WEBVTT

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If you want to learn more about the topics of

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today's episode, visit the podcast website at

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naturessecretservice .com. Thanks for listening.

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Okay, people listen up, here we go. This is Nature's

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Secret Service, the podcast that puts you in

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the room with the men and women of wildlife law

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enforcement. I'm Ed Newcomer, your host, and

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welcome back to the first episode of season two

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of our podcast. With us today, we have an absolutely

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fantastic guest, Todd Vandivert, a former wildlife

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officer with the state of Washington. Todd has

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a really impressive background, and he's got

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just phenomenal stories about his career in wildlife

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law enforcement up in the Pacific Northwest.

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He was a wildlife law enforcement officer for

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the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife,

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forget this, 33 years, which is an extremely

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impressive career in public service. He worked

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first part of his career as a uniform patrol

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officer, and then a second part of his career

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as a plainclothes detective with the Washington

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Department of Fish and Wildlife. You know, in

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addition to that, he did a lot of what we call

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in the business collateral duties, which often

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you're not paid for. It's just, thank you very

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much for your service. But he was a defensive

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tactics instructor, a critical incident peer

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support counselor for the agency, a meth lab

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tech, a certified polygraph examiner. All of

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those things are so valuable to other law enforcement

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officers in his department. And like I said,

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they're often done as collateral duties for no

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pay. He really has an, you know, impressive accolades

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for his career. I mean, he's one of only two

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officers in the state of Washington who received

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the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife

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statewide officer of the year award, not once,

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but twice. And his other awards include... things

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like the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife

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Case of the Year Award, Detective of the Year

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Award, and there's just many others. We could

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have a whole episode about all of the accolades

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that Todd has. One of the coolest ones, though,

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this is what I love. He's believed to be one

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of the first, if not the first, game warden in

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the United States to build and use... a radio

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controlled robotic deer decoy. And in the business,

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what we call those are robo deers. And basically,

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it's a robotic deer you put out in the field,

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it moves, it might wag its tail or move its head.

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And it's designed to test whether or not people

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driving by shoot at it illegally. Good stuff.

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And now, of course, those are used all over the

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country, all over the world. There's robotic

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deer, elk, moose, wolves, cougars. They have

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all types. Bears, yeah, exactly. Anyway, Todd,

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you've had to be quiet while I introduced you,

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but... Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much

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for being on. It's a real pleasure to finally

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meet you kind of virtually in person, but thank

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you for being on. It's my pleasure. I can't wait

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to talk to you today. One of the things I didn't

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mention is that since you retired, you've written

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and published 12 different books related to wildlife

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conservation issues and law enforcement. And

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one of those books is Operation Cody. And that's

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what I want to talk to you about today, because

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I've read Operation Cody now twice, and it always

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struck me as such a really cool case. I don't

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want to give anything away. I want you to tell

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us about it, but tell us a little bit about the

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impetus for your undercover operation called

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Operation Cody. What year did it start, and what

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gave you the idea to develop an operation like

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that? Sure. Every year, there's a conference

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for undercover fish and wildlife officers from

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around the western states and western provinces

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of Canada. And I went to one of those years back

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and there was a guy that was speaking there and

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he was from the East Coast and he had done a

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storefront operation. And for those that don't

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know what a storefront operation is, in the undercover

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world, it's a business that you create hoping

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to entice poachers in this case into deal doing

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business with you and so the guy that presented

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this operation to us at the conference had done

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so as a fish buyer sent up a fish buying business

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and and it was in a state where the sale of sport

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caught fish was illegal and That's that was his

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primary target and it was extremely successful.

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That really got my brain going, but the one part

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of it I didn't really care for was the fact that

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he literally lived at 24 -7. I mean, he lived

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upstairs of the fish business. That's all he

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did. I was a dedicated employee, but I didn't

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want to do that. I've got a family. I just wanted

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to be able to go home once in a while. So I started

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giving a lot of thought to how I could do it

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my way rather than living it like that. And at

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the time, I was running a small business on the

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side selling law enforcement equipment, law enforcement

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and firefighting equipment. And I did that by

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way of the internet, internet sales, all that

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kind of stuff. So I started thinking about that.

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Well, why can't I do that with a wildlife operation?

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Just put up a website and offer to buy and sell

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things that are legal to buy and sell by Washington

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law but might appear tempting to to people who

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are willing to do business illegally that was

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the concept is to make an internet -based business

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and buy and sell hopefully illegal items that

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we could catch the people that were harvesting

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them and selling them. What year was this, Todd?

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2010 is when it really started taking form. Okay.

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And at this time, you were part of, you had transitioned

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from out of a uniformed role into a plain clothes

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detective role. What's the unit there at Washington

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Department of Fish and Wildlife? Is it SIU? Is

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that what they call it? SIU, Statewide Investigative

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Unit. Okay. And so you kind of had to make this

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transition from a person who wore a uniform,

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drove a marked vehicle every day and did patrol

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work and, you know, shorter term investigations.

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Now you're transitioning. into this detective

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work where you can kind of focus on problems

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or issues that you become aware of, right? Right.

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One of the things I always liked about SIU at

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Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife is

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that like at the US Fish and Wildlife Service,

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you guys really focused in on, you know, people

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who were commercializing wildlife. Right. Because,

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you know, that's as I've described in this podcast

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in other episodes, you know, that's that's taking

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it beyond just like the recreational poacher

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who gets a little out of control or goes out

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and kills a deer here and there. You got, you

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know, organized ongoing activity that's designed

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specifically to exploit wildlife, which can really

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add the numbers up. You know, it's kind of interesting.

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I want to talk a little bit just briefly about

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the whole logistics of setting up a business,

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because I did that too in my career and it's

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a huge pain in the butt. But, you know, having

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your patrol experience and now being a detective,

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kind of dialed in with what's going on in patrol,

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it's really valuable because you kind of have

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a sense of what's a problem area? might we need

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to focus our attention, which is really one of

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the reasons I love Operation Cody, because normally

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when we think about, you know, we talk about

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operations, it's usually focused on a particular

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crime network or individual, and we're going

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after that particular group to try to, you know,

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as they say, chop the head off the snake and

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stop that particular group of co -conspirators

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from engaging in criminal activity. but Operation

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Cody was designed to really focus on a broad

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problem. It wasn't focused on an individual,

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it was focused on commercialization and wildlife

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trafficking across species and with multiple

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potential targets, which I really love because

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that is identifying a potential problem within

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the state, coming up with a solution and then

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executing, which is... You don't hear about those

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operations a lot, but they're super effective

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and they're super needed, I think, sometimes.

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But you really wouldn't have thought about it

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if you hadn't been like a former patrol officer

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yourself and in touch with the patrol division

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and kind of understanding, I think there's a

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lot of bad stuff going on here that we need to

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address, right? Did you find that doing Operation

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Cody as an online business, made it a little

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easier for you to kind of control that balance

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between work life and personal life? It did,

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yeah. I still got a lot of phone calls. When

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I set it up, I set up the online presence, but

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I also put an email address down and my phone

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number, my cell phone number. So I, I still got

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a lot of after hour calls and I wasn't that I

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ignore them, you know, so I, I took calls, but,

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um, yeah, it, it was time consuming for sure,

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especially since, and I guess we'll get into

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it in a little bit, but especially since I had

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almost no help. Um, how long did it take you

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to, I mean, were you at all worried? Oh, this

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might not work. I mean, how long did it take

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you before people started to contact you and

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hint that they might be interested in either

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buying or selling illegal wildlife? I can't,

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I can't give you the exact date, but I think

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it was in December of 2010. It was just a couple

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of days after I activated the website, I got

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a call from a guy and first thing out of his

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mouth is do you buy deer? Interesting. And I'm

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like, it's illegal to buy deer. You know, you

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can't do that. That's against the law. And of

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course, he said, I know it's illegal. I'm asking

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you, do you buy it? Are you willing to buy it?

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And so we did the whole conversation about it

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and keeping our mouth shut and all that kind

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of neat stuff. And it was a U .S. Army soldier

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based at Fort Lewis who was, I think, poaching

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the deer on base. And he was a significant poacher.

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I mean, he killed a lot of deer and he sold all

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of them. I mean, the guy didn't even know how

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to gut a deer. He just shot him and sold them.

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So he's selling them for what? The everything,

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the meat, the skin, the antlers? Whatever you

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want to buy them for, I guess. But yeah, primarily

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the meat. Interesting. And for, you know, for

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listeners who don't know the Pacific Northwest,

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there's a huge military base up there. It used

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to be an Air Force base and an army base that

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since merged. Still is. They're merged. Yeah,

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joint base, but it's huge. And there's so much

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property up there, wooded prop, heavily wooded

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property that you could easily poach, poach animals

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right off the base. Nobody'd probably know. Well,

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you dodge the, the, uh, artillery that's coming

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in. Right there. There are some firing ranges

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up there. Anyway, isn't that interesting that

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the first person, so your idea is working. You

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didn't do anything to entrap anybody. You just

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put this out on the website and right away, like

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moths to a flame, the poachers are coming to

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you and gosh, the first one out of the box is

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a U .S. Army soldier who's based at a base. That's

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crazy. So it must have, that must have been reassuring.

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Like, okay, I'm onto something here, right? How

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did it, and for how, like what was your vision?

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How long did you think this operation would go

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on running this business? I had asked for two

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years and the reason I asked for two years was

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twofold. One was I knew it would take a while

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for the word to get out. I mean, you can't just

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throw a website out and hope people will find

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it. You have to do some advertising. You have

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to get the word out. So I knew it would take

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a while for that. The second thing is the statute

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of limitation in Washington for a gross misdemeanor.

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All the crimes that we would be dealing with

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were almost all of them were felony level, but

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some of them were gross misdemeanor. The statute

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of limitation on gross misdemeanor is two years.

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So I figured that way, everything we get, we

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can charge. And so that's what I had asked for.

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That's what the chief told me I could have. It's

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not what we got, but yeah. So you're off and

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running with that. Explain how did you, you talked

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to this guy, this soldier, we'll just talk about

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him first and then we'll get into all the other

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characters you got into. But you, with this soldier

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then, he's admitted to you, he knows it's illegal,

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he's willing to move forward. As an undercover,

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what do you do next? Did you end up buying deer

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from him? We did, yes. He called me in the evening

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and said that, you know, he's got a deer in the

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back of his truck. I wanted to know if I wanted

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to buy it. So after going over the whole conversation

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about the legalities and so forth, I agreed to

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meet him at the north end of the runways at SeaTac

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Airport. OK. I know the area well. OK. And so

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he came driving up, no tail lights on his truck,

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an illegal deer, untagged, closed season, sitting

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in the open of the bed of his pickup truck. Unbelievable.

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That's brazen. And plus, you know, Washington

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State Patrol troopers on I -5 are pretty diligent.

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I'm surprised he didn't get pulled over for the

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tail light issue. Yeah. Well, we had a little

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talk about that. I said, you know, if you and

00:14:53.559 --> 00:14:55.820
I are going to do business, you got to be a little

00:14:55.820 --> 00:14:57.840
bit more careful than that. You know what I mean?

00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:01.639
So yeah, he wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed.

00:15:02.279 --> 00:15:05.940
It wasn't one to, you know, go home and brag

00:15:05.940 --> 00:15:09.379
about. But the guy was a poacher, that's for

00:15:09.379 --> 00:15:12.330
sure. And, and you right there, like, like a

00:15:12.330 --> 00:15:13.830
drug deal right there in the parking lot, you

00:15:13.830 --> 00:15:16.129
did this exchange for an illegal deer right out

00:15:16.129 --> 00:15:18.070
of the back of his truck. Yeah, we literally

00:15:18.070 --> 00:15:20.370
did it right off the end of the runway on the

00:15:20.370 --> 00:15:23.049
side of the, a little pull off of the side road.

00:15:23.490 --> 00:15:26.649
He was not the only person that you were contacted

00:15:26.649 --> 00:15:29.570
who was selling, you know, game meat like deer

00:15:29.570 --> 00:15:34.750
and elk and. No, it became, it became very prevalent.

00:15:34.889 --> 00:15:37.490
And you bought from him more than once, right?

00:15:38.099 --> 00:15:40.419
Yes. So it wasn't like he was just a one time

00:15:40.419 --> 00:15:43.960
guy. He was doing this to make money. Yeah. Who

00:15:43.960 --> 00:15:46.080
were some of the other people that came up initially

00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:48.379
and you know, how did you, how did you work this

00:15:48.379 --> 00:15:50.600
with the partner you had who was only part time?

00:15:50.679 --> 00:15:55.039
How did that play out? Well, obviously we couldn't

00:15:55.039 --> 00:16:00.340
work. Um, we couldn't use Jennifer in the immediate

00:16:00.340 --> 00:16:03.000
area that she's a uniform officer. The one advantage

00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:06.000
she, we had with her is that she had spent her

00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:10.620
whole career in one spot. And so I had moved

00:16:10.620 --> 00:16:13.039
three or four times around the state during my

00:16:13.039 --> 00:16:17.039
career. So, you know, the chances of somebody

00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:19.860
recognizing me were I would think would be higher.

00:16:20.100 --> 00:16:23.220
Although I can change my appearance by, you know,

00:16:23.299 --> 00:16:26.159
I grew long hair, had a ponytail and a beard.

00:16:27.960 --> 00:16:29.940
Women are kind of limited on how much they can

00:16:29.940 --> 00:16:33.259
change, you know, so we were very conscientious

00:16:33.259 --> 00:16:36.399
about not using or any place that. she might

00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:40.500
be recognized, but other than that, we knew each

00:16:40.500 --> 00:16:42.259
other really well. We've been friends a long

00:16:42.259 --> 00:16:45.659
time. So we, uh, you know, we could walk the

00:16:45.659 --> 00:16:51.500
talk, you know, um, we, it's, it's difficult

00:16:51.500 --> 00:16:55.740
to fake that you're in a long -term relationship

00:16:55.740 --> 00:16:59.440
with somebody without knowing a lot about them.

00:16:59.940 --> 00:17:03.019
So exactly. And having a certain, you know, camaraderie

00:17:03.019 --> 00:17:05.119
off of each other, but So that worked out. You

00:17:05.119 --> 00:17:08.339
knew her well, right? Yes. Yeah. How long did

00:17:08.339 --> 00:17:10.039
it take you for things to really get rolling?

00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:13.039
You had this first soldier and then, then how

00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:15.339
did it play out? How many, what other kinds of

00:17:15.339 --> 00:17:18.099
characters came, came calling? Well, we did a

00:17:18.099 --> 00:17:23.079
couple things to get customers. One is did a

00:17:23.079 --> 00:17:25.339
little bit of advertising, you know, made business

00:17:25.339 --> 00:17:27.500
cards and brochures and we spread them all over

00:17:27.500 --> 00:17:33.950
the place. What we did to get intelligence on

00:17:33.950 --> 00:17:37.289
people that are potentially doing commercialization

00:17:37.289 --> 00:17:40.950
and illegal wildlife was we had the chief put

00:17:40.950 --> 00:17:45.170
out an email to all the regions and say if you

00:17:45.170 --> 00:17:51.529
have information about any potentially illegal

00:17:51.529 --> 00:17:57.509
wildlife trafficking or any form of illegal wildlife

00:17:57.509 --> 00:18:01.549
violations that are commercial related. Send

00:18:01.549 --> 00:18:05.630
the information in and so we got quite a we got

00:18:05.630 --> 00:18:10.670
quite a bit of information from the regions because

00:18:10.670 --> 00:18:13.450
Game wardens all over I mean if you're a state

00:18:13.450 --> 00:18:15.890
game warden for very long you hear all kinds

00:18:15.890 --> 00:18:17.829
of rumors You know and some of them are true

00:18:17.829 --> 00:18:22.490
some of them are not But every game warden in

00:18:22.490 --> 00:18:25.130
the state with much time had something tucked

00:18:25.130 --> 00:18:26.950
away in their memory or in the back of their

00:18:26.950 --> 00:18:28.670
notebook or something about, you know, a guy

00:18:28.670 --> 00:18:30.470
came up and said, hey, I went into a grocery

00:18:30.470 --> 00:18:35.089
store and they asked me this. So we asked for

00:18:35.089 --> 00:18:39.410
that. And as I expected, a couple of the regions

00:18:39.410 --> 00:18:42.410
were very helpful. They sent in a ton of good

00:18:42.410 --> 00:18:45.509
intel. A couple of the regions didn't even reply

00:18:45.509 --> 00:18:48.859
whatsoever. So that was part of it. The other

00:18:48.859 --> 00:18:52.119
part of it was everybody that we did business

00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:54.839
with, and we did a lot of legal business, too.

00:18:55.420 --> 00:18:58.839
Everybody that we did business with, we'd leave

00:18:58.839 --> 00:19:00.599
them with brochures and all that kind of neat

00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:03.940
stuff. And so the word started spreading out.

00:19:04.180 --> 00:19:08.119
But as we got these tips from the uniform officers,

00:19:08.700 --> 00:19:12.599
we would do statewide tours. And you've been

00:19:12.599 --> 00:19:14.519
in the business a long time. We call them cold

00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:18.980
contacts, where You go into a business, a taxidermist

00:19:18.980 --> 00:19:21.680
for example, and you don't know the guy you've

00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:23.759
never met and nobody introduces you. There's

00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:27.440
no informant. It's just an officer said, I think

00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:30.220
this guy is dirty. And so, you know, we would

00:19:30.220 --> 00:19:33.299
go in and strike up a conversation with the person

00:19:33.299 --> 00:19:38.180
and see where it went. You mentioned entrapment

00:19:38.180 --> 00:19:40.279
earlier and that's one of the things we were

00:19:40.279 --> 00:19:43.960
super concerned about from the beginning is You

00:19:43.960 --> 00:19:45.819
know, a lot of people think that undercover as

00:19:45.819 --> 00:19:50.279
a whole is entrapment. And I'm not an attorney,

00:19:50.700 --> 00:19:53.700
so nobody take this as law, but my understanding

00:19:53.700 --> 00:19:56.740
of entrapment, and you can give me yours, is

00:19:56.740 --> 00:20:00.500
the idea for the crime originated in law enforcement's

00:20:00.500 --> 00:20:02.460
mind. Law enforcement are the ones that came

00:20:02.460 --> 00:20:06.059
up with this idea, and it's too tempting for

00:20:06.059 --> 00:20:09.529
an ordinary citizen to pass up. Exactly. Exactly.

00:20:10.289 --> 00:20:14.130
And that's a defense that they can raise later,

00:20:14.369 --> 00:20:16.809
a defendant can raise, is that I was entrapped.

00:20:16.910 --> 00:20:19.150
And then it becomes incumbent on the government

00:20:19.150 --> 00:20:22.930
to prove they weren't. But the key thing in the

00:20:22.930 --> 00:20:24.869
law, just so listeners understand, everybody

00:20:24.869 --> 00:20:26.609
who's a law enforcement officer will know this,

00:20:26.670 --> 00:20:30.690
but to defeat a claim of entrapment, all the

00:20:30.690 --> 00:20:33.670
government has to show is that there was a scintilla

00:20:33.670 --> 00:20:36.210
of evidence that the person was predisposed.

00:20:37.809 --> 00:20:40.190
Pre -plan what they're going to do to attack

00:20:40.190 --> 00:20:43.390
your case and entrapment was our our number one

00:20:43.390 --> 00:20:47.750
concern. So We never once I mean not once did

00:20:47.750 --> 00:20:50.109
we ever suggest that somebody do something at

00:20:50.109 --> 00:20:52.029
least we didn't say Hey, you know what you ought

00:20:52.029 --> 00:20:54.190
to do. Yeah, kill some up and give them to me.

00:20:54.190 --> 00:20:57.630
I mean no as a matter of fact When you read the

00:20:57.630 --> 00:20:59.210
book, you probably read a couple times where

00:20:59.210 --> 00:21:02.119
we told people to stop You're just like you're

00:21:02.119 --> 00:21:04.559
you're killing too much stop I was just gonna

00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:06.660
bring that up as you know I was gonna bring that

00:21:06.660 --> 00:21:08.539
up later in our conversation as we talked about

00:21:08.539 --> 00:21:10.819
how your business got going Yeah, there were

00:21:10.819 --> 00:21:13.460
times when you had folks who were Excited to

00:21:13.460 --> 00:21:15.299
have sold to you and they wanted to go out and

00:21:15.299 --> 00:21:18.000
kill more and you actually had to put the brakes

00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:20.859
on a couple of them Because they were killing

00:21:20.859 --> 00:21:23.519
so much you that you weren't even asking for

00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:25.200
they were just they'd sell something to you And

00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:26.880
they'd run out and kill something else, right?

00:21:27.819 --> 00:21:32.880
Yeah Yeah, and we had One individual that we

00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:36.400
bought elk from that, I don't know how many elk

00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:40.220
they went through a year, 35 or 40, that's a

00:21:40.220 --> 00:21:47.339
lot of elk. And he sold elk every week. And yeah,

00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:49.420
there's just no way to get somebody like that

00:21:49.420 --> 00:21:52.079
to stop. He had tons of buyers. We were only

00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:55.710
one of his buyers, so. Was that the character

00:21:55.710 --> 00:21:58.009
in your book you described as a guy named Bori?

00:21:58.289 --> 00:22:00.970
Is it Bori? Yeah, Bori. But let's talk about

00:22:00.970 --> 00:22:04.329
Bori for a second, because how did you get onto

00:22:04.329 --> 00:22:08.109
Bori? And I don't want to give too much for the

00:22:08.109 --> 00:22:09.529
book, because I want people to buy it and read

00:22:09.529 --> 00:22:12.950
it, because it's a great read. But Bori was kind

00:22:12.950 --> 00:22:14.890
of an interesting character. He's a little bit

00:22:14.890 --> 00:22:17.910
funny, a little bit scary, but he was an Asian

00:22:17.910 --> 00:22:21.329
guy, right? Yes, Cambodian. Cambodian. OK, so

00:22:21.329 --> 00:22:24.339
how did... And he's interesting to me for a lot

00:22:24.339 --> 00:22:26.440
of reasons, but how did he come to your attention?

00:22:26.500 --> 00:22:30.299
How'd you connect up with Bori? That was a really

00:22:30.299 --> 00:22:39.000
odd one. This guy called our office in Olympia,

00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:42.720
told our headquarters office that he knew of

00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:45.380
a guy that was selling deer and elk, all you

00:22:45.380 --> 00:22:48.559
could buy, but he only dealt with Asian people.

00:22:50.200 --> 00:22:55.059
So, or like, okay. So, you know, once I ... and

00:22:55.059 --> 00:22:59.059
I called the guy back myself, the reporting party,

00:22:59.420 --> 00:23:02.759
which is a little bit hazardous, because if he

00:23:02.759 --> 00:23:04.940
recognized my voice in the later ... but anyway.

00:23:05.480 --> 00:23:08.319
So, I called the guy back, and I picked his brain,

00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:11.779
and he said, yeah, I've got this number you can

00:23:11.779 --> 00:23:13.880
call, and I said, well, what's the guy's name?

00:23:13.900 --> 00:23:17.519
And he said, I don't know. I just, a friend of

00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:19.539
mine bought his elk from him, and I asked him,

00:23:19.559 --> 00:23:21.440
how he does it. And he says, you just call this

00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:24.319
number and tell him you want an elk. And so I

00:23:24.319 --> 00:23:28.119
said, Oh, okay. Um, so I did the reverse directory,

00:23:28.279 --> 00:23:31.220
trying to find out whose number that was. And

00:23:31.220 --> 00:23:33.460
it came back as no record, you know, and I, so

00:23:33.460 --> 00:23:37.220
I was totally out of luck. So I just called the

00:23:37.220 --> 00:23:40.660
guy myself, um, and, and no, I didn't try and

00:23:40.660 --> 00:23:43.359
fake Asian accents. I just, that would be stupid.

00:23:46.719 --> 00:23:49.140
You just got to count on these people being greedy,

00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:52.599
right? Which they are. Yeah. So I called him

00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:56.660
and the conversation probably lasted less than

00:23:56.660 --> 00:23:59.319
a minute. I called up and said, this is my name.

00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:01.779
This is my business name. I said, do you have

00:24:01.779 --> 00:24:04.240
internet? And he goes, yep. And I said, look

00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:06.460
up our website on the internet. Call me back

00:24:06.460 --> 00:24:10.880
if you're interested. And that's where I left

00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:15.099
it. Because on our website, We had a lot of antlers.

00:24:15.180 --> 00:24:17.599
Antlers in Washington, you can buy and sell them.

00:24:17.599 --> 00:24:21.220
That's fine. And so we had a lot of antlers on

00:24:21.220 --> 00:24:24.599
there, deer and elk both. But we also had elk

00:24:24.599 --> 00:24:27.559
meat for sale, because Washington law allows

00:24:27.559 --> 00:24:30.579
the sale of elk meat if it's raised in a licensed

00:24:30.579 --> 00:24:33.740
game farm in another state or another country.

00:24:34.339 --> 00:24:37.099
Most of what they get in Washington is red deer

00:24:37.099 --> 00:24:41.029
from New Zealand. So, you know, if you go to

00:24:41.029 --> 00:24:43.230
a restaurant, and they say it's an elk tenderloin,

00:24:43.250 --> 00:24:46.210
that's most likely what it is, is a red deer

00:24:46.210 --> 00:24:49.230
tenderloin from New Zealand. The farm raised.

00:24:50.750 --> 00:24:55.009
But, we had that on there. So, he looked on that,

00:24:55.170 --> 00:24:58.430
called back, and said, okay, I want to meet you

00:24:58.430 --> 00:25:01.650
guys. You know, I don't know who you are, so

00:25:01.650 --> 00:25:03.910
I need to meet, talk to you, and all that. Okay,

00:25:03.950 --> 00:25:06.559
great. Where are we going to meet? Well, uh,

00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:08.160
give me a day that you're going to be around.

00:25:08.279 --> 00:25:11.259
And he's from Tacoma and, uh, South of Seattle.

00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:12.559
And he said, give me a day that you're going

00:25:12.559 --> 00:25:16.119
to be around the area. So we, we did. And, and,

00:25:16.119 --> 00:25:18.319
uh, he said, I'll give you instructions on where

00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:23.119
to meet me when you get close. So called them

00:25:23.119 --> 00:25:24.859
up and said, we're coming into Tacoma. Where

00:25:24.859 --> 00:25:28.259
do we meet? And he gave us his home address and

00:25:28.259 --> 00:25:31.220
his home address wasn't in the nicest neighborhood.

00:25:31.960 --> 00:25:33.720
There's some parts of Tacoma that are pretty

00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:37.470
dodgy. That's for sure. That's one of them. So

00:25:37.470 --> 00:25:46.109
we went in there. There was four or five Cambodian

00:25:46.109 --> 00:25:52.710
men hanging around. He had us, we had assigned

00:25:52.710 --> 00:25:56.329
seating. He told us to sit on this little short

00:25:56.329 --> 00:26:01.630
couch and he sat in a, you know, an easy chair

00:26:01.630 --> 00:26:05.059
in front of us. And then he had these four or

00:26:05.059 --> 00:26:09.240
five guys behind us. And the only weapon that

00:26:09.240 --> 00:26:12.740
I saw as we went in was a sword. And it was on

00:26:12.740 --> 00:26:17.640
the counter behind us. And so basically what

00:26:17.640 --> 00:26:19.779
he did is interviewed us. And he did a pretty

00:26:19.779 --> 00:26:26.400
good job. Yeah, I mean, it became obvious to

00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:29.019
me pretty quickly that he had looked up our business

00:26:29.019 --> 00:26:31.910
online. You can, you know, get into the Department

00:26:31.910 --> 00:26:34.170
of Licensing and look to see if you have a business

00:26:34.170 --> 00:26:38.490
license, which I did, which we did. And it comes

00:26:38.490 --> 00:26:41.430
back to you talking about setting up a business.

00:26:42.049 --> 00:26:44.589
Had I not taken that step, that might have been

00:26:44.589 --> 00:26:50.329
a problem right there. He also, and this is really

00:26:50.329 --> 00:26:52.250
common, offered us a beer. And I don't remember

00:26:52.250 --> 00:26:55.170
what time of day it was, but I had quit drinking

00:26:55.170 --> 00:26:58.420
a couple years before that. And I wasn't about

00:26:58.420 --> 00:27:01.259
to start again, so I just said, nope, I don't

00:27:01.259 --> 00:27:05.680
drink. That really bothered him. Yeah, he's like,

00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:11.920
so Jennifer volunteered to have a beer. So she

00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:13.960
had a beer and that made him feel a whole lot

00:27:13.960 --> 00:27:17.819
better. At one point, he said he wanted more

00:27:17.819 --> 00:27:20.279
business cards or brochures. I don't know which.

00:27:20.440 --> 00:27:22.839
And so he sent me out to the truck to get more.

00:27:22.940 --> 00:27:25.519
And I knew what he was doing. He's gonna ask

00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:28.599
her questions while I'm gone and then he's gonna

00:27:28.599 --> 00:27:30.819
ask me the same question when I come back in

00:27:30.819 --> 00:27:35.039
and He was good at it. I mean it really was and

00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:37.839
he he said at the end of our deal I said, what

00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:40.039
are we gonna do business? He said I'll let you

00:27:40.039 --> 00:27:44.819
know Okay So I thought well, that's it. We're

00:27:44.819 --> 00:27:46.319
not getting we're not getting the call back.

00:27:46.319 --> 00:27:50.539
We didn't pass the the interview and God, we're

00:27:50.539 --> 00:27:52.740
driving down the road 15, 20 minutes later, phone

00:27:52.740 --> 00:27:57.319
rings and it's him and he said, I don't remember

00:27:57.319 --> 00:27:59.059
exactly, but it was something like, I'll have

00:27:59.059 --> 00:28:03.380
three up for you on Thursday, this much money,

00:28:03.579 --> 00:28:07.099
cash only, see you then. And so that's how that

00:28:07.099 --> 00:28:10.299
started and we did business with him for the

00:28:10.299 --> 00:28:13.559
entire. you know, year and a half. Yeah, he's

00:28:13.559 --> 00:28:15.680
a regular character. Once he got started and

00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:18.440
you know, you passed his test, he became a regular

00:28:18.440 --> 00:28:20.640
character. And one of the things that struck

00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:23.480
me about him is, you know, you mentioned he's

00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:26.819
Cambodian and, you know, he likes to work with

00:28:26.819 --> 00:28:29.460
people he knows from the Asian community. So,

00:28:29.559 --> 00:28:31.859
and other times, you know, I believe you saw

00:28:31.859 --> 00:28:34.200
a lot of weapons at Burry's house over the course

00:28:34.200 --> 00:28:36.619
of the investigation, right? Including assault

00:28:36.619 --> 00:28:39.930
rifles and things like that. He described shooting

00:28:39.930 --> 00:28:45.230
somebody to us too. So, yeah. So, but interestingly,

00:28:45.369 --> 00:28:47.190
I want to ask you, you know, he didn't like dealing

00:28:47.190 --> 00:28:49.589
with non Asians, but in the investigation you

00:28:49.589 --> 00:28:51.390
found out he was getting on some of his deer

00:28:51.390 --> 00:28:54.329
and elk from tribal members, right? Yes. Yeah.

00:28:54.369 --> 00:28:57.150
So he's interconnected with tribal members who

00:28:57.150 --> 00:29:00.769
have very unique, I mean, and special hunting

00:29:00.769 --> 00:29:03.049
rights in Washington, but they're not allowed

00:29:03.049 --> 00:29:05.890
necessarily to go then and go sell them meat.

00:29:06.410 --> 00:29:09.789
But And the other thing he was into was sturgeon

00:29:09.789 --> 00:29:16.470
as well, right? Sturgeon, cock fighting and marijuana

00:29:16.470 --> 00:29:21.250
grows. So he, you know, he, he didn't, he didn't

00:29:21.250 --> 00:29:23.750
like working with Asians, but he had to, to get

00:29:23.750 --> 00:29:27.130
sturgeon and to be involved in, you know, salmon

00:29:27.130 --> 00:29:30.069
and sturgeon and deer and elk. He's working with

00:29:30.069 --> 00:29:32.410
a lot of people who aren't Asians. So he, he

00:29:32.410 --> 00:29:36.670
really was a true trafficker. Yeah. Yeah. He's

00:29:36.670 --> 00:29:39.390
pretty good at it. Pretty active. Yep. But over

00:29:39.390 --> 00:29:41.690
time, I think he actually got to like you, didn't

00:29:41.690 --> 00:29:44.789
he? He did. Yeah, he always referred to me as

00:29:44.789 --> 00:29:48.190
his favorite white boy. As soon as I come in

00:29:48.190 --> 00:29:50.089
the room, he'd go, oh, my favorite white boy.

00:29:50.549 --> 00:29:52.630
You know you're in when that happens, right?

00:29:53.349 --> 00:29:56.829
Yeah. So that's so far we talked about stuff

00:29:56.829 --> 00:29:58.630
going on on the western side of the state. Did

00:29:58.630 --> 00:30:01.410
you did you get into people across Washington

00:30:01.410 --> 00:30:03.950
and eastern Washington or any of the neighboring

00:30:03.950 --> 00:30:09.099
states? We basically ended up across the country.

00:30:09.660 --> 00:30:15.720
We did business with New York, Chicago, California.

00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:20.220
I think Oklahoma too, right? Oklahoma, Canada,

00:30:20.440 --> 00:30:25.720
BC. Yeah. And that was one of the things early

00:30:25.720 --> 00:30:29.720
on when we first got approval to do it. And I

00:30:29.720 --> 00:30:32.539
met with the deputy chief and the deputy chief

00:30:32.539 --> 00:30:35.720
and my captain spelled out a couple of the rules.

00:30:35.859 --> 00:30:38.640
And one of them was no working with the feds.

00:30:38.819 --> 00:30:42.380
I want to get to that. Having been a fed myself.

00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:47.700
And no doing business with tribal members. Oh,

00:30:48.079 --> 00:30:52.980
there's three. No, no interstate. And I'm like,

00:30:53.240 --> 00:30:58.500
because that would involve the feds. And so I

00:30:58.500 --> 00:31:00.380
argued to a lot of blue in the face on that.

00:31:00.500 --> 00:31:04.119
I'm like, you can't have a website. and do business

00:31:04.119 --> 00:31:06.640
just in this state, you know, I mean, that doesn't

00:31:06.640 --> 00:31:09.900
make sense. You are going to get contacted by

00:31:09.900 --> 00:31:13.259
people all over the country, yeah. And the tribal

00:31:13.259 --> 00:31:17.299
stuff. Yeah. I mean, that was just plain frustrating

00:31:17.299 --> 00:31:20.200
because we got a lot of offers from tribal members

00:31:20.200 --> 00:31:22.720
that we just said, no, not interested, can't

00:31:22.720 --> 00:31:27.240
do it. So yeah, I mean, those are the rules that

00:31:27.240 --> 00:31:31.500
were put on us and we still went about doing

00:31:31.500 --> 00:31:34.490
business. And some of the rules got changed.

00:31:35.029 --> 00:31:37.269
So we've talked a lot about the, you know, Western

00:31:37.269 --> 00:31:39.369
Washington and deer and elk and all that. Did

00:31:39.369 --> 00:31:41.529
you ever, I do remember in the book, there's

00:31:41.529 --> 00:31:43.450
a couple of restaurants that were involved too.

00:31:44.890 --> 00:31:47.269
There was more than one, it's not like one restaurant

00:31:47.269 --> 00:31:49.230
wanted to buy from you, but multiple restaurants,

00:31:49.349 --> 00:31:53.470
right? Yeah, we had, and again, I can't remember,

00:31:53.630 --> 00:31:55.470
I'll tell you, I had five or six different restaurants

00:31:55.470 --> 00:32:00.410
that we dealt with. And those came about by uniformed

00:32:00.410 --> 00:32:03.220
officers telling us that they had heard. you

00:32:03.220 --> 00:32:06.140
know, that this restaurant buys. Well, I use

00:32:06.140 --> 00:32:09.539
one that was in Tri -Cities. The initial thing

00:32:09.539 --> 00:32:13.319
we got was that they were buying waterfowl and

00:32:13.319 --> 00:32:16.900
serving it at the restaurant. Yeah, for ducks

00:32:16.900 --> 00:32:23.720
on the menu, right? Which is, that kind of pokes

00:32:23.720 --> 00:32:26.279
a nerve for a wildlife officer because knowing

00:32:26.279 --> 00:32:28.799
the history of decimation of waterfowl in this

00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:32.559
country in the early 20th century, you know,

00:32:32.619 --> 00:32:35.559
that to know that market hunting of while of

00:32:35.559 --> 00:32:38.440
ducks still goes on is kind of a sore spot. But

00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:40.980
and then of course you have safety issues, right?

00:32:41.079 --> 00:32:43.480
You have unknown meat going to restaurants that

00:32:43.480 --> 00:32:46.640
sold to the public. That's that's an issue. And

00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:50.480
that's one of the things that concern both Jennifer

00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:55.240
and myself is that we're selling meat that we

00:32:55.240 --> 00:32:59.339
got from poachers and most of them are drug addicts.

00:32:59.339 --> 00:33:02.529
We got meat that we got from poachers and then

00:33:02.529 --> 00:33:05.369
we turn around and sell that same meat to a restaurant

00:33:05.369 --> 00:33:10.549
who then prepares it and sells it to their customers.

00:33:11.150 --> 00:33:13.809
And I was a little bit concerned about somebody

00:33:13.809 --> 00:33:20.529
getting sick and going after the state for their

00:33:20.529 --> 00:33:24.240
involvement in providing this. uncertified meat

00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:28.059
or uninspected meat. The last thing you want

00:33:28.059 --> 00:33:30.259
when you walk into a restaurant is to know that

00:33:30.259 --> 00:33:33.160
the meat you're eating was handled by a methamphetamine

00:33:33.160 --> 00:33:36.640
user and dealer, right? Yeah, well, that's probably

00:33:36.640 --> 00:33:40.859
more common than we believe. But yeah, so I was

00:33:40.859 --> 00:33:45.059
concerned about that. We asked our captain to

00:33:45.059 --> 00:33:47.460
run it by the attorney general's office and see

00:33:47.460 --> 00:33:50.759
what they had to say. And I normally don't. look

00:33:50.759 --> 00:33:53.119
forward to a decision from the attorney general's

00:33:53.119 --> 00:33:56.140
office, but that one I wanted to know. And they

00:33:56.140 --> 00:34:00.079
came back and said, if we had a reason to believe

00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:04.799
that they were already engaged in buying and,

00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:08.780
and, uh, preparing and selling game meat in the

00:34:08.780 --> 00:34:11.119
restaurant that we were good to go as long as

00:34:11.119 --> 00:34:13.400
we used every due care and caution to make sure

00:34:13.400 --> 00:34:17.110
that it was, it was safe and edible. And this

00:34:17.110 --> 00:34:19.170
whole restaurant thing though kind of got kind

00:34:19.170 --> 00:34:22.369
of blew up on you, right? Because we're not just

00:34:22.369 --> 00:34:24.909
talking about the kind of meats that you ordinarily

00:34:24.909 --> 00:34:26.909
might see in a restaurant, which might be deer

00:34:26.909 --> 00:34:30.050
or elk or salmon, certainly. But this led to

00:34:30.050 --> 00:34:32.429
like some crazy stuff, like people buying whole

00:34:32.429 --> 00:34:36.190
bears from you and cougars and tell us about

00:34:36.190 --> 00:34:38.570
that. Like that was Eastern Washington restaurants,

00:34:38.710 --> 00:34:40.409
I believe, but tell us about that. Like how did

00:34:40.409 --> 00:34:42.860
you... What did you think when you got it? You

00:34:42.860 --> 00:34:44.659
start getting inquiries where a guy wants to

00:34:44.659 --> 00:34:47.480
buy a whole bear from you. And why would they

00:34:47.480 --> 00:34:52.559
want a whole bear? It's funny because that the

00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:55.300
bear and mountain lion were one, one individual

00:34:55.300 --> 00:35:01.460
with one restaurant in particular. And, uh, the

00:35:01.460 --> 00:35:04.699
story is kind of strange. When, when I was uniform

00:35:04.699 --> 00:35:07.570
officer in the blue mountains, two of our other

00:35:07.570 --> 00:35:12.510
officers in a different area had been approached

00:35:12.510 --> 00:35:15.090
by a guy that worked for a beverage company,

00:35:15.750 --> 00:35:18.690
Pepsi or Coca -Cola, and he delivered to restaurants

00:35:18.690 --> 00:35:23.969
and stores. And he had gone into this one particular

00:35:23.969 --> 00:35:28.670
restaurant, a Chinese restaurant, and he walked

00:35:28.670 --> 00:35:32.789
into the cooler to put the soda in the cooler

00:35:32.789 --> 00:35:34.929
for them, and there was three or four deer laying

00:35:34.929 --> 00:35:38.159
on the floor of the cooler. And he thought, well,

00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:40.480
that's interesting. And he's a hunter. So he

00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:42.980
called up those officers and said, this is what

00:35:42.980 --> 00:35:47.500
I saw. I don't know why I wasn't involved in

00:35:47.500 --> 00:35:49.559
it. Don't know a thing about it. But they never

00:35:49.559 --> 00:35:51.780
went. They didn't go look at the restaurant.

00:35:51.900 --> 00:35:54.239
They didn't inspect. As far as I know, they never

00:35:54.239 --> 00:36:01.179
looked at it. So we were coming back from a contact

00:36:01.179 --> 00:36:04.579
in Oregon. And we were coming through Walla Walla,

00:36:04.579 --> 00:36:08.570
where this restaurant was. So we stopped in and

00:36:08.570 --> 00:36:11.230
gave him a brochure and a card. This is the same

00:36:11.230 --> 00:36:13.369
place that had been reported for having bachia

00:36:13.369 --> 00:36:19.030
oligo beer. And that night, I went back and I

00:36:19.030 --> 00:36:22.030
was, oh, I gotta back up a little bit, I'm sorry.

00:36:22.489 --> 00:36:26.449
So the guy at the restaurant wasn't there. The

00:36:26.449 --> 00:36:28.949
owner of the restaurant wasn't there. The people

00:36:28.949 --> 00:36:33.070
that I dealt with didn't speak very, they spoke

00:36:33.070 --> 00:36:36.170
very little English. And so they said they'd

00:36:36.170 --> 00:36:39.550
have him call. Well, the guy finally did call.

00:36:40.670 --> 00:36:44.550
And that was one of the most entertaining conversations

00:36:44.550 --> 00:36:49.349
I had because he looked at our brochure and he

00:36:49.349 --> 00:36:54.050
said, I see you sell bear. And I put on there

00:36:54.050 --> 00:36:56.889
that we sell bear hides because you can legally

00:36:56.889 --> 00:37:00.610
do that. And he said, I see you sell bear. And

00:37:00.610 --> 00:37:03.900
I said, yeah. And he said, What kind of what

00:37:03.900 --> 00:37:06.599
parts of bear do you have? And I said, well,

00:37:06.639 --> 00:37:08.280
what part are you looking for? And he wouldn't

00:37:08.280 --> 00:37:11.159
say it. There's these people that think that

00:37:11.159 --> 00:37:15.260
if I say it then, you know, I'm in trouble. So

00:37:15.260 --> 00:37:18.539
he wouldn't say what he was looking for. I knew

00:37:18.539 --> 00:37:21.820
what he was looking for, but he said, what parts

00:37:21.820 --> 00:37:24.099
do you sell? So I started naming every part of

00:37:24.099 --> 00:37:26.360
a bear I could think of. And I went from the

00:37:26.360 --> 00:37:28.980
claws to the paws to the teeth to the tail to

00:37:28.980 --> 00:37:32.099
the... You know, the ear, I mean, I did everything.

00:37:32.900 --> 00:37:36.460
Heart, liver, dah, dah, dah. Finally, I said

00:37:36.460 --> 00:37:39.239
gallbladder and he goes, oh, you have gallbladder?

00:37:39.679 --> 00:37:43.239
Acting surprised. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, let me

00:37:43.239 --> 00:37:48.639
try those. So, so he asked me to bring over one

00:37:48.639 --> 00:37:53.179
gallbladder for him to test. And so I brought

00:37:53.179 --> 00:37:55.880
over one gallbladder, sold it to him for whatever.

00:37:56.570 --> 00:37:58.889
a 50 bucks or something, because it was his test

00:37:58.889 --> 00:38:02.090
drive when it was a real small one. And, um,

00:38:02.650 --> 00:38:05.789
and that night I was by myself, Jennifer didn't

00:38:05.789 --> 00:38:08.010
go on the second one. And so I was by myself.

00:38:08.250 --> 00:38:11.309
So that night I stayed at, at Corky Robert's

00:38:11.309 --> 00:38:13.570
house with Corky and his wife, special agent

00:38:13.570 --> 00:38:16.110
Corky Roberts was us Christian wildlife service

00:38:16.110 --> 00:38:18.849
so much for not cooperating with the feds. Yeah.

00:38:19.010 --> 00:38:23.250
Well, um, so I'm sitting in his, in his house

00:38:23.250 --> 00:38:26.559
when this guy calls back. And this is the day

00:38:26.559 --> 00:38:30.139
that I sold him the one to test. And the guy

00:38:30.139 --> 00:38:33.460
called back and he said, your gallbladder turned

00:38:33.460 --> 00:38:38.820
out to be bare, so I'm happy. And he said, I

00:38:38.820 --> 00:38:41.059
want to buy more. He said, how many do you want?

00:38:41.239 --> 00:38:42.699
And he goes, how many do you have? And I said,

00:38:42.800 --> 00:38:46.739
more than you can afford. And he said, no, I'll

00:38:46.739 --> 00:38:51.340
buy all of them that you've got. And we set a

00:38:51.340 --> 00:38:58.369
price, and that was it. I mean, it was so fun

00:38:58.369 --> 00:39:01.010
having that conversation in front of Corky and

00:39:01.010 --> 00:39:04.050
his wife, the very fed that would be working

00:39:04.050 --> 00:39:07.969
it later. And I'm sitting in his living room

00:39:07.969 --> 00:39:09.769
having this conversation with a guy that wants

00:39:09.769 --> 00:39:12.690
to buy all the gallbladder I can get him. And

00:39:12.690 --> 00:39:15.389
the crazy thing is, where's that gallbladder

00:39:15.389 --> 00:39:20.849
going? According to him, it was going to Hong

00:39:20.849 --> 00:39:25.869
Kong. You go from like a restaurant by an occasional

00:39:25.869 --> 00:39:29.530
salmon filets or deer meat. Now you're into this

00:39:29.530 --> 00:39:32.369
Asian guy who's interested in all the gallbladders

00:39:32.369 --> 00:39:34.469
you can get. What, what is the price of a goal?

00:39:34.530 --> 00:39:36.289
What were you charging him for your gallbladders?

00:39:37.269 --> 00:39:41.309
You know, with him, I ended up going, um, per

00:39:41.309 --> 00:39:43.730
gram and I, and I don't remember the price per

00:39:43.730 --> 00:39:49.250
gram that, you know, yeah, normally We would

00:39:49.250 --> 00:39:52.210
sell them between one and $200 a piece. Yeah.

00:39:52.230 --> 00:39:54.550
Yeah. And that adds up if you're talking, you

00:39:54.550 --> 00:39:57.929
know, all you've got. 25 or 30. Yeah. And where

00:39:57.929 --> 00:39:59.570
were you getting them? Where did, where did you

00:39:59.570 --> 00:40:01.250
source your gallbladders when you were selling

00:40:01.250 --> 00:40:04.789
them to this guy? So we had hound hunters that

00:40:04.789 --> 00:40:08.050
were out there on, on special permits to kill

00:40:08.050 --> 00:40:10.610
problem bears. And that's where we got the bear.

00:40:11.050 --> 00:40:14.130
And it wasn't all the timber company stuff, you

00:40:14.130 --> 00:40:17.460
know, when bearers would terrorize the garbage

00:40:17.460 --> 00:40:20.900
cans in Issaquah or whatever, then those bear

00:40:20.900 --> 00:40:23.659
too, if they got put down, would take the gallbladder

00:40:23.659 --> 00:40:25.920
out of them too. Yeah, lots of opportunities

00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:28.400
for you to lawfully come across. It could be

00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:31.860
a seized bear, it could be in all kinds of situations

00:40:31.860 --> 00:40:33.780
where you could come across a bear. Okay, that's

00:40:33.780 --> 00:40:36.780
interesting. But now, that guy became kind of

00:40:36.780 --> 00:40:38.460
an interesting character because he had connections

00:40:38.460 --> 00:40:43.139
in Oregon as well, right? connections all over

00:40:43.139 --> 00:40:44.820
the place. Yes, he had connections in Oregon.

00:40:44.820 --> 00:40:48.320
He sent us down to Oregon to sell bear. We shipped

00:40:48.320 --> 00:40:51.340
whole bear. I remember right before Christmas,

00:40:51.400 --> 00:40:54.320
we shipped a whole frozen bear. It had been chopped

00:40:54.320 --> 00:40:56.199
up, you know, but the whole thing was in the

00:40:56.199 --> 00:40:59.320
box. And we shipped it, I think, to part of it

00:40:59.320 --> 00:41:01.480
to Chicago and part of it to New York, if my

00:41:01.480 --> 00:41:03.079
memory serves me right, which probably doesn't.

00:41:03.239 --> 00:41:07.199
But anyway, we shipped them by UPS. And I remember

00:41:07.199 --> 00:41:09.460
asking him, I said, you know, I'm shipping, he's

00:41:09.460 --> 00:41:12.579
paying for the shipping. And I said, You want

00:41:12.579 --> 00:41:14.559
them shipped, you know, like second day, I assume.

00:41:14.579 --> 00:41:17.900
And he's like, no, no, just regular UPS. And

00:41:17.900 --> 00:41:20.800
I said, you know, it's Christmas, right? I mean,

00:41:21.019 --> 00:41:23.480
Christmas is in a week or two. And he goes, yeah.

00:41:23.480 --> 00:41:26.699
And I said, so things are kind of slow. So I'm

00:41:26.699 --> 00:41:28.699
just worried about it thawing out. And he said,

00:41:28.980 --> 00:41:34.179
no, no, send it UPS. I'm like, okay. So I did.

00:41:34.659 --> 00:41:37.119
And I stewed about that for a long time thinking

00:41:37.119 --> 00:41:39.449
that. You know, kids are going to open up their

00:41:39.449 --> 00:41:41.389
Christmas presents on Christmas and then they're

00:41:41.389 --> 00:41:46.309
going to smell really funny because these rotting

00:41:46.309 --> 00:41:49.769
bear carcasses in the stack of packages above

00:41:49.769 --> 00:41:53.289
them was leaking down onto their package. But

00:41:53.289 --> 00:41:56.389
ironically, they got to their destinations and

00:41:56.389 --> 00:41:59.550
they were still frozen. So dodge the bullet.

00:42:01.389 --> 00:42:03.230
Did he tell you like, what are they doing with

00:42:03.230 --> 00:42:05.130
a whole bear? I mean, there's the gallbladder,

00:42:05.170 --> 00:42:07.610
but he, this was weird about this guy that struck

00:42:07.610 --> 00:42:10.469
me when I read the book is he wanted the whole

00:42:10.469 --> 00:42:12.269
bear. What are they doing with the whole bear?

00:42:13.190 --> 00:42:15.550
Well, it kind of goes back to we delivered him

00:42:15.550 --> 00:42:18.630
a whole mountain line one time about 160 pound

00:42:18.630 --> 00:42:22.349
cat. It was a big, a big Tom, one of our uniform

00:42:22.349 --> 00:42:25.429
officer seized it from a guy that guy that they

00:42:25.429 --> 00:42:29.480
seized it from hadn't gutted it. And it was probably

00:42:29.480 --> 00:42:32.840
four days old at that point, so it stunk really

00:42:32.840 --> 00:42:37.380
bad. And I called the same restaurant owner up

00:42:37.380 --> 00:42:39.619
and said, you know, and he had asked us before,

00:42:39.659 --> 00:42:41.239
if you get a mountain lion, I want the whole

00:42:41.239 --> 00:42:44.820
thing. Okay. I called him up and said, I have

00:42:44.820 --> 00:42:46.860
a lion, you know, it's been gutted, but the whole

00:42:46.860 --> 00:42:48.440
thing. And he goes, I'll take it. And I said,

00:42:48.840 --> 00:42:51.159
it stinks. I mean, I think it's spoiled. He goes,

00:42:51.199 --> 00:42:55.800
I'll still take it. Okay, so we sold it to him

00:42:55.800 --> 00:42:58.099
for I don't know five or six hundred bucks something

00:42:58.099 --> 00:43:04.980
like that for a stinking mountain lion and And

00:43:04.980 --> 00:43:07.719
we pulled away from that and I was confused,

00:43:07.860 --> 00:43:09.380
you know I mean I remember turning around to

00:43:09.380 --> 00:43:12.679
Jennifer saying I don't get it the guy can buy

00:43:12.679 --> 00:43:17.619
pork For a tenth that price, you know, so why

00:43:17.619 --> 00:43:21.599
is he paying so much for a mountain lion? to

00:43:21.599 --> 00:43:25.280
serve to his customers instead of just serving

00:43:25.280 --> 00:43:27.880
it as pork, which is what he would portray it

00:43:27.880 --> 00:43:32.539
as. And she said, I don't think it's going to

00:43:32.539 --> 00:43:34.099
his regular customers. And I go, what do you

00:43:34.099 --> 00:43:36.059
mean? And she goes, I think it's going to Asian

00:43:36.059 --> 00:43:40.260
customers only. Because several of them told

00:43:40.260 --> 00:43:45.699
us that eating the meat or parts of the powerful

00:43:45.699 --> 00:43:48.320
predators, whether it's mountain lion, I don't

00:43:48.320 --> 00:43:50.219
know if they believe it with wolves or not, but

00:43:50.219 --> 00:43:53.300
mountain lions and bears especially, gives them

00:43:53.300 --> 00:43:57.579
energy and strength. So it's just, yeah. And

00:43:57.579 --> 00:43:59.719
then, you know, they do, they can, with cats

00:43:59.719 --> 00:44:01.840
in particular, the big cats, they'll, they'll

00:44:01.840 --> 00:44:04.579
melt down the bones and make, you know, what

00:44:04.579 --> 00:44:06.900
they call tiger bone wine, but tigers are getting

00:44:06.900 --> 00:44:09.000
so scarce that they've turned to other big cats.

00:44:09.360 --> 00:44:12.960
But it's just weird because it's just, it's a

00:44:12.960 --> 00:44:15.320
reminder that there's a lot of people out there

00:44:15.320 --> 00:44:19.059
who commercialize wildlife. for reasons that

00:44:19.059 --> 00:44:21.360
we don't normally contemplate, right? There may

00:44:21.360 --> 00:44:23.800
be other motivations going on here that you never

00:44:23.800 --> 00:44:26.139
even thought of when you started Operation Cody,

00:44:26.380 --> 00:44:30.940
right? Exactly. And I, you know, we could, we're

00:44:30.940 --> 00:44:32.860
kind of getting short on time a little bit, so

00:44:32.860 --> 00:44:36.880
I need to jump ahead a little. I'll just say

00:44:36.880 --> 00:44:39.639
that, you know, Operation Cody, the book that

00:44:39.639 --> 00:44:44.329
you wrote is a very... natural fun read and it

00:44:44.329 --> 00:44:46.889
it's hard to write a book that tells the story

00:44:46.889 --> 00:44:48.570
about this case because there's so many different

00:44:48.570 --> 00:44:51.090
suspects so many different types of animals so

00:44:51.090 --> 00:44:55.050
many unique funny scary dangerous contacts that

00:44:55.050 --> 00:44:57.949
you had so you know people should go get your

00:44:57.949 --> 00:45:00.289
book and read it because it's it's uh you walk

00:45:00.289 --> 00:45:02.329
us through that whole operation pretty smoothly

00:45:02.329 --> 00:45:05.030
but let's fast forward now Todd maybe to a year

00:45:05.030 --> 00:45:07.550
a year and a half end of your two -year op I

00:45:07.550 --> 00:45:11.300
think that everybody was kind of blown away by

00:45:11.300 --> 00:45:13.840
the success of your operation. Cause let me correct

00:45:13.840 --> 00:45:15.980
me if I'm wrong here, Todd, but let me just summarize

00:45:15.980 --> 00:45:18.019
by the time you're at about a year, a year and

00:45:18.019 --> 00:45:21.860
a half into this two year op, you've got like

00:45:21.860 --> 00:45:25.360
a hundred suspects and a thousand potential counts.

00:45:25.619 --> 00:45:27.840
I think by the end of the whole thing, as you

00:45:27.840 --> 00:45:30.639
describe in your book, you and Jennifer had like

00:45:30.639 --> 00:45:35.300
600 undercover contacts during this op. I think

00:45:35.300 --> 00:45:38.159
what happened is they, the senior leadership

00:45:38.159 --> 00:45:42.289
was like, Holy shit we have this is a big deal

00:45:42.289 --> 00:45:45.309
and that raises all kinds of other questions

00:45:45.309 --> 00:45:47.989
of Naturally, we got to bring in some other agencies

00:45:47.989 --> 00:45:50.590
to help us get this done But what I want to get

00:45:50.590 --> 00:45:54.469
into next Todd is when you're at that point It's

00:45:54.469 --> 00:45:57.050
not just doing the case and having these 600

00:45:57.050 --> 00:45:59.929
contacts and developing a hundred suspects and

00:45:59.929 --> 00:46:03.480
a thousand counts You gotta now to talk start

00:46:03.480 --> 00:46:05.719
thinking about how we gonna prosecute these people,

00:46:05.840 --> 00:46:09.659
right? So you've got huge evidence issues You

00:46:09.659 --> 00:46:13.199
have huge like report writing issues that now

00:46:13.199 --> 00:46:16.099
are gonna face you as you come to the close Can

00:46:16.099 --> 00:46:19.639
you kind of explain to listeners like? What that

00:46:19.639 --> 00:46:23.800
was like as you're wrapping this up now? What

00:46:23.800 --> 00:46:26.300
what was what was the state of your evidence

00:46:26.300 --> 00:46:29.300
control and your report writing and all of that?

00:46:29.300 --> 00:46:32.519
I mean that must have just been a nightmare Yeah,

00:46:32.780 --> 00:46:38.880
it's the detective that they first assigned to

00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:44.440
assist in that capacity. Nice guy, you know,

00:46:44.599 --> 00:46:47.460
smart enough, all that kind of neat stuff. But

00:46:47.460 --> 00:46:51.980
they tasked him with working shellfish investigations

00:46:51.980 --> 00:46:56.579
and also doing, you know, helping with our stuff,

00:46:56.639 --> 00:46:59.840
with our evidence and all that. Well, I think

00:46:59.840 --> 00:47:02.099
it was just you know, how did you deal with this

00:47:02.099 --> 00:47:04.039
point? They're wrapping it up How did you cope

00:47:04.039 --> 00:47:06.880
with the you know, did you have evidence issues

00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:11.179
report issues? How did that all play out? Well

00:47:11.179 --> 00:47:15.360
Yeah, when it came down to we've got this date.

00:47:15.360 --> 00:47:17.199
We've got to be ready. We've got to get all the

00:47:17.199 --> 00:47:21.519
prosecutors Packages already. I grabbed all the

00:47:21.519 --> 00:47:24.920
case files and I opened them up and the guy that

00:47:24.920 --> 00:47:27.780
had done them made a really nice little tab,

00:47:27.780 --> 00:47:29.739
you know, that are all typed out stuff. I mean,

00:47:29.760 --> 00:47:32.800
the folders look really cool. But when I opened

00:47:32.800 --> 00:47:35.360
them up, the only thing in the folders at all

00:47:35.360 --> 00:47:38.340
was my case apart and Jennifer's case report.

00:47:38.760 --> 00:47:41.679
Nothing else. There was no background information.

00:47:41.900 --> 00:47:47.480
There was no evidence forms or nothing. And so

00:47:47.480 --> 00:47:50.900
then I found out that almost none of the evidence

00:47:50.900 --> 00:47:53.940
had been tested. Oh boy. Tested at a lab, you

00:47:53.940 --> 00:47:57.230
mean, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I mean like we're seizing

00:47:57.230 --> 00:48:02.789
raptor feathers feathers from hawks eagles owls

00:48:02.789 --> 00:48:06.360
and I can't stand it. I can't get up on the stand

00:48:06.360 --> 00:48:08.739
and say I'm an expert on raptors and I can tell

00:48:08.739 --> 00:48:12.059
you for sure this is from a snowy out. Exactly.

00:48:12.800 --> 00:48:15.000
Yeah, you know it. You're experienced enough.

00:48:15.139 --> 00:48:18.300
You know it in the field. But yeah, for proving

00:48:18.300 --> 00:48:20.099
something in court beyond a reasonable doubt

00:48:20.099 --> 00:48:23.739
does require those expert witnesses to say, hey,

00:48:23.840 --> 00:48:26.039
this is what this is, confirming what it is.

00:48:26.059 --> 00:48:29.400
And that has to come from a forensics lab. And

00:48:29.400 --> 00:48:32.860
bear gallbladder. looks identical to pig gallbladder.

00:48:32.980 --> 00:48:35.559
As a matter of fact, I think it's been done many

00:48:35.559 --> 00:48:38.320
times where people get pig gallbladder and sell

00:48:38.320 --> 00:48:43.780
them to Asian buyers as bear gallbladder. But

00:48:43.780 --> 00:48:46.239
since they look identical, the only way to tell

00:48:46.239 --> 00:48:49.099
them apart is by DNA testing. So we had a bunch

00:48:49.099 --> 00:48:51.659
of testing left to do. Well, it hadn't been done.

00:48:52.900 --> 00:48:56.659
And so it was a mess. It was an absolute total

00:48:56.659 --> 00:49:02.360
mess. So they... Then at the last few months

00:49:02.360 --> 00:49:08.599
of the operation, they put in another officer,

00:49:09.139 --> 00:49:15.039
Julie Cook, as a temporary detective. But Jennifer

00:49:15.039 --> 00:49:17.519
was assigned to be full -time at that point.

00:49:17.900 --> 00:49:20.639
Earlier than that, they switched her to full

00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:24.039
-time. They put in Julie as part -time to handle

00:49:24.039 --> 00:49:26.610
the evidence. the reports and all that kind of

00:49:26.610 --> 00:49:28.869
stuff. So we did get it all squared away by the

00:49:28.869 --> 00:49:32.590
time it was time to start sending out the packages

00:49:32.590 --> 00:49:34.909
to prosecutors and meeting with them in the USA,

00:49:34.909 --> 00:49:39.670
etc. So, but it was an absolute total mess. Yeah,

00:49:39.710 --> 00:49:43.090
and I think US Fish and Wildlife Services Forensics

00:49:43.090 --> 00:49:45.349
Lab kind of got involved at that point, too,

00:49:45.349 --> 00:49:47.230
to help kind of rush through some of these IDs,

00:49:47.389 --> 00:49:50.289
right? Very much so. Yeah, we have our own DNA

00:49:50.289 --> 00:49:54.429
lab in Washington, but we had an overwhelming

00:49:55.190 --> 00:49:58.150
number of samples. So I think about half went

00:49:58.150 --> 00:50:01.750
to Ashland to the lab there. And the other half

00:50:01.750 --> 00:50:05.130
went to ours. So that let's talk about the takedowns

00:50:05.130 --> 00:50:08.090
then you have this date set for you for you by

00:50:08.090 --> 00:50:10.630
management that you have to do your takedowns.

00:50:10.630 --> 00:50:14.610
There was a little bit of a cluster fuck and

00:50:14.610 --> 00:50:17.429
officer safety issue at those takedowns. If I

00:50:17.429 --> 00:50:23.510
remember right, how'd that play out? Not so well.

00:50:23.630 --> 00:50:26.090
Yeah, but you know what? The reason I want to

00:50:26.090 --> 00:50:28.269
talk about this, Todd, is not to bash anybody

00:50:28.269 --> 00:50:31.769
in particular, but I think it's a really good

00:50:31.769 --> 00:50:36.369
kind of a, I don't know, learning lesson or lesson

00:50:36.369 --> 00:50:39.909
learned kind of thing about you have to be vigilant

00:50:39.909 --> 00:50:41.989
all the way through these ops right to the end

00:50:41.989 --> 00:50:47.050
because... So yeah, we had, like you said, roughly

00:50:47.050 --> 00:50:51.110
a hundred suspects, criminal suspects to be charged.

00:50:51.550 --> 00:50:53.789
Now, there weren't 100 of them in Washington.

00:50:53.889 --> 00:50:56.969
There was probably 70 or so in Washington. The

00:50:56.969 --> 00:51:00.329
rest were in New York, California, Oklahoma,

00:51:00.630 --> 00:51:06.030
etc. So we had 100 people. We had over a thousand

00:51:06.030 --> 00:51:08.130
criminal charges. Almost all of them fell on

00:51:08.130 --> 00:51:12.789
the level. And we were only going to do search

00:51:12.789 --> 00:51:15.690
warrants on the top eight people. on September

00:51:15.690 --> 00:51:18.550
18th. Everybody else would just be charged and

00:51:18.550 --> 00:51:20.510
like summoned into court or whatever, right?

00:51:21.130 --> 00:51:24.130
Right. Yeah. But you know, we would, my goal

00:51:24.130 --> 00:51:26.590
on this thing was not to just get the people

00:51:26.590 --> 00:51:28.909
that sold the stuff, but I wanted to get the

00:51:28.909 --> 00:51:31.269
people that poached it and sold it to the people

00:51:31.269 --> 00:51:33.969
that sold it to us. I wanted all of it. And the

00:51:33.969 --> 00:51:35.909
way you get that is through their electronics,

00:51:36.090 --> 00:51:39.750
their phones, their computers, all that. In order

00:51:39.750 --> 00:51:41.750
to get those things, we had to have a search

00:51:41.750 --> 00:51:43.449
warrant. You're not going to get a search warrant

00:51:43.449 --> 00:51:47.369
on information that's eight months old. So everything

00:51:47.369 --> 00:51:51.309
other than those top eight went stale. And so

00:51:51.309 --> 00:51:53.909
no chance to do a search warrant. Therefore,

00:51:54.289 --> 00:51:57.170
not much of a chance to do a further dig on them

00:51:57.170 --> 00:52:04.679
post arrest. But on that date, Jennifer and I

00:52:04.679 --> 00:52:07.980
had split up the cases 50 -50. So she has half

00:52:07.980 --> 00:52:11.139
of them. I have half of them. We set up a little

00:52:11.139 --> 00:52:15.119
command center at one of our offices and we spread

00:52:15.119 --> 00:52:18.719
out all the case reports. She was on her side

00:52:18.719 --> 00:52:20.500
of the table. I was on my side. We're all ready.

00:52:20.559 --> 00:52:22.679
We told all the officers, if anything comes up,

00:52:22.739 --> 00:52:25.659
you want to know anything, call us. And so we

00:52:25.659 --> 00:52:27.280
were getting calls from the field. Everything

00:52:27.280 --> 00:52:30.820
was good. And then around noon, a friend of mine

00:52:30.820 --> 00:52:35.079
called up and said, Hey, are you part of this

00:52:35.079 --> 00:52:38.099
big statewide investigation on wildlife trafficking?

00:52:39.179 --> 00:52:40.920
And I said, what are you talking about? And he

00:52:40.920 --> 00:52:42.920
said, oh, it was on the news. They have this

00:52:42.920 --> 00:52:45.059
big takedown where they're, they're hitting up

00:52:45.059 --> 00:52:47.079
restaurants and all these people for selling

00:52:47.079 --> 00:52:49.320
wildlife, buying and selling wildlife items.

00:52:49.320 --> 00:52:52.139
And since that's your kind of thing, I just figured

00:52:52.139 --> 00:52:55.699
you were in on it. And I'm like, what channels

00:52:55.699 --> 00:52:58.320
this? And he told me, and I looked it up and

00:52:58.320 --> 00:53:01.659
sure as hell there it is. our deputy chief had

00:53:01.659 --> 00:53:05.000
taken the media to, um, one of the search warrants,

00:53:05.199 --> 00:53:08.320
as a matter of fact, to the guy in Tacoma, um,

00:53:08.900 --> 00:53:13.599
yeah, and had taken the, uh, media to that house

00:53:13.599 --> 00:53:16.300
and they filmed everything and, and they put

00:53:16.300 --> 00:53:21.260
it on the internet news before noon. And so Obviously

00:53:21.260 --> 00:53:24.159
we had to start calling all the teams that hadn't

00:53:24.159 --> 00:53:26.400
yet served their warrants because some teams

00:53:26.400 --> 00:53:29.760
had multiple warrants. Uh, Yakima is a good example.

00:53:29.900 --> 00:53:33.019
We had one group of people, but there was four

00:53:33.019 --> 00:53:34.980
people in the group. So they had to search all

00:53:34.980 --> 00:53:38.500
their places. Um, so we had to start calling

00:53:38.500 --> 00:53:40.820
everybody that hadn't served their warrants yet

00:53:40.820 --> 00:53:43.820
and tell them there's a chance your suspect knows

00:53:43.820 --> 00:53:47.000
it's coming. Yeah. Which is a problem for two

00:53:47.000 --> 00:53:49.500
reasons. One is evidence is going to be disappearing.

00:53:50.409 --> 00:53:53.409
and officers might walk right into an ambush.

00:53:53.630 --> 00:53:55.190
It's an officer safety issue. Yeah, exactly.

00:53:55.769 --> 00:53:58.309
We normally don't tell people anytime that we're

00:53:58.309 --> 00:54:01.389
gone. Yeah, exactly. It's not a good practice.

00:54:02.269 --> 00:54:04.690
Aye, aye, aye. So how do you handle that? You

00:54:04.690 --> 00:54:06.750
just tell everybody to just go right away, huh?

00:54:07.349 --> 00:54:11.289
Yeah, I mean, what can you do? We just told everybody

00:54:11.289 --> 00:54:14.869
this is the deal. They may or may not know it's

00:54:14.869 --> 00:54:18.369
coming. And I think we only have one guy that

00:54:18.369 --> 00:54:21.159
we... knew for sure, knew it was coming. Oh,

00:54:21.239 --> 00:54:24.039
no doubt. I mean, he got rid of all his evidence.

00:54:25.019 --> 00:54:27.860
Yeah, I say that because that one particular

00:54:27.860 --> 00:54:32.539
guy, his phone logs were deleted, everything,

00:54:32.639 --> 00:54:35.340
no text messages, no people's phone numbers.

00:54:37.539 --> 00:54:42.760
He just wiped it clean. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:54:42.760 --> 00:54:45.239
But fortunately, it all ended without anybody

00:54:45.239 --> 00:54:48.139
getting shot or attacked or assaulted, but yeah.

00:54:48.719 --> 00:54:51.659
went off there wasn't there wasn't any physical

00:54:51.659 --> 00:54:54.440
confrontations whatsoever everybody and we had

00:54:54.440 --> 00:54:57.860
a couple guys i was worried about um the the

00:54:57.860 --> 00:55:02.699
guy the borney one we had a SWAT team do it um

00:55:02.699 --> 00:55:07.880
he was a his higher risk he wasn't in in my opinion

00:55:07.880 --> 00:55:11.400
of of him he wasn't a gang member he was a gang

00:55:11.400 --> 00:55:14.579
leader he was the head of a organized crime gang

00:55:14.579 --> 00:55:18.460
and he he referred to his uh subordinates, the

00:55:18.460 --> 00:55:21.019
ones that were just kind of labor, he called

00:55:21.019 --> 00:55:25.880
them monkeys. And the ones that were had more

00:55:25.880 --> 00:55:27.960
responsibilities than just labor, he called them

00:55:27.960 --> 00:55:32.000
soldiers. So we had soldiers and monkeys that

00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:34.460
that he bossed around like that, like he owned

00:55:34.460 --> 00:55:38.340
them. Yeah. Yeah, that struck me in the in the

00:55:38.340 --> 00:55:39.940
book too is right in front of these guys, he

00:55:39.940 --> 00:55:42.280
would refer to them and kind of derogatory terms.

00:55:42.380 --> 00:55:44.500
And obviously nobody's going to stand for that

00:55:44.500 --> 00:55:46.300
unless you're working for the guy or somehow

00:55:46.300 --> 00:55:51.639
otherwise kind of either out of necessity or

00:55:51.639 --> 00:55:54.820
monetary greed, you're loyal to him, right? Yeah.

00:55:55.610 --> 00:55:57.989
I've always wondered how well that loyalty worked

00:55:57.989 --> 00:56:01.309
after they all got arrested. Yeah. That's your

00:56:01.309 --> 00:56:04.389
face though. Borey, Borey's on the hook for trusting

00:56:04.389 --> 00:56:08.210
the, his favorite white guy, right? Yeah. So,

00:56:08.530 --> 00:56:11.929
so that was a funny thing about when I said that

00:56:11.929 --> 00:56:14.389
he called us after we first met him, he called

00:56:14.389 --> 00:56:17.889
us on our way back. Um, I think I left this part

00:56:17.889 --> 00:56:19.849
out, which is one of my favorite at the very

00:56:19.849 --> 00:56:22.349
end of that conversation. He says, I hope I don't

00:56:22.349 --> 00:56:25.670
regret this. And I go, regret what? And he said,

00:56:25.670 --> 00:56:28.449
doing business with Whitey, I've never done business

00:56:28.449 --> 00:56:30.690
with Whitey before and I hope I don't regret

00:56:30.690 --> 00:56:33.949
this. Be fun to talk to him now, wouldn't it?

00:56:34.130 --> 00:56:37.130
Find out what his thoughts are. Good choice on

00:56:37.130 --> 00:56:39.269
the first two Whiteys you decided to deal with.

00:56:41.110 --> 00:56:44.369
Yeah. Well, you know, there is so much more I

00:56:44.369 --> 00:56:46.349
kind of want to talk to you about on this case,

00:56:46.349 --> 00:56:48.309
but I think what we should say at this point

00:56:48.309 --> 00:56:52.630
is... Operation Cody's available on Amazon and

00:56:52.630 --> 00:56:54.909
it's a great read and anybody who wants to kind

00:56:54.909 --> 00:56:57.349
of know all the details of the case and all the

00:56:57.349 --> 00:57:00.730
adventures should definitely pick up your book

00:57:00.730 --> 00:57:03.849
and give it a read. It's a great read. I enjoyed

00:57:03.849 --> 00:57:06.030
it thoroughly. So I can't recommend the book

00:57:06.030 --> 00:57:10.889
enough. But you know, this is a great operation.

00:57:11.469 --> 00:57:13.309
There are so many lessons here to be taken. I

00:57:13.309 --> 00:57:16.260
think if a... whether it's Washington Department

00:57:16.260 --> 00:57:18.480
of Fish and Wildlife, some other state agency,

00:57:18.900 --> 00:57:21.719
or U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service, you know,

00:57:21.719 --> 00:57:24.420
looking at this type of operation where you target

00:57:24.420 --> 00:57:27.940
a problem versus an individual person or an individual

00:57:27.940 --> 00:57:31.559
organization is really valuable, but so many

00:57:31.559 --> 00:57:35.119
takeaways from your book in terms of if an agency's

00:57:35.119 --> 00:57:37.280
going to do this, they got to commit. They got

00:57:37.280 --> 00:57:39.400
to commit the resources, the time, the money,

00:57:39.480 --> 00:57:42.440
the personnel, and the follow -up to make sure

00:57:42.440 --> 00:57:45.280
it gets all done because you You know, you had,

00:57:45.480 --> 00:57:48.239
like we said, 600 UC contacts, 100 suspects,

00:57:48.440 --> 00:57:52.000
1 ,000 charges. You had states involved, Oklahoma,

00:57:52.079 --> 00:57:56.159
New York, Florida, Idaho, South Carolina, Oregon,

00:57:56.780 --> 00:57:59.000
Montana, California, and Illinois is what I counted.

00:58:00.280 --> 00:58:02.719
And then, you know, we didn't get into this,

00:58:02.719 --> 00:58:04.800
but you retired once the takedowns were done.

00:58:04.820 --> 00:58:07.119
And then the agency kind of didn't follow up

00:58:07.119 --> 00:58:09.360
on some of your cases in court. And that was,

00:58:09.559 --> 00:58:12.019
that required you to kind of come back free of

00:58:12.019 --> 00:58:15.369
charge to help. Push that through. I think, you

00:58:15.369 --> 00:58:18.849
know, let me ask you this, Todd, from your view,

00:58:19.429 --> 00:58:22.789
I think I hope that you view Operation Cody as

00:58:22.789 --> 00:58:25.590
a success because I think it it was and it was

00:58:25.590 --> 00:58:27.630
worthwhile. Maybe it didn't. Some of the things

00:58:27.630 --> 00:58:29.449
didn't happen exactly the way you wanted, but

00:58:29.449 --> 00:58:31.690
I think it was a great case. Probably was a wake

00:58:31.690 --> 00:58:34.010
up call to a lot of people in the state of Washington

00:58:34.010 --> 00:58:37.349
about the consequences for being involved in

00:58:37.349 --> 00:58:39.449
wildlife crime. But what do you think were the

00:58:39.449 --> 00:58:42.250
long term impacts of Operation Cody? What are

00:58:42.250 --> 00:58:49.250
your thoughts on it? I think that I think that

00:58:49.250 --> 00:58:52.050
mere fact that we illustrated what's going on

00:58:52.050 --> 00:58:55.130
in, you know, Washington's nothing special in

00:58:55.130 --> 00:58:59.610
that regard. I'm sure that similar activities

00:58:59.610 --> 00:59:02.769
are occurring in every state in the country and

00:59:02.769 --> 00:59:06.730
every province in Canada. These problems are

00:59:06.730 --> 00:59:10.710
not local problems. They're not, I mean, Yeah,

00:59:10.710 --> 00:59:12.849
you're probably not gonna sell a lot of gallbladders

00:59:12.849 --> 00:59:16.289
if you live in a town full of Mennonites in Pennsylvania.

00:59:19.429 --> 00:59:24.909
But in most jurisdictions, there's bear gallbladder

00:59:24.909 --> 00:59:28.929
going on. There's deer and elk meat. We did a

00:59:28.929 --> 00:59:32.650
lot of raptors. I mean, that stuff's going on

00:59:32.650 --> 00:59:36.489
everywhere. And so I hope that the best takeaway

00:59:36.489 --> 00:59:39.989
from it was that other agencies, other jurisdictions,

00:59:40.110 --> 00:59:42.570
and even people in our agency, because everybody's

00:59:42.570 --> 00:59:46.730
new now. It's a whole new squad. We've got a

00:59:46.730 --> 00:59:48.889
new chief. He's a great guy. New deputy chief.

00:59:48.909 --> 00:59:54.269
He's a great guy. So things are wiped a slate

00:59:54.269 --> 00:59:57.010
clean, essentially. Jennifer, my partner, is

00:59:57.010 --> 00:59:59.030
now a captain. She is the captain of the largest

00:59:59.030 --> 01:00:03.769
region in the state. So everything has changed,

01:00:03.889 --> 01:00:05.769
and in my opinion, has changed for the better.

01:00:06.760 --> 01:00:10.800
And I just wanted to educate everybody as to

01:00:10.800 --> 01:00:13.239
what is most likely happening right there in

01:00:13.239 --> 01:00:18.420
your jurisdiction, too. Yeah. And pay attention

01:00:18.420 --> 01:00:20.880
to what you're kind of hearing through the grapevine

01:00:20.880 --> 01:00:22.820
among other enforcement officers, because there's

01:00:22.820 --> 01:00:24.940
going to be a clue about what problems need to

01:00:24.940 --> 01:00:27.699
be attacked. And then this type of operation

01:00:27.699 --> 01:00:29.880
is a real good example of the creative approach

01:00:29.880 --> 01:00:32.960
that you can take to try to tackle a problem

01:00:32.960 --> 01:00:36.599
versus an individual violator, right? Right.

01:00:36.599 --> 01:00:40.320
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Um, I can't tell

01:00:40.320 --> 01:00:41.860
you how much I appreciate you being on this,

01:00:41.880 --> 01:00:45.880
on the program to talk about it. And, uh, thank

01:00:45.880 --> 01:00:47.519
you so much for the work you did. When did you

01:00:47.519 --> 01:00:53.260
retire? 2012, the end of January 30th. I mean,

01:00:53.280 --> 01:00:56.519
I'm sorry, December 31st, 2012. Right at the

01:00:56.519 --> 01:00:59.719
conclusion of operation Cody, right? Yep. A couple

01:00:59.719 --> 01:01:03.039
of months. Uh, yeah, it's during November descent,

01:01:03.239 --> 01:01:07.269
three months later. Yeah. Well, a fantastic operation

01:01:07.269 --> 01:01:10.889
and a fantastic career, Todd. I hope you're proud

01:01:10.889 --> 01:01:13.989
of everything you've accomplished. Thank you.

01:01:14.230 --> 01:01:17.030
And I appreciate your support. Absolutely. Thank

01:01:17.030 --> 01:01:19.389
you so much for being on the show. I appreciate

01:01:19.389 --> 01:01:21.329
it. Maybe we'll have you back sometime. I know

01:01:21.329 --> 01:01:23.110
you've got a hundred other stories you could

01:01:23.110 --> 01:01:26.889
tell us. And everybody else, thanks for joining

01:01:26.889 --> 01:01:34.219
us. We'll see you next time. and is co -produced

01:01:34.219 --> 01:01:37.739
by the DHTV team here at California State University

01:01:37.739 --> 01:01:40.320
Dominguez Hills. Follow us on social media and

01:01:40.320 --> 01:01:42.599
connect with us online at naturessecretservice

01:01:42.599 --> 01:01:43.239
.com.