WEBVTT

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If you want to learn more about the topics of

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today's episode, visit the podcast website at

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naturessecretservice .com. Thanks for listening.

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Okay, people, listen up. Here we go. I'm Ed Newcomer.

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This is Nature's Secret Service, the podcast

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that puts you in the room with the men and women

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of wildlife law enforcement. Today, our guest

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is Corky Roberts joining us from his home in

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Arizona. Corky is a former U .S. Fish and Wildlife

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Service Special Agent, but before he became an

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agent for the Fish and Wildlife Service, he did

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many years as a wildlife officer for the state

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of Washington. And then after becoming an agent,

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he worked in places like Arizona and Alaska,

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and then later in Washington. He was a pilot

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agent for us for many years and served as a resident

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agent in charge in Oklahoma, or sorry, in Alaska.

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He finished his career out in an area known as

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Tri -Cities, Washington, which he'll talk about

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in a little bit. One of the great things about

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Corky is he's a former SEER instructor for the

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US Air Force, which stands for Survival Evasion

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Resistance and Escape, I think. And he actually

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used to teach at the Fish and Wildlife Service

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Agent Academy. He did a segment on survival,

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if any of our agents ever got into trouble. It's

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one of the more memorable aspects of my Academy

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experience, which we'll talk about a little bit.

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Corky, thanks so much for being with us. I really

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appreciate you joining us and being on the podcast

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today. Well, thanks for having me, Ed. I've been

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looking forward to this. Me too, honestly, in

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part because of the story we're going to talk

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about today, but also in part because I always

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enjoyed working with you when we were agents

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together. And you always had such a positive

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attitude about everything. And anytime I worked

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with you put me in a good mood. I can say the

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same. I always enjoyed our meetings except when

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you were doing your arm bending and that kind

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of thing. You get a little intense on that sometimes.

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That's true. That's right. Corky and I were both

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in the same region for a while. The U .S. Fish

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and Wildlife Service law enforcement is divided

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up into geographical regions and for a while

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we were both in what was then known as region

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one, which was basically the West Coast. And

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I was a defensive tactics instructor. So I got

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to I got to help agents learn how to land on

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the ground safely and bend each other's arms

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in funny directions, right? You always like ground

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fighting. That was the part I'm always excited

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about. Well, I have to say, you know, you're

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I know for sure that what we got as agents at

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the Academy, as far as you know, surviving in

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the in in remote situations or survival situations

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was nothing like what you taught as a seer instructor

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to US Air Force pilots. But I do have to say

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that the training you gave at the Academy class

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that I was in was very memorable. And although

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you know, it was abbreviated only I think of

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maybe a few days, I really left your training,

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feeling so confident that if something happened

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to me out in a remote area, I at least had a

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chance to get myself out of it. I still remember

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some of the lessons you taught us during that

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course and you're a great instructor as far as

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that goes. You left us feeling like, okay, at

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least we have a chance to make it out of this

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alive if something happens to us. So that was

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great. Well, it's like anything just get to where

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you're thinking about it, you know, that's that's

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part of the battle right there Exactly. Exactly.

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So listen what we're going to talk about today

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is a really interesting case and We have about

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an hour to talk about it. So I want to get right

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to it, but at the at the last part of your career

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you were based at in a single agent station in

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kind of south central washington an area known

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as tri cities uh can you just tell our listeners

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a little bit about where is tri cities what are

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the tri cities and what's it like there well

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the tri cities are three cities richland kennewick

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and pasco washington and they're all right near

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the confluence of the Columbia and the Snake

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River, where the Snake River runs into the Columbia

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River. One part of Washington people are familiar

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with is Walla Walla, and Tri -Cities is about

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40 miles west of Walla Walla, and about 120 miles

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south of Spokane, Washington. And it's in the,

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you might call it the desert area of Washington.

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It's near the Hanford Nuclear Project, where

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they developed the plutonium that Made the first

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atomic bombs during World War II. It's really

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a beautiful area. With the Columbia and the Snake

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River, there's a lot of wildlife resources in

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the area. Yeah, so typically what does a U .S.

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Fish and Wildlife Service Special Agent work

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on when they're assigned to that duty station

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in Tri -Cities? Well, I was the first officer

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there in quite some time. They opened the duty

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station there they at the when it was previously

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open it was a waterfowl post I mean waterfowl

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hunting was a huge sport in that area because

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they had a lot of refuges in the area and then

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there was a lot of grain and flooded flooded

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areas and so there was a lot of waterfowl but

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with the with Oregon there with The rest of Eastern

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Washington was basically wide open. There was

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no agent in Spokane for the first couple of years.

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I was in Tri -Cities. And so I covered everything

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from the Canadian border down to the Oregon border

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and sometimes down into Oregon. Lacey Act, Migratory

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Bird Treaty Act. There was two, three Indian

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reservations in there that had some, you know,

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significant wildlife resources. Work people were

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concerned about and so it was a busy busy post

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Yeah, you know that whole topic of the Native

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American reservations is Could be could be a

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whole episode in and of itself because of course

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Fish and Wildlife Services under interior and

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interior has a trust relationship with all of

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the recognized tribes in the United States So,

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you know anytime, you know, there's wildlife

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crime involving, you know taking place on a Native

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American reservation, it's pretty common for

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Fish and Wildlife Service agents to get involved

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and help the tribal police and deal with those

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issues, as well as, you know, help with conflicts

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with the states and things like that. There was

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some of those. But I did, I spent a significant

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amount of time on the Yakama and Caldwell Indian

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Reservations. Were you, were wolves making their

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way into Washington yet at that time, or was

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that a little early? No, that was when I first

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got there, not yet, but they showed up. They

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were there. They appeared in investigative subject

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matter the following year after this one case

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we're going to talk about. That was kind of the

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first wolf case in the state of Washington. That

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was in 2008. And one of the first you worked

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on one of the first wolf cases. Interesting.

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Yeah, wolves, of course, you know, it's a it's

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a complicated issue. But even though they're

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delisted in some states, Wyoming, I think Montana,

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Idaho, if they move out of those states, you

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know, and down here in California, there's a

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number of wolf packs, but they're still protected

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by the Endangered Species Act because they're

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outside of that delisted zone. which I think

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was the case there in Eastern Washington at that

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time. Eastern Washington, they were out, they

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became outside the zone, but initially they were

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inside the protected zone. And just to kind of

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go off on a tangent a little bit, this first

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case, these wolves came out of Canada and they

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naturally immigrated. Yeah, which happens. And

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once they cross the border, of course, they come

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under the protection of the endangered species

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act. That's correct. One of the things that I

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know you and I have in common is we like to work,

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we like to be in the office during the holidays

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and I still like to work at night because it's

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quiet, nobody's there, you can actually get reports

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done and you can get things done that you can't

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get done easily when there's a lot of people

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around or stories to tell. or to chit chat today.

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So I know around 2007, you were taking advantage

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of everybody being out of the office. You were

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in your office by yourself working on reports

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just before Christmas 2007. And you got a call.

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Tell us about this call you got. It was actually

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after Christmas two days after Christmas and

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I had the I had the office to myself I mean and

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this is I was in a refuge office at that time

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So there's you know 20 or 30 people there usually

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but it was I had it to myself and like you said

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You can get a lot done, right? But at this time

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I just happened to be there Kind of kick it back,

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I guess not even really working on anything in

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the phone or anything I picked it up, Fish and

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Wildlife Law Enforcement, and the gentleman identified

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himself as Special Agent Jack McLean with Immigration

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and Customs Enforcement and spoke in. Okay. Jack

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said, well, he said, you know, I have a question

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for you. And he said, can you bring a monkey

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into the United States? I got to stop you right

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there because that is a loaded question to get

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right after the holidays, right? Yes, it is.

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Yes, it is. And I kind of said, well, I said,

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probably not. Most likely not, in the context

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that you're telling me. And why don't you tell

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me the story? Yeah, of course. The next thing

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is, OK, what do you got, right? Yeah. And he

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said, well, he said he got a call from a young

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lady who was working at the fashion bug store,

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which is a clothing store in Spokane, Washington.

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And she said she was working as kind of a screener

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or greeter or whatever you call it where they

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come in the front door. A day or two before,

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it might have been two or three days. I can't

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remember the exact date, but a couple was carrying

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what appeared to be a baby and they went to the

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back and they... we're talking to one of the

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employees back there and all of a sudden she

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hears this squeaking noise and she says it didn't

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really sound like a baby but it piqued her interest

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and so she goes back and they have a small private

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monkey oh boy wearing a diaper and they're holding

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it talking to this this employee about it and

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she overheard them saying that Well, we brought

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it in from Thailand and that was illegal but

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now that it's here it's legal, you know Obviously

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they had some they had read something incorrectly

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but so she she became quite alarmed about it

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and Without going into too big of details, but

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apparently she called local police Washington

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Department of Fish and Wildlife the FBI in Washington

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DC, who actually referred her to Immigration

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and Customs Enforcement in Spokane. So she was,

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she was determined to get to the bottom of this.

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And maybe I can tell you why later, but I didn't

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find it until after vacation was over why she

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was so inspired. There's two aspects to this.

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One is, first of all, she was persistent, right?

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Like she didn't know who to call. So she starts

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with the police then probably the police referred

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her to the state wildlife agency. I assume she

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got, you know, a kind of a ho hum response because

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she kept they obviously didn't help her. But

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you know, I think this is actually a testament

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to the fact that you were dialed in with some

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of these other agencies. And it illustrates the

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very important point that fish and wildlife agents,

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especially when they're working in remote areas

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or in single agent stations, they have to be

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connected with other law enforcement agencies

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because the public often does not know that the

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US Fish and Wildlife Service even exists as a

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law enforcement agency. They don't know who to

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call. So if you're not connected in with Homeland

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Security or FBI or other agencies, nobody will

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know to call you, right? So thank goodness. Thank

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goodness you were connected in with Homeland

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Security Immigration Customs Enforcement so they

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knew to call you. You told me before, but this

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tipster had seen a movie recently, right? And

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that's why she was concerned. What was that movie?

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I forget the title. After the case was over,

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we contacted her and we visited for a while.

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She said she had rented the movie Outbreak. Outbreak.

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The night before this happened. Yeah, the one

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with Dustin Hoffman and they had to bomb the

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town or something because of the disease outbreak.

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She was inspired. The night before this happened.

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The night before. She went to Blockbuster Video.

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Some of your listeners may not know what Blockbuster

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Video is, but she rented the movie Outbreak.

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Well, and that movie is basically about a disease

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that gets into a very infectious disease that

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gets into the human population that originates

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in primates, actually, which there are diseases

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like that, such as Ebola. So then my next question

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to you is, you know, why is smuggling? Well,

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first of all, the other there's so many interesting

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things about this. Like, I love I love the fact

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that the people in the store just willingly tell

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a store clerk that it was illegal to bring it

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from Thailand, but now of course now it's legal.

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It's amazing what people will say out in public,

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but from your perspective as a Fish and Wildlife

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agent, there's multiple, I know there's gonna

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be multiple reasons for this, but why is smuggling

00:14:54.009 --> 00:14:56.110
a monkey or bringing a monkey into the United

00:14:56.110 --> 00:14:58.970
States a crime of concern for a U .S. Fish and

00:14:58.970 --> 00:15:02.360
Wildlife Service agent? Well, first off, they're

00:15:02.360 --> 00:15:04.360
protected under the, you know, they're listed

00:15:04.360 --> 00:15:07.240
as under CITES, Convention on International Trade

00:15:07.240 --> 00:15:10.960
and Endangered Species, as Appendix 2. And there

00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:15.059
has to be a permitting process in order to get

00:15:15.059 --> 00:15:18.139
them into the country. Monkeys are also dangerous

00:15:18.139 --> 00:15:22.379
animals, or primates are. And many states now

00:15:22.379 --> 00:15:25.899
have laws prohibiting possession, ownership,

00:15:26.279 --> 00:15:29.700
sale, transfer, or whatever, primates. And part

00:15:29.700 --> 00:15:32.360
of the reason for that is they do carry some

00:15:32.360 --> 00:15:37.799
very serious diseases. And, you know, and plus

00:15:37.799 --> 00:15:42.600
they're mean. They really are. And yeah, when

00:15:42.600 --> 00:15:46.000
this case got going, we found some fascinating

00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:51.559
emails that these people received about from

00:15:51.559 --> 00:15:56.379
renowned or well -known primate or monkey breeders

00:15:56.379 --> 00:16:00.059
who said, Why did you, how do you have a rhesus

00:16:00.059 --> 00:16:02.500
macaque? It'll only, or one of the emails in

00:16:02.500 --> 00:16:05.320
particular said, this will kill your daughter.

00:16:05.799 --> 00:16:08.559
This monkey will kill you. And I mean, they were

00:16:08.559 --> 00:16:11.440
really upset about it. And so they are, they're

00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:14.220
dangerous animals. And, you know, there's only

00:16:14.220 --> 00:16:17.879
certain reasons that you can bring one into the

00:16:17.879 --> 00:16:20.220
country. And that's for educational purposes,

00:16:20.240 --> 00:16:25.759
like a zoo or for, you know, research, medical

00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:28.740
research. Right. And monkeys have been in the

00:16:28.740 --> 00:16:31.820
news recently about regarding another US Fish

00:16:31.820 --> 00:16:34.159
and Wildlife Service case called Operation Long

00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:37.259
Tail Liberation. And that particular case involved

00:16:37.259 --> 00:16:40.740
an investigation into the illegal importation

00:16:40.740 --> 00:16:44.360
of primates for the medical research trade. And

00:16:44.360 --> 00:16:48.080
what you're dealing with is very different here.

00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:51.100
This is an individual who's bringing in a monkey,

00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:54.320
presumably as a pet, right? Rather than as a...

00:16:54.320 --> 00:16:57.570
Right. Yeah. Which... in many ways makes it more

00:16:57.570 --> 00:17:00.149
dangerous than the primates who are smuggled

00:17:00.149 --> 00:17:03.590
in for medical research because those primates

00:17:03.590 --> 00:17:06.269
at least are isolated away from the public. In

00:17:06.269 --> 00:17:09.529
this situation, you've got this person traipsing

00:17:09.529 --> 00:17:12.130
around Spokane, Washington with this live primate

00:17:12.130 --> 00:17:15.589
that maybe just weeks before had been living

00:17:15.589 --> 00:17:18.549
in a foreign country exposed to who knows what.

00:17:18.700 --> 00:17:22.119
Primates yeah primates can carry all kinds of

00:17:22.119 --> 00:17:25.559
diseases that can be transmitted to humans including

00:17:25.559 --> 00:17:30.599
you know tuberculosis Ebola of course is the

00:17:30.599 --> 00:17:34.660
big one but You know you name it there because

00:17:34.660 --> 00:17:36.640
they are primates and we're primates there are

00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:40.279
many diseases that co -infect all of both both

00:17:40.279 --> 00:17:44.480
species Chris so tell me about see how you've

00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:47.960
got this detail from this Homeland Security Special

00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:51.079
Agent. What do you do next? What's the next plan?

00:17:52.019 --> 00:17:54.380
We talked and decided we kind of put together

00:17:54.380 --> 00:17:57.460
an initial investigative plan because he was

00:17:57.460 --> 00:18:01.380
in Spokane. So he was right there where this

00:18:01.380 --> 00:18:04.299
event happened and presumably where the monkey

00:18:04.299 --> 00:18:08.279
was. I was in Tri -Cities, you know, 100 miles

00:18:08.279 --> 00:18:12.000
away or so. And so we agreed that Jack would...

00:18:12.039 --> 00:18:15.079
try to run down and identify who these people

00:18:15.079 --> 00:18:20.519
were. My job was going to be figure out, reach

00:18:20.519 --> 00:18:22.339
out to the U .S. Attorney's office, because it

00:18:22.339 --> 00:18:24.420
was more likely going to be a Fish and Wildlife

00:18:24.420 --> 00:18:27.900
case. So set up that, figure out what we're going

00:18:27.900 --> 00:18:33.140
to do with this monkey when we get it, and then

00:18:33.140 --> 00:18:36.720
try to figure out how we're going to deal with

00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:38.680
it. I mean, not just what we're going to do with

00:18:38.680 --> 00:18:42.680
it, how are we going to Are we going to euthanize

00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:45.000
it or are we going to keep it alive or what?

00:18:45.559 --> 00:18:48.160
And so that was going to be my role in this initially

00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:51.240
until we got these people identified. The other

00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:55.579
reason I asked Jack to do this is because him

00:18:55.579 --> 00:18:58.640
being in the Immigration and Customs Enforcement

00:18:58.640 --> 00:19:01.259
or Homeland Security, he would have access to

00:19:01.259 --> 00:19:06.359
a lot of databases. that we did not. You know,

00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:08.660
like National Crime Information Center, I didn't

00:19:08.660 --> 00:19:12.000
have a terminal in that refuge office, as well

00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:16.440
as some other local and statewide intel databases

00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:20.680
where it might be a little easier to identify

00:19:20.680 --> 00:19:25.359
these suspects. Yeah, Homeland Security has,

00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:28.079
because of their connection with US Immigration,

00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:32.059
they have access to incredible databases about

00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:35.640
basically who comes and goes from the United

00:19:35.640 --> 00:19:39.680
States right yeah they can kind of backtrack

00:19:39.680 --> 00:19:43.200
and figure out who arrived in the US at a particular

00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:46.099
date and even a particular time so that's a very

00:19:46.099 --> 00:19:49.200
valuable very valuable partner to have in an

00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:52.049
investigation like this for sure Huge, huge.

00:19:52.309 --> 00:19:54.329
I mean, I've tried to do that on my own as a

00:19:54.329 --> 00:19:56.049
Fish and Wildlife agent. You have to go through

00:19:56.049 --> 00:19:59.150
the subpoena process, and it's a nightmare. Whereas

00:19:59.150 --> 00:20:01.130
immigration, they've got it right there in front

00:20:01.130 --> 00:20:06.210
of them. And that was just a huge help to this

00:20:06.210 --> 00:20:10.410
case. So that's where this started. I was going

00:20:10.410 --> 00:20:13.750
to die at a park, Jack had a park. And when you

00:20:13.750 --> 00:20:15.410
reached out to the US Attorney's Office, what

00:20:15.410 --> 00:20:19.519
was their reaction to this case? Well, the first

00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:22.859
person I talked to was a guy with environmental

00:20:22.859 --> 00:20:25.319
crime section in Maine justice, you know, and

00:20:25.319 --> 00:20:29.579
Bob and and he's rest his soul, you know, but

00:20:29.579 --> 00:20:33.460
he he he and I had worked on things before and

00:20:33.460 --> 00:20:37.079
When I called Bob about it, I said told him the

00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:40.039
case and he said I said What do I do with this

00:20:40.039 --> 00:20:44.059
monkey? and he was like His comment was, I don't

00:20:44.059 --> 00:20:45.940
care if you put it in the freezer, but it doesn't

00:20:45.940 --> 00:20:50.380
need to be out in the public. Okay, that was

00:20:50.380 --> 00:20:53.920
one answer. Then I reached out to the Spokane,

00:20:53.940 --> 00:20:56.240
the Eastern District of Washington, and I talked

00:20:56.240 --> 00:21:01.160
to the intake officer there, and they assigned

00:21:01.160 --> 00:21:04.640
it to a U .S. attorney named Stephanie Van Maer,

00:21:05.079 --> 00:21:10.259
who is just a blessing. She consulted with the

00:21:10.259 --> 00:21:13.920
chief criminal deputy, and they said, this thing

00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:16.460
needs to stay alive because federal rules of

00:21:16.460 --> 00:21:19.519
criminal procedure require that you preserve

00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:24.420
evidence intact. If at all possible. And so they

00:21:24.420 --> 00:21:26.900
said, we got to keep this thing alive. And, you

00:21:26.900 --> 00:21:31.200
know, poor Stephanie, she caught a lot of grief

00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:33.619
over having a monkey smuggling case. You know,

00:21:33.619 --> 00:21:35.819
she came into her office and the thing was decorated

00:21:35.819 --> 00:21:41.069
with stuffed monkeys. Well, and you know, this

00:21:41.069 --> 00:21:43.430
is a good place to talk about two things. One

00:21:43.430 --> 00:21:47.190
is, in my experience over the years, there are

00:21:47.190 --> 00:21:50.029
times when you do have to destroy animals. For

00:21:50.029 --> 00:21:52.930
example, when they're invasive species come into

00:21:52.930 --> 00:21:55.849
the United States, those animals are often humanely

00:21:55.849 --> 00:21:59.190
euthanized and destroyed. But, you know, in my

00:21:59.190 --> 00:22:05.029
experience, if you can, it's important to try

00:22:05.029 --> 00:22:08.420
to save the animals that you end up confiscating,

00:22:09.240 --> 00:22:12.480
for just being a good person aspect of it. You

00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:18.099
want these animals to live. But also, there's

00:22:18.099 --> 00:22:20.960
a headline element to this too, right? The public

00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:24.500
doesn't want these animals killed. And so if

00:22:24.500 --> 00:22:27.039
you can avoid it, it's good. I had not ever considered

00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:29.920
the whole federal rules of criminal procedure,

00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:32.900
though, or the evidentiary rules about maintaining

00:22:32.900 --> 00:22:36.259
the evidence in its current state. That's really

00:22:36.259 --> 00:22:39.140
interesting. But we often do keep animals, you

00:22:39.140 --> 00:22:42.180
know, alive. Sometimes we have to care for them,

00:22:42.460 --> 00:22:45.299
but usually zoos or some other facility will

00:22:45.299 --> 00:22:47.579
care for them while we're waiting to go to trial.

00:22:48.140 --> 00:22:50.839
That's interesting. The other thing is, you pointed

00:22:50.839 --> 00:22:53.359
out that this assistant US attorney got a lot

00:22:53.359 --> 00:22:57.119
of, you know, fun loving grief about it from

00:22:57.119 --> 00:23:00.539
her office mates. But I remember hearing about

00:23:00.539 --> 00:23:02.700
this case as when it came up, you know, I was

00:23:02.700 --> 00:23:06.069
based in Los Angeles at this time. And our first

00:23:06.069 --> 00:23:08.630
reaction, all of the agents in LA who prided

00:23:08.630 --> 00:23:10.970
themselves on, you know, we work on international

00:23:10.970 --> 00:23:14.029
trafficking cases, we were like, we were like,

00:23:14.069 --> 00:23:17.869
what's Corky Roberts doing with a smuggling case

00:23:17.869 --> 00:23:22.089
up in Washington? Yeah, we were like, we were

00:23:22.089 --> 00:23:24.789
so surprised. And, you know, it's not the usual

00:23:24.789 --> 00:23:27.410
kind of case you deal with in a smaller area

00:23:27.410 --> 00:23:30.569
like that, especially not, there's no international

00:23:30.569 --> 00:23:33.410
airport there that necessarily goes to and from

00:23:33.410 --> 00:23:36.509
Spokane, like, Like down in LA, where we see

00:23:36.509 --> 00:23:39.349
a lot of art to and from Thailand, down in LA,

00:23:39.410 --> 00:23:41.470
we see a lot of people coming and going from

00:23:41.470 --> 00:23:44.329
Southeast Asia. It was just funny because it's

00:23:44.329 --> 00:23:47.190
like, what's a monkey case going on? Why is there

00:23:47.190 --> 00:23:49.190
a monkey smuggling case going on in Washington?

00:23:50.269 --> 00:23:52.430
I think once Stephanie got her teeth into it,

00:23:52.430 --> 00:23:54.990
she's like, I'm not giving this one out. She

00:23:54.990 --> 00:23:57.849
said, I've caught enough grief on this. And I

00:23:57.849 --> 00:23:59.890
think she actually enjoyed it after a while.

00:24:00.509 --> 00:24:02.450
But it was a challenge. Don't worry about it.

00:24:02.509 --> 00:24:06.410
Yeah, absolutely. I'm sure she did. OK, so now,

00:24:06.509 --> 00:24:08.609
rather than working with a Department of Justice

00:24:08.609 --> 00:24:11.210
lawyer out of DC, you're working with a local

00:24:11.210 --> 00:24:13.990
assistant US attorney at the US attorney's office

00:24:13.990 --> 00:24:17.569
there in Spokane. She's getting ribbed by her

00:24:17.569 --> 00:24:20.970
colleagues, but she's on board. What happened

00:24:20.970 --> 00:24:23.470
next? Did you figure out who this person was?

00:24:23.609 --> 00:24:25.890
How did you figure out who this person was that

00:24:25.890 --> 00:24:27.990
went into the story? We did. I mean, I think

00:24:27.990 --> 00:24:32.339
the first thing is, yeah, we did. Jack? He went

00:24:32.339 --> 00:24:35.339
and interviewed people at this fashion bug store

00:24:35.339 --> 00:24:38.579
and they were very hesitant, but you know, I

00:24:38.579 --> 00:24:42.880
think once he convinced them that this is a federal

00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:46.359
matter, they started to open up a little bit.

00:24:46.920 --> 00:24:50.259
And he, just a very short order, he got the suspects

00:24:50.259 --> 00:24:55.480
identified in the Spokane area. And Gypsy Lawson

00:24:55.480 --> 00:24:58.339
and James Pratt were the couple that came into

00:24:58.339 --> 00:25:04.279
the store that day. Do you know how he figured

00:25:04.279 --> 00:25:07.859
out it was Gypsy Lawson and her boyfriend Jack?

00:25:08.579 --> 00:25:11.920
It was a phone number. He got a phone number

00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:14.420
and ran that through this database and it came

00:25:14.420 --> 00:25:18.440
back to this James Pratt. And I think eventually

00:25:18.440 --> 00:25:23.519
then he... I remember correctly, one of the clerks

00:25:23.519 --> 00:25:26.420
at the stores knew that it was Gypsy Lawson.

00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:31.880
And then he started doing the homework and running

00:25:31.880 --> 00:25:35.579
the immigration databases and things and figured

00:25:35.579 --> 00:25:39.720
out that Gypsy had traveled to Thailand first

00:25:39.720 --> 00:25:45.160
part of November. And then Jack identified Gypsy's

00:25:45.160 --> 00:25:48.400
mom as going with her or Gypsy going with her

00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:51.460
mother to Thailand. And they went there the first

00:25:51.460 --> 00:25:53.160
quarter of November and came back right around

00:25:53.160 --> 00:25:56.079
the end of November. They left from Spokane,

00:25:56.140 --> 00:25:59.480
went to Korea, then to Thailand, and they came

00:25:59.480 --> 00:26:02.920
back through LA and then rented a car and drove

00:26:02.920 --> 00:26:08.119
to Spokane. Oh, strange. That is interesting.

00:26:08.299 --> 00:26:11.400
Why would that happen? Yeah. Why not fly up from

00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:15.079
LA to Spokane? And I have to tell you another

00:26:15.079 --> 00:26:17.759
as soon as we found out. So here we are the agents

00:26:17.759 --> 00:26:21.779
in Los Angeles. So first thing we find out is

00:26:21.779 --> 00:26:23.680
Corky Roberts is working on a monkey smuggling

00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:26.160
case in Washington. That's unusual. And then

00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:29.799
we find out his suspect came through LA and we

00:26:29.799 --> 00:26:35.420
didn't catch her. You know, that was, we were,

00:26:35.420 --> 00:26:37.440
we were watching this case with great interest,

00:26:37.579 --> 00:26:39.460
Corky. I got to tell you down in our office.

00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:44.339
Okay. So, so now you've got a gypsy Lawson and

00:26:44.339 --> 00:26:48.759
her mom identified as having traveled to Thailand.

00:26:50.420 --> 00:26:53.759
Um, now what, what do you do next? Well, we had

00:26:53.759 --> 00:26:55.859
to figure out what to do. We knew we were working

00:26:55.859 --> 00:26:59.579
on a warrant to find out once we figured out

00:26:59.579 --> 00:27:03.000
where this monkey was. And so we, found Gypsy's

00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:06.000
residence, and then we identified Fran's residence,

00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:10.180
which Fran Ogren was her mother, up in Northport,

00:27:10.740 --> 00:27:12.299
Washington, kind of in the middle of nowhere.

00:27:13.839 --> 00:27:16.480
And, you know, where is the monkey? Is it in

00:27:16.480 --> 00:27:18.440
Northport or is it in Colville? So we were working

00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:20.160
on warrants for both of them. But, you know,

00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:21.980
in the meantime, we still had to figure out what

00:27:21.980 --> 00:27:27.180
to do with this thing. Right. Because I contacted

00:27:27.180 --> 00:27:30.599
the Centers for Disease Control to find out.

00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:33.720
What are we dealing with? Right. Because you've

00:27:33.720 --> 00:27:37.279
got, that is one thing unlike a lot of law enforcement

00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:39.220
officers, fish and wildlife agents, a lot of

00:27:39.220 --> 00:27:43.299
our evidence is alive and it needs to be fed.

00:27:43.640 --> 00:27:45.940
And it could be dangerous for a lot of reasons.

00:27:46.900 --> 00:27:49.220
And that's not something that most law enforcement

00:27:49.220 --> 00:27:51.400
officers have to deal with, is live evidence.

00:27:51.460 --> 00:27:54.660
No, that's true. And you can't just put it in

00:27:54.660 --> 00:27:59.759
a shelf and lock her in. And you've got not only

00:27:59.759 --> 00:28:02.140
public safety issues now because it's a primate,

00:28:02.220 --> 00:28:05.140
but you've got safety issues for you. and all

00:28:05.140 --> 00:28:07.579
of the other law enforcement officers who are

00:28:07.579 --> 00:28:09.380
going to work with you on a potential warrant.

00:28:09.440 --> 00:28:10.720
When you're talking about a warrant, you're talking

00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:13.140
about you're trying to get probable cause, develop

00:28:13.140 --> 00:28:14.960
probable cause to get search warrants, right?

00:28:15.380 --> 00:28:18.019
Right. So what did you learn when you called

00:28:18.019 --> 00:28:21.220
CDC? What was their reaction to this call? This

00:28:21.220 --> 00:28:24.039
was a very interesting conversation. I called

00:28:24.039 --> 00:28:27.559
up and I got ahold of a, you know, communicable

00:28:27.559 --> 00:28:30.059
disease specialist and I can't remember her name

00:28:30.059 --> 00:28:33.240
now, of course, but I explained the situation

00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:38.380
to her and she said, Oh, she said, uh, how long

00:28:38.380 --> 00:28:42.160
is this primate been in the country? And I said,

00:28:42.359 --> 00:28:45.799
yeah, four weeks, maybe four to five weeks. Right.

00:28:46.380 --> 00:28:48.980
She said, okay, that rules out phyloviruses.

00:28:49.480 --> 00:28:51.420
And I'm like, okay, you have to, you have to

00:28:51.420 --> 00:28:53.019
speak English. I don't know what to talk about.

00:28:53.099 --> 00:28:55.569
She said, Well, like Ebola, you know what that

00:28:55.569 --> 00:28:58.349
is? I said, yeah, I've heard of that. And I said,

00:28:58.589 --> 00:29:01.410
so how do you know it rules out phyloviruses?

00:29:01.470 --> 00:29:03.170
And she said, well, because there'd be dead people

00:29:03.170 --> 00:29:08.589
everywhere by now. Oh, my God. That must have

00:29:08.589 --> 00:29:10.789
sent a shiver down your spine, right? I said,

00:29:11.029 --> 00:29:17.069
now you have my attention. So I said, OK, so

00:29:17.069 --> 00:29:19.029
now that we can breathe that sign of relief,

00:29:19.210 --> 00:29:21.130
you know what else? And she went through a list

00:29:21.130 --> 00:29:25.450
of things. that stick with me was tuberculosis

00:29:25.450 --> 00:29:28.789
was one and uh then the herpes herpes viruses

00:29:28.789 --> 00:29:31.869
which you know crossing the human boundary can

00:29:31.869 --> 00:29:35.069
lead to encephalitis and you know all kinds of

00:29:35.069 --> 00:29:38.670
horrible things so you know we were worried we

00:29:38.670 --> 00:29:40.329
didn't know if we were going to have to talk

00:29:40.329 --> 00:29:45.589
to everybody on the plane you know how are we

00:29:45.589 --> 00:29:48.309
going to deal with this and so uh we weren't

00:29:48.309 --> 00:29:52.890
real sure and so Got that figured out and then

00:29:52.890 --> 00:29:58.490
we said, what? Okay, so we're talking about doing

00:29:58.490 --> 00:30:03.869
search warrants, seize a live primate, and we

00:30:03.869 --> 00:30:05.890
have to be prepared for things that we're not

00:30:05.890 --> 00:30:08.250
normally prepared for when we go do search warrants.

00:30:08.369 --> 00:30:11.049
You know, search warrants, okay, bad guys and

00:30:11.049 --> 00:30:13.490
edge weapons and firearms and you know, that

00:30:13.490 --> 00:30:16.230
kind of thing. You know, drugs, fentanyl exposure.

00:30:16.670 --> 00:30:19.470
This is like, do we go in with Tyvek suits on?

00:30:20.289 --> 00:30:24.430
How do we deal with it? When we get it, what

00:30:24.430 --> 00:30:27.329
do we do with it? Do we carry it out and put

00:30:27.329 --> 00:30:30.730
it in the pickup? No. Put it in a dog carrier

00:30:30.730 --> 00:30:34.009
or what do you do with it? Yeah. I call vets,

00:30:34.170 --> 00:30:36.190
I call the zoos, I call the number of places.

00:30:36.509 --> 00:30:39.450
Could you keep this thing? Nobody wanted it in

00:30:39.450 --> 00:30:44.609
Seattle. Nobody wanted it. I think CDC finally

00:30:44.609 --> 00:30:48.119
referred me to quarantined, primate quarantined

00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:50.200
until the University of California at Davis.

00:30:51.640 --> 00:30:56.759
And I talked to them and got ahold of them and

00:30:56.759 --> 00:31:01.079
they said, yeah, we can help you. We can do this

00:31:01.079 --> 00:31:04.160
for a fee, of course. And this brought in a whole

00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:07.059
new level of bureaucracy and bureaucratic involvement,

00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:09.680
which we can go into or not. Oh, yeah, we got

00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:12.759
to go into it because this is part of what it

00:31:12.759 --> 00:31:16.640
takes. How do I get it? Yeah. How do I get it

00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:19.200
there? How do I get this thing to you? I can't

00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:21.240
put it in my pick up. I can't put it on Alaska

00:31:21.240 --> 00:31:25.880
Airlines. And she said, give this guy a call.

00:31:26.079 --> 00:31:30.599
OK. And so I called up this number and the guy

00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:33.740
answered the phone. Duncan with furry freighters,

00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:37.579
furry freighters, furry freighters. And I'm like.

00:31:39.339 --> 00:31:41.180
OK, you can tell he was driving down the road.

00:31:41.220 --> 00:31:42.759
You could hear the wind noise in the background.

00:31:42.900 --> 00:31:46.190
I said, OK. Prairie freighters. Do you transfer

00:31:46.190 --> 00:31:49.549
transport primates? That's all I do. That's all

00:31:49.549 --> 00:31:52.269
he does. I said, you have a job to transport

00:31:52.269 --> 00:31:55.190
primates. He said, yes. And I said, well, I got

00:31:55.190 --> 00:31:59.089
a story for it. Let me tell you a story. I told

00:31:59.089 --> 00:32:03.329
him a story and I said, uh, sometime here in

00:32:03.329 --> 00:32:05.130
the next couple of weeks, we're going to need

00:32:05.130 --> 00:32:07.970
you to pick up a primate and spoke in Washington.

00:32:08.809 --> 00:32:11.690
He said, give me a few days notice and call me

00:32:11.690 --> 00:32:15.140
with an address and I will be there. With a trailer

00:32:15.140 --> 00:32:18.440
that's equipped to transport quarantined or non

00:32:18.440 --> 00:32:23.640
-quarantined primates. Wow. Yeah, and it was,

00:32:23.640 --> 00:32:25.799
I was stunned. First of all, I couldn't believe

00:32:25.799 --> 00:32:29.079
somebody actually has a job transporting unquarantined

00:32:29.079 --> 00:32:34.160
primates, but he does. Exactly. But also, whew,

00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:38.339
what a relief, right? Oh yeah, it was until I

00:32:38.339 --> 00:32:40.240
tried to get permission to spend the money to

00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:45.240
do it. Yeah. So that was another, that's a whole

00:32:45.240 --> 00:32:48.220
nother topic about, you know, sometimes for the

00:32:48.220 --> 00:32:52.640
most part during my career, I, we had excellent

00:32:52.640 --> 00:32:55.799
supervisory agents, you know, who understood

00:32:55.799 --> 00:32:58.720
what it took to do the job, but every once in

00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:03.039
a while that was not the case. And I, you know,

00:33:03.039 --> 00:33:05.019
I've talked to more than a few agents and I know

00:33:05.019 --> 00:33:07.420
during the latter part of my career, I spent

00:33:07.420 --> 00:33:10.240
a lot of time, I spent as much time trying to

00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:14.299
outthink And out maneuver the regional special

00:33:14.299 --> 00:33:18.880
agent in charge as I did bad guys, you know This

00:33:18.880 --> 00:33:23.400
is frustrating but I Assume at some point you

00:33:23.400 --> 00:33:26.339
explained and and usually what got the attention

00:33:26.339 --> 00:33:28.859
of senior management was when you explained to

00:33:28.859 --> 00:33:31.859
them The alternative right and the alternative

00:33:31.859 --> 00:33:33.779
is you're gonna have a really bad headline on

00:33:33.779 --> 00:33:36.380
your hands If you don't pony up the money to

00:33:36.380 --> 00:33:40.009
help me safely move this primate And I assume

00:33:40.009 --> 00:33:42.250
that's what happened here, right? You explained

00:33:42.250 --> 00:33:45.329
the alternative consequences. That and I explained

00:33:45.329 --> 00:33:46.690
to them that they were going to have to call

00:33:46.690 --> 00:33:48.730
the U .S. Attorney's Office and explain to them.

00:33:49.289 --> 00:33:53.859
And they're like, oh, we can't, yeah. Okay, I

00:33:53.859 --> 00:33:56.619
guess so. Maybe we can have a bake sale or something

00:33:56.619 --> 00:33:58.200
and we can keep the money or we can make the

00:33:58.200 --> 00:34:00.140
money to do this with a bake sale or something.

00:34:00.619 --> 00:34:03.859
I'm just making that up. Yeah, that's sometimes

00:34:03.859 --> 00:34:07.460
that's how they acted. But when you think about,

00:34:07.759 --> 00:34:10.599
you know, you've got the animal care issue first,

00:34:10.679 --> 00:34:12.940
but you also have the public safety issue. It's

00:34:12.940 --> 00:34:15.860
not money. Money should never be an issue on

00:34:15.860 --> 00:34:20.809
that one. You have to do it. So okay, so that's

00:34:20.809 --> 00:34:22.949
relief. You've got the you've got a plan now

00:34:22.949 --> 00:34:24.690
for how you're going to deal with this primate.

00:34:24.829 --> 00:34:27.389
And you know, I think this is a good opportunity

00:34:27.389 --> 00:34:31.510
to point something out. This was 2007 2008 ish,

00:34:31.550 --> 00:34:37.929
right? So, you know, at that time, the way that

00:34:37.929 --> 00:34:40.210
US Fish and Wildlife Service agents across the

00:34:40.210 --> 00:34:43.309
country and wildlife inspectors dealt with live

00:34:43.309 --> 00:34:46.550
wildlife that they had confiscated, it was very

00:34:47.519 --> 00:34:51.619
grassroots, ad hoc. It really came down to who

00:34:51.619 --> 00:34:54.900
you knew, right? So in LA, we had really good

00:34:54.900 --> 00:34:57.320
relationships with the San Diego Zoo, the LA

00:34:57.320 --> 00:35:02.920
Zoo, different, you know, ACA approved animal

00:35:02.920 --> 00:35:06.699
care facilities. And it really came down to I

00:35:06.699 --> 00:35:09.349
happen to have those phone numbers in my phone

00:35:09.349 --> 00:35:12.570
and if I seized a live animal I knew who to call

00:35:12.570 --> 00:35:15.849
and say hey can you can you do me a favor basically

00:35:15.849 --> 00:35:18.710
can you hang on to this animal maybe for weeks

00:35:18.710 --> 00:35:23.309
maybe for months while we process the case now

00:35:23.309 --> 00:35:26.130
thanks to an agent you and I both know named

00:35:26.130 --> 00:35:28.710
Aaron Dean who was later the resident agent in

00:35:28.710 --> 00:35:32.650
charge in Los Angeles toward the end of her career

00:35:32.650 --> 00:35:36.800
she kind of pioneered this live Live Wildlife

00:35:36.800 --> 00:35:42.579
Confiscation Network, and she coordinated with

00:35:42.579 --> 00:35:45.920
the AZA, I always forget, Association of Zoological,

00:35:46.539 --> 00:35:48.599
I always forget what AZA stands for, but it's

00:35:48.599 --> 00:35:53.739
the accreditation organization for zoos. She

00:35:53.739 --> 00:35:56.860
coordinated with them so that there is now in

00:35:56.860 --> 00:36:03.130
place a system, a process for how Zoos are committed

00:36:03.130 --> 00:36:05.630
now to helping US Fish and Wildlife Service and

00:36:05.630 --> 00:36:09.429
other agencies house and deal with confiscated

00:36:09.429 --> 00:36:12.449
live wildlife. But so now at least there's a

00:36:12.449 --> 00:36:14.469
system. So a brand new agent who doesn't have

00:36:14.469 --> 00:36:17.849
contacts, there's a way for them to access this

00:36:17.849 --> 00:36:20.289
live wildlife confiscation network and find a

00:36:20.289 --> 00:36:23.230
home for their animal without a whole lot of

00:36:23.230 --> 00:36:26.550
work on their part. But back. prior to this,

00:36:26.989 --> 00:36:29.230
you know, thanks, thank you, Aaron Dean. But

00:36:29.230 --> 00:36:31.590
prior to this, at the time, at the time you're

00:36:31.590 --> 00:36:33.590
dealing with this primate, none of that existed.

00:36:33.849 --> 00:36:37.070
And you, you, Corky Roberts, in addition to doing

00:36:37.070 --> 00:36:39.949
your investigation of this crime, had to find

00:36:39.949 --> 00:36:42.969
a home for this primate. And that's, it's hard

00:36:42.969 --> 00:36:45.090
to articulate how much work that is and how stressful

00:36:45.090 --> 00:36:47.849
it is. That was tough. That really was tough.

00:36:47.969 --> 00:36:51.090
Very stressful. Okay, so now you got it worked

00:36:51.090 --> 00:36:55.969
out. How did it, how did it come or how did the

00:36:55.969 --> 00:36:57.670
probable cause develop for your search warrants?

00:36:57.849 --> 00:37:01.469
Did you? Oh, we just, we had lots of probable

00:37:01.469 --> 00:37:05.329
cause by this time. Now, Jack McLean, the ICE

00:37:05.329 --> 00:37:09.309
investigator, he actually contacted James Pratt,

00:37:09.429 --> 00:37:13.969
the gypsy, and had them meet him down at the

00:37:13.969 --> 00:37:16.150
Homeland Security office. And he told them right

00:37:16.150 --> 00:37:18.150
up front. He says, I understand you guys have

00:37:18.150 --> 00:37:21.590
a primate that you brought in. Yeah, I confronted

00:37:21.590 --> 00:37:25.510
him. Well, he confronted them off about and they

00:37:25.510 --> 00:37:28.289
he wanted to interview them separately and Jimmy

00:37:28.289 --> 00:37:30.769
wanted to be present during gypsy's interview

00:37:30.769 --> 00:37:33.510
and so He wouldn't let him so that was pretty

00:37:33.510 --> 00:37:35.510
much the end of the interview. But during that

00:37:35.510 --> 00:37:39.250
process when Jack first reached out to James

00:37:39.250 --> 00:37:43.269
Pratt and James told him that oh, no, this is

00:37:43.269 --> 00:37:45.889
all a misunderstanding We actually bought this

00:37:45.889 --> 00:37:48.289
monkey in Southern, California from a dog breeder

00:37:49.990 --> 00:37:53.050
Well, they've admitted they have the monkey,

00:37:53.329 --> 00:37:55.550
right? Perfect. Yeah, and they also have a false

00:37:55.550 --> 00:37:57.349
statement. Now we have a false statement, too.

00:37:57.530 --> 00:38:00.090
At least we eventually came up with one. False

00:38:00.090 --> 00:38:02.469
statement, and that's the classic Martha Stewart

00:38:02.469 --> 00:38:04.489
crime. If you lie to a federal agent, that's

00:38:04.489 --> 00:38:08.349
a felony. Yep, it is. And it's a great tool.

00:38:09.389 --> 00:38:13.590
So we ended up, we wrote up search warrants for

00:38:13.590 --> 00:38:19.510
both Gypsy's house in Spokane and her mom's dad's

00:38:19.510 --> 00:38:22.590
house or stepdad's house up in North Port, Washington.

00:38:23.170 --> 00:38:25.789
We had to do simultaneous search warrants on

00:38:25.789 --> 00:38:28.170
these two places because by this time, they knew

00:38:28.170 --> 00:38:31.389
we were looking for this monkey. That thing could

00:38:31.389 --> 00:38:33.829
disappear, easy. Yeah, they could have turned

00:38:33.829 --> 00:38:35.469
it loose. They could have done a lot of things,

00:38:35.750 --> 00:38:37.909
but we were fortunate that it did not happen,

00:38:37.909 --> 00:38:40.369
but we thought maybe they don't know we know

00:38:40.369 --> 00:38:43.530
about. mom up in Spokane or up in Northport.

00:38:43.869 --> 00:38:46.690
And so maybe it's up there. And so we ended up

00:38:46.690 --> 00:38:49.889
getting warrants from both places. Perfect. Perfect.

00:38:49.949 --> 00:38:52.690
So when you do this warrant, you had talked earlier

00:38:52.690 --> 00:38:55.190
about, holy cow, what do we do? Do we wear a

00:38:55.190 --> 00:38:58.110
Tyvek suit? What did you decide? How did you

00:38:58.110 --> 00:39:00.909
decide to handle the safety issues? That was

00:39:00.909 --> 00:39:05.789
a very interesting part, you know, because we

00:39:05.789 --> 00:39:08.010
always do the search warrant briefings with our

00:39:08.010 --> 00:39:11.789
teams. And so we had homeland security. We had

00:39:11.789 --> 00:39:18.110
Fish and Wildlife, basically the entire Washington

00:39:18.110 --> 00:39:20.889
and Idaho contingent were there for this thing,

00:39:20.949 --> 00:39:24.750
as well as state officers. And so we had this

00:39:24.750 --> 00:39:29.730
briefing and talked about the issues that we

00:39:29.730 --> 00:39:31.369
were dealing with. And I remember one of the

00:39:31.369 --> 00:39:34.909
Homeland Security agents said, this is the first

00:39:34.909 --> 00:39:37.349
time in my career that I'm ever going into a

00:39:37.349 --> 00:39:39.449
search warrant with a shotgun loaded with bird

00:39:39.449 --> 00:39:47.769
shots. And the purpose of that was what? We weren't

00:39:47.769 --> 00:39:49.230
sure. We weren't sure if this thing was going

00:39:49.230 --> 00:39:52.329
to be hanging from a curtain or a tack or start

00:39:52.329 --> 00:39:54.809
scratching and clawing and biting. We just weren't

00:39:54.809 --> 00:39:57.030
sure what kind of hazard we were dealing with.

00:39:57.409 --> 00:40:00.110
That's always stuck with me going into a search

00:40:00.110 --> 00:40:03.489
warrant with bird shot. Because there could be

00:40:03.489 --> 00:40:06.210
a crazed monkey running around the house. Yeah.

00:40:06.889 --> 00:40:10.150
And you just didn't know. And it's no joke. I

00:40:10.150 --> 00:40:13.269
mean, even though macaques are fairly small,

00:40:13.510 --> 00:40:16.449
you know, I think their canine teeth are two

00:40:16.449 --> 00:40:20.269
inches plus long. They're very dirty. Their hands

00:40:20.269 --> 00:40:22.289
and their feet are extremely dirty. They often

00:40:22.289 --> 00:40:24.630
have their own urine and feces on their hands

00:40:24.630 --> 00:40:27.889
and feet. So even a fingernail scratch from a

00:40:27.889 --> 00:40:30.579
primate like a macaque. kit could be deadly.

00:40:30.920 --> 00:40:33.539
It could introduce a really infectious disease

00:40:33.539 --> 00:40:36.659
into whoever got scratched. So yeah, I don't

00:40:36.659 --> 00:40:38.800
blame you for taking a shotgun with birdshot

00:40:38.800 --> 00:40:41.280
in it just in case you have to shoot in a wild

00:40:41.280 --> 00:40:47.099
attack. So what about the Tyvek suits? How'd

00:40:47.099 --> 00:40:50.119
you handle your potential exposure to airborne?

00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:54.599
We did we did we did have masks. Okay, we had

00:40:55.519 --> 00:40:57.780
like booties on and that kind of thing, you know,

00:40:57.880 --> 00:41:00.920
but we didn't do the whole Tyvek suit thing.

00:41:01.159 --> 00:41:03.920
It just did a little bit too, too much. Yeah.

00:41:03.920 --> 00:41:06.679
He got weapons and all kinds of things you got

00:41:06.679 --> 00:41:10.760
to have. And it just seemed a little bit too

00:41:10.760 --> 00:41:15.579
complicated to try to do that. Yeah. We were

00:41:15.579 --> 00:41:17.400
hoping that we didn't have to worry that this

00:41:17.400 --> 00:41:19.820
was an oversight that we weren't going to regret.

00:41:19.920 --> 00:41:26.039
So they're not an oversight. Everything you do

00:41:26.039 --> 00:41:28.739
in law enforcement is a risk, and it's a calculated

00:41:28.739 --> 00:41:31.880
risk, and you try to minimize risk, but there's

00:41:31.880 --> 00:41:35.440
always a risk, right? So you have to make some

00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:39.079
decisions. And so now you've got a multi -agency

00:41:39.079 --> 00:41:41.119
team. You have US Fish and Wildlife Service agents.

00:41:41.300 --> 00:41:44.860
You've got Homeland Security or ICE agents, plus

00:41:44.860 --> 00:41:48.000
uniformed state wildlife officers from the wildlife

00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:49.690
department. or Washington Department of Fish

00:41:49.690 --> 00:41:52.530
and Wildlife. You're going to hit both houses

00:41:52.530 --> 00:41:54.949
at the same time, I assume, right? So that evidence

00:41:54.949 --> 00:41:58.829
doesn't disappear. Correct. So that's another

00:41:58.829 --> 00:42:01.230
difficult thing is to coordinate teams that have

00:42:01.230 --> 00:42:03.469
to execute warrants at the same time. That's

00:42:03.469 --> 00:42:08.329
a lot of people coordination. It was. And it

00:42:08.329 --> 00:42:11.190
was difficult because in Northport where the

00:42:11.190 --> 00:42:14.150
team that I was on with at Fran's house, The

00:42:14.150 --> 00:42:17.570
cell coverage is very spotty, but we made it

00:42:17.570 --> 00:42:25.210
happen. It worked out. We all hit the place at

00:42:25.210 --> 00:42:28.550
the same time and we had no problem getting in.

00:42:28.730 --> 00:42:33.869
They came to the door up in North Park. We're

00:42:33.869 --> 00:42:38.090
not happy to see us, but they were cooperative.

00:42:41.030 --> 00:42:43.030
combat everything like that. I mean, they were

00:42:43.030 --> 00:42:45.670
an elderly couple. That's the North Forks, the

00:42:45.670 --> 00:42:49.690
mom's house, right? That was mom's house. And

00:42:49.690 --> 00:42:53.210
the house in Spokane, they had a little more

00:42:53.210 --> 00:42:55.429
complication there because it had like a big

00:42:55.429 --> 00:43:00.389
screen metal door on it. Okay. And knocked on

00:43:00.389 --> 00:43:03.110
the door and Gypsy would not come to the door.

00:43:03.489 --> 00:43:06.730
She would not answer the door. And finally they

00:43:06.730 --> 00:43:10.519
got ahold of Jimmy. who was working or out somewhere.

00:43:10.780 --> 00:43:13.059
And he called her and said, you need to open

00:43:13.059 --> 00:43:15.400
the door right now. And so she finally let him

00:43:15.400 --> 00:43:17.719
in. Yeah. I mean, the next step is you're going

00:43:17.719 --> 00:43:21.139
to, you're going to forcibly open the door. Right.

00:43:21.800 --> 00:43:24.099
Yeah. Okay. So which warrant were you on? Were

00:43:24.099 --> 00:43:26.260
you up North Fork at the mom's house or down?

00:43:26.599 --> 00:43:29.480
I was in North Fork at the mom's house. Correct.

00:43:30.139 --> 00:43:32.559
Okay. And Steve Furr was the team leader on the

00:43:32.559 --> 00:43:37.380
one in. Spokane. Okay. Yeah. Steve was a guest

00:43:37.380 --> 00:43:40.719
of ours two weeks ago. So that's awesome. Uh,

00:43:40.719 --> 00:43:42.559
okay. So tell me about that. What happened? You

00:43:42.559 --> 00:43:45.920
go in, uh, what do you see up on your, your warrant

00:43:45.920 --> 00:43:49.320
there in the North part? In the North part, we,

00:43:49.320 --> 00:43:52.059
we actually sat down with Fran and she said,

00:43:52.739 --> 00:43:55.719
the monkey is not here. Okay. Okay. So, but we

00:43:55.719 --> 00:43:58.420
cleared the house and you know, did whatever

00:43:58.420 --> 00:44:00.460
we're supposed to do. And like I said, they were

00:44:00.460 --> 00:44:05.000
pretty cooperative. Um, we ended up, seizing

00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:07.699
a significant amount of records from French.

00:44:07.699 --> 00:44:11.440
He was a pretty notorious diary keeper. She kept

00:44:11.440 --> 00:44:13.760
a pretty detailed diary of their whole trip,

00:44:14.079 --> 00:44:17.639
as well as a computer with pictures and emails

00:44:17.639 --> 00:44:21.099
and all kinds of things on it. So it was a treasure

00:44:21.099 --> 00:44:27.699
trove of evidence in this case. But she lauded

00:44:27.699 --> 00:44:30.559
up. She finally said, no, I think I probably

00:44:30.559 --> 00:44:36.099
need to consult with a term in. We respected

00:44:36.099 --> 00:44:39.639
her wishes. Yep. Yep. That's one of those constitutional

00:44:39.639 --> 00:44:42.039
things. If somebody is kind of in a custodial

00:44:42.039 --> 00:44:44.260
environment and they request an attorney, all

00:44:44.260 --> 00:44:47.460
questioning stops. No question, right? Yep. What

00:44:47.460 --> 00:44:51.400
happened down at the Spokane warrant? Spokane

00:44:51.400 --> 00:44:53.159
warrant, like I said, they had a hard time getting

00:44:53.159 --> 00:44:55.659
in the door and they finally did. And they went

00:44:55.659 --> 00:45:00.159
through the house one or two times. No monkey.

00:45:00.159 --> 00:45:02.900
They couldn't find it. That's kind of a no -shit

00:45:02.900 --> 00:45:06.139
moment. Yeah, that is. Yeah, we've all been there,

00:45:06.239 --> 00:45:09.980
you know, in some way or another. But they finally,

00:45:10.460 --> 00:45:12.900
Steve, I think he sat down with Gypsy and said,

00:45:14.559 --> 00:45:17.260
where is it? And it was in the dog's kennel.

00:45:17.300 --> 00:45:20.519
It was there. In the kennel crate with the dog.

00:45:22.900 --> 00:45:26.659
Right there in Plainview. Right there in Plainview.

00:45:26.760 --> 00:45:28.940
And I remember Steve told the story that he's...

00:45:28.969 --> 00:45:31.130
sitting there in the bedroom and he's like, what

00:45:31.130 --> 00:45:32.670
in the world, you know, what are we going to

00:45:32.670 --> 00:45:36.670
do? And the bottom drawer of the dresser comes

00:45:36.670 --> 00:45:40.710
out on its own. It opens and a skunk gets out,

00:45:41.190 --> 00:45:43.590
crawls out of the skunk, crawls out of the dresser

00:45:43.590 --> 00:45:45.449
and goes over in the corner of the house and

00:45:45.449 --> 00:45:48.289
pees and then goes back and gets in the dresser

00:45:48.289 --> 00:45:51.289
drawer. And he said, he was like, this is, this

00:45:51.289 --> 00:45:54.630
is, this is a This is surreal. This can't be

00:45:54.630 --> 00:45:57.230
happening. But then about that time, they found

00:45:57.230 --> 00:45:59.909
the monkey. It was in the thing, and the guys

00:45:59.909 --> 00:46:03.329
from furry freighters came in, grabbed the monkey,

00:46:04.690 --> 00:46:06.869
signed the chain of custody information. They

00:46:06.869 --> 00:46:09.250
had a trailer. They had all kinds of food and

00:46:09.250 --> 00:46:10.849
everything in there for it, and off they went.

00:46:12.230 --> 00:46:15.969
Perfect, perfect execution. Yeah. I'd never heard

00:46:15.969 --> 00:46:18.329
the skunk part before, but heck, if you wrote

00:46:18.329 --> 00:46:20.949
a screenplay that had that in it, nobody would

00:46:20.949 --> 00:46:27.489
believe it. That is an awesome story, actually.

00:46:27.550 --> 00:46:29.389
That sounds even better than a lot of the monkey

00:46:29.389 --> 00:46:33.809
part. I can just see Steve's face too as a skunk

00:46:33.809 --> 00:46:35.690
comes out, piece in the corner, goes back in

00:46:35.690 --> 00:46:42.980
his drawer. Down at the Spokane warrant, I assume

00:46:42.980 --> 00:46:46.000
Steve's team did some interviews as well. What'd

00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:48.300
they get out of the... I don't think they...

00:46:48.300 --> 00:46:50.840
I think same thing. They pretty much... I think

00:46:50.840 --> 00:46:53.079
everybody pretty well lawyered up by that time.

00:46:53.460 --> 00:46:55.739
But you recovered a lot of documents. You said,

00:46:56.179 --> 00:46:58.760
what did you learn from these documents about

00:46:58.760 --> 00:47:03.280
how did Gypsy and her mom do this? What was the

00:47:03.280 --> 00:47:06.300
plan? What was the scheme? How did it all happen?

00:47:06.360 --> 00:47:09.400
How'd they get this primate into the U .S.? So,

00:47:09.739 --> 00:47:12.760
so the whole plan started, I guess Gipsy and

00:47:12.760 --> 00:47:15.320
her mother were quite estranged for a while.

00:47:16.440 --> 00:47:21.599
And Fran was a freelance author and she got a

00:47:21.599 --> 00:47:24.639
contract or an offer from like Western Horseman

00:47:24.639 --> 00:47:29.159
magazine to go to Thailand and do an article

00:47:29.159 --> 00:47:34.659
on an elephant training facility. And so sometime

00:47:34.659 --> 00:47:41.239
in the interim, between when this contract was

00:47:41.239 --> 00:47:43.920
funded, Western Horsemen magazine or whatever

00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:46.219
magazine it was, I think it went out of business.

00:47:46.880 --> 00:47:49.500
So she was pretty disappointed. So Carl, her

00:47:49.500 --> 00:47:52.420
husband said, I'll pay your way, take Gypsy with

00:47:52.420 --> 00:47:54.199
you and y 'all have a great time. So they went,

00:47:54.440 --> 00:47:59.880
they went over there. And from what I remember

00:47:59.880 --> 00:48:01.820
from the trial and from everything, I don't think

00:48:01.820 --> 00:48:04.579
there was ever any plan to get a monkey until

00:48:04.579 --> 00:48:08.000
they got there. Oh, okay. And when they got there,

00:48:08.239 --> 00:48:12.699
Gypsy fell in love with monkeys and it became,

00:48:13.159 --> 00:48:15.860
and Fran even wrote this in her diary. This has

00:48:15.860 --> 00:48:21.579
become a monkey quest to find a monkey. And so

00:48:21.579 --> 00:48:26.480
they began a quest to, you know, find Gypsy a

00:48:26.480 --> 00:48:29.099
pet monkey. And then, you know, through the emails

00:48:29.099 --> 00:48:34.780
and the diary that we eventually read and seized.

00:48:35.320 --> 00:48:37.639
you know, an actual email account from Gmail

00:48:37.639 --> 00:48:42.099
that we got. We learned that they went to a monkey

00:48:42.099 --> 00:48:46.699
training facility. They contacted monkey breeders

00:48:46.699 --> 00:48:49.139
who were advertising monkeys for sale and one

00:48:49.139 --> 00:48:52.199
guy in Cameroon. And they reached out to him

00:48:52.199 --> 00:48:54.039
while they were in Bangkok to see if he could

00:48:54.039 --> 00:48:57.159
send them a monkey in Bangkok, you know, from

00:48:57.159 --> 00:48:59.960
Cameroon. And oh yeah, they were going all in.

00:49:00.019 --> 00:49:03.280
And so they ended up getting a hold of a guy

00:49:03.280 --> 00:49:09.449
named Boris. from the Thai horse farm. How they

00:49:09.449 --> 00:49:12.449
found him, I don't call exactly, but they got

00:49:12.449 --> 00:49:14.449
hold of Boris and they said they wanted to find

00:49:14.449 --> 00:49:19.230
the monkey kid. So Boris went on a mission. One

00:49:19.230 --> 00:49:21.630
of the comical stories that came out in the email

00:49:21.630 --> 00:49:24.789
or the diary was they went to a town called Chiang

00:49:24.789 --> 00:49:27.610
Mai, which is known for free ranging monkeys

00:49:27.610 --> 00:49:30.210
everywhere. Yep. That's in the northern part

00:49:30.210 --> 00:49:33.389
of Thailand. Yep. Right. And they got there and

00:49:33.389 --> 00:49:37.380
they, checked into a hotel and there were howler

00:49:37.380 --> 00:49:39.579
monkeys all over I think there were howler monkeys

00:49:39.579 --> 00:49:42.719
all over the place and so one was walking by

00:49:42.719 --> 00:49:47.260
the sliding door and Fran wrote that gypsy reached

00:49:47.260 --> 00:49:50.800
out grabbed a baby monkey off that one's back

00:49:50.800 --> 00:49:55.179
slammed the door an entire troop of howler monkeys

00:49:56.070 --> 00:49:58.550
came up and started beating on the door. In the

00:49:58.550 --> 00:50:00.550
meantime, this little baby monkey is running

00:50:00.550 --> 00:50:03.429
roughshod around this room. This is a circus.

00:50:03.809 --> 00:50:05.929
I'm reading this story and I'm just howling,

00:50:06.190 --> 00:50:08.949
laughing. I can't believe it's happening. Also

00:50:08.949 --> 00:50:13.489
infuriating because it's super dangerous to do

00:50:13.489 --> 00:50:16.869
that. That female mother monkey could have really

00:50:16.869 --> 00:50:21.250
hurt. Oh yeah. But also cruel. That's cruel as

00:50:21.250 --> 00:50:24.719
you can be. It is. As cruel as you can be. Unbelievable.

00:50:24.840 --> 00:50:27.079
And so they finally couldn't catch this thing.

00:50:27.139 --> 00:50:29.179
So they opened the door and it ran out into the

00:50:29.179 --> 00:50:31.260
hallway of the hotel and ran down the hallway

00:50:31.260 --> 00:50:35.039
and the maids are scattered everywhere and everything

00:50:35.039 --> 00:50:39.619
settled down finally. But around the 25th or

00:50:39.619 --> 00:50:43.599
24th or 25th of November, they received an email

00:50:43.599 --> 00:50:46.960
from Boris that he thinks he'd found them a monkey.

00:50:47.159 --> 00:50:50.900
Okay. And so they went to this some remote village

00:50:50.900 --> 00:50:54.559
with him. And I actually think this village may

00:50:54.559 --> 00:50:56.780
have been in Burma, but I couldn't never, or

00:50:56.780 --> 00:50:59.360
me and Mark, I couldn't never prove that part,

00:50:59.360 --> 00:51:02.059
but it seemed like it. It looked like there were

00:51:02.059 --> 00:51:04.739
border crossings that they were waiting at. And

00:51:04.739 --> 00:51:07.900
they went to a village and there was pictures

00:51:07.900 --> 00:51:11.219
of this small rhesus macaque inside of the cage.

00:51:13.219 --> 00:51:15.519
And next picture you see is gypsies got it in

00:51:15.519 --> 00:51:18.320
this car and they're driving away. Do you know

00:51:18.320 --> 00:51:21.239
how much they paid for it? I don't know. I never

00:51:21.239 --> 00:51:23.679
did find out. Never heard. I don't know if they

00:51:23.679 --> 00:51:26.039
paid anything or they gifted them. They traded

00:51:26.039 --> 00:51:29.860
something. I don't know. I did some work in Thailand

00:51:29.860 --> 00:51:33.079
as an agent around 2010. I spent about six months

00:51:33.079 --> 00:51:35.440
there doing some work as an agent. And I was

00:51:35.440 --> 00:51:39.179
shocked at how easy it is to buy exotic wild

00:51:39.179 --> 00:51:41.980
animals pretty much throughout Thailand. In fact,

00:51:42.099 --> 00:51:46.449
in many cities. people will approach you on the

00:51:46.449 --> 00:51:49.949
street with, you know, slow lorises, different

00:51:49.949 --> 00:51:52.030
type, different wild animals and just offer to

00:51:52.030 --> 00:51:54.949
sell them to you right there on the spot. It's

00:51:54.949 --> 00:52:00.530
a, it's a, it's not good. So it doesn't surprise

00:52:00.530 --> 00:52:02.730
me that she actually surprises me that it was

00:52:02.730 --> 00:52:04.929
as difficult as it was for her to find somebody

00:52:04.929 --> 00:52:10.170
to sell her a baby. But, okay, so, so now she's

00:52:10.170 --> 00:52:12.630
got it in Thailand with her. How the heck does

00:52:12.630 --> 00:52:15.320
she get it back to the States? Apparently they

00:52:15.320 --> 00:52:18.340
took a bus from wherever they obtained this monkey

00:52:18.340 --> 00:52:22.460
from the Thai horse farm back to Bangkok. And

00:52:22.460 --> 00:52:24.679
they sedated the monkey with sleeping pills,

00:52:25.119 --> 00:52:28.179
Xanax, and God knows what else they had. And

00:52:28.179 --> 00:52:31.039
they got to Bangkok and now they're in a quandary.

00:52:31.159 --> 00:52:36.159
We have a 26 hour flight or 24 hour flight. We

00:52:36.159 --> 00:52:38.659
have to keep this thing sedated. And they actually

00:52:38.659 --> 00:52:43.460
found a veterinarian to give them sedatives to

00:52:43.460 --> 00:52:46.880
give this maybe a monkey while they transport.

00:52:47.480 --> 00:52:53.880
Wow. So how does... So, you know, okay, this

00:52:53.880 --> 00:52:55.699
raises all kinds of other issues. You're going

00:52:55.699 --> 00:52:59.519
to sit on an airplane with 400, 300 other people

00:52:59.519 --> 00:53:03.840
in an international flight, like you said, 17,

00:53:03.900 --> 00:53:08.179
24 hours inside the passenger cabin with an animal

00:53:08.179 --> 00:53:11.480
that could be carrying infectious diseases. I

00:53:11.480 --> 00:53:15.719
mean, the negligence of the gypsy on this is

00:53:15.719 --> 00:53:19.960
phenomenal. The risk to the public is huge. And

00:53:19.960 --> 00:53:22.960
you know, it just highlights the importance of,

00:53:22.960 --> 00:53:26.199
you know, counter wildlife trafficking, law enforcement

00:53:26.199 --> 00:53:28.679
efforts, not just to save animals, but to protect

00:53:28.679 --> 00:53:31.780
the public from exposure to zoonotic diseases

00:53:31.780 --> 00:53:37.320
like this. Okay, so, so I'm thinking as a smuggler,

00:53:37.519 --> 00:53:40.300
all right. You know, do I stick it in a handbag?

00:53:40.380 --> 00:53:43.760
How do I get it? You got to pass through security.

00:53:44.320 --> 00:53:46.900
You got to pass through US Customs, through Thai

00:53:46.900 --> 00:53:49.860
Customs, Thai Security, which is very tight.

00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:52.199
You know, they have strong security at their

00:53:52.199 --> 00:53:55.260
airports. I would think I'm going to get caught

00:53:55.260 --> 00:53:57.460
with this monkey in a handbag or a backpack.

00:53:57.659 --> 00:54:00.500
How the heck did they get it through security

00:54:00.500 --> 00:54:02.960
on the Thai side? And how in the world did they

00:54:02.960 --> 00:54:07.010
get it through US Customs in past? our crack

00:54:07.010 --> 00:54:10.150
wildlife inspectors in Los Angeles. How did they

00:54:10.150 --> 00:54:14.650
do it? They had a pouch and they made it look

00:54:14.650 --> 00:54:18.690
like Gypsy was pregnant. Oh my God. They strapped

00:54:18.690 --> 00:54:20.610
something to the front of her under her clothes

00:54:20.610 --> 00:54:22.130
and made it look like she was pregnant. Made

00:54:22.130 --> 00:54:26.730
it look like she was pregnant. And that was quite

00:54:26.730 --> 00:54:29.170
revealing when we saw the pictures. We didn't

00:54:29.170 --> 00:54:33.840
know at this point. Yeah. You see, you see pictures

00:54:33.840 --> 00:54:35.920
from when they first got to Thailand and here's

00:54:35.920 --> 00:54:39.519
this relatively slim young lady posing in front

00:54:39.519 --> 00:54:42.559
of the, you know, the exotic trees and flowers

00:54:42.559 --> 00:54:45.179
in Thailand. And then, you know, three weeks

00:54:45.179 --> 00:54:48.619
later, she's obviously, you know, eight months

00:54:48.619 --> 00:54:54.860
pregnant. Yeah. There's pictures of her in the,

00:54:54.860 --> 00:54:57.739
in the Thailand airport standing in front of

00:54:57.739 --> 00:55:00.719
a gate. I can't remember the name of the airport

00:55:00.719 --> 00:55:04.980
in Thailand or in Bangkok, but obviously very

00:55:04.980 --> 00:55:09.599
pregnant. Unbelievable. So she smuggled this

00:55:09.599 --> 00:55:13.079
animal on her body, basically. On her body, correct.

00:55:14.539 --> 00:55:18.079
You just think about the consequences if that

00:55:18.079 --> 00:55:21.159
sedatives that she was given the monkey could

00:55:21.159 --> 00:55:23.059
have killed it, but it also might not have worked.

00:55:23.559 --> 00:55:26.219
And can you imagine this monkey waking up in

00:55:26.219 --> 00:55:29.809
the middle of a flight? Talk about the snakes

00:55:29.809 --> 00:55:39.409
on a plane situation. This is Yeah Swing in from

00:55:39.409 --> 00:55:46.550
the you know So that's incredible and You know

00:55:46.550 --> 00:55:49.389
just the idea that she passed through us customs

00:55:49.389 --> 00:55:52.949
at LAX passed through Thai customs It's no wonder

00:55:52.949 --> 00:55:54.849
they decided to rent that car and drive it up

00:55:54.849 --> 00:55:57.369
to Washington because they were probably sweating

00:55:57.369 --> 00:56:00.170
bricks by that time. And the monkey had been

00:56:00.170 --> 00:56:03.989
sedated for 24 hours plus. So crazy. Yeah. And

00:56:03.989 --> 00:56:07.510
apparently they had some extra sedative. So they

00:56:07.510 --> 00:56:09.130
kept shooting it. When it would start to stir,

00:56:09.210 --> 00:56:10.929
they'd give it some more. It's a wonder they

00:56:10.929 --> 00:56:12.789
didn't kill it. Yeah, it's a wonder they didn't

00:56:12.789 --> 00:56:14.550
kill it or give it brain damage or something

00:56:14.550 --> 00:56:17.409
like that. Oh, they did. So they did that. It

00:56:17.409 --> 00:56:20.650
did cause brain damage. It does cause some tremors.

00:56:20.829 --> 00:56:22.989
So the monkey has, I don't know if it's still

00:56:22.989 --> 00:56:25.289
alive either, but it did have tremors for several

00:56:25.289 --> 00:56:31.690
years after that. So now what? You've got all

00:56:31.690 --> 00:56:36.050
this information. Did you arrest them? No, we

00:56:36.050 --> 00:56:38.809
didn't. Okay. But did they get charged? They

00:56:38.809 --> 00:56:42.889
did get charged. They got indicted and then there

00:56:42.889 --> 00:56:46.289
was a superseding indictment several months later,

00:56:46.289 --> 00:56:49.110
but now they were never arrested. What did you

00:56:49.110 --> 00:56:51.820
charge them with? They charged initially they

00:56:51.820 --> 00:56:57.679
were charged with smuggling conspiracy to smuggle

00:56:57.679 --> 00:57:04.099
Lacey act and the false statement and then the

00:57:04.099 --> 00:57:08.139
superseding indictment was trimmed down to basically

00:57:08.139 --> 00:57:10.719
Smuggling conspiracy to smuggle and the false

00:57:10.719 --> 00:57:14.960
statement. Those are all serious Every crime

00:57:14.960 --> 00:57:16.659
you just mentioned including the Lacey act. Those

00:57:16.659 --> 00:57:20.360
are all felonies And then the minimum on those

00:57:20.360 --> 00:57:24.119
is five years, $250 ,000 fine. I mean, that'd

00:57:24.119 --> 00:57:26.159
be the maximum penalty, but that's the lowest

00:57:26.159 --> 00:57:30.679
of those. Smuggling is 20 years. Yeah, I think

00:57:30.679 --> 00:57:33.139
it's 20 years. Yeah, it's 20 for inbound smuggling.

00:57:33.320 --> 00:57:36.980
It's 20. So those are some serious crimes that

00:57:36.980 --> 00:57:39.239
they were charged with. What did they do? Did

00:57:39.239 --> 00:57:41.880
they plead guilty or they go to trial? They did

00:57:41.880 --> 00:57:43.920
not. They went to trial. They went to trial.

00:57:44.239 --> 00:57:50.860
They went to trial and all three had public defenders.

00:57:51.820 --> 00:57:55.320
Now, Jimmy Pratt, he agreed to plead guilty to

00:57:55.320 --> 00:57:58.980
a misdemeanor. Okay. And he didn't go to Thailand.

00:57:59.079 --> 00:58:01.039
He was only involved kind of after the fact,

00:58:01.360 --> 00:58:03.579
right? But he was still, he was still charged

00:58:03.579 --> 00:58:05.760
with conspiracy and smuggling itself because

00:58:05.760 --> 00:58:08.059
he concealed, you know, the, the, after the fact.

00:58:08.260 --> 00:58:11.260
And, and, uh, so, yeah, so he was still charged

00:58:11.260 --> 00:58:13.199
with smuggling, but he pled guilty to, I think

00:58:13.199 --> 00:58:15.440
it was a Lacey act, if I'm not mistaken. Right.

00:58:16.760 --> 00:58:19.679
I'm drawing a blank here right now. He pled guilty

00:58:19.679 --> 00:58:22.639
to a misdemeanor in exchange for testifying against

00:58:22.639 --> 00:58:25.880
gypsy and Fran. Oh, wow. He turned on him. He

00:58:25.880 --> 00:58:29.230
did. Okay. He did. So they, they actually went

00:58:29.230 --> 00:58:31.429
all the way for a jury trial though, Fran. They

00:58:31.429 --> 00:58:35.150
went all the way. Yep. Yep. And what happened

00:58:35.150 --> 00:58:39.449
there? You know, you asked me a couple of weeks

00:58:39.449 --> 00:58:41.349
ago about their defense and they really didn't

00:58:41.349 --> 00:58:43.510
have one. There was no defense, but I really

00:58:43.510 --> 00:58:48.210
think that the lawyers were, were free of course

00:58:48.210 --> 00:58:51.690
in a public defender. And I, I, I think that

00:58:51.690 --> 00:58:55.920
Fran, and was hoping for jury nullification.

00:58:56.159 --> 00:58:58.480
I think that she was hoping that they would see

00:58:58.480 --> 00:59:01.699
the ridiculousness of this whole thing and that

00:59:01.699 --> 00:59:04.079
the jury would nullify it. Or, and she also,

00:59:04.139 --> 00:59:06.300
I think she wanted to write a story. She wanted

00:59:06.300 --> 00:59:08.800
to expose the big, bad federal government taking

00:59:08.800 --> 00:59:11.500
on these poor people who were just trying to

00:59:11.500 --> 00:59:15.000
take care of a primate. And, you know, it didn't

00:59:15.000 --> 00:59:19.099
work. But it didn't. I mean, she actually petitioned

00:59:19.099 --> 00:59:21.610
all the way through the Supreme Court. Oh, no

00:59:21.610 --> 00:59:24.610
kidding. They got denied. They got denied. So

00:59:24.610 --> 00:59:27.130
I take it they were both convicted after their

00:59:27.130 --> 00:59:29.530
jury trial. They were both convicted. And then

00:59:29.530 --> 00:59:31.670
they went through the appeal process and tried

00:59:31.670 --> 00:59:34.030
and successful. Do you remember what they were

00:59:34.030 --> 00:59:36.869
sentenced to? They were sentenced, they both

00:59:36.869 --> 00:59:43.630
got 60 days and $4 ,200 in restitution or something

00:59:43.630 --> 00:59:46.469
like that. It was, it was amenable. And I don't

00:59:46.469 --> 00:59:48.250
know that they ever, either one of them ever

00:59:48.250 --> 00:59:53.030
served a day. Gypsy passed away. several months

00:59:53.030 --> 00:59:56.909
after the trial. And I think it was an automobile

00:59:56.909 --> 01:00:01.730
accident. Fran, she continued to fight this all

01:00:01.730 --> 01:00:06.250
the way through the Supreme Court. And I remember

01:00:06.250 --> 01:00:09.449
her attorney, her public defender, when he first,

01:00:09.469 --> 01:00:12.190
I think this was one of his first cases that

01:00:12.190 --> 01:00:14.730
he took on. And so he was kind of a true believer

01:00:14.730 --> 01:00:17.409
there for a while. But he called me after about

01:00:17.409 --> 01:00:20.539
three years and he says, She just, she wants

01:00:20.539 --> 01:00:22.860
her stuff back. Would you just give it to her?

01:00:22.860 --> 01:00:25.079
Her documents. There was like some documents,

01:00:25.260 --> 01:00:29.440
some receipts from, you know, an elephant farm

01:00:29.440 --> 01:00:31.360
or something in Bangkok, you know, that we just,

01:00:31.360 --> 01:00:33.340
we just grabbed a whole bunch of stuff. Yeah,

01:00:33.340 --> 01:00:35.079
I'll be glad to. He just says, just, just make

01:00:35.079 --> 01:00:40.840
her go away. I just, I just want. You know, so

01:00:40.840 --> 01:00:45.460
talking about the sentences, the way, unfortunately,

01:00:46.750 --> 01:00:49.269
There's something called the US sentencing guidelines,

01:00:49.489 --> 01:00:51.730
federal sentencing guidelines. They're not mandatory.

01:00:52.210 --> 01:00:55.250
They're advisory for judges to follow, but they,

01:00:55.590 --> 01:00:57.250
I don't know if you know this, Corky, but they

01:00:57.250 --> 01:01:00.710
have not been updated. Basically in the sentencing

01:01:00.710 --> 01:01:03.530
guidelines, you can look up by crime kind of

01:01:03.530 --> 01:01:07.289
where a person falls and it gives a range just

01:01:07.289 --> 01:01:10.789
so listeners understand. But the sentencing guidelines

01:01:10.789 --> 01:01:13.469
related to wildlife crimes have not been updated

01:01:13.469 --> 01:01:18.429
for 40 years. Yeah, and they're hopelessly, they're

01:01:18.429 --> 01:01:21.050
very badly outdated. They have not been adjusted

01:01:21.050 --> 01:01:24.110
to reflect the increase in wildlife trafficking

01:01:24.110 --> 01:01:26.849
and crime. And so a lot of times these people

01:01:26.849 --> 01:01:29.190
don't get jail time because of the way the sentencing

01:01:29.190 --> 01:01:31.170
guidelines play out for them, even after they

01:01:31.170 --> 01:01:34.730
go to a jury trial and they're convicted. The

01:01:34.730 --> 01:01:37.670
plus side is, and I think it's important to remember

01:01:37.670 --> 01:01:41.090
is, first when it comes to the sentencing they

01:01:41.090 --> 01:01:43.769
were convicted of felonies and Once that's on

01:01:43.769 --> 01:01:46.670
your record that has a dramatic impact on your

01:01:46.670 --> 01:01:48.969
life to have a felony conviction There's lots

01:01:48.969 --> 01:01:52.429
of things sometimes it can be difficult to get

01:01:52.429 --> 01:01:55.409
certain types of jobs Certainly if you commit

01:01:55.409 --> 01:01:58.510
other crimes in the future Having had a felony

01:01:58.510 --> 01:02:00.969
conviction will almost guarantee that you go

01:02:00.969 --> 01:02:04.070
to jail for future crimes including future wildlife

01:02:04.070 --> 01:02:06.510
crimes So it does have a deterrent impact. So

01:02:06.510 --> 01:02:09.579
I hope you don't feel You know, I hope at the

01:02:09.579 --> 01:02:11.559
time you didn't, and now you don't feel that

01:02:11.559 --> 01:02:14.860
it wasn't worth it, because I see this case as

01:02:14.860 --> 01:02:17.619
very important, and even though they didn't do

01:02:17.619 --> 01:02:20.659
jail time, it's still a good sentence, because

01:02:20.659 --> 01:02:23.500
they did it. It is. No, it was. I've had worse,

01:02:23.559 --> 01:02:27.039
believe me. Yeah, true. I mean, I've had just

01:02:27.039 --> 01:02:28.699
the opposite. I had a guy get three days in jail

01:02:28.699 --> 01:02:32.860
for a duck stamp one time, but that was in Fairbanks,

01:02:32.880 --> 01:02:36.599
Alaska in a different circumstance, but that

01:02:36.599 --> 01:02:42.559
was interesting. It was, it was an important

01:02:42.559 --> 01:02:45.719
case. I mean, this made worldwide press. I mean,

01:02:45.719 --> 01:02:48.980
it was all over. It was around and, you know,

01:02:49.099 --> 01:02:53.059
hopefully some people looked at it, who went

01:02:53.059 --> 01:02:55.719
to Thailand and elsewhere, Korea and places where

01:02:55.719 --> 01:02:58.219
you could buy wildlife on the street. And they

01:02:58.219 --> 01:03:00.559
realized, oh, that's beautiful. Maybe I'll just

01:03:00.559 --> 01:03:03.420
take a picture and take it home with me. You

01:03:03.420 --> 01:03:05.400
know, which I used to tell people that I said,

01:03:05.599 --> 01:03:08.449
take a picture of them. If you buy something

01:03:08.449 --> 01:03:11.849
that's made out of, you know, pangolin shells

01:03:11.849 --> 01:03:13.730
or whatever, you're going to look at it, it's

01:03:13.730 --> 01:03:18.369
going to sit there and you know, but take a picture

01:03:18.369 --> 01:03:20.929
of it, you got the picture forever. Yeah. And

01:03:20.929 --> 01:03:22.929
you know, that's, that's another important thing

01:03:22.929 --> 01:03:25.610
is it deters people from doing this. And the

01:03:25.610 --> 01:03:28.389
real insidious thing about what Gypsy and her

01:03:28.389 --> 01:03:30.889
mom did, they weren't bringing this monkey in

01:03:30.889 --> 01:03:32.710
to sell it. It's not part, like they were part

01:03:32.710 --> 01:03:37.550
of a trafficking scheme, but Walking around with

01:03:37.550 --> 01:03:41.030
a monkey on their shoulder in Spokane wherever

01:03:41.030 --> 01:03:43.989
taking pictures of it putting on social media

01:03:43.989 --> 01:03:47.449
That actually encourages other people who never

01:03:47.449 --> 01:03:49.989
would have thought about it before They might

01:03:49.989 --> 01:03:54.889
say oh, that's so cute. I want one and now the

01:03:54.889 --> 01:03:58.869
Lawson's gypsy and her mom are creating a demand

01:03:58.869 --> 01:04:02.050
for monkeys. You know what I mean? So that's

01:04:02.050 --> 01:04:04.250
why this case as even though it's a one -off.

01:04:04.269 --> 01:04:06.670
This is the one time they did it There's no evidence

01:04:06.670 --> 01:04:08.809
that we're going to do it again or sell the monkey.

01:04:09.170 --> 01:04:13.309
Still critically important to deter future bad

01:04:13.309 --> 01:04:17.730
behavior by other people who, you know, but for

01:04:17.920 --> 01:04:20.260
Meeting the Lawson's or seeing their social media

01:04:20.260 --> 01:04:22.579
posts never would have considered buying a monkey

01:04:22.579 --> 01:04:25.260
You just don't want the demand to get started

01:04:25.260 --> 01:04:27.900
and so good to nip this in the bud I love I love

01:04:27.900 --> 01:04:29.920
this case. I love that. This is one of my favorite

01:04:29.920 --> 01:04:35.820
all -time cases That I knew I love it. So many

01:04:35.820 --> 01:04:40.739
nuances to this Yes, totally and you know, everybody's

01:04:40.739 --> 01:04:42.539
gonna want to know Corky what happened to the

01:04:42.539 --> 01:04:49.849
monkey? Well the monkey Ended up getting it through

01:04:49.849 --> 01:04:54.510
quarantine. They did not have any communicable

01:04:54.510 --> 01:05:00.409
diseases or anything like that. They did have

01:05:00.409 --> 01:05:05.110
tremors, so it developed some shakiness and we

01:05:05.110 --> 01:05:07.969
ended up finding a place in Vancouver, Washington

01:05:07.969 --> 01:05:12.190
and it was a primate rescue facility that basically

01:05:12.190 --> 01:05:17.329
rescued primates and it was a nice lady who I

01:05:17.329 --> 01:05:19.650
had a soft spot for Brian Mates. She willingly

01:05:19.650 --> 01:05:24.170
took this on and without charging us anything,

01:05:24.349 --> 01:05:27.510
even though I still feel guilty about that, that

01:05:27.510 --> 01:05:32.349
we never gave her a few grand to raise this monkey.

01:05:33.210 --> 01:05:37.449
To be honest with you, that was 2008, 2009. By

01:05:37.449 --> 01:05:41.670
that time, I have no idea where Apu, that was

01:05:41.670 --> 01:05:45.389
the monkey's name. I have no idea if they're

01:05:45.389 --> 01:05:48.170
still in business. whatever happened to this

01:05:48.170 --> 01:05:51.369
thing. But she checked with me a few times after

01:05:51.369 --> 01:05:53.449
that, you know, once a year or so and just told

01:05:53.449 --> 01:05:58.369
me how Appu was doing. And but yeah, he was ill.

01:05:58.449 --> 01:06:01.530
He was not not well from probably just from being

01:06:01.530 --> 01:06:04.690
sedated. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But at least he

01:06:04.690 --> 01:06:07.909
had a safe place at a permitted facility that

01:06:07.909 --> 01:06:09.849
knew how to care for him and would do it safely.

01:06:09.929 --> 01:06:12.849
So that's a good ending for Appu as far as I'm

01:06:12.849 --> 01:06:14.630
concerned, because there's there's no way no

01:06:14.630 --> 01:06:17.360
way you can take him back to the wild. So No

01:06:17.360 --> 01:06:21.320
That's awesome Corky what I'm gonna try to do

01:06:21.320 --> 01:06:24.559
is Just for our listeners if if they're interested

01:06:24.559 --> 01:06:26.340
in more information about this case I'm gonna

01:06:26.340 --> 01:06:29.340
try to post some of the documents from the court

01:06:29.340 --> 01:06:32.920
proceedings on Yeah on the website. I'll put

01:06:32.920 --> 01:06:37.000
it on NatureSecretService .com if anybody's interested

01:06:37.000 --> 01:06:39.300
you can go to the website look for this episode

01:06:39.300 --> 01:06:41.760
and you'll you'll get some access to other documents

01:06:41.760 --> 01:06:44.019
and Maybe I'll get you to send me some photos

01:06:44.019 --> 01:06:48.230
and stuff Did I send you the email to the witches

01:06:48.230 --> 01:06:51.489
group? Yep. Okay. I was going to mention that

01:06:51.489 --> 01:06:53.409
and I forgot about it, but that was one of my

01:06:53.409 --> 01:06:58.110
favorites. Yeah, we're running out of time now,

01:06:58.110 --> 01:07:00.190
but I meant to ask you about the whole witches

01:07:00.190 --> 01:07:02.769
group, but yeah, there's a witch element to this

01:07:02.769 --> 01:07:07.190
whole case. But maybe we'll just have that as

01:07:07.190 --> 01:07:10.010
a teaser. I'll try to put some of that information

01:07:10.010 --> 01:07:13.130
up there on the website. But Corky, I want to

01:07:13.130 --> 01:07:15.170
thank you so much for coming on the show to tell

01:07:15.170 --> 01:07:18.309
this story. You're a great storyteller. This

01:07:18.309 --> 01:07:22.389
is an excellent case. I'm so happy that you got

01:07:22.389 --> 01:07:24.650
a taste of the international trafficking there

01:07:24.650 --> 01:07:30.170
in the Tri -Cities, the Spokane area. I appreciate

01:07:30.170 --> 01:07:32.269
you being with us. I know you're headed off now

01:07:32.269 --> 01:07:35.989
soon for the fire season. You fly airplanes to

01:07:35.989 --> 01:07:39.570
suppress fires in Texas and around the country.

01:07:41.119 --> 01:07:43.420
Be careful out there. It's fire season. It's

01:07:43.420 --> 01:07:45.039
getting more and more dangerous to fly these

01:07:45.039 --> 01:07:47.900
planes. But I appreciate you doing that. And

01:07:47.900 --> 01:07:50.659
I hope you have a safe fire suppression season

01:07:50.659 --> 01:07:52.800
this year. But thank you so much for being on

01:07:52.800 --> 01:07:55.380
the show. I appreciate it. Well, Ed, thank you

01:07:55.380 --> 01:07:57.500
for inviting me. And I wish you the best of luck

01:07:57.500 --> 01:07:59.460
in this endeavor. I think it's going to be a

01:07:59.460 --> 01:08:02.059
great success for you. For us, too. I mean, this

01:08:02.059 --> 01:08:04.860
is important to get this information out. Fantastic,

01:08:05.139 --> 01:08:07.400
Cokie. Thanks. I'd love to have you on on another

01:08:07.400 --> 01:08:10.150
episode in the future. I look forward to it.

01:08:10.150 --> 01:08:13.510
Maybe we can talk about wolves. That sounds perfect.

01:08:14.110 --> 01:08:15.949
All right, my friend. All right, that'll do it

01:08:15.949 --> 01:08:18.050
for this episode of Nature's Secret Service.

01:08:18.149 --> 01:08:20.609
I want to thank Corky Roberts, our guest, for

01:08:20.609 --> 01:08:22.989
telling us that fantastic story and joining us

01:08:22.989 --> 01:08:25.189
today. Always a pleasure. We'll see you next

01:08:25.189 --> 01:08:28.550
time. Nature's Secret Service is written and

01:08:28.550 --> 01:08:31.189
produced by me, Ed Newcomer, and is co -produced

01:08:31.189 --> 01:08:34.729
by the DHTV team here at California State University

01:08:34.729 --> 01:08:37.270
Dominguez Hills. Follow us on social media and

01:08:37.270 --> 01:08:39.569
connect with us online at naturessecretservice

01:08:39.569 --> 01:08:40.149
.com.