If you want to learn more about the topics of
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naturessecretservice .com. Thanks for listening.
Okay, people listen up. Here we go. This is Nature's
Secret Service, the podcast that puts you in
the room with the men and women of wildlife law
enforcement. My name is Ed Newcomer. I'm your
host. And today we have a very unique episode.
I'm sure if you've listened to prior episodes
of this podcast, you've heard me talk about working
with confidential informants. And usually it's
been while talking to other agents and we're
usually complaining about how difficult it is
to work with confidential informants. But today,
our guest is actually a former confidential informant
for the US Fish and Wildlife Service. And I would
like to introduce you to Pete Paxton. Pete, thanks
for being on the show. I really appreciate it.
I have to tell you part of why I am so excited
to be here. OK, so they're in. There is this
story I have told so many people in my life,
and it's this. It's one day I get this phone
call and this guy goes, Pete Paxton, this is
Special Agent Ed Newcomer. And you had a very
deep voice back then. I don't know if you remember
that. You had the whole Batman thing going on,
right? The federal government wants you to go
undercover. And everywhere I tell this story
to is like, shut up, Pete. That didn't happen.
This is the guy everybody. Okay, this is it.
And the Fed gave you a call out of the blue,
didn't he? Yes. That's how I'm telling it. I
love it. You know, the sad truth is that the
reason my voice was so low when that happened
was probably because I had a cold or something.
But you know, that's the perfect lead in because
I want to say, you know, the reason that I asked
you to be on the podcast, because, you know,
you still do undercover work. And so there is
some risk to you for being on shows like this.
But you agree with me in that there's this balance
between making sure the public knows what's going
on and how things work and that their taxpayer
money is being spent for good reasons and all
of that. And you have to balance that against,
we have to be careful and we have to maintain
operational security. But we're going to balance
that out. We're going to make sure nobody can
see you and that kind of thing. And you're very
safe. You're very safe in what you do. But let
me give you the real story behind how I reached
out to Pete Paxton. And by the way, that's obviously
not his real name. What year? So, okay, so there
was a time when I was working as a special agent,
I was doing undercover work myself, I was here
in LA, and I'm watching just in the evening one
night, I'm watching a television show on HBO
called Death on a Factory Farm. And what year
did that come out, Pete? The investigation in
that doc was 06, but the doc came out in 2009.
2009. OK, so that was like right after I had
finished Operation High Roller. I'd finished
working undercover on Kojima and Operation RTG.
I'd kind of been in it. And here I'm watching
this documentary about this guy who goes undercover
on a factory farm, like a big industrial type
farm, to uncover. pretty egregious animal cruelty
against farm animals. And I mean, we won't go
into all the detail of what you saw in that investigation.
But I mean, these were people who were just taking
pleasure out of harming and torturing animals
beyond. We're not talking about people that are
slaughtering animals for food in a humane way.
We're talking about people who were just being.
sadistic toward another sentient being in really
disgusting ways. And these were people who, just
from watching it, I knew these were dangerous
people because they obviously had no empathy
toward another living thing. And the whole time
I'm watching this show, I'm like, holy shit,
this dude, this guy, you know, the more that
they talked about what you were doing in the
show and you were that undercover guy, your ass
was hanging out there. I mean, I thought about
My perspective, and I had the federal government
behind me. I had armed agents who were my cover
team sometimes. I always had somebody who knew
where I was and what I was doing. And I carried
a gun myself sometimes. You didn't have any of
that. You were on this farm. And boy, if these
guys had figured out who you were, it would have
been, at a minimum, a serious physical beating,
if not worse. I mean, very dangerous stuff. So
I watched this whole documentary, and I said,
I've got to get in touch with this guy. I mean,
I just have to talk to this undercover guy. So
I, I don't even remember how I figured out how
to get ahold of you. I think I just use my investigator
skills to go to HBO, I think. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
Yeah. I think, yeah. So I think you got in touch
with HBO and then they sent you to the humane
farming association. That's what I did that case
for. And then HFA forwarded me this letter and
I had to read it a couple of times. Like, I'm
fucking serious. Like, just a federal agent just
reached out, like, hey, let's talk shop about
UC work. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And yeah, and
you called me. And I was so happy to be in touch
with you, because first of all, my first goal
and intention was simply to talk to you about
what that experience was like for you, because
I could appreciate it from my own experience.
And then it was like, It's beyond a level beyond
what I was doing in terms of like the risk and
your skill I was very impressed with your undercover
techniques and your skill and your ability to
take it to the next level which is Producing
accurate reports, you know for law enforcement
and then taking it in that case you even went
on to testify in court. So you know not every
undercover agent they might be great at undercover
but they're terrible report writers or they're
not good on on the stand you know and you you
had the whole package and I really wanted to
make sure we met. That really changed the trajectory
for me after you reached out. That's awesome.
I'm glad to hear that because the next step in
this story, of course, is that as we talked and
we stayed in touch over the next year or so,
we came up with a plan or I came up with an idea
of how you could work for the US Fish and Wildlife
Service. And I'm going to ask you to talk about
that in just a second. But I'll give a little
background of why I came to this idea. And that
is OK, so listeners need to remember the previous
comments me and other agents have made about
confidential informants. They're usually unpredictable,
difficult to work with, and that kind of thing.
So if you find somebody who's really good, you
tend to look for a really good project for them.
And one of the things that always vexed us on
the West Coast in California was we knew that
there were fishing vessels operating off the
coast of California, up and down from LA all
the way up to Monterey Bay. Perseaners, drift
netters, different types of fishing vessels that
would routinely entangle seals, sea lions, dolphins,
other marine mammals, including endangered sea
otters, but also would entangle birds like protected
pelicans and all kinds of sea birds. And at the
time, the brown pelican was still listed as threatened.
And then, of course, the sea otter up in Monterey
Bay is listed as endangered. But what happens
is they entangle these animals in their nets.
And then rather than do the right thing and back
the nets out and humanely release the animal,
try to save it. They're out in the middle of
the ocean. They don't care. They just say screw
it and they run the run the either drown the
animal in their nets or Maybe shoot it or do
something awful to it Or maybe they just run
the nets up through the blocks in there in their
retrieval gear and that breaks the bird's wings
and kills them or Yet, you know kills them at
best at worst It breaks their wings and they're
they're maimed and left to float on the ocean
so we knew this was an ongoing problem because
we had dead animals would wash up every time
the The fishing fleets would operate off the
coast And so we in my office we kind of were
like crap We got to do something about this and
the first thing we thought about was well, shoot
Let's put an undercover on the boats But the
problem is that these boats go out and work days
at a time sometimes, you know many miles off
coast It's really difficult to have a full -time
special agent then go get a job working on a
boat So it's kind of tailor -made for confidential
informant. And the last thing I'll say about
this, because people want to hear from you, Pete.
They want to hear your story. The last thing
I'll say on this is with the US Fish and Wildlife
Service, like all federal law enforcement agencies,
we're very careful to protect confidential informant.
So if we end up deciding to work with one, we
give them what's called a confidential number.
They have what's called a CPI number. A contract
is signed with them that assigns that number
to them. And the only people that really know
that number are agents at headquarters, the special
agent who's handling the informant, and maybe
that special agent's boss. But other special
agents in the district, nobody else knows the
name associated with that number. So it's a very
good way to protect people. But Pete Paxton,
when he started to work for me, became known
as CPI. And then there was a number after it.
And we pay our informants, and not great, but
we do pay our informants for the work that they
do. So Pete, now let's flash forward to your
experience here. You get that call from Ed Newcomer.
We're becoming friends, and we're exchanging
stories and notes. And I ultimately come to you
and ask you, hey, what do you think about helping
us? you know, infiltrate these fishing fleets.
What was it? Do you remember that conversation
or what your first reaction was? So that was
a dream come true for me because I have only
three, I've done my job for since 2001. So it's
been 24 years now. That was only one of three
times that while I was undercover, law enforcement
was aware of what I was doing. Every other job
I've ever done, you know, There's no, there's
no prosecutor. There's no cop. There's no agent
that has any idea what's going on. There's no
kind of like support like that. And I thought
not only, and that was the only time that not
only was I undercover and you know, Ellie knows
what I'm doing. It was your idea. Right? It wasn't
me saying, I want to do something. What do you
think? And it's like, yeah, well, we'll see if
we got the time. It was, no, we, this is, we
got a plan, man. We know what the targets are
doing. We know what the violations are. That
was a dream come true. Cool. And, and I was also
excited to go do it because at that point I had
a few years under my belt and the kind of targets
that I was working had begun to quite literally
create. They have a, there's, there's groups
that If you work for an NGO, like an animal rights
NGO, there are anti -animal rights NGOs and they
have lists of known investigators to keep us
out. I'm proud to say I was the first, I was,
I was the original list. It was just me. It was
like back in 2009 when that doc came out, they're
like, all right, stop hiring this guy. Here he
is. They had a picture of me from a license.
They had my full date of birth. They had my social
up there. They redacted some of it later. They
had every known name I'd ever used. And so I
thought, man, OK, let me head out to California.
No one's going to be looking for me. So I was
very excited about that. And it was a new experience
hitting those docs. Because I'm used to a blue
collar mentality. OK. Yeah, you've been a worker.
And to back up, I think listeners kind of get
the gist. prior to working with me, you had been
exclusively doing animal rights investigations,
right? Like animal cruelty investigations. Yeah.
Yeah. My career has been largely undercover work,
a lot of surveillance, but a lot of undercover
work, including, you know, working undercover
at it's, it's at facilities so that it's, I do
animal cruelty cases, but it's all commercial
cruelty. So I don't, I don't, if your neighbor
is kicking their dog, there's not much I can
do about that. But if it's a puppy mill, right?
Right. There's 20, a hundred, you know, 900 dogs
at a time. I can work undercover at that place
or do surveillance of that place. So farms, slaughterhouses,
puppy mills, and then. going to add fishing boats
to the list. So I was excited. Yeah. Yeah. And
this is too, this is interesting too, because
certainly whatever these guys are doing on the
fishing boats would probably qualify as animal
cruelty. But from, from my perspective in the
U S fish and wildlife service, we were looking
at it as violations of the migratory bird treaty
act or the Marine mammal protection act or the
endangered species act, which The cruelty really
doesn't come into play on whether or not they
violated those laws. It's whether or not they're
killing or trying or attempting to kill these
animals that are protected. So that was another
new angle for you, right? It was. Oh, yeah. Yeah,
completely new laws, stuff that I'd never, to
be honest, laws I didn't even know existed. Right.
I think I gave you a little crash course on kind
of what the elements were so you knew what to
look for. You mentioned, and I forgot to mention
this at the beginning, you mentioned that one
of the things that you've looked at in your career
at puppy mills, and you are the co -author of
a book called Rescue Dogs, which kind of details
some of that work in terms of infiltrating puppy
mills. If anybody, it's hard to stomach some
of the stories that go on with these cases. But
if you want to know the insidious world of puppy
mills and why you should really only adopt dogs
from the pound or humane societies, definitely
pick up the book, Rescue Dogs. What's the name
you used to author there? Pete Paxton. And then
I wrote it with an author, Gene Stone. and a
ghost author, Nick Bromley. I out Nick as a ghost
author every chance I get because he's amazing.
It's a great book and definitely wanted to make
sure people knew about it to learn more about
kind of the work you have done. Okay, so what
I remember about this is I kind of briefed you
on what we wanted to do. You were on board. But
the next thing I was like is, hey, go get a job
on one of these boats. And I didn't know how
to do that either. I don't think you did either.
It was kind of like, go do it. No, I had no idea.
And so what was new for me on that was this idea
that it wasn't just show up and, hey, I'm not
drunk right now. Will you take me, right? It
was more like, you know, it was, it's like you
had to show face, right? You had to kind of like
hang out. I mean, because some of these guys
literally lived on their books. Right. You know.
Yeah. I mean, they were born in the frigging
water, man. You know, so I had to show face enough
that they were that that it showed that I was
going to be there consistently. It showed that
I really wanted it, but it also showed I have
nothing else going on. Got it. Right. Got it.
Like I'm not a cop who has something else to
go back to. I'm not someone who has some good
job. Like I really like, you know, I learned
very quickly that what those captains want is
they want someone who's going to get the job
done, but also someone who cannot say no. Yeah.
You have no other option. You're hungry. You're
hungry. Yeah. Yeah, you're, yeah, you're hungry,
you know, you know, or like, you know, you can,
you can handle not having to fix while you're
on the boat, but you got to get that money to
get that fix when you're off the boat, you know,
situation like that. So I needed to kind of appear
to be that guy. Interesting. And then what I
learned quickly is that while I've worked with
some pretty crazy, I'm going to use the word
crazy and unsavory, you know, people, and, you
know, there's a specific thing. with boat captains.
They're normal people. Most of them are pretty
normal on the dock. The moment the boat is out
in state waters, they lose their freaking minds.
They become tyrants and it's like a switch flips.
And all of a sudden, you know, man, you are just
some scrub that, you know, if you, especially
if you're the green horn who needs to, you know,
you need to do everything that they say and they're
going to give you impossible tasks just to kind
of push you, just to screw with you because you
can't walk away. You're on the water. Right and
you're counting on that paycheck for when that
when you because you know They don't get paid
till they bring their fish in and then they pay
the crew, right? So yeah Yeah, you've got a you
got to stay on the good side of your captain
for the whole time until that fish comes in and
is sold and then you're paid and then if you
want to walk you can walk but Up until then you
know Yeah, yeah, no, and it's in and then you
know It's it's all new stuff to me to how to
stack net how to throw net out all of this is
new But, you know, I have to, I have to learn
it right away. Right. And then, you know, there'd
be stuff, you know, because I started, I started
getting on a few boats and there'd be something
that would go wrong. Clearly in the water, clearly
the net, like the net went out fine. And then
it got tangled up coming in and guess who's to
blame me, apparently, you know, yeah, they're
griping at me for hours until we set the net
again. Come on. So they actually trained you,
but it's kind of like they trained you under
fire on how to do some of these things, right?
Yeah, yeah. And it doesn't all make sense. And
sometimes a captain would be drunk or, you know,
one captain was, he was a pill popper, you know.
And I remember everyone was nervous when he was
going to, when he wanted to take a late shift
at the wheel, because apparently he had almost
hit a massive rock. Somewhere out there in the
water one night So anytime he was taking the
wheel the crew would talk about it and say one
of us has to be up with him He can't be alone
because he's gonna be he's gonna be stoned like
I can tell he's already his eyes are glazing
over he's already there, you know, and And then
there was a boat there was this one boat that
I was on where the situation got pretty bizarre
and I was, I hadn't documented any federal violations.
It was just some state stuff and, and, you know,
we were, we were holding on and, and, uh, I'm
with the captain and I'm with the crew member
and this crew member kept telling me he kept
making these statements that he would not say
them as if they were jokes, but as if he was
very sincerely trying to make sexually suggestive
remarks to me. until they became sexually aggressive
remarks. And he was telling me that he had all
these tattoos and he said that they were Mexican
prison tattoos and that he learned to love men
in prison. And then he said that there was a
guy on the boat who didn't like what he was doing
to him at first, but once he made the guy, the
guy liked it. And so I said, hey man, you stay
the hell away from me. And then he said to me
one day, he goes, He goes, Hey Pete, we're just
standing there bait. We're just, we're just baiting
hooks, man. We're just standing there baiting
hooks. And he goes, Hey Pete, when you die, what
happens? Oh no. And I go, what the hell does
that mean? And he goes, when you die, what happens?
Like, I don't know. What are you talking about?
He goes, the worms eat you. Right. And I go,
yeah, so. And he goes, well, if you let the worms
eat you, why not let me? Oh my God. And I said,
Hey man, listen, you stay the hell away from
me and only just do your job on this boat. And
so that was, we were going to go out, we were
going to go out the next day. And I remember
I had this feeling, you know, I'll never know
if it was the right call or not. Right. But I
had this feeling like something, something's
going to go down. And if it's going to go down,
I don't want you or, uh, I know we're also, uh,
we were working under Aaron Dean, right? Yep.
Aaron was the boss. Yep. Aaron's incredible.
And I was like, I don't want you or Aaron to
think that, you know, I'm creating some kind
of a problem. So I thought here's what I'm going
to do. I'm going to call Ed and I'm going to
tell you, look, I got a situation. I got this,
but if something goes, Now I want you to know
in advance, I'm kind of anticipating it. I'm
not going to like make anything happen, but I'm
going to deal with it. Right. Just letting you
know. And you're like, okay, I trust you. I got
it. And I was asleep, getting ready to get up,
had to get up in like a few hours, get on the
boat. And it was like 3 a .m. I get a call from
Aaron. She goes, Pete. I can't sleep. I'm pulling
you off that boat. That boat was done. Yep. You
know, uh, and that's worth a little bit of an
explanation because Part of the reason that this
idea came to me was years earlier, we had had
a situation where sea otters were getting killed
in Monterey Bay. And everybody believed it was
the squid fleet, the squid fishery, which is
a fleet of boats that specifically focuses on
anchovies or squid using purse sanding nets.
And so I started a little bit of what you did.
I got myself on a boat undercover. But the cover
was not great, and it was temporary. It wasn't
where I was working for the boat. I was an observer
along. And because of that setup, as an observer,
they weren't going to do anything illegal in
front of me. But it did give us a lot of intel
about how they operated. And one of the things
I discovered about how they operated was, number
one, there's a lot of guns on those boats. I
saw a lot of guns, and there were a lot of sharp
edged weapons, knives and stuff. But I also saw,
like you did, These are not boats that go out
for the day to fish and come back. Sometimes
they do, but sometimes they go out multiple days
at a time, or they specifically go out at night.
And to stay awake, a lot of the captains and
crew will use controlled substances. Methamphetamine
was one thing that I saw. available on those
boats. And in fact, yeah, that was so common.
Yeah, that they would call them tweaker boats,
tweaker boats. Exactly. And there was some there,
you know, I had debriefed with or briefed prior
to my work on this with the US Coast Guard, and
they had said they'd been looking at the squid
fleet for drug trafficking issues, along with
some drug trafficking between them. And of all
things, the hell's angels of California. So we,
you know, we we were very aware that there were
some risky people on this boat. And I remember
Aaron and I had a long conversation the day before
we pulled you off that boat. And we were kind
of torn. Do we let him go out on this boat 10,
20, 30 miles offshore in water that's cold enough
that if somebody threw you overboard, you'd be
dead before anybody could find you. Yeah, we
and I think I think Aaron and I were in agreement
We had to pull you off that boat even though
it was such an amazing in to have you on a boat
We couldn't have We couldn't have one of our
confidential informants out there with a guy
who's threatening to kill them and rape them
and whatever. I appreciate you looking out for
me, man. Thanks for making sure I didn't get
raped and murdered out on the ocean. I never
told you thank you. No, you didn't have to. But
it was an eye -opener for Aaron and I even to
just hear your stories about what was going on
on those boats while you're out there. I mean,
incredible. It takes incredible bravery to be
out there by yourself. of doing that work. So
good for you for, you know, that was the other
thing. You were an awesome informant because
you kept, you briefed me just about every day
you went out. You would call me and say, here's
what happened today. Here's what I'm seeing.
Down to very minute detail about here's how these
guys are interacting with me, right? Which was
very important for me to monitor your safety
and Aaron too. So yeah, that's what made you
such a great informant. So. So yeah, so you just
told the story in a nutshell. You did an awesome
job. You get into that fishing community. You
get ingratiated with these guys. You actually
get hired on not one, but a couple boats, and
kind of jumped around a little bit looking for
the most likely violator. And then we finally
find that boat, and you get threatened in a scary
situation. So we have to pull you. And that was
like, we never got any federal charges, federal
wildlife charges, off of that time, right? Yep.
Nothing. So years later. Yeah, years later. So
yeah, so the next thing is we stay in touch and
we're looking for another thing for you to do,
right? But 2015 rolls around. I get assigned
to go to Africa for five years, so I'm kind of
out of the picture. So yeah, Phyllis, you went
back. You figured out a way to go back at these
boats. How did that all come about? Basically,
what happened was I was working at that time
for a group called Mercy for Animals. And I was
the director of international investigations.
So they had me going to Mexico and India and
Brazil. And I was training people and doing a
lot of field work and all this. But I was doing
nothing domestic. And I had some time on my hands.
Like so many of my cases, cause I'm just a civilian.
I work for NGOs, you know, my girlfriend and
I have our own NGO. Like I was just like, I'm
just going to pull something together. I just
want to do something. Like I'm here in, like
I'm in California. Aaron is right over there,
right? Like I could do something. And so I thought,
you know what? Like that case, that fishing case
never came out. And so what I did was I, uh,
I started looking at all the different kinds
of fisheries there are. And I honed in on the
drift gill net fishery because I thought they
are, it was this perfect combination of things.
That fishery had been banned in Washington and
Oregon. They'd been trying for years to ban it
in California, but the legislation had never
gone through. And the bycatch is cute animals.
And that's critical because drift gill nets,
For anyone who doesn't know, they're mile -long
nets that have the nickname Walls of Death that
go out in the water, and they're submerged. And
out there in California, they were targeting
swordfish, thresher sharks, and mako sharks.
And swordfish, it's not like they're the cutest
thing. Thresher sharks, yeah, they're kind of
cute. They got stubby noses, but they're sharks.
Makos? Oh, listen. Okay, I'm an animal activist.
I love all animals, Ed. Makos are fucking terrifying.
Have you ever seen a Mako? It's like they have
chainsaws for mouths, man. It's horrifying. Exactly.
They're like great white sharks in a cheetah's
body. They go so freaking fast and they have,
like you said, a mouthful of razor sharp teeth
that kind of juts out in all different directions.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's like teeth that face
forward. It's terrible. And so I was like, OK,
no one's going to go for that. But the bycatch.
that was associated with them was dolphins and
sea lions. And I thought, okay, here's what I'm
gonna do. I'm gonna use the experience that I
had. And I have like, you know, I have a lot
of experience working on the boats and I know
how to talk to these fishermen. And I started
hitting the docks and I think I started hitting
the docks in 2016. This was like, It took me
months. It took me over four months of just showing
up and I would tell people, Hey man, I'm kind
of putting together a video project. Um, you
know, can you let me film you? Listen, I used
to be a commercial fisherman, man. I don't know
what to film and what not to film. I've worked
on that boat. I've worked on that boat. I've
worked on that boat. Perfect. And then I would
show up with a big camera and I would just talk
to people would just always see me around. And
then I started getting onto non targets. We're
like, The fishery wasn't even happening for those
targets, but people would see me go out on the
water, hanging off the front of the boat, off
the bow, holding the camera up like, oh, he's
really doing it. He's a real deal. Yeah. And
then it took, like I said, it took almost half
a year, but then boom, this, this drift gill
net boat called the Albatro took me out on the
water. And I went out on the Albatro and I went
out on another boat called the Margretto and
every single run that we did dead sea lions and
dead dolphins came up. There was not any trip
where they made sets, where there wasn't multiple
dead marine mammals that came up. And Mercy for
Animals at the time, it was not part of their
mission statement to deal with that. And, you
know, their donors weren't paying them for that.
It's part of the thing with NGOs, right? It's
called mission creep, right? You're like, I'm
going to go do something outside of what I'm
supposed to be doing. It's like, well, if people
aren't donating money to you for that, you got
to honor that. So they weren't sure if they wanted
to do that case. And then that first shot I got
of a dead dolphin coming up in the net, the executive
director looked at that and said, we're taking
this we're doing it because these animals are
drowning that's it that i mean they get stuck
in these nets and they're air breathers so they
drown that's a horrible way to go yeah yeah there
was even one that was taking uh their final breath
man ed there was a dead baby dolphin that came
oh it was it was rough man and um and so what
i would do is uh i had like i would overtly film
everything. And then I would covertly film the
violations, right? And at one point, I saw and
I even set up some GoPros. And at one point,
this one dolphin came up. And they're like, Oh,
man, oh, man. And then this is something else.
This is something that happens with undercover
work. And anyone who's done UC stuff, you know
this, if you haven't, this is not going to make
a lot of sense. But this constantly happens to
me. I start talking to someone and I'm like,
hey, I'm in on this, let's do this. I'm like,
all right, new guy, absolutely. And it's kind
of like they want to brag, right? Feeds their
ego that like, you're going to see them do their
thing. And then the first violation happens.
The first time that a dead dolphin comes up in
the net, the first time that they're beating
a downed cow or whatever the case is. And all
of a sudden they remember, oh wait, I don't know
you. Right. Right. And that's when they sweat
you down. And so that's when it was like, it
was, it was on the Albatross and the Margotto.
It was that first time, man. That's when they
start saying, this is what they would say. You
a cop? No, I'm not a cop. You better not be a
cop. Cause if you are, you're going in the water,
which to explain that mindset, their thought
process was this. I think you're a cop. So I'm
going to threaten to kill you, right? And so
I'm like, I'm not a cop, I'm not a cop. And they're
like, oh, the GoPro, the GoPro. And I'm like,
oh, right, I forgot. And so I reach up and I
grab the GoPro and they're all freaking out facing
the dolphin because they realize, wait, he actually
just saw this, even though they knew this was
going to happen. And I was thinking, like, I
know I got this on the UC cam. But man, what
a shot that the GoPro's getting. So I walk around,
the net comes off a giant spool on the boat,
and I walk around it. I open up the back of the
GoPro, pull the memory card out, put a blank
one in. throw the memory card in my vest, close
it. And then I come around and the captain's
son is walking around and falling. What are you
doing, Pete? What are you doing? I'm like, look,
I'm just erasing the footage. I'm just making
sure it's erased. So that was it. I was solid
after that. Yeah. Well, then they know you're
in on it, right? And you're willing to do it.
You know, that's very interesting comment because
I've always told like newer agents when I would
train new agents who came on. Every undercover
case I ever did, from the first one to the last
one, I was always quizzed about whether or not
I was a cop. And I think sometimes people get
so scared and worried, undercover agents get
scared and worried, that they're burned. Just
because somebody asks you, you are. Anybody committing
a crime, like you said, they're going to be like,
ooh, who's around me? Do I know this guy? If
not, I better double check and reassure myself
that they're not law enforcement. you're always
going to get questioned. If you don't get questioned,
you're probably not onto anybody that's doing
anything illegal. That's 100 % accurate. It's
something that it doesn't, you wouldn't think
that's the case until you experience it. You
would think that because they're questioning
me, I did something suspicious or something happened.
Exactly. Right. But yeah, you wouldn't, you wouldn't
think that like, wait a minute, you just committed
a slew of crimes in front of me. Now you're asking
me. In fact, I just had a case It was a different
case just just a few years ago and the and these
two guys were specifically saying to me they
thought I was with the They had gotten burned
by the USDA and they're like how could the USDA
know and it was a total coincidence So like well,
maybe it's the new guy and not only did they
say are you with the USDA? They said are you
wearing a wire? What the hell? And, and they're
like, and then one of them goes, cause if you
are, we're going to kill you. So they just asked
me if I'm recording the conversation in which
they said they would kill me if I'm recording
it. So people do stuff that doesn't make sense.
No, no. And this is, you know, this is one of
those situations where going back to the boat,
just to reiterate with, with listeners, how dangerous
that situation is, you know, they threatened
you said, if you're your cop, you're going overboard,
but, but Yeah, it was dumb of them to say that
because if you are a cop, presumably, you're
either going to testify later or something's
getting recorded. But the reality of the situation
is even if you were a cop and they were suspicious
of you or they found your recording device or
whatever, they caught you switching out that
SD card and they beat the crap out of you and
throw you overboard. All they have to say is,
yeah, he got hit. But the net boom was swinging.
And he got hit. And he fell over. And we looked
for him. We couldn't find him. Because literally,
in the Water's Office of California, you're going
to live, unless you have a Mustang suit on, you're
going to live about 20 minutes max. And then
you're going to go into hypothermia. And you're
going to dry and drown. So they could easily
dump you overboard, leave you. And there would
not be enough evidence to prove that they murdered
you. They could just say, he got hit by a boom.
We looked for him. He fell overboard. It happens
all the time. Legitimately, it happens. Fishermen
die all the time. So it is a very dangerous situation
that you were in. So this is very cool. So now
you're on these two boats. You're actually documenting
violations. You're actually getting their reactions
too, which shows knowledge that they know they're
breaking the law. Don't put this on your. camera
kind of stuff. What, how did, how did that develop
then? What happened after that? So, I was giving
all of the evidence. I was in touch with Erin,
you know, letting her know, you know, I wasn't
signed on as a CI. So it wasn't like the old
days, you know, but, but I was in touch and letting
her know, hey, this is what I'm doing. And then
she got me in touch with the U S attorney's office
and Noah. And so, yeah, once we went to NOAA,
because, you know, it was marine mammal violations
and they were going to handle that. Basically,
it was, you know, they waited for all the evidence
to come together. And then, you know, we said,
look, you know, we're what our ultimate goal
with this is to go to the press and use this
to help pass legislation that will ban this fishery
from California. You won't be able to own these
nets. you know, in, in state waters. That was,
that was the goal of the NGO you were working
for. Yeah. That was the goal of the NGO. Yeah.
And there were a variety of NGOs that had been
working on that. And so, but you know, no one
had, no one had evidence of this, you know, actual
footage of the sea mammals coming up dead, which
by the way, I guess what I should say real quick
is that the reason it's a violation, which I
didn't know this until I started doing work for
you is that perfectly legal to have a dolphin
come up dead in your net. perfectly legal. It's
that you have to report it. Exactly. And I feel
after all of this time on those boats, hanging
out at the docks, talking to all these captains,
working undercover on the boats, I feel very
comfortable saying virtually no one reports their
bycatch. Right. You know, what you see on these
fishing shows is someone aware that the camera
is there and they're putting on an act. You bet.
Yeah. Um, and so, you know, I, I was filming
the violations, then taking pictures of their,
of their fishing records, showing that they are
reporting nothing. And so, uh, the U S attorney's
office got with, with, uh, with Noah and Aaron
to, to pull that together to work on, on finding
the captains. But that case came out, the footage
came out and was released in 2018 and boom. that
legislation passed in California and the fishery
is now banned. There are no drift gill nets in
California. Awesome. Cause I mean, that is awesome
because it's there, you know, there's people
out there that are arguing, we've been in the
fishing business for generations and we did,
we need to be able to keep fishing like this.
No, actually not because If you've been for generations
doing massive damage to protected animals, marine
mammals, seals, sea lions, dolphins, whales,
they're all protected by the Marine Mammal Protection
Act, some of them by the Endangered Species Act.
You don't get to continue your family business
and wipe out species in the process of doing
it. That's just not part of the plan. Yeah, a
hundred percent. There's um, there's a conversation
that I had with several captains and it was it
was a very it's as strange as the conversation
that's like wait a minute, you're a cop I'm gonna
kill you. It's the conversation would be this
they would say all these stupid regulations You
know, there's no point in why do we have to have
regulations? They're gonna give us quotas. That's
just dumb I mean, I do have to say the lot of
the fish have disappeared we over fished them.
And so I understand why they have the regulations,
but there's no point to regulations. I mean,
it's like, I wish I had all of those conversations
on tape because the mental, the mental gymnastics
that they would do within two minutes of discussing
it was just, it was, it made no sense. Yeah.
I've heard it myself before many times and that,
you know, often they'll they'll will blame other
fishermen or other, you know, but it's never
them. Right? Right. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's always
someone else. It's never them. Exactly. And then
they'll go out and then dead animals, dead dolphins
coming up in the net. Yeah. And again, you know,
just so listeners understand to remind them,
when you first describe this, you're talking
about nets that go out behind just a single boat
for miles. And they're potentially, it's not
just one dolphin. You know, we're talking about,
if you aggregate all the boats, you're talking
about many, many, probably hundreds of miles
of net out there killing who knows how many.
And if you're not reporting it, we don't know
how many you're killing, right? It might be way
more than the population can support. Absolutely.
Yeah. No, I mean, that's, yeah. It's like this,
you know, it's not a coincidence. that it just
so happens that the two boats that I was on,
that every trip on those boats, I saw dead dolphins
and multiple dead dolphins, multiple dead sea
lions on every trip. It's not like it's isolated
to that. And they would tell me about, they told
me about a great white shark, they got tangled
up in the net and was dead. They told me about
a whale, a pilot, and they've told me about all
that stuff. And I photographed their catch vlogs,
nothing about that whatsoever. Right. And great
white sharks are a state protected species under
California law. So that's also a concern. Really
cool. So you were able to, this is really neat
because you combined the world of what you were
doing with the NGO, the animal protection, animal
rights, animal cruelty issues, with conservation
as well, right? The conservation law enforcement
agency's interest in protecting species as a
whole, right? Um, did the U S attorney charge
those captains as a result of your case? Yeah.
Um, so what happened with that was, uh, there
was two boats of the Albatross and the Margarito
and the Margarito was still out there. They've
changed their fishing gear and I forget it was
something like an $8 ,000 fine. It was a small
fine because with them, what I did not do was
get one entire steady shot of the entire net
going out and coming back. to show that they
didn't have these devices throughout the net
that is supposed to emit the sound of a, it's
like a ping, it sounds like a killer whale that
keep the sea mammals away. What I did do was
I showed different portions of the net and then
I showed how they had those devices in a bucket
on the top of the boat instead of on the net.
But because I didn't get that entire steady shot,
they're like, I'm sorry, you know, that's a problem.
But I got it on the Albatro. which resulted,
it was like over $70 ,000. I'm not mistaken.
It was a massive fine, but irrelevant because
the Albatross mysteriously sunk in Harbor. So,
you know, I guess, I guess the captain saw the
writing on the wall there. Can anybody say insurance
fraud, right? Is that an insurance? Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. You know, and so that's, you know, it's,
it's, it's disappointing, you know, that not
everybody was sent to jail, not everybody was
hit with a massive fine, but banning an entire
fishery and knowing that that will save lives.
And that saving those lives, that's gonna be
such a, not just a benefit to those individual
lives, but to all the wildlife in the ocean.
You know, that's what it was all about. Yeah.
I mean, and that's what's great about this case
is you were able to separate out. You've got
the criminal law, federal law enforcement stuff
you're documenting and reporting. And then you've
also got the goals of the NGO, which is to take
a hard look at this drift netting and to expose
kind of what's happening and at least inform
legislators and the public about it. And great
result on both sides. I mean, that is the perfect
marriage with different interests coming together
to achieve their respective goals without interfering
with each other, you know? Yeah, but it, you
know, very seriously, you know, it would never
have happened without you. You know, if I never
would have thought I could go out and I can work
undercover on fishing boats, and then I would
even know what the violations are that would
be on them. And that, you know, There's federal
agencies that will say, yes, we'd love to take
that evidence and do something with it. If you
had not reached out all those years before, that
was the catalyst to that. There's an enormous
amount of NGOs that laid down the entire foundation
to help pass that legislation. So I'll do credit
for them. But I have to say, like, I think the
footage really helped to get it passed, right?
And the footage would not have exist if you had
not written that letter all those years ago,
man. Very cool. I love it. Do you feel like working,
you know, connecting with not just me, but the
feds in general and working with law enforcement
in the way that you worked with the U .S. Fish
and Wildlife Service? Did that kind of have an
impact on... you your success or your interest
or ability to work with other law enforcement
agencies on the animal cruelty stuff in the future?
No. I really I really want to say yes, man. I
really want to say so. So basically is that I
and this is this is a whole thing. And I discussed
this in my book because, you know, I, you know,
obviously, I'm someone where Before I did this,
I wanted to be a cop. I wanted to go into law
enforcement. I was both pursuing a career in
law enforcement, studying criminal justice, and
I was becoming an animal rights activist. And
so I did this job to kind of like, hold on, let
me split the difference and maybe this is where
I'm needed. But I had that much of a mindset
for law enforcement. And I have worked with incredible
cops, incredible agents, you and Aaron. That
said, I have been illegally arrested and wrongfully
convicted for a crime I didn't commit on a dog
cruelty case. I have had cops... I just recently
filmed a cop committing animal cruelty. He's
still a cop. I've had another cop... Uh, we got
body cam footage from a cop who responded to,
uh, uh, this subject that I filmed committing
animal cruelty. And he says, you see on the body
cam footage, she tells her twice. If he sees
me, he's going to kill me. And she laughs, you
know, I, yeah, the, the, uh, so I've, I've worked
with very good law enforcement that has taken
the evidence, nailed the bad guys and did wonderful.
But the amount of stories that I have where I
am out there in rural America. And what I'm doing
is a cruelty case that is a threat to a member
of the community and a major taxpayer in the
community. More often than not, there's this
response from local law enforcement that is either
not welcoming or threatening. It breaks my heart
to say that because I know you have a lot of
L .E. listeners and I love y 'all. I'm not trying
to make anyone feel bad, but that's that's the
truth on my side of things. No, and you know,
I appreciate your honesty on that, because it's
important. It's really important for law enforcement
to recognize its own issues that it needs to
deal with, right? But it also gives me an opportunity
to get up on my soapbox just a little bit, because
even in the US Fish and Wildlife Service, sometimes
there is a, you know, there's a reluctance to,
I guess, I don't want to say acknowledge probably
isn't the right word, but associate with animal
rights groups because they're often viewed as
kind of radical or, you know, kind of pushing
the edge of the envelope or whatever. And certainly
I've had negative experiences with animal rights
groups that are too, you know, they don't understand
the law, they don't understand what needs to
go into a criminal, approving a criminal case
in court and the steps we need to take to protect
people's constitutional rights and all that stuff
when we do an investigation. And they can be
incredibly annoying because They accuse a guy
like me of not doing my job because I'm not doing
it fast enough or in the way that they envision
it ought to be done. But there's a middle ground
there, right? There are places where the interests
overlap. And if local police need to remember,
animal cruelty is a crime in almost every state.
And in many states now, it's a felony and can
be a felony in certain circumstances. And it's
proven over and over again that animal cruelty
can lead to crimes against human beings. You
know, the people that are predisposed to hurting
an animal early in life often go on to hurting
human beings. So regardless of what they think
about it, there is a public safety issue and
there's a legal issue that they need to pay attention
to. And my soapbox would be look for the people
that can help you get your job done in whatever
form that takes. So when I see Pete Paxton on
death on a factory farm, I'm not thinking, oh,
is this crazy animal rights guy? I'm looking,
and I'm saying, this dude is an incredible investigator
who's got more courage than I have on these undercover
cases. And we got to capitalize on this guy's
skills and abilities. And in fact, I tried to
recruit you to become an agent hard. I thought
you should be a U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service
Special Agent. We ran into the age problem. Yeah,
I was really considering it. In fact, if it hadn't
been the age thing, that fishing case, the Drift
-Gilnett case may not have happened. I really
thought my career was done, wanted to go back
and pursue a career in law enforcement and was
actually at the point of applying, not just You
know, I dealt with the age problem that I was
applying to state agencies, local agencies, you
know, no one, no one was accepting my applications.
And I made this last ditch effort to turn my
career around. And that happened. It's been nonstop
work all these years later. Yeah. Yeah. But no,
but I, you know, I, I appreciate all, like every
time I've, I've had, you know, when I have evidence
and all I need is for Ellie to take it. Like
that's it. And whenever they're skeptical or
they're thinking, who's this crazy activist?
I guess one thing I can say is like, just as
there is the bad cop stereotype, there's the
crazy activist stereotype and it's real. It's
true. I run into them myself. In fact, I just
gave a speech at an animal rights conference
not too long ago. About the difference between
being a hero and being a professional, right?
You know because I see it in the movement I see
enough people that you know, they they want to
romanticize what I do and I have to explain like,
you know, you know, I Know many other professional
undercover investigators and the animal rights
people to agree with this, you know We are absolutely
sure as hell not heroes. Yeah, you know we undercover
animal cruelty work means being in the position
where the worst things happen and we don't break
the law, but we do a lot of, we do the job. If
you're undercover at the slaughterhouse, what
do you think you're gonna do? If you're undercover
at the hog farm where people are castrating pigs
and what do you think you're gonna do? And it's
not hero work. And so there needs to be an attempt,
I think on both sides, kind of like make sure
we portray not just act correctly, portray things
correctly so that when we approach each other,
we have the right reputation with each other.
Yeah. Reasonable expectations, right? Yeah. Well,
Pete, we're coming to the end of time. But before
we sign off, I do want to give you an opportunity
to tell us a little bit about the NGO that you
and your girlfriend have formed. Tell us a little
bit about that if you want to. Yeah. So my girlfriend
and I run a group called SEED. It stands for
Strategies for Ethical and Environmental Development.
Our website is ethicalstrategies .org. We have
two ends. We do cruelty investigations, and then
we work with litigators to sue factory farms
that pollute waterways. So that's the Clean Water
Act, Resource Conservation Recovery Act. And
so she's the brains behind the entire thing,
has formed the NGO, gotten in touch with litigators
and is working on suing factory farms, doing
all that. I'm just handling some cruelty cases,
but we had a big case come out recently. where
I worked undercover at, I documented two more,
but then worked undercover at 15 livestock auctions
across the US. And the footage is all up on,
you know, it's online for people to see where
I saw some pretty egregious acts of cruelty at
every single place. And 80 % of livestock producers
get their animals to market. That's like to the
grocery store. through livestock auctions, right?
We usually think it's a small place, I mean,
JBS and Cargill buy from these places. And I
saw teenagers committing cruelty in front of
their parents, parents committing cruelty in
front of their kids, customers watching it and
laughing about it. And it's what I call a culture
of cruelty where you have good people. In fact,
I put up stories, I used aliases, I put up stories
of some of the people I saw committing cruel
acts to explain These are just people, right?
But they're extremely stressed, they're dehydrated,
they're under a lot of pressure, and these animals
won't move and they have to move. And the rule
of thumb, just real quick to explain this for
anyone who's wondering, when you talk about a
commercial animal environment, the rule of thumb
is the less human interaction with the animals,
the more neglect. The more human interaction,
the more violence. Really? Yeah, and at those
auctions, constant interaction. Get them off
the trailer, move them to a pen, get them to
the auction ring, get them to a pen, get them
on a trailer. And man, if one of those animals
can't stand, or they're too scared. That's what
makes them fear and pain, right? So we got a
story in Vox that had Apple News top stories.
We got a whole website up for it. And we're doing
stuff like that so that, you know, of course
we want the enforcement end on abusers, but we
also want to try to bring cultural awareness.
That's really the biggest goal. Absolutely, absolutely.
And you know, I've talked about this on the podcast
before too with regard to animal or wildlife
crimes. And it's true, obviously, now for cruelty
issues as well, or animal care issues, when you
put the commercial aspect to it, it turns the
animal, it takes them from being a sentient being
into being a commodity. And when you turn that
off in your brain, it's not a sentient being.
It's a commodity, and it's about money. The cruelty
comes easier, especially for people who are predisposed
to it anyway. The commercialization really can
have an insidious effect. If you're talking about
living beings being commercialized, it is not
good for the animal involved, whether they're
wild or domestic. Mic drop. Yeah, man. I'm just
going to steal that from you and say that in
all my animal rights speeches now. That's it.
You're welcome to do that because I've stolen
many things you've said over the years. So let
me just say, you and I have built a friendship
over the years. We remain friends and we will
remain friends and stay in touch. But I admire
the hell out of what you do. And I think you're
a consummate professional. I really enjoyed working
with you. And be careful out there. Be very safe.
But thank you for all the work you're doing.
And thank you for all the work you did for Fish
and Wildlife Service and the NOAA agents that
you worked with in Long Beach. I appreciate it.
Man, thank you. Thanks for everything you've
done. The world's a better place with you and
all the other agents out there. Well, thanks
Pete. Thank you so much for being on the show.
This is a great episode. I'm so happy you came
on the season. I think our listeners are going
to be just fascinated to get a window into the
world of the confidential informant. Thanks so
much. Thanks for being with us and everybody
out there. We'll see you next time. Nature's
Secret Service is written and produced by me,
Ed Newcomer. and is co -produced by the DHTV
team here at California State University, Dominguez
Hills. Follow us on social media and connect
with us online at naturessecretservice .com.