WEBVTT 00:00:01.719 --> 00:00:03.680 If you want to learn more about what we talked 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:07.099 about on today's episode go to the podcast website 00:00:07.099 --> 00:00:11.199 at naturessecretservice .com Thanks for listening 00:00:34.909 --> 00:00:37.369 All right, this is Nature's Secret Service, the 00:00:37.369 --> 00:00:39.170 podcast that puts you in the room with the men 00:00:39.170 --> 00:00:42.009 and women of wildlife law enforcement. We're 00:00:42.009 --> 00:00:45.149 back this week for part two with our interview 00:00:45.149 --> 00:00:47.530 with Keith Swindle, former special agent with 00:00:47.530 --> 00:00:50.009 the US Fish and Wildlife Service. If you tuned 00:00:50.009 --> 00:00:53.409 in last week, you know that Keith was working 00:00:53.409 --> 00:00:56.710 on an important case in Hawaii involving the 00:00:56.710 --> 00:01:00.729 Newell's shear water and a petrol boat. The petrol 00:01:00.729 --> 00:01:03.310 listed as endangered and the Newell's shear water 00:01:03.310 --> 00:01:06.459 listed as threatened under the Endangered Species 00:01:06.459 --> 00:01:09.560 Act. And just as we wrapped up last time, he 00:01:09.560 --> 00:01:13.019 was telling us that he landed in Kauai and basically 00:01:13.019 --> 00:01:16.219 embarked on a 10 -year criminal investigation 00:01:16.219 --> 00:01:20.060 to determine whether or not any wildlife laws 00:01:20.060 --> 00:01:22.439 had been violated with regard to the take of 00:01:22.439 --> 00:01:25.599 shearwaters. And just another brief refresher. 00:01:26.099 --> 00:01:29.659 These shearwater birds, it's difficult for them 00:01:29.659 --> 00:01:32.319 to take off. They often take off from high places 00:01:32.319 --> 00:01:35.840 in Hawaii. In the fall the chicks make their 00:01:35.840 --> 00:01:38.879 initial flight at night, and they're often distracted 00:01:38.879 --> 00:01:42.239 by bright lights Confusing it for the moon or 00:01:42.239 --> 00:01:44.400 stars and that causes them to crash into the 00:01:44.400 --> 00:01:47.840 land Before they make it out to sea and that 00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:50.819 can result in tens of thousands of birds losing 00:01:50.819 --> 00:01:54.060 their lives Essentially being taken under the 00:01:54.060 --> 00:01:55.939 endangered species act so welcome back Keith. 00:01:55.939 --> 00:01:58.540 Thanks for being back for Episode two, you're 00:01:58.540 --> 00:02:00.420 wearing the same shirt. So everybody knows we 00:02:00.420 --> 00:02:02.700 recorded this on the same day. We're just splitting 00:02:02.700 --> 00:02:11.800 it into two. But thanks for being back. All right. 00:02:12.039 --> 00:02:15.580 So just as we ended our last episode, you were 00:02:15.580 --> 00:02:17.860 about to tell us that you this took 10 years. 00:02:17.939 --> 00:02:22.000 Okay. So we know you arrive. Your goal now is 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:24.669 to start documenting things to what you've described 00:02:24.669 --> 00:02:27.150 to me before as a law enforcement standard, right? 00:02:27.469 --> 00:02:29.069 You're going to start documenting what's happening 00:02:29.069 --> 00:02:31.289 to these birds to a law enforcement standard. 00:02:32.129 --> 00:02:34.729 What does that look like? Tell us about like, 00:02:34.889 --> 00:02:39.550 yeah, how do you go about this launch? Yeah, 00:02:39.770 --> 00:02:45.509 so, so because most of the fallout of these seabirds 00:02:45.509 --> 00:02:48.530 occurred during the new moon of October, and 00:02:48.530 --> 00:02:51.960 then again, in the new moon of November. But 00:02:51.960 --> 00:02:55.340 for 10 years, every October, I would go over 00:02:55.340 --> 00:02:57.259 to Kauai, you know, because I lived on Oahu. 00:02:57.699 --> 00:03:01.819 And then I would spend essentially sunset to 00:03:01.819 --> 00:03:06.699 sunrise looking for shearwaters and petrels. 00:03:08.060 --> 00:03:10.979 And I would drive the entire island, you know, 00:03:11.080 --> 00:03:14.639 drive all the whole road system. And there were 00:03:14.639 --> 00:03:18.319 what we called hot spots. Conveniently, what 00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:22.090 even the people that that managed the hotspots, 00:03:22.289 --> 00:03:26.129 referred to them as hotspots because they knew 00:03:26.129 --> 00:03:31.509 that this is where all this happened. And those 00:03:31.509 --> 00:03:34.669 places were a couple of spots where power lines 00:03:34.669 --> 00:03:41.810 were aligned in a way. So one way to describe 00:03:41.810 --> 00:03:44.389 it is if you imagine power lines going down the 00:03:44.389 --> 00:03:48.379 road, If they were arranged like a volleyball 00:03:48.379 --> 00:03:52.000 net, in other words, you know, vertically. So 00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:54.620 if you have like six lines and there's one and 00:03:54.620 --> 00:03:56.280 then another one above it and another one above 00:03:56.280 --> 00:04:00.300 it all the way up, kind of like a net. That was 00:04:00.300 --> 00:04:05.629 one area. actually is called Kailua Beach on 00:04:05.629 --> 00:04:09.030 Kauai, where that was a hotspot. And it was a 00:04:09.030 --> 00:04:12.550 little valley that came right to the ocean. And 00:04:12.550 --> 00:04:17.410 this net of power lines cross that valley, right, 00:04:17.490 --> 00:04:20.850 right at the mouth. And so it just funneled, 00:04:20.850 --> 00:04:22.649 it was a natural funnel, and the birds would 00:04:22.649 --> 00:04:24.569 fly through there, and then they would clip those 00:04:24.569 --> 00:04:27.310 lines and go down. Doesn't take a rocket scientist 00:04:27.310 --> 00:04:29.350 to know that that's going to catch birds, right? 00:04:29.709 --> 00:04:31.990 You don't you don't have to be a biologist to 00:04:31.990 --> 00:04:33.870 know that birds are gonna follow the the wind 00:04:33.870 --> 00:04:35.949 pattern down a valley and come out right at the 00:04:35.949 --> 00:04:40.089 mouth of yeah Yeah, so consistently every year 00:04:40.089 --> 00:04:42.550 I would find more birds there than I would find 00:04:42.550 --> 00:04:45.629 in other places and that's why we call it a hotspot 00:04:45.629 --> 00:04:48.829 And then there were these that one had no lights 00:04:48.829 --> 00:04:52.949 the other problem were areas with with unshielded 00:04:52.949 --> 00:04:59.370 lights, okay, and And you know This whole process, 00:04:59.649 --> 00:05:03.310 so let's say there were three football stadiums 00:05:03.310 --> 00:05:07.410 on the island, basically three high schools that 00:05:07.410 --> 00:05:13.269 used facilities and those would be big attractants 00:05:13.269 --> 00:05:17.589 on Friday nights because they would have these 00:05:17.589 --> 00:05:22.339 big, big stadium. Exactly. big stadium sized 00:05:22.339 --> 00:05:26.360 lights and those lights were unshielded. And 00:05:26.360 --> 00:05:29.120 that's what I could see from the mountains. It 00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:31.680 was eight miles away. I could see those lights 00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:34.060 like a beacon. They were the brightest thing 00:05:34.060 --> 00:05:37.439 out there on a moonless night. And if there was 00:05:37.439 --> 00:05:39.680 a moon, they were as bright or brighter than 00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:46.879 the moon. So, yeah. And so I would go around 00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:51.709 and find birds, and most of them were either 00:05:51.709 --> 00:05:55.209 alive or dead. If they were alive, I would collect 00:05:55.209 --> 00:05:58.550 them and take them to the SOS thing or even go 00:05:58.550 --> 00:06:01.629 release them at night if that was in a good place 00:06:01.629 --> 00:06:05.790 for it. Had to be careful about that because 00:06:05.790 --> 00:06:09.290 the attraction of light is so strong in these 00:06:09.290 --> 00:06:12.310 things that if you took one and you let it go 00:06:12.310 --> 00:06:15.689 at the beach and it flew out to sea, as it's 00:06:15.689 --> 00:06:19.550 out on the ocean, if it's a moonless night or 00:06:19.550 --> 00:06:22.949 a new moon, if it's flying around and then it 00:06:22.949 --> 00:06:26.009 sees a big light on land, it'll turn around and 00:06:26.009 --> 00:06:29.009 come back. Oh man, that must be depressing if 00:06:29.009 --> 00:06:34.110 you say that. Yeah. Yeah. So I often didn't release 00:06:34.110 --> 00:06:36.269 them for that reason. What I would do is then 00:06:36.269 --> 00:06:39.310 take them to that whole SOS, save our sheer waters 00:06:39.310 --> 00:06:41.750 kind of mailbox at the fire department kind of 00:06:41.750 --> 00:06:44.769 thing. And then release them in the morning. 00:06:45.870 --> 00:06:51.589 But I would GPS the original location. I would 00:06:51.589 --> 00:06:56.490 photograph it several ways to illustrate if it's 00:06:56.490 --> 00:06:59.959 usually near a light. you know, illustrate the 00:06:59.959 --> 00:07:02.500 light, get an overall shot, get a close -up, 00:07:02.519 --> 00:07:07.819 front ID, GPS it, do all the, you know, who, 00:07:07.879 --> 00:07:10.819 what, where, when, sorts of things. You're documenting 00:07:10.819 --> 00:07:13.139 that type of light there too, right? Like whether 00:07:13.139 --> 00:07:15.279 it's shielded, unshielded, all of that. Exactly. 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:18.959 Okay. Exactly. Yep, yep. And then plotting all 00:07:18.959 --> 00:07:21.920 that, ultimately plotting all that on maps and 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:25.160 things like that. And then figuring out who the 00:07:25.160 --> 00:07:30.600 owner of the light is. And on Kauai, this is 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:34.600 important. On Kauai, the non -private lights 00:07:34.600 --> 00:07:40.680 were pretty much generally two owners. The street 00:07:40.680 --> 00:07:44.139 lights were the power company on that island. 00:07:44.339 --> 00:07:47.959 They managed and maintained the street lights 00:07:47.959 --> 00:07:54.040 on the entire island. And then the other public 00:07:54.040 --> 00:07:57.810 lights, so like you know, county public buildings, 00:07:58.790 --> 00:08:01.269 the football stadiums, which were like public 00:08:01.269 --> 00:08:06.889 schools, some tennis courts, soccer fields, some 00:08:06.889 --> 00:08:11.110 baseball fields, things like that, was the county 00:08:11.110 --> 00:08:15.110 of Kauai. So those were essentially the two entities 00:08:15.110 --> 00:08:18.550 with the majority of the lights that were causing 00:08:18.550 --> 00:08:20.970 problems. And then, of course, the power company 00:08:20.970 --> 00:08:22.709 also maintained some of the power, you know, 00:08:22.750 --> 00:08:31.040 all the power lines. And yeah, so I spent 10 00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:38.700 years of Octobers at night. Working the night 00:08:38.700 --> 00:08:42.960 shift basically, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Brutal. 00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:49.879 And you know, not that complicated, but yeah, 00:08:49.879 --> 00:08:52.360 pretty straightforward. technically not that 00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:56.600 difficult, but just, you know, had to be very 00:08:56.600 --> 00:09:01.399 thorough. Yeah. And that's, that's hard on you 00:09:01.399 --> 00:09:04.480 lived in Oahu, right? And so, yeah, it's hard. 00:09:04.720 --> 00:09:07.179 That's hard on personal life, personal relationships, 00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:09.379 if all of a sudden you disappear, yeah, days, 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:13.639 weeks at a time. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's rough. 00:09:13.940 --> 00:09:18.070 You know, when you're working long nights. You're 00:09:18.070 --> 00:09:20.049 doing this all by yourself, which you know in 00:09:20.049 --> 00:09:22.070 any other agency They probably would have assigned 00:09:22.070 --> 00:09:24.710 half a dozen agents to go over and work on it 00:09:24.710 --> 00:09:31.870 But did you have help from like the public? I 00:09:31.870 --> 00:09:35.610 certainly had allies, you know in terms of groups 00:09:35.610 --> 00:09:38.549 that were interested in saving the species the 00:09:38.549 --> 00:09:42.929 biologists things like that, but you know as 00:09:42.929 --> 00:09:45.559 you probably experience in your career, you know, 00:09:45.559 --> 00:09:49.759 you're kind of a pariah, right? Sometimes you're 00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:55.460 the pariah, yeah. Exactly. Because and that's 00:09:55.460 --> 00:09:58.480 always depends on the day and the moment, right? 00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:02.679 Even with the same person, because, you know, 00:10:02.960 --> 00:10:06.440 when I'm out there kind of being the lightning 00:10:06.440 --> 00:10:12.080 rod of initially, and remind me to come back 00:10:12.080 --> 00:10:14.779 to this, but it started off like an antagonistic 00:10:14.779 --> 00:10:18.240 sort of relationship with the violators. After 00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:21.360 10 years, it ended up being great, really almost 00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:23.960 a partnership, even though I was charging them 00:10:23.960 --> 00:10:29.860 criminally. And I'll try to explain that more. 00:10:33.899 --> 00:10:37.700 Yeah, so I did have others out there and what 00:10:37.700 --> 00:10:41.059 I would try to do is get them to collect information 00:10:41.059 --> 00:10:45.039 like I did. That you know could be used and if 00:10:45.039 --> 00:10:47.139 you know and ultimately perhaps they would testify, 00:10:47.200 --> 00:10:50.919 but I knew that I had to get the main thrust 00:10:50.919 --> 00:10:52.840 of it. You know that was going to be if we ever 00:10:52.840 --> 00:10:57.340 had to charge. I needed to have that you know 00:10:57.340 --> 00:11:01.519 that evidence documented in to an evidentiary 00:11:01.519 --> 00:11:05.659 standard. And so, yeah. Do you ever run into 00:11:05.659 --> 00:11:07.399 any odd characters out there in the middle of 00:11:07.399 --> 00:11:15.639 the night? Yeah. Some of my best intel was some, 00:11:15.639 --> 00:11:19.360 well, there were some homeless folks and then 00:11:19.360 --> 00:11:23.220 there were some just folks out. on the park bench 00:11:23.220 --> 00:11:24.840 because they were drunk and their wife didn't 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:29.940 want them at home. You know, they became good 00:11:29.940 --> 00:11:31.919 sources of information about where the sheer 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:36.240 waters were. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. 00:11:37.299 --> 00:11:41.000 And yeah, in fact, I learned a lot from one of 00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:44.860 those guys. He told me that when he was young, 00:11:45.980 --> 00:11:49.200 this this guy I met outside of one of these football 00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:54.080 stadiums, he was Out I think he was in that category 00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:56.179 of his wife didn't want him at home that late 00:11:56.179 --> 00:12:01.019 at night with that kind of breath and. And he 00:12:01.019 --> 00:12:03.360 said that when he was young they used to have 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:06.059 to stop the football games because there'd be 00:12:06.059 --> 00:12:09.480 so many birds landing on the field, you know. 00:12:10.379 --> 00:12:12.779 So these birds would circle circle circle circle 00:12:12.779 --> 00:12:15.529 and then end up. exhausted and then it would 00:12:15.529 --> 00:12:18.110 land wherever. And there were so many that they 00:12:18.110 --> 00:12:20.330 would actually land in the field of play and 00:12:20.330 --> 00:12:22.169 they would have to stop the game and like shoe 00:12:22.169 --> 00:12:23.850 them off or not shoe them off, but pick them 00:12:23.850 --> 00:12:28.490 up and move them off. Wow. So that kind of speaks 00:12:28.490 --> 00:12:30.230 to, you know, when I was doing it, we were finding 00:12:30.230 --> 00:12:34.509 on just a couple hundred a year. But back in, 00:12:34.549 --> 00:12:38.149 back in 1979, they were finding as many as like 00:12:38.149 --> 00:12:42.149 2 ,500 a year, you know, just in a couple weeks 00:12:42.149 --> 00:12:45.080 span. So by the time you took over the football 00:12:45.080 --> 00:12:47.559 situation it would it would be maybe one or two 00:12:47.559 --> 00:12:50.460 birds a game would come down Whereas this guy 00:12:50.460 --> 00:12:52.580 was telling yeah, and they might stop in the 00:12:52.580 --> 00:12:57.039 game Yeah, yeah, and when and like so one or 00:12:57.039 --> 00:12:59.340 two birds a game would come down and they might 00:12:59.340 --> 00:13:01.799 come down a half mile away From the game, you 00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:04.309 know, even though they're circling it or they 00:13:04.309 --> 00:13:06.850 might come out cut down in the parking lot or 00:13:06.850 --> 00:13:09.889 something like that or sometimes in in the stands 00:13:09.889 --> 00:13:13.210 or on the field maybe one bird but he used to 00:13:13.210 --> 00:13:14.789 say you know we would have to stop because there'd 00:13:14.789 --> 00:13:19.610 be so many birds you know that's actually one 00:13:19.610 --> 00:13:22.250 of those weird that's one of those weird indicators 00:13:22.250 --> 00:13:25.350 it's like non -scientific but it's definitely 00:13:25.350 --> 00:13:27.950 yeah it's it's what we call in the detective 00:13:27.950 --> 00:13:31.419 business a clue But the population is decreasing, 00:13:31.419 --> 00:13:36.179 right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and basically 00:13:36.179 --> 00:13:40.360 we were humanity, you know, was mining these 00:13:40.360 --> 00:13:43.460 birds from the sky, you know, I mean, over time. 00:13:44.500 --> 00:13:47.779 And yeah, interesting. What about you told me 00:13:47.779 --> 00:13:52.519 a story once about some school bus driver? Oh, 00:13:52.519 --> 00:13:58.350 yeah, yeah, you know, I was I was out. Well after 00:13:58.350 --> 00:14:01.450 midnight, I remember I was at a traffic circle 00:14:01.450 --> 00:14:03.669 or a new traffic circle on the island of Kauai. 00:14:06.450 --> 00:14:10.389 And I saw a car, what I thought was either a 00:14:10.389 --> 00:14:13.549 live bird or a carcass across the way, you know, 00:14:13.710 --> 00:14:18.009 and I parked my... car on the opposite side of 00:14:18.009 --> 00:14:19.970 this traffic circle. I was just going to walk 00:14:19.970 --> 00:14:21.990 over and do my thing, you know, photograph it 00:14:21.990 --> 00:14:24.029 and all that kind of stuff. And a school bus, 00:14:24.090 --> 00:14:26.889 like an old style yellow school bus, big, big 00:14:26.889 --> 00:14:29.570 long bus comes driving along, you know, like 00:14:29.570 --> 00:14:32.950 at 2 a .m. or something, you know, maybe 1230 00:14:32.950 --> 00:14:36.429 or something like that. And I see the bus driver 00:14:36.429 --> 00:14:38.870 is this, you know, middle aged woman. She gets 00:14:38.870 --> 00:14:42.529 out and she picks up this sheer water and then 00:14:42.529 --> 00:14:44.669 takes it into the school bus. And then I was 00:14:44.669 --> 00:14:47.169 like, well, First, I was like, well, dang, she's 00:14:47.169 --> 00:14:51.750 getting my evidence. So I went over and talked 00:14:51.750 --> 00:14:54.049 to her. Yeah, and I went over and talked to her. 00:14:54.309 --> 00:14:58.370 And then basically, as I recall, I took the bird 00:14:58.370 --> 00:15:01.009 from her. And we had a really nice conversation. 00:15:01.830 --> 00:15:03.970 And I just wanted to know more about her. And 00:15:03.970 --> 00:15:06.889 she's like, yeah, I'm driving this. I'm the bus 00:15:06.889 --> 00:15:12.120 driver. And I was taking this. moving this bus 00:15:12.120 --> 00:15:14.179 for some reason, I don't remember why, and she 00:15:14.179 --> 00:15:16.539 saw the bird and was going to pick it up and 00:15:16.539 --> 00:15:20.039 take it to the fire station. Just wonderful citizen. 00:15:22.460 --> 00:15:26.179 I told her what I was doing and all that kind 00:15:26.179 --> 00:15:30.559 of thing. This wasn't like an enforcement contact 00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:34.320 at all. But another story, Ed, is I remember 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:37.820 you and I exchanging. You had once told me you 00:15:37.820 --> 00:15:41.080 had a foot pursuit and I was so jealous of that 00:15:41.080 --> 00:15:46.980 so one So one night I'm driving down This road 00:15:46.980 --> 00:15:49.879 real late at night, you know again somewhere 00:15:49.879 --> 00:15:55.720 in the midnight or after hours and All of a sudden 00:15:55.720 --> 00:15:58.419 I thought it was a jar like a mason jar full 00:15:58.419 --> 00:16:01.179 of milk is what I thought it was Because it hit 00:16:01.179 --> 00:16:03.899 the windshield so hard and I was going like 40 00:16:03.899 --> 00:16:06.659 45 miles an hour And it came out of nowhere. 00:16:06.879 --> 00:16:10.539 I didn't see it. But it was just like this bang 00:16:10.539 --> 00:16:13.940 and explosion. And I literally thought the windshield 00:16:13.940 --> 00:16:17.259 was going to be cracked. It was so loud. And 00:16:17.259 --> 00:16:22.960 in a second, the whole windshield had a white 00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:26.740 liquid over it. It just was white and almost 00:16:26.740 --> 00:16:31.539 blocking the whole windshield. And I pull over, 00:16:31.539 --> 00:16:36.639 and I look, and I see up on this little kind 00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:39.980 of hillside off the side of the road, I see two 00:16:39.980 --> 00:16:45.019 people take off running. So I jump out of the 00:16:45.019 --> 00:16:50.100 car and I go in my foot pursuit, man. I am chasing 00:16:50.100 --> 00:16:52.860 these two guys. We're jumping things. We ran 00:16:52.860 --> 00:16:54.539 through a construction site and we're having 00:16:54.539 --> 00:16:59.240 to leap things and all this kind of stuff. And 00:16:59.240 --> 00:17:01.860 then they run through this kind of like little 00:17:01.860 --> 00:17:04.869 doorway. of this construction site or it was 00:17:04.869 --> 00:17:07.890 like one property to the next and it it had I 00:17:07.890 --> 00:17:10.390 had to you had to jump through the doorway like 00:17:10.390 --> 00:17:13.809 you there was like a foot of like lower wall 00:17:13.809 --> 00:17:15.789 or something that you had to jump through so 00:17:15.789 --> 00:17:19.089 I jumped through and I turned left and I'm chasing 00:17:19.089 --> 00:17:22.210 this guy and then I see him run under a streetlight 00:17:22.210 --> 00:17:26.490 and I'm like I think this is a kid you know and 00:17:26.490 --> 00:17:30.529 uh and so I keep running keep running and All 00:17:30.529 --> 00:17:34.109 of a sudden, the guy, which at the time I thought, 00:17:34.490 --> 00:17:37.049 gets tired and he sits down on the grass next 00:17:37.049 --> 00:17:43.349 to the sidewalk. And so I get there and I'm just, 00:17:43.349 --> 00:17:45.470 you know, I'm almost doubled over heaving, you 00:17:45.470 --> 00:17:47.130 know, and he's just sitting there, you know, 00:17:47.190 --> 00:17:50.630 calmly. And it's this kid that's about 14 or 00:17:50.630 --> 00:17:52.849 15. He was a big kid, you know, I mean, he was 00:17:52.849 --> 00:17:55.750 like as big as me, but he's about 14 or 15 years 00:17:55.750 --> 00:18:01.009 old. And you know, I had done the whole police 00:18:01.009 --> 00:18:02.930 and stop and all this kind of stuff when I was 00:18:02.930 --> 00:18:07.250 running. And so I get there and I said to the 00:18:07.250 --> 00:18:08.950 kid, why didn't you stop? And he said, well, 00:18:08.950 --> 00:18:12.849 I don't know. I just wanted to get away. And 00:18:12.849 --> 00:18:17.869 then I said, is this your parents' house? Because 00:18:17.869 --> 00:18:20.190 what he did is he ran and he sat down on the 00:18:20.190 --> 00:18:22.869 lawn next to this. you know, on the sidewalk. 00:18:23.289 --> 00:18:29.869 He said, yeah. And, uh, and, uh, and he, I think 00:18:29.869 --> 00:18:31.849 he said, you know, please don't tell them or 00:18:31.849 --> 00:18:33.930 something like that. You know, well, I said, 00:18:34.049 --> 00:18:36.369 well, what did you throw? You know, and it was 00:18:36.369 --> 00:18:40.650 an egg. And, and I mean, I had, I couldn't believe 00:18:40.650 --> 00:18:43.049 it was an egg, you know, cause like I said, it 00:18:43.049 --> 00:18:44.690 was, I think it was just because I was going 00:18:44.690 --> 00:18:47.450 like 45 miles an hour and they threw it at it. 00:18:47.450 --> 00:18:50.650 And, and then, you know, the, the, the egg white 00:18:50.650 --> 00:18:55.920 just, It went white as soon as it spread out. 00:18:57.460 --> 00:19:00.299 And so anyway, I just said, all right, come with 00:19:00.299 --> 00:19:03.779 me. And we walked back to my car, which was like 00:19:03.779 --> 00:19:07.440 three or four blocks away. I made him, there 00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:09.640 was a hose attached to the school, so I made 00:19:09.640 --> 00:19:13.119 him wash my windshield. And then I was talking 00:19:13.119 --> 00:19:14.339 to him, you know, he said, what are you doing 00:19:14.339 --> 00:19:16.299 here? And why did you throw it? And he said, 00:19:16.299 --> 00:19:19.220 Oh, I thought you were my, my, my friend's brother, 00:19:19.220 --> 00:19:21.539 you know, because I had a similar car or something. 00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:25.099 But anyway, that was my big exciting foot pursuit. 00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:31.400 Nothing compared to yours. That's still a good 00:19:31.400 --> 00:19:33.319 one. That's still a good one in part because 00:19:33.319 --> 00:19:35.660 he handled it perfectly. you know that's that's 00:19:35.660 --> 00:19:38.480 the kind of lesson a teenager needs because you 00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:40.779 know what for all the teenagers listening out 00:19:40.779 --> 00:19:42.519 there never throw an egg at a car because it 00:19:42.519 --> 00:19:45.779 might be a federal agent driving by at that moment 00:19:45.779 --> 00:19:50.640 and i'm telling you if it's official wildlife 00:19:50.640 --> 00:20:00.920 we will pursue you we will catch you That's hilarious. 00:20:00.940 --> 00:20:03.519 That's a classic example of like how different 00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:05.339 stuff happens to you when you're out working 00:20:05.339 --> 00:20:09.700 on a case. Yeah. Well, and then the great thing 00:20:09.700 --> 00:20:11.740 about it was, you know, while I'm making him 00:20:11.740 --> 00:20:14.200 wash my car, he's asking me, you know, what are 00:20:14.200 --> 00:20:16.579 you and what are you doing? And I told him everything, 00:20:16.619 --> 00:20:18.720 you know, I said, I'm over here, you know, picking 00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:22.000 up sheer waters and and, and all that kind of 00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:23.680 stuff. And he said, Oh, yeah, okay. And you know, 00:20:23.700 --> 00:20:26.680 so we had a really nice, nice visit. That's cool. 00:20:27.109 --> 00:20:30.569 Anyway, back to Yeah, that's cool. You definitely 00:20:30.569 --> 00:20:34.069 educated somebody that night. So yeah, back to 00:20:34.069 --> 00:20:37.369 shear waters and petrols now. So during this 00:20:37.369 --> 00:20:39.509 10 years that you're working on this case, you're 00:20:39.509 --> 00:20:41.569 documenting what's happening. You're like, as 00:20:41.569 --> 00:20:46.829 you said, to an evidentiary standard. You know, 00:20:46.829 --> 00:20:49.269 a lot of times, as we talked about earlier, people 00:20:49.269 --> 00:20:52.390 think federal agents are often characterized 00:20:52.390 --> 00:20:56.690 by bad guys always, but heavy handed, you know, 00:20:58.250 --> 00:21:00.890 you know not thinking robots who move forward 00:21:00.890 --> 00:21:06.470 and take action and but really Yes, you are documenting 00:21:06.470 --> 00:21:10.289 what's happening, but during this ten years Tell 00:21:10.289 --> 00:21:13.029 us what what were you doing to try to were you 00:21:13.029 --> 00:21:15.250 working with the potential violators these two 00:21:15.250 --> 00:21:18.569 power companies and yeah, why Yeah, does that 00:21:18.569 --> 00:21:21.549 look like yeah. Yeah, so it was a power company 00:21:21.549 --> 00:21:24.559 and then the county government and And yeah, 00:21:24.579 --> 00:21:26.859 almost from day one, you know, I mean, as soon 00:21:26.859 --> 00:21:30.400 as I actually had like my first understanding 00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:34.579 that yeah, this is actually a violation. I contacted 00:21:34.579 --> 00:21:38.339 both the county and the power company. Most of 00:21:38.339 --> 00:21:41.619 the early dealings were the power company. And 00:21:41.619 --> 00:21:44.500 which it was initially it was Kauai Electric, 00:21:44.539 --> 00:21:47.019 but then they became a co -op and it was Kauai 00:21:47.019 --> 00:21:51.440 Island Utility Cooperative. And you know, I was 00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:54.990 approaching them with Basically, some of the 00:21:54.990 --> 00:21:59.650 consequence in my mind at that time was a civil 00:21:59.650 --> 00:22:02.869 penalty or a civil proceeding if we had to get 00:22:02.869 --> 00:22:07.630 there, if they didn't comply. So I worked with 00:22:07.630 --> 00:22:15.650 them for eight years on that. And they took the 00:22:15.650 --> 00:22:20.259 normal kind of tack of Again, back to our quote 00:22:20.259 --> 00:22:22.619 without enforcement, the law is just advice. 00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:26.099 Well, with the threat of enforcement, that threats 00:22:26.099 --> 00:22:28.779 got to be real or they're not really going to 00:22:28.779 --> 00:22:38.900 comply. 100%. What they did is they had eye dollar 00:22:38.900 --> 00:22:43.059 attorneys, which I wish in hindsight, I wish 00:22:43.059 --> 00:22:45.220 we could have dispensed with those right away. 00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:47.640 could have just gotten down to brass tacks and 00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:50.460 fix the problem. Instead, you know, their attorneys 00:22:50.460 --> 00:22:53.859 basically look for the ways to do this the cheapest 00:22:53.859 --> 00:22:57.119 or to get out to do is just enough to make me 00:22:57.119 --> 00:23:00.259 go away. You know, and, and then eventually, 00:23:00.259 --> 00:23:02.279 you know, they realized I wasn't going away. 00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:04.500 So they had to keep doing more. And then they 00:23:04.500 --> 00:23:07.500 just wouldn't get over the bar and actually comply 00:23:07.500 --> 00:23:10.940 with the law and do what it took to comply. What 00:23:10.940 --> 00:23:14.819 sort of what sort of mitigation or what sort 00:23:14.819 --> 00:23:16.380 of things were you trying to get them to do? 00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:21.440 Yeah, yeah. So I'll tell you what they did do 00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:23.619 over like eight years, which is a lot, you know, 00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:29.720 so so initially, they shielded all over 3000 00:23:29.720 --> 00:23:34.000 streetlights on the island. Okay. Yeah, which 00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:36.019 was essentially every streetlight on the island 00:23:36.019 --> 00:23:39.940 for the most part. And they they replaced and 00:23:39.940 --> 00:23:45.319 shielded those. Now that's I'm not sure exactly. 00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:46.900 I don't recall how they did it. I don't know 00:23:46.900 --> 00:23:48.680 if there was a federal highway project involved, 00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:52.660 which means that maybe tax dollars did the actual 00:23:52.660 --> 00:24:00.420 thing, did most of the costs of things. But nevertheless, 00:24:01.500 --> 00:24:04.960 they replaced the lights with shielded lights, 00:24:05.019 --> 00:24:13.599 which was a great first step. I let them know 00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:16.900 of an opportunity and they spent $80 ,000 to 00:24:16.900 --> 00:24:19.940 eradicate rabbits that had been released on an 00:24:19.940 --> 00:24:23.220 offshore islet off of the island of Kauai that 00:24:23.220 --> 00:24:27.099 other seabirds nested on. And these rabbits denuded 00:24:27.099 --> 00:24:31.549 the island. So there was a project that some 00:24:31.549 --> 00:24:35.130 biologists with the state were doing. If they 00:24:35.130 --> 00:24:37.650 had the funding, they could basically eradicate 00:24:37.650 --> 00:24:40.049 the rabbits off that island, which were invasive, 00:24:40.950 --> 00:24:45.569 released there by the Coast Guard like 100 years 00:24:45.569 --> 00:24:50.369 before. and kind of destroyed the vegetation 00:24:50.369 --> 00:24:54.470 of that island. So they funded that and that 00:24:54.470 --> 00:24:56.910 island to this day I believe is free of rabbits 00:24:56.910 --> 00:25:00.170 and the vegetation is recovering and all that 00:25:00.170 --> 00:25:02.390 kind of thing. So the idea there is you're going 00:25:02.390 --> 00:25:08.210 to create alternative nesting sites, right? Yeah, 00:25:08.490 --> 00:25:12.349 exactly. It's kind of like mitigating their take 00:25:12.349 --> 00:25:16.630 by improving conditions for seabirds somewhere. 00:25:17.630 --> 00:25:21.029 Because the ultimate goal and the way to comply 00:25:21.029 --> 00:25:22.650 with the Endangered Species Act is through what 00:25:22.650 --> 00:25:26.529 we call a habitat conservation plan that minimizes 00:25:26.529 --> 00:25:35.750 and mitigates the take of the illegal take. gave 00:25:35.750 --> 00:25:39.710 some money to some offshore island, other offshore 00:25:39.710 --> 00:25:43.829 island conservation projects. When I say offshore, 00:25:44.029 --> 00:25:46.569 I mean, not the main island of Kauai, but other 00:25:46.569 --> 00:25:54.410 islands near the main islands uninhabited. They 00:25:54.410 --> 00:25:59.529 funded some research on protecting colonies because 00:25:59.799 --> 00:26:03.599 where these seabirds nested cats would get in 00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:06.579 and rats would get in and dogs would get in and 00:26:06.579 --> 00:26:10.380 kill them in their nest sites. So we experimented 00:26:10.380 --> 00:26:13.019 or they experimented and they funded supported 00:26:13.019 --> 00:26:17.220 experiments on that kind of stuff. That one beach 00:26:17.220 --> 00:26:21.920 where the volleyball net I described to you occurred, 00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:25.099 they lowered the lines and then they made them 00:26:25.099 --> 00:26:29.319 horizontal. crossed bars on and made them horizontal. 00:26:29.640 --> 00:26:38.619 So fewer lines to intercept. I'm looking at a 00:26:38.619 --> 00:26:42.660 list of things that they did. Yeah. These are 00:26:42.660 --> 00:26:45.660 things they did kind of at your urging, like, 00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:47.519 you know, coming in saying, Hey, I'm a special 00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:49.039 agent with the US Fish and Wildlife Service. 00:26:49.220 --> 00:26:51.660 I'm investigating the take of these birds. These 00:26:51.660 --> 00:26:53.940 are some things you guys can and should and do 00:26:53.940 --> 00:26:56.200 immediately to reduce the number of birds you're 00:26:56.200 --> 00:27:00.900 killing. Right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. So basically, 00:27:01.119 --> 00:27:03.980 you know, this and I gotta say this gets this 00:27:03.980 --> 00:27:07.220 gets me because this happens a lot with cases 00:27:07.220 --> 00:27:09.119 that are handled by fish and wildlife agents, 00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:13.160 where we we do with industry, we work with individual 00:27:13.160 --> 00:27:15.740 people, especially when it's an endangered species 00:27:15.740 --> 00:27:20.099 act violation, to try to reduce or stop the damage 00:27:20.099 --> 00:27:22.960 that they're causing before we ever get to criminal 00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:26.480 case, right? It's not uncommon. Yeah, I mean 00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:29.460 you yeah, you did exactly what most agents will 00:27:29.460 --> 00:27:31.319 do We don't walk in and say hey, you're under 00:27:31.319 --> 00:27:34.019 arrest. We're charging you obviously sometimes 00:27:34.019 --> 00:27:37.259 that happens hardcore violators, but if it's 00:27:37.259 --> 00:27:41.259 an industrial thing or You know a take situation 00:27:41.259 --> 00:27:43.339 that can be minimized that wasn't intentional 00:27:43.339 --> 00:27:45.779 to start with we don't come in heavy -handed 00:27:45.779 --> 00:27:47.880 Yeah, we only come in heavy -handed. Yeah do 00:27:47.880 --> 00:27:52.680 not cooperate Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so all 00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:56.140 of this time, they're doing these things because 00:27:56.140 --> 00:28:00.839 their argument was that they're doing these things 00:28:00.839 --> 00:28:03.799 to basically buy time so that they could develop 00:28:03.799 --> 00:28:06.220 a habitat conservation plan to actually comply 00:28:06.220 --> 00:28:11.079 with the law. Got it. So while I'm talking to 00:28:11.079 --> 00:28:13.740 them, they're also having negotiations with Fish 00:28:13.740 --> 00:28:17.119 and Wildlife Service biologists to develop a 00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:23.269 plan that would mitigate for all of their take, 00:28:23.650 --> 00:28:25.910 but I'm still kind of like, I'm not pleased. 00:28:26.269 --> 00:28:28.150 I tell them, you know, we could write a plan 00:28:28.150 --> 00:28:34.289 today. Why is it taking four years or six years 00:28:34.289 --> 00:28:39.509 or ultimately eight years? And so they were doing 00:28:39.509 --> 00:28:44.019 these things essentially to appease me. You know 00:28:44.019 --> 00:28:47.059 to kind of keep the threat of an actual enforcement 00:28:47.059 --> 00:28:52.740 at bay while they just delay, you know and especially 00:28:52.740 --> 00:28:55.980 In Hawaii when you know, I came from the mainland, 00:28:56.039 --> 00:28:59.180 right? I'm not not native Hawaiian and I wasn't 00:28:59.180 --> 00:29:02.940 born in Hawaii I used to be told to my face. 00:29:02.940 --> 00:29:06.259 Well, you know, you're gonna be gone in two years 00:29:06.259 --> 00:29:12.039 They're gonna wait you out and so Exactly. Exactly. 00:29:12.519 --> 00:29:21.140 So I wasn't. I stayed for nearly 20 years. So 00:29:21.140 --> 00:29:25.440 basically, what we ended up doing, and enter 00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:30.029 some fantastic attorneys, I need to give a call 00:29:30.029 --> 00:29:33.569 out to Carolyn Lown, who was a solicitor with 00:29:33.569 --> 00:29:37.890 the Department of Interior. And then Eleanor 00:29:37.890 --> 00:29:41.170 Colborne was a Department of Justice prosecutor, 00:29:42.170 --> 00:29:47.910 criminal prosecutor. Eleanor is the reason that 00:29:47.910 --> 00:29:51.269 this all really happened. I mean, I did the evidence 00:29:51.269 --> 00:29:54.990 collection, but the rest of the story really 00:29:54.990 --> 00:30:01.089 is due to Eleanor. And as you know, you know, 00:30:01.150 --> 00:30:03.230 yeah, nothing happens without a good prosecutor 00:30:03.230 --> 00:30:06.890 behind you, right? Yeah, and as you know, and 00:30:06.890 --> 00:30:09.289 we had the great pleasure and honor of knowing 00:30:09.289 --> 00:30:11.930 people like Bob Anderson and John Webb and Eleanor 00:30:11.930 --> 00:30:16.230 Colborne, you know, I think the three greatest 00:30:16.230 --> 00:30:20.029 wildlife attorneys that the US has ever had in 00:30:20.029 --> 00:30:25.869 my view. Eleanor definitely on one of my cases 00:30:25.869 --> 00:30:29.730 that stalled Eleanor definitely made things happen. 00:30:30.029 --> 00:30:33.130 You know, she got, she helped us get a really 00:30:33.130 --> 00:30:35.970 bad wanted fugitive back from Mexico. If it wasn't 00:30:35.970 --> 00:30:38.269 for her, we wouldn't have gotten him back. Yeah. 00:30:38.910 --> 00:30:46.130 Yep. Yep. So Eleanor, I basically reached out 00:30:46.130 --> 00:30:50.470 to Eleanor and got her involved through the assistance 00:30:50.470 --> 00:30:55.069 of other other attorneys that I knew. And we 00:30:55.069 --> 00:30:58.269 were kind of at our wits end. We had tried essentially 00:30:58.269 --> 00:31:02.869 eight years of trying to get compliance voluntarily 00:31:02.869 --> 00:31:07.890 and trying to work with them and trying to just 00:31:07.890 --> 00:31:11.450 get compliance. And compliance meaning that they 00:31:11.450 --> 00:31:13.470 would do all of the minimization, which would 00:31:13.470 --> 00:31:15.730 be shielding all the lights and then lowering 00:31:15.730 --> 00:31:18.049 the lines or whatever needed to be done with 00:31:18.049 --> 00:31:20.390 the power lines. But there's always going to 00:31:20.390 --> 00:31:23.819 be some level of take in these sorts of situations. 00:31:24.200 --> 00:31:27.200 So they have to mitigate for that. And that means 00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:29.599 they have to do some kind of conservation project 00:31:29.599 --> 00:31:34.099 that ideally compensates for the unintentional 00:31:34.099 --> 00:31:37.180 take. Right. And they just make it's gonna make 00:31:37.180 --> 00:31:40.059 more baby shear water somewhere else to allow 00:31:40.059 --> 00:31:42.799 for this number that's likely to be killed on 00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:47.289 the island. Yeah. Okay. Exactly. Exactly. Perfect 00:31:47.289 --> 00:31:48.849 sense. But they don't want to do. Yeah. And what 00:31:48.849 --> 00:31:53.529 that means. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They say that they 00:31:53.529 --> 00:31:59.470 did. And but the clear decision was delay, you 00:31:59.470 --> 00:32:02.410 know, I mean, became became clear to me. Yeah. 00:32:02.410 --> 00:32:05.029 Well, they said they said it to your face. They 00:32:05.029 --> 00:32:07.769 had a strategy. They're gonna ask you. Yeah. 00:32:08.109 --> 00:32:10.250 Which is a pretty Yeah. Yeah. You know, when 00:32:10.250 --> 00:32:12.089 you're looking at when you're an investigator 00:32:12.089 --> 00:32:14.130 and you're doing a case and somebody says that 00:32:14.130 --> 00:32:17.900 to you, translation is, I'm fine violating the 00:32:17.900 --> 00:32:21.960 law. Yeah, and yeah, that's a stupid thing to 00:32:21.960 --> 00:32:28.799 say to a federal agent. Yeah. Okay, so, so you 00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:33.079 get you get Eleanor on board. And what kind of 00:32:33.079 --> 00:32:35.799 what happened? What kind of charges? Who was 00:32:35.799 --> 00:32:41.440 charged? How does Eleanor said, even though we 00:32:41.440 --> 00:32:43.440 were looking at misdemeanors, the Endangered 00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:48.099 Species Act is a misdemeanor, as is the Migratory 00:32:48.099 --> 00:32:53.289 Bird Treaty Act in this sort of scenario. And 00:32:53.289 --> 00:32:55.390 you know, there's no trafficking going on where 00:32:55.390 --> 00:32:58.470 we can't engage the Lacey act and stuff like 00:32:58.470 --> 00:33:02.210 that. She said, you know, even though this is 00:33:02.210 --> 00:33:05.130 a misdemeanor, we really want the eyes of a grand 00:33:05.130 --> 00:33:08.930 jury on this. So we took it to a grand jury and 00:33:08.930 --> 00:33:13.210 the grand jury returned a true bill against the 00:33:13.210 --> 00:33:17.490 power company. So we indicted the power company 00:33:17.490 --> 00:33:22.109 and about two months. So basically, we were preparing 00:33:22.109 --> 00:33:26.829 for trial, as I recall. And so about two months 00:33:26.829 --> 00:33:28.789 after one more time, Keith, I'm sorry, I gotta 00:33:28.789 --> 00:33:31.630 interrupt, just so in case listeners do not know 00:33:31.630 --> 00:33:34.809 what a grand jury is in the federal and state 00:33:34.809 --> 00:33:37.490 system, a grand jury is basically people from 00:33:37.490 --> 00:33:39.769 the community who are called up just like you 00:33:39.769 --> 00:33:41.849 would be for jury service, but you serve on a 00:33:41.849 --> 00:33:45.069 grand jury for a while. And prosecutors present 00:33:45.069 --> 00:33:48.869 basically their case, or an agent comes in testifies 00:33:48.869 --> 00:33:51.490 and a prosecutor presents what they've got. And 00:33:51.490 --> 00:33:54.609 then it's up to the grand jury members whether 00:33:54.609 --> 00:33:57.930 or not they agree to charge. It's not, again, 00:33:58.009 --> 00:34:00.630 another example of you going the extra mile not 00:34:00.630 --> 00:34:03.089 to be that heavy handed fed, right? You're going 00:34:03.089 --> 00:34:05.269 to let them and these are grand jury members 00:34:05.269 --> 00:34:11.090 from Hawaii. Yeah. Yeah. So they they heard the 00:34:11.090 --> 00:34:13.409 case, and they thought there was enough evidence 00:34:13.409 --> 00:34:18.260 to charge. both companies or just the one so 00:34:18.260 --> 00:34:21.139 that was against it was really two cases one 00:34:21.139 --> 00:34:23.280 against uh the power company and one against 00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:27.420 the county the county what was and as you and 00:34:27.420 --> 00:34:30.059 i have seen so much over our career when we got 00:34:30.059 --> 00:34:33.420 the indictment against the power company um two 00:34:33.420 --> 00:34:36.000 months later the county came knocking on our 00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:38.820 door of course they saw their handwriting on 00:34:38.820 --> 00:34:44.170 the wall yeah Yeah, and they did, but the one 00:34:44.170 --> 00:34:48.090 thing I do want to say is, especially for the 00:34:48.090 --> 00:34:51.889 county, they were great people. They were basically 00:34:51.889 --> 00:34:58.050 looking to fix the problem. I think initially, 00:34:58.969 --> 00:35:03.210 in the beginning of this 10 -year period, first, 00:35:03.289 --> 00:35:05.510 there's this hurdle of convincing them that they're 00:35:05.510 --> 00:35:08.150 actually violating a law because they're just... 00:35:07.800 --> 00:35:11.519 lighting the community and they're just delivering 00:35:11.519 --> 00:35:16.940 power and things like that. But it's getting 00:35:16.940 --> 00:35:19.219 them over that hurdle of, okay, we understand 00:35:19.219 --> 00:35:24.760 that we are causing this and then therefore we 00:35:24.760 --> 00:35:27.519 are responsible, now what do we do about it? 00:35:32.190 --> 00:35:35.409 gotten along better with some of my violators 00:35:35.409 --> 00:35:39.210 than I have with a lot of my colleagues and attorneys. 00:35:40.230 --> 00:35:42.050 And when you say colleagues, you mean chain of 00:35:42.050 --> 00:35:44.130 command people, right, that don't necessarily 00:35:44.130 --> 00:35:49.630 see the... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So 00:35:49.630 --> 00:35:54.130 I really do want to acknowledge the county employees 00:35:54.130 --> 00:35:58.340 and the mayor of that time and and those folks 00:35:58.340 --> 00:36:01.380 and then some of the people within the the power 00:36:01.380 --> 00:36:05.199 company as well. Because they you know, they 00:36:05.199 --> 00:36:07.659 ultimately did do the right thing. But we just 00:36:07.659 --> 00:36:11.699 had to, you know, had to do the arm twist. Sometimes 00:36:11.699 --> 00:36:14.260 you do you have to be the heavy hand in the room. 00:36:14.500 --> 00:36:16.539 So they're they're indicted their chart. Well, 00:36:17.079 --> 00:36:19.460 the power company is charged, the county sees 00:36:19.460 --> 00:36:21.000 the handwriting on the wall. So they come to 00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:23.840 the table. What's the what's the outcome? What's 00:36:23.840 --> 00:36:25.559 the result? after the charges are filed, you 00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:30.900 go to trial or anything? No, they I think once 00:36:30.900 --> 00:36:35.619 the county settled with us and in a in a plea 00:36:35.619 --> 00:36:40.059 agreement. So they they did like a pre pre indictment 00:36:40.059 --> 00:36:43.400 plea. Yeah. Yeah, sometimes sometimes criminals 00:36:43.400 --> 00:36:45.260 will do that. They know that they know an indictment 00:36:45.260 --> 00:36:47.340 is coming. So they'll just say, Hey, I'm willing 00:36:47.340 --> 00:36:50.800 to plead guilty if you don't indict me. So yeah. 00:36:52.820 --> 00:36:54.820 Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's how it happened. 00:36:54.960 --> 00:36:57.440 And then, of course, that put the pressure on 00:36:57.440 --> 00:37:00.719 the power company. So then they, rather than 00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:06.579 go to trial, were willing to do a plea agreement. 00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:15.340 And so we did two different agreements. And let 00:37:15.340 --> 00:37:21.019 me see if I have, I think. Well, I think you 00:37:21.019 --> 00:37:23.960 have the indictments or I mean the press releases 00:37:23.960 --> 00:37:28.719 but basically There were fines, you know fines 00:37:28.719 --> 00:37:34.579 involved restitution and then probation for both 00:37:34.579 --> 00:37:43.760 and So We didn't want To take their money for 00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:46.860 no purpose, you know, so we gave them almost 00:37:46.860 --> 00:37:54.960 symbolic fines for organizations like this. I 00:37:54.960 --> 00:38:00.179 think we did a $15 ,000 fine, which would be 00:38:00.179 --> 00:38:06.119 the MBTA level of fine, where we could have really 00:38:06.119 --> 00:38:10.159 piled on. But what we wanted to do was apply 00:38:10.159 --> 00:38:14.300 what penalties there were into things like restitution. 00:38:17.940 --> 00:38:25.320 So they did, they funded several projects, I 00:38:25.320 --> 00:38:28.219 guess, that were aimed at conserving the birds. 00:38:28.599 --> 00:38:31.699 So what we kind of did in a way is we set up 00:38:31.699 --> 00:38:33.380 the plea agreements. And again, this is kind 00:38:33.380 --> 00:38:35.940 of a brilliance of Eleanor Colborne. We set up 00:38:35.940 --> 00:38:39.659 the plea agreements to essentially be what they 00:38:39.659 --> 00:38:45.840 should have done in an HCP anyway. And it also 00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:52.289 essentially Which at the end of the day is a 00:38:52.289 --> 00:38:56.789 permit to allow you to violate while you're mitigating 00:38:56.789 --> 00:39:05.369 for that violation. So basically it meant funding 00:39:05.369 --> 00:39:09.210 predator proof fences around some seabird colonies. 00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:15.519 And so because cats and dogs and things like 00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:20.880 on other islands, mongooses, they kill so many 00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:25.219 of these seabirds. The concept was if they could 00:39:25.219 --> 00:39:29.119 fence them out and there is this works, it actually 00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:33.699 works. If they fence them out, then the colony 00:39:33.699 --> 00:39:36.760 will be producing so many young, it will compensate 00:39:36.760 --> 00:39:42.329 for them. It will compensate beyond what they're 00:39:42.329 --> 00:39:46.829 taking with lights and power lines and things 00:39:46.829 --> 00:39:50.309 like that. The reason that compensation is valid 00:39:50.309 --> 00:39:58.010 is because creditors were wiping them out. Without 00:39:58.010 --> 00:40:02.849 that intervention, they'd be gone. Honestly, 00:40:02.989 --> 00:40:05.630 I've had seabird biologists and experts tell 00:40:05.630 --> 00:40:09.349 me that this probably may end up resulting in 00:40:09.360 --> 00:40:13.340 possibly saving the species because they are 00:40:13.340 --> 00:40:16.760 being wiped out, you know, but we're at least 00:40:16.760 --> 00:40:20.059 having some postage stamp sized, you know, plots 00:40:20.059 --> 00:40:24.280 of land that are protected and they're, you know, 00:40:24.539 --> 00:40:26.860 increasing within those. That's the concept. 00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:30.219 And they also funded some trends. Yeah. And then 00:40:30.219 --> 00:40:33.960 they also funded trans locations. One is called 00:40:33.960 --> 00:40:38.960 Nihoku, N -I -H -O -K -U. The cool thing though 00:40:38.960 --> 00:40:42.019 to me was, and this is something Eleanor and 00:40:42.019 --> 00:40:48.400 I worked out, was that we made it a requirement, 00:40:48.599 --> 00:40:51.840 part of their probation, that they had to train, 00:40:51.900 --> 00:40:54.280 this is a county I'm talking about, they had 00:40:54.280 --> 00:40:58.579 to train all of their employees, which was 1 00:40:58.579 --> 00:41:03.420 ,344 employees. They had to train them on the 00:41:03.420 --> 00:41:08.960 importance and the ecology and the cultural connection 00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:12.280 of these species. And I did some of those trainings 00:41:12.280 --> 00:41:15.820 myself. Nice. Which was pretty cool. And it was, 00:41:15.820 --> 00:41:18.280 you know, it's one of those deals. I'm glad for 00:41:18.280 --> 00:41:20.619 my special agent training, right? Because these 00:41:20.619 --> 00:41:23.960 are hostile audiences. Exactly. They are hostile 00:41:23.960 --> 00:41:28.599 audiences. That's awesome, though. But that cultural 00:41:28.599 --> 00:41:33.619 connection can be so important. Absolutely. And 00:41:33.619 --> 00:41:35.639 it was cool because these were police, they were 00:41:35.639 --> 00:41:37.460 firefighters, they were bus drivers, they were 00:41:37.460 --> 00:41:39.719 janitors, they were county council members, it 00:41:39.719 --> 00:41:45.619 was the mayor, all that kind of thing. And so 00:41:45.619 --> 00:41:49.480 I would go in and a lot of people would be like 00:41:49.480 --> 00:41:54.000 this, sitting their arms crossed and pissed off 00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:57.780 that they had to be there. And by the end of 00:41:57.780 --> 00:42:01.170 it, they would... the whole demeanor would change 00:42:01.170 --> 00:42:05.329 because I told them these three things. We owe 00:42:05.329 --> 00:42:10.010 it to these shear waters several things. One 00:42:10.010 --> 00:42:13.469 is the fact, like I described last episode, that 00:42:13.469 --> 00:42:16.929 they gave us soil. So everything we eat that 00:42:16.929 --> 00:42:20.250 is grown on these islands is directly related 00:42:20.250 --> 00:42:27.309 to these seabirds historically. Two, every fish 00:42:27.309 --> 00:42:30.820 we eat which any kind of predatory fish, which 00:42:30.820 --> 00:42:38.280 are the tuna and the wahoo and the other predatory 00:42:38.280 --> 00:42:43.420 fish that we love to eat, we owe that to sea 00:42:43.420 --> 00:42:47.130 birds. And here's how. Even today, whether you're 00:42:47.130 --> 00:42:50.869 a sport fisherman in Hawaii or a commercial fisherman, 00:42:51.510 --> 00:42:54.429 the way that you find tuna, with all of our technology, 00:42:54.949 --> 00:42:57.570 the way you find tuna is you see what they call 00:42:57.570 --> 00:43:01.789 a pile of birds on the ocean. And those birds 00:43:01.789 --> 00:43:06.730 are seabirds, sheer waters and petrels. And so 00:43:06.730 --> 00:43:09.849 what you see is a flock of birds. And what's 00:43:09.849 --> 00:43:13.010 going on? is that the tuna are under the surface 00:43:13.010 --> 00:43:16.090 of the ocean, and they're chasing bait fish, 00:43:16.590 --> 00:43:19.610 like a wolf pack, more or less. And then they 00:43:19.610 --> 00:43:23.210 push the bait fish up to the surface. And then 00:43:23.210 --> 00:43:26.750 the seabirds see that, and they come, and they're 00:43:26.750 --> 00:43:30.429 congregating. And then we see the seabirds. So 00:43:30.429 --> 00:43:33.289 what's going on is that the tuna basically are 00:43:33.289 --> 00:43:36.570 revealing their location by driving up the bait 00:43:36.570 --> 00:43:39.730 fish, the small fish, to the surface. The seabirds 00:43:39.730 --> 00:43:42.610 then see them and come, and we see the seabirds, 00:43:42.610 --> 00:43:45.610 and then we go and we fish. So when we bring 00:43:45.610 --> 00:43:50.010 in yellowfin tuna or aji, and when we bring in 00:43:50.010 --> 00:43:57.210 ono or wahoo, that's all due to seabirds. And 00:43:57.210 --> 00:44:02.309 then the third thing is the Hawaiian people almost 00:44:02.309 --> 00:44:07.230 assuredly discovered Hawaii on their first voyage 00:44:07.230 --> 00:44:12.829 from elsewhere in Polynesia by seabirds because 00:44:12.829 --> 00:44:16.590 it's these millions of seabirds that are flying 00:44:16.590 --> 00:44:20.969 to and from the island. I've spoken with Polynesian 00:44:20.969 --> 00:44:25.690 navigators, Nainoa Thompson being the great example, 00:44:26.309 --> 00:44:30.269 and he said, we can get Using the stars and using 00:44:30.269 --> 00:44:33.250 our traditional methods of navigation we can 00:44:33.250 --> 00:44:35.409 get within a couple hundred miles of the island 00:44:35.409 --> 00:44:38.969 You know by crossing thousands of miles of ocean, 00:44:38.969 --> 00:44:41.909 but you said that last hundred and fifty miles 00:44:41.909 --> 00:44:45.670 is crucial Yeah, yeah, and you're gonna miss 00:44:45.670 --> 00:44:48.769 Yeah, yeah, and that's when they start looking 00:44:48.769 --> 00:44:53.210 for other cues like in addition to clouds and 00:44:53.210 --> 00:44:56.309 things like that, but but a lot of it is seabirds 00:44:56.309 --> 00:45:00.260 and Yeah, because these very same species that 00:45:00.260 --> 00:45:04.420 are moving toward the island before sunset are 00:45:04.420 --> 00:45:07.420 traveling across the ocean and then coming to 00:45:07.420 --> 00:45:09.920 land. And that's what they would get their final 00:45:09.920 --> 00:45:14.360 vector off of. That's awesome. Yeah. That is 00:45:14.360 --> 00:45:17.260 awesome. And then one other thing. Yeah. OK, 00:45:17.360 --> 00:45:20.480 go ahead. No, no. One other thing is that the 00:45:20.480 --> 00:45:23.250 Hawaiian people themselves used to more or less 00:45:23.250 --> 00:45:26.650 ranch these species for food. So they come back 00:45:26.650 --> 00:45:30.389 to the same spot. So reliably, Hawaiians could 00:45:30.389 --> 00:45:35.070 know that every year at the same time, in this 00:45:35.070 --> 00:45:38.190 area of forest or area of cliff, there's going 00:45:38.190 --> 00:45:40.829 to be eggs that we can collect. And then after 00:45:40.829 --> 00:45:42.610 a few months, if we come back at a different 00:45:42.610 --> 00:45:44.550 date, there's going to be big fat chicks that 00:45:44.550 --> 00:45:50.309 we can collect and eat. And so literally, Hawaiians 00:45:50.309 --> 00:45:56.139 have the DNA of seabirds in their bones. Well, 00:45:56.380 --> 00:45:58.539 you know, it's a great example of you know, you 00:45:58.539 --> 00:46:01.460 help people understand the why. And it's a lot 00:46:01.460 --> 00:46:04.559 easier to have cooperation. But, you know, kudos 00:46:04.559 --> 00:46:06.619 to you for going to that extra effort effort. 00:46:07.019 --> 00:46:09.440 I think one of the most telling things you ever 00:46:09.440 --> 00:46:12.179 said to me about this case and how you knew you 00:46:12.179 --> 00:46:15.159 made a difference is tell us about what it was 00:46:15.159 --> 00:46:18.320 like to be on that island at night at the beginning 00:46:18.320 --> 00:46:21.880 of your investigation versus at the end. 10 years 00:46:21.880 --> 00:46:26.579 later. Yeah, yeah, thanks for reminding me of 00:46:26.579 --> 00:46:28.639 that. You know, the very first time I went to 00:46:28.639 --> 00:46:32.239 Kauai in about 2001 or 2002, somewhere in that 00:46:32.239 --> 00:46:36.559 neighborhood, there was a light aura over the 00:46:36.559 --> 00:46:38.780 island. You know, if you stood back at the beach 00:46:38.780 --> 00:46:41.650 and then you looked, you could just see over 00:46:41.650 --> 00:46:44.210 the especially over the towns but but the whole 00:46:44.210 --> 00:46:48.409 island kind of colodes in the sky and at the 00:46:48.409 --> 00:46:50.730 end of this investigation after the shielding 00:46:50.730 --> 00:46:52.789 of all the streetlights and after the shielding 00:46:52.789 --> 00:46:55.530 of the stadiums and the tennis courts and everything 00:46:55.530 --> 00:46:58.889 you could see the stars again like really well 00:46:58.889 --> 00:47:03.590 and that was I remember seeing that in about 00:47:04.179 --> 00:47:06.920 2012 or something and thinking, wow, you know, 00:47:06.940 --> 00:47:10.380 that's because of me. Yeah. How often how often 00:47:10.380 --> 00:47:14.280 does light pollution go down? Right? Never. That's 00:47:14.280 --> 00:47:19.239 awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's incredible. 00:47:19.719 --> 00:47:22.119 So I want you know, we're almost out of time 00:47:22.119 --> 00:47:26.000 for for for today. I want to make sure I do mention 00:47:26.000 --> 00:47:29.510 though, that as a result of this case, You know 00:47:29.510 --> 00:47:32.409 so much effort on your part so much success and 00:47:32.409 --> 00:47:34.929 getting cooperation from not just the community 00:47:34.929 --> 00:47:38.150 but the businesses and you know the county and 00:47:38.150 --> 00:47:40.349 the power company there in Hawaii and working 00:47:40.349 --> 00:47:43.090 so well with the biologists at the service and 00:47:43.090 --> 00:47:45.789 the Prosecutors at the US Department of Justice, 00:47:46.269 --> 00:47:48.409 you know you ended up getting what's called the 00:47:48.409 --> 00:47:50.670 conservation champion award from the US Fish 00:47:50.670 --> 00:47:54.400 and Wildlife Service and that is a very prestigious 00:47:54.400 --> 00:47:57.380 award. You're a very humble guy. You like to 00:47:57.380 --> 00:47:59.940 give credit to other people. But I'll tell you, 00:48:00.360 --> 00:48:04.079 when that came out, there is, I have looked, 00:48:04.559 --> 00:48:07.679 there is no record of any special agent ever 00:48:07.679 --> 00:48:10.000 receiving the Conservation Champion Award from 00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:12.559 the US Fish and Wildlife Service as a whole, 00:48:12.559 --> 00:48:16.260 right? And that is a very, very impressive accomplishment 00:48:16.260 --> 00:48:20.179 that I am just... I'm just in awe of and I think, 00:48:20.320 --> 00:48:23.699 you know, well deserved, obviously. But, you 00:48:23.699 --> 00:48:25.760 know, I think it speaks a lot to what you did 00:48:25.760 --> 00:48:27.880 on this case and just how you carried yourself 00:48:27.880 --> 00:48:30.179 in general as a special agent during your career. 00:48:30.880 --> 00:48:33.739 So, you know, on behalf of a guy who loves wildlife 00:48:33.739 --> 00:48:36.179 and the Hawaiian Islands, you know, thanks for 00:48:36.179 --> 00:48:37.940 everything you did on this. I can't believe you 00:48:37.940 --> 00:48:40.119 did it alone. They should have had four or five 00:48:40.119 --> 00:48:42.860 agents including me. over there to help you. 00:48:43.159 --> 00:48:47.059 I would have liked to do that. Anyway, Keith 00:48:47.059 --> 00:48:52.039 is an awesome case. I'm proud to be a colleague 00:48:52.039 --> 00:48:54.860 of yours and a friend of yours. And I really, 00:48:54.860 --> 00:48:56.880 really appreciate you coming on to talk to us 00:48:56.880 --> 00:49:00.619 about it. It's it's it's just to me it's it's 00:49:00.619 --> 00:49:03.219 a different type of law enforcement, but it's 00:49:03.219 --> 00:49:07.230 it's just an amazing case. Good job. No, thanks. 00:49:07.409 --> 00:49:10.289 Thanks. And, and thanks to you for this. I think 00:49:10.289 --> 00:49:13.210 this is cool and much needed. You know, we've 00:49:13.210 --> 00:49:18.070 always been kind of muzzled. Fisher wildlife 00:49:18.070 --> 00:49:20.269 does not do a good job of telling its own story. 00:49:20.489 --> 00:49:23.110 But, you know, I take it that means you'll be 00:49:23.110 --> 00:49:27.289 on another episode. I'd love to be fantastic. 00:49:27.650 --> 00:49:30.409 Awesome. All right. Thanks, Keith. I appreciate 00:49:30.409 --> 00:49:34.070 you being on the show. This is Nature's Secret 00:49:34.070 --> 00:49:36.489 Service. Special thanks to the crew here at California 00:49:36.489 --> 00:49:39.269 State University at Dominguez Hills in Carson, 00:49:39.269 --> 00:49:43.130 California. We'll see you next time. Nature's 00:49:43.130 --> 00:49:45.170 Secret Service is written and produced by me, 00:49:45.289 --> 00:49:48.070 Ed Newcomer, and is co -produced by the DHTV 00:49:48.070 --> 00:49:50.969 team here at California State University, Dominguez 00:49:50.969 --> 00:49:53.269 Hills. Follow us on social media and connect 00:49:53.269 --> 00:49:55.969 with us online at naturessecretservice .com.