WEBVTT

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If you want to learn more about the topics of

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today's episode, visit the podcast website at

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naturessecretservice .com. Thanks for listening.

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OK, people, listen up. Here we go. This is Nature's

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Secret Service, the podcast that puts you in

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the room with the men and women of wildlife law

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enforcement. I'm your host, Ed Newcomer, and

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today our guest is former Fish and Wildlife Special

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Agent Steve Stowinski coming to us from his home

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in Wyoming. Steve has a lot of prior experience

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as a wildlife law enforcement officer. having

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worked for the states of both Wisconsin and Utah.

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As an agent with US Fish and Wildlife Service,

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he spent time assigned to duty stations in Colorado,

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Wisconsin, Alaska, and Wyoming. Steve, welcome

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to the show. I appreciate you being on. It's

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great to have you. Thank you, Ed. Good to see

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you again. Hey, listen. I know you served in

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the US Army for a while before you went to college.

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You were airborne, right? No, they didn't. I

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didn't sign up that long. What was your what

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did you do in the army? My job was a combat engineer.

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So, okay, mine demolitions and things like that.

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Very cool, very cool. But after after your service,

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you went to Southern Illinois University, where

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I think you actually designed your own major,

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isn't that right? That's correct. I started there

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in forestry and quickly learned that was the

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study of growing and cutting trees down. And

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they had convinced me to take that major, but

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my goal all along was to be a game warden, a

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wildlife officer. And I realized that wasn't

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the best academic vehicle for it. So luckily

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I had a professor who was my counselor in forestry

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and he had worked for the refuge system for the

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Fish and Wildlife Service. And I told him what

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I wanted to do. And he suggested that I probably

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should switch degrees and go into wildlife management

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or criminal justice. And I'm like, I want it

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to be a game warden. A biologist was narrow and

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a cop was narrow. And then we came upon this

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special major program that Southern Illinois

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offered. And with him and the help of two other

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professors from wildlife management and criminal

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justice. We designed a four -year degree specifically

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for conservation officers and we called it conservation

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law enforcement. So at graduation it was kind

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of lonely. I was the only student in the row

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for that program, but it was a neat academic

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vehicle because I got to combine the disciplines

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of forestry, what I had, criminal justice, wildlife

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management, public relations, and then criminal

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law. It was a cool degree. That's awesome. And

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you know, I think it shows, you know, how committed

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you were to this career. Even before you became,

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you know, a state officer, even in college, you

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were looking to, you know, educate yourself about

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how can I get the best education to become the

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best wildlife law enforcement officer I can,

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which is... That's pretty phenomenal. I teach

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here at California State University at Dominguez

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Hills, and I teach criminal justice. And I know

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it always strikes me that there's, of course,

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wildlife crime is just like any other crime.

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So criminal justice courses work, but there's

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so many unique aspects to being a wildlife law

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enforcement officer that a specific major specifically

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designed for people that want to pursue that

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career is a Pretty valuable thing. Kudos to you

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for putting that together. That's pretty cool.

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Oh, thanks for saying so. It stuck out when I

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applied for jobs, that's for sure. I'll bet.

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I'll bet. And is that something that the university

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continued after you left? I mean, could other

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people go to Southern Illinois University and

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pursue that degree? Great question. After I left

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and I'd been in the field for, I don't know,

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three or four years, I got a call from the Criminal

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Justice Department. And they asked me how it

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worked out. And I said, fantastic, actually.

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And they said, because they, well, let me tell

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you this part. When I tried to get the major

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set up, the criminal justice folks were kind

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of like opposed to me doing this because they

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wanted to declare me as their student. Right,

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of course. So I went to the dean of the school

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that the criminal justice department was housed

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in. He was an avid fisherman. And I told him

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what I wanted to do. And these guys were roadblocking

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me at criminal justice. And he says, I got a

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bigger bulldozer than they do, or his exact words.

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He says, we're going to add this to the curriculum

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here at Southern Illinois. So they did. So it

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was added to the school catalog. And when I got

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a call three or four years later asking me how

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it was going and did it help? Would I change

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anything? And when I asked why, he says, because

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we've got about 20 students enrolled in that

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program. I'm still waiting to meet somebody who

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actually did that degree, though. I haven't run

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into that person yet. So I always ask people

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when I meet them, like when I was working or

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even now, where they went to school. I'm always

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hoping to find that SIU grad that had the same

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degree I did. That is so cool. You'll find them.

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Eventually, you'll find them, I'm sure. Maybe

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through this podcast, somebody that went through

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that program will hear it and reach out to me

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and I'll put you guys in touch. That would be

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great. That would be cool. I just think that's

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awesome. I've often thought about developing,

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trying to develop specific courses focusing on

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wildlife crime or wildlife criminal procedure

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or something similar to that. So you and I need

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to talk more offline, right? You spent some time

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as a state officer for different states. And

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the titles are always different. So as our listeners

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know, a lot of our guests on this show are former

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special agents with US Fish and Wildlife Service,

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so federal agents. But we have had, and we will

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have, some state wildlife officers on. And the

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easiest way to explain the difference is a state

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wildlife officer, whether the title is conservation

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officer, wildlife officer, conservation warden,

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or game warden, They're basically the state police

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for that state that focuses on wildlife crime.

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And the easiest way to explain the relationship

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between them and the US Fish and Wildlife Service

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is to compare it to, say, the state police in

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some whatever state with the FBI. It's kind of

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the relationship. Is that kind of? jive with

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your understanding. I think you got it right

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on there. And you were, you worked in Wisconsin

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as a state officer for a while. How many years

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did you do that? I had six in Utah. I was only

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there in Wisconsin for less than a half a year

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because I got picked up by the feds. For some

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reason, I thought you were Wisconsin first, then

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Utah, then the feds, but it was the reverse.

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You were Utah, Wisconsin, and then US Fish and

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Wildlife hired you, right? That's correct. I

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don't know why I had that reversed. It's another

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interesting aspect to being a federal agent is

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the cutoff age to become a federal agent is 37.

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You have to enter the federal academy honor before

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your 37th birthday. But at the same time, most

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federal law enforcement agencies do not hire

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people straight out of college. It's pretty rare.

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They want you to have a demonstrated professional

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resume before they'll hire you. It ends up kind

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of a narrow window. How old were you when you

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got hired? I just made it. I was 37, almost 37.

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I was right behind you. There was a, I had applied

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a couple of times and got told that very thing

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that you just said that, you know, get more experience,

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but keep applying because it was such a competitive

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job. So, um, I was, I just turned 33 when I got

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hired. Yeah. So, you know, that's a Like you,

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I applied multiple times before I got even an

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interview to be a US Fish and Wildlife Service

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Special Agent. So you're kind of like biting

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your fingernails. Like, oh my gosh, because between

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like federal hiring freezes and just the fact

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that they don't hire new agents every year, you're

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always kind of biting your nails. Like, am I

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going to make it, right? Yeah, right. To that

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note, you know, one of the first conservation

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officers I met in Illinois, I had asked him if

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I, you know, what I would have to do to be a

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conservation officer. And my mom was in the kitchen.

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He was doing an investigation on a taxidermist,

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and he came to talk to us about our records.

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So my mom's like, my son would love to be a game

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warden. What does he have to do? And he looked

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at my mom, and he looked at me. I was about 16

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or 17. He said, well, ma 'am, do you have any

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political connections? And my mom's like, no.

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And he looks at me and says, hey, kid, forget

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it. You're never going to get that job unless

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you've got some politicians helping you. I was

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deflated. And after I got out of the army, I'd

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gotten a scholarship from the state of Illinois

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as a veteran. And I showed it to my dad when

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he came home from work and my folks were blue

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collar people, you know. didn't go to college

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and I showed my dad this letter and he says you're

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going to take advantage of this I hope I said

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I don't know what I do he goes well you always

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want to be a game warden I said well remember

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that game warden said you need to know some politicians

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and like one in a million people get the job

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he got he got mad and he's 55 he got out of his

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chair sat next to me on the couch put his arm

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around he said you know Every dad thinks this

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of their son, I'm sure. You're one in a million.

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Why don't you just try and see what happens?

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Here I am talking to you. How many years later

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is a retired federal game warden? So anybody

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who's out there listening, and if they're interested

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in this profession, don't let anybody tell you

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different. It can be done. So this is fantastic.

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Yep. You know what? That is 100 % my experience

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as well. I'm not shy about telling people I applied.

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I applied four times to be a Fish and Wildlife

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Special Agent before I even got an interview.

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And yeah, there were there were a lot of people

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that were like, you know, you're I was a lawyer

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at the time. And they're like, you're a lawyer,

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you're not going to be a federal wildlife law

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enforcement officer. And I was like, Yeah, I'm

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gonna so what I'm gonna try. I'm gonna try my

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hardest. You know, you don't you don't give up.

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And if something interests you, you just keep

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at it until the right people. see your resume

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and see the passion that you have for the job,

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right? No matter what the job is. And I think

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in part two, it just shows that deep commitment

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of people like yourself that really want to be

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here to do something for the resource. And that's

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what, and that's what the resource needs people

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to champion them. So, yeah. Yeah. I mean, whatever

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profession you're in, but in particular, I think

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public service, you got to have a passion for

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that work if you want to be good at it, you know?

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Exactly. And Steve, you and I over our careers,

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we work together a lot, just to talk a lot. We,

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we share a lot of the same opinions about, you

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know, how the job ought to be done and how public

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service ought to be done and what it takes to

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be a good public servant. I always enjoy talking

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to you about it. So, you know, I got to back

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up though. I don't know why to this whole army

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thing. You told me, you told me once that when

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you were in the, I think basic training, you

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were like, in the next barracks over from another

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future fish and wildlife special agent named

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Dirk Hoy. And I think that's what, was that why

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I think you were in the airborne? I don't know

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why I had that in my head. Dirk was airborne,

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wasn't he? He was, I know we had the same job,

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combat engineering. Yeah, it was amazing when

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Dirk ended up in Idaho when I was here in Wyoming.

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And he was helping me with the Grizzly case,

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in fact. And we got to talking, because I didn't

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get to spend a lot of time with him. But on that

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case, we did. And it was unbelievable how parallel

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our lives had been to get to where we were at.

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And we got to talking about being in the military

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and the same job description and the time frame.

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And I was like an alpha company. And he was,

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I think, a Bravo company, which They do what

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Alpha Company started, let's say on January 1st.

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Bravo Company started on January 7th. So we're

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like a week apart. It was phenomenal that we

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were marching up and down the same, you know,

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roads and same courses, everything, a week behind

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each other. Isn't that crazy? Yeah, it's amazing.

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It's such a, such a weird small world sometimes,

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isn't it? Yeah. Okay. Now that, now I'm getting

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to the bottom of it because I think I always

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assumed Dirk was airborne because he, he was

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injured on a parachuting in France. Okay, so

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that's how I don't know why maybe I always that's

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how the whole anyway. So speaking of grizzly

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bears, you brought up grizzly bears, one of the

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last places, you know, as a special agent for

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Fish and Wildlife Service, you had really interesting

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career, you worked in some difficult places,

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you worked in some fun places, you were assigned

00:13:42.960 --> 00:13:45.870
to Colorado for a while. Wisconsin as an agent,

00:13:46.330 --> 00:13:48.730
but you spent a lot of time up in Alaska working

00:13:48.730 --> 00:13:51.230
as what we called an you're an agent, but you're

00:13:51.230 --> 00:13:53.850
also an agent pilot, which means you were certified

00:13:53.850 --> 00:13:56.289
to fly planes for the Fish and Wildlife Service,

00:13:56.429 --> 00:13:59.090
which is, you know, invaluable up there in Alaska.

00:13:59.350 --> 00:14:01.289
I got to hand it to you. We're not going to talk

00:14:01.289 --> 00:14:05.750
about Alaska today, but I was as an agent. One

00:14:05.750 --> 00:14:08.669
of the places I never wanted to go was Alaska

00:14:08.669 --> 00:14:12.129
because it's the laws up there. regarding Native

00:14:12.129 --> 00:14:16.730
Alaskans are so complicated. I just never wanted

00:14:16.730 --> 00:14:19.590
to do it. I was admired. Any agent that was willing

00:14:19.590 --> 00:14:21.690
to go up there to Alaska and deal with the issues

00:14:21.690 --> 00:14:27.590
you guys dealt with was pretty incredible. Your

00:14:27.590 --> 00:14:30.070
last duty station, though, was in what Lander,

00:14:30.210 --> 00:14:33.039
Wyoming, is now, right? That's right. Yeah, and

00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:35.519
that is right in the heart of grizzly bear country.

00:14:35.899 --> 00:14:38.340
So today, we're going to talk about grizzly bear

00:14:38.340 --> 00:14:41.600
cases, which can be a little bit controversial.

00:14:43.659 --> 00:14:45.799
And I want you to fill in the gaps for me here,

00:14:45.799 --> 00:14:47.639
I'm going to give a very rough background to

00:14:47.639 --> 00:14:50.360
grizzly bears in the US and you fill in the gaps

00:14:50.360 --> 00:14:53.220
for me. But basically, just so our listeners

00:14:53.220 --> 00:14:57.679
know, the grizzly bear is a bear native to the

00:14:57.679 --> 00:15:00.820
United States. It was pretty much found throughout

00:15:00.820 --> 00:15:05.059
the Western United States up until the 1900,

00:15:05.480 --> 00:15:08.820
you know, turn of century in 1900. Even California

00:15:08.820 --> 00:15:11.480
had grizzly bears as far down as the Los Angeles

00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:15.179
area early, you know, in the 1800s. But by, you

00:15:15.179 --> 00:15:18.240
know, early 1900s, the grizzly bear was almost

00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:21.120
what they call extirpated from the lower 48 states.

00:15:21.179 --> 00:15:22.899
Of course, there are grizzly bears in Alaska.

00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:27.799
And so basically almost extinct or removed from

00:15:27.799 --> 00:15:31.059
the lower 48 states. There was only a few pockets

00:15:31.059 --> 00:15:33.399
of grizzly bear, wild grizzly bear populations

00:15:33.399 --> 00:15:37.440
left. The greater Yellowstone area there and

00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:41.480
maybe a few in northern Idaho and Montana. So

00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:44.320
they were listed as threatened under the U .S.

00:15:44.460 --> 00:15:47.340
Endangered Species Act and then a whole federal

00:15:47.340 --> 00:15:49.700
recovery program started and they got federal

00:15:49.700 --> 00:15:55.669
protection. At this point, grizzly bears as of

00:15:55.669 --> 00:15:59.789
about 2017, I think have met the recovery thresholds

00:15:59.789 --> 00:16:02.149
under the US Fish and Wildlife Service guidelines.

00:16:03.629 --> 00:16:06.330
But given what has happened with wolves now that

00:16:06.330 --> 00:16:10.159
wolves have been delisted and states. Some of

00:16:10.159 --> 00:16:12.220
the states have taken over management and have

00:16:12.220 --> 00:16:15.440
basically just allowed massive killings of wolves

00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:18.899
wanting to take them down to the bear minimum

00:16:18.899 --> 00:16:21.220
numbers to keep them from being relisted by the

00:16:21.220 --> 00:16:23.200
Fish and Wildlife Service. I think there's a

00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:25.539
reluctance to delist the grizzly bear because

00:16:25.539 --> 00:16:27.799
they're afraid the states are going to allow

00:16:27.799 --> 00:16:31.399
massive hunting of grizzly bears. So for now,

00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:35.450
even though they've met you know, recovery threshold

00:16:35.450 --> 00:16:38.210
numbers, they're still listed under the Endangered

00:16:38.210 --> 00:16:40.649
Species Act as threatened and given federal protection.

00:16:41.350 --> 00:16:43.129
Does that about sum it up, Steve, or did I miss

00:16:43.129 --> 00:16:44.730
anything? You're much more of a grizzly expert

00:16:44.730 --> 00:16:47.129
than I am. No, that was a good summary based

00:16:47.129 --> 00:16:50.730
on the Fish and Wildlife Services management

00:16:50.730 --> 00:16:55.149
of grizzly bears. And I would add this to it

00:16:55.149 --> 00:16:57.929
that roughly if people are wondering, well, how

00:16:57.929 --> 00:17:01.070
many bears do we have in the lower 48? It's just

00:17:01.070 --> 00:17:06.220
under 2 ,000. And they're in the upper western

00:17:06.220 --> 00:17:10.599
states, Idaho, Montana, parts of Washington and

00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:15.579
Wyoming. So that's it. And interestingly, when

00:17:15.579 --> 00:17:18.579
bears got captured here, like nuisance bears

00:17:18.579 --> 00:17:21.519
that got into trouble in town or on livestock,

00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:24.079
they're always looking for places to take them

00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:27.420
because bears are pretty territorial. I always

00:17:27.420 --> 00:17:29.480
thought we should be shipping a few to California

00:17:29.480 --> 00:17:31.579
seeing you guys had it on your flag down there.

00:17:31.880 --> 00:17:34.140
You guys might want a few representatives of

00:17:34.140 --> 00:17:36.480
the species in your state again. I don't know

00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:39.660
if that would have gone over very well. Yeah,

00:17:39.839 --> 00:17:42.180
you know, I'd be all for it. And believe it or

00:17:42.180 --> 00:17:44.240
not, you know, people think of California as

00:17:44.240 --> 00:17:47.099
a fairly congested place. But there are parts

00:17:47.099 --> 00:17:50.119
of northern and northeastern California that

00:17:50.119 --> 00:17:53.640
are extremely remote and very rugged. In fact,

00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:56.240
I think there are four wolf packs now that have

00:17:56.240 --> 00:17:59.619
naturally migrated into the state and Yeah, northern,

00:17:59.619 --> 00:18:01.960
California is perfect habitat for supporting

00:18:01.960 --> 00:18:05.680
big big predators without too much human conflict

00:18:05.680 --> 00:18:08.859
So, you know, I don't know not might not be impossible.

00:18:08.859 --> 00:18:10.799
There's even wolverines show up in California

00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:15.259
every once in a while You know it so there's

00:18:15.259 --> 00:18:16.940
more to this grizzly bear thing and we'll talk

00:18:16.940 --> 00:18:20.799
about it more as we go on It can be controversial

00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:23.420
because of course grizzly bears are apex predators

00:18:23.420 --> 00:18:27.079
and That greater Yellowstone area has become

00:18:27.079 --> 00:18:29.420
more and more populated over the years as grizzly

00:18:29.420 --> 00:18:32.160
bear numbers have recovered Human numbers have

00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:34.660
increased in that area. There's a lot of you

00:18:34.660 --> 00:18:37.559
know homes going up than the you know Jackson

00:18:37.559 --> 00:18:40.259
Hole area south of Yellowstone National Park

00:18:40.259 --> 00:18:43.460
There's homes in east of the park going up and

00:18:43.460 --> 00:18:45.359
as that happens more and more people are having

00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:48.200
conflict with these apex predators which sometimes

00:18:48.509 --> 00:18:52.990
will prey on domestic animals, particularly agricultural

00:18:52.990 --> 00:18:56.990
animals like calves from cattle, cattle and calves,

00:18:58.009 --> 00:19:01.950
sheep and lambs, llamas, that type of thing.

00:19:01.970 --> 00:19:06.089
And there's always this conflict between particularly

00:19:06.089 --> 00:19:09.789
cattle ranch or ranchers in general and apex

00:19:09.789 --> 00:19:12.930
predators in these remote areas. So there's a

00:19:12.930 --> 00:19:15.109
lot of nuances to this. Steve and I are going

00:19:15.109 --> 00:19:17.529
to talk about them today. But let's start off.

00:19:17.589 --> 00:19:19.589
We'll get into those issues as we talk, Steve,

00:19:19.630 --> 00:19:21.750
because I did do some research on some numbers

00:19:21.750 --> 00:19:24.430
that I think will be helpful. But let's talk

00:19:24.430 --> 00:19:29.190
specifically about a particular grizzly bear

00:19:29.190 --> 00:19:32.910
case you handled called the barber point grizzly

00:19:32.910 --> 00:19:37.599
case. You remember that case, right? I do. Was

00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:39.819
that one of the last cases you handled as an

00:19:39.819 --> 00:19:43.579
agent before you retired? Let me put it this

00:19:43.579 --> 00:19:46.220
way. It was the first case I handled when I transferred

00:19:46.220 --> 00:19:49.880
to Wyoming. Oh, even better. Yeah, it was just

00:19:49.880 --> 00:19:53.799
ongoing for four years to finally get to closure.

00:19:54.660 --> 00:19:56.980
As many of our cases do, they can take a while.

00:19:58.329 --> 00:20:01.609
There's reasons for that, but most of it is the

00:20:01.609 --> 00:20:04.769
defendants involved. It was just, they made it.

00:20:04.849 --> 00:20:09.289
It was a challenge. So yeah. Yeah. And so what

00:20:09.289 --> 00:20:11.950
a crazy way to get indoctrinated into working

00:20:11.950 --> 00:20:13.970
in Wyoming, right? You've got this grizzly bear

00:20:13.970 --> 00:20:17.069
case. And when we say grizzly bear case, basically,

00:20:17.730 --> 00:20:19.210
because they're listed as threatened under the

00:20:19.210 --> 00:20:20.950
Endangered Species Act, they fall within the

00:20:20.950 --> 00:20:22.829
jurisdiction of the U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

00:20:23.889 --> 00:20:26.630
It's prohibited to kill them or take them, as

00:20:26.630 --> 00:20:30.170
the law defines it. And so anytime that happens,

00:20:30.369 --> 00:20:32.970
even if it's in self -defense, a US Fish and

00:20:32.970 --> 00:20:35.470
Wildlife Service agent will generally investigate

00:20:35.470 --> 00:20:37.829
to determine whether or not the self -defense

00:20:37.829 --> 00:20:41.190
was justified or whether or not it was an intentional

00:20:41.190 --> 00:20:43.470
take of a protected species, which would be a

00:20:43.470 --> 00:20:46.890
crime under the Endangered Species Act. So you

00:20:46.890 --> 00:20:50.369
dropped your feet right into the fire on the

00:20:50.369 --> 00:20:53.490
Barber Point grizzly bear case. Let's talk about

00:20:53.490 --> 00:20:55.769
so so tell us about what what happened. What

00:20:55.769 --> 00:20:59.690
was the situation with this bear up at the barber

00:20:59.690 --> 00:21:04.569
point area? OK, first of all, I can't understate

00:21:04.569 --> 00:21:08.849
the importance that it is to work with state

00:21:08.849 --> 00:21:12.250
agencies that have to manage grizzly bears as

00:21:12.250 --> 00:21:14.990
well. The Wyoming Game and Fish Department, in

00:21:14.990 --> 00:21:17.890
particular, an officer there named Brian to bolt

00:21:17.890 --> 00:21:21.980
is he was just. a fabulous resource for me to

00:21:21.980 --> 00:21:25.160
work with here when I got here. And I think the

00:21:25.160 --> 00:21:27.119
world of Brian and I think the public does too

00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:29.839
and he has a tough job managing grizzlies in

00:21:29.839 --> 00:21:33.779
a western state with a lot of agriculture. And

00:21:33.779 --> 00:21:37.700
then the field wardens, Brian was what they call

00:21:37.700 --> 00:21:46.039
a large carnivore wildlife game warden. So He

00:21:46.039 --> 00:21:48.240
had called me and he said that they had received

00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:51.140
a complaint from a married couple who had found

00:21:51.140 --> 00:21:55.400
a dead grizzly bear off of the Barber Point Road

00:21:55.400 --> 00:21:59.200
up in Dubois. It's still part of Fremont County

00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:02.319
where Lander's located. This bear was dead about

00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:05.079
120 yards off the road and that's kind of all

00:22:05.079 --> 00:22:09.839
we knew. And so Brian and I planned to meet the

00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:11.299
complainants up there and they could show us

00:22:11.299 --> 00:22:14.849
now. For those who haven't been in this part

00:22:14.849 --> 00:22:17.789
of the world, there's a mountain range between

00:22:17.789 --> 00:22:19.930
here and the Grand Teton, it's called the Wind

00:22:19.930 --> 00:22:22.670
River Mountain Range. And there's a pass that

00:22:22.670 --> 00:22:25.970
crosses over to there called Togarty Pass. And

00:22:25.970 --> 00:22:27.990
where this bear was killed is probably a couple

00:22:27.990 --> 00:22:30.329
miles from this pass that drops down into the

00:22:30.329 --> 00:22:32.890
Teton Valley. So this is about 9 ,000 feet that

00:22:32.890 --> 00:22:38.490
we're talking. It's in the fall. And this road,

00:22:38.650 --> 00:22:41.869
this Barbers Point Road, It's not the kind of

00:22:41.869 --> 00:22:44.690
road that you can do 70 on. It's a two track

00:22:44.690 --> 00:22:47.650
road that you go about five or 10 miles an hour

00:22:47.650 --> 00:22:49.950
on, because it's just a two track road going

00:22:49.950 --> 00:22:53.190
through the national forest. And that's, it's

00:22:53.190 --> 00:22:57.230
not a, and this, where this road goes, this Barbers

00:22:57.230 --> 00:23:00.250
Point Road, it's pretty narrow and wooded and

00:23:00.250 --> 00:23:03.349
then some open meadows and stuff. So it's, it's

00:23:03.349 --> 00:23:05.150
a two track road in the middle of the national

00:23:05.150 --> 00:23:10.369
forest, so. So we had met this married couple

00:23:10.369 --> 00:23:13.450
up there who had seen it, and they took us to

00:23:13.450 --> 00:23:18.329
it. And interesting about this, the reason they

00:23:18.329 --> 00:23:21.190
saw the bear was on what we call a cache. And

00:23:21.190 --> 00:23:24.529
a cache is a situation where there's some kind

00:23:24.529 --> 00:23:27.130
of dead animal, and the bearers like to hoard

00:23:27.130 --> 00:23:29.690
it. So they try to hide it by covering it up

00:23:29.690 --> 00:23:32.670
with dirt, leaves, and debris. And this bear

00:23:32.670 --> 00:23:36.819
was dead right on top of this cache. you could

00:23:36.819 --> 00:23:40.180
see it down from this barbers point road. And

00:23:40.180 --> 00:23:42.500
the reason they had went there is because people

00:23:42.500 --> 00:23:45.579
in the nearby town called Dubois had been talking

00:23:45.579 --> 00:23:48.339
about this bear on this elk carcass that was

00:23:48.339 --> 00:23:50.619
there. And people were going up to drive the

00:23:50.619 --> 00:23:54.740
road just to see the bear. So this couple went

00:23:54.740 --> 00:23:56.660
up there to go see the bear when they got there

00:23:56.660 --> 00:23:59.599
was laying dead on top of the cache. You know,

00:23:59.799 --> 00:24:02.180
this is interesting because I think a lot of

00:24:02.180 --> 00:24:05.720
times Some not a lot of sometimes we think that

00:24:05.720 --> 00:24:08.079
the people in Wyoming are anti grizzly bear that

00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:10.059
they don't like them But there are a lot of people

00:24:10.059 --> 00:24:12.720
in Wyoming who enjoy seeing grizzly bears in

00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:15.460
the wild, right? I mean that this bear even though

00:24:15.460 --> 00:24:17.859
it was a wild bear it was sitting on this cached

00:24:17.859 --> 00:24:21.859
of dead elk and Like you said people were Actively

00:24:21.859 --> 00:24:23.700
going up there just to watch it, right? They

00:24:23.700 --> 00:24:26.180
were wanted to be wildlife watchers and see this

00:24:26.180 --> 00:24:30.329
cool bear doing its thing, right? exactly Okay,

00:24:30.349 --> 00:24:32.970
so this couple goes up there to see this bear

00:24:32.970 --> 00:24:36.769
and they find out it's dead. So you get called

00:24:36.769 --> 00:24:39.829
because it's a potential crime. You don't know

00:24:39.829 --> 00:24:41.970
why the bear is dead, but what did you find when

00:24:41.970 --> 00:24:46.069
you got up there? So we responded, and when I

00:24:46.069 --> 00:24:49.529
say we, it took a village to get this part done.

00:24:49.950 --> 00:24:52.970
Let me explain this. When you go into a grizzly

00:24:52.970 --> 00:24:55.670
kill site, even if there's a dead bear there,

00:24:56.450 --> 00:24:59.839
worse if the bear is wounded. I'll track this

00:24:59.839 --> 00:25:02.700
thing down. It's not a job you want to do yourself

00:25:02.700 --> 00:25:06.480
and and you describe them as an apex predator

00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:09.920
and They don't know that they're sharing the

00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:12.440
food chain top with us. They think they're at

00:25:12.440 --> 00:25:16.200
the top And it's pretty ominous going through

00:25:16.200 --> 00:25:19.900
a willow stand looking for injured grizzly And

00:25:19.900 --> 00:25:22.740
it's even ominous going into a site where there's

00:25:22.740 --> 00:25:26.640
a dead bear and the reason being Bears will eat

00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:29.440
anything, especially in the fall. They have that

00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:31.559
hyperphasia period where they just go on a feeding

00:25:31.559 --> 00:25:34.259
frenzy. So we didn't go alone. It wasn't just

00:25:34.259 --> 00:25:37.039
me or Brian DeBolt. We brought the local warden,

00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:39.460
Brian Baker, and then a couple forest service

00:25:39.460 --> 00:25:41.799
guys, one in particular, Dirk Schalfant. He was

00:25:41.799 --> 00:25:44.160
a ranger for the forest service. So there's four

00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:46.720
or five of us that went in to go into this Grizzly

00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:50.599
kill site. And the reason is we figured we'd

00:25:50.599 --> 00:25:53.380
have to do a field necropsy, which is an autopsy

00:25:53.380 --> 00:25:56.369
for animals. And you got to go in there and do

00:25:56.369 --> 00:25:58.509
this. And while some people are working on it

00:25:58.509 --> 00:26:00.730
with their heads down, paying attention to what

00:26:00.730 --> 00:26:03.049
they're doing, you needed other people to stand

00:26:03.049 --> 00:26:05.269
guard in case another bear came in and decided

00:26:05.269 --> 00:26:09.450
to feed on the cached elk in this case, or even

00:26:09.450 --> 00:26:12.849
scavenge the grizzly bear, which they do. So

00:26:12.849 --> 00:26:15.950
we wanted to do this crime scene to see if there

00:26:15.950 --> 00:26:18.549
was a crime committed. And we didn't know what

00:26:18.549 --> 00:26:20.730
people were doing. And I'm sorry to interrupt

00:26:20.730 --> 00:26:23.589
you again, but this is just so people understand.

00:26:24.009 --> 00:26:26.529
This is basically like a murder investigation.

00:26:26.809 --> 00:26:31.230
The bear is dead. You don't know why yet. But

00:26:31.230 --> 00:26:34.349
it could be a crime occurred. So the techniques

00:26:34.349 --> 00:26:38.109
you're using are really very similar to what

00:26:38.109 --> 00:26:40.609
a homicide detective would do. You've got to

00:26:40.609 --> 00:26:42.609
do a full crime scene and figure out what happened.

00:26:42.670 --> 00:26:44.650
The only difference is, of course, because the

00:26:44.650 --> 00:26:47.230
bear is so big, you're going to do the necropsy,

00:26:47.289 --> 00:26:49.450
which is an animal autopsy, like you said, out

00:26:49.450 --> 00:26:51.369
in the field rather than taking it somewhere,

00:26:51.430 --> 00:26:56.289
which is would be a big effort and I do want

00:26:56.289 --> 00:26:59.109
to add to this I was on a couple of when I worked

00:26:59.109 --> 00:27:01.890
in Africa I was on a couple of crime scenes involving

00:27:01.890 --> 00:27:05.450
rhinos and elephants and the same thing is true

00:27:05.450 --> 00:27:08.549
there when you go out you maybe have two three

00:27:08.549 --> 00:27:11.089
officers doing the crime scene investigation

00:27:11.089 --> 00:27:13.930
and then you have probably five or six with you

00:27:13.930 --> 00:27:16.930
who were have shotguns or rifles who are basically

00:27:16.930 --> 00:27:18.750
protecting you from the predators who are out

00:27:18.750 --> 00:27:20.930
there like you know in Africa you might be doing

00:27:20.930 --> 00:27:22.809
a crime scene like you said with your head down

00:27:22.809 --> 00:27:25.849
there could be lions coming in to feed on this

00:27:25.849 --> 00:27:28.490
crime scene that you're trying to process and

00:27:28.490 --> 00:27:30.849
that's true in Wyoming Montana as well you might

00:27:30.849 --> 00:27:32.950
have another grizzly bear coming in or a black

00:27:32.950 --> 00:27:36.250
bear to feed on this elk or this dead bear and

00:27:36.250 --> 00:27:38.750
you can't be hovered over it with your head down

00:27:38.750 --> 00:27:41.849
or you could become the next victim Now that's

00:27:41.849 --> 00:27:43.769
what we had in common with our comrades over

00:27:43.769 --> 00:27:47.089
in Africa, you know, can you have souls standing

00:27:47.089 --> 00:27:50.970
guard with other predators lurking? Yeah, exactly

00:27:50.970 --> 00:27:54.470
So you now you're up there you're gonna do a

00:27:54.470 --> 00:27:57.670
crime scene on this stinky dead bear What what

00:27:57.670 --> 00:28:00.289
happened? What'd you find out? So we did in fact

00:28:00.289 --> 00:28:03.150
find the bear was on top of a cache and it had

00:28:03.150 --> 00:28:05.869
It was laying on top and the complaintants found

00:28:05.869 --> 00:28:09.349
it and when animals die they bloat in the stomach

00:28:09.799 --> 00:28:12.039
starts to get big so the bear actually rolled

00:28:12.039 --> 00:28:15.019
off the cache on its side and its legs are sticking

00:28:15.019 --> 00:28:19.940
up in the air and What we had found once we did

00:28:19.940 --> 00:28:23.819
the necropsy that we did find a bullet hole and

00:28:23.819 --> 00:28:27.799
The bullet had entered in through the right side.

00:28:27.880 --> 00:28:32.569
Let's see refresh my memory here the bullet had

00:28:32.569 --> 00:28:35.690
entered in from the behind the bear on the left

00:28:35.690 --> 00:28:38.490
side it traveled through the bear's body and

00:28:38.490 --> 00:28:42.210
it stopped on the right side like on the outside

00:28:42.210 --> 00:28:45.150
the shoulder but stuck against the skin so it

00:28:45.150 --> 00:28:48.230
didn't go all the way through and we were able

00:28:48.230 --> 00:28:51.269
to get the bullet with the aid of a metal detector

00:28:51.269 --> 00:28:54.250
we knew it had a bullet in it so then we dissected

00:28:54.250 --> 00:28:56.410
it got the bullet out and we could tell that

00:28:56.410 --> 00:29:00.690
it was a 30 caliber bullet and Okay, then we

00:29:00.690 --> 00:29:03.430
could see the bullet path going through it. So

00:29:03.430 --> 00:29:07.250
for the purposes of a crime We knew that we had

00:29:07.250 --> 00:29:11.430
a dead bear and right now that it was shot. It's

00:29:11.430 --> 00:29:15.309
still it It meets the first step. It violates

00:29:15.309 --> 00:29:17.670
the Endangered Species Act. It's a grizzly bear

00:29:17.670 --> 00:29:20.990
that's protected but there's in some exceptions

00:29:20.990 --> 00:29:24.690
to killing a grizzly bear and in defense of oneself

00:29:24.690 --> 00:29:28.309
a bear can be killed but my experience doing

00:29:28.309 --> 00:29:31.579
these you know, defensive life cases, whether

00:29:31.579 --> 00:29:34.279
as a bear, a wolf, not that we had any of those,

00:29:34.380 --> 00:29:36.140
or a mountain lion when I was a state guy that

00:29:36.140 --> 00:29:38.839
people were afraid of. Most of these animals

00:29:38.839 --> 00:29:41.579
are shot head on. They're not shot from behind

00:29:41.579 --> 00:29:44.319
like this bear was and then shot from behind

00:29:44.319 --> 00:29:46.809
and then traveled through the to the front of

00:29:46.809 --> 00:29:49.869
the bear's body and stop on the shoulder. So

00:29:49.869 --> 00:29:52.349
we had a bullet. So now we have a crime scene

00:29:52.349 --> 00:29:54.789
for sure. We know that this bear was killed and

00:29:54.789 --> 00:29:56.990
it wasn't killed in defense of anybody's life

00:29:56.990 --> 00:30:00.490
at this point if it was shot from behind. So

00:30:00.490 --> 00:30:04.470
didn't add up. So we treated the... the woods

00:30:04.470 --> 00:30:07.410
like a crime scene. We spread out and we found

00:30:07.410 --> 00:30:10.230
some footprints. We found some tire tracks. We

00:30:10.230 --> 00:30:13.569
ended up finding some shell casings in the area,

00:30:13.950 --> 00:30:18.710
some ATV tracks going down the hill from Barber

00:30:18.710 --> 00:30:22.470
Point Road down to the kill site. And yeah, that's

00:30:22.470 --> 00:30:25.329
all we've got. And we collected that evidence

00:30:25.329 --> 00:30:28.730
just to see if it would be related later. So

00:30:28.730 --> 00:30:32.779
and we had, you know, I got to say this. In all

00:30:32.779 --> 00:30:34.819
the years I've done this from the very first

00:30:34.819 --> 00:30:37.259
year and you come to a crime scene like that

00:30:37.259 --> 00:30:39.839
and you know no Grizzlies are going to come out

00:30:39.839 --> 00:30:42.299
and say hey somebody just shot my cousin here

00:30:42.299 --> 00:30:45.940
or my mom or anything you don't have family members

00:30:45.940 --> 00:30:49.539
to go interview so I've always thought this and

00:30:49.539 --> 00:30:51.880
I don't maybe I'm weird, but I always like thought

00:30:51.880 --> 00:30:55.039
to myself in my head I wish I was a time traveler

00:30:55.039 --> 00:30:57.480
so I could just see what happened here, you know,

00:30:57.519 --> 00:31:01.680
yeah or That's not possible. So I think in my

00:31:01.680 --> 00:31:04.019
head I hope the game warden gods give us a few

00:31:04.019 --> 00:31:05.980
breaks in this case so we can figure out what

00:31:05.980 --> 00:31:10.319
happened and You know, you hope that somehow

00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:12.460
you can put this together to figure out why this

00:31:12.460 --> 00:31:16.259
bear was killed Yeah, you know that is exactly

00:31:16.259 --> 00:31:19.019
right. I mean is when a crime like this happens

00:31:19.019 --> 00:31:22.920
out in the wilderness There are no animals can't

00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:25.200
call you there's no witness among the animal

00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:26.980
world who's gonna call you and give you a tip,

00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:30.200
right? Yes, these are tough cases to solve and

00:31:30.200 --> 00:31:33.200
and and you do have to hope that the adage is

00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:35.680
true that God loves game wardens So you have

00:31:35.680 --> 00:31:38.039
to hope that something comes up because you you

00:31:38.039 --> 00:31:39.980
walk away with pretty good evidence But you know

00:31:39.980 --> 00:31:42.730
in the end Steve You got some bullet casings.

00:31:42.750 --> 00:31:46.210
You got some tire tracks. You got a bullet fragment

00:31:46.210 --> 00:31:48.549
out of the bear. You know what direction the

00:31:48.549 --> 00:31:51.930
bear was shot from. But all of that, footprints,

00:31:52.910 --> 00:31:54.789
none of that is valuable unless you have something

00:31:54.789 --> 00:31:57.210
to compare it to. If you've got tire tracks,

00:31:57.230 --> 00:31:58.970
you got to find a car to compare it to. If you

00:31:58.970 --> 00:32:01.250
have footprints, you got to find a shoe. If you

00:32:01.250 --> 00:32:03.430
have a bullet casing or a bullet, you got to

00:32:03.430 --> 00:32:06.549
find a gun. And so now, yeah, you walk away from

00:32:06.549 --> 00:32:07.910
your crime scene, you got pretty good stuff.

00:32:07.990 --> 00:32:10.900
But now what? What do you do next? you know and

00:32:10.900 --> 00:32:13.960
uh it's hunting season it's the fall it's beautiful

00:32:13.960 --> 00:32:17.380
in the mountains um fortunately we the forest

00:32:17.380 --> 00:32:20.460
service agent that was with us jerk chalfant

00:32:20.460 --> 00:32:23.900
very good public relations guy in his community

00:32:23.900 --> 00:32:27.319
and he had heard that who killed the elk that

00:32:27.319 --> 00:32:30.200
the bears were feeding on there and they took

00:32:30.200 --> 00:32:33.289
the usable portions of the elk and left part

00:32:33.289 --> 00:32:35.150
of the carcass there, the skin, the hide, and

00:32:35.150 --> 00:32:37.769
the rib cage. And the bears were feeding on that.

00:32:37.789 --> 00:32:39.789
So we knew who that was. So we tracked this guy

00:32:39.789 --> 00:32:42.690
down, thinking, it's not uncommon for people

00:32:42.690 --> 00:32:46.130
to hunt over a former kill site for coyotes or

00:32:46.130 --> 00:32:47.829
some other predator. And we thought, oh, this

00:32:47.829 --> 00:32:50.529
is a good tip. Let's go talk to this guy. So

00:32:50.529 --> 00:32:52.650
we tracked this guy down. He was very helpful.

00:32:53.450 --> 00:32:55.849
After the interview, didn't suspect that he was

00:32:55.849 --> 00:32:58.970
involved. He had an affinity for bears. He had

00:32:58.970 --> 00:33:02.589
seen bears on that little carcass. watched him,

00:33:02.609 --> 00:33:04.329
took pictures. He said there were a couple different

00:33:04.329 --> 00:33:07.049
bears coming in and out of that feed site. And

00:33:07.049 --> 00:33:09.769
then one day it was cached, and he hadn't seen

00:33:09.769 --> 00:33:12.430
the dead bear yet. So that was a good tip. And

00:33:12.430 --> 00:33:15.269
then we go back to praying to the game warden

00:33:15.269 --> 00:33:20.670
gods. We don't have any suspects. But moving

00:33:20.670 --> 00:33:23.809
this along, the game warden gods did give us

00:33:23.809 --> 00:33:27.039
a break. So, Brian Baker, the game warden in

00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:29.480
Dubois calls up and says, hey, I just got a call

00:33:29.480 --> 00:33:33.759
from a guy. He was in a bar here in Dubois and

00:33:33.759 --> 00:33:37.460
this guy named Kelly Grove was in the bar, whooping

00:33:37.460 --> 00:33:40.259
it up and talking about this bear up there at

00:33:40.259 --> 00:33:43.740
Barbers Point and started bragging about shooting

00:33:43.740 --> 00:33:48.819
it. Perfect. He's telling this story. And Kelly

00:33:48.819 --> 00:33:51.539
Grove is a colorful character, to say the least.

00:33:51.740 --> 00:33:55.099
Every other word is the F -bomb. And he's telling

00:33:55.099 --> 00:33:57.680
the spare. And he hates grizzly bears. And he

00:33:57.680 --> 00:34:01.559
may let it be known in the bar that he had no

00:34:01.559 --> 00:34:03.960
affinity for the bears. And he talked about coming

00:34:03.960 --> 00:34:07.240
up on the spare. Told a very detailed story about

00:34:07.240 --> 00:34:09.940
how he came up on it while he was elk hunting.

00:34:10.199 --> 00:34:14.480
The bear charged him and Bluff charged him. and

00:34:14.480 --> 00:34:18.639
he fired four shots with a 300 wind mag and killed

00:34:18.639 --> 00:34:21.400
the bear. But he also said prior to that, he

00:34:21.400 --> 00:34:24.000
had actually seen the bear on another day, and

00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:26.440
him and a friend went up there, and he was bragging

00:34:26.440 --> 00:34:29.239
about how they taunted the bear from Barbers

00:34:29.239 --> 00:34:32.239
Point Road to get some cool footage of it, like

00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:34.500
bluff charging. They were filming wrongs with

00:34:34.500 --> 00:34:37.579
the bear, and in that same general area is where

00:34:37.579 --> 00:34:41.869
we found these 10 millimeter shell casings. Maybe

00:34:41.869 --> 00:34:44.750
he was, you know, and when he was bragging in

00:34:44.750 --> 00:34:47.130
the bar, he was talking about, he had a 10 millimeter

00:34:47.130 --> 00:34:49.570
with him in case he couldn't kill the bear with

00:34:49.570 --> 00:34:52.730
a rifle. Okay. His friends, his friends are like,

00:34:52.730 --> 00:34:55.090
Kelly, man, you shouldn't be telling this story

00:34:55.090 --> 00:34:57.550
in the bar. There's lots of people around. And

00:34:57.550 --> 00:35:00.369
the person who had called the game warden, God

00:35:00.369 --> 00:35:03.670
loved this guy. He turned on his recorder and

00:35:03.670 --> 00:35:06.530
recorded on his phone and recorded the whole

00:35:06.530 --> 00:35:10.380
conversation. Nice. So we got a recorded. Basically

00:35:10.380 --> 00:35:13.320
a confession of our confession from Kelly Grove

00:35:13.320 --> 00:35:16.659
saying he shot the bear on Barbers Point Road

00:35:16.659 --> 00:35:19.159
Interesting, but he was claiming to the he was

00:35:19.159 --> 00:35:21.440
bragging to the bar that he bait He was hinting

00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:23.219
that he shot it and self -defense sounds like

00:35:23.219 --> 00:35:25.340
though, huh? Yeah, he threw that and there were

00:35:25.340 --> 00:35:28.079
that story and yeah, but he also wove in how

00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:30.199
he taunted this bear and he knew the bears in

00:35:30.199 --> 00:35:33.900
the area and of course, he spewed a lot of hate

00:35:33.900 --> 00:35:35.940
about Grizzlies and thought the best bear was

00:35:35.940 --> 00:35:39.440
a dead bear and kill them all and Now what, you

00:35:39.440 --> 00:35:42.340
know, explain that a little bit. So let's get

00:35:42.340 --> 00:35:44.980
into the controversy a little. Why do people,

00:35:45.380 --> 00:35:49.139
there is a group of people in Wyoming, Montana

00:35:49.139 --> 00:35:50.960
and the western states where grizzlies occur.

00:35:52.219 --> 00:35:53.760
There are a lot of people who like to go watch

00:35:53.760 --> 00:35:55.940
them, take photos of them, see them in the wild,

00:35:55.960 --> 00:35:57.900
but there are these people that like have this

00:35:57.900 --> 00:36:01.980
weird, intense hatred of grizzlies. Why is that?

00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:04.420
Why do people hate grizzlies up there that do?

00:36:05.739 --> 00:36:09.000
Having done this for 30 years, and you could

00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:12.260
probably say the same thing, you could take any

00:36:12.260 --> 00:36:15.320
wildlife species on the planet and you will find

00:36:15.320 --> 00:36:18.880
an audience out there who absolutely love these

00:36:18.880 --> 00:36:22.460
things to death. And then people who think they

00:36:22.460 --> 00:36:26.619
should be eliminated from the landscape. And

00:36:26.619 --> 00:36:29.420
wildlife takes it on the chin, whether it's a

00:36:29.420 --> 00:36:32.360
black chickadee pecking on someone's log house

00:36:32.360 --> 00:36:35.150
trying to get ant eggs out of it. and setting

00:36:35.150 --> 00:36:38.349
rat traps on the side of it to kill them or,

00:36:38.349 --> 00:36:40.750
you know, elephants for their ivory, you know,

00:36:40.789 --> 00:36:43.869
loving things to death. Yeah, that was broad.

00:36:44.250 --> 00:36:47.489
Grizzlies are unique in that. I mean, their scientific

00:36:47.489 --> 00:36:53.889
name is versus Horowitz. You know, that Horowitz

00:36:53.889 --> 00:36:56.690
comes from someone who knew something about having

00:36:56.690 --> 00:37:02.650
a pretty bad bear. And that was scary. So I think

00:37:02.650 --> 00:37:05.530
that. It's interesting to me that people who

00:37:05.530 --> 00:37:09.170
live in Dubois, at least through this investigation,

00:37:09.730 --> 00:37:13.050
it was hard to find anybody in and around this

00:37:13.050 --> 00:37:15.829
Kelly Grove circle of friends and family that

00:37:15.829 --> 00:37:18.030
didn't hate grizzly bears. And I'm like, you

00:37:18.030 --> 00:37:20.989
live in one of the most beautiful areas in Wyoming.

00:37:21.269 --> 00:37:24.929
It's a Serengeti of wildlife out there, but very

00:37:24.929 --> 00:37:30.059
low to no tolerance for grizzly bears. I know

00:37:30.059 --> 00:37:32.980
of the majority of the country, the other 47

00:37:32.980 --> 00:37:35.519
or six states that don't have grizzly bears.

00:37:36.059 --> 00:37:38.579
People travel to this place to vacation, and

00:37:38.579 --> 00:37:40.659
the chance to see a grizzly bear is a chance

00:37:40.659 --> 00:37:43.760
of a lifetime. Yeah, and they spend a lot of

00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:45.340
money in those communities when they come up

00:37:45.340 --> 00:37:47.500
there to look for grizzlies to photograph and

00:37:47.500 --> 00:37:50.539
to see. And you spelled it out pretty well about

00:37:50.539 --> 00:37:52.699
at least the agriculture interests that take

00:37:52.699 --> 00:37:55.099
it on the chin. But at the same time, there's

00:37:55.099 --> 00:37:58.809
compensation involved in reimbursing. Ranchers

00:37:58.809 --> 00:38:01.530
that lose livestock one group you left out in

00:38:01.530 --> 00:38:03.929
your description is there are some hunters out

00:38:03.929 --> 00:38:07.329
there who absolutely believe that Grizzlies and

00:38:07.329 --> 00:38:10.309
wolves were the demise of good hunting opportunities

00:38:10.309 --> 00:38:13.269
and big game populations for themselves So some

00:38:13.269 --> 00:38:16.469
of those guys out there don't appreciate it and

00:38:16.469 --> 00:38:18.489
that part of the hunting community is hard to

00:38:18.489 --> 00:38:22.880
understand for me personally because these animals

00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:25.599
were recovered because of sportsmen's dollars

00:38:25.599 --> 00:38:28.219
buying conservation programs. And they should

00:38:28.219 --> 00:38:31.099
be waving that success as hunters as a banner

00:38:31.099 --> 00:38:33.300
of success that we brought these animals back

00:38:33.300 --> 00:38:36.960
from the brink of extinction. And instead, they

00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:38.440
just want to hate them because they didn't get

00:38:38.440 --> 00:38:42.420
their elk that year. Having done these investigations

00:38:42.420 --> 00:38:44.679
regarding grizzlies and wolves throughout my

00:38:44.679 --> 00:38:48.119
career, I've heard a lot of that anti -apex predator

00:38:48.119 --> 00:38:51.719
sentiment. and you know we got 360 million people

00:38:51.719 --> 00:38:54.420
in our country but we got less than 2 000 bears

00:38:54.420 --> 00:38:55.860
and some of these people don't think we should

00:38:55.860 --> 00:38:58.219
even have those that's hard for me to wrap my

00:38:58.219 --> 00:39:02.199
head around as a conservationist yep me too and

00:39:02.199 --> 00:39:05.429
and if you see you know that This argument, for

00:39:05.429 --> 00:39:08.409
whatever reason, when this comes up, in my experience,

00:39:08.989 --> 00:39:11.230
the anti -predator people, the people who hate

00:39:11.230 --> 00:39:14.690
wolves, hate grizzly bears, they completely dismiss

00:39:14.690 --> 00:39:17.949
any discussion about the benefits of having these

00:39:17.949 --> 00:39:20.309
apex predators in the environment. And when I

00:39:20.309 --> 00:39:22.789
say benefits, I mean benefits for healthy elk

00:39:22.789 --> 00:39:25.869
and deer populations. They almost refuse to see

00:39:25.869 --> 00:39:29.070
the science that it's well proven that the existence

00:39:29.070 --> 00:39:32.429
of apex predators actually improves the health

00:39:32.429 --> 00:39:37.750
of elk and deer. herds. But they just refuse

00:39:37.750 --> 00:39:41.449
to see that. I'm sure you've experienced that

00:39:41.449 --> 00:39:43.949
too, where you can tell them that all day long,

00:39:44.489 --> 00:39:46.190
that deer and elk populations are better off

00:39:46.190 --> 00:39:47.909
now than they were when there were no wolves

00:39:47.909 --> 00:39:50.550
and no grizzly bears around, and they just won't

00:39:50.550 --> 00:39:53.269
listen. No, and then one of the other things

00:39:53.269 --> 00:39:55.769
that's tough too is this, in this case, this

00:39:55.769 --> 00:39:59.159
bear was killed on public land. the people of

00:39:59.159 --> 00:40:02.079
the United States, the people, not the government,

00:40:02.340 --> 00:40:06.000
the people on this land. And as part of that

00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:08.559
multiple use mandate for the Forest Service,

00:40:09.019 --> 00:40:11.840
it includes, you know, releasing cattle and sheep

00:40:11.840 --> 00:40:16.679
into the forest to graze. That often comes at

00:40:16.679 --> 00:40:20.719
the expense of people's wildlife, too. And, you

00:40:20.719 --> 00:40:25.099
know, sometimes the agricultural community, it

00:40:25.099 --> 00:40:27.880
seems to me that the the deck is stacked in their

00:40:27.880 --> 00:40:30.420
favor that we've got a whole nother branch of

00:40:30.420 --> 00:40:33.260
the government that goes out and removes predators

00:40:33.260 --> 00:40:37.039
from the landscape just to protect these domesticated

00:40:37.039 --> 00:40:39.599
animals that are turned loose in the wilderness

00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:44.090
roaming around on the forest. That's a rub between

00:40:44.090 --> 00:40:46.909
the agriculture interest, the recreational interest,

00:40:47.150 --> 00:40:49.210
and the, you know, the people who want to just

00:40:49.210 --> 00:40:51.150
see a bear for the first time in their lives.

00:40:51.710 --> 00:40:53.590
And that's why I think that's where the controversy

00:40:53.590 --> 00:40:57.349
gets really heated, because the value that, or

00:40:57.349 --> 00:40:59.469
lack of value that people have for a species

00:40:59.469 --> 00:41:02.849
is what makes it controversial. But just like

00:41:02.849 --> 00:41:05.349
the bears and the landscape, those all belong

00:41:05.349 --> 00:41:12.150
to us, the American people, as a whole. And I

00:41:12.150 --> 00:41:15.030
had a professor in college call, you know, you

00:41:15.030 --> 00:41:19.170
know, when you're going to dump, you know, on

00:41:19.170 --> 00:41:21.409
the bears and the wolves, because you don't like

00:41:21.409 --> 00:41:24.409
them, you know, and because they're killing your

00:41:24.409 --> 00:41:26.269
livestock, you got to be willing to pay a little

00:41:26.269 --> 00:41:29.010
ecological rent for using the landscape. And

00:41:29.010 --> 00:41:31.389
I always liked that concept. Yeah, exactly. That's

00:41:31.389 --> 00:41:33.369
rent. It's rent. Yeah, exactly. It's part of

00:41:33.369 --> 00:41:36.570
the cost of being able to graze your your sheep

00:41:36.570 --> 00:41:38.630
or cattle on public land and it's part of the

00:41:38.630 --> 00:41:41.610
cost of Having the public land available to all

00:41:41.610 --> 00:41:44.869
of us. That's that's great. You know, I want

00:41:44.869 --> 00:41:47.909
to get back to the barber point case, but I do

00:41:47.909 --> 00:41:51.010
want to offer some some statistics here that

00:41:51.010 --> 00:41:54.170
are just be a little bit different than the argument

00:41:54.170 --> 00:41:56.530
of it's good for the deer and the elk population

00:41:56.530 --> 00:41:59.909
and I'm gonna put some of this or at least I'll

00:41:59.909 --> 00:42:02.849
put links to it on the naturessecretservice .com

00:42:02.849 --> 00:42:05.590
website so people can go look themselves. But

00:42:05.590 --> 00:42:07.929
what always shocks me so much is the people that

00:42:07.929 --> 00:42:11.090
are anti -predator, anti -bear, they just will

00:42:11.090 --> 00:42:13.590
not do the most minimal amount of research to

00:42:13.590 --> 00:42:17.090
verify their assumptions or what they've heard

00:42:17.090 --> 00:42:18.969
at the local bar or what they've heard at the

00:42:18.969 --> 00:42:23.949
local hunting club or whatever about the impact

00:42:23.949 --> 00:42:27.239
of... Grizzly bears on either domestic cattle

00:42:27.239 --> 00:42:30.920
or livestock or deer and elk population So if

00:42:30.920 --> 00:42:33.639
you'll indulge me, I know you'll appreciate this

00:42:33.639 --> 00:42:37.199
The first thing is let's just take Wyoming as

00:42:37.199 --> 00:42:38.840
an example since that's where you were working

00:42:38.840 --> 00:42:41.980
and that's where this case was If you you can

00:42:41.980 --> 00:42:45.199
go to the Wyoming is it game and fish is what's

00:42:45.199 --> 00:42:49.219
the Wyoming? Game and fish if you go to the Wyoming

00:42:49.219 --> 00:42:52.840
game and fish website, you can download the the

00:42:52.840 --> 00:42:57.489
number of available elk and deer hunting permits

00:42:57.489 --> 00:43:01.809
going back 40 years. I mean, it's publicly available.

00:43:01.849 --> 00:43:03.969
A lot of it's on their website. If it's not on

00:43:03.969 --> 00:43:05.329
there, you can just ask them and they'll send

00:43:05.329 --> 00:43:08.409
it to you. And you can see how many permits have

00:43:08.409 --> 00:43:11.409
been issued to hunters to kill deer and elk in

00:43:11.409 --> 00:43:14.730
that state. And you can also compare it to, well,

00:43:14.730 --> 00:43:17.690
what was the success rate of all the permits

00:43:17.690 --> 00:43:20.409
that were issued? How many hunters actually killed

00:43:20.409 --> 00:43:23.010
a deer or an elk? And if you look at those numbers

00:43:23.010 --> 00:43:27.070
going back 40 years, they've almost changed,

00:43:27.289 --> 00:43:29.070
not at all. They fluctuate a little bit year

00:43:29.070 --> 00:43:31.809
to year, just based on, because the state sets

00:43:31.809 --> 00:43:36.789
its hunting license numbers or quotas based on

00:43:36.789 --> 00:43:40.230
deer and elk populations. So they fluctuate a

00:43:40.230 --> 00:43:42.269
little bit every year. But on the whole, over

00:43:42.269 --> 00:43:46.230
the last 40 years, the number of deer and elk

00:43:46.230 --> 00:43:49.639
tags has not changed. significantly, and the

00:43:49.639 --> 00:43:52.980
number of killed deer and elk by hunters has

00:43:52.980 --> 00:43:56.500
not changed significantly. Just looking at those

00:43:56.500 --> 00:43:59.239
numbers alone, there's absolutely no evidence

00:43:59.239 --> 00:44:01.380
to support any conclusion that grizzly bears

00:44:01.380 --> 00:44:05.340
or wolves or any other predator are hurting hunting

00:44:05.340 --> 00:44:07.760
opportunities in Wyoming. There's just no evidence

00:44:07.760 --> 00:44:11.539
to that, looking at the state's own numbers.

00:44:12.280 --> 00:44:17.329
And then if we want to look at livestock, And

00:44:17.329 --> 00:44:21.869
I looked at USDA records before I came here to

00:44:21.869 --> 00:44:24.849
record this today. And USDA is the agency you

00:44:24.849 --> 00:44:26.849
were talking about. It's a federal agency, but

00:44:26.849 --> 00:44:30.309
it spends a lot of time and effort helping to

00:44:30.309 --> 00:44:32.510
remove predators from the West, right? It's not

00:44:32.510 --> 00:44:35.570
exactly a wildlife friendly agency. It's much

00:44:35.570 --> 00:44:38.619
more friendly to agriculture. But they have on

00:44:38.619 --> 00:44:41.199
their website, they have records going back 40

00:44:41.199 --> 00:44:43.420
years. And if you look, I'm just going to read

00:44:43.420 --> 00:44:45.000
some of the numbers and then we'll get back to

00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:47.420
the barber point case. If we're just talking

00:44:47.420 --> 00:44:50.719
about sheep and lamb losses in Wyoming, only

00:44:50.719 --> 00:44:56.380
in Wyoming, in 1985, 40 years ago, they lost

00:44:56.380 --> 00:45:00.119
36 ,000 sheep and lambs to all known causes,

00:45:00.380 --> 00:45:06.030
to all causes. 0 .8 % of those losses could be

00:45:06.030 --> 00:45:08.250
attributed to bears, and it's not grizzly bears,

00:45:08.429 --> 00:45:12.909
it's all bears, including black bears. 0 .8%.

00:45:12.909 --> 00:45:17.809
If we jump ahead 10 years, 1995, it was 1 .2%.

00:45:17.809 --> 00:45:24.269
In 2005, it was 2 .5%. In 2015, it was 0 .9%,

00:45:24.269 --> 00:45:27.449
so it dropped back down below 1%. And then in

00:45:27.449 --> 00:45:31.829
2024, it was 3 % of all lost. Sheep and lamb

00:45:31.829 --> 00:45:34.550
could be attributed to all bears not just grizzly

00:45:34.550 --> 00:45:37.670
bears, but all bears Those numbers. Yeah, they've

00:45:37.670 --> 00:45:40.610
gone up a little bit, but they're they're shockingly

00:45:40.610 --> 00:45:44.289
Minimal compared to all the other causes that

00:45:44.289 --> 00:45:47.550
kill you know livestock in the state of Wyoming

00:45:47.550 --> 00:45:51.170
and so to be It just strikes me as odd to be

00:45:51.170 --> 00:45:55.539
so kind of aggressively focused on predators

00:45:55.539 --> 00:45:59.219
as the cause of all problems. When respiratory

00:45:59.219 --> 00:46:01.559
illness kills more livestock in Wyoming than

00:46:01.559 --> 00:46:04.119
any predator ever does, it's not grizzly bears

00:46:04.119 --> 00:46:07.320
that are causing significant losses to ranchers

00:46:07.320 --> 00:46:10.739
or hunters. It's just not. And there's no way

00:46:10.739 --> 00:46:13.780
you can argue otherwise. You just look at the

00:46:13.780 --> 00:46:16.480
data from state and federal agencies does not

00:46:16.480 --> 00:46:19.420
support a conclusion that these are having a

00:46:19.420 --> 00:46:24.480
significant impact on hunting recreation or Domestic

00:46:24.480 --> 00:46:27.679
agriculture. Yeah, I mean anyway, I didn't mean

00:46:27.679 --> 00:46:29.659
to get off on a side But I know that some of

00:46:29.659 --> 00:46:31.219
our listeners are gonna be like they're gonna

00:46:31.219 --> 00:46:32.820
they're gonna hear what we have to say about

00:46:32.820 --> 00:46:34.559
this barber point Grizzly and they're gonna say

00:46:34.559 --> 00:46:38.440
yeah, but But before they say that in the comments

00:46:38.440 --> 00:46:42.719
on the on the website page On the podcast page,

00:46:42.719 --> 00:46:45.380
you know, I just ask you please go look at your

00:46:45.380 --> 00:46:48.539
own state's data before you before you go down

00:46:48.539 --> 00:46:52.150
that road of start saying yeah, but because the

00:46:52.150 --> 00:46:54.449
data just doesn't support those conclusions.

00:46:55.570 --> 00:46:58.909
Anyway, so back to our friend, Kelly Grove now,

00:46:58.969 --> 00:47:02.809
who's made this crazy admission in a bar. What

00:47:02.809 --> 00:47:04.730
do you do with this? So this person who made

00:47:04.730 --> 00:47:06.570
the recording, I assume they come forward, they

00:47:06.570 --> 00:47:09.630
talk to either the Wyoming Game and Fish warden

00:47:09.630 --> 00:47:11.949
or you. What do you do with that information?

00:47:13.170 --> 00:47:17.690
So he did talk to the local warden there and

00:47:17.690 --> 00:47:20.210
he made contact with them. got a copy of the

00:47:20.210 --> 00:47:22.789
recording, which we've got. And then I listened

00:47:22.789 --> 00:47:26.409
to it intently to transcribe it. So obviously,

00:47:26.570 --> 00:47:28.570
we want to talk to Kelly Grove about this now,

00:47:28.650 --> 00:47:31.710
now that he's bragged about it. But so we start

00:47:31.710 --> 00:47:33.630
doing some background checks on Kelly Grove.

00:47:33.650 --> 00:47:37.570
And he's got an extensive criminal history to

00:47:37.570 --> 00:47:40.369
not exclude all of his past wildlife violations.

00:47:40.869 --> 00:47:44.440
He's a repeat. frequent flyer we call him and

00:47:44.440 --> 00:47:48.239
he had been caught by the state of Wyoming participating

00:47:48.239 --> 00:47:51.280
in an illegal bighorn sheep hunt and ended up

00:47:51.280 --> 00:47:54.559
taking a revocation for that and he had multiple

00:47:54.559 --> 00:47:57.059
other violations not to include some other non

00:47:57.059 --> 00:48:00.960
-wildlife related convictions. So he'd been through

00:48:00.960 --> 00:48:03.500
the system and figured he'd be a tougher interview

00:48:03.500 --> 00:48:08.099
but I think you know social media was handy at

00:48:08.099 --> 00:48:12.369
this time too. We did a check on his Facebook

00:48:12.369 --> 00:48:16.289
page and he posted some things about bears and

00:48:16.289 --> 00:48:19.030
other things he had killed. Interestingly for

00:48:19.030 --> 00:48:21.230
the state he had posted a picture where he shot

00:48:21.230 --> 00:48:24.769
an antelope two days before the antelope season

00:48:24.769 --> 00:48:27.949
archery hunt started and he was posing with this

00:48:27.949 --> 00:48:33.250
antelope with a rifle. With a rifle. So that

00:48:33.250 --> 00:48:36.550
math seemed a little odd. Based on the statements

00:48:36.550 --> 00:48:40.349
for, and I should say under Wyoming code, they

00:48:40.349 --> 00:48:42.929
have bears listed as a protected species as well.

00:48:43.010 --> 00:48:45.389
So the state drafted up a search warrant for

00:48:45.389 --> 00:48:49.829
the state trust species of antelope and included

00:48:49.829 --> 00:48:52.269
in that things related to the grizzly bear that

00:48:52.269 --> 00:48:56.010
we knew about so far. Kelly Grohl said he had

00:48:56.010 --> 00:48:59.969
a .30 caliber rifle he shot the bear with. He

00:48:59.969 --> 00:49:02.800
bragged about it in a bar. 10 millimeter, we

00:49:02.800 --> 00:49:04.960
had telemeter cases, you know, we needed more

00:49:04.960 --> 00:49:07.239
evidence and we met the probable cause to get

00:49:07.239 --> 00:49:09.780
a search warrant. So we went to interview Kelly.

00:49:10.619 --> 00:49:12.480
And this is, this is a search warrant of his

00:49:12.480 --> 00:49:14.940
house specifically look for those firearms, right?

00:49:15.320 --> 00:49:17.619
Yeah. And any other evidence related to the bear

00:49:17.619 --> 00:49:22.739
or the antelope. So, okay. So I am a state investigator,

00:49:22.960 --> 00:49:25.400
Scott Browning. He's my counterpart, if you will,

00:49:25.480 --> 00:49:28.639
an investigator for the state. And he and I went

00:49:28.639 --> 00:49:30.860
to do the interview. And then we had other officers

00:49:30.860 --> 00:49:35.699
on hand to do the search. As expected, Kelly

00:49:35.699 --> 00:49:38.980
denied and lied about everything we asked him

00:49:38.980 --> 00:49:41.519
about. And he made it clear. And it was kind

00:49:41.519 --> 00:49:44.519
of a chance for him to grandstand about his hatred

00:49:44.519 --> 00:49:47.940
towards bears. He denied even being in the area

00:49:47.940 --> 00:49:50.789
of Barber's Point. In the early part of the interview,

00:49:51.610 --> 00:49:53.769
he started to recant that and admitted he saw

00:49:53.769 --> 00:49:55.989
the bear at Barber's Point three different times.

00:49:56.550 --> 00:49:58.650
He admitted throwing rocks at it. He took pictures

00:49:58.650 --> 00:50:01.309
and videos of it. He still denied shooting it

00:50:01.309 --> 00:50:05.309
now in contrast or in contradiction to the recording

00:50:05.309 --> 00:50:08.889
that he was captured on in the bar. He denied

00:50:08.889 --> 00:50:11.230
even talking to anybody about a grizzly bear.

00:50:12.010 --> 00:50:15.110
But when I asked him if... you know, the investigation

00:50:15.110 --> 00:50:18.110
showed that he killed Despair, would he pay restitution

00:50:18.110 --> 00:50:21.489
for it? And Kelly said, yeah, I would. Who pays

00:50:21.489 --> 00:50:23.989
restitution for a bear they didn't shoot, I guess.

00:50:24.710 --> 00:50:28.030
And in the middle of this interview, I should

00:50:28.030 --> 00:50:29.590
mention that when we went to do the warrant,

00:50:29.670 --> 00:50:32.010
he wasn't home. So we called him before we went

00:50:32.010 --> 00:50:34.889
in the house, you know, to have him there on

00:50:34.889 --> 00:50:36.730
hand when we did this. So we called him and he

00:50:36.730 --> 00:50:38.590
showed up and he had some friends with him. They

00:50:38.590 --> 00:50:41.360
had been out. cruising around in the forest and

00:50:41.360 --> 00:50:43.519
some of his friends came. And in the middle,

00:50:43.659 --> 00:50:45.800
they stayed outside while we did our job. And

00:50:45.800 --> 00:50:47.679
then in the middle of that interview, one of

00:50:47.679 --> 00:50:49.940
his friends, Matt Brooks, came into the house

00:50:49.940 --> 00:50:54.420
and interrupted the interview. And we wondered

00:50:54.420 --> 00:50:56.300
why he was allowed in the house or how he got

00:50:56.300 --> 00:50:58.159
in so quickly. Yeah, exactly. You're supposed

00:50:58.159 --> 00:51:00.579
to have outside security there. Yeah. Shortly

00:51:00.579 --> 00:51:03.800
after he left, we found the... the recording

00:51:03.800 --> 00:51:05.980
device running on the kitchen counter. He was

00:51:05.980 --> 00:51:08.539
recording our interview with Kelly for his own

00:51:08.539 --> 00:51:11.059
benefit, which is no kidding. We've got a word

00:51:11.059 --> 00:51:14.900
for that suspicious. Yeah. Yeah. So he came,

00:51:15.079 --> 00:51:17.579
he came into the house, uh, extensively to use

00:51:17.579 --> 00:51:19.619
the bathroom. And then while he was there, he

00:51:19.619 --> 00:51:22.400
kind of surreptitiously left a recording device

00:51:22.400 --> 00:51:24.820
on the counter to eavesdrop on what you were

00:51:24.820 --> 00:51:27.760
saying. Is that it? Yeah, exactly. Crazy. Yeah.

00:51:28.239 --> 00:51:32.449
So anyhow, um, Kelly made comments like I know

00:51:32.449 --> 00:51:35.489
I didn't pull any triggers on any bears and I

00:51:35.489 --> 00:51:37.309
Asked him if he would tell if he was involved

00:51:37.309 --> 00:51:39.969
or knew who he was he said no But if I did I'd

00:51:39.969 --> 00:51:41.869
shake that person's hand for killing the grizzly

00:51:41.869 --> 00:51:44.670
bear. Oh nice Yes, belligerent about that part

00:51:44.670 --> 00:51:48.829
of it. So in the search warrant we ended up getting

00:51:48.829 --> 00:51:52.949
Kelly's phone Got the rifle the ammo and then

00:51:52.949 --> 00:51:55.690
some tele millimeter ammo. We could not find

00:51:55.690 --> 00:52:00.639
his pistol Later And that's you had mentioned

00:52:00.639 --> 00:52:03.119
10 millimeter early, but you didn't mention that

00:52:03.119 --> 00:52:05.440
that 10 millimeter was a pistol ammo, right?

00:52:05.579 --> 00:52:07.659
That's correct. Yeah. Okay. So you couldn't find

00:52:07.659 --> 00:52:09.679
the 10 millimeter pistol, but you did find a

00:52:09.679 --> 00:52:12.460
rifle that the same caliber that would have been

00:52:12.460 --> 00:52:14.559
the, I guess, the bullet you found in the bear,

00:52:14.579 --> 00:52:17.380
right? It was consistent with at least the caliber

00:52:17.380 --> 00:52:19.199
of the bear. Yeah. Whether it was that rifle

00:52:19.199 --> 00:52:21.579
or not, we didn't know it without lab testing.

00:52:22.719 --> 00:52:25.000
And we made arrangements to have this evidence

00:52:25.000 --> 00:52:27.320
process through our lab of the national. Okay.

00:52:28.199 --> 00:52:31.900
So, so next step is, you know, next on our list

00:52:31.900 --> 00:52:35.039
to talk to is Matt Brooks. We want to know why

00:52:35.039 --> 00:52:37.440
he's recording this phone call or this interview.

00:52:37.960 --> 00:52:42.280
Exactly. We go talk to him. He admits place in

00:52:42.280 --> 00:52:44.860
the recorder. He said he just wants to know what

00:52:44.860 --> 00:52:47.119
we're talking about because he thought it had

00:52:47.119 --> 00:52:48.980
something to do with a bunch of antelope that

00:52:48.980 --> 00:52:51.019
he might've been involved with. So he was scared

00:52:51.019 --> 00:52:55.019
and he admitted it was related to that. He denied

00:52:55.019 --> 00:52:57.260
any knowledge about Grove shooting a grizzly

00:52:57.260 --> 00:53:01.530
bear. And when we asked him if he wanted to help

00:53:01.530 --> 00:53:04.530
cooperate in this investigation, tell us why.

00:53:05.030 --> 00:53:07.309
He was there with a recorder. He said, no, I

00:53:07.309 --> 00:53:09.329
don't want to be involved or help you anymore.

00:53:12.710 --> 00:53:14.989
And then it comes down to the evidence. What

00:53:14.989 --> 00:53:17.190
did we find as a result of the search warrant?

00:53:17.840 --> 00:53:20.820
The cell phone was a treasure trove of information.

00:53:21.400 --> 00:53:24.679
And we found a bunch of stuff related to bears,

00:53:24.900 --> 00:53:27.320
numerous photos and videos of the bears at Barbers

00:53:27.320 --> 00:53:31.599
Point. We were able to firm up that Kelly had

00:53:31.599 --> 00:53:34.000
killed the antelope illegally with a rifle in

00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:36.940
the close season. We also found pictures of him

00:53:36.940 --> 00:53:40.219
setting illegal bear baits for black bear. So

00:53:40.219 --> 00:53:43.019
they were black bear hunting as well. Nobody

00:53:43.019 --> 00:53:47.200
had the edge for that though, or a permit. bear

00:53:47.200 --> 00:53:49.420
baiting permits. So there are other state violations.

00:53:49.719 --> 00:53:53.719
There are videos of grizzly bears. We also saw

00:53:53.719 --> 00:53:56.440
Matt Brooks and Kelly Grove illegally hunting

00:53:56.440 --> 00:53:59.340
and shooting from a highway at other animals.

00:54:00.579 --> 00:54:03.199
They were shooting at migratory birds while they

00:54:03.199 --> 00:54:06.780
were hunting over baited sites. This was, I know

00:54:06.780 --> 00:54:09.119
this is going to seem petty, but this lends to

00:54:09.119 --> 00:54:12.079
the psychology of Kelly Grove. He worked on an

00:54:12.079 --> 00:54:14.659
oil field, and this offended our US attorney

00:54:14.659 --> 00:54:17.380
more than anything. He's running around this

00:54:17.380 --> 00:54:20.400
oil field drill site with a tool trying to kill

00:54:20.400 --> 00:54:24.659
a rabbit. Oh my gosh. And then with a tool, like

00:54:24.659 --> 00:54:31.460
a wrench. And he had some mice in his dwelling

00:54:31.460 --> 00:54:33.880
there, I guess the trailer was staying in. So

00:54:33.880 --> 00:54:36.599
he was capturing these mice and then him and

00:54:36.599 --> 00:54:38.820
another guy were playing baseball with the mice.

00:54:39.079 --> 00:54:43.000
Oh my gosh. calling it a home run. And, you know,

00:54:43.500 --> 00:54:46.239
it was at their mice, I get it, the rodents,

00:54:46.280 --> 00:54:49.300
people kill them. But in the manner and the enjoyment

00:54:49.300 --> 00:54:53.139
that he was having, one of the the head U .S.

00:54:53.179 --> 00:54:55.380
attorney here in Lander, she found that deeply

00:54:55.380 --> 00:54:59.039
disturbing about this guy's mindset that he'd

00:54:59.039 --> 00:55:01.039
kill anything and had no regard for anything

00:55:01.039 --> 00:55:05.519
living, which wasn't far from the truth. So the

00:55:05.519 --> 00:55:07.920
Facebook warrant we got for that and similar.

00:55:08.429 --> 00:55:10.489
further evidence just to secure some of the things

00:55:10.489 --> 00:55:13.909
he was posting online. Right, right. Yeah, there's

00:55:13.909 --> 00:55:16.610
something something about, you know, there's

00:55:16.610 --> 00:55:19.010
one thing killing an animal is one thing for

00:55:19.010 --> 00:55:22.610
food or hunting purposes, but taking, you know,

00:55:22.650 --> 00:55:25.949
a lot of joy out of it, kind of another thing.

00:55:25.949 --> 00:55:28.809
It's kind of just weird, right? Yeah, so it linked

00:55:28.809 --> 00:55:31.289
itself to like the psychology of killing things.

00:55:31.590 --> 00:55:33.670
So yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then the lab results

00:55:33.670 --> 00:55:36.349
started coming in. And we found that the bullet

00:55:36.539 --> 00:55:41.039
was so smashed that we couldn't get the like

00:55:41.039 --> 00:55:43.280
uh fine characteristics from it but we could

00:55:43.280 --> 00:55:46.099
tell that it had what we call six lands and grooves

00:55:46.099 --> 00:55:49.920
and what that means is in a rifle barrel it's

00:55:49.920 --> 00:55:52.679
got rifling is what they call on it and it's

00:55:52.679 --> 00:55:54.940
a spiral shape going down the barrel kind of

00:55:54.940 --> 00:55:56.699
like when you throw a football through the air

00:55:56.699 --> 00:55:58.679
you want to spiral it a bullet does the same

00:55:58.679 --> 00:56:00.500
thing if you can get it to spin in the barrel

00:56:00.500 --> 00:56:03.219
it's more accurate and the way they do that is

00:56:03.219 --> 00:56:06.460
they etch these lands and grooves in there that

00:56:06.460 --> 00:56:09.019
make spiraling in there and that leaves an impression

00:56:09.019 --> 00:56:11.539
on the bullet just like a fingerprint does on

00:56:11.539 --> 00:56:14.380
a glass. So these lands and grooves told us that

00:56:14.380 --> 00:56:17.280
there were six lands and six grooves. So there's

00:56:17.280 --> 00:56:20.440
six cuts and then six raised areas that went

00:56:20.440 --> 00:56:24.280
around the bullet and coincidentally, so did

00:56:24.280 --> 00:56:26.940
Kelly Grove's gun and I had to see him rifling.

00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:31.000
So that was a class characteristic they call

00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:34.900
it, not a specific. So yeah, that's that's that's

00:56:34.900 --> 00:56:37.460
so people don't watch too much see it see the

00:56:37.460 --> 00:56:41.599
CSI TV shows that what you have is essentially

00:56:41.599 --> 00:56:44.420
circumstantial evidence. It's consistent. The

00:56:44.420 --> 00:56:46.619
bullet that you found in the bear was consistent

00:56:46.619 --> 00:56:50.760
with the gun that Kelly Groves owned, but not

00:56:50.760 --> 00:56:52.260
definitive. And that's because the bullet was

00:56:52.260 --> 00:56:55.639
so smashed up and damaged, right? Correct. Yeah,

00:56:56.159 --> 00:56:58.440
right. That's a good clarification. Yeah. And

00:56:58.440 --> 00:57:01.219
also just so listeners know, US Fish and Wildlife

00:57:01.219 --> 00:57:05.250
Service has its own forensic crime lab. And that's,

00:57:05.369 --> 00:57:07.530
they're the ones that did this analysis for you.

00:57:07.630 --> 00:57:10.170
Is that right? That's correct. Okay. Yeah. Very

00:57:10.170 --> 00:57:13.070
cool. Okay. All right. So, so good. You got some

00:57:13.070 --> 00:57:15.389
circumstantial evidence here. I'm sorry. I didn't

00:57:15.389 --> 00:57:17.789
mean to interrupt. Go ahead. That's okay. We

00:57:17.789 --> 00:57:20.650
kind of got a miss on the 10 millimeter casings

00:57:20.650 --> 00:57:23.590
for one particular reason. We didn't have the

00:57:23.590 --> 00:57:25.949
pistol. And we couldn't do any matching with

00:57:25.949 --> 00:57:28.949
that. And Kelly said that he had it, and he would

00:57:28.949 --> 00:57:30.670
turn it over to us. He just didn't know where

00:57:30.670 --> 00:57:33.909
it was at the time of the search. And no surprise,

00:57:34.469 --> 00:57:37.769
he said he lost it. And of course, it was never

00:57:37.769 --> 00:57:40.730
reported stolen either. But in the course of

00:57:40.730 --> 00:57:42.630
going through his phone, we found a bunch of

00:57:42.630 --> 00:57:45.190
texts and other things that people he had communicated

00:57:45.190 --> 00:57:47.489
with. So we had a whole laundry list of people

00:57:47.489 --> 00:57:49.750
we wanted to talk to in and around the Dubois.

00:57:49.969 --> 00:57:53.110
Dubois is a small western town. So it was a small

00:57:53.110 --> 00:57:55.110
town. So we knew we had to talk to people in

00:57:55.110 --> 00:57:58.050
town who might know about this. So we assembled

00:57:58.050 --> 00:58:01.150
a group of people, of agents. And in fact, Dirk

00:58:01.150 --> 00:58:02.869
Coy, who we talked about earlier, came over.

00:58:03.480 --> 00:58:06.940
And he came and helped with this. And anyhow,

00:58:07.380 --> 00:58:09.920
we rounded up anybody that was mentioned in and

00:58:09.920 --> 00:58:12.480
around this grisly killing in text or phone calls

00:58:12.480 --> 00:58:16.179
and things like that. And tried to glean out

00:58:16.179 --> 00:58:18.880
more information related to Grove killing this

00:58:18.880 --> 00:58:22.340
bear. I re -interviewed Matt Brooks with another

00:58:22.340 --> 00:58:27.420
officer. And we found out that Kelly Grove got

00:58:27.420 --> 00:58:30.280
booted out of his house after the search warrant,

00:58:30.300 --> 00:58:34.000
and he moved in with Matt Brooks. So they started

00:58:34.000 --> 00:58:37.579
living together, asked him if they talked about

00:58:37.579 --> 00:58:39.280
it. He says, no, we haven't even talked about

00:58:39.280 --> 00:58:41.260
the grizzly thing. And I'm like, yeah, sure.

00:58:42.320 --> 00:58:44.780
But he said he knows Kelly didn't shoot the bear.

00:58:46.559 --> 00:58:49.260
We confronted him with the evidence of other

00:58:49.260 --> 00:58:52.099
crimes on Kelly's phone that Matt Brooks was

00:58:52.099 --> 00:58:55.960
involved in. And to his credit, he took responsibility

00:58:55.960 --> 00:58:58.300
for illegally hunting black bears without a license

00:58:58.300 --> 00:59:03.389
over illegal baits. He said that he... I drank

00:59:03.389 --> 00:59:05.150
too much and they were driving around shooting

00:59:05.150 --> 00:59:07.650
out of the vehicle. He shot his antelope from

00:59:07.650 --> 00:59:10.829
a truck. He shot a white tailed deer, all kinds

00:59:10.829 --> 00:59:13.789
of other other state related wildlife charges.

00:59:14.670 --> 00:59:17.269
And we asked him about Kelly Grove hiding the

00:59:17.269 --> 00:59:20.449
gun. He said, you know, Kelly backtracked. He

00:59:20.449 --> 00:59:22.369
thought maybe it fell out of the truck somewhere.

00:59:22.389 --> 00:59:24.269
So we went into the mountains to go look where

00:59:24.269 --> 00:59:26.730
he might have dropped this gun. And he brought

00:59:26.730 --> 00:59:29.570
a bunch of us with. And Kelly knew that, you

00:59:29.570 --> 00:59:32.070
know, you guys are going to be talking to. other

00:59:32.070 --> 00:59:34.030
people in town, so he brought whoever would come

00:59:34.030 --> 00:59:37.230
with to help him find his pistol. And Brooks,

00:59:37.530 --> 00:59:40.190
his, you know, has his roommate says, yeah, I

00:59:40.190 --> 00:59:41.809
was pretty ticked off about that, you know, he

00:59:41.809 --> 00:59:43.969
dragged us around. And then like at the end of

00:59:43.969 --> 00:59:46.250
it, he made a comment that, you know, we're not

00:59:46.250 --> 00:59:48.489
going to find it, he says, but I know ahead of

00:59:48.489 --> 00:59:50.170
time, those officers are never going to get their

00:59:50.170 --> 00:59:52.469
hands on that gun anyways, which Brooks said

00:59:52.469 --> 00:59:55.610
he interpreted that it was hiding somewhere that

00:59:55.610 --> 00:59:57.650
only Grove knew about, and we weren't going to

00:59:57.650 --> 01:00:00.610
get our hands on it. And at that time, Brooks

01:00:00.610 --> 01:00:03.630
had claimed to be a bad liar. That'll be relevant

01:00:03.630 --> 01:00:08.969
later, so. This was pretty interesting. One of

01:00:08.969 --> 01:00:13.769
Kelly's friends, this is the people who, the

01:00:13.769 --> 01:00:19.010
couple that called us about this bear. This one,

01:00:19.409 --> 01:00:23.210
the husband, he actually was in the bar when

01:00:23.210 --> 01:00:26.179
Kelly was bragging about killing this bear. No

01:00:26.179 --> 01:00:28.519
kidding. And it struck me as very odd that him

01:00:28.519 --> 01:00:30.559
and his wife would call us about a dead bear.

01:00:31.199 --> 01:00:33.699
And then after we had gone and got the bear,

01:00:34.199 --> 01:00:36.780
he had heard Kelly Grove bragging about killing

01:00:36.780 --> 01:00:39.840
this bear in the bar. And he never called us.

01:00:39.980 --> 01:00:42.860
Yeah. And nor did his wife. And she knew about

01:00:42.860 --> 01:00:45.199
it as well. So we wanted to re -interview them

01:00:45.199 --> 01:00:48.280
to find out, you knew we were investigating this

01:00:48.280 --> 01:00:50.940
bear. Why didn't you call us? Well, we were friends

01:00:50.940 --> 01:00:54.440
with Kelly Grove. And they actually knew about

01:00:54.440 --> 01:00:56.920
the bears being up there on this cache because

01:00:56.920 --> 01:00:59.780
Kelly Grove told them about it. So they went

01:00:59.780 --> 01:01:01.880
up there to go see the bear. And this is what

01:01:01.880 --> 01:01:03.840
they said. When we got there and saw the dead

01:01:03.840 --> 01:01:06.559
bear, both of them simultaneously thought to

01:01:06.559 --> 01:01:10.059
themselves, Kelly killed this bear. Oh my gosh.

01:01:10.340 --> 01:01:12.500
Only to find out later he was bragging in a bar

01:01:12.500 --> 01:01:15.760
that he did. So that was his reputation in that

01:01:15.760 --> 01:01:18.739
town that he had actually killed this bear. Unbelievable.

01:01:19.739 --> 01:01:24.559
Yeah. you know talking to this couple they uh

01:01:24.559 --> 01:01:26.340
you know said the reason they didn't want to

01:01:26.340 --> 01:01:28.619
come forward is it's a small town and they didn't

01:01:28.619 --> 01:01:31.159
want to they're worried about repercussions and

01:01:31.159 --> 01:01:33.159
they don't want to be a rat and kelly's a friend

01:01:33.159 --> 01:01:35.659
and you know they were just worried about the

01:01:35.659 --> 01:01:38.619
upshot of you know being the ones who called

01:01:38.619 --> 01:01:41.480
in the first place and now suddenly the friend's

01:01:41.480 --> 01:01:46.920
the main suspect so anyhow so yeah wasn't there

01:01:46.920 --> 01:01:49.639
like a deal with the some gun being buried in

01:01:49.639 --> 01:01:53.630
this case Yeah, I'm coming up on that. Oh, sorry

01:01:53.630 --> 01:01:57.869
Yeah, so we enter we I got to tell you this part

01:01:57.869 --> 01:02:00.150
because this is we interviewed a few other people

01:02:00.150 --> 01:02:02.389
So we had enough at this point to go to the grand

01:02:02.389 --> 01:02:05.420
jury Okay For your listeners who don't know what

01:02:05.420 --> 01:02:07.619
that is, it's just a place where we go with the

01:02:07.619 --> 01:02:09.440
U .S. attorney and there's jurors there. They

01:02:09.440 --> 01:02:11.460
hear the government's case and decide if they

01:02:11.460 --> 01:02:14.300
have enough to take the case forward or to get,

01:02:14.300 --> 01:02:16.239
you know, subpoenas issued to get more evidence.

01:02:16.260 --> 01:02:18.980
But they decided after our testimony that Kelly

01:02:18.980 --> 01:02:21.400
Grove, you know, there's enough evidence to,

01:02:21.400 --> 01:02:24.960
you know, charge Kelly Grove with killing this

01:02:24.960 --> 01:02:27.300
grizzly bear. So he was indicted in the grand

01:02:27.300 --> 01:02:30.639
jury. OK, for violating the Endangered Species

01:02:30.639 --> 01:02:35.539
Act, yeah? That's correct. November of 2017,

01:02:35.579 --> 01:02:38.099
like two years after the bear was killed, we

01:02:38.099 --> 01:02:40.179
finally finished. I'm not going to go over every

01:02:40.179 --> 01:02:42.340
interview we did and waiting, you know, it took

01:02:42.340 --> 01:02:44.539
time for all this stuff to come to fruition,

01:02:45.079 --> 01:02:47.980
but we invited him in November. He pled not guilty

01:02:47.980 --> 01:02:51.159
and his trial was set for February. So that was

01:02:51.159 --> 01:02:54.320
about a week before we went to trial. Brian Baker,

01:02:54.460 --> 01:02:56.699
the game warden from Du Bois gets a phone call

01:02:56.699 --> 01:03:01.179
and it's a woman who is a scorned girlfriend

01:03:01.179 --> 01:03:06.980
of Matt Brooks. Oh boy. And so she says that

01:03:06.980 --> 01:03:09.639
you guys are investigating the wrong guy. Kelly

01:03:09.639 --> 01:03:13.139
Grove didn't shoot the bear. My ex -boyfriend

01:03:13.139 --> 01:03:17.820
did. Matt Brooks. Oh, boy. So we're like, oh

01:03:17.820 --> 01:03:20.480
great. We're ready to go to trial and Kelly So

01:03:20.480 --> 01:03:23.079
we have to determine the you know And we got

01:03:23.079 --> 01:03:25.340
such a runaround from so many people involved

01:03:25.340 --> 01:03:28.139
in this case We did not want to provide information

01:03:28.139 --> 01:03:30.699
to cooperate in the small town and we thought

01:03:30.699 --> 01:03:33.179
maybe this was a ruse to like throw a wrench

01:03:33.179 --> 01:03:37.920
into the the case so I Traveled up to Montana

01:03:37.920 --> 01:03:40.980
with another agent who's assigned Ramona I and

01:03:40.980 --> 01:03:43.400
Ellie and she and I interviewed this woman face

01:03:43.400 --> 01:03:48.820
to face and her description of what happened.

01:03:49.480 --> 01:03:51.900
There's no way she could have known any of this

01:03:51.900 --> 01:03:56.480
unless someone told her. The details were staggering

01:03:56.480 --> 01:03:59.219
about what had happened once this investigation

01:03:59.219 --> 01:04:03.739
launched. To illustrate, she said that she told

01:04:03.739 --> 01:04:07.780
us that when I interviewed Matt Brooks a second

01:04:07.780 --> 01:04:10.860
time, he and her were living together in a town

01:04:10.860 --> 01:04:14.159
called Casper. And he was at work when we interviewed

01:04:14.159 --> 01:04:17.750
him, Brian Baker and I. And he was pretty rattled,

01:04:18.150 --> 01:04:21.070
and he had gone home after the interview, went

01:04:21.070 --> 01:04:23.949
into the bathroom, she said, had her leave her

01:04:23.949 --> 01:04:25.769
phone and his phone on the counter because he

01:04:25.769 --> 01:04:27.929
felt like Big Brother was using the phones to

01:04:27.929 --> 01:04:31.329
listen to what was going on. And you and I laugh

01:04:31.329 --> 01:04:33.230
like that's the things people think and that

01:04:33.230 --> 01:04:35.630
was, you know, we don't have the ability, but

01:04:35.630 --> 01:04:38.409
he was so paranoid that we were eavesdropping

01:04:38.409 --> 01:04:40.250
on this. And he went in the bathroom, turned

01:04:40.250 --> 01:04:42.969
on the fan and told her that he had done some

01:04:42.969 --> 01:04:45.130
really stupid things before they started dating

01:04:45.130 --> 01:04:49.750
to include shooting this grizzly bear. And he

01:04:49.750 --> 01:04:52.530
described a Kelly girl was with them, how they

01:04:52.530 --> 01:04:55.739
did it. She says, well, what are you going to

01:04:55.739 --> 01:04:57.099
do? He says, well, they're never going to make

01:04:57.099 --> 01:04:58.960
this case stick because they don't have the right

01:04:58.960 --> 01:05:01.320
gun. And she's like, well, why not? He goes,

01:05:01.480 --> 01:05:04.360
well, I shot it, used my gun, and it's buried

01:05:04.360 --> 01:05:06.559
up in the mountains by Dubois there. He goes,

01:05:06.820 --> 01:05:10.780
I put it in an oily rag, wrapped it in. plastic

01:05:10.780 --> 01:05:13.440
and I buried it. He actually buried it with Kelly

01:05:13.440 --> 01:05:16.840
Grove and another guy. She said, and he was so

01:05:16.840 --> 01:05:18.559
scared that they were going to rat him out and

01:05:18.559 --> 01:05:20.460
tell him where the guns at that he went there

01:05:20.460 --> 01:05:22.840
by himself, dug it up and moved it to another

01:05:22.840 --> 01:05:25.760
place and buried it again. So this is like his

01:05:25.760 --> 01:05:28.820
prized rifle possession. So I mean, things like

01:05:28.820 --> 01:05:30.440
this is just, you don't, you don't make that

01:05:30.440 --> 01:05:35.440
up. And so, and she said that he wasn't worried

01:05:35.440 --> 01:05:37.460
about the other wildlife crimes as much as he

01:05:37.460 --> 01:05:41.750
was about the grizzly bear. Now, This informant,

01:05:41.769 --> 01:05:44.769
the ex -girlfriend, she was really worried about

01:05:44.769 --> 01:05:48.210
coming forward because prior to their breakup,

01:05:48.409 --> 01:05:52.630
she was pregnant and miscarried. And the night

01:05:52.630 --> 01:05:55.789
before her miscarriage, her and Matt got in a

01:05:55.789 --> 01:05:58.789
big fight and he head -butted her, split her

01:05:58.789 --> 01:06:01.750
head open and she had to go to the ER on her

01:06:01.750 --> 01:06:05.340
own and got sick. Shortly thereafter, of course,

01:06:05.400 --> 01:06:07.599
they broke up because of domestic violence. She

01:06:07.599 --> 01:06:11.320
went through a DNC to have the dead baby removed

01:06:11.320 --> 01:06:14.659
from, you know, that procedure they call that.

01:06:14.679 --> 01:06:18.599
And she talked about it, you know, like she needed

01:06:18.599 --> 01:06:20.340
to get away from him at that point. He didn't

01:06:20.340 --> 01:06:22.639
even show up at the hospital. She went through

01:06:22.639 --> 01:06:25.739
this procedure. She went into detail about...

01:06:25.739 --> 01:06:27.659
I said, well, how do I know you're not making

01:06:27.659 --> 01:06:29.980
this up, or just repeating what you heard? She

01:06:29.980 --> 01:06:32.179
says, we had our own code when it came to talking

01:06:32.179 --> 01:06:35.139
about this bear around other people. He called

01:06:35.139 --> 01:06:38.019
it his boomstick, which meant his rifle, and

01:06:38.019 --> 01:06:40.320
then he'd use the digging gesture with a shovel,

01:06:40.500 --> 01:06:43.179
you know, like that her and him would use this

01:06:43.179 --> 01:06:46.780
little code. And she said she was, I asked her

01:06:46.780 --> 01:06:49.380
why she was coming forward. And she said that

01:06:49.380 --> 01:06:52.199
she felt that at the time she was too afraid

01:06:52.199 --> 01:06:54.159
to stand up to him. And now that they've broken

01:06:54.159 --> 01:06:58.360
up, she had a support system around her. And

01:06:58.360 --> 01:07:02.260
she knew that Brooks's ex -wife had been beaten

01:07:02.260 --> 01:07:05.179
by him. He had told her that. And he was currently

01:07:05.179 --> 01:07:07.099
living with someone else. And she was just worried

01:07:07.099 --> 01:07:09.980
about him hurting someone else. Plus he felt

01:07:09.980 --> 01:07:11.860
like he should be held accountable for killing

01:07:11.860 --> 01:07:16.760
this bear. So we go re -interview Brooks. And

01:07:16.760 --> 01:07:19.719
he lies, denies everything, says she's crazy.

01:07:21.039 --> 01:07:24.000
He did say Grove didn't shoot the bear or kill

01:07:24.000 --> 01:07:27.840
the bear. He said he talks to Grove all the time.

01:07:28.000 --> 01:07:30.340
And even though Grove had moved out of state

01:07:30.340 --> 01:07:34.500
for a job, but they still talked. And one of

01:07:34.500 --> 01:07:37.079
the interesting things that Brooks's girlfriend

01:07:37.079 --> 01:07:40.280
told us is that when Grove came back in for his

01:07:40.280 --> 01:07:43.800
trial that was scheduled, that he had came and

01:07:43.800 --> 01:07:47.000
stayed with Brooks in the house there overnight

01:07:47.000 --> 01:07:49.500
and that's how she heard this whole story. Okay,

01:07:50.000 --> 01:07:53.500
so she knew that so anyhow, I denied conspiring

01:07:53.500 --> 01:07:58.960
with girls about the bear and yeah, and But I

01:07:58.960 --> 01:08:01.559
asked him about his gun You know because he didn't

01:08:01.559 --> 01:08:04.440
know that we knew about his gun, right? So I

01:08:04.440 --> 01:08:06.900
asked him where he buried it and you know, you

01:08:06.900 --> 01:08:09.679
could tell that that shocked him that is great

01:08:09.679 --> 01:08:13.400
for that You don't want us to get this gun and

01:08:13.400 --> 01:08:17.560
we're leaning on him enough, you know, he conceded

01:08:17.560 --> 01:08:20.779
that he had taken it to a gunsmith and was having

01:08:20.779 --> 01:08:23.539
the barrel removed and having the gun changed

01:08:23.539 --> 01:08:26.359
to a completely different caliber. Perfect, to

01:08:26.359 --> 01:08:28.920
avoid that forensic evidence from the scene,

01:08:29.279 --> 01:08:32.899
right? Exactly. Unbelievable. So he worked with

01:08:32.899 --> 01:08:35.340
the gunsmith who was helping him do this. So

01:08:35.340 --> 01:08:37.220
right after I left that interview, you know where

01:08:37.220 --> 01:08:40.020
I went, right to the gunsmith, got my hands on

01:08:40.020 --> 01:08:44.020
all of that gun evidence from Brooks. And so

01:08:44.020 --> 01:08:46.619
needless to say, we canceled the trial for Kelly

01:08:46.619 --> 01:08:50.960
Grove because he didn't actually shoot it, but

01:08:50.960 --> 01:08:54.920
he was involved, according to the ex -girlfriend.

01:08:56.739 --> 01:09:00.640
So what happens? How'd you wrap this up? What

01:09:00.640 --> 01:09:02.560
were the final charges on everybody, and what

01:09:02.560 --> 01:09:06.300
was the outcome? So target letters went out.

01:09:07.340 --> 01:09:11.840
And obviously, Grove and Brooks knew that the

01:09:11.840 --> 01:09:14.920
gig was up, so they entered into pleas. Grove

01:09:14.920 --> 01:09:17.779
ended up pleading guilty to harassing a grizzly

01:09:17.779 --> 01:09:21.680
bear, and the investigation showed that he did

01:09:21.680 --> 01:09:24.319
in fact shoot his 10 millimeter in the direction

01:09:24.319 --> 01:09:27.960
of the bear. So he's harassing a threatened species,

01:09:28.539 --> 01:09:32.060
which is the same penalty as shooting it, surprise.

01:09:32.920 --> 01:09:36.319
He got five years of unsupervised probation.

01:09:36.720 --> 01:09:40.199
a five -year global hunting revocation through

01:09:40.199 --> 01:09:44.619
the wildlife violator compact. He was not fined,

01:09:44.619 --> 01:09:48.920
but he had to pay $7 ,000 in restitution for

01:09:48.920 --> 01:09:51.119
all the wildlife damage, and he was sentenced

01:09:51.119 --> 01:09:54.039
in July. But as part of his plea, we wanted him

01:09:54.039 --> 01:09:56.800
to do a post -conviction interview so he could

01:09:56.800 --> 01:09:59.399
mull down all the facts of that particular case,

01:09:59.699 --> 01:10:03.380
plus use them against Brooks if necessary. Right.

01:10:03.520 --> 01:10:08.159
Brooks got a target letter and same for him.

01:10:08.479 --> 01:10:11.840
He knew the gig was up. He ended up entering

01:10:11.840 --> 01:10:13.920
a plea agreement to plead guilty for shooting

01:10:13.920 --> 01:10:17.880
the bear. Five years probation, 200 hours of

01:10:17.880 --> 01:10:21.880
community service, a four year worldwide hunting

01:10:21.880 --> 01:10:27.899
ban, $20 ,000 in restitution, no fine, forfeit

01:10:27.899 --> 01:10:35.319
the rifle. And he also did a post. Okay, so you

01:10:35.319 --> 01:10:38.500
know this is actually a pretty good penalty because

01:10:39.800 --> 01:10:41.760
You know, it's always shocking to people when

01:10:41.760 --> 01:10:43.619
you tell them that the Endangered Species Act,

01:10:43.800 --> 01:10:48.159
the maximum penalty under that is a class A misdemeanor.

01:10:48.439 --> 01:10:50.399
And that's with regard to endangered species.

01:10:50.699 --> 01:10:53.520
If it's a threatened species, it's a class B

01:10:53.520 --> 01:10:56.260
misdemeanor. So no matter what, even if it's

01:10:56.260 --> 01:10:59.060
a class A misdemeanor, the maximum penalty is

01:10:59.060 --> 01:11:05.060
one year in jail and $100 ,000 fine. So this

01:11:05.060 --> 01:11:08.539
penalty is actually pretty good. The other interesting

01:11:08.539 --> 01:11:11.420
thing that you mentioned is harassment, which

01:11:11.420 --> 01:11:14.939
is just causing, you know, interfering with breeding,

01:11:15.199 --> 01:11:17.420
feeding or sheltering of an endangered or threatened

01:11:17.420 --> 01:11:21.399
animal is the same as killing it. It's the same.

01:11:21.560 --> 01:11:24.840
It's considered take and you can't harass them.

01:11:25.000 --> 01:11:27.180
And so throwing rocks at them or shooting bullets

01:11:27.180 --> 01:11:29.699
at them to scare them off of a kill site would

01:11:29.699 --> 01:11:32.479
be harassing them, interfering with feeding,

01:11:32.479 --> 01:11:37.420
right? Correct. Yeah, so that's not a bad penalty,

01:11:37.840 --> 01:11:40.220
especially the hunting guys like this who love

01:11:40.220 --> 01:11:42.399
to hunt, take away their hunting privileges for

01:11:42.399 --> 01:11:45.060
a few years. That hurts. And I know you were

01:11:45.060 --> 01:11:47.380
short on time, but that wasn't the end of it.

01:11:47.720 --> 01:11:51.359
Oh, no, tell us more. We have like five more

01:11:51.359 --> 01:11:54.000
minutes. Yeah, this should take long. So Grove

01:11:54.000 --> 01:11:57.020
gets sentenced and the judge kind of basically

01:11:57.020 --> 01:12:00.460
tells him, no screwing off while you're on probation.

01:12:02.309 --> 01:12:04.770
Well, that didn't last long. November 12th, we

01:12:04.770 --> 01:12:06.890
get another complaint, an anonymous complaint

01:12:06.890 --> 01:12:09.670
that this is like four months after his conviction,

01:12:09.970 --> 01:12:12.470
that him and another guy named Spencer Carrico

01:12:12.470 --> 01:12:18.210
were out poaching elk. So we shimmy up to Dubois,

01:12:18.369 --> 01:12:22.050
go to Gro's new house, and he's not home, but

01:12:22.050 --> 01:12:24.710
there's a deer leg sticking out of the shed there,

01:12:25.189 --> 01:12:28.189
the fresh deer leg. And this guy's not supposed

01:12:28.189 --> 01:12:30.109
to be hunting, right? So what's a deer leg doing

01:12:30.109 --> 01:12:33.920
in the shed? Right. Long story short, Grove and

01:12:33.920 --> 01:12:37.659
this guy Carrico are out driving around the roads

01:12:37.659 --> 01:12:42.739
in Dubois hunting deer and hunting elk. And Carrico

01:12:42.739 --> 01:12:45.800
has no licenses to do any of this. He ends up

01:12:45.800 --> 01:12:48.880
shooting a deer, takes it to Grove's house. Grove's

01:12:48.880 --> 01:12:51.600
driving his truck, transports it, helps him butcher

01:12:51.600 --> 01:12:54.000
it. And then they're shooting that elk too with

01:12:54.000 --> 01:12:57.859
no permits. And when we're there wanting to talk

01:12:57.859 --> 01:13:00.789
to him about this, We pulled back because they

01:13:00.789 --> 01:13:02.869
weren't home and we parked down the street They

01:13:02.869 --> 01:13:05.250
showed up and both of them go in the house We

01:13:05.250 --> 01:13:07.409
go knock on the door and they won't answer it

01:13:07.409 --> 01:13:10.109
because they see the game words outside the door

01:13:10.109 --> 01:13:13.909
We we do character was a younger guy. So we just

01:13:13.909 --> 01:13:20.050
called his mom Mom pulled his hair and pulled

01:13:20.050 --> 01:13:24.270
his ear and he came out pretty much he Agreed

01:13:24.270 --> 01:13:27.310
to come back home and we were waiting for him

01:13:27.310 --> 01:13:31.039
in his mother's house Nice. And he was a reluctant

01:13:31.039 --> 01:13:34.439
suspect. He didn't want to tell us anything about

01:13:34.439 --> 01:13:36.880
Grove. But by the end of the interview, he had

01:13:36.880 --> 01:13:39.359
confessed that him and Grove were out coaching

01:13:39.359 --> 01:13:44.899
wildlife while Grove was on revocation. And long

01:13:44.899 --> 01:13:48.680
story short, after that, since Grove was on probation,

01:13:49.760 --> 01:13:51.979
we waited till the state finished their prosecution

01:13:51.979 --> 01:13:56.460
in state court for the deer violation. And that

01:13:56.600 --> 01:13:59.539
documented that Grove had busted his probation

01:13:59.539 --> 01:14:02.859
federal court. The judge had seen Grove a number

01:14:02.859 --> 01:14:06.340
of times over the years, so the state sentenced

01:14:06.340 --> 01:14:10.590
him to one year in jail. So he went to jail and

01:14:10.590 --> 01:14:13.590
the federal judge, um, had tacked down an extra

01:14:13.590 --> 01:14:16.729
six months. So Kelly Grove went to prison. Um,

01:14:16.869 --> 01:14:20.189
I want to say this about it and closing it. Yeah.

01:14:20.250 --> 01:14:22.949
When people cooperate with us, especially at

01:14:22.949 --> 01:14:25.569
great risks to themselves, right. It's a pretty

01:14:25.569 --> 01:14:27.649
scary proposition. I mean, you have to stand

01:14:27.649 --> 01:14:30.590
up against a community or even with friends or

01:14:30.590 --> 01:14:33.989
coworkers. So the people who risk the most in

01:14:33.989 --> 01:14:37.210
this case, I submitted them for a reward under

01:14:37.210 --> 01:14:40.850
the Lacey Act to give them some, and under ESA

01:14:40.850 --> 01:14:44.170
to give them some kind of financial thanks for

01:14:44.170 --> 01:14:48.090
helping us. And I think it went a long way. Good

01:14:48.090 --> 01:14:50.970
for you. Yeah, good for you. There are rewards

01:14:50.970 --> 01:14:53.109
available for some of these things under the

01:14:53.109 --> 01:14:55.170
Lacey Act. It's available. There's a Lacey Act

01:14:55.170 --> 01:14:57.470
reward account that allows Fish and Wildlife

01:14:57.470 --> 01:15:00.279
to give out rewards for information. Good for

01:15:00.279 --> 01:15:03.039
you for making sure that happened. And in closing,

01:15:03.119 --> 01:15:05.899
you know, this was one bear, and you and I were

01:15:05.899 --> 01:15:08.399
talking in the beginning about the bear population.

01:15:09.279 --> 01:15:13.500
And we in law enforcement operate in the realm

01:15:13.500 --> 01:15:16.720
of individual victims, whereas biology might

01:15:16.720 --> 01:15:20.079
operate in the realm of a population. And what's

01:15:20.079 --> 01:15:22.920
tough about our jobs, and I'm sure you feel this

01:15:22.920 --> 01:15:26.060
way, I miss that mission of protecting wildlife.

01:15:26.880 --> 01:15:30.029
And I know even after I left, that grizzly bears

01:15:30.029 --> 01:15:32.909
are still taking it on the chin by certain people.

01:15:33.829 --> 01:15:36.569
And all wildlife is. And to the men and women

01:15:36.569 --> 01:15:39.149
who are still out there doing it, you know, I

01:15:39.149 --> 01:15:41.449
want to cheer them on for my retirement seat,

01:15:41.449 --> 01:15:44.270
but I do miss that mission. More importantly,

01:15:44.590 --> 01:15:49.170
I miss the satisfaction of avenging like the

01:15:49.170 --> 01:15:51.390
death of that bear. So even though it's just

01:15:51.390 --> 01:15:56.420
one. Yep. No, and it is one bear, but the deterrent

01:15:56.420 --> 01:16:00.600
impact you had in being so diligent about pursuing

01:16:00.600 --> 01:16:03.340
the case and ultimately, you know, getting your

01:16:03.340 --> 01:16:07.079
man, it has a deterrent impact which has the

01:16:07.079 --> 01:16:11.399
potential to save future bears. So yeah, I appreciate

01:16:11.399 --> 01:16:15.460
you saying that. And I miss it too. I miss it

01:16:15.460 --> 01:16:18.520
every day because I loved protecting natural

01:16:18.520 --> 01:16:22.079
resources and I loved Pursuing people that just

01:16:22.079 --> 01:16:24.340
kind of wanton Lee broke the law, you know, it

01:16:24.340 --> 01:16:26.340
drove me insane that there were I don't like

01:16:26.340 --> 01:16:30.380
criminals and I I liked being the guy that put

01:16:30.380 --> 01:16:32.460
an end to criminal behavior and I know you did

01:16:32.460 --> 01:16:36.100
too and it's Ten times more satisfying when you're

01:16:36.100 --> 01:16:39.220
doing it to protect wildlife resources and natural

01:16:39.220 --> 01:16:42.439
resources for the entire population of the United

01:16:42.439 --> 01:16:47.239
States and the world So that that's uh, that's

01:16:47.239 --> 01:16:49.920
pretty cool. I Will say and I'm sure you'll agree

01:16:49.920 --> 01:16:53.760
with this, you know Of course just like any workplace.

01:16:53.760 --> 01:16:56.939
There are people that are superstars and average

01:16:56.939 --> 01:16:59.659
but for the most part in the US Fish and Wildlife

01:16:59.659 --> 01:17:02.840
Service Special agents are extremely tenacious

01:17:02.840 --> 01:17:06.460
and If you commit a wildlife crime, you know

01:17:06.460 --> 01:17:08.460
Fish and Wildlife Service agents will pursue

01:17:08.460 --> 01:17:11.560
you. They will catch you and they will put you

01:17:11.560 --> 01:17:16.439
in jail Yeah interesting you say that Uh, Gro's

01:17:16.439 --> 01:17:19.000
lawyer and that proffer at the end of his post

01:17:19.000 --> 01:17:22.039
conviction, uh, she had made some comment to

01:17:22.039 --> 01:17:24.479
that effect of why did it take you guys so long

01:17:24.479 --> 01:17:27.399
to do this? And the U S attorney that was handling

01:17:27.399 --> 01:17:29.939
the case, he's now a judge here in town and,

01:17:30.180 --> 01:17:32.380
uh, he kind of let her have it. He said, you

01:17:32.380 --> 01:17:34.920
know, you really think that we wanted to drag

01:17:34.920 --> 01:17:38.340
this case out for this long. What about the actions

01:17:38.340 --> 01:17:40.869
of your clients? Don't even try and sell that

01:17:40.869 --> 01:17:43.869
here. So, and lastly, I wanted, and everything

01:17:43.869 --> 01:17:47.329
you said is exactly right, Ed. And the last thing

01:17:47.329 --> 01:17:50.210
I want to say is that none of this stuff gets

01:17:50.210 --> 01:17:54.350
done by one individual agent. You can't say enough

01:17:54.350 --> 01:17:58.029
good about the state officers, you know, Scott

01:17:58.029 --> 01:18:00.789
Browning, Brian Baker, Brian DeBolt, the officers

01:18:00.789 --> 01:18:02.550
that came and helped with the takedown, the other

01:18:02.550 --> 01:18:05.569
agents who ventured over Bo Stone. That helped

01:18:05.569 --> 01:18:08.390
put this together and then without a good US

01:18:08.390 --> 01:18:12.569
attorney who cares about wildlife, you know Yeah,

01:18:12.609 --> 01:18:14.710
it got done because we had good people helping

01:18:14.710 --> 01:18:17.750
too So my thanks to all of them for doing what

01:18:17.750 --> 01:18:24.399
they did for grizzly bears Yeah Yeah, and there

01:18:24.399 --> 01:18:26.479
are more cases for you and I to talk about on

01:18:26.479 --> 01:18:29.300
future episodes Steve, thank you so much for

01:18:29.300 --> 01:18:32.640
sharing Your experience on this case great job

01:18:32.640 --> 01:18:35.539
on it as with all the work that you do I loved

01:18:35.539 --> 01:18:37.840
hearing about it and I'm sure our listeners will

01:18:37.840 --> 01:18:41.840
to controversial hard topic to talk about sometimes

01:18:41.840 --> 01:18:45.380
but I think and I know you agree super important

01:18:45.380 --> 01:18:48.739
that predators exist in the Western US and Like

01:18:48.739 --> 01:18:51.340
you, I was proud to protect them through the

01:18:51.340 --> 01:18:53.640
federal laws that are available. So thanks again

01:18:53.640 --> 01:18:55.520
for being on the episode. I really appreciate

01:18:55.520 --> 01:18:58.300
it. And Ed, thanks for having me and thanks for

01:18:58.300 --> 01:19:00.039
hearing this story and putting it out there for

01:19:00.039 --> 01:19:03.319
people to hear it. So thanks. You bet. All right.

01:19:03.619 --> 01:19:05.439
All right. That'll do it for this episode of

01:19:05.439 --> 01:19:07.239
Nature's Secret Service. If you want to learn

01:19:07.239 --> 01:19:10.039
more about the Barber Point Grizzly Bear case

01:19:10.039 --> 01:19:12.979
or Steve's career, you can go to the Nature's

01:19:12.979 --> 01:19:16.079
Secret Service. website. There will be some documents

01:19:16.079 --> 01:19:18.060
and photos posted there for you to take a look

01:19:18.060 --> 01:19:19.779
at, as well as you can listen to this episode

01:19:19.779 --> 01:19:22.600
right off the website. Thanks for joining us

01:19:22.600 --> 01:19:25.800
today. We'll see you next time. Nature's Secret

01:19:25.800 --> 01:19:28.640
Service is written and produced by me, Ed Newcomer,

01:19:28.779 --> 01:19:31.640
and is co -produced by the DHTV team here at

01:19:31.640 --> 01:19:33.859
California State University Dominguez Hills.

01:19:34.159 --> 01:19:36.199
Follow us on social media and connect with us

01:19:36.199 --> 01:19:38.539
online at naturessecretservice .com.