WEBVTT 00:00:00.140 --> 00:00:02.540 If you want to learn more about the topics of 00:00:02.540 --> 00:00:06.219 today's episode, visit the podcast website at 00:00:06.219 --> 00:00:09.339 naturessecretservice .com. Thanks for listening. 00:00:34.359 --> 00:00:37.340 Okay, people, listen up. Here we go. This is 00:00:37.340 --> 00:00:39.320 Nature's Secret Service, the podcast that puts 00:00:39.320 --> 00:00:41.399 you in the room with the men and women of wildlife 00:00:41.399 --> 00:00:43.960 law enforcement. I'm Ed Newcomer, your host. 00:00:44.380 --> 00:00:47.520 And today we have with us a guest, Captain Dan 00:00:47.520 --> 00:00:50.039 Brinson, retired wildlife officer from the state 00:00:50.039 --> 00:00:52.840 of Washington, formerly with the Washington Department 00:00:52.840 --> 00:00:55.350 of Fish and Wildlife Police. And he's appearing 00:00:55.350 --> 00:00:58.929 with us or from his home in Washington state. 00:00:59.329 --> 00:01:01.789 Dan, thanks for being on the podcast. I really 00:01:01.789 --> 00:01:04.469 appreciate it. Good to see you. Thank you for 00:01:04.469 --> 00:01:08.189 inviting me. Yeah. When I thought about doing 00:01:08.189 --> 00:01:11.349 this podcast years ago, I kind of put together 00:01:11.349 --> 00:01:14.450 in my head a list of people who I would want 00:01:14.450 --> 00:01:18.719 to have on. And you were on. the short list on 00:01:18.719 --> 00:01:23.120 the list. And I think listeners and watchers 00:01:23.120 --> 00:01:28.060 will understand why pretty quickly. Dan, I introduced 00:01:28.060 --> 00:01:30.459 you as a retired captain with the Washington 00:01:30.459 --> 00:01:32.879 Department of Fish and Wildlife, but you had 00:01:32.879 --> 00:01:35.719 a long career with the state of Washington as 00:01:35.719 --> 00:01:38.680 a conservation law enforcement officer. And during 00:01:38.680 --> 00:01:42.439 that time, state of Washington went through some 00:01:42.439 --> 00:01:45.239 changes in growth in terms of how they organized 00:01:45.239 --> 00:01:49.159 their conservation law enforcement. And I want 00:01:49.159 --> 00:01:50.659 you to kind of explain that to everybody. But 00:01:50.659 --> 00:01:54.000 first, I want to know, you and I have never really 00:01:54.000 --> 00:01:57.439 talked about this before. We met probably in 00:01:57.439 --> 00:02:01.780 the mid late 90s, somewhere between 95 and 97 00:02:01.780 --> 00:02:05.599 probably. But I have a recollection of how we 00:02:05.599 --> 00:02:07.760 met, but I'm not sure it's accurate. What's your 00:02:07.760 --> 00:02:10.879 recollection of how we met? I'm trying to remember. 00:02:11.629 --> 00:02:13.509 the first time we met. I don't know if you had 00:02:13.509 --> 00:02:17.009 just walked over from the AG's office where you 00:02:17.009 --> 00:02:21.689 were and came in and introduced yourself around. 00:02:21.870 --> 00:02:25.270 I must have happened to be there at the time. 00:02:25.530 --> 00:02:30.349 But I remember, what I remember is like, here's 00:02:30.349 --> 00:02:35.169 this attorney coming over wanting to be a game 00:02:35.169 --> 00:02:38.289 warden. You know, I thought it was cool. It's 00:02:38.289 --> 00:02:41.639 like, oh, great. You know, Finally, there'll 00:02:41.639 --> 00:02:44.560 be somebody else smarter than me here. No, just 00:02:44.560 --> 00:02:50.259 kidding. But yeah, no, we got along great. I 00:02:50.259 --> 00:02:54.819 think we did some ride -alongs, maybe on a boat 00:02:54.819 --> 00:02:59.199 even. I'm trying to remember. But you were fascinated 00:02:59.199 --> 00:03:04.259 by the idea of our work and you made a very good 00:03:04.259 --> 00:03:09.460 impression and we became fast friends. you even 00:03:09.460 --> 00:03:14.000 became a, I think you were in the process of 00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:17.319 being a reserve officer, but also you put in 00:03:17.319 --> 00:03:23.599 to be an actual paid officer and you were selected, 00:03:23.719 --> 00:03:26.280 you were ready to go to the academy and then 00:03:26.280 --> 00:03:30.599 life happens and you had some immediate family 00:03:30.599 --> 00:03:33.520 to take care of in Colorado and off you went. 00:03:34.340 --> 00:03:37.680 And then next thing I know, you're a special 00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:46.590 agent. Next thing you know, I'm Ed. Okay, that's 00:03:46.590 --> 00:03:48.629 good because that's pretty close to what I remember. 00:03:49.490 --> 00:03:52.310 You know, I think people who've listened to this 00:03:52.310 --> 00:03:54.729 podcast before kind of have gotten the gist or 00:03:54.729 --> 00:03:57.469 maybe I've said it before I became a special 00:03:57.469 --> 00:04:00.129 agent for US Fish and Wildlife. I was a practicing 00:04:00.129 --> 00:04:03.509 lawyer and when I lived in Washington state, 00:04:03.530 --> 00:04:05.490 I was an assistant attorney general for the state 00:04:05.490 --> 00:04:10.080 of Washington and But from the moment I graduated 00:04:10.080 --> 00:04:13.219 from law school, I wanted to become a conservation 00:04:13.219 --> 00:04:16.879 law enforcement officer. So at that time, right 00:04:16.879 --> 00:04:19.500 after I graduated, I looked at fisheries patrol 00:04:19.500 --> 00:04:21.879 officer. And I don't think I ended up applying 00:04:21.879 --> 00:04:25.199 for that job because I wanted to be more, I think, 00:04:25.420 --> 00:04:28.519 wildlife. And then I also started applying to 00:04:28.519 --> 00:04:30.639 be a US Fish and Wildlife Service Special Agent. 00:04:31.160 --> 00:04:33.720 But even with this, as you know, even getting 00:04:33.720 --> 00:04:36.899 in with the state is not easy. getting in with 00:04:36.899 --> 00:04:39.500 the feds is not easy either. And I never, I was 00:04:39.500 --> 00:04:42.620 kind of naive about that. So when I graduated 00:04:42.620 --> 00:04:45.259 from law school, I thought I'm a little cocky. 00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:48.480 I thought I have a law degree. I'll get in. And 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:53.079 I didn't, so I kept working as a lawyer as I 00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:55.000 was applying for these jobs. So I kind of always 00:04:55.000 --> 00:04:57.540 say I accidentally practiced law, but anyway, 00:04:57.699 --> 00:05:01.779 back to the point of how we met, um, My office 00:05:01.779 --> 00:05:03.839 at the Attorney General's office, the window 00:05:03.839 --> 00:05:06.360 of my office actually overlooked the courtyard 00:05:06.360 --> 00:05:09.100 between the Attorney General's building in Olympia 00:05:09.100 --> 00:05:11.639 and the Department of Natural Resources building. 00:05:12.399 --> 00:05:16.279 And in the main floor of the DNR building was 00:05:16.279 --> 00:05:18.019 the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife 00:05:18.019 --> 00:05:21.360 Law Enforcement office. And it's just so happened 00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:24.000 that in the DNR building was the cafeteria for 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:27.000 both buildings. Okay, there you go. And you like 00:05:27.000 --> 00:05:30.279 that food better? Well, we didn't have one in 00:05:30.279 --> 00:05:32.439 the AG's office. We didn't have our own cafeteria. 00:05:32.519 --> 00:05:34.579 So if we wanted to eat at the cafeteria, we had 00:05:34.579 --> 00:05:36.800 to walk over to the DNR building across the courtyard. 00:05:37.579 --> 00:05:40.319 So what I think I did, I used to kind of stalk 00:05:40.319 --> 00:05:43.399 you guys. I would look for the uniform. I would 00:05:43.399 --> 00:05:46.199 look for the uniformed officers eating lunch 00:05:46.199 --> 00:05:48.459 if they happen to be at the headquarters. And 00:05:48.459 --> 00:05:52.660 I think, I think I kind of like, and just walked 00:05:52.660 --> 00:05:55.240 up to you and like invited myself to join you 00:05:55.240 --> 00:05:58.920 for lunch, I think. Yeah, you know, that does 00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:01.779 ring a bell. I can, yeah. I think you're back 00:06:01.779 --> 00:06:03.920 to me now. Yeah. I think you were with another 00:06:03.920 --> 00:06:05.839 officer, might've been Greg Hall. I'm not sure, 00:06:05.879 --> 00:06:08.660 but yeah, I think I just kind of invited myself. 00:06:08.759 --> 00:06:10.759 Here I was, you know, I wore a suit and tie every 00:06:10.759 --> 00:06:13.660 day and I was so nervous. You guys were going 00:06:13.660 --> 00:06:17.060 to think, I knew you'd be polite to me, but I 00:06:17.060 --> 00:06:19.459 thought you'd probably giggle about me after 00:06:19.459 --> 00:06:22.860 I left. Say, you know, who's this idiot wants 00:06:22.860 --> 00:06:27.879 to be a game warden, you know, but I had stalked 00:06:27.879 --> 00:06:30.319 you and you, you were very, very kind to me. 00:06:30.360 --> 00:06:32.819 And there are two people in my career, Dan, that 00:06:32.819 --> 00:06:37.360 I credit with getting me into wildlife law enforcement. 00:06:38.060 --> 00:06:39.579 And you're one of them. And you're the first 00:06:39.579 --> 00:06:41.839 one really, because you're the first one that 00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:45.579 really took an interest in my interest. And, 00:06:45.699 --> 00:06:49.029 uh, you know, made it feel like it was something 00:06:49.029 --> 00:06:51.569 I could do, and it wasn't stupid. You know, when 00:06:51.569 --> 00:06:54.509 you're, here I was, most people go from law enforcement 00:06:54.509 --> 00:06:56.509 to practicing law, and here I was trying to do 00:06:56.509 --> 00:07:00.410 the opposite. And, you know, I was self -conscious 00:07:00.410 --> 00:07:02.209 about it, because my feeling was most people 00:07:02.209 --> 00:07:03.850 would look at me and be like, you're an idiot, 00:07:03.889 --> 00:07:07.310 what are you doing? Why are you doing this? And 00:07:07.310 --> 00:07:10.329 you didn't, you kind of instantly understood 00:07:10.329 --> 00:07:13.529 why I wanted to be in that role. And yeah, the 00:07:13.529 --> 00:07:15.290 first thing you did was you invited me to go 00:07:15.290 --> 00:07:18.339 out with you on I think it was the opening day 00:07:18.339 --> 00:07:22.560 of the shrimp season. Okay. Yeah. So that was 00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:25.160 a really awesome introduction. I don't know if 00:07:25.160 --> 00:07:27.199 you planned it that way because maybe, you know, 00:07:27.279 --> 00:07:29.860 being on a boat all day and pulling shrimp pots 00:07:29.860 --> 00:07:31.759 was something you were like, well, let's test 00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:33.839 this dude and see if he's really interested. 00:07:34.180 --> 00:07:37.360 I don't know. Did I force you to eat a raw shrimp 00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:42.819 that day? Yeah, of course you did. That was part 00:07:42.819 --> 00:07:44.740 of the tradition, right? That's right. Yeah. 00:07:45.420 --> 00:07:47.639 Yeah, but then we did, you know, you invited 00:07:47.639 --> 00:07:49.759 me to go on a number of ride alongs, which was 00:07:49.759 --> 00:07:51.699 really eye opening for me. I got to ride with 00:07:51.699 --> 00:07:53.540 you and other officers and see what the work 00:07:53.540 --> 00:07:56.720 was like. Um, we went on multiple boat patrols, 00:07:56.720 --> 00:07:59.879 I think. And then, uh, yeah, you, I think here 00:07:59.879 --> 00:08:01.860 at the time you were a sergeant and you were 00:08:01.860 --> 00:08:07.579 in charge of the, uh, reserve. Right. Yeah. Right. 00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:09.420 Yeah. You were the sergeant for the Marine detachment 00:08:09.420 --> 00:08:13.810 there in Olympia. And, uh, Yeah, I started the 00:08:13.810 --> 00:08:15.870 process to get signed up as a river reservist, 00:08:15.870 --> 00:08:18.350 but there was something weird going on with the 00:08:18.350 --> 00:08:21.089 department's program It wasn't it had it had 00:08:21.089 --> 00:08:23.689 lapsed and then it came back So it right it never 00:08:23.689 --> 00:08:25.930 I think I was on paper, but I never went through 00:08:25.930 --> 00:08:28.230 the training or anything, right? Yeah. Yeah, 00:08:28.269 --> 00:08:30.689 and then actually yeah you helped me get hired 00:08:30.689 --> 00:08:33.730 as a wildlife officer for the Washington Department 00:08:33.730 --> 00:08:35.909 of Fish and Wildlife and I was all set to do 00:08:35.909 --> 00:08:39.320 that and then as you say life happens and I ended 00:08:39.320 --> 00:08:41.259 up going to colorado for a few years before i 00:08:41.259 --> 00:08:45.940 became an agent anyway long story in my view 00:08:45.940 --> 00:08:50.299 i i owe my career in great part to dan brinson 00:08:50.299 --> 00:08:54.259 and your. The things you taught me i mean honestly. 00:08:55.179 --> 00:08:57.179 Throughout my career there were lessons that 00:08:57.179 --> 00:08:59.320 i learned from just doing ride along with you 00:08:59.320 --> 00:09:01.159 are being on boat patrols are just shooting the 00:09:01.159 --> 00:09:04.840 shit with you right there lessons i learned that 00:09:04.840 --> 00:09:07.399 i carried with me my whole career that that i. 00:09:07.480 --> 00:09:11.279 utilized in doing my work. Well, thank you for 00:09:11.279 --> 00:09:16.220 saying that. I'm honored to be that guy. If I 00:09:16.220 --> 00:09:18.799 really was that guy, I'm honored to be him. I'll 00:09:18.799 --> 00:09:21.539 wear that badge with pride. You definitely were. 00:09:21.759 --> 00:09:23.559 And you know, everybody in their life needs a 00:09:23.559 --> 00:09:26.679 guy like that, right? Or a gal. You need somebody 00:09:26.679 --> 00:09:29.700 that kind of helps guide you on how do you do 00:09:29.700 --> 00:09:31.600 this? Where do you go? What do you do next, right? 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:37.570 Yep. Yep. So let's get to this We've had guests 00:09:37.570 --> 00:09:40.169 on who have been with Washington Department of 00:09:40.169 --> 00:09:42.389 Fish and Wildlife. So we had Todd Vandivert on 00:09:42.389 --> 00:09:44.889 early in this season. Just the other day, I was 00:09:44.889 --> 00:09:47.570 trying to catch up on all your episodes. Cool. 00:09:47.990 --> 00:09:51.210 Yeah, I had never met Todd before. He came on 00:09:51.210 --> 00:09:54.429 the show, but very interesting work that he did. 00:09:55.149 --> 00:09:57.570 And then a number of agents who I knew at Fish 00:09:57.570 --> 00:10:00.669 and Wildlife Service, US Fish and Wildlife, who 00:10:00.669 --> 00:10:02.730 were friends of mine and I worked with, had been 00:10:02.730 --> 00:10:04.870 former Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife. 00:10:05.340 --> 00:10:09.519 Officers Steve Furr and Corky Roberts were both 00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:14.039 former. So can you explain really? So you mentioned 00:10:14.039 --> 00:10:17.120 you started as a fisheries patrol officer. That's 00:10:17.120 --> 00:10:22.220 correct. Yeah, so. So prior to the merger of 00:10:22.220 --> 00:10:29.399 94, her I think was around our merger. The the 00:10:29.399 --> 00:10:32.320 state of Washington had two different agencies. 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:36.399 for conservation law enforcement had the Washington 00:10:36.399 --> 00:10:38.879 Department of Fisheries and then the Washington 00:10:38.879 --> 00:10:42.519 Department of Game. The Department of Game was, 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:46.039 you know, had had the Fish and Wildlife or the 00:10:46.039 --> 00:10:48.340 Game Commission at the time. And, you know, that's 00:10:48.340 --> 00:10:50.940 they were their policy was directed by the commission 00:10:50.940 --> 00:10:55.220 like like we are now again. The Department of 00:10:55.220 --> 00:10:57.919 Fisheries was different in the way that we work 00:10:57.919 --> 00:11:00.580 directly, you know, as any agency would through 00:11:00.580 --> 00:11:06.899 the governor's office and Uh, we had maybe 50 00:11:06.899 --> 00:11:11.139 at the most, uh, commission personnel. Uh, the 00:11:11.139 --> 00:11:13.159 department of game was much larger because they 00:11:13.159 --> 00:11:15.919 covered every nook and cranny of the state. And 00:11:15.919 --> 00:11:20.740 as fisheries patrol, we were primarily saltwater, 00:11:20.740 --> 00:11:26.860 uh, in the commercial. Well, our authority was 00:11:26.860 --> 00:11:34.009 over salmon and, uh, food fish and. uh in shellfish 00:11:34.009 --> 00:11:40.629 of course okay yeah so so we worked uh together 00:11:40.629 --> 00:11:44.149 quite a bit um in fact uh Todd Vandivert and 00:11:44.149 --> 00:11:46.850 I were we worked together practically as partners 00:11:46.850 --> 00:11:51.710 for well my first seven or eight years of my 00:11:51.710 --> 00:11:54.590 career so I learned a lot from Todd I mean he's 00:11:54.590 --> 00:11:59.230 brilliant um but yeah so then then the department 00:11:59.230 --> 00:12:03.539 merged and that was Well, that was a time of 00:12:03.539 --> 00:12:07.600 some some real turmoil because being such similar 00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:10.080 agencies, there was kind of a sibling rivalry 00:12:10.080 --> 00:12:14.500 between the two, you know. Right. And of course, 00:12:14.580 --> 00:12:17.080 once we merged in, all the fish cops had to teach, 00:12:17.080 --> 00:12:20.460 you know, teach the game wardens, you know what? 00:12:21.029 --> 00:12:23.610 What a you know what an oyster looks like and 00:12:23.610 --> 00:12:25.049 of course they just look at and go that's just 00:12:25.049 --> 00:12:32.009 a small get pile, you know Then a bunch of them 00:12:32.009 --> 00:12:33.929 fled to the eastern Washington where they didn't 00:12:33.929 --> 00:12:41.429 have to do that kind of work Prior to 94 like 00:12:41.429 --> 00:12:46.250 let's say during a busy season So back when there 00:12:46.250 --> 00:12:49.960 were two agencies fishery during a busy season 00:12:49.960 --> 00:12:53.600 of say salmon with the game officers ever help 00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:56.139 you or was it truly said no no they did yeah 00:12:56.139 --> 00:13:02.820 no they they did they did um not uh the the timing 00:13:02.820 --> 00:13:07.100 was kind of wrong for that was the peak salmon 00:13:07.100 --> 00:13:10.259 season is also all the hunting seasons so but 00:13:10.259 --> 00:13:12.690 when they could sure yeah Yep, they did. We worked 00:13:12.690 --> 00:13:14.990 together. Like I say, there was the rivalries 00:13:14.990 --> 00:13:16.730 and some places it was really hot and they wouldn't 00:13:16.730 --> 00:13:19.309 talk to each other. Other places like here, you 00:13:19.309 --> 00:13:23.950 know, we got along great and, you know, Todd 00:13:23.950 --> 00:13:28.090 could work fishery stuff as long as the sergeant 00:13:28.090 --> 00:13:29.990 didn't find out about it, you know, that kind 00:13:29.990 --> 00:13:33.190 of thing. Got it, got it, got it. Sonical, let 00:13:33.190 --> 00:13:37.529 me think back about it. Yeah, and it was, I'm 00:13:37.529 --> 00:13:39.830 sure it was mostly friendly, you know. Oh yeah, 00:13:39.870 --> 00:13:42.200 yeah. Yeah, friendly banter for sure. And then 00:13:42.200 --> 00:13:45.500 sometimes people took it too far. So in 94, the 00:13:45.500 --> 00:13:48.059 two agencies merged and they become the Washington 00:13:48.059 --> 00:13:51.620 Department of Fish and Wildlife. And I assume 00:13:51.620 --> 00:13:53.700 you had two chains of command that had to be 00:13:53.700 --> 00:13:56.120 mixed, right? Yeah. Yeah. And that was luckily 00:13:56.120 --> 00:14:00.740 I was, I was still an officer at the time. So 00:14:00.740 --> 00:14:06.799 I wasn't in all that turmoil of, you know, One 00:14:06.799 --> 00:14:10.700 chief trying to surpass the other chief and et 00:14:10.700 --> 00:14:14.840 cetera, et cetera. But it came together with 00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:19.200 a mixture of both in our administration. And 00:14:19.200 --> 00:14:21.480 then basically what that meant was you had wildlife 00:14:21.480 --> 00:14:23.419 officers who were responsible for everything, 00:14:23.539 --> 00:14:25.799 whether it was commercial fishing, recreational 00:14:25.799 --> 00:14:28.620 fishing, salmon fishing, trout fishing, game 00:14:28.620 --> 00:14:32.549 hunting, all of it, right? Correct, yes. And 00:14:32.549 --> 00:14:35.389 you know just for listeners are people who are 00:14:35.389 --> 00:14:37.730 watching on youtube you know just picture the 00:14:37.730 --> 00:14:40.169 state of washington the entire west side of courses 00:14:40.169 --> 00:14:44.409 is the pacific ocean on the coast and which can't 00:14:44.409 --> 00:14:48.710 forget ever is that. There's a huge you know 00:14:48.710 --> 00:14:52.929 you just sound is huge and all the major cities 00:14:52.929 --> 00:14:56.750 seattle to coma olympia are on the sound so you 00:14:56.750 --> 00:15:01.029 have a huge recreational fishery their recreational. 00:15:03.159 --> 00:15:06.399 uh shellfish uh habits practice you have native 00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:10.139 american issues from the bolt decision and then 00:15:10.139 --> 00:15:12.759 off the coast there you have commercial fishing 00:15:12.759 --> 00:15:15.740 which also involves salmon and other fish that 00:15:15.740 --> 00:15:17.899 yeah and there's commercial fishing you know 00:15:17.899 --> 00:15:21.519 in the sound as well too so yeah right right 00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:23.440 and then there's other conservation issues too 00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:26.500 such as you know whales uh and seals and sea 00:15:26.500 --> 00:15:28.720 lions make their way into Puget Sound even killer 00:15:28.720 --> 00:15:34.279 whales are in there occasionally So. For me what 00:15:34.279 --> 00:15:36.179 the things that i was struck me that was tough 00:15:36.179 --> 00:15:39.799 about washington working in washington was like. 00:15:40.500 --> 00:15:42.580 You know obviously salmon they move from salt 00:15:42.580 --> 00:15:44.860 water to freshwater right so you end up having 00:15:44.860 --> 00:15:47.500 you end up having these two issues where you 00:15:47.500 --> 00:15:50.039 got a commercial fishery for salmon then they 00:15:50.039 --> 00:15:52.980 got a recreational fishery and then they move 00:15:52.980 --> 00:15:55.919 into the rivers and you have a totally different 00:15:55.919 --> 00:15:58.600 group of people that are targeting them for whatever 00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:02.080 right yeah. And then boy, I don't even have it 00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:04.200 on my list to talk about Native American issues. 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:09.080 As you know, so complex to be a fish and wildlife 00:16:09.080 --> 00:16:13.220 officer in Washington. I mean, your head just 00:16:13.220 --> 00:16:15.340 spins all the time when you get a call and it's 00:16:15.340 --> 00:16:17.480 like, okay, it could, you know, what if it's 00:16:17.480 --> 00:16:20.960 a tribal person and as usual in a custom area, 00:16:21.279 --> 00:16:25.899 you know, just throwing the net in a river. So 00:16:25.899 --> 00:16:29.279 is that, you know, do they have the season open? 00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:33.340 I got to call the tribal police now and find 00:16:33.340 --> 00:16:39.779 out. Yeah, it's very complex, very complex. Yeah, 00:16:39.799 --> 00:16:42.279 I would say working in Washington is probably 00:16:42.279 --> 00:16:44.559 right up there with working in Alaska, where 00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:48.360 there's really complicated native rights. Yeah, 00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:50.399 you always have to keep in the back of your mind. 00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:53.179 It's like having a totally different rule book. 00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:58.440 Right. Right. And every tribe is an individual 00:16:58.440 --> 00:17:02.759 government. So it's not so when, you know, well, 00:17:02.820 --> 00:17:06.579 we're getting way off beat, but but you you know, 00:17:06.579 --> 00:17:10.400 you you sit down with the with a tribe and maybe 00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:13.700 like as a captain to try to work out some issue. 00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:16.359 And the very first thing that happens is, you 00:17:16.359 --> 00:17:20.240 know, they're they're chairman of the of the 00:17:20.240 --> 00:17:24.000 tribe, basically the president of their of their 00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:26.680 nation. Right. comes in and wants to know, you 00:17:26.680 --> 00:17:29.740 know, where's your director? I want to talk to 00:17:29.740 --> 00:17:34.059 you. Why am I here at my level talking to somebody 00:17:34.059 --> 00:17:38.420 that's like four levels equivalent below? Yeah, 00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:41.680 exactly. So you're not only do you have an enforcement 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:44.240 role there when you're dealing with Native Americans 00:17:44.240 --> 00:17:46.119 that you have to sort out that's different than 00:17:46.119 --> 00:17:48.500 when you're dealing with non -Natives, but you 00:17:48.500 --> 00:17:51.799 almost have a geopolitical issue you have to 00:17:51.799 --> 00:17:56.619 deal with. Government relationships, right? Yeah, 00:17:56.619 --> 00:17:59.220 and it could be a big deal if an officer screws 00:17:59.220 --> 00:18:01.099 up the relationship with a tribe. That could 00:18:01.099 --> 00:18:03.000 really cause problems for the department. Oh, 00:18:03.059 --> 00:18:06.220 yes. Oh, yes. Very much so. And that's where 00:18:06.220 --> 00:18:08.700 good relationships with the tribal police are, 00:18:08.700 --> 00:18:11.579 you know, critical. So important. And, you know, 00:18:11.579 --> 00:18:16.500 I'll have to say that in the field, tribal officers 00:18:16.500 --> 00:18:20.200 and our officers, there is great. Where it gets 00:18:20.200 --> 00:18:21.960 more complicated, it's the more up the chain 00:18:21.960 --> 00:18:25.769 you get with you know, policy and procedure and 00:18:25.769 --> 00:18:29.089 legal issues and all that. Yeah, you know, that 00:18:29.089 --> 00:18:31.529 is so true across law enforcement, just as one 00:18:31.529 --> 00:18:34.549 other side, you know, while I was an agent, I 00:18:34.549 --> 00:18:36.849 obviously it's federal agents, we work with other 00:18:36.849 --> 00:18:40.289 federal agencies. And while I was overseas, I 00:18:40.289 --> 00:18:43.630 worked with foreign agencies and I had the same 00:18:43.630 --> 00:18:47.089 experience, you know, the relationship with the 00:18:47.089 --> 00:18:50.259 field people was always great like you know a 00:18:50.259 --> 00:18:52.839 field agent with homeland security or fbi great 00:18:52.839 --> 00:18:57.400 right um an officer with the zimbabwean forestry 00:18:57.400 --> 00:19:00.539 department great but further up the chain command 00:19:00.539 --> 00:19:03.440 you go there might start to be issues that that 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:07.670 uh where there's conflict you know for sure In 00:19:07.670 --> 00:19:09.609 fact, you know, one time, uh, speaking to tribal 00:19:09.609 --> 00:19:12.410 police, there's always been a very close relationship 00:19:12.410 --> 00:19:14.789 between tribal police agencies and the U S fish 00:19:14.789 --> 00:19:17.430 and wildlife service. Cause of course, yes. Department 00:19:17.430 --> 00:19:19.410 of Indian affairs is under department of interior, 00:19:19.569 --> 00:19:23.369 just like fish and wildlife. But, um, I, one 00:19:23.369 --> 00:19:25.509 time I was doing a ride along back when I was 00:19:25.509 --> 00:19:27.609 a lawyer before I was an agent and I was with, 00:19:27.609 --> 00:19:31.089 uh, Matt Nixon and we were, we were making a 00:19:31.089 --> 00:19:34.529 traffic stop and it was a carload of people. 00:19:34.589 --> 00:19:36.589 I don't know what they had been poaching, some 00:19:36.589 --> 00:19:39.009 type of shellfish. Matt was looking for backup 00:19:39.009 --> 00:19:42.369 over the radio. And the very first and only officers 00:19:42.369 --> 00:19:45.269 that showed up were tribal police officers. So 00:19:45.269 --> 00:19:49.750 testament to the relationship there. Hey, one 00:19:49.750 --> 00:19:51.529 more thing I was going to ask you about the structure. 00:19:51.809 --> 00:19:53.650 Eventually, Washington Department of Fish and 00:19:53.650 --> 00:19:55.950 Wildlife added police to the end of their title. 00:19:56.730 --> 00:20:00.509 Yes. When did that happen? Well, that would have 00:20:00.509 --> 00:20:05.309 come about kind of well. I'll make a long story 00:20:05.309 --> 00:20:10.470 short, but I'm trying to remember the year that 00:20:10.470 --> 00:20:16.869 we had a bill passed that gave us general authority, 00:20:17.289 --> 00:20:19.750 made us general authority police officers. So 00:20:19.750 --> 00:20:24.970 the philosophy behind going from enforcement 00:20:24.970 --> 00:20:32.259 program on our patch to police was, well, partly 00:20:32.259 --> 00:20:40.160 to represent that change in being fully general 00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:44.640 authority police officers. And then partly also, 00:20:46.380 --> 00:20:49.680 Bruce Bjork was chief that's come from the state 00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:55.099 patrol. And his thought behind it was that because 00:20:55.099 --> 00:20:59.720 we work with so many different nationalities 00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:04.380 that are here, Some don't speak English, but 00:21:04.380 --> 00:21:11.640 the police is very recognizable no matter where 00:21:11.640 --> 00:21:14.220 you come from. If you see something that says 00:21:14.220 --> 00:21:19.480 police on it, you're dealing with the law, with 00:21:19.480 --> 00:21:22.700 the police officer. And so that was the theory 00:21:22.700 --> 00:21:26.799 behind that, to put the police on that, representing 00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:31.440 what we really are and making it more easy. for 00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:34.640 people to understand that. That makes total sense. 00:21:35.119 --> 00:21:37.799 I hadn't thought of that. I figured it had something 00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:40.819 to do with authorities and jurisdiction issues, 00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:43.940 but that's actually very kind of insightful, 00:21:44.059 --> 00:21:52.559 actually. Yeah, yeah. It was taken by some to 00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:57.400 be stepping away from our... responsibility as 00:21:57.400 --> 00:22:00.660 conservation law enforcement officers. You know, 00:22:00.680 --> 00:22:02.880 a lot of people had different opinions. When 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:06.059 I say a lot of people, I mean, inside, inside 00:22:06.059 --> 00:22:09.980 our program, different opinions about it. So 00:22:09.980 --> 00:22:13.380 you've probably heard, you know, people making 00:22:13.380 --> 00:22:17.599 fun of, of us thinking that we had to add police 00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:20.119 to our badge or whatever. But, but that was the 00:22:20.119 --> 00:22:23.759 reason. Yeah, that's it. I never heard anybody 00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:28.500 mock it. And this leads into an excellent discussion 00:22:28.500 --> 00:22:30.480 I want to have with you about law enforcement 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:34.240 authorities. But before we do that, I did want 00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:36.460 to have you explain, every state's organized 00:22:36.460 --> 00:22:40.140 a little differently. So you were an officer, 00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:43.400 and then you became a sergeant. What does a sergeant 00:22:43.400 --> 00:22:45.299 do in the Washington Department of Fish and Life? 00:22:46.640 --> 00:22:49.220 Who do they supervise, and what areas do they? 00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:53.279 Right, yeah. So a sergeant, the sergeant position 00:22:53.279 --> 00:22:57.240 is the best position that you could get. I'm 00:22:57.240 --> 00:22:59.980 sorry I never went further than that. You know, 00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:02.579 in hindsight, I was having so much fun as a sergeant. 00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:07.079 A sergeant has the supervision over the detachment, 00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:09.980 like a, you know, a couple of counties, maybe. 00:23:10.420 --> 00:23:14.160 So the way we're organized is we have six regions, 00:23:14.680 --> 00:23:17.240 and then within each of those regions, there's 00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:19.839 a number of detachments. Each detachment has 00:23:20.410 --> 00:23:23.849 Oh, maybe as low as three officers as much as 00:23:23.849 --> 00:23:28.109 seven or eight. And the sergeant is in charge 00:23:28.109 --> 00:23:31.170 of those and in charge of the field issues for 00:23:31.170 --> 00:23:35.230 that geographic area. Got it. Okay. And then 00:23:35.230 --> 00:23:38.230 you became a captain. So what is the captain's 00:23:38.230 --> 00:23:39.890 responsibility? The captain then is responsible 00:23:39.890 --> 00:23:44.670 for that entire region. So there's six captains, 00:23:45.349 --> 00:23:48.930 one for each region. And I was the captain in 00:23:48.940 --> 00:23:53.380 in region six, stationed out of Montesano for, 00:23:53.740 --> 00:23:58.500 gosh, well, I was captain for 13 years and 10 00:23:58.500 --> 00:24:03.400 of those were as a regional captain. And then 00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:10.460 I moved to headquarters and, well, long story 00:24:10.460 --> 00:24:14.980 short, I retired my commission at 30 years because 00:24:14.980 --> 00:24:18.119 I got in a horrible car accident off duty. Right. 00:24:18.809 --> 00:24:22.349 crush my spinal cord, have some, you know, have 00:24:22.349 --> 00:24:25.089 a limp now and this and that. But long story, 00:24:25.329 --> 00:24:28.910 I'm glad to still be here. We're all glad you're 00:24:28.910 --> 00:24:31.289 here, Dan. I wasn't able to continue on in the 00:24:31.289 --> 00:24:34.569 law enforcement role because of the physical 00:24:34.569 --> 00:24:39.089 requirements. So I did land a manager's position 00:24:39.089 --> 00:24:42.990 in the wildlife program and spent the next four 00:24:42.990 --> 00:24:48.319 years there until I retired. Right, right. Yeah, 00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:50.839 no, we were I wasn't gonna bring up your accident, 00:24:50.920 --> 00:24:56.519 but we're all definitely After captain though 00:24:56.519 --> 00:25:00.539 in the department it goes what deputy chief Yeah, 00:25:00.660 --> 00:25:04.299 yeah goes deputy chief and then And then chief 00:25:04.299 --> 00:25:06.880 and then chief. Yeah, and now they've restructured 00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:11.519 since I retired and I think they've Well, we 00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:14.680 had lieutenants That's true. So before I retired, 00:25:14.839 --> 00:25:17.700 yeah, you'd be a lieutenant. So yeah, you could 00:25:17.700 --> 00:25:22.420 go sergeant, uh, detective or then lieutenant 00:25:22.420 --> 00:25:26.779 and then captain and deputy chief. Got it. Okay. 00:25:26.900 --> 00:25:29.059 And I could be wrong now. I mean, they've changed 00:25:29.059 --> 00:25:33.079 the, you know, when, when the chief bear came 00:25:33.079 --> 00:25:36.519 in, um, and Paul Golden, I don't know, do you 00:25:36.519 --> 00:25:39.859 know Paul Golden is, is the deputy chief? No, 00:25:40.180 --> 00:25:42.579 I don't. Okay. All right. Good. Great guy. But, 00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:44.799 um, but yeah, so they did some restructuring 00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:47.460 and I think now they might have corporals or 00:25:47.460 --> 00:25:51.519 something. Oh, okay. Yeah. Interesting. It, you 00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:54.519 know, the, uh, back to now to the adding police 00:25:54.519 --> 00:25:57.759 to the moniker and authorities, um, you mentioned 00:25:57.759 --> 00:26:00.759 one of the reasons was to give wildlife officers 00:26:00.759 --> 00:26:02.960 in Washington general law enforcement authority. 00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:05.339 And this issue has always been interesting to 00:26:05.339 --> 00:26:09.200 me because You know in the prior to that it was 00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:14.420 if you were enforcing the basically acting as 00:26:14.420 --> 00:26:16.220 a state wildlife officer then you can enforce 00:26:16.220 --> 00:26:19.400 any other law. Right and i remember there was 00:26:19.400 --> 00:26:22.700 always a conflict like inevitably there was some 00:26:22.700 --> 00:26:26.640 wildlife officer this is before you guys change 00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:28.680 to general authority back in the nineties when 00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:31.710 i was around. They were some officer who would 00:26:31.710 --> 00:26:34.529 see somebody driving recklessly or you know do 00:26:34.529 --> 00:26:37.450 something really grossly illegal traffic offense 00:26:37.450 --> 00:26:39.630 in front of them and they pull them over. Right 00:26:39.630 --> 00:26:42.329 and some supervisors at department of fish and 00:26:42.329 --> 00:26:44.109 wildlife in washington really great good for 00:26:44.109 --> 00:26:46.630 you. Others were like what the hell are you doing 00:26:46.630 --> 00:26:51.549 that's not right. And i think it always kind 00:26:51.549 --> 00:26:54.170 of shocked my conscience because the same exact 00:26:54.170 --> 00:26:56.049 thing happened in the u .s. fish and wildlife 00:26:56.049 --> 00:26:58.930 service when i got hired. Our law enforcement 00:26:58.930 --> 00:27:00.650 authority in the US Fish and Wildlife Service 00:27:00.650 --> 00:27:03.230 comes from the Lacey Act. And the way the Lacey 00:27:03.230 --> 00:27:08.029 Act is written, it says officers of the US Fish 00:27:08.029 --> 00:27:10.309 and Wildlife Service have authority to enforce 00:27:10.309 --> 00:27:13.549 all laws of the United States while enforcing 00:27:13.549 --> 00:27:17.450 this act. Right, yeah. It's like, oh boy, right? 00:27:18.509 --> 00:27:21.910 And some supervisors in the US Fish and Wildlife 00:27:21.910 --> 00:27:25.650 Service viewed that as you couldn't enforce any 00:27:25.710 --> 00:27:28.049 Aspect of title eighteen which is the general 00:27:28.049 --> 00:27:31.569 criminal code unless you were actively in the 00:27:31.569 --> 00:27:33.970 process of in that moment enforcing the lacy 00:27:33.970 --> 00:27:37.950 apple. I thought that was crazy and other other 00:27:37.950 --> 00:27:40.609 supervisor if you did as well we're always enforcing 00:27:40.609 --> 00:27:43.769 the lacy act everywhere we go you're always looking 00:27:43.769 --> 00:27:48.589 for a solution right. So it creates confusion 00:27:48.589 --> 00:27:51.430 most importantly among supervisors which i think 00:27:51.430 --> 00:27:55.309 is very dangerous because it doesn't give. field 00:27:55.309 --> 00:27:58.170 personnel, a clear understanding of what they 00:27:58.170 --> 00:28:01.029 are supposed to do, what they can do, right? 00:28:01.329 --> 00:28:05.329 And my view on this, I want to see what your 00:28:05.329 --> 00:28:10.230 view is. As a civilian, I always took my mom 00:28:10.230 --> 00:28:13.049 as the example. What would my mom think, right? 00:28:14.349 --> 00:28:16.869 And yeah, she does not law enforcement. She sees 00:28:16.869 --> 00:28:19.049 a marked vehicle, like a Washington Department 00:28:19.049 --> 00:28:22.190 of Fish and Wildlife marked game warden vehicle. 00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:25.420 There's a uniform person in it carrying a gun 00:28:25.420 --> 00:28:30.500 with a silver badge on their chest and some egregious 00:28:30.500 --> 00:28:32.960 reckless driving event happens in front of them 00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:35.640 and they don't do anything right. My mom would 00:28:35.640 --> 00:28:38.220 view that as dereliction of duty she would expect 00:28:38.220 --> 00:28:41.160 a law enforcement officer to enforce the law. 00:28:42.380 --> 00:28:46.619 Or if you take it to its extreme. If you had 00:28:46.619 --> 00:28:49.119 a supervisor that didn't understand the Lord 00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:51.869 wasn't. willing to creatively like interpret 00:28:51.869 --> 00:28:55.609 it in a way that furthers public safety. You 00:28:55.609 --> 00:28:57.890 can imagine a scenario where there is a U .S. 00:28:57.950 --> 00:29:00.150 Fish and Wildlife Service agent out in public, 00:29:01.269 --> 00:29:03.130 armed, plain clothes, or there's a Washington 00:29:03.130 --> 00:29:05.309 Department of Fish and Wildlife officer out in 00:29:05.309 --> 00:29:09.450 public and views a violent crime or a more serious 00:29:09.450 --> 00:29:12.309 crime and hesitates by asking themselves, do 00:29:12.309 --> 00:29:15.509 I have authority to intervene here? Right. And 00:29:15.509 --> 00:29:18.650 that's a bad situation, right? Sure. Yeah. The 00:29:18.650 --> 00:29:20.970 general authority clears that all up. Clears 00:29:20.970 --> 00:29:24.710 it up. I've got an example. So prior to that, 00:29:24.710 --> 00:29:27.670 uh, I think, I think I was working with Greg 00:29:27.670 --> 00:29:32.750 Ha and, and we were patrolling, you know, the 00:29:32.750 --> 00:29:36.650 shellfish beaches come along on the highway, 00:29:37.170 --> 00:29:39.509 come along. And here's this car parked off to 00:29:39.509 --> 00:29:43.529 the side with this obviously inebriated man, 00:29:43.529 --> 00:29:47.289 um, leaning up against the car, taking a leak, 00:29:47.289 --> 00:29:55.109 you know, And so I drive by, I go to the next 00:29:55.109 --> 00:29:57.549 driveway and pull in and sit and wait for him 00:29:57.549 --> 00:30:00.390 to get back in his car and pull him over his 00:30:00.390 --> 00:30:07.690 DUI. He goes to court and the sharp lawyer, he 00:30:07.690 --> 00:30:17.779 convinced the judge that it wasn't during doing 00:30:17.779 --> 00:30:20.920 my duty because I stopped doing my shellfish 00:30:20.920 --> 00:30:23.660 patrol and pulled into that driveway and waited. 00:30:23.880 --> 00:30:26.099 And so therefore I was no longer being a fish 00:30:26.099 --> 00:30:33.500 cop. Right. And so my stop was illegal. And did 00:30:33.500 --> 00:30:40.400 the judge buy it? Yeah. Yeah. Man. That's crazy. 00:30:40.819 --> 00:30:43.059 Right. There's the example why you need general 00:30:43.059 --> 00:30:45.440 authority. Yep. They said if I would have pulled 00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:49.549 in behind him. Then that would be one thing and 00:30:49.549 --> 00:30:53.509 contacted him then. But that's not how you make 00:30:53.509 --> 00:30:56.009 a DUI case when somebody's outside their vehicle, 00:30:56.009 --> 00:31:01.529 right? So anyway, let's start there, but yeah, 00:31:01.890 --> 00:31:04.390 no, it's a lesson that needs to be taken into 00:31:04.390 --> 00:31:07.869 seriously by any state that still has this issue, 00:31:07.869 --> 00:31:11.589 right? Or even federal agencies that might have 00:31:11.589 --> 00:31:14.309 this issue because you know, I was briefly a 00:31:14.309 --> 00:31:16.539 supervisor for. US Fish and Wildlife Service 00:31:16.539 --> 00:31:19.579 in LA, and I always told my agents, you are always 00:31:19.579 --> 00:31:23.640 enforcing the Lacey Act on or off duty. Because 00:31:23.640 --> 00:31:25.640 we had authority to carry when we were off duty, 00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:28.460 so you're always looking for a Lacey Act violation, 00:31:28.460 --> 00:31:33.339 period. We didn't do patrol work, but that's 00:31:33.339 --> 00:31:36.259 patrol work. You're always watching, looking 00:31:36.259 --> 00:31:39.440 for a violation. So you're always enforcing the 00:31:39.440 --> 00:31:41.720 act, and therefore, if you see a violation of 00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:46.160 Title 18, some criminal if you don't hesitate 00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:50.299 to deal with it. But not every supervisor in 00:31:50.299 --> 00:31:52.079 the US Fish and Wildlife Service felt that way, 00:31:52.099 --> 00:31:54.099 and I'm sure there's still some that don't view 00:31:54.099 --> 00:31:58.819 it that way. But to me, that is not a very creative 00:31:58.819 --> 00:32:02.579 way to go about supervising people or enforcing 00:32:02.579 --> 00:32:05.259 the law, because you are a public safety officer 00:32:05.259 --> 00:32:07.720 in the end, even if your job is primarily wildlife 00:32:07.720 --> 00:32:11.599 crime. Well, there's a fine line, too, because 00:32:11.599 --> 00:32:15.490 the big difference between pulling over somebody 00:32:15.490 --> 00:32:19.529 that blew past you at 90 miles an hour or pulling 00:32:19.529 --> 00:32:21.289 somebody over because you notice their tabs are 00:32:21.289 --> 00:32:32.890 expired. Officers and supervisors need to really 00:32:32.890 --> 00:32:37.829 impress upon their staff that we are fish and 00:32:37.829 --> 00:32:46.859 wildlife first. If you're Oh, I, Rugged Justice, 00:32:46.900 --> 00:32:49.119 you remember that one? Yes. When we were on Rugged 00:32:49.119 --> 00:32:55.539 Justice? Yes. One of the episodes, they were 00:32:55.539 --> 00:32:58.640 riding with an officer that was work, you know, 00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:00.660 you go to work a boat ramp as a fish and wildlife 00:33:00.660 --> 00:33:04.019 officer so that you can watch people come in 00:33:04.019 --> 00:33:06.980 and contact them and check their catch and all 00:33:06.980 --> 00:33:10.259 of that. Right. But this guy was driving around 00:33:10.259 --> 00:33:13.109 the parking lot looking for expired tabs that 00:33:13.109 --> 00:33:21.410 he could send a ticket to. General authority 00:33:21.410 --> 00:33:24.289 should be for a conservation officer. General 00:33:24.289 --> 00:33:26.809 authority should be a tool to be used in conjunction 00:33:26.809 --> 00:33:29.450 with their duties, but not something to stray 00:33:29.450 --> 00:33:31.549 away from their duties. And so there's a fine 00:33:31.549 --> 00:33:34.009 line there. No that's a good point and for me 00:33:34.009 --> 00:33:36.690 the way i would describe it would be see if you 00:33:36.690 --> 00:33:38.650 did agree with this it would be that's a performance 00:33:38.650 --> 00:33:41.829 issue right versus an authority issue right no 00:33:41.829 --> 00:33:43.970 question the officer has authority to write that 00:33:43.970 --> 00:33:47.029 ticket but. That's a performance issue that needs 00:33:47.029 --> 00:33:49.210 to be dealt with cuz that officers not focusing 00:33:49.210 --> 00:33:54.599 on the right things for their job. Yeah, that'd 00:33:54.599 --> 00:33:57.640 be like, you know, there's lots of examples. 00:33:57.720 --> 00:33:59.960 It'd be like a secret service agent focusing 00:33:59.960 --> 00:34:02.680 on something, a drug, you know, DEA stuff, you 00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:05.819 know? Yeah. They can do it, but not really there. 00:34:06.220 --> 00:34:10.619 Yeah. I mean, the way it's supposed to happen 00:34:10.619 --> 00:34:12.940 is those things fall in your lap while you're 00:34:12.940 --> 00:34:15.840 doing... Yes. I mean, I don't know how many drug 00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:20.000 cases I was involved in, but that was because, 00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:25.340 you know, because I... You know contact them 00:34:25.340 --> 00:34:27.079 and and they have drugs on them or whatever, 00:34:27.300 --> 00:34:29.039 you know where they have a warrant and so they 00:34:29.039 --> 00:34:32.119 go to jail You know that kind of stuff, but your 00:34:32.119 --> 00:34:35.219 primary focus is on protecting fish and wildlife. 00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:37.800 Yeah I don't know if you remember this or not, 00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:40.139 but Greg Hall used to be he was an officer with 00:34:40.139 --> 00:34:41.659 Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife who 00:34:41.659 --> 00:34:44.000 was on your marine detachment when I knew you 00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:48.280 When I was hanging out with you back then the 00:34:48.280 --> 00:34:50.800 he used to be able to look at somebody who he 00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:53.639 was approaching And he'd say he would say i'm 00:34:53.639 --> 00:34:56.219 gonna go we're gonna find drugs in this guy's 00:34:56.219 --> 00:34:59.739 sock we're gonna find drugs in this guy. Underwear 00:34:59.739 --> 00:35:02.880 whatever i don't know i was never with him when 00:35:02.880 --> 00:35:06.519 he wasn't right oh yeah yeah he had the nose 00:35:06.519 --> 00:35:13.719 for. For finding finding something wrong yeah 00:35:13.719 --> 00:35:16.559 no he had very good instinct on that absolutely 00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:18.500 he really did and you know one of the things 00:35:18.500 --> 00:35:21.280 i learned from you you did too. You taught me 00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:23.800 something called the oh shit look. Can you explain 00:35:23.800 --> 00:35:27.840 the shit look? I guess that's when they first 00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:30.780 realized they're going to be contacted and they 00:35:30.780 --> 00:35:33.559 know there's that, you know, they know that they've 00:35:33.559 --> 00:35:35.480 got something illegal on board or they're using 00:35:35.480 --> 00:35:37.980 illegal gear or whatever. And yeah, you get that, 00:35:38.340 --> 00:35:41.199 that deer in the headlight look. Um, and yeah, 00:35:41.260 --> 00:35:44.239 when you recognize that, you know, you're onto 00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:46.579 something. Yep, I can't tell you how many times 00:35:46.579 --> 00:35:48.619 I was with you and you were like, oh, I just 00:35:48.619 --> 00:35:52.199 got the oh shit look and a hundred percent of 00:35:52.199 --> 00:35:54.300 the time when you told me we could just got the 00:35:54.300 --> 00:35:57.119 oh shit look, you found violations on it. Yeah, 00:35:57.239 --> 00:36:01.719 yeah, never failed skills you develop. Yeah, 00:36:01.719 --> 00:36:05.599 it is. It's yeah, it's developed those and that. 00:36:05.739 --> 00:36:08.500 Yeah, I like I like to think that's what makes 00:36:08.500 --> 00:36:12.340 game wardens apart from some of our, you know, 00:36:12.440 --> 00:36:15.289 some of the other. types of law enforcement is 00:36:15.289 --> 00:36:20.329 is it really. You really have to develop the 00:36:20.329 --> 00:36:22.829 skill to be able to get where you need to go 00:36:22.829 --> 00:36:25.929 in an investigation and you know a lot of its 00:36:25.929 --> 00:36:28.889 instinct but it's not really instinct if it's 00:36:28.889 --> 00:36:32.590 if it's work for you time and time again. You 00:36:32.590 --> 00:36:34.750 know it's just one of those things that you you 00:36:34.750 --> 00:36:37.789 don't really know how you develop the skill it's 00:36:37.789 --> 00:36:41.309 almost like a subconscious skill you just kind 00:36:41.309 --> 00:36:44.469 of know. And, uh, it's hard. You couldn't really 00:36:44.469 --> 00:36:47.969 articulate how, you know, you just do. And it's 00:36:47.969 --> 00:36:51.510 built up over a series of many, many, many experiences 00:36:51.510 --> 00:36:54.369 that you probably don't even consciously register 00:36:54.369 --> 00:36:57.809 ranch. Yeah. Yeah. And then, and interesting 00:36:57.809 --> 00:37:00.630 too, you, you and I, I think shared the same 00:37:00.630 --> 00:37:02.889 philosophy about officer discretion, which I 00:37:02.889 --> 00:37:05.469 think sometimes many people in law enforcement 00:37:05.469 --> 00:37:07.969 do not really understand officer discretion. 00:37:08.309 --> 00:37:12.849 Um, it's kind of, I think unique in uh, free 00:37:12.849 --> 00:37:16.989 societies for sure. We, um, officers, just a 00:37:16.989 --> 00:37:18.630 regular officer out there in the field has a 00:37:18.630 --> 00:37:21.230 lot of discretion about when and how they enforce 00:37:21.230 --> 00:37:24.409 the law against people. And in some countries 00:37:24.409 --> 00:37:27.010 that might be viewed as corruption, right? But 00:37:27.010 --> 00:37:29.550 in the U S it's not because it's not like the 00:37:29.550 --> 00:37:33.889 officers taking something in exchange for one 00:37:33.889 --> 00:37:36.550 behavior or another. But when you were a captain 00:37:36.550 --> 00:37:39.650 and when you were a Sergeant, how did you view 00:37:39.869 --> 00:37:42.190 Officer discretion in terms of how you wanted 00:37:42.190 --> 00:37:45.369 your people to operate Did you want them to be 00:37:45.369 --> 00:37:47.449 black and white and you broke the law you're 00:37:47.449 --> 00:37:49.849 getting cited or how did you view that whole 00:37:49.849 --> 00:37:54.449 thing? Just the opposite of that Yeah, but discretion 00:37:54.449 --> 00:37:56.989 is one of your biggest responsibilities as a 00:37:56.989 --> 00:38:00.110 law enforcement officer and you have to use it 00:38:00.110 --> 00:38:03.369 wisely and you and you need to use it when what 00:38:03.369 --> 00:38:05.869 you know, I mean, there's a big difference between 00:38:05.869 --> 00:38:14.639 between some guy and his son fishing and maybe 00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:18.780 he doesn't have a license, but he's casting for 00:38:18.780 --> 00:38:23.820 the kid and handling the rod. So technically 00:38:23.820 --> 00:38:28.360 he's fishing. Well, use your discretion. I mean, 00:38:29.059 --> 00:38:32.800 he's given an orientation to his son about... 00:38:32.730 --> 00:38:35.670 the great stuff that's available to do outdoors, 00:38:36.389 --> 00:38:38.610 and then you go in and ruin it for them because 00:38:38.610 --> 00:38:42.449 you need that ticket. In fact, we had for a period 00:38:42.449 --> 00:38:49.550 of time, our chief was wanting us to have to 00:38:49.550 --> 00:38:56.820 put quotas on. targets. But so what happens then 00:38:56.820 --> 00:38:59.300 is somebody writes a ticket that they otherwise 00:38:59.300 --> 00:39:01.400 wouldn't have because they're worried that they're 00:39:01.400 --> 00:39:05.039 not going to write enough tickets. And I actually 00:39:05.039 --> 00:39:07.579 stood my ground as the captain and said, no, 00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:12.380 not in my region. We are not having quotas. And 00:39:12.380 --> 00:39:15.500 so I developed some weird mathematical things 00:39:15.500 --> 00:39:19.219 on how I could evaluate their performance without 00:39:19.219 --> 00:39:26.159 using quotas as a ticket. or as a measure. And 00:39:26.159 --> 00:39:29.980 I was able to do that. But I was the only region 00:39:29.980 --> 00:39:32.760 in the state where the officers didn't have an 00:39:32.760 --> 00:39:36.179 actual quota. Good for you. Good for you. Because 00:39:36.179 --> 00:39:38.840 I think there are intangible benefits sometimes 00:39:38.840 --> 00:39:41.059 to an officer making a decision in the field, 00:39:41.539 --> 00:39:44.059 right? Oh, yeah. And some of it comes down to 00:39:44.059 --> 00:39:47.639 that kind of unconscious. Experience that you've 00:39:47.639 --> 00:39:49.960 had and you know what who you have in front of 00:39:49.960 --> 00:39:55.039 you was a person who goofed up, right? They don't 00:39:55.039 --> 00:39:57.659 need to have their entire weekend and the experience 00:39:57.659 --> 00:40:01.539 with their children and and They're just impression 00:40:01.539 --> 00:40:04.980 of fishing or hunting to be ruined, right? They 00:40:04.980 --> 00:40:07.099 need they're probably scared to death already 00:40:07.099 --> 00:40:10.260 that you contacted them, right? Sure sure And 00:40:10.260 --> 00:40:12.199 then there are other people who are actively, 00:40:12.199 --> 00:40:14.659 they don't give a shit and they're actively trying 00:40:14.659 --> 00:40:16.239 to break the law and they're sneaking around 00:40:16.239 --> 00:40:17.940 and they're looking for you when you come and 00:40:17.940 --> 00:40:19.380 they lie to you when you talk. Those are the 00:40:19.380 --> 00:40:21.619 ones you want. Yep. Those are the ones you want. 00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:25.239 I was going to say something very insightful 00:40:25.239 --> 00:40:26.800 and intelligent and I can't remember what it 00:40:26.800 --> 00:40:34.119 was. Let me ask you this on that regard. Well, 00:40:34.119 --> 00:40:36.159 how would you describe those intangible benefits? 00:40:36.159 --> 00:40:38.360 But for example, I remember one time I was with 00:40:38.360 --> 00:40:41.199 you and I think we were maybe a guy was crabbing 00:40:41.199 --> 00:40:43.659 and he was with his son and they were they had 00:40:43.659 --> 00:40:46.679 too many crabs and I remember you, you know, 00:40:46.679 --> 00:40:49.360 you walked away and you and I had a conversation 00:40:49.360 --> 00:40:51.420 and you just were kind of educating me on what 00:40:51.420 --> 00:40:54.099 you're thinking. You said hey, the guy's like 00:40:54.099 --> 00:40:57.739 two crabs over or whatever. He's here with his 00:40:57.739 --> 00:41:00.960 10 year old son. I don't want to ruin crab fishing 00:41:00.960 --> 00:41:05.170 for this kid. So you did not cite him. Right. 00:41:05.309 --> 00:41:08.590 So what's the bigger benefit to, you know, some 00:41:08.590 --> 00:41:10.630 people might say, well, he was two crabs over. 00:41:10.849 --> 00:41:12.929 He needs a ticket. What's the bigger benefit 00:41:12.929 --> 00:41:17.789 there? Well, yeah, I mean, you're you're representing 00:41:17.789 --> 00:41:22.989 your agency and you're trying to create or maintain 00:41:22.989 --> 00:41:28.489 a good image for for the entire agency. So, you 00:41:28.489 --> 00:41:30.989 know, the old he'll go and tell two people the 00:41:30.989 --> 00:41:34.199 story about. how great, you know, how professional 00:41:34.199 --> 00:41:37.960 and great those two guys were when they contacted 00:41:37.960 --> 00:41:40.820 me. And they'll tell two people, and it's the 00:41:40.820 --> 00:41:42.679 same story, and each of those will tell two, 00:41:42.699 --> 00:41:46.099 you know, and the story gets out. Same, unfortunately, 00:41:46.739 --> 00:41:52.800 with when a person, you know, if a person doesn't 00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:56.559 use discretion and they leave, you know, and 00:41:56.559 --> 00:41:59.269 they tell two people about... the chickenship 00:41:59.269 --> 00:42:02.849 ticket that they got and the word spreads. Now, 00:42:03.130 --> 00:42:07.469 I will say though, the version of the person 00:42:07.469 --> 00:42:11.230 who got cited and the reality of the contact 00:42:11.230 --> 00:42:14.289 are very two different versions usually, almost 00:42:14.289 --> 00:42:19.030 always. Almost always, yeah, almost always. I 00:42:19.030 --> 00:42:21.550 teach criminal justice at Cal State and sometimes 00:42:21.550 --> 00:42:24.969 my students will say things like, you know, How 00:42:24.969 --> 00:42:27.969 come one person doesn't get a traffic ticket 00:42:27.969 --> 00:42:31.429 from a LAPD officer and another person did the 00:42:31.429 --> 00:42:33.469 exact same traffic offense and they do get a 00:42:33.469 --> 00:42:36.610 ticket? And they kind of are talking about it 00:42:36.610 --> 00:42:38.690 as if it's a negative that officers have the 00:42:38.690 --> 00:42:41.750 discretion to make the call. But I think in a 00:42:41.750 --> 00:42:44.170 free society, we want officers to have a lot 00:42:44.170 --> 00:42:46.469 of discretion. We don't want them taking bribes. 00:42:46.510 --> 00:42:48.730 We don't want them giving favorites to people 00:42:48.730 --> 00:42:53.300 based on race or pretty woman or whatever. we 00:42:53.300 --> 00:42:55.980 want officers to be able to look at who they 00:42:55.980 --> 00:42:58.480 have in front of them and make a call. The totality 00:42:58.480 --> 00:43:00.440 of the circumstances. Totality of the circumstances. 00:43:00.800 --> 00:43:02.400 Yeah. You've got to weigh everything in and decide 00:43:02.400 --> 00:43:06.760 whether a citation is the way to educate the 00:43:06.760 --> 00:43:11.780 person or they can be, you know, it's a minor 00:43:11.780 --> 00:43:14.239 offense and you can educate them without the 00:43:14.239 --> 00:43:17.960 citation and maybe even have a better result. 00:43:18.440 --> 00:43:22.280 Exactly. Yeah. Now, before we move on, did you 00:43:22.280 --> 00:43:24.019 remember the insightful thing you wanted to say? 00:43:24.699 --> 00:43:28.340 Yeah, I think I was going to say we didn't want 00:43:28.340 --> 00:43:31.340 those back on the discretion issue or on the 00:43:31.340 --> 00:43:34.579 quota issue. And that was I never wanted to I 00:43:34.579 --> 00:43:36.440 never wanted an officer to feel like they had 00:43:36.440 --> 00:43:39.119 to write a ticket that they wouldn't otherwise 00:43:39.119 --> 00:43:41.599 have done just because they're trying to reach 00:43:41.599 --> 00:43:45.159 a number. Exactly. I think that's a perfect place 00:43:45.159 --> 00:43:49.340 to end our discussion on discretion. That's yeah. 00:43:49.639 --> 00:43:51.260 I think that's what made you a great supervisor, 00:43:51.699 --> 00:43:54.739 Dan. One of the things, you know, in this show, 00:43:54.920 --> 00:43:58.260 you and I are having a very kind of broad ranging 00:43:58.260 --> 00:44:01.340 general discussion on this podcast. One of the 00:44:01.340 --> 00:44:04.380 things I try to focus on are bigger issues, bigger, 00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:07.659 bigger problems, areas where wildlife conservation 00:44:07.659 --> 00:44:10.139 law enforcement officers are involved in, you 00:44:10.139 --> 00:44:12.860 know, bigger picture issues, mostly like trafficking 00:44:12.860 --> 00:44:16.619 and saving species versus animals, things like 00:44:16.619 --> 00:44:20.309 that. One of the things that Washington Was into 00:44:20.309 --> 00:44:22.570 back when i was there in the nineties i think 00:44:22.570 --> 00:44:27.010 i assume they still are because she is shellfish 00:44:27.010 --> 00:44:32.369 enforcement and the reasons for their focus on 00:44:32.369 --> 00:44:34.730 shellfish enforcement i think will kind of surprise 00:44:34.730 --> 00:44:37.809 people and before and before you explain it. 00:44:38.630 --> 00:44:41.510 I think most people just assume it's a conservation 00:44:41.510 --> 00:44:44.710 issue but it's not and i just want to point out 00:44:44.710 --> 00:44:47.480 that you know. People who do not are not familiar 00:44:47.480 --> 00:44:49.739 with the Pacific Northwest and Washington State 00:44:49.739 --> 00:44:52.420 in particular You have to understand that the 00:44:52.420 --> 00:44:57.780 Puget Sound has over 2 ,500 miles 2 ,500 miles 00:44:57.780 --> 00:45:00.820 of coastline just you know, that's the inside 00:45:00.820 --> 00:45:04.300 of the sound So that's a huge area and a lot 00:45:04.300 --> 00:45:09.030 of it is prime habitat for shellfish And can 00:45:09.030 --> 00:45:12.510 you explain why is Washington Department of Fish 00:45:12.510 --> 00:45:15.070 and Wildlife so interested in shellfish enforcement 00:45:15.070 --> 00:45:17.570 and why is that so important? Right, yeah, you're 00:45:17.570 --> 00:45:22.630 right. It's not a conservation issue. It's a 00:45:22.630 --> 00:45:26.750 human safety and health issue. Why? So here's 00:45:26.750 --> 00:45:31.610 the scenario, right? So the Department of Health 00:45:31.610 --> 00:45:43.710 and the U .S. FDA, their programs ensure that 00:45:43.710 --> 00:45:48.409 the contaminated clams from pollution or sewer 00:45:48.409 --> 00:45:54.170 or whatever are restricted from being commercially 00:45:54.170 --> 00:45:59.409 harvested and sold into the market. And so we 00:45:59.409 --> 00:46:03.010 have areas that are closed for those reasons, 00:46:04.769 --> 00:46:09.679 like dyes inlet and up in Bremerton, you know, 00:46:09.679 --> 00:46:13.199 it gets all the runoff from the city streets. 00:46:13.199 --> 00:46:17.019 It has sewer outlets all over the place. During 00:46:17.019 --> 00:46:19.739 heavy rainfalls, their sewer system sometimes 00:46:19.739 --> 00:46:23.280 fail and the overflow goes right in into the 00:46:23.280 --> 00:46:28.960 water and it's prime habitat for like clams and 00:46:28.960 --> 00:46:34.000 oysters, particularly clams, manila clams, steamers. 00:46:36.539 --> 00:46:40.179 So those areas are closed, but they are absolutely 00:46:40.179 --> 00:46:44.260 rich in clams. I mean, you can literally go down 00:46:44.260 --> 00:46:48.320 and scrape your boot across the gravel and flip 00:46:48.320 --> 00:46:53.519 a dozen manila clams. Wow. Yeah, we called them 00:46:53.519 --> 00:46:58.139 Bremerton Browns because they were sewer. They 00:46:58.139 --> 00:47:00.260 were growing on sewer. You know, they were eating 00:47:00.260 --> 00:47:04.880 the stuff from the sewer outflow. That's the 00:47:04.880 --> 00:47:06.539 crazy thing, right? Because these are filter 00:47:06.539 --> 00:47:10.300 feeders. And often in these beaches that are 00:47:10.300 --> 00:47:13.539 contaminated with raw sewage, they thrive. They 00:47:13.539 --> 00:47:17.079 love it. But because they're filter feeders, 00:47:17.099 --> 00:47:19.659 they take all these contaminants into their bodies. 00:47:20.840 --> 00:47:23.980 Yeah. And because the area is closed to commercial 00:47:23.980 --> 00:47:29.539 harvesting, it's like I say, it's just rich with 00:47:29.539 --> 00:47:33.289 shellfish. And shellfish, I mean, in those kind 00:47:33.289 --> 00:47:37.590 of areas, one person can dig 200 pounds of clams 00:47:37.590 --> 00:47:41.309 in that tide. So what would be the incentive 00:47:41.309 --> 00:47:46.590 for somebody to go do that? What's somebody going 00:47:46.590 --> 00:47:48.869 to do with 200 pounds of clams that they dig? 00:47:49.010 --> 00:47:52.210 Right. So the number of different ways they can 00:47:52.210 --> 00:47:59.150 camouflage it as a legitimate, say they're a 00:47:59.150 --> 00:48:03.489 rogue shellfish company. hundreds of very small 00:48:03.489 --> 00:48:06.269 shellfish companies, you know, just people that 00:48:06.269 --> 00:48:09.409 have one beach that, you know, get licensed and 00:48:09.409 --> 00:48:13.570 all of that. And so one mechanism is to use your 00:48:13.570 --> 00:48:16.730 shellfish tags because every big has to be tagged 00:48:16.730 --> 00:48:20.590 with the date it was harvested and where it was 00:48:20.590 --> 00:48:25.150 harvested and all of that. And so if you could 00:48:25.150 --> 00:48:29.210 successfully get away with that night of poaching 00:48:29.210 --> 00:48:35.059 and take the clams to your house or whatever 00:48:35.059 --> 00:48:39.260 and then tag them and then take them to the market, 00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:41.860 representing them as coming from a different 00:48:41.860 --> 00:48:45.340 beach. There's also just simply the black market. 00:48:47.599 --> 00:48:50.179 Throw your clams in your trunk of your car and 00:48:50.179 --> 00:48:52.719 go shopping around at restaurants that want to 00:48:52.719 --> 00:49:00.679 buy them or taverns. Then you have the whole 00:49:00.650 --> 00:49:08.010 a tribal authority or tribal issues where if 00:49:08.010 --> 00:49:12.329 you had a buddy that was a tribal member and 00:49:12.329 --> 00:49:15.989 willing to take your clams, he'd go through and 00:49:15.989 --> 00:49:18.949 sell them as though it was off of a tribal dig. 00:49:20.130 --> 00:49:23.710 And so it's important to catch them in the act. 00:49:24.090 --> 00:49:27.170 Not that we haven't done huge investigations 00:49:27.170 --> 00:49:30.349 where we're able to put paper trails together 00:49:30.349 --> 00:49:33.469 and all of that. But but ideally you catch them 00:49:33.469 --> 00:49:38.690 in the act. And it's usually at night. They're 00:49:38.690 --> 00:49:42.650 very crafty in how they get away with it. In 00:49:42.650 --> 00:49:45.869 fact, I like to I like to I always like to call 00:49:45.869 --> 00:49:48.110 the evolution of the of the clam poacher, the 00:49:48.110 --> 00:49:49.869 dirty clam poacher. That's the other things we 00:49:49.869 --> 00:49:54.909 call them dirty clams. Yeah, you know. Sorry, 00:49:55.010 --> 00:49:56.789 go ahead. Oh, I was just going to say it was 00:49:56.789 --> 00:50:00.460 it was. It was really incredible to watch over 00:50:00.460 --> 00:50:04.219 the years because when I first came on, there 00:50:04.219 --> 00:50:07.739 wasn't a lot of active enforcement in that. In 00:50:07.739 --> 00:50:13.099 fact, I think mine and Duane McAveaney's positions 00:50:13.099 --> 00:50:16.320 at the time were funded by Department of Health. 00:50:18.860 --> 00:50:23.900 Not that our duties were solely sanitary shellfish 00:50:23.900 --> 00:50:28.199 enforcement, but that Legislature appropriated 00:50:28.199 --> 00:50:30.480 money for two officers to help with with that 00:50:30.480 --> 00:50:33.260 issue out of deal after Department of Health 00:50:33.260 --> 00:50:36.119 budget. Yeah, right. Yeah Yeah, and you know, 00:50:36.239 --> 00:50:38.119 that's that's another example performance issue, 00:50:38.280 --> 00:50:41.119 right? So you're a fully you commissioned fish 00:50:41.119 --> 00:50:43.179 and wildlife officer But your primary duty is 00:50:43.179 --> 00:50:45.659 to be focusing on these sanitary selfish issues, 00:50:45.760 --> 00:50:49.820 right? Yeah. Well, yeah the way the way it works 00:50:49.820 --> 00:50:53.960 usually is is you get approval for those positions 00:50:53.960 --> 00:51:00.380 but But the. But everybody is supposed, you know, 00:51:00.539 --> 00:51:04.420 yeah, everybody's designated for that. For that 00:51:04.420 --> 00:51:07.079 work, everybody shares in it, right? Everybody 00:51:07.079 --> 00:51:09.539 it's probably high priority for the department. 00:51:09.599 --> 00:51:12.119 Everybody's going to work on it, right? So just 00:51:12.119 --> 00:51:13.880 so people understand. So we're talking about 00:51:13.880 --> 00:51:16.559 commercial. This is the danger here is commercialization 00:51:16.559 --> 00:51:20.340 of these clients, which is so often the issue 00:51:20.340 --> 00:51:24.480 in all. truly the bigger issue, wildlife conservation 00:51:24.480 --> 00:51:26.599 or wildlife cases, it's really commercialization 00:51:26.599 --> 00:51:29.039 that does damage one way or the other, either 00:51:29.039 --> 00:51:32.699 populations or public health. What could happen 00:51:32.699 --> 00:51:35.420 if these clams get into our food chain? They 00:51:35.420 --> 00:51:37.860 get into restaurants up in Seattle or Tacoma. 00:51:37.880 --> 00:51:43.280 They could have a number of different health 00:51:43.280 --> 00:51:46.980 issues, paralytic shellfish poisoning, E. coli. 00:51:48.019 --> 00:51:53.489 I'm trying to remember the... the name of the 00:51:53.489 --> 00:52:00.570 algae that occurs. Anyway, a number of things. 00:52:01.170 --> 00:52:12.449 You know, the virus that happens on sales, vacation 00:52:12.449 --> 00:52:18.070 cruises. What is that, neurovirus or whatever? 00:52:18.429 --> 00:52:20.550 Yeah, norovirus, right? Norovirus, there you 00:52:20.550 --> 00:52:26.050 go. Yeah, just a number of things and they can 00:52:26.050 --> 00:52:31.989 affect especially the elderly or people that 00:52:31.989 --> 00:52:36.849 already have low immune system and it can hospitalize 00:52:36.849 --> 00:52:39.989 people and it can cause death. Yeah, it can kill 00:52:39.989 --> 00:52:46.449 people. And who'd have thought a fish and wildlife 00:52:46.449 --> 00:52:50.809 officer is out there involved in kind of a pretty 00:52:50.809 --> 00:52:54.489 critical public health issue, right? Yeah. Maybe 00:52:54.489 --> 00:52:57.730 preventing death from people who eat contaminated 00:52:57.730 --> 00:52:59.610 shellfish at restaurants in Seattle. And that 00:52:59.610 --> 00:53:03.710 could be a tourist from Germany or me or you, 00:53:03.889 --> 00:53:08.250 right? And so to me that is just one of the more 00:53:08.250 --> 00:53:11.150 interesting things and especially since the officer 00:53:11.150 --> 00:53:13.449 positions are funded by the washington department 00:53:13.449 --> 00:53:16.630 of health because there's an opportunity here 00:53:16.630 --> 00:53:20.510 i think at the federal level like there are wildlife 00:53:20.510 --> 00:53:23.730 trafficking presents public health issues such 00:53:23.730 --> 00:53:26.030 as the introduction of bird flu into the united 00:53:26.030 --> 00:53:28.489 states there are lots of birds traffic around 00:53:28.489 --> 00:53:31.010 the world all the time and a lot of traffic on 00:53:31.010 --> 00:53:35.030 in the passenger compartments of long haul. commercial 00:53:35.030 --> 00:53:38.429 airline flights. So somebody sitting next to 00:53:38.429 --> 00:53:41.150 you for 17 hours that has live birds strapped 00:53:41.150 --> 00:53:45.050 to their body came from the wild. Anyway, I think 00:53:45.050 --> 00:53:47.590 there's room at the federal level for some of 00:53:47.590 --> 00:53:50.710 these federal public health agencies to fund 00:53:50.710 --> 00:53:53.710 some law enforcement work to try to prevent the 00:53:53.710 --> 00:53:56.489 origin of zoonotic diseases that could kill us. 00:53:56.849 --> 00:53:59.369 Right. Right. I think that's a very cool thing 00:53:59.369 --> 00:54:02.909 that the department does. Yeah. You know, just 00:54:02.909 --> 00:54:07.889 just so that just for accuracy. Those positions 00:54:07.889 --> 00:54:14.150 initially were funded for that purpose. But I 00:54:14.150 --> 00:54:16.949 don't think that the Department of Health actually 00:54:16.949 --> 00:54:19.550 funds us each year. I think that those ended 00:54:19.550 --> 00:54:24.050 up being into our budget. So we don't actively 00:54:24.050 --> 00:54:26.909 dip into Department of Health funds for those 00:54:26.909 --> 00:54:30.369 positions. Okay. Did it start that way though? 00:54:31.250 --> 00:54:36.000 You know, I'm not really... sure if if the funds 00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:40.199 were reduced from Department of Health funds 00:54:40.199 --> 00:54:43.519 that you know during that biennium or or if it 00:54:43.519 --> 00:54:47.599 was You know funds created by the or allotted 00:54:47.599 --> 00:54:50.579 by the legislature for that purpose Yeah, maybe 00:54:50.579 --> 00:54:52.239 it was just the Washington Department of Health 00:54:52.239 --> 00:54:54.860 went to legislature and say hey, you know, we 00:54:54.860 --> 00:54:57.300 need this That could be what happened. Yeah, 00:54:57.300 --> 00:55:01.860 this is back in 1987. So yeah Remember the details. 00:55:02.699 --> 00:55:05.400 It's a program that's been around a while. But 00:55:05.400 --> 00:55:08.599 it's great because it illustrates how different 00:55:08.599 --> 00:55:11.539 agencies can complement each other's missions, 00:55:11.699 --> 00:55:16.460 right? Right. Yeah. OK, so we're coming to the 00:55:16.460 --> 00:55:18.300 end of our time, Dan. But one of the things I 00:55:18.300 --> 00:55:20.980 wanted to ask you about, I don't know the details 00:55:20.980 --> 00:55:22.860 really. I'm sure you told me at one point years 00:55:22.860 --> 00:55:26.300 ago. But there was a time earlier in your career, 00:55:26.360 --> 00:55:28.860 I think you were a wildlife officer, where you 00:55:28.719 --> 00:55:31.460 Somebody pretty seriously assaulted you on the 00:55:31.460 --> 00:55:35.320 job. Do you recall the circumstances of that 00:55:35.320 --> 00:55:37.400 or what happened? In fact, it was related to 00:55:37.400 --> 00:55:39.800 sanitary shellfish enforcement. In the middle 00:55:39.800 --> 00:55:48.619 of the night, we were staking out a boat ramp 00:55:48.619 --> 00:55:53.699 in an area that's closed for commercial activity. 00:55:55.099 --> 00:56:01.199 And what the heck? Came came in like really super 00:56:01.199 --> 00:56:04.400 fast and skidded down the ramp and turned around 00:56:04.400 --> 00:56:12.199 and went racing off and and And we went After 00:56:12.199 --> 00:56:13.960 him, I think I was working with Steve DiMero 00:56:13.960 --> 00:56:16.920 remember him. I do remember Steve. Yeah. Yeah 00:56:16.920 --> 00:56:22.000 and Somehow or another they I don't think we 00:56:22.000 --> 00:56:24.099 were able to catch up to them or whatever. But 00:56:24.099 --> 00:56:27.539 then then we get a call from state patrol saying 00:56:27.539 --> 00:56:32.800 that there was a car in a ditch, you know, a 00:56:32.800 --> 00:56:35.619 few miles away from us. Obviously, those people 00:56:35.619 --> 00:56:43.900 and and that they had walked to a small grocery 00:56:43.900 --> 00:56:49.179 store nearby and they wanted somebody to contact 00:56:49.179 --> 00:56:51.360 them, hold them for them, investigate them for 00:56:51.360 --> 00:56:56.670 for that. vehicle accident. Right. So, so we 00:56:56.670 --> 00:57:00.869 pull up and, and see, you know, see like, I know, 00:57:00.949 --> 00:57:05.289 three or four guys standing in the parking lot 00:57:05.289 --> 00:57:10.730 of this gas station. And as we pull up, one of 00:57:10.730 --> 00:57:17.929 them bails. Highway. I, I just instinctually 00:57:17.929 --> 00:57:24.429 just jump out and run after him. He, uh, he runs 00:57:24.429 --> 00:57:28.050 across the driveway or the highway, hits a barbed 00:57:28.050 --> 00:57:31.309 wire fence, flips right over it and takes off 00:57:31.309 --> 00:57:33.849 running. Cause I thought I'd just catch him at 00:57:33.849 --> 00:57:36.409 the fence, you know? Right. Yeah. But no, he 00:57:36.409 --> 00:57:39.170 just flips right over that thing, takes off running. 00:57:39.610 --> 00:57:42.530 So, so I crawl through the fence and take off 00:57:42.530 --> 00:57:45.909 running after him out through this pasture. And 00:57:45.909 --> 00:57:49.170 I'm saying, stop police, stop you're under arrest. 00:57:49.530 --> 00:57:54.909 And he keeps putting his hands. towards his waistline. 00:57:55.829 --> 00:57:57.670 Keep your hands where I can see him. Stop. Keep 00:57:57.670 --> 00:58:00.989 your hands where I can see him. And at one point 00:58:00.989 --> 00:58:07.789 he trips and falls, which allowed me to come 00:58:07.789 --> 00:58:09.769 up and I just kind of, just as he's getting up, 00:58:09.949 --> 00:58:12.610 I just slam into him with my full body weight 00:58:12.610 --> 00:58:15.989 to, not that he was about twice my size, but. 00:58:17.039 --> 00:58:19.260 Now, Dan, you and I are about the same height. 00:58:19.780 --> 00:58:21.860 We're not the tallest guys in the in the crowd. 00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:27.679 Yeah. Yeah. And and as I do that, I kind of roll 00:58:27.679 --> 00:58:31.440 past him. And so as I'm getting up, he's on me, 00:58:31.440 --> 00:58:35.300 yelling at me, screaming, and he tackles me. 00:58:35.300 --> 00:58:39.199 I got this guy that's two hundred and seventy 00:58:39.199 --> 00:58:42.880 pounds or whatever on him. Six foot something. 00:58:43.619 --> 00:58:47.349 Now he's attacking me. And he's got me wrapped, 00:58:47.570 --> 00:58:50.969 got my arms wrapped, um, and down on the ground. 00:58:51.130 --> 00:58:55.329 And so, uh, I used to wrestle, you know, in junior 00:58:55.329 --> 00:58:58.090 high and high school. And so I more just kind 00:58:58.090 --> 00:59:00.369 of went into a wrestling mode to get onto my 00:59:00.369 --> 00:59:03.349 stomach and then out from under him. And I get 00:59:03.349 --> 00:59:08.110 on top of him with, with a hair hold and, uh, 00:59:08.190 --> 00:59:09.889 hair holds, you know, they don't use, they don't 00:59:09.889 --> 00:59:12.090 teach that anymore, but that's one of the greatest 00:59:12.090 --> 00:59:14.679 way of controlling somebody. Yeah. Yeah, you 00:59:14.679 --> 00:59:16.420 know, you grab a fistful of hair and squeeze 00:59:16.420 --> 00:59:20.739 as hard as you can. Yeah. And so he's basically 00:59:20.739 --> 00:59:25.280 I basically felt like I was on a on a a bull 00:59:25.280 --> 00:59:29.900 riding a bull, you know, you know, and he's keeping 00:59:29.900 --> 00:59:32.099 trying to put his hands, you know, I'm saying, 00:59:32.099 --> 00:59:34.159 show me your hands, get your hands out. You know, 00:59:34.199 --> 00:59:36.960 you're under arrest. Put your hands out. And 00:59:36.960 --> 00:59:39.380 he starts yelling at me to kill him. Kill me. 00:59:39.440 --> 00:59:42.400 Just kill me. Kill me. I wanted to kill me. And 00:59:42.400 --> 00:59:45.039 I'm like, oh boy, this is the real fight for 00:59:45.039 --> 00:59:50.000 life here. And anyway, so it goes on a little 00:59:50.000 --> 00:59:53.159 bit. It's winter time. I have gloves on, right? 00:59:53.500 --> 00:59:56.900 It was OK for the hair hold. So I get my pepper 00:59:56.900 --> 01:00:00.960 spray out, and I could get it to go. So I've 01:00:00.960 --> 01:00:03.280 got it right in front of his face, and my gloves 01:00:03.280 --> 01:00:06.780 are restricting me from. pushing the top down, 01:00:07.059 --> 01:00:09.300 but he sees, he finally recognizes that I'm trying 01:00:09.300 --> 01:00:11.440 to spray him. And at that point he goes, don't 01:00:11.440 --> 01:00:13.000 spray me, don't spray me, don't spray me. And 01:00:13.000 --> 01:00:15.039 he puts his hands out and I was able to arrest 01:00:15.039 --> 01:00:18.000 him. Well, he didn't have a weapon on him, but 01:00:18.000 --> 01:00:21.460 he had a pocket full of meth. That's why he kept 01:00:21.460 --> 01:00:22.860 trying to reach in it, cause he's trying to get 01:00:22.860 --> 01:00:25.619 rid of it, you know. Get rid of his meth. Yeah. 01:00:27.440 --> 01:00:29.579 Crazy cause reaching, you know, just reaching 01:00:29.579 --> 01:00:31.760 for something that could be a weapon would be. 01:00:31.800 --> 01:00:34.099 Oh yeah. there's a good chance that a police 01:00:34.099 --> 01:00:36.519 officer could shoot you at that point. Right, 01:00:36.579 --> 01:00:42.000 yeah. But yeah, so that was one of my biggest 01:00:42.000 --> 01:00:45.760 altercations in my career. That went similar 01:00:45.760 --> 01:00:51.980 before I was a fish cop, but anyway, yeah. And 01:00:51.980 --> 01:00:56.880 he was so high on meth that he had like a heart 01:00:56.880 --> 01:01:01.000 rate of like 185 or something, and so we took 01:01:01.000 --> 01:01:04.190 him to the hospital. and stayed there with him, 01:01:04.190 --> 01:01:07.769 you know, and it was hours before his heart rate 01:01:07.769 --> 01:01:11.670 came down. And anyway, he's doing prison time. 01:01:11.690 --> 01:01:13.829 So we charged him with assault and police officer. 01:01:14.010 --> 01:01:16.250 Yeah, I think he did like five years or something. 01:01:16.889 --> 01:01:18.550 Yeah. Remember, he got a pretty good sentence 01:01:18.550 --> 01:01:22.010 for arresting you. Yeah. Yeah. Those are scary 01:01:22.010 --> 01:01:24.429 situations that can unfold so quickly because 01:01:24.429 --> 01:01:26.550 like you said, you see, you know, you see somebody 01:01:26.550 --> 01:01:28.989 run if you're a proactive, aggressive officer, 01:01:28.989 --> 01:01:32.630 you take off after them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And 01:01:32.630 --> 01:01:33.949 then all of a sudden, pretty quickly you find 01:01:33.949 --> 01:01:36.469 yourself alone in a field. I find myself, you 01:01:36.469 --> 01:01:40.469 know, a couple hundred yards away. And of course, 01:01:40.670 --> 01:01:43.429 Steve DiMero, he's got three people. He's trying 01:01:43.429 --> 01:01:48.250 to deal with two and he's looking back. Exactly. 01:01:49.110 --> 01:01:52.750 Man, I didn't know what to do. And, you know, 01:01:52.750 --> 01:01:55.150 if you think about the situation, yes, Puget 01:01:55.150 --> 01:01:57.289 Sound is highly populated, but there are areas 01:01:57.289 --> 01:01:59.769 around the Sound, particularly in areas where, 01:01:59.769 --> 01:02:01.909 you know, people are doing nefarious things at 01:02:01.909 --> 01:02:05.230 night that are pretty remote. And you were likely, 01:02:05.449 --> 01:02:08.949 it was, the backup for you was a ways away, probably. 01:02:09.750 --> 01:02:11.670 Oh, yeah. Washington State Patrol would have 01:02:11.670 --> 01:02:13.969 been the closest, they wouldn't have gotten there. 01:02:14.269 --> 01:02:17.210 Nixon rolled in, he rolled in, just as I was 01:02:17.210 --> 01:02:20.940 coming out of the field with him. Yeah. You said 01:02:20.940 --> 01:02:24.739 Matt Nixon did? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's it's really 01:02:24.739 --> 01:02:27.960 I remember that story telling me that you'd been 01:02:27.960 --> 01:02:30.960 assaulted and you know, that's something that's 01:02:30.960 --> 01:02:32.420 very important to pay attention to if you're 01:02:32.420 --> 01:02:34.920 out there working alone is for sure. Because, 01:02:34.920 --> 01:02:37.360 you know, not only could he be reaching for a 01:02:37.360 --> 01:02:40.119 gun, but what people always have to remember 01:02:40.119 --> 01:02:43.139 is whenever an officer gets involved in an altercation, 01:02:43.719 --> 01:02:45.980 there's always a gun in the altercations and 01:02:45.980 --> 01:02:49.219 it's your gun. It might be your gun, right? If 01:02:49.219 --> 01:02:52.059 he gets ahold of your gun, that's trouble. Yeah, 01:02:52.280 --> 01:02:57.920 game over. Game over. Yeah, exactly. People used 01:02:57.920 --> 01:03:01.780 to comment like, you know, you're working with 01:03:01.780 --> 01:03:03.639 a Pierce County sheriff's deputy or something 01:03:03.639 --> 01:03:07.340 or having coffee with them or whatever. And, 01:03:07.639 --> 01:03:11.880 you know, they're they're seeing bad shit every 01:03:11.880 --> 01:03:16.139 day. Right. And and they would say, you guys 01:03:16.139 --> 01:03:20.420 are crazy for doing what you do. I go, are you 01:03:20.420 --> 01:03:24.059 crazy for doing what you do? He goes, yeah, but 01:03:24.059 --> 01:03:27.300 I always have backup within 30 seconds or a minute. 01:03:29.500 --> 01:03:32.980 That's exactly right. And we'll leave our listeners 01:03:32.980 --> 01:03:35.639 on this note. If you look at the US Department 01:03:35.639 --> 01:03:41.820 of Justice statistics, wildlife conservation 01:03:41.820 --> 01:03:44.320 officers are statistically much more likely to 01:03:44.320 --> 01:03:46.360 be assaulted in the field than any other law 01:03:46.360 --> 01:03:50.289 enforcement officer. Yeah, so a game warden in 01:03:50.289 --> 01:03:52.889 Washington state working Puget Sound is more 01:03:52.889 --> 01:03:54.869 likely to be assaulted in the line of duty than 01:03:54.869 --> 01:03:57.670 an LAPD officer working downtown Los Angeles. 01:03:57.969 --> 01:04:01.590 So it's weird to think that, isn't it? But it 01:04:01.590 --> 01:04:05.710 is. But it's sobering. Yeah, 90 % of the people 01:04:05.710 --> 01:04:10.570 we we contact, you know, are just great people 01:04:10.570 --> 01:04:13.510 having, you know, taken taken advantage of the 01:04:13.510 --> 01:04:15.730 opportunity to harvest, you know, shellfish or 01:04:15.730 --> 01:04:19.269 wildlife. So right. Right. And then adding on 01:04:19.269 --> 01:04:21.309 top of that, when you're out there looking at 01:04:21.309 --> 01:04:23.590 people who could be commercially poaching, right? 01:04:24.929 --> 01:04:28.909 They got money involved. They gave money at stake. 01:04:30.190 --> 01:04:33.650 I always say things that make people really dangerous 01:04:33.650 --> 01:04:35.650 when they think you're going to take their liberty 01:04:35.650 --> 01:04:37.769 away. So if they're about to be arrested, that 01:04:37.769 --> 01:04:40.190 could be a dangerous person. If you're going 01:04:40.190 --> 01:04:42.170 to go into their home, like on a search warrant, 01:04:42.230 --> 01:04:44.610 that's a dangerous person because people protect 01:04:44.610 --> 01:04:46.650 their homes. And then the other thing is, if 01:04:46.650 --> 01:04:49.980 you're about to take their their money, their 01:04:49.980 --> 01:04:53.119 living, or putting that at jeopardy. That's something 01:04:53.119 --> 01:04:57.239 people will fight you for. Yep. And in our line 01:04:57.239 --> 01:05:00.059 of work, everybody we contact has either a gun, 01:05:00.260 --> 01:05:02.940 a knife, or both. Exactly right. That's exactly 01:05:02.940 --> 01:05:06.199 right. Well, Dan, listen, I can't tell you how 01:05:06.199 --> 01:05:09.420 much I've appreciated having this really interesting, 01:05:09.760 --> 01:05:12.440 broad conversation with you. You're one of my 01:05:12.440 --> 01:05:16.639 all -time favorite law enforcement persons. People 01:05:16.639 --> 01:05:19.719 in general, I constantly, you know, while I was 01:05:19.719 --> 01:05:21.780 on the job, I always asked myself, what would 01:05:21.780 --> 01:05:25.920 Dan do? Just asking what Ed's mother would do 01:05:25.920 --> 01:05:29.900 now. So yeah, it was another good thing. What 01:05:29.900 --> 01:05:32.300 would mom think? Yeah, that's always a good rule 01:05:32.300 --> 01:05:36.099 to follow. Anyway, Dan, I appreciate you coming 01:05:36.099 --> 01:05:38.820 on the show. I hope to have you back sometime. 01:05:39.500 --> 01:05:42.500 I'd love to be a regular. Yeah, I think you'd 01:05:42.500 --> 01:05:45.480 be a great regular. But thank you so much. I 01:05:45.480 --> 01:05:48.800 appreciate your time and we will see everybody 01:05:48.800 --> 01:05:51.079 next time. All right, Ed. All right. Thank you. 01:05:51.179 --> 01:05:54.119 Thanks for having me. You bet. Nature's Secret 01:05:54.119 --> 01:05:56.860 Service is written and produced by me, Ed Newcomer, 01:05:57.079 --> 01:05:59.960 and is co -produced by the DHTV team here at 01:05:59.960 --> 01:06:02.179 California State University Dominguez Hills. 01:06:02.480 --> 01:06:04.519 Follow us on social media and connect with us 01:06:04.519 --> 01:06:06.780 online at naturessecretservice .com.