, you know, get licensed and
all of that. And so one mechanism is to use your
shellfish tags because every big has to be tagged
with the date it was harvested and where it was
harvested and all of that. And so if you could
successfully get away with that night of poaching
and take the clams to your house or whatever
and then tag them and then take them to the market,
representing them as coming from a different
beach. There's also just simply the black market.
Throw your clams in your trunk of your car and
go shopping around at restaurants that want to
buy them or taverns. Then you have the whole
a tribal authority or tribal issues where if
you had a buddy that was a tribal member and
willing to take your clams, he'd go through and
sell them as though it was off of a tribal dig.
And so it's important to catch them in the act.
Not that we haven't done huge investigations
where we're able to put paper trails together
and all of that. But but ideally you catch them
in the act. And it's usually at night. They're
very crafty in how they get away with it. In
fact, I like to I like to I always like to call
the evolution of the of the clam poacher, the
dirty clam poacher. That's the other things we
call them dirty clams. Yeah, you know. Sorry,
go ahead. Oh, I was just going to say it was
it was. It was really incredible to watch over
the years because when I first came on, there
wasn't a lot of active enforcement in that. In
fact, I think mine and Duane McAveaney's positions
at the time were funded by Department of Health.
Not that our duties were solely sanitary shellfish
enforcement, but that Legislature appropriated
money for two officers to help with with that
issue out of deal after Department of Health
budget. Yeah, right. Yeah Yeah, and you know,
that's that's another example performance issue,
right? So you're a fully you commissioned fish
and wildlife officer But your primary duty is
to be focusing on these sanitary selfish issues,
right? Yeah. Well, yeah the way the way it works
usually is is you get approval for those positions
but But the. But everybody is supposed, you know,
yeah, everybody's designated for that. For that
work, everybody shares in it, right? Everybody
it's probably high priority for the department.
Everybody's going to work on it, right? So just
so people understand. So we're talking about
commercial. This is the danger here is commercialization
of these clients, which is so often the issue
in all. truly the bigger issue, wildlife conservation
or wildlife cases, it's really commercialization
that does damage one way or the other, either
populations or public health. What could happen
if these clams get into our food chain? They
get into restaurants up in Seattle or Tacoma.
They could have a number of different health
issues, paralytic shellfish poisoning, E. coli.
I'm trying to remember the... the name of the
algae that occurs. Anyway, a number of things.
You know, the virus that happens on sales, vacation
cruises. What is that, neurovirus or whatever?
Yeah, norovirus, right? Norovirus, there you
go. Yeah, just a number of things and they can
affect especially the elderly or people that
already have low immune system and it can hospitalize
people and it can cause death. Yeah, it can kill
people. And who'd have thought a fish and wildlife
officer is out there involved in kind of a pretty
critical public health issue, right? Yeah. Maybe
preventing death from people who eat contaminated
shellfish at restaurants in Seattle. And that
could be a tourist from Germany or me or you,
right? And so to me that is just one of the more
interesting things and especially since the officer
positions are funded by the washington department
of health because there's an opportunity here
i think at the federal level like there are wildlife
trafficking presents public health issues such
as the introduction of bird flu into the united
states there are lots of birds traffic around
the world all the time and a lot of traffic on
in the passenger compartments of long haul. commercial
airline flights. So somebody sitting next to
you for 17 hours that has live birds strapped
to their body came from the wild. Anyway, I think
there's room at the federal level for some of
these federal public health agencies to fund
some law enforcement work to try to prevent the
origin of zoonotic diseases that could kill us.
Right. Right. I think that's a very cool thing
that the department does. Yeah. You know, just
just so that just for accuracy. Those positions
initially were funded for that purpose. But I
don't think that the Department of Health actually
funds us each year. I think that those ended
up being into our budget. So we don't actively
dip into Department of Health funds for those
positions. Okay. Did it start that way though?
You know, I'm not really... sure if if the funds
were reduced from Department of Health funds
that you know during that biennium or or if it
was You know funds created by the or allotted
by the legislature for that purpose Yeah, maybe
it was just the Washington Department of Health
went to legislature and say hey, you know, we
need this That could be what happened. Yeah,
this is back in 1987. So yeah Remember the details.
It's a program that's been around a while. But
it's great because it illustrates how different
agencies can complement each other's missions,
right? Right. Yeah. OK, so we're coming to the
end of our time, Dan. But one of the things I
wanted to ask you about, I don't know the details
really. I'm sure you told me at one point years
ago. But there was a time earlier in your career,
I think you were a wildlife officer, where you
Somebody pretty seriously assaulted you on the
job. Do you recall the circumstances of that
or what happened? In fact, it was related to
sanitary shellfish enforcement. In the middle
of the night, we were staking out a boat ramp
in an area that's closed for commercial activity.
And what the heck? Came came in like really super
fast and skidded down the ramp and turned around
and went racing off and and And we went After
him, I think I was working with Steve DiMero
remember him. I do remember Steve. Yeah. Yeah
and Somehow or another they I don't think we
were able to catch up to them or whatever. But
then then we get a call from state patrol saying
that there was a car in a ditch, you know, a
few miles away from us. Obviously, those people
and and that they had walked to a small grocery
store nearby and they wanted somebody to contact
them, hold them for them, investigate them for
for that. vehicle accident. Right. So, so we
pull up and, and see, you know, see like, I know,
three or four guys standing in the parking lot
of this gas station. And as we pull up, one of
them bails. Highway. I, I just instinctually
just jump out and run after him. He, uh, he runs
across the driveway or the highway, hits a barbed
wire fence, flips right over it and takes off
running. Cause I thought I'd just catch him at
the fence, you know? Right. Yeah. But no, he
just flips right over that thing, takes off running.
So, so I crawl through the fence and take off
running after him out through this pasture. And
I'm saying, stop police, stop you're under arrest.
And he keeps putting his hands. towards his waistline.
Keep your hands where I can see him. Stop. Keep
your hands where I can see him. And at one point
he trips and falls, which allowed me to come
up and I just kind of, just as he's getting up,
I just slam into him with my full body weight
to, not that he was about twice my size, but.
Now, Dan, you and I are about the same height.
We're not the tallest guys in the in the crowd.
Yeah. Yeah. And and as I do that, I kind of roll
past him. And so as I'm getting up, he's on me,
yelling at me, screaming, and he tackles me.
I got this guy that's two hundred and seventy
pounds or whatever on him. Six foot something.
Now he's attacking me. And he's got me wrapped,
got my arms wrapped, um, and down on the ground.
And so, uh, I used to wrestle, you know, in junior
high and high school. And so I more just kind
of went into a wrestling mode to get onto my
stomach and then out from under him. And I get
on top of him with, with a hair hold and, uh,
hair holds, you know, they don't use, they don't
teach that anymore, but that's one of the greatest
way of controlling somebody. Yeah. Yeah, you
know, you grab a fistful of hair and squeeze
as hard as you can. Yeah. And so he's basically
I basically felt like I was on a on a a bull
riding a bull, you know, you know, and he's keeping
trying to put his hands, you know, I'm saying,
show me your hands, get your hands out. You know,
you're under arrest. Put your hands out. And
he starts yelling at me to kill him. Kill me.
Just kill me. Kill me. I wanted to kill me. And
I'm like, oh boy, this is the real fight for
life here. And anyway, so it goes on a little
bit. It's winter time. I have gloves on, right?
It was OK for the hair hold. So I get my pepper
spray out, and I could get it to go. So I've
got it right in front of his face, and my gloves
are restricting me from. pushing the top down,
but he sees, he finally recognizes that I'm trying
to spray him. And at that point he goes, don't
spray me, don't spray me, don't spray me. And
he puts his hands out and I was able to arrest
him. Well, he didn't have a weapon on him, but
he had a pocket full of meth. That's why he kept
trying to reach in it, cause he's trying to get
rid of it, you know. Get rid of his meth. Yeah.
Crazy cause reaching, you know, just reaching
for something that could be a weapon would be.
Oh yeah. there's a good chance that a police
officer could shoot you at that point. Right,
yeah. But yeah, so that was one of my biggest
altercations in my career. That went similar
before I was a fish cop, but anyway, yeah. And
he was so high on meth that he had like a heart
rate of like 185 or something, and so we took
him to the hospital. and stayed there with him,
you know, and it was hours before his heart rate
came down. And anyway, he's doing prison time.
So we charged him with assault and police officer.
Yeah, I think he did like five years or something.
Yeah. Remember, he got a pretty good sentence
for arresting you. Yeah. Yeah. Those are scary
situations that can unfold so quickly because
like you said, you see, you know, you see somebody
run if you're a proactive, aggressive officer,
you take off after them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And
then all of a sudden, pretty quickly you find
yourself alone in a field. I find myself, you
know, a couple hundred yards away. And of course,
Steve DiMero, he's got three people. He's trying
to deal with two and he's looking back. Exactly.
Man, I didn't know what to do. And, you know,
if you think about the situation, yes, Puget
Sound is highly populated, but there are areas
around the Sound, particularly in areas where,
you know, people are doing nefarious things at
night that are pretty remote. And you were likely,
it was, the backup for you was a ways away, probably.
Oh, yeah. Washington State Patrol would have
been the closest, they wouldn't have gotten there.
Nixon rolled in, he rolled in, just as I was
coming out of the field with him. Yeah. You said
Matt Nixon did? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's it's really
I remember that story telling me that you'd been
assaulted and you know, that's something that's
very important to pay attention to if you're
out there working alone is for sure. Because,
you know, not only could he be reaching for a
gun, but what people always have to remember
is whenever an officer gets involved in an altercation,
there's always a gun in the altercations and
it's your gun. It might be your gun, right? If
he gets ahold of your gun, that's trouble. Yeah,
game over. Game over. Yeah, exactly. People used
to comment like, you know, you're working with
a Pierce County sheriff's deputy or something
or having coffee with them or whatever. And,
you know, they're they're seeing bad shit every
day. Right. And and they would say, you guys
are crazy for doing what you do. I go, are you
crazy for doing what you do? He goes, yeah, but
I always have backup within 30 seconds or a minute.
That's exactly right. And we'll leave our listeners
on this note. If you look at the US Department
of Justice statistics, wildlife conservation
officers are statistically much more likely to
be assaulted in the field than any other law
enforcement officer. Yeah, so a game warden in
Washington state working Puget Sound is more
likely to be assaulted in the line of duty than
an LAPD officer working downtown Los Angeles.
So it's weird to think that, isn't it? But it
is. But it's sobering. Yeah, 90 % of the people
we we contact, you know, are just great people
having, you know, taken taken advantage of the
opportunity to harvest, you know, shellfish or
wildlife. So right. Right. And then adding on
top of that, when you're out there looking at
people who could be commercially poaching, right?
They got money involved. They gave money at stake.
I always say things that make people really dangerous
when they think you're going to take their liberty
away. So if they're about to be arrested, that
could be a dangerous person. If you're going
to go into their home, like on a search warrant,
that's a dangerous person because people protect
their homes. And then the other thing is, if
you're about to take their their money, their
living, or putting that at jeopardy. That's something
people will fight you for. Yep. And in our line
of work, everybody we contact has either a gun,
a knife, or both. Exactly right. That's exactly
right. Well, Dan, listen, I can't tell you how
much I've appreciated having this really interesting,
broad conversation with you. You're one of my
all -time favorite law enforcement persons. People
in general, I constantly, you know, while I was
on the job, I always asked myself, what would
Dan do? Just asking what Ed's mother would do
now. So yeah, it was another good thing. What
would mom think? Yeah, that's always a good rule
to follow. Anyway, Dan, I appreciate you coming
on the show. I hope to have you back sometime.
I'd love to be a regular. Yeah, I think you'd
be a great regular. But thank you so much. I
appreciate your time and we will see everybody
next time. All right, Ed. All right. Thank you.
Thanks for having me. You bet. Nature's Secret
Service is written and produced by me, Ed Newcomer,
and is co -produced by the DHTV team here at
California State University Dominguez Hills.
Follow us on social media and connect with us
online at naturessecretservice .com.