WEBVTT

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If you want to learn more about the topics of

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today's episode, visit the podcast website at

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naturessecretservice .com. Thanks for listening.

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OK, people, listen up. Here we go. This is Nature's

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Secret Service, the podcast that puts you in

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the room with the men and women of wildlife law

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enforcement. I'm Ed Newcomer, your host. And

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before we introduce today's guest, I just want

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to point out I've been kind of tracking how the

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podcast is going. And I've been amazed and astonished

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and flattered. We have listeners actually all

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over the world. We had somebody tune in from

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Tonga recently, which is just phenomenal to me.

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I can't tell you how much I appreciate everybody

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who's listening to the podcast, watching it on

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YouTube, contacting me through the website with

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your comments or suggestions. It's just been

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great. I really appreciate it. Today, we're lucky

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because we have an in -person guest who came

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into the studio to talk to us, somebody I've

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known for many years. Our guest today is Kathy

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Ponting. She's a former lieutenant with the California

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Department of Fish and Wildlife, which used to

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be known as the California Department of Fish

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and Game. She spent many years there as a uniformed

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officer and ended her career as the lieutenant

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overseeing their special operations unit, which

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we'll talk about today. Really happy to have

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her here. Kathy, thanks so much for joining us.

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I'm glad to have you. Thank you, Ed. I'm happy

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to be here too. It's been a long time since we

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saw each other on the job. On surveillance. Exactly.

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Last time we worked together, we were doing surveillance

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in Los Angeles. That's right. So, you know, since

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you retired, you're doing something really cool

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that's still involved with wildlife conservation.

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Just tell us a little bit about what you're doing

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now with Marine Mammals. Yeah, I volunteer for

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the Marine Mammal Center. I've been there for

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nine years and it's a wonderful nonprofit that

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our rescue range is from the Oregon border down

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to Santa Barbara. And we are involved in the

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rescue, rehab and release of all the marine mammals

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that we have along our California coast. And

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a lot of different things happen to them and

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we learn from them too. I was telling you earlier,

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they're sentinels of the sea. They're telling

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us what's going on out in our oceans. And we

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have our main research hospital up in South Salido,

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which is just an amazing place. If you're ever

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up there, they have guided tours, and it's pretty

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amazing. You can see all the animals that we're

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rehabbing. My facility's in Morro Bay. We're

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a satellite ER hospital basically, and we do

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a little bit of settling of the animals, and

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they eventually make it up to our main hospital.

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That is awesome. I love how so many people who

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are involved in our profession, you know, they

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they retire from conservation law enforcement

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and then they go do something else related to

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conservation. It's just in our blood, I think,

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you know. It is. And what I liked about this,

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it was completely different. I didn't get to

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work very closely with pinnipeds during our investigations.

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And it's interesting to learn about these seals

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and sea lions and sea otters and. They're pretty

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amazing critters, and we really try to keep them

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around for the future. The other thing I love

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about you, Kathy, is you're a second -generation

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game warden. Your dad was a game warden for the

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California Department of Fish and Game. Yes.

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And now your daughter is also a game warden.

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Yes, she is. Which is just incredible. You had

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three generations of... Very proud mama. Yeah,

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that's very cool. So let's talk a little bit

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about your career. I mentioned you were a uniformed

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game warden for a while, but you ended your career

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as a plainclothes officer, a lieutenant overseeing

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the special operations unit. We've had other

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guests on who've worked for California SOU. Savannah,

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our great plant case that we had. Yay, Savannah,

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in season one. But can you tell us a little bit

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about, you know, give us a short description

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of what SOU was like when you were working there

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and As the leader of that unit, how did it operate?

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Well, I think I was there at a good time. Our

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state budget was healthy. During the 12 years

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that I was on special ops full time, we had anywhere

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from 10 to 11 officers on the team. And that

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was the unique thing about our special ops is

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we worked as a team. We were pretty much doing

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the investigations and surveillances and the

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covert work as a team. So a team of like 10 and

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12 people, that's a big team. It is. That's unusual.

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Most states might have a plainclothes unit or

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a special operations unit, but they probably

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don't have 10 or 12 officers. In that setup,

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were you guys working always together? Or would

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you split off and work on your own cases? How

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did that work? We usually were together. Sometimes

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we would split the team if we had a couple of

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investigations going on simultaneous. We always

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had several cases going on. But using personnel

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correctly, time management, sometimes if we had

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enough people to go and do a surveillance, We

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would split the team. We would try to work a

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couple cases at a time. But for the most part,

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we were together most of the time, which required

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a lot of good people skills because you're basically

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living with your team. And I have to say, during

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my career as a special agent with US Fish and

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Wildlife based in LA, I had a lot of opportunities

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to work with you specifically and your team.

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And I was always extremely impressed with the

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quality of I don't know, law enforcement professionalism

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among your specific team of wardens. And one

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of the things I was always impressed by was your

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skill at what I call rolling surveillance, which

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is you're following somebody who's on the move.

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And you guys were invisible. You were extremely

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skilled at that technique. And do you think that

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just came from working together for so long,

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or did you specifically train to do that and

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constantly train? I think both, Ed. I was fortunate

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to have the same core team for almost a decade.

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We would have some wardens come and go for various

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reasons. It's really hard on your personal life.

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You're on the road all the time. You're living

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out of your van or your truck. It's not always

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glamorous. But I had the same core team, and

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we could finish each other's sentences. That's

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how close we were. We focused on people's strengths

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and what they knew how to do well. And we just

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knew how to operate. So when we went into surveillance

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mode, it was like a dance. I mean, it was just

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something we were used to. The team was very

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good at it. We were very successful. And there's

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strength in numbers when it comes to surveillance.

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And I do understand that it's a huge challenge

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for other states. Because they don't have a team

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that big you can still do really good surveillance

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with a handful of people but Probably more short

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-term and it is a lot more challenging and to

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you know to its In a state like California where

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you have very dense urban and you know situations

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neighborhoods And you also have extreme remote

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open areas The skill set or the techniques that

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you use on a rolling surveillance in a city like

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Los Angeles or San Francisco, it's very different

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than how you run it if you're out along the coast,

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you know, a single two lane highway along the

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coast or in the, you know, back country. And

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so it's not just a single skill set. It's like

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multiple skill sets within a skill set, right?

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We are always having to figure out. And when

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a lot of times we'd start in a rural environment

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and we'd have to use a certain technique for

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rural environments, which is the most challenging

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surveillance you can put a team into. And then

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we would roll into a large urban, just like what

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I drove in yesterday, the traffic of LA or San

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Francisco or Sacramento. And it's a completely

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different technique. It's a lot easier, but it's

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also traffic can be a nuisance and get in your

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way. It can trap you. It can trap you. When I

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worked in LA, we did a lot of surveillance in

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LA. So our team got pretty good at the urban

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surveillance. I think only once in my career

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did I do an extended one, and that was down to

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San Diego. So you're still on. you know, you're

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on I -5, so you got lots of lanes to kind of

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lose your cover team in. But yeah, real challenge.

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And your team was really excelled at it. I was

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always very impressed by that. Some of the, you

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know, you worked on different types of cases.

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And the other thing I noticed when I would work

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with you guys is you tended to focus on problem

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areas. Like, you would identify a problem area

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or species that was under a lot of pressure and

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you would focus your time and energy on that

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particular issue. Which, you know, a uniformed

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warden wouldn't necessarily have time to do that

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because they have patrol duties and all kinds

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of other things, right? It's a different life.

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Yeah, it's a different life and it's a hardcore

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group of people. It's a very hardcore group of

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people. One of the species that your unit worked

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on a lot during your time was a marine species

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called abalone, which my listeners in South Africa

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will know that as abalone. That's what they call

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it, abalone. But same critter. Can you tell us

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a little bit, what is abalone? Where is it found?

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And why was it a species of concern when you

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were working? What's its current situation? What

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is it about the Sabaloni anyway? It's an amazing

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species. It's not cute and fuzzy, like working

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bears or deer or anything, bobcat. But it's such

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an important resource to California. And the

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North Coast of California was one of the last

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viable red populations, red abalone populations

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in the entire world. You know, there's not abalone

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spread out all over the world. You've got South

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Africa, you've got New Zealand, British Columbia,

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California, little bits of Oregon and Mexico,

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and that's pretty much it. Yeah, and it's not

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the entire coastlines either, right? Like South

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Africa, it's pretty much limited to the Western

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Cape there, and California, it's more northern,

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right? Well, it does, you know, we do have populations

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down in the Channel Islands, which is off the

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coast of Santa Barbara, L .A., Ventura. And then

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it goes down into Mexico and this type of species

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changes. So, yes, but the North Coast is where

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the red abalone were. And the red abalone are

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one of the largest abalone in the world. And

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what is it, though, like an abalone? What kind

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of animal is this? It's a marine snail. I wish

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I could describe it as a little more flattering,

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but it's a marine snail. And their shells are

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beautiful. The entire side of their shells are

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beautiful, green, blue, iridescent. And a lot

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of times, they're made into jewelry, and they're

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very decorative. That is just a byproduct of

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the abalone. The target is for the meat. It's

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a delicacy. It's caught up in the whole traditional

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Chinese medicine arena. Aphrodisiac, considered

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an aphrodisiac, and also gives status to those

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who are capable. And to harvest them... Yeah,

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what's the process for harvesting? It's mostly

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diving. We used to have a commercial industry

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in California, and there was about 84 dive boats

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permitted. And they would use hookah gear, which

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is surface air supplied with hoses, with the

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big regulators, masks type things. And they would

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harvest. We had to close the season in 1997 because

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of the collapse of the stock, which was only

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allowed between the Farallon Islands and the

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Channel Islands. The North Coast was always protected

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with just sport take only. So on a very minus

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tide, one who is not a diver could go out and

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rock pick because they're exposed. I mean, they're

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a snail. They're adhered to the rocks. They can

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move. They're very slow. I could catch it. Most

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people would dive. And the regulations were absolutely

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no scuba. It was only breath hold, free diving

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only. And the reason behind that was that limits

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the depths that people can go to harvest. And

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the deep water stocks were considered our refuge

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stocks. So the commercial trade, though, was

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shut down in the 90s. So all that was left really

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was what you called a sport, which would be you

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or me could get some type of fishing license

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to go out and collect, and that would be using

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this breath holding technique. And presumably

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that was for my own use, like I'm going to eat

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this or I'm going to eat it. So at that point,

00:14:54.539 --> 00:14:59.639
was commercial completely illegal? Yes. So after

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the close of the 84 to 100 permitted, Commercial

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divers, it was just sport take. And no fish or

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game taken under a sport fishing license or a

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hunting license can be legally sold. Gotcha.

00:15:17.970 --> 00:15:20.990
OK. So commercialization is prohibited under

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sport take of any species. Interesting. You mentioned

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there's a couple of interesting things about

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these snails, these abalone. When they're out

00:15:32.750 --> 00:15:35.279
there, what are they eating? What is an abalone?

00:15:36.159 --> 00:15:40.879
Solely kelp, and specifically bull kelp. And

00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:43.919
for people who don't know, off the coast of California,

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there are huge kelp beds. Kelp forests is actually

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what they're called. Habitat to a lot of different

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species, but interesting. OK, so they eat exclusively

00:15:53.879 --> 00:16:01.559
kelp. And you mentioned that they're important

00:16:01.559 --> 00:16:04.419
kind of in the for different reasons, for food,

00:16:04.980 --> 00:16:07.580
Chinese medicine, traditional medicine, all these

00:16:07.580 --> 00:16:08.980
other things you mentioned. I didn't even know

00:16:08.980 --> 00:16:13.679
they were used as an aphrodisiac. Is there a

00:16:13.679 --> 00:16:16.500
temptation to commercialize abalone? They're

00:16:16.500 --> 00:16:19.899
so highly sought after on the black market, Ed.

00:16:19.899 --> 00:16:23.879
Why, though? Just for those reasons I told you,

00:16:24.120 --> 00:16:31.139
the beliefs. There are delicacy, too. They taste

00:16:31.139 --> 00:16:33.559
amazing. You asked me earlier what abalone tastes

00:16:33.559 --> 00:16:37.580
like. Abalone tastes like abalone. I can't even

00:16:37.580 --> 00:16:40.580
compare it to anything else. I mean, I used to

00:16:40.580 --> 00:16:43.179
die for abalone. I enjoyed it thoroughly and

00:16:43.179 --> 00:16:49.720
one of my favorite foods. But they just highly

00:16:49.720 --> 00:16:55.120
sought after, on the black market, one red abalone

00:16:55.120 --> 00:17:01.179
can sell for $100. Wow. in the city or Chinatown

00:17:01.179 --> 00:17:04.460
or wherever they happen to take them. So the

00:17:04.460 --> 00:17:07.259
temptation is there for... Monetary reasons.

00:17:07.420 --> 00:17:10.619
To people to poach these abalone in high numbers,

00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:13.880
I assume, too, right? Yes. With the sport fishery,

00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:16.059
I assume there's a limit on how many... Very

00:17:16.059 --> 00:17:19.119
highly regulated. I mean, before we had to end

00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:22.660
up closing the sport season in 2018, and we'll

00:17:22.660 --> 00:17:26.309
talk about those reasons later, but... I think

00:17:26.309 --> 00:17:29.150
it was down to three abalone a day and eight

00:17:29.150 --> 00:17:31.829
annually. That's what you could take if you were

00:17:31.829 --> 00:17:34.049
a sport fisherman. Through the years that I was

00:17:34.049 --> 00:17:39.369
working abalone cases, it just became more conservative

00:17:39.369 --> 00:17:44.049
with regulations as the time went on because

00:17:44.049 --> 00:17:47.009
they weren't doing very well. Yeah, so it became

00:17:47.009 --> 00:17:48.890
kind of an important issue for the California

00:17:48.890 --> 00:17:55.240
Department of Fish and Wildlife. It was a one

00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:59.920
of the focused species that they wanted us to

00:17:59.920 --> 00:18:03.200
work on, that and sturgeon and some other species,

00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:05.839
but abalone was pretty much at the top of the

00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:08.640
list. It's kind of a perfect example of how law

00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:13.460
enforcement can play a role in either slowing,

00:18:13.740 --> 00:18:16.940
stopping, or reversing the decline of certain

00:18:16.940 --> 00:18:20.140
species. We've seen it again and again on from

00:18:20.140 --> 00:18:22.940
stories from people who come talk to us on this

00:18:22.940 --> 00:18:26.420
podcast about how they got involved in protecting

00:18:26.420 --> 00:18:29.500
highly endangered species. And it really illustrates,

00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:33.200
I think, the role of law enforcement in stopping

00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:35.599
the decline or trying to stop the decline in

00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:39.819
certain species. And your unit certainly has

00:18:39.819 --> 00:18:42.960
some fascinating cases that they got into with

00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:45.000
regard to abalone, which we're going to talk

00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:47.940
about a little bit. One of the things I think

00:18:47.940 --> 00:18:52.740
you mentioned to me is Abalone is kind of known

00:18:52.740 --> 00:18:56.640
as, what do they call it? It's called Pacific

00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:00.019
gold. That's how valuable it is, right? Pacific

00:19:00.019 --> 00:19:03.660
gold. They would go and take a withdrawal from

00:19:03.660 --> 00:19:07.039
the Bank of the Pacific. A withdrawal that does

00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:08.920
not earn a lot of interest, right? Because it's

00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:11.900
not growing itself. OK, so let's talk about one

00:19:11.900 --> 00:19:15.269
of these cases a little bit. You have one you

00:19:15.269 --> 00:19:17.230
wanted to talk about this kind of an interesting

00:19:17.230 --> 00:19:20.450
illustration. There was a particular case you

00:19:20.450 --> 00:19:23.569
worked on related. A couple of individuals were

00:19:23.569 --> 00:19:26.230
involved in abalone poaching for commercial purposes.

00:19:27.009 --> 00:19:28.750
What was that case? Tell us a little bit about

00:19:28.750 --> 00:19:31.809
how that case started and how you got onto it.

00:19:34.819 --> 00:19:38.400
So the team, we travel all over the United States.

00:19:38.680 --> 00:19:41.119
I mean, the United States, well, that too. But

00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:43.319
mostly California. We're responsible for all

00:19:43.319 --> 00:19:47.019
the illegal commercial cases throughout the state.

00:19:47.079 --> 00:19:49.559
So we're on the road a lot. We're gone a lot.

00:19:50.339 --> 00:19:53.220
And sometimes we would take a break, like in

00:19:53.220 --> 00:19:55.700
December, for a couple of weeks around the holidays.

00:19:55.799 --> 00:20:00.240
And we were all on break, planning to be off

00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:02.380
for a couple of weeks, which was much needed.

00:20:03.710 --> 00:20:07.190
And all of us start getting phone calls on our

00:20:07.190 --> 00:20:11.450
state phones in our home offices one night that

00:20:11.450 --> 00:20:14.390
we've received some information. This was from

00:20:14.390 --> 00:20:19.990
the lieutenant at the time. Pretty specific information

00:20:19.990 --> 00:20:23.789
that an informant had given to one of our uniformed

00:20:23.789 --> 00:20:26.609
officers, which, by the way, we worked very close

00:20:26.609 --> 00:20:28.549
with our uniform officers. They were the boots

00:20:28.549 --> 00:20:29.970
on the ground. They're the ones that knew what

00:20:29.970 --> 00:20:33.329
was happening in their district. most of our

00:20:33.329 --> 00:20:36.710
amazing information from them and such as this

00:20:36.710 --> 00:20:39.109
case. Yeah, I think those special units, these

00:20:39.109 --> 00:20:41.490
special investigative units or special operations

00:20:41.490 --> 00:20:45.829
units, if they don't work seamlessly with the

00:20:45.829 --> 00:20:48.809
more routine, like patrol oriented or routine

00:20:48.809 --> 00:20:53.130
investigative oriented officers, they are just

00:20:53.130 --> 00:20:55.250
they're hamstringing themselves, right? Absolutely

00:20:55.250 --> 00:21:00.170
hamstringing yourself. You're cutting off an

00:21:00.170 --> 00:21:04.759
amazing resource that Why? I mean, so we worked

00:21:04.759 --> 00:21:09.579
very close with our uniform squads in the areas

00:21:09.579 --> 00:21:11.619
wherever we were working. Well, it led to a tip

00:21:11.619 --> 00:21:15.200
on this case, right? It did. This warden got

00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:18.220
a very specific tip that this gentleman named

00:21:18.220 --> 00:21:23.740
John had been running up to the North Coast on

00:21:23.740 --> 00:21:28.220
a regular basis, poaching abalone and coming

00:21:28.220 --> 00:21:34.200
back and selling them. And his name did not ring

00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:36.559
a bell to any of us. It was like, whoa, he's

00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:39.759
not on our radar, but that's some very specific

00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:42.859
information. And plus he's leaving within the

00:21:42.859 --> 00:21:47.180
next few days again. It was obviously, it was

00:21:47.180 --> 00:21:49.140
definitely a woman scorned that gave us that

00:21:49.140 --> 00:21:51.180
information. But hey, we're rolling with it.

00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:53.980
Some of the best tips come from, we've always

00:21:53.980 --> 00:21:57.200
said, ex -wives, ex -girlfriends, ex -boyfriends,

00:21:57.380 --> 00:21:59.660
ex -husbands. We'll give you the best tips. So

00:21:59.660 --> 00:22:03.019
we get this call. It's dark. It's in the evening.

00:22:04.279 --> 00:22:08.950
And we are all rolling. And in Santa Cruz, this

00:22:08.950 --> 00:22:11.210
is in Santa Cruz, California, where it's occurring.

00:22:11.829 --> 00:22:14.809
And our team lives all over. Because we come

00:22:14.809 --> 00:22:17.690
together every week, and we don't know where

00:22:17.690 --> 00:22:20.509
we're ever going to be. I mean, it depends on

00:22:20.509 --> 00:22:22.730
the information I get, and I'll put out what's

00:22:22.730 --> 00:22:24.990
called the week ahead. This is where we're planning

00:22:24.990 --> 00:22:29.630
on doing. And our motto that we lived and died

00:22:29.630 --> 00:22:33.430
by was plan on doing what you didn't plan on

00:22:33.430 --> 00:22:36.839
doing. That was how we lived. And this was a

00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:39.359
perfect example. So we are rolling to Santa Cruz,

00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:41.880
California. We're all there the next morning.

00:22:42.779 --> 00:22:45.779
And we're briefing on the information that we

00:22:45.779 --> 00:22:49.279
have. And we know what to do. We know, OK, we

00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:52.339
need to set up our surveillance team. So I was

00:22:52.339 --> 00:22:55.299
the one that was point on the suspect's house.

00:22:55.700 --> 00:22:58.259
And the rest of the team is just off in the wind.

00:22:58.380 --> 00:23:02.049
And we're communicating on direct channels. And

00:23:02.049 --> 00:23:04.150
for the first couple hours, I was just reporting

00:23:04.150 --> 00:23:06.569
on the sheer boredom, because nothing was going

00:23:06.569 --> 00:23:12.289
on, which is typical. And then, a couple hours

00:23:12.289 --> 00:23:16.190
later, this red van pulls into the driveway.

00:23:17.289 --> 00:23:19.849
This John, who we identify later as John, gets

00:23:19.849 --> 00:23:24.990
out, opens a hatch, starts covering the back

00:23:24.990 --> 00:23:30.849
hatch with tarps, puts in a duffel bag, backpack.

00:23:31.240 --> 00:23:34.500
And he jumps in and he takes off. So now we're

00:23:34.500 --> 00:23:36.680
going to do what we do well. We're going to follow

00:23:36.680 --> 00:23:39.119
this guy. We're thinking we're just following

00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:43.920
John. Well, he goes into old Santa Cruz, pulls

00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:46.980
up to a house, and by this time we have another

00:23:46.980 --> 00:23:50.160
one of our officers on point. Point person's

00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:52.319
not always the same person. It's wherever you

00:23:52.319 --> 00:23:57.720
end up. And he's like, wow, this place looks

00:23:57.720 --> 00:24:01.140
really familiar. John was just sitting in the

00:24:01.140 --> 00:24:09.099
van and out walks Joel, and we recognized Joel,

00:24:10.019 --> 00:24:15.940
carrying two scuba tanks. And Joel Roberts was

00:24:15.940 --> 00:24:22.539
a ex -commercial abalone diver, very famous.

00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:29.890
Him and his partner had the fishing vessel Deeper

00:24:29.890 --> 00:24:32.970
Blue. They were infamous for just being these

00:24:32.970 --> 00:24:35.190
good -looking blonde surfers, and they worked

00:24:35.190 --> 00:24:38.250
hard, and they dove the Farallon Islands, which

00:24:38.250 --> 00:24:40.450
is the breeding ground of the Great White. So

00:24:40.450 --> 00:24:43.589
they were kind of glorified in what they did.

00:24:43.890 --> 00:24:46.589
They were abalone cowboys. Yeah, they were. They

00:24:46.589 --> 00:24:49.009
were. And they were both really into surfing,

00:24:49.009 --> 00:24:51.750
and they also used their boat out at Mavericks

00:24:51.750 --> 00:24:58.960
to tow some of the famous surfers out. So it

00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:03.880
was like, oh my gosh. And we had heard rumblings.

00:25:04.819 --> 00:25:08.319
And this is three years after the close of the

00:25:08.319 --> 00:25:14.359
commercial season. Early 2000s. Early 2000. So

00:25:14.359 --> 00:25:19.180
we're like, OK, this is really getting interesting.

00:25:21.539 --> 00:25:25.299
So Joel jumps in the van. And they start heading

00:25:25.299 --> 00:25:27.980
north. And sure enough, we're immediately going

00:25:27.980 --> 00:25:30.720
up. We're in Santa Cruz. So next thing we know,

00:25:30.759 --> 00:25:35.140
we're headed towards Sonoma County. Well, after

00:25:35.140 --> 00:25:41.859
we get into the San Francisco area, they make

00:25:41.859 --> 00:25:44.400
this left turn onto Gary Boulevard, which is

00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:47.019
kind of the Sunset District and just not where

00:25:47.019 --> 00:25:49.200
you would dive for abalone. We're like, OK, something's

00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:55.200
going on here. pulls in and parks next to this

00:25:55.200 --> 00:25:59.099
rickety old storage shack that had double doors

00:25:59.099 --> 00:26:02.880
on it and locked with a hasp. He gets out of

00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:05.599
the car and he looks left and right and he keys

00:26:05.599 --> 00:26:08.119
himself in and he leaves it ajar and one of our

00:26:08.119 --> 00:26:10.420
other officers was in a great point position

00:26:10.420 --> 00:26:14.059
and he could see that he opens a big chest freezer.

00:26:14.140 --> 00:26:18.359
So we know this is a cold storage area. So we

00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:20.279
think, okay, this is really getting interesting.

00:26:21.660 --> 00:26:25.240
Elsie comes out with five gallon bucket. So jumps

00:26:25.240 --> 00:26:27.619
back in the car, goes to a dive shop in Marin

00:26:27.619 --> 00:26:32.319
County, gets two airfields in his tanks. And

00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:35.279
we're like, OK, let's go. And we get into Sonoma

00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:39.519
County, stop at Kmart. Are those even open anymore?

00:26:39.519 --> 00:26:44.019
Yeah, Kmart's gone. Come out with these four

00:26:44.019 --> 00:26:47.720
huge totes. So we know they're serious. Yeah,

00:26:47.740 --> 00:26:50.079
this tip you got's looking pretty good. It's

00:26:50.079 --> 00:26:52.880
looking really good. So we're kind of ready to

00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:56.039
roll. And they just go north a little ways and

00:26:56.039 --> 00:26:59.640
pull into Motel 6, get their room, key themselves

00:26:59.640 --> 00:27:05.599
into room 28, and shut the blinds. There we sit.

00:27:07.859 --> 00:27:11.160
That's the nature, the hurry up and wait, the

00:27:11.160 --> 00:27:14.480
boredom. You've got to stick with it. You know

00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:16.380
what's going to happen. You're always going to

00:27:16.380 --> 00:27:18.700
have somebody on point. You might switch people

00:27:18.700 --> 00:27:23.329
out. Point people have to sleep. That was another

00:27:23.329 --> 00:27:26.150
one of our models. We can sleep when we're dead

00:27:26.150 --> 00:27:31.230
So we watched it and watched it and watched it

00:27:31.230 --> 00:27:35.250
and And we also knew unfortunately that Joel

00:27:35.250 --> 00:27:39.109
had a very serious heroin addiction So we knew

00:27:39.109 --> 00:27:42.650
that this was probably a lot that fueled his

00:27:42.650 --> 00:27:45.470
activities. So he may be involved in abalone

00:27:45.470 --> 00:27:48.519
poaching to make money for his drug habit. Yes.

00:27:48.819 --> 00:27:51.099
Wasn't there another connection Joel had to,

00:27:51.099 --> 00:27:53.099
like, abalone conservation or something like

00:27:53.099 --> 00:27:55.019
that? Did you know about that at the time? Yes,

00:27:55.019 --> 00:27:59.440
we did know about this. He was selected to be

00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:02.720
on the abalone advisory committee of the state

00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:05.259
of California while he was a diver. And I think

00:28:05.259 --> 00:28:09.579
he still was on it after the commercial season

00:28:09.579 --> 00:28:12.119
closed, that it was a group of people from all

00:28:12.119 --> 00:28:16.519
different walks of all things abalone. that made

00:28:16.519 --> 00:28:20.579
suggestions on how to enhance the populations,

00:28:20.779 --> 00:28:24.160
how to spend the landing tax from the commercial

00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:28.180
industry wisely to help enhance the populations.

00:28:28.619 --> 00:28:34.680
And it was a conservation type thing to help

00:28:34.680 --> 00:28:38.079
these populations because it's always struggled.

00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:41.559
Unbelievable. Because they're so slow -growing,

00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:43.460
did we even talk about that? No, we didn't talk

00:28:43.460 --> 00:28:44.880
about their growth pattern. They're a very slow

00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:48.460
-growing creature. They're a broadcast spawner,

00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:52.119
which means the eggs in the sperm are released

00:28:52.119 --> 00:28:55.480
into the water column, and they have to be in

00:28:55.480 --> 00:28:58.779
very close proximity to have a successful propagation.

00:29:00.119 --> 00:29:03.740
So everything about abalone makes their populations

00:29:03.740 --> 00:29:08.849
very fragile. Right. So that was a slap in the

00:29:08.849 --> 00:29:12.750
face to us. That was like, really? But also a

00:29:12.750 --> 00:29:15.769
motivator, because you get somebody who you suspect

00:29:15.769 --> 00:29:20.470
is violating, who's also... Taking full advantage.

00:29:20.470 --> 00:29:22.930
Yeah, taking full advantage. They're on a conservation

00:29:22.930 --> 00:29:24.970
advisory committee. They're holding themselves

00:29:24.970 --> 00:29:27.630
out as an abalone conservationist. And you know

00:29:27.630 --> 00:29:30.009
they're violating. That's a motivator for a law

00:29:30.009 --> 00:29:32.130
enforcement officer. That person would have gone

00:29:32.130 --> 00:29:34.930
to the top of my list. Yes. And he was definitely

00:29:34.930 --> 00:29:37.470
on the top of our list as he walked out of his

00:29:37.470 --> 00:29:40.130
door with dive tanks in his hands. So you have

00:29:40.130 --> 00:29:41.829
to sit on them now because they're at the hotel.

00:29:41.890 --> 00:29:44.309
But eventually, they do go out and poach, right?

00:29:44.390 --> 00:29:49.160
Yeah, a little after midnight. door open, they

00:29:49.160 --> 00:29:52.440
quickly walk out, jump in the van. And, you know,

00:29:52.440 --> 00:29:54.059
we wanted to be real careful because it could

00:29:54.059 --> 00:29:57.140
have been a junk food run, you know, who knows?

00:29:57.660 --> 00:30:01.160
So we're very careful on our surveillance techniques

00:30:01.160 --> 00:30:06.119
and knowing who he is and how close he worked

00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:10.019
with fish and wildlife and being a commercial

00:30:10.019 --> 00:30:13.859
diver. This guy's good at what he does, right?

00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:17.349
So he was going to be an extreme challenge. to

00:30:17.349 --> 00:30:20.849
stay with undetected. Right. He's got a lot to

00:30:20.849 --> 00:30:25.210
lose. So we start headed to the coast and we

00:30:25.210 --> 00:30:29.410
realize once he gets to our normal route to,

00:30:29.410 --> 00:30:32.990
you know, the coastal beaches of Sonoma County,

00:30:33.690 --> 00:30:37.369
we know we're on we're on a run. So we're being

00:30:37.369 --> 00:30:40.470
very careful because we're on lonely Highway

00:30:40.470 --> 00:30:43.769
one in the middle of the night. And that is a

00:30:43.769 --> 00:30:47.529
surveillance team's nightmare. headlights are

00:30:47.529 --> 00:30:50.710
seen for miles. We are the only ones out there

00:30:50.710 --> 00:30:55.049
unusual with this guy that is just a radar detector

00:30:55.049 --> 00:30:59.009
for surveillance. So it was a huge challenge.

00:30:59.009 --> 00:31:03.049
So we worked our techniques the way we do. Don't

00:31:03.049 --> 00:31:05.029
have to really go into all that detail. Don't

00:31:05.029 --> 00:31:11.789
reveal secrets. Um, so we end up, we end up losing

00:31:11.789 --> 00:31:16.279
his lights. So we suspected that he had stopped

00:31:16.279 --> 00:31:18.660
in this particular area. It's called Fisk Mill,

00:31:18.980 --> 00:31:21.799
if anybody's familiar with Sonoma County. And

00:31:21.799 --> 00:31:25.559
this whole coastline is just epic dive areas.

00:31:25.619 --> 00:31:28.160
Okay. So these guys aren't going on boats. They

00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:29.759
go down to the beach and they take their dive

00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:31.819
gear straight out into the water. Right. Okay.

00:31:31.819 --> 00:31:33.980
And they can find an abalone right there. Oh

00:31:33.980 --> 00:31:36.500
yeah. Most abalone are very close. Okay. Close

00:31:36.500 --> 00:31:38.539
to the surface. That's why rock pickers can get

00:31:38.539 --> 00:31:45.029
them at a low tide. At a low tide. I happen to

00:31:45.029 --> 00:31:48.410
be right behind him at the moment in the area

00:31:48.410 --> 00:31:50.329
that we think they went. I think they go into

00:31:50.329 --> 00:31:52.529
the Fisk Mill parking lot, which is on the west

00:31:52.529 --> 00:31:55.970
side of Highway 1, and maybe he's going to get

00:31:55.970 --> 00:31:59.890
dropped off. So I go up this other road, Cruise

00:31:59.890 --> 00:32:03.549
Ranch Road, very windy, beautiful dirt road with

00:32:03.549 --> 00:32:07.349
some cabins, seasonal cabins up there, to get

00:32:07.349 --> 00:32:09.450
a vantage, to turn out and get a vantage with

00:32:09.450 --> 00:32:11.509
night vision, to see if he's in this parking

00:32:11.509 --> 00:32:15.470
lot. And I come around a corner, not too far

00:32:15.470 --> 00:32:19.230
off of Highway 1, and there's the van. Hatch

00:32:19.230 --> 00:32:23.630
open. Joel at the back of it, holding a wetsuit.

00:32:23.630 --> 00:32:28.170
Oh, shit. Trying to sneak around the side of

00:32:28.170 --> 00:32:32.950
the van and close the hatch so whoever this person

00:32:32.950 --> 00:32:37.349
is in this van won't see him. So I just told

00:32:37.349 --> 00:32:39.509
the crew, I says, hey, here he is. They're up

00:32:39.509 --> 00:32:45.400
here. I'm out of it. My van is toasty. So I'm

00:32:45.400 --> 00:32:49.039
going to keep going and and just get out of this

00:32:49.039 --> 00:32:52.119
surveillance for right now. And I went up and

00:32:52.119 --> 00:32:55.680
pulled into a remote driveway from a summer cabin

00:32:55.680 --> 00:32:59.460
that was unoccupied. So what did he do? Like,

00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:01.740
did he then give up for the night because he'd

00:33:01.740 --> 00:33:05.240
been seen by either? I assume he didn't. I think

00:33:05.240 --> 00:33:07.339
you were a cop at that point or a warden. I don't

00:33:07.339 --> 00:33:10.519
think he thought fishing game, but some citizen

00:33:10.519 --> 00:33:15.619
saw him with a wetsuit at one o 'clock in the

00:33:15.619 --> 00:33:19.240
morning, you know, at the back of a hatch of

00:33:19.240 --> 00:33:21.220
across the street from one of the best dive areas

00:33:21.220 --> 00:33:24.359
on the Sonoma coast. Did he give up then that

00:33:24.359 --> 00:33:28.640
night or what did he do? He did. So we have our

00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:32.819
team spread out, tucked in north and south and

00:33:33.539 --> 00:33:36.619
Within five minutes, the team sees him headed

00:33:36.619 --> 00:33:38.980
southbound. And they could tell there was still

00:33:38.980 --> 00:33:42.759
two people in the car. Our officers were able

00:33:42.759 --> 00:33:46.339
to see that when they drove by. So we're like,

00:33:46.460 --> 00:33:50.220
OK, maybe he's going to go somewhere else because

00:33:50.220 --> 00:33:54.160
there's synomachosis is big. Maybe he's going

00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:57.099
to check another place down south. So we super

00:33:57.099 --> 00:34:01.480
loose tail all the way into Jenner, all the way

00:34:01.480 --> 00:34:07.980
into Gurnville, back into Petaluma, back into

00:34:07.980 --> 00:34:14.280
room 28 at the Motel 6. And now it's like, I

00:34:14.280 --> 00:34:16.679
don't know. The exciting world of law enforcement.

00:34:17.119 --> 00:34:19.000
Yeah, exciting world of a game warden in SMU.

00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:22.579
Yeah, it's very, you know, it's dynamic and flattering.

00:34:23.380 --> 00:34:29.050
Yeah, it can be just... Right. So... But he doesn't

00:34:29.050 --> 00:34:32.050
give up now. Like a good crook would be like,

00:34:32.050 --> 00:34:35.309
Oh, I've been seen. I better not, but no, he's,

00:34:35.389 --> 00:34:37.869
he's out there to get abalone and earn money.

00:34:37.969 --> 00:34:40.570
What, what would be eventually? He was probably

00:34:40.570 --> 00:34:42.710
questioning himself. Who knows? I'd love to have

00:34:42.710 --> 00:34:46.150
been a fly on the wall in that room 28, but,

00:34:46.250 --> 00:34:51.349
um, so we don't know if he's going to try a daytime

00:34:51.349 --> 00:34:55.650
run. It's December, which is the sports season's

00:34:55.650 --> 00:34:58.679
closed. So cover of darkness is going to be the

00:34:58.679 --> 00:35:01.380
safest demo. There's no legal abalone technique.

00:35:02.380 --> 00:35:09.679
Okay. So here we go. So we made the decision

00:35:09.679 --> 00:35:13.000
the least tired person was going to take point

00:35:13.000 --> 00:35:16.380
and everybody else and one other person would

00:35:16.380 --> 00:35:18.880
stay there and everybody else went in. They're

00:35:18.880 --> 00:35:22.480
always sleazy motels into the sleazy motel across

00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:24.179
the street to try to get some sleep because we

00:35:24.179 --> 00:35:30.760
don't know what he's going to do. Right. So that's

00:35:30.760 --> 00:35:35.639
four in the morning, 11 o 'clock that night.

00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:41.280
The door opens and we start this all over again.

00:35:41.500 --> 00:35:44.079
And, you know, we have rotated people through

00:35:44.079 --> 00:35:47.780
the hotel rooms trying to get some sleep and

00:35:47.780 --> 00:35:53.059
we're doing pretty good now. So jump in the they

00:35:53.059 --> 00:35:55.119
jump in their van and they take off and, you

00:35:55.119 --> 00:35:58.500
know, When something doesn't work, you've got

00:35:58.500 --> 00:36:02.199
it. You've got to do something different So we

00:36:02.199 --> 00:36:06.960
use another technique You know John was his lookout

00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:09.719
so that's next to impossible to actually watch

00:36:09.719 --> 00:36:12.280
him dive, right? I was gonna say even with night

00:36:12.280 --> 00:36:14.579
vision got a driver's dropping him off right

00:36:14.579 --> 00:36:17.179
gonna keep an eye out Yeah, so that's that's

00:36:17.179 --> 00:36:20.880
not gonna work So we're like, okay, we have to

00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:25.460
seal him in or at least be able to prove that

00:36:25.460 --> 00:36:29.420
if he does harvest that he know which county

00:36:29.420 --> 00:36:32.539
to prosecute him in. Right. So since my van was

00:36:32.539 --> 00:36:35.639
toasty, I just flew ahead of everybody and got

00:36:35.639 --> 00:36:38.139
to the Sonoma Mendocino County line in the little

00:36:38.139 --> 00:36:41.019
town of Gualala, which is an amazing little town.

00:36:41.820 --> 00:36:44.440
Backed my van in a bunch, you know, by the grocery

00:36:44.440 --> 00:36:48.820
store and gas station and just kind of secreted

00:36:48.820 --> 00:36:52.420
myself there and just watch that road because

00:36:52.840 --> 00:36:55.820
if he does cross into Mendocino, we need to know

00:36:55.820 --> 00:37:01.900
that. So he never did. And then we had our Southern

00:37:01.900 --> 00:37:05.539
units just wait in Jenner. I mean, all spread

00:37:05.539 --> 00:37:10.460
out, hidden. And probably about seven in the

00:37:10.460 --> 00:37:13.440
morning, here they come, past our officers in

00:37:13.440 --> 00:37:17.320
Jenner. So we could say they stayed in Sonoma

00:37:17.320 --> 00:37:21.179
County. Because on Highway 1, to get anywhere

00:37:21.179 --> 00:37:23.750
else, into Mendocino County, you'd have to go

00:37:23.750 --> 00:37:26.869
all the way back into Highway 101. Makes no sense.

00:37:27.150 --> 00:37:29.489
So you basically know that between 11 p .m. and

00:37:29.489 --> 00:37:32.670
7 a .m. they spent, they were out doing something.

00:37:32.730 --> 00:37:35.429
Yeah. In that county. In that county. Okay. How

00:37:35.429 --> 00:37:38.670
did you figure out what they were doing? So.

00:37:39.610 --> 00:37:42.829
This is crazy. When we get back to the motel,

00:37:43.369 --> 00:37:48.409
they go back upstairs. I walk by the back of

00:37:48.409 --> 00:37:51.760
the van, which by the way was a rental van. And

00:37:51.760 --> 00:37:55.559
that's another technique. They always rent vehicles.

00:37:55.780 --> 00:37:58.460
They don't always. They mostly poachers mostly

00:37:58.460 --> 00:38:01.559
rent vehicles because number one, if you run

00:38:01.559 --> 00:38:03.380
the plate, it doesn't come back registered to

00:38:03.380 --> 00:38:05.320
anybody in particular that you can identify.

00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:09.199
And number two, we have had huge success in vehicle

00:38:09.199 --> 00:38:12.019
forfeitures. They don't want their cars forfeited.

00:38:12.159 --> 00:38:14.900
So this is rented from rent a wreck. I swear

00:38:14.900 --> 00:38:19.099
to God it really was called that. And now I can

00:38:19.099 --> 00:38:21.840
see those four totes that were stacked inside

00:38:21.840 --> 00:38:24.639
each other, empty with all the lids in the top

00:38:24.639 --> 00:38:29.019
tote, all laid out side by side with a sleeping

00:38:29.019 --> 00:38:32.480
bag rolled over. Interesting. Thrown over it.

00:38:33.159 --> 00:38:37.420
And Joel's wet dive gear still in the back. So

00:38:37.420 --> 00:38:39.840
we're like, okay. Now, interesting. This is an

00:38:39.840 --> 00:38:43.019
interesting law enforcement point here. There's

00:38:43.019 --> 00:38:45.559
no reasonable expectation of privacy in a vehicle.

00:38:45.820 --> 00:38:47.980
that somebody can walk by and look in the window.

00:38:48.139 --> 00:38:49.659
Oh, absolutely. So you don't need a warrant to

00:38:49.659 --> 00:38:51.559
walk by a vehicle and look in the window and

00:38:51.559 --> 00:38:53.039
see. You're in a public place. Anybody can look

00:38:53.039 --> 00:38:55.800
in there. Exactly. You're right. No expectation

00:38:55.800 --> 00:38:58.739
of privacy. Yeah. OK. Interesting. Good. Yeah.

00:38:59.039 --> 00:39:00.760
Yeah. Classic. Great technique to use. Yeah.

00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:02.739
Yeah. We were lucky it didn't have tinted windows

00:39:02.739 --> 00:39:06.500
because we could see very well. Yeah. So a couple

00:39:06.500 --> 00:39:10.880
hours later, they come downstairs. I'm surprised

00:39:10.880 --> 00:39:13.380
they didn't head out right away, but probably

00:39:13.380 --> 00:39:18.519
needed a fix or something. They take off south,

00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:21.860
headed back towards San Francisco. And we're

00:39:21.860 --> 00:39:26.599
still being very conservative on our surveillance.

00:39:27.320 --> 00:39:30.000
And we're getting into more traffic, so it's

00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:33.800
easier. So we head over the Golden Gate Bridge.

00:39:34.579 --> 00:39:36.820
He makes a hard right into the Presidio. I don't

00:39:36.820 --> 00:39:40.780
know if you're familiar with San Francisco. And

00:39:40.780 --> 00:39:44.389
he starts doing cleanup maneuvers. Interesting.

00:39:44.769 --> 00:39:47.650
And clean up, by that you mean like counter surveillance,

00:39:47.829 --> 00:39:49.030
right? Counter surveillance. So he's looking

00:39:49.030 --> 00:39:52.449
to see if he's got a tail. So what sort of things

00:39:52.449 --> 00:39:53.789
would he do? Pulling over to the side of the

00:39:53.789 --> 00:39:57.210
road, pulling down into a dead end street and

00:39:57.210 --> 00:40:00.230
turning around and waiting and just watching

00:40:00.230 --> 00:40:06.349
everybody that's going by. And at this particular

00:40:06.349 --> 00:40:11.690
location, he was very close to that old Cold

00:40:11.690 --> 00:40:14.690
storage shed remember we talked about right so

00:40:14.690 --> 00:40:18.429
we think that he hadn't necessarily Picked up

00:40:18.429 --> 00:40:20.650
on our surveillance, but he was doing his counter

00:40:20.650 --> 00:40:22.389
surveillance because he was getting ready to

00:40:22.389 --> 00:40:30.889
land. Okay So they continue on and They start

00:40:30.889 --> 00:40:33.650
getting their back on Gary Boulevard headed towards

00:40:33.650 --> 00:40:36.250
26th Avenue, which is where this little shed

00:40:36.250 --> 00:40:41.840
is And all of a sudden The van stops in the middle

00:40:41.840 --> 00:40:43.360
of, I don't know if you're familiar with some

00:40:43.360 --> 00:40:45.539
of those San Francisco streets, but they are

00:40:45.539 --> 00:40:48.980
so busy and there's pedestrians everywhere. They

00:40:48.980 --> 00:40:51.619
stop in the middle of the street. Joel's passenger,

00:40:51.619 --> 00:40:57.039
he jumps out, runs across the street and starts

00:40:57.039 --> 00:41:00.280
walking down Gary Boulevard. And we had already,

00:41:00.340 --> 00:41:02.739
two of us had already parked our surveillance

00:41:02.739 --> 00:41:06.300
vehicles just a little bit to the west of where

00:41:06.300 --> 00:41:11.019
they, ahead of where they pulled over. Good timing.

00:41:11.579 --> 00:41:14.440
He walked right in front of our van. Wow. You

00:41:14.440 --> 00:41:19.960
know, head on a swivel, looking around. And we

00:41:19.960 --> 00:41:24.820
jump out, you know, we get geared up. Because

00:41:24.820 --> 00:41:29.000
at this point, we know what we're going to do.

00:41:29.099 --> 00:41:31.639
I should back up a little bit. The rest of the

00:41:31.639 --> 00:41:34.699
team stops John in the van. You make a traffic

00:41:34.699 --> 00:41:39.570
stop. Yes. OK. And that. Everything is right

00:41:39.570 --> 00:41:42.670
there. And John gives consent to get in the back.

00:41:42.869 --> 00:41:47.150
Wow. OK. And those totes are loaded. Loaded with

00:41:47.150 --> 00:41:49.690
abalone. And shucked abalone, too. Which is really

00:41:49.690 --> 00:41:52.329
unfortunate, because most of the time that we

00:41:52.329 --> 00:41:55.110
seize abalone in the shell, they can survive

00:41:55.110 --> 00:41:58.489
a day or two out of water. And it was our policy,

00:41:58.590 --> 00:42:00.869
because there was a handful of us that were state

00:42:00.869 --> 00:42:03.969
divers. So we would take that evidence abalone,

00:42:04.090 --> 00:42:06.190
photograph it, document it, and we would dive.

00:42:06.619 --> 00:42:08.659
Put it back. Replace them on the reefs. That's

00:42:08.659 --> 00:42:11.340
awesome. It's that valuable. Right. Because no

00:42:11.340 --> 00:42:14.400
judge wants that pile of abalone sitting in his

00:42:14.400 --> 00:42:18.659
courtroom. Plus, you're going to save it. Exactly.

00:42:18.940 --> 00:42:21.179
And all the prosecutors totally agreed with that.

00:42:22.219 --> 00:42:25.380
So we know we have, I think it was 129 abalone.

00:42:25.559 --> 00:42:27.940
And these red abalone are very large. And he's

00:42:27.940 --> 00:42:34.900
a very good diver. And so myself and the lieutenant,

00:42:36.429 --> 00:42:38.889
ducks around a corner and we are right after

00:42:38.889 --> 00:42:43.150
him and he's sucked up against the wall just

00:42:43.150 --> 00:42:46.050
knowing that the look on his face was like oh

00:42:46.050 --> 00:42:48.670
yeah here it is here's the day interesting i

00:42:48.670 --> 00:42:50.690
wonder if at the last minute they had suspected

00:42:50.690 --> 00:42:52.690
they were you were behind them it's possible

00:42:52.690 --> 00:42:56.190
it's possible but how many abalone were in that

00:42:56.190 --> 00:42:58.829
truck 129 and you said they're worth how much

00:42:58.829 --> 00:43:01.110
a piece at that hundred dollars a piece wow okay

00:43:01.110 --> 00:43:05.760
that's a big load so that's 1300 bucks yeah Okay,

00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:08.900
so so so yeah, I'm sorry I kind of getting us

00:43:08.900 --> 00:43:11.679
off track you bust Joel right there and you've

00:43:11.679 --> 00:43:16.900
taken taking it down, right? Yeah. Yeah so we

00:43:16.900 --> 00:43:25.000
We had suspected who his buyer was And when he

00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:28.519
was a commercial diver there was a man named

00:43:28.519 --> 00:43:32.989
Jimmy Fong who owned Goldmine seafood Pier 45

00:43:32.989 --> 00:43:35.530
in Barcadero of San Francisco that was an import

00:43:35.530 --> 00:43:40.550
-export fish dealer. And he bought a lot of the

00:43:40.550 --> 00:43:46.170
abalone and shipped them to China. And it was

00:43:46.170 --> 00:43:49.150
apparent that after the commercial season closed

00:43:49.150 --> 00:43:53.050
that Jimmy and Joel still had the same commitment

00:43:53.050 --> 00:43:56.769
to each other. It was business as usual, status

00:43:56.769 --> 00:44:00.800
quo. I'm going to go get you some abs and sell

00:44:00.800 --> 00:44:04.519
them to you and you export them. Interesting.

00:44:04.739 --> 00:44:09.099
OK. So we really wanted Jimmy Fong, too. So Joel

00:44:09.099 --> 00:44:13.059
had left his cell phone in the van. And as our

00:44:13.059 --> 00:44:15.719
officers are inventorying the van and getting

00:44:15.719 --> 00:44:18.139
the tow truck and everything, the phone starts

00:44:18.139 --> 00:44:22.000
ringing off the wall. And it's Jimmy Fong. Jimmy

00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:24.760
Fong. Nice. So one of our officers answers it,

00:44:24.760 --> 00:44:29.269
trying to sound like Joel. Wow, nice. You're

00:44:29.269 --> 00:44:31.349
not here. Where are you? And he's trying to play

00:44:31.349 --> 00:44:33.389
it off. And you don't sound like yourself, so

00:44:33.389 --> 00:44:37.889
he hangs up. And we come to find out that that

00:44:37.889 --> 00:44:41.469
shed belonged to Jimmy Fong. OK. So these guys

00:44:41.469 --> 00:44:43.630
were taking that load back to the shed that belonged

00:44:43.630 --> 00:44:46.869
to Jimmy Fong. So they were, that sale was on.

00:44:47.010 --> 00:44:49.369
You just interrupted the sale just before. Yeah.

00:44:49.469 --> 00:44:54.210
Nice. But the good thing about 129 abalone, that's,

00:44:54.210 --> 00:44:58.670
that's. Evidence that over over 12 is considered

00:44:58.670 --> 00:45:02.449
for commercial purposes excellent So better case

00:45:02.449 --> 00:45:05.690
stronger penalty. Yes more serious offense. Yeah,

00:45:05.690 --> 00:45:09.750
so we had done a lot of work in Previous years

00:45:09.750 --> 00:45:12.110
to strengthen our penalty sections on a lot of

00:45:12.110 --> 00:45:14.789
this commercial poaching, especially abalone

00:45:14.789 --> 00:45:19.590
and We got the penalties and fines increased

00:45:19.590 --> 00:45:24.630
to $40 ,000 for each violation lifetime revocation

00:45:27.070 --> 00:45:29.789
forfeiture of vehicles, boats, any equipment

00:45:29.789 --> 00:45:33.570
used in the commission of the crime. And we had

00:45:33.570 --> 00:45:35.969
felony conspiracy charges because they were working

00:45:35.969 --> 00:45:40.469
in conjunction with each other. So we did end

00:45:40.469 --> 00:45:44.289
up going to trial. So who'd you charge? You ended

00:45:44.289 --> 00:45:48.230
up charging? We charged Joel Roberts and John.

00:45:48.389 --> 00:45:54.130
John, okay. What about Jimmy? We did not have

00:45:54.130 --> 00:45:57.489
enough for Jimmy. It was a lot of circumstantial

00:45:57.489 --> 00:46:00.369
evidence, but we knew. But we knew we didn't

00:46:00.369 --> 00:46:03.130
have him good enough to where he would be bound

00:46:03.130 --> 00:46:06.349
over to Superior Court in a preliminary hearing.

00:46:06.690 --> 00:46:08.369
Before we get to the trial, though, the charges

00:46:08.369 --> 00:46:13.449
and trial on Joel and John, did you ever come

00:46:13.449 --> 00:46:16.050
up with any other evidence to suggest that this

00:46:16.050 --> 00:46:20.880
was not like a one -time deal? Oh, yes. As with

00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:23.039
any case we make, when you make an arrest, you're

00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:25.579
not done. Right. There's so much investigation

00:46:25.579 --> 00:46:28.380
to go, you know, to get that bigger picture.

00:46:28.639 --> 00:46:31.800
We want that bigger picture. So seizing cell

00:46:31.800 --> 00:46:35.579
phones, doing cell phone search warrants and

00:46:35.579 --> 00:46:38.000
getting all that information. We interviewed

00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:42.059
the employees at Motel 6 in Petaluma. Wow. Good.

00:46:42.139 --> 00:46:45.400
That's good. That was smart. Yeah. And it was

00:46:45.400 --> 00:46:49.630
a gold mine. Yeah. wasn't Jimmy Fong's gold mine,

00:46:49.650 --> 00:46:54.730
but it was a gold mine. And yeah, they had records

00:46:54.730 --> 00:47:00.650
of Joel checking into Motel 6 like a couple of

00:47:00.650 --> 00:47:05.690
times every week for months. Wow. Okay, so you

00:47:05.690 --> 00:47:08.050
know what he's doing. Yeah. But presumably you

00:47:08.050 --> 00:47:10.250
couldn't necessarily charge him with extra counts

00:47:10.250 --> 00:47:12.949
because yeah, you know what he was doing, but

00:47:12.949 --> 00:47:15.170
you can't prove that beyond a reasonable doubt,

00:47:15.289 --> 00:47:17.170
right? Yeah, but this one ended up being enough.

00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:20.340
Really? Okay. You got multiple counts on him.

00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:24.659
Well, we had felony conspiracy to harvest abalone

00:47:24.659 --> 00:47:28.199
for commercial purposes. Right. And remember,

00:47:28.199 --> 00:47:32.699
I told you the $40 ,000 fines, the jail time

00:47:32.699 --> 00:47:37.639
and stuff like that. We all had to testify at

00:47:37.639 --> 00:47:44.619
the preliminary hearing. He was bound over to

00:47:44.619 --> 00:47:47.719
Superior Court and we didn't go to jury trial.

00:47:47.780 --> 00:47:50.500
We actually ended up, there was a plea on that

00:47:50.500 --> 00:47:54.420
one. But the plea was good. This judge was not

00:47:54.420 --> 00:47:59.739
happy. So Joel and John pled guilty? Yes. To

00:47:59.739 --> 00:48:06.780
this one poaching incident? Yes. So Joel got

00:48:06.780 --> 00:48:09.480
three years in state prison. Wow, that's a great

00:48:09.480 --> 00:48:12.429
sentence. That's a great sentence. Yeah, it is

00:48:12.429 --> 00:48:14.829
a great sentence. Plus a lifetime revocation

00:48:14.829 --> 00:48:20.550
of licenses. Funky got, John Funky, he got, he

00:48:20.550 --> 00:48:25.329
was his, you know, lookout. Right. He got like

00:48:25.329 --> 00:48:31.710
200 some days, county, a substantial fine. But

00:48:31.710 --> 00:48:33.730
Joel went down pretty hard. That's a great result.

00:48:34.030 --> 00:48:35.889
And you know, going back to what you discovered

00:48:35.889 --> 00:48:38.269
through the search warrants of the phones and

00:48:38.269 --> 00:48:43.539
interviewing the motel people, It showed that

00:48:43.539 --> 00:48:45.739
he had certainly done this before. You might

00:48:45.739 --> 00:48:49.900
not be able to charge those, but I think people

00:48:49.900 --> 00:48:52.539
kind of forget. Bad guys forget anyway. Sometimes

00:48:52.539 --> 00:48:55.420
maybe officers forget. Gathering that information

00:48:55.420 --> 00:48:58.860
can be used in sentencing. That can come up before

00:48:58.860 --> 00:49:02.260
a judge and say, well, Your Honor, we caught

00:49:02.260 --> 00:49:05.480
him here and he had done exactly the same MO,

00:49:05.719 --> 00:49:09.239
right? Same MO. And that's all spelled out in

00:49:09.239 --> 00:49:12.320
the report, the dates, the times that he was

00:49:12.320 --> 00:49:17.320
up there. Beautiful. And it's shocking. It shocks

00:49:17.320 --> 00:49:20.159
the conscience of knowing. And if he did the

00:49:20.159 --> 00:49:22.880
math, I think we did the math on how many times

00:49:22.880 --> 00:49:24.860
he'd gone up there. He probably would have dove

00:49:24.860 --> 00:49:27.099
two nights. He probably would have used both.

00:49:27.099 --> 00:49:30.079
He did use both tanks. He probably would have

00:49:30.079 --> 00:49:32.099
used both tanks, went and got an airfield. There's

00:49:32.099 --> 00:49:35.320
dive shops all up and down. that area and gone

00:49:35.320 --> 00:49:38.019
out again. So he could have taken twice as many.

00:49:38.039 --> 00:49:40.360
If he hadn't got hinked up when he saw the vehicle

00:49:40.360 --> 00:49:43.199
that first night and gone out that night and

00:49:43.199 --> 00:49:44.880
the second night, he would have doubled the amount.

00:49:44.880 --> 00:49:48.599
Right. Wow. And here's a guy who's on this conservation

00:49:48.599 --> 00:49:51.320
advisory group. Abalone Advisory Committee for

00:49:51.320 --> 00:49:55.059
the State of California. Shameful. And what's

00:49:55.059 --> 00:50:00.320
really bad about Scuba is, you know, you can

00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:02.719
stay down. He was a good diver. He could probably

00:50:02.719 --> 00:50:04.659
stay down an hour because you're not really that

00:50:04.659 --> 00:50:11.059
deep on some of these reefs. And he's just completely

00:50:11.059 --> 00:50:14.300
mowing down a reef. And remember, I told you

00:50:14.300 --> 00:50:19.940
about broadcast spawning. They need that proximity

00:50:19.940 --> 00:50:25.059
within a meter or two to be able to successfully

00:50:25.059 --> 00:50:31.019
propagate. completely clean out a reef of all

00:50:31.019 --> 00:50:35.659
abalone, there's no reproduction going to ever

00:50:35.659 --> 00:50:40.559
go on again. So it's just, you've decimated that

00:50:40.559 --> 00:50:43.840
area. Yeah, shameful. Yeah, and you're separating.

00:50:46.559 --> 00:50:50.460
Even at best, you're starting to create more

00:50:50.460 --> 00:50:54.579
distance between individual abalone so that broadcast

00:50:54.579 --> 00:50:57.429
spawning is not going to work. You know if they're

00:50:57.429 --> 00:51:00.429
not gonna be successful when it's and Here's

00:51:00.429 --> 00:51:03.050
a guy who knew that right because he knows abalone.

00:51:03.050 --> 00:51:06.570
You know that more than anybody biology and he

00:51:06.570 --> 00:51:10.030
Still very intelligent young man driven by is

00:51:10.030 --> 00:51:15.510
actually Greed in his drug. He was actually well

00:51:15.510 --> 00:51:21.150
spoken Didn't resist I mean he he wasn't a jerk

00:51:21.150 --> 00:51:25.650
nice, but you know he he was He made some really

00:51:25.650 --> 00:51:30.230
bad decisions in his personal life that drove

00:51:30.230 --> 00:51:34.190
him to have to do this. And, you know, you can't

00:51:34.190 --> 00:51:37.710
feel sorry for somebody like that. Not with the

00:51:37.710 --> 00:51:41.989
damage that they have done. I agree. And he kind

00:51:41.989 --> 00:51:43.690
of never recovered. He had the drug problem.

00:51:43.769 --> 00:51:46.909
Never recovered. Unfortunately, passed away at

00:51:46.909 --> 00:51:50.630
the age of 50. And he was 37 at the time we got

00:51:50.630 --> 00:51:56.099
him. Just... The demons he couldn't he couldn't

00:51:56.099 --> 00:51:58.860
shake the demons So this obviously was not the

00:51:58.860 --> 00:52:01.639
only abalone case you worked successfully during

00:52:01.639 --> 00:52:07.179
your time What You know, there's a lot of things

00:52:07.179 --> 00:52:10.599
impacting abalone Certainly illegal poaching

00:52:10.599 --> 00:52:13.980
for commercial purposes doesn't help right? Right,

00:52:14.260 --> 00:52:16.019
but at the same time, what are some of the other

00:52:16.019 --> 00:52:18.039
things that were going on with abalone? I mean,

00:52:18.579 --> 00:52:20.840
we can't that the elephant in the room, of course

00:52:20.840 --> 00:52:24.880
is Bigger factors, right? Yes, and it's it's

00:52:24.880 --> 00:52:27.000
climate change that's really impacting abalone,

00:52:27.059 --> 00:52:33.960
right? Yes, so You know during my era with special

00:52:33.960 --> 00:52:36.199
ops climate change was starting to be talked

00:52:36.199 --> 00:52:43.739
about but it wasn't like we know it today So

00:52:43.739 --> 00:52:49.639
we we put our heart and soul into trying to Keep

00:52:49.639 --> 00:52:53.619
this population viable. I mean And that not just

00:52:53.619 --> 00:52:55.760
law enforcement, but the biologists everybody

00:52:55.760 --> 00:52:59.019
that works for California trying hard right that

00:52:59.019 --> 00:53:04.099
have done all the studying and the Yes, it's

00:53:04.099 --> 00:53:08.659
just so much effort has gone into trying to Save

00:53:08.659 --> 00:53:12.619
this population, right? So have you ever heard

00:53:12.619 --> 00:53:15.159
of the blob? No, and I wanted to talk to you

00:53:15.159 --> 00:53:17.340
about this because I had not heard about it before

00:53:17.340 --> 00:53:20.239
I talked to you. They call it that. It's basically

00:53:20.239 --> 00:53:24.659
a marine heat wave that occurs out in the ocean.

00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:32.039
And in 2014, we had a huge one off the coast.

00:53:32.460 --> 00:53:36.800
I mean, it was massive. And in addition to that,

00:53:36.820 --> 00:53:41.500
in 2013, we started the the sunflower sea stars

00:53:41.500 --> 00:53:47.960
started, they started dying from disease. And

00:53:47.960 --> 00:53:50.119
this is a whole chain of events. And we talked

00:53:50.119 --> 00:53:54.320
earlier about, I'm a firm believer that one ocean,

00:53:54.559 --> 00:53:57.179
one health, everything's connected. Yeah, we've

00:53:57.179 --> 00:53:59.500
talked about that many times. It's just, everything

00:53:59.500 --> 00:54:04.219
is so connected. Right. So the sea stars, start

00:54:04.219 --> 00:54:07.659
dying off in mass quantities. And they're the

00:54:07.659 --> 00:54:10.219
large ones that just go over the ocean floor.

00:54:10.460 --> 00:54:13.199
Starfish kind of would. I would call starfish.

00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:16.980
But this is why. Why are these dying off? Diseases

00:54:16.980 --> 00:54:20.679
and this warming of the seas absolutely did not

00:54:20.679 --> 00:54:23.139
help. It makes them vulnerable, more susceptible

00:54:23.139 --> 00:54:26.900
to disease. I mean, it didn't just affect the

00:54:26.900 --> 00:54:30.179
sea stars. It affected all marine life. Right.

00:54:30.329 --> 00:54:32.349
And this blob you're talking about is a blob

00:54:32.349 --> 00:54:34.690
of warm water. Warm water. It kind of moved into

00:54:34.690 --> 00:54:38.190
northern California and sat, right? Yes. I think

00:54:38.190 --> 00:54:41.250
it was more than northern California, too. So

00:54:41.250 --> 00:54:46.429
these sea stars, this is the chain of event.

00:54:46.650 --> 00:54:49.369
These sea stars are the main predator of purple

00:54:49.369 --> 00:54:54.090
urchins. Purple urchins are very, you know, remember

00:54:54.090 --> 00:54:57.730
we talked about abalone and their main diet is

00:54:57.730 --> 00:55:01.980
bull kelp? Right. North coasts usually just an

00:55:01.980 --> 00:55:09.039
amazing bull kelp forest The sea stars are dying

00:55:09.039 --> 00:55:14.559
The water is warming. It's this massive explosion

00:55:14.559 --> 00:55:18.300
of purple urchins which are not the desirable

00:55:18.300 --> 00:55:21.079
red urchins that there was also a commercial

00:55:21.079 --> 00:55:23.760
industry for because it's if you're a sushi eater,

00:55:23.940 --> 00:55:27.619
it's it's they're gonads and it's the only that

00:55:27.619 --> 00:55:34.739
you have on That's sea urchin. So the purple

00:55:34.739 --> 00:55:39.260
urchins explode. They occupy the same reefs as

00:55:39.260 --> 00:55:42.760
the abalone. They eat the same thing as the abalone.

00:55:44.320 --> 00:55:48.760
They eat through our north coast bull kelp. They

00:55:48.760 --> 00:55:54.139
deforest the bull kelp. Like 90 % of our bull

00:55:54.139 --> 00:55:59.340
kelp was just completely devoured. So we have

00:55:59.340 --> 00:56:01.300
all the abalone that have starved to death and

00:56:01.300 --> 00:56:03.440
now the purple urchins are starving to death

00:56:03.440 --> 00:56:06.659
So you see that whole connection you take out

00:56:06.659 --> 00:56:09.420
you take out one species that controls another

00:56:09.420 --> 00:56:12.559
species that Controls another species and the

00:56:12.559 --> 00:56:15.420
next thing you know you have this catastrophic

00:56:15.420 --> 00:56:20.880
collapse of such a valuable resource, and that's

00:56:20.880 --> 00:56:25.500
what we're faced with today and You know we talked

00:56:25.500 --> 00:56:28.980
about Glass half empty, glass half full, and

00:56:28.980 --> 00:56:31.639
I'm glass half full. I'm glass half full myself.

00:56:31.800 --> 00:56:35.000
So we got to figure this out though. So these

00:56:35.000 --> 00:56:38.179
sea stars come in, the sea stars die. Purple

00:56:38.179 --> 00:56:40.599
urchins come in, eat all the bull kelp that causes

00:56:40.599 --> 00:56:43.539
the abalone to starve to death. Abalone populations

00:56:43.539 --> 00:56:48.039
crash. Do you have kind of a sense on how much

00:56:48.039 --> 00:56:51.559
abalone populations have crashed? I read from

00:56:51.559 --> 00:56:56.000
the department like 94%. 94 % of the Abalone

00:56:56.000 --> 00:57:00.980
is gone, basically. Wow. So glass half full us.

00:57:01.739 --> 00:57:06.400
Kathy? Well, we have a lot of big brains working

00:57:06.400 --> 00:57:09.980
on this. We have a lot of amazing scientists

00:57:09.980 --> 00:57:14.380
that have dedicated their lives to abalone. And

00:57:14.380 --> 00:57:17.440
they're trying everything they can. There was,

00:57:17.440 --> 00:57:19.139
and I don't know if they're still doing it, there

00:57:19.139 --> 00:57:21.659
was a big volunteer dive program where you could

00:57:21.659 --> 00:57:24.440
go out there and dive. All you're doing is crushing

00:57:24.440 --> 00:57:28.039
purple urchins, just trying to eliminate them

00:57:28.039 --> 00:57:31.519
off the reef so the few abalone that are left

00:57:31.519 --> 00:57:35.179
have room and maybe some bull kelp will grow.

00:57:38.139 --> 00:57:40.559
There is another blob out there right now, apparently

00:57:40.559 --> 00:57:44.019
the size of North America. We'll see what happens

00:57:44.019 --> 00:57:50.630
with that. We just have to keep going. We just

00:57:50.630 --> 00:57:53.769
have to keep trying. Yeah. You can't like, oh

00:57:53.769 --> 00:57:57.650
well, you know, because look at the history of

00:57:57.650 --> 00:57:59.650
some of the species that we thought we lost.

00:57:59.650 --> 00:58:02.349
Right. And we got them back. Yeah. You know,

00:58:02.389 --> 00:58:05.230
for a lot of different various reasons. But I

00:58:05.230 --> 00:58:09.829
mean, this one's a daunting task, Ed. Yeah. But

00:58:09.829 --> 00:58:12.679
we can only hope. You know, yeah, and species

00:58:12.679 --> 00:58:15.039
can be very resilient. I mean, the sad thing

00:58:15.039 --> 00:58:17.420
is, I just saw today that there's a species of

00:58:17.420 --> 00:58:20.300
curlew in Europe that has been declared extinct.

00:58:21.019 --> 00:58:24.300
As of like today, it's officially declared extinct.

00:58:26.579 --> 00:58:29.739
And nobody really knows why. But on the other

00:58:29.739 --> 00:58:33.000
hand, we in the United States recovered our own

00:58:33.000 --> 00:58:35.940
bald eagle. It was nearly extinct for a number

00:58:35.940 --> 00:58:38.840
of reasons. We've recovered the California condor.

00:58:40.429 --> 00:58:44.809
grizzly bears, buffalo, bison, a whole host of

00:58:44.809 --> 00:58:46.670
species. And those were daunting tasks. We thought

00:58:46.670 --> 00:58:49.510
we had lost them. Huge daunting tasks, cost us

00:58:49.510 --> 00:58:54.650
a lot of money. And so, yeah, you have to hope

00:58:54.650 --> 00:58:56.869
that species, you have to trust that species

00:58:56.869 --> 00:58:59.789
can be resilient and keep working to give them

00:58:59.789 --> 00:59:03.010
just that tiny bit of space that they might need

00:59:03.010 --> 00:59:07.329
to succeed, right? Right. and not give up hope.

00:59:07.530 --> 00:59:11.190
I think that's the biggest thing. Or even as

00:59:11.190 --> 00:59:13.369
you and I have talked about before, if you're

00:59:13.369 --> 00:59:15.369
going to be part of a lost cause, make sure it's

00:59:15.369 --> 00:59:18.590
a good cause or something like that. Yeah. Right?

00:59:19.190 --> 00:59:21.809
So I mean, there are a lot of things that they're

00:59:21.809 --> 00:59:27.730
doing. They're trying to do a lot of aquaculture

00:59:27.730 --> 00:59:31.510
with Kelp and things like that. And I think they've

00:59:31.510 --> 00:59:34.409
had some successes and failures. And you just

00:59:34.409 --> 00:59:37.880
kind of keep working added and because it's all,

00:59:38.000 --> 00:59:40.679
it all really revolves around our kelp forest

00:59:40.679 --> 00:59:44.019
up there in that particular situation. And there's

00:59:44.019 --> 00:59:45.900
a lot more species that rely on kelp forests

00:59:45.900 --> 00:59:48.039
as well. Sea otters. It's not just the urchin

00:59:48.039 --> 00:59:51.619
and the abalone. A lot of our favorite food fish

00:59:51.619 --> 00:59:54.659
require kelp forests. And that's their habitat.

00:59:56.440 --> 00:59:59.719
That's their safe space, you know. If anybody's

00:59:59.719 --> 01:00:04.250
ever dove through a kelp forest. It's just the

01:00:04.250 --> 01:00:08.110
most amazing thing you can see with all the different

01:00:08.110 --> 01:00:10.369
species hanging on to it and swimming through

01:00:10.369 --> 01:00:14.570
it. It's just a marine wonderland. So what do

01:00:14.570 --> 01:00:17.369
you say to the average American who's kind of

01:00:17.369 --> 01:00:20.630
bummed out now that they learned about the plight

01:00:20.630 --> 01:00:23.530
of the abalone off our coast? So what do you

01:00:23.530 --> 01:00:25.409
say to people like your daughter who are currently

01:00:25.409 --> 01:00:32.179
game wardens? Just keep up the good fight. Even

01:00:32.179 --> 01:00:34.099
if you think it's a lost cause, I think that's

01:00:34.099 --> 01:00:38.139
where you're going with that. You never know.

01:00:39.800 --> 01:00:43.599
What if we did give up? What are we doing? We

01:00:43.599 --> 01:00:45.719
know for sure what the outcome is going to be.

01:00:46.380 --> 01:00:49.400
I'm not saying that humans can heal everything,

01:00:50.260 --> 01:00:53.199
because Mother Nature is amazing, what she can

01:00:53.199 --> 01:01:00.300
do. Just be aware of what's going on in our environment

01:01:00.300 --> 01:01:03.280
and try to do the best we can with the resources

01:01:03.280 --> 01:01:06.519
we have. Yeah. The other thing too, I think is,

01:01:06.659 --> 01:01:08.539
you know, there's been some speculation that

01:01:08.539 --> 01:01:10.960
obviously there's speculation that climate change

01:01:10.960 --> 01:01:13.619
was playing a role here, right? And we know that

01:01:13.619 --> 01:01:15.460
there are some people in the United States who

01:01:15.460 --> 01:01:17.699
have turned climate change into a political issue

01:01:17.699 --> 01:01:22.400
and deny it. But for me, that's not the important

01:01:22.400 --> 01:01:26.260
question. Even the important question of is it

01:01:26.260 --> 01:01:29.880
the cause? Even is climate change real? That's

01:01:29.880 --> 01:01:32.239
not really the important question. The important

01:01:32.239 --> 01:01:37.420
question to me is, do we want to be spewing pollutants

01:01:37.420 --> 01:01:40.719
into our air? Do we want to be throwing garbage

01:01:40.719 --> 01:01:44.679
into our water and producing methane gas that

01:01:44.679 --> 01:01:48.260
could warm our atmosphere? It's not even an issue

01:01:48.260 --> 01:01:51.380
of is it, isn't it? It's not a political issue.

01:01:51.400 --> 01:01:54.099
It's a question of do we want this in our environment?

01:01:54.599 --> 01:01:57.400
I think the answer is no. We'd prefer it not

01:01:57.400 --> 01:02:00.760
to be. I don't want to be breathing it. So even

01:02:00.760 --> 01:02:05.320
if we don't know, why not try to address the

01:02:05.320 --> 01:02:07.980
issue and see if that's the answer? I mean, we

01:02:07.980 --> 01:02:11.079
don't do nothing simply because we don't know.

01:02:11.099 --> 01:02:13.500
We have some suspicions. It's probably better

01:02:13.500 --> 01:02:16.559
to act on our suspicions than to ignore it into

01:02:16.559 --> 01:02:20.639
oblivion. That's just my view. And keep the enforcement

01:02:20.639 --> 01:02:23.500
because, you know, we still have the troops out

01:02:23.500 --> 01:02:26.380
there. I mean, just because sport season is closed

01:02:26.380 --> 01:02:29.539
doesn't stop, as we well know. You know, abalone

01:02:29.539 --> 01:02:33.239
poachers, they're still out there just fighting

01:02:33.239 --> 01:02:36.760
the fight, just like my team did. We still have

01:02:36.760 --> 01:02:39.500
a special ops team. Still game wardens out there,

01:02:39.699 --> 01:02:41.539
still special agents with US Fish and Wildlife.

01:02:42.219 --> 01:02:46.199
The key is law enforcement, I think, takes the

01:02:46.199 --> 01:02:48.239
pressure off and maybe can give species that

01:02:48.239 --> 01:02:50.159
little extra breathing room they need to make

01:02:50.159 --> 01:02:52.960
that recovery if they can. Right. Maybe it was

01:02:52.960 --> 01:02:56.239
that... Two or three or four reefs that didn't

01:02:56.239 --> 01:02:58.760
get poached that might be the comeback. Yeah,

01:02:58.880 --> 01:03:01.320
exactly that one holdout population. Yes out

01:03:01.320 --> 01:03:07.440
there No, so Was that was our glass full I think

01:03:07.440 --> 01:03:10.239
I think it's I think we're got a half full glass

01:03:10.239 --> 01:03:14.800
we can we can close on I do want to say Kathy.

01:03:15.059 --> 01:03:18.789
I you know, I knew you my entire You know, the

01:03:18.789 --> 01:03:20.590
time that you were working when I was working,

01:03:20.610 --> 01:03:22.769
I was aware of what you and your unit was doing.

01:03:22.969 --> 01:03:25.269
I always enjoyed working with you in the field.

01:03:25.349 --> 01:03:29.010
And I know you have lots of cool stories, not

01:03:29.010 --> 01:03:31.130
more abalone stories, but also you worked on

01:03:31.130 --> 01:03:34.329
a lot of caviar issues in California. And I do

01:03:34.329 --> 01:03:38.590
plan to have you back to talk about a broader

01:03:38.590 --> 01:03:41.010
discussion of caviar. We've had Sean Carnes on

01:03:41.010 --> 01:03:43.449
this show to talk about the Russian caviar and

01:03:43.449 --> 01:03:45.550
the involvement of battle fish. Sean's a great

01:03:45.550 --> 01:03:48.309
guy. Sean's a great guy. And I would love to

01:03:48.309 --> 01:03:50.869
get you and Sean on an episode. And we'll talk

01:03:50.869 --> 01:03:54.409
about caviar issues across the entire United

01:03:54.409 --> 01:03:57.150
States and the world, because there's a lot of

01:03:57.150 --> 01:03:59.590
species in California and the United States that

01:03:59.590 --> 01:04:01.809
are impacted. So we're going to have you back.

01:04:01.889 --> 01:04:03.590
But thank you so much for coming and telling

01:04:03.590 --> 01:04:08.170
us this story, talking to us about abalone. It's

01:04:08.170 --> 01:04:10.570
an area that I'm sure very few people know about

01:04:10.570 --> 01:04:12.969
unless they live in California or South Africa

01:04:12.969 --> 01:04:15.710
or one of the areas where abalone is found. But

01:04:15.710 --> 01:04:17.349
I appreciate you taking the time to come talk

01:04:17.349 --> 01:04:18.949
to us. Thank you very much. Well, it's easy.

01:04:19.170 --> 01:04:21.550
It's easy to do this kind of stuff when you're

01:04:21.550 --> 01:04:24.570
passionate about it is. I mean, I never lost

01:04:24.570 --> 01:04:27.409
it after I retired. I agree. It's just genetic.

01:04:27.829 --> 01:04:30.010
100%. That's why it's so fun to come talk about

01:04:30.010 --> 01:04:32.489
it with other people who care about it. So thanks,

01:04:32.730 --> 01:04:34.730
Ed. And my listeners care about it too. So thank

01:04:34.730 --> 01:04:37.889
you so much. Good. And we'll have you back. As

01:04:37.889 --> 01:04:41.190
for the rest of us, I don't mean to leave you

01:04:41.190 --> 01:04:44.389
on a down note about abalone. Keep your spirits

01:04:44.389 --> 01:04:46.880
up. Keep fighting the good fight. Thanks for

01:04:46.880 --> 01:04:50.300
tuning in. We'll see you next time. Nature's

01:04:50.300 --> 01:04:52.320
Secret Service is written and produced by me,

01:04:52.460 --> 01:04:55.199
Ed Newcomer, and is co -produced by the DHTV

01:04:55.199 --> 01:04:58.099
team here at California State University, Dominguez

01:04:58.099 --> 01:05:00.420
Hills. Follow us on social media and connect

01:05:00.420 --> 01:05:03.059
with us online at naturesecretservice .com.