WEBVTT 00:00:00.140 --> 00:00:02.540 If you want to learn more about the topics of 00:00:02.540 --> 00:00:06.219 today's episode, visit the podcast website at 00:00:06.219 --> 00:00:09.339 naturessecretservice .com. Thanks for listening. 00:00:34.040 --> 00:00:38.119 Okay, people listen up. Here we go. This is Nature's 00:00:38.119 --> 00:00:40.060 Secret Service, the podcast that puts you in 00:00:40.060 --> 00:00:42.399 the room with the men and women of wildlife law 00:00:42.399 --> 00:00:44.979 enforcement. My name is Ed Newcomer. I'm your 00:00:44.979 --> 00:00:48.320 host. And today we have a very unique episode. 00:00:48.740 --> 00:00:51.100 I'm sure if you've listened to prior episodes 00:00:51.100 --> 00:00:53.619 of this podcast, you've heard me talk about working 00:00:53.619 --> 00:00:56.859 with confidential informants. And usually it's 00:00:56.859 --> 00:01:00.219 been while talking to other agents and we're 00:01:00.219 --> 00:01:02.939 usually complaining about how difficult it is 00:01:02.939 --> 00:01:06.040 to work with confidential informants. But today, 00:01:06.239 --> 00:01:09.620 our guest is actually a former confidential informant 00:01:09.620 --> 00:01:12.500 for the US Fish and Wildlife Service. And I would 00:01:12.500 --> 00:01:16.000 like to introduce you to Pete Paxton. Pete, thanks 00:01:16.000 --> 00:01:18.040 for being on the show. I really appreciate it. 00:01:19.439 --> 00:01:24.480 I have to tell you part of why I am so excited 00:01:24.480 --> 00:01:29.219 to be here. OK, so they're in. There is this 00:01:29.219 --> 00:01:31.900 story I have told so many people in my life, 00:01:32.019 --> 00:01:35.640 and it's this. It's one day I get this phone 00:01:35.640 --> 00:01:39.840 call and this guy goes, Pete Paxton, this is 00:01:39.840 --> 00:01:42.159 Special Agent Ed Newcomer. And you had a very 00:01:42.159 --> 00:01:43.719 deep voice back then. I don't know if you remember 00:01:43.719 --> 00:01:45.400 that. You had the whole Batman thing going on, 00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:50.280 right? The federal government wants you to go 00:01:50.280 --> 00:01:52.579 undercover. And everywhere I tell this story 00:01:52.579 --> 00:01:55.700 to is like, shut up, Pete. That didn't happen. 00:01:56.189 --> 00:02:00.090 This is the guy everybody. Okay, this is it. 00:02:00.989 --> 00:02:03.030 And the Fed gave you a call out of the blue, 00:02:03.129 --> 00:02:07.230 didn't he? Yes. That's how I'm telling it. I 00:02:07.230 --> 00:02:09.569 love it. You know, the sad truth is that the 00:02:09.569 --> 00:02:11.710 reason my voice was so low when that happened 00:02:11.710 --> 00:02:14.009 was probably because I had a cold or something. 00:02:17.610 --> 00:02:20.590 But you know, that's the perfect lead in because 00:02:21.810 --> 00:02:24.889 I want to say, you know, the reason that I asked 00:02:24.889 --> 00:02:27.949 you to be on the podcast, because, you know, 00:02:28.150 --> 00:02:31.530 you still do undercover work. And so there is 00:02:31.530 --> 00:02:34.110 some risk to you for being on shows like this. 00:02:34.490 --> 00:02:38.689 But you agree with me in that there's this balance 00:02:38.689 --> 00:02:40.949 between making sure the public knows what's going 00:02:40.949 --> 00:02:44.310 on and how things work and that their taxpayer 00:02:44.310 --> 00:02:46.469 money is being spent for good reasons and all 00:02:46.469 --> 00:02:50.669 of that. And you have to balance that against, 00:02:50.870 --> 00:02:52.729 we have to be careful and we have to maintain 00:02:52.729 --> 00:02:57.629 operational security. But we're going to balance 00:02:57.629 --> 00:02:59.169 that out. We're going to make sure nobody can 00:02:59.169 --> 00:03:01.310 see you and that kind of thing. And you're very 00:03:01.310 --> 00:03:04.370 safe. You're very safe in what you do. But let 00:03:04.370 --> 00:03:09.689 me give you the real story behind how I reached 00:03:09.689 --> 00:03:14.969 out to Pete Paxton. And by the way, that's obviously 00:03:14.969 --> 00:03:21.439 not his real name. What year? So, okay, so there 00:03:21.439 --> 00:03:24.139 was a time when I was working as a special agent, 00:03:24.319 --> 00:03:26.379 I was doing undercover work myself, I was here 00:03:26.379 --> 00:03:29.580 in LA, and I'm watching just in the evening one 00:03:29.580 --> 00:03:32.180 night, I'm watching a television show on HBO 00:03:32.180 --> 00:03:36.419 called Death on a Factory Farm. And what year 00:03:36.419 --> 00:03:41.460 did that come out, Pete? The investigation in 00:03:41.460 --> 00:03:45.180 that doc was 06, but the doc came out in 2009. 00:03:45.259 --> 00:03:48.759 2009. OK, so that was like right after I had 00:03:48.759 --> 00:03:50.939 finished Operation High Roller. I'd finished 00:03:50.939 --> 00:03:54.780 working undercover on Kojima and Operation RTG. 00:03:55.479 --> 00:03:59.639 I'd kind of been in it. And here I'm watching 00:03:59.639 --> 00:04:04.639 this documentary about this guy who goes undercover 00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:08.060 on a factory farm, like a big industrial type 00:04:08.060 --> 00:04:12.509 farm, to uncover. pretty egregious animal cruelty 00:04:12.509 --> 00:04:15.789 against farm animals. And I mean, we won't go 00:04:15.789 --> 00:04:19.149 into all the detail of what you saw in that investigation. 00:04:19.449 --> 00:04:22.550 But I mean, these were people who were just taking 00:04:22.550 --> 00:04:26.589 pleasure out of harming and torturing animals 00:04:26.589 --> 00:04:29.329 beyond. We're not talking about people that are 00:04:29.329 --> 00:04:31.430 slaughtering animals for food in a humane way. 00:04:31.589 --> 00:04:33.910 We're talking about people who were just being. 00:04:35.110 --> 00:04:37.990 sadistic toward another sentient being in really 00:04:37.990 --> 00:04:41.310 disgusting ways. And these were people who, just 00:04:41.310 --> 00:04:44.009 from watching it, I knew these were dangerous 00:04:44.009 --> 00:04:47.110 people because they obviously had no empathy 00:04:47.110 --> 00:04:49.550 toward another living thing. And the whole time 00:04:49.550 --> 00:04:52.069 I'm watching this show, I'm like, holy shit, 00:04:52.230 --> 00:04:55.089 this dude, this guy, you know, the more that 00:04:55.089 --> 00:04:57.449 they talked about what you were doing in the 00:04:57.449 --> 00:05:01.350 show and you were that undercover guy, your ass 00:05:01.350 --> 00:05:03.310 was hanging out there. I mean, I thought about 00:05:03.399 --> 00:05:06.779 My perspective, and I had the federal government 00:05:06.779 --> 00:05:09.459 behind me. I had armed agents who were my cover 00:05:09.459 --> 00:05:12.040 team sometimes. I always had somebody who knew 00:05:12.040 --> 00:05:14.240 where I was and what I was doing. And I carried 00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:17.279 a gun myself sometimes. You didn't have any of 00:05:17.279 --> 00:05:20.480 that. You were on this farm. And boy, if these 00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:22.459 guys had figured out who you were, it would have 00:05:22.459 --> 00:05:27.319 been, at a minimum, a serious physical beating, 00:05:27.480 --> 00:05:30.509 if not worse. I mean, very dangerous stuff. So 00:05:30.509 --> 00:05:33.149 I watched this whole documentary, and I said, 00:05:33.170 --> 00:05:34.790 I've got to get in touch with this guy. I mean, 00:05:35.110 --> 00:05:38.899 I just have to talk to this undercover guy. So 00:05:38.899 --> 00:05:40.899 I, I don't even remember how I figured out how 00:05:40.899 --> 00:05:43.379 to get ahold of you. I think I just use my investigator 00:05:43.379 --> 00:05:46.399 skills to go to HBO, I think. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. 00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:48.379 Yeah. I think, yeah. So I think you got in touch 00:05:48.379 --> 00:05:52.199 with HBO and then they sent you to the humane 00:05:52.199 --> 00:05:54.259 farming association. That's what I did that case 00:05:54.259 --> 00:05:58.100 for. And then HFA forwarded me this letter and 00:05:58.100 --> 00:06:01.240 I had to read it a couple of times. Like, I'm 00:06:01.240 --> 00:06:03.480 fucking serious. Like, just a federal agent just 00:06:03.480 --> 00:06:05.939 reached out, like, hey, let's talk shop about 00:06:05.939 --> 00:06:09.259 UC work. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And yeah, and 00:06:09.259 --> 00:06:11.959 you called me. And I was so happy to be in touch 00:06:11.959 --> 00:06:14.420 with you, because first of all, my first goal 00:06:14.420 --> 00:06:17.680 and intention was simply to talk to you about 00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:20.759 what that experience was like for you, because 00:06:20.759 --> 00:06:23.939 I could appreciate it from my own experience. 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:28.279 And then it was like, It's beyond a level beyond 00:06:28.279 --> 00:06:31.300 what I was doing in terms of like the risk and 00:06:31.300 --> 00:06:33.800 your skill I was very impressed with your undercover 00:06:33.800 --> 00:06:35.980 techniques and your skill and your ability to 00:06:35.980 --> 00:06:39.220 take it to the next level which is Producing 00:06:39.220 --> 00:06:41.920 accurate reports, you know for law enforcement 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:43.959 and then taking it in that case you even went 00:06:43.959 --> 00:06:47.639 on to testify in court. So you know not every 00:06:47.639 --> 00:06:49.600 undercover agent they might be great at undercover 00:06:49.600 --> 00:06:52.259 but they're terrible report writers or they're 00:06:52.259 --> 00:06:55.000 not good on on the stand you know and you you 00:06:55.000 --> 00:06:56.699 had the whole package and I really wanted to 00:06:56.699 --> 00:07:05.180 make sure we met. That really changed the trajectory 00:07:05.180 --> 00:07:07.709 for me after you reached out. That's awesome. 00:07:07.709 --> 00:07:10.329 I'm glad to hear that because the next step in 00:07:10.329 --> 00:07:12.709 this story, of course, is that as we talked and 00:07:12.709 --> 00:07:15.050 we stayed in touch over the next year or so, 00:07:16.110 --> 00:07:19.449 we came up with a plan or I came up with an idea 00:07:19.449 --> 00:07:21.790 of how you could work for the US Fish and Wildlife 00:07:21.790 --> 00:07:25.230 Service. And I'm going to ask you to talk about 00:07:25.230 --> 00:07:27.370 that in just a second. But I'll give a little 00:07:27.370 --> 00:07:31.290 background of why I came to this idea. And that 00:07:31.290 --> 00:07:36.920 is OK, so listeners need to remember the previous 00:07:36.920 --> 00:07:39.300 comments me and other agents have made about 00:07:39.300 --> 00:07:43.439 confidential informants. They're usually unpredictable, 00:07:43.660 --> 00:07:45.879 difficult to work with, and that kind of thing. 00:07:45.939 --> 00:07:48.500 So if you find somebody who's really good, you 00:07:48.500 --> 00:07:50.779 tend to look for a really good project for them. 00:07:51.480 --> 00:07:54.180 And one of the things that always vexed us on 00:07:54.180 --> 00:07:58.449 the West Coast in California was we knew that 00:07:58.449 --> 00:08:00.670 there were fishing vessels operating off the 00:08:00.670 --> 00:08:03.069 coast of California, up and down from LA all 00:08:03.069 --> 00:08:07.509 the way up to Monterey Bay. Perseaners, drift 00:08:07.509 --> 00:08:10.250 netters, different types of fishing vessels that 00:08:10.250 --> 00:08:16.230 would routinely entangle seals, sea lions, dolphins, 00:08:16.889 --> 00:08:19.829 other marine mammals, including endangered sea 00:08:19.829 --> 00:08:23.620 otters, but also would entangle birds like protected 00:08:23.620 --> 00:08:26.600 pelicans and all kinds of sea birds. And at the 00:08:26.600 --> 00:08:29.600 time, the brown pelican was still listed as threatened. 00:08:30.199 --> 00:08:33.080 And then, of course, the sea otter up in Monterey 00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:36.299 Bay is listed as endangered. But what happens 00:08:36.299 --> 00:08:38.179 is they entangle these animals in their nets. 00:08:38.299 --> 00:08:40.399 And then rather than do the right thing and back 00:08:40.399 --> 00:08:43.080 the nets out and humanely release the animal, 00:08:43.080 --> 00:08:45.519 try to save it. They're out in the middle of 00:08:45.519 --> 00:08:47.500 the ocean. They don't care. They just say screw 00:08:47.500 --> 00:08:50.080 it and they run the run the either drown the 00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:52.940 animal in their nets or Maybe shoot it or do 00:08:52.940 --> 00:08:55.200 something awful to it Or maybe they just run 00:08:55.200 --> 00:08:57.460 the nets up through the blocks in there in their 00:08:57.460 --> 00:09:00.240 retrieval gear and that breaks the bird's wings 00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:03.620 and kills them or Yet, you know kills them at 00:09:03.620 --> 00:09:06.559 best at worst It breaks their wings and they're 00:09:06.559 --> 00:09:09.000 they're maimed and left to float on the ocean 00:09:09.000 --> 00:09:11.519 so we knew this was an ongoing problem because 00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:13.919 we had dead animals would wash up every time 00:09:13.919 --> 00:09:16.379 the The fishing fleets would operate off the 00:09:16.379 --> 00:09:20.720 coast And so we in my office we kind of were 00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:23.440 like crap We got to do something about this and 00:09:23.440 --> 00:09:25.500 the first thing we thought about was well, shoot 00:09:25.500 --> 00:09:28.179 Let's put an undercover on the boats But the 00:09:28.179 --> 00:09:31.320 problem is that these boats go out and work days 00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:34.000 at a time sometimes, you know many miles off 00:09:34.000 --> 00:09:37.720 coast It's really difficult to have a full -time 00:09:37.720 --> 00:09:40.740 special agent then go get a job working on a 00:09:40.740 --> 00:09:43.539 boat So it's kind of tailor -made for confidential 00:09:43.539 --> 00:09:46.639 informant. And the last thing I'll say about 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:48.159 this, because people want to hear from you, Pete. 00:09:48.220 --> 00:09:50.000 They want to hear your story. The last thing 00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:51.960 I'll say on this is with the US Fish and Wildlife 00:09:51.960 --> 00:09:54.120 Service, like all federal law enforcement agencies, 00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:56.500 we're very careful to protect confidential informant. 00:09:56.559 --> 00:09:59.639 So if we end up deciding to work with one, we 00:09:59.639 --> 00:10:01.480 give them what's called a confidential number. 00:10:01.559 --> 00:10:06.470 They have what's called a CPI number. A contract 00:10:06.470 --> 00:10:08.529 is signed with them that assigns that number 00:10:08.529 --> 00:10:11.309 to them. And the only people that really know 00:10:11.309 --> 00:10:15.710 that number are agents at headquarters, the special 00:10:15.710 --> 00:10:18.490 agent who's handling the informant, and maybe 00:10:18.490 --> 00:10:20.970 that special agent's boss. But other special 00:10:20.970 --> 00:10:24.529 agents in the district, nobody else knows the 00:10:24.529 --> 00:10:27.190 name associated with that number. So it's a very 00:10:27.190 --> 00:10:29.809 good way to protect people. But Pete Paxton, 00:10:29.850 --> 00:10:31.570 when he started to work for me, became known 00:10:31.570 --> 00:10:34.730 as CPI. And then there was a number after it. 00:10:34.879 --> 00:10:39.480 And we pay our informants, and not great, but 00:10:39.480 --> 00:10:41.419 we do pay our informants for the work that they 00:10:41.419 --> 00:10:44.899 do. So Pete, now let's flash forward to your 00:10:44.899 --> 00:10:47.779 experience here. You get that call from Ed Newcomer. 00:10:49.220 --> 00:10:52.360 We're becoming friends, and we're exchanging 00:10:52.360 --> 00:10:55.840 stories and notes. And I ultimately come to you 00:10:55.840 --> 00:10:58.960 and ask you, hey, what do you think about helping 00:10:58.960 --> 00:11:02.259 us? you know, infiltrate these fishing fleets. 00:11:02.279 --> 00:11:04.320 What was it? Do you remember that conversation 00:11:04.320 --> 00:11:07.519 or what your first reaction was? So that was 00:11:07.519 --> 00:11:12.179 a dream come true for me because I have only 00:11:12.179 --> 00:11:17.299 three, I've done my job for since 2001. So it's 00:11:17.299 --> 00:11:20.179 been 24 years now. That was only one of three 00:11:20.179 --> 00:11:24.360 times that while I was undercover, law enforcement 00:11:24.360 --> 00:11:27.720 was aware of what I was doing. Every other job 00:11:27.720 --> 00:11:30.799 I've ever done, you know, There's no, there's 00:11:30.799 --> 00:11:33.399 no prosecutor. There's no cop. There's no agent 00:11:33.399 --> 00:11:35.059 that has any idea what's going on. There's no 00:11:35.059 --> 00:11:37.639 kind of like support like that. And I thought 00:11:37.639 --> 00:11:43.519 not only, and that was the only time that not 00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:46.600 only was I undercover and you know, Ellie knows 00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:50.919 what I'm doing. It was your idea. Right? It wasn't 00:11:50.919 --> 00:11:52.620 me saying, I want to do something. What do you 00:11:52.620 --> 00:11:53.899 think? And it's like, yeah, well, we'll see if 00:11:53.899 --> 00:11:56.200 we got the time. It was, no, we, this is, we 00:11:56.200 --> 00:11:58.179 got a plan, man. We know what the targets are 00:11:58.179 --> 00:11:59.419 doing. We know what the violations are. That 00:11:59.419 --> 00:12:02.779 was a dream come true. Cool. And, and I was also 00:12:02.779 --> 00:12:04.980 excited to go do it because at that point I had 00:12:04.980 --> 00:12:07.279 a few years under my belt and the kind of targets 00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:13.720 that I was working had begun to quite literally 00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:18.399 create. They have a, there's, there's groups 00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:22.460 that If you work for an NGO, like an animal rights 00:12:22.460 --> 00:12:26.460 NGO, there are anti -animal rights NGOs and they 00:12:26.460 --> 00:12:29.159 have lists of known investigators to keep us 00:12:29.159 --> 00:12:31.340 out. I'm proud to say I was the first, I was, 00:12:31.500 --> 00:12:35.580 I was the original list. It was just me. It was 00:12:35.580 --> 00:12:38.720 like back in 2009 when that doc came out, they're 00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:42.460 like, all right, stop hiring this guy. Here he 00:12:42.460 --> 00:12:44.960 is. They had a picture of me from a license. 00:12:45.620 --> 00:12:49.759 They had my full date of birth. They had my social 00:12:49.759 --> 00:12:51.700 up there. They redacted some of it later. They 00:12:51.700 --> 00:12:55.259 had every known name I'd ever used. And so I 00:12:55.259 --> 00:12:57.500 thought, man, OK, let me head out to California. 00:12:57.600 --> 00:12:59.279 No one's going to be looking for me. So I was 00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:05.259 very excited about that. And it was a new experience 00:13:05.259 --> 00:13:11.139 hitting those docs. Because I'm used to a blue 00:13:11.139 --> 00:13:14.740 collar mentality. OK. Yeah, you've been a worker. 00:13:15.059 --> 00:13:17.240 And to back up, I think listeners kind of get 00:13:17.240 --> 00:13:21.389 the gist. prior to working with me, you had been 00:13:21.389 --> 00:13:24.629 exclusively doing animal rights investigations, 00:13:24.889 --> 00:13:27.970 right? Like animal cruelty investigations. Yeah. 00:13:28.250 --> 00:13:33.049 Yeah. My career has been largely undercover work, 00:13:33.149 --> 00:13:34.909 a lot of surveillance, but a lot of undercover 00:13:34.909 --> 00:13:36.889 work, including, you know, working undercover 00:13:36.889 --> 00:13:41.700 at it's, it's at facilities so that it's, I do 00:13:41.700 --> 00:13:44.019 animal cruelty cases, but it's all commercial 00:13:44.019 --> 00:13:46.840 cruelty. So I don't, I don't, if your neighbor 00:13:46.840 --> 00:13:48.580 is kicking their dog, there's not much I can 00:13:48.580 --> 00:13:50.940 do about that. But if it's a puppy mill, right? 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:53.860 Right. There's 20, a hundred, you know, 900 dogs 00:13:53.860 --> 00:13:56.440 at a time. I can work undercover at that place 00:13:56.440 --> 00:13:59.600 or do surveillance of that place. So farms, slaughterhouses, 00:13:59.860 --> 00:14:02.529 puppy mills, and then. going to add fishing boats 00:14:02.529 --> 00:14:06.570 to the list. So I was excited. Yeah. Yeah. And 00:14:06.570 --> 00:14:09.309 this is too, this is interesting too, because 00:14:09.309 --> 00:14:12.330 certainly whatever these guys are doing on the 00:14:12.330 --> 00:14:14.690 fishing boats would probably qualify as animal 00:14:14.690 --> 00:14:17.870 cruelty. But from, from my perspective in the 00:14:17.870 --> 00:14:19.450 U S fish and wildlife service, we were looking 00:14:19.450 --> 00:14:22.769 at it as violations of the migratory bird treaty 00:14:22.769 --> 00:14:25.509 act or the Marine mammal protection act or the 00:14:25.509 --> 00:14:29.210 endangered species act, which The cruelty really 00:14:29.210 --> 00:14:31.710 doesn't come into play on whether or not they 00:14:31.710 --> 00:14:33.750 violated those laws. It's whether or not they're 00:14:33.750 --> 00:14:36.149 killing or trying or attempting to kill these 00:14:36.149 --> 00:14:38.730 animals that are protected. So that was another 00:14:38.730 --> 00:14:42.379 new angle for you, right? It was. Oh, yeah. Yeah, 00:14:43.019 --> 00:14:46.200 completely new laws, stuff that I'd never, to 00:14:46.200 --> 00:14:49.179 be honest, laws I didn't even know existed. Right. 00:14:50.179 --> 00:14:52.519 I think I gave you a little crash course on kind 00:14:52.519 --> 00:14:54.299 of what the elements were so you knew what to 00:14:54.299 --> 00:14:57.779 look for. You mentioned, and I forgot to mention 00:14:57.779 --> 00:14:59.799 this at the beginning, you mentioned that one 00:14:59.799 --> 00:15:01.879 of the things that you've looked at in your career 00:15:01.879 --> 00:15:04.700 at puppy mills, and you are the co -author of 00:15:04.700 --> 00:15:07.039 a book called Rescue Dogs, which kind of details 00:15:07.039 --> 00:15:10.139 some of that work in terms of infiltrating puppy 00:15:10.139 --> 00:15:13.740 mills. If anybody, it's hard to stomach some 00:15:13.740 --> 00:15:17.179 of the stories that go on with these cases. But 00:15:17.179 --> 00:15:20.779 if you want to know the insidious world of puppy 00:15:20.779 --> 00:15:24.139 mills and why you should really only adopt dogs 00:15:24.139 --> 00:15:27.379 from the pound or humane societies, definitely 00:15:27.379 --> 00:15:31.539 pick up the book, Rescue Dogs. What's the name 00:15:31.539 --> 00:15:35.899 you used to author there? Pete Paxton. And then 00:15:35.899 --> 00:15:39.960 I wrote it with an author, Gene Stone. and a 00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:43.480 ghost author, Nick Bromley. I out Nick as a ghost 00:15:43.480 --> 00:15:45.860 author every chance I get because he's amazing. 00:15:46.500 --> 00:15:48.759 It's a great book and definitely wanted to make 00:15:48.759 --> 00:15:50.779 sure people knew about it to learn more about 00:15:50.779 --> 00:15:55.019 kind of the work you have done. Okay, so what 00:15:55.019 --> 00:15:56.960 I remember about this is I kind of briefed you 00:15:56.960 --> 00:15:59.509 on what we wanted to do. You were on board. But 00:15:59.509 --> 00:16:02.230 the next thing I was like is, hey, go get a job 00:16:02.230 --> 00:16:05.710 on one of these boats. And I didn't know how 00:16:05.710 --> 00:16:08.009 to do that either. I don't think you did either. 00:16:08.190 --> 00:16:09.950 It was kind of like, go do it. No, I had no idea. 00:16:10.090 --> 00:16:15.549 And so what was new for me on that was this idea 00:16:15.549 --> 00:16:19.570 that it wasn't just show up and, hey, I'm not 00:16:19.570 --> 00:16:21.350 drunk right now. Will you take me, right? It 00:16:21.350 --> 00:16:23.750 was more like, you know, it was, it's like you 00:16:23.750 --> 00:16:26.850 had to show face, right? You had to kind of like 00:16:26.850 --> 00:16:30.330 hang out. I mean, because some of these guys 00:16:30.330 --> 00:16:33.950 literally lived on their books. Right. You know. 00:16:33.950 --> 00:16:36.129 Yeah. I mean, they were born in the frigging 00:16:36.129 --> 00:16:41.590 water, man. You know, so I had to show face enough 00:16:41.590 --> 00:16:46.230 that they were that that it showed that I was 00:16:46.230 --> 00:16:48.190 going to be there consistently. It showed that 00:16:48.190 --> 00:16:51.710 I really wanted it, but it also showed I have 00:16:51.710 --> 00:16:54.350 nothing else going on. Got it. Right. Got it. 00:16:54.409 --> 00:16:56.529 Like I'm not a cop who has something else to 00:16:56.529 --> 00:16:58.210 go back to. I'm not someone who has some good 00:16:58.210 --> 00:17:00.929 job. Like I really like, you know, I learned 00:17:00.929 --> 00:17:04.710 very quickly that what those captains want is 00:17:04.710 --> 00:17:06.789 they want someone who's going to get the job 00:17:06.789 --> 00:17:09.410 done, but also someone who cannot say no. Yeah. 00:17:09.450 --> 00:17:12.029 You have no other option. You're hungry. You're 00:17:12.029 --> 00:17:15.240 hungry. Yeah. Yeah, you're, yeah, you're hungry, 00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:18.039 you know, you know, or like, you know, you can, 00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:20.079 you can handle not having to fix while you're 00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:21.660 on the boat, but you got to get that money to 00:17:21.660 --> 00:17:23.099 get that fix when you're off the boat, you know, 00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:25.779 situation like that. So I needed to kind of appear 00:17:25.779 --> 00:17:29.000 to be that guy. Interesting. And then what I 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:33.859 learned quickly is that while I've worked with 00:17:33.859 --> 00:17:36.740 some pretty crazy, I'm going to use the word 00:17:36.740 --> 00:17:39.420 crazy and unsavory, you know, people, and, you 00:17:39.420 --> 00:17:45.420 know, there's a specific thing. with boat captains. 00:17:48.220 --> 00:17:52.160 They're normal people. Most of them are pretty 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:57.099 normal on the dock. The moment the boat is out 00:17:57.099 --> 00:17:59.940 in state waters, they lose their freaking minds. 00:18:00.180 --> 00:18:04.720 They become tyrants and it's like a switch flips. 00:18:06.149 --> 00:18:09.230 And all of a sudden, you know, man, you are just 00:18:09.230 --> 00:18:11.529 some scrub that, you know, if you, especially 00:18:11.529 --> 00:18:14.250 if you're the green horn who needs to, you know, 00:18:14.450 --> 00:18:16.609 you need to do everything that they say and they're 00:18:16.609 --> 00:18:19.410 going to give you impossible tasks just to kind 00:18:19.410 --> 00:18:22.069 of push you, just to screw with you because you 00:18:22.069 --> 00:18:25.750 can't walk away. You're on the water. Right and 00:18:25.750 --> 00:18:27.650 you're counting on that paycheck for when that 00:18:27.650 --> 00:18:29.150 when you because you know They don't get paid 00:18:29.150 --> 00:18:31.009 till they bring their fish in and then they pay 00:18:31.009 --> 00:18:34.170 the crew, right? So yeah Yeah, you've got a you 00:18:34.170 --> 00:18:36.369 got to stay on the good side of your captain 00:18:36.369 --> 00:18:39.029 for the whole time until that fish comes in and 00:18:39.029 --> 00:18:41.650 is sold and then you're paid and then if you 00:18:41.650 --> 00:18:44.910 want to walk you can walk but Up until then you 00:18:44.910 --> 00:18:48.849 know Yeah, yeah, no, and it's in and then you 00:18:48.849 --> 00:18:51.250 know It's it's all new stuff to me to how to 00:18:51.250 --> 00:18:53.730 stack net how to throw net out all of this is 00:18:53.730 --> 00:18:57.759 new But, you know, I have to, I have to learn 00:18:57.759 --> 00:19:02.079 it right away. Right. And then, you know, there'd 00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:04.059 be stuff, you know, because I started, I started 00:19:04.059 --> 00:19:06.519 getting on a few boats and there'd be something 00:19:06.519 --> 00:19:09.759 that would go wrong. Clearly in the water, clearly 00:19:09.759 --> 00:19:11.680 the net, like the net went out fine. And then 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:14.420 it got tangled up coming in and guess who's to 00:19:14.420 --> 00:19:18.339 blame me, apparently, you know, yeah, they're 00:19:18.339 --> 00:19:20.559 griping at me for hours until we set the net 00:19:20.559 --> 00:19:25.390 again. Come on. So they actually trained you, 00:19:25.450 --> 00:19:26.890 but it's kind of like they trained you under 00:19:26.890 --> 00:19:28.970 fire on how to do some of these things, right? 00:19:29.390 --> 00:19:32.690 Yeah, yeah. And it doesn't all make sense. And 00:19:32.690 --> 00:19:35.609 sometimes a captain would be drunk or, you know, 00:19:35.710 --> 00:19:38.809 one captain was, he was a pill popper, you know. 00:19:38.809 --> 00:19:42.390 And I remember everyone was nervous when he was 00:19:42.390 --> 00:19:44.769 going to, when he wanted to take a late shift 00:19:44.769 --> 00:19:46.890 at the wheel, because apparently he had almost 00:19:46.890 --> 00:19:49.130 hit a massive rock. Somewhere out there in the 00:19:49.130 --> 00:19:51.789 water one night So anytime he was taking the 00:19:51.789 --> 00:19:54.029 wheel the crew would talk about it and say one 00:19:54.029 --> 00:19:55.970 of us has to be up with him He can't be alone 00:19:55.970 --> 00:19:57.769 because he's gonna be he's gonna be stoned like 00:19:57.769 --> 00:20:00.089 I can tell he's already his eyes are glazing 00:20:00.089 --> 00:20:03.509 over he's already there, you know, and And then 00:20:03.509 --> 00:20:06.509 there was a boat there was this one boat that 00:20:06.509 --> 00:20:10.589 I was on where the situation got pretty bizarre 00:20:10.589 --> 00:20:16.119 and I was, I hadn't documented any federal violations. 00:20:16.119 --> 00:20:18.640 It was just some state stuff and, and, you know, 00:20:18.660 --> 00:20:22.259 we were, we were holding on and, and, uh, I'm 00:20:22.259 --> 00:20:24.259 with the captain and I'm with the crew member 00:20:24.259 --> 00:20:29.619 and this crew member kept telling me he kept 00:20:29.619 --> 00:20:32.319 making these statements that he would not say 00:20:32.319 --> 00:20:34.380 them as if they were jokes, but as if he was 00:20:34.380 --> 00:20:38.319 very sincerely trying to make sexually suggestive 00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:42.299 remarks to me. until they became sexually aggressive 00:20:42.299 --> 00:20:46.299 remarks. And he was telling me that he had all 00:20:46.299 --> 00:20:48.400 these tattoos and he said that they were Mexican 00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:52.180 prison tattoos and that he learned to love men 00:20:52.180 --> 00:20:55.059 in prison. And then he said that there was a 00:20:55.059 --> 00:20:57.619 guy on the boat who didn't like what he was doing 00:20:57.619 --> 00:20:59.799 to him at first, but once he made the guy, the 00:20:59.799 --> 00:21:02.720 guy liked it. And so I said, hey man, you stay 00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:05.240 the hell away from me. And then he said to me 00:21:05.240 --> 00:21:10.400 one day, he goes, He goes, Hey Pete, we're just 00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:12.259 standing there bait. We're just, we're just baiting 00:21:12.259 --> 00:21:14.079 hooks, man. We're just standing there baiting 00:21:14.079 --> 00:21:16.700 hooks. And he goes, Hey Pete, when you die, what 00:21:16.700 --> 00:21:20.220 happens? Oh no. And I go, what the hell does 00:21:20.220 --> 00:21:22.180 that mean? And he goes, when you die, what happens? 00:21:22.299 --> 00:21:23.420 Like, I don't know. What are you talking about? 00:21:23.420 --> 00:21:25.920 He goes, the worms eat you. Right. And I go, 00:21:26.539 --> 00:21:29.019 yeah, so. And he goes, well, if you let the worms 00:21:29.019 --> 00:21:33.019 eat you, why not let me? Oh my God. And I said, 00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:35.220 Hey man, listen, you stay the hell away from 00:21:35.220 --> 00:21:38.150 me and only just do your job on this boat. And 00:21:38.150 --> 00:21:42.130 so that was, we were going to go out, we were 00:21:42.130 --> 00:21:46.089 going to go out the next day. And I remember 00:21:46.089 --> 00:21:48.569 I had this feeling, you know, I'll never know 00:21:48.569 --> 00:21:50.009 if it was the right call or not. Right. But I 00:21:50.009 --> 00:21:52.250 had this feeling like something, something's 00:21:52.250 --> 00:21:54.009 going to go down. And if it's going to go down, 00:21:54.349 --> 00:21:59.809 I don't want you or, uh, I know we're also, uh, 00:22:00.579 --> 00:22:03.579 we were working under Aaron Dean, right? Yep. 00:22:03.779 --> 00:22:06.859 Aaron was the boss. Yep. Aaron's incredible. 00:22:07.420 --> 00:22:10.359 And I was like, I don't want you or Aaron to 00:22:10.359 --> 00:22:13.599 think that, you know, I'm creating some kind 00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:15.200 of a problem. So I thought here's what I'm going 00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:16.500 to do. I'm going to call Ed and I'm going to 00:22:16.500 --> 00:22:20.339 tell you, look, I got a situation. I got this, 00:22:20.599 --> 00:22:22.869 but if something goes, Now I want you to know 00:22:22.869 --> 00:22:25.470 in advance, I'm kind of anticipating it. I'm 00:22:25.470 --> 00:22:27.130 not going to like make anything happen, but I'm 00:22:27.130 --> 00:22:28.910 going to deal with it. Right. Just letting you 00:22:28.910 --> 00:22:30.730 know. And you're like, okay, I trust you. I got 00:22:30.730 --> 00:22:34.789 it. And I was asleep, getting ready to get up, 00:22:34.930 --> 00:22:36.730 had to get up in like a few hours, get on the 00:22:36.730 --> 00:22:38.990 boat. And it was like 3 a .m. I get a call from 00:22:38.990 --> 00:22:41.750 Aaron. She goes, Pete. I can't sleep. I'm pulling 00:22:41.750 --> 00:22:48.150 you off that boat. That boat was done. Yep. You 00:22:48.150 --> 00:22:50.730 know, uh, and that's worth a little bit of an 00:22:50.730 --> 00:22:55.019 explanation because Part of the reason that this 00:22:55.019 --> 00:22:58.180 idea came to me was years earlier, we had had 00:22:58.180 --> 00:23:00.440 a situation where sea otters were getting killed 00:23:00.440 --> 00:23:04.019 in Monterey Bay. And everybody believed it was 00:23:04.019 --> 00:23:06.779 the squid fleet, the squid fishery, which is 00:23:06.779 --> 00:23:09.440 a fleet of boats that specifically focuses on 00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:12.460 anchovies or squid using purse sanding nets. 00:23:14.200 --> 00:23:17.880 And so I started a little bit of what you did. 00:23:18.019 --> 00:23:22.029 I got myself on a boat undercover. But the cover 00:23:22.029 --> 00:23:24.609 was not great, and it was temporary. It wasn't 00:23:24.609 --> 00:23:27.809 where I was working for the boat. I was an observer 00:23:27.809 --> 00:23:31.210 along. And because of that setup, as an observer, 00:23:31.210 --> 00:23:32.869 they weren't going to do anything illegal in 00:23:32.869 --> 00:23:35.369 front of me. But it did give us a lot of intel 00:23:35.369 --> 00:23:37.329 about how they operated. And one of the things 00:23:37.329 --> 00:23:40.049 I discovered about how they operated was, number 00:23:40.049 --> 00:23:43.609 one, there's a lot of guns on those boats. I 00:23:43.609 --> 00:23:46.009 saw a lot of guns, and there were a lot of sharp 00:23:46.009 --> 00:23:49.490 edged weapons, knives and stuff. But I also saw, 00:23:49.509 --> 00:23:53.309 like you did, These are not boats that go out 00:23:53.309 --> 00:23:55.029 for the day to fish and come back. Sometimes 00:23:55.029 --> 00:23:57.210 they do, but sometimes they go out multiple days 00:23:57.210 --> 00:24:00.130 at a time, or they specifically go out at night. 00:24:00.970 --> 00:24:04.630 And to stay awake, a lot of the captains and 00:24:04.630 --> 00:24:08.670 crew will use controlled substances. Methamphetamine 00:24:08.670 --> 00:24:12.220 was one thing that I saw. available on those 00:24:12.220 --> 00:24:15.079 boats. And in fact, yeah, that was so common. 00:24:15.099 --> 00:24:17.400 Yeah, that they would call them tweaker boats, 00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:19.980 tweaker boats. Exactly. And there was some there, 00:24:20.099 --> 00:24:22.500 you know, I had debriefed with or briefed prior 00:24:22.500 --> 00:24:25.119 to my work on this with the US Coast Guard, and 00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:27.299 they had said they'd been looking at the squid 00:24:27.299 --> 00:24:30.539 fleet for drug trafficking issues, along with 00:24:30.539 --> 00:24:33.220 some drug trafficking between them. And of all 00:24:33.220 --> 00:24:36.180 things, the hell's angels of California. So we, 00:24:36.299 --> 00:24:40.059 you know, we we were very aware that there were 00:24:40.059 --> 00:24:42.170 some risky people on this boat. And I remember 00:24:42.170 --> 00:24:46.089 Aaron and I had a long conversation the day before 00:24:46.089 --> 00:24:49.150 we pulled you off that boat. And we were kind 00:24:49.150 --> 00:24:53.630 of torn. Do we let him go out on this boat 10, 00:24:53.690 --> 00:24:57.170 20, 30 miles offshore in water that's cold enough 00:24:57.170 --> 00:24:58.910 that if somebody threw you overboard, you'd be 00:24:58.910 --> 00:25:03.160 dead before anybody could find you. Yeah, we 00:25:03.160 --> 00:25:05.339 and I think I think Aaron and I were in agreement 00:25:05.339 --> 00:25:07.440 We had to pull you off that boat even though 00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:11.000 it was such an amazing in to have you on a boat 00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:14.619 We couldn't have We couldn't have one of our 00:25:14.619 --> 00:25:16.680 confidential informants out there with a guy 00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:18.660 who's threatening to kill them and rape them 00:25:18.660 --> 00:25:22.519 and whatever. I appreciate you looking out for 00:25:22.519 --> 00:25:26.019 me, man. Thanks for making sure I didn't get 00:25:26.019 --> 00:25:28.180 raped and murdered out on the ocean. I never 00:25:28.180 --> 00:25:31.440 told you thank you. No, you didn't have to. But 00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:34.980 it was an eye -opener for Aaron and I even to 00:25:34.980 --> 00:25:37.079 just hear your stories about what was going on 00:25:37.079 --> 00:25:38.519 on those boats while you're out there. I mean, 00:25:38.859 --> 00:25:41.420 incredible. It takes incredible bravery to be 00:25:41.420 --> 00:25:43.660 out there by yourself. of doing that work. So 00:25:43.660 --> 00:25:45.779 good for you for, you know, that was the other 00:25:45.779 --> 00:25:47.640 thing. You were an awesome informant because 00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:50.599 you kept, you briefed me just about every day 00:25:50.599 --> 00:25:52.279 you went out. You would call me and say, here's 00:25:52.279 --> 00:25:54.180 what happened today. Here's what I'm seeing. 00:25:55.059 --> 00:25:57.740 Down to very minute detail about here's how these 00:25:57.740 --> 00:26:00.259 guys are interacting with me, right? Which was 00:26:00.259 --> 00:26:02.880 very important for me to monitor your safety 00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:06.160 and Aaron too. So yeah, that's what made you 00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:09.769 such a great informant. So. So yeah, so you just 00:26:09.769 --> 00:26:11.869 told the story in a nutshell. You did an awesome 00:26:11.869 --> 00:26:14.210 job. You get into that fishing community. You 00:26:14.210 --> 00:26:16.329 get ingratiated with these guys. You actually 00:26:16.329 --> 00:26:19.309 get hired on not one, but a couple boats, and 00:26:19.309 --> 00:26:21.369 kind of jumped around a little bit looking for 00:26:21.369 --> 00:26:25.569 the most likely violator. And then we finally 00:26:25.569 --> 00:26:28.769 find that boat, and you get threatened in a scary 00:26:28.769 --> 00:26:31.650 situation. So we have to pull you. And that was 00:26:31.650 --> 00:26:34.750 like, we never got any federal charges, federal 00:26:34.750 --> 00:26:37.980 wildlife charges, off of that time, right? Yep. 00:26:38.539 --> 00:26:42.759 Nothing. So years later. Yeah, years later. So 00:26:42.759 --> 00:26:45.660 yeah, so the next thing is we stay in touch and 00:26:45.660 --> 00:26:48.099 we're looking for another thing for you to do, 00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:52.519 right? But 2015 rolls around. I get assigned 00:26:52.519 --> 00:26:54.779 to go to Africa for five years, so I'm kind of 00:26:54.779 --> 00:26:57.619 out of the picture. So yeah, Phyllis, you went 00:26:57.619 --> 00:27:01.339 back. You figured out a way to go back at these 00:27:01.339 --> 00:27:05.849 boats. How did that all come about? Basically, 00:27:06.150 --> 00:27:11.269 what happened was I was working at that time 00:27:11.269 --> 00:27:15.410 for a group called Mercy for Animals. And I was 00:27:15.410 --> 00:27:18.069 the director of international investigations. 00:27:18.109 --> 00:27:22.829 So they had me going to Mexico and India and 00:27:22.829 --> 00:27:25.769 Brazil. And I was training people and doing a 00:27:25.769 --> 00:27:28.029 lot of field work and all this. But I was doing 00:27:28.029 --> 00:27:31.150 nothing domestic. And I had some time on my hands. 00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:37.700 Like so many of my cases, cause I'm just a civilian. 00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:39.880 I work for NGOs, you know, my girlfriend and 00:27:39.880 --> 00:27:43.299 I have our own NGO. Like I was just like, I'm 00:27:43.299 --> 00:27:44.700 just going to pull something together. I just 00:27:44.700 --> 00:27:46.180 want to do something. Like I'm here in, like 00:27:46.180 --> 00:27:50.240 I'm in California. Aaron is right over there, 00:27:50.240 --> 00:27:52.960 right? Like I could do something. And so I thought, 00:27:53.019 --> 00:27:55.720 you know what? Like that case, that fishing case 00:27:55.720 --> 00:27:59.460 never came out. And so what I did was I, uh, 00:27:59.460 --> 00:28:01.700 I started looking at all the different kinds 00:28:01.700 --> 00:28:06.380 of fisheries there are. And I honed in on the 00:28:06.380 --> 00:28:10.339 drift gill net fishery because I thought they 00:28:10.339 --> 00:28:12.279 are, it was this perfect combination of things. 00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:14.759 That fishery had been banned in Washington and 00:28:14.759 --> 00:28:16.940 Oregon. They'd been trying for years to ban it 00:28:16.940 --> 00:28:18.740 in California, but the legislation had never 00:28:18.740 --> 00:28:25.720 gone through. And the bycatch is cute animals. 00:28:25.740 --> 00:28:28.579 And that's critical because drift gill nets, 00:28:28.890 --> 00:28:32.130 For anyone who doesn't know, they're mile -long 00:28:32.130 --> 00:28:35.369 nets that have the nickname Walls of Death that 00:28:35.369 --> 00:28:38.630 go out in the water, and they're submerged. And 00:28:38.630 --> 00:28:41.170 out there in California, they were targeting 00:28:41.170 --> 00:28:44.690 swordfish, thresher sharks, and mako sharks. 00:28:45.849 --> 00:28:48.549 And swordfish, it's not like they're the cutest 00:28:48.549 --> 00:28:50.710 thing. Thresher sharks, yeah, they're kind of 00:28:50.710 --> 00:28:52.329 cute. They got stubby noses, but they're sharks. 00:28:52.569 --> 00:28:56.490 Makos? Oh, listen. Okay, I'm an animal activist. 00:28:56.569 --> 00:29:00.099 I love all animals, Ed. Makos are fucking terrifying. 00:29:00.220 --> 00:29:02.279 Have you ever seen a Mako? It's like they have 00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:06.279 chainsaws for mouths, man. It's horrifying. Exactly. 00:29:06.700 --> 00:29:09.940 They're like great white sharks in a cheetah's 00:29:09.940 --> 00:29:12.480 body. They go so freaking fast and they have, 00:29:12.920 --> 00:29:15.119 like you said, a mouthful of razor sharp teeth 00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:17.859 that kind of juts out in all different directions. 00:29:18.740 --> 00:29:21.900 Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's like teeth that face 00:29:21.900 --> 00:29:25.460 forward. It's terrible. And so I was like, OK, 00:29:25.700 --> 00:29:27.819 no one's going to go for that. But the bycatch. 00:29:27.960 --> 00:29:31.180 that was associated with them was dolphins and 00:29:31.180 --> 00:29:33.940 sea lions. And I thought, okay, here's what I'm 00:29:33.940 --> 00:29:36.559 gonna do. I'm gonna use the experience that I 00:29:36.559 --> 00:29:40.599 had. And I have like, you know, I have a lot 00:29:40.599 --> 00:29:44.140 of experience working on the boats and I know 00:29:44.140 --> 00:29:47.099 how to talk to these fishermen. And I started 00:29:47.099 --> 00:29:49.660 hitting the docks and I think I started hitting 00:29:49.660 --> 00:29:54.190 the docks in 2016. This was like, It took me 00:29:54.190 --> 00:29:56.990 months. It took me over four months of just showing 00:29:56.990 --> 00:29:59.130 up and I would tell people, Hey man, I'm kind 00:29:59.130 --> 00:30:02.250 of putting together a video project. Um, you 00:30:02.250 --> 00:30:05.289 know, can you let me film you? Listen, I used 00:30:05.289 --> 00:30:07.109 to be a commercial fisherman, man. I don't know 00:30:07.109 --> 00:30:08.609 what to film and what not to film. I've worked 00:30:08.609 --> 00:30:10.250 on that boat. I've worked on that boat. I've 00:30:10.250 --> 00:30:12.650 worked on that boat. Perfect. And then I would 00:30:12.650 --> 00:30:16.089 show up with a big camera and I would just talk 00:30:16.089 --> 00:30:18.329 to people would just always see me around. And 00:30:18.329 --> 00:30:20.569 then I started getting onto non targets. We're 00:30:20.569 --> 00:30:23.019 like, The fishery wasn't even happening for those 00:30:23.019 --> 00:30:25.519 targets, but people would see me go out on the 00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:27.640 water, hanging off the front of the boat, off 00:30:27.640 --> 00:30:29.819 the bow, holding the camera up like, oh, he's 00:30:29.819 --> 00:30:32.839 really doing it. He's a real deal. Yeah. And 00:30:32.839 --> 00:30:35.420 then it took, like I said, it took almost half 00:30:35.420 --> 00:30:38.339 a year, but then boom, this, this drift gill 00:30:38.339 --> 00:30:41.119 net boat called the Albatro took me out on the 00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:45.740 water. And I went out on the Albatro and I went 00:30:45.740 --> 00:30:50.000 out on another boat called the Margretto and 00:30:51.430 --> 00:30:55.509 every single run that we did dead sea lions and 00:30:55.509 --> 00:30:58.529 dead dolphins came up. There was not any trip 00:30:58.529 --> 00:31:00.369 where they made sets, where there wasn't multiple 00:31:00.369 --> 00:31:04.470 dead marine mammals that came up. And Mercy for 00:31:04.470 --> 00:31:07.009 Animals at the time, it was not part of their 00:31:07.009 --> 00:31:10.470 mission statement to deal with that. And, you 00:31:10.470 --> 00:31:12.789 know, their donors weren't paying them for that. 00:31:12.950 --> 00:31:15.630 It's part of the thing with NGOs, right? It's 00:31:15.630 --> 00:31:17.329 called mission creep, right? You're like, I'm 00:31:17.329 --> 00:31:19.009 going to go do something outside of what I'm 00:31:19.009 --> 00:31:20.809 supposed to be doing. It's like, well, if people 00:31:20.809 --> 00:31:22.410 aren't donating money to you for that, you got 00:31:22.410 --> 00:31:24.670 to honor that. So they weren't sure if they wanted 00:31:24.670 --> 00:31:28.930 to do that case. And then that first shot I got 00:31:28.930 --> 00:31:31.650 of a dead dolphin coming up in the net, the executive 00:31:31.650 --> 00:31:33.750 director looked at that and said, we're taking 00:31:33.750 --> 00:31:35.789 this we're doing it because these animals are 00:31:35.789 --> 00:31:39.069 drowning that's it that i mean they get stuck 00:31:39.069 --> 00:31:41.029 in these nets and they're air breathers so they 00:31:41.029 --> 00:31:44.650 drown that's a horrible way to go yeah yeah there 00:31:44.650 --> 00:31:47.809 was even one that was taking uh their final breath 00:31:47.809 --> 00:31:52.009 man ed there was a dead baby dolphin that came 00:31:52.009 --> 00:31:57.950 oh it was it was rough man and um and so what 00:31:57.950 --> 00:32:03.710 i would do is uh i had like i would overtly film 00:32:03.710 --> 00:32:07.630 everything. And then I would covertly film the 00:32:07.630 --> 00:32:12.430 violations, right? And at one point, I saw and 00:32:12.430 --> 00:32:15.910 I even set up some GoPros. And at one point, 00:32:16.069 --> 00:32:19.509 this one dolphin came up. And they're like, Oh, 00:32:19.509 --> 00:32:22.130 man, oh, man. And then this is something else. 00:32:22.130 --> 00:32:24.210 This is something that happens with undercover 00:32:24.210 --> 00:32:27.329 work. And anyone who's done UC stuff, you know 00:32:27.329 --> 00:32:30.309 this, if you haven't, this is not going to make 00:32:30.309 --> 00:32:33.509 a lot of sense. But this constantly happens to 00:32:33.509 --> 00:32:36.049 me. I start talking to someone and I'm like, 00:32:36.089 --> 00:32:38.029 hey, I'm in on this, let's do this. I'm like, 00:32:38.049 --> 00:32:40.089 all right, new guy, absolutely. And it's kind 00:32:40.089 --> 00:32:41.750 of like they want to brag, right? Feeds their 00:32:41.750 --> 00:32:43.450 ego that like, you're going to see them do their 00:32:43.450 --> 00:32:47.089 thing. And then the first violation happens. 00:32:47.109 --> 00:32:50.210 The first time that a dead dolphin comes up in 00:32:50.210 --> 00:32:51.630 the net, the first time that they're beating 00:32:51.630 --> 00:32:53.910 a downed cow or whatever the case is. And all 00:32:53.910 --> 00:32:57.049 of a sudden they remember, oh wait, I don't know 00:32:57.049 --> 00:32:59.309 you. Right. Right. And that's when they sweat 00:32:59.309 --> 00:33:01.450 you down. And so that's when it was like, it 00:33:01.450 --> 00:33:03.349 was, it was on the Albatross and the Margotto. 00:33:03.430 --> 00:33:05.390 It was that first time, man. That's when they 00:33:05.390 --> 00:33:07.730 start saying, this is what they would say. You 00:33:07.730 --> 00:33:09.970 a cop? No, I'm not a cop. You better not be a 00:33:09.970 --> 00:33:12.650 cop. Cause if you are, you're going in the water, 00:33:12.809 --> 00:33:17.150 which to explain that mindset, their thought 00:33:17.150 --> 00:33:21.369 process was this. I think you're a cop. So I'm 00:33:21.369 --> 00:33:25.869 going to threaten to kill you, right? And so 00:33:25.869 --> 00:33:28.029 I'm like, I'm not a cop, I'm not a cop. And they're 00:33:28.029 --> 00:33:30.289 like, oh, the GoPro, the GoPro. And I'm like, 00:33:30.349 --> 00:33:34.170 oh, right, I forgot. And so I reach up and I 00:33:34.170 --> 00:33:38.069 grab the GoPro and they're all freaking out facing 00:33:38.069 --> 00:33:41.230 the dolphin because they realize, wait, he actually 00:33:41.230 --> 00:33:42.710 just saw this, even though they knew this was 00:33:42.710 --> 00:33:47.250 going to happen. And I was thinking, like, I 00:33:47.250 --> 00:33:50.619 know I got this on the UC cam. But man, what 00:33:50.619 --> 00:33:54.779 a shot that the GoPro's getting. So I walk around, 00:33:55.640 --> 00:33:58.640 the net comes off a giant spool on the boat, 00:33:59.019 --> 00:34:01.599 and I walk around it. I open up the back of the 00:34:01.599 --> 00:34:04.059 GoPro, pull the memory card out, put a blank 00:34:04.059 --> 00:34:07.170 one in. throw the memory card in my vest, close 00:34:07.170 --> 00:34:09.769 it. And then I come around and the captain's 00:34:09.769 --> 00:34:11.510 son is walking around and falling. What are you 00:34:11.510 --> 00:34:12.809 doing, Pete? What are you doing? I'm like, look, 00:34:13.070 --> 00:34:14.710 I'm just erasing the footage. I'm just making 00:34:14.710 --> 00:34:18.389 sure it's erased. So that was it. I was solid 00:34:18.389 --> 00:34:20.449 after that. Yeah. Well, then they know you're 00:34:20.449 --> 00:34:22.829 in on it, right? And you're willing to do it. 00:34:23.090 --> 00:34:25.210 You know, that's very interesting comment because 00:34:25.210 --> 00:34:29.429 I've always told like newer agents when I would 00:34:29.429 --> 00:34:33.019 train new agents who came on. Every undercover 00:34:33.019 --> 00:34:35.780 case I ever did, from the first one to the last 00:34:35.780 --> 00:34:38.059 one, I was always quizzed about whether or not 00:34:38.059 --> 00:34:41.179 I was a cop. And I think sometimes people get 00:34:41.179 --> 00:34:44.119 so scared and worried, undercover agents get 00:34:44.119 --> 00:34:47.360 scared and worried, that they're burned. Just 00:34:47.360 --> 00:34:51.079 because somebody asks you, you are. Anybody committing 00:34:51.079 --> 00:34:52.880 a crime, like you said, they're going to be like, 00:34:52.880 --> 00:34:55.679 ooh, who's around me? Do I know this guy? If 00:34:55.679 --> 00:34:57.980 not, I better double check and reassure myself 00:34:57.980 --> 00:35:00.659 that they're not law enforcement. you're always 00:35:00.659 --> 00:35:03.179 going to get questioned. If you don't get questioned, 00:35:03.519 --> 00:35:05.599 you're probably not onto anybody that's doing 00:35:05.599 --> 00:35:09.400 anything illegal. That's 100 % accurate. It's 00:35:09.400 --> 00:35:14.119 something that it doesn't, you wouldn't think 00:35:14.119 --> 00:35:16.199 that's the case until you experience it. You 00:35:16.199 --> 00:35:17.880 would think that because they're questioning 00:35:17.880 --> 00:35:20.199 me, I did something suspicious or something happened. 00:35:20.199 --> 00:35:23.800 Exactly. Right. But yeah, you wouldn't, you wouldn't 00:35:23.800 --> 00:35:25.980 think that like, wait a minute, you just committed 00:35:25.980 --> 00:35:29.380 a slew of crimes in front of me. Now you're asking 00:35:29.380 --> 00:35:33.860 me. In fact, I just had a case It was a different 00:35:33.860 --> 00:35:37.119 case just just a few years ago and the and these 00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:40.780 two guys were specifically saying to me they 00:35:40.780 --> 00:35:44.679 thought I was with the They had gotten burned 00:35:44.679 --> 00:35:47.099 by the USDA and they're like how could the USDA 00:35:47.099 --> 00:35:49.239 know and it was a total coincidence So like well, 00:35:49.340 --> 00:35:51.480 maybe it's the new guy and not only did they 00:35:51.480 --> 00:35:54.820 say are you with the USDA? They said are you 00:35:54.820 --> 00:35:58.059 wearing a wire? What the hell? And, and they're 00:35:58.059 --> 00:36:00.079 like, and then one of them goes, cause if you 00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:04.019 are, we're going to kill you. So they just asked 00:36:04.019 --> 00:36:06.079 me if I'm recording the conversation in which 00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:07.800 they said they would kill me if I'm recording 00:36:07.800 --> 00:36:10.380 it. So people do stuff that doesn't make sense. 00:36:10.900 --> 00:36:13.639 No, no. And this is, you know, this is one of 00:36:13.639 --> 00:36:16.300 those situations where going back to the boat, 00:36:16.880 --> 00:36:19.820 just to reiterate with, with listeners, how dangerous 00:36:19.820 --> 00:36:22.019 that situation is, you know, they threatened 00:36:22.019 --> 00:36:24.159 you said, if you're your cop, you're going overboard, 00:36:24.940 --> 00:36:27.320 but, but Yeah, it was dumb of them to say that 00:36:27.320 --> 00:36:29.679 because if you are a cop, presumably, you're 00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:32.219 either going to testify later or something's 00:36:32.219 --> 00:36:36.260 getting recorded. But the reality of the situation 00:36:36.260 --> 00:36:40.900 is even if you were a cop and they were suspicious 00:36:40.900 --> 00:36:43.420 of you or they found your recording device or 00:36:43.420 --> 00:36:45.179 whatever, they caught you switching out that 00:36:45.179 --> 00:36:48.380 SD card and they beat the crap out of you and 00:36:48.380 --> 00:36:51.409 throw you overboard. All they have to say is, 00:36:51.590 --> 00:36:55.309 yeah, he got hit. But the net boom was swinging. 00:36:55.369 --> 00:36:57.369 And he got hit. And he fell over. And we looked 00:36:57.369 --> 00:37:00.429 for him. We couldn't find him. Because literally, 00:37:00.670 --> 00:37:03.309 in the Water's Office of California, you're going 00:37:03.309 --> 00:37:05.809 to live, unless you have a Mustang suit on, you're 00:37:05.809 --> 00:37:09.289 going to live about 20 minutes max. And then 00:37:09.289 --> 00:37:11.309 you're going to go into hypothermia. And you're 00:37:11.309 --> 00:37:14.369 going to dry and drown. So they could easily 00:37:14.369 --> 00:37:16.849 dump you overboard, leave you. And there would 00:37:16.849 --> 00:37:18.690 not be enough evidence to prove that they murdered 00:37:18.690 --> 00:37:22.000 you. They could just say, he got hit by a boom. 00:37:22.119 --> 00:37:23.699 We looked for him. He fell overboard. It happens 00:37:23.699 --> 00:37:26.659 all the time. Legitimately, it happens. Fishermen 00:37:26.659 --> 00:37:29.900 die all the time. So it is a very dangerous situation 00:37:29.900 --> 00:37:33.400 that you were in. So this is very cool. So now 00:37:33.400 --> 00:37:35.699 you're on these two boats. You're actually documenting 00:37:35.699 --> 00:37:37.940 violations. You're actually getting their reactions 00:37:37.940 --> 00:37:42.480 too, which shows knowledge that they know they're 00:37:42.480 --> 00:37:45.420 breaking the law. Don't put this on your. camera 00:37:45.420 --> 00:37:48.039 kind of stuff. What, how did, how did that develop 00:37:48.039 --> 00:37:52.000 then? What happened after that? So, I was giving 00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:54.179 all of the evidence. I was in touch with Erin, 00:37:54.420 --> 00:37:56.400 you know, letting her know, you know, I wasn't 00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:59.059 signed on as a CI. So it wasn't like the old 00:37:59.059 --> 00:38:01.780 days, you know, but, but I was in touch and letting 00:38:01.780 --> 00:38:03.880 her know, hey, this is what I'm doing. And then 00:38:03.880 --> 00:38:06.820 she got me in touch with the U S attorney's office 00:38:06.820 --> 00:38:12.400 and Noah. And so, yeah, once we went to NOAA, 00:38:12.599 --> 00:38:14.179 because, you know, it was marine mammal violations 00:38:14.179 --> 00:38:16.980 and they were going to handle that. Basically, 00:38:17.079 --> 00:38:18.639 it was, you know, they waited for all the evidence 00:38:18.639 --> 00:38:21.940 to come together. And then, you know, we said, 00:38:22.099 --> 00:38:24.619 look, you know, we're what our ultimate goal 00:38:24.619 --> 00:38:29.739 with this is to go to the press and use this 00:38:29.739 --> 00:38:32.679 to help pass legislation that will ban this fishery 00:38:32.679 --> 00:38:34.980 from California. You won't be able to own these 00:38:34.980 --> 00:38:37.360 nets. you know, in, in state waters. That was, 00:38:37.360 --> 00:38:39.340 that was the goal of the NGO you were working 00:38:39.340 --> 00:38:41.360 for. Yeah. That was the goal of the NGO. Yeah. 00:38:41.360 --> 00:38:43.059 And there were a variety of NGOs that had been 00:38:43.059 --> 00:38:45.159 working on that. And so, but you know, no one 00:38:45.159 --> 00:38:49.659 had, no one had evidence of this, you know, actual 00:38:49.659 --> 00:38:52.139 footage of the sea mammals coming up dead, which 00:38:52.139 --> 00:38:54.519 by the way, I guess what I should say real quick 00:38:54.519 --> 00:38:56.980 is that the reason it's a violation, which I 00:38:56.980 --> 00:38:59.360 didn't know this until I started doing work for 00:38:59.360 --> 00:39:02.880 you is that perfectly legal to have a dolphin 00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:04.920 come up dead in your net. perfectly legal. It's 00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:09.340 that you have to report it. Exactly. And I feel 00:39:09.340 --> 00:39:12.340 after all of this time on those boats, hanging 00:39:12.340 --> 00:39:14.400 out at the docks, talking to all these captains, 00:39:14.460 --> 00:39:17.519 working undercover on the boats, I feel very 00:39:17.519 --> 00:39:21.659 comfortable saying virtually no one reports their 00:39:21.659 --> 00:39:24.940 bycatch. Right. You know, what you see on these 00:39:24.940 --> 00:39:29.480 fishing shows is someone aware that the camera 00:39:29.480 --> 00:39:31.460 is there and they're putting on an act. You bet. 00:39:32.350 --> 00:39:35.929 Yeah. Um, and so, you know, I, I was filming 00:39:35.929 --> 00:39:38.449 the violations, then taking pictures of their, 00:39:38.449 --> 00:39:40.429 of their fishing records, showing that they are 00:39:40.429 --> 00:39:44.570 reporting nothing. And so, uh, the U S attorney's 00:39:44.570 --> 00:39:47.610 office got with, with, uh, with Noah and Aaron 00:39:47.610 --> 00:39:51.610 to, to pull that together to work on, on finding 00:39:51.610 --> 00:39:55.530 the captains. But that case came out, the footage 00:39:55.530 --> 00:40:00.070 came out and was released in 2018 and boom. that 00:40:00.070 --> 00:40:03.789 legislation passed in California and the fishery 00:40:03.789 --> 00:40:07.409 is now banned. There are no drift gill nets in 00:40:07.409 --> 00:40:12.030 California. Awesome. Cause I mean, that is awesome 00:40:12.030 --> 00:40:15.829 because it's there, you know, there's people 00:40:15.829 --> 00:40:17.969 out there that are arguing, we've been in the 00:40:17.969 --> 00:40:20.329 fishing business for generations and we did, 00:40:20.670 --> 00:40:23.130 we need to be able to keep fishing like this. 00:40:23.409 --> 00:40:29.000 No, actually not because If you've been for generations 00:40:29.000 --> 00:40:33.260 doing massive damage to protected animals, marine 00:40:33.260 --> 00:40:37.179 mammals, seals, sea lions, dolphins, whales, 00:40:37.280 --> 00:40:39.260 they're all protected by the Marine Mammal Protection 00:40:39.260 --> 00:40:41.980 Act, some of them by the Endangered Species Act. 00:40:44.019 --> 00:40:47.000 You don't get to continue your family business 00:40:47.000 --> 00:40:49.940 and wipe out species in the process of doing 00:40:49.940 --> 00:40:54.159 it. That's just not part of the plan. Yeah, a 00:40:54.159 --> 00:40:56.519 hundred percent. There's um, there's a conversation 00:40:56.519 --> 00:40:59.500 that I had with several captains and it was it 00:40:59.500 --> 00:41:02.760 was a very it's as strange as the conversation 00:41:02.760 --> 00:41:05.219 that's like wait a minute, you're a cop I'm gonna 00:41:05.219 --> 00:41:08.239 kill you. It's the conversation would be this 00:41:08.239 --> 00:41:11.659 they would say all these stupid regulations You 00:41:11.659 --> 00:41:13.940 know, there's no point in why do we have to have 00:41:13.940 --> 00:41:15.860 regulations? They're gonna give us quotas. That's 00:41:15.860 --> 00:41:18.099 just dumb I mean, I do have to say the lot of 00:41:18.099 --> 00:41:21.150 the fish have disappeared we over fished them. 00:41:21.369 --> 00:41:23.449 And so I understand why they have the regulations, 00:41:23.590 --> 00:41:25.349 but there's no point to regulations. I mean, 00:41:25.449 --> 00:41:30.530 it's like, I wish I had all of those conversations 00:41:30.530 --> 00:41:34.710 on tape because the mental, the mental gymnastics 00:41:34.710 --> 00:41:37.289 that they would do within two minutes of discussing 00:41:37.289 --> 00:41:41.769 it was just, it was, it made no sense. Yeah. 00:41:42.389 --> 00:41:45.389 I've heard it myself before many times and that, 00:41:45.389 --> 00:41:47.829 you know, often they'll they'll will blame other 00:41:47.829 --> 00:41:49.610 fishermen or other, you know, but it's never 00:41:49.610 --> 00:41:52.590 them. Right? Right. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's always 00:41:52.590 --> 00:41:54.969 someone else. It's never them. Exactly. And then 00:41:54.969 --> 00:41:57.670 they'll go out and then dead animals, dead dolphins 00:41:57.670 --> 00:42:01.110 coming up in the net. Yeah. And again, you know, 00:42:01.190 --> 00:42:03.750 just so listeners understand to remind them, 00:42:03.849 --> 00:42:05.449 when you first describe this, you're talking 00:42:05.449 --> 00:42:08.670 about nets that go out behind just a single boat 00:42:08.670 --> 00:42:13.130 for miles. And they're potentially, it's not 00:42:13.130 --> 00:42:15.659 just one dolphin. You know, we're talking about, 00:42:16.019 --> 00:42:18.099 if you aggregate all the boats, you're talking 00:42:18.099 --> 00:42:21.059 about many, many, probably hundreds of miles 00:42:21.059 --> 00:42:24.360 of net out there killing who knows how many. 00:42:24.440 --> 00:42:26.239 And if you're not reporting it, we don't know 00:42:26.239 --> 00:42:28.579 how many you're killing, right? It might be way 00:42:28.579 --> 00:42:32.920 more than the population can support. Absolutely. 00:42:33.500 --> 00:42:35.800 Yeah. No, I mean, that's, yeah. It's like this, 00:42:35.980 --> 00:42:39.639 you know, it's not a coincidence. that it just 00:42:39.639 --> 00:42:42.679 so happens that the two boats that I was on, 00:42:42.920 --> 00:42:46.260 that every trip on those boats, I saw dead dolphins 00:42:46.260 --> 00:42:48.480 and multiple dead dolphins, multiple dead sea 00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:50.800 lions on every trip. It's not like it's isolated 00:42:50.800 --> 00:42:53.860 to that. And they would tell me about, they told 00:42:53.860 --> 00:42:56.860 me about a great white shark, they got tangled 00:42:56.860 --> 00:42:59.780 up in the net and was dead. They told me about 00:42:59.780 --> 00:43:02.039 a whale, a pilot, and they've told me about all 00:43:02.039 --> 00:43:05.980 that stuff. And I photographed their catch vlogs, 00:43:06.280 --> 00:43:09.639 nothing about that whatsoever. Right. And great 00:43:09.639 --> 00:43:11.840 white sharks are a state protected species under 00:43:11.840 --> 00:43:14.980 California law. So that's also a concern. Really 00:43:14.980 --> 00:43:18.039 cool. So you were able to, this is really neat 00:43:18.039 --> 00:43:21.619 because you combined the world of what you were 00:43:21.619 --> 00:43:23.920 doing with the NGO, the animal protection, animal 00:43:23.920 --> 00:43:28.980 rights, animal cruelty issues, with conservation 00:43:28.980 --> 00:43:32.340 as well, right? The conservation law enforcement 00:43:32.340 --> 00:43:35.500 agency's interest in protecting species as a 00:43:35.500 --> 00:43:38.469 whole, right? Um, did the U S attorney charge 00:43:38.469 --> 00:43:40.929 those captains as a result of your case? Yeah. 00:43:41.010 --> 00:43:45.710 Um, so what happened with that was, uh, there 00:43:45.710 --> 00:43:47.730 was two boats of the Albatross and the Margarito 00:43:47.730 --> 00:43:50.389 and the Margarito was still out there. They've 00:43:50.389 --> 00:43:53.309 changed their fishing gear and I forget it was 00:43:53.309 --> 00:43:55.210 something like an $8 ,000 fine. It was a small 00:43:55.210 --> 00:43:59.150 fine because with them, what I did not do was 00:43:59.150 --> 00:44:03.130 get one entire steady shot of the entire net 00:44:03.130 --> 00:44:06.300 going out and coming back. to show that they 00:44:06.300 --> 00:44:08.619 didn't have these devices throughout the net 00:44:08.619 --> 00:44:15.079 that is supposed to emit the sound of a, it's 00:44:15.079 --> 00:44:17.119 like a ping, it sounds like a killer whale that 00:44:17.119 --> 00:44:19.960 keep the sea mammals away. What I did do was 00:44:19.960 --> 00:44:22.239 I showed different portions of the net and then 00:44:22.239 --> 00:44:25.099 I showed how they had those devices in a bucket 00:44:25.099 --> 00:44:27.539 on the top of the boat instead of on the net. 00:44:27.780 --> 00:44:29.900 But because I didn't get that entire steady shot, 00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:31.599 they're like, I'm sorry, you know, that's a problem. 00:44:31.960 --> 00:44:34.559 But I got it on the Albatro. which resulted, 00:44:34.639 --> 00:44:37.000 it was like over $70 ,000. I'm not mistaken. 00:44:37.079 --> 00:44:40.460 It was a massive fine, but irrelevant because 00:44:40.460 --> 00:44:45.360 the Albatross mysteriously sunk in Harbor. So, 00:44:46.320 --> 00:44:50.039 you know, I guess, I guess the captain saw the 00:44:50.039 --> 00:44:52.539 writing on the wall there. Can anybody say insurance 00:44:52.539 --> 00:44:54.920 fraud, right? Is that an insurance? Yeah, exactly. 00:44:55.960 --> 00:44:58.539 Yeah. You know, and so that's, you know, it's, 00:44:58.539 --> 00:45:00.739 it's, it's disappointing, you know, that not 00:45:00.739 --> 00:45:04.039 everybody was sent to jail, not everybody was 00:45:04.039 --> 00:45:09.300 hit with a massive fine, but banning an entire 00:45:09.300 --> 00:45:14.480 fishery and knowing that that will save lives. 00:45:15.519 --> 00:45:19.500 And that saving those lives, that's gonna be 00:45:19.500 --> 00:45:23.139 such a, not just a benefit to those individual 00:45:23.139 --> 00:45:25.139 lives, but to all the wildlife in the ocean. 00:45:25.690 --> 00:45:27.889 You know, that's what it was all about. Yeah. 00:45:27.989 --> 00:45:30.030 I mean, and that's what's great about this case 00:45:30.030 --> 00:45:33.130 is you were able to separate out. You've got 00:45:33.130 --> 00:45:35.610 the criminal law, federal law enforcement stuff 00:45:35.610 --> 00:45:39.750 you're documenting and reporting. And then you've 00:45:39.750 --> 00:45:42.550 also got the goals of the NGO, which is to take 00:45:42.550 --> 00:45:46.929 a hard look at this drift netting and to expose 00:45:46.929 --> 00:45:49.050 kind of what's happening and at least inform 00:45:49.050 --> 00:45:52.320 legislators and the public about it. And great 00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:54.880 result on both sides. I mean, that is the perfect 00:45:54.880 --> 00:45:57.780 marriage with different interests coming together 00:45:57.780 --> 00:46:00.659 to achieve their respective goals without interfering 00:46:00.659 --> 00:46:03.460 with each other, you know? Yeah, but it, you 00:46:03.460 --> 00:46:06.199 know, very seriously, you know, it would never 00:46:06.199 --> 00:46:09.719 have happened without you. You know, if I never 00:46:09.719 --> 00:46:13.679 would have thought I could go out and I can work 00:46:13.679 --> 00:46:15.960 undercover on fishing boats, and then I would 00:46:15.960 --> 00:46:18.039 even know what the violations are that would 00:46:18.039 --> 00:46:22.980 be on them. And that, you know, There's federal 00:46:22.980 --> 00:46:25.360 agencies that will say, yes, we'd love to take 00:46:25.360 --> 00:46:28.219 that evidence and do something with it. If you 00:46:28.219 --> 00:46:30.880 had not reached out all those years before, that 00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:37.019 was the catalyst to that. There's an enormous 00:46:37.019 --> 00:46:42.679 amount of NGOs that laid down the entire foundation 00:46:42.679 --> 00:46:44.920 to help pass that legislation. So I'll do credit 00:46:44.920 --> 00:46:47.570 for them. But I have to say, like, I think the 00:46:47.570 --> 00:46:50.170 footage really helped to get it passed, right? 00:46:50.389 --> 00:46:53.170 And the footage would not have exist if you had 00:46:53.170 --> 00:46:55.469 not written that letter all those years ago, 00:46:55.670 --> 00:46:59.389 man. Very cool. I love it. Do you feel like working, 00:46:59.389 --> 00:47:02.409 you know, connecting with not just me, but the 00:47:02.409 --> 00:47:05.710 feds in general and working with law enforcement 00:47:05.710 --> 00:47:08.170 in the way that you worked with the U .S. Fish 00:47:08.170 --> 00:47:10.570 and Wildlife Service? Did that kind of have an 00:47:10.570 --> 00:47:14.389 impact on... you your success or your interest 00:47:14.389 --> 00:47:16.409 or ability to work with other law enforcement 00:47:16.409 --> 00:47:19.110 agencies on the animal cruelty stuff in the future? 00:47:20.429 --> 00:47:26.550 No. I really I really want to say yes, man. I 00:47:26.550 --> 00:47:30.829 really want to say so. So basically is that I 00:47:30.829 --> 00:47:33.650 and this is this is a whole thing. And I discussed 00:47:33.650 --> 00:47:37.369 this in my book because, you know, I, you know, 00:47:37.369 --> 00:47:42.019 obviously, I'm someone where Before I did this, 00:47:42.199 --> 00:47:44.199 I wanted to be a cop. I wanted to go into law 00:47:44.199 --> 00:47:48.400 enforcement. I was both pursuing a career in 00:47:48.400 --> 00:47:52.039 law enforcement, studying criminal justice, and 00:47:52.039 --> 00:47:54.199 I was becoming an animal rights activist. And 00:47:54.199 --> 00:47:57.360 so I did this job to kind of like, hold on, let 00:47:57.360 --> 00:47:59.739 me split the difference and maybe this is where 00:47:59.739 --> 00:48:02.980 I'm needed. But I had that much of a mindset 00:48:02.980 --> 00:48:08.820 for law enforcement. And I have worked with incredible 00:48:08.820 --> 00:48:12.739 cops, incredible agents, you and Aaron. That 00:48:12.739 --> 00:48:17.059 said, I have been illegally arrested and wrongfully 00:48:17.059 --> 00:48:19.239 convicted for a crime I didn't commit on a dog 00:48:19.239 --> 00:48:25.519 cruelty case. I have had cops... I just recently 00:48:25.519 --> 00:48:28.659 filmed a cop committing animal cruelty. He's 00:48:28.659 --> 00:48:33.030 still a cop. I've had another cop... Uh, we got 00:48:33.030 --> 00:48:35.610 body cam footage from a cop who responded to, 00:48:35.769 --> 00:48:38.489 uh, uh, this subject that I filmed committing 00:48:38.489 --> 00:48:41.010 animal cruelty. And he says, you see on the body 00:48:41.010 --> 00:48:43.489 cam footage, she tells her twice. If he sees 00:48:43.489 --> 00:48:45.769 me, he's going to kill me. And she laughs, you 00:48:45.769 --> 00:48:48.530 know, I, yeah, the, the, uh, so I've, I've worked 00:48:48.530 --> 00:48:50.769 with very good law enforcement that has taken 00:48:50.769 --> 00:48:53.849 the evidence, nailed the bad guys and did wonderful. 00:48:54.429 --> 00:48:58.150 But the amount of stories that I have where I 00:48:58.150 --> 00:49:01.920 am out there in rural America. And what I'm doing 00:49:01.920 --> 00:49:05.920 is a cruelty case that is a threat to a member 00:49:05.920 --> 00:49:08.579 of the community and a major taxpayer in the 00:49:08.579 --> 00:49:12.619 community. More often than not, there's this 00:49:12.619 --> 00:49:16.340 response from local law enforcement that is either 00:49:16.340 --> 00:49:19.880 not welcoming or threatening. It breaks my heart 00:49:19.880 --> 00:49:21.800 to say that because I know you have a lot of 00:49:21.800 --> 00:49:24.079 L .E. listeners and I love y 'all. I'm not trying 00:49:24.079 --> 00:49:26.519 to make anyone feel bad, but that's that's the 00:49:26.519 --> 00:49:29.039 truth on my side of things. No, and you know, 00:49:29.159 --> 00:49:31.559 I appreciate your honesty on that, because it's 00:49:31.559 --> 00:49:34.300 important. It's really important for law enforcement 00:49:34.300 --> 00:49:37.199 to recognize its own issues that it needs to 00:49:37.199 --> 00:49:39.960 deal with, right? But it also gives me an opportunity 00:49:39.960 --> 00:49:42.639 to get up on my soapbox just a little bit, because 00:49:42.639 --> 00:49:45.519 even in the US Fish and Wildlife Service, sometimes 00:49:45.519 --> 00:49:49.739 there is a, you know, there's a reluctance to, 00:49:51.039 --> 00:49:53.659 I guess, I don't want to say acknowledge probably 00:49:53.659 --> 00:49:57.030 isn't the right word, but associate with animal 00:49:57.030 --> 00:49:59.309 rights groups because they're often viewed as 00:49:59.309 --> 00:50:02.050 kind of radical or, you know, kind of pushing 00:50:02.050 --> 00:50:05.929 the edge of the envelope or whatever. And certainly 00:50:05.929 --> 00:50:08.389 I've had negative experiences with animal rights 00:50:08.389 --> 00:50:10.989 groups that are too, you know, they don't understand 00:50:10.989 --> 00:50:12.849 the law, they don't understand what needs to 00:50:12.849 --> 00:50:16.110 go into a criminal, approving a criminal case 00:50:16.110 --> 00:50:18.389 in court and the steps we need to take to protect 00:50:18.389 --> 00:50:20.329 people's constitutional rights and all that stuff 00:50:20.329 --> 00:50:22.690 when we do an investigation. And they can be 00:50:22.690 --> 00:50:26.519 incredibly annoying because They accuse a guy 00:50:26.519 --> 00:50:28.559 like me of not doing my job because I'm not doing 00:50:28.559 --> 00:50:30.900 it fast enough or in the way that they envision 00:50:30.900 --> 00:50:35.539 it ought to be done. But there's a middle ground 00:50:35.539 --> 00:50:38.260 there, right? There are places where the interests 00:50:38.260 --> 00:50:42.260 overlap. And if local police need to remember, 00:50:42.719 --> 00:50:45.159 animal cruelty is a crime in almost every state. 00:50:45.199 --> 00:50:47.900 And in many states now, it's a felony and can 00:50:47.900 --> 00:50:51.559 be a felony in certain circumstances. And it's 00:50:51.559 --> 00:50:54.280 proven over and over again that animal cruelty 00:50:54.440 --> 00:50:58.559 can lead to crimes against human beings. You 00:50:58.559 --> 00:51:01.019 know, the people that are predisposed to hurting 00:51:01.019 --> 00:51:03.579 an animal early in life often go on to hurting 00:51:03.579 --> 00:51:06.360 human beings. So regardless of what they think 00:51:06.360 --> 00:51:10.039 about it, there is a public safety issue and 00:51:10.039 --> 00:51:12.300 there's a legal issue that they need to pay attention 00:51:12.300 --> 00:51:17.019 to. And my soapbox would be look for the people 00:51:17.019 --> 00:51:20.500 that can help you get your job done in whatever 00:51:20.500 --> 00:51:25.489 form that takes. So when I see Pete Paxton on 00:51:25.489 --> 00:51:28.929 death on a factory farm, I'm not thinking, oh, 00:51:29.050 --> 00:51:32.010 is this crazy animal rights guy? I'm looking, 00:51:32.090 --> 00:51:34.590 and I'm saying, this dude is an incredible investigator 00:51:34.590 --> 00:51:38.969 who's got more courage than I have on these undercover 00:51:38.969 --> 00:51:44.610 cases. And we got to capitalize on this guy's 00:51:44.610 --> 00:51:47.789 skills and abilities. And in fact, I tried to 00:51:47.789 --> 00:51:50.289 recruit you to become an agent hard. I thought 00:51:50.289 --> 00:51:52.349 you should be a U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service 00:51:52.349 --> 00:51:57.110 Special Agent. We ran into the age problem. Yeah, 00:51:57.650 --> 00:52:02.550 I was really considering it. In fact, if it hadn't 00:52:02.550 --> 00:52:05.449 been the age thing, that fishing case, the Drift 00:52:05.449 --> 00:52:08.429 -Gilnett case may not have happened. I really 00:52:08.429 --> 00:52:10.730 thought my career was done, wanted to go back 00:52:10.730 --> 00:52:13.750 and pursue a career in law enforcement and was 00:52:13.750 --> 00:52:16.590 actually at the point of applying, not just You 00:52:16.590 --> 00:52:18.030 know, I dealt with the age problem that I was 00:52:18.030 --> 00:52:20.650 applying to state agencies, local agencies, you 00:52:20.650 --> 00:52:23.090 know, no one, no one was accepting my applications. 00:52:23.510 --> 00:52:27.050 And I made this last ditch effort to turn my 00:52:27.050 --> 00:52:31.070 career around. And that happened. It's been nonstop 00:52:31.070 --> 00:52:35.909 work all these years later. Yeah. Yeah. But no, 00:52:35.929 --> 00:52:40.269 but I, you know, I, I appreciate all, like every 00:52:40.269 --> 00:52:43.550 time I've, I've had, you know, when I have evidence 00:52:43.550 --> 00:52:46.599 and all I need is for Ellie to take it. Like 00:52:46.599 --> 00:52:50.059 that's it. And whenever they're skeptical or 00:52:50.059 --> 00:52:52.239 they're thinking, who's this crazy activist? 00:52:52.880 --> 00:52:55.679 I guess one thing I can say is like, just as 00:52:55.679 --> 00:52:58.440 there is the bad cop stereotype, there's the 00:52:58.440 --> 00:53:01.019 crazy activist stereotype and it's real. It's 00:53:01.019 --> 00:53:04.480 true. I run into them myself. In fact, I just 00:53:04.480 --> 00:53:07.380 gave a speech at an animal rights conference 00:53:07.380 --> 00:53:10.440 not too long ago. About the difference between 00:53:10.440 --> 00:53:13.139 being a hero and being a professional, right? 00:53:13.139 --> 00:53:15.260 You know because I see it in the movement I see 00:53:15.260 --> 00:53:18.900 enough people that you know, they they want to 00:53:18.900 --> 00:53:23.059 romanticize what I do and I have to explain like, 00:53:23.179 --> 00:53:27.079 you know, you know, I Know many other professional 00:53:27.079 --> 00:53:28.579 undercover investigators and the animal rights 00:53:28.579 --> 00:53:32.079 people to agree with this, you know We are absolutely 00:53:32.079 --> 00:53:35.280 sure as hell not heroes. Yeah, you know we undercover 00:53:35.280 --> 00:53:40.989 animal cruelty work means being in the position 00:53:40.989 --> 00:53:43.530 where the worst things happen and we don't break 00:53:43.530 --> 00:53:47.969 the law, but we do a lot of, we do the job. If 00:53:47.969 --> 00:53:49.630 you're undercover at the slaughterhouse, what 00:53:49.630 --> 00:53:51.869 do you think you're gonna do? If you're undercover 00:53:51.869 --> 00:53:54.630 at the hog farm where people are castrating pigs 00:53:54.630 --> 00:53:58.610 and what do you think you're gonna do? And it's 00:53:58.610 --> 00:54:03.130 not hero work. And so there needs to be an attempt, 00:54:03.150 --> 00:54:05.750 I think on both sides, kind of like make sure 00:54:05.750 --> 00:54:09.719 we portray not just act correctly, portray things 00:54:09.719 --> 00:54:12.099 correctly so that when we approach each other, 00:54:12.539 --> 00:54:14.719 we have the right reputation with each other. 00:54:15.039 --> 00:54:18.909 Yeah. Reasonable expectations, right? Yeah. Well, 00:54:18.989 --> 00:54:21.510 Pete, we're coming to the end of time. But before 00:54:21.510 --> 00:54:24.010 we sign off, I do want to give you an opportunity 00:54:24.010 --> 00:54:26.570 to tell us a little bit about the NGO that you 00:54:26.570 --> 00:54:28.789 and your girlfriend have formed. Tell us a little 00:54:28.789 --> 00:54:31.670 bit about that if you want to. Yeah. So my girlfriend 00:54:31.670 --> 00:54:35.929 and I run a group called SEED. It stands for 00:54:35.929 --> 00:54:38.590 Strategies for Ethical and Environmental Development. 00:54:39.489 --> 00:54:43.119 Our website is ethicalstrategies .org. We have 00:54:43.119 --> 00:54:46.159 two ends. We do cruelty investigations, and then 00:54:46.159 --> 00:54:48.980 we work with litigators to sue factory farms 00:54:48.980 --> 00:54:51.539 that pollute waterways. So that's the Clean Water 00:54:51.539 --> 00:54:56.239 Act, Resource Conservation Recovery Act. And 00:54:56.239 --> 00:55:00.159 so she's the brains behind the entire thing, 00:55:00.320 --> 00:55:03.000 has formed the NGO, gotten in touch with litigators 00:55:03.000 --> 00:55:05.280 and is working on suing factory farms, doing 00:55:05.280 --> 00:55:08.320 all that. I'm just handling some cruelty cases, 00:55:08.360 --> 00:55:11.730 but we had a big case come out recently. where 00:55:11.730 --> 00:55:14.989 I worked undercover at, I documented two more, 00:55:15.090 --> 00:55:17.550 but then worked undercover at 15 livestock auctions 00:55:17.550 --> 00:55:22.409 across the US. And the footage is all up on, 00:55:22.469 --> 00:55:24.650 you know, it's online for people to see where 00:55:24.650 --> 00:55:27.349 I saw some pretty egregious acts of cruelty at 00:55:27.349 --> 00:55:32.489 every single place. And 80 % of livestock producers 00:55:32.489 --> 00:55:35.530 get their animals to market. That's like to the 00:55:35.530 --> 00:55:38.239 grocery store. through livestock auctions, right? 00:55:38.340 --> 00:55:40.880 We usually think it's a small place, I mean, 00:55:40.880 --> 00:55:43.659 JBS and Cargill buy from these places. And I 00:55:43.659 --> 00:55:46.099 saw teenagers committing cruelty in front of 00:55:46.099 --> 00:55:48.159 their parents, parents committing cruelty in 00:55:48.159 --> 00:55:50.619 front of their kids, customers watching it and 00:55:50.619 --> 00:55:55.360 laughing about it. And it's what I call a culture 00:55:55.360 --> 00:55:58.300 of cruelty where you have good people. In fact, 00:55:58.420 --> 00:56:01.280 I put up stories, I used aliases, I put up stories 00:56:01.280 --> 00:56:03.099 of some of the people I saw committing cruel 00:56:03.099 --> 00:56:07.099 acts to explain These are just people, right? 00:56:07.239 --> 00:56:10.760 But they're extremely stressed, they're dehydrated, 00:56:10.800 --> 00:56:13.920 they're under a lot of pressure, and these animals 00:56:13.920 --> 00:56:16.519 won't move and they have to move. And the rule 00:56:16.519 --> 00:56:18.559 of thumb, just real quick to explain this for 00:56:18.559 --> 00:56:20.940 anyone who's wondering, when you talk about a 00:56:20.940 --> 00:56:22.639 commercial animal environment, the rule of thumb 00:56:22.639 --> 00:56:26.860 is the less human interaction with the animals, 00:56:27.380 --> 00:56:31.480 the more neglect. The more human interaction, 00:56:31.980 --> 00:56:36.000 the more violence. Really? Yeah, and at those 00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:38.780 auctions, constant interaction. Get them off 00:56:38.780 --> 00:56:40.760 the trailer, move them to a pen, get them to 00:56:40.760 --> 00:56:42.340 the auction ring, get them to a pen, get them 00:56:42.340 --> 00:56:44.900 on a trailer. And man, if one of those animals 00:56:44.900 --> 00:56:49.150 can't stand, or they're too scared. That's what 00:56:49.150 --> 00:56:51.969 makes them fear and pain, right? So we got a 00:56:51.969 --> 00:56:55.289 story in Vox that had Apple News top stories. 00:56:55.530 --> 00:56:59.550 We got a whole website up for it. And we're doing 00:56:59.550 --> 00:57:01.530 stuff like that so that, you know, of course 00:57:01.530 --> 00:57:04.230 we want the enforcement end on abusers, but we 00:57:04.230 --> 00:57:06.110 also want to try to bring cultural awareness. 00:57:06.190 --> 00:57:08.710 That's really the biggest goal. Absolutely, absolutely. 00:57:08.869 --> 00:57:11.190 And you know, I've talked about this on the podcast 00:57:11.190 --> 00:57:13.449 before too with regard to animal or wildlife 00:57:13.449 --> 00:57:17.869 crimes. And it's true, obviously, now for cruelty 00:57:17.869 --> 00:57:21.409 issues as well, or animal care issues, when you 00:57:21.409 --> 00:57:24.809 put the commercial aspect to it, it turns the 00:57:24.809 --> 00:57:27.170 animal, it takes them from being a sentient being 00:57:27.170 --> 00:57:30.690 into being a commodity. And when you turn that 00:57:30.690 --> 00:57:33.250 off in your brain, it's not a sentient being. 00:57:33.309 --> 00:57:36.570 It's a commodity, and it's about money. The cruelty 00:57:36.570 --> 00:57:39.269 comes easier, especially for people who are predisposed 00:57:39.269 --> 00:57:44.610 to it anyway. The commercialization really can 00:57:44.610 --> 00:57:47.590 have an insidious effect. If you're talking about 00:57:47.590 --> 00:57:50.909 living beings being commercialized, it is not 00:57:50.909 --> 00:57:54.250 good for the animal involved, whether they're 00:57:54.250 --> 00:58:00.710 wild or domestic. Mic drop. Yeah, man. I'm just 00:58:00.710 --> 00:58:03.489 going to steal that from you and say that in 00:58:03.489 --> 00:58:05.650 all my animal rights speeches now. That's it. 00:58:05.670 --> 00:58:07.809 You're welcome to do that because I've stolen 00:58:07.809 --> 00:58:10.269 many things you've said over the years. So let 00:58:10.269 --> 00:58:13.630 me just say, you and I have built a friendship 00:58:13.630 --> 00:58:16.090 over the years. We remain friends and we will 00:58:16.090 --> 00:58:18.829 remain friends and stay in touch. But I admire 00:58:18.829 --> 00:58:22.630 the hell out of what you do. And I think you're 00:58:22.630 --> 00:58:24.809 a consummate professional. I really enjoyed working 00:58:24.809 --> 00:58:27.809 with you. And be careful out there. Be very safe. 00:58:28.329 --> 00:58:30.210 But thank you for all the work you're doing. 00:58:30.389 --> 00:58:32.110 And thank you for all the work you did for Fish 00:58:32.110 --> 00:58:34.809 and Wildlife Service and the NOAA agents that 00:58:34.809 --> 00:58:37.150 you worked with in Long Beach. I appreciate it. 00:58:37.809 --> 00:58:39.860 Man, thank you. Thanks for everything you've 00:58:39.860 --> 00:58:41.480 done. The world's a better place with you and 00:58:41.480 --> 00:58:43.480 all the other agents out there. Well, thanks 00:58:43.480 --> 00:58:45.460 Pete. Thank you so much for being on the show. 00:58:45.559 --> 00:58:47.579 This is a great episode. I'm so happy you came 00:58:47.579 --> 00:58:50.699 on the season. I think our listeners are going 00:58:50.699 --> 00:58:53.340 to be just fascinated to get a window into the 00:58:53.340 --> 00:58:55.719 world of the confidential informant. Thanks so 00:58:55.719 --> 00:58:58.000 much. Thanks for being with us and everybody 00:58:58.000 --> 00:59:01.260 out there. We'll see you next time. Nature's 00:59:01.260 --> 00:59:03.300 Secret Service is written and produced by me, 00:59:03.440 --> 00:59:06.199 Ed Newcomer. and is co -produced by the DHTV 00:59:06.199 --> 00:59:09.099 team here at California State University, Dominguez 00:59:09.099 --> 00:59:11.380 Hills. Follow us on social media and connect 00:59:11.380 --> 00:59:14.059 with us online at naturessecretservice .com.