WEBVTT

00:00:00.140 --> 00:00:02.540
If you want to learn more about the topics of

00:00:02.540 --> 00:00:06.219
today's episode, visit the podcast website at

00:00:06.219 --> 00:00:09.339
naturessecretservice .com. Thanks for listening.

00:00:35.879 --> 00:00:39.119
Okay, people, listen up. Here we go. This is

00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:41.079
Nature's Secret Service, the podcast that puts

00:00:41.079 --> 00:00:43.219
you in the room with the men and women of wildlife

00:00:43.219 --> 00:00:46.079
law enforcement. I'm your host, Ed Newcomer,

00:00:46.140 --> 00:00:49.759
and today our guest is Erin Dean, former special

00:00:49.759 --> 00:00:53.659
agent with the US Fish and Wildlife Service and

00:00:53.659 --> 00:00:56.619
super good friend of mine. Erin Dean, thanks

00:00:56.619 --> 00:00:59.399
for being on the show. Sure. Nice to be here,

00:00:59.399 --> 00:01:04.519
Ed. You sound a little reluctant. You know, these

00:01:04.519 --> 00:01:07.599
are not my favorite things to do. Yeah, you always

00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:10.599
say that but you're actually really good at at

00:01:10.599 --> 00:01:14.219
being us telling our story and being a spokesperson

00:01:14.219 --> 00:01:17.640
for the Fish and Wildlife Service. So well, I

00:01:17.640 --> 00:01:21.680
used to get paid to do this. That's true. I'm

00:01:21.680 --> 00:01:28.200
not paying you. All favors. Well, you know Erin

00:01:28.200 --> 00:01:30.400
you and I we work together for a long time. I

00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:32.060
don't think it's any secret. You're my all -time

00:01:32.060 --> 00:01:39.500
favorite agent You have a long background in

00:01:39.500 --> 00:01:41.920
the Fish and Wildlife Service you like Marie

00:01:41.920 --> 00:01:45.019
Palladini who was on the show before in this

00:01:45.019 --> 00:01:48.620
season You you came on with the service fairly

00:01:48.620 --> 00:01:52.700
young right soon after college Yes, in fact,

00:01:52.700 --> 00:01:56.459
I graduated from college at University of Wyoming

00:01:56.459 --> 00:02:00.260
and literally the next day left for Washington

00:02:00.260 --> 00:02:05.599
DC to start my career with US Fish and Wildlife

00:02:05.599 --> 00:02:08.319
Service. And what was that first job you had?

00:02:08.520 --> 00:02:10.219
Because it was with law enforcement, but not

00:02:10.219 --> 00:02:12.719
as a sworn officer, right? Correct. Yes. What

00:02:12.719 --> 00:02:17.699
was that first job? It was a secretary. No kidding.

00:02:17.939 --> 00:02:21.400
Yeah. But it was ironically, if I remember right,

00:02:21.439 --> 00:02:24.180
it was for special ops, right? Correct. Yeah.

00:02:24.180 --> 00:02:27.960
Yes. I worked. I started out working for some

00:02:27.960 --> 00:02:30.900
of the greats from Fish and Wildlife Service.

00:02:31.740 --> 00:02:35.800
Dick Marks, Rick Leach, George Morrison. Right.

00:02:35.960 --> 00:02:39.979
Classic. Yes. Heroes of the service. Absolutely.

00:02:40.400 --> 00:02:42.599
Yeah. That must have been crazy to go straight

00:02:42.599 --> 00:02:45.900
from college to working not just in, you know,

00:02:46.020 --> 00:02:47.879
Fish and Wildlife Service law enforcement, but

00:02:48.219 --> 00:02:50.340
at the special operations unit where they were

00:02:50.340 --> 00:02:53.580
doing a lot of long term kind of hardcore undercover

00:02:53.580 --> 00:02:57.800
stuff. Yeah, I was I was pretty naive quite honestly.

00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:02.860
You know, after I graduated from college and

00:03:02.860 --> 00:03:06.159
growing up in Wyoming, you know, I really didn't

00:03:06.159 --> 00:03:09.039
know anything about US Fish and Wildlife Service.

00:03:09.400 --> 00:03:12.620
And when I was getting ready to graduate and

00:03:12.620 --> 00:03:15.960
I didn't have a job and I called and I said,

00:03:16.039 --> 00:03:20.419
Hey, is there anything that I could do in DC.

00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:26.860
And he said, well, there's this one glamorous

00:03:26.860 --> 00:03:30.939
position. As a secretary. As a secretary. And

00:03:30.939 --> 00:03:33.099
I said, well, that sounds great. You know, I

00:03:33.099 --> 00:03:35.520
really didn't know what I was going to do and

00:03:35.520 --> 00:03:39.919
thought maybe I'd go back to school and maybe

00:03:39.919 --> 00:03:42.159
go to law school or something like that. And

00:03:42.159 --> 00:03:48.349
so, yeah, so I took it. I fell in love with the

00:03:48.349 --> 00:03:55.349
agency. It was really pretty exciting as a 22

00:03:55.349 --> 00:03:58.710
-year -old going back and being kind of dumped

00:03:58.710 --> 00:04:03.189
into the special operations unit where all those

00:04:03.189 --> 00:04:08.280
agents work deep undercover cases. Yeah, it was

00:04:08.280 --> 00:04:10.139
pretty fun. Pretty cool. And here you got to

00:04:10.139 --> 00:04:13.039
see like their reports and see how they prepared

00:04:13.039 --> 00:04:14.900
for trial and all those different things that

00:04:14.900 --> 00:04:17.959
they do. And it gave you a real early, you know,

00:04:18.079 --> 00:04:20.300
kind of intro into the world of law enforcement,

00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:24.160
which is cool. Exactly. I was, I always laugh

00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:29.519
and joke that I was a professional Xeroxer. I

00:04:29.519 --> 00:04:35.250
prepared prosecution notebooks and looked at

00:04:35.250 --> 00:04:39.829
their reports and Listened to their tapes and

00:04:39.829 --> 00:04:42.490
their undercover tapes and stuff like that. It

00:04:42.490 --> 00:04:45.490
was you got to see all the crazy background stuff

00:04:45.490 --> 00:04:48.829
that Nobody talks about on TV shows or anything

00:04:48.829 --> 00:04:50.790
because it's the boring part of law enforcement

00:04:50.790 --> 00:04:53.730
It's the writing up the reports and it's preparing,

00:04:53.730 --> 00:04:57.250
you know as you said trial notebooks for Assistant

00:04:57.250 --> 00:04:59.670
US attorneys to review and look at and get ready

00:04:59.670 --> 00:05:02.579
to go to to trial. Oh, that's not very sexy.

00:05:02.699 --> 00:05:05.540
Never gets included in the TV shows. No, for

00:05:05.540 --> 00:05:10.079
sure. But but it gave me a good look at what

00:05:10.079 --> 00:05:13.120
agents in the fish and wildlife did. And and

00:05:13.120 --> 00:05:16.620
it was very exciting to me. And so I decided

00:05:16.620 --> 00:05:20.439
to stick around. But you had you were you kind

00:05:20.439 --> 00:05:23.439
of had a affinity for law enforcement going way

00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:26.170
back, right? If I remember right, from when we

00:05:26.170 --> 00:05:29.089
were agents together, you told me a story once

00:05:29.089 --> 00:05:31.410
that shocked me because it was so similar to

00:05:31.410 --> 00:05:34.790
my childhood. You had, I don't know how old you

00:05:34.790 --> 00:05:37.370
were, 10, somewhere in there, you tell me, but

00:05:37.370 --> 00:05:39.990
you had like a detective agency with your friend,

00:05:40.129 --> 00:05:45.449
right? Yes, with my cousin, yes. We were private

00:05:45.449 --> 00:05:51.050
investigators and we had our files and I believe

00:05:51.050 --> 00:05:55.579
I was... Badge number 0 1 6 7. I remember that

00:05:55.579 --> 00:05:58.379
to this day random number just a random number.

00:05:58.379 --> 00:06:03.079
She was 0 1 6 6 and We did our investigations

00:06:03.079 --> 00:06:05.399
throughout the neighborhood and and how old are

00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:09.420
you then? It's probably I was probably 10. Uh

00:06:09.420 --> 00:06:11.519
-huh. Yeah, I remember when you told me that

00:06:11.519 --> 00:06:13.360
story I don't know where we were launcher and

00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:15.100
just in the conference room, but it struck me

00:06:15.100 --> 00:06:18.389
because Had an exact same experience at about

00:06:18.389 --> 00:06:21.250
that same age 10 11 12 me and a friend of mine

00:06:21.250 --> 00:06:24.629
We had our own detective agency in air quotes

00:06:24.629 --> 00:06:27.670
We even went so far back then at the back of

00:06:27.670 --> 00:06:29.389
a comic book used to build, you know There was

00:06:29.389 --> 00:06:31.129
always like these little junk things you could

00:06:31.129 --> 00:06:34.290
order They were either advertisements in the

00:06:34.290 --> 00:06:37.189
back of comic books and one day we found these

00:06:37.189 --> 00:06:40.110
special investigator wallet badges that you could

00:06:40.110 --> 00:06:42.709
buy for you know a couple dollars We ordered

00:06:42.709 --> 00:06:44.930
them right away, and I still have mine as my

00:06:44.930 --> 00:06:49.610
first set of creds. You know Yeah, I don't I

00:06:49.610 --> 00:06:51.569
didn't have a badge number, but I did have files

00:06:51.569 --> 00:06:54.060
on some people in my neighborhood Think I had

00:06:54.060 --> 00:06:58.620
a paper badge That's awesome, so you know it

00:06:58.620 --> 00:07:00.899
was always kind of in our blood years in mind

00:07:00.899 --> 00:07:04.019
to go into law enforcement So you but after you

00:07:04.019 --> 00:07:06.500
were the secretary there as a young person you

00:07:06.500 --> 00:07:08.899
eventually came on as a wildlife inspector, right?

00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:13.879
Yes, so that secretary position was just a temporary

00:07:13.879 --> 00:07:18.920
position And I stayed on for about 11 months

00:07:18.920 --> 00:07:23.759
and then I started Applying for positions permanent

00:07:23.759 --> 00:07:27.980
positions and I got hired out here in Los Angeles

00:07:27.980 --> 00:07:32.540
As a wildlife inspector in 1993 We've talked

00:07:32.540 --> 00:07:35.060
about wildlife inspectors on this show just briefly

00:07:35.060 --> 00:07:39.199
before but since you were one Kind of explained

00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:42.199
for our listeners what a lot wildlife inspector

00:07:42.199 --> 00:07:44.899
is so in the office of law enforcement We have

00:07:44.899 --> 00:07:46.860
special agents and we have a wildlife inspector.

00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:49.220
So what does a wildlife inspector do and what

00:07:49.220 --> 00:07:51.139
are they? What's the difference between them

00:07:51.139 --> 00:07:53.680
and a special agent? So the wildlife inspectors

00:07:53.680 --> 00:07:58.939
are the uniformed portion of Office of Law Enforcement

00:07:58.939 --> 00:08:03.800
and they are tasked to enforce wildlife laws,

00:08:04.379 --> 00:08:08.199
international wildlife laws, and inspect shipments,

00:08:08.699 --> 00:08:13.500
live product, whatever, of wildlife coming in

00:08:13.500 --> 00:08:16.680
and out of the United States. so they are stationed

00:08:16.680 --> 00:08:22.939
at all ports of entry around the US and Look

00:08:22.939 --> 00:08:27.920
for both declared wildlife Inspections to make

00:08:27.920 --> 00:08:30.439
sure that they're all the paperwork is accurate,

00:08:30.439 --> 00:08:35.000
but also are looking for Smuggled wildlife right

00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:38.759
or illegal contraband wildlife right and then

00:08:38.759 --> 00:08:42.980
of course the agents are the non -uniformed officers

00:08:42.980 --> 00:08:48.289
and conduct investigations and conduct arrests

00:08:48.289 --> 00:08:51.769
and search warrants and Right. Yeah, and then

00:08:51.769 --> 00:08:53.909
specters are not armed. They don't have arrest

00:08:53.909 --> 00:08:56.629
authority. And they're, they're kind of their

00:08:56.629 --> 00:08:58.750
their scope of their job is limited to those

00:08:58.750 --> 00:09:01.009
ports of entry you mentioned. So correct. They

00:09:01.009 --> 00:09:03.090
might be at the border at the sea port or the

00:09:03.090 --> 00:09:05.870
airport or the mail facility, but they're not

00:09:05.870 --> 00:09:08.370
out and about like agents are trying to right

00:09:08.370 --> 00:09:13.590
investigate crimes. Yeah. So You within that

00:09:13.590 --> 00:09:16.669
job, so you were sent to LA as an inspector first,

00:09:16.710 --> 00:09:20.389
right? Yes, and then but you have a unique kind

00:09:20.389 --> 00:09:24.429
of Cred to your to your career and that is you

00:09:24.429 --> 00:09:27.710
ended up becoming the very first Wildlife inspector

00:09:27.710 --> 00:09:30.830
to run a canine detection unit team, right? You

00:09:30.830 --> 00:09:33.889
were the the first and the only canine detection

00:09:33.889 --> 00:09:35.929
wildlife inspector in the Fish and Wildlife Service

00:09:35.929 --> 00:09:40.870
What what year was that? That was 1996 I believe

00:09:40.870 --> 00:09:44.649
and I was so I came to LA and I spent a few years

00:09:44.649 --> 00:09:46.690
in LA as an inspector and then I transferred

00:09:46.690 --> 00:09:50.629
down to the border San Diego and worked down

00:09:50.629 --> 00:09:54.009
there for several years and then while I was

00:09:54.009 --> 00:09:57.629
down there we created this program and I was

00:09:57.629 --> 00:10:02.529
the I was the first canine handler for law enforcement

00:10:02.529 --> 00:10:07.580
but refuges actually did have One canine unit

00:10:07.580 --> 00:10:10.600
Ahead of us, but for law enforcement. Yes. I

00:10:10.600 --> 00:10:13.559
was the very first one Okay, and when when you

00:10:13.559 --> 00:10:16.019
when Aaron's talking about refuges there She's

00:10:16.019 --> 00:10:18.120
talking about the US Fish and Wildlife Service

00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:22.220
Refuge system, which basically is kind of land

00:10:22.220 --> 00:10:26.320
areas set aside as wildlife refuges similar to

00:10:26.320 --> 00:10:29.320
a National Park or you know, it's public land,

00:10:29.639 --> 00:10:31.779
but it's set aside for wildlife and they do have

00:10:31.779 --> 00:10:35.419
their own uniform patrol officers that work those

00:10:35.419 --> 00:10:39.000
properties. Yes. So I must have been crazy to

00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:41.559
like start a program from nothing and get it

00:10:41.559 --> 00:10:45.419
going. Yeah, it was. It was a lot of work actually.

00:10:46.019 --> 00:10:49.460
And you know, I credit my supervisor at the time,

00:10:49.580 --> 00:10:52.460
Larry Farrington, for letting us run with this

00:10:52.460 --> 00:10:56.799
idea. You know, my coworkers down in San Diego,

00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:02.580
the three of us worked together tirelessly trying

00:11:02.580 --> 00:11:06.159
to create this program and to sell it to our

00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:09.480
management, our upper management. And we started

00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:14.840
off working with search and rescue ladies, handlers,

00:11:15.659 --> 00:11:19.679
and then eventually trying to show that their

00:11:19.679 --> 00:11:24.240
dogs could be trained to detect wildlife, live

00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:29.299
and product. And so eventually I got my own dog

00:11:29.299 --> 00:11:34.600
and actually went to training and trained this

00:11:34.600 --> 00:11:37.220
dog how to detect different kinds of wildlife.

00:11:37.500 --> 00:11:40.399
That's amazing. I remember I still have a picture

00:11:40.399 --> 00:11:43.399
of Mason. Mason was your dog. I have a picture

00:11:43.399 --> 00:11:45.940
of Mason actually on my refrigerator in my house.

00:11:45.940 --> 00:11:50.539
Oh yes. My first baby. That's right. What was

00:11:50.539 --> 00:11:52.659
Mason trained to detect? What kind of wildlife?

00:11:52.740 --> 00:11:57.419
Do you remember? Yes, he was trained to detect

00:11:57.419 --> 00:12:01.309
live birds because we worked Primarily down at

00:12:01.309 --> 00:12:03.909
the border right and so we had a lot of bird

00:12:03.909 --> 00:12:06.169
smuggling coming in parrot smuggling coming in

00:12:06.169 --> 00:12:10.370
from Mexico, right? He was trained to find live

00:12:10.370 --> 00:12:13.929
Reptiles because we also got a lot of that down

00:12:13.929 --> 00:12:17.570
on the border and then we trained him on bear

00:12:17.570 --> 00:12:22.830
bile Interesting. Yes bear gallbladder bile Because

00:12:22.830 --> 00:12:26.809
we were a lot At a lot of the other ports of

00:12:26.809 --> 00:12:30.610
entry, San Francisco, LA, we were having some

00:12:30.610 --> 00:12:34.750
issues with people smuggling bear gall bladders

00:12:34.750 --> 00:12:38.590
into the United States. As you know, so much

00:12:38.590 --> 00:12:41.840
of wildlife trafficking is kind of... Cyclical

00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:44.600
and it goes in fits and spurts and it changes

00:12:44.600 --> 00:12:47.679
over time, right? So I remember yeah in the late

00:12:47.679 --> 00:12:50.279
90s early 2000s There's a lot of parrots coming

00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:52.759
across the border from Mexico being smuggled

00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:54.679
Yeah, and then we did a lot of enforcement work

00:12:54.679 --> 00:12:57.120
and that kind of went away for a while Yes, and

00:12:57.120 --> 00:12:59.100
then other things pick up, you know reptiles

00:12:59.100 --> 00:13:02.019
or sea cucumbers or whatever and then there we

00:13:02.019 --> 00:13:03.960
take law enforcement action and we kind of tamp

00:13:03.960 --> 00:13:09.259
it down and a dog is just Canine detection is

00:13:09.259 --> 00:13:11.860
just so valuable for law enforcement. You can't

00:13:11.860 --> 00:13:14.940
even really Articulate how valuable it is even

00:13:14.940 --> 00:13:18.679
if the dogs not finding something Just the fact

00:13:18.679 --> 00:13:21.720
that somebody sees a wildlife inspector running

00:13:21.720 --> 00:13:24.919
a dog on a line of cars at the border That's

00:13:24.919 --> 00:13:27.899
a huge deterrent Right? Because the public doesn't

00:13:27.899 --> 00:13:30.159
know what that dog's trained to detect and how

00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:33.159
good it is or how bad it is. Right? Yeah. So

00:13:33.159 --> 00:13:35.460
there's the finding stuff is valuable, but also

00:13:35.460 --> 00:13:37.500
just the presence of that dog in view of the

00:13:37.500 --> 00:13:40.879
public is huge, right? For sure. And I remember

00:13:40.879 --> 00:13:45.059
my trainer telling me, you know, you can train

00:13:45.059 --> 00:13:47.539
a dog to find paper clips, if that's what you

00:13:47.539 --> 00:13:51.299
want your dog to find. So you can you know, the

00:13:51.299 --> 00:13:53.679
the sky's the limit on what you could train them.

00:13:53.850 --> 00:13:57.470
Yeah. To be looking for, you know, whatever the

00:13:57.470 --> 00:14:00.590
current wildlife smuggling trend is, you could

00:14:00.590 --> 00:14:02.789
train your dog. Exactly. Find it. And you can

00:14:02.789 --> 00:14:05.710
change the training over time, right? If wildlife,

00:14:05.870 --> 00:14:09.269
if a new species is being smuggled, you could

00:14:09.269 --> 00:14:13.730
have trained a mason to detect, you know, a certain

00:14:13.730 --> 00:14:16.230
type, different animal, right? If you wanted

00:14:16.230 --> 00:14:18.490
to, if you needed to, you could be trained. Yeah,

00:14:18.690 --> 00:14:20.850
absolutely. And the cool thing about this, you

00:14:20.850 --> 00:14:24.450
being the pioneer in this program, You there

00:14:24.450 --> 00:14:27.809
is now an established canine detection program

00:14:27.809 --> 00:14:29.350
throughout the fish and wildlife service I don't

00:14:29.350 --> 00:14:32.309
know how many dogs the service has now, but it's

00:14:32.309 --> 00:14:34.950
it's at least half a dozen probably yeah, and

00:14:34.950 --> 00:14:37.710
they have full -time wildlife inspector canine

00:14:37.710 --> 00:14:41.090
units and that is all because of you pioneering

00:14:41.090 --> 00:14:44.169
that program so Super cool. It took a while to

00:14:44.169 --> 00:14:46.769
get it going Yeah, and fish and wildlife stumbled

00:14:46.769 --> 00:14:49.610
a little bit and implementing it and making it

00:14:49.610 --> 00:14:52.940
effective. There was kind of a gap between when

00:14:52.940 --> 00:14:55.960
I got hired as a special agent and I had to give

00:14:55.960 --> 00:15:00.500
up my canine there were a few years but the service

00:15:00.500 --> 00:15:04.340
picked it up a few years later and it's alive

00:15:04.340 --> 00:15:06.779
and well today. Yeah and we'll come back to the

00:15:06.779 --> 00:15:08.779
canine program a little bit because one of the

00:15:08.779 --> 00:15:13.080
first dogs after yours when the program was initiated

00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:16.629
nationwide LA Los Angeles is one of the first

00:15:16.629 --> 00:15:18.649
places that got a dog and by that time you were

00:15:18.649 --> 00:15:20.649
the supervisor in LA So we'll come back to that

00:15:20.649 --> 00:15:23.389
in a second, but so now you you mentioned what

00:15:23.389 --> 00:15:27.090
you became an agent at some point So you transitioned

00:15:27.090 --> 00:15:29.169
from being a uniformed wildlife inspector now

00:15:29.169 --> 00:15:31.929
to being a gun carrying arrest authority special

00:15:31.929 --> 00:15:35.529
agent. What year was that? 2001 yeah, that was

00:15:35.529 --> 00:15:38.250
the year before I got hired so shortly after

00:15:38.250 --> 00:15:42.429
you became an agent and you were sent to LA right?

00:15:42.590 --> 00:15:45.860
Yep. Yep I arrived in LA about a year later,

00:15:46.379 --> 00:15:50.679
and my first impression, so you and I, I think

00:15:50.679 --> 00:15:55.500
share, we share a mentor. I mean, Marie Palladini

00:15:55.500 --> 00:15:58.279
is your mentor, I assume, right? For sure. For

00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:01.620
sure. She is amazing. Mine too. Still is. Still

00:16:01.620 --> 00:16:06.240
is, always was. And so we were both kind of working

00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:09.120
with Marie and being supervised by Marie and

00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:12.250
trained by Marie. You and I became fast friends.

00:16:12.669 --> 00:16:15.409
But what I remember coming into the office was

00:16:15.409 --> 00:16:20.049
I looked around at all the agents in the office.

00:16:20.190 --> 00:16:23.389
We were fully staffed when I arrived in 2003.

00:16:24.289 --> 00:16:26.090
You had been there about a year after coming

00:16:26.090 --> 00:16:28.870
out of training and everybody was killing it.

00:16:29.049 --> 00:16:31.529
Do you remember that? I mean, yeah, we were busy.

00:16:31.690 --> 00:16:34.149
We were busy. I felt like every week we were

00:16:34.149 --> 00:16:36.490
doing a search warrant or an arrest warrant or

00:16:36.490 --> 00:16:39.169
some type of massive surveillance operation that

00:16:39.169 --> 00:16:42.789
involved. Pretty much all of us. Yeah. Yeah the

00:16:42.789 --> 00:16:45.250
good old days the good old days and I remember

00:16:45.250 --> 00:16:48.690
looking around and and you and Neil Mendelsohn

00:16:48.690 --> 00:16:51.590
all the agents and Bruce Talosky and just being

00:16:51.590 --> 00:16:55.409
like How the hell am I gonna meet this bar that

00:16:55.409 --> 00:16:58.610
these people are setting? And one instance in

00:16:58.610 --> 00:17:00.750
particular you took me to the airport. I was

00:17:00.750 --> 00:17:02.850
brand new I don't know what you were doing out

00:17:02.850 --> 00:17:05.130
there, but you you took me out to the airport

00:17:05.130 --> 00:17:07.430
to go do something related I think it was a bear

00:17:07.430 --> 00:17:11.240
bile case actually that you were working on And

00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:14.900
we, I can't really explain it, but I watched

00:17:14.900 --> 00:17:17.759
you and just the way, you had only been on a

00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:20.279
year and you were just working so fluidly with

00:17:20.279 --> 00:17:23.480
U .S. Customs and Border Protection, making your

00:17:23.480 --> 00:17:25.460
way through security at the airport, knowing

00:17:25.460 --> 00:17:28.960
exactly where to go and what to look at. I thought,

00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:31.000
holy shit, I'm never gonna be able to do this

00:17:31.000 --> 00:17:34.279
job. It was impressive. That was all a facade.

00:17:35.019 --> 00:17:38.410
Because I had no idea what I was doing. Well,

00:17:38.410 --> 00:17:40.210
you definitely faked it well. You definitely

00:17:40.210 --> 00:17:42.450
faked it well. So the big question I have for

00:17:42.450 --> 00:17:45.670
you, since Marie is your mentor and my mentor,

00:17:46.230 --> 00:17:48.329
between the two of us, who do you think is her

00:17:48.329 --> 00:17:51.529
favorite? Who do you think is Marie's favorite?

00:17:51.549 --> 00:17:56.950
Oh, me for sure. Good. That's the right answer.

00:17:57.750 --> 00:18:00.369
No, I don't know. I don't think she has a favorite.

00:18:00.509 --> 00:18:04.410
Oh, yeah. She likes us both the same. OK, that's

00:18:04.410 --> 00:18:07.359
a better answer. All right, so you became an

00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:10.559
agent and that leads us into well, actually,

00:18:10.559 --> 00:18:13.960
what I want to talk about next, I think, is we'll

00:18:13.960 --> 00:18:15.460
come back to the case that we're going to talk

00:18:15.460 --> 00:18:19.059
about today. But after being an agent in L .A.

00:18:19.099 --> 00:18:22.519
when when Marie Palladini retired, you ended

00:18:22.519 --> 00:18:24.859
up becoming the resident agent in charge for

00:18:24.859 --> 00:18:26.640
Southern California. You basically took over

00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:30.180
her role. That must have been crazy. It was it

00:18:30.180 --> 00:18:34.529
was big shoes to fill. Yeah, because. I mean

00:18:34.529 --> 00:18:36.730
what we're talking about is not just the supervisor

00:18:36.730 --> 00:18:39.869
of the LA office You were the agent in charge

00:18:39.869 --> 00:18:42.569
of all of our law enforcement operations in Southern,

00:18:42.569 --> 00:18:46.130
California So that's basically Kern County south

00:18:46.130 --> 00:18:49.089
to the border of Mexico and then east to the

00:18:49.089 --> 00:18:52.609
border of with what Arizona and Nevada, right?

00:18:52.869 --> 00:18:57.390
Yeah. Yeah, it was it was an overwhelming position

00:18:57.390 --> 00:19:02.589
When I took over I was pretty young in my career,

00:19:02.589 --> 00:19:06.269
honestly. If I could go back, I probably would

00:19:06.269 --> 00:19:10.130
have waited a bit to go into that type of position.

00:19:11.109 --> 00:19:15.769
The fun times were investigating, doing those

00:19:15.769 --> 00:19:20.230
cases and being out in the field. And it was

00:19:20.230 --> 00:19:25.289
a huge territory to supervise and a large office

00:19:25.289 --> 00:19:29.130
of inspectors, administrative staff, and agents.

00:19:30.380 --> 00:19:37.680
We had the LAX airport, we had the largest border

00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:42.119
down in San Diego, Mexico border, all those ports

00:19:42.119 --> 00:19:47.900
of entry. We were, it was busy. Yeah, plus the

00:19:47.900 --> 00:19:50.319
field office in San Diego, right? Correct. Where

00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:52.559
we have special agents and wildlife inspectors

00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:55.400
as well. Yes. That border you mentioned, It's

00:19:55.400 --> 00:19:59.240
140 miles of border between California and Mexico.

00:19:59.700 --> 00:20:02.059
And I forget how many border crossings are in

00:20:02.059 --> 00:20:05.119
there. It's three or five. Five. Okay. Yeah.

00:20:05.319 --> 00:20:08.079
So that's a huge responsibility, tons of illegal

00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:11.240
wildlife coming across from Mexico into the US.

00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:14.259
All kinds, right? Fish, you even intercepted

00:20:14.259 --> 00:20:16.740
a tiger cub at one point coming across the border

00:20:16.740 --> 00:20:20.079
there. I mean, your agents did. Yes. Yeah. And

00:20:20.079 --> 00:20:22.559
then we're also talking about an area with 23

00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:25.460
plus million people in it. and the largest county

00:20:25.460 --> 00:20:27.819
in the United States, the largest seaport in

00:20:27.819 --> 00:20:31.519
the United States. So huge, huge responsibility.

00:20:32.599 --> 00:20:35.920
What, you know, what was like the most rewarding

00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:38.440
aspect? So how long were you there? The rack,

00:20:38.440 --> 00:20:41.960
the resident agent in charge? 14 years, 14 years

00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:44.700
is the most rewarding. Do you have anything that

00:20:44.700 --> 00:20:47.480
jumps out at you as being like the most rewarding

00:20:47.480 --> 00:20:51.319
aspect of being a supervisor? You know, honestly,

00:20:51.319 --> 00:20:55.490
you know, we were joking about the me being interviewed

00:20:55.490 --> 00:21:00.029
and not really enjoying that. But I feel like

00:21:00.029 --> 00:21:05.309
we kind of put LA on the map because we did do

00:21:05.309 --> 00:21:09.150
a lot of media. We did do a lot of interviews

00:21:09.150 --> 00:21:14.609
and getting our word out. And I really felt like

00:21:14.609 --> 00:21:18.960
that was an important part of my job. even though

00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:21.720
I didn't really, you know, enjoy the interview

00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:25.359
and whatnot, but it was pretty important to talk

00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:29.779
about our cases and, you know, all of that comes

00:21:29.779 --> 00:21:35.019
with funding and awareness and deterrence and

00:21:35.019 --> 00:21:40.480
all of that, so. Yeah, I mean, at its core, the

00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:42.859
American people are taxpayers. They pay our salary.

00:21:42.900 --> 00:21:45.400
We do work for them. They need to know what we

00:21:45.400 --> 00:21:48.569
do, right? there's that. Yeah. And then the more

00:21:48.569 --> 00:21:51.049
the more information you get out about how good

00:21:51.049 --> 00:21:53.369
your agents are and how good they do their job,

00:21:53.829 --> 00:21:55.950
the more that deters people from potentially

00:21:55.950 --> 00:21:58.670
committing crime who might have been leaning

00:21:58.670 --> 00:22:01.190
that way. Right? Yeah. You know, I think a lot

00:22:01.190 --> 00:22:03.349
of times with other people within the Fish and

00:22:03.349 --> 00:22:05.170
Wildlife Service, particularly some people at

00:22:05.170 --> 00:22:07.329
headquarters, you know who I'm talking about,

00:22:08.210 --> 00:22:11.690
never understood why LA did get in the media

00:22:11.690 --> 00:22:15.119
as much as it did. And You know, it just doesn't

00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:18.559
take a rocket scientist to figure out that number

00:22:18.559 --> 00:22:21.339
one, Los Angeles, Southern California for the

00:22:21.339 --> 00:22:22.740
Fish and Wildlife Service has always been one

00:22:22.740 --> 00:22:25.039
of the busiest field offices in the country.

00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:27.720
Maria and I talked about that during her episode.

00:22:28.460 --> 00:22:30.880
And the other thing is, this is the media capital

00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:33.319
of the world, right? Yeah. So the US attorney

00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:36.319
puts out a press release about any animal case.

00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:40.359
Every news agency in Los Angeles picks it up.

00:22:40.380 --> 00:22:43.210
And when they pick it up, News agencies across

00:22:43.210 --> 00:22:46.390
the US pick it up So there's a huge opportunity

00:22:46.390 --> 00:22:49.549
to get the word out that you very smartly Capitalized

00:22:49.549 --> 00:22:51.190
on and you weren't afraid to talk to the media

00:22:51.190 --> 00:22:53.490
even though you didn't like it Yeah, you know

00:22:53.490 --> 00:22:55.609
the other thing you did too as the resident agent

00:22:55.609 --> 00:22:59.130
in charge you made sure and then part of the

00:22:59.130 --> 00:23:02.089
reason I know this so well is because about a

00:23:02.089 --> 00:23:03.970
year after you became the resident agent charge

00:23:03.970 --> 00:23:07.269
you hired me to be your deputy and There were

00:23:07.269 --> 00:23:10.240
I think three areas of the country that had deputy

00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:13.160
resident agents in charge. One was LA, New York,

00:23:13.400 --> 00:23:16.680
and Miami, or the Florida area there. But so

00:23:16.680 --> 00:23:18.700
I knew, you know, I worked with you as a deputy

00:23:18.700 --> 00:23:22.779
for seven and a half years. And I knew how you

00:23:22.779 --> 00:23:24.339
operated and what you were doing and what your

00:23:24.339 --> 00:23:26.140
philosophy was. And the other thing you did,

00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:29.420
you made sure we were very relevant in the law

00:23:29.420 --> 00:23:31.480
enforcement community in Southern California.

00:23:31.519 --> 00:23:34.200
Like you always had us What we're called the

00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:36.759
head fed meetings. Yeah, those were quarterly.

00:23:36.759 --> 00:23:39.420
I think right. I believe so Yeah, and that was

00:23:39.420 --> 00:23:41.539
run by the United States attorney for the Central

00:23:41.539 --> 00:23:43.779
District of California and it was every law enforcement

00:23:43.779 --> 00:23:48.720
agency in the Metro, you know area attended those

00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:52.119
and so we were there along with DEA FBI Secret

00:23:52.119 --> 00:23:55.180
Service made us You put us in front of the US

00:23:55.180 --> 00:23:57.519
Attorney's Office kept us very relevant and that's

00:23:57.519 --> 00:24:01.859
all you I was just gonna say that it was You

00:24:01.859 --> 00:24:05.579
know, it kept us in in touch with all the different

00:24:05.579 --> 00:24:09.220
agencies being such a small agency You know,

00:24:09.259 --> 00:24:12.240
we we needed help, you know out on surveillance

00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:16.519
arrests search warrants and stuff like that and

00:24:16.519 --> 00:24:20.180
you know, it's really about networking even in

00:24:20.180 --> 00:24:24.220
law enforcement and so I felt like that was a

00:24:24.220 --> 00:24:29.359
very important part of my job too is to to keep

00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:33.559
US Fish and Wildlife Service relevant to these

00:24:33.559 --> 00:24:37.180
other agents Agencies and you know, sometimes

00:24:37.180 --> 00:24:40.740
they'd crack jokes and you know, but I'd always

00:24:40.740 --> 00:24:43.480
go back Especially when we charged a case and

00:24:43.480 --> 00:24:47.380
it was splashed all over the news I mean people

00:24:47.380 --> 00:24:50.240
are just fascinated with our cases. There's there's

00:24:50.240 --> 00:24:53.460
just no doubt about that. Yep And the U .S. Attorney's

00:24:53.460 --> 00:24:57.539
Office knew that, you know, and so they capitalized

00:24:57.539 --> 00:25:01.660
on that. And it was good for us, I felt. Yeah,

00:25:01.799 --> 00:25:04.279
I agreed with you, especially as your deputy,

00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:06.319
of course. You know, it's funny you say that

00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:08.720
too, because I remember, I don't remember where

00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:10.599
I was, but there was some meeting I was going

00:25:10.599 --> 00:25:13.579
to attend and, you know, it hadn't started yet.

00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:16.279
And somebody else, the FBI or somebody wanted

00:25:16.279 --> 00:25:19.200
to get the meeting going. HSI agent told him

00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:20.980
no. No, you have to wait till the fish cops get

00:25:20.980 --> 00:25:24.400
here It's always some joke about us being the

00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:27.720
fish cops. Oh for sure secret squirrels or whatever

00:25:27.720 --> 00:25:31.339
they called us And that that's good good to talk

00:25:31.339 --> 00:25:33.480
about that that the importance of networking

00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:35.599
with other law enforcement agencies Not just

00:25:35.599 --> 00:25:38.099
the state agencies like the California Department

00:25:38.099 --> 00:25:41.160
of Fish and Wildlife But also all of our partner

00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:43.559
federal agencies and the case I want to talk

00:25:43.559 --> 00:25:45.160
to you about that you worked on when you were

00:25:45.160 --> 00:25:48.480
an agent Is kind of a perfect example of that

00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:53.759
and also a very interesting example of how Wildlife

00:25:53.759 --> 00:25:57.640
crime often overlaps with other crimes, right?

00:25:57.839 --> 00:26:00.140
You hear about it a lot like you hear this people

00:26:00.140 --> 00:26:02.599
say that but you don't see a lot of examples

00:26:02.599 --> 00:26:04.140
of it and the case you're going to talk about

00:26:04.140 --> 00:26:08.819
today is a classic example of while a person

00:26:08.819 --> 00:26:10.619
involved in wildlife crime, but also involved

00:26:10.619 --> 00:26:13.960
in other really serious crimes and and the the

00:26:13.960 --> 00:26:17.099
reason for that is because The person's a criminal,

00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:20.400
right? They just out to make money. They don't

00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:22.619
love animals. They aren't some sort of animal

00:26:22.619 --> 00:26:25.599
lover who got a little carried away. They're

00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:28.319
a crook. They're a criminal. And so, of course,

00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:31.119
they're going to be involved in wildlife crime

00:26:31.119 --> 00:26:34.539
and drugs or anything else, right? Whenever I

00:26:34.539 --> 00:26:36.900
would go out and give a presentation trying to

00:26:36.900 --> 00:26:41.599
explain what we did, I always gave the example,

00:26:41.779 --> 00:26:44.759
you know, we're just like... FBI agents were

00:26:44.759 --> 00:26:47.559
just like DEA agents, but you just switch that

00:26:47.559 --> 00:26:53.400
commodity from drugs weapons Illegal immigration

00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:57.019
to wildlife. Yeah, and it's just it's about money.

00:26:57.019 --> 00:26:59.700
It's about money and in the end It's about money

00:26:59.700 --> 00:27:02.000
and criminal activity and so many of these people

00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:03.779
as you know when they get in front of a judge

00:27:03.779 --> 00:27:07.180
they portray themselves as Someone who really

00:27:07.180 --> 00:27:09.160
cares about wildlife and sometimes they even

00:27:09.160 --> 00:27:11.680
try to say that they what they were doing was

00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:15.079
trying to propagate wildlife or say somehow pervertedly

00:27:15.079 --> 00:27:18.359
save wildlife and Unfortunately, sometimes judges

00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:20.960
fall for those stories, right? They're just crooks.

00:27:21.180 --> 00:27:23.839
Yeah, so we're gonna as a caveat Let me just

00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:26.339
warn our listeners that we're gonna refer to

00:27:26.339 --> 00:27:29.299
this criminal today by his first name only Craig

00:27:29.299 --> 00:27:32.240
We're not gonna say the last name because this

00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:36.779
person although was convicted This is not a person

00:27:36.779 --> 00:27:39.740
you, now that you and I are both retired, we

00:27:39.740 --> 00:27:41.900
don't carry guns every day. We don't want this

00:27:41.900 --> 00:27:45.460
person targeting anybody in this case, right?

00:27:45.460 --> 00:27:47.279
Whether it's us or informants. So we're gonna,

00:27:47.640 --> 00:27:50.519
we're not gonna divulge the identity of informants

00:27:50.519 --> 00:27:52.400
and we're just gonna refer this person as Craig

00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:55.920
today. And if we let the last name slip, we're

00:27:55.920 --> 00:27:58.000
gonna bleep it out. So if you hear a bleep, that's

00:27:58.000 --> 00:28:01.660
what that's about. Exactly. So tell us about

00:28:01.660 --> 00:28:05.529
this case involving Craig. My understanding is

00:28:05.529 --> 00:28:08.569
this this case is actually started. The state

00:28:08.569 --> 00:28:12.250
was investigating Craig. So the state of California,

00:28:12.369 --> 00:28:15.029
California Department of Fish and Wildlife. What

00:28:15.029 --> 00:28:17.170
were they looking at Craig for? And then how

00:28:17.170 --> 00:28:20.089
did you get hooked into this whole thing? I believe

00:28:20.089 --> 00:28:25.750
they were looking at Craig for the collection

00:28:25.750 --> 00:28:30.549
of illegal wildlife in California waters like

00:28:30.549 --> 00:28:34.339
state wildlife. So he was after fish. Yes. OK,

00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:36.680
I believe that's what they were looking at him

00:28:36.680 --> 00:28:40.240
for. OK, because I remember this. We were both

00:28:40.240 --> 00:28:42.460
new agents. You were working on this. I didn't

00:28:42.460 --> 00:28:43.880
for whatever reason. I don't know why I didn't

00:28:43.880 --> 00:28:46.519
get involved in helping you on this case, but

00:28:46.519 --> 00:28:48.759
maybe I was busy with my own stuff. I don't know.

00:28:49.240 --> 00:28:51.980
But I remember there was a state game warden

00:28:51.980 --> 00:28:54.279
who was doing a lot of surveillance. Yes. Rebecca

00:28:54.279 --> 00:28:57.460
Hartman. Yes. And you would kind of help her

00:28:57.460 --> 00:29:00.680
out with that, right? Oh, yes. That's how we

00:29:00.680 --> 00:29:04.500
really. got to know each other. We had met at

00:29:04.500 --> 00:29:07.740
the at the range, the qualifying shooting range,

00:29:08.099 --> 00:29:12.619
firearms, and we would sometimes go with California

00:29:12.619 --> 00:29:18.980
Fish and Wildlife Wardens to to qualify. And

00:29:18.980 --> 00:29:23.279
she was working this case and with this guy involving

00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:29.039
Craig. And it happened to his business happened

00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:33.670
to be very close to our office. in Torrance.

00:29:34.329 --> 00:29:37.089
And so, you know, I'd be working away at the

00:29:37.089 --> 00:29:39.549
office doing something and I'd get a call from

00:29:39.549 --> 00:29:42.930
Rebecca. Hey, I've been doing surveillance for

00:29:42.930 --> 00:29:45.309
hours. Is there any way you can come and relieve

00:29:45.309 --> 00:29:47.529
me just for a little bit so I could take a break?

00:29:47.829 --> 00:29:51.250
I gotta go to the bathroom. Yes. Yes. And so

00:29:51.250 --> 00:29:54.089
I'd, you know, race over there and you know,

00:29:54.490 --> 00:29:57.700
we'd switch out cars and I'd Sit there and watch

00:29:57.700 --> 00:30:00.759
for her for a bit until she had a little time

00:30:00.759 --> 00:30:03.900
to go break and come back. Yes But at this point,

00:30:03.900 --> 00:30:05.680
it's not a federal case, right? It's a state.

00:30:05.859 --> 00:30:11.039
No, it was just a He was a licensed importer.

00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:14.900
Okay exporter So we knew who he was certainly

00:30:14.900 --> 00:30:18.400
right, but we were not looking at him for any

00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:21.559
federal violations Yeah, and again for background

00:30:21.559 --> 00:30:24.420
the crazy thing about working on wildlife criminal

00:30:24.420 --> 00:30:29.150
investigations is that it is legal to import

00:30:29.150 --> 00:30:31.049
and export wildlife. It happens all the time,

00:30:31.049 --> 00:30:33.829
every day. I mean, I think the public would be

00:30:33.829 --> 00:30:37.809
astonished to know how much live wildlife is

00:30:37.809 --> 00:30:40.029
legally imported into the United States just

00:30:40.029 --> 00:30:42.410
through the Los Angeles International Airport.

00:30:42.490 --> 00:30:44.980
It's crazy. That was always pretty shocking to

00:30:44.980 --> 00:30:47.480
me. Super shocking, especially fish, aquatic

00:30:47.480 --> 00:30:50.039
animals in particular. It's by the millions every

00:30:50.039 --> 00:30:52.480
year. So it can be done legally and there are

00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:55.000
legal importers and exporters and that makes

00:30:55.000 --> 00:30:58.000
criminal investigations sometimes extremely challenging

00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:01.640
because of course the best way to smuggle is

00:31:01.640 --> 00:31:04.380
to hide it in plain sight and make it look like

00:31:04.380 --> 00:31:08.390
a legal shipment, right? Okay, so Craig was a

00:31:08.390 --> 00:31:11.269
licensed importer exporter. But at this point,

00:31:11.269 --> 00:31:13.250
it's a state investigation. How did how did it

00:31:13.250 --> 00:31:15.490
make the transition to become a federal investigation

00:31:15.490 --> 00:31:19.970
where you kind of took the lead? Well, to kind

00:31:19.970 --> 00:31:24.450
of go back just a little bit. I remember hearing

00:31:24.450 --> 00:31:31.690
on the news about a yacht that was carrying 50

00:31:31.690 --> 00:31:37.049
illegal immigrants from Mexico. that was apprehended

00:31:37.049 --> 00:31:41.529
by Coast Guard in the LA Harbor. And I remember

00:31:41.529 --> 00:31:45.210
hearing that on the news, of course, had no connections

00:31:45.210 --> 00:31:50.049
whatsoever to anything I was doing. But it was

00:31:50.049 --> 00:31:55.329
a lot because, you know, 50 people in a, I think

00:31:55.329 --> 00:32:00.150
it was like a 44 foot yacht. I remember there

00:32:00.150 --> 00:32:05.559
was a pregnant woman, a three year old kid. That

00:32:05.559 --> 00:32:08.880
was that was kind of a big story. Yeah. Right.

00:32:09.259 --> 00:32:11.259
On the news. And so I remember hearing about

00:32:11.259 --> 00:32:18.079
that. But I was honestly just at the office one

00:32:18.079 --> 00:32:22.660
day and somebody came in to the front window

00:32:22.660 --> 00:32:28.039
and said, can I talk to somebody about Craig?

00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:31.210
Interesting. And that's how it all started. So

00:32:31.210 --> 00:32:34.089
some informant just basically walked in and offered

00:32:34.089 --> 00:32:36.869
to give information. Yeah. And it was related

00:32:36.869 --> 00:32:38.769
to the did it turn out it was related to this

00:32:38.769 --> 00:32:44.589
yacht. So yes. OK. This is one reason why so

00:32:44.589 --> 00:32:46.630
critical when I was an agent. You were an agent.

00:32:46.829 --> 00:32:48.869
I always took those phone calls from the public

00:32:48.869 --> 00:32:50.490
and I always talk to those people who walked

00:32:50.490 --> 00:32:53.430
in the front door. Yes. You know, nine times

00:32:53.430 --> 00:32:54.890
out of 10, they're there to talk to you about

00:32:54.890 --> 00:32:58.170
nothing. But that one time. Well, this guy was

00:32:58.170 --> 00:33:02.690
a a gold mine. I mean, he had a lot of information

00:33:02.690 --> 00:33:08.329
about Craig and what he was doing and basically

00:33:08.329 --> 00:33:11.410
was, you know, asking for help. He's like, this

00:33:11.410 --> 00:33:16.410
guy is, is crazy. And he's doing a lot of illegal

00:33:16.410 --> 00:33:19.890
activity and I know it's not right and I don't

00:33:19.890 --> 00:33:22.609
want to get caught up in it. And can you help

00:33:22.609 --> 00:33:26.869
me? And so ended up signing him up as an informant

00:33:26.869 --> 00:33:30.559
and What was his motivation though? Was it just

00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:33.059
to, I mean, we don't want to give away who the

00:33:33.059 --> 00:33:36.819
informant was, but were they more concerned with

00:33:36.819 --> 00:33:39.480
Craig's committing illegal acts and I don't like

00:33:39.480 --> 00:33:41.720
it, or were they afraid they were gonna get tangled

00:33:41.720 --> 00:33:46.220
up in it somehow? You know, I don't know for

00:33:46.220 --> 00:33:51.579
sure, but honestly, out of all my years of investigating

00:33:51.579 --> 00:33:55.220
and dealing with informants and this guy was

00:33:55.220 --> 00:33:59.119
just a genuinely good guy. Okay, the best kind

00:33:59.119 --> 00:34:01.559
of informant. The one who does the best I ever

00:34:01.559 --> 00:34:04.539
dealt with. They do it out of like the goodness

00:34:04.539 --> 00:34:06.920
of their heart. That's a good informant. Usually,

00:34:07.160 --> 00:34:10.699
he wasn't a criminal. Yeah, he did what I asked

00:34:10.699 --> 00:34:15.219
him to do. He reported back to me. When I asked

00:34:15.219 --> 00:34:18.239
him to I mean, he was a dream informant. And

00:34:18.239 --> 00:34:20.300
that's unusual. That's the exception. Not the

00:34:20.300 --> 00:34:22.500
rule. Most informants are very difficult to deal

00:34:22.500 --> 00:34:26.280
with. Very unusual. Okay, so what what else would

00:34:26.280 --> 00:34:30.480
did he tell you about Craig? Well that he basically

00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:34.019
was involved in a lot of illegal activity everything

00:34:34.019 --> 00:34:39.400
from Smuggling illegal fish into the United States

00:34:39.400 --> 00:34:43.920
This guy was caught up in cocaine smuggling marijuana

00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:48.820
smuggling Wow illegal immigrants Wow smuggling

00:34:48.820 --> 00:34:52.889
Wow so true crossover. He's just Involved in

00:34:52.889 --> 00:34:54.829
criminal activity period for the money for the

00:34:54.829 --> 00:34:58.510
money. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so drugs drugs people

00:34:58.510 --> 00:35:01.230
and Fish and that's I guess the fish part is

00:35:01.230 --> 00:35:03.010
why he chose to walk into a fish and wildlife

00:35:03.010 --> 00:35:04.969
service law enforcement office, right? Yeah,

00:35:04.969 --> 00:35:09.429
it was kind of funny because Because he came

00:35:09.429 --> 00:35:12.389
to fish and wildlife we owned the case right

00:35:12.389 --> 00:35:16.269
which is amazing because And you've probably

00:35:16.269 --> 00:35:21.150
heard me talk about We were working this with

00:35:21.150 --> 00:35:24.289
Homeland Security investigations. You brought

00:35:24.289 --> 00:35:26.130
in Homeland Security after you got this tip?

00:35:26.469 --> 00:35:29.650
Yeah, because it just involved so much. Yeah,

00:35:29.650 --> 00:35:31.110
drugs and people, that'd be the agency, right?

00:35:31.110 --> 00:35:36.530
Yes. And the agent that was assigned to co -investigate

00:35:36.530 --> 00:35:42.909
with me was literally an absolute boob. I mean...

00:35:44.020 --> 00:35:47.820
He and I started thinking about this. That happens

00:35:47.820 --> 00:35:51.559
too, right? Oh my gosh. He would show up at our

00:35:51.559 --> 00:35:55.940
meetings and all disheveled and like, I think

00:35:55.940 --> 00:36:00.199
he had a drinking problem. Oh boy. And one day

00:36:00.199 --> 00:36:03.760
he came and showed up and he was, he was like,

00:36:04.030 --> 00:36:08.329
had a black eye, and he had gotten in a fight

00:36:08.329 --> 00:36:11.849
at a concert or something that he attended, and

00:36:11.849 --> 00:36:13.769
I was just like, oh my gosh. That's classic.

00:36:14.309 --> 00:36:19.630
Yeah, and so probably because it involved fish,

00:36:19.809 --> 00:36:23.190
probably their agency was like, oh, let's just

00:36:23.190 --> 00:36:26.969
give this to this guy. Right. And whatever, you

00:36:26.969 --> 00:36:30.050
know how I love 1970s police procedurals like

00:36:30.050 --> 00:36:32.170
Adam 12 and dragnet, right? Yeah, I'm a little

00:36:32.170 --> 00:36:34.969
I nerd out over those shows Yes, there's a classic

00:36:34.969 --> 00:36:37.489
line from one of the old dragnets where Joe Friday,

00:36:37.489 --> 00:36:40.090
you know he likes to give a lot of exposition

00:36:40.090 --> 00:36:44.610
in his in his dialogue and he He says something

00:36:44.610 --> 00:36:47.250
like, you know, the number one problem with law

00:36:47.250 --> 00:36:49.690
enforcement officers is they're human, right?

00:36:50.010 --> 00:36:53.039
So just like any other profession I don't know,

00:36:53.039 --> 00:36:56.400
I always put it at about 10%. I don't care where

00:36:56.400 --> 00:36:58.139
you work, if you work at a law firm or you work

00:36:58.139 --> 00:37:00.840
at Costco, about 10 % of the employees are going

00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:03.659
to be boobs. And you're kind of like, what? How

00:37:03.659 --> 00:37:06.159
do they even function? That's true for law enforcement

00:37:06.159 --> 00:37:09.860
too. We try to pick and choose the best of the

00:37:09.860 --> 00:37:14.119
best, but some boobs get through. Sometimes they

00:37:14.119 --> 00:37:17.719
become boobs later in their career. Yeah. I think

00:37:17.719 --> 00:37:22.289
eventually this guy was... either asked to resign

00:37:22.289 --> 00:37:26.989
or got fired. I'm not sure, but I ended up doing

00:37:26.989 --> 00:37:31.690
most of the investigative work on all of it.

00:37:31.969 --> 00:37:33.449
The drugs, the drugs, the people. And I mean,

00:37:33.510 --> 00:37:37.070
I think after he placed a tracking device on

00:37:37.070 --> 00:37:40.699
Craig's car. And Craig walked out the next morning

00:37:40.699 --> 00:37:43.019
and saw the wires sticking up out of the hood

00:37:43.019 --> 00:37:45.920
of the car. I think that's when, finally, they

00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:50.119
were like, OK, this is bad. Oh, that's hilarious.

00:37:50.219 --> 00:37:51.800
I don't think I knew that part of the story.

00:37:52.019 --> 00:37:54.380
That is hilarious. Did Craig take the tracker

00:37:54.380 --> 00:37:57.039
off the car? Yes. And that's the most amazing

00:37:57.039 --> 00:38:04.420
thing. Now, Craig, by all evidence, is a pretty

00:38:04.420 --> 00:38:07.780
good criminal. He sees that there's a tracker

00:38:07.780 --> 00:38:09.920
on his car. He takes it off He destroys it the

00:38:09.920 --> 00:38:12.500
debt, but that did not necessarily deter him

00:38:12.500 --> 00:38:14.599
from continuing to be a criminal. Oh, no It's

00:38:14.599 --> 00:38:16.760
amazing how brazen they are, you know, they know

00:38:16.760 --> 00:38:18.880
they're being watched. Well, they're they're

00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:20.900
greedy. They're greedy That's the bottom line.

00:38:20.920 --> 00:38:24.139
They want money exactly. So what was the fish?

00:38:24.480 --> 00:38:27.519
We've said fish, but what was it? They were called

00:38:27.519 --> 00:38:31.460
clarion angel fish and they were found down in

00:38:31.460 --> 00:38:35.059
the waters Mexican waters and Mexico protected

00:38:35.059 --> 00:38:39.639
them and Didn't allow fishing collecting of them

00:38:39.639 --> 00:38:44.239
and certainly didn't allow Exporting them to

00:38:44.239 --> 00:38:46.760
anywhere other countries. So Craig's bringing

00:38:46.760 --> 00:38:49.800
these clarion angelfish up alive alive for the

00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:53.139
pet trade I assume very expensive aquarium fish

00:38:53.139 --> 00:38:58.300
about at the time probably about $2 ,000 a piece

00:38:59.119 --> 00:39:02.300
For a aquarium fish, yeah. I'll put a picture

00:39:02.300 --> 00:39:04.820
of a clarion angelfish on the Nature's Secret

00:39:04.820 --> 00:39:09.380
Service website. But they're crazy. I don't know

00:39:09.380 --> 00:39:11.179
if it's clarion angelfish or not, but there is

00:39:11.179 --> 00:39:13.559
a species of angelfish that's found off the coast

00:39:13.559 --> 00:39:16.599
of California too. Is it clarions or no? It's

00:39:16.599 --> 00:39:20.880
a different subspecies. Yes, and I can't remember.

00:39:21.300 --> 00:39:23.659
And this is terrible. This shows how old we're

00:39:23.659 --> 00:39:27.989
getting. But yes. They're kind of like... Visually

00:39:27.989 --> 00:39:30.369
when you see one it kind of throws you because

00:39:30.369 --> 00:39:32.929
they look like a giant goldfish in the ocean

00:39:32.929 --> 00:39:36.050
and it kind of your brain kind of Has to adjust

00:39:36.050 --> 00:39:37.570
for a second and be like why is our goldfish

00:39:37.570 --> 00:39:39.449
in the ocean, right? Yeah, they're cool looking

00:39:39.449 --> 00:39:43.110
fish. They're pretty the clarion Angelfish are

00:39:43.110 --> 00:39:45.849
really pretty fish and that that's the insidious

00:39:45.849 --> 00:39:48.789
side of the aquarium trade is that all saltwater

00:39:48.789 --> 00:39:51.489
fish and corals are hard to keep alive, of course

00:39:51.489 --> 00:39:54.250
And so this ends up becoming just a revolving

00:39:54.250 --> 00:39:58.030
door of once once you introduce clarion angelfish

00:39:58.030 --> 00:40:01.150
into the market, they become popular. Other people

00:40:01.150 --> 00:40:03.210
see them and they want them. They're they're

00:40:03.210 --> 00:40:04.829
not going to stay alive very long because they're

00:40:04.829 --> 00:40:07.070
hard to keep alive. Yeah, anybody who ever had

00:40:07.070 --> 00:40:09.289
a saltwater tank knows how difficult that is.

00:40:09.670 --> 00:40:11.329
And so then there's demand for more and more

00:40:11.329 --> 00:40:14.090
and more fish, right? It's a really insidious

00:40:14.090 --> 00:40:17.849
trade. Well, and these were just so rare. Yeah.

00:40:17.849 --> 00:40:21.349
And that's what people were after. You know,

00:40:21.469 --> 00:40:23.949
nobody could get them. And so when they were

00:40:23.949 --> 00:40:27.409
available, They were people were willing to pay

00:40:27.409 --> 00:40:29.289
a lot of money for them. Do you remember how

00:40:29.289 --> 00:40:32.969
many he brought across? I was able to track about

00:40:32.969 --> 00:40:35.989
a hundred and sixty that we caught a lot of money

00:40:35.989 --> 00:40:40.150
to yeah Three hundred and sixty thousand dollars.

00:40:40.150 --> 00:40:43.190
I think is what we valued the shipment and that's

00:40:43.190 --> 00:40:44.929
just what you found That's just what we found.

00:40:44.989 --> 00:40:47.409
So who knows how many others? Yeah, and I'm quite

00:40:47.409 --> 00:40:50.210
certain there were other shipments that we didn't

00:40:50.210 --> 00:40:55.519
find but so and just so everybody's aware the

00:40:55.519 --> 00:40:58.820
Obviously we know what why it's illegal to bring

00:40:58.820 --> 00:41:02.000
drugs and and people into the country But with

00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:04.300
regard to those fish if they're protected by

00:41:04.300 --> 00:41:06.320
Mexican law and then they're brought into the

00:41:06.320 --> 00:41:09.159
United States Or in other words if they're collected

00:41:09.159 --> 00:41:11.199
in violation of Mexican law and brought into

00:41:11.199 --> 00:41:13.239
the u .s. That would you were essentially doing

00:41:13.239 --> 00:41:15.960
a Lacey act investigation, right? Right. Yeah

00:41:15.960 --> 00:41:18.820
smuggling Lacey smuggling and Lacey because he

00:41:18.820 --> 00:41:20.440
wouldn't declare them. So that's a smuggling.

00:41:20.480 --> 00:41:23.170
Yep Both felonies smuggling and Lacey actor both

00:41:23.170 --> 00:41:26.230
felonies. Yes. Okay. Cool. Yeah, you're you're

00:41:26.230 --> 00:41:29.289
off and running. And aside from your partner

00:41:29.289 --> 00:41:32.130
at HSI, who leaves something to be desired, you're

00:41:32.130 --> 00:41:34.369
on to something good. Yeah, what would you do?

00:41:34.489 --> 00:41:37.670
How'd you pursue the investigation? So a lot

00:41:37.670 --> 00:41:43.329
of it was going and interviewing getting pieces

00:41:43.329 --> 00:41:47.599
of information from the informant. going to conduct

00:41:47.599 --> 00:41:50.420
interviews, trying to validate the information

00:41:50.420 --> 00:41:55.460
that he was giving me, looking at documents,

00:41:56.079 --> 00:41:59.179
going to interview other importers who had purchased

00:41:59.179 --> 00:42:04.940
them, even some overseas people that he had,

00:42:05.059 --> 00:42:08.280
Craig had shipped them to in Japan and Hong Kong.

00:42:08.840 --> 00:42:10.900
Okay, so he'd sneak them into the US and then

00:42:10.900 --> 00:42:14.820
from the US he would smuggle them again. other

00:42:14.820 --> 00:42:19.139
countries in Asia. Yes. Yep. Meanwhile, doing

00:42:19.139 --> 00:42:21.880
all of this other illegal activity, you know,

00:42:21.940 --> 00:42:26.519
with the as it turns out, the the yacht was the

00:42:26.519 --> 00:42:30.039
all of that was coordinated by Craig. He would

00:42:30.039 --> 00:42:34.840
he hired two individuals to drive the yacht.

00:42:35.320 --> 00:42:37.980
They'd rent the yacht here in the US and they

00:42:37.980 --> 00:42:41.260
drive it down to Ensenada. Craig would arrange

00:42:41.260 --> 00:42:46.329
all of that. he'd pile on the people on the yacht.

00:42:46.809 --> 00:42:49.849
They'd drive it back up. Craig would drive through

00:42:49.849 --> 00:42:53.670
the border, meet them back up in LA and direct

00:42:53.670 --> 00:42:57.969
them where to go and to, you know, where it was

00:42:57.969 --> 00:43:02.050
safe to unload and where they wouldn't get caught.

00:43:02.289 --> 00:43:05.969
And then people would jump off of this boat.

00:43:06.409 --> 00:43:12.630
And I believe. There were four instances at least

00:43:12.630 --> 00:43:15.949
okay of this Interesting and that was all based

00:43:15.949 --> 00:43:19.809
on the individuals that we interviewed that were

00:43:19.809 --> 00:43:22.869
driving the boat She actually tracked down who

00:43:22.869 --> 00:43:25.409
he hired to drive the yeah. Oh, yeah, they were

00:43:25.409 --> 00:43:27.710
they were caught. Okay. Yeah that Coast Guard

00:43:27.710 --> 00:43:33.219
caught on that 50 person load. And so then we

00:43:33.219 --> 00:43:35.980
were working with those guys and they were charged,

00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:39.400
of course, and convicted. But they also cooperated

00:43:39.400 --> 00:43:44.039
and gave us some information on Craig. So yeah,

00:43:44.039 --> 00:43:47.940
it was crazy. And then unbeknownst to me, DEA

00:43:47.940 --> 00:43:51.340
was involved even before I got involved and had

00:43:51.340 --> 00:43:54.699
conducted a search warrant on his house. They

00:43:54.699 --> 00:43:58.820
had seized expensive watches, I think there were

00:43:58.820 --> 00:44:03.219
some Rolex watches, a bunch of evidence money.

00:44:04.760 --> 00:44:10.659
I think they see some duffel bags that had residue

00:44:10.659 --> 00:44:15.019
marijuana residue. And I don't know why he was

00:44:15.019 --> 00:44:19.139
never charged criminally for drug smuggling,

00:44:19.179 --> 00:44:22.400
but we had a lot of information. He owned an

00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:28.150
RV. And so we also think that on those yachts

00:44:28.150 --> 00:44:32.349
coming in that there were drugs right fish and

00:44:32.349 --> 00:44:36.409
people interesting and He would then take this

00:44:36.409 --> 00:44:39.590
RV load it up and drive it all across the country

00:44:39.590 --> 00:44:43.389
and drop off his loads Wow, so not just that

00:44:43.389 --> 00:44:46.869
he was He was not he was an organizer, but also

00:44:46.869 --> 00:44:49.349
distributor and very intimately involved in this

00:44:49.349 --> 00:44:53.329
business This guy had a rap sheet a mile long.

00:44:53.329 --> 00:44:58.110
No kidding. He was he had a lot going on. And

00:44:58.110 --> 00:45:01.170
you know, that kind of brings me back to, you

00:45:01.170 --> 00:45:03.150
know, the efforts you took as a rack to make

00:45:03.150 --> 00:45:05.389
sure that Fish and Wildlife Service is dialed

00:45:05.389 --> 00:45:08.269
in with other agencies. You know, this this illustrates,

00:45:08.309 --> 00:45:10.829
I think, how agencies can kind of get into I

00:45:10.829 --> 00:45:12.789
hate to use that the word silos because it's

00:45:12.789 --> 00:45:15.449
so overused now. But they do kind of get into

00:45:15.449 --> 00:45:17.989
this is our mission and we don't see beyond our

00:45:17.989 --> 00:45:20.920
mission. Right. So like, when Coast Guard stopped

00:45:20.920 --> 00:45:23.300
this boat the first time, the fish were on the

00:45:23.300 --> 00:45:28.059
boat, right? 100 plus fish? We didn't get any

00:45:28.059 --> 00:45:30.900
fish on that boat. Oh, okay. So Coast Guard wouldn't

00:45:30.900 --> 00:45:32.980
have necessarily thought to reach out to Fish

00:45:32.980 --> 00:45:34.380
and Wildlife because there was no fish on that

00:45:34.380 --> 00:45:36.659
boat. Right. How did you know that fish were

00:45:36.659 --> 00:45:39.260
coming across in the system? Based on interviews

00:45:39.260 --> 00:45:42.179
and stuff. After the fact. And the informant

00:45:42.179 --> 00:45:44.880
came in to tell you to, right? Okay, interesting.

00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:48.519
So if Coast Guard DEA wouldn't have necessarily

00:45:48.519 --> 00:45:53.139
had anything from that load that alerted them,

00:45:53.139 --> 00:45:54.739
hey, fish and wildlife ought to be looped in

00:45:54.739 --> 00:45:57.059
on this, right? Right. Gotcha. Okay. Yeah, that

00:45:57.059 --> 00:46:00.099
was strictly just a so Coast Guard probably notified

00:46:00.099 --> 00:46:03.559
DEA that they got a shit load of drugs. Yeah.

00:46:03.599 --> 00:46:05.840
And that started that but nobody nobody saw fish

00:46:05.840 --> 00:46:08.599
at that point. Correct. Got it. Got it. Okay.

00:46:09.059 --> 00:46:12.260
So then they had that scene. So this is interesting

00:46:12.260 --> 00:46:14.980
as an as a investigator, you get this informant

00:46:14.980 --> 00:46:17.880
comes in tells you this story. How long did it

00:46:17.880 --> 00:46:19.780
take you to connect it to that boat you had seen

00:46:19.780 --> 00:46:24.420
on the news? Well, pretty quickly. Okay. Yeah,

00:46:24.559 --> 00:46:27.440
because, you know, the information that the informant

00:46:27.440 --> 00:46:30.559
was giving me, you know, we knew that he was

00:46:30.559 --> 00:46:34.099
the one. Craig was the one responsible for coordinating

00:46:34.099 --> 00:46:38.559
those trips. Okay. Yeah. So it was it was pretty.

00:46:38.780 --> 00:46:41.099
So you put that together that it was this this

00:46:41.099 --> 00:46:43.619
boat you'd seen on the news was a Craig. Yeah.

00:46:44.019 --> 00:46:47.309
Okay. And then how So the informant then told

00:46:47.309 --> 00:46:49.510
you he was bringing in the clarion angelfish?

00:46:49.889 --> 00:46:54.610
Yes. Okay. And so that was through declared shipments.

00:46:54.849 --> 00:46:57.750
You know, I told you he was a licensed importer.

00:46:57.750 --> 00:47:01.190
Right. And so he was bringing in shipments of

00:47:01.190 --> 00:47:05.289
legal stuff, but then threw in these clarion

00:47:05.289 --> 00:47:09.909
angelfish as well on that on the angelfish portion

00:47:09.909 --> 00:47:12.829
of the case. We also got information that he

00:47:12.829 --> 00:47:16.019
was throwing them on the yachts as, you know,

00:47:16.119 --> 00:47:18.940
like as an afterthought. Right. Oh, here's another

00:47:18.940 --> 00:47:21.460
good way to make some extra money. Let's just

00:47:21.460 --> 00:47:24.320
throw those on the boat as well. OK, so he had

00:47:24.320 --> 00:47:26.340
multiple methods. He would do it on the boat

00:47:26.340 --> 00:47:29.179
with the drugs and the people, but also just

00:47:29.179 --> 00:47:31.940
ship them over. What would he do? Misdeclare

00:47:31.940 --> 00:47:34.500
them or just hide them among other fish? He hit

00:47:34.500 --> 00:47:39.440
him amongst other declared fish. So amongst legal

00:47:39.440 --> 00:47:42.619
stuff. Mm hmm. Yeah, going back to what we talked

00:47:42.619 --> 00:47:43.880
about at the beginning with the importance of

00:47:43.880 --> 00:47:46.239
the wildlife inspectors job, right? Yeah, they're

00:47:46.239 --> 00:47:48.820
gonna be cracking open these boxes these shipments

00:47:48.820 --> 00:47:51.760
of legal and they're gonna be comparing the paperwork

00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:53.960
declaration to what they see in the box So they

00:47:53.960 --> 00:47:56.599
have to be able to know What the species are

00:47:56.599 --> 00:47:58.639
they're looking at in that box not always easy.

00:47:59.019 --> 00:48:01.659
Yeah, and again, we talked about how much stuff

00:48:01.659 --> 00:48:05.820
comes in Yeah, and it's just You know, honestly,

00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:08.420
I hate to say it, but sometimes you're just lucky.

00:48:08.480 --> 00:48:11.920
Yeah, you happen to open the right box and boom,

00:48:12.059 --> 00:48:14.280
there's something there that that wasn't on the

00:48:14.280 --> 00:48:17.000
paperwork, right? So, you know, sometimes it's

00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:19.539
like finding a needle in the haystack. It is

00:48:19.539 --> 00:48:22.440
but you know, it's also about intelligent enforcement

00:48:22.440 --> 00:48:24.480
and inspection work. I'm not going to give away

00:48:24.480 --> 00:48:26.420
the detail on this. But you remember, we worked

00:48:26.420 --> 00:48:29.079
on a coral case together for a while. And we

00:48:29.079 --> 00:48:34.139
actually came up with a way to look at Shipments

00:48:34.139 --> 00:48:36.239
and figure out whether they were suspicious or

00:48:36.239 --> 00:48:38.239
not and I'm not gonna give any more detail But

00:48:38.239 --> 00:48:41.599
yeah, we kind of we kind of hedged our bets as

00:48:41.599 --> 00:48:43.760
to which shipments to do full inspections on

00:48:43.760 --> 00:48:47.019
because we figured out a way to identify Shipments

00:48:47.019 --> 00:48:49.639
just based on the paperwork about what was likely

00:48:49.639 --> 00:48:52.320
to have contraband in it. Yeah. Yeah, so that's

00:48:52.320 --> 00:48:55.719
all about intelligent and Using intelligence

00:48:55.719 --> 00:48:58.420
and to make smart choices about what you look

00:48:58.420 --> 00:49:01.730
at. Absolutely. Yep Yeah. You know, now that

00:49:01.730 --> 00:49:04.090
we talk about this, I do remember going with

00:49:04.090 --> 00:49:06.349
you to a few of these fish importers to look

00:49:06.349 --> 00:49:11.750
at paperwork. That was incredibly dull. Yeah.

00:49:12.110 --> 00:49:14.530
Yeah, not fun. Wasn't it to do those interviews?

00:49:14.630 --> 00:49:16.550
I was always your second, so I didn't have to

00:49:16.550 --> 00:49:18.090
interview these people. I was just there to take

00:49:18.090 --> 00:49:20.429
notes. Yeah. I do remember going with you down

00:49:20.429 --> 00:49:23.130
near LAX to some of these places. It had to be

00:49:23.130 --> 00:49:26.420
the clarion fish, angelfish case. Yeah. But I'm

00:49:26.420 --> 00:49:29.659
sure it was. Yeah. Because a lot of it was was

00:49:29.659 --> 00:49:33.699
paperwork, a paperwork trail. So how do you prove

00:49:33.699 --> 00:49:37.480
so you go back now and you're how did you find

00:49:37.480 --> 00:49:40.460
the clarion angelfish? Did you find them in in

00:49:40.460 --> 00:49:43.380
his warehouse? Or where were they? It was they

00:49:43.380 --> 00:49:46.730
he distribute. He distributed them. I can't even

00:49:46.730 --> 00:49:49.929
say that he distributed them so quickly after

00:49:49.929 --> 00:49:53.130
he got them and that's what the case was a lot

00:49:53.130 --> 00:49:56.110
of just going back and tracking and where did

00:49:56.110 --> 00:49:59.690
they go and who bought them and who sold them

00:49:59.690 --> 00:50:03.030
and so I was going to all these different places

00:50:03.030 --> 00:50:06.750
and and seizing all of these fish that these

00:50:06.750 --> 00:50:11.150
importers bought and you know a lot of the the

00:50:11.150 --> 00:50:14.380
wholesalers that purchased from him they were

00:50:14.380 --> 00:50:18.079
like, well, you know, you know, Craig had them.

00:50:18.119 --> 00:50:21.159
And so I'm just going to purchase them and thought

00:50:21.159 --> 00:50:23.280
they were off the hook. And I'm sure he told

00:50:23.280 --> 00:50:25.119
them that they were legal, probably. And they

00:50:25.119 --> 00:50:28.239
just accepted it. Yeah. So I was seizing, you

00:50:28.239 --> 00:50:30.659
know, all of these clarion angelfish all over

00:50:30.659 --> 00:50:33.860
L .A. that I could find. They some of them were

00:50:33.860 --> 00:50:37.400
in the Midwest already. Some were in New York

00:50:37.400 --> 00:50:42.260
already. Like I say, Japan, Hong Kong. So it

00:50:42.260 --> 00:50:44.960
was pretty I assume those were hard those were

00:50:44.960 --> 00:50:47.159
impossible to reach the overseas ones. Yeah.

00:50:47.539 --> 00:50:50.579
Yeah. So then how do you see then you see okay

00:50:50.579 --> 00:50:56.219
see you some how do you find that fish? So this

00:50:56.219 --> 00:50:58.739
is what even today I was an agent for 20 years

00:50:58.739 --> 00:51:01.460
that is that is a puzzle. Right? Yeah. So you

00:51:01.460 --> 00:51:04.159
have this tip. How did you find your first fish?

00:51:04.179 --> 00:51:07.139
Do you remember the first live fish at a customer?

00:51:07.719 --> 00:51:13.420
I remember And this is strange that I remember

00:51:13.420 --> 00:51:16.539
back in our warehouse and I was just looking

00:51:16.539 --> 00:51:20.559
through some of the paperwork and and again,

00:51:20.559 --> 00:51:23.500
I think it was something to do with the information

00:51:23.500 --> 00:51:26.460
that the informant gave me and I was just looking

00:51:26.460 --> 00:51:30.099
through all the paperwork and what they were

00:51:30.099 --> 00:51:32.440
declared as and what they actually were and trying

00:51:32.440 --> 00:51:35.940
to piece that together with who may have purchased

00:51:35.940 --> 00:51:38.630
them from Craig and So you're just kind of looking

00:51:38.630 --> 00:51:40.969
for suspicious sales that didn't quite look right

00:51:40.969 --> 00:51:44.210
based on looking at Manifest from declared shipments

00:51:44.210 --> 00:51:47.969
versus sales. I think that's how I did it You

00:51:47.969 --> 00:51:51.409
know trying to weed through all that paperwork

00:51:51.409 --> 00:51:55.150
and then figure out who had what and then the

00:51:55.150 --> 00:51:57.170
information from the informant about who was

00:51:57.170 --> 00:52:00.449
purchasing them and and then just going to their

00:52:00.449 --> 00:52:04.610
businesses and talking to them and having them

00:52:04.610 --> 00:52:08.320
show me the fish and then Ending up seizing them.

00:52:08.699 --> 00:52:11.780
Yep. Thank you very much. What was the reaction

00:52:11.780 --> 00:52:13.480
when you had seized fish from people? Were they

00:52:13.480 --> 00:52:15.059
pissed or did they kind of understand? Some of

00:52:15.059 --> 00:52:17.940
them were super pissed off, of course, because

00:52:17.940 --> 00:52:20.559
they paid a lot of money. And then, you know,

00:52:20.559 --> 00:52:23.280
the whole deal where I thought it was fine, you

00:52:23.280 --> 00:52:28.079
know, Craig had him and he sold him to me and,

00:52:28.440 --> 00:52:30.920
you know, but some of them were pretty smart

00:52:30.920 --> 00:52:34.179
people that probably knew more about that industry

00:52:34.179 --> 00:52:39.000
than any of us. And it was I was like, come on,

00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:43.400
you know, really? You thought this was OK. You

00:52:43.400 --> 00:52:46.500
know, so those people get charged or just take

00:52:46.500 --> 00:52:48.079
the fish from them and you called that good.

00:52:48.340 --> 00:52:51.239
Yeah, I think that's we ended up pretty good

00:52:51.239 --> 00:52:52.960
punishment. Actually, they're out the money.

00:52:53.099 --> 00:52:56.519
Yeah, we didn't charge anybody else. But in the

00:52:56.519 --> 00:52:59.800
case, the of course, the driver of the yacht,

00:53:01.340 --> 00:53:05.199
they were charged. and convicted. Oh, let me

00:53:05.199 --> 00:53:08.579
stop you there. Okay. So next question is, you've

00:53:08.579 --> 00:53:10.619
gone through the paperwork, you've recovered

00:53:10.619 --> 00:53:14.340
some fish, where'd those fish go? Remember? Yes,

00:53:14.880 --> 00:53:18.420
we donated them to the Aquarium of the Pacific.

00:53:18.579 --> 00:53:20.659
Nice. So you found a home for them. And what

00:53:20.659 --> 00:53:23.059
and I think a lot of people listening will probably

00:53:23.059 --> 00:53:24.940
say, how come you can't send them back to Mexico?

00:53:25.260 --> 00:53:28.280
There's a reason for that. And it's often very

00:53:28.280 --> 00:53:31.400
difficult to do what we call repatriate wild

00:53:31.400 --> 00:53:34.380
animals back to where they came from. Do you

00:53:34.380 --> 00:53:37.179
want to explain it? Why they can't go back often?

00:53:37.480 --> 00:53:39.800
Sometimes they can. Sometimes they can. I mean,

00:53:39.800 --> 00:53:42.880
that's always our goal. And according to the

00:53:42.880 --> 00:53:46.159
convention, that is actually what we are supposed

00:53:46.159 --> 00:53:48.639
to do. The Convention on International Trade

00:53:48.639 --> 00:53:52.400
in Endangered Species. Correct. Yeah. So but

00:53:52.400 --> 00:53:55.179
there's a lot of, you know, factors to that,

00:53:55.179 --> 00:53:59.949
you know, dealing with different international

00:53:59.949 --> 00:54:06.570
countries, paperwork, disease factor. They don't

00:54:06.570 --> 00:54:09.829
necessarily want to take back wildlife where

00:54:09.829 --> 00:54:12.989
they don't know where it's been, what it's been

00:54:12.989 --> 00:54:16.969
exposed to. So it's a lot of red tape. That's

00:54:16.969 --> 00:54:19.389
a fundamental problem with repatriating wildlife

00:54:19.389 --> 00:54:22.889
is that you're relying on the bad guy telling

00:54:22.889 --> 00:54:25.650
you where they came from, right? Often that's

00:54:25.650 --> 00:54:29.789
it, right? And that's a person who's Liar and

00:54:29.789 --> 00:54:33.090
has an incentive to lie. So the country that

00:54:33.090 --> 00:54:35.909
the animals came from it's often them that will

00:54:35.909 --> 00:54:39.929
not take the animals back because They cannot

00:54:39.929 --> 00:54:42.269
be assured that they know where to put the animals

00:54:42.269 --> 00:54:44.829
back into the wild and if they were just to put

00:54:44.829 --> 00:54:48.010
them back anywhere it could Cause disruptions

00:54:48.010 --> 00:54:50.409
by introducing disease or a parasite that was

00:54:50.409 --> 00:54:52.989
not existent in that population of fish before

00:54:52.989 --> 00:54:56.869
right? So biologists really have a hard time

00:54:56.869 --> 00:54:59.559
with it sometime. Yeah Understandably, right?

00:54:59.659 --> 00:55:02.579
I mean, if the only times I've ever seen repatriation

00:55:02.579 --> 00:55:06.079
work is when you know for sure that this is where

00:55:06.079 --> 00:55:08.699
the animals came from, and there's a really good

00:55:08.699 --> 00:55:12.679
history of what they were exposed to in transit

00:55:12.679 --> 00:55:15.340
and in between, right? I think in my career,

00:55:15.340 --> 00:55:17.539
I saw it maybe only once or twice that animals

00:55:17.539 --> 00:55:21.039
were repatriated. Not very many times. I did

00:55:21.039 --> 00:55:25.940
some birds one time, right? It's rare. Thank

00:55:25.940 --> 00:55:29.130
you. It's very Very rare. And the other aspect,

00:55:29.210 --> 00:55:33.110
too, of course, is you there's in the back of

00:55:33.110 --> 00:55:34.710
your mind, you're always worried a little bit

00:55:34.710 --> 00:55:37.530
about corruption somewhere in the chain. And

00:55:37.530 --> 00:55:39.329
you don't want these animals to get back into

00:55:39.329 --> 00:55:43.150
the into trade trade, the illegal trade. So,

00:55:43.150 --> 00:55:45.809
yeah, there's that concern, not just with U .S.

00:55:46.130 --> 00:55:48.050
officials, but foreign officials as well are

00:55:48.050 --> 00:55:50.130
worried about corruption as well. And they don't

00:55:50.130 --> 00:55:51.909
want those animals to get back into the trade.

00:55:52.860 --> 00:55:56.139
That's tough. Okay, so so you've got some fish

00:55:56.139 --> 00:55:57.739
back you found a home for them. They're gonna

00:55:57.739 --> 00:56:01.980
live and they're gonna be safe How do you how'd

00:56:01.980 --> 00:56:04.039
you how'd you like organize your charges? Who's

00:56:04.039 --> 00:56:06.139
gonna get charged and who do you talk to about

00:56:06.139 --> 00:56:10.300
getting these people charged? So luckily for

00:56:10.300 --> 00:56:13.599
me, I took this case up to the US Attorney's

00:56:13.599 --> 00:56:18.639
office and a wonderful prosecutor up there probably

00:56:18.880 --> 00:56:22.059
the best that I ever worked with. Bill Carter,

00:56:22.300 --> 00:56:25.199
William Carter. One of the best. One of the best,

00:56:25.420 --> 00:56:30.079
yes. And he took this case. And I think he was

00:56:30.079 --> 00:56:33.679
pretty interested in all of the facets of what

00:56:33.679 --> 00:56:36.699
this guy was doing. Right. He saw that it was

00:56:36.699 --> 00:56:39.019
a true criminal involved in crimes, all kinds

00:56:39.019 --> 00:56:44.000
of crimes. Yes. Right. But Bill worked in the

00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:47.420
environmental crime section at the U .S. Attorney's

00:56:47.420 --> 00:56:54.239
Office. But I think because of that HSI investigation

00:56:54.239 --> 00:57:00.260
and that agent that was working, Bill took it

00:57:00.260 --> 00:57:03.099
all on. He did the whole deal, the wildlife,

00:57:03.219 --> 00:57:06.300
the drugs, the people, all of it. He did the

00:57:06.300 --> 00:57:09.860
wildlife and the illegal immigration. Oh, they

00:57:09.860 --> 00:57:11.539
never charged for the drugs for whatever reason?

00:57:11.559 --> 00:57:16.340
The drugs were never solidified. Yeah, at least

00:57:16.340 --> 00:57:20.639
criminally. So yeah, so Bill was the one that

00:57:20.639 --> 00:57:26.159
that ended up indicting Craig on seven charges

00:57:26.159 --> 00:57:32.400
of smuggling and Lacey act, I believe and Lo

00:57:32.400 --> 00:57:35.780
and behold while we were doing all of this Craig

00:57:35.780 --> 00:57:39.900
was arrested by the state and by California Department

00:57:39.900 --> 00:57:43.079
of Fish and Wildlife. Yes, I believe so For for

00:57:43.079 --> 00:57:46.280
their case. Yes. Oh crazy. So Craig was in jail

00:57:46.440 --> 00:57:50.119
which gave us a little bit of extra time to,

00:57:50.119 --> 00:57:53.739
you know, dot our I's and cross our T's with

00:57:53.739 --> 00:57:57.599
our investigation and that illegal immigration

00:57:57.599 --> 00:58:02.860
case. And Bill ended up charging Craig on that

00:58:02.860 --> 00:58:06.119
one as well. Oh, yeah. On the, on the what one?

00:58:06.380 --> 00:58:11.619
The 50, the 50 people that were the 50 load.

00:58:11.900 --> 00:58:14.860
Awesome. So you yeah, you got a you went to grand

00:58:14.860 --> 00:58:16.940
jury federal grand jury and got a seven count

00:58:16.940 --> 00:58:20.320
indictment on him for for the Clarion angelfish

00:58:20.320 --> 00:58:23.699
and the people Yes, through you know, we were

00:58:23.699 --> 00:58:25.920
so lucky in our careers because the whole time

00:58:25.920 --> 00:58:28.619
we were agents the United States Attorney's Office

00:58:28.619 --> 00:58:32.079
So to listeners understand you always hear about

00:58:32.079 --> 00:58:34.719
the US Department of Justice, right? And there

00:58:34.719 --> 00:58:38.099
are usdoj as you know Aaron prosecutors in Washington

00:58:38.099 --> 00:58:40.960
DC and there is an environmental crimes section

00:58:40.960 --> 00:58:45.929
there at DOJ in Washington DC. But around the

00:58:45.929 --> 00:58:48.630
country, there are individual United States attorneys

00:58:48.630 --> 00:58:53.150
who have districts. And they're part of DOJ,

00:58:53.289 --> 00:58:56.550
but they're really responsible for their districts.

00:58:56.989 --> 00:58:59.289
And in Los Angeles, there's the US Attorney's

00:58:59.289 --> 00:59:01.150
Office for the Central District of California.

00:59:01.750 --> 00:59:03.829
And our whole careers, they always had their

00:59:03.829 --> 00:59:06.360
own independent. Environmental crimes section

00:59:06.360 --> 00:59:08.980
and that's not true for most US Attorney's offices

00:59:08.980 --> 00:59:11.579
around the country There's a few that have dedicated

00:59:11.579 --> 00:59:13.699
environmental crimes prosecutors, but not many,

00:59:14.260 --> 00:59:16.840
right? So we were lucky because we could go to

00:59:16.840 --> 00:59:18.860
directly go our own we didn't have to compete

00:59:18.860 --> 00:59:22.940
with the FBI or HSI or ATF or US Marshals for

00:59:22.940 --> 00:59:25.739
attention with the US attorney we could go directly

00:59:25.739 --> 00:59:28.900
to the We had our own we had our own. Yeah. Yeah,

00:59:29.099 --> 00:59:32.179
and Bill Carter was one of my favorites too in

00:59:32.179 --> 00:59:34.980
part because used to love it when you'd go into

00:59:34.980 --> 00:59:36.719
Bill Carter's office and you'd brief him about

00:59:36.719 --> 00:59:39.059
a case and the first things he'd say were like

00:59:39.059 --> 00:59:42.239
Sounds good. Let's arrest him. I loved it when

00:59:42.239 --> 00:59:44.440
he would say that because sometimes US attorneys

00:59:44.440 --> 00:59:47.440
as you know are kind of reluctant to make You

00:59:47.440 --> 00:59:49.880
know probable cause arrests or file a complaint

00:59:49.880 --> 00:59:52.199
and make an arrest. They usually they want to

00:59:52.199 --> 00:59:54.460
charge them and have them You know notified by

00:59:54.460 --> 00:59:56.900
mail and brought in I always hated that I like

00:59:56.900 --> 00:59:59.219
I like to hook people up and as you and I have

00:59:59.219 --> 01:00:01.940
said many times That's one of that first 24 hours

01:00:01.940 --> 01:00:04.519
in jail that they do is probably the worst. Yes

01:00:04.519 --> 01:00:07.139
Yes, and that's a lesson they can learn right?

01:00:08.219 --> 01:00:10.880
That's a good deterrent and bill was always on

01:00:10.880 --> 01:00:12.559
board if you had a felony that you brought him

01:00:12.559 --> 01:00:14.960
He pretty much was on board with making an arrest

01:00:14.960 --> 01:00:18.690
pretty quick. Yeah, he was he was awesome So,

01:00:18.690 --> 01:00:20.250
but you didn't have to arrest Craig because he

01:00:20.250 --> 01:00:22.489
was already in custody. He was already in custody.

01:00:22.550 --> 01:00:26.030
So that made it a little bit easier on us for

01:00:26.030 --> 01:00:28.809
sure. And what happened? Did he go to trial or

01:00:28.809 --> 01:00:30.590
what? Did he plead guilty? How did it play out?

01:00:30.789 --> 01:00:35.190
He pled guilty. Yep. He pled guilty and he was

01:00:35.190 --> 01:00:39.269
sentenced to 46 months. Wow. That's a good one.

01:00:39.449 --> 01:00:42.150
Which is pretty good for wildlife crime. That's

01:00:42.150 --> 01:00:45.269
huge. Yeah. So a little under four years. Yeah,

01:00:45.269 --> 01:00:47.250
if we can actually put people in jail for more

01:00:47.250 --> 01:00:51.010
than a year based on a wildlife crime. That's

01:00:51.010 --> 01:00:53.550
pretty darn good. 46 months is definitely one

01:00:53.550 --> 01:00:55.730
of the higher ones ever. That must have been

01:00:55.730 --> 01:00:58.789
pretty cool. That was exciting. Yeah. Early in

01:00:58.789 --> 01:01:01.550
your career, get that knocked out. Yeah, he had

01:01:01.550 --> 01:01:06.190
to pay $60 ,000 penalty as well. That was good.

01:01:06.250 --> 01:01:08.750
It was a good, good little case. Yeah, that's

01:01:08.750 --> 01:01:12.210
a great case. I love it. And deterrent, right?

01:01:12.469 --> 01:01:17.239
Yeah. And you know one of the reasons we're not

01:01:17.239 --> 01:01:18.940
mentioning Craig's last name here is because

01:01:18.940 --> 01:01:22.099
later after he finished his federal time He actually

01:01:22.099 --> 01:01:24.599
did some more state time for some type of murder,

01:01:24.619 --> 01:01:28.280
right? Oh, I second call in the sentencing hearing

01:01:28.280 --> 01:01:31.260
that he said something as he was pleading with

01:01:31.260 --> 01:01:35.440
the judge To give him a lesser sentence. He said,

01:01:35.440 --> 01:01:39.000
you know, he was so sorry and that he would never

01:01:39.000 --> 01:01:44.639
commit a crime again And then a few years later,

01:01:44.780 --> 01:01:47.739
he gets charged with involuntary manslaughter.

01:01:47.760 --> 01:01:49.780
That's what it was involuntary manslaughter.

01:01:49.980 --> 01:01:55.000
Yeah, for a diving incident off of Catalina Island.

01:01:55.099 --> 01:01:59.380
Not good. Not good. Sad. And somewhere in your

01:01:59.380 --> 01:02:02.300
case, too, there was some issue involving either

01:02:02.300 --> 01:02:04.960
a witness or somebody got beat up right mysteriously

01:02:04.960 --> 01:02:07.280
beat up that we don't know who or why or how.

01:02:07.360 --> 01:02:11.280
So our informant was going home one evening.

01:02:11.869 --> 01:02:16.510
And just out of nowhere, I think it was two guys

01:02:16.510 --> 01:02:19.750
just pummeled him. For no reason. For no reason.

01:02:19.989 --> 01:02:22.150
Didn't rob him or anything. Didn't rob him. Just

01:02:22.150 --> 01:02:26.389
beat him up at his doorstep and left him. Yeah,

01:02:26.389 --> 01:02:30.570
it was pretty scary. Suspicious. Yeah. I do remember

01:02:30.570 --> 01:02:32.309
when that happened, kind of the whole office

01:02:32.309 --> 01:02:36.469
was a little bit on alert over that. Yeah. Because

01:02:36.469 --> 01:02:38.130
you don't know who else is going to get targeted,

01:02:38.210 --> 01:02:40.809
whether it takes it to a new level for sure.

01:02:41.010 --> 01:02:43.349
Yeah. for sure. Yeah, it was it was a little

01:02:43.349 --> 01:02:45.849
bit scary because we were we were dealing with

01:02:45.849 --> 01:02:50.829
a bad guy, a really bad guy. And you'd meet him

01:02:50.829 --> 01:02:53.750
and you would, you know, he was the most charming

01:02:53.750 --> 01:02:58.050
person. You would never in a million years think

01:02:58.050 --> 01:03:00.690
of all of the terrible stuff that he had done.

01:03:00.690 --> 01:03:02.949
Yeah, put on a good show, put on a really good

01:03:02.949 --> 01:03:06.949
show. But yeah, I, I don't doubt that he was

01:03:06.949 --> 01:03:09.739
responsible for that. Interesting. Well, this

01:03:09.739 --> 01:03:12.260
for sure is not you know, the only case you ever

01:03:12.260 --> 01:03:15.940
did that was a success or or of interest But

01:03:15.940 --> 01:03:17.719
you know, this is this a cool case. This is one

01:03:17.719 --> 01:03:19.420
of those things that I remember watching and

01:03:19.420 --> 01:03:22.559
thinking You know, holy cow. How am I gonna meet

01:03:22.559 --> 01:03:25.039
the high bar that all my colleagues are setting?

01:03:25.619 --> 01:03:28.420
You know to get be early in your career and get

01:03:28.420 --> 01:03:32.059
a 46 month sentence that's pretty impressive

01:03:32.059 --> 01:03:34.920
really really cool and definitely set the tone

01:03:34.920 --> 01:03:37.940
for my whole career because as I've said before,

01:03:37.940 --> 01:03:41.780
you know Any success I ever had in my 20 years

01:03:41.780 --> 01:03:43.639
was only because I was trying to meet the high

01:03:43.639 --> 01:03:47.139
bar of all the my colleagues around me you Marie

01:03:47.139 --> 01:03:49.840
other agents around the country You know, I'm

01:03:49.840 --> 01:03:52.679
always just phenomenally impressed with the amount

01:03:52.679 --> 01:03:55.380
of work that you're willing to put in You never

01:03:55.380 --> 01:03:57.980
give up, you know federal agents are some of

01:03:57.980 --> 01:04:01.039
the most dogged investigators I've ever seen

01:04:01.039 --> 01:04:03.940
you know, and it's really true what they say

01:04:03.940 --> 01:04:06.940
about federal officers and then special agents

01:04:06.940 --> 01:04:10.079
that you know if you're committing a crime, and

01:04:10.079 --> 01:04:12.699
one of them is on your tail, you're done. They

01:04:12.699 --> 01:04:14.940
will get you. Yeah, there's no question about

01:04:14.940 --> 01:04:17.239
it. Right. But it's not easy. It's not easy.

01:04:17.440 --> 01:04:21.539
And I think that's why, you know, you know, special

01:04:21.539 --> 01:04:27.039
agents really are recruited from a broad variety

01:04:27.039 --> 01:04:29.119
of backgrounds. You know, I was talking to Keith

01:04:29.119 --> 01:04:31.519
Swindle about this in an episode. And, you know,

01:04:31.519 --> 01:04:33.639
we have biologists, we have lawyers, we have

01:04:33.639 --> 01:04:36.039
former police officers, former game wardens.

01:04:36.860 --> 01:04:40.460
All kinds of people former wildlife inspectors,

01:04:40.460 --> 01:04:43.699
you know, what you major in in college Administration

01:04:43.699 --> 01:04:46.019
of justice. Yeah, so the criminal justice type

01:04:46.019 --> 01:04:49.099
background, right? But we have biologists We

01:04:49.099 --> 01:04:51.219
have people all types of different backgrounds

01:04:51.219 --> 01:04:53.920
and they all come to this career because they

01:04:53.920 --> 01:04:56.880
want to do this job and they care Boy, when you

01:04:56.880 --> 01:04:59.300
turn somebody like that loose who's well educated

01:04:59.300 --> 01:05:02.739
as a diverse background Well trained at the Federal

01:05:02.739 --> 01:05:05.840
Law Enforcement Training Center If you're a crook

01:05:05.900 --> 01:05:10.019
Watch out. That's exactly right. That's exactly

01:05:10.019 --> 01:05:12.840
right. The last thing I want to talk to you about

01:05:12.840 --> 01:05:15.460
is this really cool thing. I don't know if you

01:05:15.460 --> 01:05:18.159
would consider it kind of like the, you know,

01:05:18.320 --> 01:05:21.420
your Keystone accomplishment or not, but for

01:05:21.420 --> 01:05:24.039
years and years and years when we were agents,

01:05:24.500 --> 01:05:26.880
it wasn't just me and you. Marie talked about

01:05:26.880 --> 01:05:29.460
it. Other agents talked about it. We have this

01:05:29.460 --> 01:05:32.059
unique situation among law enforcement agencies

01:05:32.059 --> 01:05:35.539
or officers that A lot of times the wildlife

01:05:35.539 --> 01:05:39.420
or the illegal item that we seize, clarion angelfish

01:05:39.420 --> 01:05:43.320
is an example. It's alive, right? Our evidence

01:05:43.320 --> 01:05:47.880
is often alive. And that creates huge challenges

01:05:47.880 --> 01:05:51.559
for us. You know, I know this happened to you

01:05:51.559 --> 01:05:54.239
too. I remember one time arresting somebody at

01:05:54.239 --> 01:05:57.179
LAX for smuggling live parrots. She had two of

01:05:57.179 --> 01:06:00.239
them strapped to her body. I rested her probably

01:06:00.239 --> 01:06:03.969
around 10, 30, 11 at night. So my first obligation

01:06:03.969 --> 01:06:07.590
is to take her to the jail, right? And then after

01:06:07.590 --> 01:06:10.530
that, I now have to get this evidence taken care

01:06:10.530 --> 01:06:13.989
of. But this evidence breathes, needs water,

01:06:14.409 --> 01:06:17.570
needs proper housing, you know, it needs to be

01:06:17.570 --> 01:06:19.889
evaluated to see if it's been injured, all those

01:06:19.889 --> 01:06:22.250
things. And now we're talking about by the time

01:06:22.250 --> 01:06:24.670
she's booked into jail, I'm back at the office

01:06:24.670 --> 01:06:27.420
at 1230 at night. trying to figure out how to

01:06:27.420 --> 01:06:29.420
care for two parrots. Yeah, I don't know anything

01:06:29.420 --> 01:06:32.860
about that. And not to mention the disease factor

01:06:32.860 --> 01:06:34.960
disease fact you have to take into account as

01:06:34.960 --> 01:06:37.179
well, especially with birds, especially with

01:06:37.179 --> 01:06:40.699
birds and more so now back then. That was 2011.

01:06:40.699 --> 01:06:43.400
For me, bird flu wasn't an issue. But now if

01:06:43.400 --> 01:06:47.059
you seize a live bird off of somebody, you know,

01:06:47.159 --> 01:06:49.139
there's other times when we arrested people for

01:06:49.139 --> 01:06:51.679
smuggling birds coming in from Vietnam where

01:06:51.679 --> 01:06:55.659
we put on the full Tyvek suit and respirators

01:06:55.659 --> 01:07:01.050
before we search that person. Yeah, and monkeys,

01:07:01.389 --> 01:07:07.449
primates. Only one thing worse than a bird smuggling

01:07:07.449 --> 01:07:10.010
call, and that's a primate smuggling call. Yep,

01:07:10.269 --> 01:07:12.449
I agree 100%. Although I'm not a reptile fan,

01:07:12.510 --> 01:07:15.469
so I would put reptiles up there. I would rather

01:07:15.469 --> 01:07:17.909
handle a bird and get bitten by a bird any day

01:07:17.909 --> 01:07:23.630
than get bitten by a reptile. And the reptiles

01:07:23.630 --> 01:07:28.280
can be poisonous. So this is an issue and it's

01:07:28.280 --> 01:07:31.480
something we always talked about is we have in

01:07:31.480 --> 01:07:33.760
Denver, the Fish and Wildlife Service has a huge

01:07:33.760 --> 01:07:36.579
facility known as the Wildlife Repository, but

01:07:36.579 --> 01:07:41.079
it's all items. It's dead animals and the repositories

01:07:41.079 --> 01:07:44.480
where we send items we seize and it's stored

01:07:44.480 --> 01:07:47.039
there and used either for future investigations

01:07:47.039 --> 01:07:49.539
or it's destroyed or it's kept for educational

01:07:49.539 --> 01:07:52.739
purposes. But they're easy, super easy. Yeah.

01:07:52.800 --> 01:07:54.860
Yep. You seize something is to seize a tiger

01:07:54.860 --> 01:07:57.579
pelt. And you basically could just like sign

01:07:57.579 --> 01:08:00.460
some paperwork and you FedEx it off to the wildlife

01:08:00.460 --> 01:08:04.019
repository in Denver. And you're good for your

01:08:04.019 --> 01:08:07.119
case. Yeah. But with live wildlife, little different.

01:08:07.340 --> 01:08:08.760
Yeah, little different. Not only are you taking

01:08:08.760 --> 01:08:10.820
care of your prisoner and dealing with all the

01:08:10.820 --> 01:08:12.659
legal requirements for getting them before a

01:08:12.659 --> 01:08:15.239
judge, but you're trying to find a place that

01:08:15.239 --> 01:08:17.520
can properly care for these exotic animals you

01:08:17.520 --> 01:08:19.939
just seized it. hugely challenging. We've always

01:08:19.939 --> 01:08:22.520
bitched about it as agents, inspectors to been

01:08:22.520 --> 01:08:25.279
like, how come the service does not have a system

01:08:25.279 --> 01:08:28.100
for dealing with live confiscated animals? It's

01:08:28.100 --> 01:08:31.220
always just kind of good luck, agent, who do

01:08:31.220 --> 01:08:33.039
you know? What numbers do you have in your phone?

01:08:33.060 --> 01:08:35.340
Do you know anybody at the LA Zoo? Great column,

01:08:35.340 --> 01:08:39.039
right? And so and not to mention the fact that

01:08:39.039 --> 01:08:40.619
you know, that's your evidence and that's your

01:08:40.619 --> 01:08:43.619
evidence. Yep. So you have to make sure it's

01:08:43.619 --> 01:08:47.260
all tracked properly and exactly chain of custody.

01:08:48.380 --> 01:08:51.279
means solid and and you can't put it in an evidence

01:08:51.279 --> 01:08:53.500
room or an evidence cage because it's alive.

01:08:53.640 --> 01:08:55.899
It has to be cared for often by people who are

01:08:55.899 --> 01:08:58.000
very highly trained in caring for that particular

01:08:58.000 --> 01:09:01.079
animal. So yeah, it's got to be a zoo. You can't

01:09:01.079 --> 01:09:03.060
just give it to your next door neighbor and say

01:09:03.060 --> 01:09:04.859
take care of this bird for me for the next six

01:09:04.859 --> 01:09:09.579
months. Right. So you are the only person who

01:09:09.579 --> 01:09:12.239
just decided I'm going to tackle this problem.

01:09:12.750 --> 01:09:14.829
And when you were the resident agent in charge,

01:09:14.949 --> 01:09:16.170
and I know you're humble, so you're gonna try

01:09:16.170 --> 01:09:18.210
to give credit to lots of other people, and that's

01:09:18.210 --> 01:09:22.170
a bunch of baloney. While you were the resident

01:09:22.170 --> 01:09:24.609
agent in charge in Southern California, you were

01:09:24.609 --> 01:09:27.970
like, we gotta solve this problem. And you kind

01:09:27.970 --> 01:09:33.109
of pioneered this concept of developing a, what

01:09:33.109 --> 01:09:35.989
is this, the live wildlife confiscation network.

01:09:36.109 --> 01:09:40.090
Is that the right word for it? and you put together

01:09:40.090 --> 01:09:42.390
all the right stakeholders and you got them all

01:09:42.390 --> 01:09:45.789
in the right room, most of them, ACA accredited

01:09:45.789 --> 01:09:48.670
zoos and other organizations that are accredited

01:09:48.670 --> 01:09:51.170
for taking care of animals. Tell us about that

01:09:51.170 --> 01:09:53.350
process. Like how did this idea come to you and

01:09:53.350 --> 01:09:55.949
how did the whole Wildlife Confiscation Network

01:09:55.949 --> 01:09:58.310
get started? Because it is a thing now it exists.

01:09:58.449 --> 01:10:01.670
Yeah, yeah, it is pretty cool. It's very cool.

01:10:01.909 --> 01:10:08.640
Yeah. We worked me and another gentleman at the

01:10:08.640 --> 01:10:11.359
San Diego Zoo were the ones that spearheaded

01:10:11.359 --> 01:10:17.739
this honestly. And we got in one room, we got

01:10:17.739 --> 01:10:23.199
the space down at the zoo. And we got everyone

01:10:23.199 --> 01:10:25.520
together in this one room. And it was pretty

01:10:25.520 --> 01:10:29.920
amazing. And it was it was zoos. It was nonprofit

01:10:29.920 --> 01:10:34.689
organizations. It was sanctuaries. It was anyone

01:10:34.689 --> 01:10:42.409
that had a finger in live wildlife and You know,

01:10:42.510 --> 01:10:46.130
sometimes these people Disagree with each other

01:10:46.130 --> 01:10:48.770
in the way that they care for wildlife or what

01:10:48.770 --> 01:10:52.529
they do with it or where they take it and so

01:10:52.529 --> 01:10:56.670
I I was a little bit scared, you know getting

01:10:56.670 --> 01:11:01.050
all these people in one room Because I thought

01:11:01.050 --> 01:11:03.640
you know Fights were gonna break out, you know,

01:11:03.739 --> 01:11:05.560
not his fights, but you know, I thought there

01:11:05.560 --> 01:11:08.600
was gonna be some big disagreements and Quite

01:11:08.600 --> 01:11:14.960
the contrary it was It was really amazing how

01:11:14.960 --> 01:11:19.260
everybody there put aside their differences and

01:11:19.260 --> 01:11:22.699
Knew that law enforcement had a problem placing

01:11:22.699 --> 01:11:29.420
these wildlife live wildlife evidence Specimens

01:11:29.420 --> 01:11:35.609
if you will And we came up with a plan to help

01:11:35.609 --> 01:11:39.470
agents and inspectors when they seized live animals.

01:11:39.670 --> 01:11:42.430
That's very cool. Yeah. And it ended up being

01:11:42.430 --> 01:11:45.210
kind of adopted by the AZA, right? The Association

01:11:45.210 --> 01:11:47.449
of, what is it? Zoos and Aquariums. Zoos and

01:11:47.449 --> 01:11:52.710
Aquariums, yeah. And so any AZA affiliated zoo

01:11:52.710 --> 01:11:56.170
is really kind of folded into this network, right?

01:11:57.010 --> 01:11:59.510
Some of them. If they want to be. Yeah, some

01:11:59.510 --> 01:12:02.890
are. Yes, some art. Yeah, but I've heard from,

01:12:02.890 --> 01:12:05.050
you know, agents and inspectors around the country,

01:12:05.050 --> 01:12:07.229
you know, like in Denver, where, you know, the

01:12:07.229 --> 01:12:09.630
Denver Zoo, I think is part of that network now.

01:12:09.770 --> 01:12:13.569
And it's just amazing that they it's it's not

01:12:13.569 --> 01:12:16.130
who, you know, now it's it's there's a number

01:12:16.130 --> 01:12:18.029
there's a there's a mechanism for getting this

01:12:18.029 --> 01:12:20.229
done. And the ACA, I think, has even hired a

01:12:20.229 --> 01:12:22.510
coordinator for this, right? Yes. Yep. There's

01:12:22.510 --> 01:12:26.890
a national coordinator for this. So it's it's

01:12:26.890 --> 01:12:30.199
really amazing. I got it kicked off. And then

01:12:30.199 --> 01:12:36.039
I retired in 2021. And then so it was just established

01:12:36.039 --> 01:12:39.319
first in Southern California. Right. Trial. Yeah.

01:12:40.140 --> 01:12:44.260
But then after I retired, it blossomed into a

01:12:44.260 --> 01:12:47.140
national program. And you know, it was done by

01:12:47.140 --> 01:12:49.319
the time you retired. It was done. It was just

01:12:49.319 --> 01:12:51.979
like the logistics of putting it into play and

01:12:51.979 --> 01:12:53.859
hiring that coordinator and doing that sort of

01:12:53.859 --> 01:12:56.859
thing. Yeah. It's it wouldn't happen without

01:12:56.859 --> 01:12:59.680
you, Aaron. You're very humble, but I'm telling

01:12:59.680 --> 01:13:01.279
you, it wouldn't have happened without you. It

01:13:01.279 --> 01:13:03.460
just wouldn't have. I don't know why, but Fish

01:13:03.460 --> 01:13:06.359
and Wildlife Service higher ups were not pushing

01:13:06.359 --> 01:13:08.880
it like you were. You knew who to put in the

01:13:08.880 --> 01:13:12.640
room. You knew how to work those sometimes conflicts

01:13:12.640 --> 01:13:17.100
between different groups or interests. And, you

01:13:17.100 --> 01:13:20.960
know, as far as I'm concerned, that's a huge

01:13:20.960 --> 01:13:23.840
thing. In 20 years of my career, I never had

01:13:23.840 --> 01:13:26.539
that ability. It was all just who I knew at the

01:13:26.539 --> 01:13:30.449
zoos, right? So it has a huge benefit forever

01:13:30.449 --> 01:13:34.750
on that any agent or wildlife inspector who miraculously

01:13:34.750 --> 01:13:37.130
is able to utilize this network to find a home

01:13:37.130 --> 01:13:39.310
quickly for a live animal that's an evidence

01:13:39.310 --> 01:13:41.770
item. Yeah. You know, they'll never know to thank

01:13:41.770 --> 01:13:45.109
you, but they have you to thank for that. It's

01:13:45.109 --> 01:13:47.890
awesome. Well, thanks, Ed. Of course. It really

01:13:47.890 --> 01:13:51.770
came to light when we seized that live tiger

01:13:51.770 --> 01:13:54.770
cub at the border. Interesting. OK. That's when

01:13:54.770 --> 01:13:57.989
I was like, whoa. That was like 2015 or 16, I

01:13:57.989 --> 01:14:00.930
think, right? I can't remember the year quite

01:14:00.930 --> 01:14:04.689
honestly, but it was it was a headache, you know,

01:14:04.810 --> 01:14:09.409
trying to find a home for a live tiger cub. It's

01:14:09.409 --> 01:14:12.470
that's a big deal. You just don't take those

01:14:12.470 --> 01:14:17.569
things to anyone. No, no. And that that's really

01:14:17.569 --> 01:14:20.850
it was I mean, I always realized it was a problem

01:14:20.850 --> 01:14:24.640
when we see live wildlife, live cobras. Oh, my

01:14:24.640 --> 01:14:27.260
gosh. Sometimes in the more common stuff, it's

01:14:27.260 --> 01:14:30.920
actually harder to place. Yeah. Yes. True. Ball

01:14:30.920 --> 01:14:34.340
pythons and things like that. Very true. And,

01:14:34.380 --> 01:14:36.159
you know, of course, we talked about the birds

01:14:36.159 --> 01:14:38.760
and the primates and everything. But, you know,

01:14:38.819 --> 01:14:43.119
what I wanted to focus on was let the agent,

01:14:43.600 --> 01:14:47.220
let the inspector do their work with what they

01:14:47.220 --> 01:14:50.479
are supposed to be doing by charging these people.

01:14:51.130 --> 01:14:54.869
bringing in this illegal stuff and let's have

01:14:54.869 --> 01:14:58.750
a process where the live evidence is maintained.

01:14:58.750 --> 01:15:02.449
And if needed, it's it's all there. It's all

01:15:02.449 --> 01:15:05.029
there. But the the individual law enforcement

01:15:05.029 --> 01:15:07.529
officers not bogged down with dealing with that

01:15:07.529 --> 01:15:10.810
care and that placement. Exactly. When they should

01:15:10.810 --> 01:15:14.130
be working on the case to charge that person,

01:15:14.270 --> 01:15:17.310
right? Yeah. Awesome. Yeah, fantastic. Thanks.

01:15:17.630 --> 01:15:20.569
Yeah, really cool. Aaron, I can't tell you how

01:15:20.569 --> 01:15:23.329
much I appreciate you coming on to talk to us.

01:15:23.430 --> 01:15:29.430
Pushing through your. It's great to have you

01:15:29.430 --> 01:15:31.630
on the show. I wouldn't have dead nice podcast

01:15:31.630 --> 01:15:33.989
without you being one of my guests and I'm going

01:15:33.989 --> 01:15:36.010
to twist your arm and have you back sometime.

01:15:36.989 --> 01:15:38.930
But thank you so much for being on and telling

01:15:38.930 --> 01:15:41.909
the great story and great job on everything you

01:15:41.909 --> 01:15:45.239
did in your career. How many years? 29? 29 29

01:15:45.239 --> 01:15:47.399
years of service to the to the people of the

01:15:47.399 --> 01:15:50.039
United States. That's thank you. That's impressive.

01:15:50.359 --> 01:15:52.399
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, Ed. All right, Aaron, you're

01:15:52.399 --> 01:15:56.140
one of my faves. Oh, same. All right, everybody.

01:15:56.279 --> 01:15:59.100
Thank you for joining us. I'm Ed Newcomer. This

01:15:59.100 --> 01:16:00.899
is Nature's Secret Service. We'll see you next

01:16:00.899 --> 01:16:04.140
time. Nature's Secret Service is written and

01:16:04.140 --> 01:16:06.720
produced by me, Ed Newcomer, and is co produced

01:16:06.720 --> 01:16:10.319
by the DHTV team here at California State University

01:16:10.319 --> 01:16:12.869
Dominguez Hills. Follow us on social media and

01:16:12.869 --> 01:16:15.170
connect with us online at naturessecretservice

01:16:15.170 --> 01:16:15.750
.com.