WEBVTT

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If you want to learn more about the topics of

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today's episode, visit the podcast website at

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naturessecretservice .com. Thanks for listening.

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Okay, people listen up, here we go. My name is

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Ed Newcomer. I'm the host of Nature's Secret

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Service, the podcast that puts you in the room

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with the men and women of wildlife law enforcement.

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Our guest today is Sean Carnes coming to us all

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the way from his home in get this Lusaka, Zambia.

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So Sean, thank you so much for joining us. It's

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so great to have you here. And thank goodness

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we live in the era we do and we can just Talk

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to you in real time from Zambia This is very

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cool and thank you so much for this opportunity

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I'm looking forward to this and should be a good

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time me too. This is going to be a good story

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and for a lot of reasons Hey, let me just give

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you give you a little bit of background about

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who you are And then if I forget anything you

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can add to it But for our listeners, you know,

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I want people to know, you know Sean is a former

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wildlife officer with the state of Tennessee

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so Up to now, our guests have been federal agents

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from the U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service, but

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Sean was a state wildlife officer, so like a

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state game warden. For many, many years, he worked

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on a lot of undercover cases. He has a very good

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reputation as an undercover officer, working

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with the feds, working on state cases, federal

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cases, the whole deal. Sean and his wife Stephanie

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are also founding directors of the Wildlife Investigators

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Training Alliance, WIDA. which provides training

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to wildlife officers around the world. Sean,

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so great to have you. I know it's in the evening

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there in Zambia, but did I leave anything out

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about your background? No, that's that's that's

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plenty. You know, I've just been so fortunate

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to work with so many dedicated agents and investigators

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and officers over the years. I just hope that

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this this segment can do justice by all their

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hard work as well. Oh, I guarantee you, Will.

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This is fascinating because this is something

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we're going to come back to during this series

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of Nature's Secret Service, and that is this

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issue of caviar trafficking. And I'm sure all

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of our listeners know and understand that caviar,

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in its most basic sense, are fish eggs. And at

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the high end, they can be a delicacy, and they're

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very sought after, particularly in certain ethnic

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communities. But we all know of, you know, the

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classic James Bond and his tuxedo enjoying some

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beluga caviar somewhere. Beluga caviar as a particular

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type of fish comes from sturgeon, a type of sturgeon

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called the beluga. It's only found in the Caspian

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and Black Seas and it's been under a lot of pressure

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for many years. It's an endangered animal. So

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I'm just gonna give a little bit of background

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Sean us Lead you into your story and then we're

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just gonna jump right in because Sean you have

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amazing experience working on caviar trafficking

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cases So basically what we're talking about by

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the let's say into the mid 1990s The cat the

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really popular sought -after caviar's were coming

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out of Eastern Europe. And those fish stocks

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started to be depleted dramatically. So supplies

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were getting short. The beluga sturgeon is a

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fish that can live I don't know, hundreds of

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years, I think more than over 100 years. I'm

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sure they mature dinosaur. Yeah, they're like

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they look like a dinosaur to they they're big,

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they can get to be you know, five, six, seven

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feet long. And they, they live a long time and

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they mature late in life. So the females aren't

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you know, producing eggs, you know, in mass until

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they're pretty old. Anyway, so the fish stock

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starts to be depleted by the mid 1990s, so it's

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becoming more and more rare. It becomes listed

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by CITES and protected under the Convention on

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International Trade of Endangered Species, and

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eventually is listed by the US Fish and Wildlife

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Service as endangered under the Endangered Species

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Act in the US. All of that starts to make legal

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Requirements that make it hard to trade in caviar

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and this causes the people who are profiting

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from caviar to look for alternative sources and

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this is how a Wildlife officer from the state

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of Tennessee gets connected with caviar. So now

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I want to jump to where you start to get involved

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Sean and Basically that your involvement starts

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with being around a fish called the paddle fish,

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right? Yep. So tell it tell me what number one,

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what is a paddle fish? And where are they found?

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Native, they're native to the US. But where are

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they found? And what is it? Certainly, they're

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pretty much contained within the drainage of

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the Mississippi River system. So they'll find

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them as far west as Glendive, Montana, and as

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far east as in they actually made it into the

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rivers of Pennsylvania. So, you know, if you

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think of everything or look at a map of the United

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States and you see that massive drainage of the

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Mississippi River, that's primarily where paddlefish

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occur is throughout that drainage. Also, I must

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say, though, there are species of sturgeon as

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well that occur there. Some of those sturgeon

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were already federally endangered or listed as

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threatened with no harvest. They were primarily

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contained, the sturgeon that we would encounter

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or American sturgeon were contained in the Mississippi

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as well as up the Ohio River. So the real interesting

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thing about this with regards to paddlefish Yes,

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sought after species. And before, I guess probably

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it's in the 80s. There began to be an industry

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for the American paddlefish. And it started in

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the state of Tennessee. So the paddlefish, number

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one, it looks it's a very unique looking fish,

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right? Describe what a paddlefish looks like.

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Sure. You know, a large flat bill that's long

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and they're a filter feeder. So they have the

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ability to go along, open up this large mouth

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and move around and utilize their rostrum where

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their big spatula looking nose as like a sensor.

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And, you know, they as well don't have bones

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like sturgeon. So they're cartilaginous and they're

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another prehistoric dweller. And they can get

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quite massive. I mean, over well over 100 pounds,

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but you know, not so much in recent years due

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to due to overfishing. Interesting. You know,

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the you mentioned American sturgeon. We when

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we talk about caviar, people often associate

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it with those Eastern European fish that the

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beluga sturgeon, the setter sturgeon. Yeah. Sevruga,

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but there are a lot of sturgeon in the US actually

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in the absolutely in the on the west coast. Of

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course, there are sturgeon in the Columbia River.

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And even in California in the Sacramento River,

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there are sturgeon located there. So they're

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not, you know, it's not a non native fish, necessarily.

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Those are different species, of course. But so

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what what historically, what was the what was

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the fishery for paddlefish? Was it for meat or

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eggs? Or what was the you know, prior to what

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we're going to talk about today, historically,

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what is the managed fishery for paddlefish? Why

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would people fish for them? So throughout numerous

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southeastern states, where paddlefish occurred,

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there was a limited fishery for the meat. But

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a lot of times they were just seen, I hate this

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term, but as a junk or a trash fish. It was a

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a non -regulated species occurring with not much

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interest other than local consumption and some

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shipment of meat after it would go to a fish

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house and then subsequently to a fishmonger.

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But there was just not a huge demand. This dealer

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in Tennessee had the occasion to meet some folks

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from uh, New York that were originally from,

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uh, former Soviet block countries that he began

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to do business with them. Um, and this is before.

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Yeah. When was this? So let me back up a little

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bit. Okay. So let me back up a little bit. So

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traditionally though, it would have been local

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people who are just interested in fishing forum,

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uh, not much of a necessarily commercial market,

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but just. Right. Okay. Enough. Right, it wasn't

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it wasn't causing a problem for the population

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of the fish, as you mentioned, they were unregulated,

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they were considered common. So but that starts

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to change, right? At some point, that starts

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to change and more and more pressure start to

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put on these fish. So how did it come to your

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attention that there could be a problem or an

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issue with paddlefish? What happened? You know,

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the craziest thing, I started this work in 1994.

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And in the state of Mississippi. The state of

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Mississippi had no legal harvest of paddlefish

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whatsoever. It was totally closed in protected

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waters. At that point in the investigations unit

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in Mississippi, we began to have some complaints

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that there were people from Tennessee, buyers,

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that were dealing with people because the demand

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was increasing so much that they would go risk

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their necks and solicit these folks in an entirely

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closed state to catch paddlefish. They taught

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them how to process the row because it's a very

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timely process, has to be done very soon. And

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ultimately, there were a group of people in Mississippi

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who I had the occasion to begin to interact with.

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um, on an undercover basis and learn that, Hey,

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those folks from Tennessee are coming down here.

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Those buyers, they're driving the prices. Uh,

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there's a hell of a demand and we're willing

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to take the risk. Um, the dealers have ways to

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cover it. And it was also fascinating to learn.

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So I began to look into it and right about this

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time I had the opportunity to, um, to relocate.

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to Tennessee, which being from the Northeastern

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US originally, I'm fond of Hills. And so it was

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a great opportunity and I had been working in

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conjunction with Joint Operations with Tennessee,

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but I made the move to Tennessee. So you were

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part of the plan with that. You were a Mississippi

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officer before. Yeah. Okay, I didn't know. If

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I knew that, I forgot. I apologize. So you started

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with the state of Mississippi. Okay. All right.

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So you make your water though, like Pennsylvania

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and Mississippi. So a wonderful learning experience.

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That would be a big, big change. Okay, so you

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now you make your move over to Tennessee. You're

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already aware that some people from Tennessee

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are coming into Mississippi specifically for

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illegally sourced paddlefish. Who are these people

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that are coming over by the way? You know they

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were they were dealers that were set up in the

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state of Tennessee and people would come from

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all over wherever paddlefish occurred and we

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later learned sturgeon as well. They come to

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these fish dealers or these fish dealers would

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go out and solicit, they'd show just like what

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happened in Mississippi by really developing

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the market, encouraging the fishery because these

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folks based on contacts in New York had learned

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that, hey, there's a demand for these eggs because

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they look so close to the Russian stuff. Interesting.

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And they could make uh a substantial profit over

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what they would make in the normal commercial

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fishing activities you know for catfish or something

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like that that they would and these are gill

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netters uh mostly okay and um interestingly with

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um with that the state of Tennessee had a legal

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fishery with the prescribed season uh limits

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but they always um from the time they started

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it that fishery, they had a reporting requirement.

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So as soon as I got the Tennessee, I began to

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pull those records and look at them. And I saw

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so many disparities in a paper trail investigation.

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You know, they can be intriguing, but they can

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be mind boggling as well. So starting to compare

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reported harvest with reported acquisition from

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the dealers. Begin to see just these huge fluctuations

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Determined that yeah, this is not accurate. So

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the next step was let's see who people are contacting

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So as gathering intelligence You know going back

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to the basis of everything we and I'm including

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you in this we had I mean everything we do we

00:14:56.309 --> 00:14:58.429
want to have as much intelligence as possible

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We want to know as much about the people as we

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possibly can right? So what do you know? Would

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you find out who who were these people that were

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driving the trade? You know, we identified the

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dealers through who had just from that the paperwork,

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and we began to with these discrepancies, we

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had met the threshold to subpoena phone records.

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Okay, so in this is the time when it would arrive

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five inches deep paper that stuff with the holes

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along the edges that you know, would fold over

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itself, you get a stack of that from the phone

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company. So you're going through these things

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manually. So I spent about four months doing

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that and realized that during the legal season,

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there are people that would be contacting the

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dealers. But during the illegal season, the fish

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aren't gravid, don't have eggs year round, but

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they're still viable early before the season

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and sometimes after depending upon weather and

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water and things like that. So ultimately began

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to see a number of contacts taking place after

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the season. And thought, well, this is bizarre.

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So we continue to get complaints from fisheries

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biologists. And this is vital in wildlife law

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enforcement that we have to oftentimes rely on

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biological data. and biologists as well to get

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their cake. They're the professionals when it

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comes to the species management. I'm a cop. And

00:16:42.730 --> 00:16:47.269
so they began to notice though through surveys

00:16:47.269 --> 00:16:50.350
of fish sampling and things that they would do

00:16:50.350 --> 00:16:53.590
and pursue it to their research that numbers

00:16:53.590 --> 00:16:57.909
were down. They didn't feel as if, or they felt

00:16:57.909 --> 00:17:02.840
as if there was a lot of undue pressure. And

00:17:02.840 --> 00:17:06.180
what was so interesting, because the biologist

00:17:06.180 --> 00:17:08.519
at that time, the commercial fisheries biologist,

00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:11.900
had to have a conversation regularly with these

00:17:11.900 --> 00:17:17.619
dealers. Well, they began to rat to him about

00:17:17.619 --> 00:17:21.140
other dealers. Okay, so the dealers are telling

00:17:21.140 --> 00:17:25.099
the biologist that there's nefarious activities

00:17:25.099 --> 00:17:28.519
taking place, right? Yes, so let's and it's not

00:17:28.519 --> 00:17:32.019
us, you know, yeah, right exactly So let's jump

00:17:32.019 --> 00:17:34.460
ahead a little bit so that you know now you're

00:17:34.460 --> 00:17:37.460
on to something Are these these people though

00:17:37.460 --> 00:17:40.660
that are driving the trade? They're They're not

00:17:40.660 --> 00:17:43.880
from Tennessee, right? I mean who's you know,

00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:46.160
who's interested who's ultimately interested

00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:49.579
in these eggs, right? This is what was so fascinating

00:17:49.579 --> 00:17:53.039
about looking at the phone records was you'd

00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:57.970
see fishermen whether in legal season or closed

00:17:57.970 --> 00:18:00.490
season, their conversations with these dealers.

00:18:01.009 --> 00:18:03.910
And then you'd see the dealers in Tennessee who

00:18:03.910 --> 00:18:06.009
were called wholesale fish dealers at the time.

00:18:06.710 --> 00:18:10.190
They, in turn, were having numerous conversations

00:18:10.190 --> 00:18:15.150
with multiple companies in New York. There were

00:18:15.150 --> 00:18:18.509
some in Chicago, some in California, as well

00:18:18.509 --> 00:18:23.250
as Florida. So we started looking at those companies

00:18:23.250 --> 00:18:28.299
and realizing that of course there's no domestic

00:18:28.299 --> 00:18:30.880
market for these things in Tennessee to speak

00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:36.440
up. Everything is going into interstate commerce.

00:18:37.920 --> 00:18:43.039
And with that began to realize when we looked

00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:45.200
into these dealers in New York and elsewhere,

00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:49.980
that a lot of these have strong connections,

00:18:50.259 --> 00:18:54.680
strong ties to former Soviet Union countries.

00:18:56.160 --> 00:19:00.299
And, you know, New York was and is the hub of

00:19:00.299 --> 00:19:04.339
it with large concentrations of, of Russians,

00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:08.140
Ukrainians, you know, all living together in,

00:19:08.140 --> 00:19:12.519
in Brighton Beach and then around these high

00:19:12.519 --> 00:19:15.940
impact areas. Right. But so, so you've uncovered

00:19:15.940 --> 00:19:20.970
now the commercial driver and it and As our listeners

00:19:20.970 --> 00:19:22.769
will know from talking to other guests, it's

00:19:22.769 --> 00:19:24.809
commercialization of wildlife that can often

00:19:24.809 --> 00:19:28.509
drive it to being coming threatened or becoming

00:19:28.509 --> 00:19:32.250
extinct. So now you've discovered this commercial

00:19:32.250 --> 00:19:34.970
aspect to it. You know you now have Russians

00:19:34.970 --> 00:19:37.990
involved. Presumably, they're trying to find

00:19:37.990 --> 00:19:41.630
replacements for the diminishing supply of beluga,

00:19:41.769 --> 00:19:44.130
et cetera, sevruga, all the sturgeons out of

00:19:44.130 --> 00:19:47.849
Eastern Europe. So. Yeah. And now you've got

00:19:47.849 --> 00:19:50.750
Lacey Act potential charges because you've got

00:19:50.750 --> 00:19:54.390
state violations followed by interstate commerce.

00:19:54.410 --> 00:19:56.490
So you now have a federal felony to be involved

00:19:56.490 --> 00:20:01.230
in. So now you've got to deal with these Russians.

00:20:01.829 --> 00:20:04.829
In order to protect paddlefish in the US, you

00:20:04.829 --> 00:20:06.569
got to deal with these Russians. What's the plan?

00:20:06.630 --> 00:20:11.660
What are you going to do? This is when the more

00:20:11.660 --> 00:20:14.039
the interesting work takes place during the operation.

00:20:14.539 --> 00:20:18.920
So in 1998, we joined forces with Fish and Wildlife

00:20:18.920 --> 00:20:24.900
Service and created a storefront operation, Bonafide

00:20:24.900 --> 00:20:28.559
Business. And that business was an import -export

00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:32.720
company. Wow. Now, I have to share with you at

00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:36.400
the beginning of this, when you're brainstorming

00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:39.039
with your supervisor and your team and everybody,

00:20:39.450 --> 00:20:42.430
What can be our approach? Why are they going

00:20:42.430 --> 00:20:46.509
to sell to us? And all the fishermen at that

00:20:46.509 --> 00:20:50.930
time knew that the dealers would take it and

00:20:50.930 --> 00:20:54.029
sell it in New York for a substantial profit.

00:20:54.829 --> 00:20:58.029
We know that some Russians had circulated around

00:20:58.029 --> 00:21:03.930
through the area from some reports. So we're

00:21:03.930 --> 00:21:05.750
having this brainstorming session and I said,

00:21:05.910 --> 00:21:08.519
what the hell? I'll be Alexander Ivanov. I'll

00:21:08.519 --> 00:21:13.019
pose as a Russian to the Americans. And I had

00:21:13.019 --> 00:21:16.359
a boss at the time. He was one of those that

00:21:16.359 --> 00:21:17.599
would be like, that's never going to work. That's

00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:19.180
never going to work. You know, and I'm like,

00:21:19.460 --> 00:21:22.059
God damn it. Don't tell me that. We're going

00:21:22.059 --> 00:21:23.380
to make it. You know, we're going to give it

00:21:23.380 --> 00:21:27.759
our all. Right. So anyways, yeah, we started

00:21:27.759 --> 00:21:31.660
Eurasian Trading Associates. Okay, I got to stop

00:21:31.660 --> 00:21:35.390
you here because. Number one, you launch right

00:21:35.390 --> 00:21:38.589
off into an undercover business, which is probably

00:21:38.589 --> 00:21:44.410
one of the most difficult labor intensive ways

00:21:44.410 --> 00:21:47.690
to do an undercover case because you're running

00:21:47.690 --> 00:21:50.609
a business. It's an undercover business, but

00:21:50.609 --> 00:21:53.470
you still have to be responsible for all the

00:21:53.470 --> 00:21:56.069
money that comes in and goes out. You're running

00:21:56.069 --> 00:21:59.730
a storefront to the public, to anybody who's

00:21:59.730 --> 00:22:02.740
driving around or coming into the store. It looks

00:22:02.740 --> 00:22:06.839
like a totally legit business, right? Yeah, absolutely.

00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:12.339
It's not easy. It's not easy. The amount of work,

00:22:12.339 --> 00:22:14.119
the first year, I didn't take a day off. I was

00:22:14.119 --> 00:22:16.740
at the storefront or on the road trying to buy

00:22:16.740 --> 00:22:24.660
every day. And during the creation of this thing,

00:22:24.700 --> 00:22:28.000
we wanted to be believable. We wanted the people

00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:30.890
from the southeast to to ultimately get word

00:22:30.890 --> 00:22:33.990
about us, come to us and come in and in their

00:22:33.990 --> 00:22:37.089
minds interact with a bona fide Russian that's

00:22:37.089 --> 00:22:40.049
going to be buying my caviar. So we had to have

00:22:40.049 --> 00:22:42.329
the whole place locked. A funny story. I had

00:22:42.329 --> 00:22:45.269
like a whiteboard behind me with fake orders

00:22:45.269 --> 00:22:50.089
and everything written in Cyrillic and had all

00:22:50.089 --> 00:22:53.769
sorts of notes in Cyrillic. And one of the questions

00:22:53.769 --> 00:22:56.349
we asked was what if the real Russians show up

00:22:56.349 --> 00:22:59.089
and we're like. We'll deal with that when it

00:22:59.089 --> 00:23:01.569
gets here. Let's get these guys because they're

00:23:01.569 --> 00:23:06.349
doing the damage. And if anybody understands,

00:23:06.970 --> 00:23:09.589
in Fish and Wildlife, we're not like the FBI.

00:23:09.710 --> 00:23:11.690
We're not like the DEA or any of the other alphabet

00:23:11.690 --> 00:23:14.009
agencies that have these huge budgets and have

00:23:14.009 --> 00:23:18.809
an incredible support team. It's going to be

00:23:18.809 --> 00:23:21.730
a handful of us tops, and that's on a good day.

00:23:23.890 --> 00:23:26.250
So with that, we decided that we were going to

00:23:26.779 --> 00:23:30.220
launched this business and send out a flyer that,

00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:36.240
hey, we're a licensed buyer and we're here. We

00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:41.519
were relying on, when we did that, a lot of the

00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:44.599
intelligence from the biologist indicated dealers

00:23:44.599 --> 00:23:48.259
snitching on dealers. And it's very cutthroat

00:23:48.259 --> 00:23:50.240
with the fluctuating markets. We thought, well,

00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:52.740
there's not much loyalty in this. So people are

00:23:52.740 --> 00:23:57.099
always looking to get more. Naturally, in any

00:23:57.099 --> 00:23:59.440
commercial entity, those that are the initial

00:23:59.440 --> 00:24:02.720
taker, I feel strongly that, you know, they always

00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:05.660
feel like they could be making more. They're

00:24:05.660 --> 00:24:07.240
putting their neck on the line, they could be

00:24:07.240 --> 00:24:09.019
making more. So that's who we want to appeal

00:24:09.019 --> 00:24:13.339
to. And then some of the fishermen, and then

00:24:13.339 --> 00:24:15.380
some of the dealers, and let's just see what

00:24:15.380 --> 00:24:18.099
happens. Right. So you're initially targeting

00:24:18.099 --> 00:24:20.099
the people who are doing the illegal fishing,

00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:22.380
and they're bringing it to your business to sell.

00:24:22.420 --> 00:24:25.000
So you've got You've got them on commercialization,

00:24:25.240 --> 00:24:27.400
presumably bringing Mississippi fish over into

00:24:27.400 --> 00:24:30.359
Tennessee for your federal charges. Let me ask

00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:33.980
you this. That's a big risk to take to portray

00:24:33.980 --> 00:24:38.240
a Russian, write things on a board in Cyrillic,

00:24:38.779 --> 00:24:41.799
and kind of with the idea of, hey, we'll just

00:24:41.799 --> 00:24:44.220
wing it if the Russians show up. Let me, you

00:24:44.220 --> 00:24:46.829
know, most... You're a very experienced undercover

00:24:46.829 --> 00:24:49.289
officer. So I was a kid and not the smartest

00:24:49.289 --> 00:24:54.130
thing ever well, but but nonetheless you're very

00:24:54.130 --> 00:24:58.009
good and You know, you know that one of the things

00:24:58.009 --> 00:24:59.890
you have to do when you set up an undercover

00:24:59.890 --> 00:25:02.809
persona is There has to be some element of truth

00:25:02.809 --> 00:25:05.190
to it. So how what was your plan? How are you

00:25:05.190 --> 00:25:08.410
gonna portray a Russian? Do you have? Russian

00:25:08.410 --> 00:25:10.369
background or how are you gonna play this? I

00:25:10.369 --> 00:25:14.059
mean one thing that helps is you are not A Tennessee

00:25:14.059 --> 00:25:15.960
Mississippi boy, right? You don't hear it in

00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:18.940
your voice. And so right, you know right away

00:25:18.940 --> 00:25:22.119
at least with the locals Obviously you're not

00:25:22.119 --> 00:25:24.299
from there. So that's a good start. But how are

00:25:24.299 --> 00:25:28.400
you gonna play off being a Russian? I went to

00:25:28.400 --> 00:25:31.140
the bookstore and and they had a tape on the

00:25:31.140 --> 00:25:35.119
clearance bin and In the clearance bin was a

00:25:35.119 --> 00:25:39.279
tape called just enough Russian so I get this

00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:44.299
tape and it's a a man and a woman engaging in

00:25:44.299 --> 00:25:47.779
Russian dialogue with common phrases. And I came

00:25:47.779 --> 00:25:50.319
back with, I'm going to talk like that guy. That's

00:25:50.319 --> 00:25:52.599
what I'm going to sound like when he speaks English.

00:25:53.099 --> 00:25:55.779
I'm going to sound like him. So I did my damnedest

00:25:55.779 --> 00:26:00.180
to mimic that person's English speaking from

00:26:00.180 --> 00:26:04.059
the just enough Russian tape. And I mean, and

00:26:04.059 --> 00:26:07.079
this is part of the obsessive stuff with UC to

00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:10.000
be successful. I listened to probably hundreds

00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:13.900
of hours of it. constantly. I would go home to

00:26:13.900 --> 00:26:16.759
or go to a hotel or whatever, I would put that

00:26:16.759 --> 00:26:19.160
in and just listen to it and repeat phrases.

00:26:19.700 --> 00:26:22.880
I thought, yeah, you know, this, this, this got

00:26:22.880 --> 00:26:24.839
to work. And, you know, bought some silky shiny

00:26:24.839 --> 00:26:27.740
pants and running suits and pointy toe shoes

00:26:27.740 --> 00:26:30.380
and the typical gangster crap and like, yeah,

00:26:30.539 --> 00:26:33.980
that's what I wear. Fortunately, had a very convincing

00:26:34.860 --> 00:26:38.640
undercover vehicle that was, you know, not of

00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:41.799
American origin or anything at all like that.

00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:44.920
And it does let's be convincing. It does help

00:26:44.920 --> 00:26:46.759
if you're going to portray a Russian to wear

00:26:46.759 --> 00:26:51.000
a tracksuit, at least at that time. Especially,

00:26:51.400 --> 00:26:54.500
especially the ones in the ones involved in crime

00:26:54.500 --> 00:26:58.319
that seemed to be their preferred outfit was

00:26:58.319 --> 00:27:01.220
the matching tracksuit with maybe some remind

00:27:01.220 --> 00:27:04.279
me. Do you have any gold chains to go with it?

00:27:05.160 --> 00:27:07.079
Yeah, you know, we'll come back to it if there's

00:27:07.079 --> 00:27:09.759
time. There's a good tracksuit story that is

00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:13.640
tied into it from a trip with the Russians. But,

00:27:13.779 --> 00:27:17.880
you know, we wanted to get these, the takers

00:27:17.880 --> 00:27:20.400
and the dealers. We thought if we can get to

00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:23.779
them, put them over a barrel, hopefully that's

00:27:23.779 --> 00:27:26.740
going to give us enough to tie into the Russians.

00:27:29.339 --> 00:27:32.920
We weren't sure if we would in fact, you know,

00:27:33.019 --> 00:27:35.440
be able to deal with them new face. And we knew

00:27:35.440 --> 00:27:37.880
of course, we're not going to deal with them

00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:40.700
as Russians that just obviously wouldn't wouldn't

00:27:40.700 --> 00:27:47.940
fly. Yeah. So during the storefront, we began

00:27:47.940 --> 00:27:53.319
to garner through undercover contacts. On this

00:27:53.319 --> 00:27:57.180
this operation, I think we had maybe 1800 plus

00:27:57.180 --> 00:28:02.690
recordings. So, um, and these were all, you know,

00:28:02.809 --> 00:28:07.130
phone calls, uh, no texting at the time, but,

00:28:07.210 --> 00:28:12.200
um, begin to go out and meet the fishermen. and

00:28:12.200 --> 00:28:15.440
began to have a better understanding of the organizational

00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:18.500
structure of who kind of controls a specific

00:28:18.500 --> 00:28:21.380
area. Because we found that there were kind of

00:28:21.380 --> 00:28:23.779
like these suppliers who they directed fishermen

00:28:23.779 --> 00:28:27.400
to go. They would come up with the way to cover

00:28:27.400 --> 00:28:32.059
closed season. Perhaps if the state of Kentucky

00:28:32.059 --> 00:28:34.660
was open, they would buy a license in Kentucky

00:28:34.660 --> 00:28:40.740
and say, these are Kentucky eggs. And we began

00:28:40.740 --> 00:28:44.230
to as this was developing, and we're buying caviar.

00:28:44.269 --> 00:28:46.569
So I had to develop a taste and act like I knew

00:28:46.569 --> 00:28:49.529
what I was doing with this. Right. You know,

00:28:49.650 --> 00:28:52.309
Ed, I don't eat chicken eggs, let alone a damn

00:28:52.309 --> 00:28:54.569
fish egg. How am I going to do this without gag

00:28:54.569 --> 00:28:57.930
reflex kicking in? And, and be convincing and,

00:28:58.130 --> 00:29:00.809
you know, say something back with an accent that

00:29:00.809 --> 00:29:02.910
Oh, God, this is the best I've ever had. And,

00:29:03.069 --> 00:29:06.390
you know, make them love you. That's that was

00:29:06.390 --> 00:29:09.140
that was some of the hardest part putting the

00:29:09.140 --> 00:29:12.299
shit in my mouth. They're telling him how good

00:29:12.299 --> 00:29:21.160
it is. So it was as as an evil. I get it. Yeah.

00:29:21.160 --> 00:29:23.859
And they began to tell us, though, about what

00:29:23.859 --> 00:29:27.140
their other dealers had coached them to do. And

00:29:27.140 --> 00:29:29.160
this is where we're getting into knowledge and

00:29:29.160 --> 00:29:33.059
establishing their culpability and seeing that

00:29:33.059 --> 00:29:36.539
a lot of the the trafficking that was happening

00:29:36.539 --> 00:29:41.410
was, in fact, directed by these Tennessee and

00:29:41.410 --> 00:29:46.089
other southeastern level dealers. They would

00:29:46.089 --> 00:29:49.410
coach them, get that out of state license. And

00:29:49.410 --> 00:29:52.289
one day with one of them, something really interesting

00:29:52.289 --> 00:29:56.349
happened. There was an individual we ended up

00:29:56.349 --> 00:29:59.529
buying thousands of pounds from, and he would

00:29:59.529 --> 00:30:01.890
collect it from various people, but he got so

00:30:01.890 --> 00:30:04.430
comfortable with me, he'd have them over to meet

00:30:04.430 --> 00:30:11.500
the Russian. Here, I could talk to them in my

00:30:11.500 --> 00:30:14.680
pseudo accent and say, oh, you make very good

00:30:14.680 --> 00:30:17.440
egg. Is this, you know, yours? Yep, caught it

00:30:17.440 --> 00:30:19.500
yesterday. And I'm going, yes, I know, because

00:30:19.500 --> 00:30:22.220
surveillance had you on the river in Tennessee

00:30:22.220 --> 00:30:25.480
clothes. So things were coming together. Keeping

00:30:25.480 --> 00:30:30.200
track of it was the hard part. And one day I

00:30:30.200 --> 00:30:34.819
went to this specific dealer and we went in and

00:30:34.819 --> 00:30:40.160
he had the caviar processed. And he said, I have

00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:43.339
something special to show you. And he opens up

00:30:43.339 --> 00:30:46.880
the container. And the caviar was distinctly

00:30:46.880 --> 00:30:48.799
different. It was a much lighter color and much

00:30:48.799 --> 00:30:52.839
larger eggs. And I said to him, oh, this is beautiful.

00:30:52.900 --> 00:30:57.720
This is what I'd love. Now, this is endangered.

00:30:59.140 --> 00:31:01.180
It was a sturgeon out of the Mississippi River.

00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:04.890
Whoa, nice. And I'm like. Oh, did your other

00:31:04.890 --> 00:31:07.490
dealer coached you or told you well how to separate

00:31:07.490 --> 00:31:09.230
the eggs? He goes, oh yeah, he made sure of that.

00:31:09.329 --> 00:31:13.190
And he always paid us more. So those recordings

00:31:13.190 --> 00:31:15.670
play well against the dealer. Those recordings,

00:31:15.710 --> 00:31:21.230
of course, play well against the defendant. And

00:31:21.230 --> 00:31:25.890
so we found that they would open up and want

00:31:25.890 --> 00:31:29.380
to tell the Russians how clever they were. They're

00:31:29.380 --> 00:31:32.819
almost bragging about their skill at being illegal,

00:31:32.819 --> 00:31:37.079
right? Yeah, totally. And none of that was very

00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:41.859
instant. That was the first year and a half.

00:31:43.740 --> 00:31:46.960
We use the phrase, when we do our training, they

00:31:46.960 --> 00:31:51.400
had to progress their way to the dance with the

00:31:51.400 --> 00:31:55.839
bad guy. So it's just a matter of... buying legal,

00:31:55.839 --> 00:31:59.440
not asking too many questions and gaining their

00:31:59.440 --> 00:32:03.599
trust. Right. And it got to the point that we

00:32:03.599 --> 00:32:09.319
had so much, so much in. And we realize, you

00:32:09.319 --> 00:32:14.240
know, we're buying, we have to sell. And, and

00:32:14.240 --> 00:32:18.960
as the government at that time, so the storefront

00:32:18.960 --> 00:32:25.650
ran from 98 to 2000, almost 2002. Okay. So four

00:32:25.650 --> 00:32:30.130
years. Wow. But as the government it's incumbent

00:32:30.130 --> 00:32:33.690
upon us to put public safety first. Right. So

00:32:33.690 --> 00:32:37.450
anything that we would buy we would send to the

00:32:37.450 --> 00:32:40.009
forensic lab to identify species to make sure

00:32:40.009 --> 00:32:41.750
because sometimes you're looking at all these

00:32:41.750 --> 00:32:47.609
eggs. But also we were having random lots tested

00:32:47.609 --> 00:32:52.430
for contaminants. Right. throughout the drainage

00:32:52.430 --> 00:32:55.089
and you know we don't want to be responsible

00:32:55.089 --> 00:32:58.710
for this so we exercise as government due diligence

00:32:58.710 --> 00:33:03.230
as much as we possibly can. We had this caviar

00:33:03.230 --> 00:33:05.230
and we were beginning to the funds were running

00:33:05.230 --> 00:33:07.490
low and I'm sitting in the storefront one day

00:33:07.490 --> 00:33:13.769
and one of the the informal ways Russians would

00:33:13.769 --> 00:33:16.160
answer the phone would be alo. like I'm like

00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:19.640
hello and so I'm like I can do that because the

00:33:19.640 --> 00:33:23.140
guy on the tape told me I can talk that way and

00:33:23.140 --> 00:33:27.180
so I answer the phone at the store and I say

00:33:27.180 --> 00:33:29.960
hello and the guy on the other end of the line

00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:34.059
says hello oh shoot and I'm like all I can think

00:33:34.059 --> 00:33:38.839
of it was hold yeah oh that's a no shit moment

00:33:38.839 --> 00:33:42.660
look about the Russians have reached out to you

00:33:42.660 --> 00:33:46.599
now what But I didn't feel like anybody was going

00:33:46.599 --> 00:33:50.299
to show up because here we are nestled, you know,

00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:53.859
kind of in a town in the Tennessee Georgia line,

00:33:53.859 --> 00:33:57.319
not endorsing the band, but that's where we were

00:33:57.319 --> 00:34:03.140
at. I guess we were the first ones. And so anyways,

00:34:03.400 --> 00:34:05.720
this guy on the other line, I'm like, oh my God.

00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:08.340
All right. Deep breaths, deep breaths, deep breaths.

00:34:09.099 --> 00:34:11.739
Came on with my regular voice and I said, hello,

00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:14.719
this is John, can I help you? And the guy asked

00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:17.139
who was that? And I said, oh, that's Ivanov.

00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:19.199
He had to go to the other room and get something.

00:34:19.260 --> 00:34:23.460
The guy's like, okay. He begins to talk to me.

00:34:23.699 --> 00:34:27.099
This Russian from New York. Can you send me a

00:34:27.099 --> 00:34:31.599
sample? Absolutely. We'll send you a sample.

00:34:31.800 --> 00:34:35.119
You'd FedEx it overnight. The guy, they tasted

00:34:35.119 --> 00:34:38.760
our sample, looked at it and said, okay, we want

00:34:38.760 --> 00:34:46.230
like 100 pounds. And at the time, maybe $55 a

00:34:46.230 --> 00:34:50.369
pound, a hundred pounds. So yeah, we can get

00:34:50.369 --> 00:34:53.309
it to you. We began to just move the row and

00:34:53.309 --> 00:34:58.969
have conversations with the Russians. And we

00:34:58.969 --> 00:35:01.690
were reliable and because of the people we were

00:35:01.690 --> 00:35:03.530
getting it from, I think we had probably some

00:35:03.530 --> 00:35:08.159
of the best stuff out there. We wanted the other...

00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:10.019
Yeah, go ahead. Let me there's a couple things

00:35:10.019 --> 00:35:12.760
I want to just talk about here, because it's

00:35:12.760 --> 00:35:14.940
important for you and I, I know exactly what

00:35:14.940 --> 00:35:16.980
you're talking about, but listeners might not.

00:35:17.460 --> 00:35:20.659
So one of the terms you're using is row and just

00:35:20.659 --> 00:35:22.940
so people know that's fish eggs, row is fish

00:35:22.940 --> 00:35:27.579
eggs, also caviar. But you know, so we're running

00:35:27.579 --> 00:35:31.280
an undercover business. A lot of times, undercover

00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:33.599
businesses are just set up to buy contraband.

00:35:33.820 --> 00:35:35.820
But if you're going to run one for a long time,

00:35:35.820 --> 00:35:38.550
and if this one went for four years, you also

00:35:38.550 --> 00:35:41.730
sometimes have to sell. And I've done that too,

00:35:41.809 --> 00:35:43.630
where I've run an undercover business where I'm

00:35:43.630 --> 00:35:46.610
buying and selling, or I'm just selling, but

00:35:46.610 --> 00:35:49.670
sometimes selling is important. But I've never

00:35:49.670 --> 00:35:52.750
run a business where I had a consumable item,

00:35:52.789 --> 00:35:56.530
right? And your point is very well taken. You're

00:35:56.530 --> 00:36:02.010
selling fish caviar. And so buying it is one

00:36:02.010 --> 00:36:04.090
thing. If you're buying contraband making your

00:36:04.059 --> 00:36:06.599
You're building your cases against these local

00:36:06.599 --> 00:36:09.079
people who are illegally fishing and then the

00:36:09.079 --> 00:36:11.440
brokers who are bringing it to you. You don't

00:36:11.440 --> 00:36:13.699
have to worry about public safety because you're

00:36:13.699 --> 00:36:15.880
just buying. But when you turn around and start

00:36:15.880 --> 00:36:21.639
to sell a consumable, that is a kudos to you,

00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:23.960
number one, for thinking about it. But of course,

00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:26.260
because you're the government, you have to take

00:36:26.260 --> 00:36:28.400
those. You're held to an even higher standard.

00:36:28.710 --> 00:36:31.030
you have to make sure that you know, your processing

00:36:31.030 --> 00:36:33.050
facilities are clean, you meet all the right

00:36:33.050 --> 00:36:35.849
state standards, all the federal standards for

00:36:35.849 --> 00:36:38.809
producing a food product and packaging it. Because

00:36:38.809 --> 00:36:42.110
God forbid, there's some Listeria breakout that

00:36:42.110 --> 00:36:45.289
is linked to yes, an undercover business, right?

00:36:45.469 --> 00:36:50.690
Crazy, crazy. Exactly. So yeah, needles all the

00:36:50.690 --> 00:36:52.630
time. Totally, totally pins and needles. But

00:36:52.630 --> 00:36:54.929
at the same time, you got to do it in order to

00:36:54.929 --> 00:36:57.650
look legit. At some point, right got to be selling

00:36:57.650 --> 00:37:01.300
and Once those Russians reach out to you, you

00:37:01.300 --> 00:37:03.159
got to get into those Russians because now you

00:37:03.159 --> 00:37:05.659
know, you've got probably organized criminal

00:37:05.659 --> 00:37:10.019
activity involving these state protected animals

00:37:10.019 --> 00:37:13.880
Right. So this is a huge break when this Russian

00:37:13.880 --> 00:37:16.820
calls you it's also no shit moment because now

00:37:16.820 --> 00:37:19.860
yeah now you need to make a pivot on your undercover

00:37:19.860 --> 00:37:23.980
because You are pretending to be a Russian dude,

00:37:24.019 --> 00:37:29.090
but you don't speak Russian Right, right So I

00:37:29.090 --> 00:37:31.590
want to ask you, I think I know how I would play

00:37:31.590 --> 00:37:34.670
this off once I realized, oh crap, we're going

00:37:34.670 --> 00:37:36.789
to have to deal with Russians. But I want to

00:37:36.789 --> 00:37:40.309
know what did you decide to do? You had to have

00:37:40.309 --> 00:37:42.469
made a decision at that moment. OK, we're going

00:37:42.469 --> 00:37:45.409
to engage with Russians now. How am I going to

00:37:45.409 --> 00:37:47.309
explain that I'm a Russian dude with a Russian

00:37:47.309 --> 00:37:50.250
accent that doesn't speak Russian? How do you

00:37:50.250 --> 00:37:55.429
explain it? So I became John. Oh, you did. You

00:37:55.429 --> 00:37:58.969
pivoted to a whole new character. Yes, and this

00:37:58.969 --> 00:38:01.030
is character number two. There is one more that'll

00:38:01.030 --> 00:38:04.309
show up at the end. That's what's Like we said,

00:38:04.349 --> 00:38:06.230
we're not the big alphabet agencies. We don't

00:38:06.230 --> 00:38:08.170
have all these men power to bring these people

00:38:08.170 --> 00:38:11.409
in so I love this This is not what I would have

00:38:11.409 --> 00:38:13.110
done because I wouldn't have thought of it, but

00:38:13.110 --> 00:38:17.869
this is brilliant. Okay So yeah, one is John

00:38:17.869 --> 00:38:20.869
is head of regional sales for the company and

00:38:20.869 --> 00:38:24.019
I'm glad to help you and it just snowballed from

00:38:24.019 --> 00:38:26.280
there, John became the point of contact with

00:38:26.280 --> 00:38:31.619
the Russians. So this is almost like this is

00:38:31.619 --> 00:38:35.920
almost like a 70s sitcom where you're, you know,

00:38:36.059 --> 00:38:39.239
you know, inevitably, the scene has to happen

00:38:39.239 --> 00:38:41.940
where what was the you're rushing the undercover

00:38:41.940 --> 00:38:47.320
name, Evgeny? Was it Alexander Ivanov? Okay,

00:38:47.340 --> 00:38:50.340
so at some point, you know, John and Alexander

00:38:50.340 --> 00:38:52.079
are supposed to be at the same dinner party.

00:38:52.739 --> 00:38:55.280
And you're running in and out changing your outfit.

00:38:58.460 --> 00:39:01.920
Anyway, so, so with the Russians, you transition

00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:05.420
to this new undercover persona, John. And so

00:39:05.420 --> 00:39:08.980
how does this play out? What happens now you're

00:39:08.980 --> 00:39:11.360
going to develop cases against Russians in New

00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:13.760
York, anywhere else? Where else were the Russians?

00:39:14.489 --> 00:39:17.530
You know, they directed and led a lot of that.

00:39:17.550 --> 00:39:20.090
That was the beautiful part. And that's what

00:39:20.090 --> 00:39:24.929
ultimately led me to meet Ed Newcomer. And, you

00:39:24.929 --> 00:39:28.469
know, it's out in LA. But what was so fascinating,

00:39:29.269 --> 00:39:32.510
by day that we choked about it, by day, I'd be

00:39:32.510 --> 00:39:35.409
Alex, I'd be buying caviar from the Americans.

00:39:35.670 --> 00:39:39.170
And then I transitioned to John to deal with

00:39:39.170 --> 00:39:43.329
the Russians. Crazy. We started selling serious

00:39:43.329 --> 00:39:46.829
amounts. And with that, but we're like, okay,

00:39:46.929 --> 00:39:49.750
we want to get knowledge that culpability of

00:39:49.750 --> 00:39:52.150
these guys, do they know what they're doing is

00:39:52.150 --> 00:39:54.750
illegal? We need to open that door up somehow.

00:39:55.530 --> 00:39:59.070
Right. So after, um, I don't know, sending several

00:39:59.070 --> 00:40:03.349
hundred pounds, um, to both New York and then

00:40:03.349 --> 00:40:06.070
ultimately to Los Angeles at the direction of

00:40:06.070 --> 00:40:09.980
New York. I see. Okay. And they also had us,

00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:12.820
the New York contact, had us shipping it to three

00:40:12.820 --> 00:40:16.320
or four other Russians in New York. And what

00:40:16.320 --> 00:40:18.860
they would request is just send it directly to

00:40:18.860 --> 00:40:25.340
them. But on the airway bill from FedEx, don't

00:40:25.340 --> 00:40:28.519
put that it was from you. Just put that it was

00:40:28.519 --> 00:40:33.179
from us. And we want to be sure. I'm thinking,

00:40:33.219 --> 00:40:35.900
oh, that's great. we're going to have to interact

00:40:35.900 --> 00:40:38.199
with these other people if we're ever going to

00:40:38.199 --> 00:40:41.780
figure out, you know, more about them. Right.

00:40:42.280 --> 00:40:45.460
So while packing up cab chip to them, I'd always

00:40:45.460 --> 00:40:47.500
drop a handful of business cards in the box.

00:40:47.500 --> 00:40:52.039
Nice. And and then ultimately they started contacting

00:40:52.039 --> 00:40:55.000
us independently to get it. And everybody was

00:40:55.000 --> 00:41:01.539
behind everybody's back. And that during the

00:41:01.539 --> 00:41:05.050
conversation. with the directing one out of New

00:41:05.050 --> 00:41:08.809
York, I asked him, because we had the interest,

00:41:08.829 --> 00:41:11.469
of course, in the Russian stuff, what is happening

00:41:11.469 --> 00:41:14.230
with this? And you'd hear about instances at

00:41:14.230 --> 00:41:18.349
JFK or LA where couriers would have it in their

00:41:18.349 --> 00:41:21.769
suitcases and be apprehended at the port and

00:41:21.769 --> 00:41:24.389
thinking, how's it all coming in this way? So

00:41:24.389 --> 00:41:28.650
I said to him, hey, man, you're Russian. Do you

00:41:28.650 --> 00:41:31.659
get access to the Russian stuff? You could have

00:41:31.659 --> 00:41:34.840
heard a pin drop. Really? And he begins to tell

00:41:34.840 --> 00:41:39.980
me, um, first of all, yes, we get it. We have

00:41:39.980 --> 00:41:42.179
all the connections and I'm like, at this time

00:41:42.179 --> 00:41:44.760
I'm, I'm like losing it. You know, I'm like,

00:41:44.860 --> 00:41:47.880
yes, awesome. This is we're going. He begins

00:41:47.880 --> 00:41:51.500
to tell me about how, um, they have access to

00:41:51.500 --> 00:41:53.380
a lot of it. And as a matter of fact, during

00:41:53.380 --> 00:41:56.579
that phone call, he said, we just had two point.

00:41:56.800 --> 00:42:02.000
something tons of Kaluga, Chinese sturgeon, very

00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:05.079
similar to Beluga, had a level of protection.

00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:09.239
So we just had two tons of it come in. And in

00:42:09.239 --> 00:42:14.059
my experience, in my experience, Kaluga was often

00:42:14.059 --> 00:42:16.800
code for Beluga. It actually wasn't Kaluga, it

00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:19.159
was actually Beluga. And you know, another thing

00:42:19.159 --> 00:42:21.909
I wanted to point out is I'll try to put some

00:42:21.909 --> 00:42:25.449
photos of what caviar looks like on the Nature's

00:42:25.449 --> 00:42:27.530
Secret Service webpage so people can go look.

00:42:28.469 --> 00:42:31.230
But a lot of these dealers claim they can eyeball

00:42:31.230 --> 00:42:33.389
the difference that they're looking at. Oh, that's

00:42:33.389 --> 00:42:37.190
beluga versus it's very difficult. Yes, sometimes

00:42:37.190 --> 00:42:39.550
the eggs are a little bit bigger than other species.

00:42:39.969 --> 00:42:43.110
But in my experience, it's very difficult to

00:42:43.110 --> 00:42:46.440
eyeball. So as you were doing in this case, law

00:42:46.440 --> 00:42:48.719
enforcement often sends these to specialized

00:42:48.719 --> 00:42:51.699
labs that can do DNA testing and tell you exactly

00:42:51.699 --> 00:42:54.960
what animal it came from. And in my experience,

00:42:55.280 --> 00:42:58.460
Kaluga was often actually beluga out of the Caspian

00:42:58.460 --> 00:43:02.199
Sea, or Black Sea. Yeah, and that was one thing

00:43:02.199 --> 00:43:03.900
we discussed, is he just, you know, he doesn't

00:43:03.900 --> 00:43:05.920
know me enough, is he seeing this beluga thing?

00:43:06.139 --> 00:43:08.340
And frankly, at the time, I didn't know what

00:43:08.340 --> 00:43:11.900
a Kaluga was. I had not even heard it. So immediately,

00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:15.869
my one of my first kudos out to Fish and Wildlife

00:43:15.869 --> 00:43:18.989
Service agents, Gary Phillips was our case agent.

00:43:19.190 --> 00:43:23.929
Okay. And Gary was about seven hours away from

00:43:23.929 --> 00:43:27.190
the store front location. And he was making trips

00:43:27.190 --> 00:43:31.090
every week anytime I need to cover Gary was there.

00:43:31.190 --> 00:43:34.849
One of the most solid human beings I've ever

00:43:34.849 --> 00:43:39.650
put my you know, my trust in to truly have my

00:43:39.650 --> 00:43:45.139
back. Gary's an incredible guy. And Um, so Gary,

00:43:45.300 --> 00:43:47.920
I call him after contact. So we sometimes we'd

00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:49.340
be talking at midnight, you know, of course.

00:43:49.659 --> 00:43:52.599
Right. And he said, let me get in the fish and

00:43:52.599 --> 00:43:54.440
wildlife service system and see how many, if

00:43:54.440 --> 00:43:56.679
there's any declarations or any import permits

00:43:56.679 --> 00:44:01.000
for gluga. And after talk to this guy found out

00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:05.000
that there was only like 1 .7 kilos permitted

00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:07.760
to come in. And it was probably for some laboratory

00:44:07.760 --> 00:44:09.719
situation. Probably. Yep. So we thought, well,

00:44:09.780 --> 00:44:12.920
this is awfully, awfully screwy, but this is.

00:44:12.920 --> 00:44:15.239
you know, let's open up the door. And I asked

00:44:15.239 --> 00:44:17.340
the guy about it casually a few days later, he's

00:44:17.340 --> 00:44:21.739
like, man, that's gone. And I'm like, okay, so

00:44:21.739 --> 00:44:28.699
they had heard about us. Some of their friends,

00:44:28.760 --> 00:44:30.920
they weren't buying caviar from them in New York

00:44:30.920 --> 00:44:32.820
anymore. They were coming straight to us from

00:44:32.820 --> 00:44:36.599
the business card fiasco. Right, right. So they

00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:40.679
said, we need to have a meeting. And I said,

00:44:40.780 --> 00:44:44.219
okay, I need a What kind of meeting you want

00:44:44.219 --> 00:44:47.860
to have? Let's do it in New York. And we want

00:44:47.860 --> 00:44:51.260
to talk about basically securing long -term business,

00:44:51.719 --> 00:44:55.199
all this sort of thing. Fantastic. And I needed

00:44:55.199 --> 00:44:59.119
a partner who was going to be savvy, who had

00:44:59.119 --> 00:45:05.579
experience. And thus, my mentor for undercover

00:45:05.579 --> 00:45:08.260
work, Dave Cartwright, rest his soul. He just

00:45:08.260 --> 00:45:11.949
passed away this past year. Dave Cartwright was

00:45:11.949 --> 00:45:15.469
a service agent at the end of his career. Matter

00:45:15.469 --> 00:45:17.309
of fact, for this, he became an annuitant and

00:45:17.309 --> 00:45:21.170
got to stay on longer to help. So I learned so

00:45:21.170 --> 00:45:23.929
much. This guy had so much incredible technique

00:45:23.929 --> 00:45:28.730
with any group. And so Dave, could you, I need

00:45:28.730 --> 00:45:30.570
you to be like a business partner with the company,

00:45:30.769 --> 00:45:33.949
a financial back or something. And he's like,

00:45:33.969 --> 00:45:39.510
count me in. And enthusiastically, I might add,

00:45:39.610 --> 00:45:43.010
just because that's the nature of Gabe Cartwright.

00:45:43.449 --> 00:45:45.650
A perfect situation, too. You've got a Fed and

00:45:45.650 --> 00:45:47.650
a state officer working together. So you're going

00:45:47.650 --> 00:45:50.469
to have state laws and federal laws covered in

00:45:50.469 --> 00:45:55.530
terms of experience and expertise. Yeah, absolutely.

00:45:56.280 --> 00:45:59.000
I've, you know, throughout my career, I've had

00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:02.639
amazing experiences working with service agents

00:46:02.639 --> 00:46:05.360
on joint cases, whether it's, you know, outfit

00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:09.139
or undercover cases in the western US or duck

00:46:09.139 --> 00:46:11.820
hunting cases or, you know, waterfowl cases kind

00:46:11.820 --> 00:46:14.820
of thing. But for the most part, I've truly enjoyed

00:46:14.820 --> 00:46:17.559
working with service agents. And there's always

00:46:17.559 --> 00:46:20.940
a few exceptions. Yeah, there's a few exceptions.

00:46:22.260 --> 00:46:24.880
That'll be a different episode. We'll talk about

00:46:24.880 --> 00:46:27.380
that. Yeah. Well, I noticed I'm not on their

00:46:27.380 --> 00:46:29.280
Christmas card list either, but that's okay.

00:46:29.659 --> 00:46:31.679
Yeah, that's okay. That's one of them. We all

00:46:31.679 --> 00:46:33.579
know who those and you know what, more importantly,

00:46:33.679 --> 00:46:36.539
those people know who they are too, right? Yeah,

00:46:36.820 --> 00:46:41.079
absolutely. So okay, so you and Dave are going

00:46:41.079 --> 00:46:43.139
to actually go up to New York and have meetings

00:46:43.139 --> 00:46:46.159
with Russians. This is hardcore now. Yeah. Okay.

00:46:46.460 --> 00:46:51.039
So tell us about that. What happens? Well, we

00:46:51.039 --> 00:46:53.539
go to, um, and mind you, we had been sending

00:46:53.539 --> 00:46:55.460
it their direction, like I said, to LA as well.

00:46:55.519 --> 00:47:01.119
So we, we had an element there. Um, and it, at

00:47:01.119 --> 00:47:03.420
this point in time, along with the four or five

00:47:03.420 --> 00:47:06.280
others in New York, trying to get amounts to

00:47:06.280 --> 00:47:09.460
them and trying to have conversations of them

00:47:09.460 --> 00:47:12.880
to get them to understand that it's closed season

00:47:12.880 --> 00:47:15.519
right now. You know, if you're willing to put

00:47:15.519 --> 00:47:20.119
your neck on the line. Um, well, we'll send it,

00:47:20.300 --> 00:47:22.340
but it can't, you've got to cover this kind of

00:47:22.340 --> 00:47:26.579
thing. So this is going on extensively. And we

00:47:26.579 --> 00:47:27.960
knew we were going to be meeting with two of

00:47:27.960 --> 00:47:30.599
the Russians, a father and son team in Staten

00:47:30.599 --> 00:47:36.739
Island. Okay. So, um, we flew in and to New York

00:47:36.739 --> 00:47:40.219
and Cartwright, um, the, was, uh, you know, kind

00:47:40.219 --> 00:47:43.260
of the financial backer and he was at the demographic

00:47:43.260 --> 00:47:47.079
and agent and he looked sharp. We rent this big

00:47:47.079 --> 00:47:52.019
ass boat of a Cadillac and we cruise on out to

00:47:52.019 --> 00:47:55.880
Staten Island and you know just have very common

00:47:55.880 --> 00:47:57.900
conversation with the guys. We're laying eyes

00:47:57.900 --> 00:48:01.320
on them and they're like we're gonna go eat and

00:48:01.320 --> 00:48:06.300
okay where we going? And said our friend of ours

00:48:06.300 --> 00:48:12.420
has a restaurant in Queens and I'm like okay.

00:48:12.639 --> 00:48:15.840
This sounds interesting and what's it called?

00:48:16.400 --> 00:48:19.159
And he names the restaurant Troika. Mind you,

00:48:19.300 --> 00:48:23.619
we had a cover team, Gary Phillips from the South

00:48:23.619 --> 00:48:27.619
and a couple other folks. And we also had the

00:48:27.619 --> 00:48:31.639
team of agents in New York City. Okay. Who, you

00:48:31.639 --> 00:48:34.559
know, can't stress the importance of cover teams

00:48:34.559 --> 00:48:37.639
enough. We do too many of these lone ranger things.

00:48:37.639 --> 00:48:40.260
And it's it's not best practice. It was reckless.

00:48:40.260 --> 00:48:43.179
And I was grateful to have this cover team and

00:48:43.179 --> 00:48:46.019
especially the New York agents because they knew

00:48:46.019 --> 00:48:48.940
the back roads, they knew what how to get around

00:48:48.940 --> 00:48:51.820
in New York. Yeah, New York, New York, Los Angeles,

00:48:51.820 --> 00:48:54.820
those are not easy places to run a cover team

00:48:54.820 --> 00:48:58.679
that doesn't get noticed, right? Yeah. Yeah,

00:48:58.760 --> 00:49:02.659
exactly. And so when we couldn't convey to them,

00:49:03.239 --> 00:49:05.460
we had a body wire transmitting to the cover

00:49:05.460 --> 00:49:09.579
team. And of course, that time, very limited

00:49:09.579 --> 00:49:15.800
duration of power. We didn't know how long or

00:49:15.800 --> 00:49:19.659
what we didn't know any particulars. But fortunately,

00:49:19.980 --> 00:49:21.639
our case agent, Gary Phillips says, you know,

00:49:21.699 --> 00:49:24.199
let's let's let's go with it. I trust them. They

00:49:24.199 --> 00:49:28.719
can decide. So we go out the Russians from Staten

00:49:28.719 --> 00:49:32.039
Island get in the car with us and We pull in

00:49:32.039 --> 00:49:35.820
front of a place in this restaurant says troika

00:49:35.820 --> 00:49:39.519
over the door ironically a different there's

00:49:39.519 --> 00:49:43.199
another troika, but Like oh, okay. This seems

00:49:43.199 --> 00:49:46.960
pretty cool Guys who were we meeting? What's

00:49:46.960 --> 00:49:48.659
the story? You know, like well his name is John

00:49:48.659 --> 00:49:51.639
and We're just gonna have lunch with them talk

00:49:51.639 --> 00:49:53.099
to him a little bit. We just want to show him

00:49:53.099 --> 00:49:56.079
you guys are cool And, um, and we want to talk

00:49:56.079 --> 00:49:57.639
to you guys about cornering the business, but

00:49:57.639 --> 00:49:59.219
more than anything, we're just looking for Yon's

00:49:59.219 --> 00:50:03.159
approval. Okay. All right. So now, I mean, you

00:50:03.159 --> 00:50:06.320
know, you're thinking this shit's amping up a

00:50:06.320 --> 00:50:09.099
little bit. Yeah. This is pretty bizarre. Yeah.

00:50:09.179 --> 00:50:11.559
You're moving up the chain at seniority. Yeah.

00:50:11.599 --> 00:50:15.059
Okay. We walk into the doors of this beautiful

00:50:15.059 --> 00:50:17.619
place. And as we walk into the doors, sure as

00:50:17.619 --> 00:50:20.260
shit, there's two guys standing there with the

00:50:20.260 --> 00:50:24.739
fricking nylon sweatsuits on in the lobby. And

00:50:24.739 --> 00:50:26.860
I look at Dave Cartwright, you'll hear what I'm

00:50:26.860 --> 00:50:30.000
referring to him as. This guy had the ability

00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:34.960
as an officer, or as an undercover officer, to

00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:37.280
when things would get tense, he could keep it

00:50:37.280 --> 00:50:41.579
chill. Or he could deescalate in such a natural

00:50:41.579 --> 00:50:43.860
way. Or he could make you laugh when you needed

00:50:43.860 --> 00:50:46.599
it. Important skill. So we walk in, we see these

00:50:46.599 --> 00:50:49.719
guys and they're like, we're going downstairs.

00:50:50.239 --> 00:50:53.059
So we start to proceed down a marble staircase

00:50:53.059 --> 00:50:56.679
that continued to whine underground. It's in

00:50:56.679 --> 00:51:00.679
the basement with these brass railings. And I'm

00:51:00.679 --> 00:51:02.340
realizing at the time that our transmitter is

00:51:02.340 --> 00:51:04.619
not going to transmit out of here. We're surrounded

00:51:04.619 --> 00:51:11.539
by cement and steel. But let's let's go. We're

00:51:11.539 --> 00:51:16.739
going down the steps. And it's a very eerie feeling.

00:51:16.980 --> 00:51:19.860
Anybody who ever says they don't get nervous

00:51:19.860 --> 00:51:24.340
for an undercover role or contacts doesn't need

00:51:24.340 --> 00:51:26.820
to be doing it. Exactly. You need to be nervous.

00:51:27.539 --> 00:51:30.280
Yeah. And I'm, you know, I'm, I'm nervous. I

00:51:30.280 --> 00:51:33.119
don't know what to expect. What's going on. We've

00:51:33.119 --> 00:51:35.019
done thousands of dollars of business with these

00:51:35.019 --> 00:51:39.440
guys. They've indicated the smuggling coming

00:51:39.440 --> 00:51:47.250
in and What else are they into? And as we're

00:51:47.250 --> 00:51:52.070
going down the stairs, you hear, coming from

00:51:52.070 --> 00:51:56.309
the room, a Britney Spears song. What the hell

00:51:56.309 --> 00:52:00.309
is this? Well, it's getting even weirder at this

00:52:00.309 --> 00:52:03.489
point. And Cartwright's beside me and he looks

00:52:03.489 --> 00:52:06.170
over and he says, I've always wanted to go out

00:52:06.170 --> 00:52:12.519
like this. And I'm like, I just wanted to give

00:52:12.519 --> 00:52:15.340
him a big hug. You kind of read your thoughts,

00:52:15.500 --> 00:52:18.039
right? You guys are both like, Oh my gosh, is

00:52:18.039 --> 00:52:20.659
this the last time I'm going to talk to anybody?

00:52:21.099 --> 00:52:25.940
Exactly. But you know, it just gave me a moment

00:52:25.940 --> 00:52:28.940
of just, yeah, breathe easy. You know, we're

00:52:28.940 --> 00:52:31.800
doing this for a reason and try to have we got

00:52:31.800 --> 00:52:33.940
to try to have fun with it, too. Yeah. And it's

00:52:33.940 --> 00:52:36.199
probably okay. It's probably going to be okay.

00:52:36.500 --> 00:52:40.739
Yeah. Probably okay. And we get down there and

00:52:40.739 --> 00:52:43.119
there's a big Russian guy that we meet sitting

00:52:43.119 --> 00:52:45.639
at the table and we're the guest of the other

00:52:45.639 --> 00:52:48.500
two. So it's ultimately at the table. It's this

00:52:48.500 --> 00:52:52.559
big guy named Jan. It's our two Russians from

00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:57.739
New York and Dave and myself. And they begin

00:52:57.739 --> 00:53:01.400
to just bring vodka like it's water and then

00:53:01.400 --> 00:53:06.429
food and everything's brass and mirrors. where

00:53:06.429 --> 00:53:08.869
the Britney Spears thing come from. That comes

00:53:08.869 --> 00:53:11.570
from on the stage where a bunch of what we believe

00:53:11.570 --> 00:53:17.289
to be underage women of former Soviet countries

00:53:17.289 --> 00:53:21.929
that were probably smuggled in. They're working

00:53:21.929 --> 00:53:25.730
and being trafficked as part of something here.

00:53:26.750 --> 00:53:30.929
So that raises your hackles again. Things just

00:53:30.929 --> 00:53:35.760
aren't right. So ultimately we sit down and we're

00:53:35.760 --> 00:53:38.579
having just general conversation with Jan and

00:53:38.579 --> 00:53:44.559
they pretty quickly after after a few shots of

00:53:44.559 --> 00:53:48.280
vodka they pretty quickly come around to look

00:53:48.280 --> 00:53:50.559
here's the thing we know you're selling to these

00:53:50.559 --> 00:53:55.820
other guys in New York and they're like hey you

00:53:55.820 --> 00:54:00.840
know yeah we are but they reached out to us so

00:54:00.840 --> 00:54:05.139
we've got to make business and you know and You

00:54:05.139 --> 00:54:07.099
could die tomorrow and we're not gonna be able

00:54:07.099 --> 00:54:09.239
to we need somebody else to deal with, you know,

00:54:09.280 --> 00:54:12.280
it's it's just part of our business plan And

00:54:12.280 --> 00:54:16.460
as we're trying to smooth it over We're pushing

00:54:16.460 --> 00:54:21.079
back pretty hard, okay, and They were like at

00:54:21.079 --> 00:54:24.400
one point we will tell you who to sell it to

00:54:24.400 --> 00:54:28.539
And it's gonna be to us. Okay, and the instant

00:54:28.539 --> 00:54:32.699
reaction With that is no bullshit. You're you're

00:54:32.699 --> 00:54:34.619
not I mean you can try to but We're not going

00:54:34.619 --> 00:54:37.920
to do it that way. Wow. And it's getting louder

00:54:37.920 --> 00:54:40.539
and more escalated and unbeknownst to me and

00:54:40.539 --> 00:54:42.360
unbeknownst to Cartwright coming up behind us

00:54:42.360 --> 00:54:44.739
are the two goons in the damn sweatsuits again.

00:54:44.820 --> 00:54:49.159
Oh, shit. And all we could think about was turn

00:54:49.159 --> 00:54:51.539
around, look at them and, you know, what the

00:54:51.539 --> 00:54:53.219
hell moment. What is this shit all about? We're

00:54:53.219 --> 00:54:55.420
talking business and you got, you know, Igor

00:54:55.420 --> 00:54:59.820
and Gunzo here over my shoulder. What? This is

00:54:59.820 --> 00:55:07.619
bullshit. We'll just leave. And Ultimately, Jan,

00:55:08.159 --> 00:55:10.860
the big guy at the end of the table, puts his

00:55:10.860 --> 00:55:15.440
hand up, motions in them back and speaks Russian

00:55:15.440 --> 00:55:19.059
to them. And they came back and they come across

00:55:19.059 --> 00:55:21.340
to us and said, okay, you guys are all right.

00:55:21.760 --> 00:55:25.539
Just make sure we get the most of it. You stood

00:55:25.539 --> 00:55:29.019
your ground. You can do business with us. And

00:55:29.019 --> 00:55:31.159
there's gonna be a lot more business coming.

00:55:33.440 --> 00:55:36.539
Mind you, as I said, the cover team outside,

00:55:36.820 --> 00:55:38.719
they're not getting any transmission. Right.

00:55:38.719 --> 00:55:40.480
Oh yeah. You're down, you're down in a basement.

00:55:40.559 --> 00:55:43.719
That's not going to transmit. Nope. Yeah. And

00:55:43.719 --> 00:55:45.900
we were down there for, for seem like days, but

00:55:45.900 --> 00:55:49.920
it was, it was a few hours. And while that's

00:55:49.920 --> 00:55:52.940
going on the cover teams out on the street and

00:55:52.940 --> 00:55:57.639
there's other sweatsuit goons walking up and

00:55:57.639 --> 00:56:02.239
looking in the windows on the street of the vehicles.

00:56:02.510 --> 00:56:07.070
Oh boy. For anything out of sorts. Of course,

00:56:07.150 --> 00:56:08.909
uh, Dave and I weren't aware of this. You couldn't

00:56:08.909 --> 00:56:10.690
get a cell phone signal. I couldn't get anything.

00:56:10.989 --> 00:56:14.090
Um, back once again to ultimately, uh, Gary Phillips

00:56:14.090 --> 00:56:16.090
case agent was in control. He said, no, let's,

00:56:16.170 --> 00:56:21.329
let's let him go. Um, and I appreciate the faith

00:56:21.329 --> 00:56:24.650
and confidence he had in us. Um, and because

00:56:24.650 --> 00:56:26.750
you can imagine what was going through his mind.

00:56:26.789 --> 00:56:30.090
We lost this, we have this going on, uh, guys

00:56:30.090 --> 00:56:33.409
walking up and down the street and. very, very

00:56:33.409 --> 00:56:37.610
bizarre. Yeah, so so they're doing counter surveillance

00:56:37.610 --> 00:56:39.469
looking for they're looking for law enforcement.

00:56:40.030 --> 00:56:42.030
Yeah, this is a super this is a super dangerous

00:56:42.030 --> 00:56:45.530
situation because this has all the earmarks of

00:56:45.530 --> 00:56:52.769
organized crime, right? Yes. And and with that,

00:56:53.130 --> 00:56:55.989
that's always you know, that's in our mind more

00:56:55.989 --> 00:56:58.590
and more is And especially during that lunch,

00:56:58.690 --> 00:57:00.530
I feel like we got over this hurdle when they're

00:57:00.530 --> 00:57:02.190
like, Okay, but you guys are going to sell mostly

00:57:02.190 --> 00:57:06.269
to us. Right after that, they motion a guy comes

00:57:06.269 --> 00:57:11.809
out with a tray full of large blue tits, like,

00:57:11.909 --> 00:57:14.449
right? What's up? What's going on, guys? And

00:57:14.449 --> 00:57:19.230
they said, This is all Russian stuff. Beluga.

00:57:19.449 --> 00:57:22.869
And we're like, Oh, awesome. Man, you guys are

00:57:22.869 --> 00:57:26.210
rock stars. How are you able to get it in? And

00:57:26.199 --> 00:57:27.820
That's nothing we could have ever, of course,

00:57:28.079 --> 00:57:30.539
asked them at the beginning. Right. But how are

00:57:30.539 --> 00:57:32.340
you? How do you guys do this? They go, we have

00:57:32.340 --> 00:57:34.980
four years, we place orders, we have a steady

00:57:34.980 --> 00:57:38.420
source of them coming in. So we're like, wow,

00:57:38.519 --> 00:57:40.880
that this is a big win to us, because we're like,

00:57:41.079 --> 00:57:43.780
here comes, you know, this stuff into the country.

00:57:43.840 --> 00:57:45.860
And they're like, man, we can really get anything

00:57:45.860 --> 00:57:49.820
you guys want. By this time. By this time, Beluga

00:57:49.820 --> 00:57:52.219
is completely prohibited under CITES rules and,

00:57:52.440 --> 00:57:55.039
and certainly coming under ESA, although not

00:57:55.039 --> 00:57:57.280
quite yet. But CITES had shut down the trade

00:57:57.280 --> 00:58:01.639
on Beluga. Yeah. Yeah, the best I remember. And

00:58:01.639 --> 00:58:05.119
yeah, the only thing that was allowed was there

00:58:05.119 --> 00:58:08.519
was a personal baggage, baggage exception, which

00:58:08.519 --> 00:58:10.880
allowed you to think bring in like 250 grams

00:58:10.880 --> 00:58:13.920
or something like that. Small amount, basically,

00:58:14.179 --> 00:58:17.440
yeah, two tins per person. So there's a whole

00:58:17.440 --> 00:58:20.219
other topic of how they couriered stuff in using

00:58:20.219 --> 00:58:23.280
the exceptions. But yeah, OK. Yeah, exactly.

00:58:23.820 --> 00:58:25.460
And we're like, well, you know, if you guys are

00:58:25.460 --> 00:58:27.239
buying all of our stuff, what's the need for

00:58:27.239 --> 00:58:29.699
this? And they're like, the true Russians want

00:58:29.699 --> 00:58:32.980
this. They pay yearly for this. And we're like,

00:58:33.000 --> 00:58:35.059
well, what is the demand for all the paddlefish?

00:58:35.280 --> 00:58:37.960
Well, you know, because like we told them, you

00:58:37.960 --> 00:58:39.880
know, like, hey, we know some folks who could

00:58:39.880 --> 00:58:42.159
this could probably be sold as Russian. Yeah.

00:58:42.260 --> 00:58:46.289
And they're like, that's what we do. And we're

00:58:46.289 --> 00:58:48.150
like, oh, you do? Where do you make it? Or how

00:58:48.150 --> 00:58:49.510
do you do this? They're like, we do it in our

00:58:49.510 --> 00:58:53.309
basement. Yep. And they're like, we take what

00:58:53.309 --> 00:58:59.909
we buy from you. It goes into our tins and and

00:58:59.909 --> 00:59:03.190
we sell it all over to the Russian population

00:59:03.190 --> 00:59:07.289
and connoisseurs of the stuff. They think it's

00:59:07.289 --> 00:59:11.559
Russian. And I'm like. But Beluga is substantially

00:59:11.559 --> 00:59:13.400
larger. Well, what do you guys sell it as? And

00:59:13.400 --> 00:59:15.360
they're like, we sell it as Savruga. Savruga.

00:59:15.539 --> 00:59:17.400
So, you know, a little bit smaller. Yeah. And

00:59:17.400 --> 00:59:20.360
it was still the Russian product looked very

00:59:20.360 --> 00:59:24.119
similar to it. And so we're feeling very good

00:59:24.119 --> 00:59:26.119
at this point in time, because that was one of

00:59:26.119 --> 00:59:28.559
the the early bits of Intel that I neglected

00:59:28.559 --> 00:59:33.400
to mention earlier. That was that we think it's

00:59:33.400 --> 00:59:35.179
being sold as Russia, because, you know, the

00:59:35.179 --> 00:59:37.440
Russian stuff as a prohibition, like what we'd

00:59:37.440 --> 00:59:40.409
love to prove it. So we said to it and made a

00:59:40.409 --> 00:59:45.750
simple request. Could you guys send us some of

00:59:45.750 --> 00:59:47.309
the tents? We want to put them in the stores

00:59:47.309 --> 00:59:50.369
like a display of caviar things. Like, absolutely.

00:59:50.670 --> 00:59:52.909
And they sent us home with a bunch of their cans.

00:59:53.530 --> 00:59:58.550
Nice. They say Sevruga, but you can then test

00:59:58.550 --> 01:00:01.130
and find out it's actually a paddlefish row.

01:00:03.079 --> 01:00:05.739
best thing was where it would say product of

01:00:05.739 --> 01:00:11.420
Russia or product of Astrakhan or Astrakhan fisheries

01:00:11.420 --> 01:00:17.539
and malasol Russian low salt everything written

01:00:17.539 --> 01:00:20.260
in Cyrillic the picture of the sand or the salmon

01:00:20.260 --> 01:00:24.199
listen to me of the sturgeon it's all coming

01:00:24.199 --> 01:00:32.119
together nice and so as we begin to the relationship

01:00:33.630 --> 01:00:36.389
continues. And we ended up meeting the New York,

01:00:37.670 --> 01:00:39.409
the folks from New York, we ended up meeting

01:00:39.409 --> 01:00:43.190
them in LA, where we first met Ed and back to

01:00:43.190 --> 01:00:47.150
another, you know, amazing cover team. And the

01:00:47.150 --> 01:00:50.050
legwork that you did on your side, giving us

01:00:50.050 --> 01:00:53.030
the intel from, I think it was California Bureau

01:00:53.030 --> 01:00:55.590
of Justice that we were going into a mob joint

01:00:55.590 --> 01:00:57.170
where they used to watch people get the hell

01:00:57.170 --> 01:01:00.360
kicked out of them in the back. Yeah, so Exactly.

01:01:00.360 --> 01:01:03.739
We teamed up with a Russian speaking agent from

01:01:03.739 --> 01:01:07.159
the California Department of Justice. And yeah,

01:01:07.159 --> 01:01:09.880
just a side story. We will, I think we can, we

01:01:09.880 --> 01:01:11.880
have about 10 minutes left. But I think we can,

01:01:12.420 --> 01:01:14.320
we can finish up the story. I think in about

01:01:14.320 --> 01:01:17.539
10 minutes. Oh, this is a good story. I'm trying

01:01:17.539 --> 01:01:19.099
to think if we should break it into two. But

01:01:19.099 --> 01:01:21.880
I, I think we can, I think we can finish up what

01:01:21.880 --> 01:01:23.780
happened in about 10 minutes. Don't you think,

01:01:23.880 --> 01:01:29.599
John? Okay, cool. I think so. Anyway, Yeah, there.

01:01:29.920 --> 01:01:34.000
Yeah, there was a Russian area of there is a

01:01:34.000 --> 01:01:38.300
Russian area of kind of West Hollywood. And yeah,

01:01:38.880 --> 01:01:41.500
we found out that one of your target places here

01:01:41.500 --> 01:01:45.280
in West Hollywood was known to like people were

01:01:45.280 --> 01:01:47.519
getting beat up and thrown in the trunks of black

01:01:47.519 --> 01:01:49.480
Cadillacs and in the middle of the night and

01:01:49.480 --> 01:01:51.820
driven off. And nobody ever knew what happened

01:01:51.820 --> 01:01:54.199
to those people. So yeah, this was not Yeah.

01:01:54.599 --> 01:01:57.059
And in fact, I don't know if you were about to

01:01:57.059 --> 01:01:59.769
tell this but Didn't these Russians at some point

01:01:59.769 --> 01:02:04.469
in New York think about offing you? Well, we

01:02:04.469 --> 01:02:07.030
discovered it with the recordings and the heated

01:02:07.030 --> 01:02:11.690
argument As I was talking about when we were

01:02:11.690 --> 01:02:14.130
insisting that we'll sell to who we want to sell

01:02:14.130 --> 01:02:20.369
to and it's getting loud we had transcribers

01:02:20.369 --> 01:02:25.250
and Translators from that were Department of

01:02:25.250 --> 01:02:29.440
State certified and they would take the recordings

01:02:29.440 --> 01:02:34.260
and translate the Russian. Okay. So during that

01:02:34.260 --> 01:02:36.860
heated conversation in New York, the one that

01:02:36.860 --> 01:02:39.800
ultimately the big guy, you know, suppressed

01:02:39.800 --> 01:02:42.920
and said, Okay, everything's cool. We were playing

01:02:42.920 --> 01:02:44.760
it back because we wanted to know what they were

01:02:44.760 --> 01:02:47.579
talking about in negotiating. Yeah, right. Right

01:02:47.579 --> 01:02:49.420
in front of you. But they're talking about right

01:02:49.420 --> 01:02:52.280
in front of you, but in Russian. Okay. Exactly.

01:02:52.860 --> 01:02:56.019
What did they say? So And one of the things,

01:02:56.019 --> 01:02:58.900
of course, that came back in the translation

01:02:58.900 --> 01:03:01.440
was maybe we should just kill these guys and

01:03:01.440 --> 01:03:05.440
take the business. And this was about we got

01:03:05.440 --> 01:03:09.260
the recordings back a few weeks later or the

01:03:09.260 --> 01:03:12.320
transcriptions back a few weeks later. And I

01:03:12.320 --> 01:03:14.400
remember Gary calling me, Phillips. He's like,

01:03:14.400 --> 01:03:17.000
hey, I just want to share this with you. This

01:03:17.000 --> 01:03:20.760
is the this is what they're hearing at this portion.

01:03:21.400 --> 01:03:24.570
And you know of course my initial reaction I'm

01:03:24.570 --> 01:03:27.349
like oh sons of bitches you know and frustrated

01:03:27.349 --> 01:03:30.010
and like all right now now they're really gonna

01:03:30.010 --> 01:03:35.530
get it yeah yeah at the same time I mean that

01:03:35.530 --> 01:03:38.150
brings it home right right in front of you these

01:03:38.150 --> 01:03:41.190
guys are talking about potentially killing you

01:03:41.190 --> 01:03:44.489
yeah you know it is a bit of a side thing and

01:03:44.489 --> 01:03:47.969
you can relate to this this is one of those situations

01:03:47.969 --> 01:03:51.590
that people especially a lot of administrators

01:03:51.960 --> 01:03:55.260
they don't understand what their officers are

01:03:55.260 --> 01:03:57.260
being put through, what their agents are going

01:03:57.260 --> 01:04:02.679
through and sadly a lot of times these are the

01:04:02.679 --> 01:04:04.800
ones that are making policies and they won't

01:04:04.800 --> 01:04:07.659
draw from the experience of those who were in

01:04:07.659 --> 01:04:12.300
the trenches so to speak in doing it and not

01:04:12.300 --> 01:04:16.019
until very recently has it become a normal thing

01:04:16.019 --> 01:04:20.780
for Some UK law enforcement US law enforcement

01:04:20.780 --> 01:04:23.199
to have their undercovers evaluated psychologically

01:04:23.199 --> 01:04:27.039
from time to time, right? I wish that had been

01:04:27.039 --> 01:04:29.860
available when I was on this thing is they probably

01:04:29.860 --> 01:04:31.539
would have locked me up in the nervous hospital,

01:04:31.539 --> 01:04:37.239
but You know, it's uh, you know, this goes also

01:04:37.239 --> 01:04:42.059
to this thing I think a lot of officers and also

01:04:42.059 --> 01:04:44.179
Supervisors people in higher in the chain of

01:04:44.179 --> 01:04:47.440
command they they assume that these people are

01:04:47.440 --> 01:04:49.059
not that dangerous because they're just dealing

01:04:49.059 --> 01:04:51.440
in wildlife. Certainly, you know, prosecutors

01:04:51.440 --> 01:04:54.460
and judges sometimes have that bias, where it's

01:04:54.460 --> 01:04:57.019
just wildlife. But it's not it's money. It's

01:04:57.019 --> 01:05:00.059
money. And it's freedom. It's their liberty.

01:05:00.119 --> 01:05:02.679
And yeah, these guys, these guys stood to make

01:05:02.679 --> 01:05:06.199
a lot of money in the caviar business. And if

01:05:06.199 --> 01:05:09.659
they're prone to violence anyway, they're not

01:05:09.659 --> 01:05:11.659
going to care about a couple of guys from Tennessee

01:05:11.659 --> 01:05:14.690
who are trying to make You know business problems

01:05:14.690 --> 01:05:20.530
for them. Yeah, exactly and so that really That

01:05:20.530 --> 01:05:23.809
hit home hit hard. Yeah, so we had to be extra

01:05:23.809 --> 01:05:26.750
mindful in our in our future dealings with them

01:05:26.750 --> 01:05:31.590
and you know a specific instance flying out to

01:05:31.590 --> 01:05:35.070
LA for this and We had from you received the

01:05:35.070 --> 01:05:38.670
information that you learned about the location

01:05:38.670 --> 01:05:42.610
being organized crime questionable activities

01:05:42.610 --> 01:05:45.809
from California Department of Justice, right?

01:05:46.010 --> 01:05:48.630
So we had that in mind and I pick up a USA Today

01:05:48.630 --> 01:05:50.849
at the airport to read on the plane in the flight

01:05:50.849 --> 01:05:55.110
to LA and sure as hell in the second page of

01:05:55.110 --> 01:06:00.590
it is Mafia MAF I YA hoods take on America and

01:06:00.590 --> 01:06:02.630
it's talking about the neighborhoods where we

01:06:02.630 --> 01:06:05.030
were where we were working. Yeah, I'm like, well,

01:06:05.130 --> 01:06:08.510
this is a maybe Kurt Raid is going to get his

01:06:08.510 --> 01:06:14.030
wish yet. And so nonetheless, it leads us to

01:06:14.030 --> 01:06:17.610
LA and in the business in LA, because we want

01:06:17.610 --> 01:06:20.190
to establish that knowledge. And these people

01:06:20.190 --> 01:06:24.210
that, you know, especially dealing with foreigners,

01:06:24.449 --> 01:06:26.170
whether it's traditional Chinese medicine or

01:06:26.170 --> 01:06:28.070
whatever the case is, I didn't understand what

01:06:28.070 --> 01:06:30.989
they were saying. I didn't understand. And it's

01:06:30.989 --> 01:06:35.519
an easy out. It's incumbent upon us to establish

01:06:35.519 --> 01:06:38.880
that knowledge and come to a way that we show

01:06:38.880 --> 01:06:43.139
that they understand. And the individual in LA,

01:06:43.199 --> 01:06:46.099
in his business, there's the tenants from New

01:06:46.099 --> 01:06:48.760
York that he's selling his Russian caviar. And

01:06:48.760 --> 01:06:51.840
he's telling us about how it all works. And I

01:06:51.840 --> 01:06:54.340
said, you just got to be careful. And I pulled

01:06:54.340 --> 01:06:56.980
him aside and I said, just be careful. Don't

01:06:56.980 --> 01:06:58.900
become anybody that you're getting it from us

01:06:58.900 --> 01:07:01.519
or anything at all like that. And one of my favorite

01:07:01.519 --> 01:07:03.989
recordings of that guy, he says, I'll tell them

01:07:03.989 --> 01:07:05.809
I make it in my full. What are they going to

01:07:05.809 --> 01:07:13.050
do? And I'm like, okay, you're locked in. So

01:07:13.050 --> 01:07:16.409
but just, you know, trying to get knowledge from

01:07:16.409 --> 01:07:19.670
everybody to be careful is that how's all this?

01:07:19.730 --> 01:07:22.869
So you were able to know that's okay. You were

01:07:22.869 --> 01:07:24.929
you were able to draw out those incriminating

01:07:24.929 --> 01:07:27.449
statements from everybody in New York and LA.

01:07:28.510 --> 01:07:35.130
Yes. Nice. And we had we had two uh people left

01:07:35.130 --> 01:07:37.269
on the list that we wanted to get to before the

01:07:37.269 --> 01:07:39.949
end of the operation okay and we've not been

01:07:39.949 --> 01:07:43.170
able to deal with them with our existing covers

01:07:43.170 --> 01:07:47.329
so cover number three become a commercial fisherman

01:07:47.329 --> 01:07:50.449
poses a commercial fisherman these are my eggs

01:07:50.449 --> 01:07:54.269
okay and the next thing um new year's eve gary

01:07:54.269 --> 01:07:56.409
phillips and i end up in a snowstorm in the middle

01:07:56.409 --> 01:08:00.289
of illinois meeting russian with the hand tattoos

01:08:00.289 --> 01:08:04.289
and all the crap um who we later learned was

01:08:04.289 --> 01:08:07.250
on the radar of the FBI in Chicago from longest

01:08:07.250 --> 01:08:13.429
time. And for his various nefarious acts in life.

01:08:14.250 --> 01:08:17.250
And it was interesting with him, his English

01:08:17.250 --> 01:08:19.729
was not good. And now I'm talking as a redneck.

01:08:20.350 --> 01:08:22.890
So third cover, this thing, I'm trying to sell

01:08:22.890 --> 01:08:26.470
him eggs that I caught. And Gary and I are in

01:08:26.470 --> 01:08:28.869
the vehicle with him. Like, don't tell anybody

01:08:28.869 --> 01:08:31.829
where this came from. Alex, the season's closed.

01:08:32.450 --> 01:08:35.310
um I can't go to jail like you know all the things

01:08:35.310 --> 01:08:38.989
yep and he would just look and say no talk and

01:08:38.989 --> 01:08:41.189
I'm like no no shit I'm telling you be careful

01:08:41.189 --> 01:08:45.010
and about the third time I thought he was going

01:08:45.010 --> 01:08:47.430
to rip his steering wheel off and he said I said

01:08:47.430 --> 01:08:52.270
no talk I'm like okay I think he gets it so yeah

01:08:52.270 --> 01:08:56.529
it's not that's not exactly great incriminating

01:08:56.529 --> 01:08:59.810
statements from him. Yeah. Two words, right?

01:08:59.989 --> 01:09:05.930
Don't talk. Yeah, we sent an agent in Chicago,

01:09:06.289 --> 01:09:09.989
Dave Kirby, went to the guy's business in Chicago,

01:09:10.210 --> 01:09:13.930
bought some caviar that they had in for sale.

01:09:14.310 --> 01:09:17.310
We had Kirby simply ask him, what am I buying

01:09:17.310 --> 01:09:19.829
here? My wife, this is our anniversary or some

01:09:19.829 --> 01:09:22.270
story along those lines. I want something special.

01:09:22.470 --> 01:09:24.310
Like, no, this is Russian. This is all Russian

01:09:24.310 --> 01:09:29.050
caviar. Perfect. And what he ended up purchasing,

01:09:30.109 --> 01:09:33.069
um, we tested and it was our paddlefish. Nice.

01:09:33.210 --> 01:09:37.029
Okay. So that's how we had to sure that guy up

01:09:37.029 --> 01:09:39.689
on the other end, bringing in another, another

01:09:39.689 --> 01:09:42.510
agent in the support throughout this case from

01:09:42.510 --> 01:09:44.550
agents all over the country that wire the cover

01:09:44.550 --> 01:09:50.279
teams or, um, search for teams. whatever the

01:09:50.279 --> 01:09:53.220
case may be. I remember having in the Nashville

01:09:53.220 --> 01:09:55.140
Fish and Wildlife Service at any given time,

01:09:55.159 --> 01:09:57.880
we'd have eight agents in there listening to

01:09:57.880 --> 01:10:00.000
recordings at the end of the operation because

01:10:00.000 --> 01:10:04.659
I couldn't keep up with the reports. So we were

01:10:04.659 --> 01:10:08.420
so grateful for the service involvement and support

01:10:08.420 --> 01:10:11.859
in so many ways with it. But one thing I amazingly

01:10:11.859 --> 01:10:15.520
learned though from you buddy was writing the

01:10:15.520 --> 01:10:19.100
most comprehensive affidavits ever. this lesson

01:10:19.100 --> 01:10:23.319
I learned from that newcomer and, you know, paid

01:10:23.319 --> 01:10:26.859
off the rest of my career. And ultimately those

01:10:26.859 --> 01:10:30.060
templates or boilerplates for language and for

01:10:30.060 --> 01:10:33.260
writing warrants are now used in several states

01:10:33.260 --> 01:10:36.439
for murder cases and their search warrants. But

01:10:36.439 --> 01:10:40.880
I attribute this to you, man. And I'm so grateful

01:10:40.880 --> 01:10:43.699
for that because there's a science and an art

01:10:43.699 --> 01:10:46.460
to writing those things and getting an AUSA to

01:10:46.460 --> 01:10:48.829
buy into it. Why did I did I write the warrants

01:10:48.829 --> 01:10:50.829
for out in LA or something? I don't even remember.

01:10:52.289 --> 01:10:58.029
We've sent you the PC. And there was lots of

01:10:58.029 --> 01:11:01.449
questions, of course, from your USA working with

01:11:01.449 --> 01:11:06.130
our USA and formats that had to be in in LA and

01:11:06.130 --> 01:11:08.630
all of that in just so I remember the one guy

01:11:08.630 --> 01:11:12.539
I think it was like 100 pages or so. And Yeah,

01:11:12.539 --> 01:11:15.300
but that was all you're doing. I don't even remember

01:11:15.300 --> 01:11:17.880
that I didn't remember that I even wrote the

01:11:17.880 --> 01:11:20.500
warrants on the LA cases, but that's possible.

01:11:21.000 --> 01:11:25.439
Probably I mean, I think I do recall that I was

01:11:25.439 --> 01:11:30.020
fairly new, but I had. So it's likely that that

01:11:30.020 --> 01:11:31.680
stuff would have been assigned to me, but I do

01:11:31.680 --> 01:11:33.899
remember I was assigned to make one of the arrests

01:11:33.899 --> 01:11:36.939
on out in LA and was my very first arrest as

01:11:36.939 --> 01:11:40.560
a federal agent. So I know out in LA we hooked

01:11:40.560 --> 01:11:42.939
up. We hooked up three people were charged out

01:11:42.939 --> 01:11:46.300
in LA. How did this all wrap up? What were the

01:11:46.300 --> 01:11:48.859
what kind of cases did you make and against who?

01:11:50.840 --> 01:11:52.859
So ultimately, we're going to set it done. We

01:11:52.859 --> 01:11:55.739
had well over 100 fishermen with violations.

01:11:56.520 --> 01:11:59.420
Those were state violations. We had to let the

01:11:59.420 --> 01:12:01.680
statute of limitations ride on that because it

01:12:01.680 --> 01:12:05.380
was one year. Right. If we couldn't get them

01:12:05.380 --> 01:12:07.699
looped into the conspiracy side of things, we

01:12:07.699 --> 01:12:09.970
just. weren't going to. So we said, this will

01:12:09.970 --> 01:12:12.329
be a strong enough deterrent when their buyers

01:12:12.329 --> 01:12:16.050
get prosecuted. Exactly. Out of all of the, I

01:12:16.050 --> 01:12:20.430
think it was 19 defendants that were high tier

01:12:20.430 --> 01:12:25.289
traffickers was what we ended up prosecuting.

01:12:25.489 --> 01:12:28.579
We had one trial lasted about two weeks. Okay,

01:12:28.579 --> 01:12:32.100
and that was on the original family that started

01:12:32.100 --> 01:12:35.100
it all royal off caviar out of Chattanooga, Tennessee

01:12:35.100 --> 01:12:37.640
guy by the name of Hale Okay, he since passed

01:12:37.640 --> 01:12:42.760
on I believe but him and his family Trial and

01:12:42.760 --> 01:12:45.539
what was interesting throughout all the search

01:12:45.539 --> 01:12:47.819
warrants we began to see on the dealers of America

01:12:47.819 --> 01:12:52.180
They would record false names. So false records

01:12:52.180 --> 01:12:54.739
under Lacey act we began to attribute that and

01:12:54.739 --> 01:12:58.260
tie that into it and They were blatant about

01:12:58.260 --> 01:13:02.399
it, like Mickey Mouse sold us this. We found

01:13:02.399 --> 01:13:04.659
in the industry that people would pimp their

01:13:04.659 --> 01:13:06.500
daughters out and then hold it over the head

01:13:06.500 --> 01:13:10.220
of a married fisherman. We found in the industry

01:13:10.220 --> 01:13:15.380
from the Russians, we began to get high -end

01:13:15.380 --> 01:13:17.340
counterfeit goods that they were also dealing

01:13:17.340 --> 01:13:20.079
with in New York. And we were swapping that for

01:13:20.079 --> 01:13:24.899
caviar as well. The things that they were coming

01:13:24.899 --> 01:13:29.210
up with, at the time, the predecessor of Homeland

01:13:29.210 --> 01:13:31.210
Security, I think it was they were called Customs.

01:13:31.210 --> 01:13:33.729
Yeah. So everything would go to the Customs lab

01:13:33.729 --> 01:13:36.869
and Customs lab came back with some most high

01:13:36.869 --> 01:13:41.109
quality stuff that we'd ever seen. So it was

01:13:41.109 --> 01:13:43.829
great. We brought in other agencies. We had a

01:13:43.829 --> 01:13:46.289
tremendous AUSAs and we had support all over

01:13:46.289 --> 01:13:48.029
the country from people when it came time to

01:13:48.029 --> 01:13:53.699
take it down. At the I think the final everybody

01:13:53.699 --> 01:13:56.939
either was found guilty or pled guilty. Nice.

01:13:57.779 --> 01:14:00.680
Except for one family member who played an incidental

01:14:00.680 --> 01:14:03.119
role and they didn't, we weren't able to get

01:14:03.119 --> 01:14:05.600
him tied into it much. Okay. So he wasn't even

01:14:05.600 --> 01:14:07.380
charged, but otherwise you had a hundred percent

01:14:07.380 --> 01:14:10.659
conviction rates. Yeah. He was charged in all

01:14:10.659 --> 01:14:13.439
fairness. He was charged. And I think he may

01:14:13.439 --> 01:14:16.399
have got some sort of diversion situation or

01:14:16.399 --> 01:14:18.819
something. I, I can't remember what it was, but

01:14:18.819 --> 01:14:22.579
everybody else got hit with a felony Lazy Axe.

01:14:23.479 --> 01:14:28.119
We, of course, we explored Rico. We met elements

01:14:28.119 --> 01:14:32.159
for Rico. We were looking at wire fraud, all

01:14:32.159 --> 01:14:35.420
of the things. But ultimately, with the attorneys,

01:14:35.600 --> 01:14:37.739
they had some high power ones. The guys in LA,

01:14:38.060 --> 01:14:41.239
they had a guy who was an attorney, ESPN's attorney

01:14:41.239 --> 01:14:46.949
during the O .J. Simpson. Trial and he was their

01:14:46.949 --> 01:14:49.430
commentator. So, you know, he's coming back to

01:14:49.430 --> 01:14:51.850
Tennessee because we had venue that was the offended

01:14:51.850 --> 01:14:57.109
venue and we had a great a USA who was a he was

01:14:57.109 --> 01:15:03.550
an agency USA prior to his time he was a A state

01:15:03.550 --> 01:15:06.390
investigator and then he ultimately became an

01:15:06.390 --> 01:15:13.130
a USA. So he was great to work with and After

01:15:13.130 --> 01:15:15.170
this was all over, did you notice a difference?

01:15:16.329 --> 01:15:18.710
Was there a change? Was there less pressure on

01:15:18.710 --> 01:15:20.770
the paddlefish? What did you see was the outcome?

01:15:22.529 --> 01:15:24.989
So the dealers, yes, for a period of time, they

01:15:24.989 --> 01:15:28.909
were severely limited because some of them went

01:15:28.909 --> 01:15:31.510
to prison. I think we had 24 months on the hails,

01:15:31.930 --> 01:15:36.229
the federal lockup. Lots of probation, dealers,

01:15:36.409 --> 01:15:39.470
things like that. So things calmed way down.

01:15:40.180 --> 01:15:42.359
Really interesting thing that did happen. I heard

01:15:42.359 --> 01:15:44.659
about it after the fact on the Ohio River in

01:15:44.659 --> 01:15:47.000
Indiana a couple of Russians bonafide Russians

01:15:47.000 --> 01:15:52.520
showed up trying to buy from people and This

01:15:52.520 --> 01:15:56.500
is in another state But the people wouldn't deal

01:15:56.500 --> 01:15:58.180
with them. They're like, no, no, no, you're under

01:15:58.180 --> 01:16:00.840
covers interesting. That's what you want the

01:16:00.840 --> 01:16:05.250
rollover effect that we had All in all, things

01:16:05.250 --> 01:16:08.350
went really quiet for a period of time, and then

01:16:08.350 --> 01:16:12.430
it began to experience another resurgence, where

01:16:12.430 --> 01:16:16.130
we prosecuted a few more people overtly, of course,

01:16:16.130 --> 01:16:19.369
at that time. But all said and done, I think

01:16:19.369 --> 01:16:22.409
there was 19 defendants, most of them out of

01:16:22.409 --> 01:16:25.609
New York. We had the dealers out of the South.

01:16:27.130 --> 01:16:32.449
And I feel like what we were able to uncover

01:16:32.449 --> 01:16:37.859
was Well, definitely improved regulations, improved

01:16:37.859 --> 01:16:40.520
reporting, more stringent accountability for

01:16:40.520 --> 01:16:46.720
the industry. And that was a direct result of

01:16:46.720 --> 01:16:49.640
the operation and what we knew and what we learned.

01:16:50.260 --> 01:16:53.060
Ultimately, the search warrants in New York and

01:16:53.060 --> 01:16:55.699
in LA, they recovered those same tens that were

01:16:55.699 --> 01:17:00.560
full of paddlefish. In New York, just like they

01:17:00.560 --> 01:17:03.199
said in their basement, there were freezers full.

01:17:03.960 --> 01:17:06.060
of smuggled stuff that you could oftentimes tell

01:17:06.060 --> 01:17:10.479
by the cans without chip paint, but on the Russian

01:17:10.479 --> 01:17:12.340
ones, but then they'd have the duplicates and

01:17:12.340 --> 01:17:14.159
the labels that were made right there in New

01:17:14.159 --> 01:17:18.359
York. Yep. So what we went into the operation

01:17:18.359 --> 01:17:21.220
with the goal to understand what's happening

01:17:21.220 --> 01:17:25.800
with this, is it being falsely labeled? Is it

01:17:25.800 --> 01:17:29.020
just being sold as paddle fish? And they laid

01:17:29.020 --> 01:17:32.319
it out for us so much so I would get calls, this

01:17:32.319 --> 01:17:34.960
is like cocaine here. We need more. Can you get

01:17:34.960 --> 01:17:36.619
more? I'm like, it's the middle of the summer.

01:17:37.300 --> 01:17:42.159
They're not even grabbing right now. So the demand

01:17:42.159 --> 01:17:49.300
was incredible. And along with that, a number

01:17:49.300 --> 01:17:54.880
of the individuals post -conviction or throughout

01:17:54.880 --> 01:17:59.869
the procedural process began to cooperate. Yeah,

01:18:00.130 --> 01:18:03.409
and open eyes to other other things. Yeah, I

01:18:03.409 --> 01:18:08.489
was gonna say your case actually led to the development

01:18:08.489 --> 01:18:11.369
of some informants in Los Angeles that I worked

01:18:11.369 --> 01:18:15.630
those informants for years after you did your

01:18:15.630 --> 01:18:20.630
takedowns on this case in 2003 for and yeah,

01:18:20.670 --> 01:18:22.529
I worked those informants for years and it led

01:18:22.529 --> 01:18:25.869
to multiple other caviar cases in the Los Angeles

01:18:25.869 --> 01:18:28.770
area and on the West Coast involving Russians

01:18:28.770 --> 01:18:30.949
out here. So it's a lot of times just a matter

01:18:30.949 --> 01:18:34.189
of whack -a -mole. We whack down a certain organization

01:18:34.189 --> 01:18:36.369
for a while, and it takes the pressure off the

01:18:36.369 --> 01:18:38.369
species, and then it comes back, and we got to

01:18:38.369 --> 01:18:41.909
whack them again. But Sean, I think this is an

01:18:41.909 --> 01:18:44.090
incredible story, and I think there's more to

01:18:44.090 --> 01:18:47.630
talk about with regard to caviar, not just powerfish,

01:18:48.130 --> 01:18:50.329
but the American sturgeon and the sturgeon that

01:18:50.329 --> 01:18:52.869
occur in the Columbia River as well as the Sacramento

01:18:52.869 --> 01:18:55.779
River. And there are some other state and federal

01:18:55.779 --> 01:18:58.039
officers who've worked on caviar cases before.

01:18:58.380 --> 01:19:00.560
There's more to talk about, and I'm sure we will

01:19:00.560 --> 01:19:03.420
revisit this on future episodes. Tell us a little

01:19:03.420 --> 01:19:06.720
bit, just briefly, what is WETA doing? And if

01:19:06.720 --> 01:19:09.340
anybody wants to learn more or donate, you can

01:19:09.340 --> 01:19:12.880
go to wetatrain .org and see the website. But

01:19:12.880 --> 01:19:14.260
tell us a little bit about what you're doing

01:19:14.260 --> 01:19:17.810
there in Zambia. Absolutely. We were founded

01:19:17.810 --> 01:19:22.850
in 2018. We ultimately evolved into a 501c3 nonprofit

01:19:22.850 --> 01:19:27.829
organization. My wife, Steph, who has been in

01:19:27.829 --> 01:19:30.210
law enforcement for 20 plus years in the state

01:19:30.210 --> 01:19:32.689
of Colorado, is a wildlife law enforcement and

01:19:32.689 --> 01:19:35.529
a wildlife biologist. She's our executive director.

01:19:35.949 --> 01:19:37.989
I'm director of training and investigations.

01:19:39.590 --> 01:19:43.270
And over that time, we have trained over 3 ,000,

01:19:43.369 --> 01:19:46.470
whether it be rangers, investigators, prosecutors,

01:19:46.609 --> 01:19:50.689
or magistrates in about, I think, eight countries

01:19:50.689 --> 01:19:54.210
in Africa, along with Ecuador in South America.

01:19:54.649 --> 01:19:59.130
And in addition to that, we're, you know, trying

01:19:59.130 --> 01:20:03.390
to line up new places all the time. We've got,

01:20:03.529 --> 01:20:06.010
I'll put our team up against any organization

01:20:06.010 --> 01:20:09.569
out there. We've got, of course, you, your international

01:20:09.569 --> 01:20:12.130
law enforcement advisor, the experience that

01:20:12.130 --> 01:20:15.930
you have internationally. along with federal

01:20:15.930 --> 01:20:18.470
law and just your tactics and your approach are

01:20:18.470 --> 01:20:20.630
so genuine. We're so grateful to have you on

01:20:20.630 --> 01:20:25.069
the team. And we have a couple other team members,

01:20:25.770 --> 01:20:27.750
Walter Duran, former Fish and Wildlife Service

01:20:27.750 --> 01:20:32.109
agent, and Jim Karani, one of Africa's first

01:20:32.109 --> 01:20:35.029
wildlife lawyers. That's right. So he's a Kenyan

01:20:35.029 --> 01:20:37.770
becoming Dr. Jim in New York City right now.

01:20:37.869 --> 01:20:41.529
But, you know, we're a small, passionate and

01:20:41.529 --> 01:20:44.279
dedicated team. That's I mean, it's amazing considering

01:20:44.279 --> 01:20:47.380
how you know your size have trained that many

01:20:47.380 --> 01:20:50.579
people and that sort of time it's incredible,

01:20:50.579 --> 01:20:53.439
you know internationally training is something

01:20:53.439 --> 01:20:56.840
that's really needed and Valued especially when

01:20:56.840 --> 01:20:58.439
it comes from people who know what they're doing

01:20:58.439 --> 01:21:01.680
which you guys do So, you know, thank you for

01:21:01.680 --> 01:21:04.520
doing that again. It's wildlife investigators

01:21:04.520 --> 01:21:07.840
training alliance and you can visit the website

01:21:07.840 --> 01:21:11.710
at we to train org Hey, Sean, I really appreciate

01:21:11.710 --> 01:21:14.949
you being with us today. That'll do it for this

01:21:14.949 --> 01:21:18.050
episode of Nature's Secret Service. I want to

01:21:18.050 --> 01:21:20.789
thank Sean Karn so much for your time. I appreciate

01:21:20.789 --> 01:21:23.569
it. Thanks, everybody for tuning in for a long

01:21:23.569 --> 01:21:27.390
one. And we'll see you next time. Nature's Secret

01:21:27.390 --> 01:21:30.229
Service is written and produced by me, Ed Newcomer,

01:21:30.310 --> 01:21:33.270
and is co -produced by the DHTV team here at

01:21:33.270 --> 01:21:35.390
California State University Dominguez Hills.

01:21:35.609 --> 01:21:37.789
Follow us on social media and connect with us

01:21:37.789 --> 01:21:40.050
online at naturessecretservice .com.