If you want to learn more about the topics of
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Okay, people listen up, here we go. My name is
Ed Newcomer. I'm the host of Nature's Secret
Service, the podcast that puts you in the room
with the men and women of wildlife law enforcement.
Our guest today is Sean Carnes coming to us all
the way from his home in get this Lusaka, Zambia.
So Sean, thank you so much for joining us. It's
so great to have you here. And thank goodness
we live in the era we do and we can just Talk
to you in real time from Zambia This is very
cool and thank you so much for this opportunity
I'm looking forward to this and should be a good
time me too. This is going to be a good story
and for a lot of reasons Hey, let me just give
you give you a little bit of background about
who you are And then if I forget anything you
can add to it But for our listeners, you know,
I want people to know, you know Sean is a former
wildlife officer with the state of Tennessee
so Up to now, our guests have been federal agents
from the U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service, but
Sean was a state wildlife officer, so like a
state game warden. For many, many years, he worked
on a lot of undercover cases. He has a very good
reputation as an undercover officer, working
with the feds, working on state cases, federal
cases, the whole deal. Sean and his wife Stephanie
are also founding directors of the Wildlife Investigators
Training Alliance, WIDA. which provides training
to wildlife officers around the world. Sean,
so great to have you. I know it's in the evening
there in Zambia, but did I leave anything out
about your background? No, that's that's that's
plenty. You know, I've just been so fortunate
to work with so many dedicated agents and investigators
and officers over the years. I just hope that
this this segment can do justice by all their
hard work as well. Oh, I guarantee you, Will.
This is fascinating because this is something
we're going to come back to during this series
of Nature's Secret Service, and that is this
issue of caviar trafficking. And I'm sure all
of our listeners know and understand that caviar,
in its most basic sense, are fish eggs. And at
the high end, they can be a delicacy, and they're
very sought after, particularly in certain ethnic
communities. But we all know of, you know, the
classic James Bond and his tuxedo enjoying some
beluga caviar somewhere. Beluga caviar as a particular
type of fish comes from sturgeon, a type of sturgeon
called the beluga. It's only found in the Caspian
and Black Seas and it's been under a lot of pressure
for many years. It's an endangered animal. So
I'm just gonna give a little bit of background
Sean us Lead you into your story and then we're
just gonna jump right in because Sean you have
amazing experience working on caviar trafficking
cases So basically what we're talking about by
the let's say into the mid 1990s The cat the
really popular sought -after caviar's were coming
out of Eastern Europe. And those fish stocks
started to be depleted dramatically. So supplies
were getting short. The beluga sturgeon is a
fish that can live I don't know, hundreds of
years, I think more than over 100 years. I'm
sure they mature dinosaur. Yeah, they're like
they look like a dinosaur to they they're big,
they can get to be you know, five, six, seven
feet long. And they, they live a long time and
they mature late in life. So the females aren't
you know, producing eggs, you know, in mass until
they're pretty old. Anyway, so the fish stock
starts to be depleted by the mid 1990s, so it's
becoming more and more rare. It becomes listed
by CITES and protected under the Convention on
International Trade of Endangered Species, and
eventually is listed by the US Fish and Wildlife
Service as endangered under the Endangered Species
Act in the US. All of that starts to make legal
Requirements that make it hard to trade in caviar
and this causes the people who are profiting
from caviar to look for alternative sources and
this is how a Wildlife officer from the state
of Tennessee gets connected with caviar. So now
I want to jump to where you start to get involved
Sean and Basically that your involvement starts
with being around a fish called the paddle fish,
right? Yep. So tell it tell me what number one,
what is a paddle fish? And where are they found?
Native, they're native to the US. But where are
they found? And what is it? Certainly, they're
pretty much contained within the drainage of
the Mississippi River system. So they'll find
them as far west as Glendive, Montana, and as
far east as in they actually made it into the
rivers of Pennsylvania. So, you know, if you
think of everything or look at a map of the United
States and you see that massive drainage of the
Mississippi River, that's primarily where paddlefish
occur is throughout that drainage. Also, I must
say, though, there are species of sturgeon as
well that occur there. Some of those sturgeon
were already federally endangered or listed as
threatened with no harvest. They were primarily
contained, the sturgeon that we would encounter
or American sturgeon were contained in the Mississippi
as well as up the Ohio River. So the real interesting
thing about this with regards to paddlefish Yes,
sought after species. And before, I guess probably
it's in the 80s. There began to be an industry
for the American paddlefish. And it started in
the state of Tennessee. So the paddlefish, number
one, it looks it's a very unique looking fish,
right? Describe what a paddlefish looks like.
Sure. You know, a large flat bill that's long
and they're a filter feeder. So they have the
ability to go along, open up this large mouth
and move around and utilize their rostrum where
their big spatula looking nose as like a sensor.
And, you know, they as well don't have bones
like sturgeon. So they're cartilaginous and they're
another prehistoric dweller. And they can get
quite massive. I mean, over well over 100 pounds,
but you know, not so much in recent years due
to due to overfishing. Interesting. You know,
the you mentioned American sturgeon. We when
we talk about caviar, people often associate
it with those Eastern European fish that the
beluga sturgeon, the setter sturgeon. Yeah. Sevruga,
but there are a lot of sturgeon in the US actually
in the absolutely in the on the west coast. Of
course, there are sturgeon in the Columbia River.
And even in California in the Sacramento River,
there are sturgeon located there. So they're
not, you know, it's not a non native fish, necessarily.
Those are different species, of course. But so
what what historically, what was the what was
the fishery for paddlefish? Was it for meat or
eggs? Or what was the you know, prior to what
we're going to talk about today, historically,
what is the managed fishery for paddlefish? Why
would people fish for them? So throughout numerous
southeastern states, where paddlefish occurred,
there was a limited fishery for the meat. But
a lot of times they were just seen, I hate this
term, but as a junk or a trash fish. It was a
a non -regulated species occurring with not much
interest other than local consumption and some
shipment of meat after it would go to a fish
house and then subsequently to a fishmonger.
But there was just not a huge demand. This dealer
in Tennessee had the occasion to meet some folks
from uh, New York that were originally from,
uh, former Soviet block countries that he began
to do business with them. Um, and this is before.
Yeah. When was this? So let me back up a little
bit. Okay. So let me back up a little bit. So
traditionally though, it would have been local
people who are just interested in fishing forum,
uh, not much of a necessarily commercial market,
but just. Right. Okay. Enough. Right, it wasn't
it wasn't causing a problem for the population
of the fish, as you mentioned, they were unregulated,
they were considered common. So but that starts
to change, right? At some point, that starts
to change and more and more pressure start to
put on these fish. So how did it come to your
attention that there could be a problem or an
issue with paddlefish? What happened? You know,
the craziest thing, I started this work in 1994.
And in the state of Mississippi. The state of
Mississippi had no legal harvest of paddlefish
whatsoever. It was totally closed in protected
waters. At that point in the investigations unit
in Mississippi, we began to have some complaints
that there were people from Tennessee, buyers,
that were dealing with people because the demand
was increasing so much that they would go risk
their necks and solicit these folks in an entirely
closed state to catch paddlefish. They taught
them how to process the row because it's a very
timely process, has to be done very soon. And
ultimately, there were a group of people in Mississippi
who I had the occasion to begin to interact with.
um, on an undercover basis and learn that, Hey,
those folks from Tennessee are coming down here.
Those buyers, they're driving the prices. Uh,
there's a hell of a demand and we're willing
to take the risk. Um, the dealers have ways to
cover it. And it was also fascinating to learn.
So I began to look into it and right about this
time I had the opportunity to, um, to relocate.
to Tennessee, which being from the Northeastern
US originally, I'm fond of Hills. And so it was
a great opportunity and I had been working in
conjunction with Joint Operations with Tennessee,
but I made the move to Tennessee. So you were
part of the plan with that. You were a Mississippi
officer before. Yeah. Okay, I didn't know. If
I knew that, I forgot. I apologize. So you started
with the state of Mississippi. Okay. All right.
So you make your water though, like Pennsylvania
and Mississippi. So a wonderful learning experience.
That would be a big, big change. Okay, so you
now you make your move over to Tennessee. You're
already aware that some people from Tennessee
are coming into Mississippi specifically for
illegally sourced paddlefish. Who are these people
that are coming over by the way? You know they
were they were dealers that were set up in the
state of Tennessee and people would come from
all over wherever paddlefish occurred and we
later learned sturgeon as well. They come to
these fish dealers or these fish dealers would
go out and solicit, they'd show just like what
happened in Mississippi by really developing
the market, encouraging the fishery because these
folks based on contacts in New York had learned
that, hey, there's a demand for these eggs because
they look so close to the Russian stuff. Interesting.
And they could make uh a substantial profit over
what they would make in the normal commercial
fishing activities you know for catfish or something
like that that they would and these are gill
netters uh mostly okay and um interestingly with
um with that the state of Tennessee had a legal
fishery with the prescribed season uh limits
but they always um from the time they started
it that fishery, they had a reporting requirement.
So as soon as I got the Tennessee, I began to
pull those records and look at them. And I saw
so many disparities in a paper trail investigation.
You know, they can be intriguing, but they can
be mind boggling as well. So starting to compare
reported harvest with reported acquisition from
the dealers. Begin to see just these huge fluctuations
Determined that yeah, this is not accurate. So
the next step was let's see who people are contacting
So as gathering intelligence You know going back
to the basis of everything we and I'm including
you in this we had I mean everything we do we
want to have as much intelligence as possible
We want to know as much about the people as we
possibly can right? So what do you know? Would
you find out who who were these people that were
driving the trade? You know, we identified the
dealers through who had just from that the paperwork,
and we began to with these discrepancies, we
had met the threshold to subpoena phone records.
Okay, so in this is the time when it would arrive
five inches deep paper that stuff with the holes
along the edges that you know, would fold over
itself, you get a stack of that from the phone
company. So you're going through these things
manually. So I spent about four months doing
that and realized that during the legal season,
there are people that would be contacting the
dealers. But during the illegal season, the fish
aren't gravid, don't have eggs year round, but
they're still viable early before the season
and sometimes after depending upon weather and
water and things like that. So ultimately began
to see a number of contacts taking place after
the season. And thought, well, this is bizarre.
So we continue to get complaints from fisheries
biologists. And this is vital in wildlife law
enforcement that we have to oftentimes rely on
biological data. and biologists as well to get
their cake. They're the professionals when it
comes to the species management. I'm a cop. And
so they began to notice though through surveys
of fish sampling and things that they would do
and pursue it to their research that numbers
were down. They didn't feel as if, or they felt
as if there was a lot of undue pressure. And
what was so interesting, because the biologist
at that time, the commercial fisheries biologist,
had to have a conversation regularly with these
dealers. Well, they began to rat to him about
other dealers. Okay, so the dealers are telling
the biologist that there's nefarious activities
taking place, right? Yes, so let's and it's not
us, you know, yeah, right exactly So let's jump
ahead a little bit so that you know now you're
on to something Are these these people though
that are driving the trade? They're They're not
from Tennessee, right? I mean who's you know,
who's interested who's ultimately interested
in these eggs, right? This is what was so fascinating
about looking at the phone records was you'd
see fishermen whether in legal season or closed
season, their conversations with these dealers.
And then you'd see the dealers in Tennessee who
were called wholesale fish dealers at the time.
They, in turn, were having numerous conversations
with multiple companies in New York. There were
some in Chicago, some in California, as well
as Florida. So we started looking at those companies
and realizing that of course there's no domestic
market for these things in Tennessee to speak
up. Everything is going into interstate commerce.
And with that began to realize when we looked
into these dealers in New York and elsewhere,
that a lot of these have strong connections,
strong ties to former Soviet Union countries.
And, you know, New York was and is the hub of
it with large concentrations of, of Russians,
Ukrainians, you know, all living together in,
in Brighton Beach and then around these high
impact areas. Right. But so, so you've uncovered
now the commercial driver and it and As our listeners
will know from talking to other guests, it's
commercialization of wildlife that can often
drive it to being coming threatened or becoming
extinct. So now you've discovered this commercial
aspect to it. You know you now have Russians
involved. Presumably, they're trying to find
replacements for the diminishing supply of beluga,
et cetera, sevruga, all the sturgeons out of
Eastern Europe. So. Yeah. And now you've got
Lacey Act potential charges because you've got
state violations followed by interstate commerce.
So you now have a federal felony to be involved
in. So now you've got to deal with these Russians.
In order to protect paddlefish in the US, you
got to deal with these Russians. What's the plan?
What are you going to do? This is when the more
the interesting work takes place during the operation.
So in 1998, we joined forces with Fish and Wildlife
Service and created a storefront operation, Bonafide
Business. And that business was an import -export
company. Wow. Now, I have to share with you at
the beginning of this, when you're brainstorming
with your supervisor and your team and everybody,
What can be our approach? Why are they going
to sell to us? And all the fishermen at that
time knew that the dealers would take it and
sell it in New York for a substantial profit.
We know that some Russians had circulated around
through the area from some reports. So we're
having this brainstorming session and I said,
what the hell? I'll be Alexander Ivanov. I'll
pose as a Russian to the Americans. And I had
a boss at the time. He was one of those that
would be like, that's never going to work. That's
never going to work. You know, and I'm like,
God damn it. Don't tell me that. We're going
to make it. You know, we're going to give it
our all. Right. So anyways, yeah, we started
Eurasian Trading Associates. Okay, I got to stop
you here because. Number one, you launch right
off into an undercover business, which is probably
one of the most difficult labor intensive ways
to do an undercover case because you're running
a business. It's an undercover business, but
you still have to be responsible for all the
money that comes in and goes out. You're running
a storefront to the public, to anybody who's
driving around or coming into the store. It looks
like a totally legit business, right? Yeah, absolutely.
It's not easy. It's not easy. The amount of work,
the first year, I didn't take a day off. I was
at the storefront or on the road trying to buy
every day. And during the creation of this thing,
we wanted to be believable. We wanted the people
from the southeast to to ultimately get word
about us, come to us and come in and in their
minds interact with a bona fide Russian that's
going to be buying my caviar. So we had to have
the whole place locked. A funny story. I had
like a whiteboard behind me with fake orders
and everything written in Cyrillic and had all
sorts of notes in Cyrillic. And one of the questions
we asked was what if the real Russians show up
and we're like. We'll deal with that when it
gets here. Let's get these guys because they're
doing the damage. And if anybody understands,
in Fish and Wildlife, we're not like the FBI.
We're not like the DEA or any of the other alphabet
agencies that have these huge budgets and have
an incredible support team. It's going to be
a handful of us tops, and that's on a good day.
So with that, we decided that we were going to
launched this business and send out a flyer that,
hey, we're a licensed buyer and we're here. We
were relying on, when we did that, a lot of the
intelligence from the biologist indicated dealers
snitching on dealers. And it's very cutthroat
with the fluctuating markets. We thought, well,
there's not much loyalty in this. So people are
always looking to get more. Naturally, in any
commercial entity, those that are the initial
taker, I feel strongly that, you know, they always
feel like they could be making more. They're
putting their neck on the line, they could be
making more. So that's who we want to appeal
to. And then some of the fishermen, and then
some of the dealers, and let's just see what
happens. Right. So you're initially targeting
the people who are doing the illegal fishing,
and they're bringing it to your business to sell.
So you've got You've got them on commercialization,
presumably bringing Mississippi fish over into
Tennessee for your federal charges. Let me ask
you this. That's a big risk to take to portray
a Russian, write things on a board in Cyrillic,
and kind of with the idea of, hey, we'll just
wing it if the Russians show up. Let me, you
know, most... You're a very experienced undercover
officer. So I was a kid and not the smartest
thing ever well, but but nonetheless you're very
good and You know, you know that one of the things
you have to do when you set up an undercover
persona is There has to be some element of truth
to it. So how what was your plan? How are you
gonna portray a Russian? Do you have? Russian
background or how are you gonna play this? I
mean one thing that helps is you are not A Tennessee
Mississippi boy, right? You don't hear it in
your voice. And so right, you know right away
at least with the locals Obviously you're not
from there. So that's a good start. But how are
you gonna play off being a Russian? I went to
the bookstore and and they had a tape on the
clearance bin and In the clearance bin was a
tape called just enough Russian so I get this
tape and it's a a man and a woman engaging in
Russian dialogue with common phrases. And I came
back with, I'm going to talk like that guy. That's
what I'm going to sound like when he speaks English.
I'm going to sound like him. So I did my damnedest
to mimic that person's English speaking from
the just enough Russian tape. And I mean, and
this is part of the obsessive stuff with UC to
be successful. I listened to probably hundreds
of hours of it. constantly. I would go home to
or go to a hotel or whatever, I would put that
in and just listen to it and repeat phrases.
I thought, yeah, you know, this, this, this got
to work. And, you know, bought some silky shiny
pants and running suits and pointy toe shoes
and the typical gangster crap and like, yeah,
that's what I wear. Fortunately, had a very convincing
undercover vehicle that was, you know, not of
American origin or anything at all like that.
And it does let's be convincing. It does help
if you're going to portray a Russian to wear
a tracksuit, at least at that time. Especially,
especially the ones in the ones involved in crime
that seemed to be their preferred outfit was
the matching tracksuit with maybe some remind
me. Do you have any gold chains to go with it?
Yeah, you know, we'll come back to it if there's
time. There's a good tracksuit story that is
tied into it from a trip with the Russians. But,
you know, we wanted to get these, the takers
and the dealers. We thought if we can get to
them, put them over a barrel, hopefully that's
going to give us enough to tie into the Russians.
We weren't sure if we would in fact, you know,
be able to deal with them new face. And we knew
of course, we're not going to deal with them
as Russians that just obviously wouldn't wouldn't
fly. Yeah. So during the storefront, we began
to garner through undercover contacts. On this
this operation, I think we had maybe 1800 plus
recordings. So, um, and these were all, you know,
phone calls, uh, no texting at the time, but,
um, begin to go out and meet the fishermen. and
began to have a better understanding of the organizational
structure of who kind of controls a specific
area. Because we found that there were kind of
like these suppliers who they directed fishermen
to go. They would come up with the way to cover
closed season. Perhaps if the state of Kentucky
was open, they would buy a license in Kentucky
and say, these are Kentucky eggs. And we began
to as this was developing, and we're buying caviar.
So I had to develop a taste and act like I knew
what I was doing with this. Right. You know,
Ed, I don't eat chicken eggs, let alone a damn
fish egg. How am I going to do this without gag
reflex kicking in? And, and be convincing and,
you know, say something back with an accent that
Oh, God, this is the best I've ever had. And,
you know, make them love you. That's that was
that was some of the hardest part putting the
shit in my mouth. They're telling him how good
it is. So it was as as an evil. I get it. Yeah.
And they began to tell us, though, about what
their other dealers had coached them to do. And
this is where we're getting into knowledge and
establishing their culpability and seeing that
a lot of the the trafficking that was happening
was, in fact, directed by these Tennessee and
other southeastern level dealers. They would
coach them, get that out of state license. And
one day with one of them, something really interesting
happened. There was an individual we ended up
buying thousands of pounds from, and he would
collect it from various people, but he got so
comfortable with me, he'd have them over to meet
the Russian. Here, I could talk to them in my
pseudo accent and say, oh, you make very good
egg. Is this, you know, yours? Yep, caught it
yesterday. And I'm going, yes, I know, because
surveillance had you on the river in Tennessee
clothes. So things were coming together. Keeping
track of it was the hard part. And one day I
went to this specific dealer and we went in and
he had the caviar processed. And he said, I have
something special to show you. And he opens up
the container. And the caviar was distinctly
different. It was a much lighter color and much
larger eggs. And I said to him, oh, this is beautiful.
This is what I'd love. Now, this is endangered.
It was a sturgeon out of the Mississippi River.
Whoa, nice. And I'm like. Oh, did your other
dealer coached you or told you well how to separate
the eggs? He goes, oh yeah, he made sure of that.
And he always paid us more. So those recordings
play well against the dealer. Those recordings,
of course, play well against the defendant. And
so we found that they would open up and want
to tell the Russians how clever they were. They're
almost bragging about their skill at being illegal,
right? Yeah, totally. And none of that was very
instant. That was the first year and a half.
We use the phrase, when we do our training, they
had to progress their way to the dance with the
bad guy. So it's just a matter of... buying legal,
not asking too many questions and gaining their
trust. Right. And it got to the point that we
had so much, so much in. And we realize, you
know, we're buying, we have to sell. And, and
as the government at that time, so the storefront
ran from 98 to 2000, almost 2002. Okay. So four
years. Wow. But as the government it's incumbent
upon us to put public safety first. Right. So
anything that we would buy we would send to the
forensic lab to identify species to make sure
because sometimes you're looking at all these
eggs. But also we were having random lots tested
for contaminants. Right. throughout the drainage
and you know we don't want to be responsible
for this so we exercise as government due diligence
as much as we possibly can. We had this caviar
and we were beginning to the funds were running
low and I'm sitting in the storefront one day
and one of the the informal ways Russians would
answer the phone would be alo. like I'm like
hello and so I'm like I can do that because the
guy on the tape told me I can talk that way and
so I answer the phone at the store and I say
hello and the guy on the other end of the line
says hello oh shoot and I'm like all I can think
of it was hold yeah oh that's a no shit moment
look about the Russians have reached out to you
now what But I didn't feel like anybody was going
to show up because here we are nestled, you know,
kind of in a town in the Tennessee Georgia line,
not endorsing the band, but that's where we were
at. I guess we were the first ones. And so anyways,
this guy on the other line, I'm like, oh my God.
All right. Deep breaths, deep breaths, deep breaths.
Came on with my regular voice and I said, hello,
this is John, can I help you? And the guy asked
who was that? And I said, oh, that's Ivanov.
He had to go to the other room and get something.
The guy's like, okay. He begins to talk to me.
This Russian from New York. Can you send me a
sample? Absolutely. We'll send you a sample.
You'd FedEx it overnight. The guy, they tasted
our sample, looked at it and said, okay, we want
like 100 pounds. And at the time, maybe $55 a
pound, a hundred pounds. So yeah, we can get
it to you. We began to just move the row and
have conversations with the Russians. And we
were reliable and because of the people we were
getting it from, I think we had probably some
of the best stuff out there. We wanted the other...
Yeah, go ahead. Let me there's a couple things
I want to just talk about here, because it's
important for you and I, I know exactly what
you're talking about, but listeners might not.
So one of the terms you're using is row and just
so people know that's fish eggs, row is fish
eggs, also caviar. But you know, so we're running
an undercover business. A lot of times, undercover
businesses are just set up to buy contraband.
But if you're going to run one for a long time,
and if this one went for four years, you also
sometimes have to sell. And I've done that too,
where I've run an undercover business where I'm
buying and selling, or I'm just selling, but
sometimes selling is important. But I've never
run a business where I had a consumable item,
right? And your point is very well taken. You're
selling fish caviar. And so buying it is one
thing. If you're buying contraband making your
You're building your cases against these local
people who are illegally fishing and then the
brokers who are bringing it to you. You don't
have to worry about public safety because you're
just buying. But when you turn around and start
to sell a consumable, that is a kudos to you,
number one, for thinking about it. But of course,
because you're the government, you have to take
those. You're held to an even higher standard.
you have to make sure that you know, your processing
facilities are clean, you meet all the right
state standards, all the federal standards for
producing a food product and packaging it. Because
God forbid, there's some Listeria breakout that
is linked to yes, an undercover business, right?
Crazy, crazy. Exactly. So yeah, needles all the
time. Totally, totally pins and needles. But
at the same time, you got to do it in order to
look legit. At some point, right got to be selling
and Once those Russians reach out to you, you
got to get into those Russians because now you
know, you've got probably organized criminal
activity involving these state protected animals
Right. So this is a huge break when this Russian
calls you it's also no shit moment because now
yeah now you need to make a pivot on your undercover
because You are pretending to be a Russian dude,
but you don't speak Russian Right, right So I
want to ask you, I think I know how I would play
this off once I realized, oh crap, we're going
to have to deal with Russians. But I want to
know what did you decide to do? You had to have
made a decision at that moment. OK, we're going
to engage with Russians now. How am I going to
explain that I'm a Russian dude with a Russian
accent that doesn't speak Russian? How do you
explain it? So I became John. Oh, you did. You
pivoted to a whole new character. Yes, and this
is character number two. There is one more that'll
show up at the end. That's what's Like we said,
we're not the big alphabet agencies. We don't
have all these men power to bring these people
in so I love this This is not what I would have
done because I wouldn't have thought of it, but
this is brilliant. Okay So yeah, one is John
is head of regional sales for the company and
I'm glad to help you and it just snowballed from
there, John became the point of contact with
the Russians. So this is almost like this is
almost like a 70s sitcom where you're, you know,
you know, inevitably, the scene has to happen
where what was the you're rushing the undercover
name, Evgeny? Was it Alexander Ivanov? Okay,
so at some point, you know, John and Alexander
are supposed to be at the same dinner party.
And you're running in and out changing your outfit.
Anyway, so, so with the Russians, you transition
to this new undercover persona, John. And so
how does this play out? What happens now you're
going to develop cases against Russians in New
York, anywhere else? Where else were the Russians?
You know, they directed and led a lot of that.
That was the beautiful part. And that's what
ultimately led me to meet Ed Newcomer. And, you
know, it's out in LA. But what was so fascinating,
by day that we choked about it, by day, I'd be
Alex, I'd be buying caviar from the Americans.
And then I transitioned to John to deal with
the Russians. Crazy. We started selling serious
amounts. And with that, but we're like, okay,
we want to get knowledge that culpability of
these guys, do they know what they're doing is
illegal? We need to open that door up somehow.
Right. So after, um, I don't know, sending several
hundred pounds, um, to both New York and then
ultimately to Los Angeles at the direction of
New York. I see. Okay. And they also had us,
the New York contact, had us shipping it to three
or four other Russians in New York. And what
they would request is just send it directly to
them. But on the airway bill from FedEx, don't
put that it was from you. Just put that it was
from us. And we want to be sure. I'm thinking,
oh, that's great. we're going to have to interact
with these other people if we're ever going to
figure out, you know, more about them. Right.
So while packing up cab chip to them, I'd always
drop a handful of business cards in the box.
Nice. And and then ultimately they started contacting
us independently to get it. And everybody was
behind everybody's back. And that during the
conversation. with the directing one out of New
York, I asked him, because we had the interest,
of course, in the Russian stuff, what is happening
with this? And you'd hear about instances at
JFK or LA where couriers would have it in their
suitcases and be apprehended at the port and
thinking, how's it all coming in this way? So
I said to him, hey, man, you're Russian. Do you
get access to the Russian stuff? You could have
heard a pin drop. Really? And he begins to tell
me, um, first of all, yes, we get it. We have
all the connections and I'm like, at this time
I'm, I'm like losing it. You know, I'm like,
yes, awesome. This is we're going. He begins
to tell me about how, um, they have access to
a lot of it. And as a matter of fact, during
that phone call, he said, we just had two point.
something tons of Kaluga, Chinese sturgeon, very
similar to Beluga, had a level of protection.
So we just had two tons of it come in. And in
my experience, in my experience, Kaluga was often
code for Beluga. It actually wasn't Kaluga, it
was actually Beluga. And you know, another thing
I wanted to point out is I'll try to put some
photos of what caviar looks like on the Nature's
Secret Service webpage so people can go look.
But a lot of these dealers claim they can eyeball
the difference that they're looking at. Oh, that's
beluga versus it's very difficult. Yes, sometimes
the eggs are a little bit bigger than other species.
But in my experience, it's very difficult to
eyeball. So as you were doing in this case, law
enforcement often sends these to specialized
labs that can do DNA testing and tell you exactly
what animal it came from. And in my experience,
Kaluga was often actually beluga out of the Caspian
Sea, or Black Sea. Yeah, and that was one thing
we discussed, is he just, you know, he doesn't
know me enough, is he seeing this beluga thing?
And frankly, at the time, I didn't know what
a Kaluga was. I had not even heard it. So immediately,
my one of my first kudos out to Fish and Wildlife
Service agents, Gary Phillips was our case agent.
Okay. And Gary was about seven hours away from
the store front location. And he was making trips
every week anytime I need to cover Gary was there.
One of the most solid human beings I've ever
put my you know, my trust in to truly have my
back. Gary's an incredible guy. And Um, so Gary,
I call him after contact. So we sometimes we'd
be talking at midnight, you know, of course.
Right. And he said, let me get in the fish and
wildlife service system and see how many, if
there's any declarations or any import permits
for gluga. And after talk to this guy found out
that there was only like 1 .7 kilos permitted
to come in. And it was probably for some laboratory
situation. Probably. Yep. So we thought, well,
this is awfully, awfully screwy, but this is.
you know, let's open up the door. And I asked
the guy about it casually a few days later, he's
like, man, that's gone. And I'm like, okay, so
they had heard about us. Some of their friends,
they weren't buying caviar from them in New York
anymore. They were coming straight to us from
the business card fiasco. Right, right. So they
said, we need to have a meeting. And I said,
okay, I need a What kind of meeting you want
to have? Let's do it in New York. And we want
to talk about basically securing long -term business,
all this sort of thing. Fantastic. And I needed
a partner who was going to be savvy, who had
experience. And thus, my mentor for undercover
work, Dave Cartwright, rest his soul. He just
passed away this past year. Dave Cartwright was
a service agent at the end of his career. Matter
of fact, for this, he became an annuitant and
got to stay on longer to help. So I learned so
much. This guy had so much incredible technique
with any group. And so Dave, could you, I need
you to be like a business partner with the company,
a financial back or something. And he's like,
count me in. And enthusiastically, I might add,
just because that's the nature of Gabe Cartwright.
A perfect situation, too. You've got a Fed and
a state officer working together. So you're going
to have state laws and federal laws covered in
terms of experience and expertise. Yeah, absolutely.
I've, you know, throughout my career, I've had
amazing experiences working with service agents
on joint cases, whether it's, you know, outfit
or undercover cases in the western US or duck
hunting cases or, you know, waterfowl cases kind
of thing. But for the most part, I've truly enjoyed
working with service agents. And there's always
a few exceptions. Yeah, there's a few exceptions.
That'll be a different episode. We'll talk about
that. Yeah. Well, I noticed I'm not on their
Christmas card list either, but that's okay.
Yeah, that's okay. That's one of them. We all
know who those and you know what, more importantly,
those people know who they are too, right? Yeah,
absolutely. So okay, so you and Dave are going
to actually go up to New York and have meetings
with Russians. This is hardcore now. Yeah. Okay.
So tell us about that. What happens? Well, we
go to, um, and mind you, we had been sending
it their direction, like I said, to LA as well.
So we, we had an element there. Um, and it, at
this point in time, along with the four or five
others in New York, trying to get amounts to
them and trying to have conversations of them
to get them to understand that it's closed season
right now. You know, if you're willing to put
your neck on the line. Um, well, we'll send it,
but it can't, you've got to cover this kind of
thing. So this is going on extensively. And we
knew we were going to be meeting with two of
the Russians, a father and son team in Staten
Island. Okay. So, um, we flew in and to New York
and Cartwright, um, the, was, uh, you know, kind
of the financial backer and he was at the demographic
and agent and he looked sharp. We rent this big
ass boat of a Cadillac and we cruise on out to
Staten Island and you know just have very common
conversation with the guys. We're laying eyes
on them and they're like we're gonna go eat and
okay where we going? And said our friend of ours
has a restaurant in Queens and I'm like okay.
This sounds interesting and what's it called?
And he names the restaurant Troika. Mind you,
we had a cover team, Gary Phillips from the South
and a couple other folks. And we also had the
team of agents in New York City. Okay. Who, you
know, can't stress the importance of cover teams
enough. We do too many of these lone ranger things.
And it's it's not best practice. It was reckless.
And I was grateful to have this cover team and
especially the New York agents because they knew
the back roads, they knew what how to get around
in New York. Yeah, New York, New York, Los Angeles,
those are not easy places to run a cover team
that doesn't get noticed, right? Yeah. Yeah,
exactly. And so when we couldn't convey to them,
we had a body wire transmitting to the cover
team. And of course, that time, very limited
duration of power. We didn't know how long or
what we didn't know any particulars. But fortunately,
our case agent, Gary Phillips says, you know,
let's let's let's go with it. I trust them. They
can decide. So we go out the Russians from Staten
Island get in the car with us and We pull in
front of a place in this restaurant says troika
over the door ironically a different there's
another troika, but Like oh, okay. This seems
pretty cool Guys who were we meeting? What's
the story? You know, like well his name is John
and We're just gonna have lunch with them talk
to him a little bit. We just want to show him
you guys are cool And, um, and we want to talk
to you guys about cornering the business, but
more than anything, we're just looking for Yon's
approval. Okay. All right. So now, I mean, you
know, you're thinking this shit's amping up a
little bit. Yeah. This is pretty bizarre. Yeah.
You're moving up the chain at seniority. Yeah.
Okay. We walk into the doors of this beautiful
place. And as we walk into the doors, sure as
shit, there's two guys standing there with the
fricking nylon sweatsuits on in the lobby. And
I look at Dave Cartwright, you'll hear what I'm
referring to him as. This guy had the ability
as an officer, or as an undercover officer, to
when things would get tense, he could keep it
chill. Or he could deescalate in such a natural
way. Or he could make you laugh when you needed
it. Important skill. So we walk in, we see these
guys and they're like, we're going downstairs.
So we start to proceed down a marble staircase
that continued to whine underground. It's in
the basement with these brass railings. And I'm
realizing at the time that our transmitter is
not going to transmit out of here. We're surrounded
by cement and steel. But let's let's go. We're
going down the steps. And it's a very eerie feeling.
Anybody who ever says they don't get nervous
for an undercover role or contacts doesn't need
to be doing it. Exactly. You need to be nervous.
Yeah. And I'm, you know, I'm, I'm nervous. I
don't know what to expect. What's going on. We've
done thousands of dollars of business with these
guys. They've indicated the smuggling coming
in and What else are they into? And as we're
going down the stairs, you hear, coming from
the room, a Britney Spears song. What the hell
is this? Well, it's getting even weirder at this
point. And Cartwright's beside me and he looks
over and he says, I've always wanted to go out
like this. And I'm like, I just wanted to give
him a big hug. You kind of read your thoughts,
right? You guys are both like, Oh my gosh, is
this the last time I'm going to talk to anybody?
Exactly. But you know, it just gave me a moment
of just, yeah, breathe easy. You know, we're
doing this for a reason and try to have we got
to try to have fun with it, too. Yeah. And it's
probably okay. It's probably going to be okay.
Yeah. Probably okay. And we get down there and
there's a big Russian guy that we meet sitting
at the table and we're the guest of the other
two. So it's ultimately at the table. It's this
big guy named Jan. It's our two Russians from
New York and Dave and myself. And they begin
to just bring vodka like it's water and then
food and everything's brass and mirrors. where
the Britney Spears thing come from. That comes
from on the stage where a bunch of what we believe
to be underage women of former Soviet countries
that were probably smuggled in. They're working
and being trafficked as part of something here.
So that raises your hackles again. Things just
aren't right. So ultimately we sit down and we're
having just general conversation with Jan and
they pretty quickly after after a few shots of
vodka they pretty quickly come around to look
here's the thing we know you're selling to these
other guys in New York and they're like hey you
know yeah we are but they reached out to us so
we've got to make business and you know and You
could die tomorrow and we're not gonna be able
to we need somebody else to deal with, you know,
it's it's just part of our business plan And
as we're trying to smooth it over We're pushing
back pretty hard, okay, and They were like at
one point we will tell you who to sell it to
And it's gonna be to us. Okay, and the instant
reaction With that is no bullshit. You're you're
not I mean you can try to but We're not going
to do it that way. Wow. And it's getting louder
and more escalated and unbeknownst to me and
unbeknownst to Cartwright coming up behind us
are the two goons in the damn sweatsuits again.
Oh, shit. And all we could think about was turn
around, look at them and, you know, what the
hell moment. What is this shit all about? We're
talking business and you got, you know, Igor
and Gunzo here over my shoulder. What? This is
bullshit. We'll just leave. And Ultimately, Jan,
the big guy at the end of the table, puts his
hand up, motions in them back and speaks Russian
to them. And they came back and they come across
to us and said, okay, you guys are all right.
Just make sure we get the most of it. You stood
your ground. You can do business with us. And
there's gonna be a lot more business coming.
Mind you, as I said, the cover team outside,
they're not getting any transmission. Right.
Oh yeah. You're down, you're down in a basement.
That's not going to transmit. Nope. Yeah. And
we were down there for, for seem like days, but
it was, it was a few hours. And while that's
going on the cover teams out on the street and
there's other sweatsuit goons walking up and
looking in the windows on the street of the vehicles.
Oh boy. For anything out of sorts. Of course,
uh, Dave and I weren't aware of this. You couldn't
get a cell phone signal. I couldn't get anything.
Um, back once again to ultimately, uh, Gary Phillips
case agent was in control. He said, no, let's,
let's let him go. Um, and I appreciate the faith
and confidence he had in us. Um, and because
you can imagine what was going through his mind.
We lost this, we have this going on, uh, guys
walking up and down the street and. very, very
bizarre. Yeah, so so they're doing counter surveillance
looking for they're looking for law enforcement.
Yeah, this is a super this is a super dangerous
situation because this has all the earmarks of
organized crime, right? Yes. And and with that,
that's always you know, that's in our mind more
and more is And especially during that lunch,
I feel like we got over this hurdle when they're
like, Okay, but you guys are going to sell mostly
to us. Right after that, they motion a guy comes
out with a tray full of large blue tits, like,
right? What's up? What's going on, guys? And
they said, This is all Russian stuff. Beluga.
And we're like, Oh, awesome. Man, you guys are
rock stars. How are you able to get it in? And
That's nothing we could have ever, of course,
asked them at the beginning. Right. But how are
you? How do you guys do this? They go, we have
four years, we place orders, we have a steady
source of them coming in. So we're like, wow,
that this is a big win to us, because we're like,
here comes, you know, this stuff into the country.
And they're like, man, we can really get anything
you guys want. By this time. By this time, Beluga
is completely prohibited under CITES rules and,
and certainly coming under ESA, although not
quite yet. But CITES had shut down the trade
on Beluga. Yeah. Yeah, the best I remember. And
yeah, the only thing that was allowed was there
was a personal baggage, baggage exception, which
allowed you to think bring in like 250 grams
or something like that. Small amount, basically,
yeah, two tins per person. So there's a whole
other topic of how they couriered stuff in using
the exceptions. But yeah, OK. Yeah, exactly.
And we're like, well, you know, if you guys are
buying all of our stuff, what's the need for
this? And they're like, the true Russians want
this. They pay yearly for this. And we're like,
well, what is the demand for all the paddlefish?
Well, you know, because like we told them, you
know, like, hey, we know some folks who could
this could probably be sold as Russian. Yeah.
And they're like, that's what we do. And we're
like, oh, you do? Where do you make it? Or how
do you do this? They're like, we do it in our
basement. Yep. And they're like, we take what
we buy from you. It goes into our tins and and
we sell it all over to the Russian population
and connoisseurs of the stuff. They think it's
Russian. And I'm like. But Beluga is substantially
larger. Well, what do you guys sell it as? And
they're like, we sell it as Savruga. Savruga.
So, you know, a little bit smaller. Yeah. And
it was still the Russian product looked very
similar to it. And so we're feeling very good
at this point in time, because that was one of
the the early bits of Intel that I neglected
to mention earlier. That was that we think it's
being sold as Russia, because, you know, the
Russian stuff as a prohibition, like what we'd
love to prove it. So we said to it and made a
simple request. Could you guys send us some of
the tents? We want to put them in the stores
like a display of caviar things. Like, absolutely.
And they sent us home with a bunch of their cans.
Nice. They say Sevruga, but you can then test
and find out it's actually a paddlefish row.
best thing was where it would say product of
Russia or product of Astrakhan or Astrakhan fisheries
and malasol Russian low salt everything written
in Cyrillic the picture of the sand or the salmon
listen to me of the sturgeon it's all coming
together nice and so as we begin to the relationship
continues. And we ended up meeting the New York,
the folks from New York, we ended up meeting
them in LA, where we first met Ed and back to
another, you know, amazing cover team. And the
legwork that you did on your side, giving us
the intel from, I think it was California Bureau
of Justice that we were going into a mob joint
where they used to watch people get the hell
kicked out of them in the back. Yeah, so Exactly.
We teamed up with a Russian speaking agent from
the California Department of Justice. And yeah,
just a side story. We will, I think we can, we
have about 10 minutes left. But I think we can,
we can finish up the story. I think in about
10 minutes. Oh, this is a good story. I'm trying
to think if we should break it into two. But
I, I think we can, I think we can finish up what
happened in about 10 minutes. Don't you think,
John? Okay, cool. I think so. Anyway, Yeah, there.
Yeah, there was a Russian area of there is a
Russian area of kind of West Hollywood. And yeah,
we found out that one of your target places here
in West Hollywood was known to like people were
getting beat up and thrown in the trunks of black
Cadillacs and in the middle of the night and
driven off. And nobody ever knew what happened
to those people. So yeah, this was not Yeah.
And in fact, I don't know if you were about to
tell this but Didn't these Russians at some point
in New York think about offing you? Well, we
discovered it with the recordings and the heated
argument As I was talking about when we were
insisting that we'll sell to who we want to sell
to and it's getting loud we had transcribers
and Translators from that were Department of
State certified and they would take the recordings
and translate the Russian. Okay. So during that
heated conversation in New York, the one that
ultimately the big guy, you know, suppressed
and said, Okay, everything's cool. We were playing
it back because we wanted to know what they were
talking about in negotiating. Yeah, right. Right
in front of you. But they're talking about right
in front of you, but in Russian. Okay. Exactly.
What did they say? So And one of the things,
of course, that came back in the translation
was maybe we should just kill these guys and
take the business. And this was about we got
the recordings back a few weeks later or the
transcriptions back a few weeks later. And I
remember Gary calling me, Phillips. He's like,
hey, I just want to share this with you. This
is the this is what they're hearing at this portion.
And you know of course my initial reaction I'm
like oh sons of bitches you know and frustrated
and like all right now now they're really gonna
get it yeah yeah at the same time I mean that
brings it home right right in front of you these
guys are talking about potentially killing you
yeah you know it is a bit of a side thing and
you can relate to this this is one of those situations
that people especially a lot of administrators
they don't understand what their officers are
being put through, what their agents are going
through and sadly a lot of times these are the
ones that are making policies and they won't
draw from the experience of those who were in
the trenches so to speak in doing it and not
until very recently has it become a normal thing
for Some UK law enforcement US law enforcement
to have their undercovers evaluated psychologically
from time to time, right? I wish that had been
available when I was on this thing is they probably
would have locked me up in the nervous hospital,
but You know, it's uh, you know, this goes also
to this thing I think a lot of officers and also
Supervisors people in higher in the chain of
command they they assume that these people are
not that dangerous because they're just dealing
in wildlife. Certainly, you know, prosecutors
and judges sometimes have that bias, where it's
just wildlife. But it's not it's money. It's
money. And it's freedom. It's their liberty.
And yeah, these guys, these guys stood to make
a lot of money in the caviar business. And if
they're prone to violence anyway, they're not
going to care about a couple of guys from Tennessee
who are trying to make You know business problems
for them. Yeah, exactly and so that really That
hit home hit hard. Yeah, so we had to be extra
mindful in our in our future dealings with them
and you know a specific instance flying out to
LA for this and We had from you received the
information that you learned about the location
being organized crime questionable activities
from California Department of Justice, right?
So we had that in mind and I pick up a USA Today
at the airport to read on the plane in the flight
to LA and sure as hell in the second page of
it is Mafia MAF I YA hoods take on America and
it's talking about the neighborhoods where we
were where we were working. Yeah, I'm like, well,
this is a maybe Kurt Raid is going to get his
wish yet. And so nonetheless, it leads us to
LA and in the business in LA, because we want
to establish that knowledge. And these people
that, you know, especially dealing with foreigners,
whether it's traditional Chinese medicine or
whatever the case is, I didn't understand what
they were saying. I didn't understand. And it's
an easy out. It's incumbent upon us to establish
that knowledge and come to a way that we show
that they understand. And the individual in LA,
in his business, there's the tenants from New
York that he's selling his Russian caviar. And
he's telling us about how it all works. And I
said, you just got to be careful. And I pulled
him aside and I said, just be careful. Don't
become anybody that you're getting it from us
or anything at all like that. And one of my favorite
recordings of that guy, he says, I'll tell them
I make it in my full. What are they going to
do? And I'm like, okay, you're locked in. So
but just, you know, trying to get knowledge from
everybody to be careful is that how's all this?
So you were able to know that's okay. You were
you were able to draw out those incriminating
statements from everybody in New York and LA.
Yes. Nice. And we had we had two uh people left
on the list that we wanted to get to before the
end of the operation okay and we've not been
able to deal with them with our existing covers
so cover number three become a commercial fisherman
poses a commercial fisherman these are my eggs
okay and the next thing um new year's eve gary
phillips and i end up in a snowstorm in the middle
of illinois meeting russian with the hand tattoos
and all the crap um who we later learned was
on the radar of the FBI in Chicago from longest
time. And for his various nefarious acts in life.
And it was interesting with him, his English
was not good. And now I'm talking as a redneck.
So third cover, this thing, I'm trying to sell
him eggs that I caught. And Gary and I are in
the vehicle with him. Like, don't tell anybody
where this came from. Alex, the season's closed.
um I can't go to jail like you know all the things
yep and he would just look and say no talk and
I'm like no no shit I'm telling you be careful
and about the third time I thought he was going
to rip his steering wheel off and he said I said
no talk I'm like okay I think he gets it so yeah
it's not that's not exactly great incriminating
statements from him. Yeah. Two words, right?
Don't talk. Yeah, we sent an agent in Chicago,
Dave Kirby, went to the guy's business in Chicago,
bought some caviar that they had in for sale.
We had Kirby simply ask him, what am I buying
here? My wife, this is our anniversary or some
story along those lines. I want something special.
Like, no, this is Russian. This is all Russian
caviar. Perfect. And what he ended up purchasing,
um, we tested and it was our paddlefish. Nice.
Okay. So that's how we had to sure that guy up
on the other end, bringing in another, another
agent in the support throughout this case from
agents all over the country that wire the cover
teams or, um, search for teams. whatever the
case may be. I remember having in the Nashville
Fish and Wildlife Service at any given time,
we'd have eight agents in there listening to
recordings at the end of the operation because
I couldn't keep up with the reports. So we were
so grateful for the service involvement and support
in so many ways with it. But one thing I amazingly
learned though from you buddy was writing the
most comprehensive affidavits ever. this lesson
I learned from that newcomer and, you know, paid
off the rest of my career. And ultimately those
templates or boilerplates for language and for
writing warrants are now used in several states
for murder cases and their search warrants. But
I attribute this to you, man. And I'm so grateful
for that because there's a science and an art
to writing those things and getting an AUSA to
buy into it. Why did I did I write the warrants
for out in LA or something? I don't even remember.
We've sent you the PC. And there was lots of
questions, of course, from your USA working with
our USA and formats that had to be in in LA and
all of that in just so I remember the one guy
I think it was like 100 pages or so. And Yeah,
but that was all you're doing. I don't even remember
that I didn't remember that I even wrote the
warrants on the LA cases, but that's possible.
Probably I mean, I think I do recall that I was
fairly new, but I had. So it's likely that that
stuff would have been assigned to me, but I do
remember I was assigned to make one of the arrests
on out in LA and was my very first arrest as
a federal agent. So I know out in LA we hooked
up. We hooked up three people were charged out
in LA. How did this all wrap up? What were the
what kind of cases did you make and against who?
So ultimately, we're going to set it done. We
had well over 100 fishermen with violations.
Those were state violations. We had to let the
statute of limitations ride on that because it
was one year. Right. If we couldn't get them
looped into the conspiracy side of things, we
just. weren't going to. So we said, this will
be a strong enough deterrent when their buyers
get prosecuted. Exactly. Out of all of the, I
think it was 19 defendants that were high tier
traffickers was what we ended up prosecuting.
We had one trial lasted about two weeks. Okay,
and that was on the original family that started
it all royal off caviar out of Chattanooga, Tennessee
guy by the name of Hale Okay, he since passed
on I believe but him and his family Trial and
what was interesting throughout all the search
warrants we began to see on the dealers of America
They would record false names. So false records
under Lacey act we began to attribute that and
tie that into it and They were blatant about
it, like Mickey Mouse sold us this. We found
in the industry that people would pimp their
daughters out and then hold it over the head
of a married fisherman. We found in the industry
from the Russians, we began to get high -end
counterfeit goods that they were also dealing
with in New York. And we were swapping that for
caviar as well. The things that they were coming
up with, at the time, the predecessor of Homeland
Security, I think it was they were called Customs.
Yeah. So everything would go to the Customs lab
and Customs lab came back with some most high
quality stuff that we'd ever seen. So it was
great. We brought in other agencies. We had a
tremendous AUSAs and we had support all over
the country from people when it came time to
take it down. At the I think the final everybody
either was found guilty or pled guilty. Nice.
Except for one family member who played an incidental
role and they didn't, we weren't able to get
him tied into it much. Okay. So he wasn't even
charged, but otherwise you had a hundred percent
conviction rates. Yeah. He was charged in all
fairness. He was charged. And I think he may
have got some sort of diversion situation or
something. I, I can't remember what it was, but
everybody else got hit with a felony Lazy Axe.
We, of course, we explored Rico. We met elements
for Rico. We were looking at wire fraud, all
of the things. But ultimately, with the attorneys,
they had some high power ones. The guys in LA,
they had a guy who was an attorney, ESPN's attorney
during the O .J. Simpson. Trial and he was their
commentator. So, you know, he's coming back to
Tennessee because we had venue that was the offended
venue and we had a great a USA who was a he was
an agency USA prior to his time he was a A state
investigator and then he ultimately became an
a USA. So he was great to work with and After
this was all over, did you notice a difference?
Was there a change? Was there less pressure on
the paddlefish? What did you see was the outcome?
So the dealers, yes, for a period of time, they
were severely limited because some of them went
to prison. I think we had 24 months on the hails,
the federal lockup. Lots of probation, dealers,
things like that. So things calmed way down.
Really interesting thing that did happen. I heard
about it after the fact on the Ohio River in
Indiana a couple of Russians bonafide Russians
showed up trying to buy from people and This
is in another state But the people wouldn't deal
with them. They're like, no, no, no, you're under
covers interesting. That's what you want the
rollover effect that we had All in all, things
went really quiet for a period of time, and then
it began to experience another resurgence, where
we prosecuted a few more people overtly, of course,
at that time. But all said and done, I think
there was 19 defendants, most of them out of
New York. We had the dealers out of the South.
And I feel like what we were able to uncover
was Well, definitely improved regulations, improved
reporting, more stringent accountability for
the industry. And that was a direct result of
the operation and what we knew and what we learned.
Ultimately, the search warrants in New York and
in LA, they recovered those same tens that were
full of paddlefish. In New York, just like they
said in their basement, there were freezers full.
of smuggled stuff that you could oftentimes tell
by the cans without chip paint, but on the Russian
ones, but then they'd have the duplicates and
the labels that were made right there in New
York. Yep. So what we went into the operation
with the goal to understand what's happening
with this, is it being falsely labeled? Is it
just being sold as paddle fish? And they laid
it out for us so much so I would get calls, this
is like cocaine here. We need more. Can you get
more? I'm like, it's the middle of the summer.
They're not even grabbing right now. So the demand
was incredible. And along with that, a number
of the individuals post -conviction or throughout
the procedural process began to cooperate. Yeah,
and open eyes to other other things. Yeah, I
was gonna say your case actually led to the development
of some informants in Los Angeles that I worked
those informants for years after you did your
takedowns on this case in 2003 for and yeah,
I worked those informants for years and it led
to multiple other caviar cases in the Los Angeles
area and on the West Coast involving Russians
out here. So it's a lot of times just a matter
of whack -a -mole. We whack down a certain organization
for a while, and it takes the pressure off the
species, and then it comes back, and we got to
whack them again. But Sean, I think this is an
incredible story, and I think there's more to
talk about with regard to caviar, not just powerfish,
but the American sturgeon and the sturgeon that
occur in the Columbia River as well as the Sacramento
River. And there are some other state and federal
officers who've worked on caviar cases before.
There's more to talk about, and I'm sure we will
revisit this on future episodes. Tell us a little
bit, just briefly, what is WETA doing? And if
anybody wants to learn more or donate, you can
go to wetatrain .org and see the website. But
tell us a little bit about what you're doing
there in Zambia. Absolutely. We were founded
in 2018. We ultimately evolved into a 501c3 nonprofit
organization. My wife, Steph, who has been in
law enforcement for 20 plus years in the state
of Colorado, is a wildlife law enforcement and
a wildlife biologist. She's our executive director.
I'm director of training and investigations.
And over that time, we have trained over 3 ,000,
whether it be rangers, investigators, prosecutors,
or magistrates in about, I think, eight countries
in Africa, along with Ecuador in South America.
And in addition to that, we're, you know, trying
to line up new places all the time. We've got,
I'll put our team up against any organization
out there. We've got, of course, you, your international
law enforcement advisor, the experience that
you have internationally. along with federal
law and just your tactics and your approach are
so genuine. We're so grateful to have you on
the team. And we have a couple other team members,
Walter Duran, former Fish and Wildlife Service
agent, and Jim Karani, one of Africa's first
wildlife lawyers. That's right. So he's a Kenyan
becoming Dr. Jim in New York City right now.
But, you know, we're a small, passionate and
dedicated team. That's I mean, it's amazing considering
how you know your size have trained that many
people and that sort of time it's incredible,
you know internationally training is something
that's really needed and Valued especially when
it comes from people who know what they're doing
which you guys do So, you know, thank you for
doing that again. It's wildlife investigators
training alliance and you can visit the website
at we to train org Hey, Sean, I really appreciate
you being with us today. That'll do it for this
episode of Nature's Secret Service. I want to
thank Sean Karn so much for your time. I appreciate
it. Thanks, everybody for tuning in for a long
one. And we'll see you next time. Nature's Secret
Service is written and produced by me, Ed Newcomer,
and is co -produced by the DHTV team here at
California State University Dominguez Hills.
Follow us on social media and connect with us
online at naturessecretservice .com.