If you want to learn more about the topics of
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Okay, people listen up. Here we go. This is Nature's
Secret Service, the podcast that puts you in
the room with the men and women of wildlife law
enforcement. I'm Ed Newcomer, your host. And
today we have Brian Christie with us. Brian is
an author, a journalist, and a filmmaker. He's
written a fictional espionage thriller entitled
In the Company of Killers. but he's also the
author of a nonfiction book called The Lizard
King, which takes a really fascinating deep dive
into reptile trafficking in the United States.
He founded National Geographic's first investigations
unit that looked into wildlife crime, and he's
a National Geographic Society Rolex Explorer
of the Year. Brian Christie, thanks for being
on the show. Welcome to Nature's Secret Service.
Thanks for having me. You and I have known each
other for a few years, and I have to say I'm
very jealous of your National Geographic Society
Explorer of the Year. I've always wanted to be
an Nat Geo Explorer, but I don't know how to
do it. I mean, really, you don't have to do anything.
You just go out and follow your passion. It's,
I'm very privileged to be in that group because
there's some extraordinary people doing, you
know, cutting edge every aspect of exploration.
They've got somebody doing something extraordinary
and I don't know how I got in there. It's very
cool. I do a lot of exploring, Brian. I'm just
waiting for him to call me. They don't call.
They don't call. When you make your next big
discovery, let me know, and I will pass a message
on. Let's do that. OK. OK, that sounds fair.
That sounds fair. I'll try to keep a notebook
of my various adventures and discoveries, and
you'll be my in. That sounds good. All right.
Hey, I'm so glad you're willing to come on the
podcast because I have read the Lizard King actual
actually multiple times Because you do such a
great job of kind of capturing Not not just kind
of the history of Reptile trafficking in the
u .s. You kind of start at the beginning of the
book telling little bit of the background on
why reptiles are so popular in the US why they're
kind of a consistently popular exotic pet but
you also really dive into kind of the mindset
of the people who get involved in wild animal
legal and illegal trade which I found just so
fascinating as a Investigator who used to chase
these people. It's really interesting to to get
into that. And, you know, the one thing I've
always wanted to ask you is, you know, how did
you even ever become aware of this story that
you tell in The Lizard King? And, you know, can
you just kind of run us through, tell us a little
bit about the history of reptile collecting and
ownership and selling and buying in the States?
Sure. Yeah. I mean, to me, I think just to stick
with your first point, It's really about collecting,
and I'm really attracted to the collecting obsession,
whether it's reptiles or coins. I did a story
on the smuggling of the world's most valuable
coin, and that really primed me for looking into
wildlife trafficking, because it's really a lot
of the same motivations, whether it's coins or
stamps or wine or painting or wildlife. One of
the primary motivations is Knowledge sort of
knowledge once you get to know something about
a species There are for certain people a desire
to possess that Thing and that's the same with
coins or stamps and things and the thing about
reptiles is you can hold them and And they're
cold -blooded so you can store them in very limited
Space and so people are collecting them the way
you collect coins and they're putting them in
shelving units that look like something you might
store maps or manuscripts in and So that was
one of the things that attracted me right off
the bat I had just done a story for Playboy magazine
on coin collecting this coin smuggling case and
It was the rarest coin on Earth, and there was
supposed to only be one of them. Sotheby's sold
it for a record amount. And I found another one
the next day I started looking into it. And so
they said to me, if you could do anything next,
what would you do? And I've always loved reptiles.
I had reptiles as a boy. And I'd heard about
this new then thing called designer breeding.
So I wanted to do a story about designer breeding.
And they said, well, we're not really interested
in that. We want crime stories. And I said, well,
hell, there's crime. It was a young editor. I
said, there's crime in this for sure. And I had
vague memories of names like Tommy Crutchfield
and Hank Molt from when I was buying reptiles
in college. And they said, well, tell us about
the crime stories. And I was driving at the time.
I said, you know, we have a bad connection. And
I hung up the phone and I was in Florida. I drove
to the courthouse in Orlando and started looking
up reptile crime cases. And case after case was
had as a defendant. a reference to a company
called Strictly Reptiles. And case after case
had reference to a fish and wildlife agent named
Charles Bepler. And I drove down Florida from
courthouse to courthouse looking at the original
files, having them pull files. And that became
true as I proceeded down all the way to Miami.
And by the time I got to Miami, I... I decided
that this was something I really wanted to look
into. So that was the start. Very cool, because
the names you mentioned, Crutchfield, Strictly
Reptiles, Hank Molt, those are kind of infamous
names within the US Fish and Wildlife Service
Office of Law Enforcement. Every agent either
does know or should know those names. You you
talk about Charles Bepler He went by chip in
the service had a great reputation as an agent
and I love the way you get into not only you
know his Motives and his drivers but also how
those motives and drivers compared and related
to his main nemesis Which was the people who
ran strictly reptiles who were those guys? Tell
us a little bit about those people Yeah, I mean
the book is I set up basically as a cat -and
-mouse story between Chip Bepler the fish and
wildlife Agent and his nemesis Mike Van Nostrand
who runs strictly reptiles strictly reptiles
is the largest Reptile wholesale company on earth.
They are they are bringing in 50 % of the green
iguanas you see in pet shops around the country
back in the 90s came from that single place.
They're bringing in every reptile that's available
legally, and as it would turn out, some amazing
illegal animals as well. Chip and Mike were really
wonderful to focus on as a cat and mouse because
they were opposites in every way. Chip was a
tall, thin, relatively thin, a 6 '4", thin guy,
very soft spoken, very polite, comes from a family.
All his siblings have master's degrees or PhDs.
His father was a doctor, went to Princeton, served
in Korean War. Everything about him was... upper
crust, and Chip was motivated by loved animals.
He just, he had an affection for animals that
said, I'm not going to follow the path my family's,
you know, this advanced degree, college, his
sister's a PhD in chemistry. I'm not doing that
route. I want to be out with the animals I care
about. So contrast that with Mike Van Nostrand
who weighs 352 pounds. He's loud. He drives a
jacked up F -250 truck that he can't get in.
He can barely get into. It has a horn that he
has doctored. It's a train horn. It's illegal.
And he likes to drive through the prominent neighborhoods
in South Florida. He lives in Davie and blow
the horn. while people are eating out in outdoor
restaurants, just for no reason. I spent years
with Mike. I was shot in the head with paper
clips regularly. He threw a hundred pound python
on me when I wasn't looking. He had me cleaning
the cages of bird -eating tarantulas that are,
as you may know, they have these hairs that they
use as a defense that they sort of brush off,
nictating hairs that get in your eyes and your
skin can put you in the hospital. So those are
two very different characters. Mike's dad was
not only an amazing reptile dealer, but he also
ran drugs. and guns in South Florida at a time
when it was a very violent thing to do. So those
two characters, to bring them together in a story
was just too good to be true for me. Yeah, it
was tailor -made. Definitely tailor -made. Tell
us about, like, give us a sense of the scope
of Mike Van Nostrand and Shrictly Reptile's business.
And not only their legal business, but the illegal
business, too. Why was Chip Bepler interested
in Strictly Reptiles? So Chip started out with
Fish and Wildlife as an inspector and then moved
to Office of Law Enforcement, working out of
JFK. And he, in New York, was making wildlife
cases. case after case, putting them together.
And then his boss, Sam Labrandi said, you know,
Chip, you know, I really appreciate your effort
and your industry and things, but you know, we're
not going to be able to prosecute any of these
people. And Chip was, what do you mean? And well,
you know, we're, our cases go to major crimes
at the prosecutor's office and they're prosecuting
Gotti right now. So you've got this Pine Barrens
tree frog case you want to bring, or this barn
owl case you want to bring. I'm not going to
call them up. And Chip said, well, screw it.
I'm calling them. And he did on a barn owl case.
And as Sam told me the story, Chip held the phone
away from his head. The prosecutor was yelling
at him. so violently that how are you kidding
me that you're bringing that you want to bring
an owl case um when we've got gaudy uh we're
going after it so um but what what chip saw in
um Sam moved into reptiles because reptiles were
a lot of reptiles were coming through JFK And
what chip saw was a lot of these reptiles were
destined for this company in South Florida called
strictly reptiles And that kind of put up being
his bonnet for for you know, what's going on
with strictly and as you know, very well reptiles
You know is a very aboveboard business. It's
very honest Keepers and and pet shops and breeders
and things all around the world but when reptiles
go dishonest they go they go hard and They're
very clever the traders. It's high volume In
some cases, it's very high value in other cases
The great thing about smuggling reptiles is is
they're small you can they're cold -blooded so
they don't they can go for long periods of time
without Water if you cool them down you can stuff
them into things you can stuff them into a You
can stuff poison our frogs into a matchbox and
they do and Chip wanted to go after This wholesaler
in Florida that would appear to be a major driver
for reptiles and from what he was hearing, a
lot of smugglers in Florida for lots of species
were keying off the success of Strictly. Like
if Strictly's getting away with this on reptiles
so I can do it for birds. Strictly's getting
away with it on reptiles so I can do it for primates.
And that was happening down there. So he and
his wife Robin, Robin Bepler, was a wildlife
inspector they moved to south florida in large
part motivated by chip's desire to go after this
guy's strictly reptiles and it turns out um uh
they bought a ranch a rancher uh small house
kind of down the street from strictly reptiles
in hollywood and for chip to get to the office
in miami he had to drive past mike's Warehouse
and Mike's warehouse is a former Frito lay warehouse.
So it's it's got multiple loading docks It's
it's surrounded in barbed wire in chain -link
fence top of barbed wire their cameras It's basically
half a city block devoted to moving legal and
moving reptiles And and some exotic mammals and
stuff. So Chip had to drive past. It was very
much sheepdog and coyote to me. And when I went
down there the first time, so I'm reading all
these case files. And I decide I'm going to go
to Strictly and see what it's like. And Strictly
is on a sterling road in Hollywood. And it's
not quite a highway. But you move it moves very
quickly, and there's no way to slow down to get
a look into the parking lot. And so I had to
keep making these drive -by passes that were
the same passes Chip drove to work, but I had
to keep going back and forth just to kind of
put together a picture of what the parking lot
looked like, let alone what it looked like inside.
would have been a hard place to do surveillance.
That's really where I'm going. I forget what's
across the street, but I wanted to set up. This
was my first or my second big investigation.
It was my first real freewheeling I'm going to
do. My uncle, my godfather was one of the pioneer
FBI undercover. undercovers. And he was mentoring
me at this time, at this point, kind of giving
me advice and things. And I wanted to do that
kind of setup and watch, and there was no time
for that. So I did what he later told me was
the stupidest. He used a lot of profanity. But
my first time confronting the Van Nostrands,
I have a problem I look like a cop to people,
particularly if I'm asking questions as a journalist
and they're criminal. And so I came up with this
plan that I went to Subway, which was just down
the street and bought a sandwich with everything
on it. Just what do you want? I want lettuce,
tomato, mayonnaise. Oil and vinegar everything
and I drove to strictly and I then I drove into
the parking lot and a bunch of the employees
were standing on the loading dock and I got out
of my truck and dumped the sandwich down my shirt
as I was taking a bite of it and they all saw
me do it and they looked at me and they thought
many things I might be many things but none of
them thought I was a cop and I used that. That's
pretty good, Brian. Yeah, so I was very proud
of myself. I was like, you know, I broke it with
humor. Everybody's kind of like, hey, asshole,
what are you, you know, what are you doing here
and stuff? And so I told my uncle this after
the after the fact, and he said, what you did?
What are you the stupid? That's the stupidest
effing thing I've ever heard you. You have a
great story and this was a great lesson for me
You just did a story for playboy playboy told
you they want a story tell these guys You're
there from playboy You you've had reptiles exactly
had reptiles as a boy, you know about them You
care about them. Tell them the truth. I said
the whole truth that I'm there. No, not the whole
truth you idiot This was kind of me getting off
the ground so I did I went in The next day Mike
wasn't there the first day anyway, and I went
there the next day and I said I'm from Playboy
and he and His father Ray who was kind of the
kingpin if you want to it's hard for me to Stand
out so I know the family so well, it's hard for
me to stand outside, but Ray sort of started
everything Ray said you're from Playboy And Ray
has a shaved head and gold chains. And I said,
yep. And he got on the phone and I was concerned
he was calling for backup or he was calling for
somebody to check out my bona fides or something.
And the next thing I know, Ray's girlfriend showed
up and she said, you're from Playboy. And I said,
yes. And she, she unbuttoned her top and said,
do you think I can get in the magazine? That
was my day one on my investigation. Yeah. That's
a perfect juxtaposition to who Chip Bepler was.
That's perfect. You mentioned in that explanation
that Strictly Reptiles was coming up all the
time in Chip's other investigations. And to give
listeners a sense of the scope of these businesses,
your book describes how Strictly Reptiles was
supplying It was the major supplier of many,
many reptiles all across the United States, but
particularly on the East Coast, and was doing
well over a million dollars in business every
year. And the warehouse you described really
triggers memories for me of all of the warehouses
near Los Angeles International Airport that primarily
deal with fish. But they're huge. I mean, these
are many tens of thousands of square feet warehouses
filled with row upon row of interconnected aquariums.
that do nothing but 24 hours a day, 365 days
a year, process live animals for the pet trade.
And those big warehouses for reptile and the
reptile importers and exporters, they're exactly
the same. It's a huge business. And the Van Nostrands
and Strictly were neck deep in it and making
a lot of money. Oh, yeah. I mean, they made I
don't know how many millions they were making
a year at their peak, but getting ahead of the
story, when Mike's first year working with his
dad, after his dad got out of prison, they made
a million dollars. So they were really the gorilla
on the block. LA Reptiles was their major competitor.
And I don't know how the country sort of split
up in terms of what species went where, but the
only competitor they had during these years was
LA reptiles. Yeah, a lot of that depends on shipping
routes and who has the best access to shipping
routes and the cheapest shipping routes. So tell
us about what was the first time CHIP encountered
Mike Van Ostrin. How did that come about, that
Chip started an investigation? What was their
first encounter like? So Chip, there was an agent
in the Miami office named Jennifer English, and
Jennifer was kind of Chip's walk through, walk
Chip through what Miami was going to be like.
Early on, when Chip got to Miami, they got a
call that a guy, an Argentine green card holder
from Argentina had been stopped at Miami International
with a suitcase of what turned out to be turtles
in socks. And he had hundreds of these things
sewed into strips inside a suitcase. And this
was going to be Jennifer Jennifer's idea was
I'm going to introduce Chip to this no brainer
smuggler that's not going to go anywhere. None
of these cases ever go anywhere. And it turned
out that this guy was carrying a black book that
connected him to a major operation in South Florida
called Pet Farm, which was at that point operating
as a flow through shell. for Strictly. So Mike
was, then Ostrand was writing checks to a guy
at Petfarm named Dale Marantz. And Dale Marantz
was writing checks to, or paying this courier
named Thomas Medina. And Bepler flipped Medina
off the bat. So right off the bat you had, he
turned a nothing case into a lead on the biggest
operator in the world, reptiles -wise. And so
a guy that from state game named John West brought
Chip to Strictly and introduced him to Mike and
Chip said hey, we've or I think it was Mike who
said Yeah, I hear I heard One of my customers
Or suppliers you recently arrested and I was
really surprised Mike said because I thought
all his stuff was captive bread and Chip said
now, why would you bring why would you say that
out of the blue? Well, you know And then I can
hear Mike backpedaling with this kind of... Mike,
you cannot stop Stump Mike for an answer. Whether
he's right or wrong in what he says, he will
have an answer immediately. And he says, you
know, I owe him money for this last shipment.
He's probably going to need a lawyer and he probably
wants to get paid. So he reached out to me and
he says, as Bepler's leaving... you know, am
I under investigation? Because I think you have
to tell me if I am. And Bepler said, you're not
under formal investigation. But I can't tell
you I won't be back. And that, I mean, that's
out of a movie right there. And, and of course,
he is back and he's back again and often, as
they say. And yeah, hard, step by step. Yeah.
One of the greatest things I love about that
description in the book of that encounter between
Chip, that first encounter between Chip and Mike,
is that when Chip leaves, Mike kind of thinks
this agent's an idiot. He should have done what's
called a controlled delivery, right? That's right.
And this is what's kind of to back up for some
of my listeners who aren't in law enforcement.
It's pretty it's pretty common that you catch
what we call a mule at the airport or somewhere
else crossing a land border That's just they're
called a mule because they're basically carrying
contraband Wildlife drugs whatever for somebody
higher up in the criminal enterprise And so there's
a couple ways you can deal with it You can bust
that person right there and do what chip did
and interview them and see if they'll become
a cooperator or you can If you do it right, you
can let kind of let them go and they actually
never know that you Know that they're smuggling
wildlife and then you do a surveillance on that
person and see where they go next and Wherever
they deliver the product then you do a search
warrant that's called a controlled delivery But
the funny the thing I love about this is both
techniques are totally legit and you described
how chip successfully Flipped Medina turned him
into a cooperator. But when chip left that meeting
with Van Ostrin Mike Mike's thinking now this
chips an idiot because he didn't do a controlled
delivery on my place, right? Little do you know
the chip had a plan And and and if you're not
law enforcement you might miss This and I'm only
really realizing it as I'm as we're talking about
it By coincidence America's most wanted that
TV show was at the airport They were doing a
project on bird smuggling with Jennifer English.
So Jennifer brought them To the airport to film.
This is why I could tell the story so Accurately
and in such detail There were cameras on Medina
so It now occurs to me that chip might have been
concerned that a controlled delivery wouldn't
have worked if it aired not knowing when it might
air on television, then if you're trying to break
up a control delivery downstream, that could
blow that. He had a couple of things he had to
think about in that first intro. Yeah. It really
speaks to though to chips. personality and character,
because he was known kind of throughout the service
as a person who was able to, I won't say make
friends with the people he was investigating,
that's the wrong word, but he was able to somehow
identify with them and often build some sort
of rapport with them. So he was actually pretty
good at flipping people and turning them into
cooperators because Bad guys always hate the
cops who are chasing them. But at the same time,
a lot of the guys who Chip was chasing couldn't
hate him. They hated him, but they also liked
him. You know what I mean? I heard that from
Mike again and again and from a bunch of people.
And to be honest, I took a lesson from that.
Because particularly when you're in the wildlife
space as a journalist, You're supposed to hate
anybody dealing in wildlife, anybody moving wildlife
or profiting from wildlife. And I've taken a
lot of heat or some heat over the years from
people who think in black and white and want
to treat people in black and white. And if you
do that, you can feel good about yourself at
the end of the day, but you don't move. the ball
forward anywhere near as far as you can. And
that was a lesson I learned from people talking
about Chip. And I integrated into my own approach.
And my uncle, the FBI undercover, was also very
adamant about not being judgmental. And he compares
undercover to a first date. You do what she wants
to do. You like what she wants to like. This
is kind of an exaggerated thing, and he might
use more graphic language. But it's that kind
of dance to an objective that particularly in
the wildlife space, not many people, not enough
people understand. Well, it's an interesting
point because there's another element to it that
I think a lot of law enforcement officers have
this philosophy, and if they don't, they should.
I got really great advice before I became a federal
agent. I was a prosecutor for a while, and I
got really great advice from then Attorney General
of the state of Washington, Christine Gregoire.
She used to tell all of the prosecutors in the
AG's office never to forget that you'd still
work for the people you're prosecuting. Like
as a public servant, you work for the people
you're actually chasing. And so with that comes
certain responsibilities like protecting their
constitutional rights, treating them with dignity.
Yes, they are your Foe in terms of trying to
enforce the law, but they're not your enemy.
They are You are a law enforcer. Yeah, you're
a law enforcer attempting to bring consequences
to people who need it and these people You know,
they're still Individuals who have rights and
need to be treated decently So I had a similar
experience with chip a lot of people that I investigated
for years later arrested Who? Yeah, they didn't
like me But yet they would still wave at me when
they saw me in court. They would wave and smile
because I treated them decently, you know? Yeah.
Interesting phenomenon. Yeah. I mean, at Nat
Geo, I would get people, you know, editors would
say, how could you possibly know? Why did he
tell you this? Talking about other smuggling
stories I worked on. And my answer in general
was because he liked me. you know, because I
listened and spent the time. And they, I mean,
most of the time when I would get an assignment,
they would say, what do you need? And my number
one answer would be time. It's not so much about
money. It's not so much about expenses for that
kind of thing. Just give me time and And that's,
as an undercover and as an investigator, you
know, that's kind of the, to build that sort
of rapport and get past your own, in my case,
you know, some of your own prejudices takes time
too. It's the same. And it's the same whether
it's an undercover or an overt investigation,
because in that overt investigation, if you can't
build rapport with the people you're going out
and interviewing, they're not going to give you
any information. So yeah, it's kind of inherent
in the, you know what, we'll just say inherent
in the investigator world, whether it's an investigative
journalist or an investigator in a law enforcement
setting. There's certain behaviors that garner
better results. And back to how Chip was handling
this, one of the things I find so interesting
among criminals, bad guys, is that here Chip
visits Mike Van Ostrin with a state officer in
uniform. Mike definitely knows now that one of
his couriers has been busted, right? He's got
to know that Chip's, he might think Chip's a
dummy, but he's not a complete dummy. And Chip's
going to continue to investigate. And yet, Mike
and Strictly Reptile continue to engage in illegal
activity. After that first meeting, what were
some of the things Strictly Reptile and Mike
were involved in? What kind of illegal reptile
business were they doing? He he had a don't ask
don't tell philosophy So He had guys I Mean so
to back up, you know Mike Mike inherited this
business from his dad. His dad was a true reptile
world -class expert, but he was also You know
came up at a time when Miami was a drug trafficking
center and gun trafficking center. And the kind
of same rush you get from from dealing in Cobra's
you get. And so he was doing all of that. Mike
wanted to be an accountant and had gone to Broward
Community College to be an accountant. He hated
the drug dealer types that showed up at the family's
house. His dad gets arrested in a major case
called Operation Cobra that involves Mario Tabrowi,
which is a big name in the DEA and fish and wildlife
world, of course. And Ray rolls on Mario and
goes to prison. He's in Witzek out in Arizona.
And Mike quits his dream path to support his
mom and brother and things. So he comes into
the business with very genuine, really admirable
goals that I'm going to shoulder, I'm going to
take responsibility for the family. But he is
just a giant child in a way, just can't avoid
the thrill of getting away with something. So
he's got guys suit casing stuff up from Central
America and the thing that he loves is just them
opening the suitcase like he can't believe Phil
Langston who's supposed to be a CIA connected
guy down has stuffed so many Lizards and snakes
into a single suitcase. He just just that kind
of opening the box, you know, they're people
dig Box opening videos on TikTok and stuff. That's
Mike sitting there. What do you, what do you
got? So he's got those kinds of things. He's
got, um, suppliers. Fermo Hasco is the, is the
largest, you know, if you think about this as
a syndicate, the major operators are Mike in
the United States, uh, Fermo Hasco operating
out of Indonesia, Anson Wong, uh, and Sungai
Rusa Wildlife, who's using a zoo as a cover in
Malaysia. And Anson is considered the Pablo Escobar
of wildlife trafficking. He's moving snow leopard
pelts and panda bear skins and elephants out
of Thailand. He can get you Spix's macaws. But
reptiles are his thing. And Anson is Mike's supplier
for that part. So these guys all know each other
and are operating so Mike is moving product from
those guys Indian star tortoises Plowshare tortoises
are on the are or something that Anson is moving
at the time Fiji Island iguanas all the you know
to non -reptile people they they don't really
mean anything, but these are all the the gold
level species for those who have the addiction.
And that's what's going on in the consumer end
of this is there are people, they're really addicted
to, I've got to have the next shiny thing. And
that's what we're dealing with. And you mentioned
Fiji Island iguanas and I know Anson Wong, I
believe was also involved in Komodo dragons,
I believe. Some of these guys, I think it was
Anson Wong who tried to smuggle some Komodo dragons
that ended up going to the LA Zoo. And then when
they grew up, they later bit the toe of the husband
of Sharon Stone. That's another story. I'll let
listeners read your book to get that story. That's
one of the famous stories that goes around the
LA field office. Because those are the Komodo
dragons that the LA Zoo came from a law enforcement
case where they were seized. And now they're
big gigantic, ferocious dragons. But in naming
some of these species, some of the species you
mentioned are some of the most endangered reptiles
in the world and hard to get. And I think some
listeners will say, well, wait a second. There's
a legal trade for reptiles, right? There's a
big legal trade. We see reptiles at Petco, pet
shops all the time. Why go to all the trouble
of suit casing in exotics? And can you explain
a little bit about that? Like, why aren't all
these things legal? Why are people going to the
trouble of smuggling reptiles when there is a
legal trade in many species? Uh, because not
all species are alike, uh, to, to collectors.
It's a, it'd be, it'd be like saying to a coin
collector, Hey, you've got a whole drawer full
of pocket change. Why do you need a 1933 double
Eagle gold piece? You know? Um, exactly. But,
but these are the guys who have the 1929, the
1930, the 1930 D the 1930 P, you know, That's
this level of high end, when you're talking about
the kind of boutique level species. And then
there are some - And that's where the money is
too. That's right. But there's also the making
a species illegal to trade gives a monopoly.
to the people who are willing to break the law
and trade in that species. So the animal might
not be rare, but because the country prohibits
its exportation, it's hard to get. And only lawbreakers
can get it for you. And that can cut. It's not
always the law that is kind of right. For example,
you can walk into PetSmart. You mentioned PetSmart.
You can walk into PetSmart today and you'll see
a bearded or bearded dragons. Maybe the most
popular among the most popular reptiles and most
appropriate pet reptiles there is. Well, those
are from Australia and it's illegal to get them
out. But some Germans did among others years
ago and they're easy to breed. And as a result,
there are bearded dragons everywhere, and nobody
is going to fly over to Australia and stuff them
in their underwear and carry them out of Australia.
But the original guys, the reason they're out
there is because they were illegal to trade in,
and so guys were willing to take the risk for
the money. to get those original ones out. That's
an interesting point you make, you know, because
I think generally speaking, we don't walk around
thinking about it, but a lot of these species
that are common in the pet trade now and completely
legal were once, if you go far enough down their
lineage, probably the originals were smuggled
out of somewhere illegally. It happens. And that
is a goal of a lot of these smugglers is to get,
they want to get like a Fiji Island iguana, which
is very endangered. They want to get it to the
states and they want to breed it. And once they
can breed it, then they can start to create this
gray area where they're basically hiding an illegal
animal and claiming it was captive raised. And
in many instances, CITES has exceptions for captive
raised animals. And that was one of the next
question I was going to ask you is, did Strictly
and Mike Van Ostrin, did they know the CITES
rules and did they take advantage of loopholes
like that? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, Mike
was these guys. Mike, in particular, was very
adept at he. I mean, really, when I say I'm always
underscoring that Mike's not a reptile guy. He's
really a business guy that reptiles just happen
to be the commodities moving. But for him, it's
all about the paperwork. He is moving. So when
Bepler would come in and say, I'm taking those
tortoises, they're illegal, Mike would physically
say, no, you're not taking them and go ahead
and try. And there was a physical tug of war
at one point. And Mike was resolute in his position
because he knew he had paid off the appropriate
Indian official to doctor the paperwork so that
the paperwork was legitimate. And Mike believed
if the paperwork is legitimate, I win. So people
are always talking about CITES paperwork being
doctored and captive bred, which is a loophole.
If you've bred it in captivity, you can often
trade in species that are otherwise illegal to
move. But Mike really took it to another level
where it was all about... It didn't matter if
he bribed somebody to do that paperwork. If the
paperwork had the right signature and the right
boxes checked, he really did believe he was right,
legally. It's funny because in some ways, he's
not wrong because it takes a very, very good
investigator. to uncover the basis for that fraud.
It's not easy because you often have to get information
from foreign countries. I worked on many cases
like that where people doctored paperwork, and
it becomes a totally different case and requires
a whole different level of professional investigative
skills. So in some ways, Mike wasn't wrong. He
was much more likely to get away with it if the
paperwork just looked right. Yeah. I mean, a
lot of these, UAE was a country that they were
moving some things through. West Africa was a,
I mean, the level of corruption in these countries,
I mean, so institutionalized, you almost can't
call it corruption. I mean, on an ivory story,
I was working with some wildlife officers in
East Africa. they were explaining to me how we
were talking about corruption. And he said, well,
you know, my family has this many people in it
and I'm expected because I have a good government
job, I am expected to deliver a certain amount
of money to my family members and quite distant
from my perspective, family members. And so from
But the perspective of my family, if I'm not
stealing, I'm doing something wrong. And he told
it in third person terms. He said, if they're
not stealing, they're doing something wrong.
But then at the end, he said, even me. And it's
easy to say, oh, you're you shouldn't do that.
But then you ask, what's your monthly salary?
And it is the salary that wildlife officers get
in some of these countries. It's just dollars
a month. It's so bad. And these guys are, you
know, one elephant tusk can carry these guys
for months. That was the same in the Philippines.
I had a guy that was willing to work with me
in the Philippines on a project. But his government
salary didn't allow him ink for his fax machine.
So he wanted to share with me something. So I
sent him cartridges of ink. And that was the
only ink his office had. sort of thing is something
people, it's really hard to, I felt really incredibly
entitled and privileged to be coming over on
my soapbox many times saying, you know, I'm investigating
wildlife crime and seeing the circumstances that
people on both sides of the law were in. It's
very humbling. Yeah, I've had many conversations
myself with foreign law enforcement officers
about corruption and the drivers and sometimes
the answers are very you know sobering and hard
to you know Hard to preach against necessarily
when they tell you our situations How did so
how did ship finally make a case against Mike
Van Ostrin and strictly? Well, it turns out and
this is like, you know This story seemed magical
in very extraordinary ways, both good and tragic
in ways as well. But Chip is kind of, the team
in the Miami office gave him, said, look, you
want to go after strictly. It's full -time. It's
gonna take it's gonna be a full -time operation
We will take over your extra cases and enable
you to go after strictly They gave him a separate
room. He could they called the Batcave and he
was full -time on strictly Unbeknownst to him
there was a team in the Netherlands that had
Seen something called a frilled dragon coming
out of Papua New Guinea, Southeast Asia, and
with captive -born paperwork. They were marking
these lizards at the source with a dye that would
show up under a black light. And they were tracing
these lizards from Indonesia. to Holland and
then Seeing them go to as captive bred to strictly
and They interesting. I don't remember how they
connected These guys were equally they were not
wildlife guys. They were just like the pioneers
in law enforcement on reptiles and many ways
they were made fun of in major crimes, saying,
we're going to go after frilled dragons instead
of mafia guys. They named their team Team Aura,
the Latin for the poison arrow frogs that were
also coming through. And they - Dutch police,
yeah, the Dutch police, right? And they had wiretapping
powers that Chip did not have. And they got a
tap as well on the comms between a guy in Indonesia.
And when they teamed up together, that helped
build the case against Mike. Interesting. OK.
So finally, they somehow connected with Chip,
shared information, and that allowed Chip to
prove. that fraudulent paperwork and that Mike
knew he was importing essentially wild frilled
dragons, yeah? Yeah. Chipp had several cases
in play at the same time. There was a case of
99 star tortoises. He had a number of cases in
play and he was able to, off the top of my head,
I don't remember which case was kind of the nail
in the coffin. for Van Nostrand. But the the
the frill dragon case was the lead. As I recall
that that ended up being prosecutable. And the
fun thing is, Chip eventually teamed up with
a fairly new assistant US attorney in Miami named
Tom Watts Fitzgerald, who went on to become fairly
fairly famous in his own right for leading the
environmental crime section, or starting and
leading the environmental crime section there
in Miami. And he was able to get a successful
prosecution on, I don't think it was Tom Watts
Fitzgerald that prosecuted strictly, but Chip
was able to get a successful prosecution on strictly
in my, oh, it was, okay, cool. What was the result?
By wildlife standards, it was small. I think
you got eight months prison time and $250 ,000
fine, as I recall, and then was kind of knocked
out of international trade for a bit. But it
knocked Mike back on his heels in a way that
altered the direction, I think, of his life.
And I say that with some caveats that we might
want to get to. And it also sent shockwaves through
the reptile world that strictly had fallen. And
when strictly fell, I believe that had a chilling
effect across the reptile world and beyond into
the bird world in South Florida. You know, South
Florida is a melting pot for wildlife crime of
all species. And of course, at the same time,
you have Operation Chameleon going down with
George Morrison and Ken McLeod, Sam Holla. And
that is an operation targeting Anson Wong, who
is Mike's major Asian supplier. So those two
things wrapped at a at around the same time,
the late 90s. And Anson was a much bigger, Anson
gets five years. That was a major case. And Mike
rolls on Anson, which is quite significant. That
helped his sentence, no doubt. Right. And Chip,
because of the report Chip built with Mike that
he could that Mike would think that he could
do that in a responsible way. You mentioned there
are three pretty famous agents, Special Agent
George Morrison, Special Agent Ken McLeod, and
Special Agent Sam Mahola. Those three agents
were part of Special Operations Unit, which was
part of the US Fish and Wildlife Service. they
did take down Anson Wong, which was an amazing
coup. And the timing of it, I think your point
is well taken. The timing of that with Strictly
was kind of a blow to some of these kind of cowboys
who had the Wild West of reptile smuggling for
a while there. Yeah. I mean, just in the same
way Operation Renegade took out the bird world
in the... in the early 90s. Reptiles in the late
90s were the traffic high dollar, high crime,
violence was a part of the trade. Yeah, it was
the major wildlife case for that generation.
You mentioned some caveats. And let's talk about,
I think sometimes when we talk about these penalties,
some of our listeners or my listeners are like,
what? He only got eight months, one of the worst
wildlife traffickers in the country, and they
only got eight months. Tell us about some of
those caveats you mentioned, you hinted at, and
what do you think about sentences like this in
terms of overall deterrence? Yeah, so I do think
it had a major chilling effect. The caveat I
have in mind is Mike said to me, without Chip's
interdiction, he never would have stopped smuggling.
And just like collectors kind of move from the
next most rare, the next rarer thing to be a
dealer and moving in more and more rarer and
rarer, higher and higher dollar, you're getting
into more dangerous territory. So I don't know
where Mike's life would have gone if he had not
been, had the brakes put on at a time when he
had a young family and was forced to kind of
reckon with The fact that he had fallen into
the similar shoes to the shoes he tried to avoid
that were had been his father's The the sentence
itself is yeah, it was It was Low From an outsider's
perspective the challenge one of the challenges
that you guys faced is The law requires knowledge
under the Lacey Act. You've got to prove that
the smuggler knew the animals he was moving were
illegal. And that's different from cocaine. You
don't have to prove the guy with cocaine in his
pocket knew cocaine was illegal, but you do with
wildlife. And so making a case is very, very
difficult. There's another element to it that's
probably worth a whole episode of this podcast
all by itself, which is probably coming, honestly,
down the road. A lot of what we haven't talked
about, but certainly Chip also made charges against
strictly for things like money laundering, smuggling.
Lacey act endangered species act all of those
except endangered species act could be felony
serious felonies But what it comes down to is
when a judge sentences somebody they refer to
what's called the u .s Sentencing guidelines
in the federal court and they are guidelines
They're not mandatory, but most judges follow
the guidelines because they want to be consistent
with other judges around the country when they
sentence And that, in my opinion, Brian, is the
real crux of the problem with low sentences in
federal wildlife cases is that they're guided
by the sentencing guidelines, which have a specific
section for environmental crimes. And interestingly,
I'll bet you didn't even know this, I don't think
the sentencing guidelines have been updated for
almost 40 years. And so they reflect a different.
era and a different time in our thinking about
how serious wildlife trafficking is. And many
of the most serious wildlife trafficking offenses,
when you look at them in the sentencing guidelines,
some of them come out with the same recommended
sentences you would get for vandalizing a outhouse
in a national park. That's fascinating. How's
that for us? Yeah, that's something we're going
to talk about in more detail on this podcast,
because really, What needs to happen is the Judicial
Commission needs to go back and look at the sentencing
guidelines for environmental crimes and change
them. They need to be updated. That's a great
idea. In addition to, you know, there's lots
of things CITES could do, too, to close loopholes
and whatnot. There's no avoiding the sad ending
to this part of this story, and that is that
shortly after this case went down and Chip was
kind of looking for his next case. He was diagnosed
with a brain tumor. And what about two years
later, he passed away. But that's a tragic story.
It was a huge loss for the service to lose Chip.
But I think one of the most poignant parts of
The Lizard King is the chapter where you describe
Chip's funeral. And there was an unexpected guest
at that funeral. Who was that? It's Mike Van
Nostrand. The same Florida game officer, John
West, who I think is now Captain John West, is
at the funeral. And Mike is not asked to... go
to the funeral. But he takes it upon himself
to show up. And this speaks to the rapport that
Chip developed with him. And Mike really respected
Chip. I could hear it. I spent years with Mike.
And you could hear every story he told, no matter
how mad he was or how wrong he thought Papler
was. every time he had respect for him, and he
would sort of footnote that constantly. And so
these are all people who love Chip and are going
to miss him. They are wildlife officers from
across the country, prosecutors that he's interacted
with from New York and Florida, of course, Chip's
family. Um, they all know who Mike Van Oosteren,
if you know Chip, you know who Van Oosteren is
and Mike weighs 400 pounds. So he's, he's not,
you know, he's not a person who can hide. Um,
and you know, he walks in and he, as he called
it for, counted it for me, you know, everyone,
most people are saying, what is he doing here?
Uh, and Mike took a seat next to. John West and
said, you know, do you mind if I sit with you
John? and then as people are standing up to talk
about chip West elbows him and says you got to
stand up stat say something Mike and Wow and
It's when I heard that part of the story I knew
I wanted to write this book because And Mike
does, and he stands up and he says, I'm probably
the most unique person in this room because I
was one of Chip's cases. And it goes on to talk
about what a great father he knew Chip was. They
both were into baseball. Mike's a very serious,
as a result of getting kind of knocked off the
rails of illegal behavior, at least for a while.
He gets very involved in Little League. He's
a great coach. And Chip was also into sports.
And he talked about that and what a positive
influence Chip had on his life. So that was a
very poignant moment through a very tragic event.
Yeah, I have to say, I think You know, it speaks
volumes for Chip's professionalism and character
that he was able to make that impression on somebody
else, and yet still hold them accountable. You
know, it's not as if he let Mike get away with
anything. It's not as if he became his pal and
looked the other way. He held him accountable,
but he still managed to gain that kind of respect,
which I think it's obvious to listeners that
Mike is Strictly reptiles is still in existence.
It's not like the fish and wildlife investigation
put him out of business, but it clearly had an
effect on the person who needed consequences.
I wanted to close the book on positive, a positive
note. Um, but there was something in the back
of my mind that said, you know, um, you don't
want to vouch for Mike in this story because
you don't know what the future is going to hold.
And it turns out, um, That just a few years ago
Mike is prosecuted again by Tom Watts Fitzgerald
The same prosecutor that that got him with chip
for smuggling turtles to Florida turtles to China
and Japan is the allegation and he is convicted
sentence again to several months in prison and
I think the fine was $150 ,000. Uh, but he's
also barred from the business entirely for a
number of years. Um, and so that, um, is the
modern update on, um, on his story. That's interesting
because, you know, uh, my colleague and I, Aaron
Dean, we used to talk a lot about how, you know,
to some extent, we'll see some of these guys
again. And there's not necessarily anything wrong
with that, because we can't control for that.
All we can do is enforce the law as it's written,
and we let the courts and the process take their
course. And some of these people will be back
again, and they will need more consequences.
And if those jail times go longer and the fines
get higher, the more they re -offend. So, Brian,
thank you so much for being on the show. I appreciate
it. Everybody go out and get The Lizard King.
It's a great book, an easy read, fun read, and
you'll learn a lot. Take care. Nature's Secret
Service is written and produced by me, Ed Newcomer,
and is co -produced by the DHTV team here at
California State University Dominguez Hills.
Follow us on social media and connect with us
online at naturessecretservice .com.