WEBVTT 00:00:00.140 --> 00:00:02.540 If you want to learn more about the topics of 00:00:02.540 --> 00:00:06.219 today's episode, visit the podcast website at 00:00:06.219 --> 00:00:09.339 naturessecretservice .com. Thanks for listening. 00:00:34.140 --> 00:00:37.780 OK, people, listen up. Here we go. This is Nature's 00:00:37.780 --> 00:00:39.500 Secret Service, the podcast that puts you in 00:00:39.500 --> 00:00:41.539 the room with the men and women of wildlife law 00:00:41.539 --> 00:00:45.039 enforcement. I'm at Newcomer, your host. And 00:00:45.039 --> 00:00:47.420 before I introduce our guest today, I just want 00:00:47.420 --> 00:00:50.579 to thank everybody who has signed up on the website 00:00:50.579 --> 00:00:55.960 and is following us and subscribed. At this point 00:00:55.960 --> 00:00:58.740 in the podcast, we're trying to build our viewership 00:00:58.740 --> 00:01:02.509 and our listenership. If you can help us out 00:01:02.509 --> 00:01:05.170 by rating us online or wherever you download 00:01:05.170 --> 00:01:09.950 the podcast and make sure you sign up or subscribe 00:01:09.950 --> 00:01:12.590 and go to the website and make sure you're signed 00:01:12.590 --> 00:01:16.469 up for updates. All right. This week we have 00:01:16.469 --> 00:01:19.069 a guest I've been looking forward to for a while. 00:01:19.870 --> 00:01:22.650 Tom Chizdock is a retired U .S. Fish and Wildlife 00:01:22.650 --> 00:01:25.870 Service Special Agent. He spent most of his career 00:01:25.870 --> 00:01:29.609 working in the Southeastern U .S. He got his 00:01:29.609 --> 00:01:31.769 start when he was a new agent working in the 00:01:31.769 --> 00:01:34.870 Los Angeles field office. So Tom and I share 00:01:34.870 --> 00:01:38.129 the same training officer. We were both trained 00:01:38.129 --> 00:01:40.810 by Marie Palladini, who's been on the show before. 00:01:41.769 --> 00:01:43.969 Tom retired from the US Fish and Wildlife Service 00:01:43.969 --> 00:01:48.469 in 2019, and he shortly thereafter received the 00:01:48.469 --> 00:01:51.629 Guy Bradley Award for Outstanding Career Service, 00:01:51.650 --> 00:01:54.659 which is... a real accomplishment. The awards 00:01:54.659 --> 00:01:57.299 named after the first conservation law enforcement 00:01:57.299 --> 00:02:01.099 officer killed in the line of duty. And he definitely 00:02:01.099 --> 00:02:04.920 had a stellar career. I've always admired the 00:02:04.920 --> 00:02:07.420 work that he did, and I'm really happy to welcome 00:02:07.420 --> 00:02:09.699 him on the show. Tom, thanks for being with us. 00:02:10.719 --> 00:02:13.340 You're welcome, Matt. I appreciate it. I think 00:02:13.340 --> 00:02:16.120 we're going to have a fun conversation today. 00:02:16.120 --> 00:02:18.900 But I just wanted to point out that because you 00:02:18.900 --> 00:02:23.280 had worked a I forget, you left LA just before 00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:25.740 I arrived. So how long were you working in Los 00:02:25.740 --> 00:02:29.479 Angeles? I worked in Los Angeles for just over 00:02:29.479 --> 00:02:31.680 two years, and I transferred to Washington state 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:34.819 after that. Gotcha. Yep. And I think I came in 00:02:34.819 --> 00:02:36.639 right after that because there were lots of Tom 00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:39.259 Chisdok stories around the office when I arrived. 00:02:40.729 --> 00:02:45.490 None of them good. All good, all good. And because 00:02:45.490 --> 00:02:48.509 you had been in the field office where I eventually 00:02:48.509 --> 00:02:50.490 worked, I, of course, know some agents who worked 00:02:50.490 --> 00:02:53.689 with you. And before I came to the podcast recording 00:02:53.689 --> 00:02:56.509 today, I called them and I asked them for some 00:02:56.509 --> 00:02:59.189 comments about Tom Chistok or some thoughts. 00:03:00.389 --> 00:03:04.349 And here's some words that came up. Integrity, 00:03:04.870 --> 00:03:09.150 hard worker, creative undercover work. But this 00:03:09.150 --> 00:03:11.090 is the one that really struck me, and that was, 00:03:11.590 --> 00:03:15.710 always ate leftovers for lunch. That's true. 00:03:17.469 --> 00:03:22.830 I'm a frugal guy. What's that about? Yeah, you 00:03:22.830 --> 00:03:24.969 know, actually, I know exactly what that's about. 00:03:24.990 --> 00:03:27.129 And that was, you were a new agent working in 00:03:27.129 --> 00:03:29.150 Los Angeles, which is one of the most expensive 00:03:29.150 --> 00:03:32.650 duty stations to live in. That's true. That's 00:03:32.650 --> 00:03:37.360 what leftovers is all about. Hey, the other thing 00:03:37.360 --> 00:03:39.919 we have in common, when you and I were talking 00:03:39.919 --> 00:03:43.819 to prep for this, you and I both really wanted 00:03:43.819 --> 00:03:46.180 to be special agents for US Fish and Wildlife 00:03:46.180 --> 00:03:48.460 Service. And I was struck when you told me that 00:03:48.460 --> 00:03:51.960 you had applied for the job five times. And that's 00:03:51.960 --> 00:03:54.360 exactly how many times it took me to get hired 00:03:54.360 --> 00:03:59.479 as well. And I think I really click with people 00:03:59.479 --> 00:04:03.199 who really wanted the job, because I think like 00:04:03.199 --> 00:04:06.949 you, Before I became a special agent for Fish 00:04:06.949 --> 00:04:08.909 and Wildlife Service, I always looked at the 00:04:08.909 --> 00:04:12.050 agents and I thought, man, these are some really 00:04:12.050 --> 00:04:14.370 good agents. I mean, everything I ever read about 00:04:14.370 --> 00:04:17.449 their cases, I just thought these are unbelievably 00:04:17.449 --> 00:04:20.129 good investigators, extremely tenacious, and 00:04:20.129 --> 00:04:22.709 I wanted to be part of that group. I think you 00:04:22.709 --> 00:04:26.709 felt the same, didn't you? Exactly. You know, 00:04:26.750 --> 00:04:29.769 I read an article. I don't know if it was from 00:04:29.769 --> 00:04:32.389 the Federal Wildlife Officer Association or National 00:04:32.389 --> 00:04:36.029 Geographic or something. but it was an operation 00:04:36.029 --> 00:04:38.449 that occurred outside of Yellowstone National 00:04:38.449 --> 00:04:41.449 Park, Operation Trophy Kill. And at the time 00:04:41.449 --> 00:04:43.850 I was arranging with the park service and I read 00:04:43.850 --> 00:04:47.910 that article and it just really hit me and struck 00:04:47.910 --> 00:04:49.790 me and I was like, that's what I want to do. 00:04:50.490 --> 00:04:52.910 I know exactly the article you're talking about 00:04:52.910 --> 00:04:56.610 and I think it was Nat Geo and it was the agents 00:04:56.610 --> 00:05:00.430 were working on outfitters or hunters that were 00:05:00.430 --> 00:05:03.660 basically either sneaking into Yellowstone National 00:05:03.660 --> 00:05:06.040 Park or they were luring Big Elk out of the park, 00:05:06.180 --> 00:05:08.240 right? I can't remember, maybe both. Yeah, a 00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:10.779 lot of big game. Yeah, I remember reading that 00:05:10.779 --> 00:05:13.459 too. And it was one of many stories around that 00:05:13.459 --> 00:05:17.819 time, late 90s, early to late 90s, I guess, that 00:05:17.819 --> 00:05:20.019 really influenced me and made me think I got 00:05:20.019 --> 00:05:23.139 to be part of this organization, right? Exactly. 00:05:24.459 --> 00:05:28.120 You, when you, uh, eventually after LA, you went 00:05:28.120 --> 00:05:30.180 to Washington state, but you eventually made 00:05:30.180 --> 00:05:33.180 your way to the southeastern U S where you spent 00:05:33.180 --> 00:05:36.160 a large part of your career and you really made 00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:39.920 a name for yourself working on cases involving 00:05:39.920 --> 00:05:43.720 ginseng. And I am guessing some of my listeners 00:05:43.720 --> 00:05:46.699 will know what ginseng is, but some might not. 00:05:46.740 --> 00:05:49.500 So can you explain to us a little bit about what 00:05:49.500 --> 00:05:53.620 ginseng is and why it's a why it's of interest 00:05:53.620 --> 00:05:57.019 to the U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service law enforcement. 00:05:58.899 --> 00:06:00.639 Well, maybe like some of your listeners, when 00:06:00.639 --> 00:06:03.300 I transferred to North Carolina, I didn't know 00:06:03.300 --> 00:06:08.160 anything about ginseng. Trying to talk to sister 00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:10.620 agencies and particularly the Park Service, I 00:06:10.620 --> 00:06:13.100 quickly learned that there is quite the commercial 00:06:13.100 --> 00:06:17.100 trade in wild American ginseng. Ginseng is a 00:06:17.100 --> 00:06:20.810 deciduous type plant. that grows all along the 00:06:20.810 --> 00:06:22.790 Appalachian trail, excuse me, the Appalachian 00:06:22.790 --> 00:06:25.370 mountains. It'll even grow down as far south 00:06:25.370 --> 00:06:27.850 as northern Mississippi and all the way up to 00:06:27.850 --> 00:06:31.329 southern Canada. And it's a plant that grows 00:06:31.329 --> 00:06:35.329 in shady areas. It's deciduous, so it comes up 00:06:35.329 --> 00:06:38.009 in the spring and then it grows, forms berries 00:06:38.009 --> 00:06:40.589 to reproduce. And then in the fall, October, 00:06:40.610 --> 00:06:43.430 November, the leaves start to turn colors and 00:06:43.430 --> 00:06:46.129 the foliage dies and it goes back down. And you 00:06:46.129 --> 00:06:48.540 can't see it after that until the spring. pops 00:06:48.540 --> 00:06:52.500 back up, so a perennial plant. Traditionally, 00:06:52.860 --> 00:06:56.379 people have harvested ginseng and dug it and 00:06:56.379 --> 00:06:59.500 sold it for commercial purposes. They use it 00:06:59.500 --> 00:07:02.899 for medicinal purposes. Back when I first started, 00:07:03.139 --> 00:07:06.620 about 90 -95 % of the wild American ginseng was 00:07:06.620 --> 00:07:10.740 being exported out of this country. And so that's 00:07:10.740 --> 00:07:12.620 how the Fish and Wildlife Service is involved 00:07:12.620 --> 00:07:15.060 with that. It's regulated under CITES, Convention 00:07:15.060 --> 00:07:17.019 on International Trade and Dangerous Species. 00:07:17.259 --> 00:07:20.079 And that's overlaid on some state regulations. 00:07:20.339 --> 00:07:23.199 You're required to have a dealer's license to 00:07:23.199 --> 00:07:26.120 buy and sell it. There's permits that are required 00:07:26.120 --> 00:07:30.759 to move it in interstate commerce. So it's a 00:07:30.759 --> 00:07:33.360 commodity, but also it's a resource for a lot 00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:35.360 of, has been a resource for a lot of mountain 00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:38.339 folks. You know, traditionally they dug it. They 00:07:38.339 --> 00:07:40.420 saved it till November to sell it to a dealer, 00:07:40.620 --> 00:07:42.360 might have used it for Christmas money or something 00:07:42.360 --> 00:07:45.360 like that. So it's really ingrained in the Southern 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:49.000 Appalachian Mountains and the people of the Southern 00:07:49.000 --> 00:07:51.720 Appalachian Mountains. Like I said, there's a 00:07:51.720 --> 00:07:55.019 legal season that starts generally in September 00:07:55.019 --> 00:07:58.079 and goes through until the plant dies back. And 00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:00.920 then the seasons close in the spring and summertime 00:08:00.920 --> 00:08:03.160 to give the plant an opportunity to grow and 00:08:03.160 --> 00:08:06.399 produce berries to reproduce. You told me something 00:08:06.399 --> 00:08:08.459 interesting about ginseng that I didn't know. 00:08:08.459 --> 00:08:11.040 I didn't know about the whole berry thing, but 00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:13.220 associated with the legal trade where somebody 00:08:13.220 --> 00:08:16.040 has a permit and they're doing everything legally 00:08:16.040 --> 00:08:19.000 where they can collect it and potentially sell 00:08:19.000 --> 00:08:21.720 it. With regard to those berries, there's something 00:08:21.720 --> 00:08:25.319 very specific that a legal collector has to do. 00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:28.620 Can you explain that a little bit? Yeah, so the 00:08:28.620 --> 00:08:30.779 seasons generally begin about September 1 and 00:08:30.779 --> 00:08:35.019 that allows the fruit to grow on the plant. and 00:08:35.019 --> 00:08:37.440 literally to grow to fruition. And then when 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:39.379 you harvest the ginseng and there's berries on 00:08:39.379 --> 00:08:41.440 the plant, you're required to plant the berries 00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:44.580 at the site to propagate, you know, that species 00:08:44.580 --> 00:08:48.279 for perpetuity. That is so interesting that it's 00:08:48.279 --> 00:08:51.019 kind of built into the, to the legal framework 00:08:51.019 --> 00:08:52.879 of the collection process. You actually have 00:08:52.879 --> 00:08:56.019 to become a propagator as well as part of the 00:08:56.019 --> 00:09:00.690 legal process. What's the market? You mentioned 00:09:00.690 --> 00:09:03.350 that some ginseng goes overseas or a lot of it. 00:09:03.629 --> 00:09:07.870 What's the market overseas for ginseng? It's 00:09:07.870 --> 00:09:10.450 basically for traditional Chinese medicine, you 00:09:10.450 --> 00:09:12.789 know, Eastern medicine, you know, a little different 00:09:12.789 --> 00:09:15.570 than the medicine that we're used to in the Western 00:09:15.570 --> 00:09:19.250 culture. But it's highly sought after, like other 00:09:19.250 --> 00:09:21.210 types of commodities, you know, that we've dealt 00:09:21.210 --> 00:09:23.250 with over our careers. You know, whether that's 00:09:23.250 --> 00:09:27.190 bear bile, bear gallbladder, pangolin, all different 00:09:27.190 --> 00:09:29.970 types of natural resources, whether they're plants 00:09:29.970 --> 00:09:34.110 or animals used for medicinal purposes. Right, 00:09:34.149 --> 00:09:38.779 right. And then I assume because it's listed 00:09:38.779 --> 00:09:42.399 as CITES and I, you know, often I think, you 00:09:42.399 --> 00:09:45.200 know, our agency was called U .S. Fish and Wildlife 00:09:45.200 --> 00:09:47.879 Service. It had wildlife in it. There's no plant 00:09:47.879 --> 00:09:51.659 named in the name of our agency. Most state agencies 00:09:51.659 --> 00:09:56.269 do not have plants in their name. You know, many, 00:09:56.309 --> 00:09:58.690 many species listed under the Endangered Species 00:09:58.690 --> 00:10:01.289 Act in the United States are plants. And many, 00:10:01.330 --> 00:10:04.710 many species listed under CITES are plants. And 00:10:04.710 --> 00:10:07.769 so the agents of the US Fish and Wildlife Service 00:10:07.769 --> 00:10:10.269 are responsible for enforcing those laws. So 00:10:10.269 --> 00:10:13.830 we often do get involved in plant trafficking 00:10:13.830 --> 00:10:20.490 or illegal plant collection cases. Can you describe 00:10:20.490 --> 00:10:23.750 the illegal trade a little bit in ginseng? What's 00:10:23.750 --> 00:10:26.450 the illegal trade, who's involved, and where's 00:10:26.450 --> 00:10:32.190 it going? Like any item resource that's commercialized, 00:10:32.330 --> 00:10:34.470 you generally have the legal trade, and then 00:10:34.470 --> 00:10:37.330 there's what we often refer to as a black market 00:10:37.330 --> 00:10:42.570 trade. And so with regards to ginseng, there 00:10:42.570 --> 00:10:45.629 are dealers who do not want to go through the 00:10:45.629 --> 00:10:48.730 proper channels to purchase a permit or a license 00:10:48.730 --> 00:10:52.049 to deal in ginseng. It costs money to do that. 00:10:52.850 --> 00:10:56.029 paperwork that's involved when a digger comes 00:10:56.029 --> 00:10:58.049 in to sell ginseng, they've got to write down 00:10:58.049 --> 00:11:00.750 the person's name, what county it was dug in, 00:11:00.929 --> 00:11:05.009 how much they sold, and that's just to keep biological 00:11:05.009 --> 00:11:09.350 tabs on the ginseng population to keep it safe 00:11:09.350 --> 00:11:13.490 from extinction or over exploitation. But there 00:11:13.490 --> 00:11:15.769 are some dealers who will operate without a license 00:11:15.769 --> 00:11:17.590 because of that, and there are also a lot of 00:11:17.590 --> 00:11:22.129 dealers or even diggers that will harvest and 00:11:22.059 --> 00:11:24.519 purchase and sell ginseng prior to the season 00:11:24.519 --> 00:11:26.940 opening in September. So when the first comes 00:11:26.940 --> 00:11:30.879 up in, you know, early April or May, oftentimes 00:11:30.879 --> 00:11:32.620 there are some people who are out there taking 00:11:32.620 --> 00:11:34.620 advantage of the system. They're harvesting the 00:11:34.620 --> 00:11:38.000 ginseng at that time and, you know, selling it 00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:40.519 or holding it until the legal season opens. So 00:11:40.519 --> 00:11:42.919 what's the big deal, right? Well, the big deal 00:11:42.919 --> 00:11:45.600 is that those plants don't grow to fruition to 00:11:45.600 --> 00:11:47.980 produce their seeds. So there's no seeds to, 00:11:47.980 --> 00:11:50.919 you know, plant at the site to help perpetuate 00:11:50.919 --> 00:11:54.740 the species. And, you know, also, it's just an 00:11:54.740 --> 00:11:57.639 unfair advantage to legal dealers who are doing 00:11:57.639 --> 00:12:00.100 everything right. And then you might have somebody 00:12:00.100 --> 00:12:02.279 who's up in a hall or somewhere and just trying 00:12:02.279 --> 00:12:05.940 to beat the system. They buy, you know, ginseng 00:12:05.940 --> 00:12:08.059 without a license, and then they sell quantities 00:12:08.059 --> 00:12:10.019 to people who have a license. So they're taken 00:12:10.019 --> 00:12:12.539 away from the legal dealers who are actually 00:12:12.539 --> 00:12:16.299 following the legal system. And then I assume 00:12:16.299 --> 00:12:19.419 it's illegal to collect period inside a national 00:12:19.419 --> 00:12:22.470 park, right? Yes, National Park. It's illegal 00:12:22.470 --> 00:12:25.629 to collect the US Forest Service. A vast majority 00:12:25.629 --> 00:12:28.129 of Western North Carolina and East Tennessee 00:12:28.129 --> 00:12:31.289 is also Forest Service lands. And there used 00:12:31.289 --> 00:12:34.330 to be a lawful season where you could go in and 00:12:34.330 --> 00:12:37.350 dig, and then the population has started to decline. 00:12:37.870 --> 00:12:39.950 So then there was a permit system where you had 00:12:39.950 --> 00:12:42.009 to get a permit system to dig it and you were 00:12:42.009 --> 00:12:45.730 allowed to dig one. wet pound or green ginseng 00:12:45.730 --> 00:12:48.610 that weighed a pound. And then things even got 00:12:48.610 --> 00:12:51.110 worse. So they started to have a lottery and 00:12:51.110 --> 00:12:53.690 you have to plan a lottery to get a permit that 00:12:53.690 --> 00:12:55.529 did ginseng. They've only allowed for so many 00:12:55.529 --> 00:12:58.230 on Forest Service property. And then the population 00:12:58.230 --> 00:13:00.590 continued to dwindle where now, and I think until 00:13:00.590 --> 00:13:05.149 this day, the harvest of wild American ginseng 00:13:05.149 --> 00:13:07.669 on Forest Service lands is still closed in Western 00:13:07.669 --> 00:13:12.070 North Carolina. Wow. Okay. So population of wild 00:13:12.070 --> 00:13:14.490 ginseng declined and then that makes poaching 00:13:14.490 --> 00:13:17.649 and trafficking in it even more critical to address, 00:13:17.649 --> 00:13:20.929 right? Right. You mentioned close to the national 00:13:20.929 --> 00:13:23.649 park and there is a national park that straddles 00:13:23.649 --> 00:13:26.129 both Tennessee and North Carolina, the Great 00:13:26.129 --> 00:13:28.940 Smoky Mountains National Park. And so where's 00:13:28.940 --> 00:13:31.259 the best place to dig ginseng where it's always 00:13:31.259 --> 00:13:34.240 closed? So the National Park has a lot of ginseng. 00:13:35.019 --> 00:13:37.539 Exactly. And that's true with a lot of species 00:13:37.539 --> 00:13:40.740 that are illegally poached or taken, both plant 00:13:40.740 --> 00:13:44.799 and animal. Often the targeted areas are the 00:13:44.799 --> 00:13:47.860 areas where it's closed, right? Correct. Because 00:13:47.860 --> 00:13:50.440 you don't have to compete with anybody else, 00:13:50.460 --> 00:13:52.480 or at least you don't have to compete with any 00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:56.269 other legal collectors out there. All you have 00:13:56.269 --> 00:13:58.490 to do is compete with law enforcement officers. 00:13:58.490 --> 00:14:03.009 Um, uh, how many over your career, how many ginseng 00:14:03.009 --> 00:14:08.409 cases do you think you worked? Uh, just cases, 00:14:08.409 --> 00:14:14.509 uh, uh, a handful in those cases were multi -defendants, 00:14:14.629 --> 00:14:17.350 you know, 20, 30 defendants. So, uh, you know, 00:14:17.350 --> 00:14:22.899 I ran personally three undercover investigations 00:14:22.899 --> 00:14:25.340 that were multiple years. So over that time, 00:14:25.340 --> 00:14:27.220 there's a lot of different dealers and diggers 00:14:27.220 --> 00:14:30.539 involved in that. Gotcha. Well, let's talk about 00:14:30.539 --> 00:14:32.539 one of those cases in particular. I think it 00:14:32.539 --> 00:14:35.799 was a guy you investigated called named Johnny 00:14:35.799 --> 00:14:38.940 Grooms, right? That's correct. Yeah. Tell us 00:14:38.940 --> 00:14:41.100 a little bit about that. How did you come, how 00:14:41.100 --> 00:14:43.259 did Johnny Grooms come to your attention and 00:14:43.259 --> 00:14:46.220 how did you get involved in a criminal investigation 00:14:46.220 --> 00:14:50.200 related to him and ginseng? Well, Johnny Grooms, 00:14:51.509 --> 00:14:56.190 He came on the radar several times, but this 00:14:56.190 --> 00:14:59.389 case involved Special Agent Ryan Knoll on the 00:14:59.389 --> 00:15:01.429 Knoxville, Tennessee office where he received 00:15:01.429 --> 00:15:06.529 a call from the TWA or the Tennessee Wildlife 00:15:06.529 --> 00:15:09.809 Resources Agency, which is the state wildlife 00:15:09.809 --> 00:15:14.570 agency from the wildlife officer. Substantiating 00:15:14.570 --> 00:15:17.350 that Johnny Grooms was buying ginseng illegally 00:15:17.350 --> 00:15:22.750 without a license from the park. grocery store 00:15:22.750 --> 00:15:24.769 right outside of the Great Smoky Mountains National 00:15:24.769 --> 00:15:27.909 Park. And so Ryan started to look into it. And 00:15:27.909 --> 00:15:29.809 then about a month later, he got another phone 00:15:29.809 --> 00:15:34.269 call from a district ranger from the Great Smoky 00:15:34.269 --> 00:15:37.370 Mountains National Park telling Ryan that, hey, 00:15:38.029 --> 00:15:40.190 we believe there are people going into the park, 00:15:40.669 --> 00:15:43.549 harvesting ginseng and selling it to Johnny Grooms. 00:15:44.679 --> 00:15:48.039 So Ryan, knowing that I had been involved with 00:15:48.039 --> 00:15:50.700 several ginseng cases, Ryan was new to that duty 00:15:50.700 --> 00:15:52.720 station. He called me up and asked me if I knew 00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:55.460 Johnny Grooms. And I said, oh, most definitely 00:15:55.460 --> 00:15:58.440 I know Johnny Grooms. So about three years later 00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:01.200 when I was running one of the undercover investigations, 00:16:02.139 --> 00:16:04.440 Johnny called me. I was a licensed dealer in 00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:07.539 undercover capacity. And it's not unusual for 00:16:07.539 --> 00:16:09.740 dealers or diggers to call licensed dealers. 00:16:10.139 --> 00:16:13.159 chat them up and price. What do you think the 00:16:13.159 --> 00:16:15.220 season is going to be like? So that's what that's 00:16:15.220 --> 00:16:17.940 how I first had my introduction to Johnny. So 00:16:17.940 --> 00:16:20.620 we talked about prices and where I thought the 00:16:20.620 --> 00:16:23.600 market was going. And he said, stay in touch, 00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:26.820 come by, introduce yourself. So I went over and 00:16:26.820 --> 00:16:29.919 talked to Johnny and introduced myself. He had 00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:32.480 showed me some ginseng that he had. He told me 00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:35.360 he had several pounds there, but at the time 00:16:35.360 --> 00:16:40.149 he didn't want to sell it. Johnny As an individual, 00:16:41.250 --> 00:16:47.870 um, he, I don't know if he just was burned out 00:16:47.870 --> 00:16:50.529 or a lot of stress in his life. He talked about 00:16:50.529 --> 00:16:52.429 kind of marbles in his mouth. He's a very hard 00:16:52.429 --> 00:16:55.909 guy to understand, but through all this and talking 00:16:55.909 --> 00:16:59.269 briefly with Johnny, um, you know, the spidey 00:16:59.269 --> 00:17:01.330 sense came up that there's a lot going on at 00:17:01.330 --> 00:17:04.900 this place. And Johnny sort of gave me the runaround. 00:17:04.980 --> 00:17:06.900 He wanted a lot of money for his ginseng, which 00:17:06.900 --> 00:17:08.779 wasn't market value. And I wasn't willing to 00:17:08.779 --> 00:17:11.519 pay it for above market value. So I basically 00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:15.140 just walked away. So that was my first association 00:17:15.140 --> 00:17:18.319 with Johnny. And that was like three years before 00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:22.460 Ryan called you? Correct. Gotcha. And so Ryan 00:17:22.460 --> 00:17:24.599 asked me if I could go over and chat him up and 00:17:24.599 --> 00:17:26.660 just talk to him and do a reintroduction and 00:17:26.660 --> 00:17:29.799 maybe build some rapport. So I went and talked 00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:32.700 with Johnny, met with him. Again, I said he was 00:17:32.700 --> 00:17:37.799 kind of an aloof person, but also scatterbrained. 00:17:38.099 --> 00:17:42.420 And I said, hey, so I am. I was wondering if 00:17:42.420 --> 00:17:45.299 you had any ginseng to sell. And he misunderstood 00:17:45.299 --> 00:17:47.180 me and thought I was trying to sell ginseng. 00:17:47.559 --> 00:17:49.279 I was like, no, I'm a dealer. And then it kind 00:17:49.279 --> 00:17:51.000 of clicked to him. And it was like, oh, yeah, 00:17:51.000 --> 00:17:53.779 we met before. And so it was instant rapport 00:17:53.779 --> 00:17:55.920 with Johnny. And again, we went through the same 00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:58.579 thing, talking about prices and what he thought 00:17:58.579 --> 00:18:03.730 the market was going to be. So by this time it 00:18:03.730 --> 00:18:08.549 was later in the year after Ryan had kind of 00:18:08.549 --> 00:18:13.630 started looking into it and we just kind of talked 00:18:13.630 --> 00:18:15.829 a little bit and so Ryan kind of started moving 00:18:15.829 --> 00:18:19.170 forward on going through the process of about 00:18:19.639 --> 00:18:21.839 starting undercover investigation. And as you 00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:24.099 know, there's a lot of paperwork to jump to. 00:18:24.680 --> 00:18:27.279 Yeah. You know, Ryan did the heavy lifting on 00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:29.920 that. You know, I got to do the fun part. But 00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:32.839 so Ryan, you know, eventually got everything 00:18:32.839 --> 00:18:35.099 going. And so we were kind of sort of off to 00:18:35.099 --> 00:18:38.819 the races at that point. Gotcha. You know, you 00:18:38.819 --> 00:18:42.539 mentioned that Johnny kind of he spoke with a 00:18:42.539 --> 00:18:44.740 heavy Southern accent, I assume. Right. And then 00:18:44.740 --> 00:18:47.700 on top of that, maybe had some way of speaking 00:18:47.700 --> 00:18:49.559 that made it even more difficult to understand 00:18:49.559 --> 00:18:52.539 him? Yeah, he certainly did. You know, obviously, 00:18:52.740 --> 00:18:55.759 I didn't grow up in the South. I don't, you know, 00:18:55.799 --> 00:19:00.759 have a Southern accent. Johnny had a really harsh 00:19:00.759 --> 00:19:05.599 East Tennessee accent. And so it was often hard 00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:07.960 to understand what he was saying. But, you know, 00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:11.400 I've been around a lot of folks during my ginseng 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:14.380 investigations. And, you know, I started to understand 00:19:14.380 --> 00:19:18.059 him pretty good. But a point that comes up is 00:19:18.059 --> 00:19:20.319 when you're cutting audio tapes and you're having 00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:23.500 to transcribe audio tapes for the U .S. Attorney's 00:19:23.500 --> 00:19:26.680 Office in prosecution, it was a nightmare for 00:19:26.680 --> 00:19:30.380 folks to try to work on those tapes that you 00:19:30.380 --> 00:19:36.839 transcribed. I'll bet. I'll bet. Boy, I have 00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:39.519 two questions related to this. One is, first 00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:41.279 of all, can you kind of just tell us what Johnny 00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:49.650 looked like? Johnny was very thin. He obviously, 00:19:49.690 --> 00:19:54.630 you know, was white, you know, had a mustache. 00:19:56.950 --> 00:19:59.230 I'm assuming he used drugs. I never saw him use 00:19:59.230 --> 00:20:02.309 drugs, but kind of sort of if you want to think 00:20:02.309 --> 00:20:05.769 of a stereotypical alcoholic person, you know, 00:20:05.869 --> 00:20:08.710 very thin and emaciated. And that was kind of 00:20:08.710 --> 00:20:12.519 history. Gotcha. And then you also mentioned 00:20:12.519 --> 00:20:16.420 that once Agent Ryan Knowles kind of asked you 00:20:16.420 --> 00:20:20.200 to do the undercover work on this case, you already 00:20:20.200 --> 00:20:24.500 had prior contact with Johnny Grooms. And so 00:20:24.500 --> 00:20:27.079 you just kind of went into this store. And this 00:20:27.079 --> 00:20:28.880 is like one of those stores that's right outside 00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:31.240 the National Park where tourists can stop and 00:20:31.240 --> 00:20:33.559 get drinks and chips and stuff like that, right? 00:20:34.779 --> 00:20:38.470 Yeah, that's correct. The park entrance grocery 00:20:38.470 --> 00:20:41.410 store is right outside the boundary of Great 00:20:41.410 --> 00:20:44.769 Smoky Mountains National Park in Cosby, Tennessee, 00:20:45.029 --> 00:20:48.910 which is in Cock County. Cock County is somewhat 00:20:48.910 --> 00:20:51.549 of a notorious county. There have been several 00:20:51.549 --> 00:20:54.630 federal investigations there regarding chop shops 00:20:54.630 --> 00:21:01.190 of cars, prostitution, state political corruption. 00:21:01.329 --> 00:21:03.829 There was a big investigation there right kind 00:21:03.829 --> 00:21:06.589 of when Ryan's investigation was a beginning 00:21:06.589 --> 00:21:10.210 that had culminated Operation rose thorn and 00:21:10.210 --> 00:21:13.690 that investigation had to deal with some corrupt 00:21:13.690 --> 00:21:17.130 police officers in the local town and county 00:21:17.130 --> 00:21:22.849 sheriffs that were involved in Some activities 00:21:22.849 --> 00:21:26.130 with regards to distribution of cocaine and money 00:21:26.130 --> 00:21:31.819 laundering and the FBI also in this investigation 00:21:31.819 --> 00:21:35.259 took down a big cockfighting arena. There was 00:21:35.259 --> 00:21:37.799 approximately 200 people that were charged in 00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:45.099 that for gambling and cockfighting. So it's an 00:21:45.099 --> 00:21:46.960 interesting place, but it's also a beautiful 00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:49.140 place. You know, lots of fishing there, lots 00:21:49.140 --> 00:21:51.539 of whitewater rafting. It's of course like on 00:21:51.539 --> 00:21:53.720 the doorstep to the Great Smoky Mountains National 00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:56.680 Park. But you talked about the store, the park 00:21:56.680 --> 00:21:59.970 entrance grocery store. You know, you could buy 00:21:59.970 --> 00:22:02.509 a bag of chips there or soda, but there wasn't 00:22:02.509 --> 00:22:04.730 much else in there like some old camping gear. 00:22:04.970 --> 00:22:08.210 And it was certainly what we would call classify 00:22:08.210 --> 00:22:11.089 a storefront for a drug operation. And that was 00:22:11.089 --> 00:22:13.710 found out pretty quickly. That was a front. Interesting. 00:22:14.589 --> 00:22:17.869 So, you know, given that county's history, you 00:22:17.869 --> 00:22:21.269 mentioned, you know, police and corruption involved 00:22:21.269 --> 00:22:23.990 there. That's like kind of your worst nightmare 00:22:23.990 --> 00:22:26.309 to be working in a county where you're an undercover. 00:22:26.750 --> 00:22:29.829 you know, law enforcement officer and the local 00:22:29.829 --> 00:22:33.029 law enforcement may not be trustworthy, right? 00:22:33.329 --> 00:22:36.829 That's kind of a scary situation. Yeah, that's 00:22:36.829 --> 00:22:39.750 correct. Yeah, that's tough. So given that you 00:22:39.750 --> 00:22:42.490 are not a Southerner, you've got, you know, you 00:22:42.490 --> 00:22:46.369 were not born and raised in that area and the 00:22:46.369 --> 00:22:48.950 county has already kind of had this massive, 00:22:48.950 --> 00:22:53.279 you know, influx of federal law enforcement there 00:22:53.279 --> 00:22:55.660 for other investigations. Why do you think you 00:22:55.660 --> 00:22:57.500 were able to build rapport with Johnny Grooms 00:22:57.500 --> 00:22:59.779 so quickly? Was he like really naive or was he 00:22:59.779 --> 00:23:04.339 a paranoid kind of guy? He was both actually, 00:23:04.420 --> 00:23:10.400 but he trusted me. He was very paranoid. The 00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:12.640 park entrance grocery store, when you walked 00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:15.200 in the store, Johnny had a bank of about four 00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:17.779 televisions that were on and they were all on 00:23:17.779 --> 00:23:22.130 different channels. volume was turned up loud 00:23:22.130 --> 00:23:25.109 there was an old if you could picture a creaky 00:23:25.109 --> 00:23:29.329 ceiling fan going you know in the store and it 00:23:29.329 --> 00:23:31.089 was very loud in there and I don't know if he 00:23:31.089 --> 00:23:35.349 did that specifically to the tier you know people 00:23:35.349 --> 00:23:37.710 coming in there who's gonna try to record him 00:23:37.710 --> 00:23:42.690 doing illegal activities but also he was trustworthy 00:23:42.690 --> 00:23:46.029 to me because throughout my friendship with him 00:23:46.029 --> 00:23:50.470 I never screwed him yeah in fact on A couple 00:23:50.470 --> 00:23:54.170 of buys that I did with Johnny, he brought more 00:23:54.170 --> 00:23:56.769 ginseng, or the people he sent me to sell me 00:23:56.769 --> 00:23:59.890 the ginseng, brought more ginseng than I was 00:23:59.890 --> 00:24:02.630 anticipating. So I only had so much cash on him. 00:24:03.009 --> 00:24:05.470 So I'd have to say, hey, John, I owe you a couple 00:24:05.470 --> 00:24:08.089 thousand bucks. And he was fine with that. The 00:24:08.089 --> 00:24:11.170 next time we met, I gave him the money. We always 00:24:11.170 --> 00:24:13.970 settled up. So he really trusted me. And whatever 00:24:13.970 --> 00:24:18.609 we agreed on doing, I always did it. Gotcha. 00:24:19.160 --> 00:24:21.539 So you were probably the most trustworthy or 00:24:21.539 --> 00:24:24.619 the most reliable person he dealt with in what 00:24:24.619 --> 00:24:28.440 he was doing, right? That's correct. So once 00:24:28.440 --> 00:24:31.519 you got into it, you reestablished this relationship 00:24:31.519 --> 00:24:34.940 with him again. Like, what did you discover he 00:24:34.940 --> 00:24:39.259 was up to? Well, the first time that I went... 00:24:39.369 --> 00:24:41.970 in september which the ginseng season opens then 00:24:41.970 --> 00:24:44.750 so it's a good time to go in and talk about ginseng 00:24:44.750 --> 00:24:46.990 you know we're talking about prices and dealers 00:24:46.990 --> 00:24:49.769 and markets you know what's going on and he shows 00:24:49.769 --> 00:24:53.109 me a half a pound of dried ginseng he just immediately 00:24:53.109 --> 00:24:55.569 starts talking about you know illegal activities 00:24:55.569 --> 00:24:58.130 i mean that that first meeting with him was very 00:24:58.130 --> 00:25:00.470 productive and i don't think ryan's undercar 00:25:00.470 --> 00:25:03.650 investigation was even open at that time i mean 00:25:03.650 --> 00:25:06.170 he mentioned that he knew diggers were going 00:25:06.170 --> 00:25:09.490 in the park He told me he was selling green or 00:25:09.490 --> 00:25:11.990 fresh, undried ginseng to a Korean individual. 00:25:13.329 --> 00:25:15.769 I had asked him at that time, are you going to 00:25:15.769 --> 00:25:17.750 fool with a license this year? And he's like, 00:25:17.910 --> 00:25:20.349 no, I don't even know how much they cost. And 00:25:20.349 --> 00:25:22.750 while I'm in the store, a gentleman approaches 00:25:22.750 --> 00:25:26.289 the counter. And so I was like a sense that he 00:25:26.289 --> 00:25:28.390 wants to talk to Johnny. So I step away from 00:25:28.390 --> 00:25:31.589 the counter and I could hear him talking to Johnny. 00:25:31.769 --> 00:25:34.319 Johnny pulls out a pill bottle. and puts a pill 00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:37.180 on the countertop. The person hands Johnny some 00:25:37.180 --> 00:25:42.039 cash, puts the pill in his pocket. So I could 00:25:42.039 --> 00:25:44.119 hear him talking about hydros, which I'm assuming 00:25:44.119 --> 00:25:46.500 at the time is hydrocodone, which is an opioid. 00:25:47.180 --> 00:25:50.890 And so, you know, I'm getting all this. No great 00:25:50.890 --> 00:25:53.369 information from a law enforcement standpoint 00:25:53.369 --> 00:25:56.490 you're in the first introduction reintroduction 00:25:56.490 --> 00:25:59.410 with johnny i also tells me about a digger that 00:25:59.410 --> 00:26:02.170 he recently met from kentucky who just came out 00:26:02.170 --> 00:26:05.289 of the park with a sack of ginseng. And you don't 00:26:05.289 --> 00:26:07.390 talk and i say yeah i heard that they mark the 00:26:07.390 --> 00:26:10.650 ginseng in the park. And he's like, yeah, they 00:26:10.650 --> 00:26:13.089 put these little pieces of wire in there and 00:26:13.089 --> 00:26:15.289 they have a scanner and they could scan it and 00:26:15.289 --> 00:26:17.730 tell if the ginseng came from the park and how 00:26:17.730 --> 00:26:22.589 also died this ginseng. And so his culpability 00:26:22.589 --> 00:26:25.710 already at this point and, you know, substantiation 00:26:25.710 --> 00:26:27.869 for the fish and wildlife service at that point, 00:26:28.029 --> 00:26:30.730 it was just phenomenal. Yeah. You have no worries 00:26:30.730 --> 00:26:33.549 about entrapping him here at all, right? None 00:26:33.549 --> 00:26:36.769 at all. None at all. None at all. And, you know, 00:26:36.829 --> 00:26:38.509 what year is this? What year are we talking about? 00:26:40.029 --> 00:26:44.849 2008. So yeah, opiate crisis is kind of just 00:26:44.849 --> 00:26:47.089 it's going hard right then right in that region 00:26:47.089 --> 00:26:50.529 of the country. Yeah, you know, in the in the 00:26:50.529 --> 00:26:52.690 in the mid 2000, you know, the country was facing 00:26:52.690 --> 00:26:56.289 this opioid crisis and high drug overdoses and 00:26:56.289 --> 00:26:58.490 particularly in the rural Appalachian state, 00:26:58.490 --> 00:27:01.500 you know, and it It was deeply affecting, you 00:27:01.500 --> 00:27:05.480 know, folks that drug epidemic at the time. So 00:27:05.480 --> 00:27:08.160 now you've got your, you know, you've got information 00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:11.819 that he's potentially involved in trafficking 00:27:11.819 --> 00:27:15.680 opioids as well. I mean, at some point you learned 00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:18.140 that some other agencies were interested in grooms 00:27:18.140 --> 00:27:22.480 too, right? Exactly. So Ryan's doing the heavy 00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:24.680 lifting. He's jumping through the hoops with 00:27:24.680 --> 00:27:28.920 our agency to get everything approved. We have 00:27:28.920 --> 00:27:30.859 certain parameters that we have to follow, which 00:27:30.859 --> 00:27:33.599 are all good things. And so Ryan contacts the 00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:37.400 U .S. Attorney's office in Knoxville there to 00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:40.400 get support for the investigation, to prosecute 00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:43.200 any defendants that come up like we always do. 00:27:43.759 --> 00:27:48.070 And so the U .S. Attorney's office says, The 00:27:48.070 --> 00:27:52.250 FBI and the DEA and the TBI the Tennessee Bureau 00:27:52.250 --> 00:27:55.450 of Investigation actually have their eye on Johnny 00:27:55.450 --> 00:27:58.210 and they suspect he's involved in a prostitution 00:27:58.210 --> 00:28:02.210 ring and a drug ring. And so we would certainly 00:28:02.210 --> 00:28:05.150 like to join forces and work with you guys so 00:28:05.150 --> 00:28:08.380 that that was a big help. to the investigation 00:28:08.380 --> 00:28:10.660 to know that somebody could do the heavy lifting 00:28:10.660 --> 00:28:13.839 on the drug side of things. You bet. And I'll 00:28:13.839 --> 00:28:16.640 bet you anything that the FBI and the DEA and 00:28:16.640 --> 00:28:20.000 the TBI were pretty damn excited when they heard 00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:24.579 that there was already a UC special agent infiltrating 00:28:24.579 --> 00:28:28.180 Johnny Grooms. I mean, that's like a great scenario 00:28:28.180 --> 00:28:32.779 for them. They were and you know, I'm obviously 00:28:32.779 --> 00:28:35.140 working selfishly the ginseng angle, you know, 00:28:35.180 --> 00:28:38.400 I'm trying to see the big picture and you know, 00:28:39.220 --> 00:28:41.000 so Johnny and I are still talking on the phone 00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:43.180 all the time. What's the prices? I have not bought 00:28:43.180 --> 00:28:45.200 any ginseng from him, you know, in September 00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:48.380 the season's open. I'm trying to go slow, you 00:28:48.380 --> 00:28:52.259 know, and build rapport with Johnny and I sense 00:28:52.259 --> 00:28:55.500 the DEA is getting a little And see, you know, 00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:57.819 let's get this thing rolling on the dress. I, 00:28:57.940 --> 00:29:00.819 you know, so I hop on my truck and I, you know, 00:29:00.859 --> 00:29:04.839 go over to give Johnny another visit. And, uh, 00:29:04.839 --> 00:29:07.180 again, we just start where we left off. He's 00:29:07.180 --> 00:29:09.559 asking me if I know anyone who sells pills, you 00:29:09.559 --> 00:29:11.859 know, we started chatting about marijuana, you 00:29:11.859 --> 00:29:14.900 know, eventually goes to cocaine and you talking 00:29:14.900 --> 00:29:18.420 about paranoia. Before that, he's telling me, 00:29:18.700 --> 00:29:21.079 like, hey, we talk on the phone. Be very concerned 00:29:21.079 --> 00:29:23.000 about what you're saying to me. I think the police 00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:25.400 are monitoring my phone. If you want to talk 00:29:25.400 --> 00:29:28.319 about drugs, we should use code words. So if 00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:30.500 you, you know, I'm not asking to buy anything 00:29:30.500 --> 00:29:33.240 yet. Right. You know, I'm telling Johnny that, 00:29:33.240 --> 00:29:36.039 you know, basically I'm all about money, making 00:29:36.039 --> 00:29:38.599 money, whichever way we can. You help me, I'll 00:29:38.599 --> 00:29:42.240 help you. And, uh, you know, it's all good with 00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:45.839 me. So he tells me well if you want cocaine you 00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:49.160 know just call her instead of calling in a rock 00:29:49.160 --> 00:29:51.420 say one of big ginseng root and i don't know 00:29:51.420 --> 00:29:54.099 what you're talking about he even goes on the 00:29:54.099 --> 00:29:56.579 talk about what types of vehicles that you behind 00:29:56.579 --> 00:30:00.279 the drive while out for them if we're gonna meet 00:30:00.279 --> 00:30:02.339 we're gonna meet you know the bridge don't come 00:30:02.339 --> 00:30:04.400 on the weekends cuz the police are always around 00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:07.680 the weekend he was very astute to what the local 00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:10.430 happenings were there what was going on. I had 00:30:10.430 --> 00:30:14.869 mentioned earlier about that investigation, Operation 00:30:14.869 --> 00:30:17.230 Rose Thorn, that had culminated right at the 00:30:17.230 --> 00:30:20.809 time Brian's investigation was starting. In the 00:30:20.809 --> 00:30:23.390 store there at the park entrance grocery store, 00:30:23.769 --> 00:30:27.769 Johnny had a plaque that read, I survived Operation 00:30:27.769 --> 00:30:32.809 Rose Thorn. I wonder if he had that made or if 00:30:32.809 --> 00:30:34.950 somebody gave it to him. Yeah. I don't know if 00:30:34.950 --> 00:30:38.950 it was the badge of honor or what, but he was 00:30:38.950 --> 00:30:42.329 definitely paranoid. He showed me an RF detector 00:30:42.329 --> 00:30:44.589 that he had in the store in case anybody came 00:30:44.589 --> 00:30:48.029 in and was running a radio frequency to record 00:30:48.029 --> 00:30:51.569 or body wire. And I'm not sure if it worked, 00:30:51.829 --> 00:30:54.549 but it certainly got my hackles up when I was 00:30:54.549 --> 00:30:57.549 going in there to chat them up and talk with 00:30:57.549 --> 00:31:01.730 them. You bet that would be something to be very 00:31:01.730 --> 00:31:05.930 concerned about if you were an undercover law 00:31:05.930 --> 00:31:08.029 enforcement officer going in, and somebody is 00:31:08.029 --> 00:31:11.829 that paranoid, and they're actually taking positive 00:31:11.829 --> 00:31:15.450 steps to counteract surveillance equipment. You 00:31:15.450 --> 00:31:17.589 definitely would not want that RF detector to 00:31:17.589 --> 00:31:21.029 go off when you walked in the door, right? Right. 00:31:21.670 --> 00:31:25.609 Back to me mentioning that the DEA might have 00:31:25.609 --> 00:31:28.930 been getting a little antsy. You know, they're 00:31:28.930 --> 00:31:31.569 all ready for the fish and wildlife and me specifically 00:31:31.569 --> 00:31:34.230 to, you know, try to buy drugs with Johnny. And 00:31:34.230 --> 00:31:38.769 I'm all for, you know, working with other agencies. 00:31:39.970 --> 00:31:43.250 And so, you know, they want me to go in next 00:31:43.250 --> 00:31:47.910 and buy some cocaine. And again, I'm agreeable 00:31:47.910 --> 00:31:51.150 to that. But I want to be cross designated authority 00:31:51.150 --> 00:31:56.509 with the DEA, because as you know, we Our authority, 00:31:56.690 --> 00:31:58.549 especially with the fish and wildlife, is pretty 00:31:58.549 --> 00:32:01.190 specific to fish, wildlife, plants. We enforce, 00:32:01.190 --> 00:32:05.049 you know, Title 1618, the drug Title 21. It's 00:32:05.049 --> 00:32:07.849 not something that we did. So I always wanted 00:32:07.849 --> 00:32:10.130 to make sure that, you know, liability -wise 00:32:10.130 --> 00:32:12.609 I was covered. You know, if something went bad, 00:32:12.670 --> 00:32:15.910 you know, somebody shot me or I shot them, I 00:32:15.910 --> 00:32:18.029 didn't want to be hung out to dry. So, you know, 00:32:18.029 --> 00:32:20.309 they understood that. And so they said, okay, 00:32:20.390 --> 00:32:22.490 we'll run it up the chain. You know, they come 00:32:22.490 --> 00:32:25.549 back. Okay, you're good to go. It's, you know, 00:32:25.630 --> 00:32:27.750 go in there and try to buy some drugs. And I'm 00:32:27.750 --> 00:32:30.390 like, yeah, but I want, you know, the piece of 00:32:30.390 --> 00:32:33.789 paper with the official cross designation authority 00:32:33.789 --> 00:32:36.809 that says, you know, Tom and Ryan could do these 00:32:36.809 --> 00:32:39.890 things and, you know, we're in a joint operation 00:32:39.890 --> 00:32:44.789 with the DEA. They're like okay and then I think 00:32:44.789 --> 00:32:47.190 basically what happens is our sack our special 00:32:47.190 --> 00:32:49.769 agent charge, you know Contacts the special agent 00:32:49.769 --> 00:32:52.809 charge for the DEA and they work it out and then 00:32:52.809 --> 00:32:56.250 it took a while So we're talking about September 00:32:56.250 --> 00:32:58.650 and then November I met him It took about to 00:32:58.650 --> 00:33:01.750 January for Ryan and I to get that cross -designation 00:33:01.750 --> 00:33:04.230 authority and you know I was being a stickler 00:33:04.230 --> 00:33:07.039 about it and I knew that they weren't too excited 00:33:07.039 --> 00:33:09.079 because their case was rolling and obviously 00:33:09.079 --> 00:33:11.900 they wanted to get going. But I was in the timeout 00:33:11.900 --> 00:33:14.019 mode, like, look, I've got to have this piece 00:33:14.019 --> 00:33:17.380 of paper. And eventually we worked it out. Yeah. 00:33:17.380 --> 00:33:19.740 And I don't blame you for doing that. And it's 00:33:19.740 --> 00:33:21.579 kind of interesting. I think it'll be interesting 00:33:21.579 --> 00:33:24.299 to non -law enforcement listeners of the podcast 00:33:24.299 --> 00:33:28.700 that what's portrayed on TV about the conflict 00:33:28.700 --> 00:33:31.839 between different agencies and how the FBI is 00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:34.220 often portrayed as walking in and taking over 00:33:34.220 --> 00:33:38.049 cases, That actually doesn't really happen very 00:33:38.049 --> 00:33:40.990 often in real life. Most of the time, agencies 00:33:40.990 --> 00:33:43.869 work very fluidly together, very cooperatively. 00:33:44.609 --> 00:33:47.849 But there are sometimes these weird bureaucratic 00:33:47.849 --> 00:33:50.670 things where, like you said, you wanted to be 00:33:50.670 --> 00:33:53.089 cross -designated, which basically just means 00:33:53.089 --> 00:33:57.710 that the DEA is deputizing you, that you have 00:33:57.710 --> 00:34:00.289 authority to enforce their primary statutes. 00:34:01.009 --> 00:34:03.569 And like you said, from your perspective, you're 00:34:03.450 --> 00:34:05.190 you're the guy going in there has got to meet 00:34:05.190 --> 00:34:09.449 with this bad guy who now is into ginseng, opioids, 00:34:09.849 --> 00:34:13.309 cocaine, marijuana, likely when that kind of 00:34:13.309 --> 00:34:15.829 money is involved, people will kill you for that 00:34:15.829 --> 00:34:18.929 kind of stuff. And yeah, if something really 00:34:18.929 --> 00:34:21.750 went bad, you want to make sure that it's in 00:34:21.750 --> 00:34:25.730 writing, in a file, that everybody knew that 00:34:25.730 --> 00:34:28.230 Tom Chizdok was working under the authority of 00:34:28.230 --> 00:34:34.159 the DEA and the FBI for sure. So on this, we're 00:34:34.159 --> 00:34:36.420 getting away from ginseng a little bit, but I 00:34:36.420 --> 00:34:39.820 think it's really interesting. How did he orchestrate 00:34:39.820 --> 00:34:42.019 getting his opioids? Because you were telling 00:34:42.019 --> 00:34:44.119 me about that, and I found that really interesting, 00:34:44.840 --> 00:34:47.440 his roots and his method for getting his hands 00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:50.739 on opioids. Yeah, we certainly got away from 00:34:50.739 --> 00:34:53.960 ginseng, but we eventually circled back around 00:34:53.960 --> 00:35:01.099 after a while there. What Johnny was doing is 00:35:01.099 --> 00:35:06.099 He would encourage people to go down to what 00:35:06.099 --> 00:35:09.659 referred to at the time as pill mills in Florida 00:35:09.659 --> 00:35:13.260 so a lot of people were going down the floor 00:35:13.260 --> 00:35:17.659 at the time and they would go To certain areas 00:35:17.659 --> 00:35:22.039 that were having portable MRI station set up 00:35:22.039 --> 00:35:24.239 so you could go get MRI and show that there was 00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:25.780 something wrong with you and then you could just 00:35:25.780 --> 00:35:29.880 go into any drugstore down there with your prescription 00:35:29.880 --> 00:35:31.280 that they would give you and they would give 00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:34.559 you you know 150 200 you know hydros or roxies 00:35:34.559 --> 00:35:39.539 you know even Oxycontin and that was it. You 00:35:39.539 --> 00:35:41.940 know, we know about, uh, you know, what's kind 00:35:41.940 --> 00:35:44.199 of happened to some of the big pharma because 00:35:44.199 --> 00:35:47.280 of that. Right. But so he would just encourage 00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:49.400 people to go down and do that. And they would 00:35:49.400 --> 00:35:52.780 get a script of, uh, an opioid and they would 00:35:52.780 --> 00:35:55.260 bring it back and sell some of those pills to 00:35:55.260 --> 00:35:57.920 Johnny. And so Johnny was selling them for about 00:35:57.920 --> 00:36:01.440 a dollar a gram. So if there was a 30 gram, uh, 00:36:01.539 --> 00:36:04.360 hydro, you know, we 30 bucks, it was 40 grams. 00:36:04.539 --> 00:36:09.199 It was $40. And as things moved on and the DEA 00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:14.039 did a lot more background work, by the end of 00:36:14.039 --> 00:36:17.940 this, he was actually paying people to fly down 00:36:17.940 --> 00:36:21.239 to Florida. There was a Legionnaire that would 00:36:21.239 --> 00:36:24.900 fly out of East Tennessee down to Florida. He'd 00:36:24.900 --> 00:36:28.019 buy them a hotel. They would go get their MRI, 00:36:28.179 --> 00:36:29.619 they would get their prescriptions, and they 00:36:29.619 --> 00:36:33.420 would start to get the prescription filled at 00:36:33.420 --> 00:36:36.170 different areas. In fact, one time he told me 00:36:36.170 --> 00:36:38.829 that he was talking to a pharmacist in Tennessee, 00:36:39.570 --> 00:36:42.130 if people could bring prescriptions back from 00:36:42.130 --> 00:36:45.289 Florida and have them filled in Tennessee, because 00:36:45.289 --> 00:36:48.710 what was happening is he would front people money 00:36:48.710 --> 00:36:52.630 to do this and they would be, you know, eating 00:36:52.630 --> 00:36:55.730 the pills, stealing his money. And that kind 00:36:55.730 --> 00:36:58.170 of gets back to the trust for me. Like I never 00:36:58.170 --> 00:37:01.300 ripped him off. Right. So he. He specifically 00:37:01.300 --> 00:37:03.039 told me about this pharmacist that he talked 00:37:03.039 --> 00:37:04.380 to and said, you know, could they bring them 00:37:04.380 --> 00:37:06.619 back and bring him in the store and get the prescriptions 00:37:06.619 --> 00:37:10.480 filled. And the pharmacist says, yeah, I don't, 00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:12.360 I don't think so that, you know, you should be 00:37:12.360 --> 00:37:14.639 doing that. You know, the pharmacist could get 00:37:14.639 --> 00:37:16.519 in trouble. And Johnny's comment was like, well, 00:37:16.619 --> 00:37:18.440 look, they'll have to arrest every damn pharmacy 00:37:18.440 --> 00:37:20.480 in Florida because you just get your prescription 00:37:20.480 --> 00:37:23.909 walk in and get it filled. He wasn't. I mean, 00:37:24.090 --> 00:37:26.070 that was going on for a number of years till 00:37:26.070 --> 00:37:28.550 the DEA stepped in and like shut all that down 00:37:28.550 --> 00:37:31.269 with these mobile MRIs and, you know, a quick 00:37:31.269 --> 00:37:33.489 prescription. You know, you fill them and that 00:37:33.489 --> 00:37:36.010 was it. Crazy. And, you know, because you were 00:37:36.010 --> 00:37:38.769 trustworthy, did he ever try to recruit you to 00:37:38.769 --> 00:37:40.889 go down and be a mule to bring opioids back? 00:37:41.619 --> 00:37:45.500 He did. In fact, one time when I was in the store, 00:37:45.639 --> 00:37:49.139 he pulled out a notebook and he drew the schematic 00:37:49.139 --> 00:37:52.239 for me on how this works. I couldn't figure out 00:37:52.239 --> 00:37:55.360 how to get from the airport to the hotel. He 00:37:55.360 --> 00:37:57.920 drew it all out on a piece of paper and he'd 00:37:57.920 --> 00:37:59.820 tell me, okay, you need to buy this plane ticket. 00:38:00.099 --> 00:38:02.780 This is how much this costs. You get a hotel 00:38:02.780 --> 00:38:04.619 room down there and this is how much this costs. 00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:06.820 You know, you go, you get your MRI, they're going 00:38:06.820 --> 00:38:08.860 to charge a little bit and then you get the prescription 00:38:08.860 --> 00:38:11.219 and I'll buy all the pills that you bring back. 00:38:11.820 --> 00:38:14.019 Wow. He actually literally mapped it out on a 00:38:14.019 --> 00:38:16.159 notebook piece of paper to show me how to do 00:38:16.159 --> 00:38:19.119 that. Wow. And you know, on this regard, were 00:38:19.119 --> 00:38:22.000 you ever asked to do drugs with him or anything 00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:26.519 like that? Never. Okay. And I never portrayed 00:38:26.519 --> 00:38:31.699 myself as a user. Right. What I had told Johnny 00:38:31.699 --> 00:38:33.699 is that I had a friend in North Carolina who 00:38:33.699 --> 00:38:36.880 did sell drugs. And, you know, he was always 00:38:36.880 --> 00:38:40.219 looking for new sources to purchase drugs from. 00:38:41.019 --> 00:38:43.719 And so I, you know, circled back to the, you 00:38:43.719 --> 00:38:46.860 know, I'm just here to make money, Johnny, anyway 00:38:46.860 --> 00:38:50.300 I can. I'm interested in doing drugs. You know, 00:38:50.380 --> 00:38:55.280 the closest that it came is... When I did buy 00:38:55.280 --> 00:38:57.780 an ounce of cocaine from Johnny and he put it 00:38:57.780 --> 00:38:59.519 up to his nose and smell that and he put it up 00:38:59.519 --> 00:39:04.739 to my nose and somebody much more popular than 00:39:04.739 --> 00:39:10.300 me. I didn't inhale. I just kind of gave it the 00:39:10.300 --> 00:39:12.360 old. Oh, yeah. Okay. That's good. And I had no 00:39:12.360 --> 00:39:16.360 idea. Right. And one of the things that he did 00:39:16.360 --> 00:39:19.690 do is he would bring out a variety of pills and 00:39:19.690 --> 00:39:21.570 he would put them on the counter when I was there. 00:39:21.590 --> 00:39:23.889 And he would say, this is a hydro. This is 30 00:39:23.889 --> 00:39:28.650 milligrams. This is Oxycontin. This is a Roxy. 00:39:28.690 --> 00:39:31.070 And he would show me these pills and tell me 00:39:31.070 --> 00:39:33.929 all about them while I was there. And why he 00:39:33.929 --> 00:39:37.230 did that, I don't know, but he wanted to buy 00:39:37.230 --> 00:39:40.030 pills from me. He was in the make of money. And 00:39:40.030 --> 00:39:42.349 like I said, quite frankly, he just trusted me. 00:39:42.570 --> 00:39:45.210 Yeah. I mean, I think I bet that's why he was 00:39:45.210 --> 00:39:48.440 doing it. He just had his fingers crossed that 00:39:48.440 --> 00:39:51.320 here's a guy I can rely on. He wanted to recruit 00:39:51.320 --> 00:39:55.300 you into his pill mill situation because he couldn't 00:39:55.300 --> 00:39:57.420 trust his other mules. I'm sure that's what it 00:39:57.420 --> 00:40:00.840 was. Oh, and just the people who were buying 00:40:00.840 --> 00:40:05.400 from him like a pill at a time. After we got 00:40:05.400 --> 00:40:09.179 the authority to work cross -designation, I was 00:40:09.179 --> 00:40:14.530 in the store. A woman buys a pill from, you know, 00:40:14.690 --> 00:40:16.289 and hands him a little bit of money. And then 00:40:16.289 --> 00:40:18.710 he writes down on a piece of paper, basically, 00:40:18.789 --> 00:40:22.530 an IOU on a ledger that he has there. And he's 00:40:22.530 --> 00:40:24.750 just saying, this is my life. All these people 00:40:24.750 --> 00:40:27.090 owe me money. And he's like, this is only a third 00:40:27.090 --> 00:40:29.550 of the people who owe me money. And so, you know, 00:40:29.550 --> 00:40:31.929 he was always fronting people or only taking, 00:40:31.929 --> 00:40:34.710 you know, a certain amount with, you know, he 00:40:34.710 --> 00:40:41.220 was a nice guy. I mean, he was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, 00:40:41.220 --> 00:40:43.719 it's the interesting thing we could talk for 00:40:43.719 --> 00:40:46.199 probably another hour about is when you're working 00:40:46.199 --> 00:40:48.699 undercover how you you do build relationships 00:40:48.699 --> 00:40:51.519 with the people you're working and It's it's 00:40:51.519 --> 00:40:54.800 an interesting kind of phenomenon really You 00:40:54.800 --> 00:40:57.559 know, so you're doing some buys on behalf of 00:40:57.559 --> 00:41:00.980 DEA FBI You're helping them make their case, 00:41:00.980 --> 00:41:03.500 but presumably you're still working the ginseng 00:41:03.500 --> 00:41:07.750 angle to Did you start buying ginseng from him 00:41:07.750 --> 00:41:09.829 or how did it work? What happened with the ginseng? 00:41:10.989 --> 00:41:16.050 Yeah, I did. Ironically, the DEA's case really 00:41:16.050 --> 00:41:21.289 took off. Johnny had given me a sample of some 00:41:21.289 --> 00:41:23.650 cocaine. Of course, they sent it to their lab, 00:41:23.949 --> 00:41:26.110 tested it's cocaine. Then I went back and I bought 00:41:26.110 --> 00:41:30.809 some cocaine from Johnny. And shortly thereafter, 00:41:31.090 --> 00:41:35.349 so that was in February. And by September, they 00:41:35.349 --> 00:41:38.530 executed a search warrant on Johnny, on his business. 00:41:38.530 --> 00:41:42.329 While your case is still going on. Whoa, okay. 00:41:42.670 --> 00:41:45.510 Exactly. So they executed a search warrant in 00:41:45.510 --> 00:41:49.710 September on Johnny's store, on his home, and 00:41:49.710 --> 00:41:51.989 a car lot that I believe he was affiliated with. 00:41:52.369 --> 00:41:54.949 And basically I see some pill bottles and a couple 00:41:54.949 --> 00:41:58.190 hundred opioid pills. uh, some drug ledgers that 00:41:58.190 --> 00:42:00.130 I talked about, you know, where he writes down 00:42:00.130 --> 00:42:05.530 these IO use and, uh, some firearms. Okay. So 00:42:05.530 --> 00:42:08.929 after that point, that was in September of 2009, 00:42:08.929 --> 00:42:11.829 uh, you know, Johnny had always had ginseng and 00:42:11.829 --> 00:42:14.429 he just wasn't selling. He was always waiting 00:42:14.429 --> 00:42:17.289 for the price to go up. So come November that 00:42:17.289 --> 00:42:20.050 year, uh, you know, prices are going up a little 00:42:20.050 --> 00:42:24.079 bit and he wants, uh, You know some cash so he 00:42:24.079 --> 00:42:26.719 calls me up and he wants to sell some ginseng 00:42:26.719 --> 00:42:30.579 so. He tells me that he's got some guys that 00:42:30.579 --> 00:42:32.880 are going down to florida mind you you know two 00:42:32.880 --> 00:42:34.940 months later there's just a search warrant executed 00:42:34.940 --> 00:42:38.119 on his business for the sale and distribution 00:42:38.119 --> 00:42:40.619 of drugs right he's got people going down to 00:42:40.619 --> 00:42:43.519 florida to pick up pills for him so he's like 00:42:43.519 --> 00:42:45.440 cook i'm gonna send this guy over and meet with 00:42:45.440 --> 00:42:49.099 him and uh he's gonna bring some ginseng and 00:42:49.099 --> 00:42:51.289 if you could pay him for it. That's great. So 00:42:51.289 --> 00:42:56.030 I do meet a guy in North Carolina, and he's with 00:42:56.030 --> 00:42:58.269 some other, you know, guys that are going down 00:42:58.269 --> 00:43:01.610 to Florida to pick up pills for Johnny. He gives 00:43:01.610 --> 00:43:03.809 me the ginseng, I buy it, give him the money. 00:43:04.210 --> 00:43:07.429 And, you know, those guys are on their way. So 00:43:07.429 --> 00:43:11.929 regarding our regulations, Johnny is an unlicensed 00:43:11.929 --> 00:43:15.610 dealer. So he's buying ginseng illegally. So 00:43:15.610 --> 00:43:18.679 that ginseng is tainted that he purchases. in 00:43:18.679 --> 00:43:21.579 violation of Tennessee state law. The guys he 00:43:21.579 --> 00:43:24.539 gives it to on his behalf transports it to interstate 00:43:24.539 --> 00:43:27.860 commerce. Right. And sells it. So, you know, 00:43:27.860 --> 00:43:30.599 that's your basic LACIAC violation right there. 00:43:30.780 --> 00:43:33.860 Yep. Yep. And presumably worth more than $300. 00:43:34.099 --> 00:43:38.079 So it's a felony, right? Correct. Yes. Okay. 00:43:38.480 --> 00:43:41.860 Nice. Okay. Yeah, go ahead. And so this kind 00:43:41.860 --> 00:43:45.960 of continues. Yeah. So later in November, Johnny 00:43:45.960 --> 00:43:49.079 calls me up. He's got some more ginseng to sell. 00:43:50.659 --> 00:43:54.300 He wants to meet me. That first meeting, talking 00:43:54.300 --> 00:43:56.380 about officer safety, it was in the daylight. 00:43:56.500 --> 00:43:58.840 It was off an exit in a very populated area. 00:43:59.019 --> 00:44:01.219 Felt pretty good. The next night when Johnny's, 00:44:01.380 --> 00:44:03.380 or excuse me, the next sale when Johnny's coming 00:44:03.380 --> 00:44:06.440 over, it's getting later at night. I'm in a parking 00:44:06.440 --> 00:44:08.400 lot and he's calling me, telling me when he's 00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:14.090 gonna come. I guess it's derogatory, but on doper 00:44:14.090 --> 00:44:16.869 time, it just never works out. You know, you 00:44:16.869 --> 00:44:19.449 say six o 'clock, it becomes seven o 'clock and 00:44:19.449 --> 00:44:22.250 it becomes eight o 'clock. We're almost there, 00:44:22.449 --> 00:44:26.650 Tom, we're almost there. So, you know, they finally 00:44:26.650 --> 00:44:31.769 show up and they're in a van. They pull in, you 00:44:31.769 --> 00:44:34.369 know, Johnny knows my vehicle and five people 00:44:34.369 --> 00:44:37.250 jump out and I'm like, am I going to get robbed? 00:44:37.309 --> 00:44:41.219 You know, what's happening here? And they'll 00:44:41.219 --> 00:44:43.219 have to go to the bathroom. So they all run out 00:44:43.219 --> 00:44:45.079 and Johnny comes over and I'm like, well, I guess 00:44:45.079 --> 00:44:49.500 that's not what's gonna happen. And you know, 00:44:49.539 --> 00:44:52.639 you bring up a good point though, because we 00:44:52.639 --> 00:44:55.260 deal with this all the time. Like, you know, 00:44:55.500 --> 00:44:57.820 when anybody who does undercover work deals with 00:44:57.820 --> 00:44:59.920 this all the time, and it doesn't matter whether 00:44:59.920 --> 00:45:02.920 you have a cover team on you or not, you cannot 00:45:02.920 --> 00:45:06.139 predict who's gonna show up to a meeting. And 00:45:06.139 --> 00:45:08.619 so, you know, like you said, they might be an 00:45:08.619 --> 00:45:10.800 hour or two late. And if they're starting to 00:45:10.800 --> 00:45:14.519 push it into darkness, that changes the safety 00:45:14.519 --> 00:45:17.699 issues. And then, yeah, like you said, you might 00:45:17.699 --> 00:45:21.119 be planning to meet with one guy, but you can't 00:45:21.119 --> 00:45:23.559 control who that person brings with them. And 00:45:23.559 --> 00:45:27.739 that is something that all officers who do undercover 00:45:27.739 --> 00:45:29.539 work have to deal with, and they have to accept 00:45:29.539 --> 00:45:33.219 that risk and be ready to go with the flow and 00:45:33.219 --> 00:45:35.590 wing it. and make a decision whether you're going 00:45:35.590 --> 00:45:37.849 to stay or whether you're going to get out of 00:45:37.849 --> 00:45:44.110 there, right? But scary, scary situation. Yeah. 00:45:47.369 --> 00:45:51.369 Yes, exactly. Exactly. So you, yeah, go ahead, 00:45:51.429 --> 00:45:53.409 go ahead. You're making these deals. You know, 00:45:53.409 --> 00:45:56.289 he jumps in the truck and he just immediately 00:45:56.289 --> 00:45:59.190 starts telling me about the DEA executing a search 00:45:59.190 --> 00:46:01.250 warrant on his place. Awesome. He's like, Tom, 00:46:01.409 --> 00:46:03.369 I had marijuana and cocaine, but they didn't 00:46:03.369 --> 00:46:07.409 find it. Nice. Like, he's just like, he's just 00:46:07.409 --> 00:46:10.750 happy as ever could be. Nice. He's talking about 00:46:10.750 --> 00:46:12.989 the search warrant, what's going on. And he's 00:46:12.989 --> 00:46:15.590 got me in tears that he's just yucking it up. 00:46:15.630 --> 00:46:19.210 And he said, Tom, they had a drug dog and damn 00:46:19.210 --> 00:46:21.889 it, that dog crap right in the middle of my floor. 00:46:22.050 --> 00:46:25.050 And he was just like, I'm telling that agent, 00:46:25.210 --> 00:46:27.690 they got to clean this up. This is not right. 00:46:27.989 --> 00:46:30.389 Like there's, there's nothing going on in his 00:46:30.389 --> 00:46:32.730 life. I'm like, man, I'd be scared. You know, 00:46:32.789 --> 00:46:35.289 like, you know, they just executed a search warrant 00:46:35.289 --> 00:46:37.610 and I'm going down the floor to get more pills. 00:46:39.070 --> 00:46:41.289 And he's telling you that they missed the place 00:46:41.289 --> 00:46:43.449 where he had all the contraband hidden, right? 00:46:44.289 --> 00:46:46.989 Exactly. Unbelievable. That's actually maybe 00:46:46.989 --> 00:46:48.869 a good reason why they did the warrant in the 00:46:48.869 --> 00:46:50.550 middle of your investigation, because you got 00:46:50.550 --> 00:46:53.130 to hear from him what he thought of the whole 00:46:53.130 --> 00:46:56.130 search warrant. Interesting. Sure. Interesting. 00:46:56.909 --> 00:46:59.650 It enabled them to start looking at airplane 00:46:59.650 --> 00:47:02.610 records, manifests, who was on there, who was 00:47:02.610 --> 00:47:05.309 going down, who was coming back, where these 00:47:05.309 --> 00:47:10.480 prescriptions were being filled. their case really 00:47:10.480 --> 00:47:14.179 took off. That's great. Awesome. And how much 00:47:14.179 --> 00:47:16.159 ginseng are you buying from him at this point? 00:47:18.059 --> 00:47:23.159 You know, I met with Johnny on five occasions 00:47:23.159 --> 00:47:27.420 and I bought almost 36 pounds of ginseng. And 00:47:27.420 --> 00:47:29.780 I was paying anywhere between, at that time, 00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:34.719 $400 and $600 a pound. So we paid Johnny just 00:47:34.719 --> 00:47:38.380 over $18 ,000. Okay. For ginseng. And then there 00:47:38.380 --> 00:47:42.480 was the drug stuff in between. So he's doing 00:47:42.480 --> 00:47:45.659 this illegally because he's not a licensed ginseng 00:47:45.659 --> 00:47:48.659 dealer. Did you get any evidence that he was 00:47:48.659 --> 00:47:52.039 buying from illegal collectors so that the ginseng 00:47:52.039 --> 00:47:55.510 he was getting wasn't legal anyway? Right certainly 00:47:55.510 --> 00:48:01.150 did and it was just really a stroke of luck But 00:48:01.150 --> 00:48:03.170 you know, I guess as a saying around here goes 00:48:03.170 --> 00:48:06.369 even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while, 00:48:06.369 --> 00:48:14.289 but So ginseng the formula is basically 300 ginseng 00:48:14.289 --> 00:48:17.130 roots equals one pound of ginseng when it dries 00:48:17.130 --> 00:48:21.530 out. Okay, so so we purchased about 36 pounds 00:48:21.530 --> 00:48:25.860 of ginseng and All the ginseng that we would 00:48:25.860 --> 00:48:29.860 buy, we actually went ahead and blacklighted 00:48:29.860 --> 00:48:34.239 it. Remember when Johnny talked about the ginseng 00:48:34.239 --> 00:48:36.920 in the park having dye on it? Yeah, was that 00:48:36.920 --> 00:48:41.059 true? Was that real? In fact, it is. A gentleman 00:48:41.059 --> 00:48:43.460 from the North Carolina Department of Agriculture 00:48:43.460 --> 00:48:49.619 and Consumer Services, Jim Corbin, he dreamed 00:48:49.619 --> 00:48:52.079 up an event at this program where he created 00:48:52.079 --> 00:48:56.030 a dye that Initially, they would put it at the 00:48:56.030 --> 00:48:59.130 base of the ginseng root and spray some glue 00:48:59.130 --> 00:49:03.190 on it, and this fluorescent dye would adhere 00:49:03.190 --> 00:49:05.909 to the plant. Eventually, he had it being absorbed 00:49:05.909 --> 00:49:11.329 up into the plant. Jim was a mastermind. He every 00:49:11.329 --> 00:49:13.769 year would do what he called the blitz into the 00:49:13.769 --> 00:49:15.969 Great Smoky Mountains National Park, and he would 00:49:15.969 --> 00:49:18.610 get as many people as he could that was interested 00:49:18.610 --> 00:49:20.829 in going to the back country, and they would 00:49:20.829 --> 00:49:23.860 just locate ginseng. pull back the dirt and the 00:49:23.860 --> 00:49:26.940 duff and they would apply this dye, spray it 00:49:26.940 --> 00:49:29.500 on or have it come out in the uproot. And so 00:49:29.500 --> 00:49:33.400 the ginseng actually glowed when you would put 00:49:33.400 --> 00:49:36.900 a light over it, a black light. And we did find 00:49:36.900 --> 00:49:42.159 a few pieces of ginseng that actually had fluorescent 00:49:42.159 --> 00:49:44.840 dye on it. And so Ryan took that to the park 00:49:44.840 --> 00:49:46.739 and they looked at it and they wrote up a nice 00:49:47.619 --> 00:49:49.659 professional opinion that yes, in fact, this 00:49:49.659 --> 00:49:52.860 is our dye. Jim was so into it that he actually 00:49:52.860 --> 00:49:55.019 created different colors and different markers 00:49:55.019 --> 00:49:57.199 and dyes. So in different areas, like in the 00:49:57.199 --> 00:49:59.239 forest service, they would use a different color. 00:49:59.780 --> 00:50:04.679 Right. Jim, you know, I want to call Jim out 00:50:04.679 --> 00:50:07.980 because he was just a great associate of mine. 00:50:08.059 --> 00:50:11.159 He helped me so much. The North Carolina Wildlife 00:50:11.159 --> 00:50:14.650 Resources, excuse me, the North Carolina Department 00:50:14.650 --> 00:50:17.090 of Ag and Consumer Services, their Plant Protection 00:50:17.090 --> 00:50:20.949 Division, they're regulatory. So a lot of the 00:50:20.949 --> 00:50:25.090 ginseng overseers in the state are regulatory. 00:50:25.710 --> 00:50:27.690 There's a big difference between a regulatory 00:50:27.690 --> 00:50:31.869 agency and a law enforcement agency. So they're 00:50:31.869 --> 00:50:34.389 really not doing enforcement and it's hard for 00:50:34.389 --> 00:50:38.719 them to get people to fall in line with the laws 00:50:38.719 --> 00:50:40.800 and regulations. You know, basically they just 00:50:40.800 --> 00:50:43.380 tell them, don't do this. Jim had a heart of 00:50:43.380 --> 00:50:46.239 gold and he would call me up all the time and 00:50:46.239 --> 00:50:48.239 never want anything in return. He would tell 00:50:48.239 --> 00:50:50.679 me, Tom, you need to look at this person. I would 00:50:50.679 --> 00:50:53.260 say, Jim, can you get me records? You know, so 00:50:53.260 --> 00:50:55.639 I could do a record investigation on things. 00:50:55.800 --> 00:50:58.780 And he was just a great asset to the U .S. Fish 00:50:58.780 --> 00:51:01.039 and Wildlife Service. That's the way it's supposed 00:51:01.039 --> 00:51:03.940 to be. And I love hearing that because it makes 00:51:03.940 --> 00:51:07.710 your job so much easier. And that's the way it's 00:51:07.710 --> 00:51:09.690 supposed to work, public service. We're supposed 00:51:09.690 --> 00:51:13.869 to cooperate. That's great. Exactly. So when 00:51:13.869 --> 00:51:16.929 you finally took this case down, what was the 00:51:16.929 --> 00:51:20.050 outcome? What happened to Johnny? How was he 00:51:20.050 --> 00:51:23.599 charged? And what was the sentence? Yeah, so 00:51:23.599 --> 00:51:28.059 you know we we've we US official we the US Fish 00:51:28.059 --> 00:51:30.800 and Wildlife Service finished up our buys in 00:51:30.800 --> 00:51:34.639 like February 2010 Okay, and so then you know 00:51:34.639 --> 00:51:37.380 all the paperwork begins to get people charged 00:51:37.380 --> 00:51:40.119 work with US Attorney's Office You know a couple 00:51:40.119 --> 00:51:45.179 different agencies working together Johnny was 00:51:45.179 --> 00:51:49.900 Indicted in August of 2010 Okay. A few months 00:51:49.900 --> 00:51:52.480 later, he was indicted. There are two superseding 00:51:52.480 --> 00:51:55.599 indictments on that. And he was eventually charged 00:51:55.599 --> 00:52:01.019 with 19 counts. Wow. Including seven for felony 00:52:01.019 --> 00:52:03.500 Lacey at counts, which we were pretty proud of, 00:52:03.519 --> 00:52:06.199 you know, absolutely going on to get some Lacey 00:52:06.199 --> 00:52:12.820 at charges. Of course. Absolutely. Johnny, he 00:52:12.820 --> 00:52:16.000 went to trial in May of 2011. The wheels of justice 00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:19.579 move slow, as you know. So he had a four -day 00:52:19.579 --> 00:52:22.840 trial. And he was convicted, I believe, on all 00:52:22.840 --> 00:52:26.940 charges. Wow. And I'm going to ask you a little 00:52:26.940 --> 00:52:28.880 bit about that trial in a second. We're going 00:52:28.880 --> 00:52:32.739 to wrap up pretty soon. But what was the sentence 00:52:32.739 --> 00:52:36.429 on that? Uh, Johnny was actually sentenced to 00:52:36.429 --> 00:52:39.750 24 years for drug and felony Lacey act violations. 00:52:39.989 --> 00:52:44.150 Wow. That is an awesome sentence. Yeah. And it 00:52:44.150 --> 00:52:46.309 was basically a death sentence for Johnny. I 00:52:46.309 --> 00:52:49.170 mean, at the time when he was, uh, convicted, 00:52:49.369 --> 00:52:53.710 he was 59 and he, he, he did pass away after 00:52:53.710 --> 00:52:57.110 serving 12 years. Wow. Also two, two other gentlemen 00:52:57.110 --> 00:53:00.860 were convicted of felony Lacey act that You remember 00:53:00.860 --> 00:53:03.139 I talked about meeting other people. They were 00:53:03.139 --> 00:53:06.000 both charged and convicted, and did a small sentence 00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:09.980 for those two. So Ryan got two extra charges 00:53:09.980 --> 00:53:12.099 out of that. Excellent. That's always good to 00:53:12.099 --> 00:53:14.400 wrap up as many people as you can in one case. 00:53:15.199 --> 00:53:18.019 What was Johnny's reaction when he found out? 00:53:18.059 --> 00:53:20.320 Because presumably you testified in the trial. 00:53:20.920 --> 00:53:23.039 What was his reaction when he found out that 00:53:23.039 --> 00:53:26.400 this guy he trusted so much had been an undercover 00:53:26.400 --> 00:53:29.480 Fish and Wildlife Special Agent? Yeah, that's 00:53:29.480 --> 00:53:32.039 always a strange feeling it is on the stand and 00:53:32.039 --> 00:53:34.320 you look across and you know you have to identify 00:53:34.320 --> 00:53:37.619 the defendant and he just kind of looked down 00:53:37.619 --> 00:53:41.539 and you know, he I Think at that time he started 00:53:41.539 --> 00:53:44.039 to realize all the things that he told me of 00:53:44.039 --> 00:53:46.300 course his attorney had all the reports and everything 00:53:46.300 --> 00:53:50.659 to read, you know pretrial but you know, it's 00:53:50.659 --> 00:53:54.019 hard from a sometimes from an agent's perspective 00:53:54.019 --> 00:53:56.360 when you know you're working these people and 00:53:56.360 --> 00:53:59.119 you know he's doing bad things and I'm starting 00:53:59.119 --> 00:54:01.699 to feel about like hey you know the money we're 00:54:01.699 --> 00:54:04.760 paying Johnny's helping to subsidize this drug 00:54:04.760 --> 00:54:06.840 trafficking thing you know and that that started 00:54:06.840 --> 00:54:09.500 to weigh on me pretty heavy but you know you 00:54:09.500 --> 00:54:11.780 kind of keep your eye on the prize what's happening 00:54:11.780 --> 00:54:13.820 and you know you're looking for the end goal 00:54:13.820 --> 00:54:15.559 and you know if you could take out Johnny that 00:54:15.559 --> 00:54:17.820 community is going to be a lot safer a lot better 00:54:17.820 --> 00:54:22.510 for people in that community so it It was a good 00:54:22.510 --> 00:54:24.750 feeling, you know, actually also to look across 00:54:24.750 --> 00:54:27.170 the table and see Johnny there and to think that, 00:54:27.170 --> 00:54:29.150 you know, we all did a good job, all agencies 00:54:29.150 --> 00:54:32.449 collectively together. Absolutely. And as we've 00:54:32.449 --> 00:54:34.429 said many times on this podcast, you know, the 00:54:34.429 --> 00:54:37.530 law really has no impact if there aren't consequences, 00:54:37.989 --> 00:54:41.289 right? Right. And I always found it very strange 00:54:41.289 --> 00:54:45.110 to be sitting across a courtroom looking at people 00:54:45.110 --> 00:54:49.690 I had spent months or more years working undercover 00:54:49.690 --> 00:54:53.300 and now they The realization is setting in with 00:54:53.300 --> 00:54:55.420 them. I'm in a suit and tie, I'm clean shaven, 00:54:55.440 --> 00:54:58.380 and now I'm Special Agent Ed Newcomer. It's kind 00:54:58.380 --> 00:55:02.179 of a surreal experience. But the other thing 00:55:02.179 --> 00:55:04.260 you mentioned is that I think all undercover, 00:55:04.480 --> 00:55:07.480 any officer, actually undercover or overt cases, 00:55:07.699 --> 00:55:10.179 casework, you always have this dilemma of when 00:55:10.179 --> 00:55:13.559 do you take the case down? And there's some point 00:55:13.559 --> 00:55:15.579 you reach where you've got enough evidence and 00:55:15.579 --> 00:55:18.820 you can't allow crime to continue anymore. And 00:55:18.820 --> 00:55:21.559 it's time to take the case down, right? And I 00:55:21.559 --> 00:55:25.900 think sometimes law enforcement officers, they 00:55:25.900 --> 00:55:28.400 can't make the decision, right? And they kind 00:55:28.400 --> 00:55:31.300 of let the case go too long or too short or whatever. 00:55:31.860 --> 00:55:34.139 It's a hard one. It's definitely hard. It is. 00:55:34.400 --> 00:55:36.780 Yeah. There's definitely the right time to do 00:55:36.780 --> 00:55:40.880 that. And it's out the Assistant United States 00:55:40.880 --> 00:55:44.219 Attorney that was involved in the case. You know, 00:55:44.500 --> 00:55:47.340 he was outstanding on that as well. Neil Smith, 00:55:47.380 --> 00:55:51.320 you know, he knew what he needed and, you know, 00:55:52.000 --> 00:55:53.400 he called it when it should have been called. 00:55:53.659 --> 00:55:56.559 Yeah. Good. Well, you know, I just think this 00:55:56.559 --> 00:55:58.800 case is fascinating, of course, because I worked 00:55:58.800 --> 00:56:01.019 most of my career on the West Coast. I never 00:56:01.019 --> 00:56:04.500 did any ginseng cases. So this has been really 00:56:04.500 --> 00:56:07.420 educational for me to hear from you. talk about 00:56:07.420 --> 00:56:10.239 the case. And I think it's also really interesting 00:56:10.239 --> 00:56:12.760 because we often talk about how wildlife trafficking 00:56:12.760 --> 00:56:16.800 overlaps with other, wildlife and plant trafficking 00:56:16.800 --> 00:56:19.719 overlaps with other types of crimes. But this 00:56:19.719 --> 00:56:24.659 is a really interesting case that shows how a 00:56:24.659 --> 00:56:27.139 trafficker is a trafficker. And if they see another 00:56:27.139 --> 00:56:29.039 opportunity to make money illegally, whether 00:56:29.039 --> 00:56:33.860 it's drugs, guns, humans, they'll do it. The 00:56:33.860 --> 00:56:35.880 last thing before we sign off, which I think 00:56:35.880 --> 00:56:38.260 is kind of interesting, I'd love it for you to 00:56:38.260 --> 00:56:42.340 tell our listeners and viewers what happened 00:56:42.340 --> 00:56:45.920 to that grocery store outside the park shortly 00:56:45.920 --> 00:56:53.739 after this case. Yeah, sad and tragic. But there 00:56:53.739 --> 00:56:57.500 was an apartment down in the basement section 00:56:57.500 --> 00:56:59.880 of the park entrance grocery store that Johnny 00:56:59.880 --> 00:57:05.679 had rented out. A guy actually shot and killed 00:57:05.679 --> 00:57:08.500 his girlfriend in that basement at the end of 00:57:08.500 --> 00:57:11.599 this investigation. And then it eventually burned 00:57:11.599 --> 00:57:14.619 down. Nobody really knows how, but it just kind 00:57:14.619 --> 00:57:19.199 of caught on fire one day. Kind of apropos. Yes. 00:57:19.500 --> 00:57:24.159 It's funny. I had a case like that where about 00:57:24.159 --> 00:57:27.059 three months after my undercover case closed, 00:57:28.500 --> 00:57:31.559 this vacant house that was up on a hill overlooking 00:57:31.719 --> 00:57:34.960 one of the main bad guys' house mysteriously 00:57:34.960 --> 00:57:39.000 burned to the ground. And I knew from doing my 00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:41.480 case that the bad guy suspected that surveillance 00:57:41.480 --> 00:57:44.659 was being done from that house. Now, nobody knows 00:57:44.659 --> 00:57:47.420 why that house burned down, but the timing of 00:57:47.420 --> 00:57:50.519 it is very suspicious after a major criminal 00:57:50.519 --> 00:57:55.519 case comes to close, right? Yeah. Interesting. 00:57:55.579 --> 00:57:57.219 There's probably more work to do in that county. 00:58:01.279 --> 00:58:04.099 But listen, Tom, I can't thank you enough for 00:58:04.099 --> 00:58:06.360 being on the show. I know you were a reluctant 00:58:06.360 --> 00:58:08.579 guest. And I twisted your arm and made you come 00:58:08.579 --> 00:58:10.500 on. And I really appreciate it. I think this 00:58:10.500 --> 00:58:12.860 is going to be a great episode. I think people 00:58:12.860 --> 00:58:16.039 are going to learn a lot. I certainly did. And 00:58:16.039 --> 00:58:18.699 I hope I can have you on to talk about other 00:58:18.699 --> 00:58:20.840 cases you've worked on over the years. But I'll 00:58:20.840 --> 00:58:23.579 twist your other arm later to get that done. 00:58:24.599 --> 00:58:26.980 I appreciate the opportunity, Ed, and I appreciate 00:58:26.980 --> 00:58:29.440 what you're doing telling stories of, you know, 00:58:29.719 --> 00:58:34.820 state and federal wildlife agents. Great. Thank 00:58:34.820 --> 00:58:37.840 you, Tom. It's great to see you again and hear 00:58:37.840 --> 00:58:41.699 your voice as well. And I hope you have a great 00:58:41.699 --> 00:58:44.659 rest of your week and everybody out there listening. 00:58:44.980 --> 00:58:47.500 Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you next time. 00:58:48.139 --> 00:58:49.980 Nature Secret Service is written and produced 00:58:49.980 --> 00:58:52.679 by me, Ed Newcomer. and is co -produced by the 00:58:52.679 --> 00:58:55.880 DHTV team here at California State University, 00:58:56.059 --> 00:58:58.440 Dominguez Hills. Follow us on social media and 00:58:58.440 --> 00:59:00.719 connect with us online at naturessecretservice 00:59:00.719 --> 00:59:01.320 .com.