If you want to learn more about the topics of
today's episode, visit the podcast website at
naturessecretservice .com. Thanks for listening.
Okay, people, listen up. Here we go. I'm Ed Newcomer.
This is Nature's Secret Service, the podcast
that puts you in the room with the men and women
of wildlife law enforcement. Today, our guest
is Corky Roberts joining us from his home in
Arizona. Corky is a former U .S. Fish and Wildlife
Service Special Agent, but before he became an
agent for the Fish and Wildlife Service, he did
many years as a wildlife officer for the state
of Washington. And then after becoming an agent,
he worked in places like Arizona and Alaska,
and then later in Washington. He was a pilot
agent for us for many years and served as a resident
agent in charge in Oklahoma, or sorry, in Alaska.
He finished his career out in an area known as
Tri -Cities, Washington, which he'll talk about
in a little bit. One of the great things about
Corky is he's a former SEER instructor for the
US Air Force, which stands for Survival Evasion
Resistance and Escape, I think. And he actually
used to teach at the Fish and Wildlife Service
Agent Academy. He did a segment on survival,
if any of our agents ever got into trouble. It's
one of the more memorable aspects of my Academy
experience, which we'll talk about a little bit.
Corky, thanks so much for being with us. I really
appreciate you joining us and being on the podcast
today. Well, thanks for having me, Ed. I've been
looking forward to this. Me too, honestly, in
part because of the story we're going to talk
about today, but also in part because I always
enjoyed working with you when we were agents
together. And you always had such a positive
attitude about everything. And anytime I worked
with you put me in a good mood. I can say the
same. I always enjoyed our meetings except when
you were doing your arm bending and that kind
of thing. You get a little intense on that sometimes.
That's true. That's right. Corky and I were both
in the same region for a while. The U .S. Fish
and Wildlife Service law enforcement is divided
up into geographical regions and for a while
we were both in what was then known as region
one, which was basically the West Coast. And
I was a defensive tactics instructor. So I got
to I got to help agents learn how to land on
the ground safely and bend each other's arms
in funny directions, right? You always like ground
fighting. That was the part I'm always excited
about. Well, I have to say, you know, you're
I know for sure that what we got as agents at
the Academy, as far as you know, surviving in
the in in remote situations or survival situations
was nothing like what you taught as a seer instructor
to US Air Force pilots. But I do have to say
that the training you gave at the Academy class
that I was in was very memorable. And although
you know, it was abbreviated only I think of
maybe a few days, I really left your training,
feeling so confident that if something happened
to me out in a remote area, I at least had a
chance to get myself out of it. I still remember
some of the lessons you taught us during that
course and you're a great instructor as far as
that goes. You left us feeling like, okay, at
least we have a chance to make it out of this
alive if something happens to us. So that was
great. Well, it's like anything just get to where
you're thinking about it, you know, that's that's
part of the battle right there Exactly. Exactly.
So listen what we're going to talk about today
is a really interesting case and We have about
an hour to talk about it. So I want to get right
to it, but at the at the last part of your career
you were based at in a single agent station in
kind of south central washington an area known
as tri cities uh can you just tell our listeners
a little bit about where is tri cities what are
the tri cities and what's it like there well
the tri cities are three cities richland kennewick
and pasco washington and they're all right near
the confluence of the Columbia and the Snake
River, where the Snake River runs into the Columbia
River. One part of Washington people are familiar
with is Walla Walla, and Tri -Cities is about
40 miles west of Walla Walla, and about 120 miles
south of Spokane, Washington. And it's in the,
you might call it the desert area of Washington.
It's near the Hanford Nuclear Project, where
they developed the plutonium that Made the first
atomic bombs during World War II. It's really
a beautiful area. With the Columbia and the Snake
River, there's a lot of wildlife resources in
the area. Yeah, so typically what does a U .S.
Fish and Wildlife Service Special Agent work
on when they're assigned to that duty station
in Tri -Cities? Well, I was the first officer
there in quite some time. They opened the duty
station there they at the when it was previously
open it was a waterfowl post I mean waterfowl
hunting was a huge sport in that area because
they had a lot of refuges in the area and then
there was a lot of grain and flooded flooded
areas and so there was a lot of waterfowl but
with the with Oregon there with The rest of Eastern
Washington was basically wide open. There was
no agent in Spokane for the first couple of years.
I was in Tri -Cities. And so I covered everything
from the Canadian border down to the Oregon border
and sometimes down into Oregon. Lacey Act, Migratory
Bird Treaty Act. There was two, three Indian
reservations in there that had some, you know,
significant wildlife resources. Work people were
concerned about and so it was a busy busy post
Yeah, you know that whole topic of the Native
American reservations is Could be could be a
whole episode in and of itself because of course
Fish and Wildlife Services under interior and
interior has a trust relationship with all of
the recognized tribes in the United States So,
you know anytime, you know, there's wildlife
crime involving, you know taking place on a Native
American reservation, it's pretty common for
Fish and Wildlife Service agents to get involved
and help the tribal police and deal with those
issues, as well as, you know, help with conflicts
with the states and things like that. There was
some of those. But I did, I spent a significant
amount of time on the Yakama and Caldwell Indian
Reservations. Were you, were wolves making their
way into Washington yet at that time, or was
that a little early? No, that was when I first
got there, not yet, but they showed up. They
were there. They appeared in investigative subject
matter the following year after this one case
we're going to talk about. That was kind of the
first wolf case in the state of Washington. That
was in 2008. And one of the first you worked
on one of the first wolf cases. Interesting.
Yeah, wolves, of course, you know, it's a it's
a complicated issue. But even though they're
delisted in some states, Wyoming, I think Montana,
Idaho, if they move out of those states, you
know, and down here in California, there's a
number of wolf packs, but they're still protected
by the Endangered Species Act because they're
outside of that delisted zone. which I think
was the case there in Eastern Washington at that
time. Eastern Washington, they were out, they
became outside the zone, but initially they were
inside the protected zone. And just to kind of
go off on a tangent a little bit, this first
case, these wolves came out of Canada and they
naturally immigrated. Yeah, which happens. And
once they cross the border, of course, they come
under the protection of the endangered species
act. That's correct. One of the things that I
know you and I have in common is we like to work,
we like to be in the office during the holidays
and I still like to work at night because it's
quiet, nobody's there, you can actually get reports
done and you can get things done that you can't
get done easily when there's a lot of people
around or stories to tell. or to chit chat today.
So I know around 2007, you were taking advantage
of everybody being out of the office. You were
in your office by yourself working on reports
just before Christmas 2007. And you got a call.
Tell us about this call you got. It was actually
after Christmas two days after Christmas and
I had the I had the office to myself I mean and
this is I was in a refuge office at that time
So there's you know 20 or 30 people there usually
but it was I had it to myself and like you said
You can get a lot done, right? But at this time
I just happened to be there Kind of kick it back,
I guess not even really working on anything in
the phone or anything I picked it up, Fish and
Wildlife Law Enforcement, and the gentleman identified
himself as Special Agent Jack McLean with Immigration
and Customs Enforcement and spoke in. Okay. Jack
said, well, he said, you know, I have a question
for you. And he said, can you bring a monkey
into the United States? I got to stop you right
there because that is a loaded question to get
right after the holidays, right? Yes, it is.
Yes, it is. And I kind of said, well, I said,
probably not. Most likely not, in the context
that you're telling me. And why don't you tell
me the story? Yeah, of course. The next thing
is, OK, what do you got, right? Yeah. And he
said, well, he said he got a call from a young
lady who was working at the fashion bug store,
which is a clothing store in Spokane, Washington.
And she said she was working as kind of a screener
or greeter or whatever you call it where they
come in the front door. A day or two before,
it might have been two or three days. I can't
remember the exact date, but a couple was carrying
what appeared to be a baby and they went to the
back and they... we're talking to one of the
employees back there and all of a sudden she
hears this squeaking noise and she says it didn't
really sound like a baby but it piqued her interest
and so she goes back and they have a small private
monkey oh boy wearing a diaper and they're holding
it talking to this this employee about it and
she overheard them saying that Well, we brought
it in from Thailand and that was illegal but
now that it's here it's legal, you know Obviously
they had some they had read something incorrectly
but so she she became quite alarmed about it
and Without going into too big of details, but
apparently she called local police Washington
Department of Fish and Wildlife the FBI in Washington
DC, who actually referred her to Immigration
and Customs Enforcement in Spokane. So she was,
she was determined to get to the bottom of this.
And maybe I can tell you why later, but I didn't
find it until after vacation was over why she
was so inspired. There's two aspects to this.
One is, first of all, she was persistent, right?
Like she didn't know who to call. So she starts
with the police then probably the police referred
her to the state wildlife agency. I assume she
got, you know, a kind of a ho hum response because
she kept they obviously didn't help her. But
you know, I think this is actually a testament
to the fact that you were dialed in with some
of these other agencies. And it illustrates the
very important point that fish and wildlife agents,
especially when they're working in remote areas
or in single agent stations, they have to be
connected with other law enforcement agencies
because the public often does not know that the
US Fish and Wildlife Service even exists as a
law enforcement agency. They don't know who to
call. So if you're not connected in with Homeland
Security or FBI or other agencies, nobody will
know to call you, right? So thank goodness. Thank
goodness you were connected in with Homeland
Security Immigration Customs Enforcement so they
knew to call you. You told me before, but this
tipster had seen a movie recently, right? And
that's why she was concerned. What was that movie?
I forget the title. After the case was over,
we contacted her and we visited for a while.
She said she had rented the movie Outbreak. Outbreak.
The night before this happened. Yeah, the one
with Dustin Hoffman and they had to bomb the
town or something because of the disease outbreak.
She was inspired. The night before this happened.
The night before. She went to Blockbuster Video.
Some of your listeners may not know what Blockbuster
Video is, but she rented the movie Outbreak.
Well, and that movie is basically about a disease
that gets into a very infectious disease that
gets into the human population that originates
in primates, actually, which there are diseases
like that, such as Ebola. So then my next question
to you is, you know, why is smuggling? Well,
first of all, the other there's so many interesting
things about this. Like, I love I love the fact
that the people in the store just willingly tell
a store clerk that it was illegal to bring it
from Thailand, but now of course now it's legal.
It's amazing what people will say out in public,
but from your perspective as a Fish and Wildlife
agent, there's multiple, I know there's gonna
be multiple reasons for this, but why is smuggling
a monkey or bringing a monkey into the United
States a crime of concern for a U .S. Fish and
Wildlife Service agent? Well, first off, they're
protected under the, you know, they're listed
as under CITES, Convention on International Trade
and Endangered Species, as Appendix 2. And there
has to be a permitting process in order to get
them into the country. Monkeys are also dangerous
animals, or primates are. And many states now
have laws prohibiting possession, ownership,
sale, transfer, or whatever, primates. And part
of the reason for that is they do carry some
very serious diseases. And, you know, and plus
they're mean. They really are. And yeah, when
this case got going, we found some fascinating
emails that these people received about from
renowned or well -known primate or monkey breeders
who said, Why did you, how do you have a rhesus
macaque? It'll only, or one of the emails in
particular said, this will kill your daughter.
This monkey will kill you. And I mean, they were
really upset about it. And so they are, they're
dangerous animals. And, you know, there's only
certain reasons that you can bring one into the
country. And that's for educational purposes,
like a zoo or for, you know, research, medical
research. Right. And monkeys have been in the
news recently about regarding another US Fish
and Wildlife Service case called Operation Long
Tail Liberation. And that particular case involved
an investigation into the illegal importation
of primates for the medical research trade. And
what you're dealing with is very different here.
This is an individual who's bringing in a monkey,
presumably as a pet, right? Rather than as a...
Right. Yeah. Which... in many ways makes it more
dangerous than the primates who are smuggled
in for medical research because those primates
at least are isolated away from the public. In
this situation, you've got this person traipsing
around Spokane, Washington with this live primate
that maybe just weeks before had been living
in a foreign country exposed to who knows what.
Primates yeah primates can carry all kinds of
diseases that can be transmitted to humans including
you know tuberculosis Ebola of course is the
big one but You know you name it there because
they are primates and we're primates there are
many diseases that co -infect all of both both
species Chris so tell me about see how you've
got this detail from this Homeland Security Special
Agent. What do you do next? What's the next plan?
We talked and decided we kind of put together
an initial investigative plan because he was
in Spokane. So he was right there where this
event happened and presumably where the monkey
was. I was in Tri -Cities, you know, 100 miles
away or so. And so we agreed that Jack would...
try to run down and identify who these people
were. My job was going to be figure out, reach
out to the U .S. Attorney's office, because it
was more likely going to be a Fish and Wildlife
case. So set up that, figure out what we're going
to do with this monkey when we get it, and then
try to figure out how we're going to deal with
it. I mean, not just what we're going to do with
it, how are we going to Are we going to euthanize
it or are we going to keep it alive or what?
And so that was going to be my role in this initially
until we got these people identified. The other
reason I asked Jack to do this is because him
being in the Immigration and Customs Enforcement
or Homeland Security, he would have access to
a lot of databases. that we did not. You know,
like National Crime Information Center, I didn't
have a terminal in that refuge office, as well
as some other local and statewide intel databases
where it might be a little easier to identify
these suspects. Yeah, Homeland Security has,
because of their connection with US Immigration,
they have access to incredible databases about
basically who comes and goes from the United
States right yeah they can kind of backtrack
and figure out who arrived in the US at a particular
date and even a particular time so that's a very
valuable very valuable partner to have in an
investigation like this for sure Huge, huge.
I mean, I've tried to do that on my own as a
Fish and Wildlife agent. You have to go through
the subpoena process, and it's a nightmare. Whereas
immigration, they've got it right there in front
of them. And that was just a huge help to this
case. So that's where this started. I was going
to die at a park, Jack had a park. And when you
reached out to the US Attorney's Office, what
was their reaction to this case? Well, the first
person I talked to was a guy with environmental
crime section in Maine justice, you know, and
Bob and and he's rest his soul, you know, but
he he he and I had worked on things before and
When I called Bob about it, I said told him the
case and he said I said What do I do with this
monkey? and he was like His comment was, I don't
care if you put it in the freezer, but it doesn't
need to be out in the public. Okay, that was
one answer. Then I reached out to the Spokane,
the Eastern District of Washington, and I talked
to the intake officer there, and they assigned
it to a U .S. attorney named Stephanie Van Maer,
who is just a blessing. She consulted with the
chief criminal deputy, and they said, this thing
needs to stay alive because federal rules of
criminal procedure require that you preserve
evidence intact. If at all possible. And so they
said, we got to keep this thing alive. And, you
know, poor Stephanie, she caught a lot of grief
over having a monkey smuggling case. You know,
she came into her office and the thing was decorated
with stuffed monkeys. Well, and you know, this
is a good place to talk about two things. One
is, in my experience over the years, there are
times when you do have to destroy animals. For
example, when they're invasive species come into
the United States, those animals are often humanely
euthanized and destroyed. But, you know, in my
experience, if you can, it's important to try
to save the animals that you end up confiscating,
for just being a good person aspect of it. You
want these animals to live. But also, there's
a headline element to this too, right? The public
doesn't want these animals killed. And so if
you can avoid it, it's good. I had not ever considered
the whole federal rules of criminal procedure,
though, or the evidentiary rules about maintaining
the evidence in its current state. That's really
interesting. But we often do keep animals, you
know, alive. Sometimes we have to care for them,
but usually zoos or some other facility will
care for them while we're waiting to go to trial.
That's interesting. The other thing is, you pointed
out that this assistant US attorney got a lot
of, you know, fun loving grief about it from
her office mates. But I remember hearing about
this case as when it came up, you know, I was
based in Los Angeles at this time. And our first
reaction, all of the agents in LA who prided
themselves on, you know, we work on international
trafficking cases, we were like, we were like,
what's Corky Roberts doing with a smuggling case
up in Washington? Yeah, we were like, we were
so surprised. And, you know, it's not the usual
kind of case you deal with in a smaller area
like that, especially not, there's no international
airport there that necessarily goes to and from
Spokane, like, Like down in LA, where we see
a lot of art to and from Thailand, down in LA,
we see a lot of people coming and going from
Southeast Asia. It was just funny because it's
like, what's a monkey case going on? Why is there
a monkey smuggling case going on in Washington?
I think once Stephanie got her teeth into it,
she's like, I'm not giving this one out. She
said, I've caught enough grief on this. And I
think she actually enjoyed it after a while.
But it was a challenge. Don't worry about it.
Yeah, absolutely. I'm sure she did. OK, so now,
rather than working with a Department of Justice
lawyer out of DC, you're working with a local
assistant US attorney at the US attorney's office
there in Spokane. She's getting ribbed by her
colleagues, but she's on board. What happened
next? Did you figure out who this person was?
How did you figure out who this person was that
went into the story? We did. I mean, I think
the first thing is, yeah, we did. Jack? He went
and interviewed people at this fashion bug store
and they were very hesitant, but you know, I
think once he convinced them that this is a federal
matter, they started to open up a little bit.
And he, just a very short order, he got the suspects
identified in the Spokane area. And Gypsy Lawson
and James Pratt were the couple that came into
the store that day. Do you know how he figured
out it was Gypsy Lawson and her boyfriend Jack?
It was a phone number. He got a phone number
and ran that through this database and it came
back to this James Pratt. And I think eventually
then he... I remember correctly, one of the clerks
at the stores knew that it was Gypsy Lawson.
And then he started doing the homework and running
the immigration databases and things and figured
out that Gypsy had traveled to Thailand first
part of November. And then Jack identified Gypsy's
mom as going with her or Gypsy going with her
mother to Thailand. And they went there the first
quarter of November and came back right around
the end of November. They left from Spokane,
went to Korea, then to Thailand, and they came
back through LA and then rented a car and drove
to Spokane. Oh, strange. That is interesting.
Why would that happen? Yeah. Why not fly up from
LA to Spokane? And I have to tell you another
as soon as we found out. So here we are the agents
in Los Angeles. So first thing we find out is
Corky Roberts is working on a monkey smuggling
case in Washington. That's unusual. And then
we find out his suspect came through LA and we
didn't catch her. You know, that was, we were,
we were watching this case with great interest,
Corky. I got to tell you down in our office.
Okay. So, so now you've got a gypsy Lawson and
her mom identified as having traveled to Thailand.
Um, now what, what do you do next? Well, we had
to figure out what to do. We knew we were working
on a warrant to find out once we figured out
where this monkey was. And so we, found Gypsy's
residence, and then we identified Fran's residence,
which Fran Ogren was her mother, up in Northport,
Washington, kind of in the middle of nowhere.
And, you know, where is the monkey? Is it in
Northport or is it in Colville? So we were working
on warrants for both of them. But, you know,
in the meantime, we still had to figure out what
to do with this thing. Right. Because I contacted
the Centers for Disease Control to find out.
What are we dealing with? Right. Because you've
got, that is one thing unlike a lot of law enforcement
officers, fish and wildlife agents, a lot of
our evidence is alive and it needs to be fed.
And it could be dangerous for a lot of reasons.
And that's not something that most law enforcement
officers have to deal with, is live evidence.
No, that's true. And you can't just put it in
a shelf and lock her in. And you've got not only
public safety issues now because it's a primate,
but you've got safety issues for you. and all
of the other law enforcement officers who are
going to work with you on a potential warrant.
When you're talking about a warrant, you're talking
about you're trying to get probable cause, develop
probable cause to get search warrants, right?
Right. So what did you learn when you called
CDC? What was their reaction to this call? This
was a very interesting conversation. I called
up and I got ahold of a, you know, communicable
disease specialist and I can't remember her name
now, of course, but I explained the situation
to her and she said, Oh, she said, uh, how long
is this primate been in the country? And I said,
yeah, four weeks, maybe four to five weeks. Right.
She said, okay, that rules out phyloviruses.
And I'm like, okay, you have to, you have to
speak English. I don't know what to talk about.
She said, Well, like Ebola, you know what that
is? I said, yeah, I've heard of that. And I said,
so how do you know it rules out phyloviruses?
And she said, well, because there'd be dead people
everywhere by now. Oh, my God. That must have
sent a shiver down your spine, right? I said,
now you have my attention. So I said, OK, so
now that we can breathe that sign of relief,
you know what else? And she went through a list
of things. that stick with me was tuberculosis
was one and uh then the herpes herpes viruses
which you know crossing the human boundary can
lead to encephalitis and you know all kinds of
horrible things so you know we were worried we
didn't know if we were going to have to talk
to everybody on the plane you know how are we
going to deal with this and so uh we weren't
real sure and so Got that figured out and then
we said, what? Okay, so we're talking about doing
search warrants, seize a live primate, and we
have to be prepared for things that we're not
normally prepared for when we go do search warrants.
You know, search warrants, okay, bad guys and
edge weapons and firearms and you know, that
kind of thing. You know, drugs, fentanyl exposure.
This is like, do we go in with Tyvek suits on?
How do we deal with it? When we get it, what
do we do with it? Do we carry it out and put
it in the pickup? No. Put it in a dog carrier
or what do you do with it? Yeah. I call vets,
I call the zoos, I call the number of places.
Could you keep this thing? Nobody wanted it in
Seattle. Nobody wanted it. I think CDC finally
referred me to quarantined, primate quarantined
until the University of California at Davis.
And I talked to them and got ahold of them and
they said, yeah, we can help you. We can do this
for a fee, of course. And this brought in a whole
new level of bureaucracy and bureaucratic involvement,
which we can go into or not. Oh, yeah, we got
to go into it because this is part of what it
takes. How do I get it? Yeah. How do I get it
there? How do I get this thing to you? I can't
put it in my pick up. I can't put it on Alaska
Airlines. And she said, give this guy a call.
OK. And so I called up this number and the guy
answered the phone. Duncan with furry freighters,
furry freighters, furry freighters. And I'm like.
OK, you can tell he was driving down the road.
You could hear the wind noise in the background.
I said, OK. Prairie freighters. Do you transfer
transport primates? That's all I do. That's all
he does. I said, you have a job to transport
primates. He said, yes. And I said, well, I got
a story for it. Let me tell you a story. I told
him a story and I said, uh, sometime here in
the next couple of weeks, we're going to need
you to pick up a primate and spoke in Washington.
He said, give me a few days notice and call me
with an address and I will be there. With a trailer
that's equipped to transport quarantined or non
-quarantined primates. Wow. Yeah, and it was,
I was stunned. First of all, I couldn't believe
somebody actually has a job transporting unquarantined
primates, but he does. Exactly. But also, whew,
what a relief, right? Oh yeah, it was until I
tried to get permission to spend the money to
do it. Yeah. So that was another, that's a whole
nother topic about, you know, sometimes for the
most part during my career, I, we had excellent
supervisory agents, you know, who understood
what it took to do the job, but every once in
a while that was not the case. And I, you know,
I've talked to more than a few agents and I know
during the latter part of my career, I spent
a lot of time, I spent as much time trying to
outthink And out maneuver the regional special
agent in charge as I did bad guys, you know This
is frustrating but I Assume at some point you
explained and and usually what got the attention
of senior management was when you explained to
them The alternative right and the alternative
is you're gonna have a really bad headline on
your hands If you don't pony up the money to
help me safely move this primate And I assume
that's what happened here, right? You explained
the alternative consequences. That and I explained
to them that they were going to have to call
the U .S. Attorney's Office and explain to them.
And they're like, oh, we can't, yeah. Okay, I
guess so. Maybe we can have a bake sale or something
and we can keep the money or we can make the
money to do this with a bake sale or something.
I'm just making that up. Yeah, that's sometimes
that's how they acted. But when you think about,
you know, you've got the animal care issue first,
but you also have the public safety issue. It's
not money. Money should never be an issue on
that one. You have to do it. So okay, so that's
relief. You've got the you've got a plan now
for how you're going to deal with this primate.
And you know, I think this is a good opportunity
to point something out. This was 2007 2008 ish,
right? So, you know, at that time, the way that
US Fish and Wildlife Service agents across the
country and wildlife inspectors dealt with live
wildlife that they had confiscated, it was very
grassroots, ad hoc. It really came down to who
you knew, right? So in LA, we had really good
relationships with the San Diego Zoo, the LA
Zoo, different, you know, ACA approved animal
care facilities. And it really came down to I
happen to have those phone numbers in my phone
and if I seized a live animal I knew who to call
and say hey can you can you do me a favor basically
can you hang on to this animal maybe for weeks
maybe for months while we process the case now
thanks to an agent you and I both know named
Aaron Dean who was later the resident agent in
charge in Los Angeles toward the end of her career
she kind of pioneered this live Live Wildlife
Confiscation Network, and she coordinated with
the AZA, I always forget, Association of Zoological,
I always forget what AZA stands for, but it's
the accreditation organization for zoos. She
coordinated with them so that there is now in
place a system, a process for how Zoos are committed
now to helping US Fish and Wildlife Service and
other agencies house and deal with confiscated
live wildlife. But so now at least there's a
system. So a brand new agent who doesn't have
contacts, there's a way for them to access this
live wildlife confiscation network and find a
home for their animal without a whole lot of
work on their part. But back. prior to this,
you know, thanks, thank you, Aaron Dean. But
prior to this, at the time, at the time you're
dealing with this primate, none of that existed.
And you, you, Corky Roberts, in addition to doing
your investigation of this crime, had to find
a home for this primate. And that's, it's hard
to articulate how much work that is and how stressful
it is. That was tough. That really was tough.
Very stressful. Okay, so now you got it worked
out. How did it, how did it come or how did the
probable cause develop for your search warrants?
Did you? Oh, we just, we had lots of probable
cause by this time. Now, Jack McLean, the ICE
investigator, he actually contacted James Pratt,
the gypsy, and had them meet him down at the
Homeland Security office. And he told them right
up front. He says, I understand you guys have
a primate that you brought in. Yeah, I confronted
him. Well, he confronted them off about and they
he wanted to interview them separately and Jimmy
wanted to be present during gypsy's interview
and so He wouldn't let him so that was pretty
much the end of the interview. But during that
process when Jack first reached out to James
Pratt and James told him that oh, no, this is
all a misunderstanding We actually bought this
monkey in Southern, California from a dog breeder
Well, they've admitted they have the monkey,
right? Perfect. Yeah, and they also have a false
statement. Now we have a false statement, too.
At least we eventually came up with one. False
statement, and that's the classic Martha Stewart
crime. If you lie to a federal agent, that's
a felony. Yep, it is. And it's a great tool.
So we ended up, we wrote up search warrants for
both Gypsy's house in Spokane and her mom's dad's
house or stepdad's house up in North Port, Washington.
We had to do simultaneous search warrants on
these two places because by this time, they knew
we were looking for this monkey. That thing could
disappear, easy. Yeah, they could have turned
it loose. They could have done a lot of things,
but we were fortunate that it did not happen,
but we thought maybe they don't know we know
about. mom up in Spokane or up in Northport.
And so maybe it's up there. And so we ended up
getting warrants from both places. Perfect. Perfect.
So when you do this warrant, you had talked earlier
about, holy cow, what do we do? Do we wear a
Tyvek suit? What did you decide? How did you
decide to handle the safety issues? That was
a very interesting part, you know, because we
always do the search warrant briefings with our
teams. And so we had homeland security. We had
Fish and Wildlife, basically the entire Washington
and Idaho contingent were there for this thing,
as well as state officers. And so we had this
briefing and talked about the issues that we
were dealing with. And I remember one of the
Homeland Security agents said, this is the first
time in my career that I'm ever going into a
search warrant with a shotgun loaded with bird
shots. And the purpose of that was what? We weren't
sure. We weren't sure if this thing was going
to be hanging from a curtain or a tack or start
scratching and clawing and biting. We just weren't
sure what kind of hazard we were dealing with.
That's always stuck with me going into a search
warrant with bird shot. Because there could be
a crazed monkey running around the house. Yeah.
And you just didn't know. And it's no joke. I
mean, even though macaques are fairly small,
you know, I think their canine teeth are two
inches plus long. They're very dirty. Their hands
and their feet are extremely dirty. They often
have their own urine and feces on their hands
and feet. So even a fingernail scratch from a
primate like a macaque. kit could be deadly.
It could introduce a really infectious disease
into whoever got scratched. So yeah, I don't
blame you for taking a shotgun with birdshot
in it just in case you have to shoot in a wild
attack. So what about the Tyvek suits? How'd
you handle your potential exposure to airborne?
We did we did we did have masks. Okay, we had
like booties on and that kind of thing, you know,
but we didn't do the whole Tyvek suit thing.
It just did a little bit too, too much. Yeah.
He got weapons and all kinds of things you got
to have. And it just seemed a little bit too
complicated to try to do that. Yeah. We were
hoping that we didn't have to worry that this
was an oversight that we weren't going to regret.
So they're not an oversight. Everything you do
in law enforcement is a risk, and it's a calculated
risk, and you try to minimize risk, but there's
always a risk, right? So you have to make some
decisions. And so now you've got a multi -agency
team. You have US Fish and Wildlife Service agents.
You've got Homeland Security or ICE agents, plus
uniformed state wildlife officers from the wildlife
department. or Washington Department of Fish
and Wildlife. You're going to hit both houses
at the same time, I assume, right? So that evidence
doesn't disappear. Correct. So that's another
difficult thing is to coordinate teams that have
to execute warrants at the same time. That's
a lot of people coordination. It was. And it
was difficult because in Northport where the
team that I was on with at Fran's house, The
cell coverage is very spotty, but we made it
happen. It worked out. We all hit the place at
the same time and we had no problem getting in.
They came to the door up in North Park. We're
not happy to see us, but they were cooperative.
combat everything like that. I mean, they were
an elderly couple. That's the North Forks, the
mom's house, right? That was mom's house. And
the house in Spokane, they had a little more
complication there because it had like a big
screen metal door on it. Okay. And knocked on
the door and Gypsy would not come to the door.
She would not answer the door. And finally they
got ahold of Jimmy. who was working or out somewhere.
And he called her and said, you need to open
the door right now. And so she finally let him
in. Yeah. I mean, the next step is you're going
to, you're going to forcibly open the door. Right.
Yeah. Okay. So which warrant were you on? Were
you up North Fork at the mom's house or down?
I was in North Fork at the mom's house. Correct.
Okay. And Steve Furr was the team leader on the
one in. Spokane. Okay. Yeah. Steve was a guest
of ours two weeks ago. So that's awesome. Uh,
okay. So tell me about that. What happened? You
go in, uh, what do you see up on your, your warrant
there in the North part? In the North part, we,
we actually sat down with Fran and she said,
the monkey is not here. Okay. Okay. So, but we
cleared the house and you know, did whatever
we're supposed to do. And like I said, they were
pretty cooperative. Um, we ended up, seizing
a significant amount of records from French.
He was a pretty notorious diary keeper. She kept
a pretty detailed diary of their whole trip,
as well as a computer with pictures and emails
and all kinds of things on it. So it was a treasure
trove of evidence in this case. But she lauded
up. She finally said, no, I think I probably
need to consult with a term in. We respected
her wishes. Yep. Yep. That's one of those constitutional
things. If somebody is kind of in a custodial
environment and they request an attorney, all
questioning stops. No question, right? Yep. What
happened down at the Spokane warrant? Spokane
warrant, like I said, they had a hard time getting
in the door and they finally did. And they went
through the house one or two times. No monkey.
They couldn't find it. That's kind of a no -shit
moment. Yeah, that is. Yeah, we've all been there,
you know, in some way or another. But they finally,
Steve, I think he sat down with Gypsy and said,
where is it? And it was in the dog's kennel.
It was there. In the kennel crate with the dog.
Right there in Plainview. Right there in Plainview.
And I remember Steve told the story that he's...
sitting there in the bedroom and he's like, what
in the world, you know, what are we going to
do? And the bottom drawer of the dresser comes
out on its own. It opens and a skunk gets out,
crawls out of the skunk, crawls out of the dresser
and goes over in the corner of the house and
pees and then goes back and gets in the dresser
drawer. And he said, he was like, this is, this
is, this is a This is surreal. This can't be
happening. But then about that time, they found
the monkey. It was in the thing, and the guys
from furry freighters came in, grabbed the monkey,
signed the chain of custody information. They
had a trailer. They had all kinds of food and
everything in there for it, and off they went.
Perfect, perfect execution. Yeah. I'd never heard
the skunk part before, but heck, if you wrote
a screenplay that had that in it, nobody would
believe it. That is an awesome story, actually.
That sounds even better than a lot of the monkey
part. I can just see Steve's face too as a skunk
comes out, piece in the corner, goes back in
his drawer. Down at the Spokane warrant, I assume
Steve's team did some interviews as well. What'd
they get out of the... I don't think they...
I think same thing. They pretty much... I think
everybody pretty well lawyered up by that time.
But you recovered a lot of documents. You said,
what did you learn from these documents about
how did Gypsy and her mom do this? What was the
plan? What was the scheme? How did it all happen?
How'd they get this primate into the U .S.? So,
so the whole plan started, I guess Gipsy and
her mother were quite estranged for a while.
And Fran was a freelance author and she got a
contract or an offer from like Western Horseman
magazine to go to Thailand and do an article
on an elephant training facility. And so sometime
in the interim, between when this contract was
funded, Western Horsemen magazine or whatever
magazine it was, I think it went out of business.
So she was pretty disappointed. So Carl, her
husband said, I'll pay your way, take Gypsy with
you and y 'all have a great time. So they went,
they went over there. And from what I remember
from the trial and from everything, I don't think
there was ever any plan to get a monkey until
they got there. Oh, okay. And when they got there,
Gypsy fell in love with monkeys and it became,
and Fran even wrote this in her diary. This has
become a monkey quest to find a monkey. And so
they began a quest to, you know, find Gypsy a
pet monkey. And then, you know, through the emails
and the diary that we eventually read and seized.
you know, an actual email account from Gmail
that we got. We learned that they went to a monkey
training facility. They contacted monkey breeders
who were advertising monkeys for sale and one
guy in Cameroon. And they reached out to him
while they were in Bangkok to see if he could
send them a monkey in Bangkok, you know, from
Cameroon. And oh yeah, they were going all in.
And so they ended up getting a hold of a guy
named Boris. from the Thai horse farm. How they
found him, I don't call exactly, but they got
hold of Boris and they said they wanted to find
the monkey kid. So Boris went on a mission. One
of the comical stories that came out in the email
or the diary was they went to a town called Chiang
Mai, which is known for free ranging monkeys
everywhere. Yep. That's in the northern part
of Thailand. Yep. Right. And they got there and
they, checked into a hotel and there were howler
monkeys all over I think there were howler monkeys
all over the place and so one was walking by
the sliding door and Fran wrote that gypsy reached
out grabbed a baby monkey off that one's back
slammed the door an entire troop of howler monkeys
came up and started beating on the door. In the
meantime, this little baby monkey is running
roughshod around this room. This is a circus.
I'm reading this story and I'm just howling,
laughing. I can't believe it's happening. Also
infuriating because it's super dangerous to do
that. That female mother monkey could have really
hurt. Oh yeah. But also cruel. That's cruel as
you can be. It is. As cruel as you can be. Unbelievable.
And so they finally couldn't catch this thing.
So they opened the door and it ran out into the
hallway of the hotel and ran down the hallway
and the maids are scattered everywhere and everything
settled down finally. But around the 25th or
24th or 25th of November, they received an email
from Boris that he thinks he'd found them a monkey.
Okay. And so they went to this some remote village
with him. And I actually think this village may
have been in Burma, but I couldn't never, or
me and Mark, I couldn't never prove that part,
but it seemed like it. It looked like there were
border crossings that they were waiting at. And
they went to a village and there was pictures
of this small rhesus macaque inside of the cage.
And next picture you see is gypsies got it in
this car and they're driving away. Do you know
how much they paid for it? I don't know. I never
did find out. Never heard. I don't know if they
paid anything or they gifted them. They traded
something. I don't know. I did some work in Thailand
as an agent around 2010. I spent about six months
there doing some work as an agent. And I was
shocked at how easy it is to buy exotic wild
animals pretty much throughout Thailand. In fact,
in many cities. people will approach you on the
street with, you know, slow lorises, different
type, different wild animals and just offer to
sell them to you right there on the spot. It's
a, it's a, it's not good. So it doesn't surprise
me that she actually surprises me that it was
as difficult as it was for her to find somebody
to sell her a baby. But, okay, so, so now she's
got it in Thailand with her. How the heck does
she get it back to the States? Apparently they
took a bus from wherever they obtained this monkey
from the Thai horse farm back to Bangkok. And
they sedated the monkey with sleeping pills,
Xanax, and God knows what else they had. And
they got to Bangkok and now they're in a quandary.
We have a 26 hour flight or 24 hour flight. We
have to keep this thing sedated. And they actually
found a veterinarian to give them sedatives to
give this maybe a monkey while they transport.
Wow. So how does... So, you know, okay, this
raises all kinds of other issues. You're going
to sit on an airplane with 400, 300 other people
in an international flight, like you said, 17,
24 hours inside the passenger cabin with an animal
that could be carrying infectious diseases. I
mean, the negligence of the gypsy on this is
phenomenal. The risk to the public is huge. And
you know, it just highlights the importance of,
you know, counter wildlife trafficking, law enforcement
efforts, not just to save animals, but to protect
the public from exposure to zoonotic diseases
like this. Okay, so, so I'm thinking as a smuggler,
all right. You know, do I stick it in a handbag?
How do I get it? You got to pass through security.
You got to pass through US Customs, through Thai
Customs, Thai Security, which is very tight.
You know, they have strong security at their
airports. I would think I'm going to get caught
with this monkey in a handbag or a backpack.
How the heck did they get it through security
on the Thai side? And how in the world did they
get it through US Customs in past? our crack
wildlife inspectors in Los Angeles. How did they
do it? They had a pouch and they made it look
like Gypsy was pregnant. Oh my God. They strapped
something to the front of her under her clothes
and made it look like she was pregnant. Made
it look like she was pregnant. And that was quite
revealing when we saw the pictures. We didn't
know at this point. Yeah. You see, you see pictures
from when they first got to Thailand and here's
this relatively slim young lady posing in front
of the, you know, the exotic trees and flowers
in Thailand. And then, you know, three weeks
later, she's obviously, you know, eight months
pregnant. Yeah. There's pictures of her in the,
in the Thailand airport standing in front of
a gate. I can't remember the name of the airport
in Thailand or in Bangkok, but obviously very
pregnant. Unbelievable. So she smuggled this
animal on her body, basically. On her body, correct.
You just think about the consequences if that
sedatives that she was given the monkey could
have killed it, but it also might not have worked.
And can you imagine this monkey waking up in
the middle of a flight? Talk about the snakes
on a plane situation. This is Yeah Swing in from
the you know So that's incredible and You know
just the idea that she passed through us customs
at LAX passed through Thai customs It's no wonder
they decided to rent that car and drive it up
to Washington because they were probably sweating
bricks by that time. And the monkey had been
sedated for 24 hours plus. So crazy. Yeah. And
apparently they had some extra sedative. So they
kept shooting it. When it would start to stir,
they'd give it some more. It's a wonder they
didn't kill it. Yeah, it's a wonder they didn't
kill it or give it brain damage or something
like that. Oh, they did. So they did that. It
did cause brain damage. It does cause some tremors.
So the monkey has, I don't know if it's still
alive either, but it did have tremors for several
years after that. So now what? You've got all
this information. Did you arrest them? No, we
didn't. Okay. But did they get charged? They
did get charged. They got indicted and then there
was a superseding indictment several months later,
but now they were never arrested. What did you
charge them with? They charged initially they
were charged with smuggling conspiracy to smuggle
Lacey act and the false statement and then the
superseding indictment was trimmed down to basically
Smuggling conspiracy to smuggle and the false
statement. Those are all serious Every crime
you just mentioned including the Lacey act. Those
are all felonies And then the minimum on those
is five years, $250 ,000 fine. I mean, that'd
be the maximum penalty, but that's the lowest
of those. Smuggling is 20 years. Yeah, I think
it's 20 years. Yeah, it's 20 for inbound smuggling.
It's 20. So those are some serious crimes that
they were charged with. What did they do? Did
they plead guilty or they go to trial? They did
not. They went to trial. They went to trial.
They went to trial and all three had public defenders.
Now, Jimmy Pratt, he agreed to plead guilty to
a misdemeanor. Okay. And he didn't go to Thailand.
He was only involved kind of after the fact,
right? But he was still, he was still charged
with conspiracy and smuggling itself because
he concealed, you know, the, the, after the fact.
And, and, uh, so, yeah, so he was still charged
with smuggling, but he pled guilty to, I think
it was a Lacey act, if I'm not mistaken. Right.
I'm drawing a blank here right now. He pled guilty
to a misdemeanor in exchange for testifying against
gypsy and Fran. Oh, wow. He turned on him. He
did. Okay. He did. So they, they actually went
all the way for a jury trial though, Fran. They
went all the way. Yep. Yep. And what happened
there? You know, you asked me a couple of weeks
ago about their defense and they really didn't
have one. There was no defense, but I really
think that the lawyers were, were free of course
in a public defender. And I, I, I think that
Fran, and was hoping for jury nullification.
I think that she was hoping that they would see
the ridiculousness of this whole thing and that
the jury would nullify it. Or, and she also,
I think she wanted to write a story. She wanted
to expose the big, bad federal government taking
on these poor people who were just trying to
take care of a primate. And, you know, it didn't
work. But it didn't. I mean, she actually petitioned
all the way through the Supreme Court. Oh, no
kidding. They got denied. They got denied. So
I take it they were both convicted after their
jury trial. They were both convicted. And then
they went through the appeal process and tried
and successful. Do you remember what they were
sentenced to? They were sentenced, they both
got 60 days and $4 ,200 in restitution or something
like that. It was, it was amenable. And I don't
know that they ever, either one of them ever
served a day. Gypsy passed away. several months
after the trial. And I think it was an automobile
accident. Fran, she continued to fight this all
the way through the Supreme Court. And I remember
her attorney, her public defender, when he first,
I think this was one of his first cases that
he took on. And so he was kind of a true believer
there for a while. But he called me after about
three years and he says, She just, she wants
her stuff back. Would you just give it to her?
Her documents. There was like some documents,
some receipts from, you know, an elephant farm
or something in Bangkok, you know, that we just,
we just grabbed a whole bunch of stuff. Yeah,
I'll be glad to. He just says, just, just make
her go away. I just, I just want. You know, so
talking about the sentences, the way, unfortunately,
There's something called the US sentencing guidelines,
federal sentencing guidelines. They're not mandatory.
They're advisory for judges to follow, but they,
I don't know if you know this, Corky, but they
have not been updated. Basically in the sentencing
guidelines, you can look up by crime kind of
where a person falls and it gives a range just
so listeners understand. But the sentencing guidelines
related to wildlife crimes have not been updated
for 40 years. Yeah, and they're hopelessly, they're
very badly outdated. They have not been adjusted
to reflect the increase in wildlife trafficking
and crime. And so a lot of times these people
don't get jail time because of the way the sentencing
guidelines play out for them, even after they
go to a jury trial and they're convicted. The
plus side is, and I think it's important to remember
is, first when it comes to the sentencing they
were convicted of felonies and Once that's on
your record that has a dramatic impact on your
life to have a felony conviction There's lots
of things sometimes it can be difficult to get
certain types of jobs Certainly if you commit
other crimes in the future Having had a felony
conviction will almost guarantee that you go
to jail for future crimes including future wildlife
crimes So it does have a deterrent impact. So
I hope you don't feel You know, I hope at the
time you didn't, and now you don't feel that
it wasn't worth it, because I see this case as
very important, and even though they didn't do
jail time, it's still a good sentence, because
they did it. It is. No, it was. I've had worse,
believe me. Yeah, true. I mean, I've had just
the opposite. I had a guy get three days in jail
for a duck stamp one time, but that was in Fairbanks,
Alaska in a different circumstance, but that
was interesting. It was, it was an important
case. I mean, this made worldwide press. I mean,
it was all over. It was around and, you know,
hopefully some people looked at it, who went
to Thailand and elsewhere, Korea and places where
you could buy wildlife on the street. And they
realized, oh, that's beautiful. Maybe I'll just
take a picture and take it home with me. You
know, which I used to tell people that I said,
take a picture of them. If you buy something
that's made out of, you know, pangolin shells
or whatever, you're going to look at it, it's
going to sit there and you know, but take a picture
of it, you got the picture forever. Yeah. And
you know, that's, that's another important thing
is it deters people from doing this. And the
real insidious thing about what Gypsy and her
mom did, they weren't bringing this monkey in
to sell it. It's not part, like they were part
of a trafficking scheme, but Walking around with
a monkey on their shoulder in Spokane wherever
taking pictures of it putting on social media
That actually encourages other people who never
would have thought about it before They might
say oh, that's so cute. I want one and now the
Lawson's gypsy and her mom are creating a demand
for monkeys. You know what I mean? So that's
why this case as even though it's a one -off.
This is the one time they did it There's no evidence
that we're going to do it again or sell the monkey.
Still critically important to deter future bad
behavior by other people who, you know, but for
Meeting the Lawson's or seeing their social media
posts never would have considered buying a monkey
You just don't want the demand to get started
and so good to nip this in the bud I love I love
this case. I love that. This is one of my favorite
all -time cases That I knew I love it. So many
nuances to this Yes, totally and you know, everybody's
gonna want to know Corky what happened to the
monkey? Well the monkey Ended up getting it through
quarantine. They did not have any communicable
diseases or anything like that. They did have
tremors, so it developed some shakiness and we
ended up finding a place in Vancouver, Washington
and it was a primate rescue facility that basically
rescued primates and it was a nice lady who I
had a soft spot for Brian Mates. She willingly
took this on and without charging us anything,
even though I still feel guilty about that, that
we never gave her a few grand to raise this monkey.
To be honest with you, that was 2008, 2009. By
that time, I have no idea where Apu, that was
the monkey's name. I have no idea if they're
still in business. whatever happened to this
thing. But she checked with me a few times after
that, you know, once a year or so and just told
me how Appu was doing. And but yeah, he was ill.
He was not not well from probably just from being
sedated. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But at least he
had a safe place at a permitted facility that
knew how to care for him and would do it safely.
So that's a good ending for Appu as far as I'm
concerned, because there's there's no way no
way you can take him back to the wild. So No
That's awesome Corky what I'm gonna try to do
is Just for our listeners if if they're interested
in more information about this case I'm gonna
try to post some of the documents from the court
proceedings on Yeah on the website. I'll put
it on NatureSecretService .com if anybody's interested
you can go to the website look for this episode
and you'll you'll get some access to other documents
and Maybe I'll get you to send me some photos
and stuff Did I send you the email to the witches
group? Yep. Okay. I was going to mention that
and I forgot about it, but that was one of my
favorites. Yeah, we're running out of time now,
but I meant to ask you about the whole witches
group, but yeah, there's a witch element to this
whole case. But maybe we'll just have that as
a teaser. I'll try to put some of that information
up there on the website. But Corky, I want to
thank you so much for coming on the show to tell
this story. You're a great storyteller. This
is an excellent case. I'm so happy that you got
a taste of the international trafficking there
in the Tri -Cities, the Spokane area. I appreciate
you being with us. I know you're headed off now
soon for the fire season. You fly airplanes to
suppress fires in Texas and around the country.
Be careful out there. It's fire season. It's
getting more and more dangerous to fly these
planes. But I appreciate you doing that. And
I hope you have a safe fire suppression season
this year. But thank you so much for being on
the show. I appreciate it. Well, Ed, thank you
for inviting me. And I wish you the best of luck
in this endeavor. I think it's going to be a
great success for you. For us, too. I mean, this
is important to get this information out. Fantastic,
Cokie. Thanks. I'd love to have you on on another
episode in the future. I look forward to it.
Maybe we can talk about wolves. That sounds perfect.
All right, my friend. All right, that'll do it
for this episode of Nature's Secret Service.
I want to thank Corky Roberts, our guest, for
telling us that fantastic story and joining us
today. Always a pleasure. We'll see you next
time. Nature's Secret Service is written and
produced by me, Ed Newcomer, and is co -produced
by the DHTV team here at California State University
Dominguez Hills. Follow us on social media and
connect with us online at naturessecretservice
.com.