If you want to learn more about the topics of
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naturessecretservice .com. Thanks for listening.
This is Nature's Secret Service, the podcast
that puts you in the room with the men and women
of wildlife law enforcement. I'm your host, Ed
Newcomer, and today we have a really cool guest,
a friend of mine for a long time. His name is
Craig Spencer. Craig is the founder and director
of the NGO called Trans Frontier Africa, which
is based at Oliphant's West Nature Reserve in
South Africa. It's part of a larger coalition
of private nature reserves making up the greater
Kruger area, which borders and buffers Kruger
National Park in South Africa. He also served
as the head warden of Beloulé Reserve for many
years and he remains a warden of Oliphant's West.
Craig is a unique character. He's been a champion
of engaging local communities. in taking an active
role in managing the resources and environment
that are important to them. Among his initiatives
has been the formation of the Black Mambas, among
many others that we're going to talk about today.
But let me welcome Craig Spencer to the podcast.
Craig, thanks for being here. Absolute pleasure,
Ed. Good to see you again. Yeah, fantastic. We
were just kind of reminiscing before we started
recording and realized it's been a few years
since we saw each other. Craig and I actually
met while I was a special agent with the US Fish
and Wildlife Service and I was actually based
in southern Africa. My remit or my area of responsibility
was basically these nine countries in southern
Africa including South Africa. So I was very
in tune with what was going on in terms of elephant
rhino poaching, pangolin poaching out there in
the Kruger area and Craig and I met fairly early
in my time there and then We stayed in touch.
But I do have to say, to get an idea, if you're
from the US and you haven't been to South Africa,
Kruger National Park is huge. It's the size of
the state of New Jersey, basically. But surrounding
the park, at least primarily on the west side,
the east side would be Mozambique, but on the...
West Side, there are a number of private game
reserves that kind of buffer the park, right?
And Olavance West is one of those. And these
are large reserves. And for the average American
who's used to our national park system, these
are private reserves that have lodges and tourist
activities available. But they also have the
usual gamut of big game wildlife living on those
reserves. And in many cases, correct me if I'm
wrong, Craig, there's actually, the fences are
down between the reserves and the park. There's
no fences in between. Yeah. So wildlife, elephants,
lions, leopards, rhinos can move freely between
the park and some of these private reserves.
So there's a very... important shared interests
between the reserves and the national park in
terms of conserving wildlife and stopping wildlife
trafficking. So anyway, first time I met Craig,
he comes rumbling down the road in this unbelievably
beat up, beat up Land Rover Baki, which again,
for Americans, a Baki is a pickup truck, and
jumps out and here's this young guy with a charming
accent. messed up hair, windblown hair, tanned
skin, and the first thing he does, he pulls out
a pipe. I'm not allowed to smoke in here, unfortunately.
There's rules. No, but right in front of us,
he's got his little tobacco pouch with his pipe
sticking out of it, and he grabs a puff wherever
he can. But I got to tell you, Craig, when you're
in the United States, you probably discovered
this already, but where are you from originally?
You're a Brit, right? My family is English, and
I was born in Botswana. we moved on to South
Africa. I'm the last man standing there from
our family. Everybody else has moved back overseas.
You are kind of the classic, like, cut from another
era of, like, the British ex -pat living in Africa.
You've got the whole package. And when you come
here in the States, you have to know that if
you speak with a British accent and you smoke
a pipe and you talk about African wildlife, people
are going to believe everything you say. This
is good to know. Everybody who's interested in
wildlife in the States will instantly love you
just as I did. So anyway, I, we, you and I hit
it off pretty quickly and I really admire what
you're doing there. So let's stop talking about
me. Let's talk about you. Tell us a little bit
about these private reserves. Like how big is
Oliphant's West and what kind of animals do you
have living there? So yeah, that's a Exactly,
like you said before, the Kruger National Park
is about 430 kilometers long from north to south.
But at its widest point, it's only 60 kilometers,
which is a short breeze for an elephant to walk
through the night. And we have this hard public
interface with the agricultural sector and the
tribal villages and whatever, right on that western
boundary. And that public interface, that's where
you get all these human -wildlife conflict issues,
elephants breaking out, raiding crops, lions
going out and eating cattle. It was a good move
to expand the park, to absorb a lot of those
old agricultural holdings and include them into
the park. So, you know, it was very easy as well.
You take the fences down and the animals just
come and occupy those landscapes. So, yeah, 20
years later, we have everything from, like you
said, crocodiles in the rivers, hippos in every
dam, elephants, lions, cheetahs from time to
time, wild dogs, you know, it's a plethora of
the most amazing, iconic species in Africa. The
parks themselves, There's five basic units, and
that's into a cluster where we are. Wow, how
big is that? I mean, the part that I'm responsible
for is about 25 ,000 acres. And then on the other
side, so we've got two landscapes that we manage,
and on the other side, it's similar, so you could
say about 50 ,000 acres in total. And it works
on the federal system, because it's too big.
You know, you can't have like a... a principality
running the show that you actually have to have
a federal system broken into bite -sized chunks
with a common management objective, common management
plans, standard operational procedures, and cross
-border protocols as well. We're pursuing, whether
it's a wounded elephant that we have to dart
to take a snare off its foot or... a rhino that's
been shot or a poacher that'd be chasing, we
have to have cross -border protocols to say,
we're moving into the next area, can the next
warden take over in the next warden and so on.
Interesting. And you're talking about these,
that you're describing as federal, these areas
are just different areas broken up within all
the fence, or are you talking about the neighboring?
No, Woolly Funds would be one state. Gotcha.
Basically, yeah. And then the other private reserves
would be the others. Correct, yeah. And then
of course too, because there's no fence between
you and Kruger National Park, you probably have
to have operating protocols with sand parks,
which operates. That's right. They're kind of
the big brother. They're the federal agency.
Yeah, they're the government agency. That's right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's what I was going
to talk about next is, you know, so because the
wildlife moves back and forth and, you know,
poaching has touched South Africa, all of Africa,
but South Africa in particular with regard to
rhinos and other species, you're in a tough spot
because you're a private reserve. But you don't
have government authority. There's no law enforcement
authority given to the Rangers at Olefants West
or any of the other private reserves, correct?
That's right. It's a big challenge. Yeah, but
normally these parks, these reserves do have,
obviously they have patrol Rangers who are armed
usually, yeah? Yep. So it puts them in a tough
spot, right? Because they're just like a private
security guard. And South African laws with regard
to self -defense and things can be a little bit
tricky. Sometimes, in my experience, South African
police tends to show up and make arrests first
before they make any inquiries about justifiable
self -defense or anything like that, right? Very
true. Let's talk now before we jump into forming
the Black Mambas and what they are and why you
formed them. Let's make sure everybody kind of
understands what the conservation issues are
facing all of southern Africa. But Kruger and
the private reserves, including Olifant's West,
you mentioned rhinos and elephants. So let's
hear from you. I know what the situation is with
rhinos. I think most of my listeners will know
that it's an issue. What's going on with rhinos,
and also elephants, and other species in your
area? You know, Ed, if you think back to those
times when it was critical, you know, pre -COVID,
we could say. Yeah. And when I started as a warden,
I've been 20 years in that landscape. I came
from a government agency before, so it was really
hard to adjust to the public sector, I mean,
the private sector, where we no longer had any
authority. Yeah. Where did you work before? In
the Western Cape. OK. anti -poaching law enforcement.
And so it was really, it was a tough adjustment
to come into the private sector and suddenly
find that you actually don't have any authority
anymore to implement the legislations and the
rules of engagement don't even exist for you.
So when we lost our first rhino around about
2010. And it was a rude awakening for us. We
woke up one day and we discovered that our entire
law enforcement capacity was a guy on a bicycle
with a stick, you know. Yeah, that was it. His
name was Derek Amnesi. He rode around in this
bicycle, very proud of himself, slipped under
every tree, you know, because there was actually
nothing going on. Right. You know, we were managing
the park as a It was ecological management. So
we were opening and closing water holes, improving
grazing capacity, attracting animals in, doing
game counts, et cetera. The next thing you know,
we stumbled upon a rhino carcass. We realized
that this thing's being poked. And when we started
digging deeper... we recognized that we actually
had more, you'll remember this from those days,
we had more rhinos than we did elephants in the
greater Kruger system in those days. But the
elephants were being poached at a rate of 96
a day for the ivory in Sub -Sahara Africa. Wow,
I didn't know it was that high. Not just South
Africa, but the whole of Sub -Sahara. And when
they did the census in Mozambique, Though the
great elephant senses 48 % of the animals that
they counted with carcasses to use the elephants
and that's I could see it from the deck of my
camp mmm, and I thought man if this Problem persists
across this border. Mm -hmm, and you know, eventually
they're gonna run out elephants So then they
will come across the border to our neck of the
woods. We had 222 days of elephants if at that
rate of expectation Yeah, okay. So was it about
rhinos? Or was it about elephants or was it about
everything? You know, we can't focus on one thing,
but the rhinos gave us this great opportunity.
It was really hard to generate sympathy for an
elephant because they just keep raiding crops,
you know, squashing people on bicycles and, you
know, stealing your water and, you know, damaging
things. Yeah, that's, you know, that's interesting
because globally in the US, Canada, Western Europe,
elephants are very charismatic, right? Yeah.
to people who have to live with elephants in
Botswana, Zambia. They can be a pain in the neck.
They're really hard to stop. If they want to
destroy your crop, they will. And a lot of these
people, they're small. farmers and they rely
on those crops. So yeah, locally there's not
a lot of sympathy for elephants, but interesting,
was that different for rhinos? It was. You know,
suddenly the world went mental when the first
rhino was shot. It was all over social media,
it was a global phenomenon, and then we started...
we started waking up to the fact that we were
losing more than we were counting. So eventually
it got to the point where we were losing more
than three in a 24 -hour cycle, so it was nighttime
poaching. Three rhinos every night were being
poached. Three or more incursions a night onto
the landscape. It was a terrible time of our
lives, and this persisted for 10 years. And you
weren't alone. I mean, that was kind of the average
when I landed in Southern Africa in 2015. And
yeah, right away, it was clear to me the average
among the private reserves that had rhinos and
Sandparks, Kruger, yeah, they were losing three
to four a day. And that's not sustainable. Rhinos
cannot, they can't outbreed that. Not a chance.
And you know, this is not the first time this
has happened to rhinos. In my conservation career
spanning 30 years, this is the third time that
rhinos have almost been poached to extinction.
So it comes in waves. Interesting. You know,
when I started, we had operation by Cornice Way
back when at the what was it, the end of the
80s, the early 90s. You know, all the same debates,
all the same issues, all the same efforts made
to de -horn and put bitumen on the stump so it's
not attractive and la la la. And then it goes
away. And that was when the Yemenis were selling
the daggers with the handles as a rite of passage
to adulthood, if you remember. Yeah, I was just
going to ask you, what was the driver's then?
It was a different driver, right? It was a different
driver, yeah. Fascinating. That, to me, is what's
really fascinating because I've always talked
about wildlife trafficking kind of going in waves
or cycles. And, you know, law enforcement tamps
it down and it goes away for a while and then
it comes back. Absolutely. Yeah. But what was
so fascinating about rhinos is, yeah, the early
drivers were there was some use of it for Asian
medicinal, but the real driver was, yeah, those
many special daggers where the handle had to
be carved out of rhino horn. I remember that
when I was in college, that was like all over
the news. We should never forget that. Yeah.
And that entire culture, if you like. has shifted.
Yes. You know, I think it was when oil was suddenly
a big deal for the Yemenese economy, and now
it's probably yachts and Ferraris, you know,
that are more important as a gift. I think, too,
there was kind of an awareness that they may
be contributing to the demise of a species, right?
That was my impression. I like to think so as
well, and they became part of, but I do think
oil was catalytic because they actually became
part of the global community then as well, you
know, and the norms and standards in their society
probably went through a shift. Interesting. But
you're absolutely right. They saw the writing
on the wall. They didn't want to be responsible
for the extinction of a species. Yeah, yeah.
Which is great. Or a number of species, because
there's many rhinos. I mean, look what happened
in Java. How many rhinos are left there? In Vietnam.
There's 50. There's zero in Vietnam. Yeah. They
went extinct. in my time as a conservationist.
2010 was the last job in rhino in Vietnam. Scary
stuff. But now, so this cycle, like you said,
you've gone through several cycles, but this
new cycle that emerged around 2010 to 2013 -ish,
what was the driver of that? So the end user
market, the consumer market is primarily in China,
but then Vietnam became a new consumer. And it's
not even part of their traditional lifestyle,
medicine, whatever it is. But I think the smuggling
route through Vietnam probably stimulated a market
with the syndicates there, because they've got
that porous border with China. So, yeah, and
now we sit with this, not just one cultural...
traditional use that we have to try and get a
handle on, we've now got this whole new market
that's feeding the supply and demand chain. Exactly.
And I think most people get confused, or a lot
of people get confused, and they still think
of it in terms of its value as an aphrodisiac
or a medicine. That ain't really it. It's a little
bit. But the big thing now is it's a status symbol,
right? And they'll carve it into these elaborate
what they call libation cups. It looks like a
cup, but it's very intricately carved. Same with
ivory. A lot of it is about status. It's carved
into very almost, you know, pretty amazing pieces
of art. But the reason you want it is not necessarily
to consume it, it's to show the rest of the world
how affluent you are. It is. It's like having
the red Ferrari. Yes, exactly. You show your
neighbors how important you are by having them
over to dinner and they see a rhino horn libation
cup on your mantle. You know, there's an interesting
story. I know this is anecdotal, but way back
when, whether this is a true story on urban legend
or not, it's still worth telling. the first warden
of the Kruger National Park, Stevenson Hamilton,
I think his name was. And he had an audience
with the royal family. And he was asked, is it
true that Rhino Horn is an aphrodisiac? And he
said, Madam, the only way that it will work is
if you cut it into strips and use it as a splint.
And he's right. I suppose they're the right shape.
Yeah. That's a great story. But it's a false
story. It's never been used as an aphrodisiac,
ever. I don't know actually how that story started,
maybe just because it looks kind of phallic.
I don't know. And then it was kind of exacerbated
in Vietnam, I think, because of some time around
2010 -ish. a Vietnamese government official went
public, claimed that he had cured his cancer
by drinking rhino horn at Tincture. And then
it just exploded for that reason too. So you
have multiple threats to the horn or rhinos,
which is really a bad combination. I mean, I've
got a whole, you know, this whole supply and
demand chain thing with like 22 ,000 white rhinos
left. How could we possibly hope to meet the
demand if we legalize the trade? I'm not sure
if you're going to touch on trade at any stage.
I would love to talk about the whole legalization
thing, because that was something I fought hard
against when I was based over in Africa. Absolutely.
I envisioned we would be talking mostly about
the Black Mamas today, but there's so much to
talk about. There is. This is such a great topic.
And it needs to be unpacked. It does. There's
so many angles to this. And just on that trade
issue, the people mustn't forget that in the
mid -90s, it was in 96 or 98, when WWF convinced
the Chinese Traditional Medicine Council to use
the saiga antelope horn as a substitute for rhino
horn in a last -ditch attempt to save the rhinos
from poaching in those days. Okay, and there
were two and a half million satyaga antelope
on the Mongolian steppes on the russian steppes
And it was the new science magazine. It's one
of my Favorite quotes. It's a frightening quote
the fastest extinction of a land mammal in the
history of the world Not even a meteor strike
Could cause the extinction An animal as fast
as the consumers did wiping out that species
Okay, they still relics or remnants of that's
been this all conservation projects running around
you guys are in Mongolia Sorry, I'm looking at
Katie sitting on my left hand side Nobody else
can see that. She's sitting over. Yeah. Yeah,
I didn't I didn't introduce her yet I was gonna
wait. She'll probably be on in a second. But
yeah, Katie Shaw from The Living Desert is here
and that's where we're recording today at a fabulous
a fabulous zoo and garden out in Palm Desert,
a place called Living Desert. They do amazing
work out here. They have an amazing facility,
and they've actually helped law enforcement in
the past by taking seized animals, particularly
reptiles. And continue to do so. And continue
to do so. Absolutely. So Katie's here. She's
listening. We're going to get her on the show
here. Can you imagine? Can you imagine if you
think you can meet the demand? Yeah. And you
know, you want to stimulate the trade by legalizing,
you know, the sale of stockpiles or 3D printed
horns, and I've heard so many crackpot stories,
you know. Imagine if, and as you said, it's a
status symbol, so only the elite can actually
afford it. Imagine if you have a population of
1 .4 billion Chinese people, and 1 % of them
can afford it. Now you make it available, so
5 % can afford it. Exactly. My goodness. Exactly.
Are we crazy? Yeah. It's a no brainer. And yeah,
you're touching on two things that have always
been really important to me. Like one, to me,
it's the emerging, you know, affluence of China
and Vietnam that are allowing this. And the populations
there are so huge that even a small percentage
of affluent or even just moderately, moderately
affluent people could be disastrous if they get
onto a particular fad or trend, right? Absolutely.
And then It would be the extinction of the rhino.
You couldn't farm them fast enough. No. Talking
about the cap, there was a movement. Namibia,
South Africa were two countries in favor of legalizing
the trade in harvested horn that was taken humanely
off of live rhinos that were held in captivity
and the sale of stockpiles. And to me, I'm sure
you're going to agree with this, Craig. Absolutely
opposed to that because it is always cheaper
to go poach an animal than it is to raise one.
100%. And also remember that in traditional medicine,
a farm -grown thing doesn't have as much voodoo.
as a wild thing that's dodged lions and, you
know, the person that had to harvest it dodged
poachers, anti -poaching teams, bullets in the
army and what have you. And, you know, we found
towards the end when these stockpiles were leaking
through, remember when they started on the dehorning
of rhinos? And then there's huge hauls of 40
plus horns who have been confiscated, being smuggled
across borders. And our borders are porous, I
mean, we're third world, you know, what do you
expect? And that was my other argument. Legalize
anything you like as long as you can control
it and there is no evidence to suggest that a
country like South Africa has got any integrity
at their borders I'm sorry to say you know I
mean just goes all the way up to the top So now
they're confiscating these massive halls of horns
that clearly come from dehorned rhinos somewhere
so the poachers were shooting the wild rhinos
and Then removing a tail or an ear or something
to prove to the buyer that it's from a wild animal
Interesting that the animal had to die for this
horn to be produced, you know, sort of thing.
So forget legalizing nonsense like that. It's
not gonna work. Why do we keep making the same
mistakes? Plus these stockpiles have actually
led to deaths. I believe it was the Limpopo ranger
station was robbed around 2015, 16 by some armed
gunman just came in and killed all the rangers
and stole every single elephant tusk and every
single rhino horn that was in their stockpiles
to sell. Yeah I mean so you know people that
we haven't talked about this Craig the in you
know the in sail point of a big rhino horn. In
China Vietnam's going for a hundred hundred fifty
thousand dollars US Maybe more now. I don't know.
It's about twenty five to thirty five thousand
per kg now per kg Yeah, so, you know how much
I mean times that by twenty. Yeah, every the
exchange rate is not it's it's a lot of money
It's kill you kill you money for sure. Yeah,
it's the kind of money people will kill you for
and and it happens all the time in Africa People
get killed over this stuff And one last thing,
this whole issue on legalizing rhino horn trade
for stockpiled rhino horn or a captively harvested
horn where it can be the rhino's anesthetized
and the horn's cut off because they do grow back
because it's basically like a fingernail. Here's
our first curse word of the day. Sidey's tried
this bullshit. We've been very good so far. Yeah,
we've been keeping it under control. Craig and
I are used to letting the f -bombs fly. My mother
would be proud. Yeah, you know, Sidey's tried
this before where they allowed a sell -off of
stockpiled ivory. And all it did was create a
market. It created a market and it allowed for
the laundering of poached ivory, because it's
always cheaper to go kill an elephant than it
is to kill a star box. How are you supposed to
tell the difference? You can't. We've got to
remember that these are syndicates. They're not
just going to syndicate it. If they can buy up
that stockpile, there's probably enough diamonds
in the world to give every woman a handful. But
we regulate the, we leak it onto the market to
keep the price up. And that's exactly what they
do with the rhino one. They would buy the stockpiles
and they would regulate the price. There's nothing
good about legalizing the sale of any wildlife
product, unless you're the guy selling it, because
you're the only one that's going to benefit.
Exactly. You saw the biggest advocate of this
in South Africa, John Hume. With his 2 ,000,
whatever, runners under arrest. Guess where he
is now? Sitting in the chookie. Exactly. John
Hume, if listeners don't know, he was the largest...
Largest private owner of rhinos. I think he had
the largest private rhino herd. A very wealthy
guy in South Africa. For a long time, everybody
in law enforcement suspected him of being involved
in selling his captive horns. He was investing
a lot of money in trying to get the whole rhino
horn trade legalized. smelled bad. He was arrested
recently by South African police, charged with
trafficking and rhino horns. No shocker. And
you know what? It's not the first time. The little
bugger just got off on the previous ones because
of technicalities. Is that right? I didn't know
that. Oh yeah. I didn't know that. Interesting.
There's another... there's another rhino horn
farmer too we could talk about but you know what
that one's a little closer to home yeah yeah
yeah i know i know and i i have a great story
about that guy he tried anyway we won't get he
tried he tried to meet with me once and convinced
me to advocate for him and i smelled the rat
on that one right away anyway uh let's back up
now you you We've gotten a little bit off track,
but I think it's a good discussion. But you mentioned,
you know, where we were, where you were in 2010
-13 is losing three rhinos a day in Oliphant.
So that's unsustainable. One of the things, obviously,
you're going to ramp up your law enforcement
response, your patrols, your armed, all of that.
But one of the things that you kind of hit on
was this idea of forming the Black Mambas. What
year did you form the Black Mambas? It was 2013.
2013. So right, right. You know, things are going
crazy with the rhinos getting killed. Tell us
about the Black Mambas. What makes the Black
Mambas unique? Oh, man. The Black Mambas was
a concept that was born around that campfire
where we stood up in my little camp on the hill.
Yeah, yeah. And vast quantities of Captain Morgan
as well, because he's kind of the inspiration
behind everything. Craig, you're breaking the
fundamental rule of what happens in the bush
stays in the bush. But we recognize that using
the old traditional techniques has never yielded
the results. You know, you can't do away with
it, but you know, what did we do whenever there
was a crisis, we would go dust off our old army
uniforms, take out our rusty old guns, paint
our war paint and go chasing after the problem
and try and shoot the problem away. Then all
we did was divide. You know polarized communities,
right? There's the people in the park and there's
the people in the communities There's a massive
fence now. There's more money spent on helicopter
fuels at almost like an arms race, you know So
we recognize that this was not appropriate and
I also believe that we were destabilizing communities
You bet, you know, yeah taking out the breadwinners,
you know either locking up the the fathers or
You know sending them in a body bag somewhere
else Orphans, widows, it just gives the syndicates
the upper hand. You know, the people start hating
you. It says, anyway, we wanted a different approach
and we wanted to build a different model which
included that tier right at the bottom that the
British policing model has got. The bobby's on
the beat. The unarmed, they're everywhere. They
cover a lot of ground. It's eyes and ears. You
know, everywhere you go, you see a bobby. and
you know they're just well spoken and they look
good in their uniforms and tap you on the shoulder
and ask you what you're doing here you know and
you know when they ran out of policemen per capita
whatever the ratio is they put cardboard cutouts
In the UK? Yeah, in the supermarkets and what
have you, because it still triggers that organ
in your brain to say, hick, I was going to shoplift,
but, you know, as a reminder that I probably
shouldn't do that. Interesting. OK. We wanted
to be visible. We wanted to saturate the landscape.
We wanted to disrupt the landscape and we wanted
to make it unprofitable for poachers to poach
with a few that we had caught. In the beginning
and there's another embarrassing thing it with
everything you met my dog in those days the three
-legged dog Oh, yeah, you lost the dog in the
line of duty and then sorry crocodile ended up
eating him I don't think I needed to know that
I'm actually wearing his collar as bracelets
now Whatever they asked me to take the wolf at
the airport to say there's one thing you can
never ask me I will do everything else for you
You can even rub a glove me, you know, but I'm
not taking these off good for you. Yeah anyway
We got Belgian Malinois man trained in Germany
by the German police for purpose hardcore. We
have full night vision equipment We have helicopters.
We have special forces, you know, we have laser
dot sights We have everything a poacher is a
guy with a pair of flip -flops. Yeah he doesn't
even have a flashlight. He comes in with a rusty
old gun with a compromised barrel because they
weld an old shock absorber on the front as a
silencer. So it compromises the sights, it compromises
the accuracy, it compromises the velocity. The
whole weapon is compromised. He might have three
or four rusty old bullets in his pocket that
are green from the sweat on his hands, and he
sneaks around in the landscape, shoots a rhino,
and goes out undetected. And with all the tricks
in the book, we can't catch them. So the model,
had failed you know the old traditional policing
model or you identify crime then you identify
criminal you pursue said criminal then you apprehend
criminal and you try and prosecute criminal we
failed on every one of those steps interesting
lowest lowest detection rate of crime we might
find a carcass two or three days later we sometimes
never found them right until the white bones
are shining when you do your annual aerial census
you know to try and identify who done it you
know three guys one gun Who are you gonna prosecute?
We work on Roman Dutch law right mens rea criminal
intent Stop a vehicle has got a rhino horn in
the back. The guy says hey I was paid 50 bucks
to pick these guys up on the side of the road
I didn't ask what was in the bag. There's no
criminal intent. It's so hard to get a prosecution.
Why would you try? With such a day if you worked
out the amount of rhinos that died to the amount
of prosecutions that we had 56 rhinos had to
die for a prosecution Wow, and then The president
has a birthday and he releases all the criminals
for his birthday present. You know, it's a stupid
model. So why waste all the money on it? I don't
say you shouldn't try. I'm just saying don't
put all your hopes and dreams in that model.
You gotta remember you're talking to a former
federal agent. I'm all about law enforcement.
So we want to do exactly, I know you'll understand
this stuff, man. We wanted to displace the crime
of rhinos and elephants and penguins and whatever
else. I mean, everything gets stolen in the bush,
even wood, you know? So we wanted to displace
the crime off the landscape, firstly, and secondly,
onto a different commodity. Cash in transit,
vehicle theft, knocking off liquor stores, hijackings
and what have you, because the public prosecutors
know how to deal with that shit. And you know,
and the police know how to get involved, and
they've done it a hundred times. But if I phone
a policeman in the middle of the night and I
say, hey man, I've got a guy and I think he shot
a rhino. Two days later, my dog sniffs out an
old rifle lying under a tree. The next day, we
find the rhino carcass. We try and get the ballistics
matched up, you know? And then you stand in court.
Five years later, you're standing in court and
the defense attorney says, I read in the newspapers
here that you had three and a half incursions
a night, you know? This weapon was matched up
to three or four different carcasses. Is it not
possible? that another poaching group was on
this landscape. You bet. Yeah, at the time, of
course it is. Reasonable doubt. Absolutely. No
case. Yeah. So why bother? Yeah, okay. So we
saturated the landscape, we disrupted the landscape.
I can't remember what your question was. Well,
your long explanation is fine because it actually
leads us right to what are the black mambas,
why are they so special, and why did you form
them? I think we got to the why. You're going
to try to model off the British Bobby system,
unarmed. but eyes on the ground, kind of presence
that deters. But what is it that's unique? Proactive
stuff, yes. So Black Mambas, they're unique.
We wanted women. Women. It had to be women. It's
an all -female anti -poaching unit. Yes, first
of its kind, ever in the world. Awesome. And
you should ask me why. I'm about to. And the
reason you have to ask why is because the answer
is awesome and amazing. And you know, my father's
an old military man, and he thought I was starting
a cult down in South Africa. He was very dubious,
a whole bunch of women in camouflage uniforms,
chanting and whatever. Yeah, marching. They're
very disciplined. Extremely disciplined. Goodness,
you know, they took to the training like you've
never seen. And I've trained a lot of people
in my life. And the women took to the training.
training with gusto. And I didn't have a single
one fall of the training course. No kidding.
Yeah, if I recruited 20, 20 finished. Awesome.
It's incredible, because they all help each other
along. Yeah, yeah. You know, I'd catch them sneaking
baked bean tins in their sleeves, you know, when
they're marching. And I can see this big fat
thing in the sleeve going up and down, you know.
And so when you make them stand in the sun long
enough for it to start getting hot, and then
it burns, and then they want to roll their sleeves
up, but they can't. So it was great fun, great
fun training. Why all women? Because, Ed, you
know, we have to step out of the arena at some
stage. Either because, you know, we're in our
50s now. You know, you look like you're in your
30s. I'm not sure. That's going to get me a free
drink, I think, at the bar somewhere. You're
down for a free dinner on that one. I hope you
and Horde do. But, you know, the reality is that
we can't do this forever. We have to pass on
the torch. It's the local community's responsibility.
It's theirs. to cherish and nurture and we need
to instill environmental patriotism into them.
Otherwise, it's just an arms race, bigger fences,
more helicopter fuel every year to try and protect
this for the rich white people that come down
on safari. So why women is because with the investment
I make into them today, I will get a multi -generational
output. So it's like a Swiss bank account. And
I take a young woman, she just finished high
school, I train her up, I equip her and I deploy
her. and give her all the resources, financial
resources, whatever, to be the breadwinner in
that house, to be the responsible person in that
community. Suddenly she has the decision -making
capacity to decide if she wants to have another
child or not, or if she wants to build a new
room on her house, or send her kids to a proper
school. You know, all those kind of decisions
are hers to make. She's not sitting, and the
husband is the breadwinner, and she's just collecting
sticks and things, you know, for the fire. So,
and imagine when she retires with me. So it's
got to be a career choice. Interesting. I need
to employ them, upskill them, and continue to
find incentives for them to improve and climb
the ladder, which is my biggest challenge, you
know, because I mean, we're 13 years down the
drag, and they're very loyal to me, and I'm very
loyal to them. And now, you know, you've got
to keep finding ways to keep them engaged. Sure.
And the secret is to make sure that once I've
recruited somebody, that they will retire with
me. Interesting. So it's like a professional
option for them. Yes, a full career choice. And
these are women from the local communities just
outside Olaphonse West or any of the private
reserves along that line. So they have influence
in the community they live in. Very much so.
And now they're invested in the wildlife. Yeah.
And you know, the idea is they must have kids.
Because then the knowledge transfer happens and
then they will retire and they will be sitting
at home and looking after the children of their
children. And that's where I get the bang for
buck. So you know that whole thing about planting
a seed but never expecting to sit in the shade
of the tree kind of thing? Have you heard that
analogy? It's that. So I know, I'm sitting here
in the United States of America in the living
desert, and they're running the show. They're
putting their own patrol orders out there, they're
running their own operations center, they're
dividing their teams up to cover the threats
and the risks and what have you. They do their
SWAT analysis before they go out. It's fantastic.
That is what empowerment is. Empowerment is not
taking somebody, dressing them up, and then still
telling them what to do every day. Now it's hard
for me, and it'll be hard for you too, because
we are from a top -down approach. If I'm in charge,
I'm telling you what to do. There's no ambiguity.
This is not a bloody democracy. Especially when
you're in law enforcement, you can't have a democratic
process. It's got to be a chain of command. But
I've had to learn, Katie knows. There's the Katie,
the secret Katie. Katie's here. I've got a tactical
Katie. You know how we've had to adjust everything
from the training protocol, the recruitment protocol,
to the training protocol, to the deployment protocol,
the equipment that they need. Everything had
to change to make this work. And it was so easy.
Okay. Once we just go so stuck in a rut. with
how we train a Ranger and deploy a Ranger. So
they're unarmed. What are they trained to do?
What's a Black Mamba? Ninjas. Ninjas. They do
have all that necessary training because it's
actually, it's unit standards. You have to, you
know, you can't be appointed as a private security
officer or a game Ranger, what do they call it?
A field Ranger. Unless you have done those training
courses. I see. So they have that. I do not arm
them for a number of reasons. And one of them
is that I believe a weapon changes your mind.
I carried a weapon for most of my career for
these 30 years. And I know psychologically that
it does change. You become a little braver and
you take bigger risks. But the point is these
are mothers or future mothers and they will be...
tucking their children into bed at night, and
I want them to be telling stories, going to the
community, sitting in the local Shabin, which
is the local outdoor bars there, and I want them
to be telling stories about the elephants drinking
at the water holes, and the hyenas crying at
night, you know? Not... Oh, and then I had my
big old gun, you know, and then the double stack
magazine was 762 and blah, blah, blah, you know,
because that's the talk I hear around the campfire
every bloody night was my armed response team,
you know, and I think imagine if that's all you've
got to talk about, you know, we're not winning
hearts and souls in the community with the velocity
of a bloody two to three. Well, and then I think
there's something to that. You mentioned to if
you. If a poacher encounters armed Rangers, they
may be more likely to use violence against the
Rangers preemptively, right? 100 % So there's
that too, but they're how so they're out there
being essentially the eyes and ears Why is that
a deterrent to poachers versus the the six guys
with a gun? I know, you know, yeah, I get criticized
so much for our deployment policy because We've
done the homework. We've actually published it
in various journals as well, tested it and published
it. Purchase the information that they are buying
from the insiders, the gate guards, the crooked
rangers, whatever it is, is how to get in and
out of the landscape undetected. Right. You know?
Right. They don't want to be seen. They do not
want to be seen. Yeah. So that's the intel that
they're buying. It's kind of useless to them
if they're buying the location of a rhino three
hours ago, you know? Right. What the fuck? I
mean, that thing could be anyway. Yeah. Yeah.
And anyway, they don't need that. Yeah. They
know how rhinos work. They're no fool. This is
fools. Yeah. And you know, it's normally, poachers
are normally in a group of three, as you know.
One of them is always somebody that's off duty,
that should be working at a lodge, could be working
at a lodge. Right. So they know the landscape,
they know everything. What they don't know is
where are the enforcement agents. Right. and
they want to avoid them at all costs. So if I
saturate the landscape and it's visible, shiny
badges on the side of the cars, flashing lights,
you know, when you're driving down the highway
and you see an official car, your heart rate
goes up. You quickly look around to see what
your speed is. You stick on your safety belt.
You go through this mental thing. Maybe you do,
but I always follow along. I don't even have
a seatbelt in my Land Rover, man. I know you
don't. I don't even think the brakes work anymore.
I don't think they worked then either, when I
met you. But that's the idea of visible policing.
Somebody that's considering coming into poach,
or is insider. They're saying, no, don't bother.
These guys, they're all over the place. They're
sitting in all these hides on top of hills. You
can see their spotlights out every night. There's
vehicles up and down. They're stopping every
car and questioning them. So there's a lot of
proactive stuff. In between their patrols, they're
knocking on doors. Interesting. Riding down who's
staying where. Cell phone numbers. Can I have
a look? Thank you very much. Looking in their
bags. Wow. Yeah. Of people that are inside the
reserve. That's right. Yeah. There's a lot of
effort going into keeping the landscape clear,
but not a single shot has been fired in anger
since I appointed them. No kidding. At them or
including at your armed rangers? Either way.
Wow. It's just like the landscape is saturated
with these undies. Do you feel like it has actually
helped reduce the amount of poaching you've got
on the reserve? I would like to say yes. But
at the same time, I'm not stupid enough to take
credit for that. I think what really helped us
a lot was the COVID -19. It stopped the supply
and demand chain dead in its tracks. It made
it very hard to move the horn, right? Yes, it
did. Because this happened. I was in Africa when
COVID hit. Unlike the United States, when Africa
shut down, the military was all over the place
on the roads. Police were on the roads. You could
not drive without answering questions. And so
it became extremely risky to be moving contraband.
Just moving around in general. Yes, and all the
insiders at the same time. Yes, they weren't
in the park anymore. wasn't a single useful person
to a poacher. So the parks were ghost towns.
I actually think that had the single biggest
effect because, quite frankly, in the rural areas
where we are in the national parks network, a
poacher could easily have got in and out because
there was no other traffic on the roads. But
it's the fact that they had nobody inside the
park that they could phone and say, we're the
anti -poaching guys tonight, Bob. Damn, Bob's
at home. You know, I want to get back to the
Mambas. But in this regard, with the corruption
and everything, my big thing has always been
just because you're poor doesn't mean you break
the law. Thank heavens. Yeah, I know. So excusing
law breaking because a person is poor, I don't
buy it. But the real insidious side of the whole
rhino horn trafficking, pangolin trafficking,
ivory trafficking is that Local people who are
poor are corrupted by those syndicates who come
in from outside the communities, and they're
offering a lot of money, and they corrupt people,
and they also corrupt rangers who live in those
communities, right? And those rangers face a
lot of issues living in the same community where
potentially bad guys live. Their personal safety
could be at risk. They could be worried about
their families, and maybe that's why they're
corrupt, or they're corrupted by money. So, you
know, there are these outside influences from
larger, well -funded criminal enterprises that
corrupt these people. Why do you think the black
mambas have been so resistant to corruption?
You know, I like to say a lot of things about
that, but it's a phenomenon and I actually think
it's cultural. You know, the other reason why
we selected women apart from the multi -generational
return on investment, it's also because they're
the primary caregivers in their community. I
see. So, you know, and we must recognize that
in the employment model. We must recognize that
at least half of their responsibility is towards
their... kinship model and their pseudo kinship
model in the community. So the old grandpas and
grannies and even the sick donkeys and what have
you and the young kids, if we're going to any
of these ladies' houses, there's like a hundred
kids running around. And you say, wow, you've
been busy. And they say, it's not mine. I don't
know, they're just on the streets and they must
get fed and bring them in, bring them in. And
this is the neighbor's kids and that's the other
one down the road, but she's sick and that one's
at work. You know, they're just carers. there
are phenomenal nurturers and resource managers
because they're the ones that have to do the
firewood collecting and getting the water in
those big 20 -liter cans on their heads and what
have you. So they don't want the water to be
wasted and the firewood to be wasted because
they just have to go out and do it again. And
it's the men that are just coming in and burning
all the wood and sitting around the fire all
night drinking their beer and splashing the water
all over the show and so on. So they will secretly
have stashes and caches and they have to think
differently, a different set of neuro pathways.
I know it's not answering your question, but
I don't know why they have. Yeah, but you're
kind of implying that they might have a better
sense of consequences. Yes. Thinking down the
road, right? Okay, the short term on becoming
corrupted and taking money to say where rhinos
are is a short term gain, but it may harm me
and my family and my community long term. Absolutely.
Let me tell you. Which men don't normally. That
is right. Men are notoriously not consequence
thinkers. You know, I want to collect sexy Land
Rovers, you know, and you know, I've got to put
kids through school, but they can probably make
it themselves, you know. Oh, let me tell you
a story. Is it the Land Rover story? Sort of.
I once traveled up to a small village. I can't
remember the name of it, but it was in Mozambique
just across the border from South Africa. I don't
think it was that one. Massingir. Yes, Massingir.
Oh my god, the poacher. Total poacher haven,
right? Absolutely. So Massingir, it's right across
the border, which means it's right across the
border from Kruger National Park. One thing that
really struck me, we're driving through town.
First of all, we were told by the local magistrate
in that town that we needed to be out of there
by dark because it would not be safe for us.
Because it had already gotten around that US
government people were there. Okay, looking into
poaching. Anyway, so we're driving down the street
and I'm like, you know, looking at house, little
house after little house and you're going along
and you're like, oh wow, that's a rough house
to live in. Ooh, there's another rough house.
Ooh, those people are just barely making it.
And then all of a sudden, oh, huge, beautiful
house with a beautiful Land Rover in it. And
what really struck me is, Okay, that's a guy
clearly who's involved in some criminal activity,
probably rhino horn trafficking. And this bogus
baloney that he is somehow benefiting his community.
Everybody else is living in dirt and the single
school yard in the town has no windows and no
playground. It's a greed -based thing because
he wants that new Land Rover. And it's a live
for the day mentality. Yeah, live for the day
mentality. Yeah. And that may be different from
the black mambas thinking longer term. They are.
And it is one thing that they hold closer to
their hearts than anything else in the world.
It's their families, their kids, you know, and
they think ahead for their kids. They want the
very best for their kids. And that's why we make
a huge mistake by excluding that value system
out of Who is the most, I mean, those kids, I
don't know how to say this, but the kids spend
probably more than 75 % of their time with the
mother in those communities, if not 100 % of
their time with the mother or the grandmother,
the woman. Because the men are kind of, you know,
rather conspicuous in their absence, you know?
It's like a wham -bam, thank you, ma 'am, the
baby's yours, the pleasure's mine, okay, bye.
And you can edit that out if you want to. Yeah,
we're gonna cut that. Katie's cracking up over
here. But it is a thing. So, you know, the moral
compass of that child, you know, when that child
grows up, the moral compass... is coming from
the mother or the grandmother or the sister in
the house, not from the men because they're not
around. So if I want to pass on the torch and
I want to have a... community that fosters environmental,
I like to call it environmental patriotism. I
like that. Yeah, it sounds cool. And it implies
ownership, right? Yes, absolutely. It's a national
park. Or investment. Yeah. It's not a private
exclusive park. It's a national park. It belongs
to the people. So they must take responsibility.
They must foster. Patriotism. But there's no
doubt that women bring a set of values into the
conservation arena. All the men in my 30 years
that I've been there, we're interested in the
helicopters and the four by fours and the guns
and it's so cool man and the badges and it really
is freaking cool. And if I get a guy in that
doesn't find that cool, he's in the wrong damn
job. Because that's half of the reason why you
should want to get it. The other half is because
you want to save nature and shit. You can do
that by recycling too. On that point, there are
plenty of good... male rangers out there and
all of that. But the approach to the Black Mamas,
I think, is really unique because you're capitalizing
on that unique cultural position that women have
in African cultures. And you're thinking beyond.
You've got them out on patrol. And we're going
to talk in a second about the things that they
do, like their particular tasks. You've talked
a little bit about it, but I want to go more.
You know, there's a bigger picture to this. You're
thinking black mambas, okay, they're gonna be
those bobbies on the patrol. They're eyes and
ears, they're reporting. They're being seen,
which is a deterrent in and of itself. But they're
also going back to their communities and advocating,
they're educating. They're maybe even like, shaming's
not the right word, but maybe they're discouraging
by... Leading by example. Yeah, leading by example
and vocally chastising people who maybe don't
do the right thing, right? Because that would
be definitely a maternal job within the family
structure. They're the ones that kind of lay
down the law, right? Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
Absolutely. So it's a multifaceted approach to
the black mambas have and a multifaceted benefit
that they have that's sometimes hard to measure.
Yeah. It's hard to measure. Yeah, but you kind
of inherently know it's a good thing. Yeah, you
know, the anecdotes that I have. Firstly, I haven't
lost a rhino on my land. I touch wood now because
it could happen whilst we're sitting here. You
should never brag about something like that.
But when was the last time you lost a rhino?
It's been 10 years. On Olifant's West? On Olifant's
West, where the Mamba started. That's incredible.
There are some there. We won't say how many.
We won't say how many. But yes, my land is going
to be somewhat saturated. And we are on the strong
public interface. And we have a compromised landscape
with mines and power lines. I make it sound very
attractive. It is. I've been to all of them.
It's cool. It's beautiful. Yeah, it's very cool.
But it's compromised compared to the other parks
directly adjacent to me. And there's no fences
between us, as you know. I should have lost all
my rhinos by now. Knowing what I know and having
managed all those other regions as the head warden
of that whole section of Balulay. Yeah, I should
have lost all my rhinos by now. Interesting.
And yet, I mean, you ask what do the Mambas do
every day and night? Yeah. They're up and down
the boundaries. They're shining spotlights in
windows. They're watching every vehicle that
comes along on the road. Right. Yeah. sitting
on all these high points with their spotlights
and their night vision goggles you know if they
find rhinos in a compromised spot like too close
to a road or whatever it might be they babysit
that thing nice until the sun comes up the next
day you know they love that job by the way yeah
yeah that's it they make little videos for me
and they chat away merely it's great We also
don't sneak around. So I told them, this is the
visible. Yes, be visible. Yeah, and make noise.
Yeah. Yeah. Because poachers are lazy. Yeah.
If it's going to be risky or a lot of work, they're
not going to do it. But, you know, I think another
one of the molds that we broke was we don't patrol
in a stochastic regime. What does that mean?
Randomly, you know, because you would you would
assume that if you wanted to catch criminal,
you must have a random patrol pattern and not
have a a routine patrol because they'll work
out what your routine is and then they'll come
in after your patrol's over. Right. We rather
looked at optimum hunting times because what
is aperture? It's a hunter. Yeah. Okay. When
is it an optimum time to hunt like a fisherman?
Full moons, stuff like that. Yeah. And when the
lodge vehicles are not on the landscape, you
know, so on and so on. So we closed, we packaged
it and said these are the optimum times that
aperture would... be successful as a hunter right
we close those windows now if he comes in so
that's a routine every time we are closing those
windows every day every night so if he wants
to come in and poach he has to go in sub -optimum
hunting time which means he has to either use
a torch or a flashlight as you guys call it torches
like a Yeah, it's a flashlight. Not the flaming
torch, but a flashlight. Exactly. March on the
castle with your torch. They'll have to use a
torch, otherwise they can't see a bloody thing.
Just stumble around. Craig, please speak English,
okay? On this podcast, you need to speak English.
I'll speak English for you. I speak American
English. Yes, exactly. If you say aluminum, we're
done. and lumenuminum. Oh my god. Okay, I'm sorry,
I interrupted your old terrain of thought. No,
no, I'm on a rant. You know, so if you close
those optimal hunting times, you force them into
the sub -optimal times, they have to expose themselves.
Risky. You know, or very risky and hide you to
a criminal, make it risky. Yeah, they're lazy.
Absolutely. And the landscape is not compromised
and they will go home empty handed. Yeah. and
they'll do that once or twice and realize that
this is an unprofitable pursuit. Exactly. I like
it. I mean, yeah, some of the things I had written
down here, you know, they do kind of classic
foot patrols during the day, night vehicle patrols.
You've mentioned that. Another thing that struck
me, I looked at the website, you know, and I
kind of forget about this, because every ranger
in Africa does this. And in the United States,
we don't. Our park rangers just never deal with
this. If they do, it's very rare. But snare sweeps.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Snaring is a real problem. Oh,
man. It's so bad. Yeah. This is the new thing
for poaching, is the freaking snares. And I know
they're not new, new. Yeah, but I mean is it
still mainly for bushmeat? Yeah. Yeah, and it
is describe what snaring is because Americans
Americans aren't gonna really know what that
is. It's a it's a piece of wire that they loop
around and tie a Slipknot on it, and then they
anchor it to a tree or a rock or whatever It
might be and even an animal passes through it's
either going to catch you on the leg or around
the neck or you know whatever it is, and the
thinnest piece of wire will kill the biggest
animal. Just as to cut through a kitty's tendon
or cut through a jugular or something, you know.
And it's a terrible, terrible way to go. And
normally they're targeting, you know, bushmeat
animals like warthogs, impala, that kind of thing,
right? But I've seen an elephant with, you know,
two and a half feet of its trunk cut off from
a snare that it got into. A lion can get into
it, even a rhino can get into it and injure themselves
so badly that they... That's the thing, it's
indiscriminate. Yeah, it's indiscriminate. They
die. I actually refer to it as a wall of death,
because they will block every path to a water
hole with snares. It's like a gill net, you know?
And then if the landscape is too hot, I don't
mean temperature -wise, I mean there's just too
much activity, then they just abandon them. Yeah,
they never come back to check them. Because it
costs nothing. Right. You know? It's not like
your rifle. You're going to go back to get your
rifle. Yeah, exactly. You know? But the snares,
they just abandon them. Yeah. They can get that
wire anywhere off your fence, you know? So then,
for years, that bloody wall of death is sitting
there and catching everything from a scrub hair
to a rhino, man. They're walking up with a jewelry.
I call it a jewelry. You know, you see them wearing
a bangle or wearing a necklace or what have you.
That's our biggest coup. With the mambas, by
the way. Yeah, they go out and look for snares
and pull them out. Their motto is, find the snare
before the animals do. Yes. And they're bloody
good at it. And it's like a treasure hunt for
them. Oh, it's hard. It's hard to spot a snake.
Yeah. I go and see them. I can't either. I'd
go out on some snares. I'll get caught in them.
I have to call for help. I can't tell you how
many snares I walked past and the ranger behind
me caught. And I'm like, what in the heck? How
did you see that? It's incredible. But that's
our biggest coup because we've dropped the bush.
meat poaching in our area by almost 90%. Nice.
Yeah. In fact, I think the last animal I had
in a snare was a young zebra more than 400 days
ago. And yes, it was an everyday event. That's
awesome. Yeah. I want to bring this. I think
the Black Mamas are an amazing thing. What's
your retention rate? You say you're going 100%.
You're going for people who retired. So the Black
Mamas I met the first time I met you, which I
think was 2015, they're still there. They're
all sergeants or master sergeants now. That is
amazing. They've done very well. You'll actually
meet, you won't unfortunately, but when we go
to Yellowstone, Wyoming. the one it's both of
them that you will talk to you've met you the
last time you were awesome yeah yeah i you know
uh we are going to interview uh one or both of
the rangers that are traveling with you they
were going to be here today but unfortunately
they got hung up they're still in they're on
travel on route now i think okay uh and that's
going to be we're going to we're going to dial
in oh boy Oh, there's an O. It's an O at the
end. I didn't have my reading glass. There's
so many consonants and very few vowels in that
word. Nkatiko. Nkatiko Mazimba. And then who's
the other ranger? Collet Ngobeni. Both are sergeants,
senior sergeants, actually. And they remember
me. Oh, yeah. That's awesome. They remember Mike,
as well. They've got a really good memory. You
know, if I see somebody on that landscape, here's
the thing with doing the Bobby on the beat style,
patrols. I've been there 20 years and then I
see a car coming down the road and I have to
phone or call on the radio and say, who's that?
And they'll say, no, that's Mrs. Jones. She's
going to town. Every Monday she goes to town
at this time to have tea with Mr. Jones or whatever.
And you don't remember. I don't have a cooking
clue who that is. But that's why it's really
important for them to build up that institutional
knowledge of their beat. Imagine if I was switching
around and you know a lot of other ranger stations
will change around randomly so that the poachers
don't get friendly with the Rangers and vice
versa, you know, but for me it has to be consistent
Yeah, I need consistency the downside to that
is you lose kind of an institutional knowledge
of what's going on by the Ranger on the Ranger
Yes, like the Ranger knows that's mrs. Yes versus
So they're not wasting their time on us. I know.
But you know, imagine if, because to, you know,
Ed, our biggest problem with rhino poaching is
corruption. You asked that question right in
the beginning. Why did it start up again? You
know, and you've got to ask yourself another
question. Why is it only in the Kruger National
Park? Well, is it though? Well, there's no other
national park that has been targeted. What about
across, what's the park over in Mozambique? That's
part of the Kruger system. Yeah. Okay. its open
system. Yeah, that's interesting. So you're saying
that the poaching is heavier in Kruger than it
is because of the corruption. And it's an elephant
in the room. Nobody wants to talk about it. It
makes me very unpopular, but somebody has to
say it. The corruption is killing the wildlife.
It's leaving our borders because of corrupt border
control officials. It's being poached because
of corrupt rangers and their senior managers.
You know, the police are losing dockets or just
not being interested. The whole thing is a bundle
of, we all know South Africa has got a problem
with corruption. Yes. We will win the corruption
Olympics. And we will take the gold, silver,
and bronze. I don't know about that. There's
some countries in southern Africa that might
give you a run for your money. You're right,
but even if we don't win the gold, silver, and
bronze, we'll probably take them anyway. You'll
be like, oh, there you go. There you go, you
will take them anyway regardless of whether somebody
beats you yeah, that's you know It's worth talking
about because I was there for only you've been
there a long time your whole life I was only
there for five years and I dealt with corruption
every day and I was a federal law enforcement
officer from the United States and they knew
I was a federal law enforcement from the United
States and I still had to Deal with it. Yeah,
you know when I was trying to to collaborate
with a law enforcement officer in South Africa
or Mozambique or Botswana, you know, Botswana
and Namibia are a little better, but you know,
Zimbabwe, you know. Oh man, it's a pandemic in
sub -Saharan. You always have to be aware. that
it could come into play, right? And that's not
something I was used to before I worked overseas.
And you know, and there's a big difference between
the private sector and the public sector. So
my ranges, and I've got my armed response to
back the Mambas up, you know, I can't just leave
them to the wolves. No, I mean, that's why eyes
and ears are there to call if they see something.
Absolutely. But my investment goes into the Mambas,
the armed guards. Yeah, exactly. You know, I've
got a handful of armed guards now where it used
to be majority. armed interest in one or two
admin offices, you know, it's the other bar graph
is totally different. But what I was going to
tell you is that the integrity and the accountability
in the private sector is 10 times higher than
it is in the public sector, because my members
volunteer for polygraph tests every year. Nice.
Yeah, they're doing them now. Nice. Actually,
whilst I'm sitting here hiding, because I'm scared
I'll get caught. You're conveniently gone during
lie detector week. Is that what I'm hearing?
Very conveniently. But don't worry, when I get
back I'll have to do it. It's not, yeah. You
have secrets that are not related to rhino poaching.
That's true, absolutely. Don't open that closet.
All those skeletons that will come falling out.
And you pay, the black mambas are paid, right?
Paid well, very well, because I want this to
be a career choice. Which brings me to, I think,
tell us more about the the TransFrontier Africa
NGO and how do you raise money to pay your mambas?
Yeah, thanks Ed for asking that question. I dance
under a street light in the little town of Huitzpirit.
It's hard, it's one of the toughest things is
to raise the money for this, because we made
a deal with Ulifant's West many years ago, when
they appointed me as the warden there, 20 years
ago, I made them a deal that I would take them
away from trophy hunting, because... I believe
trophy hunting is stimulating the, or muddying
the waters with the local community as to what
is right and what is wrong. Yep, how can a white
guy come in and kill an elephant and I can't?
Yeah, I get it, I get it. If I'm going to do
this job, and I want to protect this wildlife
from poaching, I have to stop the trophy hunting.
And I must have a non -consumptive industry,
so I have a tourism industry with 14 commercial
lodges, very high -end commercial lodges, you
know, the freaking five stars, six stars, that
kind of thing on the landscape. That's... that's
what keeps the landscape going. But for the things
like the Black Mambas, and you know we've got
the Bush Babies program, so the Mambas are teaching
in schools, and they've got 2 ,000 kids, 11 primary
schools, full -time resource center, they've
got scout troops running in the communities,
anything to keep the kids engaged. That's what
you're calling the Bush Baby program? Yeah, we
call that the Bush Babies, yeah. Bush Babies,
a little tiny little cool little. Absolutely,
it's a little primate. It's a little primate,
yeah. It is, yeah. Cutest animal in the world.
We don't want anybody to know how cute they are,
because they'll start trafficking in them. If
they aren't already. So yeah, okay, so the Bush
Babies is kind of an offshoot of the Black Mambas,
but it's focused on childhood education. That's
right. Okay. Maybe Katie, you're gonna talk about
that? Yeah, yeah. We'll get Katie on here. We'll
get her on here in a second. Anything you do
in this world should be measured. Otherwise,
you can't change anything. How do you know if
you're being effective by deploying the black
mambas, for example? I know because I track their
performance and I will go out and let off a gunshot
at nighttime and see how they respond. We will
lay tracks down with a flip -flop on the end
of a pole as we drive and wait for them to detect
them and respond. I know what their detection
rates are. I know what their freaking reporting
status is, whatever. Their response, everything.
You have to measure, I even take snares that
they've collected, put a little dot of nail varnish
on it, and then I can hide the snares all over
the landscape again, like a poach. And then I
can use a clever little statistical model to
see what the rate of detection on snares is.
Nice, look at you. Which is why they go back
three times to one place, because you're missing
a lot. If they find one snare, you must know
there's three, minimum. So anyway, anything you
do, you have to be able to measure whether you're
being successful or not. And it's the same with
the Bush Babies program. Otherwise, I'm taking
donor funding and I'm flinging it down a big
hole while I'm entertaining a bunch of kids with
soccer matches and puppet shows. Am I changing
perceptions? Am I changing value systems? Am
I actually being effective in any way? So that's
why the partnership that we have with the Living
Desert, where we're sitting now, and Katie, it's
so critical because they have the skills. She's
a scientist and she comes out and she's developed
this fantastic protocol and she'll tell you all
about it if you ask her nicely. Yeah, let's bring
Katie in real quick. Let me turn your mic on
here, Katie. Give me a testing one, two, three
here. Nope. Okay, so also with us, so we mentioned
is Katie Shaw from the Living Desert. She's a
conservation social scientist out here. Welcome,
Katie. Thanks for Joining us at the last minute
and unexpectedly you were not prepared for this
were you not at all, but thanks for having me
I appreciate it. No, it's great. It's a great
addition. Tell me about or tell us about the
living desert. What is it? And I'm sure I didn't
describe it right. No, it's a zoo and botanical
garden in Southern California. But we have a
whole conservation department. So we do conservation
off grounds at various sites around Southern
California and then with partners across Southern
and Eastern Africa. And as Craig mentions, a
newer project in Mongolia. Cool. Boy, I'd love
to talk to you about Mongolia sometimes. Yeah,
all the species there So how does the living
desert get itself connected to trans frontier
Africa and this crazy job? We've been partnered
for what eight years now, I believe it's yeah,
it's been quite a long partnership. We've done
two social impact studies on the black mambas
and bush babies programs in local communities.
And then more recently, we did a my Colleague
Dr. James Danoff -Berg and I did a social science
workshop where we teach foundational social science
skills and tools and helped the Bush babies educators
create evaluations for their environmental education
program. We wanted to make sure that We weren't
just measuring if the kids were able to recite
facts that they had picked up, but make sure
they were having real impacts. Are they changing
attitudes? Are they changing behavioral intentions?
What are the actual impacts that this program
is having? Very cool, so yeah. So Living Desert
is able to help Craig kind of with some of the
things he was talking about with measuring success
and whether or not, how things are working, right?
Yes. What about financially. Is there any connection
there? Do you assist with some of the... Yeah,
we're part of the Black Mamba Alliance, which
is a network of largely zoos, but some other
organizations that are regular funders of the
Black Mambas and help provide salary funding
for Black Mambas. Very, very cool. Okay. And
how often have you been to Olefans? I've been
out there twice. It's a cool place. It's amazing.
Yeah, very cool. Great. Is there anything that
you want people to know about the living desert
or how my listeners can, you know, visit here?
It's Palm Desert, California, which is near Palm
Springs, right? It's open to the public. Yep.
Come see us if you're in the area. We're a really
neat place. Have a fantastic... habitats and
animals here and then again do a lot of conservation
work and coming to visit us supports that and
helps us support our other partners like Transfrontier
Africa. Fantastic. I think, you know, I want
to raise something with both you guys real quick
and then we'll close it out. We'll actually close
it out with both. We'll close out with Craig,
but give both of you a chance to talk about this.
I want to know kind of from your perspective,
you know, I have listeners all over the world
actually, a lot in Africa, but most of them are
from the US or North America anyway. What can
an American do to help, you know, support conservation
in Southern Africa or support the black mambas
or what you guys are trying to do? I'll start
with you, Katie. Sure. I mean, of course, any
financial support is a huge support. There's
never -ending costs that come with running programs
like the Black Mambas, all of the gear, the equipment,
the patrol vehicles that they need, but also
for the Bush babies as well. But beyond that,
spread the word, spread awareness, talk to your
friends and family. Make sure you know what you're
buying when you shop, so you are not inadvertently
supporting any illegal trafficking. And yeah,
just become an informed citizen. Yeah, awesome.
That's a great message. Craig, what are your
thoughts on the same question? Yeah, thanks.
It's a question we get asked quite a lot. And
I always say, everybody has a responsibility
to be a conservationist. And that means you must
make a sacrifice of some sorts. You either sacrifice
your time or you compromise your lifestyle or
you donate something to whatever project it is
that stimulates you. But we all have that obligation.
We are users of this planet, occupants of this
planet. So if somebody's living in the United
States and you find the Black Mamba program,
and we do live 100 % off donations, we have no
other source of income. So yeah, I would say
reach out. You can donate through our partners,
like the Living Desert, for example. You know,
they've been incredibly good to us. Rhino Mercy
is another one. In fact, my directors are from
the United States. Dr. Tom Tochtemann is in Seattle.
Awesome. Yeah, and he should be here, but he's
not because he's having an operation. We've been
friends for years. He was the guy that sat with
me at the fire and drank all my rum. and came
up with the idea of the Black Mambas. Together,
both of us. And Captain Morgan said there were
three of us. Yeah. Very cool. And he's the director
of the company. So I want to tell a funny story.
Not a funny story. Actually, this is not a funny
story. It was a very important story to me in
my career, and it relates to Africa. You know
when I of course when I was a special agent I
liaisoned with a lot of different law enforcement
agencies all over the world and all over the
United States and one of the meetings I was at
once I was with a supervisory law enforcement
officer from the state of New York and He was
in charge of their undercover unit or their special,
you know investigations unit and at the time
their officers were going into downtown New York
City and they were finding all these shops that
were selling elephant ivory. And it's illegal
to sell elephant ivory in the state of New York.
So aside from what the federal law is, it's a
violation of New York law to do that. So they
were making these cases of elephant ivory in
downtown New York City. And what was important
to me about this story is I think it was a state
legislator, you know, an elected lawmaker from
the state of New York, or maybe it was somebody
from the Wildlife Commission, or somebody who
was above this wildlife officer, really questioned
him at a public meeting. Like, why are our officers
spending time on African elephant ivory? Why
aren't you out there? Wow. Yeah, why aren't you
enforcing laws related to species that are native
to New York? And this officer, he didn't miss
a beat. He responded to that person who outranked
him by quite a bit. He said this. He said, sir,
in Africa, there are rangers in the field right
now, you know, risking their lives to protect
elephants and rhinos and penguins and whatever.
And there are rangers being killed every day
in that pursuit. And I'll be damned if the people
of New York are gonna contribute to that. Fantastic.
Yeah. Give that man a beer. Or how about a Captain
Morgan? Or a Bells. No, but that's exactly the
attitude we should be adopting. Yeah, think globally.
It's a global problem. Sure. Yeah. Because we
would want them to do the same. you know, we
had an issue with, you know, selling bald eagles
in Pretoria, we would want some help, right?
Yeah, I know that gives me chills, actually.
Yeah, me too. Good for that guy. I'll tell you,
I never forgot it because often we do get questioned
about why does the United States care about rhinos?
They don't live in the United States. Because.
Because you guys are the leaders of the first
world anyway, you know, and you can't hold that
position. and try to influence global policy
and what have you, and then turn a blind eye
to that kind of stuff going on. You can't cherry
pick. You know, it's all or nothing. I'll tell
you another story. When I was in Africa, if you're
in a room of Africans and you say, hey, how many
people have come to the United States? Very few
people will raise their hands. You know, you
might be the only one in the room. Not very many.
If you say, how many people would like to come
to the United States? Everybody. Everybody. And
then I say, if you do come, would you like me
to take you to Yellowstone National Park to see
a grizzly bear in the wild? How many people would
like to do that? Everybody, right? Yeah. Same
is true if you were to talk to a group of Americans
and say, have you ever been to Botswana or South
Africa? Probably a few people would raise their
hand. Would you like to go? Everybody would.
While you're there, would you like to see a rhino
in the wild? Everybody. So we protect these animals
not only for our own citizens, but for people
in other parts of the world, because we want
them to come to our country and spend money to
see these animals. It meant we're a global community
now. It sounds like a baloney kind of kumbaya
thing, but it's true. It is true. We are a part
of a global community. We share resources. We
sell things to each other. We have moral obligations.
It doesn't have to even be a legal obligation.
It's still a moral obligation. And thinking like
a black mamba, you're thinking five, six steps
down the road. Of course, it benefits people
of the United States to have wild rhinos, just
as it benefits people in South Africa to have
wild grizzly bears. You know, the Rangers, you
touched on something that's very close to my
heart. The Rangers, they deal with the level
one criminals every day. They're not dealing
with the syndicates, the mules, the couriers,
whatever. they work under the worst possible
conditions you can imagine and All they can do
is buy time Mm -hmm for the species that they're
protecting right the real changes are going to
happen At the level that you are with us fisheries
and wildlife at political intervention level
You know cross -border trade agreements and that
sort of thing the rangers every day when they
wake up they're buying time for those animals
and it's the world's got to catch up they can't
do it like that forever it's ridiculous yeah
You know, help them out, you know, throw them
a bone, you know what I mean? Yes. And hey, maybe
maybe we should close it up with a African proverb
that's actually listed on your website. And I
heard many times and you will have heard many
times. But, you know, if you want to go fast,
go alone. And if you want to go far and go together,
it applies all over the world. Absolutely. That's
pretty good. Well, listen, Katie Shaw, thanks
for joining us. Craig Spencer. I have been looking
forward to this interview for so long. I am just
so excited that we got to see each other again
and have you on this show. It's going to be one
of the most popular episodes I think so far.
Thank you so much. If anybody is interested in
learning more about the living desert or transfer
into your Africa. You can reach out to me through
my website at naturessecretservice .com and I'd
be happy to put you in touch with Craig and or
Katie so we can do that easily. Thanks everybody
for tuning in. We'll see you next time. Thank
you very much, Ed. See you in the bush next time.
Yes, we'll see you in the bush soon I hope. I
hope so too. Okay, take care everybody. Nature's
Secret Service is written and produced by me,
Ed Newcomer. and is co -produced by the DHTV
team here at California State University Dominguez
Hills. Follow us on social media and connect
with us online at naturessecretservice .com.