WEBVTT

00:00:00.140 --> 00:00:02.540
If you want to learn more about the topics of

00:00:02.540 --> 00:00:06.219
today's episode, visit the podcast website at

00:00:06.219 --> 00:00:09.339
naturessecretservice .com. Thanks for listening.

00:00:34.079 --> 00:00:37.780
Okay, people, listen up. Here we go. This is

00:00:37.780 --> 00:00:39.799
not only Nature's Secret Service, the podcast

00:00:39.799 --> 00:00:41.520
that puts you in the room with the men and women

00:00:41.520 --> 00:00:44.460
of wildlife law enforcement. It's also your favorite

00:00:44.460 --> 00:00:47.700
podcast. I'm Ed Newcomer, your host, and today

00:00:47.700 --> 00:00:50.719
our guest is Walter Duran. Walter's a former

00:00:50.719 --> 00:00:52.799
U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service Special Agent.

00:00:52.899 --> 00:00:55.420
He recently retired, but he has a long history

00:00:55.420 --> 00:00:59.960
in wildlife law enforcement. In his law enforcement

00:00:59.960 --> 00:01:01.780
career, he worked for the National Park Service

00:01:01.780 --> 00:01:04.239
as a park ranger and for the U .S. Park Police

00:01:04.239 --> 00:01:08.840
in Washington, D .C. He was also a refuge officer,

00:01:09.060 --> 00:01:11.000
wildlife refuge officer for the U .S. Fish and

00:01:11.000 --> 00:01:14.739
Wildlife Service, and then later a wildlife officer

00:01:14.739 --> 00:01:18.340
when those titles changed. And one of his jobs

00:01:18.340 --> 00:01:22.340
while he was a federal wildlife officer is one

00:01:22.340 --> 00:01:24.959
of the kind of neatest jobs I think the Fish

00:01:24.959 --> 00:01:27.219
and Wildlife Service has had over the years.

00:01:27.420 --> 00:01:30.439
And that is he was a manatee officer, which means

00:01:30.439 --> 00:01:33.599
that he was in Florida and as a uniformed officer,

00:01:33.799 --> 00:01:36.200
his sole duty was really to protect endangered

00:01:36.200 --> 00:01:42.459
manatees. Manatees take a real beating from people

00:01:42.459 --> 00:01:45.799
who operate boats in Florida waters in manatee

00:01:45.799 --> 00:01:49.180
zones at high speeds and don't follow the rules

00:01:49.180 --> 00:01:51.959
and they hit manatees and often those manatees

00:01:51.959 --> 00:01:55.040
are severely injured and die from their injuries.

00:01:55.359 --> 00:01:58.489
So we do have officers that devote nearly 100

00:01:58.489 --> 00:02:00.969
% of their time to protecting manatees down there

00:02:00.969 --> 00:02:02.790
and enforcing the boating regulations, which

00:02:02.790 --> 00:02:05.790
is, I think, a really important job and a really

00:02:05.790 --> 00:02:09.629
noble job. Walter eventually became a special

00:02:09.629 --> 00:02:11.509
agent with US Fish and Wildlife Service and spent

00:02:11.509 --> 00:02:13.710
his time at the Miami field office and did some

00:02:13.710 --> 00:02:16.150
really incredible work. Super happy to have him

00:02:16.150 --> 00:02:19.389
on the show. Walter, thanks for joining us. Hey,

00:02:19.550 --> 00:02:22.050
I'm happy to be here. Thank you for having me

00:02:22.050 --> 00:02:25.030
over and talk about this important conversation

00:02:25.030 --> 00:02:27.610
we're going to talk about today. Yeah, and we're

00:02:27.610 --> 00:02:31.250
gonna talk about migratory birds which as you

00:02:31.250 --> 00:02:33.569
know Walter anybody who's listening who works

00:02:33.569 --> 00:02:36.189
for US Fish and Wildlife Service or did work

00:02:36.189 --> 00:02:38.430
knows that we spend a lot of time on migratory

00:02:38.430 --> 00:02:41.169
bird issues Migratory Bird Treaty Act of course

00:02:41.169 --> 00:02:43.650
is one of the oldest wildlife laws in the United

00:02:43.650 --> 00:02:46.430
States and all of us regardless of where we are

00:02:46.430 --> 00:02:49.550
in the country Agents spend some time on migratory

00:02:49.550 --> 00:02:54.990
bird issues Walter one of the things you know

00:02:54.969 --> 00:02:57.569
I was an agent for 20 years in LA. I worked on

00:02:57.569 --> 00:03:00.729
a lot of bird cases. We investigated eagle poaching

00:03:00.729 --> 00:03:03.770
cases. I was involved in people who were killing

00:03:03.770 --> 00:03:06.389
hawks and falcons. I was involved in investigations

00:03:06.389 --> 00:03:09.330
about people smuggling live parrots across the

00:03:09.330 --> 00:03:11.550
border, which of course are not migratory birds,

00:03:11.650 --> 00:03:15.030
but endangered species. And I was involved in

00:03:15.030 --> 00:03:17.569
investigations of people smuggling songbirds

00:03:17.569 --> 00:03:20.650
from Southeast Asia into the United States. But

00:03:20.650 --> 00:03:23.930
the one thing I never saw a lot of was people

00:03:26.659 --> 00:03:29.080
trapping migratory birds that are native to the

00:03:29.080 --> 00:03:31.740
United States for commercial purposes. But you

00:03:31.740 --> 00:03:35.900
got into a really interesting investigation in

00:03:35.900 --> 00:03:40.620
Florida, where you discovered a whole industry

00:03:40.620 --> 00:03:44.020
or business or practice of people purposely going

00:03:44.020 --> 00:03:46.860
out trapping migratory birds native to the United

00:03:46.860 --> 00:03:50.219
States, protected by the MBTA, and commercializing

00:03:50.219 --> 00:03:52.259
them. And when I heard about this case, I was

00:03:52.259 --> 00:03:54.780
like, I had no idea this was going on in the

00:03:54.780 --> 00:03:57.740
United States. And I just was fascinated by it.

00:03:57.740 --> 00:04:01.780
And of course, I followed it closely. And I'm

00:04:01.780 --> 00:04:05.120
so happy you're here to talk about it. But first

00:04:05.120 --> 00:04:07.580
of all, can you just give us some background

00:04:07.580 --> 00:04:11.919
about why are people targeting migratory birds

00:04:11.919 --> 00:04:13.979
that are native to the United States for live

00:04:13.979 --> 00:04:16.139
capture to commercialize? Why are they doing

00:04:16.139 --> 00:04:18.079
it? And what are they using these birds for?

00:04:19.720 --> 00:04:25.430
So it's mostly a culture thing. with Hispanic

00:04:25.430 --> 00:04:29.050
people from Cuba, Mexico, and some Central American

00:04:29.050 --> 00:04:34.089
people. But it is to have this birds at home

00:04:34.089 --> 00:04:37.550
because of their colorations, their singing abilities,

00:04:38.389 --> 00:04:42.189
and for competition. But also it's important

00:04:42.189 --> 00:04:45.569
to know that this investigation that we're talking

00:04:45.569 --> 00:04:48.769
about, which is Operation Ordinary Birds, started

00:04:48.769 --> 00:04:56.600
back in 2012. You know, it runs from 2012 to

00:04:56.600 --> 00:05:02.300
2024. Wow. Okay. And there was multiple facets

00:05:02.300 --> 00:05:06.220
of faces of it. So it was a very long investigation

00:05:06.220 --> 00:05:11.579
targeting the trapping of some birds in the United

00:05:11.579 --> 00:05:15.040
States and trafficking of some birds from Cuba

00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:18.160
here. And I'm talking about here in the Miami

00:05:18.160 --> 00:05:26.160
area, but also included Texas, Wisconsin, California,

00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:32.180
Arizona, Nevada, Georgia, and other states in

00:05:32.180 --> 00:05:34.959
the union. It's incredible. I didn't know it

00:05:34.959 --> 00:05:37.860
went on that long. And like I said, I was surprised

00:05:37.860 --> 00:05:41.120
to hear about it. Interestingly, some of those

00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:43.360
cases I told you about where there were people

00:05:43.360 --> 00:05:45.980
smuggling songbirds in from Southeast Asia into

00:05:45.980 --> 00:05:49.339
the U .S. Those were primarily Asians in the

00:05:49.339 --> 00:05:51.740
U .S. who were interested in having those birds

00:05:51.740 --> 00:05:55.600
alive for singing competitions. And I had never

00:05:55.600 --> 00:05:58.540
heard of these singing competitions before in

00:05:58.540 --> 00:06:01.300
my life. And honestly, I still don't totally

00:06:01.300 --> 00:06:06.379
understand how they work. I didn't know that

00:06:06.379 --> 00:06:08.879
U .S. native songbirds were being used for the

00:06:08.879 --> 00:06:10.680
same reason, but it's interesting. You mentioned

00:06:10.680 --> 00:06:13.220
that most of the targets are in this case are

00:06:13.220 --> 00:06:16.199
the people involved were Hispanic, right? Either.

00:06:16.379 --> 00:06:20.560
Right. Latin American, Central American. That's

00:06:20.560 --> 00:06:22.279
a little different than what I experienced with

00:06:22.279 --> 00:06:25.180
the Asian songbirds coming in. But interesting

00:06:25.180 --> 00:06:27.459
that it's also for singing competitions. Can

00:06:27.459 --> 00:06:29.779
you explain how these singing competitions work?

00:06:29.899 --> 00:06:32.839
I don't understand that. And how are they judged?

00:06:33.279 --> 00:06:36.519
And is there money involved? Oh, yeah. I mean,

00:06:36.699 --> 00:06:40.819
this is most crimes. Well, I shouldn't say most

00:06:40.819 --> 00:06:43.620
crimes. All crimes involve money. That's the

00:06:43.620 --> 00:06:46.220
driving force. behind it, you know, you did this

00:06:46.220 --> 00:06:49.420
for 20 years, I did it for 26 years, right? Yeah.

00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:55.800
And what drives people to do this is money. Punishment

00:06:55.800 --> 00:06:59.959
versus reward. Right. And so, you know, these

00:06:59.959 --> 00:07:03.399
people will get together, you know, 10, 20, 30,

00:07:03.439 --> 00:07:08.660
40, 50 people, they'll put all birds in their

00:07:08.660 --> 00:07:11.839
cages. And I'm talking about birds singing competitions

00:07:11.839 --> 00:07:14.629
in a cage in a circle. and they'll make this

00:07:14.629 --> 00:07:20.189
bird sing until two end up just two singing.

00:07:20.290 --> 00:07:22.269
The other ones will not sing because they got

00:07:22.269 --> 00:07:24.750
tired because just, I don't know why they stopped

00:07:24.750 --> 00:07:28.449
singing. And all these people are betting, you

00:07:28.449 --> 00:07:31.550
know, let's say an example of $250 per person,

00:07:31.649 --> 00:07:34.370
you have 50 people, you have thousands of dollars

00:07:34.370 --> 00:07:37.870
in that one singing competition, right? You have

00:07:37.870 --> 00:07:42.199
a judge or two that says, hey, This bird is out

00:07:42.199 --> 00:07:44.560
because it's not singing loud enough or because

00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:48.279
it's not singing enough. Only these two are left

00:07:48.279 --> 00:07:52.360
and these two will go to the championship. Think

00:07:52.360 --> 00:07:55.740
about the NFL or the Major League Baseball, right?

00:07:56.540 --> 00:08:00.139
The World Series. And then they keep singing

00:08:00.139 --> 00:08:03.579
until one either doesn't sing anymore or doesn't

00:08:03.579 --> 00:08:10.019
sing enough melodies or this bird sings the loudest.

00:08:13.310 --> 00:08:16.529
The other thing they do is they can have them

00:08:16.529 --> 00:08:19.149
at home so these birds can sing because of their

00:08:19.149 --> 00:08:22.449
coloration. A perfect example of those birds

00:08:22.449 --> 00:08:26.750
would be the painted bunting, the indigo bunting,

00:08:27.250 --> 00:08:30.829
the blue grosbeak and the rose breasted grosbeak.

00:08:31.949 --> 00:08:36.870
Here in South Florida. There's other species

00:08:36.870 --> 00:08:40.879
that are targeted. depending on the region of

00:08:40.879 --> 00:08:44.419
the United States, like on the West Coast, they

00:08:44.419 --> 00:08:49.000
target the house finches, the American gold finches,

00:08:49.340 --> 00:08:52.120
lazuli buntings, which is specific to the West

00:08:52.120 --> 00:08:59.340
Coast. The lesser gold finches also are targeted.

00:09:00.700 --> 00:09:02.559
And remember, all of these are federally protected

00:09:02.559 --> 00:09:04.519
because they are considered migratory birders.

00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:07.559
Right. Right. They're all on the MBTA list. Yeah.

00:09:07.779 --> 00:09:10.460
Correct. And then, you know, the simple possession,

00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:14.940
talking about reward versus punishment, simple

00:09:14.940 --> 00:09:18.480
possession is just a misdemeanor. Right. Where

00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:22.820
it gets into higher penalties, which would be

00:09:22.820 --> 00:09:24.759
a felony, is for the sale or barter or trade.

00:09:25.259 --> 00:09:28.179
Right. That means you sold it or you exchange

00:09:28.179 --> 00:09:32.399
it for something to barter or trade, right? Right.

00:09:33.259 --> 00:09:38.330
It's a felony. Right. Yeah, that's a good point

00:09:38.330 --> 00:09:41.129
because most of the time when we deal with MBTA

00:09:41.129 --> 00:09:43.590
issues, Migratory Bird Treaty Act, yeah, the

00:09:43.590 --> 00:09:46.830
basic fine or penalty for catching one is a class

00:09:46.830 --> 00:09:49.330
B misdemeanor. I think it's maximum six months

00:09:49.330 --> 00:09:53.570
in jail and what, a $15 ,000 fine, I think. But

00:09:53.570 --> 00:09:55.889
yeah, if you get into offering them for sale

00:09:55.889 --> 00:09:58.789
or selling them, it's a class D felony. So you

00:09:58.789 --> 00:10:01.629
go to jail for, I think, maximum two years. So

00:10:01.629 --> 00:10:05.450
pretty serious offense. really interesting that

00:10:05.450 --> 00:10:07.669
they're targeting these species. How do they

00:10:07.669 --> 00:10:11.370
catch them? What are they using to catch these

00:10:11.370 --> 00:10:14.929
birds? They use several methods, you know, in

00:10:14.929 --> 00:10:17.990
trapping these birds and also depends on who's

00:10:17.990 --> 00:10:21.730
doing the trapping or catching, what region of

00:10:21.730 --> 00:10:24.330
the country is doing it. But, you know, they

00:10:24.330 --> 00:10:30.769
use mess nets, glue sticks, traps. Sometimes

00:10:30.769 --> 00:10:35.470
they even will have a bait bird Right? That they

00:10:35.470 --> 00:10:37.350
will have at the house singing, they'll open

00:10:37.350 --> 00:10:41.129
their patio door and the bird will come in and

00:10:41.129 --> 00:10:44.450
they'll trap it too. It's very rare because remember

00:10:44.450 --> 00:10:47.629
the bird is looking for that mate, right? Right.

00:10:47.929 --> 00:10:50.490
That is singing or is looking for another friend

00:10:50.490 --> 00:10:52.710
that is singing somewhere and is trying to figure

00:10:52.710 --> 00:10:55.909
out, looking for food and stuff like that. So

00:10:55.909 --> 00:10:58.830
it's very rare, but it does happen. Interesting.

00:10:59.029 --> 00:11:01.309
And just so my listeners understand if they're

00:11:01.309 --> 00:11:03.490
not familiar with some of these trapping devices,

00:11:03.950 --> 00:11:08.389
even though it's illegal to catch or trap migratory

00:11:08.389 --> 00:11:10.889
birds, there are lots, there are birds that are

00:11:10.889 --> 00:11:13.049
legal to trap, you know, like pigeons and things

00:11:13.049 --> 00:11:16.149
like that. And then of course there are commercial

00:11:16.149 --> 00:11:18.549
traps available because there are scientists

00:11:18.549 --> 00:11:22.190
and people who are authorized to catch migratory

00:11:22.190 --> 00:11:25.110
birds alive for study purposes. So like miss

00:11:25.110 --> 00:11:29.269
nets is as common. tool used by researchers.

00:11:29.909 --> 00:11:32.429
And it's basically a very thin, finely woven

00:11:32.429 --> 00:11:34.529
net, kind of like a fishing net, but it's hung

00:11:34.529 --> 00:11:38.169
up between trees, birds can't see it. And it's

00:11:38.169 --> 00:11:40.409
hung in areas, birds are likely to fly and birds

00:11:40.409 --> 00:11:42.389
will fly into it and get tangled up. And then

00:11:42.389 --> 00:11:45.370
they can usually doesn't hurt them. They almost

00:11:45.370 --> 00:11:47.149
always doesn't hurt them and they can be removed

00:11:47.149 --> 00:11:50.049
and studied and then released or if they're used

00:11:50.049 --> 00:11:52.129
for illegal purposes, obviously keep the bird.

00:11:52.750 --> 00:11:55.700
There's also like stationary boxes that are traps

00:11:55.700 --> 00:11:58.580
where a bird might go for food and drop through

00:11:58.580 --> 00:12:01.379
a trap door and get caught. You mentioned glue

00:12:01.379 --> 00:12:04.659
sticks. That one's surprising to me because the

00:12:04.659 --> 00:12:08.100
way glue sticks work, they can be used for rodents

00:12:08.100 --> 00:12:12.080
or birds. But basically it's a piece of flat

00:12:12.080 --> 00:12:14.440
cardboard with some very, very strong adhesive

00:12:14.440 --> 00:12:17.879
glue on it. Can be mounted horizontally or vertically.

00:12:18.819 --> 00:12:21.480
Um, but once an animal touches it, they're stuck.

00:12:21.580 --> 00:12:23.399
And then the more they struggle, the more stuck

00:12:23.399 --> 00:12:28.100
they are. And man, I've seen birds stuck on glue

00:12:28.100 --> 00:12:33.200
traps and it's, it's usually really harms the

00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:34.980
bird trying to get them off. I'm surprised they

00:12:34.980 --> 00:12:38.679
use glue traps. Um, cause I would think they

00:12:38.679 --> 00:12:40.480
would hurt the bird or at least tear the feathers

00:12:40.480 --> 00:12:45.019
off when they take it off. Right. Yeah. It costs

00:12:45.019 --> 00:12:49.450
a lot of damages on the feather. It causes a

00:12:49.450 --> 00:12:51.669
lot of damage to the birds, stresses the bird,

00:12:52.529 --> 00:12:57.509
but also leaves it open to predators. Lack of

00:12:57.509 --> 00:13:00.710
food, lack of water, depending if the trapper

00:13:00.710 --> 00:13:04.450
doesn't come, he might place the glue stick in

00:13:04.450 --> 00:13:06.870
the morning, he doesn't come until six in the

00:13:06.870 --> 00:13:09.950
evening to pick it up. Because the birds will

00:13:09.950 --> 00:13:14.009
start flying around that time. So they will come

00:13:14.009 --> 00:13:16.440
over and see if they got... a bird in the glue

00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:20.519
stick or the trap or the mess net. Yeah. But

00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:23.720
from what I've seen, glue sticks are the most

00:13:23.720 --> 00:13:25.940
devastating ones because they take the feathers

00:13:25.940 --> 00:13:28.279
off when you're trying to remove the bird from

00:13:28.279 --> 00:13:31.879
the glue stick. It's just not good for the bird

00:13:31.879 --> 00:13:36.240
per se. I would say it's cruelty. Yeah. Yeah.

00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:38.139
Plus, like you mentioned, if you're not monitoring

00:13:38.139 --> 00:13:40.179
your traps pretty regularly, your birds are going

00:13:40.179 --> 00:13:43.059
to be just they're just vulnerable to predatory

00:13:43.059 --> 00:13:47.080
attack or they might die from dehydration or

00:13:47.080 --> 00:13:52.240
stress or overheating, whatever. Yeah. The other

00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:54.480
thing is like you have the straps with the false

00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:56.600
doors that they, you know, they land there and

00:13:56.600 --> 00:13:58.980
they drop into this compartment and door closes.

00:13:59.399 --> 00:14:04.759
Right. Oftentimes we'll find snakes that they

00:14:04.759 --> 00:14:07.700
were eating this bird. So you find a snake there

00:14:07.700 --> 00:14:10.759
and snake has a little bird in their belly, you

00:14:10.759 --> 00:14:14.360
know, that ate the birds. I didn't even think

00:14:14.360 --> 00:14:16.320
about that. It'd be easy for a snake to get through

00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:21.679
that trap door. That happens more often than

00:14:21.679 --> 00:14:24.399
you would think. Especially in Florida, right?

00:14:24.519 --> 00:14:26.519
Yeah. Where there's a lot of reptiles. Yeah,

00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:30.899
interesting. We're talking about migratory birds,

00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:34.139
and migratory bird populations have been generally

00:14:34.139 --> 00:14:37.919
declining over the last 50 years for a lot of

00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:40.000
reasons, but certainly this kind of pressure

00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:45.370
can't help. Why is this such a conservation concern

00:14:45.370 --> 00:14:47.750
for particularly migratory birds, this activity?

00:14:48.009 --> 00:14:50.350
Can you explain that a little? Well, because

00:14:50.350 --> 00:14:54.909
it targets a specific species, right? Yeah. You

00:14:54.909 --> 00:14:59.990
know, like the rose -breasted grosbeak. And in

00:14:59.990 --> 00:15:02.289
the Cuban culture, the color de Escollado, right?

00:15:02.289 --> 00:15:05.049
Because it has this little like blood right here

00:15:05.049 --> 00:15:08.110
or rose color. And so the color de Escollado.

00:15:09.759 --> 00:15:13.240
The population on this keeps declining by year.

00:15:13.720 --> 00:15:16.919
Studies done by the Audubon Society, it's just

00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:19.700
not good for those birds because they target

00:15:19.700 --> 00:15:25.279
the males. In order for this population to flourish,

00:15:26.019 --> 00:15:31.379
one, we're cutting their habitat. Two, all the

00:15:31.379 --> 00:15:34.419
buildings that are going up, so they crash against

00:15:34.419 --> 00:15:38.639
this. those but also all the high big numbers

00:15:38.639 --> 00:15:41.600
sometimes you have people that have 250 of those

00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:45.980
birds now and you think about and some of them

00:15:45.980 --> 00:15:49.440
thousands of birds so you you go out and and

00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:53.279
you have several hundred people catching every

00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:55.419
migratory bird season you know when they come

00:15:55.419 --> 00:15:57.340
from the north heading south and when they're

00:15:57.340 --> 00:16:00.299
heading north i mean uh heading from the south

00:16:00.299 --> 00:16:05.309
to the north so you have them being caught on

00:16:05.309 --> 00:16:08.889
both ends when they're coming down and when they're

00:16:08.889 --> 00:16:12.210
going up. So this bird is going to create a big

00:16:12.210 --> 00:16:15.649
issue when it comes to the balance of the ecosystem.

00:16:16.190 --> 00:16:19.570
This bird is there for a reason. Don't ask me

00:16:19.570 --> 00:16:21.850
why, but that they're there for a reason, right?

00:16:24.970 --> 00:16:28.490
And I think it's a responsibility and for us

00:16:28.490 --> 00:16:31.029
to protect them. So that's why I love the job

00:16:31.029 --> 00:16:32.509
and the mission of the U .S. Fish and Wildlife

00:16:32.509 --> 00:16:34.529
Service and, you know, working on the coverage,

00:16:34.809 --> 00:16:38.590
catching these people and talking about reward

00:16:38.590 --> 00:16:42.230
versus punishment, you know, maximum five years,

00:16:42.429 --> 00:16:48.370
100 ,000. Fine. So they figure the reward and

00:16:48.370 --> 00:16:50.649
balance and, you know, how many agents does the

00:16:50.649 --> 00:16:53.870
Fish and Wildlife Service have? Yeah, shockingly.

00:16:54.279 --> 00:16:56.559
Few compared to other federal agencies, that's

00:16:56.559 --> 00:16:58.960
for sure. And compared to our broad mission,

00:16:59.379 --> 00:17:03.379
yeah. And compared to how serious wildlife trafficking

00:17:03.379 --> 00:17:05.519
is around the world, yeah, we have very few.

00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:10.039
Indeed. But they also, the good thing is that,

00:17:10.039 --> 00:17:13.420
you know, you doing your many years in the service

00:17:13.420 --> 00:17:16.740
of this country in protecting the wildlife and

00:17:16.740 --> 00:17:19.720
the environment of the country, not only here

00:17:19.720 --> 00:17:23.640
in the United States, but abroad. We garnered

00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:27.779
some good partnerships with the state, our state

00:17:27.779 --> 00:17:31.539
officers, county and city, but also our other

00:17:31.539 --> 00:17:35.039
federal partners that help us out. Yeah, exactly.

00:17:36.099 --> 00:17:39.279
You know, be able to accomplish our maximum number

00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:41.160
allow of agents for Fish and Wildlife Service

00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:47.779
250. Right. If you got to look at it, you got

00:17:47.779 --> 00:17:54.619
to find ways and. ways to be able to garner support

00:17:54.619 --> 00:17:58.059
from everybody around me. Yeah. I think during

00:17:58.059 --> 00:18:01.579
my career, I remember maybe only a year or two

00:18:01.579 --> 00:18:04.079
out of my whole career where we were fully staffed.

00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:06.200
I mean, usually we're understaffed. And right

00:18:06.200 --> 00:18:09.720
now, I think we're grossly understaffed. You

00:18:09.720 --> 00:18:12.079
know, back to the migratory nature of these birds

00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:14.579
and the impact. And you said they're targeting

00:18:14.579 --> 00:18:17.119
primarily males for their singing ability. And

00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:20.049
we'll talk about that in just a second. You know

00:18:20.049 --> 00:18:23.369
just for listeners kind of sense of orientation

00:18:23.369 --> 00:18:26.589
you know these birds can travel thousands of

00:18:26.589 --> 00:18:29.670
miles over a year moving great distances not

00:18:29.670 --> 00:18:32.549
just across states but across. International

00:18:32.549 --> 00:18:36.470
borders some of them go far south america during

00:18:36.470 --> 00:18:38.170
the winter and then for the summer they come

00:18:38.170 --> 00:18:42.430
up as far as arctic in canada and so. You know,

00:18:42.490 --> 00:18:44.930
taking having any point along that migratory

00:18:44.930 --> 00:18:46.930
route where you're taking significant numbers

00:18:46.930 --> 00:18:50.069
of birds out can have dramatic impact on their

00:18:50.069 --> 00:18:54.150
ability to breed, feed, you know, do whatever

00:18:54.150 --> 00:18:56.470
they need to do once they get to their final

00:18:56.470 --> 00:18:58.750
destinations. You know, if you're taking out

00:18:58.750 --> 00:19:01.049
a lot of males in Florida and all of a sudden

00:19:01.049 --> 00:19:03.630
those males don't show up at the nesting sites

00:19:03.630 --> 00:19:06.930
in the north could devastate the population and

00:19:06.930 --> 00:19:10.250
ruin their nesting season for that year. Visually.

00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:13.420
Uh, for my listeners, if you just Google, uh,

00:19:13.519 --> 00:19:16.799
migratory bird flyways, uh, you will see the

00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:19.140
United States is kind of divided into a number

00:19:19.140 --> 00:19:21.200
of different flyways. You have like the Pacific

00:19:21.200 --> 00:19:24.200
flyway, the central flyway, and these are like

00:19:24.200 --> 00:19:26.900
general migratory routes through North America.

00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:29.000
It's kind of interesting to see just kind of

00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:31.359
give you a picture for how these birds travel

00:19:31.359 --> 00:19:33.960
and how poachers might specifically, you know,

00:19:34.059 --> 00:19:36.400
know about those flyways and target birds during

00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:39.539
the right time of the year. With regard to the

00:19:39.539 --> 00:19:41.819
singing, this competition stuff's really interesting

00:19:41.819 --> 00:19:43.920
to me, Walter, because it's really capitalizing

00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:46.859
on natural behavior, right? In the wild, these

00:19:46.859 --> 00:19:50.599
males would sing to each other and in the presence

00:19:50.599 --> 00:19:53.240
of females, and presumably the strongest singer

00:19:53.240 --> 00:19:56.119
would be the most likely to mate with females,

00:19:56.319 --> 00:20:00.200
right? Indeed. That's correct. And the one that

00:20:00.200 --> 00:20:04.559
has the most color. Coloration, yes. And so these

00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:07.480
guys are specifically targeting, I mean, I assume

00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:09.480
the strongest singers would be most valuable

00:20:09.480 --> 00:20:12.319
to them in these competitions. So they're taking

00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:13.880
out the strongest birds. That's what they're

00:20:13.880 --> 00:20:17.259
looking for anyway, right? Yeah. And, you know,

00:20:17.380 --> 00:20:19.519
depending on how strong of a singer that bird

00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:22.640
is, the value of that bird, going to hundreds

00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:26.720
of dollars, thousands of dollars. I'll be buying

00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:30.220
birds for a hundred and undercover capacity for

00:20:30.430 --> 00:20:35.509
you know, anywhere from $50 to $1 ,000. Crazy.

00:20:36.869 --> 00:20:39.390
Yeah, so they have double value. They have value

00:20:39.390 --> 00:20:42.950
in that they get sold to people who want to compete

00:20:42.950 --> 00:20:45.990
with them. But then they also have value in the

00:20:45.990 --> 00:20:47.730
betting process, right? There's multiple ways

00:20:47.730 --> 00:20:51.410
people make money on them. Correct. Just think

00:20:51.410 --> 00:20:55.150
about it. You have the most colorful, gross breasted,

00:20:55.190 --> 00:21:00.299
gross big, right? And you have the strongest

00:21:00.299 --> 00:21:04.839
singing bird in Miami per se. That bird is going

00:21:04.839 --> 00:21:08.920
to cost thousands of dollars when you sell it.

00:21:09.900 --> 00:21:13.240
And just think about you have a few of those,

00:21:13.720 --> 00:21:15.279
you know, let's say you have 15 of those that

00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:18.519
are very strong because you train them. You got

00:21:18.519 --> 00:21:22.319
them accustomed to the cage, you know, for the

00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:25.680
singing competitions that you face them off and

00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:30.299
they won't Stop seeing Then that that bird has

00:21:30.299 --> 00:21:33.000
double the body. Like you said, right the color

00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:39.200
the singing abilities and The ability for that

00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:43.480
bird to sing in a competition That's amazing

00:21:43.480 --> 00:21:45.000
that's amazing and you said they don't it's not

00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:46.660
like they're just targeting one or two birds

00:21:46.660 --> 00:21:48.799
some of these guys will go out and catch don't

00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:52.930
they'll have hundreds right or more than They

00:21:52.930 --> 00:21:55.490
will have cages, like large cages, like you see

00:21:55.490 --> 00:21:58.289
this door right here. Uh huh. You know, like

00:21:58.289 --> 00:22:02.930
a full size room full of birds. Wow. You can

00:22:02.930 --> 00:22:05.769
walk into this aviary and it'll be full of birds.

00:22:06.390 --> 00:22:10.170
Not everybody has that, but most of them have

00:22:10.170 --> 00:22:14.990
anywhere between 25 birds to 40 birds. Yeah.

00:22:15.349 --> 00:22:18.750
So you talk, these groups here. can have a significant

00:22:18.750 --> 00:22:22.190
impact on populations and breeding success rates

00:22:22.190 --> 00:22:24.329
by taking these birds out during the migratory

00:22:24.329 --> 00:22:27.210
season, right? Oh, yeah. And just think about

00:22:27.210 --> 00:22:28.609
it. You know, they're coming down from North,

00:22:28.630 --> 00:22:32.329
from Canada or, you know, Northeast, and these

00:22:32.329 --> 00:22:34.950
birds are flying. They're not being only targeting

00:22:34.950 --> 00:22:39.490
in the Carolinas, Georgia, North Florida, Central

00:22:39.490 --> 00:22:43.069
Florida, but South Florida on the way down. And

00:22:43.069 --> 00:22:46.819
the same thing as they're going up north. when

00:22:46.819 --> 00:22:51.220
summer is in the North. Because they will come

00:22:51.220 --> 00:22:54.980
down for the cold months, because they will freeze

00:22:54.980 --> 00:22:57.880
in the North. So they'll come down South, they'll

00:22:57.880 --> 00:23:00.960
fly to South America, Central America, but a

00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:04.920
lot of Cuba, the Caribbean. And then they'll

00:23:04.920 --> 00:23:08.680
come back, the juveniles will come back, they're

00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:13.160
just beginning to get their color. And then they're

00:23:13.160 --> 00:23:16.460
being trapped here. in South Florida, Central

00:23:16.460 --> 00:23:19.359
Florida, North Florida, and so up north, you

00:23:19.359 --> 00:23:21.799
know, heading. Yeah, all the way up the flyway.

00:23:22.420 --> 00:23:26.160
That's a very important point because Agent Dirk

00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:28.079
Hoy and I experienced the same thing when we

00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:30.759
did Operation High Roller, which was people killing

00:23:30.759 --> 00:23:33.700
hawks and falcons to protect their pigeons. And

00:23:33.700 --> 00:23:36.000
that was the problem is as hawks and falcons

00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:39.019
made their way up the Pacific flyway in every

00:23:39.019 --> 00:23:42.059
city, there were these pigeon people who killed

00:23:42.059 --> 00:23:45.869
them. So it's not like they just In your case,

00:23:45.869 --> 00:23:47.710
it's not like they just get trapped in Florida.

00:23:47.710 --> 00:23:50.329
They get trapped in the next state and the next

00:23:50.329 --> 00:23:52.450
state and the next state all the way up the flyway.

00:23:52.470 --> 00:23:54.990
So the whole time they're trying to migrate,

00:23:55.130 --> 00:23:58.250
their populations are being cut down by various

00:23:58.250 --> 00:24:04.009
causes. But one of them, these people that are

00:24:04.009 --> 00:24:07.450
trapping and illegally poaching these birds,

00:24:07.450 --> 00:24:11.470
which is really insidious. So let's talk about

00:24:11.470 --> 00:24:14.880
your case now a little bit. You and I both said

00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:17.500
we had no idea this was really going on, right?

00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:19.420
We didn't know about these singing competitions

00:24:19.420 --> 00:24:23.700
How did you figure it out? How did it come to

00:24:23.700 --> 00:24:25.559
your attention? And how did you get involved

00:24:25.559 --> 00:24:28.420
in like an actual investigation of these guys?

00:24:28.759 --> 00:24:33.019
Give us the background there so You know operation

00:24:33.019 --> 00:24:37.980
ordinary birds started in 2012. Okay, my predecessors

00:24:37.980 --> 00:24:44.640
of mine like Dave Dave Ferrell. Dave Hubbard

00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:55.539
in Miami. Dave Ferrell. Fernando Gatorno. Elvin

00:24:55.539 --> 00:24:59.740
Monge. They had this investigation. As people

00:24:59.740 --> 00:25:02.579
move on, it was passed down to these people that

00:25:02.579 --> 00:25:05.380
I just mentioned, right? Right, right. They had

00:25:05.380 --> 00:25:07.519
investigations going on with the state of Florida.

00:25:08.420 --> 00:25:13.579
I came in. I'm a Hispanic born in Latin America.

00:25:14.660 --> 00:25:19.559
And my first language is Spanish, right? So I

00:25:19.559 --> 00:25:21.980
was like a fit in because I spoke the language.

00:25:22.259 --> 00:25:24.200
I understood the culture. I understood everything,

00:25:24.200 --> 00:25:26.940
right? So they they asked me to work on the cover

00:25:26.940 --> 00:25:30.759
doing on the cover buys or buy bus, right? Oh

00:25:30.759 --> 00:25:34.039
yeah, perfect. You see my little parrot thing

00:25:34.039 --> 00:25:37.900
there. Stay with the theme very good. He's wearing

00:25:37.900 --> 00:25:39.910
it. wearing a shirt that has a parrot on it.

00:25:40.069 --> 00:25:44.470
That's nice. Indeed. Well, my car. So it's a

00:25:44.470 --> 00:25:47.390
car. Oh, yeah, it is a Macaw. You're right. So,

00:25:47.390 --> 00:25:51.309
uh, you know, you I got involved in this and

00:25:51.309 --> 00:25:54.210
I started working and I liked it because I was

00:25:54.210 --> 00:25:57.130
making an impact on this investigation. Right.

00:25:57.529 --> 00:26:00.390
An impact on preserving, protecting this migratory

00:26:00.390 --> 00:26:04.069
birds. So, you know, you and I were the boys

00:26:04.069 --> 00:26:06.289
of wildlife because they had no boys. Right.

00:26:06.329 --> 00:26:10.990
Right. So I think I told you this earlier, how

00:26:10.990 --> 00:26:14.509
many Americans know about this wildlife trafficking

00:26:14.509 --> 00:26:18.450
going on? You know, not only migratory birds,

00:26:18.589 --> 00:26:21.730
but other species, sea turtles, you know, hawksbill

00:26:21.730 --> 00:26:25.829
sea turtles, eggs being, you know, dug out at

00:26:25.829 --> 00:26:31.509
the beach or, you know, to toava in, you know,

00:26:31.630 --> 00:26:36.470
that is being pushed to the extinct. Oh, yeah.

00:26:36.950 --> 00:26:40.849
On and on, corals, sea cucumbers. We name it.

00:26:41.029 --> 00:26:44.970
But how many Americans, how many are country

00:26:44.970 --> 00:26:47.509
men and women know about this? I didn't know.

00:26:47.589 --> 00:26:50.490
You didn't know until we got into this. So I

00:26:50.490 --> 00:26:52.829
think this program that you're doing is awesome

00:26:52.829 --> 00:26:57.170
because it could have an impact and educate the

00:26:57.170 --> 00:27:00.890
American public because, you know, we need to

00:27:00.890 --> 00:27:04.650
do that. Right. So, you know, I got into this

00:27:04.970 --> 00:27:08.410
start working it, you know, like I said, Spanish

00:27:08.410 --> 00:27:12.130
is my first language and I understood a lot of

00:27:12.130 --> 00:27:15.829
what was going on. So, you know, it'd be hard

00:27:15.829 --> 00:27:18.950
for me to go try to infiltrate a trafficking

00:27:18.950 --> 00:27:23.130
network that speak Mandarin. It'd be hard, right?

00:27:23.710 --> 00:27:28.289
But I'm still in with the Spanish. People speak

00:27:28.289 --> 00:27:31.109
Spanish. So I got in and started doing undercover

00:27:31.109 --> 00:27:35.700
buys. with the assistance of all the team here

00:27:35.700 --> 00:27:39.420
in Miami. But not only in Miami, but also in

00:27:39.420 --> 00:27:49.599
Texas, Nevada, California, Wisconsin, and abroad.

00:27:50.640 --> 00:27:55.799
I even had the help of Customs and Border Protection,

00:27:56.700 --> 00:27:59.480
the state of Florida, Florida Fish and Wildlife

00:27:59.480 --> 00:28:04.019
Conservation Commission. uh, postal inspectors,

00:28:04.220 --> 00:28:06.759
Homeland security investigations. Right. I'd

00:28:06.759 --> 00:28:10.700
see you. Right. Yeah. Um, it was, it's a great

00:28:10.700 --> 00:28:13.220
team effort to be able to accomplish the mission.

00:28:13.400 --> 00:28:16.880
As I mentioned earlier, it's only 250 agents

00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:22.720
maximum. Right. My entire career, maybe we had

00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:26.339
200 agents and then to be able to have that shades

00:28:26.339 --> 00:28:30.460
across the world and plus people here. And that

00:28:30.460 --> 00:28:33.740
includes management, not just level agents, right?

00:28:34.059 --> 00:28:37.180
So it was awesome to be able to target this,

00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:40.119
to get undercover, work undercover, direct and

00:28:40.119 --> 00:28:43.400
manage undercover operations to do this. John

00:28:43.400 --> 00:28:46.880
O 'Ryder was a great partner to work with and

00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:51.900
was the lead agent for Operation Honorbirds,

00:28:52.099 --> 00:29:00.880
the lighter years of 2021 to 2024. uh, where

00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:07.400
we got to like 30 people. Wow. You know, uh,

00:29:07.400 --> 00:29:10.279
that we charge and arrested and approximately,

00:29:10.720 --> 00:29:14.400
right? Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, Alex Kulin, Alexander

00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:17.119
Kulin, he's awesome. He, you know, he used to

00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:19.519
work for CBP. Now he's a special agent with us.

00:29:19.539 --> 00:29:21.440
He used to work for custom border protection.

00:29:22.279 --> 00:29:26.599
He, you know, helped me find people that are

00:29:26.599 --> 00:29:31.099
advertising online. They post this. I know you

00:29:31.099 --> 00:29:33.400
didn't ask me, but I want to let you know. I

00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:35.079
was just going to ask you, how do you find these

00:29:35.079 --> 00:29:39.440
people? Yeah. Yeah, well, they advertise on Facebook,

00:29:40.859 --> 00:29:44.539
Craigslist or other websites, you know, and they

00:29:44.539 --> 00:29:48.740
create their own little shop rooms and call a

00:29:48.740 --> 00:29:52.329
certain name of a bird or a code word for it.

00:29:52.569 --> 00:29:55.029
Like Descollados in Miami, you know, which is

00:29:55.029 --> 00:29:57.549
the rose breasted gross beak, right? Or Mariposa,

00:29:57.690 --> 00:30:01.789
which would be the painted buntings, right? Or

00:30:01.789 --> 00:30:05.069
Azulejo, which is the indigo bunting, or Azulejón,

00:30:05.269 --> 00:30:08.349
which is the blue gross beak. And you know, they'll

00:30:08.349 --> 00:30:13.049
advertise this $250, $50, you know, $700 for

00:30:13.049 --> 00:30:16.869
this bird, $1 ,000 for this bird. Right. And

00:30:16.869 --> 00:30:18.750
then, you know, you just make contact when you

00:30:18.750 --> 00:30:21.970
start communicating. One thing you have to be

00:30:21.970 --> 00:30:24.089
careful is they're always looking out. Because

00:30:24.089 --> 00:30:28.089
they know, they know you're looking, you, I mean,

00:30:28.269 --> 00:30:32.130
Ed and Walter as a special agent working on the

00:30:32.130 --> 00:30:35.710
cover capacity or the state officers are looking

00:30:35.710 --> 00:30:39.329
at them. Because we have a unique niche, right?

00:30:39.890 --> 00:30:43.789
We are the experts in wildlife trafficking and

00:30:43.789 --> 00:30:47.910
investigations. So, you know, just like the Secret

00:30:47.910 --> 00:30:50.460
Services. best 50 is protecting the president

00:30:50.460 --> 00:30:53.940
and you know counterfeit money right yeah the

00:30:53.940 --> 00:30:57.140
marshals is fugitives and and people so we the

00:30:57.140 --> 00:30:59.079
fish and wildlife service officer law enforcement

00:30:59.079 --> 00:31:03.400
is wildlife trafficking right you know with the

00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:06.000
partnerships worldwide by here in the united

00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:10.880
states domestically yeah targeting this trafficking

00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:16.420
of wildlife so so they do some uh awesome work

00:31:16.420 --> 00:31:20.839
and take down some a large amount of people you

00:31:20.839 --> 00:31:24.440
know this investigation had like 150 people alone

00:31:24.440 --> 00:31:28.019
across the country yeah yeah across the country

00:31:28.019 --> 00:31:30.559
not just here in south florida but like i said

00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:35.319
arizona texas california nevada wisconsin puerto

00:31:35.319 --> 00:31:43.579
rico uh and georgia and throughout florida you

00:31:43.579 --> 00:31:48.140
mentioned you know you you You define their offers

00:31:48.140 --> 00:31:51.160
for sale online and you know, imagine every single

00:31:51.160 --> 00:31:53.460
one of those offers just putting it up online

00:31:53.460 --> 00:31:55.799
Offering to sell a migratory bird that in and

00:31:55.799 --> 00:32:00.119
of itself as a felony But how did you you mentioned

00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:01.799
they were a little bit, you know, they knew what

00:32:01.799 --> 00:32:04.880
they were doing was illegal Did you ever get

00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:07.079
questioned by them or how did you get yourself

00:32:07.079 --> 00:32:09.859
in? Undercover and start buying birds and did

00:32:09.859 --> 00:32:12.720
you go to any fights or competitions? That's

00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:17.460
the singing fights the singing competitions It's

00:32:17.460 --> 00:32:19.500
a lot of questions. You contact them, right?

00:32:19.700 --> 00:32:22.140
Yeah. You contact them on Facebook and they will

00:32:22.140 --> 00:32:24.279
ask you questions like, where do you live? What

00:32:24.279 --> 00:32:27.779
do you do? And they try to catch you in a lie,

00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:30.940
right? Yep. Because they're very skittish about,

00:32:30.940 --> 00:32:33.079
you know, selling to people that they don't know.

00:32:33.279 --> 00:32:35.799
New customer, right? Yeah. But remember, greed

00:32:35.799 --> 00:32:40.579
will get the fish. Greed will get the criminal.

00:32:41.039 --> 00:32:44.539
And so, you know, you just, you as an undercover

00:32:45.990 --> 00:32:49.289
agent or undercover, working undercover, you

00:32:49.289 --> 00:32:51.349
have to know what you're talking about. Right.

00:32:52.029 --> 00:32:53.509
If you don't know what you're talking about,

00:32:53.609 --> 00:32:55.670
you're going to get caught. Right. But so you

00:32:55.670 --> 00:33:00.549
have to study the species and know the background

00:33:00.549 --> 00:33:05.029
about birds, know about where this birds migrate,

00:33:05.250 --> 00:33:08.269
where this birds mostly at. Because I think I

00:33:08.269 --> 00:33:09.910
mentioned earlier, there's some species that

00:33:09.910 --> 00:33:12.480
are only to the western. side of the country,

00:33:12.680 --> 00:33:14.920
the United States, some on the Easter side of

00:33:14.920 --> 00:33:17.740
the country. Right. And some of them central.

00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:21.980
Right. And so you have to know about this and

00:33:21.980 --> 00:33:26.579
you kind of have to know their nicknames of this

00:33:26.579 --> 00:33:29.079
verse that they use for it. Yeah. The code words

00:33:29.079 --> 00:33:31.700
you mentioned. Yeah. So they're not out there

00:33:31.700 --> 00:33:35.019
actually saying, you know, House Finch or, you

00:33:35.019 --> 00:33:36.980
know, painted bunting. They're using code words

00:33:36.980 --> 00:33:40.039
so that maybe it's a little harder for law enforcement

00:33:40.039 --> 00:33:43.150
to pick up on it. Right. Yeah, I mean, if you

00:33:43.150 --> 00:33:45.369
showed up, hey, can you sell me a Pasarena? Say,

00:33:45.589 --> 00:33:52.930
no. This guy is a biologist or some cop. So get

00:33:52.930 --> 00:33:54.630
out of here. We don't want to deal with you.

00:33:55.150 --> 00:33:57.029
There's the risk of working undercover because

00:33:57.029 --> 00:34:00.990
you're going by yourself. You might have a gun,

00:34:01.069 --> 00:34:03.630
you might not have a gun when you go and do this

00:34:03.630 --> 00:34:05.789
undercover buys. And if they discover that you're

00:34:05.789 --> 00:34:08.500
a cop, they suspect that you're a cop. It could

00:34:08.500 --> 00:34:14.119
go bad very quickly. Yeah, very, very bad. So,

00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:16.659
you know, you have to have a plan for that. So

00:34:16.659 --> 00:34:20.400
that's how I was able to get in because of my

00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:24.619
skills, Spanish and, you know, knowing the culture,

00:34:24.699 --> 00:34:28.179
background, knowing the nicknames of the birds

00:34:28.179 --> 00:34:32.139
and, you know, all the history about birds, where

00:34:32.139 --> 00:34:37.449
they fly, where they're mostly trapped. You don't

00:34:37.449 --> 00:34:40.889
know that most of this stuff happens in Cuba.

00:34:42.369 --> 00:34:45.110
Cuban connection. What's the what's the connection

00:34:45.110 --> 00:34:49.929
with Cuba? So they, you know, you can look it

00:34:49.929 --> 00:34:53.230
up on YouTube and, you know, bird competitions

00:34:53.230 --> 00:34:58.110
in Cuba. Right. And you find videos about, you

00:34:58.110 --> 00:35:02.949
know, indigo buntings, painted buntings, uh,

00:35:02.989 --> 00:35:05.250
roast breasted, gross big, you know, a bunch

00:35:05.250 --> 00:35:10.139
of people. in a park or somewhere or in a house

00:35:10.139 --> 00:35:14.300
having these competitions, but supposedly the

00:35:14.300 --> 00:35:17.659
best birds, the most trained, the most colorful

00:35:17.659 --> 00:35:21.599
come from Cuba. So they traffic those birds,

00:35:21.780 --> 00:35:24.500
and those birds garnish thousands of dollars.

00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:31.039
Wow. Right? Okay. So they'll give them Tylenol

00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:34.380
or something that will put them to sleep. They

00:35:34.380 --> 00:35:38.159
put them on hill rollers or in a sock and conceal

00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:42.659
them in their body or in a bag. And, you know,

00:35:42.659 --> 00:35:45.739
the flight from Cuba is what 45 minutes, 30 minutes

00:35:45.739 --> 00:35:49.199
to Miami. And, you know, in hopes that they go

00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:52.360
by customs and voter protection and they don't

00:35:52.360 --> 00:35:57.800
get detected. We caught a few people in and at

00:35:57.800 --> 00:36:00.519
the Miami International Airport, Fort Lauderdale,

00:36:00.860 --> 00:36:06.019
even Tampa and for miners. No kidding. Airports,

00:36:06.440 --> 00:36:08.219
yeah. And that's a much more serious offense

00:36:08.219 --> 00:36:10.500
once they do that. That's a smuggling charge,

00:36:10.559 --> 00:36:13.119
which is a much more serious felony. Oh, yeah.

00:36:13.500 --> 00:36:16.579
Yeah, interesting. So, okay, so there's Cuban

00:36:16.579 --> 00:36:18.980
Americans involved. There's a demand for the

00:36:18.980 --> 00:36:23.139
birds that come out of Cuba because they're more

00:36:23.139 --> 00:36:26.960
prized. And then there's this heavy, you know,

00:36:27.019 --> 00:36:29.940
impact on migratory birds within the United States,

00:36:30.019 --> 00:36:34.090
continental US as well. it must've been kind

00:36:34.090 --> 00:36:37.510
of rewarding to be getting in there and knowing

00:36:37.510 --> 00:36:40.050
you were making a difference, but also like a

00:36:40.050 --> 00:36:42.190
little bit like, Oh my gosh, what's, what's,

00:36:42.190 --> 00:36:43.969
what's going on, right? The more you learn, the

00:36:43.969 --> 00:36:47.670
more kind of horrified you get. One tele talk

00:36:47.670 --> 00:36:49.750
to us a little bit about like, how many buys

00:36:49.750 --> 00:36:52.519
did you make and how did you decide? when you're

00:36:52.519 --> 00:36:55.260
going to charge somebody, right? Like how long

00:36:55.260 --> 00:36:58.099
did you go on with making undercover contacts

00:36:58.099 --> 00:37:00.059
with people before you kind of said, okay, this

00:37:00.059 --> 00:37:02.360
is enough killing, or not killing, but catching

00:37:02.360 --> 00:37:08.500
birds. We got to take this case down. So, you

00:37:08.500 --> 00:37:10.579
know, you start buying from these people and

00:37:10.579 --> 00:37:12.739
you know, you're always in coordination with

00:37:12.739 --> 00:37:14.679
the U .S. Attorney's Office, which is the prosecutor

00:37:14.679 --> 00:37:17.820
for the federal government, right? The AUSAs,

00:37:18.159 --> 00:37:20.519
Assistant United States Attorneys. And you're

00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:22.340
in coordination with them and then you say, hey,

00:37:22.420 --> 00:37:25.380
look, this individual is selling this bird and

00:37:25.380 --> 00:37:28.619
they give you specifics, right? That, you know,

00:37:28.880 --> 00:37:34.079
you got to prove certain elements of the crime.

00:37:34.800 --> 00:37:36.679
Once you have proven those certain elements of

00:37:36.679 --> 00:37:39.480
the crime, then it will be the prosecutor that

00:37:39.480 --> 00:37:45.340
decides when to go and take this this individual

00:37:45.340 --> 00:37:49.690
down. But sometimes you. not just take one individual

00:37:49.690 --> 00:37:51.670
down, you have to wait and take out the whole

00:37:51.670 --> 00:37:54.969
network out. So you infiltrate the network, right?

00:37:55.869 --> 00:38:01.329
And yes, some birds are lost, but you look at

00:38:01.329 --> 00:38:03.869
the overall, what is that you accomplish? You

00:38:03.869 --> 00:38:07.090
want to accomplish just giving someone a ticket

00:38:07.090 --> 00:38:10.789
or taking the entire network down. And the goal

00:38:10.789 --> 00:38:14.389
of any undercover operation is to have an impact

00:38:14.389 --> 00:38:19.389
on what's gonna happen in the future. So people

00:38:19.389 --> 00:38:21.750
take notice and say, well, you know, hey, this

00:38:21.750 --> 00:38:24.969
could be an undercover agent from the Fish and

00:38:24.969 --> 00:38:26.690
Wildlife Service or from the state of Florida

00:38:26.690 --> 00:38:29.769
or from whatever state, right, that is coming

00:38:29.769 --> 00:38:36.829
after us. So our goal is to stop the trafficking

00:38:36.829 --> 00:38:42.369
and the cruelty to these animals, these birds,

00:38:42.530 --> 00:38:46.000
right? That's the goal. And so you always have

00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:50.820
to coordinate and work with not just the U .S.

00:38:51.019 --> 00:38:56.199
Attorney's Office, but your counterparts, the

00:38:56.199 --> 00:39:00.760
city, the county, the state, and your other federal

00:39:00.760 --> 00:39:06.780
counterparts about when is the proper time and

00:39:06.780 --> 00:39:09.659
the right time to take these people down. It's

00:39:09.659 --> 00:39:11.860
an interesting dilemma, isn't it? And we all

00:39:11.860 --> 00:39:14.179
faced it as investigators at some point in our

00:39:14.179 --> 00:39:17.800
careers where, like you said, if you just take

00:39:17.800 --> 00:39:20.039
the case down on the very first person you catch,

00:39:20.119 --> 00:39:23.739
if you have a kind of a systemic problem where

00:39:23.739 --> 00:39:25.800
you've got people commercializing wildlife, if

00:39:25.800 --> 00:39:28.420
you just catch that first person and you charge

00:39:28.420 --> 00:39:31.380
them with the very first offense they commit,

00:39:32.280 --> 00:39:35.530
you're really not addressing the big problem,

00:39:35.730 --> 00:39:37.849
right? You're, you're just, you know, punishing

00:39:37.849 --> 00:39:40.449
one person. They get a probably a minimal fine

00:39:40.449 --> 00:39:44.710
cause it's one incident and the rest of the community

00:39:44.710 --> 00:39:47.130
is like, ah, too bad. That sucker got caught.

00:39:47.230 --> 00:39:50.010
You know, I won't get caught. It's a really,

00:39:50.050 --> 00:39:52.250
really important to take down the whole network

00:39:52.250 --> 00:39:54.409
or as many people as you can, or at least the

00:39:54.409 --> 00:39:58.030
most important players because well, first of

00:39:58.030 --> 00:40:00.230
all, they get a harsher penalty if you document

00:40:00.230 --> 00:40:03.110
that they are engaged in this in a systemic way.

00:40:03.679 --> 00:40:06.820
Second, you catch multiple people. Everybody,

00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:08.659
you know, there's more of a deterrent because

00:40:08.659 --> 00:40:11.599
everybody's aware, like, oh, shit, they are organized.

00:40:11.599 --> 00:40:14.780
Right. And then, you know, thirdly, it gets the

00:40:14.780 --> 00:40:16.739
media's attention and it gets the U .S. Attorney's

00:40:16.739 --> 00:40:19.380
Office attention when you have multiple people

00:40:19.380 --> 00:40:22.860
involved in ongoing criminal activity. And that's

00:40:22.860 --> 00:40:26.139
the way you ultimately deter. But for us as investigators,

00:40:26.199 --> 00:40:28.639
you always end up in this moment where it's like,

00:40:28.760 --> 00:40:34.500
oh, my gosh, I'm documenting violations. And

00:40:34.500 --> 00:40:38.380
when do I take it down? Right. It's like, sometimes

00:40:38.380 --> 00:40:41.179
it's just like, I don't know. Is it time? Is

00:40:41.179 --> 00:40:44.099
it not time? And it does take a little bit of

00:40:44.099 --> 00:40:47.119
a group effort. And it does take, I guess, you

00:40:47.119 --> 00:40:50.119
know what some, I hate to say balls, but sometimes

00:40:50.119 --> 00:40:52.480
you just have to say, this is it. I'm taking

00:40:52.480 --> 00:40:55.239
it down. And yeah, we're not going to get everybody

00:40:55.239 --> 00:40:56.699
in the group, but we're going to get the big

00:40:56.699 --> 00:41:00.599
players. Right. Yeah, and not only does it take

00:41:00.599 --> 00:41:02.840
that, what you're just explaining, but also takes

00:41:02.840 --> 00:41:06.639
resources, right? Money to do the undercover

00:41:06.639 --> 00:41:14.699
buys, setting up sting operations, setting up

00:41:14.699 --> 00:41:20.380
fake businesses. It just takes a whole approach

00:41:20.380 --> 00:41:24.619
and the support of management, right? But management

00:41:24.619 --> 00:41:27.300
can support you all day. They can, but if the

00:41:27.300 --> 00:41:30.539
U .S. attorney's office is not arrested, you

00:41:30.539 --> 00:41:32.500
really have no case because they're the ones

00:41:32.500 --> 00:41:34.440
that are going to prosecute. Right. You know,

00:41:34.460 --> 00:41:36.800
we were fortunate here in South Florida, we have

00:41:36.800 --> 00:41:39.500
Thomas Watts Fitzgerald and the environment here

00:41:39.500 --> 00:41:43.179
that were very aggressive and and prosecuting,

00:41:43.340 --> 00:41:45.500
but also they have their limitations too, you

00:41:45.500 --> 00:41:50.280
know? Sure. You're lucky if Miami had a fantastic

00:41:50.280 --> 00:41:52.900
U .S. attorney recently retired, Tom Watts Fitzgerald,

00:41:53.000 --> 00:41:56.119
fantastic, well known across the country as being

00:41:56.119 --> 00:41:59.340
aggressive and supporting US Fish and Wildlife

00:41:59.340 --> 00:42:01.739
Service. We were lucky in LA, too. We had an

00:42:01.739 --> 00:42:03.820
environmental crimes unit within the local US

00:42:03.820 --> 00:42:06.159
Attorney's office, and we always had really fantastic

00:42:06.159 --> 00:42:08.820
prosecutors to support our cases. It's not always

00:42:08.820 --> 00:42:11.059
true around the country. Sometimes our agents

00:42:11.059 --> 00:42:13.619
are just going in and taking their cases to the

00:42:13.619 --> 00:42:16.199
general criminal division, and they're competing

00:42:16.199 --> 00:42:19.260
with cases from the FBI and Secret Service and

00:42:19.260 --> 00:42:22.559
ATF. Sometimes it's hard to get US attorneys

00:42:22.559 --> 00:42:25.920
interested in a wildlife case. But this case,

00:42:26.980 --> 00:42:29.760
I wanted to ask you, did you ever go to one of

00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:33.420
these singing competitions? I didn't specifically.

00:42:33.539 --> 00:42:37.940
I would take my birds to a specific subject that

00:42:37.940 --> 00:42:43.739
I have befriended, Armando Spino. He was a well

00:42:43.739 --> 00:42:46.960
-known big fish in South Florida with trapping

00:42:46.960 --> 00:42:50.239
and selling this bird. And he had some pretty

00:42:50.239 --> 00:42:52.480
good birds, singing birds and colorful birds.

00:42:52.599 --> 00:42:54.400
But he also said I had some, a bunch of birds

00:42:54.400 --> 00:42:57.780
that were not taken care of, you know, and that's

00:42:57.780 --> 00:43:01.719
what really, what I wanted to stop, right? Yeah.

00:43:01.860 --> 00:43:03.619
You know, not only the trapping and trafficking,

00:43:03.719 --> 00:43:07.920
but the, the cruelty to this animals that there

00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:10.000
was taking place. And, you know, I would go and

00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:12.679
bring my bird and have a singing competition

00:43:12.679 --> 00:43:16.599
with the CSO because I was training my bird to

00:43:16.599 --> 00:43:21.139
go to the singing competition. So and you know,

00:43:21.159 --> 00:43:23.599
we don't only just have one case going on we

00:43:23.599 --> 00:43:27.699
have several cases. Yeah, but You know back going

00:43:27.699 --> 00:43:30.179
back to earlier it takes dedication, you know,

00:43:30.179 --> 00:43:34.039
I'll be working 18 hour days 16 hour days 12

00:43:34.039 --> 00:43:38.260
hour days To be able to get this case going.

00:43:38.420 --> 00:43:41.260
Yeah, but not just me, but also my other co -workers

00:43:41.260 --> 00:43:44.639
Yeah that going on, you know plus, you know after

00:43:44.639 --> 00:43:46.460
you have a meeting an undercover meeting you

00:43:46.460 --> 00:43:50.090
got to go home and make a special report about

00:43:50.090 --> 00:43:52.230
that particular meeting and you got to transcribe

00:43:52.230 --> 00:43:54.889
all those, all those recordings, especially if

00:43:54.889 --> 00:43:57.010
some of them are in Spanish, you got to translate

00:43:57.010 --> 00:43:58.750
them, right? That's it. Well, that's all work.

00:43:59.829 --> 00:44:04.110
Oh, man. I'll tell you, I mean, a 30 minute recording

00:44:04.110 --> 00:44:06.650
will take eight hours to translate. Totally.

00:44:07.210 --> 00:44:10.090
Totally. It's, uh, do an undercover. This can

00:44:10.090 --> 00:44:12.869
be a nightmare. Yeah. Because of the money issues,

00:44:12.929 --> 00:44:15.710
the fun issues, we have to do it ourselves. Exactly.

00:44:15.849 --> 00:44:19.250
Yeah. Yeah. It's rare. hire people to do our

00:44:19.250 --> 00:44:24.070
translations. Anyway, so you raised an interesting

00:44:24.070 --> 00:44:27.489
point, and that is, what was this guy's name?

00:44:28.130 --> 00:44:30.389
He said, was it Armando? That was his name? Armando

00:44:30.389 --> 00:44:34.809
Spino. Yeah. And the other one was Laredo, Alejandro

00:44:34.809 --> 00:44:37.170
Laredo. And there was another guy they called

00:44:37.170 --> 00:44:42.170
El Doctor, the Doctor in South Florida. And you

00:44:42.170 --> 00:44:47.139
have Alain Armando Guevara, who were Probably

00:44:47.139 --> 00:44:50.820
the biggest ones around South Florida. They were

00:44:50.820 --> 00:44:53.460
doing all this trapping and stuff and you probably

00:44:53.460 --> 00:44:55.639
find news articles if you do a search on them

00:44:55.639 --> 00:45:01.659
on Google or on the internet about it. They got

00:45:01.659 --> 00:45:07.679
taken down and Laredo even crucified a bird and

00:45:07.679 --> 00:45:09.659
you could probably see that. I mean literally

00:45:09.659 --> 00:45:13.260
crucified, put it on the cross. What? Yeah, and

00:45:13.260 --> 00:45:19.730
crucified a bird that was eating his Oh, so he

00:45:19.730 --> 00:45:21.670
targeted like a hawk or something like that,

00:45:21.710 --> 00:45:25.730
huh? Yeah, I forgot the exact bird. He tortured

00:45:25.730 --> 00:45:28.309
it to death, basically. Yeah, he tortured it.

00:45:28.309 --> 00:45:31.090
And, you know, he recorded and posted online.

00:45:31.969 --> 00:45:36.389
Geez, Louise. Why? Oh, my God, that's awful.

00:45:36.760 --> 00:45:40.760
But it doesn't surprise me, honestly. I saw it

00:45:40.760 --> 00:45:43.300
with the pigeon fanciers out here in California.

00:45:43.380 --> 00:45:45.639
They hated hawks and falcons. They hated predatory

00:45:45.639 --> 00:45:49.480
birds and they sometimes tortured them and it

00:45:49.480 --> 00:45:54.320
was not pleasant. That's insidious. But you raise

00:45:54.320 --> 00:45:56.599
an interesting point with this Armando guy and

00:45:56.599 --> 00:45:58.619
the others, these major players who were trapping

00:45:58.619 --> 00:46:01.980
a lot of birds. You mentioned that some of the

00:46:01.980 --> 00:46:04.400
birds were kept in cruel conditions or didn't

00:46:04.400 --> 00:46:07.889
survive and I'm betting You can't tell me if

00:46:07.889 --> 00:46:10.570
I'm wrong. The birds that were not treated well

00:46:10.570 --> 00:46:14.150
were not the strong singers, right? No, no, no,

00:46:14.570 --> 00:46:19.369
no. Yeah. I mean, what this illustrates is that

00:46:19.369 --> 00:46:22.730
these people, and this is critical, as you mentioned,

00:46:23.070 --> 00:46:25.670
part of the purpose of this podcast is to help

00:46:25.670 --> 00:46:27.809
educate people about what's going on out there.

00:46:27.949 --> 00:46:30.570
And it is critical for people to understand that

00:46:30.570 --> 00:46:33.309
these people you were after, you were infiltrating

00:46:33.309 --> 00:46:35.969
and that you ultimately caught, they're not bird

00:46:35.969 --> 00:46:41.989
lovers. Right? They view these birds as a commodity,

00:46:42.030 --> 00:46:46.130
in a commercial way. They're catching these birds

00:46:46.130 --> 00:46:48.170
and they're keeping these birds and caring for

00:46:48.170 --> 00:46:51.329
them only so far as these birds make money for

00:46:51.329 --> 00:46:54.190
them. That's it. That's it. It's a commercial

00:46:54.190 --> 00:46:57.349
transaction. It's a money -generating source.

00:46:57.929 --> 00:46:59.349
And they don't care about these birds. They will

00:46:59.349 --> 00:47:01.949
tell you, oh no, it's our tradition, it's our

00:47:01.949 --> 00:47:05.409
customs. They don't care about these birds. I

00:47:05.409 --> 00:47:08.760
mean, I learned that during my undercover operations.

00:47:09.199 --> 00:47:12.340
I mean, they hold this birds and, you know, hardly

00:47:12.340 --> 00:47:16.119
any feathers on this bird, you know, like you,

00:47:16.119 --> 00:47:18.400
you know, pluck all the feathers from the bird

00:47:18.400 --> 00:47:21.000
and then, you know, this birds are living a horrible

00:47:21.000 --> 00:47:25.599
life. Yeah. But yeah, they will tell you. Oh,

00:47:25.659 --> 00:47:28.679
you know, as a culture, we're taking care of

00:47:28.679 --> 00:47:31.900
this bird. We're saving it because their numbers

00:47:31.900 --> 00:47:33.940
are going down. The population is going down.

00:47:33.960 --> 00:47:37.039
So we're saving it by trapping them. And well,

00:47:37.400 --> 00:47:41.179
those birds are they don't live long in captivity.

00:47:41.420 --> 00:47:46.199
Number two, they don't reproduce, right? In captivity.

00:47:47.340 --> 00:47:50.159
And why is because most of them were males. I'm

00:47:50.159 --> 00:47:51.340
not going to tell you there were no females,

00:47:51.579 --> 00:47:53.320
but most of them were males because they're the

00:47:53.320 --> 00:47:55.760
most colorful ones and the strongest singers.

00:47:56.500 --> 00:47:58.719
Right. Yeah. And I can't tell you how many times

00:47:58.719 --> 00:48:01.460
I heard that after somebody was arrested, they'd

00:48:01.460 --> 00:48:03.420
get in front of a judge and they'd try to portray

00:48:03.420 --> 00:48:06.980
themselves as some sort of a bird lover or conservationist

00:48:06.980 --> 00:48:10.079
who just kind of, you know, went a little too

00:48:10.079 --> 00:48:14.579
far. It's total bullshit. I mean, you and I know

00:48:14.579 --> 00:48:17.599
that, but that's why I said this program is important.

00:48:17.599 --> 00:48:19.440
You know, I wish they were more like this because

00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:23.860
then the the American public knows about this.

00:48:23.900 --> 00:48:27.760
Right. I always I could say it now that I'm no

00:48:27.760 --> 00:48:30.760
longer there. But, you know, I think the Fish

00:48:30.760 --> 00:48:33.260
and Wildlife Service should do a better job in

00:48:33.260 --> 00:48:38.860
in educating the American public. Yes. On what's

00:48:38.860 --> 00:48:41.679
happening with wildlife trafficking, as you know,

00:48:41.800 --> 00:48:45.019
is either the third or fourth most lucrative

00:48:45.019 --> 00:48:49.840
illegal business in the world, right? And to

00:48:49.840 --> 00:48:54.840
be in third or fourth is, it has to be big. But

00:48:54.840 --> 00:48:57.300
the wildlife trafficking is not just wildlife

00:48:57.300 --> 00:49:00.300
trafficking. It's connected with arms, with drugs,

00:49:01.079 --> 00:49:06.699
with the cartels. There's a method now that the

00:49:06.699 --> 00:49:10.039
Mexican cartels were using wildlife to pay for

00:49:10.039 --> 00:49:15.340
the precursors for fentanyl. So I don't know

00:49:15.340 --> 00:49:17.780
if you're aware of that. But I think I'd heard

00:49:17.780 --> 00:49:20.039
that. I knew that, you know, the cartels were

00:49:20.039 --> 00:49:23.559
implicated in Tituaba trafficking in particular.

00:49:24.440 --> 00:49:27.460
But yeah, and, you know, that's not just in the

00:49:27.460 --> 00:49:31.340
U .S. You mentioned Mexico as well. But, you

00:49:31.340 --> 00:49:34.219
know, organized crime is also involved in wildlife

00:49:34.219 --> 00:49:36.840
trafficking in Africa. And, you know, there's

00:49:36.840 --> 00:49:40.889
a lot of drugs involved as well. we could go

00:49:40.889 --> 00:49:44.170
on and on about that. But, you know, this was

00:49:44.170 --> 00:49:46.750
a great case. How many, you mentioned there were

00:49:46.750 --> 00:49:48.889
hundreds of people that, you know, it wasn't

00:49:48.889 --> 00:49:51.889
just you that was doing, was involved in investigation.

00:49:52.070 --> 00:49:54.269
There was investigation going on in other states

00:49:54.269 --> 00:49:57.230
and other agents kind of leading those, but Operation

00:49:57.230 --> 00:49:59.510
Ornery Birds was kind of an all -encompassing

00:49:59.510 --> 00:50:02.929
thing for a while. How many people ultimately

00:50:02.929 --> 00:50:05.389
got scooped up in the takedown then? How did

00:50:05.389 --> 00:50:09.099
that go? So there were multiple takedowns, but

00:50:09.099 --> 00:50:12.679
in total it was of approximately 40 to 45 people

00:50:12.679 --> 00:50:16.940
that we took down. Nice. Now remember this 2012

00:50:16.940 --> 00:50:21.719
to 2024. Yeah, it's a long time, but you know.

00:50:21.840 --> 00:50:24.659
And we'd have to go into the details about how

00:50:24.659 --> 00:50:26.880
investigations work to kind of understand that.

00:50:27.280 --> 00:50:29.480
But sometimes these longer investigations where

00:50:29.480 --> 00:50:32.300
it's hard to get in or infiltrate, they can kind

00:50:32.300 --> 00:50:34.659
of go in peaks and valleys, right? You might

00:50:34.659 --> 00:50:36.739
be succeeding for a while, and then the case

00:50:36.739 --> 00:50:38.440
kind of goes dormant for a while because you're

00:50:38.440 --> 00:50:43.179
just not making any progress. So it's not like

00:50:43.179 --> 00:50:46.079
10 years constantly working on it. Probably there

00:50:46.079 --> 00:50:49.719
were some peaks and valleys. When they finally

00:50:49.719 --> 00:50:51.860
kind of got on it at the last, it was really

00:50:51.860 --> 00:50:54.300
going hard, right? And remember, there's migration

00:50:54.300 --> 00:50:57.980
seasons, right? Right. Right. Which last no to

00:50:57.980 --> 00:51:01.940
a month or a month and a half. Right. So you

00:51:01.940 --> 00:51:04.679
have these migration seasons while this is the

00:51:04.679 --> 00:51:07.800
migration season stops, then work stops, right?

00:51:08.159 --> 00:51:11.400
Less trapping, right? We are less trapping. There's

00:51:11.400 --> 00:51:14.539
always trapping going on, but less trapping,

00:51:14.719 --> 00:51:17.320
less cases. And then you have to catch up with

00:51:17.320 --> 00:51:19.340
all the other paperwork that you have to do,

00:51:19.460 --> 00:51:23.719
as you know, undercover work creates a huge number

00:51:23.719 --> 00:51:27.739
of paperwork, a huge amount of paperwork. And,

00:51:28.239 --> 00:51:30.719
you know, you have to get approvals and you have

00:51:30.719 --> 00:51:35.280
to coordinate all this. So it is a complex, very

00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:39.940
complex investigation per se. Plus, of course,

00:51:39.940 --> 00:51:42.039
you got other cases you're working on too, because

00:51:42.039 --> 00:51:44.460
being a small agency, it's not like very few

00:51:44.460 --> 00:51:47.139
agents can devote all their time to one case,

00:51:47.179 --> 00:51:49.699
they have to work other things as well. Indeed.

00:51:50.039 --> 00:51:52.780
Yeah. And then you have to keep, you have to

00:51:52.780 --> 00:51:55.219
keep in contact with these individuals too. Right.

00:51:55.280 --> 00:51:56.840
You have to keep the relationship going, right?

00:51:56.860 --> 00:51:58.500
Right. You have to keep this relationship because

00:51:58.500 --> 00:52:02.239
if you don't, then you become a stranger. Yeah.

00:52:02.880 --> 00:52:04.739
So you, you know, you have to sometimes go to

00:52:04.739 --> 00:52:07.460
their house and you, you got to go and have a

00:52:07.460 --> 00:52:11.789
cup of coffee. You got to pay for that. You know,

00:52:11.869 --> 00:52:13.349
the government is going to pay for that, so you

00:52:13.349 --> 00:52:15.510
got to use your own money to do this, Diggs.

00:52:16.389 --> 00:52:18.130
Like, hey, I just want to have a cup of coffee

00:52:18.130 --> 00:52:19.909
with you, see how you're doing. And, you know,

00:52:20.469 --> 00:52:22.590
the bad guys appreciate that, just like anybody

00:52:22.590 --> 00:52:25.550
else does. They do. Right? Yeah. Relationships

00:52:25.550 --> 00:52:28.130
are great. Yeah. This guy is great, man. He's

00:52:28.130 --> 00:52:31.849
no cop. Did you, uh, did you have any problems?

00:52:32.110 --> 00:52:33.949
Sometimes we've had people on the show have talked

00:52:33.949 --> 00:52:35.909
about how they actually got to kind of like some

00:52:35.909 --> 00:52:37.570
of the people that they worked undercover. I

00:52:37.570 --> 00:52:39.670
certainly had that happen to me. Did you have

00:52:39.670 --> 00:52:41.809
any issues like that? I mean, obviously you're

00:52:41.809 --> 00:52:43.809
a professional, so you're going to take them

00:52:43.809 --> 00:52:46.030
down regardless. But, uh, did you ever have any

00:52:46.030 --> 00:52:47.769
situations like that where you're like, Oh, I

00:52:47.769 --> 00:52:50.590
hate this guy. And I, I I'm struggling to pretend

00:52:50.590 --> 00:52:53.050
to be his friend or actually kind of like this

00:52:53.050 --> 00:52:56.090
guy. And I wish he wasn't a criminal. I mean,

00:52:56.110 --> 00:53:00.179
Armando Espino was a real nice guy. family man,

00:53:01.019 --> 00:53:04.559
but you always have to keep, you know, the professional

00:53:04.559 --> 00:53:08.219
thing is like, your job is to make sure you meet

00:53:08.219 --> 00:53:10.460
all those elements and that this individual gets

00:53:10.460 --> 00:53:12.719
prosecuted because he's having such a big impact

00:53:12.719 --> 00:53:16.559
on the traffic and the wildlife, right? But also,

00:53:16.559 --> 00:53:19.059
you know, I had an individual that was like way

00:53:19.059 --> 00:53:22.199
old and I was like, it reminds me of my grandfather.

00:53:24.760 --> 00:53:26.440
I mean, I feel bad for him, but he has to go

00:53:26.440 --> 00:53:29.460
to jail. Yeah. There's always somebody you feel

00:53:29.460 --> 00:53:31.699
a little sorry for, right? The target. Right.

00:53:33.280 --> 00:53:36.599
So you feel like you had an impact in protecting

00:53:36.599 --> 00:53:40.079
the species through these cases? Oh, yeah. No,

00:53:40.179 --> 00:53:45.179
I mean, thanks to the support and and, you know,

00:53:45.280 --> 00:53:49.780
learning about this, I think we we have a huge

00:53:49.780 --> 00:53:55.280
impact on the trafficking and trapping of some

00:53:55.280 --> 00:54:02.219
birds and. in the United States as a whole. Operation

00:54:02.219 --> 00:54:05.639
Texas Melody, there was a spinoff of Operation

00:54:05.639 --> 00:54:09.300
Ordinary Birds that Texas, the Houston Sioux

00:54:09.300 --> 00:54:16.039
has an area just for some birds. Wow. That came

00:54:16.039 --> 00:54:19.820
from this case? From Operation Texas Melody that

00:54:19.820 --> 00:54:22.760
I did a bunch on the cover bodies over there.

00:54:22.900 --> 00:54:26.639
Once again, because my Spanish. Right. You're

00:54:26.639 --> 00:54:29.380
not going to send a newcomer to buy from a Cuban

00:54:29.380 --> 00:54:35.480
or a Mexican or something, you know. Definitely,

00:54:35.840 --> 00:54:38.400
they would be a little suspicious. Was Operation,

00:54:38.420 --> 00:54:40.440
what did you call it, Texas Melody? Was that

00:54:40.440 --> 00:54:45.239
Agent Snodgrass's case? Yes, yes. A wonderful

00:54:45.239 --> 00:54:51.099
and very talented agent, I could tell you that.

00:54:51.400 --> 00:54:54.360
I really enjoy working with him, just like I

00:54:54.360 --> 00:54:58.340
didn't. uh, enjoy working with, uh, agent Victor

00:54:58.340 --> 00:55:03.239
Penalosa and, uh, who was here in Miami and Alexander

00:55:03.239 --> 00:55:07.320
Cullen. You know, those people that really inspire

00:55:07.320 --> 00:55:10.719
you to work and work harder and, and just like,

00:55:11.380 --> 00:55:14.239
you really want to make the case and you really

00:55:14.239 --> 00:55:17.820
want to, uh, do a huge impact because there's

00:55:17.820 --> 00:55:20.940
people were so dedicated, right? Yeah. There

00:55:20.940 --> 00:55:24.119
were cops cops but they also love the mission

00:55:24.119 --> 00:55:26.280
of the fish and water service of protecting the

00:55:26.280 --> 00:55:29.579
wildlife in and make sure that i see a future

00:55:29.579 --> 00:55:33.199
generations enjoyment hundred percent i've always

00:55:33.199 --> 00:55:35.460
said walter i'm sure you agree and you're one

00:55:35.460 --> 00:55:40.599
of them you know. I've never met you know on

00:55:40.599 --> 00:55:42.880
the whole us fish and wildlife service agents

00:55:42.880 --> 00:55:45.559
are among i think the best educated the best

00:55:45.559 --> 00:55:48.539
trained and the most tenacious. federal agents

00:55:48.539 --> 00:55:52.280
and will be any criminal who comes up against

00:55:52.280 --> 00:55:55.059
one because you're going to lose. He will lose

00:55:55.059 --> 00:55:58.679
in the long run. The dedication that you have,

00:55:58.840 --> 00:56:01.860
you know, is the dedication and the passion and

00:56:01.860 --> 00:56:06.659
the belief in that you really are making an impact.

00:56:06.880 --> 00:56:09.699
You know, I mean, this wildlife doesn't choose

00:56:09.699 --> 00:56:13.960
to be trapped, doesn't choose to be what you

00:56:13.960 --> 00:56:19.699
call a receive cruelty. Right. and to be, do

00:56:19.699 --> 00:56:24.639
horrible things to it. But, you know, you, as

00:56:24.639 --> 00:56:28.519
an agent, you see it as, hey, I'm not only protecting

00:56:28.519 --> 00:56:30.679
this wildlife, but I'm protecting the ecosystem.

00:56:30.679 --> 00:56:34.900
Yes. Not just here in the United States, but

00:56:34.900 --> 00:56:39.079
abroad. Exactly. You mentioned Asia, right? Yep.

00:56:39.320 --> 00:56:43.179
Africa, all of Latin America. You know, this,

00:56:43.179 --> 00:56:46.159
this burst traveled through thousands of miles

00:56:46.159 --> 00:56:51.360
overseas to go one little bird, you know, stops

00:56:51.360 --> 00:56:54.360
at a National Wildlife Refuge, breeds, rests,

00:56:54.380 --> 00:56:57.940
and then takes off. It's amazing, you know? It

00:56:57.940 --> 00:57:01.780
is. Well, you know what? I've always said, you

00:57:01.780 --> 00:57:04.760
know, if you commit a wildlife crime, a federal

00:57:04.760 --> 00:57:07.059
wildlife crime, a U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service

00:57:07.059 --> 00:57:10.280
Special Agent will pursue you. They will catch

00:57:10.280 --> 00:57:12.360
you and they will put you in jail. It's just

00:57:12.360 --> 00:57:16.030
a matter of time. Walter, what I'm going to do

00:57:16.030 --> 00:57:18.750
is I will put some documents and some photographs

00:57:18.750 --> 00:57:21.829
up on the Nature Secret Service webpage so if

00:57:21.829 --> 00:57:23.449
people are interested in learning more about

00:57:23.449 --> 00:57:25.150
the types of birds that were involved in your

00:57:25.150 --> 00:57:27.969
case, or actually reading some of the case documents

00:57:27.969 --> 00:57:30.570
that I'll pull off of Pacer, they're welcome

00:57:30.570 --> 00:57:33.389
to go do that. I really appreciate your time.

00:57:33.510 --> 00:57:36.489
This has been kind of an eye -opening discussion

00:57:36.489 --> 00:57:40.570
about the exploitation of native migratory birds

00:57:40.570 --> 00:57:42.920
in the United States, something even as an agent,

00:57:43.159 --> 00:57:45.420
I didn't know what was going on. And I'm so happy

00:57:45.420 --> 00:57:48.840
that you and other agents took this on and tackled

00:57:48.840 --> 00:57:51.300
it and saw it through to the end and took these

00:57:51.300 --> 00:57:54.599
guys down. So great job. Thank you so much. And

00:57:54.599 --> 00:57:56.820
thank you for coming on the program to tell us

00:57:56.820 --> 00:58:00.659
the story. Oh, it's a pleasure to talk to you.

00:58:00.820 --> 00:58:02.940
And, you know, just like it was a pleasure working

00:58:02.940 --> 00:58:06.940
with you, you know, while we were working, right.

00:58:07.360 --> 00:58:12.099
But just to be able to relay the message to the

00:58:12.099 --> 00:58:14.519
American public, you know, that this is happening

00:58:14.519 --> 00:58:17.300
and that it's a serious thing going on. So thank

00:58:17.300 --> 00:58:19.340
you for having this and thank you for, you know,

00:58:19.440 --> 00:58:20.960
your service and the U .S. Christian Wildlife

00:58:20.960 --> 00:58:24.739
Service. Thank you, Walter. Same to you. It was

00:58:24.739 --> 00:58:26.960
always a pleasure. We were on opposite sides

00:58:26.960 --> 00:58:28.900
of the country, but we ran into each other at

00:58:28.900 --> 00:58:31.340
training and different times. And I always enjoyed

00:58:31.340 --> 00:58:33.519
talking to you. I knew I could tell. I could

00:58:33.519 --> 00:58:36.019
see in your eyes you had the fire like I did.

00:58:36.059 --> 00:58:37.860
It doesn't happen without team effort, right?

00:58:38.440 --> 00:58:41.750
There you go. That's the keyword team. Exactly.

00:58:42.650 --> 00:58:45.250
What is it? Agent Glenn Yech always says one

00:58:45.250 --> 00:58:51.289
team, one fight, right? Yes, indeed. Yeah. All

00:58:51.289 --> 00:58:52.949
right, Walter, thank you so much for being on

00:58:52.949 --> 00:58:55.010
the show. I appreciate it. We'll have you back

00:58:55.010 --> 00:58:57.110
again. And I know you and I'll stay in touch

00:58:57.110 --> 00:59:00.190
for everybody else. We'll see you next time.

00:59:00.570 --> 00:59:02.409
Nature's Secret Service is written and produced

00:59:02.409 --> 00:59:05.099
by me, Ed Newcomer. and is co -produced by the

00:59:05.099 --> 00:59:08.300
DHTV team here at California State University

00:59:08.300 --> 00:59:10.860
Dominguez Hills. Follow us on social media and

00:59:10.860 --> 00:59:13.139
connect with us online at naturessecretservice

00:59:13.139 --> 00:59:13.760
.com.