WEBVTT 00:00:00.010 --> 00:00:02.450 If you want to learn more about the topics of 00:00:02.450 --> 00:00:06.129 today's episode, visit the podcast website at 00:00:06.129 --> 00:00:09.109 naturessecretservice .com. Thanks for listening. 00:00:34.740 --> 00:00:37.520 Okay, people, listen up. Here we go. My name 00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:40.280 is Ed Newcomer. I'm your host of Nature's Secret 00:00:40.280 --> 00:00:42.200 Service, the podcast that puts you in the room 00:00:42.200 --> 00:00:44.780 with the men and women of wildlife law enforcement. 00:00:45.579 --> 00:00:48.399 Today, our guest is Steve Furr, joining us from 00:00:48.399 --> 00:00:52.320 his home in Washington State. Steve was a special 00:00:52.320 --> 00:00:54.520 agent for the U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service, 00:00:54.979 --> 00:00:57.619 originally stationed in Sacramento, California, 00:00:58.060 --> 00:01:00.479 but later transferred to a single agent station 00:01:00.479 --> 00:01:04.150 up in Olympia, Washington. He served many years 00:01:04.150 --> 00:01:06.930 as a, not just a special agent, but also as a 00:01:06.930 --> 00:01:08.989 regional and national firearms instructor for 00:01:08.989 --> 00:01:11.189 the service, which is a great help to all of 00:01:11.189 --> 00:01:15.569 us agents. And he was the recipient of the very 00:01:15.569 --> 00:01:19.430 prestigious Guy Bradley Award in, I believe 2017, 00:01:19.549 --> 00:01:24.180 right Steve? That's correct. The Guy Bradley 00:01:24.180 --> 00:01:28.000 Award is a recognition of a long career of outstanding 00:01:28.000 --> 00:01:30.939 service and is named after Guy Bradley, who was 00:01:30.939 --> 00:01:32.840 the first wildlife officer killed in the line 00:01:32.840 --> 00:01:37.239 of duty back in 1905. Prior to becoming a Fish 00:01:37.239 --> 00:01:39.659 and Wildlife Service Special Agent, Steve served 00:01:39.659 --> 00:01:41.859 as a wildlife officer for the state of Washington 00:01:41.859 --> 00:01:45.319 for many years. So I'm super happy to have Steve 00:01:45.319 --> 00:01:47.120 here. Steve and I worked together in the same 00:01:47.120 --> 00:01:50.159 region for a number of years, and we know each 00:01:50.159 --> 00:01:52.000 other quite well. But Steve, thank you so much 00:01:52.000 --> 00:01:53.620 for being on the podcast. It's great to have 00:01:53.620 --> 00:01:57.579 you here. Yeah, absolutely. It's good to be here. 00:01:57.659 --> 00:02:03.040 You're looking good. You know, you and I both 00:02:03.040 --> 00:02:05.900 worked in what was known as Region 1 at the time, 00:02:06.019 --> 00:02:09.080 which included California, Oregon, Washington, 00:02:09.419 --> 00:02:12.219 Idaho, Hawaii, and all of the Pacific Islands. 00:02:13.419 --> 00:02:17.780 We always had such a great camaraderie among 00:02:17.780 --> 00:02:20.860 all of the agents in that region. And I think 00:02:20.860 --> 00:02:23.699 part of that is because throughout that region, 00:02:24.379 --> 00:02:26.960 there were a lot of similarities in some of the 00:02:26.960 --> 00:02:30.120 cases we did, or at least in terms of kind of 00:02:30.120 --> 00:02:33.419 the high profile of the West Coast in terms of 00:02:33.419 --> 00:02:35.699 the overall Fish and Wildlife Service mission 00:02:35.699 --> 00:02:38.319 with regard to law enforcement. So we were always 00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:41.909 kind of under the same or we were on the same 00:02:41.909 --> 00:02:44.069 hot plate in terms of, there was a lot of attention 00:02:44.069 --> 00:02:46.389 on the cases that were handled on the West Coast. 00:02:48.129 --> 00:02:50.509 I don't know if you, I think you and I share 00:02:50.509 --> 00:02:54.469 a, we share a mutual acquaintance, a wildlife 00:02:54.469 --> 00:02:56.689 officer up in the state of Washington named Greg 00:02:56.689 --> 00:03:01.189 Haw. And Greg said something to me once that 00:03:01.189 --> 00:03:03.090 really struck me, because I always knew Greg 00:03:03.090 --> 00:03:05.710 as a very hard charging, you know, uniformed 00:03:05.710 --> 00:03:07.870 wildlife officer. He was always out there chasing 00:03:07.870 --> 00:03:10.740 poachers in the middle of the night. working 00:03:10.740 --> 00:03:12.800 his, you know, working his butt off on weekends 00:03:12.800 --> 00:03:15.020 and holidays. But he said something to me once 00:03:15.020 --> 00:03:17.780 that really struck me. And he said, you know, 00:03:17.780 --> 00:03:19.939 if I could do my career over again and start 00:03:19.939 --> 00:03:23.060 over, I would have focused a lot more time on 00:03:23.060 --> 00:03:27.360 habitat cases. And that I agreed with that from 00:03:27.360 --> 00:03:29.699 my perspective as an agent. I wish I would have. 00:03:29.879 --> 00:03:32.000 And I don't know. What are your thoughts on that? 00:03:33.400 --> 00:03:36.560 Well, you know, as a new agent starting out, 00:03:36.580 --> 00:03:39.159 you know, you're looking for direction on you 00:03:39.159 --> 00:03:41.960 know what to do right i mean what's important 00:03:41.960 --> 00:03:46.340 what do they want me to do and as as you know 00:03:46.340 --> 00:03:50.319 we had priorities that were spelled out um you 00:03:50.319 --> 00:03:54.639 know in the service manual and you know if you 00:03:54.639 --> 00:03:58.500 if you ever cracked it open and read it you know 00:03:58.500 --> 00:04:01.919 the number one priority was endangered species 00:04:01.919 --> 00:04:07.099 uh habitat destruction so you know but they're 00:04:07.069 --> 00:04:10.969 Very unattractive cases, you know, they're they're 00:04:10.969 --> 00:04:15.270 always political You know, nobody likes doing 00:04:15.270 --> 00:04:19.889 them Try selling one of those to a US attorney, 00:04:19.889 --> 00:04:24.350 right? There's there's just all kinds of problems 00:04:24.350 --> 00:04:28.290 with them So it was always ironic to me that 00:04:28.290 --> 00:04:31.410 you know, it was you know This thing first mentioned 00:04:31.410 --> 00:04:36.110 on levels of priority But very few of them ever 00:04:36.110 --> 00:04:38.750 ever got done, right? I mean, I think you'd agree 00:04:38.750 --> 00:04:42.069 with me I mean just there's really just probably 00:04:42.069 --> 00:04:45.290 been a handful of criminal cases over over the 00:04:45.290 --> 00:04:48.550 years, you know that have been done on Habitat 00:04:48.550 --> 00:04:51.329 destruction of it, you know endangered species 00:04:51.329 --> 00:04:54.629 habitat. So yeah Yeah, that is true. And you 00:04:54.629 --> 00:04:57.730 know, in fact on my way over here to the studio 00:04:57.730 --> 00:04:59.990 today I looked up I went online and I looked 00:04:59.990 --> 00:05:02.069 at the Office of Law Enforcement webpage for 00:05:02.069 --> 00:05:04.160 the Fish and Wildlife Service and I looked for 00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:08.399 the priorities. And even right now, the priorities 00:05:08.399 --> 00:05:10.860 for the Office of Law Enforcement, number one, 00:05:10.980 --> 00:05:13.139 I'll read it to you. I got it here on my phone. 00:05:14.000 --> 00:05:17.220 It says, number one priority is unlawful commercial 00:05:17.220 --> 00:05:21.180 activities and or activities involving habitat 00:05:21.180 --> 00:05:24.040 destruction affecting wild populations of fish, 00:05:24.459 --> 00:05:27.160 wildlife, or plants listed as endangered or threatened. 00:05:27.480 --> 00:05:30.379 That's like the number one priority for the Office 00:05:30.379 --> 00:05:33.500 of Law Enforcement. And yet, you're right. I 00:05:33.500 --> 00:05:36.100 mean, you hardly ever hear about those cases. 00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:38.480 I think in my whole 20 -year career, I worked 00:05:38.480 --> 00:05:45.439 on less than half a dozen for sure. And of those, 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:50.860 I think maybe one of them got prosecuted. And 00:05:50.860 --> 00:05:54.290 they're complicated to work. They're complicated 00:05:54.290 --> 00:05:59.810 to explain to a prosecutor or a jury. They are 00:05:59.810 --> 00:06:06.550 rife with political landmines, right? And yeah, 00:06:06.689 --> 00:06:08.389 they're just, they can be very controversial 00:06:08.389 --> 00:06:10.370 because a lot of times they interfere with, you 00:06:10.370 --> 00:06:13.329 know, quote unquote, private land ownership use 00:06:13.329 --> 00:06:17.610 and things like that. Yep, development. And how 00:06:17.610 --> 00:06:21.910 often do you have bodies? Well, yes. That's a 00:06:21.910 --> 00:06:24.649 key most of the time, you know, you're just relying 00:06:24.649 --> 00:06:28.569 on science and that you know, these species were 00:06:28.569 --> 00:06:32.730 there or this is the type of habitat and You 00:06:32.730 --> 00:06:36.269 know, I was lucky on a few of them that it was 00:06:36.269 --> 00:06:39.230 well documented that you know, the species was 00:06:39.230 --> 00:06:42.129 there, you know, and that was really key because 00:06:42.620 --> 00:06:45.420 you know, try going to an assistant U .S. attorney 00:06:45.420 --> 00:06:47.980 with, well, we think they're there, you know? 00:06:48.139 --> 00:06:51.100 I mean, the habitat looks good. So, you know, 00:06:51.220 --> 00:06:53.199 believe us, they're, you know, they're there. 00:06:53.839 --> 00:06:56.100 And they're just, they're just not going to buy 00:06:56.100 --> 00:06:58.980 that. It's just not clean enough, you know? Right. 00:06:59.100 --> 00:07:01.720 And that's where this relationship between the 00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:05.819 law enforcement side, the agent, and the ecological 00:07:05.819 --> 00:07:07.680 services side of the Fish and Wildlife Service, 00:07:07.699 --> 00:07:10.759 where the biologists are, is so critical because... 00:07:12.330 --> 00:07:15.089 So often, they're not even in the same offices 00:07:15.089 --> 00:07:17.930 most of the time. They're separate offices. And 00:07:17.930 --> 00:07:20.550 they don't communicate very well and very often. 00:07:20.750 --> 00:07:23.629 And so the biologists, they really have no idea 00:07:23.629 --> 00:07:26.490 what the agent's going to need when they show 00:07:26.490 --> 00:07:29.930 up on a habitat destruction case. And if that 00:07:29.930 --> 00:07:32.250 documentation has been done before, that these 00:07:32.250 --> 00:07:35.050 animals are there, they were there, and they 00:07:35.050 --> 00:07:37.930 are there, and they were there up until this. 00:07:38.679 --> 00:07:41.800 land was destroyed, then you have a much better 00:07:41.800 --> 00:07:44.040 shot at making a case. But if that documentation 00:07:44.040 --> 00:07:48.699 is not there, a prosecutor is just going to see 00:07:48.699 --> 00:07:52.600 reasonable doubt everywhere, right? And the service 00:07:52.600 --> 00:07:57.120 doesn't have the resources to document every 00:07:57.120 --> 00:08:01.899 available habitat for all these species. They 00:08:01.899 --> 00:08:05.480 never will. That would be a massive undertaking. 00:08:06.199 --> 00:08:08.959 Some of the hot spots for these species, they 00:08:08.959 --> 00:08:11.360 have good data and they know where they are and 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:13.959 they've detected them there for years and years. 00:08:15.560 --> 00:08:21.850 But a lot of times it's just not there. And there's 00:08:21.850 --> 00:08:25.329 managers in those offices with those biologists 00:08:25.329 --> 00:08:29.629 that are leery of getting their people involved 00:08:29.629 --> 00:08:32.429 in these cases. They know it's going to be a 00:08:32.429 --> 00:08:36.230 time sucker, right? It's going to just take them 00:08:36.230 --> 00:08:39.669 away from their duties and you're going to own 00:08:39.669 --> 00:08:43.110 them for a while because they might need to write 00:08:43.110 --> 00:08:45.710 you a take statement or be out there in the field 00:08:45.710 --> 00:08:51.080 with you. There's just problem after problem 00:08:51.080 --> 00:08:53.899 with these. They're just not, they're not easy, 00:08:53.919 --> 00:08:57.279 and you really have to have some resolve to push 00:08:57.279 --> 00:09:01.039 one of these things through. Yeah, 100%. I have 00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:03.600 two stories on that really quick. One was, you 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:06.419 know, when I was an agent in Southern California, 00:09:07.059 --> 00:09:09.580 we used to try to go up to the ecological services 00:09:09.580 --> 00:09:11.879 officer, at least talk to him on a Zoom call 00:09:11.879 --> 00:09:14.899 or something, and do some training for them on 00:09:14.899 --> 00:09:18.539 what is it that... you need to show to make a 00:09:18.539 --> 00:09:20.440 criminal case if something if criminal cases 00:09:20.440 --> 00:09:25.259 ever, you know, in play, the biologists need 00:09:25.259 --> 00:09:27.659 to know what they need to document and how in 00:09:27.659 --> 00:09:30.799 order to set you the agent up for success, right? 00:09:31.779 --> 00:09:34.320 Right, right, right. And then the other one is 00:09:34.320 --> 00:09:36.460 to your point about, you know, selling a case 00:09:36.460 --> 00:09:40.259 to a prosecutor. Agent Aaron Dean and I once 00:09:40.259 --> 00:09:43.320 worked really hard on a habitat destruction case 00:09:43.320 --> 00:09:46.039 that involved San Diego fairy shrimp, which are 00:09:46.039 --> 00:09:48.980 endangered. But you know, they're a tiny little 00:09:48.980 --> 00:09:52.159 animal that you're not going to find a body, 00:09:52.200 --> 00:09:55.899 right? We actually put together a great case. 00:09:56.100 --> 00:09:58.019 We actually got a confession from the person 00:09:58.019 --> 00:10:01.259 who who destroyed the habitat and they admitted 00:10:01.259 --> 00:10:03.460 that they knew that there were fairy shrimp there. 00:10:04.299 --> 00:10:06.539 Took it to a prosecutor with a confession in 00:10:06.539 --> 00:10:09.220 hand. And the first we walked into the prosecutor's 00:10:09.220 --> 00:10:11.879 office in the first words out of his mouth were, 00:10:12.320 --> 00:10:14.299 so what is this, some sort of little mud bug 00:10:14.299 --> 00:10:16.899 that you were dealing with? And that just like 00:10:16.899 --> 00:10:19.399 set the whole attitude for the case and he never 00:10:19.399 --> 00:10:21.899 prosecuted it. Even with a confession in hand, 00:10:21.919 --> 00:10:24.120 he would not file charges on that case because 00:10:24.120 --> 00:10:27.860 it wasn't sexy enough, you know? Well, and they're 00:10:27.860 --> 00:10:30.539 misdemeanors, right? Exactly. That's the other 00:10:30.539 --> 00:10:34.139 thing. Yeah. I mean, unless you find a false 00:10:34.139 --> 00:10:37.919 document or obstruction or something like that, 00:10:37.919 --> 00:10:42.690 you know, it's just It's a misdemeanor and, you 00:10:42.690 --> 00:10:46.950 know, they're busy, right? These aren't, you 00:10:46.950 --> 00:10:49.389 know, something they're dying to... So, you know, 00:10:49.450 --> 00:10:51.750 a lot of times, you know, the service wanted 00:10:51.750 --> 00:10:56.529 us to go civil. But we really didn't have a good 00:10:56.529 --> 00:11:00.230 civil process. That wasn't strong in the service. 00:11:00.909 --> 00:11:04.690 And if we had a real strong civil process, it 00:11:04.690 --> 00:11:06.470 might have been more attractive, because you're 00:11:06.470 --> 00:11:08.809 going to do all this work like it's a criminal 00:11:08.809 --> 00:11:12.950 case anyway. I almost never tried to push anything 00:11:12.950 --> 00:11:17.389 civil, because from my perspective, because the 00:11:17.389 --> 00:11:19.669 Endangered Species Act maximum penalty is only 00:11:19.669 --> 00:11:22.590 a Class A misdemeanor. I at least wanted that 00:11:22.590 --> 00:11:25.090 criminal conviction on the defendant's record, 00:11:25.230 --> 00:11:29.769 right? Because the punishment for criminal versus 00:11:29.769 --> 00:11:31.250 civil wasn't going to be that different. It was 00:11:31.250 --> 00:11:34.809 mainly going to be money. It was going to be 00:11:34.809 --> 00:11:37.169 money. But I wanted that criminal conviction 00:11:37.169 --> 00:11:39.990 on their record. So I very rarely went. If I 00:11:39.990 --> 00:11:41.710 was going to put in the time that you and I are 00:11:41.710 --> 00:11:45.049 talking about, I went criminal always. And if 00:11:45.049 --> 00:11:46.870 you couldn't make that, just forget about it. 00:11:48.830 --> 00:11:51.009 When I talk to the public, whenever I talk to 00:11:51.009 --> 00:11:52.450 them, I'm sure this is true for you, too. And 00:11:52.450 --> 00:11:54.710 you tell them that the maximum penalty under 00:11:54.710 --> 00:11:57.470 the Endangered Species Act is a Class A misdemeanor. 00:11:57.830 --> 00:12:00.289 Maximum time in jail is one year. And what is 00:12:00.289 --> 00:12:06.250 that, $100 ,000 fine, I think? It's shocking. 00:12:06.429 --> 00:12:09.490 You kill the last tiger in the world, and the 00:12:09.490 --> 00:12:13.199 maximum penalty would be one year in jail. Yeah, 00:12:13.199 --> 00:12:15.840 right, right. Anyway, we could go on about that 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:18.360 all day. I want to talk to you about a particular 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:21.659 area in the Sacramento district where you worked 00:12:21.659 --> 00:12:24.299 when you were an agent there in Sacramento called 00:12:24.299 --> 00:12:26.799 the Susan Marsh. Can you tell us about that? 00:12:26.820 --> 00:12:30.639 What is it? Where is it? Yeah, this is Susan 00:12:30.639 --> 00:12:34.120 Marsh. So I started out in Sacramento. I worked 00:12:34.120 --> 00:12:37.679 a year there in Iraq office, resident agent in 00:12:37.679 --> 00:12:42.690 charge. And after that year in the Sacramento 00:12:42.690 --> 00:12:46.289 office, I decided to take the Burlingame office, 00:12:46.350 --> 00:12:49.610 which was over in the Bay Area, near the airport 00:12:49.610 --> 00:12:53.870 there in South San Francisco. And so that was 00:12:53.870 --> 00:12:57.169 part of the area I worked, was the Sassoon Marsh. 00:12:58.570 --> 00:13:03.929 It's known as the largest brackish water marsh 00:13:03.929 --> 00:13:08.600 on the West Coast. Most of it has been diked 00:13:08.600 --> 00:13:13.919 off to tidal flow originally for grazing and 00:13:13.919 --> 00:13:16.080 agriculture, but then they turned it into all 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:21.139 these duck clubs and there's literally like 158 00:13:21.139 --> 00:13:24.659 duck clubs that are part of the Sassoon Marsh. 00:13:25.620 --> 00:13:29.120 And it's just a bunch of walled off duck ponds 00:13:29.120 --> 00:13:32.179 to the bay, right? From the bay. So explain to 00:13:32.179 --> 00:13:34.000 our listeners who might not be familiar, what 00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:38.700 is a duck club? What is that for? Well, a duck 00:13:38.700 --> 00:13:42.379 club is just usually a group of guys or a family 00:13:42.379 --> 00:13:45.220 that has gotten together and purchased land. 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:50.080 And in the case where we're talking about it, 00:13:50.440 --> 00:13:53.529 they... They do what they call manage these wetlands. 00:13:53.669 --> 00:13:56.870 They're called manage wetlands for waterfowl. 00:13:56.889 --> 00:14:01.230 And they try to raise and lower water levels 00:14:01.230 --> 00:14:04.769 in order to promote certain types of plants to 00:14:04.769 --> 00:14:08.470 grow that are conducive to bringing ducks in 00:14:08.470 --> 00:14:13.309 for hunting. And so a lot of this marsh, you've 00:14:13.309 --> 00:14:15.470 got to remember, a lot of this marsh has been 00:14:15.470 --> 00:14:19.570 diked off for many, many years. All the animals 00:14:19.570 --> 00:14:24.110 and the plants that were associated with a natural 00:14:24.110 --> 00:14:29.909 marsh, a flowing marsh or tidal wetlands, that's 00:14:29.909 --> 00:14:32.370 been part of the reason there's so many listed 00:14:32.370 --> 00:14:35.929 species in the San Francisco Bay areas, because 00:14:35.929 --> 00:14:39.929 a lot of these tidal wetlands have all been drained, 00:14:40.269 --> 00:14:44.929 diked for salt production, agriculture. you know, 00:14:45.149 --> 00:14:48.330 development, whatever. And so very few of these, 00:14:49.129 --> 00:14:53.370 very little of this tidal marsh remains. I have 00:14:53.370 --> 00:14:57.710 a couple numbers for you. So if you want to get 00:14:57.710 --> 00:14:59.929 into that a little bit, but historically there 00:14:59.929 --> 00:15:04.870 were 60 ,000 acres of tidal wetlands and now 00:15:04.870 --> 00:15:08.870 there's less than 8 ,000. So that gives you an 00:15:08.870 --> 00:15:13.200 idea how little tidal wetlands And a lot of places 00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:17.220 like up here in the Northwest, we are breaching 00:15:17.220 --> 00:15:20.740 levees and bringing the tidal flow back in, mostly 00:15:20.740 --> 00:15:23.799 for salmon. And it's the same thing down there. 00:15:24.279 --> 00:15:27.059 These are really important areas for juvenile 00:15:27.059 --> 00:15:31.320 salmon. And they're really trying to breach a 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:34.259 lot of these levees and bring them back into 00:15:34.259 --> 00:15:38.620 tidal marshes. So there are certain words that 00:15:38.620 --> 00:15:41.809 I can never pronounce. This marshes name is one 00:15:41.809 --> 00:15:49.690 of them even Soon it's spelled funny so when 00:15:49.690 --> 00:15:52.450 I my brain is there certain words I cannot say 00:15:52.450 --> 00:15:54.289 that I will never say on this podcast because 00:15:54.289 --> 00:16:01.149 I cannot pronounce them So tell us what what 00:16:01.149 --> 00:16:04.090 kind of species are there that what this marsh 00:16:04.090 --> 00:16:07.230 is important to what species Yeah, there's a 00:16:07.230 --> 00:16:11.039 number of listed species, you know A number of 00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:13.940 fish, the delta smelt that's been in the news 00:16:13.940 --> 00:16:18.559 lately, that's an important one that's just tanked. 00:16:19.580 --> 00:16:24.860 There's green sturgeon, there's Chinook salmon, 00:16:25.980 --> 00:16:30.419 California clapper rail, salt marsh harvest mouse, 00:16:31.059 --> 00:16:35.100 a couple of plants, California lease turn. I 00:16:35.100 --> 00:16:37.940 can go on and on. I think I've probably covered 00:16:38.379 --> 00:16:40.700 three quarters of them, but there's probably 00:16:40.700 --> 00:16:44.259 some I'm missing. So because these are all species 00:16:44.259 --> 00:16:46.720 that depend on tidal marshes, you know, they've 00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:50.419 all just really tanked over the years. And you 00:16:50.419 --> 00:16:52.259 say listed, you're talking about listed under 00:16:52.259 --> 00:16:54.919 the Endangered Species Act, like the smelt and 00:16:54.919 --> 00:16:58.669 the clapper rail for sure. Yeah endangered or 00:16:58.669 --> 00:17:01.110 threatened, you know one at one of the two and 00:17:01.110 --> 00:17:03.610 you know, California clapper rails They used 00:17:03.610 --> 00:17:06.109 to market hunt those things, you know, I mean, 00:17:06.170 --> 00:17:08.809 you know around the turn of the century I mean, 00:17:08.829 --> 00:17:11.869 they were going to restaurants in San Francisco, 00:17:11.869 --> 00:17:14.670 you know, there were you know that that those 00:17:14.670 --> 00:17:18.549 kinds of numbers and Some of the stuff I've looked 00:17:18.549 --> 00:17:21.130 up lately. I mean, they think there's 1200 of 00:17:21.130 --> 00:17:25.190 them left Yeah, see and that fits perfectly with 00:17:25.190 --> 00:17:27.750 that number one highest priority for the Office 00:17:27.750 --> 00:17:30.329 of Law Enforcement. You've got habitat where 00:17:30.329 --> 00:17:33.289 critically endangered species are living and 00:17:33.289 --> 00:17:37.730 yeah, that's a high priority. Yeah, so you're 00:17:37.730 --> 00:17:40.410 given that as a high priority. You you arrive 00:17:40.410 --> 00:17:43.450 in this new duty station. You're under the Sacramento 00:17:43.450 --> 00:17:45.789 Rack District, but you're there in Burlingame. 00:17:46.069 --> 00:17:49.829 What? Tell us how how did you get involved with 00:17:49.829 --> 00:17:53.170 the marsh? What what happened? Well, you know, 00:17:53.269 --> 00:17:55.230 it's it's there's some duck hunting that goes 00:17:55.230 --> 00:17:58.269 on there it's not like it used to be in the 70s 00:17:58.269 --> 00:18:01.309 and a lot of that is because the ducks have shifted, 00:18:01.309 --> 00:18:03.990 you know to all the rice in the Central Valley 00:18:03.990 --> 00:18:07.750 and So these guys that own these clubs, you know, 00:18:07.750 --> 00:18:09.910 they're really scratching all the time to try 00:18:09.910 --> 00:18:16.230 to make things better, you know and and so Originally 00:18:16.230 --> 00:18:22.009 my partner and I at the time Todd we we started 00:18:22.009 --> 00:18:24.309 going out and looking at the marsh, just trying 00:18:24.309 --> 00:18:29.190 to get an idea of who's who in the zoo, and what 00:18:29.190 --> 00:18:33.630 kind of practices are going on there. At that 00:18:33.630 --> 00:18:39.170 point, the way the federal baiting regulations 00:18:39.170 --> 00:18:41.829 were structured is you couldn't mow anything 00:18:41.829 --> 00:18:46.690 that had a seed on it. It was just prohibited. 00:18:47.490 --> 00:18:53.400 All your mowing you had to do before Any kind 00:18:53.400 --> 00:18:56.359 of seed production, even if it was a native plant, 00:18:56.819 --> 00:19:00.880 happened with the plant. There was a lot of mowing 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:03.200 going on in the marsh, and we weren't looking 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:05.880 at it as a huge deal, but we were trying to get 00:19:05.880 --> 00:19:08.839 our handle around what was going on out there, 00:19:08.859 --> 00:19:12.180 and if there were guys baiting with outside crops. 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:15.640 and that kind of stuff and we really weren't 00:19:15.640 --> 00:19:18.859 even focused or I wasn't at the time on endangered 00:19:18.859 --> 00:19:21.900 species issues because I just newly arrived, 00:19:22.339 --> 00:19:26.619 really didn't know what was happening. So my 00:19:26.619 --> 00:19:29.519 rack at the time, the resident agent in charge, 00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:34.700 he gave me a list of some names of some people 00:19:34.700 --> 00:19:38.900 to go talk to that would give me some intel on 00:19:38.900 --> 00:19:43.289 possibly who the poachers were. you know, what 00:19:43.289 --> 00:19:47.109 kinds of bad things were going on. And of course, 00:19:47.130 --> 00:19:50.190 you know, I had port duties too, you know, with 00:19:50.190 --> 00:19:53.150 import -export, but this was kind of my recreational 00:19:53.150 --> 00:19:57.450 activity on weekends. And, you know, I'm a hunter, 00:19:57.509 --> 00:20:00.450 as you know, big duck hunter, so I love the marsh. 00:20:02.529 --> 00:20:06.230 And so one of the people he had top of the list 00:20:06.230 --> 00:20:10.450 was the executive director for the Sassoon Resource 00:20:10.450 --> 00:20:14.559 Conservation District. which was, you know, like 00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:17.740 a water district that was in charge of the Sassoon 00:20:17.740 --> 00:20:21.740 Marsh and all the duck clubs. And they were the 00:20:21.740 --> 00:20:24.420 ones that consulted with the Corps and got the 00:20:24.420 --> 00:20:27.119 Corps permit for all the activities that they 00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:29.819 wanted to do in the marsh. That's the Army Corps 00:20:29.819 --> 00:20:31.799 of Engineers, right? That controls how those 00:20:31.799 --> 00:20:35.359 dikes work and all that, yeah? Yep, all the... 00:20:35.359 --> 00:20:38.200 And so lots of regulations, as you can imagine, 00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:42.970 so... SRCD was formed, Sassoon Resource Conservation 00:20:42.970 --> 00:20:45.910 District, is to deal with all the permitting, 00:20:46.329 --> 00:20:51.210 deal with the 158 dug clubs. Cow Fish and Game 00:20:51.210 --> 00:20:54.309 has a huge presence there. They have a big wildlife 00:20:54.309 --> 00:20:59.130 area, Grizzly Island Wildlife Area. And so SRCD 00:20:59.130 --> 00:21:04.950 had a small staff. biologist and then this executive 00:21:04.950 --> 00:21:07.690 director that I was, you know, ended up wanting 00:21:07.690 --> 00:21:10.509 to meet with, you know. He's introduced to you 00:21:10.509 --> 00:21:12.730 as a possible, you know, source of great information 00:21:12.730 --> 00:21:16.430 about what's going on, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. 00:21:16.750 --> 00:21:18.890 Like, you know, I'm, you know, he's going to, 00:21:19.230 --> 00:21:21.150 you know, I'm going to find out all about, you 00:21:21.150 --> 00:21:23.609 know, all the bad guys doing bad things in the 00:21:23.609 --> 00:21:28.519 marsh. We set up an appointment with this individual, 00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:30.740 and I'm going to keep his name out of it because 00:21:30.740 --> 00:21:34.480 there's no reason at this point. He's deceased. 00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:42.220 We can talk about him. So anyway, we decided 00:21:42.220 --> 00:21:45.380 to go out there, and they actually share a building 00:21:45.380 --> 00:21:49.000 out on the cow fishing game wildlife headquarters. 00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:52.160 There's buildings out there and shops and everything, 00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:56.119 and we meet with them out in his office. and 00:21:56.119 --> 00:21:58.359 we start chit -chatting about one thing or the 00:21:58.359 --> 00:22:02.160 other. And I can tell right away, I'm like, so 00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:06.039 this is my boss's, you know, good source of information. 00:22:06.099 --> 00:22:08.980 Cause you know, you're getting the body language 00:22:08.980 --> 00:22:12.440 automatically, right? That he is not happy with 00:22:12.440 --> 00:22:15.619 these feds. And he just, you know, he is like, 00:22:15.640 --> 00:22:18.099 what are these guys up to? You know, a couple 00:22:18.099 --> 00:22:21.779 of young bucks, you know? And so we started talking. 00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:23.819 You're out there with your partner, Todd Eckhart, 00:22:23.980 --> 00:22:30.089 right? We're out there with Todd. We start talking 00:22:30.089 --> 00:22:34.289 about marsh practices and who's doing what. He 00:22:34.289 --> 00:22:37.789 starts telling us, well, we need to mow out there 00:22:37.789 --> 00:22:41.069 because it's really important for water circulation 00:22:41.069 --> 00:22:44.089 when we flood these ponds, if there's vegetation 00:22:44.089 --> 00:22:46.869 in the way. Well, prior to that, Todd and I had 00:22:46.869 --> 00:22:51.549 been out in the marsh. We could, we witnessed 00:22:51.549 --> 00:22:54.869 this one individual going out with a tractor, 00:22:55.750 --> 00:22:58.269 with a brush hog, you know, a big mower on it. 00:22:58.549 --> 00:23:01.130 And all he was doing is going from one patch 00:23:01.130 --> 00:23:04.269 of nut grass to the other, which was this naturally 00:23:04.269 --> 00:23:07.630 occurring, it's called alkali bull rush or nut 00:23:07.630 --> 00:23:10.910 grass. And he was going from one big patch to 00:23:10.910 --> 00:23:13.990 the next mowing and spreading the seed that this 00:23:13.990 --> 00:23:17.980 thing stuff produces. Right. Yeah. So I'm trying 00:23:17.980 --> 00:23:21.019 to remember the conversation, so I kind of called 00:23:21.019 --> 00:23:24.200 bullshit on what he was saying there. You know, 00:23:24.220 --> 00:23:27.720 I think I said something along the lines of, 00:23:27.960 --> 00:23:30.099 well, you know, we were watching this guy mow, 00:23:30.099 --> 00:23:32.420 and it looked like all he was doing was going 00:23:32.420 --> 00:23:35.660 from one patch of nut grass to the other, spreading 00:23:35.660 --> 00:23:39.579 seed before he flooded it. Right. Which would 00:23:39.579 --> 00:23:42.559 be, as you described earlier, that essentially 00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:45.359 is baiting that field to draw ducks in, right? 00:23:46.200 --> 00:23:49.700 Yeah, was back in the day right before they changed 00:23:49.700 --> 00:23:52.680 the ranks, you know, so we had a one of my previous 00:23:52.680 --> 00:23:55.740 guests in an earlier episode was cash reefer 00:23:55.740 --> 00:23:58.680 who worked in Louisiana. He talked a lot about 00:23:58.680 --> 00:24:01.880 the baiting regulations and why it's illegal. 00:24:02.759 --> 00:24:05.140 So hopefully, hopefully people listen to that 00:24:05.140 --> 00:24:07.460 episode. They know what baiting is and why it's 00:24:07.460 --> 00:24:10.579 why it's illegal when you're hunting ducks. But 00:24:10.579 --> 00:24:14.279 anyway, OK, so you're just challenging this guy's 00:24:14.279 --> 00:24:17.720 statement about the importance of mowing. Yeah. 00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:20.579 And it's important to know that regs have changed. 00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:23.000 So, you know, native plants, you can do that. 00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:25.279 But when we were having this discussion, it was 00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:29.440 still against the regulations, right? And so, 00:24:29.460 --> 00:24:32.180 you know, we weren't there to make a huge deal 00:24:32.180 --> 00:24:34.640 out of it, but, you know, as agents, you know, 00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:37.680 you got to call bullshit on bullshit, right? 00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:41.599 And so I just, I just mentioned this to them, 00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:46.660 you know, that what we'd seen and The guy just 00:24:46.660 --> 00:24:49.440 got beet red in the face. And I mean, this is 00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:53.980 the executive director of a government entity, 00:24:54.220 --> 00:24:56.799 right? And we're on cow fishing game. I'm kind 00:24:56.799 --> 00:24:59.220 of thinking we're going to form a relationship 00:24:59.220 --> 00:25:01.819 of some sort here, and it's going to be good. 00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:08.250 He turned beet red, stood up on his desk. or, 00:25:08.250 --> 00:25:10.289 you know, humped over his desk there, looked 00:25:10.289 --> 00:25:12.490 me right in the eye, came closer, looked me in 00:25:12.490 --> 00:25:14.309 the eye, and he says, I'm gonna do everything 00:25:14.309 --> 00:25:20.109 I can to get your ass out of this marsh. This 00:25:20.109 --> 00:25:22.829 is our first meeting. You know, we're only into 00:25:22.829 --> 00:25:27.809 this thing 10 minutes, you know? And so I just 00:25:27.809 --> 00:25:30.549 said, well, I guess we're done here, you know? 00:25:31.589 --> 00:25:35.529 And Todd's over, you know, just shaking his head 00:25:35.529 --> 00:25:39.170 and. And we just walked out and said, wow, that 00:25:39.170 --> 00:25:43.569 was something. What have we kicked over here? 00:25:43.569 --> 00:25:46.529 Exactly. You know what I mean? And in the detective 00:25:46.529 --> 00:25:48.509 business, when you run into somebody with that 00:25:48.509 --> 00:25:50.529 kind of attitude, kind of gives you a clue that 00:25:50.529 --> 00:25:52.890 there might be some illegal activity afoot, right? 00:25:53.839 --> 00:25:57.559 Yeah, yeah, and you know in hindsight when we 00:25:57.559 --> 00:25:59.640 when we go through the rest of the story You 00:25:59.640 --> 00:26:02.440 can see why this guy did what he did, you know, 00:26:02.440 --> 00:26:05.759 I mean he was in charge of everything Suddenly 00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:10.380 here come a couple feds He knows endangered species 00:26:10.380 --> 00:26:15.019 are at the top of our list of priorities At the 00:26:15.019 --> 00:26:17.200 time it really didn't even occur to me. I thought 00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:20.319 this was just like stay out of our duck clubs, 00:26:20.319 --> 00:26:24.859 you know and We don't want to be worked by you. 00:26:24.920 --> 00:26:28.579 We're on a state facility. We don't need you 00:26:28.579 --> 00:26:32.279 out here checking us. So this is interesting 00:26:32.279 --> 00:26:35.240 too, because in his role, anytime there's an 00:26:35.240 --> 00:26:38.640 endangered species in habitat, there has to be 00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:40.880 what's called a habitat conservation plan or 00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:44.839 an HCP, right? Yeah. And this guy, in his role, 00:26:45.500 --> 00:26:48.200 what was his relationship to the HCP there on 00:26:48.200 --> 00:26:53.220 the marsh? Well, he's the keeper of the endangered 00:26:53.220 --> 00:26:56.579 species. He's the one that's negotiating the 00:26:56.579 --> 00:26:59.519 permit with the Corps of Engineers for what they 00:26:59.519 --> 00:27:03.240 can and can't do. He's supposed to be the enforcer 00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:07.599 because he signed the Corps permit that allowed 00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:11.140 everything to happen on that marsh, what dredging 00:27:11.140 --> 00:27:15.569 was allowed to happen. you know, a whole host 00:27:15.569 --> 00:27:17.829 of activities out there. So pretty intimately 00:27:17.829 --> 00:27:19.990 familiar with what animals are there and what 00:27:19.990 --> 00:27:23.349 the rules are. Yeah. That's all they do. It's 00:27:23.349 --> 00:27:25.970 all they do. So great knowledge. Absolutely. 00:27:26.309 --> 00:27:28.630 Yeah. That's what we're going to get, you know, 00:27:28.630 --> 00:27:32.069 great. It doesn't get any better than that. So 00:27:32.069 --> 00:27:35.930 what, after that meeting, now you're kind of, 00:27:36.069 --> 00:27:38.789 your focus is even maybe more on the marsh. What 00:27:38.789 --> 00:27:41.869 happens next after that, after the meeting? Well, 00:27:41.910 --> 00:27:45.259 what really, you know, so So Todd and I, we went 00:27:45.259 --> 00:27:48.980 out and made some, there was an agent up north 00:27:48.980 --> 00:27:53.140 in Chico who used to work that area. Okay. And 00:27:53.140 --> 00:27:55.500 you know who I'm talking about there. You know, 00:27:55.579 --> 00:27:58.539 he was involved in one of your cases prior to 00:27:58.539 --> 00:28:01.240 you being involved. I think the John Mendoza. 00:28:02.140 --> 00:28:07.200 Yeah. And so John had some really good contacts 00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:09.859 there and he was feeding us information on, you 00:28:09.859 --> 00:28:12.640 know, some some good over limits that were happening 00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:15.259 out there in the marsh and I think I'll just 00:28:15.259 --> 00:28:18.660 tell this story real quick because it was it's 00:28:18.660 --> 00:28:21.420 a small group right everybody knows each other 00:28:21.420 --> 00:28:23.799 so when somebody gets pinched for an over limit 00:28:23.799 --> 00:28:26.440 right it's just gonna it's gonna spread like 00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:30.880 wildfire yeah and Todd and I sat on an individual 00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:35.079 and the information was right on you know he's 00:28:35.079 --> 00:28:37.480 out shooting double limits every day you know 00:28:37.480 --> 00:28:41.859 that's what he does he kills 14 The limit was 00:28:41.859 --> 00:28:45.940 seven. He brings half in at one time and then 00:28:45.940 --> 00:28:47.920 goes out and gets the rest of the birds when 00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:52.019 the coast is clear. We watched them, the better 00:28:52.019 --> 00:28:58.440 part of the day, kill 14 green winged teal. We 00:28:58.440 --> 00:29:02.940 came in by boat. These places are real difficult 00:29:02.940 --> 00:29:06.619 to get into. The government bought me a great 00:29:06.619 --> 00:29:10.170 16 -foot lunge. And I used to run around those 00:29:10.170 --> 00:29:12.329 channels and they couldn't keep you out because 00:29:12.329 --> 00:29:14.549 there was a lot of channels and if you knew what 00:29:14.549 --> 00:29:18.410 you were doing, you could go anywhere. And so 00:29:18.410 --> 00:29:23.309 we came in by boat, watched him kill 14. And 00:29:23.309 --> 00:29:27.970 what was so amazing to me is he brought his legal 00:29:27.970 --> 00:29:30.750 limit in. We contacted him where he came into 00:29:30.750 --> 00:29:34.279 the clubhouse there with seven birds. We immediately 00:29:34.279 --> 00:29:36.119 just said, hey, we're not going to beat around 00:29:36.119 --> 00:29:38.220 the bush. Where's the other seven? We've been 00:29:38.220 --> 00:29:40.920 out here all day watching you. And he just kind 00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:45.099 of dropped his head and had me get in the boat 00:29:45.099 --> 00:29:48.799 with him. I went down the channel back where 00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:51.720 he came from, where the blind is. And there on 00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:56.579 this little hummock of ground was the other seven 00:29:56.579 --> 00:30:00.279 that he'd put 100 yards away before he came into 00:30:00.279 --> 00:30:05.519 the clubhouse dock. And my point on this is he'd 00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:08.019 been doing this so many years that this hummock 00:30:08.019 --> 00:30:11.400 of ground was just bare. It was just bare dirt 00:30:11.400 --> 00:30:13.920 that should have been grass because this guy 00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:18.559 had been doing this for God knows how long. And 00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:21.619 it just took people to go out there and sit all 00:30:21.619 --> 00:30:24.279 day to catch them. And who's going to do that, 00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:29.089 right? I mean, it's work. We got up at dark 30, 00:30:29.289 --> 00:30:36.230 ran a boat through the dark sloughs. So we were 00:30:36.230 --> 00:30:41.450 pretty happy. But that had an effect on the marsh 00:30:41.450 --> 00:30:43.789 pretty soon. All of a sudden, there's two feds 00:30:43.789 --> 00:30:47.509 in there. They're willing to do this kind of 00:30:47.509 --> 00:30:51.450 work for an over -limited docks. And so that 00:30:51.450 --> 00:30:54.769 just kind of added to it. But what got me into 00:30:54.769 --> 00:31:00.190 the whole endangered species take situation was 00:31:00.190 --> 00:31:06.630 there was a flood event in the marsh. So this 00:31:06.630 --> 00:31:09.849 marsh is at the confluence of the Sacramento 00:31:09.849 --> 00:31:12.849 and the San Joaquin rivers, okay? So they come 00:31:12.849 --> 00:31:16.029 together right there. Huge, huge amount of water. 00:31:16.589 --> 00:31:22.109 So as you know, you know, when the... California 00:31:22.109 --> 00:31:25.730 gets rain, they get rain. It's usually too much 00:31:25.730 --> 00:31:31.230 and it all comes at once. And so there was a 00:31:31.230 --> 00:31:34.029 huge flood event out there in the marsh. And 00:31:34.029 --> 00:31:36.250 again, these are all duck clubs and there's some 00:31:36.250 --> 00:31:39.470 nice clubs and there's some reason to be concerned 00:31:39.470 --> 00:31:44.089 about flooding, obviously. So the Corps kicked 00:31:44.089 --> 00:31:46.950 out what was called an emergency permit, right? 00:31:46.950 --> 00:31:49.470 Because some of the levees were starting to fail, 00:31:49.490 --> 00:31:53.150 and there was some holes punched in them. And 00:31:53.150 --> 00:31:57.210 so the Corps kicked out an emergency permit, 00:31:57.549 --> 00:32:01.349 and that permit said, look, you can go repair 00:32:01.349 --> 00:32:05.509 the damage, but if there's any endangered species 00:32:05.509 --> 00:32:09.009 concerns, you need to consult with US Fish and 00:32:09.009 --> 00:32:12.380 Wildlife Service immediately. Then you're gonna 00:32:12.380 --> 00:32:15.980 have to mitigate with them if you end up destroying 00:32:15.980 --> 00:32:19.579 some habitat You know is it kind of put the onus 00:32:19.579 --> 00:32:22.059 on the landowner to get a hold of the service 00:32:22.059 --> 00:32:25.460 And you know fix your problem, but then figure 00:32:25.460 --> 00:32:29.779 out what what to do from there Well all these 00:32:29.779 --> 00:32:32.799 not all these clubs, but a bunch of the clubs 00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:36.359 and of course the main Construction company that 00:32:36.359 --> 00:32:38.799 dealt with all the construction out there was 00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:42.289 paid for by the clubs to do the construct construction, 00:32:42.710 --> 00:32:46.569 they just went crazy, right? Because they use 00:32:46.569 --> 00:32:50.990 this as a way to go out and just dredge, baby 00:32:50.990 --> 00:32:55.410 dredge, right? I mean, because they hadn't had 00:32:55.410 --> 00:33:00.589 access to the kind of dredging forever that they 00:33:00.589 --> 00:33:05.829 wanted to do to shore up these levels. So I get 00:33:05.829 --> 00:33:08.950 a call eventually from the Sacramento field office 00:33:08.950 --> 00:33:12.910 like it's gone crazy out there. They're in all 00:33:12.910 --> 00:33:18.910 this listed species habitat day after day doing 00:33:18.910 --> 00:33:22.990 whatever they want because they want to strengthen 00:33:22.990 --> 00:33:25.849 all these levees under this emergency permit 00:33:25.849 --> 00:33:30.690 and going way above and beyond what they're supposed 00:33:30.690 --> 00:33:35.549 to do. I got called in to the Sacramento office 00:33:35.549 --> 00:33:42.000 and Essentially, my job was to go out and document 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:50.240 how much had been done. That was going to take 00:33:50.240 --> 00:33:53.460 up a month or two of my time at that point. It 00:33:53.460 --> 00:33:57.619 was such a huge amount of dredging all over the 00:33:57.619 --> 00:34:04.619 marsh. Luckily, they gave me full rein to rent 00:34:04.619 --> 00:34:08.110 some aircraft. And a lot of it, a lot of it I 00:34:08.110 --> 00:34:12.829 did by air. I just flew around and took pictures 00:34:12.829 --> 00:34:16.170 of all this new levy work and doc, cause who 00:34:16.170 --> 00:34:18.730 was going to do that? Right? Who was going to 00:34:18.730 --> 00:34:21.969 keep these guys accountable for the amount of 00:34:21.969 --> 00:34:26.329 work that was being done. Right. And so, and 00:34:26.329 --> 00:34:28.429 of course, biologists who contacted you, they 00:34:28.429 --> 00:34:31.327 could tell these guys, Hey, you're, you're, you're 00:34:31.320 --> 00:34:34.179 You're damaging habitat and you've got no mitigation 00:34:34.179 --> 00:34:36.579 plan, but the biologists can't force them to 00:34:36.579 --> 00:34:39.800 stop or do anything else, right? Yeah, that's 00:34:39.800 --> 00:34:42.920 right. That's right. And so really, it started 00:34:42.920 --> 00:34:46.519 out being generated from the Sacramento field 00:34:46.519 --> 00:34:50.039 office. And the biologists that worked out there 00:34:50.039 --> 00:34:52.659 that knew where all this habitat was, they knew 00:34:52.659 --> 00:34:58.219 the species that were being affected. I went 00:34:58.219 --> 00:35:00.840 out, I started the process of documenting all 00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:03.079 this. And, you know, we were looking at it as 00:35:03.079 --> 00:35:05.760 a civil case, right? Because, you know, when 00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:09.539 I started the documentation process, I went into 00:35:09.539 --> 00:35:12.539 the U .S. Attorney's Office in Sacramento, and 00:35:12.539 --> 00:35:14.760 they weren't interested in anything that occurred 00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:19.820 under emergency permit, right? They just... They 00:35:19.820 --> 00:35:22.559 just said, hey, we know the language is really 00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:26.539 good as far as endangered species, and they can't 00:35:26.539 --> 00:35:29.219 do this, and they need to get a hold of the service 00:35:29.219 --> 00:35:32.179 before, and blah, blah, blah. But they just weren't 00:35:32.179 --> 00:35:38.539 going to touch it. So that's kind of what happened. 00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:41.519 But there's a lot more to it. And if you want 00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:44.039 me to go on, I'll continue. Go on. So you've 00:35:44.039 --> 00:35:46.920 documented now all the destruction of the habitat. 00:35:47.539 --> 00:35:56.699 And now what? Now what? So, again, I'm making 00:35:56.699 --> 00:36:00.179 up these binders. I'm documenting, you know, 00:36:00.260 --> 00:36:03.440 there's 158 dot clubs. I can't tell you to this 00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:06.800 day how many were involved in this dredging and 00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:10.900 this work. There was generally just one construction 00:36:10.900 --> 00:36:13.480 company that did all the work, a lot of it by 00:36:13.480 --> 00:36:18.739 barge. And so I'm putting together these binders. 00:36:19.099 --> 00:36:21.559 Well, in the course of this, suddenly there's 00:36:21.559 --> 00:36:27.420 kind of information trickling in from sources. 00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:31.679 You know, we're getting calls that, hey, there's 00:36:31.679 --> 00:36:35.019 a lot more going on and there's a lot of illegal 00:36:35.019 --> 00:36:39.119 work going on that's not part of this emergency 00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:43.239 permit. and was done prior to the emergency and 00:36:43.239 --> 00:36:46.159 is being done well after the emergency permit 00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:51.340 expires, okay? So at that - You gotta go talk 00:36:51.340 --> 00:36:53.780 to the construction company, right? You're gonna 00:36:53.780 --> 00:36:56.599 go interview those guys. Well, yeah. Well, you 00:36:56.599 --> 00:36:58.800 know, and I knew what the answer was gonna be, 00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:02.320 you know? I mean, this is kinda like, it's such 00:37:02.320 --> 00:37:05.880 a closed group, right? I mean, I can't talk to 00:37:05.880 --> 00:37:09.840 anybody without, you know, the beans. being spilled. 00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:14.500 So John, up north, the agent in Chico, he said, 00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:18.119 well, if you need help, get a hold of the FBI 00:37:18.119 --> 00:37:21.559 in Fairfield, California. He goes, there's an 00:37:21.559 --> 00:37:24.099 agent there I've worked with before on endangered 00:37:24.099 --> 00:37:28.980 species act cases. He's a great guy. And he'll 00:37:28.980 --> 00:37:31.440 help you. He's right there in Fairfield, which 00:37:31.440 --> 00:37:34.420 is right there on the Sassoon Marsh. And I'm 00:37:34.420 --> 00:37:38.469 going, OK. So I got a hold of that agent and 00:37:38.469 --> 00:37:41.530 we ended up, you know, just becoming really good 00:37:41.530 --> 00:37:44.530 friends as part of this case and, and working 00:37:44.530 --> 00:37:48.510 it together. He, when I gave him the information 00:37:48.510 --> 00:37:51.829 on the, the director of the Sassoon resource 00:37:51.829 --> 00:37:54.929 conservation district, he started saying, well, 00:37:55.030 --> 00:37:59.429 this guy's gotta be up to no good. And you know, 00:37:59.429 --> 00:38:02.590 why is he letting this work happen? You know, 00:38:02.610 --> 00:38:05.429 when he's supposed to be the gatekeeper, right? 00:38:05.579 --> 00:38:08.460 And so he kind of started looking at it as a 00:38:08.460 --> 00:38:12.920 public corruption case. Oh, interesting. We've 00:38:12.920 --> 00:38:15.920 all worked with the FBI in our careers at different 00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:19.019 times, but it's typically not on a habitat destruction 00:38:19.019 --> 00:38:23.380 case. Yeah, right. So, you know, he had a great 00:38:23.380 --> 00:38:25.619 angle, right? I mean, he had a, you know, and 00:38:25.619 --> 00:38:28.860 I was a new agent. I was a fairly new agent. 00:38:28.960 --> 00:38:31.500 So, you know, he was talking to me about things 00:38:31.500 --> 00:38:34.360 I didn't even think about, you know, like money. 00:38:35.099 --> 00:38:38.500 where are they getting the money to do this and 00:38:38.500 --> 00:38:43.219 yada, yada, yada. And so I got the FBI involved 00:38:43.219 --> 00:38:45.880 and then also since there was illegal dredging 00:38:45.880 --> 00:38:52.260 going on, EPA is the one that enforces that for 00:38:52.260 --> 00:38:54.780 Rivers and Harbors Act is what it's called when 00:38:54.780 --> 00:38:59.119 you're doing illegal dredging and violating a 00:38:59.119 --> 00:39:03.119 court permit. So I ended up linking up with an 00:39:03.119 --> 00:39:06.360 EPA agent in Sacramento, super helpful, right? 00:39:06.380 --> 00:39:09.079 It was totally into it. It was endangered species. 00:39:09.159 --> 00:39:13.480 She was just gung -ho. And so was this FBI agent. 00:39:14.239 --> 00:39:18.139 So we kind of started a little task force and 00:39:18.139 --> 00:39:22.860 we said, well, you know, if there's dredging 00:39:22.860 --> 00:39:26.880 outside the emergency permit period, you know, 00:39:26.940 --> 00:39:29.239 we're going to take these people on a criminal 00:39:29.420 --> 00:39:33.780 ESA take, because they all have the knowledge. 00:39:34.119 --> 00:39:36.719 They all are part of this core permit. They all 00:39:36.719 --> 00:39:38.820 have read it. They've all been mailed copies 00:39:38.820 --> 00:39:44.260 of it. And we're going to look into it and see 00:39:44.260 --> 00:39:47.420 what happens. Interesting. And that's another 00:39:47.420 --> 00:39:51.719 thing. EPA is another agency that has law enforcement 00:39:51.719 --> 00:39:53.739 authority, and they do have special agents that 00:39:53.739 --> 00:39:56.800 work for the EPA. That's another agency that 00:39:56.800 --> 00:39:59.119 we frequently can get involved in, particularly 00:39:59.119 --> 00:40:02.860 on habitat destruction or pollution cases and 00:40:02.860 --> 00:40:08.000 that type of thing. So where does this lead you? 00:40:08.219 --> 00:40:10.820 So now you're definitely on a criminal track. 00:40:11.179 --> 00:40:14.360 You've gotten good knowledge. You've documented 00:40:14.360 --> 00:40:16.719 that there's take outside this emergency plan. 00:40:17.340 --> 00:40:20.039 In the normal course of this investigation, then, 00:40:20.639 --> 00:40:25.280 where do you go next? At this point, we're getting 00:40:25.280 --> 00:40:28.719 some really good informants developed. They just 00:40:28.719 --> 00:40:34.940 come out of the woodwork. We start working with 00:40:34.940 --> 00:40:39.159 these people closely. They're in the know. They 00:40:39.159 --> 00:40:43.000 start telling us who's doing what, when it's 00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:47.159 done, how much damage. It's done outside the 00:40:47.159 --> 00:40:52.920 emergency period. There's full knowledge. Guess 00:40:52.920 --> 00:40:59.250 who? Pops up is one of the main illegal habitat 00:40:59.250 --> 00:41:05.469 take Suspects in the marsh, but the the director 00:41:05.469 --> 00:41:07.949 of the Sassoon resource conservation district 00:41:07.949 --> 00:41:10.530 So the informants or the sources you've got start 00:41:10.530 --> 00:41:14.489 to actually point fingers. Yeah this guy Yep 00:41:14.489 --> 00:41:18.510 said he did a huge dredge in critical habitat 00:41:18.510 --> 00:41:21.789 for these endangered species California clapper 00:41:21.789 --> 00:41:26.670 rail Delta smelt Took took a lot of habitat way 00:41:26.670 --> 00:41:29.449 out, you know had nothing to do with an emergency 00:41:29.449 --> 00:41:33.309 And so this is a guy that's telling other club 00:41:33.309 --> 00:41:37.230 members our club owners You can't do this on 00:41:37.230 --> 00:41:41.010 your club, you know, this is you know a violation 00:41:41.010 --> 00:41:45.449 of the permit So and and you got to remember 00:41:45.449 --> 00:41:49.050 this individual he's tight with fish and game 00:41:49.050 --> 00:41:52.449 He's got mucky mucks from fish and game hunting 00:41:52.449 --> 00:41:56.139 his club from the regional office. I mean, it 00:41:56.139 --> 00:41:59.599 was pretty intimidating. You knew there were 00:41:59.599 --> 00:42:02.659 a lot of powerful people that were not gonna 00:42:02.659 --> 00:42:05.539 be happy with the outcome here. And you're talking 00:42:05.539 --> 00:42:07.340 about California Department of Fish and Game, 00:42:07.519 --> 00:42:09.340 which is now California Department of Fish and 00:42:09.340 --> 00:42:12.960 Wildlife. But yeah, so you've got officials at 00:42:12.960 --> 00:42:14.579 California Department of Fish and Wildlife who 00:42:14.579 --> 00:42:16.380 are tight with this guy and actually hunt on 00:42:16.380 --> 00:42:21.099 his property. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Regional 00:42:21.099 --> 00:42:25.559 managers, that kind of thing. And what they knew, 00:42:25.719 --> 00:42:27.960 I don't know. I mean, I don't know how you couldn't 00:42:27.960 --> 00:42:30.559 know. I mean, they're doing these huge projects 00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:35.440 and floodgates and dredge material and things 00:42:35.440 --> 00:42:39.849 like that. So, you know, but you you you know, 00:42:39.849 --> 00:42:42.409 I couldn't talk to them about it again, you know 00:42:42.409 --> 00:42:45.409 There was very limited people I could talk to 00:42:45.409 --> 00:42:47.570 in the know and if it wasn't for these people 00:42:47.570 --> 00:42:52.289 that came forward and a lot of Risk to them career 00:42:52.289 --> 00:42:55.769 -wise right? I mean they these are all people 00:42:55.769 --> 00:43:00.010 that are in that the field right and and They 00:43:00.010 --> 00:43:02.630 came through and they they gave us some really 00:43:02.630 --> 00:43:06.800 good information enough that we eventually wrote 00:43:06.800 --> 00:43:11.199 a number of search warrants and had about 40 00:43:11.199 --> 00:43:16.199 agents from FBI, EPA, and Fish and Wildlife descend 00:43:16.199 --> 00:43:24.260 on two homes, two private homes, SRCD headquarters, 00:43:25.599 --> 00:43:30.219 the construction company headquarters, and seized 00:43:30.219 --> 00:43:34.110 computers and files. and everything to document 00:43:34.110 --> 00:43:36.590 what was going on. Yeah, so that's what, when 00:43:36.590 --> 00:43:38.610 you do a search warrant like that, what are you 00:43:38.610 --> 00:43:41.849 looking for? Documents mainly or what? Yeah, 00:43:41.949 --> 00:43:43.949 I mean, a lot of these people, you know, this 00:43:43.949 --> 00:43:47.610 is, you know, transitioning into computers, right? 00:43:47.630 --> 00:43:50.070 But a lot of these were paper files, you know, 00:43:50.130 --> 00:43:52.889 that had a duck club's name. And, you know, this 00:43:52.889 --> 00:43:55.489 is the work that's been done. There was a really 00:43:55.489 --> 00:43:57.690 interesting twist to this, Ed. I'm going to bring 00:43:57.690 --> 00:44:01.340 it up now before I forget about it. It shows 00:44:01.340 --> 00:44:06.579 you how crazy things get. Well, there's a congressional 00:44:06.579 --> 00:44:09.539 act called the North American Wetlands Conservation 00:44:09.539 --> 00:44:14.099 Act, right? And it's NACA. People use the word, 00:44:14.320 --> 00:44:19.619 the name NACA for this. Well, NACA was a bunch 00:44:19.619 --> 00:44:25.949 of matching funds to do work on wetlands. We 00:44:25.949 --> 00:44:29.989 have pictures before all this went down of in 00:44:29.989 --> 00:44:34.690 ducks unlimited magazine with our regional director 00:44:34.690 --> 00:44:38.909 right from the Fish and Wildlife Service standing 00:44:38.909 --> 00:44:44.610 there with big checks and the the executive director 00:44:44.610 --> 00:44:49.829 of s srcd You know with these standing with these 00:44:49.829 --> 00:44:53.369 big fake checks the service basically giving 00:44:53.369 --> 00:44:58.880 money money to these duck clubs to do work on 00:44:58.880 --> 00:45:01.280 their property. Which would be habitat restoration 00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:05.699 work. Supposed to be. Or whatever. Or whatever, 00:45:05.900 --> 00:45:10.699 right? Supposed to be. At one point I was, as 00:45:10.699 --> 00:45:17.960 you recall, or you brought up earlier, the region 00:45:17.960 --> 00:45:22.280 was Was a huge region at the time and in Sacramento 00:45:22.280 --> 00:45:25.300 office I believe they had kind of like a deputy 00:45:25.300 --> 00:45:28.039 director, you know somebody that you know Just 00:45:28.039 --> 00:45:30.960 handled a lot of the California, Nevada issues 00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:33.659 that you know was still run out of Portland But 00:45:33.659 --> 00:45:36.559 this person was you know right under the director 00:45:36.559 --> 00:45:39.980 in Portland and at one point my boss asked me 00:45:39.980 --> 00:45:43.280 to give a briefing to this guy Okay, because 00:45:43.280 --> 00:45:46.360 as you'll also remember we were under a different 00:45:46.360 --> 00:45:49.980 chain of command back then You know the sack 00:45:49.980 --> 00:45:52.739 the special agent in charge used to report to 00:45:52.739 --> 00:45:56.079 the director right exactly in in the in the direct 00:45:56.079 --> 00:45:58.139 up in Portland Yeah, they're the reach to the 00:45:58.139 --> 00:46:00.320 original director. Whereas now law enforcement 00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:02.400 has what's called line authority They go directly 00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:04.840 to the assistant director for law enforcement 00:46:04.840 --> 00:46:08.699 in Washington DC Back then right special agents 00:46:08.699 --> 00:46:11.019 in charge for the region answered to the non 00:46:11.019 --> 00:46:15.239 law enforcement Regional directors for this service. 00:46:15.239 --> 00:46:18.360 So that was a very awkward situation particularly 00:46:18.360 --> 00:46:22.019 in cases like you're describing. Right. So these 00:46:22.019 --> 00:46:26.119 guys are going down, giving tons of money to 00:46:26.119 --> 00:46:32.380 these clubs for their managed wetlands down there. 00:46:32.480 --> 00:46:34.820 And what are they doing with the money, right? 00:46:34.900 --> 00:46:38.500 What are they doing with these NACA funds? So 00:46:38.500 --> 00:46:42.500 I was kind of ordered more or less because I 00:46:42.500 --> 00:46:44.559 was really uncomfortable doing it because it 00:46:44.559 --> 00:46:46.860 was kind of in the middle of this investigation. 00:46:47.119 --> 00:46:50.719 And I knew that this deputy manager that was 00:46:50.719 --> 00:46:53.920 not law enforcement knew all these people I was 00:46:53.920 --> 00:46:58.820 dealing with at a super high level. And so I, 00:46:58.820 --> 00:47:01.940 you know, I went to Sacramento like I was told 00:47:01.940 --> 00:47:06.260 and I remember a statement that this guy made. 00:47:06.300 --> 00:47:08.619 He looked at me at one point during my briefing 00:47:08.619 --> 00:47:11.980 and said, for God's sakes, please don't tell 00:47:11.980 --> 00:47:14.760 me there's any knock off funds being used to. 00:47:14.989 --> 00:47:19.429 to destroy endangered species habitat. And I 00:47:19.429 --> 00:47:23.070 just said, I said, we haven't made that connection, 00:47:23.110 --> 00:47:25.909 but I guarantee it's happening. Because you're 00:47:25.909 --> 00:47:28.610 writing these guys checks and they're spending 00:47:28.610 --> 00:47:31.550 it any way they want. And they're writing their 00:47:31.550 --> 00:47:36.349 own invoices. And, you know, it'd take a dozen 00:47:36.349 --> 00:47:40.670 agents to ferret through all this. And so I went 00:47:40.670 --> 00:47:44.550 to Department of Interior OIG Office of Inspector 00:47:44.550 --> 00:47:49.389 General. Yeah, in Sacramento at the time, totally 00:47:49.389 --> 00:47:52.849 uninterested in the case. Interesting. Because 00:47:52.849 --> 00:47:56.070 I thought, hey, this is right down their alley, 00:47:56.309 --> 00:48:00.230 right? I mean, you know, and I couldn't get them 00:48:00.230 --> 00:48:05.889 interested, you know, to work that angle of it. 00:48:06.070 --> 00:48:10.150 And like, as you know, things get so time consuming, 00:48:10.389 --> 00:48:12.489 right? I mean, this would have been a whole nother 00:48:12.489 --> 00:48:16.079 facet They're going through books, you know, 00:48:16.179 --> 00:48:19.539 more search warrants, bank records, you know, 00:48:19.659 --> 00:48:22.280 trying to tie in these checks for NACA funds. 00:48:22.679 --> 00:48:24.579 So, you know, what these guys were actually doing 00:48:24.579 --> 00:48:27.699 on the ground and whether it was in, you know, 00:48:27.880 --> 00:48:33.139 destroying endangered species habitat. So, go 00:48:33.139 --> 00:48:34.539 ahead. When you did your search warrants, did 00:48:34.539 --> 00:48:37.179 you do interviews and what was the result of 00:48:37.179 --> 00:48:38.699 those? Did you get anybody to confess or anything? 00:48:39.820 --> 00:48:43.519 Yeah, well the timing we did you know since we 00:48:43.519 --> 00:48:46.179 started to have some people on the inside We 00:48:46.179 --> 00:48:49.539 actually did the timing so a couple of the principles 00:48:49.539 --> 00:48:52.500 were gone You know like that because we wanted 00:48:52.500 --> 00:48:55.659 you know unfettered access to some of the places 00:48:55.659 --> 00:49:00.199 that we were going so like the the deputy director, 00:49:00.199 --> 00:49:03.619 I mean, I'm sorry the the executive director 00:49:03.619 --> 00:49:08.130 for SRCD He was gone. He was obviously our main 00:49:08.130 --> 00:49:11.989 target on this thing because we knew he was in 00:49:11.989 --> 00:49:16.630 charge and he'd violated. So he was gone. So 00:49:16.630 --> 00:49:21.050 we did interview his deputy during the day of 00:49:21.050 --> 00:49:26.250 the search warrant. And it was a warm day in 00:49:26.250 --> 00:49:29.869 this little bit of a cramped office building 00:49:29.869 --> 00:49:35.550 out in the middle of the marsh. Boy, we just 00:49:35.550 --> 00:49:37.909 worked on him and worked on him and worked on 00:49:37.909 --> 00:49:42.010 him and You know just sweat was pouring out of 00:49:42.010 --> 00:49:47.250 this guy's forehead and Finally, you know after 00:49:47.250 --> 00:49:50.349 after a long interview I kind of took over part 00:49:50.349 --> 00:49:53.449 of the way through and it started out with the 00:49:53.449 --> 00:49:56.489 FBI agent working on him and then I and Then 00:49:56.489 --> 00:49:59.610 I took over and and we finally got him to admit. 00:49:59.610 --> 00:50:03.469 Yeah that his boss the executive director did 00:50:03.469 --> 00:50:08.489 a huge illegal dredge in endangered species habitat 00:50:08.489 --> 00:50:12.869 in the Sassoon March. And this is the guy's name 00:50:12.869 --> 00:50:15.730 that's on the permit for the Corps of Engineers 00:50:15.730 --> 00:50:19.230 that I will not do any of this stuff. And I'm 00:50:19.230 --> 00:50:21.710 signing. Pretty good case at that point. Great 00:50:21.710 --> 00:50:27.750 knowledge. So at that point, I'm like, well, 00:50:28.789 --> 00:50:31.190 any prosecutor's going to take this. I mean, 00:50:31.369 --> 00:50:34.730 I really felt like, you know, if this isn't knowledge, 00:50:34.909 --> 00:50:37.349 I mean, I'm just going to give up doing habitat 00:50:37.349 --> 00:50:41.289 cases if this isn't good enough. If this isn't 00:50:41.289 --> 00:50:44.489 it, then there is no good case, right? Yeah, 00:50:44.489 --> 00:50:47.010 there is no good case. I mean, here's the guy 00:50:47.010 --> 00:50:49.929 that negotiated the permit with the court, right? 00:50:50.130 --> 00:50:53.090 OK, so here's the $100 ,000 question. Did you 00:50:53.090 --> 00:50:54.889 were able to sell it to a prosecutor? Did you 00:50:54.889 --> 00:50:59.280 get charges out of this case? So what were the 00:50:59.280 --> 00:51:03.739 charges and what was the outcome? So we ended 00:51:03.739 --> 00:51:08.519 up charging through information misdemeanors. 00:51:09.019 --> 00:51:12.039 We charged the executive director for the Sassoon 00:51:12.039 --> 00:51:14.739 Resource Conservation District. We charged him 00:51:14.739 --> 00:51:18.099 with a take of endangered species and listed 00:51:18.099 --> 00:51:23.280 Delta Smelt, California Clapper Rail, and Chinook 00:51:23.280 --> 00:51:26.039 Salmon. as the principal species, because it 00:51:26.039 --> 00:51:29.820 was all habitat outside the levees that these 00:51:29.820 --> 00:51:35.079 animals use. And then we also charged the principal 00:51:35.079 --> 00:51:38.500 contractor, the construction guy, for the same 00:51:38.500 --> 00:51:41.920 violation. He was in the loop with everybody. 00:51:42.059 --> 00:51:46.619 He knew all the permit conditions. And they both 00:51:46.619 --> 00:51:49.340 pled. Pled guilty. Pled guilty. So these were 00:51:49.340 --> 00:51:53.380 criminal charges under the ESA. Great. That's 00:51:53.380 --> 00:51:55.320 correct. They both pled guilty. OK, good. Do 00:51:55.320 --> 00:51:57.360 you remember what the outcome was, what the sentencing? 00:51:58.320 --> 00:52:00.940 You know, we asked for jail time. Of course, 00:52:00.940 --> 00:52:05.539 we didn't get it. I think we ended up, I think 00:52:05.539 --> 00:52:11.159 they both got $10 ,000 fines, which isn't much, 00:52:12.199 --> 00:52:14.300 particularly for the amount of work that went 00:52:14.300 --> 00:52:17.079 into this. But it was symbolic, right? I mean, 00:52:17.079 --> 00:52:21.460 it was really symbolic. It had a huge ripple 00:52:21.460 --> 00:52:26.059 effect through the marsh. The board of the SRCD, 00:52:26.280 --> 00:52:28.780 which is made up of, you know, duck club owners, 00:52:29.119 --> 00:52:32.139 landowners in the marsh, they terminated him 00:52:32.139 --> 00:52:35.440 immediately, which I gave him high marks for 00:52:35.440 --> 00:52:42.119 that. And so he lost his job there. Good articles 00:52:42.119 --> 00:52:47.889 in the newspaper, Sacramento Bee. and the local 00:52:47.889 --> 00:52:51.170 Fairfield paper and was pretty easy to find a 00:52:51.170 --> 00:52:54.489 number of articles on it for quite a while. So, 00:52:55.250 --> 00:52:57.010 again, I don't know, there's something, this 00:52:57.010 --> 00:52:59.369 is why I think going the criminal route is so 00:52:59.369 --> 00:53:01.730 important because I think I'm sure some of the 00:53:01.730 --> 00:53:04.510 people listening or watching will say, didn't 00:53:04.510 --> 00:53:07.570 go to jail, $10 ,000, that's nothing. But it 00:53:07.570 --> 00:53:11.530 really is because at that point, once they pled 00:53:11.530 --> 00:53:14.800 and they were sentenced, even though it's a class 00:53:14.800 --> 00:53:17.639 A misdemeanor, it is a federal crime on their 00:53:17.639 --> 00:53:21.480 record, right? They now have a record. And if 00:53:21.480 --> 00:53:26.320 anybody ever runs them, they come up as a person 00:53:26.320 --> 00:53:30.079 convicted of a federal crime. And that has consequences 00:53:30.079 --> 00:53:33.000 in a lot of different avenues of life. And more 00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:37.179 importantly, when people might say, gosh, why 00:53:37.179 --> 00:53:40.000 did that, you know, That agent's work was wasted. 00:53:40.219 --> 00:53:41.840 He spent so much time doing that case and all 00:53:41.840 --> 00:53:44.480 they got was a misdemeanor with no time. That's 00:53:44.480 --> 00:53:46.780 not really the right way to look at it. What 00:53:46.780 --> 00:53:53.300 you did was you proved a ongoing, you know, illegal 00:53:53.300 --> 00:53:56.780 activity. You got convictions. It's on the record. 00:53:57.460 --> 00:54:02.719 Any future violations of similar? That's where 00:54:02.719 --> 00:54:05.539 sentences get much harsher in the federal system. 00:54:05.820 --> 00:54:08.340 The federal system tends to cut people a lot 00:54:08.340 --> 00:54:12.139 of slack on their first conviction, second conviction, 00:54:12.260 --> 00:54:15.920 third conviction, not so much. Right. And it's 00:54:15.920 --> 00:54:18.599 so it can be very, very important to lay that 00:54:18.599 --> 00:54:22.019 first case down on someone's record, because 00:54:22.019 --> 00:54:25.559 if they violate again, the penalty is going to 00:54:25.559 --> 00:54:27.619 be much harsher. They have a much higher chance 00:54:27.619 --> 00:54:31.039 of going to jail if they are second offender. 00:54:31.059 --> 00:54:34.500 And so. You know, it does have a tremendous deterrent 00:54:34.500 --> 00:54:36.579 effect, even though it's only a Class A misdemeanor 00:54:36.579 --> 00:54:40.300 with no jail time in this case, right? No, I 00:54:40.300 --> 00:54:43.340 agree. I mean, you know, and as you know, the 00:54:43.340 --> 00:54:46.059 U .S. Attorney's Office, you know, they put out 00:54:46.059 --> 00:54:49.960 real tight press releases that, you know, spell 00:54:49.960 --> 00:54:53.679 everything out and super easy for the newspapers 00:54:53.679 --> 00:54:56.559 to pick up and write, you know, and it's all 00:54:56.559 --> 00:54:59.159 facts, right? It's just, this is what happened. 00:54:59.340 --> 00:55:02.320 This is what this guy did. You know, he's in 00:55:02.320 --> 00:55:05.340 charge of this. You know, he, he thumbed his 00:55:05.340 --> 00:55:08.780 nose at the endangered species act and was, you 00:55:08.780 --> 00:55:11.739 know, the major violator. And again, I think 00:55:11.739 --> 00:55:16.219 of the duck clubs that he denied the same activity, 00:55:16.219 --> 00:55:19.880 right? I mean, they must've been furious because, 00:55:20.539 --> 00:55:22.880 you know, they're like, what, you know, you're 00:55:22.880 --> 00:55:26.320 in charge of us and, and, you know, you're, you're 00:55:26.320 --> 00:55:28.619 violating, you know, you're the, you're the big 00:55:28.619 --> 00:55:34.590 violator. Yeah, so and and I did follow up on 00:55:34.590 --> 00:55:39.610 you know, we we had a we had a gentleman An attorney 00:55:39.610 --> 00:55:41.949 that was working out of Portland for a while 00:55:41.949 --> 00:55:46.510 and I can't remember his name He did follow up 00:55:46.510 --> 00:55:50.849 on quite a few of the civil civil cases during 00:55:50.849 --> 00:55:54.369 that happened during the the emergency permits 00:55:54.369 --> 00:55:58.639 and he yeah, he got some civil fines from some 00:55:58.639 --> 00:56:00.820 of the clubs, you know, was allotted back and 00:56:00.820 --> 00:56:03.960 forth negotiation. And, you know, they just finally 00:56:03.960 --> 00:56:07.539 agreed to write a check for X amount, you know, 00:56:07.559 --> 00:56:12.019 but so that that was followed up on. And, you 00:56:12.019 --> 00:56:16.019 know, we did we did get some some justice there, 00:56:16.019 --> 00:56:18.920 too. Well, hey, we have about five minutes left. 00:56:19.179 --> 00:56:21.139 And I want there's a couple of things I want 00:56:21.139 --> 00:56:23.239 to touch on real quick. You know, when you do 00:56:23.239 --> 00:56:26.469 a case like this. As you mentioned, there were 00:56:26.469 --> 00:56:29.489 some high level people at California Department 00:56:29.489 --> 00:56:31.070 of Fish and Wildlife who were connected in with 00:56:31.070 --> 00:56:35.889 some of these clubs. You've got some powerful 00:56:35.889 --> 00:56:41.610 interests that are looking at this. I think it's 00:56:41.610 --> 00:56:43.469 important for listeners to understand what the 00:56:43.469 --> 00:56:45.769 fallout is from a case like this, just in terms 00:56:45.769 --> 00:56:49.289 of you as an agent trying to do your job. So 00:56:49.289 --> 00:56:53.030 for example, after this happened, I mean, tell 00:56:53.030 --> 00:56:57.239 us. What was the, did it affect your relationship 00:56:57.239 --> 00:56:59.599 with the state of California Department of Wildlife? 00:57:00.739 --> 00:57:05.000 Well, it certainly did with above the warden 00:57:05.000 --> 00:57:07.300 level. You know, I think the wardens were all 00:57:07.300 --> 00:57:10.719 kind of, you know, thumbs up, you know, you know, 00:57:10.719 --> 00:57:14.380 because as you know, I mean, the California Fish 00:57:14.380 --> 00:57:17.179 and Wildlife Wardens top notch, right? I mean, 00:57:17.260 --> 00:57:20.739 very hard work, top notch. I've worked all over 00:57:20.739 --> 00:57:23.980 the West. I've worked with Many state wardens 00:57:23.980 --> 00:57:27.199 and you know Cal fishing game at the time. I 00:57:27.199 --> 00:57:30.059 mean is what their name was You know, they were 00:57:30.059 --> 00:57:32.840 top -notch you could trust any any of them with 00:57:32.840 --> 00:57:35.340 the same true in Southern California as well, 00:57:35.340 --> 00:57:39.440 but So I think they were all you know thumbs 00:57:39.440 --> 00:57:43.320 up, you know, here's a Fed doing his job and 00:57:43.320 --> 00:57:47.400 doing stuff that needs to be done, but Above 00:57:47.400 --> 00:57:51.000 that as far as you know any anybody above that 00:57:51.000 --> 00:57:53.679 I think it was you know My name was mud right 00:57:53.679 --> 00:57:56.360 because I was I was stirring the pot, you know 00:57:56.360 --> 00:57:59.599 For sure in the Napa office. I know you know, 00:57:59.619 --> 00:58:04.539 they had the same kind of You know Organization 00:58:04.539 --> 00:58:07.480 back then were generally somebody that was in 00:58:07.480 --> 00:58:11.340 charge was a non law enforcement person You know, 00:58:11.460 --> 00:58:14.119 I mean the regional regional manager. How about 00:58:14.119 --> 00:58:16.019 from the fish and wildlife biologists? How did 00:58:16.019 --> 00:58:18.139 they react to your case? How'd they view you? 00:58:18.760 --> 00:58:24.119 Oh Hero status, right? Yeah We're not worthy, 00:58:24.119 --> 00:58:26.559 you know, I mean they were they were yeah, it 00:58:26.559 --> 00:58:29.619 was great. I mean that was You know, that's that 00:58:29.619 --> 00:58:33.360 was really nice to have that kind of accolades 00:58:33.360 --> 00:58:36.019 from those guys I mean they those men and women 00:58:36.739 --> 00:58:39.340 They're great scientists. They work really hard. 00:58:39.519 --> 00:58:42.360 They produce a lot of incredible information. 00:58:43.099 --> 00:58:46.300 And they were like, finally somebody's listening. 00:58:47.219 --> 00:58:50.880 Exactly. So important. I think one of the best 00:58:50.880 --> 00:58:54.440 things out of this case was, at the time, the 00:58:54.440 --> 00:58:56.400 special agent in charge for our region was a 00:58:56.400 --> 00:58:59.659 guy named Dave McMullen. And you told me that 00:58:59.659 --> 00:59:01.639 after you finished up this case, he gave you 00:59:01.639 --> 00:59:03.519 a call. And he just had three words to say to 00:59:03.519 --> 00:59:06.199 you. Do you remember what those words were? Yeah, 00:59:06.199 --> 00:59:10.219 it was a great case kid, you know something along 00:59:10.219 --> 00:59:13.300 those lines You know, it was just like, you know, 00:59:13.340 --> 00:59:16.219 he stayed out of it the whole time. I really 00:59:16.219 --> 00:59:19.099 never heard Boo from him, you know, and then 00:59:19.099 --> 00:59:22.039 I got that call and you know when the final report 00:59:22.039 --> 00:59:25.019 went in and he read it and he just yeah He just 00:59:25.019 --> 00:59:28.539 said a great case kid, you know, like that's 00:59:28.539 --> 00:59:31.480 this is this is what we want our our men and 00:59:31.480 --> 00:59:33.940 women doing you know, fantastic that was he was 00:59:33.940 --> 00:59:36.619 a Very inspirational leader. And it doesn't surprise 00:59:36.619 --> 00:59:39.960 me at all that he said that to you. Yeah, I was 00:59:39.960 --> 00:59:42.179 I was real happy because there was a lot of rocky 00:59:42.179 --> 00:59:44.320 roads, right? You know, there was, you know, 00:59:44.340 --> 00:59:47.599 that path was not easy to get to that point. 00:59:47.659 --> 00:59:49.780 Sometimes when you do those habitat cases, you 00:59:49.780 --> 00:59:51.679 feel like you're really exposed and you're really 00:59:51.679 --> 00:59:54.840 out there on your own. Yeah, I think, you know, 00:59:54.940 --> 00:59:58.000 some of you know. We're going to have an agent 00:59:58.000 --> 01:00:01.000 on eventually named Sean Mann, and, you know, 01:00:01.000 --> 01:00:03.139 he was doing a habitat case and had a guy draw 01:00:03.139 --> 01:00:06.239 a gun on him. almost gets in a shootout over 01:00:06.239 --> 01:00:10.940 a habitat case. Yeah, I know. Crazy stuff. That 01:00:10.940 --> 01:00:14.340 was Northern California as well. Steve, I know 01:00:14.340 --> 01:00:16.320 we could talk about this all day. There's a lot 01:00:16.320 --> 01:00:19.639 more to this case. We've got limited time here, 01:00:19.639 --> 01:00:22.320 but you also have a ton more stories to tell 01:00:22.320 --> 01:00:24.800 and I hope you'll come back on the show in future 01:00:24.800 --> 01:00:29.480 episodes down the road. I will, I will. Because 01:00:29.480 --> 01:00:31.519 I will force you to do it even if you didn't 01:00:31.519 --> 01:00:36.579 want to. So that'll do it for today's episode 01:00:36.579 --> 01:00:38.940 of Nature's Secret Service. I want to thank our 01:00:38.940 --> 01:00:41.599 guest, Steve Fur. Thank you so much for your 01:00:41.599 --> 01:00:43.760 time. I really appreciate you being with us today. 01:00:44.199 --> 01:00:48.079 And we'll see everybody next time. Nature's Secret 01:00:48.079 --> 01:00:50.780 Service is written and produced by me, Ed Newcomer, 01:00:51.000 --> 01:00:53.900 and is co -produced by the DHTV team here at 01:00:53.900 --> 01:00:56.119 California State University Dominguez Hills. 01:00:56.440 --> 01:00:58.480 Follow us on social media and connect with us 01:00:58.480 --> 01:01:00.760 online at naturessecretservice .com.