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OK, people, listen up. Here we go. This is Nature's
Secret Service, the podcast that puts you in
the room with the men and women of wildlife law
enforcement. I'm at Newcomer, your host. And
before I introduce our guest today, I just want
to thank everybody who has signed up on the website
and is following us and subscribed. At this point
in the podcast, we're trying to build our viewership
and our listenership. If you can help us out
by rating us online or wherever you download
the podcast and make sure you sign up or subscribe
and go to the website and make sure you're signed
up for updates. All right. This week we have
a guest I've been looking forward to for a while.
Tom Chizdock is a retired U .S. Fish and Wildlife
Service Special Agent. He spent most of his career
working in the Southeastern U .S. He got his
start when he was a new agent working in the
Los Angeles field office. So Tom and I share
the same training officer. We were both trained
by Marie Palladini, who's been on the show before.
Tom retired from the US Fish and Wildlife Service
in 2019, and he shortly thereafter received the
Guy Bradley Award for Outstanding Career Service,
which is... a real accomplishment. The awards
named after the first conservation law enforcement
officer killed in the line of duty. And he definitely
had a stellar career. I've always admired the
work that he did, and I'm really happy to welcome
him on the show. Tom, thanks for being with us.
You're welcome, Matt. I appreciate it. I think
we're going to have a fun conversation today.
But I just wanted to point out that because you
had worked a I forget, you left LA just before
I arrived. So how long were you working in Los
Angeles? I worked in Los Angeles for just over
two years, and I transferred to Washington state
after that. Gotcha. Yep. And I think I came in
right after that because there were lots of Tom
Chisdok stories around the office when I arrived.
None of them good. All good, all good. And because
you had been in the field office where I eventually
worked, I, of course, know some agents who worked
with you. And before I came to the podcast recording
today, I called them and I asked them for some
comments about Tom Chistok or some thoughts.
And here's some words that came up. Integrity,
hard worker, creative undercover work. But this
is the one that really struck me, and that was,
always ate leftovers for lunch. That's true.
I'm a frugal guy. What's that about? Yeah, you
know, actually, I know exactly what that's about.
And that was, you were a new agent working in
Los Angeles, which is one of the most expensive
duty stations to live in. That's true. That's
what leftovers is all about. Hey, the other thing
we have in common, when you and I were talking
to prep for this, you and I both really wanted
to be special agents for US Fish and Wildlife
Service. And I was struck when you told me that
you had applied for the job five times. And that's
exactly how many times it took me to get hired
as well. And I think I really click with people
who really wanted the job, because I think like
you, Before I became a special agent for Fish
and Wildlife Service, I always looked at the
agents and I thought, man, these are some really
good agents. I mean, everything I ever read about
their cases, I just thought these are unbelievably
good investigators, extremely tenacious, and
I wanted to be part of that group. I think you
felt the same, didn't you? Exactly. You know,
I read an article. I don't know if it was from
the Federal Wildlife Officer Association or National
Geographic or something. but it was an operation
that occurred outside of Yellowstone National
Park, Operation Trophy Kill. And at the time
I was arranging with the park service and I read
that article and it just really hit me and struck
me and I was like, that's what I want to do.
I know exactly the article you're talking about
and I think it was Nat Geo and it was the agents
were working on outfitters or hunters that were
basically either sneaking into Yellowstone National
Park or they were luring Big Elk out of the park,
right? I can't remember, maybe both. Yeah, a
lot of big game. Yeah, I remember reading that
too. And it was one of many stories around that
time, late 90s, early to late 90s, I guess, that
really influenced me and made me think I got
to be part of this organization, right? Exactly.
You, when you, uh, eventually after LA, you went
to Washington state, but you eventually made
your way to the southeastern U S where you spent
a large part of your career and you really made
a name for yourself working on cases involving
ginseng. And I am guessing some of my listeners
will know what ginseng is, but some might not.
So can you explain to us a little bit about what
ginseng is and why it's a why it's of interest
to the U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service law enforcement.
Well, maybe like some of your listeners, when
I transferred to North Carolina, I didn't know
anything about ginseng. Trying to talk to sister
agencies and particularly the Park Service, I
quickly learned that there is quite the commercial
trade in wild American ginseng. Ginseng is a
deciduous type plant. that grows all along the
Appalachian trail, excuse me, the Appalachian
mountains. It'll even grow down as far south
as northern Mississippi and all the way up to
southern Canada. And it's a plant that grows
in shady areas. It's deciduous, so it comes up
in the spring and then it grows, forms berries
to reproduce. And then in the fall, October,
November, the leaves start to turn colors and
the foliage dies and it goes back down. And you
can't see it after that until the spring. pops
back up, so a perennial plant. Traditionally,
people have harvested ginseng and dug it and
sold it for commercial purposes. They use it
for medicinal purposes. Back when I first started,
about 90 -95 % of the wild American ginseng was
being exported out of this country. And so that's
how the Fish and Wildlife Service is involved
with that. It's regulated under CITES, Convention
on International Trade and Dangerous Species.
And that's overlaid on some state regulations.
You're required to have a dealer's license to
buy and sell it. There's permits that are required
to move it in interstate commerce. So it's a
commodity, but also it's a resource for a lot
of, has been a resource for a lot of mountain
folks. You know, traditionally they dug it. They
saved it till November to sell it to a dealer,
might have used it for Christmas money or something
like that. So it's really ingrained in the Southern
Appalachian Mountains and the people of the Southern
Appalachian Mountains. Like I said, there's a
legal season that starts generally in September
and goes through until the plant dies back. And
then the seasons close in the spring and summertime
to give the plant an opportunity to grow and
produce berries to reproduce. You told me something
interesting about ginseng that I didn't know.
I didn't know about the whole berry thing, but
associated with the legal trade where somebody
has a permit and they're doing everything legally
where they can collect it and potentially sell
it. With regard to those berries, there's something
very specific that a legal collector has to do.
Can you explain that a little bit? Yeah, so the
seasons generally begin about September 1 and
that allows the fruit to grow on the plant. and
literally to grow to fruition. And then when
you harvest the ginseng and there's berries on
the plant, you're required to plant the berries
at the site to propagate, you know, that species
for perpetuity. That is so interesting that it's
kind of built into the, to the legal framework
of the collection process. You actually have
to become a propagator as well as part of the
legal process. What's the market? You mentioned
that some ginseng goes overseas or a lot of it.
What's the market overseas for ginseng? It's
basically for traditional Chinese medicine, you
know, Eastern medicine, you know, a little different
than the medicine that we're used to in the Western
culture. But it's highly sought after, like other
types of commodities, you know, that we've dealt
with over our careers. You know, whether that's
bear bile, bear gallbladder, pangolin, all different
types of natural resources, whether they're plants
or animals used for medicinal purposes. Right,
right. And then I assume because it's listed
as CITES and I, you know, often I think, you
know, our agency was called U .S. Fish and Wildlife
Service. It had wildlife in it. There's no plant
named in the name of our agency. Most state agencies
do not have plants in their name. You know, many,
many species listed under the Endangered Species
Act in the United States are plants. And many,
many species listed under CITES are plants. And
so the agents of the US Fish and Wildlife Service
are responsible for enforcing those laws. So
we often do get involved in plant trafficking
or illegal plant collection cases. Can you describe
the illegal trade a little bit in ginseng? What's
the illegal trade, who's involved, and where's
it going? Like any item resource that's commercialized,
you generally have the legal trade, and then
there's what we often refer to as a black market
trade. And so with regards to ginseng, there
are dealers who do not want to go through the
proper channels to purchase a permit or a license
to deal in ginseng. It costs money to do that.
paperwork that's involved when a digger comes
in to sell ginseng, they've got to write down
the person's name, what county it was dug in,
how much they sold, and that's just to keep biological
tabs on the ginseng population to keep it safe
from extinction or over exploitation. But there
are some dealers who will operate without a license
because of that, and there are also a lot of
dealers or even diggers that will harvest and
purchase and sell ginseng prior to the season
opening in September. So when the first comes
up in, you know, early April or May, oftentimes
there are some people who are out there taking
advantage of the system. They're harvesting the
ginseng at that time and, you know, selling it
or holding it until the legal season opens. So
what's the big deal, right? Well, the big deal
is that those plants don't grow to fruition to
produce their seeds. So there's no seeds to,
you know, plant at the site to help perpetuate
the species. And, you know, also, it's just an
unfair advantage to legal dealers who are doing
everything right. And then you might have somebody
who's up in a hall or somewhere and just trying
to beat the system. They buy, you know, ginseng
without a license, and then they sell quantities
to people who have a license. So they're taken
away from the legal dealers who are actually
following the legal system. And then I assume
it's illegal to collect period inside a national
park, right? Yes, National Park. It's illegal
to collect the US Forest Service. A vast majority
of Western North Carolina and East Tennessee
is also Forest Service lands. And there used
to be a lawful season where you could go in and
dig, and then the population has started to decline.
So then there was a permit system where you had
to get a permit system to dig it and you were
allowed to dig one. wet pound or green ginseng
that weighed a pound. And then things even got
worse. So they started to have a lottery and
you have to plan a lottery to get a permit that
did ginseng. They've only allowed for so many
on Forest Service property. And then the population
continued to dwindle where now, and I think until
this day, the harvest of wild American ginseng
on Forest Service lands is still closed in Western
North Carolina. Wow. Okay. So population of wild
ginseng declined and then that makes poaching
and trafficking in it even more critical to address,
right? Right. You mentioned close to the national
park and there is a national park that straddles
both Tennessee and North Carolina, the Great
Smoky Mountains National Park. And so where's
the best place to dig ginseng where it's always
closed? So the National Park has a lot of ginseng.
Exactly. And that's true with a lot of species
that are illegally poached or taken, both plant
and animal. Often the targeted areas are the
areas where it's closed, right? Correct. Because
you don't have to compete with anybody else,
or at least you don't have to compete with any
other legal collectors out there. All you have
to do is compete with law enforcement officers.
Um, uh, how many over your career, how many ginseng
cases do you think you worked? Uh, just cases,
uh, uh, a handful in those cases were multi -defendants,
you know, 20, 30 defendants. So, uh, you know,
I ran personally three undercover investigations
that were multiple years. So over that time,
there's a lot of different dealers and diggers
involved in that. Gotcha. Well, let's talk about
one of those cases in particular. I think it
was a guy you investigated called named Johnny
Grooms, right? That's correct. Yeah. Tell us
a little bit about that. How did you come, how
did Johnny Grooms come to your attention and
how did you get involved in a criminal investigation
related to him and ginseng? Well, Johnny Grooms,
He came on the radar several times, but this
case involved Special Agent Ryan Knoll on the
Knoxville, Tennessee office where he received
a call from the TWA or the Tennessee Wildlife
Resources Agency, which is the state wildlife
agency from the wildlife officer. Substantiating
that Johnny Grooms was buying ginseng illegally
without a license from the park. grocery store
right outside of the Great Smoky Mountains National
Park. And so Ryan started to look into it. And
then about a month later, he got another phone
call from a district ranger from the Great Smoky
Mountains National Park telling Ryan that, hey,
we believe there are people going into the park,
harvesting ginseng and selling it to Johnny Grooms.
So Ryan, knowing that I had been involved with
several ginseng cases, Ryan was new to that duty
station. He called me up and asked me if I knew
Johnny Grooms. And I said, oh, most definitely
I know Johnny Grooms. So about three years later
when I was running one of the undercover investigations,
Johnny called me. I was a licensed dealer in
undercover capacity. And it's not unusual for
dealers or diggers to call licensed dealers.
chat them up and price. What do you think the
season is going to be like? So that's what that's
how I first had my introduction to Johnny. So
we talked about prices and where I thought the
market was going. And he said, stay in touch,
come by, introduce yourself. So I went over and
talked to Johnny and introduced myself. He had
showed me some ginseng that he had. He told me
he had several pounds there, but at the time
he didn't want to sell it. Johnny As an individual,
um, he, I don't know if he just was burned out
or a lot of stress in his life. He talked about
kind of marbles in his mouth. He's a very hard
guy to understand, but through all this and talking
briefly with Johnny, um, you know, the spidey
sense came up that there's a lot going on at
this place. And Johnny sort of gave me the runaround.
He wanted a lot of money for his ginseng, which
wasn't market value. And I wasn't willing to
pay it for above market value. So I basically
just walked away. So that was my first association
with Johnny. And that was like three years before
Ryan called you? Correct. Gotcha. And so Ryan
asked me if I could go over and chat him up and
just talk to him and do a reintroduction and
maybe build some rapport. So I went and talked
with Johnny, met with him. Again, I said he was
kind of an aloof person, but also scatterbrained.
And I said, hey, so I am. I was wondering if
you had any ginseng to sell. And he misunderstood
me and thought I was trying to sell ginseng.
I was like, no, I'm a dealer. And then it kind
of clicked to him. And it was like, oh, yeah,
we met before. And so it was instant rapport
with Johnny. And again, we went through the same
thing, talking about prices and what he thought
the market was going to be. So by this time it
was later in the year after Ryan had kind of
started looking into it and we just kind of talked
a little bit and so Ryan kind of started moving
forward on going through the process of about
starting undercover investigation. And as you
know, there's a lot of paperwork to jump to.
Yeah. You know, Ryan did the heavy lifting on
that. You know, I got to do the fun part. But
so Ryan, you know, eventually got everything
going. And so we were kind of sort of off to
the races at that point. Gotcha. You know, you
mentioned that Johnny kind of he spoke with a
heavy Southern accent, I assume. Right. And then
on top of that, maybe had some way of speaking
that made it even more difficult to understand
him? Yeah, he certainly did. You know, obviously,
I didn't grow up in the South. I don't, you know,
have a Southern accent. Johnny had a really harsh
East Tennessee accent. And so it was often hard
to understand what he was saying. But, you know,
I've been around a lot of folks during my ginseng
investigations. And, you know, I started to understand
him pretty good. But a point that comes up is
when you're cutting audio tapes and you're having
to transcribe audio tapes for the U .S. Attorney's
Office in prosecution, it was a nightmare for
folks to try to work on those tapes that you
transcribed. I'll bet. I'll bet. Boy, I have
two questions related to this. One is, first
of all, can you kind of just tell us what Johnny
looked like? Johnny was very thin. He obviously,
you know, was white, you know, had a mustache.
I'm assuming he used drugs. I never saw him use
drugs, but kind of sort of if you want to think
of a stereotypical alcoholic person, you know,
very thin and emaciated. And that was kind of
history. Gotcha. And then you also mentioned
that once Agent Ryan Knowles kind of asked you
to do the undercover work on this case, you already
had prior contact with Johnny Grooms. And so
you just kind of went into this store. And this
is like one of those stores that's right outside
the National Park where tourists can stop and
get drinks and chips and stuff like that, right?
Yeah, that's correct. The park entrance grocery
store is right outside the boundary of Great
Smoky Mountains National Park in Cosby, Tennessee,
which is in Cock County. Cock County is somewhat
of a notorious county. There have been several
federal investigations there regarding chop shops
of cars, prostitution, state political corruption.
There was a big investigation there right kind
of when Ryan's investigation was a beginning
that had culminated Operation rose thorn and
that investigation had to deal with some corrupt
police officers in the local town and county
sheriffs that were involved in Some activities
with regards to distribution of cocaine and money
laundering and the FBI also in this investigation
took down a big cockfighting arena. There was
approximately 200 people that were charged in
that for gambling and cockfighting. So it's an
interesting place, but it's also a beautiful
place. You know, lots of fishing there, lots
of whitewater rafting. It's of course like on
the doorstep to the Great Smoky Mountains National
Park. But you talked about the store, the park
entrance grocery store. You know, you could buy
a bag of chips there or soda, but there wasn't
much else in there like some old camping gear.
And it was certainly what we would call classify
a storefront for a drug operation. And that was
found out pretty quickly. That was a front. Interesting.
So, you know, given that county's history, you
mentioned, you know, police and corruption involved
there. That's like kind of your worst nightmare
to be working in a county where you're an undercover.
you know, law enforcement officer and the local
law enforcement may not be trustworthy, right?
That's kind of a scary situation. Yeah, that's
correct. Yeah, that's tough. So given that you
are not a Southerner, you've got, you know, you
were not born and raised in that area and the
county has already kind of had this massive,
you know, influx of federal law enforcement there
for other investigations. Why do you think you
were able to build rapport with Johnny Grooms
so quickly? Was he like really naive or was he
a paranoid kind of guy? He was both actually,
but he trusted me. He was very paranoid. The
park entrance grocery store, when you walked
in the store, Johnny had a bank of about four
televisions that were on and they were all on
different channels. volume was turned up loud
there was an old if you could picture a creaky
ceiling fan going you know in the store and it
was very loud in there and I don't know if he
did that specifically to the tier you know people
coming in there who's gonna try to record him
doing illegal activities but also he was trustworthy
to me because throughout my friendship with him
I never screwed him yeah in fact on A couple
of buys that I did with Johnny, he brought more
ginseng, or the people he sent me to sell me
the ginseng, brought more ginseng than I was
anticipating. So I only had so much cash on him.
So I'd have to say, hey, John, I owe you a couple
thousand bucks. And he was fine with that. The
next time we met, I gave him the money. We always
settled up. So he really trusted me. And whatever
we agreed on doing, I always did it. Gotcha.
So you were probably the most trustworthy or
the most reliable person he dealt with in what
he was doing, right? That's correct. So once
you got into it, you reestablished this relationship
with him again. Like, what did you discover he
was up to? Well, the first time that I went...
in september which the ginseng season opens then
so it's a good time to go in and talk about ginseng
you know we're talking about prices and dealers
and markets you know what's going on and he shows
me a half a pound of dried ginseng he just immediately
starts talking about you know illegal activities
i mean that that first meeting with him was very
productive and i don't think ryan's undercar
investigation was even open at that time i mean
he mentioned that he knew diggers were going
in the park He told me he was selling green or
fresh, undried ginseng to a Korean individual.
I had asked him at that time, are you going to
fool with a license this year? And he's like,
no, I don't even know how much they cost. And
while I'm in the store, a gentleman approaches
the counter. And so I was like a sense that he
wants to talk to Johnny. So I step away from
the counter and I could hear him talking to Johnny.
Johnny pulls out a pill bottle. and puts a pill
on the countertop. The person hands Johnny some
cash, puts the pill in his pocket. So I could
hear him talking about hydros, which I'm assuming
at the time is hydrocodone, which is an opioid.
And so, you know, I'm getting all this. No great
information from a law enforcement standpoint
you're in the first introduction reintroduction
with johnny i also tells me about a digger that
he recently met from kentucky who just came out
of the park with a sack of ginseng. And you don't
talk and i say yeah i heard that they mark the
ginseng in the park. And he's like, yeah, they
put these little pieces of wire in there and
they have a scanner and they could scan it and
tell if the ginseng came from the park and how
also died this ginseng. And so his culpability
already at this point and, you know, substantiation
for the fish and wildlife service at that point,
it was just phenomenal. Yeah. You have no worries
about entrapping him here at all, right? None
at all. None at all. None at all. And, you know,
what year is this? What year are we talking about?
2008. So yeah, opiate crisis is kind of just
it's going hard right then right in that region
of the country. Yeah, you know, in the in the
in the mid 2000, you know, the country was facing
this opioid crisis and high drug overdoses and
particularly in the rural Appalachian state,
you know, and it It was deeply affecting, you
know, folks that drug epidemic at the time. So
now you've got your, you know, you've got information
that he's potentially involved in trafficking
opioids as well. I mean, at some point you learned
that some other agencies were interested in grooms
too, right? Exactly. So Ryan's doing the heavy
lifting. He's jumping through the hoops with
our agency to get everything approved. We have
certain parameters that we have to follow, which
are all good things. And so Ryan contacts the
U .S. Attorney's office in Knoxville there to
get support for the investigation, to prosecute
any defendants that come up like we always do.
And so the U .S. Attorney's office says, The
FBI and the DEA and the TBI the Tennessee Bureau
of Investigation actually have their eye on Johnny
and they suspect he's involved in a prostitution
ring and a drug ring. And so we would certainly
like to join forces and work with you guys so
that that was a big help. to the investigation
to know that somebody could do the heavy lifting
on the drug side of things. You bet. And I'll
bet you anything that the FBI and the DEA and
the TBI were pretty damn excited when they heard
that there was already a UC special agent infiltrating
Johnny Grooms. I mean, that's like a great scenario
for them. They were and you know, I'm obviously
working selfishly the ginseng angle, you know,
I'm trying to see the big picture and you know,
so Johnny and I are still talking on the phone
all the time. What's the prices? I have not bought
any ginseng from him, you know, in September
the season's open. I'm trying to go slow, you
know, and build rapport with Johnny and I sense
the DEA is getting a little And see, you know,
let's get this thing rolling on the dress. I,
you know, so I hop on my truck and I, you know,
go over to give Johnny another visit. And, uh,
again, we just start where we left off. He's
asking me if I know anyone who sells pills, you
know, we started chatting about marijuana, you
know, eventually goes to cocaine and you talking
about paranoia. Before that, he's telling me,
like, hey, we talk on the phone. Be very concerned
about what you're saying to me. I think the police
are monitoring my phone. If you want to talk
about drugs, we should use code words. So if
you, you know, I'm not asking to buy anything
yet. Right. You know, I'm telling Johnny that,
you know, basically I'm all about money, making
money, whichever way we can. You help me, I'll
help you. And, uh, you know, it's all good with
me. So he tells me well if you want cocaine you
know just call her instead of calling in a rock
say one of big ginseng root and i don't know
what you're talking about he even goes on the
talk about what types of vehicles that you behind
the drive while out for them if we're gonna meet
we're gonna meet you know the bridge don't come
on the weekends cuz the police are always around
the weekend he was very astute to what the local
happenings were there what was going on. I had
mentioned earlier about that investigation, Operation
Rose Thorn, that had culminated right at the
time Brian's investigation was starting. In the
store there at the park entrance grocery store,
Johnny had a plaque that read, I survived Operation
Rose Thorn. I wonder if he had that made or if
somebody gave it to him. Yeah. I don't know if
it was the badge of honor or what, but he was
definitely paranoid. He showed me an RF detector
that he had in the store in case anybody came
in and was running a radio frequency to record
or body wire. And I'm not sure if it worked,
but it certainly got my hackles up when I was
going in there to chat them up and talk with
them. You bet that would be something to be very
concerned about if you were an undercover law
enforcement officer going in, and somebody is
that paranoid, and they're actually taking positive
steps to counteract surveillance equipment. You
definitely would not want that RF detector to
go off when you walked in the door, right? Right.
Back to me mentioning that the DEA might have
been getting a little antsy. You know, they're
all ready for the fish and wildlife and me specifically
to, you know, try to buy drugs with Johnny. And
I'm all for, you know, working with other agencies.
And so, you know, they want me to go in next
and buy some cocaine. And again, I'm agreeable
to that. But I want to be cross designated authority
with the DEA, because as you know, we Our authority,
especially with the fish and wildlife, is pretty
specific to fish, wildlife, plants. We enforce,
you know, Title 1618, the drug Title 21. It's
not something that we did. So I always wanted
to make sure that, you know, liability -wise
I was covered. You know, if something went bad,
you know, somebody shot me or I shot them, I
didn't want to be hung out to dry. So, you know,
they understood that. And so they said, okay,
we'll run it up the chain. You know, they come
back. Okay, you're good to go. It's, you know,
go in there and try to buy some drugs. And I'm
like, yeah, but I want, you know, the piece of
paper with the official cross designation authority
that says, you know, Tom and Ryan could do these
things and, you know, we're in a joint operation
with the DEA. They're like okay and then I think
basically what happens is our sack our special
agent charge, you know Contacts the special agent
charge for the DEA and they work it out and then
it took a while So we're talking about September
and then November I met him It took about to
January for Ryan and I to get that cross -designation
authority and you know I was being a stickler
about it and I knew that they weren't too excited
because their case was rolling and obviously
they wanted to get going. But I was in the timeout
mode, like, look, I've got to have this piece
of paper. And eventually we worked it out. Yeah.
And I don't blame you for doing that. And it's
kind of interesting. I think it'll be interesting
to non -law enforcement listeners of the podcast
that what's portrayed on TV about the conflict
between different agencies and how the FBI is
often portrayed as walking in and taking over
cases, That actually doesn't really happen very
often in real life. Most of the time, agencies
work very fluidly together, very cooperatively.
But there are sometimes these weird bureaucratic
things where, like you said, you wanted to be
cross -designated, which basically just means
that the DEA is deputizing you, that you have
authority to enforce their primary statutes.
And like you said, from your perspective, you're
you're the guy going in there has got to meet
with this bad guy who now is into ginseng, opioids,
cocaine, marijuana, likely when that kind of
money is involved, people will kill you for that
kind of stuff. And yeah, if something really
went bad, you want to make sure that it's in
writing, in a file, that everybody knew that
Tom Chizdok was working under the authority of
the DEA and the FBI for sure. So on this, we're
getting away from ginseng a little bit, but I
think it's really interesting. How did he orchestrate
getting his opioids? Because you were telling
me about that, and I found that really interesting,
his roots and his method for getting his hands
on opioids. Yeah, we certainly got away from
ginseng, but we eventually circled back around
after a while there. What Johnny was doing is
He would encourage people to go down to what
referred to at the time as pill mills in Florida
so a lot of people were going down the floor
at the time and they would go To certain areas
that were having portable MRI station set up
so you could go get MRI and show that there was
something wrong with you and then you could just
go into any drugstore down there with your prescription
that they would give you and they would give
you you know 150 200 you know hydros or roxies
you know even Oxycontin and that was it. You
know, we know about, uh, you know, what's kind
of happened to some of the big pharma because
of that. Right. But so he would just encourage
people to go down and do that. And they would
get a script of, uh, an opioid and they would
bring it back and sell some of those pills to
Johnny. And so Johnny was selling them for about
a dollar a gram. So if there was a 30 gram, uh,
hydro, you know, we 30 bucks, it was 40 grams.
It was $40. And as things moved on and the DEA
did a lot more background work, by the end of
this, he was actually paying people to fly down
to Florida. There was a Legionnaire that would
fly out of East Tennessee down to Florida. He'd
buy them a hotel. They would go get their MRI,
they would get their prescriptions, and they
would start to get the prescription filled at
different areas. In fact, one time he told me
that he was talking to a pharmacist in Tennessee,
if people could bring prescriptions back from
Florida and have them filled in Tennessee, because
what was happening is he would front people money
to do this and they would be, you know, eating
the pills, stealing his money. And that kind
of gets back to the trust for me. Like I never
ripped him off. Right. So he. He specifically
told me about this pharmacist that he talked
to and said, you know, could they bring them
back and bring him in the store and get the prescriptions
filled. And the pharmacist says, yeah, I don't,
I don't think so that, you know, you should be
doing that. You know, the pharmacist could get
in trouble. And Johnny's comment was like, well,
look, they'll have to arrest every damn pharmacy
in Florida because you just get your prescription
walk in and get it filled. He wasn't. I mean,
that was going on for a number of years till
the DEA stepped in and like shut all that down
with these mobile MRIs and, you know, a quick
prescription. You know, you fill them and that
was it. Crazy. And, you know, because you were
trustworthy, did he ever try to recruit you to
go down and be a mule to bring opioids back?
He did. In fact, one time when I was in the store,
he pulled out a notebook and he drew the schematic
for me on how this works. I couldn't figure out
how to get from the airport to the hotel. He
drew it all out on a piece of paper and he'd
tell me, okay, you need to buy this plane ticket.
This is how much this costs. You get a hotel
room down there and this is how much this costs.
You know, you go, you get your MRI, they're going
to charge a little bit and then you get the prescription
and I'll buy all the pills that you bring back.
Wow. He actually literally mapped it out on a
notebook piece of paper to show me how to do
that. Wow. And you know, on this regard, were
you ever asked to do drugs with him or anything
like that? Never. Okay. And I never portrayed
myself as a user. Right. What I had told Johnny
is that I had a friend in North Carolina who
did sell drugs. And, you know, he was always
looking for new sources to purchase drugs from.
And so I, you know, circled back to the, you
know, I'm just here to make money, Johnny, anyway
I can. I'm interested in doing drugs. You know,
the closest that it came is... When I did buy
an ounce of cocaine from Johnny and he put it
up to his nose and smell that and he put it up
to my nose and somebody much more popular than
me. I didn't inhale. I just kind of gave it the
old. Oh, yeah. Okay. That's good. And I had no
idea. Right. And one of the things that he did
do is he would bring out a variety of pills and
he would put them on the counter when I was there.
And he would say, this is a hydro. This is 30
milligrams. This is Oxycontin. This is a Roxy.
And he would show me these pills and tell me
all about them while I was there. And why he
did that, I don't know, but he wanted to buy
pills from me. He was in the make of money. And
like I said, quite frankly, he just trusted me.
Yeah. I mean, I think I bet that's why he was
doing it. He just had his fingers crossed that
here's a guy I can rely on. He wanted to recruit
you into his pill mill situation because he couldn't
trust his other mules. I'm sure that's what it
was. Oh, and just the people who were buying
from him like a pill at a time. After we got
the authority to work cross -designation, I was
in the store. A woman buys a pill from, you know,
and hands him a little bit of money. And then
he writes down on a piece of paper, basically,
an IOU on a ledger that he has there. And he's
just saying, this is my life. All these people
owe me money. And he's like, this is only a third
of the people who owe me money. And so, you know,
he was always fronting people or only taking,
you know, a certain amount with, you know, he
was a nice guy. I mean, he was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,
it's the interesting thing we could talk for
probably another hour about is when you're working
undercover how you you do build relationships
with the people you're working and It's it's
an interesting kind of phenomenon really You
know, so you're doing some buys on behalf of
DEA FBI You're helping them make their case,
but presumably you're still working the ginseng
angle to Did you start buying ginseng from him
or how did it work? What happened with the ginseng?
Yeah, I did. Ironically, the DEA's case really
took off. Johnny had given me a sample of some
cocaine. Of course, they sent it to their lab,
tested it's cocaine. Then I went back and I bought
some cocaine from Johnny. And shortly thereafter,
so that was in February. And by September, they
executed a search warrant on Johnny, on his business.
While your case is still going on. Whoa, okay.
Exactly. So they executed a search warrant in
September on Johnny's store, on his home, and
a car lot that I believe he was affiliated with.
And basically I see some pill bottles and a couple
hundred opioid pills. uh, some drug ledgers that
I talked about, you know, where he writes down
these IO use and, uh, some firearms. Okay. So
after that point, that was in September of 2009,
uh, you know, Johnny had always had ginseng and
he just wasn't selling. He was always waiting
for the price to go up. So come November that
year, uh, you know, prices are going up a little
bit and he wants, uh, You know some cash so he
calls me up and he wants to sell some ginseng
so. He tells me that he's got some guys that
are going down to florida mind you you know two
months later there's just a search warrant executed
on his business for the sale and distribution
of drugs right he's got people going down to
florida to pick up pills for him so he's like
cook i'm gonna send this guy over and meet with
him and uh he's gonna bring some ginseng and
if you could pay him for it. That's great. So
I do meet a guy in North Carolina, and he's with
some other, you know, guys that are going down
to Florida to pick up pills for Johnny. He gives
me the ginseng, I buy it, give him the money.
And, you know, those guys are on their way. So
regarding our regulations, Johnny is an unlicensed
dealer. So he's buying ginseng illegally. So
that ginseng is tainted that he purchases. in
violation of Tennessee state law. The guys he
gives it to on his behalf transports it to interstate
commerce. Right. And sells it. So, you know,
that's your basic LACIAC violation right there.
Yep. Yep. And presumably worth more than $300.
So it's a felony, right? Correct. Yes. Okay.
Nice. Okay. Yeah, go ahead. And so this kind
of continues. Yeah. So later in November, Johnny
calls me up. He's got some more ginseng to sell.
He wants to meet me. That first meeting, talking
about officer safety, it was in the daylight.
It was off an exit in a very populated area.
Felt pretty good. The next night when Johnny's,
or excuse me, the next sale when Johnny's coming
over, it's getting later at night. I'm in a parking
lot and he's calling me, telling me when he's
gonna come. I guess it's derogatory, but on doper
time, it just never works out. You know, you
say six o 'clock, it becomes seven o 'clock and
it becomes eight o 'clock. We're almost there,
Tom, we're almost there. So, you know, they finally
show up and they're in a van. They pull in, you
know, Johnny knows my vehicle and five people
jump out and I'm like, am I going to get robbed?
You know, what's happening here? And they'll
have to go to the bathroom. So they all run out
and Johnny comes over and I'm like, well, I guess
that's not what's gonna happen. And you know,
you bring up a good point though, because we
deal with this all the time. Like, you know,
when anybody who does undercover work deals with
this all the time, and it doesn't matter whether
you have a cover team on you or not, you cannot
predict who's gonna show up to a meeting. And
so, you know, like you said, they might be an
hour or two late. And if they're starting to
push it into darkness, that changes the safety
issues. And then, yeah, like you said, you might
be planning to meet with one guy, but you can't
control who that person brings with them. And
that is something that all officers who do undercover
work have to deal with, and they have to accept
that risk and be ready to go with the flow and
wing it. and make a decision whether you're going
to stay or whether you're going to get out of
there, right? But scary, scary situation. Yeah.
Yes, exactly. Exactly. So you, yeah, go ahead,
go ahead. You're making these deals. You know,
he jumps in the truck and he just immediately
starts telling me about the DEA executing a search
warrant on his place. Awesome. He's like, Tom,
I had marijuana and cocaine, but they didn't
find it. Nice. Like, he's just like, he's just
happy as ever could be. Nice. He's talking about
the search warrant, what's going on. And he's
got me in tears that he's just yucking it up.
And he said, Tom, they had a drug dog and damn
it, that dog crap right in the middle of my floor.
And he was just like, I'm telling that agent,
they got to clean this up. This is not right.
Like there's, there's nothing going on in his
life. I'm like, man, I'd be scared. You know,
like, you know, they just executed a search warrant
and I'm going down the floor to get more pills.
And he's telling you that they missed the place
where he had all the contraband hidden, right?
Exactly. Unbelievable. That's actually maybe
a good reason why they did the warrant in the
middle of your investigation, because you got
to hear from him what he thought of the whole
search warrant. Interesting. Sure. Interesting.
It enabled them to start looking at airplane
records, manifests, who was on there, who was
going down, who was coming back, where these
prescriptions were being filled. their case really
took off. That's great. Awesome. And how much
ginseng are you buying from him at this point?
You know, I met with Johnny on five occasions
and I bought almost 36 pounds of ginseng. And
I was paying anywhere between, at that time,
$400 and $600 a pound. So we paid Johnny just
over $18 ,000. Okay. For ginseng. And then there
was the drug stuff in between. So he's doing
this illegally because he's not a licensed ginseng
dealer. Did you get any evidence that he was
buying from illegal collectors so that the ginseng
he was getting wasn't legal anyway? Right certainly
did and it was just really a stroke of luck But
you know, I guess as a saying around here goes
even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while,
but So ginseng the formula is basically 300 ginseng
roots equals one pound of ginseng when it dries
out. Okay, so so we purchased about 36 pounds
of ginseng and All the ginseng that we would
buy, we actually went ahead and blacklighted
it. Remember when Johnny talked about the ginseng
in the park having dye on it? Yeah, was that
true? Was that real? In fact, it is. A gentleman
from the North Carolina Department of Agriculture
and Consumer Services, Jim Corbin, he dreamed
up an event at this program where he created
a dye that Initially, they would put it at the
base of the ginseng root and spray some glue
on it, and this fluorescent dye would adhere
to the plant. Eventually, he had it being absorbed
up into the plant. Jim was a mastermind. He every
year would do what he called the blitz into the
Great Smoky Mountains National Park, and he would
get as many people as he could that was interested
in going to the back country, and they would
just locate ginseng. pull back the dirt and the
duff and they would apply this dye, spray it
on or have it come out in the uproot. And so
the ginseng actually glowed when you would put
a light over it, a black light. And we did find
a few pieces of ginseng that actually had fluorescent
dye on it. And so Ryan took that to the park
and they looked at it and they wrote up a nice
professional opinion that yes, in fact, this
is our dye. Jim was so into it that he actually
created different colors and different markers
and dyes. So in different areas, like in the
forest service, they would use a different color.
Right. Jim, you know, I want to call Jim out
because he was just a great associate of mine.
He helped me so much. The North Carolina Wildlife
Resources, excuse me, the North Carolina Department
of Ag and Consumer Services, their Plant Protection
Division, they're regulatory. So a lot of the
ginseng overseers in the state are regulatory.
There's a big difference between a regulatory
agency and a law enforcement agency. So they're
really not doing enforcement and it's hard for
them to get people to fall in line with the laws
and regulations. You know, basically they just
tell them, don't do this. Jim had a heart of
gold and he would call me up all the time and
never want anything in return. He would tell
me, Tom, you need to look at this person. I would
say, Jim, can you get me records? You know, so
I could do a record investigation on things.
And he was just a great asset to the U .S. Fish
and Wildlife Service. That's the way it's supposed
to be. And I love hearing that because it makes
your job so much easier. And that's the way it's
supposed to work, public service. We're supposed
to cooperate. That's great. Exactly. So when
you finally took this case down, what was the
outcome? What happened to Johnny? How was he
charged? And what was the sentence? Yeah, so
you know we we've we US official we the US Fish
and Wildlife Service finished up our buys in
like February 2010 Okay, and so then you know
all the paperwork begins to get people charged
work with US Attorney's Office You know a couple
different agencies working together Johnny was
Indicted in August of 2010 Okay. A few months
later, he was indicted. There are two superseding
indictments on that. And he was eventually charged
with 19 counts. Wow. Including seven for felony
Lacey at counts, which we were pretty proud of,
you know, absolutely going on to get some Lacey
at charges. Of course. Absolutely. Johnny, he
went to trial in May of 2011. The wheels of justice
move slow, as you know. So he had a four -day
trial. And he was convicted, I believe, on all
charges. Wow. And I'm going to ask you a little
bit about that trial in a second. We're going
to wrap up pretty soon. But what was the sentence
on that? Uh, Johnny was actually sentenced to
24 years for drug and felony Lacey act violations.
Wow. That is an awesome sentence. Yeah. And it
was basically a death sentence for Johnny. I
mean, at the time when he was, uh, convicted,
he was 59 and he, he, he did pass away after
serving 12 years. Wow. Also two, two other gentlemen
were convicted of felony Lacey act that You remember
I talked about meeting other people. They were
both charged and convicted, and did a small sentence
for those two. So Ryan got two extra charges
out of that. Excellent. That's always good to
wrap up as many people as you can in one case.
What was Johnny's reaction when he found out?
Because presumably you testified in the trial.
What was his reaction when he found out that
this guy he trusted so much had been an undercover
Fish and Wildlife Special Agent? Yeah, that's
always a strange feeling it is on the stand and
you look across and you know you have to identify
the defendant and he just kind of looked down
and you know, he I Think at that time he started
to realize all the things that he told me of
course his attorney had all the reports and everything
to read, you know pretrial but you know, it's
hard from a sometimes from an agent's perspective
when you know you're working these people and
you know he's doing bad things and I'm starting
to feel about like hey you know the money we're
paying Johnny's helping to subsidize this drug
trafficking thing you know and that that started
to weigh on me pretty heavy but you know you
kind of keep your eye on the prize what's happening
and you know you're looking for the end goal
and you know if you could take out Johnny that
community is going to be a lot safer a lot better
for people in that community so it It was a good
feeling, you know, actually also to look across
the table and see Johnny there and to think that,
you know, we all did a good job, all agencies
collectively together. Absolutely. And as we've
said many times on this podcast, you know, the
law really has no impact if there aren't consequences,
right? Right. And I always found it very strange
to be sitting across a courtroom looking at people
I had spent months or more years working undercover
and now they The realization is setting in with
them. I'm in a suit and tie, I'm clean shaven,
and now I'm Special Agent Ed Newcomer. It's kind
of a surreal experience. But the other thing
you mentioned is that I think all undercover,
any officer, actually undercover or overt cases,
casework, you always have this dilemma of when
do you take the case down? And there's some point
you reach where you've got enough evidence and
you can't allow crime to continue anymore. And
it's time to take the case down, right? And I
think sometimes law enforcement officers, they
can't make the decision, right? And they kind
of let the case go too long or too short or whatever.
It's a hard one. It's definitely hard. It is.
Yeah. There's definitely the right time to do
that. And it's out the Assistant United States
Attorney that was involved in the case. You know,
he was outstanding on that as well. Neil Smith,
you know, he knew what he needed and, you know,
he called it when it should have been called.
Yeah. Good. Well, you know, I just think this
case is fascinating, of course, because I worked
most of my career on the West Coast. I never
did any ginseng cases. So this has been really
educational for me to hear from you. talk about
the case. And I think it's also really interesting
because we often talk about how wildlife trafficking
overlaps with other, wildlife and plant trafficking
overlaps with other types of crimes. But this
is a really interesting case that shows how a
trafficker is a trafficker. And if they see another
opportunity to make money illegally, whether
it's drugs, guns, humans, they'll do it. The
last thing before we sign off, which I think
is kind of interesting, I'd love it for you to
tell our listeners and viewers what happened
to that grocery store outside the park shortly
after this case. Yeah, sad and tragic. But there
was an apartment down in the basement section
of the park entrance grocery store that Johnny
had rented out. A guy actually shot and killed
his girlfriend in that basement at the end of
this investigation. And then it eventually burned
down. Nobody really knows how, but it just kind
of caught on fire one day. Kind of apropos. Yes.
It's funny. I had a case like that where about
three months after my undercover case closed,
this vacant house that was up on a hill overlooking
one of the main bad guys' house mysteriously
burned to the ground. And I knew from doing my
case that the bad guy suspected that surveillance
was being done from that house. Now, nobody knows
why that house burned down, but the timing of
it is very suspicious after a major criminal
case comes to close, right? Yeah. Interesting.
There's probably more work to do in that county.
But listen, Tom, I can't thank you enough for
being on the show. I know you were a reluctant
guest. And I twisted your arm and made you come
on. And I really appreciate it. I think this
is going to be a great episode. I think people
are going to learn a lot. I certainly did. And
I hope I can have you on to talk about other
cases you've worked on over the years. But I'll
twist your other arm later to get that done.
I appreciate the opportunity, Ed, and I appreciate
what you're doing telling stories of, you know,
state and federal wildlife agents. Great. Thank
you, Tom. It's great to see you again and hear
your voice as well. And I hope you have a great
rest of your week and everybody out there listening.
Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you next time.
Nature Secret Service is written and produced
by me, Ed Newcomer. and is co -produced by the
DHTV team here at California State University,
Dominguez Hills. Follow us on social media and
connect with us online at naturessecretservice
.com.