WEBVTT 00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:02.660 If you'd like to learn more about the topics 00:00:02.660 --> 00:00:06.040 of this episode or any previous episode, visit 00:00:06.040 --> 00:00:09.480 the Nature's Secret Service website at naturessecretservice 00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:14.039 .com and click on All Episodes. As always, thanks 00:00:14.039 --> 00:00:49.759 for listening. Okay people, listen up, here we 00:00:49.759 --> 00:00:53.380 go. This is Nature's Secret Service, and I'm 00:00:53.380 --> 00:00:56.259 your host, Ed Newcomer. Welcome to the final 00:00:56.259 --> 00:00:59.240 episode of Season 1 of Nature's Secret Service. 00:01:00.060 --> 00:01:02.500 So far, you've had the opportunity to be in the 00:01:02.500 --> 00:01:04.799 room for my conversations with some of the best 00:01:04.799 --> 00:01:07.439 federal and state wildlife officers in the business. 00:01:08.379 --> 00:01:11.560 Believe me, there's more to come. A few of you 00:01:11.560 --> 00:01:13.879 have asked, hey, Ed the Fed, what about your 00:01:13.879 --> 00:01:17.379 stories? Well, you're in luck. because the guests 00:01:17.379 --> 00:01:19.939 I had scheduled for the season finale had to 00:01:19.939 --> 00:01:23.659 cancel at the last minute. However, I recently 00:01:23.659 --> 00:01:26.599 appeared on the podcast, Zone 7, to discuss two 00:01:26.599 --> 00:01:29.700 of my cases, including one that I've never talked 00:01:29.700 --> 00:01:34.060 about publicly before. Cheryl McCollum, the host 00:01:34.060 --> 00:01:37.120 of Zone 7, has generously given me permission 00:01:37.120 --> 00:01:40.000 to replay that episode here on the Nature's Secret 00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:42.780 Service channel. If you're interested in true 00:01:42.780 --> 00:01:46.000 crime, I encourage you to tune in subscribe to 00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:49.700 Zone 7. Cheryl is a law enforcement forensics 00:01:49.700 --> 00:01:52.120 professional who knows her stuff and who has 00:01:52.120 --> 00:01:55.000 some great guests on her show. Look for Zone 00:01:55.000 --> 00:01:58.859 7 on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts. 00:02:01.400 --> 00:02:03.280 Nature's Secret Service will be back for season 00:02:03.280 --> 00:02:06.599 2 with more episodes and more great guests. In 00:02:06.599 --> 00:02:09.439 the meantime, enjoy your summer, binge our first 00:02:09.439 --> 00:02:12.539 season again, and watch for bonus episode shorts 00:02:12.539 --> 00:02:15.139 we'll be releasing during the break. 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Now, here's my May 21 appearance 00:02:53.590 --> 00:03:17.000 on Zone 7 with Cheryl McCollum. such a unique 00:03:17.000 --> 00:03:22.379 and just incredible guest. I am certain that 00:03:22.379 --> 00:03:26.879 y 'all have no understanding of what his job 00:03:26.879 --> 00:03:29.099 was, so we're gonna get right to it. Tonight, 00:03:29.639 --> 00:03:33.659 we have special agent with the US Fish and Wildlife 00:03:33.659 --> 00:03:39.259 Service. He served for over 20 years. Ed Newcomer 00:03:39.259 --> 00:03:43.610 worked in Los Angeles. He did a... variety of 00:03:43.610 --> 00:03:47.389 international posts. He retired in 2022, but 00:03:47.389 --> 00:03:51.310 y 'all during his career, he conducted some high 00:03:51.310 --> 00:03:56.629 profile international wildlife trafficking investigations. 00:03:57.650 --> 00:04:01.270 These investigations involved every continent. 00:04:01.669 --> 00:04:04.550 He even went to Antarctica. Hey everyone, Ed 00:04:04.550 --> 00:04:07.449 here cutting in with a quick correction. I never 00:04:07.449 --> 00:04:10.129 personally traveled to Antarctica. If you read 00:04:10.129 --> 00:04:13.000 my bio on the web, You'll see that it says that 00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:15.080 I worked on wildlife trafficking cases during 00:04:15.080 --> 00:04:17.680 my career involving every continent, including 00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:20.459 Antarctica. Cheryl misunderstood that that meant 00:04:20.459 --> 00:04:24.139 that I'd actually traveled there. Actually, I 00:04:24.139 --> 00:04:26.420 conducted an investigation that involved the 00:04:26.420 --> 00:04:29.060 illegal sale of whale meat here in Los Angeles, 00:04:29.379 --> 00:04:31.439 and it turned out that whale meat had come from 00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:35.199 whales harvested from Antarctica. That will be 00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:37.379 part of a future episode because it's connected 00:04:37.379 --> 00:04:41.290 in with that television show, Whale Wars. All 00:04:41.290 --> 00:04:43.709 right, quick correction back to the show. Thanks. 00:05:09.709 --> 00:05:14.730 He has a record of six law enforcement awards 00:05:14.730 --> 00:05:18.250 from the U .S. Attorney General's Office of Los 00:05:18.250 --> 00:05:21.610 Angeles. You can see him talk about his work 00:05:21.610 --> 00:05:25.689 on several documentaries, including Prime's Bug 00:05:25.689 --> 00:05:29.709 Out, A &E Undercover, Caught on Tape, and Animal 00:05:29.709 --> 00:05:34.170 Planet's Animal Black Ops. Ed currently serves 00:05:34.170 --> 00:05:36.810 as the International Law Enforcement Advisor. 00:05:37.180 --> 00:05:40.620 for the Wildlife Investigators Training Alliance. 00:05:41.519 --> 00:05:47.120 Ed is also the host of a hit crime podcast focusing 00:05:47.120 --> 00:05:51.360 on wildlife crime called Nature's Secret Service. 00:05:52.040 --> 00:05:55.740 Ed Newcomer, welcome to Zone 7. Mac, thank you 00:05:55.740 --> 00:05:59.319 so much for having me. I am a huge fan of you 00:05:59.319 --> 00:06:02.300 and your show. I'm just so honored to be here, 00:06:02.300 --> 00:06:04.319 and that was a very generous introduction. So 00:06:04.319 --> 00:06:06.480 thank you very much. Well, you are mighty welcome, 00:06:06.500 --> 00:06:09.279 but you know, we both know I left a lot out. 00:06:09.279 --> 00:06:12.579 You've gotten a lot of awards. You served as 00:06:12.579 --> 00:06:16.000 an ambassador to animals. You are somebody that 00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:20.420 law enforcement, prosecutors, the public all 00:06:20.420 --> 00:06:22.720 just respect, and we appreciate the work you 00:06:22.720 --> 00:06:25.339 have done. Well, thank you. You know what? I 00:06:25.339 --> 00:06:28.759 got to say, I had a blast. I had the greatest 00:06:28.759 --> 00:06:32.120 job on the planet, and I loved it. And honestly, 00:06:33.040 --> 00:06:36.120 I think all the success that I had in my career 00:06:36.120 --> 00:06:38.379 can be chalked up to just trying to keep up with 00:06:38.379 --> 00:06:40.660 my colleagues and meet the high bar that they 00:06:40.660 --> 00:06:43.660 were all setting around me. Amen. Well, you know, 00:06:44.220 --> 00:06:45.939 you and I have been able to talk on the phone 00:06:45.939 --> 00:06:50.180 and one evening we were talking and we were talking 00:06:50.180 --> 00:06:53.970 about undercover work and the danger and special 00:06:53.970 --> 00:06:57.449 ops and all that. When I hung up, my husband 00:06:57.449 --> 00:06:59.829 said, who was that? What kind of special ops? 00:06:59.889 --> 00:07:01.509 And I was like, man, he was doing some undercover 00:07:01.509 --> 00:07:07.009 work on bugs. And Walt was like, is that code 00:07:07.009 --> 00:07:09.870 for something? I said, no, I literally mean bugs. 00:07:10.470 --> 00:07:12.629 And it's something that people, I don't think, 00:07:13.250 --> 00:07:15.930 really understand. And one of the conversations 00:07:15.930 --> 00:07:20.290 you and I talked about was a theft that was done 00:07:20.290 --> 00:07:24.310 at a bug emporium, a museum in Philly, and it 00:07:24.310 --> 00:07:26.370 was like nobody really knew about it. Nobody 00:07:26.370 --> 00:07:30.269 was really talking about it. But when I started 00:07:30.269 --> 00:07:32.449 researching it, because I wanted to do an article 00:07:32.449 --> 00:07:36.129 for Crime Online, I'm like, there are these bugs, 00:07:36.250 --> 00:07:40.839 like, that are so rare. that somebody had to 00:07:40.839 --> 00:07:43.060 have had inside information to know they were 00:07:43.060 --> 00:07:45.500 at this museum. And there were things like the 00:07:45.500 --> 00:07:47.740 eight -eyed spider. And you and I just talked 00:07:47.740 --> 00:07:50.600 about, you know, your average police officer, 00:07:51.060 --> 00:07:53.899 if they were to pull somebody over with his and 00:07:53.899 --> 00:07:56.019 cockroaches, they don't want to fool with them. 00:07:56.139 --> 00:07:58.420 They're just going to say, have a good day. Be 00:07:58.420 --> 00:08:01.439 on your way. I don't think it would dawn on them 00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:05.480 that these creatures could be being trafficked 00:08:05.480 --> 00:08:08.420 or harmed in some way or being sold on the black 00:08:08.420 --> 00:08:12.620 market. Yeah, exactly. And I think that a lot 00:08:12.620 --> 00:08:14.920 of people, when they hear about it, if they do 00:08:14.920 --> 00:08:18.399 hear about it, they assume that it's like maybe 00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:21.860 a hobbyist that's gone rogue or an animal lover 00:08:21.860 --> 00:08:25.160 who just got a little carried away. But in reality, 00:08:25.639 --> 00:08:28.839 these animals can be worth a lot of money, including 00:08:28.839 --> 00:08:32.879 insects, fish, reptiles, mammals. And so the 00:08:32.879 --> 00:08:36.639 people that are involved in criminal activity 00:08:36.639 --> 00:08:40.370 related to animals They are just criminals. They're 00:08:40.370 --> 00:08:43.409 in it for the money. And there's a lot of money 00:08:43.409 --> 00:08:45.649 to be had if you know what you're doing. That's 00:08:45.649 --> 00:08:51.149 right. How did you get into this business? Like, 00:08:51.269 --> 00:08:54.210 what drove you to look at the US Fish and Wildlife 00:08:54.210 --> 00:08:57.769 Service? Yeah, it was actually really kind of 00:08:57.769 --> 00:09:01.009 a lucky happenstance, honestly. I, you know, 00:09:01.090 --> 00:09:04.110 from time I was a kid I wanted to be in law enforcement 00:09:04.110 --> 00:09:06.850 I was always interested in that type of career 00:09:06.850 --> 00:09:09.950 or you know public service in particular related 00:09:09.950 --> 00:09:13.590 to kind of doing the right thing and you know 00:09:13.590 --> 00:09:15.629 for a long time as a really young kid I thought 00:09:15.629 --> 00:09:18.750 I'll be a police officer someday and then I don't 00:09:18.750 --> 00:09:20.429 know at some point in my life I realized there 00:09:20.429 --> 00:09:22.330 was such a thing as a game warden and I thought 00:09:22.330 --> 00:09:24.750 oh police for wildlife that sounds kind of cool 00:09:24.750 --> 00:09:27.309 because I always I grew up in Denver and near 00:09:27.309 --> 00:09:30.049 the Rockies and my family always instilled a 00:09:30.049 --> 00:09:33.419 very high appreciation for the natural world 00:09:33.419 --> 00:09:38.419 and wildlife, you know, among all of us. And 00:09:38.419 --> 00:09:41.299 then really I went to college at the University 00:09:41.299 --> 00:09:44.580 of Colorado and I was majoring in political science 00:09:44.580 --> 00:09:46.460 thinking I was going to go on to law school. 00:09:46.759 --> 00:09:49.220 And, you know, that would give me a lot of opportunities 00:09:49.220 --> 00:09:52.299 to pursue a lot of different, you know, public 00:09:52.299 --> 00:09:55.340 service law and law enforcement oriented careers. 00:09:55.899 --> 00:09:58.659 And I just made a shortcut through the biology 00:09:58.659 --> 00:10:01.289 building to get to my classroom that I needed 00:10:01.289 --> 00:10:04.269 to go to. And I just happened to look at the 00:10:04.269 --> 00:10:06.669 bulletin board and I saw there was a job announcement 00:10:06.669 --> 00:10:09.889 for special agent for US Fish and Wildlife Service. 00:10:09.909 --> 00:10:12.850 And it kind of stopped me in my tracks. And I 00:10:12.850 --> 00:10:15.029 read about it. And I was like, I didn't even 00:10:15.029 --> 00:10:19.870 know this position existed. But as I read about 00:10:19.870 --> 00:10:22.590 it, I thought, shoot, these guys and gals are 00:10:22.590 --> 00:10:26.730 the FBI agents for wildlife crime. And that is 00:10:26.730 --> 00:10:32.100 exactly what I want to do. And so I went on and 00:10:32.100 --> 00:10:37.000 went to law school. But as soon as they had their 00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:39.500 first opening for special agents after I graduated 00:10:39.500 --> 00:10:41.500 from law school, I put my application in for 00:10:41.500 --> 00:10:43.820 sure. I didn't get hired right away because most 00:10:43.820 --> 00:10:49.220 people don't. But I kept at it. And I accidentally 00:10:49.220 --> 00:10:51.220 practiced law for 10 years because it took me 00:10:51.220 --> 00:10:53.960 about 10 years to get the attention of the Fish 00:10:53.960 --> 00:10:56.360 and Wildlife Service, get that interview, and 00:10:56.360 --> 00:11:00.590 get in. Wow. What a perfect parent. I mean, you 00:11:00.590 --> 00:11:02.950 already love nature. You already love being outdoors 00:11:02.950 --> 00:11:07.730 and now you've got this solid decade of, you 00:11:07.730 --> 00:11:11.330 know, legal training. I mean, what a gift you 00:11:11.330 --> 00:11:14.629 were to them. Well, it, uh, I didn't realize 00:11:14.629 --> 00:11:17.590 what a benefit it would be to have been, uh, 00:11:17.590 --> 00:11:19.769 you know, trained as a lawyer, but also most 00:11:19.769 --> 00:11:21.850 of my career as a lawyer during that 10 years 00:11:21.850 --> 00:11:25.330 was as a prosecutor. And so, you know, I understood 00:11:25.330 --> 00:11:28.029 what prosecutors needed. uh, when they, when 00:11:28.029 --> 00:11:30.190 they were preparing a criminal case for trial. 00:11:30.610 --> 00:11:34.230 So it really, it made it easy for me to, as I 00:11:34.230 --> 00:11:36.490 was conducting investigations as a federal agent, 00:11:36.690 --> 00:11:38.590 it made me easy. It made it easy for me to kind 00:11:38.590 --> 00:11:42.330 of look ahead and say, okay, I know what questions 00:11:42.330 --> 00:11:44.029 the prosecutor is going to ask me when I bring 00:11:44.029 --> 00:11:46.110 this case to them. And I know what they're going 00:11:46.110 --> 00:11:49.529 to want, uh, if we're going to go to trial and, 00:11:49.730 --> 00:11:53.809 and when. I've already said it, but you have 00:11:53.809 --> 00:11:56.389 worked some of the most notable cases with the 00:11:56.389 --> 00:11:59.929 U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service, but you started 00:11:59.929 --> 00:12:04.409 off with an unexpected bang, didn't you? You 00:12:04.409 --> 00:12:06.970 know, I did, and it wasn't the one I wanted, 00:12:07.789 --> 00:12:11.370 and it wasn't the one I expected, because, you 00:12:11.370 --> 00:12:13.629 know, honestly, when you become a special agent 00:12:13.629 --> 00:12:16.210 for the Fish and Wildlife Service, there's, you 00:12:16.210 --> 00:12:19.870 know... 25 plus federal wildlife laws that we 00:12:19.870 --> 00:12:22.870 enforce. Plus, we can enforce the entire Title 00:12:22.870 --> 00:12:26.769 18 criminal code. But you're thinking, come on. 00:12:26.830 --> 00:12:28.830 You're a federal agent. You know you're going 00:12:28.830 --> 00:12:30.929 to be working on international wildlife trafficking, 00:12:31.090 --> 00:12:33.809 especially because right out of the Academy, 00:12:33.850 --> 00:12:37.250 I was sent to Los Angeles. And Los Angeles, New 00:12:37.250 --> 00:12:42.409 York, Miami are the huge field offices that handle 00:12:42.409 --> 00:12:44.549 most of the international trafficking cases. 00:12:45.149 --> 00:12:48.049 So you're, you go there and you think, Oh boy, 00:12:48.230 --> 00:12:50.289 I'm gonna, I can't wait for my first case involving 00:12:50.289 --> 00:12:54.330 a tiger. Right. Uh, but no, really the first, 00:12:54.570 --> 00:12:57.289 uh, the first big case I was assigned to my, 00:12:57.370 --> 00:13:00.730 on my own was involved. It kind of notorious 00:13:00.730 --> 00:13:05.370 insect trafficker. And I kind of was like, Oh 00:13:05.370 --> 00:13:07.990 my gosh, I don't want this bug case, you know? 00:13:09.169 --> 00:13:12.269 Uh, but as I kind of dug into it, what, basically 00:13:12.269 --> 00:13:15.289 the way it started is we got a tip. from another 00:13:15.289 --> 00:13:18.850 agent in our, uh, in the field office in Texas, 00:13:19.450 --> 00:13:22.490 he had received information from a possible informant 00:13:22.490 --> 00:13:27.629 that this wanted kind of notorious insect trafficker 00:13:27.629 --> 00:13:30.429 was going to be at this huge event in Los Angeles 00:13:30.429 --> 00:13:34.870 called the insect fair or the bug fair. And so 00:13:34.870 --> 00:13:37.429 my boss was like, Hey, Ed, you know, you're new. 00:13:37.549 --> 00:13:39.309 Why don't you go down to the bug fair, manage 00:13:39.309 --> 00:13:41.570 this informant. He's going to try to make some 00:13:41.570 --> 00:13:44.039 contact with this guy. And the more I looked 00:13:44.039 --> 00:13:46.840 into it, I realized, you know, I found some old 00:13:46.840 --> 00:13:49.460 case reports from a previous agent who had retired, 00:13:50.139 --> 00:13:52.460 who had looked at this subject. And this guy 00:13:52.460 --> 00:13:56.100 was a bad dude. He was going into national parks 00:13:56.100 --> 00:13:59.940 all over the country. Um, basically poaching 00:13:59.940 --> 00:14:03.159 butterflies in particular, but Beatles as well 00:14:03.159 --> 00:14:06.600 from our national parks, packaging them up and 00:14:06.600 --> 00:14:08.340 shipping them overseas where he would sell them 00:14:08.340 --> 00:14:11.350 for huge profits. And so, you know, I'm looking 00:14:11.350 --> 00:14:13.669 at the case reports and I see that this other 00:14:13.669 --> 00:14:17.289 agent had spent a lot of, you know, legwork and 00:14:17.289 --> 00:14:19.330 time trying to get this guy. And by the way, 00:14:19.350 --> 00:14:22.210 the guy's name is Yoshi Kojima. He's a Japanese 00:14:22.210 --> 00:14:26.149 national and this other agent just, you know, 00:14:26.210 --> 00:14:30.210 was so close. He was always just like, uh, you 00:14:30.210 --> 00:14:33.090 know, a hair's breadth away from, from catching 00:14:33.090 --> 00:14:36.350 Yoshi. Um, but he just couldn't get him and ultimately 00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:39.960 agent, a guy, a great agent named John Mendoza. 00:14:40.139 --> 00:14:42.500 Unfortunately, his supervisory chain of command 00:14:42.500 --> 00:14:44.500 told him, Hey, you got to close this case. We're 00:14:44.500 --> 00:14:46.480 spending too much time on it. It's a bug case. 00:14:46.659 --> 00:14:49.519 There's nothing to it. We're not. And he very, 00:14:49.519 --> 00:14:53.320 you know, reluctantly closed his case down. And 00:14:53.320 --> 00:14:55.580 then a few years later, boom, we get this tip 00:14:55.580 --> 00:14:58.659 that Kojima is kind of back in business. He's 00:14:58.659 --> 00:15:00.879 back in the States. He's, uh, he's going to be 00:15:00.879 --> 00:15:04.240 at this huge insect fair. And that I thought, 00:15:05.159 --> 00:15:07.629 okay, I'll go. check it out and the thing freaking 00:15:07.629 --> 00:15:12.730 exploded right on my lap yeah and i'll tell you 00:15:12.730 --> 00:15:16.590 it's a hard sale to get people to maybe be sympathetic 00:15:16.590 --> 00:15:21.509 to the dung beetle but but you know butterflies 00:15:21.509 --> 00:15:25.389 everybody i think sees the beauty and you know 00:15:25.389 --> 00:15:28.690 just how magnificent they are when they morph 00:15:28.690 --> 00:15:32.330 and so that's the story i even children i think 00:15:32.330 --> 00:15:36.440 would resonate that this person is gonna poach 00:15:36.440 --> 00:15:39.399 these animals and whether they stay alive or 00:15:39.399 --> 00:15:43.320 not is he's going to sell them right and and 00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:45.620 you know what that's a that's a great perspective 00:15:45.620 --> 00:15:49.559 because i that was my perspective coming into 00:15:49.559 --> 00:15:52.940 it probably like yours and many of your listeners 00:15:52.940 --> 00:15:56.320 our experience with butterflies is as kids running 00:15:56.320 --> 00:15:59.240 around with nets catching you know swallowtails 00:15:59.240 --> 00:16:01.960 or whatever and letting them go, or maybe we 00:16:01.960 --> 00:16:03.840 had a little butterfly collection as kids. I 00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:06.980 didn't, but you know, a lot of kids did. And 00:16:06.980 --> 00:16:09.120 I never, you know, you don't think of insects 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:12.799 as something that might be endangered or in need 00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:14.299 of protection because they're just everywhere. 00:16:14.460 --> 00:16:16.519 Normally, normally you're shooing them away more 00:16:16.519 --> 00:16:20.080 than anything else. But as I got into this case, 00:16:20.340 --> 00:16:23.899 I realized that There are a lot of insects around 00:16:23.899 --> 00:16:26.519 the world that are critically endangered, listed 00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:29.120 as threatened or endangered under the U .S. Endangered 00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:32.399 Species Act, protected by international treaty 00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:35.200 known as CITES, which is the Convention on International 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:38.899 Trade in Endangered Species. And as I thought 00:16:38.899 --> 00:16:43.759 about it, I thought, you know, if an insect is 00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:47.639 endangered, almost extinct, what do you think's 00:16:47.639 --> 00:16:50.080 happening with the other animals in that ecosystem, 00:16:50.360 --> 00:16:53.960 right? So I'm telling you if a birdwing butterfly 00:16:53.960 --> 00:16:57.419 in Indonesia is struggling to maintain its you 00:16:57.419 --> 00:17:00.860 know Species I guarantee you the tigers that 00:17:00.860 --> 00:17:02.779 live in that jungle are having a problem the 00:17:02.779 --> 00:17:05.039 rhinos that are in that jungle are having a problem 00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:08.220 every animal They're all connected. Yeah for 00:17:08.220 --> 00:17:10.619 sure. No doubt Yeah, so it'll start with the 00:17:10.619 --> 00:17:12.920 frogs and lizards and then it'll move to whatever 00:17:12.920 --> 00:17:15.980 eats them and whatever eats them and yeah, that's 00:17:15.980 --> 00:17:18.589 what happens Yeah. And you know, there's another 00:17:18.589 --> 00:17:21.509 aspect to this case you're working, though. When 00:17:21.509 --> 00:17:24.509 you're looking at this thing internationally, 00:17:25.109 --> 00:17:27.549 and you're seeing how he goes to these different 00:17:27.549 --> 00:17:29.710 continents, and he gets these different butterflies, 00:17:30.190 --> 00:17:36.029 and the way he sells them, this web of criminality 00:17:36.029 --> 00:17:38.809 that he has has got to be a little shocking to 00:17:38.809 --> 00:17:42.470 you. Yes. Uh, and that was very shocking as I 00:17:42.470 --> 00:17:46.329 got to know. So the way this rolled out was the 00:17:46.329 --> 00:17:49.349 plan was we had an informant that was going to 00:17:49.349 --> 00:17:51.490 go to the bug fair and make some contacts with 00:17:51.490 --> 00:17:54.269 Kojima and just kind of get a feel for what he 00:17:54.269 --> 00:17:56.930 was up to. And maybe we'd get lucky and he did 00:17:56.930 --> 00:18:00.410 meant to making doing something illegal. And 00:18:00.410 --> 00:18:03.109 my job was really just to manage the informant, 00:18:03.130 --> 00:18:06.049 help him operate his undercover equipment, his 00:18:06.049 --> 00:18:07.950 recording equipment, and, you know, make sure 00:18:07.950 --> 00:18:10.029 he was safe, you know, We didn't think Yoshi 00:18:10.029 --> 00:18:12.789 Kojima was dangerous and this was at a public 00:18:12.789 --> 00:18:15.049 event. So nothing was going to happen, but nonetheless, 00:18:15.230 --> 00:18:18.029 you have an agent there and this poor guy during 00:18:18.029 --> 00:18:20.549 the whole day, Yoshi just really wouldn't talk 00:18:20.549 --> 00:18:25.210 to him. Anyway, so at the end of the day, I kind 00:18:25.210 --> 00:18:26.910 of got frustrated and I thought, wow, what the 00:18:26.910 --> 00:18:28.609 hell? I'm just going to walk up and talk to Yoshi 00:18:28.609 --> 00:18:31.150 Kojima myself. Cause I was there playing close. 00:18:31.329 --> 00:18:34.740 He didn't know who I was. So I. You know played 00:18:34.740 --> 00:18:37.079 myself off as a novice asked him a lot of questions 00:18:37.079 --> 00:18:38.960 about what he was selling which of course were 00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:42.240 all legal but as I and that and that Kickstarted 00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:44.299 this relationship that I built in an undercover 00:18:44.299 --> 00:18:47.160 capacity with Kojima that lasted about three 00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:51.240 years and took me three years to make a case 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:54.759 against him because as I learned he was extremely 00:18:54.759 --> 00:18:58.500 paranoid he He had a heavy Japanese accent. So 00:18:58.500 --> 00:19:01.079 he he had trouble pronouncing fish and wildlife 00:19:01.079 --> 00:19:05.049 So he he would often tell me I mean, he, he had 00:19:05.049 --> 00:19:07.230 no idea I worked for fish and wildlife, but he 00:19:07.230 --> 00:19:09.609 would often tell me that I had to watch out and 00:19:09.609 --> 00:19:12.170 be careful because the fish and wild guys were 00:19:12.170 --> 00:19:13.890 out there. And he always called us the fish and 00:19:13.890 --> 00:19:18.210 wild guys. And he, he had known that John Mendoza 00:19:18.210 --> 00:19:21.250 was after him years before. Then he bragged about 00:19:21.250 --> 00:19:24.390 how he outsmarted special agent John Mendoza 00:19:24.390 --> 00:19:27.069 with the fish and wild guys. And that, that really 00:19:27.259 --> 00:19:30.839 annoyed me and it put you know put the emphasis 00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:33.839 in I guess the fire under me to make sure that 00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:36.339 I didn't allow somebody to think that they pulled 00:19:36.339 --> 00:19:42.099 one over on the Fish and Wildcats. After three 00:19:42.099 --> 00:19:45.160 years you finally got a break somebody called 00:19:45.160 --> 00:19:49.440 in a tip tell us who the person was if you know 00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:54.519 they called in talking about a Ted Nelson. Well, 00:19:54.859 --> 00:19:57.240 I got to be honest with you. This was not a break. 00:19:57.380 --> 00:20:00.519 This was actually the second time that I thought 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:04.079 I had completely driven this case right into 00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:07.339 the ground. You know, I was a new agent and all 00:20:07.339 --> 00:20:09.480 around me, all my fellow agents were basically 00:20:09.480 --> 00:20:11.480 killing it. They were making case after case 00:20:11.480 --> 00:20:14.619 and here I am. I got this big opportunity and 00:20:14.619 --> 00:20:17.480 Yoshi Kojima was a difficult person to work undercover. 00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:20.359 He, I always described him as like a junior high 00:20:20.359 --> 00:20:23.339 school boyfriend or girlfriend. If you didn't, 00:20:23.380 --> 00:20:25.640 if you were not available when he called or he 00:20:25.640 --> 00:20:29.160 wanted your attention, um, he would stop talking 00:20:29.160 --> 00:20:31.539 to me for weeks at a time. And it was, it was 00:20:31.539 --> 00:20:36.059 frustrating. And yeah, there were a couple of 00:20:36.059 --> 00:20:37.880 times there where he just would kind of cut me 00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:39.740 off and I'd think, Oh boy, this case is over. 00:20:40.619 --> 00:20:43.359 And the, so let me back up a little bit before 00:20:43.359 --> 00:20:47.339 I get to this tip. You mentioned ultimately after 00:20:47.339 --> 00:20:49.960 that, I introduced myself to him at that bug 00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:53.480 fair. He took a liking to me. and he actually 00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:56.420 at the end of the day he gave me a gift of some 00:20:56.420 --> 00:20:59.000 really you know worthless dried butterflies and 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:00.960 to be clear for your listeners these are not 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:04.839 live butterflies he they're captured out in the 00:21:04.839 --> 00:21:06.740 wild usually what they do is they capture the 00:21:06.740 --> 00:21:08.960 caterpillars they bring the caterpillars in just 00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:11.720 like you would as a kid you put them in aquariums 00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:14.359 or tanks and they let them cocoon as soon as 00:21:14.359 --> 00:21:16.740 they hatch they kill them because now their wings 00:21:16.740 --> 00:21:19.180 are in perfect condition and then they're mounted 00:21:19.180 --> 00:21:22.259 they're pinned in a box Kind of like what you'd 00:21:22.259 --> 00:21:23.839 see at a museum and that's how they're valuable. 00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:28.059 They're sold pinned and So he gave me a box of 00:21:28.059 --> 00:21:30.039 pins dried butterflies that weren't valuable 00:21:30.039 --> 00:21:33.700 just as a gift and this kind of sparked off this 00:21:33.700 --> 00:21:36.839 three -year relationship where ultimately He 00:21:36.839 --> 00:21:39.579 started to invite me to go to lunch dinner go 00:21:39.579 --> 00:21:42.859 out for coffee and he very carefully groomed 00:21:42.859 --> 00:21:45.759 me to become a business partner with him and 00:21:45.759 --> 00:21:48.559 His idea was he would send his plan was he was 00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:53.619 gonna send me butterflies from japan that i would 00:21:53.619 --> 00:21:56.700 then facilitate selling online to various collectors 00:21:56.700 --> 00:21:59.299 and it was real clear all of us in the office 00:21:59.299 --> 00:22:02.259 we knew okay well kojima's and by the way my 00:22:02.259 --> 00:22:05.759 undercover name was ted nelson and it was it 00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:09.160 was clear to us okay kojima's setting me up to 00:22:09.160 --> 00:22:11.599 take the fall he's going to set up this business 00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:14.920 and if any fish and wild guys come calling He'll 00:22:14.920 --> 00:22:17.319 feed them Ted Nelson, and he'll walk away and 00:22:17.319 --> 00:22:18.960 slink off in the background. So we knew that 00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:20.819 was happening, but it didn't really matter because 00:22:20.819 --> 00:22:23.019 our hope was, OK, he's going to send us some 00:22:23.019 --> 00:22:25.759 protected butterflies and hope that Ted Nelson 00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:27.980 can sell them. But he wasn't. He wouldn't send 00:22:27.980 --> 00:22:32.099 me anything. So between all this junior high 00:22:32.099 --> 00:22:34.119 school behavior of not talking to me for weeks 00:22:34.119 --> 00:22:36.680 and not sending me anything but promising to, 00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:42.359 I decided being a young, you know, new. Creative 00:22:42.359 --> 00:22:44.700 thinking agent. I said I'm gonna lure this guy 00:22:44.700 --> 00:22:47.720 back by creating my own I'm gonna start selling 00:22:47.720 --> 00:22:50.859 what looks I'm gonna create a situation that 00:22:50.859 --> 00:22:54.220 looks like I'm selling Butterflies on eBay. I'm 00:22:54.220 --> 00:22:55.859 not really gonna sell them. I'm just gonna create 00:22:55.859 --> 00:22:59.960 a fake eBay account and So the idea of course 00:22:59.960 --> 00:23:02.700 as you can imagine is he will call me and say 00:23:02.700 --> 00:23:05.079 hey Ted Where you getting these I can supply 00:23:05.079 --> 00:23:07.960 you with better material for less money. Well 00:23:07.960 --> 00:23:11.549 smart I thought but what happened was he started 00:23:11.549 --> 00:23:14.150 to see me as a competitor and he started to get 00:23:14.150 --> 00:23:16.569 mad at me and I tried to reassure him I was like 00:23:16.569 --> 00:23:18.950 hey you know you just weren't sending anything 00:23:18.950 --> 00:23:21.089 and so I had to find somebody else and I'd rather 00:23:21.089 --> 00:23:24.230 work with you but he wasn't having it and he 00:23:24.230 --> 00:23:26.450 was getting more and more angry and I was getting 00:23:26.450 --> 00:23:28.930 more and more panicked that the relationship 00:23:28.930 --> 00:23:31.829 was crashing and burning and this culminated 00:23:31.829 --> 00:23:34.349 in this tip you mentioned now we come back to 00:23:34.349 --> 00:23:38.400 this tip One day I get a phone call from a California 00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:41.940 State Game Warden who monitors their tip line. 00:23:42.019 --> 00:23:45.079 California State Fish and Wildlife which is the 00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:48.799 state agency that you know does enforce the state 00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:51.180 wildlife laws. They have a tip line that you 00:23:51.180 --> 00:23:54.079 can call that's 1 -800 -NUMBER and one day this 00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:56.240 Game Warden checks and there's this heavy Japanese 00:23:56.240 --> 00:24:00.339 accented caller who is reporting Ted Nelson for 00:24:00.339 --> 00:24:05.529 illegally selling butterflies on eBay. And so 00:24:05.529 --> 00:24:08.990 I asked him to send me the tape and we all listened 00:24:08.990 --> 00:24:11.750 to it at my office and everybody, all the agents 00:24:11.750 --> 00:24:14.269 in the office were like, Oh boy, and you're, 00:24:14.529 --> 00:24:17.269 you're never going to get Kojima now because 00:24:17.269 --> 00:24:20.130 now that he's turned you in, if you stay in the 00:24:20.130 --> 00:24:22.809 business, uh, he's going to assume that you have 00:24:22.809 --> 00:24:24.970 been flipped as an informant. He's never going 00:24:24.970 --> 00:24:28.809 to trust you. So I thought, Oh, okay. Well, case 00:24:28.809 --> 00:24:32.130 is over. I screwed this case up and like, I kind 00:24:32.130 --> 00:24:34.950 of ignored it for a while and that was this big 00:24:34.950 --> 00:24:37.349 tip that came in. It didn't help us at all. It 00:24:37.349 --> 00:24:39.430 actually really hurt us because here our bad 00:24:39.430 --> 00:24:42.950 guy is turning in the undercover agents. Yeah, 00:24:43.289 --> 00:24:50.170 that is wicked. Yeah, it wasn't good um and you 00:24:50.170 --> 00:24:53.650 know I had learned during this time this is probably 00:24:53.650 --> 00:24:57.509 two years in I had learned that Kojima had this 00:24:57.509 --> 00:25:01.009 massive network of people around the world who 00:25:01.009 --> 00:25:04.690 he paid to collect uh insects mostly butterflies 00:25:04.690 --> 00:25:08.150 but also some beetles all over the world he he'd 00:25:08.150 --> 00:25:11.130 take advantage of local people he basically recruit 00:25:11.130 --> 00:25:13.710 them to collect stuff they had no idea what they 00:25:13.710 --> 00:25:15.430 were collecting they didn't know it was worth 00:25:15.430 --> 00:25:18.069 you know they had a butterfly that was worth 00:25:18.069 --> 00:25:20.329 ten thousand dollars they just knew they were 00:25:20.329 --> 00:25:22.329 going to get paid a hundred dollars from Kojima 00:25:22.329 --> 00:25:25.930 for collecting it and as a result of this huge 00:25:25.930 --> 00:25:30.940 network he could pretty much get any any insect 00:25:30.940 --> 00:25:33.299 you wanted. So if you were interested in the 00:25:33.299 --> 00:25:35.859 one of the most endangered butterflies in the 00:25:35.859 --> 00:25:39.240 world let's say the you know the Ornithoptera 00:25:39.240 --> 00:25:41.859 alexandria which is one of the biggest butterfly 00:25:41.859 --> 00:25:44.799 in the world it's about 12 inches across wingspan 00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:47.980 and entirely endangered he could get it and you 00:25:47.980 --> 00:25:50.319 know universities and museums can't even get 00:25:50.319 --> 00:25:53.500 those specimens for their you know scientific 00:25:53.500 --> 00:25:57.160 collections. So I realized this guy was an important 00:25:57.160 --> 00:26:00.599 player and here I screwed the case up. So much, 00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:02.359 so much for that great introduction you just 00:26:02.359 --> 00:26:04.680 gave me, right? Here's this great agent that 00:26:04.680 --> 00:26:08.299 basically screwed up this case. Anyway, Ed, thanks 00:26:08.299 --> 00:26:12.359 for coming. Best things is on seven. One of your 00:26:12.359 --> 00:26:16.119 best episodes ever. But here's the thing, and 00:26:16.119 --> 00:26:18.420 this is what I want, you know, young investigators 00:26:18.420 --> 00:26:21.640 listening to this show to think about. Change 00:26:21.640 --> 00:26:25.049 the word butterfly to heroin. It could still 00:26:25.049 --> 00:26:27.930 take you three years with a heavy hitter. You 00:26:27.930 --> 00:26:30.470 could think you've ruined it multiple times. 00:26:30.509 --> 00:26:34.910 Stay in the game. Keep playing because it's going 00:26:34.910 --> 00:26:38.049 to possibly work out. And if not, you're still 00:26:38.049 --> 00:26:40.529 going to learn something you can use on the next 00:26:40.529 --> 00:26:44.609 case. So keep telling us what happened now. Everybody 00:26:44.609 --> 00:26:47.750 thinks, oh, well, Ed, that's over. You know, 00:26:47.750 --> 00:26:51.289 that is actually a very good kind of teaching 00:26:51.289 --> 00:26:54.849 moment, right? You're absolutely right. And it 00:26:54.849 --> 00:26:57.609 is a good lesson for young investigators because 00:26:57.609 --> 00:27:00.670 I certainly had this feeling of being a little 00:27:00.670 --> 00:27:03.289 depressed that this case was over. I was a little 00:27:03.289 --> 00:27:06.089 worried that I had, you know, been burned or 00:27:06.089 --> 00:27:08.190 whatever. And I think a lot of new agents in 00:27:08.190 --> 00:27:09.890 particular, the first time they do undercover 00:27:09.890 --> 00:27:12.829 work, they think they're at every moment, they 00:27:12.829 --> 00:27:14.430 think they're burned and the people know that 00:27:14.430 --> 00:27:19.720 they're cops. So what I did. my boss actually 00:27:19.720 --> 00:27:23.119 suggested she said why don't you close this case 00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:28.559 and I kind of said no I kind of begged her to 00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:31.940 let me keep it open so I wasn't I didn't really 00:27:31.940 --> 00:27:34.640 work on the Kojima case for a few months but 00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:36.920 I kind of just kept it on the corner of my desk 00:27:36.920 --> 00:27:40.119 and I started to work on other things honestly 00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:42.220 I picked up other cases I started to work on 00:27:42.220 --> 00:27:46.880 another pretty detailed undercover case and lo 00:27:46.880 --> 00:27:50.309 and behold Out of nowhere, you know Kojima kind 00:27:50.309 --> 00:27:52.390 of disappeared from the US after that. He wasn't 00:27:52.390 --> 00:27:55.269 coming to the bug fair anymore He was still dealing 00:27:55.269 --> 00:27:57.289 we knew that but you know, nobody was really 00:27:57.289 --> 00:28:01.690 seeing him and Lo and behold, I you know in about 00:28:01.690 --> 00:28:04.069 a year and a half later, maybe a year later I 00:28:04.069 --> 00:28:06.970 get a just a random phone call from somebody 00:28:06.970 --> 00:28:10.250 in the insect business a legitimate dealer Who 00:28:10.250 --> 00:28:12.450 says hey, I heard a rumor that Kojima is coming 00:28:12.450 --> 00:28:15.930 back to the insect fair in May which was May 00:28:15.930 --> 00:28:20.440 2006 and I said to my boss I said you know what 00:28:20.440 --> 00:28:23.819 I'm gonna give this one more shot and I cooked 00:28:23.819 --> 00:28:27.599 up this plan where I would go to the fair I'd 00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:30.799 find him and then I'd just hope for the best 00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:34.240 and try to manufacture an accidental encounter 00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:37.839 with the guy and see what happened I had a plan 00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:40.339 for what would what I would say and how things 00:28:40.339 --> 00:28:43.119 would go because you know he knows he turned 00:28:43.119 --> 00:28:45.799 me in he's got to be wondering if I know he turned 00:28:45.799 --> 00:28:49.920 me in So I found him. I went to the fair that 00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:51.720 year and I found him. It was pretty easy. His 00:28:51.720 --> 00:28:54.680 unique character, Yoshiko Tsubo, was a funny 00:28:54.680 --> 00:28:57.880 guy. He was in his mid -50s then. He always wore 00:28:57.880 --> 00:29:02.039 cargo shorts, a Hawaiian shirt, and a fanny pack 00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:04.299 that was adjusted to the front. And he kind of 00:29:04.299 --> 00:29:07.140 had thinning hair that he didn't comb very often. 00:29:08.140 --> 00:29:11.019 And the funny thing is in that fanny pack, if 00:29:11.019 --> 00:29:14.059 any crook in LA had known... this little Japanese 00:29:14.059 --> 00:29:15.940 man was walking around with ten thousand dollars 00:29:15.940 --> 00:29:18.680 cash in his fanny pack. A hundred percent! I 00:29:18.680 --> 00:29:20.619 can't believe the guy never got robbed in LA 00:29:20.619 --> 00:29:23.660 but he carried a lot of cash in his fanny pack. 00:29:24.220 --> 00:29:28.000 So I saw him and I knew that there were two main 00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:30.259 halls in the museum where they were displaying 00:29:30.259 --> 00:29:33.119 all these insects that were being sold and these 00:29:33.119 --> 00:29:35.740 insect fairs are really crazy to go to if anybody 00:29:35.740 --> 00:29:39.180 ever has a chance to visit one. They're open 00:29:39.180 --> 00:29:41.279 to the public and there's a lot of just regular 00:29:41.420 --> 00:29:43.420 you know, James and Joe's in there with their 00:29:43.420 --> 00:29:46.480 kids looking at insects that are very common, 00:29:46.599 --> 00:29:49.559 maybe sold for a dollar or two to be penned in 00:29:49.559 --> 00:29:52.140 a collection, but then there are also these heavy 00:29:52.140 --> 00:29:55.599 duty collectors and they're in there looking 00:29:55.599 --> 00:29:58.720 for the insects that are being, you know, sold 00:29:58.720 --> 00:30:01.059 for five, six hundred thousand dollars a piece 00:30:01.059 --> 00:30:04.279 for, you know, collections. So Kojima kind of 00:30:04.279 --> 00:30:06.910 moved in those circles, but I knew that he was 00:30:06.910 --> 00:30:08.809 going to have to move from one of the exhibit 00:30:08.809 --> 00:30:11.130 halls to the other through a pretty narrow walkway 00:30:11.130 --> 00:30:13.109 so I just kind of hung out in there until I saw 00:30:13.109 --> 00:30:15.410 him coming and then I made it look like I was 00:30:15.410 --> 00:30:18.150 walking the other direction and sure enough he 00:30:18.150 --> 00:30:21.549 saw me I saw him I feigned surprise he looked 00:30:21.549 --> 00:30:25.150 genuinely surprised and he looked nervous he 00:30:25.150 --> 00:30:29.029 looked scared like he was afraid of me for some 00:30:29.029 --> 00:30:31.509 reason uh probably probably because he thought 00:30:31.509 --> 00:30:34.109 I knew he had turned me in yeah maybe somebody 00:30:34.109 --> 00:30:38.180 paid you a visit Yeah, exactly. So, uh, I made 00:30:38.180 --> 00:30:40.400 the initial approach and I kind of open arms, 00:30:40.579 --> 00:30:44.980 big smile on my face, you know, acted so happy 00:30:44.980 --> 00:30:47.460 to see him. And one of the very first things 00:30:47.460 --> 00:30:49.180 I said to him, which was something I had planned 00:30:49.180 --> 00:30:53.099 out pretty carefully was I thanked him and I 00:30:53.099 --> 00:30:57.480 said, I owe you a huge debt. And he kind of, 00:30:57.480 --> 00:30:59.160 you know, looked at me in a puzzled way and I 00:30:59.160 --> 00:31:03.480 said, look, some a -hole turned me in to the 00:31:03.480 --> 00:31:06.920 fish and wild guys. these agents showed up at 00:31:06.920 --> 00:31:10.180 my house and they tried to search my place but 00:31:10.180 --> 00:31:12.880 thank you for the advice you gave me years ago 00:31:12.880 --> 00:31:15.779 they didn't find a damn thing they couldn't make 00:31:15.779 --> 00:31:18.880 a case against me and thanks to you Yoshi I'm 00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:23.160 not in jail and well I'll tell you what he fell 00:31:23.160 --> 00:31:26.500 for it hook line and sinker he loved it he loved 00:31:26.500 --> 00:31:28.799 that he because he always valued that role as 00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:33.180 the mentor right and he he loved it and the first 00:31:33.180 --> 00:31:36.380 thing he said to me was Well, are you still selling?" 00:31:36.380 --> 00:31:39.839 And I said, oh yeah, I am. But I have a horrible 00:31:39.839 --> 00:31:41.940 supplier. I just made up some. I said, I have 00:31:41.940 --> 00:31:44.119 a guy out of Germany who's supplying me. He keeps 00:31:44.119 --> 00:31:46.880 sending me butterflies with broken wings and 00:31:46.880 --> 00:31:52.680 no antenna. And Yoshi, he bit and he said, let's 00:31:52.680 --> 00:31:56.660 have lunch. And he took me to lunch that day 00:31:56.660 --> 00:32:01.559 and he outlined his ability to send me whatever 00:32:01.559 --> 00:32:04.470 I wanted basically. And that was the turning 00:32:04.470 --> 00:32:07.589 point in the case. He now believed that I was 00:32:07.589 --> 00:32:09.589 a true criminal because he knew he had turned 00:32:09.589 --> 00:32:12.890 me in. He believed my story when I told him that 00:32:12.890 --> 00:32:14.869 fish and wild fish and wild guys had come to 00:32:14.869 --> 00:32:16.769 see me because that's what that's what happened 00:32:16.769 --> 00:32:18.849 to him back when John Mendoza was looking at 00:32:18.849 --> 00:32:25.329 him. And now we were pals and he we made a list 00:32:25.329 --> 00:32:27.329 right there at the table at this restaurant we 00:32:27.329 --> 00:32:31.309 went to of the various butterflies I was interested 00:32:31.309 --> 00:32:35.009 in. what he could sell them to me for. And he 00:32:35.009 --> 00:32:36.349 said, okay, I'll tell you what, I'm going to 00:32:36.349 --> 00:32:40.569 go back to Japan. Uh, this was mid 2000. So Skype 00:32:40.569 --> 00:32:43.690 was fairly new as a, as a web communication tool. 00:32:44.190 --> 00:32:46.730 He said, let's get on Skype. I can show you what 00:32:46.730 --> 00:32:49.250 I've got in Japan and you tell me if you want 00:32:49.250 --> 00:32:52.430 it and I'll send it to you. So here, here I walk 00:32:52.430 --> 00:32:56.210 away from this, uh, you know, reinvigorated relationship 00:32:56.210 --> 00:32:59.190 and Yoshi's telling me he's going to be in his 00:32:59.190 --> 00:33:02.269 home in Japan. He's going to show me. protected 00:33:02.269 --> 00:33:05.589 butterflies on a camera that I can record and 00:33:05.589 --> 00:33:08.109 he's gonna tell me here's how I'm gonna smuggle 00:33:08.109 --> 00:33:10.250 it into the United States here's how much you're 00:33:10.250 --> 00:33:13.730 gonna pay for it I mean if this happens I make 00:33:13.730 --> 00:33:17.369 my case right he gave you every element you need 00:33:17.369 --> 00:33:20.869 exactly I mean if this was if this worked this 00:33:20.869 --> 00:33:24.230 was going to sink him right this was something 00:33:24.230 --> 00:33:28.170 that was really pretty Pretty amazing and we 00:33:28.170 --> 00:33:30.130 were all pretty stoked about it at the office 00:33:30.130 --> 00:33:33.089 when this unfolded And that's exactly what happened. 00:33:33.109 --> 00:33:37.309 He went back to Japan and for the next few months 00:33:37.309 --> 00:33:40.609 just about every night because you know, he lived 00:33:40.609 --> 00:33:44.809 in Kyoto Japan and So his he was about what 12 00:33:44.809 --> 00:33:47.369 hours 10 hours something like that ahead of Los 00:33:47.369 --> 00:33:50.349 Angeles So he would want to talk during his daytime 00:33:50.349 --> 00:33:53.720 my nighttime. So between like 10 p .m. and 2 00:33:53.720 --> 00:33:55.980 a .m. I'd be on a Skype call just about every 00:33:55.980 --> 00:33:59.440 night with Kojima and this guy did exactly what 00:33:59.440 --> 00:34:02.539 I just outlined. He let me give you an example. 00:34:02.819 --> 00:34:06.859 One time he offered to sell me what are known 00:34:06.859 --> 00:34:10.059 as Papilio hospiton butterflies which are they're 00:34:10.059 --> 00:34:14.119 only found in Corsica and they're very endangered. 00:34:14.340 --> 00:34:16.079 They're on the U .S. endangered species list 00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:19.230 and he offered to send me two pairs male and 00:34:19.230 --> 00:34:22.510 female pairs so I'd get four butterflies and 00:34:22.510 --> 00:34:28.090 on a Skype call he in very a very detailed explanation 00:34:28.090 --> 00:34:30.889 he explained to me okay it's going to cost you 00:34:30.889 --> 00:34:33.050 you know whatever it was two or three thousand 00:34:33.050 --> 00:34:37.429 dollars for these and I'm going to smuggle them 00:34:37.429 --> 00:34:39.730 in a way I can't even use those words I'm going 00:34:39.730 --> 00:34:42.269 to smuggle them in a package along with this 00:34:42.269 --> 00:34:45.010 other species that looks a lot like them and 00:34:45.010 --> 00:34:47.920 I'm gonna basically declare them as this unprotected 00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:50.840 species that's very similar looking and by the 00:34:50.840 --> 00:34:54.980 way if you see a female mark on one if a female 00:34:54.980 --> 00:34:57.260 mark with the number one next to it that's going 00:34:57.260 --> 00:35:02.079 to be a male hospiton it was a complicated uh 00:35:02.079 --> 00:35:03.860 smuggling scheme but he outlined it for me on 00:35:03.860 --> 00:35:06.860 the skype call which i recorded and then those 00:35:06.860 --> 00:35:09.500 butterflies arrived and that was one count of 00:35:09.500 --> 00:35:13.460 smuggling that was iron clad against yoshi kojima 00:35:13.460 --> 00:35:16.360 and that went on for months during the during 00:35:16.360 --> 00:35:18.219 the months that we had these Skype calls, he 00:35:18.219 --> 00:35:21.440 offered to sell me butterflies valued at more 00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:23.239 than three hundred thousand dollars. Now, of 00:35:23.239 --> 00:35:25.340 course, I didn't have that kind of undercover 00:35:25.340 --> 00:35:28.079 money to spend. I had about thirty thousand, 00:35:28.219 --> 00:35:30.539 which even my bosses didn't want me to spend 00:35:30.539 --> 00:35:33.800 that. I ended up spending about eighteen thousand 00:35:33.800 --> 00:35:35.840 dollars, but I was very careful what I bought 00:35:35.840 --> 00:35:38.860 from him and I bought butterflies that were, 00:35:38.860 --> 00:35:41.460 you know, protected from different parts of the 00:35:41.460 --> 00:35:44.480 world that would show his scope. and his reach 00:35:44.480 --> 00:35:48.960 and the severity of you know what he was doing 00:35:48.960 --> 00:35:53.300 and after we made a plan okay after you get this 00:35:53.300 --> 00:35:55.920 many and these particular species we're going 00:35:55.920 --> 00:36:00.900 to indict him and uh we did that we uh after 00:36:00.900 --> 00:36:03.420 about three four months i was able to go to a 00:36:03.420 --> 00:36:05.539 grand jury present the case to a us attorney 00:36:05.539 --> 00:36:07.760 we took a coup to a grand jury in federal court 00:36:08.250 --> 00:36:11.650 and they indicted Kojima on 17 counts of trafficking 00:36:11.650 --> 00:36:18.070 in endangered species. You know here's another 00:36:18.070 --> 00:36:21.769 crazy side story about this. One time I asked 00:36:21.769 --> 00:36:24.230 him just I didn't actually expect him to be able 00:36:24.230 --> 00:36:26.170 to supply me with some of the most endangered 00:36:26.170 --> 00:36:29.789 stuff. Now one time I asked him I said hey I 00:36:29.789 --> 00:36:32.969 do have a customer that's interested in the Ornithoptera 00:36:32.969 --> 00:36:35.510 alexandria this big the biggest butterfly in 00:36:35.510 --> 00:36:38.349 the world. that museums and universities can't 00:36:38.349 --> 00:36:41.469 get and I said do you think you could get one 00:36:41.469 --> 00:36:43.389 of those and he said ah it'll take me a couple 00:36:43.389 --> 00:36:46.730 of weeks but yeah I can do it sure as heck I 00:36:46.730 --> 00:36:50.110 paid him for it and a few weeks later he smuggled 00:36:50.110 --> 00:36:52.550 it into the U .S. for me using international 00:36:52.550 --> 00:36:57.510 mail and but now of course Cheryl we got a problem 00:36:57.510 --> 00:37:02.320 he uh he's in Japan right that's right so we 00:37:02.320 --> 00:37:04.659 got an arrest warrant for him we've got a 17 00:37:04.659 --> 00:37:06.960 count federal indictment but now we got to get 00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:08.719 our hands on him so there's two ways we can do 00:37:08.719 --> 00:37:13.880 that we can extradite him which is a very length 00:37:13.880 --> 00:37:17.079 long long process very difficult very labor intensive 00:37:17.079 --> 00:37:20.440 or we know he comes to the state so in my mind 00:37:20.440 --> 00:37:23.159 i thought well if he comes here on his own volition 00:37:23.159 --> 00:37:24.980 we can just hook him up when he arrives at the 00:37:24.980 --> 00:37:27.820 airport so i thought well there's got to be a 00:37:27.820 --> 00:37:30.789 way to get him here and at one way presented 00:37:30.789 --> 00:37:35.590 itself very early in this relationship. So at 00:37:35.590 --> 00:37:37.710 the beginning, in the first year and a half or 00:37:37.710 --> 00:37:40.590 so, Kojima was just, he was friendly with me. 00:37:40.610 --> 00:37:42.630 It was a little standoffish. He was very paranoid. 00:37:43.030 --> 00:37:45.929 Like he used to sometimes in the middle of a 00:37:45.929 --> 00:37:47.429 conversation, he'd be like, so how long have 00:37:47.429 --> 00:37:49.409 you been with the fish and wildlife service? 00:37:49.409 --> 00:37:52.829 You know, just trying to trip me up at one time 00:37:52.829 --> 00:37:55.849 after we met for coffee, he very carefully examined 00:37:55.849 --> 00:37:58.519 my vehicle. You know, he's looking in the grill, 00:37:58.719 --> 00:38:00.440 looking at the license plate, peering in the 00:38:00.440 --> 00:38:01.840 windows. And I was like, Yoshi, what are you 00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:04.219 doing? And he saw I'm looking for the, uh, you 00:38:04.219 --> 00:38:06.219 know, police lights in the grill of your car, 00:38:06.480 --> 00:38:08.179 make sure you, and I'm like, come on, Yoshi. 00:38:08.460 --> 00:38:10.400 I don't even know what fish and wildlife is. 00:38:11.119 --> 00:38:13.300 And, um, so at the beginning he was paranoid, 00:38:13.539 --> 00:38:16.039 but at the end, he was very friendly with me. 00:38:16.099 --> 00:38:20.460 And I realized he had, I think Kojima was probably 00:38:20.460 --> 00:38:24.099 bisexual and he, he had developed some type of 00:38:24.099 --> 00:38:27.269 serious attraction to me. And it might've had 00:38:27.269 --> 00:38:28.809 something to do with the fact that I had grown 00:38:28.809 --> 00:38:31.570 this huge biker mustache for the other undercover 00:38:31.570 --> 00:38:39.630 case. That's what you got. That's right. So he, 00:38:39.630 --> 00:38:41.809 it was awkward because he would sometimes make 00:38:41.809 --> 00:38:44.989 very suggestive statements to me on these recorded 00:38:44.989 --> 00:38:46.929 Skype calls, you know, like wanting me to take 00:38:46.929 --> 00:38:49.130 my shirt off and you can't do that. You're an 00:38:49.130 --> 00:38:51.829 undercover agent. You cannot, can't take your 00:38:51.829 --> 00:38:53.860 shirt off for a suspect. You can't. You just 00:38:53.860 --> 00:38:55.980 can't engage in that kind of thing. So I had 00:38:55.980 --> 00:38:58.500 to very carefully play it off, you know, without 00:38:58.500 --> 00:39:01.480 offending him. Cause remember he's like a junior 00:39:01.480 --> 00:39:03.079 high school boyfriend or girlfriend. He might 00:39:03.079 --> 00:39:06.099 stop talking to me if I offended. So I kept playing 00:39:06.099 --> 00:39:08.300 him off, but at the end, when we had this arrest 00:39:08.300 --> 00:39:10.719 warrant, I realized, okay, this is it. I gotta, 00:39:11.179 --> 00:39:14.679 I gotta play curious here. And the next time 00:39:14.679 --> 00:39:17.179 he started to make suggestive comments to me, 00:39:17.219 --> 00:39:19.440 I played it off. Like, you know, you're wearing 00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:22.760 me down Yoshi. You're such a great guy. I'm curious. 00:39:23.070 --> 00:39:25.170 I'll tell you what, next time you come to LA, 00:39:25.429 --> 00:39:29.050 we'll go on a date. And don't you know, 48 hours 00:39:29.050 --> 00:39:31.829 later, this guy booked a flight to Los Angeles. 00:39:32.269 --> 00:39:36.889 Wow. Yeah, he arrived in LA and it was like straight 00:39:36.889 --> 00:39:38.630 out of the movies. He was taken into custody 00:39:38.630 --> 00:39:40.869 without incident. We arrested him at the airport 00:39:40.869 --> 00:39:44.989 and we had him. Unbelievable. And I want to tell 00:39:44.989 --> 00:39:46.550 you something else. Here's another little piece 00:39:46.550 --> 00:39:49.769 of advice. And I hope that the young investigators 00:39:49.769 --> 00:39:52.599 are listening. because you said something really 00:39:52.599 --> 00:39:55.219 important in the beginning. You wanted the tiger 00:39:55.219 --> 00:39:58.179 case. You want the polar bear case. You're given 00:39:58.179 --> 00:40:02.480 a butterfly case. But you didn't just half work 00:40:02.480 --> 00:40:05.320 it and when we're given the opportunity to close 00:40:05.320 --> 00:40:08.519 it, took it. You did not. You stayed with that 00:40:08.519 --> 00:40:12.960 case and the work that you were able to do. I 00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:15.260 mean, that's what legends are made of. That's 00:40:15.260 --> 00:40:17.900 why the U .S. attorney keeps giving you awards, 00:40:18.280 --> 00:40:20.860 because what you're able to do, I mean, you worked 00:40:20.860 --> 00:40:24.480 that thing like it was heroin. Yeah. And honestly, 00:40:24.699 --> 00:40:27.119 that was my very first law enforcement award 00:40:27.119 --> 00:40:28.940 from the U .S. attorney's office was for the 00:40:28.940 --> 00:40:32.619 work I did on the Kojima case. And it did open 00:40:32.619 --> 00:40:35.599 my eyes to the importance of all the other species. 00:40:36.710 --> 00:40:40.190 You know, yeah, working on a tiger cub smuggling 00:40:40.190 --> 00:40:43.349 case is sexy and fun and gets a lot of media 00:40:43.349 --> 00:40:46.789 attention. Protecting wolves, grizzly bears is 00:40:46.789 --> 00:40:51.170 important and fun. Uh, but you know, there's 00:40:51.170 --> 00:40:55.630 a lot of animals and wildlife and nature out 00:40:55.630 --> 00:40:57.590 there that has no voice and nobody's sticking 00:40:57.590 --> 00:41:01.269 up for it. And, um, yeah, it kind of opened my 00:41:01.269 --> 00:41:03.530 eyes to the scope of our job and the importance 00:41:03.530 --> 00:41:07.349 of our job and, and, uh, Yeah, you know, I don't 00:41:07.349 --> 00:41:09.449 like criminals. I wasn't going to let Yoshiko 00:41:09.449 --> 00:41:12.389 Jima get away. And I really didn't like the fact 00:41:12.389 --> 00:41:14.230 that he thought he had outsmarted one of our 00:41:14.230 --> 00:41:16.949 agents. So that was another thing. That's good 00:41:16.949 --> 00:41:19.809 all day. Yeah, the agency pride goes a long way, 00:41:19.849 --> 00:41:22.889 right? Amen. That goes a long way. And that's 00:41:22.889 --> 00:41:25.369 good for everybody. And one thing, too, I want 00:41:25.369 --> 00:41:28.010 to mention, y 'all, when you're talking about 00:41:28.010 --> 00:41:31.190 these organized criminals, human trafficking 00:41:31.190 --> 00:41:33.869 plays a role, too. So when you're talking about 00:41:33.869 --> 00:41:37.130 a butterfly or a tiger or a black bear you can 00:41:37.130 --> 00:41:39.690 again exchange that for a five -year -old boy 00:41:39.690 --> 00:41:44.130 17 year old girl 36 year old woman They can get 00:41:44.130 --> 00:41:49.090 people using the same routes that these smugglers 00:41:49.090 --> 00:41:52.909 use Absolutely. Yeah investigation is investigation 00:41:52.909 --> 00:41:55.989 and crime is crime This isn't directly what you're 00:41:55.989 --> 00:41:58.690 referring to but you know a lot of times once 00:41:58.690 --> 00:42:01.650 a smuggler has the systems and the roots in place 00:42:01.900 --> 00:42:04.300 They will engage in other types of crimes. You 00:42:04.300 --> 00:42:06.260 know, if you can smuggle butterflies into the 00:42:06.260 --> 00:42:08.340 U .S., you can also smuggle drugs or you can 00:42:08.340 --> 00:42:11.019 smuggle people. That's right. Well, look at pimps. 00:42:11.280 --> 00:42:14.199 Pimps are gonna run women. They're gonna run 00:42:14.199 --> 00:42:17.940 drugs. They're gonna run guns. Absolutely. It's 00:42:17.940 --> 00:42:21.179 an opportunity. And you know, after you had your 00:42:21.179 --> 00:42:24.300 butterfly case, you know, you moved right into 00:42:24.300 --> 00:42:26.940 the fish smuggling. And here's what's so funny. 00:42:27.079 --> 00:42:29.980 I have a buddy that works for Black River Caviar. 00:42:30.440 --> 00:42:32.440 and we were having a conversation because she 00:42:32.440 --> 00:42:36.619 had somebody sort of famous say to her they prefer 00:42:36.619 --> 00:42:39.679 wild caviar and she said well if you've ever 00:42:39.679 --> 00:42:42.500 had wild caviar you've had black market caviar 00:42:42.500 --> 00:42:46.039 absolutely you know you're not supposed to have 00:42:46.039 --> 00:42:48.760 caviar that didn't come from a farm because sturgeon 00:42:48.760 --> 00:42:52.159 are endangered many species of them are yeah 00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:54.539 some of them critically well tell us about your 00:42:54.539 --> 00:42:57.219 fish case Oh my gosh. You know, here I'm still 00:42:57.219 --> 00:43:00.599 waiting for my tiger case, right? Right. But 00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:06.679 yeah, not long after the Kojima case, I picked 00:43:06.679 --> 00:43:09.059 up this interesting fish case. And then this 00:43:09.059 --> 00:43:10.900 is going to require a little bit of explanation 00:43:10.900 --> 00:43:16.860 about the law. But I think given some of your 00:43:16.860 --> 00:43:19.860 points about, you know, maybe some of the lessons 00:43:19.860 --> 00:43:22.059 we can all learn from different investigators' 00:43:22.460 --> 00:43:27.719 experiences. These fish cases can be really complicated 00:43:27.719 --> 00:43:31.079 and very, very lucrative for the people involved. 00:43:31.539 --> 00:43:34.780 There's a fish known as the Asian arowana. It's 00:43:34.780 --> 00:43:40.400 not the marijuana. It's the arowana. It's an 00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:44.079 interesting fish. It's found throughout Asia, 00:43:44.480 --> 00:43:48.559 Southeast Asia, Indonesia, South Asia. And it 00:43:48.559 --> 00:43:51.440 is a predatory fish that can get pretty big, 00:43:51.619 --> 00:43:55.139 maybe like to two and a half feet at when it's 00:43:55.139 --> 00:43:59.760 a mature adult they have an upturned mouth which 00:43:59.760 --> 00:44:02.840 is really interesting and they're what are called 00:44:02.840 --> 00:44:06.340 mouth brewers so when they when their eggs hatch 00:44:06.340 --> 00:44:09.679 all of the baby fish will hang around mama because 00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:15.800 mama's uh tough you know so be and uh She will 00:44:15.800 --> 00:44:18.820 defend her clutch of fish, a baby fish. And if 00:44:18.820 --> 00:44:20.639 there's a threat, they all run into her. She'll 00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:22.699 open her mouth, and they all swim into her mouth. 00:44:23.099 --> 00:44:25.679 And she kind of hides them in her mouth. And 00:44:25.679 --> 00:44:28.199 that's what they call mouth breeders is the ones 00:44:28.199 --> 00:44:30.960 that they're very interesting fish, but they're 00:44:30.960 --> 00:44:33.460 aggressive. They'll protect their territory. 00:44:33.739 --> 00:44:35.880 And that becomes important later in this story. 00:44:36.679 --> 00:44:40.619 So the way the law is for Asian arowana, under 00:44:40.619 --> 00:44:43.159 the US Endangered Species Act, they are listed 00:44:43.159 --> 00:44:47.019 as endangered. But under the Convention on International 00:44:47.019 --> 00:44:49.420 Trade in Endangered Species, which is the international 00:44:49.420 --> 00:44:52.420 treaty regarding the movement of wild animals, 00:44:52.820 --> 00:44:57.079 they have dual protection. If they're wild, they're 00:44:57.079 --> 00:44:59.199 listed as appendix one, which means they cannot 00:44:59.199 --> 00:45:03.280 be traded in the trade. If they're raved in captivity, 00:45:04.159 --> 00:45:06.260 they're listed as what's called appendix two, 00:45:06.280 --> 00:45:09.320 which means they can be sold internationally 00:45:09.320 --> 00:45:12.440 and shipped internationally if they have a CITES 00:45:12.440 --> 00:45:15.400 export permit from the country of origin and 00:45:15.400 --> 00:45:17.460 most of them most of them come out of Indonesia. 00:45:17.840 --> 00:45:20.960 Now the reason this is important is because anytime 00:45:20.960 --> 00:45:24.579 you have a scheme like that a legal scheme like 00:45:24.579 --> 00:45:28.519 that it creates an opportunity to launder fish. 00:45:29.340 --> 00:45:32.539 So all you have to do is catch your wild fish 00:45:32.539 --> 00:45:34.920 and make it look like it was raised in captivity 00:45:34.920 --> 00:45:37.360 and bing bang boom you get your permit and it 00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:41.989 appears to be legal and During this next investigation 00:45:41.989 --> 00:45:45.369 I'm going to talk about, I was able to uncover 00:45:45.369 --> 00:45:49.429 really the insidious side of the Asian Arowana 00:45:49.429 --> 00:45:52.670 trade. There is a lot of laundering of these 00:45:52.670 --> 00:45:56.809 fish going on. They're a really cool fish. They're 00:45:56.809 --> 00:45:59.730 unusual. And the fact that they're being depleted 00:45:59.730 --> 00:46:02.489 from the wild under the guise of having been 00:46:02.489 --> 00:46:05.989 captive raised is really like, it's sinister. 00:46:06.110 --> 00:46:08.650 It's almost sinister, right? And it really shows. 00:46:09.070 --> 00:46:13.090 that the people involved are greedy they're interested 00:46:13.090 --> 00:46:15.789 in money they don't care about even their own 00:46:15.789 --> 00:46:20.309 environment which to me is just repulsive so 00:46:20.309 --> 00:46:23.510 these fish go for about five grand yeah depending 00:46:23.510 --> 00:46:26.610 on size now normally to ship them you know and 00:46:26.610 --> 00:46:28.190 have them live they're going to have to be fairly 00:46:28.190 --> 00:46:31.010 small because to smuggle them you have to have 00:46:31.010 --> 00:46:33.389 these now that unlike the butterflies these fish 00:46:33.389 --> 00:46:36.070 are only valuable if they're alive and the the 00:46:36.070 --> 00:46:38.619 reason they're so valuable is There's many cultures 00:46:38.619 --> 00:46:40.679 in the world that believe that Asian arowanas 00:46:40.679 --> 00:46:43.780 bring good luck and they come in these crazy 00:46:43.780 --> 00:46:45.719 color patterns like there might be one that looks 00:46:45.719 --> 00:46:48.659 like a gold bar and then another one will be 00:46:48.659 --> 00:46:51.679 like bright red. It's all the same species it's 00:46:51.679 --> 00:46:54.880 just like different morphs. So you could have 00:46:54.880 --> 00:46:58.039 a small fish that's maybe four or five inches 00:46:58.039 --> 00:47:01.139 in length that would sell between fifteen hundred 00:47:01.139 --> 00:47:03.500 and five thousand dollars from the initial sale 00:47:03.500 --> 00:47:05.980 from the provider. If the fish starts to get 00:47:05.980 --> 00:47:10.019 bigger and that's maybe 12 to 20 inches, it could 00:47:10.019 --> 00:47:15.800 easily go for $10 ,000 or more. During my investigation 00:47:15.800 --> 00:47:17.820 of this Asian Arowana case we're going to talk 00:47:17.820 --> 00:47:22.360 about, which I called Operation RTG, there was 00:47:22.360 --> 00:47:25.079 a report of one fish being sold for $30 ,000, 00:47:25.139 --> 00:47:29.300 just one live fish. As you can imagine, that 00:47:29.300 --> 00:47:32.900 kind of money will draw criminal enterprises 00:47:32.900 --> 00:47:36.579 right to it. I called this case RTG because one 00:47:36.579 --> 00:47:38.760 of the codes that's often used in the criminal 00:47:38.760 --> 00:47:42.920 networks for an Asian Arowana is RTG, and that 00:47:42.920 --> 00:47:45.880 stands for Red Tail Golden. And it's a particular 00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:49.480 morph of Asian Arowana. They also sometimes use 00:47:49.480 --> 00:47:52.460 a code name like Dragonfish, or they might use 00:47:52.460 --> 00:47:57.039 SR, which stands for Super Red. But the way this 00:47:57.039 --> 00:47:59.539 started for me, and I think this is the lesson 00:47:59.539 --> 00:48:03.769 for younger or up and coming or people, uh, you 00:48:03.769 --> 00:48:05.429 know, investigators or people who want to get 00:48:05.429 --> 00:48:09.429 into law enforcement and do investigations, always 00:48:09.429 --> 00:48:11.869 pay attention to those, like be available to 00:48:11.869 --> 00:48:13.769 talk to the public, pay attention to those phone 00:48:13.769 --> 00:48:16.409 calls that come into the office and don't sit 00:48:16.409 --> 00:48:18.590 around in the office waiting for your supervisor 00:48:18.590 --> 00:48:22.429 to assign a case to you. Um, our saying in Los 00:48:22.429 --> 00:48:25.130 Angeles, you know, like I said, we had, we had 00:48:25.130 --> 00:48:27.510 hard charging agents in Los Angeles. We were 00:48:27.510 --> 00:48:29.929 the one of the busiest field offices in the country. 00:48:30.300 --> 00:48:33.679 If, if an agent was waiting for a supervisor 00:48:33.679 --> 00:48:37.940 to assign a case to them, our, our view as agents 00:48:37.940 --> 00:48:41.940 was, well, that agent is kind of mediocre, right? 00:48:42.099 --> 00:48:43.820 They're not working very hard because you shouldn't, 00:48:43.880 --> 00:48:46.199 you shouldn't have to wait around for your supervisor 00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:48.659 to assign something. If you, if you're networked 00:48:48.659 --> 00:48:51.880 in. So that's how this case came to me. I was 00:48:51.880 --> 00:48:54.380 kind of obsessed with talking to the public and 00:48:54.380 --> 00:48:56.239 taking phone calls from the public. And if somebody 00:48:56.239 --> 00:48:58.079 walked in our front door and they wanted to talk 00:48:58.079 --> 00:49:01.269 to an agent. I'd sit down and talk to them. And 00:49:01.269 --> 00:49:05.170 one of the things that came up for me was I used 00:49:05.170 --> 00:49:08.889 to skulk around, for lack of a better word, I 00:49:08.889 --> 00:49:11.630 used to snoop around on these various bulletin 00:49:11.630 --> 00:49:16.449 boards and chat rooms on websites that attracted 00:49:16.449 --> 00:49:20.289 people who were into really exotic fish. And 00:49:20.289 --> 00:49:22.650 one of those places is called aquaticpredators 00:49:22.650 --> 00:49:25.269 .com. I don't know if they're still around, but 00:49:25.269 --> 00:49:28.210 they were in the mid -2000s. So I used to just 00:49:28.210 --> 00:49:29.969 routinely, if I had nothing else going on, I 00:49:29.969 --> 00:49:32.610 had an undercover email account and I would log 00:49:32.610 --> 00:49:35.670 into aquaticpredators .com and I'd just start 00:49:35.670 --> 00:49:37.349 snooping around in the bulletin boards and see 00:49:37.349 --> 00:49:40.289 what people were talking about. And one day I 00:49:40.289 --> 00:49:43.829 come across this posting by a guy named Andre 00:49:43.829 --> 00:49:48.050 Ramza and he's just basically making this very 00:49:48.050 --> 00:49:51.690 nonchalant inquiry about whether or not anyone 00:49:51.690 --> 00:49:55.829 in the U .S. knows how to get RTGs into the US. 00:49:56.769 --> 00:50:00.309 And I immediately recognized that RTG was a code 00:50:00.309 --> 00:50:04.610 name for Asian Arowana. And my thinking was, 00:50:04.750 --> 00:50:07.610 I need to reach out to this guy because I don't 00:50:07.610 --> 00:50:09.349 know how many thousands of people are seeing 00:50:09.349 --> 00:50:12.389 this post, right? So I'm going to try to intercept 00:50:12.389 --> 00:50:14.429 this. I'm going to try to be the guy this guy's 00:50:14.429 --> 00:50:16.889 talking to rather than somebody else in the US 00:50:16.889 --> 00:50:20.510 who might actually be a smuggler. So I reached 00:50:20.510 --> 00:50:23.829 out to him. Um, and I find out basically in a, 00:50:23.829 --> 00:50:26.530 in a short while, few, few exchanges that he's 00:50:26.530 --> 00:50:28.650 based out of Indonesia, which is one of the places 00:50:28.650 --> 00:50:33.750 Asian Arawanas are found. And he tells me he's 00:50:33.750 --> 00:50:36.989 got a friend in San Diego and he wants to send 00:50:36.989 --> 00:50:40.210 him to Asian Arawanas, but he knows it's illegal 00:50:40.210 --> 00:50:42.690 and he's not sure how to do it. So he's passing 00:50:42.690 --> 00:50:44.849 it off like he's not selling it. He's just sending 00:50:44.849 --> 00:50:51.260 it as a gift to a friend. And I said, now. Interesting, 00:50:51.260 --> 00:50:54.260 Cheryl. Some of your listeners might say, hey, 00:50:54.380 --> 00:50:58.820 isn't a newcomer about to entrap this guy? They 00:50:58.820 --> 00:51:03.079 will. And so maybe it's worthwhile to just give 00:51:03.079 --> 00:51:06.400 a two second primer on what entrapment is. And 00:51:06.400 --> 00:51:09.940 for your listeners, if they don't know, entrapment 00:51:09.940 --> 00:51:12.820 means that law enforcement basically creates 00:51:12.820 --> 00:51:15.800 the opportunity and gives the person the idea 00:51:15.800 --> 00:51:18.460 to commit the crime. when they wouldn't have 00:51:18.460 --> 00:51:20.840 had the idea on their own or the opportunity 00:51:20.840 --> 00:51:24.579 on their own. And basically all you need to do 00:51:24.579 --> 00:51:27.559 as a law enforcement officer to get past a defense 00:51:27.559 --> 00:51:31.840 of entrapment is provide what the law or the 00:51:31.840 --> 00:51:35.039 courts refer to as a scintilla of evidence that 00:51:35.039 --> 00:51:38.599 they were predisposed. and a scintilla is not 00:51:38.599 --> 00:51:41.059 defined in the law but we all know a scintilla 00:51:41.059 --> 00:51:45.079 is very little it ain't much it ain't much those 00:51:45.079 --> 00:51:47.800 are exact words i was about to use it ain't much 00:51:47.800 --> 00:51:53.460 and so you know already this andre ramsa guy 00:51:53.460 --> 00:51:56.760 has already presented to me predisposition. He's 00:51:56.760 --> 00:52:00.059 told me he wants to send RTGs to the U .S. and 00:52:00.059 --> 00:52:03.059 he's having trouble because it's illegal. So 00:52:03.059 --> 00:52:05.380 it's already this until it's there, but there's 00:52:05.380 --> 00:52:07.480 a few more things I can do to kind of shore that 00:52:07.480 --> 00:52:10.159 up as we go along. But basically, I told him, 00:52:10.159 --> 00:52:12.440 hey, I'm having the same problem. It's hard to 00:52:12.440 --> 00:52:15.159 get things past customs, but I have an idea and 00:52:15.159 --> 00:52:18.659 that's all I said. And then I let him make the 00:52:18.659 --> 00:52:21.300 next step. And he did. He wanted to know what 00:52:21.300 --> 00:52:24.599 my idea was. And I thought, well, I'm going to 00:52:24.599 --> 00:52:27.420 see what he's up to. So I basically presented 00:52:27.420 --> 00:52:30.039 a scenario to him that I had a friend who worked 00:52:30.039 --> 00:52:33.039 for US Customs who could help me get things through 00:52:33.039 --> 00:52:37.219 unnoticed. And this is a guy in Indonesia, a 00:52:37.219 --> 00:52:39.219 country where I know there's a lot of corruption. 00:52:39.500 --> 00:52:42.900 So it would not be unusual for him to believe 00:52:42.900 --> 00:52:46.440 that story. I mean, as far as in his world, corruption 00:52:46.440 --> 00:52:50.880 is common. So he bit. And he immediately started 00:52:50.880 --> 00:52:53.019 talking to me about my plan and how he would 00:52:53.019 --> 00:52:57.900 do it. And this quickly morphed into, I actually 00:52:57.900 --> 00:53:00.639 made some notes in preparation of our, of our, 00:53:00.639 --> 00:53:03.820 uh, you know, recording today. And he, I realized 00:53:03.820 --> 00:53:06.960 that my first contact with him was on May 3rd, 00:53:06.960 --> 00:53:09.579 between May 6th and May 8th. He started to introduce 00:53:09.579 --> 00:53:13.800 me to not just a friend in San Diego, but, uh, 00:53:13.880 --> 00:53:17.159 17 customers in the United States. He had kind 00:53:17.159 --> 00:53:20.280 of, you know, fostered. who were very interested 00:53:20.280 --> 00:53:24.039 in purchasing Asian Arowana fish from him. Yeah. 00:53:24.300 --> 00:53:26.559 So this was not a guy who was sending fish as 00:53:26.559 --> 00:53:28.599 gifts. This was a guy who was engaged in the 00:53:28.599 --> 00:53:34.300 business of selling Asian Arowana. So we knew 00:53:34.300 --> 00:53:38.500 we had a case. And what I did was I basically 00:53:38.500 --> 00:53:42.659 explained this plan not only to him, but also 00:53:42.659 --> 00:53:44.519 to all of his customers because they started 00:53:44.519 --> 00:53:47.039 to call my undercover cell phone and ask me. 00:53:47.320 --> 00:53:50.460 How are you going to do this? And what I was 00:53:50.460 --> 00:53:52.639 very careful to do with every single customer 00:53:52.639 --> 00:53:55.420 that called me or potential customer, I said, 00:53:55.579 --> 00:53:58.179 hey, I said, you're not a cop, are you? Because 00:53:58.179 --> 00:54:01.280 this is illegal, right? And I would basically 00:54:01.280 --> 00:54:05.079 get them to tell me what the law was. And every 00:54:05.079 --> 00:54:07.599 single person I talked to who was a potential 00:54:07.599 --> 00:54:11.480 customer of Andre. was very aware of the Endangered 00:54:11.480 --> 00:54:13.900 Species Act, very aware that Asian arowanas were 00:54:13.900 --> 00:54:16.059 not legal to import into the United States, even 00:54:16.059 --> 00:54:20.460 if captive bred. And they wanted them. And these 00:54:20.460 --> 00:54:23.179 guys were talking about paying between $500 and 00:54:23.179 --> 00:54:25.639 3 ,000 fish, depending on the size they were 00:54:25.639 --> 00:54:27.719 getting. And they wanted reassurance from me 00:54:27.719 --> 00:54:30.079 that I could get the fish in illegally without 00:54:30.079 --> 00:54:37.150 getting caught. This case really unfolded quickly. 00:54:37.309 --> 00:54:41.050 Like I said, by early May, I had been in contact 00:54:41.050 --> 00:54:44.489 with 17 people who wanted this to happen. And 00:54:44.489 --> 00:54:49.630 by June 22nd, Andre's basically making plans 00:54:49.630 --> 00:54:52.550 to send the first two fish as a test, because 00:54:52.550 --> 00:54:56.789 he wanted to see if his scheme would work. So 00:54:56.789 --> 00:54:59.409 I worked with US Customs and Homeland Security 00:54:59.409 --> 00:55:05.219 as well, investigations. Andre sent the shipment. 00:55:05.360 --> 00:55:07.800 And by this time, the US Fish and Wildlife Service 00:55:07.800 --> 00:55:09.780 has an intelligence unit. And they were able 00:55:09.780 --> 00:55:13.019 to decipher that Andre's last name was actually 00:55:13.019 --> 00:55:16.039 Gunawan rather than Ramza. So he was using a 00:55:16.039 --> 00:55:18.960 fake name. So we identified him as a guy named 00:55:18.960 --> 00:55:24.659 Andre Gunawan out of Bogor, Indonesia. And he 00:55:24.659 --> 00:55:26.800 decided he was going to send two fish first as 00:55:26.800 --> 00:55:32.099 a test. He did. He sent them to Ted Nelson again 00:55:32.099 --> 00:55:35.039 was my undercover name. I received those fish 00:55:35.039 --> 00:55:39.619 at LAX through Korea Air and took pictures and 00:55:39.619 --> 00:55:41.800 emailed back said hey your fish arrived everything's 00:55:41.800 --> 00:55:44.960 good. We knew that he wanted to ship more so 00:55:44.960 --> 00:55:47.280 we wanted to we didn't want to take the case 00:55:47.280 --> 00:55:49.820 down yet so we actually delivered those two fish 00:55:49.820 --> 00:55:53.099 to his first two customers. In one instance me 00:55:53.099 --> 00:55:57.219 and another agent drove to San Diego and personally 00:55:57.219 --> 00:56:00.670 delivered the fish. to a guy named Sam in San 00:56:00.670 --> 00:56:04.389 Diego and during that meeting Sam like literally 00:56:04.389 --> 00:56:07.789 I think the quote in one of my reports was whew 00:56:07.789 --> 00:56:10.590 I'm so glad you're not a federal agent because 00:56:10.590 --> 00:56:12.590 I wasn't sure we were going to get these fish 00:56:12.590 --> 00:56:18.110 and then he goes on to explain the law to me 00:56:18.110 --> 00:56:20.869 and I was like you know the whole thing's recorded 00:56:20.869 --> 00:56:22.650 it doesn't get better than that when the bad 00:56:22.650 --> 00:56:25.070 guy's telling you what the law is oh that's fantastic 00:56:25.070 --> 00:56:29.190 yeah it was fun The other fish we shipped to 00:56:29.190 --> 00:56:32.610 a guy in uh and and this guy actually becomes 00:56:32.610 --> 00:56:35.190 important later in this story but we shipped 00:56:35.190 --> 00:56:38.449 the other fish via FedEx to another guy in Kentucky 00:56:38.449 --> 00:56:41.590 and we alerted uh this is the great thing about 00:56:41.590 --> 00:56:44.269 being a federal agent US Fish and Wildlife Service 00:56:44.269 --> 00:56:47.429 we have agents all over the country right so 00:56:47.429 --> 00:56:49.750 I alerted the agents in Kentucky we actually 00:56:49.750 --> 00:56:52.010 had agents doing surveillance on the house who 00:56:52.010 --> 00:56:55.210 observed the FedEx driver deliver this package 00:56:55.210 --> 00:56:59.039 that I had sent. and actually, you know, observed 00:56:59.039 --> 00:57:02.559 our suspect in Kentucky received the package 00:57:02.559 --> 00:57:05.519 at his front door. So we knew in anticipation 00:57:05.519 --> 00:57:07.519 of future search warrants that the fish went 00:57:07.519 --> 00:57:11.519 into that house and that suspect, you know, ex 00:57:11.519 --> 00:57:15.400 a guy named Lee picked up the fish. The great 00:57:15.400 --> 00:57:19.099 news is Ed Andre sends out an email to all these 00:57:19.099 --> 00:57:22.800 17 customers. Success. It worked. Our scheme 00:57:22.800 --> 00:57:26.699 worked. And this This got us past the hump of 00:57:26.699 --> 00:57:29.940 all suspicion. There was a guy with the last 00:57:29.940 --> 00:57:32.940 name Ku in Texas who had been warning people, 00:57:33.239 --> 00:57:35.559 hey, I think this Ted Nelson guy is a US customs 00:57:35.559 --> 00:57:40.380 agent. So he didn't want to order. He was supposed 00:57:40.380 --> 00:57:42.340 to order on that first shipment. And he was like, 00:57:42.340 --> 00:57:45.480 I'm not doing it because I think Ted's a Fed. 00:57:46.199 --> 00:57:49.380 And once the shipment went through, all of a 00:57:49.380 --> 00:57:52.699 sudden Tom Ku was his name. He put his orders 00:57:52.699 --> 00:57:55.130 in because now he was convinced. uh this was 00:57:55.130 --> 00:58:00.510 a legit deal oh yeah well that was kind of a 00:58:00.510 --> 00:58:04.369 coup itself exactly a coup right on the bad guys 00:58:04.369 --> 00:58:09.409 so uh yeah very quickly after that so now we're 00:58:09.409 --> 00:58:14.329 this is into july this is happening by late august 00:58:14.329 --> 00:58:19.000 uh andre gunawan makes arrangements to to send 00:58:19.000 --> 00:58:21.860 12 more fish to the US. So now we kind of have 00:58:21.860 --> 00:58:23.880 a dilemma because these are endangered fish. 00:58:24.019 --> 00:58:26.000 We suspect they're coming from the wild. We don't 00:58:26.000 --> 00:58:31.159 think they're coming from captive breeding facilities. 00:58:32.119 --> 00:58:34.980 And basically, we can't let this go on too long. 00:58:35.019 --> 00:58:37.880 We want to catch the people involved. We don't 00:58:37.880 --> 00:58:39.820 want to just have two people we catch. We want 00:58:39.820 --> 00:58:42.739 to take down Andrea. We want to take down this 00:58:42.739 --> 00:58:45.909 customer base. But we can't let you know the 00:58:45.909 --> 00:58:48.429 endangered fish trade go on because we are it's 00:58:48.429 --> 00:58:52.949 not we are trying to protect these animals so 00:58:52.949 --> 00:58:55.090 we decide okay we're going to do this next shipment 00:58:55.090 --> 00:58:57.809 and now we're going to take everybody down and 00:58:57.809 --> 00:59:00.389 sure enough august end of august rolls around 00:59:00.389 --> 00:59:03.570 and the next shipment of 12 i'm sorry 10 fish 00:59:03.570 --> 00:59:08.829 comes in and uh we arranged to make a personal 00:59:08.829 --> 00:59:11.750 delivery to the people in la and i tell them 00:59:12.010 --> 00:59:14.429 All of the customers in LA need to meet me at 00:59:14.429 --> 00:59:17.050 the Target parking lot in Carson, California. 00:59:18.489 --> 00:59:20.550 And I said, I'm delivering them in person because 00:59:20.550 --> 00:59:22.750 I'm afraid I don't want them to die, blah, blah, 00:59:22.750 --> 00:59:27.730 blah. So sure enough, all of the people that 00:59:27.730 --> 00:59:30.030 lived in the LA area who were customers showed 00:59:30.030 --> 00:59:33.730 up at Target. And we had a massive team of Fish 00:59:33.730 --> 00:59:36.250 and Wildlife Special Agents and Homeland Security. 00:59:36.599 --> 00:59:39.039 special agents stationed around the parking lot. 00:59:39.139 --> 00:59:40.780 We had a surveillance van sitting in the middle 00:59:40.780 --> 00:59:43.519 of the parking lot watching everybody. And I 00:59:43.519 --> 00:59:46.099 met as Ted Nelson at the back of my undercover 00:59:46.099 --> 00:59:49.599 vehicle with these customers. I showed them the 00:59:49.599 --> 00:59:53.159 vish. Everything's recorded. I had them actually 00:59:53.159 --> 00:59:57.800 sign a document saying they'd received it. It 00:59:57.800 --> 01:00:01.139 was beautiful. And then the coup de grace was 01:00:01.139 --> 01:00:04.289 something I didn't expect. We were all everybody 01:00:04.289 --> 01:00:06.349 was so giddy and happy that they were receiving 01:00:06.349 --> 01:00:09.110 these valuable endangered fish. We all agreed 01:00:09.110 --> 01:00:11.190 to pose for a photograph at the back of my vehicle 01:00:11.190 --> 01:00:17.530 together. So I remember later my boss was like, 01:00:17.530 --> 01:00:19.650 I saw you posing for the photo and I was like, 01:00:19.829 --> 01:00:22.789 what in the hell is he doing? But I can tell 01:00:22.789 --> 01:00:27.809 you that exhibit a one. Exactly. And what I really 01:00:27.809 --> 01:00:30.030 wanted was I wanted them to be holding their 01:00:30.030 --> 01:00:32.710 fish in the bag. and I said I said to him I said 01:00:32.710 --> 01:00:34.789 hey why don't you guys hold your fish for the 01:00:34.789 --> 01:00:37.789 photo and on on the mic you know I'm recording 01:00:37.789 --> 01:00:40.909 everything one of the guys says hell no I'm not 01:00:40.909 --> 01:00:43.650 gonna hold an illegal fish while I'm in a photograph 01:00:43.650 --> 01:00:47.429 now that was exhibit me just got better it just 01:00:47.429 --> 01:00:51.289 got better yeah I met that prosecutor I mean 01:00:51.289 --> 01:00:55.170 you want to talk about dancing now I have to 01:00:55.170 --> 01:00:58.030 ask one question about the photo sure sure was 01:00:58.030 --> 01:01:03.730 your shirt owner off Fully clothed. Fully clothed. 01:01:03.789 --> 01:01:05.409 Oh, well, we don't care about that. Move on. 01:01:05.809 --> 01:01:08.349 Yeah, yeah. But I did have the fancy big mustache. 01:01:08.610 --> 01:01:13.650 That helps. Right on. OK. So this is what we 01:01:13.650 --> 01:01:16.030 call a deliver bust in the law enforcement world. 01:01:16.130 --> 01:01:18.809 You're familiar with those, Cheryl. When everything's 01:01:18.809 --> 01:01:23.329 done, I gave the signal and I walked away and 01:01:23.329 --> 01:01:25.409 in come the lights and sirens and the agents 01:01:25.409 --> 01:01:27.789 and their tactical gear and everybody got arrested. 01:01:28.610 --> 01:01:31.070 Now. The funny thing was we made it look like 01:01:31.070 --> 01:01:34.630 I got arrested as well and the thing that really 01:01:34.630 --> 01:01:36.550 cracked me up is later that night I was back 01:01:36.550 --> 01:01:39.750 at the office everybody had been processed and 01:01:39.750 --> 01:01:42.429 I got an email from one of the guys who lived 01:01:42.429 --> 01:01:45.250 outside of LA and the word had gotten out there 01:01:45.250 --> 01:01:47.670 had been an arrest because he sent me an email 01:01:47.670 --> 01:01:51.000 to Ted Nelson. saying he'd reconsidered and he'd 01:01:51.000 --> 01:01:55.940 like to cancel his order. And I didn't even answer 01:01:55.940 --> 01:01:58.139 the email because I was like, too late. You're 01:01:58.139 --> 01:02:02.340 already under indictment, you know? So yeah, 01:02:02.619 --> 01:02:07.099 nice try. As a result of this, we indicted. We 01:02:07.099 --> 01:02:09.440 didn't get all 17 of the customers that were 01:02:09.440 --> 01:02:12.400 originally on the list, but we indicted seven 01:02:12.400 --> 01:02:15.699 people and every single one of them was indicted 01:02:15.699 --> 01:02:18.670 for a felony and every single one of them. Once 01:02:18.670 --> 01:02:21.110 they saw the evidence we had against them between 01:02:21.110 --> 01:02:23.730 email correspondence, recorded undercover phone 01:02:23.730 --> 01:02:26.469 calls, recorded in -person meetings. I forgot 01:02:26.469 --> 01:02:28.409 to mention some of these guys were so paranoid 01:02:28.409 --> 01:02:30.849 about me they wanted to meet beforehand. So we 01:02:30.849 --> 01:02:33.809 had some in -person meetings in LA where I'd 01:02:33.809 --> 01:02:35.630 meet with them with another undercover agent 01:02:35.630 --> 01:02:38.550 posing as my girlfriend or whatever. And I'd 01:02:38.550 --> 01:02:41.030 reassure them, yeah, I'm a regular guy. And they'd 01:02:41.030 --> 01:02:45.340 walk away satisfied. Um, there was no defeating 01:02:45.340 --> 01:02:47.900 the evidence that we had in every single one 01:02:47.900 --> 01:02:49.820 of those seven people, with the exception of 01:02:49.820 --> 01:02:53.739 Gunawan pleaded guilty and they were all sentenced. 01:02:53.940 --> 01:02:56.599 They all have felonies on their record. Uh, they 01:02:56.599 --> 01:02:59.019 had pretty significant fines. They were, they 01:02:59.019 --> 01:03:01.239 weren't sent to jail. They had long probations, 01:03:01.340 --> 01:03:04.280 two to three year probation periods. And we never 01:03:04.280 --> 01:03:07.659 saw them ever engaged in anything like this ever 01:03:07.659 --> 01:03:11.780 again. The fun thing was about this guy, Lee 01:03:11.780 --> 01:03:14.969 in Kentucky. One of the things we wanted to do 01:03:14.969 --> 01:03:17.409 was we wanted to recover those two fish. We'd 01:03:17.409 --> 01:03:21.429 already delivered so we had agents in San Diego 01:03:21.429 --> 01:03:24.070 and Kentucky execute search warrants at those 01:03:24.070 --> 01:03:27.670 houses and Luckily, we were able to recover those 01:03:27.670 --> 01:03:30.170 two fish. They were still at the house but during 01:03:30.170 --> 01:03:32.690 that search warrant in Kentucky the agents interviewed 01:03:32.690 --> 01:03:37.269 the guy named Lee and Lee acted like he was cooperating 01:03:37.269 --> 01:03:40.380 but he lied lied lied he He said he wasn't sure 01:03:40.380 --> 01:03:42.340 who the guy was in LA, which would have been 01:03:42.340 --> 01:03:45.199 Ted Nelson. He gave a different name for Andre 01:03:45.199 --> 01:03:48.639 Gunawan. He basically tried to misdirect our 01:03:48.639 --> 01:03:52.739 agents at all, every opportunity, which is another 01:03:52.739 --> 01:03:55.340 federal crime. You cannot lie to a federal agent. 01:03:55.440 --> 01:03:57.119 You don't have to talk to a federal agent, but 01:03:57.119 --> 01:04:00.360 if you'd say, if you do, as Martha Stewart, Marion 01:04:00.360 --> 01:04:03.719 Jones, and many others have learned, if you do 01:04:03.719 --> 01:04:06.460 talk to a federal agent and you lie, that's a 01:04:06.460 --> 01:04:11.280 felony. So. Later that night, after our agents 01:04:11.280 --> 01:04:13.280 in Kentucky had conducted a search warrant at 01:04:13.280 --> 01:04:15.739 his house and interviewed him, he actually called 01:04:15.739 --> 01:04:18.960 me Ted Nelson on my undercover phone and told 01:04:18.960 --> 01:04:21.900 me, Hey, Ted, watch out the fish and wildlife 01:04:21.900 --> 01:04:24.239 services after you. They were at my house today. 01:04:24.679 --> 01:04:26.380 They did a search warrant. They seized the fish. 01:04:26.619 --> 01:04:29.739 They're coming for you. Don't worry. I lied and 01:04:29.739 --> 01:04:34.099 told them all these stories about different names, 01:04:34.519 --> 01:04:37.190 different information. Yeah. and of course that's 01:04:37.190 --> 01:04:40.789 all that's all recorded too yeah yeah so the 01:04:40.789 --> 01:04:44.210 moral of the story is uh we shut them down we 01:04:44.210 --> 01:04:47.429 shut down on and we stopped something that could 01:04:47.429 --> 01:04:50.989 have if if an agent hadn't seen that original 01:04:50.989 --> 01:04:52.949 post by andre somebody else would have picked 01:04:52.949 --> 01:04:55.230 it up somebody else would have helped him do 01:04:55.230 --> 01:04:56.889 the smuggling scheme and they would have gotten 01:04:56.889 --> 01:05:00.670 away with it and that again is the lesson because 01:05:00.670 --> 01:05:03.269 if they can get a fish into this country they 01:05:03.269 --> 01:05:06.329 can get a weapon absolutely absolutely and i 01:05:06.329 --> 01:05:08.369 think that's another brilliant move when you 01:05:08.369 --> 01:05:10.570 bring in homeland security and everybody else 01:05:10.570 --> 01:05:14.230 to show them from a chat room this is where we 01:05:14.230 --> 01:05:18.489 got to san diego kentucky etc now i do have one 01:05:18.489 --> 01:05:21.349 question when you got the fish back where do 01:05:21.349 --> 01:05:24.130 they go and that's another important thing when 01:05:24.130 --> 01:05:26.699 you're a fish and wildlife special agent Your 01:05:26.699 --> 01:05:29.980 evidence is often alive and requires care, feeding, 01:05:30.239 --> 01:05:33.000 and you have to find a home for it, right? You 01:05:33.000 --> 01:05:35.000 don't want it to get back into the market. It 01:05:35.000 --> 01:05:37.039 can't go back to Indonesia because you don't 01:05:37.039 --> 01:05:39.659 know where it came from and it can't be reintroduced 01:05:39.659 --> 01:05:43.800 or re put back in the wild because it might introduce 01:05:43.800 --> 01:05:48.000 a disease. So the good news is we recovered. 01:05:48.280 --> 01:05:50.960 We had all 12 fish. They all lived and they were 01:05:50.960 --> 01:05:52.920 all transferred to the Pittsburgh zoo, which 01:05:52.920 --> 01:05:56.150 of course is an accredited zoo under the Association 01:05:56.150 --> 01:06:00.389 of Zoos and Aquariums and they went to the you 01:06:00.389 --> 01:06:02.590 know they became an educational exhibit at the 01:06:02.590 --> 01:06:05.449 Pittsburgh Zoo so as far as I was concerned as 01:06:05.449 --> 01:06:08.050 an agent that's a good result. That's outstanding 01:06:08.050 --> 01:06:11.230 and I tell you you know I run the Wildlife CSI 01:06:11.230 --> 01:06:13.750 Academy which you and I have talked about and 01:06:13.750 --> 01:06:17.530 just the idea that now they are a teaching tool 01:06:17.530 --> 01:06:21.469 is to me a tremendous ending. That's one of the 01:06:21.469 --> 01:06:24.559 things whenever I donated you know, seized animals 01:06:24.559 --> 01:06:28.539 to a facility like that. I always think I couldn't 01:06:28.539 --> 01:06:30.280 force them to do it, but I always encourage them 01:06:30.280 --> 01:06:33.019 to include some type of educational placard to 01:06:33.019 --> 01:06:35.579 let the public know that these animals were recovered 01:06:35.579 --> 01:06:38.579 during a coronal wildlife trafficking investigation. 01:06:38.659 --> 01:06:41.739 Just so people know, you know, these things are 01:06:41.739 --> 01:06:46.079 they're not they're expendable. Right. Absolutely. 01:06:46.940 --> 01:06:49.519 Well, Ed Newcomer, I cannot thank you enough 01:06:49.519 --> 01:06:52.800 for coming on to Zone 7, for being just a phone 01:06:52.800 --> 01:06:55.320 call away if we have a situation with an animal 01:06:55.320 --> 01:06:58.099 that we need help with. And your career speaks 01:06:58.099 --> 01:07:01.739 for itself. Well, you know what? Thank you for 01:07:01.739 --> 01:07:03.579 having me on. And if you don't mind, I'll make 01:07:03.579 --> 01:07:06.460 one more plug for my podcast. And in the podcast, 01:07:06.519 --> 01:07:08.739 I'm not telling my stories. I'm interviewing 01:07:08.739 --> 01:07:11.719 other agents and state wildlife officers who 01:07:11.719 --> 01:07:14.699 have similar. really great stories from their 01:07:14.699 --> 01:07:16.719 careers. So anybody who's interested in this 01:07:16.719 --> 01:07:19.679 kind of true crime, don't feel like you're going 01:07:19.679 --> 01:07:22.420 to hear the newcomer story when you tune in to 01:07:22.420 --> 01:07:23.739 Nature's Secret Service because you're going 01:07:23.739 --> 01:07:26.260 to hear some awesome stories from some awesome 01:07:26.260 --> 01:07:28.619 federal and state officers who work on wildlife 01:07:28.619 --> 01:07:32.340 crime. Love it. Nature's Secret Service. Y 'all 01:07:32.340 --> 01:07:35.679 get to it. The stories you will not believe what 01:07:35.679 --> 01:07:39.019 is going on in the wildlife arena. I'm just telling 01:07:39.019 --> 01:07:41.500 you, you won't believe it. But Ed, thank you 01:07:41.500 --> 01:07:43.980 so much. You're welcome, Cheryl. It's been a 01:07:43.980 --> 01:07:46.420 real pleasure. I've enjoyed it, and I hope we 01:07:46.420 --> 01:07:48.719 can do it again sometime. I'm going to end Zone 01:07:48.719 --> 01:07:51.780 7 the way that I always do, with a quote. And 01:07:51.780 --> 01:07:53.860 I want you all to think about Ed's mustache, 01:07:54.719 --> 01:07:56.500 because it was the inspiration for this quote. 01:07:57.179 --> 01:07:59.920 My dad worked for the Fish and Wildlife Service, 01:08:00.300 --> 01:08:02.420 and he worked for the Department of the Interior, 01:08:02.719 --> 01:08:05.619 you know, like the federal government. And consequently, 01:08:05.880 --> 01:08:10.079 I spent a lot of time outdoors in my life. I 01:08:10.079 --> 01:08:13.820 even became the voice of Smokey the Bear, Sam 01:08:13.820 --> 01:08:17.779 Elliott. I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone 01:08:17.779 --> 01:08:18.300 7.