WEBVTT

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If you want to learn more about the topics of

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today's episode, visit the podcast website at

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naturessecretservice .com. Thanks for listening.

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This is Nature's Secret Service, the podcast

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that puts you in the room with the men and women

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of wildlife law enforcement. I'm your host, Ed

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Newcomer, and today we have a really cool guest,

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a friend of mine for a long time. His name is

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Craig Spencer. Craig is the founder and director

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of the NGO called Trans Frontier Africa, which

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is based at Oliphant's West Nature Reserve in

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South Africa. It's part of a larger coalition

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of private nature reserves making up the greater

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Kruger area, which borders and buffers Kruger

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National Park in South Africa. He also served

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as the head warden of Beloulé Reserve for many

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years and he remains a warden of Oliphant's West.

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Craig is a unique character. He's been a champion

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of engaging local communities. in taking an active

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role in managing the resources and environment

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that are important to them. Among his initiatives

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has been the formation of the Black Mambas, among

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many others that we're going to talk about today.

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But let me welcome Craig Spencer to the podcast.

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Craig, thanks for being here. Absolute pleasure,

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Ed. Good to see you again. Yeah, fantastic. We

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were just kind of reminiscing before we started

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recording and realized it's been a few years

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since we saw each other. Craig and I actually

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met while I was a special agent with the US Fish

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and Wildlife Service and I was actually based

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in southern Africa. My remit or my area of responsibility

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was basically these nine countries in southern

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Africa including South Africa. So I was very

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in tune with what was going on in terms of elephant

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rhino poaching, pangolin poaching out there in

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the Kruger area and Craig and I met fairly early

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in my time there and then We stayed in touch.

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But I do have to say, to get an idea, if you're

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from the US and you haven't been to South Africa,

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Kruger National Park is huge. It's the size of

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the state of New Jersey, basically. But surrounding

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the park, at least primarily on the west side,

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the east side would be Mozambique, but on the...

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West Side, there are a number of private game

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reserves that kind of buffer the park, right?

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And Olavance West is one of those. And these

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are large reserves. And for the average American

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who's used to our national park system, these

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are private reserves that have lodges and tourist

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activities available. But they also have the

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usual gamut of big game wildlife living on those

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reserves. And in many cases, correct me if I'm

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wrong, Craig, there's actually, the fences are

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down between the reserves and the park. There's

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no fences in between. Yeah. So wildlife, elephants,

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lions, leopards, rhinos can move freely between

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the park and some of these private reserves.

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So there's a very... important shared interests

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between the reserves and the national park in

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terms of conserving wildlife and stopping wildlife

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trafficking. So anyway, first time I met Craig,

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he comes rumbling down the road in this unbelievably

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beat up, beat up Land Rover Baki, which again,

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for Americans, a Baki is a pickup truck, and

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jumps out and here's this young guy with a charming

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accent. messed up hair, windblown hair, tanned

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skin, and the first thing he does, he pulls out

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a pipe. I'm not allowed to smoke in here, unfortunately.

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There's rules. No, but right in front of us,

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he's got his little tobacco pouch with his pipe

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sticking out of it, and he grabs a puff wherever

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he can. But I got to tell you, Craig, when you're

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in the United States, you probably discovered

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this already, but where are you from originally?

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You're a Brit, right? My family is English, and

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I was born in Botswana. we moved on to South

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Africa. I'm the last man standing there from

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our family. Everybody else has moved back overseas.

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You are kind of the classic, like, cut from another

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era of, like, the British ex -pat living in Africa.

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You've got the whole package. And when you come

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here in the States, you have to know that if

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you speak with a British accent and you smoke

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a pipe and you talk about African wildlife, people

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are going to believe everything you say. This

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is good to know. Everybody who's interested in

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wildlife in the States will instantly love you

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just as I did. So anyway, I, we, you and I hit

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it off pretty quickly and I really admire what

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you're doing there. So let's stop talking about

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me. Let's talk about you. Tell us a little bit

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about these private reserves. Like how big is

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Oliphant's West and what kind of animals do you

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have living there? So yeah, that's a Exactly,

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like you said before, the Kruger National Park

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is about 430 kilometers long from north to south.

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But at its widest point, it's only 60 kilometers,

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which is a short breeze for an elephant to walk

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through the night. And we have this hard public

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interface with the agricultural sector and the

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tribal villages and whatever, right on that western

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boundary. And that public interface, that's where

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you get all these human -wildlife conflict issues,

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elephants breaking out, raiding crops, lions

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going out and eating cattle. It was a good move

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to expand the park, to absorb a lot of those

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old agricultural holdings and include them into

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the park. So, you know, it was very easy as well.

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You take the fences down and the animals just

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come and occupy those landscapes. So, yeah, 20

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years later, we have everything from, like you

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said, crocodiles in the rivers, hippos in every

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dam, elephants, lions, cheetahs from time to

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time, wild dogs, you know, it's a plethora of

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the most amazing, iconic species in Africa. The

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parks themselves, There's five basic units, and

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that's into a cluster where we are. Wow, how

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big is that? I mean, the part that I'm responsible

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for is about 25 ,000 acres. And then on the other

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side, so we've got two landscapes that we manage,

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and on the other side, it's similar, so you could

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say about 50 ,000 acres in total. And it works

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on the federal system, because it's too big.

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You know, you can't have like a... a principality

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running the show that you actually have to have

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a federal system broken into bite -sized chunks

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with a common management objective, common management

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plans, standard operational procedures, and cross

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-border protocols as well. We're pursuing, whether

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it's a wounded elephant that we have to dart

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to take a snare off its foot or... a rhino that's

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been shot or a poacher that'd be chasing, we

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have to have cross -border protocols to say,

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we're moving into the next area, can the next

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warden take over in the next warden and so on.

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Interesting. And you're talking about these,

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that you're describing as federal, these areas

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are just different areas broken up within all

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the fence, or are you talking about the neighboring?

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No, Woolly Funds would be one state. Gotcha.

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Basically, yeah. And then the other private reserves

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would be the others. Correct, yeah. And then

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of course too, because there's no fence between

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you and Kruger National Park, you probably have

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to have operating protocols with sand parks,

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which operates. That's right. They're kind of

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the big brother. They're the federal agency.

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Yeah, they're the government agency. That's right.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's what I was going

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to talk about next is, you know, so because the

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wildlife moves back and forth and, you know,

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poaching has touched South Africa, all of Africa,

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but South Africa in particular with regard to

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rhinos and other species, you're in a tough spot

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because you're a private reserve. But you don't

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have government authority. There's no law enforcement

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authority given to the Rangers at Olefants West

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or any of the other private reserves, correct?

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That's right. It's a big challenge. Yeah, but

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normally these parks, these reserves do have,

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obviously they have patrol Rangers who are armed

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usually, yeah? Yep. So it puts them in a tough

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spot, right? Because they're just like a private

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security guard. And South African laws with regard

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to self -defense and things can be a little bit

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tricky. Sometimes, in my experience, South African

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police tends to show up and make arrests first

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before they make any inquiries about justifiable

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self -defense or anything like that, right? Very

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true. Let's talk now before we jump into forming

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the Black Mambas and what they are and why you

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formed them. Let's make sure everybody kind of

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understands what the conservation issues are

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facing all of southern Africa. But Kruger and

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the private reserves, including Olifant's West,

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you mentioned rhinos and elephants. So let's

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hear from you. I know what the situation is with

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rhinos. I think most of my listeners will know

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that it's an issue. What's going on with rhinos,

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and also elephants, and other species in your

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area? You know, Ed, if you think back to those

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times when it was critical, you know, pre -COVID,

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we could say. Yeah. And when I started as a warden,

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I've been 20 years in that landscape. I came

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from a government agency before, so it was really

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hard to adjust to the public sector, I mean,

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the private sector, where we no longer had any

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authority. Yeah. Where did you work before? In

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the Western Cape. OK. anti -poaching law enforcement.

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And so it was really, it was a tough adjustment

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to come into the private sector and suddenly

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find that you actually don't have any authority

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anymore to implement the legislations and the

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rules of engagement don't even exist for you.

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So when we lost our first rhino around about

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2010. And it was a rude awakening for us. We

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woke up one day and we discovered that our entire

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law enforcement capacity was a guy on a bicycle

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with a stick, you know. Yeah, that was it. His

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name was Derek Amnesi. He rode around in this

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bicycle, very proud of himself, slipped under

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every tree, you know, because there was actually

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nothing going on. Right. You know, we were managing

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the park as a It was ecological management. So

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we were opening and closing water holes, improving

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grazing capacity, attracting animals in, doing

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game counts, et cetera. The next thing you know,

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we stumbled upon a rhino carcass. We realized

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that this thing's being poked. And when we started

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digging deeper... we recognized that we actually

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had more, you'll remember this from those days,

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we had more rhinos than we did elephants in the

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greater Kruger system in those days. But the

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elephants were being poached at a rate of 96

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a day for the ivory in Sub -Sahara Africa. Wow,

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I didn't know it was that high. Not just South

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Africa, but the whole of Sub -Sahara. And when

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they did the census in Mozambique, Though the

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great elephant senses 48 % of the animals that

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they counted with carcasses to use the elephants

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and that's I could see it from the deck of my

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camp mmm, and I thought man if this Problem persists

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across this border. Mm -hmm, and you know, eventually

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they're gonna run out elephants So then they

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will come across the border to our neck of the

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woods. We had 222 days of elephants if at that

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rate of expectation Yeah, okay. So was it about

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rhinos? Or was it about elephants or was it about

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everything? You know, we can't focus on one thing,

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but the rhinos gave us this great opportunity.

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It was really hard to generate sympathy for an

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elephant because they just keep raiding crops,

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you know, squashing people on bicycles and, you

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know, stealing your water and, you know, damaging

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things. Yeah, that's, you know, that's interesting

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because globally in the US, Canada, Western Europe,

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elephants are very charismatic, right? Yeah.

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to people who have to live with elephants in

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Botswana, Zambia. They can be a pain in the neck.

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They're really hard to stop. If they want to

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destroy your crop, they will. And a lot of these

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people, they're small. farmers and they rely

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on those crops. So yeah, locally there's not

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a lot of sympathy for elephants, but interesting,

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was that different for rhinos? It was. You know,

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suddenly the world went mental when the first

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rhino was shot. It was all over social media,

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it was a global phenomenon, and then we started...

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we started waking up to the fact that we were

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losing more than we were counting. So eventually

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it got to the point where we were losing more

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than three in a 24 -hour cycle, so it was nighttime

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poaching. Three rhinos every night were being

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poached. Three or more incursions a night onto

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the landscape. It was a terrible time of our

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lives, and this persisted for 10 years. And you

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weren't alone. I mean, that was kind of the average

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when I landed in Southern Africa in 2015. And

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yeah, right away, it was clear to me the average

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among the private reserves that had rhinos and

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Sandparks, Kruger, yeah, they were losing three

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to four a day. And that's not sustainable. Rhinos

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cannot, they can't outbreed that. Not a chance.

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And you know, this is not the first time this

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has happened to rhinos. In my conservation career

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spanning 30 years, this is the third time that

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rhinos have almost been poached to extinction.

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So it comes in waves. Interesting. You know,

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when I started, we had operation by Cornice Way

00:13:37.759 --> 00:13:41.259
back when at the what was it, the end of the

00:13:41.259 --> 00:13:44.720
80s, the early 90s. You know, all the same debates,

00:13:44.940 --> 00:13:49.120
all the same issues, all the same efforts made

00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:51.639
to de -horn and put bitumen on the stump so it's

00:13:51.639 --> 00:13:53.600
not attractive and la la la. And then it goes

00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:56.580
away. And that was when the Yemenis were selling

00:13:56.580 --> 00:13:58.700
the daggers with the handles as a rite of passage

00:13:58.700 --> 00:14:00.639
to adulthood, if you remember. Yeah, I was just

00:14:00.639 --> 00:14:02.720
going to ask you, what was the driver's then?

00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:04.820
It was a different driver, right? It was a different

00:14:04.820 --> 00:14:07.179
driver, yeah. Fascinating. That, to me, is what's

00:14:07.179 --> 00:14:09.629
really fascinating because I've always talked

00:14:09.629 --> 00:14:12.490
about wildlife trafficking kind of going in waves

00:14:12.490 --> 00:14:16.570
or cycles. And, you know, law enforcement tamps

00:14:16.570 --> 00:14:18.090
it down and it goes away for a while and then

00:14:18.090 --> 00:14:20.590
it comes back. Absolutely. Yeah. But what was

00:14:20.590 --> 00:14:24.590
so fascinating about rhinos is, yeah, the early

00:14:24.590 --> 00:14:28.490
drivers were there was some use of it for Asian

00:14:28.490 --> 00:14:31.370
medicinal, but the real driver was, yeah, those

00:14:31.370 --> 00:14:35.269
many special daggers where the handle had to

00:14:35.269 --> 00:14:37.620
be carved out of rhino horn. I remember that

00:14:37.620 --> 00:14:39.860
when I was in college, that was like all over

00:14:39.860 --> 00:14:41.840
the news. We should never forget that. Yeah.

00:14:42.100 --> 00:14:46.889
And that entire culture, if you like. has shifted.

00:14:47.110 --> 00:14:49.789
Yes. You know, I think it was when oil was suddenly

00:14:49.789 --> 00:14:53.029
a big deal for the Yemenese economy, and now

00:14:53.029 --> 00:14:55.230
it's probably yachts and Ferraris, you know,

00:14:55.350 --> 00:14:58.950
that are more important as a gift. I think, too,

00:14:59.049 --> 00:15:01.190
there was kind of an awareness that they may

00:15:01.190 --> 00:15:03.570
be contributing to the demise of a species, right?

00:15:03.629 --> 00:15:06.269
That was my impression. I like to think so as

00:15:06.269 --> 00:15:07.970
well, and they became part of, but I do think

00:15:07.970 --> 00:15:09.809
oil was catalytic because they actually became

00:15:09.809 --> 00:15:12.370
part of the global community then as well, you

00:15:12.370 --> 00:15:14.289
know, and the norms and standards in their society

00:15:14.289 --> 00:15:17.259
probably went through a shift. Interesting. But

00:15:17.259 --> 00:15:20.100
you're absolutely right. They saw the writing

00:15:20.100 --> 00:15:21.779
on the wall. They didn't want to be responsible

00:15:21.779 --> 00:15:24.600
for the extinction of a species. Yeah, yeah.

00:15:24.820 --> 00:15:26.559
Which is great. Or a number of species, because

00:15:26.559 --> 00:15:28.259
there's many rhinos. I mean, look what happened

00:15:28.259 --> 00:15:30.960
in Java. How many rhinos are left there? In Vietnam.

00:15:31.500 --> 00:15:34.179
There's 50. There's zero in Vietnam. Yeah. They

00:15:34.179 --> 00:15:36.899
went extinct. in my time as a conservationist.

00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:41.580
2010 was the last job in rhino in Vietnam. Scary

00:15:41.580 --> 00:15:45.320
stuff. But now, so this cycle, like you said,

00:15:45.480 --> 00:15:47.320
you've gone through several cycles, but this

00:15:47.320 --> 00:15:51.340
new cycle that emerged around 2010 to 2013 -ish,

00:15:52.059 --> 00:15:58.399
what was the driver of that? So the end user

00:15:58.399 --> 00:16:02.289
market, the consumer market is primarily in China,

00:16:02.470 --> 00:16:06.889
but then Vietnam became a new consumer. And it's

00:16:06.889 --> 00:16:10.110
not even part of their traditional lifestyle,

00:16:10.269 --> 00:16:14.289
medicine, whatever it is. But I think the smuggling

00:16:14.289 --> 00:16:17.370
route through Vietnam probably stimulated a market

00:16:17.370 --> 00:16:19.049
with the syndicates there, because they've got

00:16:19.049 --> 00:16:22.029
that porous border with China. So, yeah, and

00:16:22.029 --> 00:16:26.330
now we sit with this, not just one cultural...

00:16:27.429 --> 00:16:30.230
traditional use that we have to try and get a

00:16:30.230 --> 00:16:32.750
handle on, we've now got this whole new market

00:16:32.750 --> 00:16:36.129
that's feeding the supply and demand chain. Exactly.

00:16:36.549 --> 00:16:39.129
And I think most people get confused, or a lot

00:16:39.129 --> 00:16:41.250
of people get confused, and they still think

00:16:41.250 --> 00:16:44.789
of it in terms of its value as an aphrodisiac

00:16:44.789 --> 00:16:47.929
or a medicine. That ain't really it. It's a little

00:16:47.929 --> 00:16:50.889
bit. But the big thing now is it's a status symbol,

00:16:51.009 --> 00:16:53.870
right? And they'll carve it into these elaborate

00:16:54.220 --> 00:16:56.940
what they call libation cups. It looks like a

00:16:56.940 --> 00:17:00.019
cup, but it's very intricately carved. Same with

00:17:00.019 --> 00:17:02.379
ivory. A lot of it is about status. It's carved

00:17:02.379 --> 00:17:05.859
into very almost, you know, pretty amazing pieces

00:17:05.859 --> 00:17:09.049
of art. But the reason you want it is not necessarily

00:17:09.049 --> 00:17:11.029
to consume it, it's to show the rest of the world

00:17:11.029 --> 00:17:13.190
how affluent you are. It is. It's like having

00:17:13.190 --> 00:17:17.150
the red Ferrari. Yes, exactly. You show your

00:17:17.150 --> 00:17:19.309
neighbors how important you are by having them

00:17:19.309 --> 00:17:21.750
over to dinner and they see a rhino horn libation

00:17:21.750 --> 00:17:25.730
cup on your mantle. You know, there's an interesting

00:17:25.730 --> 00:17:28.190
story. I know this is anecdotal, but way back

00:17:28.190 --> 00:17:33.009
when, whether this is a true story on urban legend

00:17:33.009 --> 00:17:35.680
or not, it's still worth telling. the first warden

00:17:35.680 --> 00:17:38.460
of the Kruger National Park, Stevenson Hamilton,

00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:41.480
I think his name was. And he had an audience

00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:46.079
with the royal family. And he was asked, is it

00:17:46.079 --> 00:17:49.299
true that Rhino Horn is an aphrodisiac? And he

00:17:49.299 --> 00:17:52.259
said, Madam, the only way that it will work is

00:17:52.259 --> 00:17:54.599
if you cut it into strips and use it as a splint.

00:17:56.960 --> 00:18:01.240
And he's right. I suppose they're the right shape.

00:18:06.500 --> 00:18:11.160
Yeah. That's a great story. But it's a false

00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:13.900
story. It's never been used as an aphrodisiac,

00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:16.240
ever. I don't know actually how that story started,

00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:18.119
maybe just because it looks kind of phallic.

00:18:18.200 --> 00:18:21.460
I don't know. And then it was kind of exacerbated

00:18:21.460 --> 00:18:24.660
in Vietnam, I think, because of some time around

00:18:24.660 --> 00:18:29.099
2010 -ish. a Vietnamese government official went

00:18:29.099 --> 00:18:31.039
public, claimed that he had cured his cancer

00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:35.059
by drinking rhino horn at Tincture. And then

00:18:35.059 --> 00:18:37.339
it just exploded for that reason too. So you

00:18:37.339 --> 00:18:39.740
have multiple threats to the horn or rhinos,

00:18:39.779 --> 00:18:42.059
which is really a bad combination. I mean, I've

00:18:42.059 --> 00:18:44.720
got a whole, you know, this whole supply and

00:18:44.720 --> 00:18:47.740
demand chain thing with like 22 ,000 white rhinos

00:18:47.740 --> 00:18:51.609
left. How could we possibly hope to meet the

00:18:51.609 --> 00:18:53.990
demand if we legalize the trade? I'm not sure

00:18:53.990 --> 00:18:55.730
if you're going to touch on trade at any stage.

00:18:55.849 --> 00:18:57.910
I would love to talk about the whole legalization

00:18:57.910 --> 00:19:00.170
thing, because that was something I fought hard

00:19:00.170 --> 00:19:02.789
against when I was based over in Africa. Absolutely.

00:19:04.250 --> 00:19:06.309
I envisioned we would be talking mostly about

00:19:06.309 --> 00:19:08.150
the Black Mamas today, but there's so much to

00:19:08.150 --> 00:19:10.190
talk about. There is. This is such a great topic.

00:19:10.390 --> 00:19:12.750
And it needs to be unpacked. It does. There's

00:19:12.750 --> 00:19:15.490
so many angles to this. And just on that trade

00:19:15.490 --> 00:19:17.990
issue, the people mustn't forget that in the

00:19:17.990 --> 00:19:21.730
mid -90s, it was in 96 or 98, when WWF convinced

00:19:21.730 --> 00:19:24.609
the Chinese Traditional Medicine Council to use

00:19:24.609 --> 00:19:28.069
the saiga antelope horn as a substitute for rhino

00:19:28.069 --> 00:19:31.250
horn in a last -ditch attempt to save the rhinos

00:19:31.250 --> 00:19:34.059
from poaching in those days. Okay, and there

00:19:34.059 --> 00:19:36.759
were two and a half million satyaga antelope

00:19:36.759 --> 00:19:39.519
on the Mongolian steppes on the russian steppes

00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:41.400
And it was the new science magazine. It's one

00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:44.619
of my Favorite quotes. It's a frightening quote

00:19:44.619 --> 00:19:47.319
the fastest extinction of a land mammal in the

00:19:47.319 --> 00:19:50.519
history of the world Not even a meteor strike

00:19:50.519 --> 00:19:54.720
Could cause the extinction An animal as fast

00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:57.720
as the consumers did wiping out that species

00:19:57.720 --> 00:20:00.099
Okay, they still relics or remnants of that's

00:20:00.099 --> 00:20:02.400
been this all conservation projects running around

00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:04.299
you guys are in Mongolia Sorry, I'm looking at

00:20:04.299 --> 00:20:07.299
Katie sitting on my left hand side Nobody else

00:20:07.299 --> 00:20:09.140
can see that. She's sitting over. Yeah. Yeah,

00:20:09.240 --> 00:20:11.059
I didn't I didn't introduce her yet I was gonna

00:20:11.059 --> 00:20:13.299
wait. She'll probably be on in a second. But

00:20:13.299 --> 00:20:16.640
yeah, Katie Shaw from The Living Desert is here

00:20:16.640 --> 00:20:18.980
and that's where we're recording today at a fabulous

00:20:19.579 --> 00:20:22.619
a fabulous zoo and garden out in Palm Desert,

00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:24.960
a place called Living Desert. They do amazing

00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:27.119
work out here. They have an amazing facility,

00:20:27.140 --> 00:20:29.259
and they've actually helped law enforcement in

00:20:29.259 --> 00:20:32.180
the past by taking seized animals, particularly

00:20:32.180 --> 00:20:34.559
reptiles. And continue to do so. And continue

00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:36.740
to do so. Absolutely. So Katie's here. She's

00:20:36.740 --> 00:20:39.180
listening. We're going to get her on the show

00:20:39.180 --> 00:20:41.819
here. Can you imagine? Can you imagine if you

00:20:41.819 --> 00:20:43.759
think you can meet the demand? Yeah. And you

00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:47.140
know, you want to stimulate the trade by legalizing,

00:20:47.140 --> 00:20:51.029
you know, the sale of stockpiles or 3D printed

00:20:51.029 --> 00:20:53.029
horns, and I've heard so many crackpot stories,

00:20:53.349 --> 00:20:56.309
you know. Imagine if, and as you said, it's a

00:20:56.309 --> 00:20:58.210
status symbol, so only the elite can actually

00:20:58.210 --> 00:21:01.009
afford it. Imagine if you have a population of

00:21:01.009 --> 00:21:05.390
1 .4 billion Chinese people, and 1 % of them

00:21:05.390 --> 00:21:09.349
can afford it. Now you make it available, so

00:21:09.349 --> 00:21:12.609
5 % can afford it. Exactly. My goodness. Exactly.

00:21:12.730 --> 00:21:16.009
Are we crazy? Yeah. It's a no brainer. And yeah,

00:21:16.009 --> 00:21:17.630
you're touching on two things that have always

00:21:17.630 --> 00:21:20.150
been really important to me. Like one, to me,

00:21:20.549 --> 00:21:23.289
it's the emerging, you know, affluence of China

00:21:23.289 --> 00:21:26.529
and Vietnam that are allowing this. And the populations

00:21:26.529 --> 00:21:29.109
there are so huge that even a small percentage

00:21:29.109 --> 00:21:32.490
of affluent or even just moderately, moderately

00:21:32.490 --> 00:21:35.450
affluent people could be disastrous if they get

00:21:35.450 --> 00:21:39.470
onto a particular fad or trend, right? Absolutely.

00:21:39.890 --> 00:21:43.720
And then It would be the extinction of the rhino.

00:21:44.220 --> 00:21:48.279
You couldn't farm them fast enough. No. Talking

00:21:48.279 --> 00:21:50.940
about the cap, there was a movement. Namibia,

00:21:51.019 --> 00:21:55.880
South Africa were two countries in favor of legalizing

00:21:55.880 --> 00:22:00.420
the trade in harvested horn that was taken humanely

00:22:00.420 --> 00:22:02.680
off of live rhinos that were held in captivity

00:22:02.680 --> 00:22:06.140
and the sale of stockpiles. And to me, I'm sure

00:22:06.140 --> 00:22:08.920
you're going to agree with this, Craig. Absolutely

00:22:08.920 --> 00:22:11.480
opposed to that because it is always cheaper

00:22:11.480 --> 00:22:14.319
to go poach an animal than it is to raise one.

00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:18.720
100%. And also remember that in traditional medicine,

00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:22.279
a farm -grown thing doesn't have as much voodoo.

00:22:22.460 --> 00:22:25.680
as a wild thing that's dodged lions and, you

00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:27.500
know, the person that had to harvest it dodged

00:22:27.500 --> 00:22:29.819
poachers, anti -poaching teams, bullets in the

00:22:29.819 --> 00:22:31.640
army and what have you. And, you know, we found

00:22:31.640 --> 00:22:33.799
towards the end when these stockpiles were leaking

00:22:33.799 --> 00:22:35.920
through, remember when they started on the dehorning

00:22:35.920 --> 00:22:38.559
of rhinos? And then there's huge hauls of 40

00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:41.000
plus horns who have been confiscated, being smuggled

00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:43.000
across borders. And our borders are porous, I

00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:44.079
mean, we're third world, you know, what do you

00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:47.549
expect? And that was my other argument. Legalize

00:22:47.549 --> 00:22:49.190
anything you like as long as you can control

00:22:49.190 --> 00:22:51.769
it and there is no evidence to suggest that a

00:22:51.769 --> 00:22:53.750
country like South Africa has got any integrity

00:22:53.750 --> 00:22:55.990
at their borders I'm sorry to say you know I

00:22:55.990 --> 00:22:58.269
mean just goes all the way up to the top So now

00:22:58.269 --> 00:23:00.849
they're confiscating these massive halls of horns

00:23:00.849 --> 00:23:03.670
that clearly come from dehorned rhinos somewhere

00:23:03.670 --> 00:23:07.190
so the poachers were shooting the wild rhinos

00:23:07.190 --> 00:23:09.670
and Then removing a tail or an ear or something

00:23:09.670 --> 00:23:12.589
to prove to the buyer that it's from a wild animal

00:23:12.589 --> 00:23:16.359
Interesting that the animal had to die for this

00:23:16.359 --> 00:23:18.240
horn to be produced, you know, sort of thing.

00:23:18.279 --> 00:23:21.059
So forget legalizing nonsense like that. It's

00:23:21.059 --> 00:23:23.579
not gonna work. Why do we keep making the same

00:23:23.579 --> 00:23:26.140
mistakes? Plus these stockpiles have actually

00:23:26.140 --> 00:23:29.279
led to deaths. I believe it was the Limpopo ranger

00:23:29.279 --> 00:23:34.839
station was robbed around 2015, 16 by some armed

00:23:34.839 --> 00:23:37.140
gunman just came in and killed all the rangers

00:23:37.140 --> 00:23:41.259
and stole every single elephant tusk and every

00:23:41.259 --> 00:23:43.200
single rhino horn that was in their stockpiles

00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:47.319
to sell. Yeah I mean so you know people that

00:23:47.319 --> 00:23:49.220
we haven't talked about this Craig the in you

00:23:49.220 --> 00:23:52.809
know the in sail point of a big rhino horn. In

00:23:52.809 --> 00:23:55.130
China Vietnam's going for a hundred hundred fifty

00:23:55.130 --> 00:23:58.569
thousand dollars US Maybe more now. I don't know.

00:23:58.569 --> 00:24:00.650
It's about twenty five to thirty five thousand

00:24:00.650 --> 00:24:03.890
per kg now per kg Yeah, so, you know how much

00:24:03.890 --> 00:24:06.509
I mean times that by twenty. Yeah, every the

00:24:06.509 --> 00:24:08.750
exchange rate is not it's it's a lot of money

00:24:08.750 --> 00:24:11.089
It's kill you kill you money for sure. Yeah,

00:24:11.109 --> 00:24:12.869
it's the kind of money people will kill you for

00:24:12.869 --> 00:24:15.170
and and it happens all the time in Africa People

00:24:15.170 --> 00:24:19.670
get killed over this stuff And one last thing,

00:24:20.250 --> 00:24:23.829
this whole issue on legalizing rhino horn trade

00:24:23.829 --> 00:24:28.289
for stockpiled rhino horn or a captively harvested

00:24:28.289 --> 00:24:31.309
horn where it can be the rhino's anesthetized

00:24:31.309 --> 00:24:32.930
and the horn's cut off because they do grow back

00:24:32.930 --> 00:24:38.920
because it's basically like a fingernail. Here's

00:24:38.920 --> 00:24:41.220
our first curse word of the day. Sidey's tried

00:24:41.220 --> 00:24:46.579
this bullshit. We've been very good so far. Yeah,

00:24:46.579 --> 00:24:49.359
we've been keeping it under control. Craig and

00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:52.640
I are used to letting the f -bombs fly. My mother

00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:57.299
would be proud. Yeah, you know, Sidey's tried

00:24:57.299 --> 00:25:00.940
this before where they allowed a sell -off of

00:25:00.940 --> 00:25:04.099
stockpiled ivory. And all it did was create a

00:25:04.099 --> 00:25:07.160
market. It created a market and it allowed for

00:25:07.160 --> 00:25:10.359
the laundering of poached ivory, because it's

00:25:10.359 --> 00:25:12.299
always cheaper to go kill an elephant than it

00:25:12.299 --> 00:25:14.880
is to kill a star box. How are you supposed to

00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:17.299
tell the difference? You can't. We've got to

00:25:17.299 --> 00:25:20.000
remember that these are syndicates. They're not

00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:22.079
just going to syndicate it. If they can buy up

00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:23.660
that stockpile, there's probably enough diamonds

00:25:23.660 --> 00:25:26.660
in the world to give every woman a handful. But

00:25:26.660 --> 00:25:29.740
we regulate the, we leak it onto the market to

00:25:29.740 --> 00:25:32.579
keep the price up. And that's exactly what they

00:25:32.579 --> 00:25:34.920
do with the rhino one. They would buy the stockpiles

00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:38.859
and they would regulate the price. There's nothing

00:25:38.859 --> 00:25:42.700
good about legalizing the sale of any wildlife

00:25:42.700 --> 00:25:45.799
product, unless you're the guy selling it, because

00:25:45.799 --> 00:25:47.400
you're the only one that's going to benefit.

00:25:49.579 --> 00:25:52.759
Exactly. You saw the biggest advocate of this

00:25:52.759 --> 00:25:56.019
in South Africa, John Hume. With his 2 ,000,

00:25:56.039 --> 00:25:57.960
whatever, runners under arrest. Guess where he

00:25:57.960 --> 00:26:01.440
is now? Sitting in the chookie. Exactly. John

00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:05.480
Hume, if listeners don't know, he was the largest...

00:26:06.220 --> 00:26:09.200
Largest private owner of rhinos. I think he had

00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:11.839
the largest private rhino herd. A very wealthy

00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:15.500
guy in South Africa. For a long time, everybody

00:26:15.500 --> 00:26:18.440
in law enforcement suspected him of being involved

00:26:18.440 --> 00:26:22.259
in selling his captive horns. He was investing

00:26:22.259 --> 00:26:24.240
a lot of money in trying to get the whole rhino

00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:27.539
horn trade legalized. smelled bad. He was arrested

00:26:27.539 --> 00:26:30.160
recently by South African police, charged with

00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:32.759
trafficking and rhino horns. No shocker. And

00:26:32.759 --> 00:26:34.960
you know what? It's not the first time. The little

00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:37.160
bugger just got off on the previous ones because

00:26:37.160 --> 00:26:39.519
of technicalities. Is that right? I didn't know

00:26:39.519 --> 00:26:41.400
that. Oh yeah. I didn't know that. Interesting.

00:26:41.799 --> 00:26:43.869
There's another... there's another rhino horn

00:26:43.869 --> 00:26:46.589
farmer too we could talk about but you know what

00:26:46.589 --> 00:26:48.349
that one's a little closer to home yeah yeah

00:26:48.349 --> 00:26:52.009
yeah i know i know and i i have a great story

00:26:52.009 --> 00:26:54.730
about that guy he tried anyway we won't get he

00:26:54.730 --> 00:26:57.029
tried he tried to meet with me once and convinced

00:26:57.029 --> 00:27:00.069
me to advocate for him and i smelled the rat

00:27:00.069 --> 00:27:03.750
on that one right away anyway uh let's back up

00:27:03.750 --> 00:27:06.480
now you you We've gotten a little bit off track,

00:27:06.500 --> 00:27:08.940
but I think it's a good discussion. But you mentioned,

00:27:08.940 --> 00:27:11.579
you know, where we were, where you were in 2010

00:27:11.579 --> 00:27:15.900
-13 is losing three rhinos a day in Oliphant.

00:27:15.900 --> 00:27:19.220
So that's unsustainable. One of the things, obviously,

00:27:19.220 --> 00:27:21.680
you're going to ramp up your law enforcement

00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:24.700
response, your patrols, your armed, all of that.

00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:26.980
But one of the things that you kind of hit on

00:27:26.980 --> 00:27:29.940
was this idea of forming the Black Mambas. What

00:27:29.940 --> 00:27:32.279
year did you form the Black Mambas? It was 2013.

00:27:32.460 --> 00:27:35.900
2013. So right, right. You know, things are going

00:27:35.900 --> 00:27:39.539
crazy with the rhinos getting killed. Tell us

00:27:39.539 --> 00:27:41.539
about the Black Mambas. What makes the Black

00:27:41.539 --> 00:27:46.140
Mambas unique? Oh, man. The Black Mambas was

00:27:46.140 --> 00:27:48.480
a concept that was born around that campfire

00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:50.599
where we stood up in my little camp on the hill.

00:27:50.640 --> 00:27:52.819
Yeah, yeah. And vast quantities of Captain Morgan

00:27:52.819 --> 00:27:54.720
as well, because he's kind of the inspiration

00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:57.000
behind everything. Craig, you're breaking the

00:27:57.000 --> 00:27:58.759
fundamental rule of what happens in the bush

00:27:58.759 --> 00:28:05.680
stays in the bush. But we recognize that using

00:28:05.680 --> 00:28:08.900
the old traditional techniques has never yielded

00:28:08.900 --> 00:28:12.619
the results. You know, you can't do away with

00:28:12.619 --> 00:28:15.039
it, but you know, what did we do whenever there

00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:17.200
was a crisis, we would go dust off our old army

00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:19.680
uniforms, take out our rusty old guns, paint

00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:22.119
our war paint and go chasing after the problem

00:28:22.119 --> 00:28:24.460
and try and shoot the problem away. Then all

00:28:24.460 --> 00:28:29.279
we did was divide. You know polarized communities,

00:28:29.500 --> 00:28:31.339
right? There's the people in the park and there's

00:28:31.339 --> 00:28:34.859
the people in the communities There's a massive

00:28:34.859 --> 00:28:37.940
fence now. There's more money spent on helicopter

00:28:37.940 --> 00:28:41.319
fuels at almost like an arms race, you know So

00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:43.980
we recognize that this was not appropriate and

00:28:43.980 --> 00:28:46.799
I also believe that we were destabilizing communities

00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:49.480
You bet, you know, yeah taking out the breadwinners,

00:28:49.480 --> 00:28:52.660
you know either locking up the the fathers or

00:28:52.660 --> 00:28:55.539
You know sending them in a body bag somewhere

00:28:55.539 --> 00:28:59.500
else Orphans, widows, it just gives the syndicates

00:28:59.500 --> 00:29:01.740
the upper hand. You know, the people start hating

00:29:01.740 --> 00:29:05.400
you. It says, anyway, we wanted a different approach

00:29:05.400 --> 00:29:08.859
and we wanted to build a different model which

00:29:08.859 --> 00:29:12.180
included that tier right at the bottom that the

00:29:12.180 --> 00:29:14.140
British policing model has got. The bobby's on

00:29:14.140 --> 00:29:17.119
the beat. The unarmed, they're everywhere. They

00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:20.500
cover a lot of ground. It's eyes and ears. You

00:29:20.500 --> 00:29:23.099
know, everywhere you go, you see a bobby. and

00:29:23.099 --> 00:29:25.279
you know they're just well spoken and they look

00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:27.759
good in their uniforms and tap you on the shoulder

00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:30.259
and ask you what you're doing here you know and

00:29:30.259 --> 00:29:34.259
you know when they ran out of policemen per capita

00:29:34.259 --> 00:29:36.839
whatever the ratio is they put cardboard cutouts

00:29:37.150 --> 00:29:40.369
In the UK? Yeah, in the supermarkets and what

00:29:40.369 --> 00:29:42.450
have you, because it still triggers that organ

00:29:42.450 --> 00:29:45.630
in your brain to say, hick, I was going to shoplift,

00:29:45.869 --> 00:29:47.869
but, you know, as a reminder that I probably

00:29:47.869 --> 00:29:50.410
shouldn't do that. Interesting. OK. We wanted

00:29:50.410 --> 00:29:52.690
to be visible. We wanted to saturate the landscape.

00:29:52.789 --> 00:29:55.029
We wanted to disrupt the landscape and we wanted

00:29:55.029 --> 00:29:57.650
to make it unprofitable for poachers to poach

00:29:57.650 --> 00:30:00.660
with a few that we had caught. In the beginning

00:30:00.660 --> 00:30:02.920
and there's another embarrassing thing it with

00:30:02.920 --> 00:30:05.259
everything you met my dog in those days the three

00:30:05.259 --> 00:30:08.380
-legged dog Oh, yeah, you lost the dog in the

00:30:08.380 --> 00:30:11.160
line of duty and then sorry crocodile ended up

00:30:11.160 --> 00:30:13.400
eating him I don't think I needed to know that

00:30:13.400 --> 00:30:15.799
I'm actually wearing his collar as bracelets

00:30:15.799 --> 00:30:17.980
now Whatever they asked me to take the wolf at

00:30:17.980 --> 00:30:19.480
the airport to say there's one thing you can

00:30:19.480 --> 00:30:21.880
never ask me I will do everything else for you

00:30:21.880 --> 00:30:24.240
You can even rub a glove me, you know, but I'm

00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:27.339
not taking these off good for you. Yeah anyway

00:30:27.549 --> 00:30:30.970
We got Belgian Malinois man trained in Germany

00:30:30.970 --> 00:30:33.410
by the German police for purpose hardcore. We

00:30:33.410 --> 00:30:36.910
have full night vision equipment We have helicopters.

00:30:36.910 --> 00:30:41.190
We have special forces, you know, we have laser

00:30:41.190 --> 00:30:43.789
dot sights We have everything a poacher is a

00:30:43.789 --> 00:30:46.819
guy with a pair of flip -flops. Yeah he doesn't

00:30:46.819 --> 00:30:49.619
even have a flashlight. He comes in with a rusty

00:30:49.619 --> 00:30:51.740
old gun with a compromised barrel because they

00:30:51.740 --> 00:30:53.859
weld an old shock absorber on the front as a

00:30:53.859 --> 00:30:56.680
silencer. So it compromises the sights, it compromises

00:30:56.680 --> 00:30:59.579
the accuracy, it compromises the velocity. The

00:30:59.579 --> 00:31:01.599
whole weapon is compromised. He might have three

00:31:01.599 --> 00:31:03.359
or four rusty old bullets in his pocket that

00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:05.680
are green from the sweat on his hands, and he

00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:07.980
sneaks around in the landscape, shoots a rhino,

00:31:07.980 --> 00:31:10.839
and goes out undetected. And with all the tricks

00:31:10.839 --> 00:31:15.640
in the book, we can't catch them. So the model,

00:31:15.849 --> 00:31:18.069
had failed you know the old traditional policing

00:31:18.069 --> 00:31:20.309
model or you identify crime then you identify

00:31:20.309 --> 00:31:23.130
criminal you pursue said criminal then you apprehend

00:31:23.130 --> 00:31:26.630
criminal and you try and prosecute criminal we

00:31:26.630 --> 00:31:29.849
failed on every one of those steps interesting

00:31:29.849 --> 00:31:32.589
lowest lowest detection rate of crime we might

00:31:32.589 --> 00:31:34.690
find a carcass two or three days later we sometimes

00:31:34.690 --> 00:31:36.910
never found them right until the white bones

00:31:36.910 --> 00:31:39.329
are shining when you do your annual aerial census

00:31:39.329 --> 00:31:43.970
you know to try and identify who done it you

00:31:43.970 --> 00:31:47.160
know three guys one gun Who are you gonna prosecute?

00:31:47.220 --> 00:31:50.460
We work on Roman Dutch law right mens rea criminal

00:31:50.460 --> 00:31:53.380
intent Stop a vehicle has got a rhino horn in

00:31:53.380 --> 00:31:55.680
the back. The guy says hey I was paid 50 bucks

00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:57.319
to pick these guys up on the side of the road

00:31:57.319 --> 00:31:59.359
I didn't ask what was in the bag. There's no

00:31:59.359 --> 00:32:02.119
criminal intent. It's so hard to get a prosecution.

00:32:02.279 --> 00:32:05.339
Why would you try? With such a day if you worked

00:32:05.339 --> 00:32:07.779
out the amount of rhinos that died to the amount

00:32:07.779 --> 00:32:10.839
of prosecutions that we had 56 rhinos had to

00:32:10.839 --> 00:32:13.980
die for a prosecution Wow, and then The president

00:32:13.980 --> 00:32:16.339
has a birthday and he releases all the criminals

00:32:16.339 --> 00:32:19.200
for his birthday present. You know, it's a stupid

00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:23.599
model. So why waste all the money on it? I don't

00:32:23.599 --> 00:32:25.920
say you shouldn't try. I'm just saying don't

00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:27.720
put all your hopes and dreams in that model.

00:32:28.759 --> 00:32:30.259
You gotta remember you're talking to a former

00:32:30.259 --> 00:32:31.960
federal agent. I'm all about law enforcement.

00:32:32.579 --> 00:32:35.859
So we want to do exactly, I know you'll understand

00:32:35.859 --> 00:32:38.680
this stuff, man. We wanted to displace the crime

00:32:38.680 --> 00:32:41.460
of rhinos and elephants and penguins and whatever

00:32:41.460 --> 00:32:42.980
else. I mean, everything gets stolen in the bush,

00:32:42.980 --> 00:32:45.839
even wood, you know? So we wanted to displace

00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:49.720
the crime off the landscape, firstly, and secondly,

00:32:49.880 --> 00:32:53.250
onto a different commodity. Cash in transit,

00:32:53.809 --> 00:32:56.450
vehicle theft, knocking off liquor stores, hijackings

00:32:56.450 --> 00:32:58.529
and what have you, because the public prosecutors

00:32:58.529 --> 00:33:00.369
know how to deal with that shit. And you know,

00:33:00.490 --> 00:33:03.269
and the police know how to get involved, and

00:33:03.269 --> 00:33:05.730
they've done it a hundred times. But if I phone

00:33:05.730 --> 00:33:07.190
a policeman in the middle of the night and I

00:33:07.190 --> 00:33:08.670
say, hey man, I've got a guy and I think he shot

00:33:08.670 --> 00:33:10.839
a rhino. Two days later, my dog sniffs out an

00:33:10.839 --> 00:33:13.180
old rifle lying under a tree. The next day, we

00:33:13.180 --> 00:33:15.980
find the rhino carcass. We try and get the ballistics

00:33:15.980 --> 00:33:18.740
matched up, you know? And then you stand in court.

00:33:19.099 --> 00:33:23.700
Five years later, you're standing in court and

00:33:23.700 --> 00:33:27.000
the defense attorney says, I read in the newspapers

00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:29.019
here that you had three and a half incursions

00:33:29.019 --> 00:33:32.519
a night, you know? This weapon was matched up

00:33:32.519 --> 00:33:35.099
to three or four different carcasses. Is it not

00:33:35.099 --> 00:33:38.150
possible? that another poaching group was on

00:33:38.150 --> 00:33:41.109
this landscape. You bet. Yeah, at the time, of

00:33:41.109 --> 00:33:43.490
course it is. Reasonable doubt. Absolutely. No

00:33:43.490 --> 00:33:47.210
case. Yeah. So why bother? Yeah, okay. So we

00:33:47.210 --> 00:33:49.190
saturated the landscape, we disrupted the landscape.

00:33:50.089 --> 00:33:54.569
I can't remember what your question was. Well,

00:33:54.970 --> 00:33:57.890
your long explanation is fine because it actually

00:33:57.890 --> 00:34:01.089
leads us right to what are the black mambas,

00:34:01.230 --> 00:34:03.809
why are they so special, and why did you form

00:34:03.809 --> 00:34:06.710
them? I think we got to the why. You're going

00:34:06.710 --> 00:34:09.510
to try to model off the British Bobby system,

00:34:09.969 --> 00:34:12.800
unarmed. but eyes on the ground, kind of presence

00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:15.500
that deters. But what is it that's unique? Proactive

00:34:15.500 --> 00:34:18.239
stuff, yes. So Black Mambas, they're unique.

00:34:18.239 --> 00:34:21.039
We wanted women. Women. It had to be women. It's

00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:23.619
an all -female anti -poaching unit. Yes, first

00:34:23.619 --> 00:34:26.380
of its kind, ever in the world. Awesome. And

00:34:26.380 --> 00:34:31.329
you should ask me why. I'm about to. And the

00:34:31.329 --> 00:34:33.389
reason you have to ask why is because the answer

00:34:33.389 --> 00:34:36.170
is awesome and amazing. And you know, my father's

00:34:36.170 --> 00:34:38.130
an old military man, and he thought I was starting

00:34:38.130 --> 00:34:42.610
a cult down in South Africa. He was very dubious,

00:34:42.869 --> 00:34:46.750
a whole bunch of women in camouflage uniforms,

00:34:47.010 --> 00:34:49.170
chanting and whatever. Yeah, marching. They're

00:34:49.170 --> 00:34:51.429
very disciplined. Extremely disciplined. Goodness,

00:34:51.630 --> 00:34:53.429
you know, they took to the training like you've

00:34:53.429 --> 00:34:54.849
never seen. And I've trained a lot of people

00:34:54.849 --> 00:34:57.670
in my life. And the women took to the training.

00:34:57.550 --> 00:35:01.150
training with gusto. And I didn't have a single

00:35:01.150 --> 00:35:02.889
one fall of the training course. No kidding.

00:35:03.489 --> 00:35:06.949
Yeah, if I recruited 20, 20 finished. Awesome.

00:35:06.969 --> 00:35:08.590
It's incredible, because they all help each other

00:35:08.590 --> 00:35:10.389
along. Yeah, yeah. You know, I'd catch them sneaking

00:35:10.389 --> 00:35:12.630
baked bean tins in their sleeves, you know, when

00:35:12.630 --> 00:35:14.010
they're marching. And I can see this big fat

00:35:14.010 --> 00:35:15.889
thing in the sleeve going up and down, you know.

00:35:16.409 --> 00:35:17.769
And so when you make them stand in the sun long

00:35:17.769 --> 00:35:19.570
enough for it to start getting hot, and then

00:35:19.570 --> 00:35:21.090
it burns, and then they want to roll their sleeves

00:35:21.090 --> 00:35:24.210
up, but they can't. So it was great fun, great

00:35:24.210 --> 00:35:29.360
fun training. Why all women? Because, Ed, you

00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:31.920
know, we have to step out of the arena at some

00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:33.739
stage. Either because, you know, we're in our

00:35:33.739 --> 00:35:35.639
50s now. You know, you look like you're in your

00:35:35.639 --> 00:35:38.119
30s. I'm not sure. That's going to get me a free

00:35:38.119 --> 00:35:41.219
drink, I think, at the bar somewhere. You're

00:35:41.219 --> 00:35:43.559
down for a free dinner on that one. I hope you

00:35:43.559 --> 00:35:46.320
and Horde do. But, you know, the reality is that

00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:48.900
we can't do this forever. We have to pass on

00:35:48.900 --> 00:35:51.800
the torch. It's the local community's responsibility.

00:35:52.239 --> 00:35:54.960
It's theirs. to cherish and nurture and we need

00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:57.119
to instill environmental patriotism into them.

00:35:57.360 --> 00:35:59.300
Otherwise, it's just an arms race, bigger fences,

00:35:59.460 --> 00:36:01.920
more helicopter fuel every year to try and protect

00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:03.579
this for the rich white people that come down

00:36:03.579 --> 00:36:08.179
on safari. So why women is because with the investment

00:36:08.179 --> 00:36:12.880
I make into them today, I will get a multi -generational

00:36:12.880 --> 00:36:16.139
output. So it's like a Swiss bank account. And

00:36:16.139 --> 00:36:17.659
I take a young woman, she just finished high

00:36:17.659 --> 00:36:20.940
school, I train her up, I equip her and I deploy

00:36:20.940 --> 00:36:24.440
her. and give her all the resources, financial

00:36:24.440 --> 00:36:27.099
resources, whatever, to be the breadwinner in

00:36:27.099 --> 00:36:30.099
that house, to be the responsible person in that

00:36:30.099 --> 00:36:32.719
community. Suddenly she has the decision -making

00:36:32.719 --> 00:36:35.159
capacity to decide if she wants to have another

00:36:35.159 --> 00:36:37.619
child or not, or if she wants to build a new

00:36:37.619 --> 00:36:39.980
room on her house, or send her kids to a proper

00:36:39.980 --> 00:36:42.219
school. You know, all those kind of decisions

00:36:42.219 --> 00:36:45.519
are hers to make. She's not sitting, and the

00:36:45.519 --> 00:36:47.639
husband is the breadwinner, and she's just collecting

00:36:47.639 --> 00:36:50.489
sticks and things, you know, for the fire. So,

00:36:50.789 --> 00:36:52.690
and imagine when she retires with me. So it's

00:36:52.690 --> 00:36:54.989
got to be a career choice. Interesting. I need

00:36:54.989 --> 00:36:57.769
to employ them, upskill them, and continue to

00:36:57.769 --> 00:36:59.809
find incentives for them to improve and climb

00:36:59.809 --> 00:37:02.250
the ladder, which is my biggest challenge, you

00:37:02.250 --> 00:37:03.989
know, because I mean, we're 13 years down the

00:37:03.989 --> 00:37:06.590
drag, and they're very loyal to me, and I'm very

00:37:06.590 --> 00:37:08.929
loyal to them. And now, you know, you've got

00:37:08.929 --> 00:37:10.989
to keep finding ways to keep them engaged. Sure.

00:37:11.909 --> 00:37:15.510
And the secret is to make sure that once I've

00:37:15.510 --> 00:37:17.960
recruited somebody, that they will retire with

00:37:17.960 --> 00:37:20.300
me. Interesting. So it's like a professional

00:37:20.300 --> 00:37:23.239
option for them. Yes, a full career choice. And

00:37:23.239 --> 00:37:25.840
these are women from the local communities just

00:37:25.840 --> 00:37:28.820
outside Olaphonse West or any of the private

00:37:28.820 --> 00:37:31.300
reserves along that line. So they have influence

00:37:31.300 --> 00:37:32.920
in the community they live in. Very much so.

00:37:33.119 --> 00:37:36.260
And now they're invested in the wildlife. Yeah.

00:37:36.519 --> 00:37:39.599
And you know, the idea is they must have kids.

00:37:41.139 --> 00:37:44.559
Because then the knowledge transfer happens and

00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:46.619
then they will retire and they will be sitting

00:37:46.619 --> 00:37:48.559
at home and looking after the children of their

00:37:48.559 --> 00:37:50.860
children. And that's where I get the bang for

00:37:50.860 --> 00:37:54.280
buck. So you know that whole thing about planting

00:37:54.280 --> 00:37:57.539
a seed but never expecting to sit in the shade

00:37:57.539 --> 00:37:59.059
of the tree kind of thing? Have you heard that

00:37:59.059 --> 00:38:03.559
analogy? It's that. So I know, I'm sitting here

00:38:03.559 --> 00:38:05.019
in the United States of America in the living

00:38:05.019 --> 00:38:07.300
desert, and they're running the show. They're

00:38:07.300 --> 00:38:09.059
putting their own patrol orders out there, they're

00:38:09.059 --> 00:38:11.099
running their own operations center, they're

00:38:11.099 --> 00:38:13.280
dividing their teams up to cover the threats

00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:15.539
and the risks and what have you. They do their

00:38:15.539 --> 00:38:17.760
SWAT analysis before they go out. It's fantastic.

00:38:18.059 --> 00:38:20.000
That is what empowerment is. Empowerment is not

00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:21.820
taking somebody, dressing them up, and then still

00:38:21.820 --> 00:38:24.840
telling them what to do every day. Now it's hard

00:38:24.840 --> 00:38:26.699
for me, and it'll be hard for you too, because

00:38:26.699 --> 00:38:29.579
we are from a top -down approach. If I'm in charge,

00:38:29.780 --> 00:38:31.159
I'm telling you what to do. There's no ambiguity.

00:38:31.360 --> 00:38:34.500
This is not a bloody democracy. Especially when

00:38:34.500 --> 00:38:36.820
you're in law enforcement, you can't have a democratic

00:38:36.820 --> 00:38:40.260
process. It's got to be a chain of command. But

00:38:40.260 --> 00:38:44.039
I've had to learn, Katie knows. There's the Katie,

00:38:44.219 --> 00:38:46.239
the secret Katie. Katie's here. I've got a tactical

00:38:46.239 --> 00:38:53.219
Katie. You know how we've had to adjust everything

00:38:53.219 --> 00:38:56.079
from the training protocol, the recruitment protocol,

00:38:56.179 --> 00:38:58.880
to the training protocol, to the deployment protocol,

00:38:59.000 --> 00:39:01.420
the equipment that they need. Everything had

00:39:01.420 --> 00:39:04.960
to change to make this work. And it was so easy.

00:39:04.960 --> 00:39:08.719
Okay. Once we just go so stuck in a rut. with

00:39:08.719 --> 00:39:11.619
how we train a Ranger and deploy a Ranger. So

00:39:11.619 --> 00:39:13.639
they're unarmed. What are they trained to do?

00:39:14.039 --> 00:39:19.420
What's a Black Mamba? Ninjas. Ninjas. They do

00:39:19.420 --> 00:39:22.019
have all that necessary training because it's

00:39:22.019 --> 00:39:24.880
actually, it's unit standards. You have to, you

00:39:24.880 --> 00:39:27.539
know, you can't be appointed as a private security

00:39:27.539 --> 00:39:30.840
officer or a game Ranger, what do they call it?

00:39:30.900 --> 00:39:33.599
A field Ranger. Unless you have done those training

00:39:33.599 --> 00:39:35.960
courses. I see. So they have that. I do not arm

00:39:35.960 --> 00:39:38.920
them for a number of reasons. And one of them

00:39:38.920 --> 00:39:43.280
is that I believe a weapon changes your mind.

00:39:43.380 --> 00:39:45.780
I carried a weapon for most of my career for

00:39:45.780 --> 00:39:49.699
these 30 years. And I know psychologically that

00:39:49.699 --> 00:39:53.440
it does change. You become a little braver and

00:39:53.440 --> 00:39:55.760
you take bigger risks. But the point is these

00:39:55.760 --> 00:39:58.980
are mothers or future mothers and they will be...

00:39:58.750 --> 00:40:00.690
tucking their children into bed at night, and

00:40:00.690 --> 00:40:03.170
I want them to be telling stories, going to the

00:40:03.170 --> 00:40:05.530
community, sitting in the local Shabin, which

00:40:05.530 --> 00:40:08.610
is the local outdoor bars there, and I want them

00:40:08.610 --> 00:40:10.329
to be telling stories about the elephants drinking

00:40:10.329 --> 00:40:12.750
at the water holes, and the hyenas crying at

00:40:12.750 --> 00:40:15.530
night, you know? Not... Oh, and then I had my

00:40:15.530 --> 00:40:18.389
big old gun, you know, and then the double stack

00:40:18.389 --> 00:40:21.250
magazine was 762 and blah, blah, blah, you know,

00:40:21.329 --> 00:40:23.309
because that's the talk I hear around the campfire

00:40:23.309 --> 00:40:25.610
every bloody night was my armed response team,

00:40:25.610 --> 00:40:28.210
you know, and I think imagine if that's all you've

00:40:28.210 --> 00:40:30.809
got to talk about, you know, we're not winning

00:40:30.809 --> 00:40:33.150
hearts and souls in the community with the velocity

00:40:33.150 --> 00:40:36.369
of a bloody two to three. Well, and then I think

00:40:36.369 --> 00:40:39.070
there's something to that. You mentioned to if

00:40:39.070 --> 00:40:42.820
you. If a poacher encounters armed Rangers, they

00:40:42.820 --> 00:40:44.900
may be more likely to use violence against the

00:40:44.900 --> 00:40:48.900
Rangers preemptively, right? 100 % So there's

00:40:48.900 --> 00:40:52.460
that too, but they're how so they're out there

00:40:52.460 --> 00:40:56.480
being essentially the eyes and ears Why is that

00:40:56.480 --> 00:40:59.139
a deterrent to poachers versus the the six guys

00:40:59.139 --> 00:41:01.719
with a gun? I know, you know, yeah, I get criticized

00:41:01.719 --> 00:41:05.809
so much for our deployment policy because We've

00:41:05.809 --> 00:41:08.110
done the homework. We've actually published it

00:41:08.110 --> 00:41:11.369
in various journals as well, tested it and published

00:41:11.369 --> 00:41:15.710
it. Purchase the information that they are buying

00:41:15.710 --> 00:41:18.989
from the insiders, the gate guards, the crooked

00:41:18.989 --> 00:41:21.570
rangers, whatever it is, is how to get in and

00:41:21.570 --> 00:41:24.130
out of the landscape undetected. Right. You know?

00:41:24.150 --> 00:41:26.329
Right. They don't want to be seen. They do not

00:41:26.329 --> 00:41:29.230
want to be seen. Yeah. So that's the intel that

00:41:29.230 --> 00:41:31.530
they're buying. It's kind of useless to them

00:41:31.530 --> 00:41:34.849
if they're buying the location of a rhino three

00:41:34.849 --> 00:41:37.150
hours ago, you know? Right. What the fuck? I

00:41:37.150 --> 00:41:38.889
mean, that thing could be anyway. Yeah. Yeah.

00:41:38.889 --> 00:41:40.670
And anyway, they don't need that. Yeah. They

00:41:40.670 --> 00:41:43.789
know how rhinos work. They're no fool. This is

00:41:43.789 --> 00:41:46.829
fools. Yeah. And you know, it's normally, poachers

00:41:46.829 --> 00:41:48.469
are normally in a group of three, as you know.

00:41:48.550 --> 00:41:50.929
One of them is always somebody that's off duty,

00:41:51.090 --> 00:41:53.050
that should be working at a lodge, could be working

00:41:53.050 --> 00:41:55.050
at a lodge. Right. So they know the landscape,

00:41:55.150 --> 00:41:57.449
they know everything. What they don't know is

00:41:57.449 --> 00:42:00.110
where are the enforcement agents. Right. and

00:42:00.110 --> 00:42:04.429
they want to avoid them at all costs. So if I

00:42:04.429 --> 00:42:07.949
saturate the landscape and it's visible, shiny

00:42:07.949 --> 00:42:10.449
badges on the side of the cars, flashing lights,

00:42:11.110 --> 00:42:12.530
you know, when you're driving down the highway

00:42:12.530 --> 00:42:16.949
and you see an official car, your heart rate

00:42:16.949 --> 00:42:20.559
goes up. You quickly look around to see what

00:42:20.559 --> 00:42:22.559
your speed is. You stick on your safety belt.

00:42:22.840 --> 00:42:26.039
You go through this mental thing. Maybe you do,

00:42:26.159 --> 00:42:27.880
but I always follow along. I don't even have

00:42:27.880 --> 00:42:29.840
a seatbelt in my Land Rover, man. I know you

00:42:29.840 --> 00:42:31.559
don't. I don't even think the brakes work anymore.

00:42:32.219 --> 00:42:34.539
I don't think they worked then either, when I

00:42:34.539 --> 00:42:37.820
met you. But that's the idea of visible policing.

00:42:38.500 --> 00:42:40.960
Somebody that's considering coming into poach,

00:42:41.139 --> 00:42:43.230
or is insider. They're saying, no, don't bother.

00:42:43.329 --> 00:42:44.989
These guys, they're all over the place. They're

00:42:44.989 --> 00:42:48.050
sitting in all these hides on top of hills. You

00:42:48.050 --> 00:42:49.829
can see their spotlights out every night. There's

00:42:49.829 --> 00:42:51.929
vehicles up and down. They're stopping every

00:42:51.929 --> 00:42:54.429
car and questioning them. So there's a lot of

00:42:54.429 --> 00:42:56.530
proactive stuff. In between their patrols, they're

00:42:56.530 --> 00:42:59.030
knocking on doors. Interesting. Riding down who's

00:42:59.030 --> 00:43:01.429
staying where. Cell phone numbers. Can I have

00:43:01.429 --> 00:43:03.809
a look? Thank you very much. Looking in their

00:43:03.809 --> 00:43:06.730
bags. Wow. Yeah. Of people that are inside the

00:43:06.730 --> 00:43:09.860
reserve. That's right. Yeah. There's a lot of

00:43:09.860 --> 00:43:13.980
effort going into keeping the landscape clear,

00:43:15.059 --> 00:43:17.460
but not a single shot has been fired in anger

00:43:17.460 --> 00:43:21.639
since I appointed them. No kidding. At them or

00:43:21.639 --> 00:43:23.239
including at your armed rangers? Either way.

00:43:24.420 --> 00:43:27.480
Wow. It's just like the landscape is saturated

00:43:27.480 --> 00:43:30.099
with these undies. Do you feel like it has actually

00:43:30.099 --> 00:43:33.280
helped reduce the amount of poaching you've got

00:43:33.280 --> 00:43:35.840
on the reserve? I would like to say yes. But

00:43:35.840 --> 00:43:37.920
at the same time, I'm not stupid enough to take

00:43:37.920 --> 00:43:40.559
credit for that. I think what really helped us

00:43:40.559 --> 00:43:44.320
a lot was the COVID -19. It stopped the supply

00:43:44.320 --> 00:43:46.219
and demand chain dead in its tracks. It made

00:43:46.219 --> 00:43:48.380
it very hard to move the horn, right? Yes, it

00:43:48.380 --> 00:43:52.780
did. Because this happened. I was in Africa when

00:43:52.780 --> 00:43:58.070
COVID hit. Unlike the United States, when Africa

00:43:58.070 --> 00:44:00.610
shut down, the military was all over the place

00:44:00.610 --> 00:44:03.329
on the roads. Police were on the roads. You could

00:44:03.329 --> 00:44:06.510
not drive without answering questions. And so

00:44:06.510 --> 00:44:09.349
it became extremely risky to be moving contraband.

00:44:10.829 --> 00:44:13.429
Just moving around in general. Yes, and all the

00:44:13.429 --> 00:44:16.590
insiders at the same time. Yes, they weren't

00:44:16.590 --> 00:44:19.519
in the park anymore. wasn't a single useful person

00:44:19.519 --> 00:44:22.400
to a poacher. So the parks were ghost towns.

00:44:22.699 --> 00:44:24.219
I actually think that had the single biggest

00:44:24.219 --> 00:44:27.579
effect because, quite frankly, in the rural areas

00:44:27.579 --> 00:44:30.219
where we are in the national parks network, a

00:44:30.219 --> 00:44:32.800
poacher could easily have got in and out because

00:44:32.800 --> 00:44:35.920
there was no other traffic on the roads. But

00:44:35.920 --> 00:44:38.340
it's the fact that they had nobody inside the

00:44:38.340 --> 00:44:40.440
park that they could phone and say, we're the

00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:43.440
anti -poaching guys tonight, Bob. Damn, Bob's

00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:47.079
at home. You know, I want to get back to the

00:44:47.079 --> 00:44:53.559
Mambas. But in this regard, with the corruption

00:44:53.559 --> 00:44:56.559
and everything, my big thing has always been

00:44:56.559 --> 00:44:58.139
just because you're poor doesn't mean you break

00:44:58.139 --> 00:45:02.360
the law. Thank heavens. Yeah, I know. So excusing

00:45:02.360 --> 00:45:05.460
law breaking because a person is poor, I don't

00:45:05.460 --> 00:45:09.860
buy it. But the real insidious side of the whole

00:45:09.860 --> 00:45:12.420
rhino horn trafficking, pangolin trafficking,

00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:16.349
ivory trafficking is that Local people who are

00:45:16.349 --> 00:45:19.789
poor are corrupted by those syndicates who come

00:45:19.789 --> 00:45:22.210
in from outside the communities, and they're

00:45:22.210 --> 00:45:25.630
offering a lot of money, and they corrupt people,

00:45:25.730 --> 00:45:28.469
and they also corrupt rangers who live in those

00:45:28.469 --> 00:45:31.610
communities, right? And those rangers face a

00:45:31.610 --> 00:45:34.150
lot of issues living in the same community where

00:45:34.150 --> 00:45:36.849
potentially bad guys live. Their personal safety

00:45:36.849 --> 00:45:38.889
could be at risk. They could be worried about

00:45:38.889 --> 00:45:40.650
their families, and maybe that's why they're

00:45:40.650 --> 00:45:44.840
corrupt, or they're corrupted by money. So, you

00:45:44.840 --> 00:45:48.420
know, there are these outside influences from

00:45:48.420 --> 00:45:51.400
larger, well -funded criminal enterprises that

00:45:51.400 --> 00:45:54.340
corrupt these people. Why do you think the black

00:45:54.340 --> 00:45:57.260
mambas have been so resistant to corruption?

00:45:59.769 --> 00:46:02.590
You know, I like to say a lot of things about

00:46:02.590 --> 00:46:05.250
that, but it's a phenomenon and I actually think

00:46:05.250 --> 00:46:07.829
it's cultural. You know, the other reason why

00:46:07.829 --> 00:46:10.250
we selected women apart from the multi -generational

00:46:10.250 --> 00:46:12.809
return on investment, it's also because they're

00:46:12.809 --> 00:46:14.630
the primary caregivers in their community. I

00:46:14.630 --> 00:46:17.110
see. So, you know, and we must recognize that

00:46:17.110 --> 00:46:19.190
in the employment model. We must recognize that

00:46:19.190 --> 00:46:21.690
at least half of their responsibility is towards

00:46:21.690 --> 00:46:24.260
their... kinship model and their pseudo kinship

00:46:24.260 --> 00:46:27.780
model in the community. So the old grandpas and

00:46:27.780 --> 00:46:30.380
grannies and even the sick donkeys and what have

00:46:30.380 --> 00:46:32.500
you and the young kids, if we're going to any

00:46:32.500 --> 00:46:35.340
of these ladies' houses, there's like a hundred

00:46:35.340 --> 00:46:37.340
kids running around. And you say, wow, you've

00:46:37.340 --> 00:46:40.139
been busy. And they say, it's not mine. I don't

00:46:40.139 --> 00:46:41.800
know, they're just on the streets and they must

00:46:41.800 --> 00:46:43.739
get fed and bring them in, bring them in. And

00:46:43.739 --> 00:46:45.380
this is the neighbor's kids and that's the other

00:46:45.380 --> 00:46:47.079
one down the road, but she's sick and that one's

00:46:47.079 --> 00:46:50.679
at work. You know, they're just carers. there

00:46:50.679 --> 00:46:55.219
are phenomenal nurturers and resource managers

00:46:55.219 --> 00:46:58.500
because they're the ones that have to do the

00:46:58.500 --> 00:47:00.739
firewood collecting and getting the water in

00:47:00.739 --> 00:47:02.920
those big 20 -liter cans on their heads and what

00:47:02.920 --> 00:47:05.059
have you. So they don't want the water to be

00:47:05.059 --> 00:47:06.400
wasted and the firewood to be wasted because

00:47:06.400 --> 00:47:08.840
they just have to go out and do it again. And

00:47:08.840 --> 00:47:10.880
it's the men that are just coming in and burning

00:47:10.880 --> 00:47:12.420
all the wood and sitting around the fire all

00:47:12.420 --> 00:47:14.360
night drinking their beer and splashing the water

00:47:14.360 --> 00:47:17.440
all over the show and so on. So they will secretly

00:47:17.769 --> 00:47:19.989
have stashes and caches and they have to think

00:47:19.989 --> 00:47:22.829
differently, a different set of neuro pathways.

00:47:24.469 --> 00:47:26.170
I know it's not answering your question, but

00:47:26.170 --> 00:47:28.570
I don't know why they have. Yeah, but you're

00:47:28.570 --> 00:47:30.570
kind of implying that they might have a better

00:47:30.570 --> 00:47:33.309
sense of consequences. Yes. Thinking down the

00:47:33.309 --> 00:47:37.110
road, right? Okay, the short term on becoming

00:47:37.110 --> 00:47:40.329
corrupted and taking money to say where rhinos

00:47:40.329 --> 00:47:43.750
are is a short term gain, but it may harm me

00:47:43.750 --> 00:47:45.989
and my family and my community long term. Absolutely.

00:47:46.250 --> 00:47:48.559
Let me tell you. Which men don't normally. That

00:47:48.559 --> 00:47:51.460
is right. Men are notoriously not consequence

00:47:51.460 --> 00:47:54.699
thinkers. You know, I want to collect sexy Land

00:47:54.699 --> 00:47:56.760
Rovers, you know, and you know, I've got to put

00:47:56.760 --> 00:47:58.619
kids through school, but they can probably make

00:47:58.619 --> 00:48:00.599
it themselves, you know. Oh, let me tell you

00:48:00.599 --> 00:48:03.659
a story. Is it the Land Rover story? Sort of.

00:48:04.519 --> 00:48:08.800
I once traveled up to a small village. I can't

00:48:08.800 --> 00:48:11.119
remember the name of it, but it was in Mozambique

00:48:11.119 --> 00:48:14.420
just across the border from South Africa. I don't

00:48:14.420 --> 00:48:17.059
think it was that one. Massingir. Yes, Massingir.

00:48:17.059 --> 00:48:20.780
Oh my god, the poacher. Total poacher haven,

00:48:20.780 --> 00:48:24.099
right? Absolutely. So Massingir, it's right across

00:48:24.099 --> 00:48:25.699
the border, which means it's right across the

00:48:25.699 --> 00:48:28.360
border from Kruger National Park. One thing that

00:48:28.360 --> 00:48:30.260
really struck me, we're driving through town.

00:48:30.320 --> 00:48:32.719
First of all, we were told by the local magistrate

00:48:32.719 --> 00:48:34.300
in that town that we needed to be out of there

00:48:34.300 --> 00:48:36.760
by dark because it would not be safe for us.

00:48:37.420 --> 00:48:40.300
Because it had already gotten around that US

00:48:40.300 --> 00:48:43.300
government people were there. Okay, looking into

00:48:43.300 --> 00:48:46.039
poaching. Anyway, so we're driving down the street

00:48:46.039 --> 00:48:50.360
and I'm like, you know, looking at house, little

00:48:50.360 --> 00:48:52.400
house after little house and you're going along

00:48:52.400 --> 00:48:54.980
and you're like, oh wow, that's a rough house

00:48:54.980 --> 00:48:56.619
to live in. Ooh, there's another rough house.

00:48:56.860 --> 00:48:59.079
Ooh, those people are just barely making it.

00:48:59.139 --> 00:49:02.320
And then all of a sudden, oh, huge, beautiful

00:49:02.320 --> 00:49:06.019
house with a beautiful Land Rover in it. And

00:49:06.019 --> 00:49:10.800
what really struck me is, Okay, that's a guy

00:49:10.800 --> 00:49:13.019
clearly who's involved in some criminal activity,

00:49:13.320 --> 00:49:17.019
probably rhino horn trafficking. And this bogus

00:49:17.019 --> 00:49:19.760
baloney that he is somehow benefiting his community.

00:49:21.039 --> 00:49:23.960
Everybody else is living in dirt and the single

00:49:23.960 --> 00:49:26.980
school yard in the town has no windows and no

00:49:26.980 --> 00:49:31.320
playground. It's a greed -based thing because

00:49:31.320 --> 00:49:34.159
he wants that new Land Rover. And it's a live

00:49:34.159 --> 00:49:36.739
for the day mentality. Yeah, live for the day

00:49:36.739 --> 00:49:38.719
mentality. Yeah. And that may be different from

00:49:38.719 --> 00:49:43.179
the black mambas thinking longer term. They are.

00:49:43.460 --> 00:49:47.539
And it is one thing that they hold closer to

00:49:47.539 --> 00:49:49.440
their hearts than anything else in the world.

00:49:49.760 --> 00:49:52.800
It's their families, their kids, you know, and

00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:55.480
they think ahead for their kids. They want the

00:49:55.480 --> 00:49:58.840
very best for their kids. And that's why we make

00:49:58.840 --> 00:50:02.199
a huge mistake by excluding that value system

00:50:02.199 --> 00:50:07.380
out of Who is the most, I mean, those kids, I

00:50:07.380 --> 00:50:10.539
don't know how to say this, but the kids spend

00:50:10.539 --> 00:50:16.380
probably more than 75 % of their time with the

00:50:16.380 --> 00:50:20.300
mother in those communities, if not 100 % of

00:50:20.300 --> 00:50:21.719
their time with the mother or the grandmother,

00:50:21.820 --> 00:50:25.420
the woman. Because the men are kind of, you know,

00:50:26.099 --> 00:50:28.599
rather conspicuous in their absence, you know?

00:50:28.940 --> 00:50:30.539
It's like a wham -bam, thank you, ma 'am, the

00:50:30.539 --> 00:50:32.579
baby's yours, the pleasure's mine, okay, bye.

00:50:33.260 --> 00:50:35.940
And you can edit that out if you want to. Yeah,

00:50:35.940 --> 00:50:40.280
we're gonna cut that. Katie's cracking up over

00:50:40.280 --> 00:50:44.659
here. But it is a thing. So, you know, the moral

00:50:44.659 --> 00:50:47.800
compass of that child, you know, when that child

00:50:47.800 --> 00:50:50.460
grows up, the moral compass... is coming from

00:50:50.460 --> 00:50:52.800
the mother or the grandmother or the sister in

00:50:52.800 --> 00:50:56.519
the house, not from the men because they're not

00:50:56.519 --> 00:51:01.400
around. So if I want to pass on the torch and

00:51:01.400 --> 00:51:05.280
I want to have a... community that fosters environmental,

00:51:05.440 --> 00:51:08.400
I like to call it environmental patriotism. I

00:51:08.400 --> 00:51:12.539
like that. Yeah, it sounds cool. And it implies

00:51:12.539 --> 00:51:15.860
ownership, right? Yes, absolutely. It's a national

00:51:15.860 --> 00:51:19.159
park. Or investment. Yeah. It's not a private

00:51:19.159 --> 00:51:22.059
exclusive park. It's a national park. It belongs

00:51:22.059 --> 00:51:25.019
to the people. So they must take responsibility.

00:51:25.199 --> 00:51:30.659
They must foster. Patriotism. But there's no

00:51:30.659 --> 00:51:33.539
doubt that women bring a set of values into the

00:51:33.539 --> 00:51:36.460
conservation arena. All the men in my 30 years

00:51:36.460 --> 00:51:38.340
that I've been there, we're interested in the

00:51:38.340 --> 00:51:40.719
helicopters and the four by fours and the guns

00:51:40.719 --> 00:51:43.019
and it's so cool man and the badges and it really

00:51:43.019 --> 00:51:45.400
is freaking cool. And if I get a guy in that

00:51:45.400 --> 00:51:47.739
doesn't find that cool, he's in the wrong damn

00:51:47.739 --> 00:51:50.920
job. Because that's half of the reason why you

00:51:50.920 --> 00:51:52.679
should want to get it. The other half is because

00:51:52.679 --> 00:51:56.219
you want to save nature and shit. You can do

00:51:56.219 --> 00:51:59.139
that by recycling too. On that point, there are

00:51:59.139 --> 00:52:02.159
plenty of good... male rangers out there and

00:52:02.159 --> 00:52:04.699
all of that. But the approach to the Black Mamas,

00:52:04.739 --> 00:52:07.739
I think, is really unique because you're capitalizing

00:52:07.739 --> 00:52:12.559
on that unique cultural position that women have

00:52:12.559 --> 00:52:17.820
in African cultures. And you're thinking beyond.

00:52:17.920 --> 00:52:19.539
You've got them out on patrol. And we're going

00:52:19.539 --> 00:52:21.340
to talk in a second about the things that they

00:52:21.340 --> 00:52:23.320
do, like their particular tasks. You've talked

00:52:23.320 --> 00:52:24.980
a little bit about it, but I want to go more.

00:52:27.469 --> 00:52:30.289
You know, there's a bigger picture to this. You're

00:52:30.289 --> 00:52:32.929
thinking black mambas, okay, they're gonna be

00:52:32.929 --> 00:52:35.989
those bobbies on the patrol. They're eyes and

00:52:35.989 --> 00:52:39.130
ears, they're reporting. They're being seen,

00:52:39.250 --> 00:52:41.889
which is a deterrent in and of itself. But they're

00:52:41.889 --> 00:52:44.349
also going back to their communities and advocating,

00:52:44.670 --> 00:52:50.010
they're educating. They're maybe even like, shaming's

00:52:50.010 --> 00:52:52.170
not the right word, but maybe they're discouraging

00:52:52.170 --> 00:52:55.460
by... Leading by example. Yeah, leading by example

00:52:55.460 --> 00:52:58.019
and vocally chastising people who maybe don't

00:52:58.019 --> 00:53:00.940
do the right thing, right? Because that would

00:53:00.940 --> 00:53:03.239
be definitely a maternal job within the family

00:53:03.239 --> 00:53:05.619
structure. They're the ones that kind of lay

00:53:05.619 --> 00:53:08.219
down the law, right? Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

00:53:08.780 --> 00:53:12.840
Absolutely. So it's a multifaceted approach to

00:53:12.840 --> 00:53:15.960
the black mambas have and a multifaceted benefit

00:53:15.960 --> 00:53:17.559
that they have that's sometimes hard to measure.

00:53:19.279 --> 00:53:22.440
Yeah. It's hard to measure. Yeah, but you kind

00:53:22.440 --> 00:53:24.739
of inherently know it's a good thing. Yeah, you

00:53:24.739 --> 00:53:32.139
know, the anecdotes that I have. Firstly, I haven't

00:53:32.139 --> 00:53:34.179
lost a rhino on my land. I touch wood now because

00:53:34.179 --> 00:53:35.619
it could happen whilst we're sitting here. You

00:53:35.619 --> 00:53:37.039
should never brag about something like that.

00:53:37.199 --> 00:53:38.940
But when was the last time you lost a rhino?

00:53:39.159 --> 00:53:41.980
It's been 10 years. On Olifant's West? On Olifant's

00:53:41.980 --> 00:53:44.460
West, where the Mamba started. That's incredible.

00:53:45.699 --> 00:53:48.199
There are some there. We won't say how many.

00:53:48.300 --> 00:53:50.420
We won't say how many. But yes, my land is going

00:53:50.420 --> 00:53:54.539
to be somewhat saturated. And we are on the strong

00:53:54.539 --> 00:53:57.800
public interface. And we have a compromised landscape

00:53:57.800 --> 00:54:00.780
with mines and power lines. I make it sound very

00:54:00.780 --> 00:54:03.440
attractive. It is. I've been to all of them.

00:54:03.480 --> 00:54:05.219
It's cool. It's beautiful. Yeah, it's very cool.

00:54:05.360 --> 00:54:07.500
But it's compromised compared to the other parks

00:54:07.500 --> 00:54:09.840
directly adjacent to me. And there's no fences

00:54:09.840 --> 00:54:14.139
between us, as you know. I should have lost all

00:54:14.139 --> 00:54:17.780
my rhinos by now. Knowing what I know and having

00:54:17.780 --> 00:54:20.679
managed all those other regions as the head warden

00:54:20.679 --> 00:54:24.300
of that whole section of Balulay. Yeah, I should

00:54:24.300 --> 00:54:26.039
have lost all my rhinos by now. Interesting.

00:54:26.280 --> 00:54:28.900
And yet, I mean, you ask what do the Mambas do

00:54:28.900 --> 00:54:31.559
every day and night? Yeah. They're up and down

00:54:31.559 --> 00:54:33.619
the boundaries. They're shining spotlights in

00:54:33.619 --> 00:54:36.179
windows. They're watching every vehicle that

00:54:36.179 --> 00:54:38.679
comes along on the road. Right. Yeah. sitting

00:54:38.679 --> 00:54:41.079
on all these high points with their spotlights

00:54:41.079 --> 00:54:43.519
and their night vision goggles you know if they

00:54:43.519 --> 00:54:47.280
find rhinos in a compromised spot like too close

00:54:47.280 --> 00:54:49.940
to a road or whatever it might be they babysit

00:54:49.940 --> 00:54:52.300
that thing nice until the sun comes up the next

00:54:52.300 --> 00:54:54.440
day you know they love that job by the way yeah

00:54:54.440 --> 00:54:57.519
yeah that's it they make little videos for me

00:54:57.519 --> 00:54:59.860
and they chat away merely it's great We also

00:54:59.860 --> 00:55:01.480
don't sneak around. So I told them, this is the

00:55:01.480 --> 00:55:03.980
visible. Yes, be visible. Yeah, and make noise.

00:55:04.340 --> 00:55:07.239
Yeah. Yeah. Because poachers are lazy. Yeah.

00:55:07.260 --> 00:55:09.420
If it's going to be risky or a lot of work, they're

00:55:09.420 --> 00:55:12.460
not going to do it. But, you know, I think another

00:55:12.460 --> 00:55:15.559
one of the molds that we broke was we don't patrol

00:55:15.559 --> 00:55:18.679
in a stochastic regime. What does that mean?

00:55:20.699 --> 00:55:22.920
Randomly, you know, because you would you would

00:55:22.920 --> 00:55:24.599
assume that if you wanted to catch criminal,

00:55:24.699 --> 00:55:27.500
you must have a random patrol pattern and not

00:55:27.500 --> 00:55:30.579
have a a routine patrol because they'll work

00:55:30.579 --> 00:55:32.800
out what your routine is and then they'll come

00:55:32.800 --> 00:55:35.980
in after your patrol's over. Right. We rather

00:55:35.980 --> 00:55:38.619
looked at optimum hunting times because what

00:55:38.619 --> 00:55:40.780
is aperture? It's a hunter. Yeah. Okay. When

00:55:40.780 --> 00:55:43.179
is it an optimum time to hunt like a fisherman?

00:55:43.480 --> 00:55:47.159
Full moons, stuff like that. Yeah. And when the

00:55:47.159 --> 00:55:50.239
lodge vehicles are not on the landscape, you

00:55:50.239 --> 00:55:53.099
know, so on and so on. So we closed, we packaged

00:55:53.099 --> 00:55:55.599
it and said these are the optimum times that

00:55:55.599 --> 00:55:59.239
aperture would... be successful as a hunter right

00:55:59.239 --> 00:56:03.460
we close those windows now if he comes in so

00:56:03.460 --> 00:56:06.820
that's a routine every time we are closing those

00:56:06.820 --> 00:56:09.239
windows every day every night so if he wants

00:56:09.239 --> 00:56:12.639
to come in and poach he has to go in sub -optimum

00:56:12.639 --> 00:56:15.260
hunting time which means he has to either use

00:56:15.260 --> 00:56:17.460
a torch or a flashlight as you guys call it torches

00:56:17.460 --> 00:56:22.380
like a Yeah, it's a flashlight. Not the flaming

00:56:22.380 --> 00:56:24.880
torch, but a flashlight. Exactly. March on the

00:56:24.880 --> 00:56:27.980
castle with your torch. They'll have to use a

00:56:27.980 --> 00:56:30.460
torch, otherwise they can't see a bloody thing.

00:56:30.679 --> 00:56:32.519
Just stumble around. Craig, please speak English,

00:56:32.559 --> 00:56:35.280
okay? On this podcast, you need to speak English.

00:56:35.659 --> 00:56:40.699
I'll speak English for you. I speak American

00:56:40.699 --> 00:56:45.980
English. Yes, exactly. If you say aluminum, we're

00:56:45.980 --> 00:56:51.980
done. and lumenuminum. Oh my god. Okay, I'm sorry,

00:56:52.099 --> 00:56:54.119
I interrupted your old terrain of thought. No,

00:56:54.119 --> 00:56:57.659
no, I'm on a rant. You know, so if you close

00:56:57.659 --> 00:56:59.820
those optimal hunting times, you force them into

00:56:59.820 --> 00:57:02.460
the sub -optimal times, they have to expose themselves.

00:57:02.539 --> 00:57:05.579
Risky. You know, or very risky and hide you to

00:57:05.579 --> 00:57:07.420
a criminal, make it risky. Yeah, they're lazy.

00:57:07.699 --> 00:57:10.820
Absolutely. And the landscape is not compromised

00:57:10.820 --> 00:57:15.050
and they will go home empty handed. Yeah. and

00:57:15.050 --> 00:57:16.710
they'll do that once or twice and realize that

00:57:16.710 --> 00:57:19.989
this is an unprofitable pursuit. Exactly. I like

00:57:19.989 --> 00:57:22.769
it. I mean, yeah, some of the things I had written

00:57:22.769 --> 00:57:24.750
down here, you know, they do kind of classic

00:57:24.750 --> 00:57:27.230
foot patrols during the day, night vehicle patrols.

00:57:27.250 --> 00:57:30.329
You've mentioned that. Another thing that struck

00:57:30.329 --> 00:57:33.179
me, I looked at the website, you know, and I

00:57:33.179 --> 00:57:34.960
kind of forget about this, because every ranger

00:57:34.960 --> 00:57:36.780
in Africa does this. And in the United States,

00:57:36.920 --> 00:57:39.880
we don't. Our park rangers just never deal with

00:57:39.880 --> 00:57:42.900
this. If they do, it's very rare. But snare sweeps.

00:57:42.900 --> 00:57:46.179
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Snaring is a real problem. Oh,

00:57:46.179 --> 00:57:50.199
man. It's so bad. Yeah. This is the new thing

00:57:50.199 --> 00:57:52.900
for poaching, is the freaking snares. And I know

00:57:52.900 --> 00:57:55.780
they're not new, new. Yeah, but I mean is it

00:57:55.780 --> 00:57:58.280
still mainly for bushmeat? Yeah. Yeah, and it

00:57:58.280 --> 00:58:00.679
is describe what snaring is because Americans

00:58:00.679 --> 00:58:02.699
Americans aren't gonna really know what that

00:58:02.699 --> 00:58:05.940
is. It's a it's a piece of wire that they loop

00:58:05.940 --> 00:58:09.480
around and tie a Slipknot on it, and then they

00:58:09.480 --> 00:58:11.500
anchor it to a tree or a rock or whatever It

00:58:11.500 --> 00:58:13.639
might be and even an animal passes through it's

00:58:13.639 --> 00:58:15.000
either going to catch you on the leg or around

00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:18.440
the neck or you know whatever it is, and the

00:58:18.440 --> 00:58:20.460
thinnest piece of wire will kill the biggest

00:58:20.460 --> 00:58:22.880
animal. Just as to cut through a kitty's tendon

00:58:22.880 --> 00:58:24.699
or cut through a jugular or something, you know.

00:58:24.920 --> 00:58:27.300
And it's a terrible, terrible way to go. And

00:58:27.300 --> 00:58:29.420
normally they're targeting, you know, bushmeat

00:58:29.420 --> 00:58:31.800
animals like warthogs, impala, that kind of thing,

00:58:32.139 --> 00:58:36.260
right? But I've seen an elephant with, you know,

00:58:36.480 --> 00:58:39.219
two and a half feet of its trunk cut off from

00:58:39.219 --> 00:58:43.219
a snare that it got into. A lion can get into

00:58:43.219 --> 00:58:46.199
it, even a rhino can get into it and injure themselves

00:58:46.199 --> 00:58:47.980
so badly that they... That's the thing, it's

00:58:47.980 --> 00:58:49.340
indiscriminate. Yeah, it's indiscriminate. They

00:58:49.340 --> 00:58:52.860
die. I actually refer to it as a wall of death,

00:58:53.119 --> 00:58:55.300
because they will block every path to a water

00:58:55.300 --> 00:58:58.280
hole with snares. It's like a gill net, you know?

00:58:58.380 --> 00:59:01.239
And then if the landscape is too hot, I don't

00:59:01.239 --> 00:59:02.579
mean temperature -wise, I mean there's just too

00:59:02.579 --> 00:59:05.179
much activity, then they just abandon them. Yeah,

00:59:05.380 --> 00:59:06.500
they never come back to check them. Because it

00:59:06.500 --> 00:59:08.639
costs nothing. Right. You know? It's not like

00:59:08.639 --> 00:59:10.179
your rifle. You're going to go back to get your

00:59:10.179 --> 00:59:11.860
rifle. Yeah, exactly. You know? But the snares,

00:59:11.980 --> 00:59:14.159
they just abandon them. Yeah. They can get that

00:59:14.159 --> 00:59:16.900
wire anywhere off your fence, you know? So then,

00:59:17.019 --> 00:59:20.900
for years, that bloody wall of death is sitting

00:59:20.900 --> 00:59:23.460
there and catching everything from a scrub hair

00:59:23.460 --> 00:59:26.199
to a rhino, man. They're walking up with a jewelry.

00:59:26.320 --> 00:59:28.239
I call it a jewelry. You know, you see them wearing

00:59:28.239 --> 00:59:30.460
a bangle or wearing a necklace or what have you.

00:59:31.320 --> 00:59:33.400
That's our biggest coup. With the mambas, by

00:59:33.400 --> 00:59:35.840
the way. Yeah, they go out and look for snares

00:59:35.840 --> 00:59:38.000
and pull them out. Their motto is, find the snare

00:59:38.000 --> 00:59:40.579
before the animals do. Yes. And they're bloody

00:59:40.579 --> 00:59:43.400
good at it. And it's like a treasure hunt for

00:59:43.400 --> 00:59:45.360
them. Oh, it's hard. It's hard to spot a snake.

00:59:45.360 --> 00:59:47.980
Yeah. I go and see them. I can't either. I'd

00:59:47.980 --> 00:59:49.860
go out on some snares. I'll get caught in them.

00:59:50.559 --> 00:59:53.260
I have to call for help. I can't tell you how

00:59:53.260 --> 00:59:55.360
many snares I walked past and the ranger behind

00:59:55.360 --> 00:59:57.300
me caught. And I'm like, what in the heck? How

00:59:57.300 --> 01:00:00.340
did you see that? It's incredible. But that's

01:00:00.340 --> 01:00:01.800
our biggest coup because we've dropped the bush.

01:00:01.800 --> 01:00:04.659
meat poaching in our area by almost 90%. Nice.

01:00:05.340 --> 01:00:07.380
Yeah. In fact, I think the last animal I had

01:00:07.380 --> 01:00:11.440
in a snare was a young zebra more than 400 days

01:00:11.440 --> 01:00:14.920
ago. And yes, it was an everyday event. That's

01:00:14.920 --> 01:00:19.699
awesome. Yeah. I want to bring this. I think

01:00:19.699 --> 01:00:21.579
the Black Mamas are an amazing thing. What's

01:00:21.579 --> 01:00:24.440
your retention rate? You say you're going 100%.

01:00:24.440 --> 01:00:27.280
You're going for people who retired. So the Black

01:00:27.280 --> 01:00:29.719
Mamas I met the first time I met you, which I

01:00:29.719 --> 01:00:32.300
think was 2015, they're still there. They're

01:00:32.300 --> 01:00:35.320
all sergeants or master sergeants now. That is

01:00:35.320 --> 01:00:37.780
amazing. They've done very well. You'll actually

01:00:37.780 --> 01:00:40.699
meet, you won't unfortunately, but when we go

01:00:40.699 --> 01:00:44.809
to Yellowstone, Wyoming. the one it's both of

01:00:44.809 --> 01:00:46.289
them that you will talk to you've met you the

01:00:46.289 --> 01:00:48.949
last time you were awesome yeah yeah i you know

01:00:48.949 --> 01:00:52.230
uh we are going to interview uh one or both of

01:00:52.230 --> 01:00:53.769
the rangers that are traveling with you they

01:00:53.769 --> 01:00:55.429
were going to be here today but unfortunately

01:00:55.429 --> 01:00:57.590
they got hung up they're still in they're on

01:00:57.590 --> 01:01:02.429
travel on route now i think okay uh and that's

01:01:02.429 --> 01:01:03.949
going to be we're going to we're going to dial

01:01:03.949 --> 01:01:13.889
in oh boy Oh, there's an O. It's an O at the

01:01:13.889 --> 01:01:15.710
end. I didn't have my reading glass. There's

01:01:15.710 --> 01:01:18.769
so many consonants and very few vowels in that

01:01:18.769 --> 01:01:22.690
word. Nkatiko. Nkatiko Mazimba. And then who's

01:01:22.690 --> 01:01:27.329
the other ranger? Collet Ngobeni. Both are sergeants,

01:01:27.449 --> 01:01:29.190
senior sergeants, actually. And they remember

01:01:29.190 --> 01:01:32.190
me. Oh, yeah. That's awesome. They remember Mike,

01:01:32.269 --> 01:01:34.909
as well. They've got a really good memory. You

01:01:34.909 --> 01:01:36.530
know, if I see somebody on that landscape, here's

01:01:36.530 --> 01:01:39.949
the thing with doing the Bobby on the beat style,

01:01:40.130 --> 01:01:43.909
patrols. I've been there 20 years and then I

01:01:43.909 --> 01:01:45.829
see a car coming down the road and I have to

01:01:45.829 --> 01:01:47.909
phone or call on the radio and say, who's that?

01:01:47.969 --> 01:01:49.489
And they'll say, no, that's Mrs. Jones. She's

01:01:49.489 --> 01:01:51.510
going to town. Every Monday she goes to town

01:01:51.510 --> 01:01:53.769
at this time to have tea with Mr. Jones or whatever.

01:01:53.969 --> 01:01:55.429
And you don't remember. I don't have a cooking

01:01:55.429 --> 01:01:58.349
clue who that is. But that's why it's really

01:01:58.349 --> 01:02:01.010
important for them to build up that institutional

01:02:01.010 --> 01:02:03.960
knowledge of their beat. Imagine if I was switching

01:02:03.960 --> 01:02:06.019
around and you know a lot of other ranger stations

01:02:06.019 --> 01:02:09.579
will change around randomly so that the poachers

01:02:09.579 --> 01:02:13.179
don't get friendly with the Rangers and vice

01:02:13.179 --> 01:02:17.079
versa, you know, but for me it has to be consistent

01:02:17.079 --> 01:02:19.659
Yeah, I need consistency the downside to that

01:02:19.659 --> 01:02:21.780
is you lose kind of an institutional knowledge

01:02:21.780 --> 01:02:24.639
of what's going on by the Ranger on the Ranger

01:02:24.639 --> 01:02:28.659
Yes, like the Ranger knows that's mrs. Yes versus

01:02:29.039 --> 01:02:31.079
So they're not wasting their time on us. I know.

01:02:31.340 --> 01:02:34.099
But you know, imagine if, because to, you know,

01:02:34.179 --> 01:02:37.420
Ed, our biggest problem with rhino poaching is

01:02:37.420 --> 01:02:38.880
corruption. You asked that question right in

01:02:38.880 --> 01:02:41.079
the beginning. Why did it start up again? You

01:02:41.079 --> 01:02:43.340
know, and you've got to ask yourself another

01:02:43.340 --> 01:02:46.219
question. Why is it only in the Kruger National

01:02:46.219 --> 01:02:49.719
Park? Well, is it though? Well, there's no other

01:02:49.719 --> 01:02:52.980
national park that has been targeted. What about

01:02:52.980 --> 01:02:55.380
across, what's the park over in Mozambique? That's

01:02:55.380 --> 01:02:59.030
part of the Kruger system. Yeah. Okay. its open

01:02:59.030 --> 01:03:01.250
system. Yeah, that's interesting. So you're saying

01:03:01.250 --> 01:03:03.170
that the poaching is heavier in Kruger than it

01:03:03.170 --> 01:03:05.750
is because of the corruption. And it's an elephant

01:03:05.750 --> 01:03:08.269
in the room. Nobody wants to talk about it. It

01:03:08.269 --> 01:03:10.550
makes me very unpopular, but somebody has to

01:03:10.550 --> 01:03:13.750
say it. The corruption is killing the wildlife.

01:03:13.949 --> 01:03:16.150
It's leaving our borders because of corrupt border

01:03:16.150 --> 01:03:19.010
control officials. It's being poached because

01:03:19.010 --> 01:03:22.510
of corrupt rangers and their senior managers.

01:03:23.150 --> 01:03:25.909
You know, the police are losing dockets or just

01:03:25.909 --> 01:03:29.949
not being interested. The whole thing is a bundle

01:03:29.949 --> 01:03:32.829
of, we all know South Africa has got a problem

01:03:32.829 --> 01:03:36.650
with corruption. Yes. We will win the corruption

01:03:36.650 --> 01:03:39.329
Olympics. And we will take the gold, silver,

01:03:39.510 --> 01:03:41.269
and bronze. I don't know about that. There's

01:03:41.269 --> 01:03:42.929
some countries in southern Africa that might

01:03:42.929 --> 01:03:44.929
give you a run for your money. You're right,

01:03:45.349 --> 01:03:47.670
but even if we don't win the gold, silver, and

01:03:47.670 --> 01:03:49.269
bronze, we'll probably take them anyway. You'll

01:03:49.269 --> 01:03:53.840
be like, oh, there you go. There you go, you

01:03:53.840 --> 01:03:56.739
will take them anyway regardless of whether somebody

01:03:56.739 --> 01:04:00.039
beats you yeah, that's you know It's worth talking

01:04:00.039 --> 01:04:02.000
about because I was there for only you've been

01:04:02.000 --> 01:04:04.139
there a long time your whole life I was only

01:04:04.139 --> 01:04:06.619
there for five years and I dealt with corruption

01:04:06.619 --> 01:04:09.019
every day and I was a federal law enforcement

01:04:09.019 --> 01:04:11.320
officer from the United States and they knew

01:04:11.320 --> 01:04:13.579
I was a federal law enforcement from the United

01:04:13.579 --> 01:04:17.119
States and I still had to Deal with it. Yeah,

01:04:17.219 --> 01:04:19.840
you know when I was trying to to collaborate

01:04:19.840 --> 01:04:22.840
with a law enforcement officer in South Africa

01:04:22.840 --> 01:04:24.840
or Mozambique or Botswana, you know, Botswana

01:04:24.840 --> 01:04:27.280
and Namibia are a little better, but you know,

01:04:27.380 --> 01:04:29.900
Zimbabwe, you know. Oh man, it's a pandemic in

01:04:29.900 --> 01:04:32.619
sub -Saharan. You always have to be aware. that

01:04:32.619 --> 01:04:35.059
it could come into play, right? And that's not

01:04:35.059 --> 01:04:38.059
something I was used to before I worked overseas.

01:04:38.400 --> 01:04:40.059
And you know, and there's a big difference between

01:04:40.059 --> 01:04:42.300
the private sector and the public sector. So

01:04:42.300 --> 01:04:45.380
my ranges, and I've got my armed response to

01:04:45.380 --> 01:04:47.119
back the Mambas up, you know, I can't just leave

01:04:47.119 --> 01:04:49.139
them to the wolves. No, I mean, that's why eyes

01:04:49.139 --> 01:04:50.940
and ears are there to call if they see something.

01:04:51.500 --> 01:04:54.639
Absolutely. But my investment goes into the Mambas,

01:04:55.139 --> 01:04:57.340
the armed guards. Yeah, exactly. You know, I've

01:04:57.340 --> 01:04:59.260
got a handful of armed guards now where it used

01:04:59.260 --> 01:05:02.210
to be majority. armed interest in one or two

01:05:02.210 --> 01:05:04.590
admin offices, you know, it's the other bar graph

01:05:04.590 --> 01:05:07.190
is totally different. But what I was going to

01:05:07.190 --> 01:05:11.929
tell you is that the integrity and the accountability

01:05:11.929 --> 01:05:15.650
in the private sector is 10 times higher than

01:05:15.650 --> 01:05:18.329
it is in the public sector, because my members

01:05:18.329 --> 01:05:20.710
volunteer for polygraph tests every year. Nice.

01:05:20.909 --> 01:05:23.139
Yeah, they're doing them now. Nice. Actually,

01:05:23.179 --> 01:05:24.900
whilst I'm sitting here hiding, because I'm scared

01:05:24.900 --> 01:05:28.639
I'll get caught. You're conveniently gone during

01:05:28.639 --> 01:05:30.340
lie detector week. Is that what I'm hearing?

01:05:30.800 --> 01:05:33.400
Very conveniently. But don't worry, when I get

01:05:33.400 --> 01:05:36.519
back I'll have to do it. It's not, yeah. You

01:05:36.519 --> 01:05:40.039
have secrets that are not related to rhino poaching.

01:05:40.159 --> 01:05:42.519
That's true, absolutely. Don't open that closet.

01:05:44.360 --> 01:05:46.340
All those skeletons that will come falling out.

01:05:46.619 --> 01:05:49.059
And you pay, the black mambas are paid, right?

01:05:49.289 --> 01:05:51.610
Paid well, very well, because I want this to

01:05:51.610 --> 01:05:55.070
be a career choice. Which brings me to, I think,

01:05:55.889 --> 01:05:59.989
tell us more about the the TransFrontier Africa

01:05:59.989 --> 01:06:03.610
NGO and how do you raise money to pay your mambas?

01:06:03.829 --> 01:06:07.150
Yeah, thanks Ed for asking that question. I dance

01:06:07.150 --> 01:06:10.829
under a street light in the little town of Huitzpirit.

01:06:14.530 --> 01:06:16.630
It's hard, it's one of the toughest things is

01:06:16.630 --> 01:06:18.329
to raise the money for this, because we made

01:06:18.329 --> 01:06:21.710
a deal with Ulifant's West many years ago, when

01:06:21.710 --> 01:06:24.510
they appointed me as the warden there, 20 years

01:06:24.510 --> 01:06:28.090
ago, I made them a deal that I would take them

01:06:28.090 --> 01:06:32.000
away from trophy hunting, because... I believe

01:06:32.000 --> 01:06:35.139
trophy hunting is stimulating the, or muddying

01:06:35.139 --> 01:06:37.920
the waters with the local community as to what

01:06:37.920 --> 01:06:40.980
is right and what is wrong. Yep, how can a white

01:06:40.980 --> 01:06:43.539
guy come in and kill an elephant and I can't?

01:06:43.840 --> 01:06:47.679
Yeah, I get it, I get it. If I'm going to do

01:06:47.679 --> 01:06:50.420
this job, and I want to protect this wildlife

01:06:50.420 --> 01:06:53.860
from poaching, I have to stop the trophy hunting.

01:06:54.460 --> 01:06:56.960
And I must have a non -consumptive industry,

01:06:57.139 --> 01:07:00.079
so I have a tourism industry with 14 commercial

01:07:00.079 --> 01:07:02.360
lodges, very high -end commercial lodges, you

01:07:02.360 --> 01:07:05.500
know, the freaking five stars, six stars, that

01:07:05.500 --> 01:07:08.909
kind of thing on the landscape. That's... that's

01:07:08.909 --> 01:07:11.070
what keeps the landscape going. But for the things

01:07:11.070 --> 01:07:12.510
like the Black Mambas, and you know we've got

01:07:12.510 --> 01:07:14.289
the Bush Babies program, so the Mambas are teaching

01:07:14.289 --> 01:07:16.710
in schools, and they've got 2 ,000 kids, 11 primary

01:07:16.710 --> 01:07:18.909
schools, full -time resource center, they've

01:07:18.909 --> 01:07:20.809
got scout troops running in the communities,

01:07:20.969 --> 01:07:22.909
anything to keep the kids engaged. That's what

01:07:22.909 --> 01:07:24.650
you're calling the Bush Baby program? Yeah, we

01:07:24.650 --> 01:07:26.210
call that the Bush Babies, yeah. Bush Babies,

01:07:26.329 --> 01:07:28.210
a little tiny little cool little. Absolutely,

01:07:28.349 --> 01:07:29.690
it's a little primate. It's a little primate,

01:07:29.849 --> 01:07:32.750
yeah. It is, yeah. Cutest animal in the world.

01:07:32.869 --> 01:07:34.690
We don't want anybody to know how cute they are,

01:07:34.710 --> 01:07:36.150
because they'll start trafficking in them. If

01:07:36.150 --> 01:07:39.940
they aren't already. So yeah, okay, so the Bush

01:07:39.940 --> 01:07:41.920
Babies is kind of an offshoot of the Black Mambas,

01:07:41.980 --> 01:07:44.639
but it's focused on childhood education. That's

01:07:44.639 --> 01:07:47.239
right. Okay. Maybe Katie, you're gonna talk about

01:07:47.239 --> 01:07:49.199
that? Yeah, yeah. We'll get Katie on here. We'll

01:07:49.199 --> 01:07:53.320
get her on here in a second. Anything you do

01:07:53.320 --> 01:07:57.699
in this world should be measured. Otherwise,

01:07:57.780 --> 01:07:59.960
you can't change anything. How do you know if

01:07:59.960 --> 01:08:01.900
you're being effective by deploying the black

01:08:01.900 --> 01:08:04.519
mambas, for example? I know because I track their

01:08:04.519 --> 01:08:07.380
performance and I will go out and let off a gunshot

01:08:07.380 --> 01:08:09.780
at nighttime and see how they respond. We will

01:08:09.780 --> 01:08:11.639
lay tracks down with a flip -flop on the end

01:08:11.639 --> 01:08:15.300
of a pole as we drive and wait for them to detect

01:08:15.300 --> 01:08:16.760
them and respond. I know what their detection

01:08:16.760 --> 01:08:19.680
rates are. I know what their freaking reporting

01:08:19.680 --> 01:08:22.319
status is, whatever. Their response, everything.

01:08:22.779 --> 01:08:25.079
You have to measure, I even take snares that

01:08:25.079 --> 01:08:27.579
they've collected, put a little dot of nail varnish

01:08:27.579 --> 01:08:29.600
on it, and then I can hide the snares all over

01:08:29.600 --> 01:08:32.600
the landscape again, like a poach. And then I

01:08:32.600 --> 01:08:35.020
can use a clever little statistical model to

01:08:35.020 --> 01:08:37.020
see what the rate of detection on snares is.

01:08:37.020 --> 01:08:38.939
Nice, look at you. Which is why they go back

01:08:38.939 --> 01:08:41.739
three times to one place, because you're missing

01:08:41.739 --> 01:08:44.739
a lot. If they find one snare, you must know

01:08:44.739 --> 01:08:48.680
there's three, minimum. So anyway, anything you

01:08:48.680 --> 01:08:50.239
do, you have to be able to measure whether you're

01:08:50.239 --> 01:08:52.340
being successful or not. And it's the same with

01:08:52.340 --> 01:08:53.979
the Bush Babies program. Otherwise, I'm taking

01:08:53.979 --> 01:08:55.739
donor funding and I'm flinging it down a big

01:08:55.739 --> 01:08:57.619
hole while I'm entertaining a bunch of kids with

01:08:57.619 --> 01:09:00.859
soccer matches and puppet shows. Am I changing

01:09:00.859 --> 01:09:03.920
perceptions? Am I changing value systems? Am

01:09:03.920 --> 01:09:08.119
I actually being effective in any way? So that's

01:09:08.119 --> 01:09:10.640
why the partnership that we have with the Living

01:09:10.640 --> 01:09:13.600
Desert, where we're sitting now, and Katie, it's

01:09:13.600 --> 01:09:15.520
so critical because they have the skills. She's

01:09:15.520 --> 01:09:17.779
a scientist and she comes out and she's developed

01:09:17.779 --> 01:09:19.800
this fantastic protocol and she'll tell you all

01:09:19.800 --> 01:09:22.920
about it if you ask her nicely. Yeah, let's bring

01:09:22.920 --> 01:09:25.260
Katie in real quick. Let me turn your mic on

01:09:25.260 --> 01:09:28.659
here, Katie. Give me a testing one, two, three

01:09:28.659 --> 01:09:34.220
here. Nope. Okay, so also with us, so we mentioned

01:09:34.220 --> 01:09:37.340
is Katie Shaw from the Living Desert. She's a

01:09:37.340 --> 01:09:41.199
conservation social scientist out here. Welcome,

01:09:41.239 --> 01:09:43.600
Katie. Thanks for Joining us at the last minute

01:09:43.600 --> 01:09:46.539
and unexpectedly you were not prepared for this

01:09:46.539 --> 01:09:48.840
were you not at all, but thanks for having me

01:09:48.840 --> 01:09:51.180
I appreciate it. No, it's great. It's a great

01:09:51.180 --> 01:09:54.840
addition. Tell me about or tell us about the

01:09:54.840 --> 01:09:57.090
living desert. What is it? And I'm sure I didn't

01:09:57.090 --> 01:10:00.810
describe it right. No, it's a zoo and botanical

01:10:00.810 --> 01:10:04.210
garden in Southern California. But we have a

01:10:04.210 --> 01:10:08.189
whole conservation department. So we do conservation

01:10:08.189 --> 01:10:10.590
off grounds at various sites around Southern

01:10:10.590 --> 01:10:13.350
California and then with partners across Southern

01:10:13.350 --> 01:10:17.430
and Eastern Africa. And as Craig mentions, a

01:10:17.430 --> 01:10:23.550
newer project in Mongolia. Cool. Boy, I'd love

01:10:23.550 --> 01:10:25.810
to talk to you about Mongolia sometimes. Yeah,

01:10:25.810 --> 01:10:29.310
all the species there So how does the living

01:10:29.310 --> 01:10:31.850
desert get itself connected to trans frontier

01:10:31.850 --> 01:10:37.920
Africa and this crazy job? We've been partnered

01:10:37.920 --> 01:10:41.699
for what eight years now, I believe it's yeah,

01:10:41.840 --> 01:10:45.439
it's been quite a long partnership. We've done

01:10:45.439 --> 01:10:49.539
two social impact studies on the black mambas

01:10:49.539 --> 01:10:52.579
and bush babies programs in local communities.

01:10:53.180 --> 01:10:58.399
And then more recently, we did a my Colleague

01:10:58.399 --> 01:11:02.220
Dr. James Danoff -Berg and I did a social science

01:11:02.220 --> 01:11:05.220
workshop where we teach foundational social science

01:11:05.220 --> 01:11:10.880
skills and tools and helped the Bush babies educators

01:11:10.880 --> 01:11:14.039
create evaluations for their environmental education

01:11:14.039 --> 01:11:17.739
program. We wanted to make sure that We weren't

01:11:17.739 --> 01:11:20.220
just measuring if the kids were able to recite

01:11:20.220 --> 01:11:22.640
facts that they had picked up, but make sure

01:11:22.640 --> 01:11:25.619
they were having real impacts. Are they changing

01:11:25.619 --> 01:11:28.640
attitudes? Are they changing behavioral intentions?

01:11:29.880 --> 01:11:32.220
What are the actual impacts that this program

01:11:32.220 --> 01:11:36.399
is having? Very cool, so yeah. So Living Desert

01:11:36.399 --> 01:11:39.420
is able to help Craig kind of with some of the

01:11:39.420 --> 01:11:41.380
things he was talking about with measuring success

01:11:41.380 --> 01:11:44.399
and whether or not, how things are working, right?

01:11:44.399 --> 01:11:49.659
Yes. What about financially. Is there any connection

01:11:49.659 --> 01:11:52.560
there? Do you assist with some of the... Yeah,

01:11:52.859 --> 01:11:55.859
we're part of the Black Mamba Alliance, which

01:11:55.859 --> 01:11:59.180
is a network of largely zoos, but some other

01:11:59.180 --> 01:12:04.020
organizations that are regular funders of the

01:12:04.020 --> 01:12:07.520
Black Mambas and help provide salary funding

01:12:07.520 --> 01:12:10.779
for Black Mambas. Very, very cool. Okay. And

01:12:10.779 --> 01:12:13.460
how often have you been to Olefans? I've been

01:12:13.460 --> 01:12:15.960
out there twice. It's a cool place. It's amazing.

01:12:16.500 --> 01:12:21.539
Yeah, very cool. Great. Is there anything that

01:12:21.539 --> 01:12:23.960
you want people to know about the living desert

01:12:23.960 --> 01:12:26.760
or how my listeners can, you know, visit here?

01:12:26.899 --> 01:12:28.640
It's Palm Desert, California, which is near Palm

01:12:28.640 --> 01:12:30.800
Springs, right? It's open to the public. Yep.

01:12:30.880 --> 01:12:34.560
Come see us if you're in the area. We're a really

01:12:34.560 --> 01:12:39.510
neat place. Have a fantastic... habitats and

01:12:39.510 --> 01:12:42.010
animals here and then again do a lot of conservation

01:12:42.010 --> 01:12:45.270
work and coming to visit us supports that and

01:12:45.270 --> 01:12:47.609
helps us support our other partners like Transfrontier

01:12:47.609 --> 01:12:51.989
Africa. Fantastic. I think, you know, I want

01:12:51.989 --> 01:12:55.569
to raise something with both you guys real quick

01:12:55.569 --> 01:12:58.930
and then we'll close it out. We'll actually close

01:12:58.930 --> 01:13:01.319
it out with both. We'll close out with Craig,

01:13:01.479 --> 01:13:03.380
but give both of you a chance to talk about this.

01:13:04.000 --> 01:13:06.420
I want to know kind of from your perspective,

01:13:07.920 --> 01:13:10.500
you know, I have listeners all over the world

01:13:10.500 --> 01:13:14.619
actually, a lot in Africa, but most of them are

01:13:14.619 --> 01:13:17.859
from the US or North America anyway. What can

01:13:17.859 --> 01:13:24.560
an American do to help, you know, support conservation

01:13:24.560 --> 01:13:26.859
in Southern Africa or support the black mambas

01:13:26.859 --> 01:13:29.350
or what you guys are trying to do? I'll start

01:13:29.350 --> 01:13:35.010
with you, Katie. Sure. I mean, of course, any

01:13:35.010 --> 01:13:39.369
financial support is a huge support. There's

01:13:39.369 --> 01:13:42.850
never -ending costs that come with running programs

01:13:42.850 --> 01:13:46.949
like the Black Mambas, all of the gear, the equipment,

01:13:47.149 --> 01:13:50.010
the patrol vehicles that they need, but also

01:13:50.010 --> 01:13:53.670
for the Bush babies as well. But beyond that,

01:13:54.350 --> 01:13:56.949
spread the word, spread awareness, talk to your

01:13:56.949 --> 01:13:59.649
friends and family. Make sure you know what you're

01:13:59.649 --> 01:14:02.649
buying when you shop, so you are not inadvertently

01:14:02.649 --> 01:14:07.689
supporting any illegal trafficking. And yeah,

01:14:07.770 --> 01:14:10.869
just become an informed citizen. Yeah, awesome.

01:14:11.329 --> 01:14:13.930
That's a great message. Craig, what are your

01:14:13.930 --> 01:14:16.130
thoughts on the same question? Yeah, thanks.

01:14:17.109 --> 01:14:19.569
It's a question we get asked quite a lot. And

01:14:19.569 --> 01:14:23.050
I always say, everybody has a responsibility

01:14:23.050 --> 01:14:27.800
to be a conservationist. And that means you must

01:14:27.800 --> 01:14:30.479
make a sacrifice of some sorts. You either sacrifice

01:14:30.479 --> 01:14:34.020
your time or you compromise your lifestyle or

01:14:34.020 --> 01:14:37.380
you donate something to whatever project it is

01:14:37.380 --> 01:14:41.619
that stimulates you. But we all have that obligation.

01:14:41.720 --> 01:14:44.819
We are users of this planet, occupants of this

01:14:44.819 --> 01:14:48.279
planet. So if somebody's living in the United

01:14:48.279 --> 01:14:50.460
States and you find the Black Mamba program,

01:14:50.640 --> 01:14:53.100
and we do live 100 % off donations, we have no

01:14:53.100 --> 01:14:56.810
other source of income. So yeah, I would say

01:14:56.810 --> 01:15:00.409
reach out. You can donate through our partners,

01:15:00.729 --> 01:15:03.229
like the Living Desert, for example. You know,

01:15:03.250 --> 01:15:05.090
they've been incredibly good to us. Rhino Mercy

01:15:05.090 --> 01:15:08.010
is another one. In fact, my directors are from

01:15:08.010 --> 01:15:10.409
the United States. Dr. Tom Tochtemann is in Seattle.

01:15:10.470 --> 01:15:13.470
Awesome. Yeah, and he should be here, but he's

01:15:13.470 --> 01:15:15.609
not because he's having an operation. We've been

01:15:15.609 --> 01:15:18.369
friends for years. He was the guy that sat with

01:15:18.369 --> 01:15:21.369
me at the fire and drank all my rum. and came

01:15:21.369 --> 01:15:24.590
up with the idea of the Black Mambas. Together,

01:15:24.750 --> 01:15:26.390
both of us. And Captain Morgan said there were

01:15:26.390 --> 01:15:30.909
three of us. Yeah. Very cool. And he's the director

01:15:30.909 --> 01:15:34.149
of the company. So I want to tell a funny story.

01:15:34.430 --> 01:15:36.670
Not a funny story. Actually, this is not a funny

01:15:36.670 --> 01:15:39.430
story. It was a very important story to me in

01:15:39.430 --> 01:15:42.979
my career, and it relates to Africa. You know

01:15:42.979 --> 01:15:45.199
when I of course when I was a special agent I

01:15:45.199 --> 01:15:47.300
liaisoned with a lot of different law enforcement

01:15:47.300 --> 01:15:49.140
agencies all over the world and all over the

01:15:49.140 --> 01:15:51.960
United States and one of the meetings I was at

01:15:51.960 --> 01:15:54.960
once I was with a supervisory law enforcement

01:15:54.960 --> 01:15:58.279
officer from the state of New York and He was

01:15:58.279 --> 01:16:00.699
in charge of their undercover unit or their special,

01:16:00.699 --> 01:16:03.380
you know investigations unit and at the time

01:16:03.840 --> 01:16:06.340
their officers were going into downtown New York

01:16:06.340 --> 01:16:08.520
City and they were finding all these shops that

01:16:08.520 --> 01:16:10.699
were selling elephant ivory. And it's illegal

01:16:10.699 --> 01:16:13.039
to sell elephant ivory in the state of New York.

01:16:13.920 --> 01:16:15.939
So aside from what the federal law is, it's a

01:16:15.939 --> 01:16:17.920
violation of New York law to do that. So they

01:16:17.920 --> 01:16:21.359
were making these cases of elephant ivory in

01:16:21.359 --> 01:16:25.279
downtown New York City. And what was important

01:16:25.279 --> 01:16:29.920
to me about this story is I think it was a state

01:16:29.920 --> 01:16:33.710
legislator, you know, an elected lawmaker from

01:16:33.710 --> 01:16:35.350
the state of New York, or maybe it was somebody

01:16:35.350 --> 01:16:37.930
from the Wildlife Commission, or somebody who

01:16:37.930 --> 01:16:42.689
was above this wildlife officer, really questioned

01:16:42.689 --> 01:16:45.750
him at a public meeting. Like, why are our officers

01:16:45.750 --> 01:16:48.569
spending time on African elephant ivory? Why

01:16:48.569 --> 01:16:50.430
aren't you out there? Wow. Yeah, why aren't you

01:16:50.430 --> 01:16:52.710
enforcing laws related to species that are native

01:16:52.710 --> 01:16:55.750
to New York? And this officer, he didn't miss

01:16:55.750 --> 01:16:59.029
a beat. He responded to that person who outranked

01:16:59.029 --> 01:17:04.340
him by quite a bit. He said this. He said, sir,

01:17:05.119 --> 01:17:09.300
in Africa, there are rangers in the field right

01:17:09.300 --> 01:17:13.020
now, you know, risking their lives to protect

01:17:13.020 --> 01:17:15.699
elephants and rhinos and penguins and whatever.

01:17:16.680 --> 01:17:19.340
And there are rangers being killed every day

01:17:19.340 --> 01:17:22.279
in that pursuit. And I'll be damned if the people

01:17:22.279 --> 01:17:24.899
of New York are gonna contribute to that. Fantastic.

01:17:24.979 --> 01:17:27.670
Yeah. Give that man a beer. Or how about a Captain

01:17:27.670 --> 01:17:31.829
Morgan? Or a Bells. No, but that's exactly the

01:17:31.829 --> 01:17:34.329
attitude we should be adopting. Yeah, think globally.

01:17:34.689 --> 01:17:37.310
It's a global problem. Sure. Yeah. Because we

01:17:37.310 --> 01:17:40.539
would want them to do the same. you know, we

01:17:40.539 --> 01:17:44.800
had an issue with, you know, selling bald eagles

01:17:44.800 --> 01:17:46.920
in Pretoria, we would want some help, right?

01:17:47.640 --> 01:17:49.079
Yeah, I know that gives me chills, actually.

01:17:49.359 --> 01:17:51.359
Yeah, me too. Good for that guy. I'll tell you,

01:17:51.380 --> 01:17:54.340
I never forgot it because often we do get questioned

01:17:54.340 --> 01:17:57.239
about why does the United States care about rhinos?

01:17:57.260 --> 01:17:59.659
They don't live in the United States. Because.

01:18:00.579 --> 01:18:02.359
Because you guys are the leaders of the first

01:18:02.359 --> 01:18:05.619
world anyway, you know, and you can't hold that

01:18:05.619 --> 01:18:08.449
position. and try to influence global policy

01:18:08.449 --> 01:18:09.829
and what have you, and then turn a blind eye

01:18:09.829 --> 01:18:11.869
to that kind of stuff going on. You can't cherry

01:18:11.869 --> 01:18:14.649
pick. You know, it's all or nothing. I'll tell

01:18:14.649 --> 01:18:18.050
you another story. When I was in Africa, if you're

01:18:18.050 --> 01:18:20.569
in a room of Africans and you say, hey, how many

01:18:20.569 --> 01:18:22.970
people have come to the United States? Very few

01:18:22.970 --> 01:18:25.890
people will raise their hands. You know, you

01:18:25.890 --> 01:18:28.029
might be the only one in the room. Not very many.

01:18:28.590 --> 01:18:30.529
If you say, how many people would like to come

01:18:30.529 --> 01:18:32.609
to the United States? Everybody. Everybody. And

01:18:32.609 --> 01:18:35.250
then I say, if you do come, would you like me

01:18:35.250 --> 01:18:37.229
to take you to Yellowstone National Park to see

01:18:37.229 --> 01:18:39.350
a grizzly bear in the wild? How many people would

01:18:39.350 --> 01:18:42.229
like to do that? Everybody, right? Yeah. Same

01:18:42.229 --> 01:18:44.569
is true if you were to talk to a group of Americans

01:18:44.569 --> 01:18:47.329
and say, have you ever been to Botswana or South

01:18:47.329 --> 01:18:49.250
Africa? Probably a few people would raise their

01:18:49.250 --> 01:18:50.890
hand. Would you like to go? Everybody would.

01:18:51.149 --> 01:18:52.869
While you're there, would you like to see a rhino

01:18:52.869 --> 01:18:55.810
in the wild? Everybody. So we protect these animals

01:18:55.810 --> 01:18:59.770
not only for our own citizens, but for people

01:18:59.770 --> 01:19:01.369
in other parts of the world, because we want

01:19:01.369 --> 01:19:03.810
them to come to our country and spend money to

01:19:03.810 --> 01:19:06.529
see these animals. It meant we're a global community

01:19:06.529 --> 01:19:10.529
now. It sounds like a baloney kind of kumbaya

01:19:10.529 --> 01:19:13.210
thing, but it's true. It is true. We are a part

01:19:13.210 --> 01:19:15.550
of a global community. We share resources. We

01:19:15.550 --> 01:19:19.010
sell things to each other. We have moral obligations.

01:19:19.210 --> 01:19:21.069
It doesn't have to even be a legal obligation.

01:19:21.350 --> 01:19:23.699
It's still a moral obligation. And thinking like

01:19:23.699 --> 01:19:25.859
a black mamba, you're thinking five, six steps

01:19:25.859 --> 01:19:28.180
down the road. Of course, it benefits people

01:19:28.180 --> 01:19:30.619
of the United States to have wild rhinos, just

01:19:30.619 --> 01:19:32.840
as it benefits people in South Africa to have

01:19:32.840 --> 01:19:36.819
wild grizzly bears. You know, the Rangers, you

01:19:36.819 --> 01:19:38.279
touched on something that's very close to my

01:19:38.279 --> 01:19:41.720
heart. The Rangers, they deal with the level

01:19:41.720 --> 01:19:44.619
one criminals every day. They're not dealing

01:19:44.619 --> 01:19:48.020
with the syndicates, the mules, the couriers,

01:19:48.140 --> 01:19:52.239
whatever. they work under the worst possible

01:19:52.239 --> 01:19:56.100
conditions you can imagine and All they can do

01:19:56.100 --> 01:19:59.180
is buy time Mm -hmm for the species that they're

01:19:59.180 --> 01:20:01.819
protecting right the real changes are going to

01:20:01.819 --> 01:20:05.060
happen At the level that you are with us fisheries

01:20:05.060 --> 01:20:07.520
and wildlife at political intervention level

01:20:07.520 --> 01:20:12.090
You know cross -border trade agreements and that

01:20:12.090 --> 01:20:14.149
sort of thing the rangers every day when they

01:20:14.149 --> 01:20:16.390
wake up they're buying time for those animals

01:20:16.390 --> 01:20:20.310
and it's the world's got to catch up they can't

01:20:20.310 --> 01:20:22.369
do it like that forever it's ridiculous yeah

01:20:22.430 --> 01:20:25.930
You know, help them out, you know, throw them

01:20:25.930 --> 01:20:28.729
a bone, you know what I mean? Yes. And hey, maybe

01:20:28.729 --> 01:20:32.170
maybe we should close it up with a African proverb

01:20:32.170 --> 01:20:34.130
that's actually listed on your website. And I

01:20:34.130 --> 01:20:35.909
heard many times and you will have heard many

01:20:35.909 --> 01:20:38.149
times. But, you know, if you want to go fast,

01:20:38.189 --> 01:20:40.130
go alone. And if you want to go far and go together,

01:20:40.329 --> 01:20:43.869
it applies all over the world. Absolutely. That's

01:20:43.869 --> 01:20:46.090
pretty good. Well, listen, Katie Shaw, thanks

01:20:46.090 --> 01:20:49.100
for joining us. Craig Spencer. I have been looking

01:20:49.100 --> 01:20:51.640
forward to this interview for so long. I am just

01:20:51.640 --> 01:20:54.560
so excited that we got to see each other again

01:20:54.560 --> 01:20:56.479
and have you on this show. It's going to be one

01:20:56.479 --> 01:20:58.739
of the most popular episodes I think so far.

01:20:59.359 --> 01:21:01.579
Thank you so much. If anybody is interested in

01:21:01.579 --> 01:21:05.939
learning more about the living desert or transfer

01:21:05.939 --> 01:21:09.479
into your Africa. You can reach out to me through

01:21:09.479 --> 01:21:12.680
my website at naturessecretservice .com and I'd

01:21:12.680 --> 01:21:14.880
be happy to put you in touch with Craig and or

01:21:14.880 --> 01:21:18.380
Katie so we can do that easily. Thanks everybody

01:21:18.380 --> 01:21:20.640
for tuning in. We'll see you next time. Thank

01:21:20.640 --> 01:21:22.600
you very much, Ed. See you in the bush next time.

01:21:22.920 --> 01:21:25.039
Yes, we'll see you in the bush soon I hope. I

01:21:25.039 --> 01:21:28.859
hope so too. Okay, take care everybody. Nature's

01:21:28.859 --> 01:21:30.939
Secret Service is written and produced by me,

01:21:31.060 --> 01:21:33.829
Ed Newcomer. and is co -produced by the DHTV

01:21:33.829 --> 01:21:36.750
team here at California State University Dominguez

01:21:36.750 --> 01:21:39.010
Hills. Follow us on social media and connect

01:21:39.010 --> 01:21:41.729
with us online at naturessecretservice .com.