WEBVTT 00:00:01.610 --> 00:00:04.009 If you want to learn more about the topics of 00:00:04.009 --> 00:00:07.690 today's episode, visit the podcast website at 00:00:07.690 --> 00:00:10.769 naturessecretservice .com. Thanks for listening. 00:00:35.049 --> 00:00:37.390 This is Nature's Secret Service, the podcast 00:00:37.390 --> 00:00:39.149 that puts you in the room with the men and women 00:00:39.149 --> 00:00:41.729 of wildlife law enforcement. Welcome to this 00:00:41.729 --> 00:00:45.250 week's episode. I'm Ed Newcomer, your host. This 00:00:45.250 --> 00:00:48.210 week, I'm super happy to welcome Keith Swindle, 00:00:48.530 --> 00:00:50.229 former special agent with the U .S. Fish and 00:00:50.229 --> 00:00:54.429 Wildlife Service and biologist by education and 00:00:54.429 --> 00:00:57.829 prior experience. Keith, when he became a special 00:00:57.829 --> 00:00:59.909 agent for the Fish and Wildlife Service, he was 00:00:59.909 --> 00:01:02.189 immediately sent to our Sacramento, California 00:01:02.189 --> 00:01:05.230 field office. but was quickly recruited to go 00:01:05.230 --> 00:01:08.269 work in Honolulu, Hawaii, where he was a field 00:01:08.269 --> 00:01:10.909 agent there and eventually made his way up to 00:01:10.909 --> 00:01:14.349 resident agent in charge of all of the Hawaiian 00:01:14.349 --> 00:01:16.849 Islands district there, which Pacific district 00:01:16.849 --> 00:01:20.950 really, which includes Hawaii, Guam, American 00:01:20.950 --> 00:01:25.250 Samoa, Northern Marianas, and all of the US possessions 00:01:25.250 --> 00:01:27.950 in the Pacific. So big area that he was in charge 00:01:27.950 --> 00:01:31.599 of for a while. He also did a stint at headquarters 00:01:31.599 --> 00:01:33.500 as what's called a desk agent, which means he 00:01:33.500 --> 00:01:35.359 was a special agent that worked at our headquarters 00:01:35.359 --> 00:01:39.140 office and served as a wildlife law enforcement 00:01:39.140 --> 00:01:43.340 attache in Africa covering all of the countries 00:01:43.340 --> 00:01:46.299 in the Horn of Africa, which basically made him 00:01:46.299 --> 00:01:49.700 senior most diplomatic representative of the 00:01:49.700 --> 00:01:52.700 service in that part of Africa. So there's a 00:01:52.700 --> 00:01:55.840 lot we can talk about with Keith. But today we're 00:01:55.840 --> 00:01:57.920 gonna talk about a really interesting case He 00:01:57.920 --> 00:02:00.500 did while he was in Hawaii that actually honestly 00:02:00.500 --> 00:02:03.560 I've been dying to talk to him about in some 00:02:03.560 --> 00:02:06.640 capacity in a public forum for a long time So 00:02:06.640 --> 00:02:09.180 Keith welcome to the podcast. I really appreciate 00:02:09.180 --> 00:02:11.719 you being here You are coming to us remotely 00:02:11.719 --> 00:02:14.259 from your house in Northern, California, but 00:02:14.259 --> 00:02:17.280 thank you so much for making the time to be here 00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:20.319 Thanks a lot. I really appreciate it and I'm 00:02:20.319 --> 00:02:25.319 excited to excited to be on You know, one thing 00:02:25.319 --> 00:02:27.759 I forgot to mention in your stellar background 00:02:27.759 --> 00:02:29.759 is since you retired from the Fish and Wildlife 00:02:29.759 --> 00:02:33.020 Service about what about a year ago, you have 00:02:33.020 --> 00:02:35.659 you're now the executive director of the Autobahn 00:02:35.659 --> 00:02:38.599 Society for Hawaii, which is absolutely the perfect 00:02:38.599 --> 00:02:40.560 fit for you. I was so happy to hear that news. 00:02:41.120 --> 00:02:43.080 So congratulations. That's great. That's great. 00:02:43.719 --> 00:02:46.599 Yeah, thanks. I'm excited for that too. And it's 00:02:46.599 --> 00:02:48.539 been a I've just been doing that for a month 00:02:48.539 --> 00:02:54.430 or two. And it's been a lot of fun. And I'm having 00:02:54.430 --> 00:02:56.710 to kind of commute back and forth right now because 00:02:56.710 --> 00:02:58.610 we have some issues here going on in the mainland. 00:02:58.969 --> 00:03:00.729 That's a tough job to have to have to commute 00:03:00.729 --> 00:03:02.729 back and forth between Northern California and 00:03:02.729 --> 00:03:09.090 Hawaii. I'm used to these really difficult locations 00:03:09.090 --> 00:03:16.289 like, you know, Nairobi, Kenya, Honolulu. You 00:03:16.289 --> 00:03:18.370 definitely suffered in your career, didn't you? 00:03:22.750 --> 00:03:26.110 So you know We've talked about this you and I 00:03:26.110 --> 00:03:27.870 before because we've known each other our whole 00:03:27.870 --> 00:03:32.129 careers as agents and we're friends You know 00:03:32.129 --> 00:03:34.310 one of the cool things about being an agent with 00:03:34.310 --> 00:03:37.569 the Fish and Wildlife Service is there's a Historically, 00:03:37.569 --> 00:03:39.810 there's a pretty diverse background among agents 00:03:39.810 --> 00:03:43.090 particularly over the last you know, maybe 25 00:03:43.090 --> 00:03:47.090 years or so and your background, you were a biologist 00:03:47.090 --> 00:03:49.770 and did a lot of endangered species work in the 00:03:49.770 --> 00:03:51.830 northwestern part of the US before you were hired 00:03:51.830 --> 00:03:56.189 as an agent. You know what, just real quick, 00:03:56.449 --> 00:03:58.389 what what drew you to wanting to come over to 00:03:58.389 --> 00:04:00.349 law enforcement from a biologist's background? 00:04:01.349 --> 00:04:05.650 Yeah, you know, I was recruited by by an agent. 00:04:06.090 --> 00:04:09.550 What happened was and this is the along these 00:04:09.550 --> 00:04:11.389 lines like you and I discussed in the past, you 00:04:11.389 --> 00:04:15.229 know, it's such a a cool thing that we've had 00:04:15.229 --> 00:04:17.589 people with diverse backgrounds because that 00:04:17.589 --> 00:04:20.910 background really drives what you do as an agent, 00:04:21.230 --> 00:04:25.970 you know, and really informs that. And that was 00:04:25.970 --> 00:04:29.050 really true for me because I was, as you mentioned, 00:04:29.850 --> 00:04:33.730 a wildlife biologist and a researcher in Oregon. 00:04:34.549 --> 00:04:37.610 and I had a background in northern spotted owls. 00:04:37.610 --> 00:04:40.829 I did a decade of research. I led a few research 00:04:40.829 --> 00:04:46.089 programs on that and worked for the Oregon Cooperative 00:04:46.089 --> 00:04:51.790 Wildlife Research Unit at that time. And because 00:04:51.790 --> 00:04:55.670 of that background, somebody that knew me that 00:04:55.670 --> 00:04:59.209 was working for the US Fish and Wildlife Service 00:04:59.209 --> 00:05:06.000 recruited me to become a an expert witness, because 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:08.860 unbeknownst to me, well, I knew that these cases 00:05:08.860 --> 00:05:10.800 were going on, but I didn't know anything about 00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:13.500 the special agents that were doing them in the 00:05:13.500 --> 00:05:17.180 Pacific Northwest. And basically those agents 00:05:17.180 --> 00:05:22.759 needed expert testimony in some of the cases 00:05:22.759 --> 00:05:25.759 that they were doing on forest birds like the 00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:29.300 northern spotted owl and marbled murrelet. And 00:05:29.300 --> 00:05:33.199 so I was hired to the Fish and Wildlife Service 00:05:33.199 --> 00:05:39.040 as a biologist to provide that expertise. And 00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:42.199 I did that for a couple of years. And then the 00:05:42.199 --> 00:05:45.480 agent came to me one day, and he said, you know, 00:05:45.879 --> 00:05:48.540 do you know how you go into these meetings as 00:05:48.540 --> 00:05:53.800 a biologist? And you go into it. some company 00:05:53.800 --> 00:05:57.019 that is violating maybe the Endangered Species 00:05:57.019 --> 00:05:59.000 Act, and you tell them what they ought to do 00:05:59.000 --> 00:06:02.660 to comply with the law. And then when you walk 00:06:02.660 --> 00:06:05.319 out of the room, you feel their middle fingers 00:06:05.319 --> 00:06:14.449 go up behind your back. And he said, as an agent, 00:06:14.490 --> 00:06:17.410 if you had a badge and a gun, that's a very different 00:06:17.410 --> 00:06:21.930 experience, those types of meetings. And I actually 00:06:21.930 --> 00:06:26.910 got to see that directly. Yeah. And my first 00:06:26.910 --> 00:06:30.750 meeting of the same exact kind of meeting as 00:06:30.750 --> 00:06:35.470 an agent with a badge on my belt and a sidearm, 00:06:35.730 --> 00:06:39.290 instead of maybe just having a consultant with 00:06:39.290 --> 00:06:43.089 the company, like a biological consultant that 00:06:43.089 --> 00:06:49.129 I would meet with, suddenly it's the CEO, it's 00:06:49.129 --> 00:06:53.649 legal counsel, sometimes some extra legal counsel 00:06:53.649 --> 00:06:59.829 from the outside, and then maybe they're consultant 00:06:59.829 --> 00:07:04.310 biologists who would sit in the corner and not 00:07:04.310 --> 00:07:11.500 say anything. So it was a it really was a different 00:07:11.500 --> 00:07:13.399 thing and that's that's kind of what drew me 00:07:13.399 --> 00:07:18.939 in because When I was a researcher, I felt like 00:07:18.939 --> 00:07:21.879 I was ultimately when I was doing endangered 00:07:21.879 --> 00:07:25.220 species work I felt kind of like to look really 00:07:25.220 --> 00:07:28.220 cynically at it like I was documenting the demise 00:07:28.220 --> 00:07:34.829 of species and And when I became a fish and wildlife 00:07:34.829 --> 00:07:37.730 service biologist, I was essentially a regulator. 00:07:39.529 --> 00:07:44.069 And then after just a couple years of that, I 00:07:44.069 --> 00:07:46.089 really felt like I'm just kind of regulating 00:07:46.089 --> 00:07:50.910 my species. You're giving advice. Yeah. That's 00:07:50.910 --> 00:07:55.470 it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So the thing that appealed 00:07:55.470 --> 00:07:59.810 to me, and this is the way that agent that recruited 00:07:59.810 --> 00:08:05.800 me, named Pete Nylander. He said, you know, you 00:08:05.800 --> 00:08:08.959 went from essentially documenting their demise 00:08:08.959 --> 00:08:11.160 to regulating their demise. Now you can actually 00:08:11.160 --> 00:08:15.620 do something about their demise if you work for 00:08:15.620 --> 00:08:17.420 us with the Fish and Wildlife Service Office 00:08:17.420 --> 00:08:21.180 of Law Enforcement. And I felt like that's what 00:08:21.180 --> 00:08:24.199 got me over the edge. I never had a desire to 00:08:24.199 --> 00:08:28.180 be in law enforcement, but that's what put me 00:08:28.180 --> 00:08:32.049 over. Sometimes those turn out to be the best 00:08:32.049 --> 00:08:34.250 agents are the ones who'd have never picked up 00:08:34.250 --> 00:08:36.029 a gun in their life before and you just train 00:08:36.029 --> 00:08:38.590 them the way you want to train them and and You 00:08:38.590 --> 00:08:41.129 know, they bring a different background and mindset 00:08:41.129 --> 00:08:44.990 to the whole thing. I Yeah, I had so many similar 00:08:44.990 --> 00:08:47.110 experiences in Southern California when I was 00:08:47.110 --> 00:08:49.730 an agent there I don't know how you handled it. 00:08:49.730 --> 00:08:51.429 But whenever I would have those meetings with 00:08:51.429 --> 00:08:55.350 the corporations or you know, maybe the Municipalities 00:08:55.350 --> 00:08:57.529 or the you know local governments or whatever 00:08:57.529 --> 00:09:00.059 that were violating Endangered Species Act or 00:09:00.059 --> 00:09:02.600 some other law. I always made a special point 00:09:02.600 --> 00:09:06.100 to wear that, you know, plain black suit with 00:09:06.100 --> 00:09:09.019 the white shirt and the plain tie. And then I'd 00:09:09.019 --> 00:09:11.779 go into the I'd go into the conference room and 00:09:11.779 --> 00:09:14.720 very casually take off my jacket, make sure they 00:09:14.720 --> 00:09:17.139 saw the gun and they saw the badge on my belt. 00:09:17.519 --> 00:09:20.659 And yeah, the attitude and the response you get 00:09:20.659 --> 00:09:23.779 from corporate violators changes dramatically. 00:09:24.139 --> 00:09:27.559 And I've said this so many times in so many settings. 00:09:27.740 --> 00:09:30.519 You know, I'll say it again and anybody who watches 00:09:30.519 --> 00:09:32.500 or listens to this podcast is gonna get tired 00:09:32.500 --> 00:09:35.059 of hearing it but I don't know if you ever heard 00:09:35.059 --> 00:09:37.259 this but one of the great quotes from Abraham 00:09:37.259 --> 00:09:40.179 Lincoln is that the law without enforcement is 00:09:40.179 --> 00:09:43.440 nothing more than good advice and That is so 00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:46.000 true when a biologist is telling you hey this 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:48.899 shouldn't be done. That's advice When a law enforcement 00:09:48.899 --> 00:09:50.980 officer sitting in the room a special agent with 00:09:50.980 --> 00:09:52.720 the federal government is telling you hey you 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:55.500 guys are violating the law That's a different 00:09:55.500 --> 00:09:59.159 message for sure, right? Yeah, absolutely. And 00:09:59.159 --> 00:10:02.019 I'm going to throw you under your own bus here, 00:10:02.539 --> 00:10:07.820 because I remember about 20 years ago, you and 00:10:07.820 --> 00:10:11.840 I were talking about that quote. And because 00:10:11.840 --> 00:10:14.879 I think I maybe I may have had it in a talk or 00:10:14.879 --> 00:10:17.019 something that you saw it or you I don't know 00:10:17.019 --> 00:10:19.820 how it came up. Oh, did I steal it from you? 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:22.919 I maybe I don't know. I might have gotten it 00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:25.240 from you. But what I remember is this conversation 00:10:25.240 --> 00:10:27.000 because this blew me away. And this says a lot 00:10:27.000 --> 00:10:31.779 about you. You you went to the Library of Congress, 00:10:31.899 --> 00:10:37.179 I believe, to find out the origin of that quote 00:10:37.179 --> 00:10:44.409 and to try to get the original the original quotation 00:10:44.409 --> 00:10:46.669 and I can't remember what you found. You found 00:10:46.669 --> 00:10:48.570 that it was attributed to Abraham Lincoln but 00:10:48.570 --> 00:10:51.250 there was no documented record or something like 00:10:51.250 --> 00:10:54.149 that? Is that right? Something like that, yeah. 00:10:54.990 --> 00:10:57.330 Yeah, that all came about because there were 00:10:57.330 --> 00:10:59.529 some actually some people who were attributing 00:10:59.529 --> 00:11:02.830 that quote to a very well -known, very well -respected 00:11:02.990 --> 00:11:05.330 assistant US attorney. And I was like, No, I 00:11:05.330 --> 00:11:07.970 don't think the US attorney said that. I think 00:11:07.970 --> 00:11:10.750 a president of the United States. And you know, 00:11:10.850 --> 00:11:13.529 me, I was determined to go find out exactly where 00:11:13.529 --> 00:11:15.409 that quote came from. I think we probably both 00:11:15.409 --> 00:11:17.870 got it was that was was that Bob Anderson or 00:11:17.870 --> 00:11:20.970 John Webb? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Bob 00:11:20.970 --> 00:11:24.110 Anderson. Yeah. Yeah. Very, very well respected 00:11:24.110 --> 00:11:27.990 and kind of famous. I won't say infamous. He 00:11:27.990 --> 00:11:30.350 was a famous US attorney who worked on absolutely. 00:11:30.809 --> 00:11:34.240 Yeah. so this actually leads in perfectly to 00:11:34.240 --> 00:11:36.019 the discussion I want to have with you today 00:11:36.019 --> 00:11:39.960 and Just if we go long Keith, we'll just turn 00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:42.600 this into a two -parter but so I don't want to 00:11:42.600 --> 00:11:44.360 I don't want you to feel like you're rushed to 00:11:44.360 --> 00:11:46.840 tell the story because this is a good one, but 00:11:46.840 --> 00:11:51.860 you know We're gonna talk today about a bird 00:11:51.860 --> 00:11:54.820 which you know perfect that you worked previously 00:11:54.820 --> 00:11:59.120 on spotted owl stuff And I want you to tell us 00:11:59.120 --> 00:12:01.200 about that bird in a second, but most mostly 00:12:01.470 --> 00:12:03.190 Right now I want to ask you the hard hitting 00:12:03.190 --> 00:12:05.809 question. Why do you hate high school football 00:12:05.809 --> 00:12:14.289 so much? That's a low blow. All right, so you 00:12:14.289 --> 00:12:15.909 don't have to answer because we're going to get 00:12:15.909 --> 00:12:18.110 into the answer to that question. But for right 00:12:18.110 --> 00:12:21.509 now, you know exactly what I'm talking about. 00:12:21.690 --> 00:12:27.009 For right now, tell us what is a Newell's shearwater 00:12:27.009 --> 00:12:29.230 bird? It's a bird. What's a Newell's shearwater? 00:12:29.389 --> 00:12:34.389 Yeah, yeah. And for the record, I love football. 00:12:37.730 --> 00:12:43.789 Yeah, so the Nuala Shearwater is one of a couple 00:12:43.789 --> 00:12:47.789 of species that almost no one knows anything 00:12:47.789 --> 00:12:52.990 about. And it's a species of seabird that is 00:12:52.990 --> 00:12:56.529 endemic to the Hawaiian Islands. In other words, 00:12:56.529 --> 00:13:00.330 it's found nowhere else on Earth. and another 00:13:00.330 --> 00:13:04.830 species called Hawaiian Petrel is also endemic 00:13:04.830 --> 00:13:08.009 to the Hawaiian Islands and they're kind of similar 00:13:08.009 --> 00:13:14.730 in a couple of respects. And one of the amazing 00:13:14.730 --> 00:13:18.370 things, and this is exactly what we were talking 00:13:18.370 --> 00:13:24.370 about, because of my background, I was recruited 00:13:24.370 --> 00:13:29.639 specifically to work this case and that was So 00:13:29.639 --> 00:13:33.559 I was recruited because I knew stuff about spotted 00:13:33.559 --> 00:13:36.980 owls and I became an agent. But on the hiring 00:13:36.980 --> 00:13:41.559 panel of the agents that interviewed us when 00:13:41.559 --> 00:13:47.059 we applied for our job was an agent named Paul 00:13:47.059 --> 00:13:53.879 Chang. And Paul is a native Hawaiian and he was 00:13:53.879 --> 00:13:57.990 on the panel and because I was one of the few 00:13:57.990 --> 00:14:02.490 biologists that was hired in my cohort. And I 00:14:02.490 --> 00:14:06.210 had purely like an endangered species enforcement 00:14:06.210 --> 00:14:11.269 and regulatory background. Paul called me up 00:14:11.269 --> 00:14:14.330 when I was in Sacramento as in my first duty 00:14:14.330 --> 00:14:16.490 station. And he said, I really want you to go 00:14:16.490 --> 00:14:19.549 to Hawaii. I really want you to consider to transfer 00:14:19.549 --> 00:14:25.799 to Hawaii. And I did, ultimately, and he tasked 00:14:25.799 --> 00:14:30.779 me with this case about the Newell Shearwater. 00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:36.480 And another pivotal person, unbeknownst to me, 00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:39.860 but a friend of mine that I knew in the Spotted 00:14:39.860 --> 00:14:43.899 Owl work, was a solicitor for Department of Interior 00:14:43.899 --> 00:14:49.799 named Steve Siegel. And Steve saw kind of a standard 00:14:49.799 --> 00:14:54.970 report come out of the Hawaii Office of the Fish 00:14:54.970 --> 00:14:58.590 and Wildlife Service that mentioned that since 00:14:58.590 --> 00:15:01.990 1979, and this was probably like around 2000, 00:15:02.049 --> 00:15:09.149 the year 2000, since 1979 to 2000, over 30 ,000 00:15:09.149 --> 00:15:14.190 Newell's shearwaters were grounded. In other 00:15:14.190 --> 00:15:16.809 words, they were taken from the sky, more or 00:15:16.809 --> 00:15:22.409 less, for various reasons. And then retrieved 00:15:22.409 --> 00:15:27.250 and many of them released. And Steve Siegel being 00:15:27.250 --> 00:15:30.669 an attorney was like, well, wait a minute, that's 00:15:30.669 --> 00:15:32.909 a threatened species under the Endangered Species 00:15:32.909 --> 00:15:35.350 Act. And it's a migratory bird under the Migratory 00:15:35.350 --> 00:15:39.590 Bird Treaty Act. And when he found out why they 00:15:39.590 --> 00:15:42.870 were being grounded, it was all man, human causes. 00:15:43.769 --> 00:15:48.019 So that was, as you know, you know, what we would 00:15:48.019 --> 00:15:51.740 call take under the Endangered Species Act. And 00:15:51.740 --> 00:15:56.580 so Steve, like I said, it was kind of like a 00:15:56.580 --> 00:15:58.759 routine report coming through, and these reports 00:15:58.759 --> 00:16:01.779 were coming through every year. But it took Steve 00:16:01.779 --> 00:16:03.799 to see it and recognize, well, wait a minute, 00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:06.980 what is this? And it turns out, you know, it's 00:16:06.980 --> 00:16:12.659 probably the largest take of a single land animal 00:16:12.659 --> 00:16:17.269 species, you know. When I say land animal, the 00:16:17.269 --> 00:16:20.070 shearwaters, I'm talking like a vertebrate, not 00:16:20.070 --> 00:16:24.289 a fish. Well, a land vertebrate, not a fish or 00:16:24.289 --> 00:16:26.610 not an insect or something like that that have 00:16:26.610 --> 00:16:32.210 high numbers. I can't think of another incident 00:16:32.210 --> 00:16:37.490 where there's been 30 ,000 of one species that's 00:16:37.490 --> 00:16:39.830 on the Endangered Species Act that was taken 00:16:39.830 --> 00:16:43.779 due to due to humans that wasn't a fish or, or 00:16:43.779 --> 00:16:48.559 something like that. Right, right. So the the 00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:51.759 Newell's Shearwater, and what we'll try to do 00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:54.879 here is I'll get some photos of the Newell's 00:16:54.879 --> 00:16:57.639 Shearwater and the petrol and we'll put them 00:16:57.639 --> 00:17:00.399 on the Nature Seeker Service website so people 00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:02.460 can go see what these things look like. Yeah. 00:17:02.700 --> 00:17:05.980 But basically, when you talk about grounded, 00:17:06.299 --> 00:17:07.880 There's a couple things I want to talk about 00:17:07.880 --> 00:17:09.900 here. One is the law. But the other is when you 00:17:09.900 --> 00:17:13.420 talk about grounded, I think it would help people 00:17:13.420 --> 00:17:15.319 understand what that means really, if you kind 00:17:15.319 --> 00:17:19.400 of describe, you know, the habits or the behaviors 00:17:19.400 --> 00:17:23.799 of your waters and petrols, how do they, you 00:17:23.799 --> 00:17:26.420 know, what's their process of fledging their 00:17:26.420 --> 00:17:30.289 chicks? And what do you mean by grounded? Yeah, 00:17:30.490 --> 00:17:34.089 yeah. So, you know, even though I was a certified 00:17:34.089 --> 00:17:36.329 wildlife biologist, you know, I had never heard 00:17:36.329 --> 00:17:39.789 of a newel shearwater when I went to Hawaii in 00:17:39.789 --> 00:17:46.269 about the year 2001. And so what I'll do is I'll 00:17:46.269 --> 00:17:50.089 tell you exactly, your question is exactly the 00:17:50.089 --> 00:17:52.690 initiation of the process I had to go through 00:17:52.690 --> 00:17:55.450 to figure this out. Because basically, Paul Chang 00:17:57.200 --> 00:17:59.539 Steve Siegel said to Paul Chang, look at this 00:17:59.539 --> 00:18:02.079 problem. Paul Chang knew about the problem from 00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:06.799 when he was a kid in Hawaii, and he really wanted 00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:10.279 somebody to fix that. And so that's what he tasked 00:18:10.279 --> 00:18:15.160 me with doing. And so I moved there knowing, 00:18:15.460 --> 00:18:18.420 I mean, I moved there basically with this commission. 00:18:18.900 --> 00:18:24.369 You got to fix this problem. and uh so nice all 00:18:24.369 --> 00:18:30.329 by yourself by the way right yeah so um so what 00:18:30.329 --> 00:18:33.589 i did is i went around you know i mean just being 00:18:33.589 --> 00:18:36.289 a biologist i knew i needed to find the people 00:18:36.289 --> 00:18:38.990 that knew about the birds you know and i found 00:18:38.990 --> 00:18:42.049 the other biologists the researchers the state 00:18:42.049 --> 00:18:45.950 biologists the federal biologists the university 00:18:45.950 --> 00:18:49.500 researchers that had been doing these studies. 00:18:49.500 --> 00:18:52.700 And we knew, you know, this data that over 30 00:18:52.700 --> 00:18:56.200 ,000 had been grounded, you know, came from somewhere, 00:18:56.200 --> 00:18:59.099 right? So I went and found those people and, 00:18:59.099 --> 00:19:02.079 and talked to them. And the Newell Shearwater 00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:05.740 and grounded grounded you. I'm sorry, grounded, 00:19:05.880 --> 00:19:08.240 you mean, basically, they, they were flying and 00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:10.940 something for some reason, they were knocked 00:19:10.940 --> 00:19:13.579 out of the air, not of their own choice, right? 00:19:13.740 --> 00:19:16.299 They either come down and they're injured, killed 00:19:16.299 --> 00:19:18.900 or Yeah. They just can't get back in the air 00:19:18.900 --> 00:19:23.339 by themselves. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And so Newell 00:19:23.339 --> 00:19:28.380 Shearwaters and Hawaiian Petrels are types of 00:19:28.380 --> 00:19:31.660 seabirds that they kind of need a long runway 00:19:31.660 --> 00:19:37.500 to get going in terms of flight. And so if you, 00:19:37.960 --> 00:19:43.460 unlike a mallard, like a duck, that can jump 00:19:43.460 --> 00:19:47.680 from the water into the air, these would be more 00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:49.980 like some of the diving ducks that have to run 00:19:49.980 --> 00:19:51.900 along the surface of the water before they can 00:19:51.900 --> 00:19:56.519 get airborne. You know, so, sure waters and and 00:19:56.519 --> 00:20:02.660 petrols need a little bit of runway. And so what 00:20:02.660 --> 00:20:05.119 where that's meaningful is that if they're if 00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:08.440 they've come out of the sky for some reason onto 00:20:08.440 --> 00:20:12.420 the land, they either need a drop off or a clear. 00:20:12.619 --> 00:20:17.299 clear runway or a real strong headwind and a 00:20:17.299 --> 00:20:22.140 combination of a drop off to get airborne. These 00:20:22.140 --> 00:20:27.319 two species probably, what few people realize 00:20:27.319 --> 00:20:32.339 these days is that seabirds for the Hawaiian 00:20:32.339 --> 00:20:37.049 islands and the whole Hawaiian archipelago sea 00:20:37.049 --> 00:20:40.049 birds were what I would consider the buffalo 00:20:40.049 --> 00:20:43.950 of those islands in terms of being foundational 00:20:43.950 --> 00:20:48.190 species to that tropical island ecosystem. Like 00:20:48.190 --> 00:20:51.470 buffalo are that foundational species to the 00:20:51.470 --> 00:20:55.170 Great Plains at one time. And we're starting 00:20:55.170 --> 00:20:58.150 now to recognize that role that buffalo played 00:20:58.150 --> 00:21:01.250 in the Great Plains and the prairies and grasslands. 00:21:02.560 --> 00:21:06.500 Well, seabirds were that for tropical islands. 00:21:07.160 --> 00:21:10.920 These islands had no mammals whatsoever on the 00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:14.279 land. There was a, you know, with the exception 00:21:14.279 --> 00:21:19.119 of a small bat and a monk seal, you know, that 00:21:19.119 --> 00:21:22.960 came as far as the beach. But on land, there 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:25.980 were no mammals. But there were tons and tons 00:21:25.980 --> 00:21:30.059 of bird species, especially and the ones that 00:21:30.059 --> 00:21:32.880 I think were foundational were the seabirds. 00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:36.880 For this reason, the Hawaiian Islands were volcanoes 00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:38.980 that popped up out of the middle of the ocean. 00:21:39.859 --> 00:21:44.400 So imagine an eruption and this this volcano 00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:48.039 appears and what you have is nothing but rock. 00:21:48.500 --> 00:21:52.160 Two thousand miles, you know, a couple thousand 00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:58.660 miles away from from any continent. And the only 00:21:58.660 --> 00:22:01.359 thing, if you think about creating soil out of 00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:07.299 rock, the only things we have are wind and rain 00:22:07.299 --> 00:22:12.380 and sun. But then if you add in seabirds that 00:22:12.380 --> 00:22:15.799 would colonize the island, they would bring... 00:22:17.389 --> 00:22:21.329 tons of nutrients to these islands. And if you 00:22:21.329 --> 00:22:23.769 imagine a volcano in the middle of the ocean, 00:22:23.930 --> 00:22:27.549 it's bare rock. And then you populate that with 00:22:27.549 --> 00:22:30.869 almost two dozen species of seabirds in their 00:22:30.869 --> 00:22:36.849 millions from beach to mountaintop. And then 00:22:36.849 --> 00:22:39.710 those seabirds are making daily flights out to 00:22:39.710 --> 00:22:42.309 catch squid and fish and other things in the 00:22:42.309 --> 00:22:45.269 ocean. And then they come back and they defecate. 00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:49.539 you know, all birds defecate and urinate pretty 00:22:49.539 --> 00:22:54.519 much at the same time. So there's uric acid when 00:22:54.519 --> 00:22:56.799 they defecate. So they like add a little bit 00:22:56.799 --> 00:23:00.539 of acid and a bunch of nutrients. And that acid 00:23:00.539 --> 00:23:06.799 helps the rain break down volcanic rock. Fascinating. 00:23:07.180 --> 00:23:09.460 Yeah. So if you, and then you compound this out 00:23:09.460 --> 00:23:14.980 over time, you know, basically we owe seabirds 00:23:14.940 --> 00:23:20.119 the fact that we have soil on a lot of these 00:23:20.119 --> 00:23:25.759 islands. Right. So really a critical component 00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:30.900 to the ecology of the islands. And that was true 00:23:30.900 --> 00:23:33.839 of a bunch of different species. So now back 00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:37.720 to your original question. So cool. What's unique 00:23:37.720 --> 00:23:39.759 about the Newell's Shearwater and the Hawaiian 00:23:39.759 --> 00:23:42.099 Petrel is that there were two of the seabird 00:23:42.099 --> 00:23:45.400 species that could breed way up in the mountains, 00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:51.539 which is in itself just incredible. Because you 00:23:51.539 --> 00:23:58.480 imagine you're on the ocean in Hawaii, and it's 00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:01.980 85 degrees or something like that. And then you 00:24:01.980 --> 00:24:06.599 fly up. to like 10 ,000 feet on top of one of 00:24:06.599 --> 00:24:09.180 the islands, like the Big Island or on Maui, 00:24:09.299 --> 00:24:12.019 maybe even higher than that. And then that's 00:24:12.019 --> 00:24:16.319 where your nest is. Sub -zero at night, or I 00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:18.279 mean sub -freezing at night at least, you know, 00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:23.920 maybe in the 20 degrees. And then to feed your 00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:27.220 chick, if you're the Hawaiian Petrel, for example, 00:24:27.700 --> 00:24:31.980 you're going to fly almost to California or to 00:24:31.980 --> 00:24:35.819 the Aleutian Islands. And in one feeding trip, 00:24:36.079 --> 00:24:39.380 like you go out, you catch fish up in, you know, 00:24:39.579 --> 00:24:42.700 south of Alaska. And then you fly all the way 00:24:42.700 --> 00:24:46.640 back to your nest 10 ,000 feet up on this volcano. 00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:50.640 You know, it's just that's crazy. It is crazy. 00:24:50.839 --> 00:24:54.460 It is crazy. So anyway, that's some of the cool 00:24:54.460 --> 00:24:58.420 stuff about those birds. But they're they are 00:24:58.420 --> 00:25:02.619 nocturnal when they go to nest. So the only time 00:25:02.619 --> 00:25:06.599 that they come to land is as the sun is setting 00:25:06.599 --> 00:25:12.240 and after dark. And I don't entirely understand 00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:14.660 why that is. There may have been some ancient 00:25:14.660 --> 00:25:19.359 predator in the daytime that's extinct now that 00:25:19.359 --> 00:25:22.960 maybe made them that way. But for whatever reason, 00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:26.980 they come in at night and they also leave at 00:25:26.980 --> 00:25:33.160 night or leave before daylight to go out to sea. 00:25:33.579 --> 00:25:38.569 And what happens is for both species, They raise 00:25:38.569 --> 00:25:43.009 one chick in this hole in the ground up high 00:25:43.009 --> 00:25:45.990 in these mountains, some of which are forested 00:25:45.990 --> 00:25:49.950 and some are just barren, like looking like Mars, 00:25:49.970 --> 00:25:54.539 like up on Mauna Loa, for example. And when it's 00:25:54.539 --> 00:25:56.859 barren, they're nesting in a little lava tube 00:25:56.859 --> 00:25:59.200 or a little crevice or something under the rock 00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:03.180 so they can get some shade. When it's vegetated, 00:26:03.180 --> 00:26:06.839 they might burrow down into the soil or the roots 00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:10.880 of plants, or even on the surface under plants. 00:26:12.039 --> 00:26:16.299 But then they raise this one chick starting in 00:26:16.299 --> 00:26:21.099 late spring. And then that one chick is there. 00:26:21.519 --> 00:26:28.720 Their only egg is literally in one basket. And 00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:36.440 then come October, those chicks mature enough 00:26:36.440 --> 00:26:42.599 to make their maiden voyage out to sea. And they 00:26:42.599 --> 00:26:47.000 have one shot at it. They're not like a lot of 00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:49.980 other birds where they can. try to fly and then 00:26:49.980 --> 00:26:53.640 fail and then perch somewhere and then and then 00:26:53.640 --> 00:26:56.920 you know get fed again and and that sort of thing 00:26:56.920 --> 00:26:59.119 they have to wait till they can actually they're 00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:03.299 gonna yeah they're gonna launch off their their 00:27:03.299 --> 00:27:05.920 cliffside nest and if they don't if they don't 00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:08.400 make it they ain't taken off again basically 00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:13.299 right exactly exactly and so They get airborne 00:27:13.299 --> 00:27:17.660 often by climbing. They'll literally climb trees. 00:27:17.740 --> 00:27:21.519 They'll climb brush. They'll climb rocks. And 00:27:21.519 --> 00:27:23.819 then they'll get a little bit of height that 00:27:23.819 --> 00:27:26.299 way. And if the wind is right, they'll launch. 00:27:26.980 --> 00:27:31.059 And then they're airborne. This is at night, 00:27:31.180 --> 00:27:35.740 right? Yeah. And that flight, they have to make 00:27:35.740 --> 00:27:38.380 it to the ocean. If they don't make it to the 00:27:38.380 --> 00:27:45.549 ocean, they're pretty much toast. And so what 00:27:45.549 --> 00:27:50.990 we think happens is they navigate by moonlight 00:27:50.990 --> 00:27:56.170 and starlight, and they fly out toward the ocean. 00:27:57.230 --> 00:28:00.930 So this flight could be from the center of these 00:28:00.930 --> 00:28:04.089 islands. It might be 10, 12 miles or just a couple 00:28:04.089 --> 00:28:09.609 miles. But anything in their way is a problem. 00:28:10.909 --> 00:28:17.750 And so as they come down, if there's power lines 00:28:17.750 --> 00:28:20.150 in their way that they can't see in time, and 00:28:20.150 --> 00:28:22.990 they have good night vision, but not perfect, 00:28:23.950 --> 00:28:27.069 and bear in mind, it's their first flight. They're 00:28:27.069 --> 00:28:34.710 not that great at maneuvering. And then the one 00:28:34.710 --> 00:28:37.609 phenomenon which causes what we call this grounding 00:28:37.609 --> 00:28:42.240 or fallout. we would call it fallout, is light 00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:47.960 attraction. So like a moth to a light, Newell's 00:28:47.960 --> 00:28:51.240 shearwaters and some other sea birds that are 00:28:51.240 --> 00:28:57.119 nocturnal will see a light and they'll start 00:28:57.119 --> 00:29:02.900 to circle it. And so these are unshielded lights. 00:29:03.519 --> 00:29:05.920 And you have to think about a light, like if 00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:10.119 you're looking at a street light, If you are 00:29:10.119 --> 00:29:13.259 above the level of the light and you can see 00:29:13.259 --> 00:29:17.240 the light bulb itself shining in your eyes, that's 00:29:17.240 --> 00:29:19.700 an unshielded light. It's a light that's shining 00:29:19.700 --> 00:29:24.180 skyward in addition to downward. Rather than 00:29:24.180 --> 00:29:29.480 straight down. Exactly. If you have a fully shielded 00:29:29.480 --> 00:29:32.539 light, as soon as you're at the same level as 00:29:32.539 --> 00:29:35.420 the base of the fixture, like let's say a light 00:29:35.420 --> 00:29:38.240 pole, on our street light. As soon as you're 00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:40.779 up at the same level, you can't see the light 00:29:40.779 --> 00:29:43.960 bulb anymore. So the light is all directed downward. 00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:49.960 And if you're flying and I took this photo a 00:29:49.960 --> 00:29:53.299 long time ago from this seabird colony, a new 00:29:53.299 --> 00:29:55.720 shearwater colony. I was up in the mountains 00:29:55.720 --> 00:30:02.019 and it was sunset. And after the sunset, I'm 00:30:02.019 --> 00:30:05.380 looking out over the island. And here is this 00:30:05.380 --> 00:30:10.160 beacon of light. And I'm at like 4 ,000 or 5 00:30:10.160 --> 00:30:13.779 ,000 feet, well, 3 ,000 or 4 ,000 feet elevation. 00:30:15.119 --> 00:30:18.700 And I see this light essentially down by the 00:30:18.700 --> 00:30:22.240 beach or down by the city near the beach. And 00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:30.599 what that was was a football stadium. And so, 00:30:30.980 --> 00:30:34.660 yeah, that's kind of the the issue. So if they 00:30:34.660 --> 00:30:37.359 start circling the light, they basically get 00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:40.019 tired and then they fall down, they hit the ground 00:30:40.019 --> 00:30:43.119 and then they're either nailed by a cat, a dog. 00:30:44.140 --> 00:30:46.119 You know, these are invasive species to Hawaii 00:30:46.119 --> 00:30:52.119 or cars or or they're in a location where they 00:30:52.119 --> 00:30:54.680 can't get airborne again because it's relatively 00:30:54.680 --> 00:30:58.619 flat. And if they're in a like area where there's 00:30:58.619 --> 00:31:01.519 not enough wind and not enough space, they can't 00:31:01.519 --> 00:31:03.420 get off the ground again and then they're susceptible 00:31:03.420 --> 00:31:06.779 to even rats and cats and things like that. Or 00:31:06.779 --> 00:31:10.039 they just get dehydrated and die. Yeah, I was 00:31:10.039 --> 00:31:11.759 just gonna say dehydrated. They're not eating. 00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:15.319 They're expended all their energy. Their life's 00:31:15.319 --> 00:31:18.720 short at that point. Yeah. So when I said that 00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:21.380 we knew that there were like 30 ,000 that had 00:31:21.380 --> 00:31:26.279 done that, that was years of collection by the 00:31:26.279 --> 00:31:30.119 public. of these birds that grounded themselves 00:31:30.119 --> 00:31:33.000 and people found them. And there was this guy 00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:36.960 named Tom Telfer a long time ago and some of 00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:40.680 his colleagues and associates, another guy named 00:31:40.680 --> 00:31:46.839 Thomas Kayakapu. Those guys had this program 00:31:46.839 --> 00:31:50.279 called Save Our Pure Waters on the island of 00:31:50.279 --> 00:31:53.809 Kauai. And so if you imagine the island is basically 00:31:53.809 --> 00:31:57.009 a circular island, just imagine more or less 00:31:57.009 --> 00:32:01.589 a volcano with the caldera kind of broken off 00:32:01.589 --> 00:32:07.509 and eroded. But the road goes about 80 % around 00:32:07.509 --> 00:32:11.269 the outer edge of the island. There's essentially 00:32:11.269 --> 00:32:14.309 a road along parallel to the beaches all the 00:32:14.309 --> 00:32:18.710 way around. And there's little communities all 00:32:18.710 --> 00:32:21.140 the way around that road. And in each community, 00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:24.480 there's a fire station. And at each fire station, 00:32:24.859 --> 00:32:28.839 they would put what looks like a apartment building 00:32:28.839 --> 00:32:34.119 mix made out of kind of like milk crate material, 00:32:34.259 --> 00:32:39.579 the old plastic milk crates. And each one of 00:32:39.579 --> 00:32:44.119 these mailboxes might have maybe like 12 compartments. 00:32:45.160 --> 00:32:48.099 and a little door on it. Okay. And you take your 00:32:48.099 --> 00:32:50.059 sheer water, you know, which is about the size, 00:32:50.140 --> 00:32:52.799 a little bit bigger than a pigeon. And you'd 00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:55.619 open the door and stick it in a slot and then 00:32:55.619 --> 00:33:01.819 leave it. And, and so that so if the so if the 00:33:01.819 --> 00:33:04.759 public if the public's out and comes across a 00:33:04.759 --> 00:33:07.680 down to grounded sheer water, and they it's alive, 00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:09.980 they can take it to their local fire station 00:33:09.980 --> 00:33:12.200 and essentially, somebody will take care of it, 00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:14.339 try to get it back to the wild. Yeah, exactly. 00:33:15.569 --> 00:33:22.130 It is really cool. The thing is, and a lot of 00:33:22.130 --> 00:33:25.630 the criticism I got early on was, well, you know, 00:33:25.690 --> 00:33:27.009 look at all these people are doing all these 00:33:27.009 --> 00:33:29.670 good things. And they would take the, what would 00:33:29.670 --> 00:33:32.170 happen to the bird you put in the box at night 00:33:32.170 --> 00:33:34.529 is the next morning, a biologist from the state 00:33:34.529 --> 00:33:37.769 would come around and collect the birds and then 00:33:37.769 --> 00:33:41.809 release them out at the beach, you know. And 00:33:41.809 --> 00:33:47.730 the problem is that We found they found since 00:33:47.730 --> 00:33:52.250 1979 to 2000 they found 30 ,000 How many did 00:33:52.250 --> 00:33:54.990 they not find and how many were dead? You know 00:33:54.990 --> 00:33:57.130 when they found exactly and then sometimes when 00:33:57.130 --> 00:33:59.690 the guy would come in the morning The bourbon, 00:33:59.769 --> 00:34:02.930 you know had sat there all night So the lucky 00:34:02.930 --> 00:34:06.750 ones get found by a person and taken and put 00:34:06.750 --> 00:34:11.250 in this box but Some of them a good percentage 00:34:11.250 --> 00:34:13.789 would die overnight, you know a dehydration or 00:34:13.789 --> 00:34:17.079 whatever And then the ones that are being released, 00:34:17.219 --> 00:34:19.480 you know, there's no they're being just released 00:34:19.480 --> 00:34:21.940 in whatever condition they are Sometimes they 00:34:21.940 --> 00:34:23.500 couldn't even leave the beach, you know, they 00:34:23.500 --> 00:34:26.500 wouldn't fly, you know, they've just end up dying 00:34:26.500 --> 00:34:32.159 there so And then what about all those, you know 00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:34.360 tens of thousands undoubtedly that were never 00:34:34.360 --> 00:34:40.900 found and and so so that's kind of the scenario 00:34:40.900 --> 00:34:46.699 that I've been occurring Yeah, so now now is 00:34:46.699 --> 00:34:49.239 a good time to make sure that everybody understands 00:34:49.239 --> 00:34:52.400 the law because I can I can just imagine there's 00:34:52.400 --> 00:34:55.340 a lot of people like Yeah, so what's what's a 00:34:55.340 --> 00:34:59.199 special agent involved for and why so that you 00:34:59.199 --> 00:35:02.500 already mentioned? Shear waters and petrels are 00:35:02.500 --> 00:35:04.980 both listed under the migratory bird treaty act, 00:35:04.980 --> 00:35:07.469 which is a federal federal law that prohibits 00:35:07.469 --> 00:35:10.829 the take of any bird listed under that act. I'll 00:35:10.829 --> 00:35:12.769 just give I'll just give a quick rundown Keith 00:35:12.769 --> 00:35:17.329 and correct me if I'm wrong. But with with the 00:35:17.329 --> 00:35:22.170 MBTA, that's an old federal statute. And it's 00:35:22.170 --> 00:35:24.869 a good one. But because it's basically a strict 00:35:24.869 --> 00:35:27.809 liability law. So you know, if you doesn't matter 00:35:27.809 --> 00:35:30.190 if you set out to kill a bird or you intentionally 00:35:30.190 --> 00:35:32.489 did something that killed a bird, you kill a 00:35:32.489 --> 00:35:35.530 bird on the on the list and technically you violated 00:35:35.530 --> 00:35:41.500 it. That's strict liability. But the shear water, 00:35:41.659 --> 00:35:44.559 the Newell's shear water is listed also under 00:35:44.559 --> 00:35:47.320 the Endangered Species Act as threatened. Yeah, 00:35:47.320 --> 00:35:49.099 the petrol is actually listed as endangered. 00:35:51.139 --> 00:35:53.900 Yeah. It's endangered. Okay. So that's a different 00:35:53.900 --> 00:35:58.619 level of protection. And taking, killing, capturing, 00:35:59.360 --> 00:36:02.139 doing anything that harms them is considered 00:36:02.139 --> 00:36:04.760 take. can be a criminal violation, but there 00:36:04.760 --> 00:36:07.559 has to be some type of either, you know, intent, 00:36:07.719 --> 00:36:10.480 they're somehow involved, either, either you 00:36:10.480 --> 00:36:12.260 intentionally set out to do it, or you were told, 00:36:12.280 --> 00:36:14.820 hey, this behavior is resulting intake, and then 00:36:14.820 --> 00:36:16.579 you don't change that behavior. So that turns 00:36:16.579 --> 00:36:20.420 into your intentionally acting now, right? And, 00:36:20.440 --> 00:36:24.380 you know, businesses can get tangled up in this, 00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:27.840 right? So you mentioned, you know, how the birds 00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:30.360 see lights as maybe they confuse it with stars 00:36:30.360 --> 00:36:33.369 or moons. You know in Southern, California when 00:36:33.369 --> 00:36:37.190 they started to build all of these solar fields 00:36:37.190 --> 00:36:40.610 What you know right under the Pacific Flyway, 00:36:40.630 --> 00:36:42.750 which is a major migration route for migratory 00:36:42.750 --> 00:36:45.769 birds What we started to see out in California 00:36:45.769 --> 00:36:51.150 was at night Water birds waterfowl geese ducks 00:36:51.150 --> 00:36:55.889 loons whatever Mergansers would be flying and 00:36:55.889 --> 00:36:59.320 they would see these solar fields reflecting 00:36:59.320 --> 00:37:01.539 in the starlight or the moon light, and they 00:37:01.539 --> 00:37:03.800 would think it was a lake. And they come down 00:37:03.800 --> 00:37:05.659 to land on this lake and they hit the panels 00:37:05.659 --> 00:37:08.280 and kill themselves in the thousands, right? 00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:11.539 So the question is, you know, the company that 00:37:11.539 --> 00:37:14.360 puts up the lights or the company that puts up 00:37:14.360 --> 00:37:17.739 the solar panels or the wind turbines, they may 00:37:17.739 --> 00:37:20.360 not know at the time, they probably should if 00:37:20.360 --> 00:37:22.500 they did their due diligence with their biologists 00:37:22.500 --> 00:37:24.179 ahead of time, but they may not have known that 00:37:24.179 --> 00:37:26.380 they were building right under a major flyway. 00:37:26.670 --> 00:37:29.110 And so then the question becomes they start to 00:37:29.110 --> 00:37:31.110 kill birds unintentionally, they never set out 00:37:31.110 --> 00:37:33.030 to do that. Obviously, they're just trying to 00:37:33.030 --> 00:37:36.469 provide light or generate power. But as these 00:37:36.469 --> 00:37:38.710 birds start to get killed, particularly in high 00:37:38.710 --> 00:37:42.329 numbers, it goes way beyond incidental take, 00:37:42.389 --> 00:37:45.150 and it could actually impact the population. 00:37:45.269 --> 00:37:48.409 So what normally happens is the company is advised, 00:37:49.030 --> 00:37:51.690 usually by that biologist, like Keith Swindle 00:37:51.690 --> 00:37:53.760 was before he became an agent says, Hey, you're 00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:55.800 You're killing a lot of birds out here, right? 00:37:56.159 --> 00:37:58.400 And here's some things you might do to minimize 00:37:58.400 --> 00:38:01.119 that or to stop it or to reduce it dramatically. 00:38:01.539 --> 00:38:04.500 And then at that point, if the company, whether 00:38:04.500 --> 00:38:08.099 it's SoCal Edison or a power company or a private 00:38:08.099 --> 00:38:10.440 business that owns these wind turbines, if they 00:38:10.440 --> 00:38:12.820 don't change the way they operate their equipment 00:38:12.820 --> 00:38:15.500 in a way that reduces their numbers of killed, 00:38:16.119 --> 00:38:18.559 then essentially they're intentionally violating 00:38:18.559 --> 00:38:22.289 the ESA, Endangered Species Act. Just wanted 00:38:22.289 --> 00:38:24.369 to kind of cut through the explanation because 00:38:24.369 --> 00:38:27.190 sometimes I think people they don't really understand 00:38:27.190 --> 00:38:30.250 well So somebody built solar power. That's a 00:38:30.250 --> 00:38:32.550 good thing Why would that company be potentially 00:38:32.550 --> 00:38:36.170 criminally liable for killing wildlife and it's 00:38:36.170 --> 00:38:38.670 it's not that simple You know, there are a lot 00:38:38.670 --> 00:38:40.670 of things these companies know ahead of time 00:38:40.670 --> 00:38:43.110 about where they're building and there's a lot 00:38:43.110 --> 00:38:45.230 of things they know that they could do to reduce 00:38:45.230 --> 00:38:48.449 deaths or eliminate deaths, but it costs money 00:38:48.449 --> 00:38:51.199 and they don't do it and so they just hope that 00:38:51.199 --> 00:38:52.460 they're not going to get in trouble. I mean, 00:38:52.460 --> 00:38:55.300 is that a fair explanation of kind of where you 00:38:55.300 --> 00:38:57.519 were with Shearwater when you got there? Absolutely. 00:38:58.199 --> 00:39:02.659 Yeah. And, you know, along those lines, you know, 00:39:02.820 --> 00:39:07.920 some of the, this is not a not the right term. 00:39:08.239 --> 00:39:13.000 Some of those that were responsible for the particular 00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:16.320 lights that were causing this to happen and the 00:39:16.320 --> 00:39:20.300 particular power lines, you know, they were early 00:39:20.300 --> 00:39:23.659 on kind of involved in the Save Our Shearwater 00:39:23.659 --> 00:39:27.920 program, more or less passively, you know, often. 00:39:28.880 --> 00:39:31.900 In other words, like the state biologist might 00:39:31.900 --> 00:39:36.170 say, you know, I want to do this Save Our Shear 00:39:36.170 --> 00:39:38.349 Waters program, they might give them a little 00:39:38.349 --> 00:39:41.630 money to buy the milk crate material or something 00:39:41.630 --> 00:39:44.190 like that, or they might contribute in other 00:39:44.190 --> 00:39:46.750 ways, maybe publicize it or something, because 00:39:46.750 --> 00:39:50.610 this is only happening every October and November, 00:39:51.369 --> 00:39:54.090 and only during the new, well, primarily during 00:39:54.090 --> 00:39:57.929 the new moon phase of October and the new moon 00:39:57.929 --> 00:40:02.440 phase of November. And that's when the fledgling 00:40:02.440 --> 00:40:06.760 season for these species was. And so, you know, 00:40:06.760 --> 00:40:10.119 there was these efforts, mostly voluntary efforts 00:40:10.119 --> 00:40:13.900 by not necessarily the people that were doing 00:40:13.900 --> 00:40:17.880 the, that had the facilities that were harming 00:40:17.880 --> 00:40:21.619 these species. But, you know, they were either 00:40:21.619 --> 00:40:23.960 supportive, you know, just generally supportive, 00:40:24.019 --> 00:40:27.480 but really not taking the, you know, responsibility 00:40:27.480 --> 00:40:34.820 to make things better. in my view. Throughout 00:40:34.820 --> 00:40:39.980 my career, and you've raised this really interesting 00:40:39.980 --> 00:40:45.920 almost dilemma, where if somebody is basically 00:40:45.920 --> 00:40:52.840 causing, unintentionally causing the demise of 00:40:52.840 --> 00:40:56.320 a species through whatever their facility is 00:40:56.320 --> 00:41:00.639 or whatever their action is, then How punitive 00:41:00.639 --> 00:41:04.900 do we want to be against them? And then how do 00:41:04.900 --> 00:41:07.619 we bring them into quote unquote compliance where 00:41:07.619 --> 00:41:14.159 they're no longer doing that? And the sad reality 00:41:14.159 --> 00:41:18.119 of humans is, and just like our favorite quote, 00:41:19.420 --> 00:41:24.980 without enforcement, the law is just advice. 00:41:28.599 --> 00:41:32.579 Yeah, and often when financial interests compete 00:41:32.579 --> 00:41:36.440 with advice, financial interests win. Yeah, I 00:41:36.440 --> 00:41:43.079 used to when I would give my talks and I would 00:41:43.079 --> 00:41:46.099 use that quote, I used to say, you know, from 00:41:46.099 --> 00:41:49.139 a financial perspective, it's arguably bad advice. 00:41:55.219 --> 00:42:00.199 Yeah, that's true. That's true. And but you know, 00:42:00.199 --> 00:42:03.360 it's, you know, we could go off on a whole tangent 00:42:03.360 --> 00:42:05.559 about, you know, criminal justice education and 00:42:05.559 --> 00:42:08.119 criminal justice concepts. But one of the things 00:42:08.119 --> 00:42:12.320 that I think is so cool about living in a democratic 00:42:12.320 --> 00:42:17.599 society is that it essentially the citizens of 00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:21.460 the United States give their permission to have 00:42:21.460 --> 00:42:24.079 law enforcement officers enforce the law against 00:42:24.079 --> 00:42:27.219 them, right? Like, The only reason a law enforcement 00:42:27.219 --> 00:42:30.019 officer has authority to make an arrest is because 00:42:30.019 --> 00:42:33.739 voters gave them permission to use force if necessary 00:42:33.739 --> 00:42:38.320 to enforce the law. And, you know, a non -democratic 00:42:38.320 --> 00:42:41.320 country, that is not true. And we can change 00:42:41.320 --> 00:42:44.699 it too. So, you know, if you just look at marijuana 00:42:44.699 --> 00:42:47.039 laws 20 years ago, you could have gotten arrested 00:42:47.039 --> 00:42:49.880 for having marijuana. In many states now, it's 00:42:49.880 --> 00:42:51.760 legal. And that's because voters decided they 00:42:51.760 --> 00:42:54.530 wanted it to be legal. And when they do, the 00:42:54.530 --> 00:42:56.730 cops won't arrest you for it anymore. Right? 00:42:57.170 --> 00:42:59.929 And so as a society, we make a choice, we want 00:42:59.929 --> 00:43:01.969 to protect these animals, we do not want new 00:43:01.969 --> 00:43:04.869 shear waters to go extinct. So yeah, we're gonna 00:43:04.869 --> 00:43:08.010 have to there's going to be a financial in, you 00:43:08.010 --> 00:43:13.369 know, burden that's gonna have to come with that. 00:43:13.570 --> 00:43:17.230 Yeah, it's not a huge one. But that's what we 00:43:17.230 --> 00:43:19.190 decided. And so that's what the law enforcement 00:43:19.190 --> 00:43:22.210 officers are going to do. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 00:43:22.750 --> 00:43:26.010 And so because of this kind of, I use the word 00:43:26.010 --> 00:43:30.889 dilemma, I didn't go out and say, look, you're 00:43:30.889 --> 00:43:32.409 violating the law, you're under arrest, we're 00:43:32.409 --> 00:43:36.329 going to jail right now. What I did is I spent 00:43:36.329 --> 00:43:46.110 about eight years of educating, basically finding 00:43:46.110 --> 00:43:49.949 all the locations. So for over a 10 year period, 00:43:50.199 --> 00:43:53.860 Oh, yeah, go ahead. So wait, we got to back up 00:43:53.860 --> 00:43:57.400 just a second. Because we got to talk about something 00:43:57.400 --> 00:43:59.300 really important that you bring to the table 00:43:59.300 --> 00:44:02.380 when you come into this case. And that is what 00:44:02.380 --> 00:44:05.440 has been going on before has been efforts of 00:44:05.440 --> 00:44:07.719 biologists and the local community who want to 00:44:07.719 --> 00:44:11.119 save these birds. And it's been very ad hoc grassroots. 00:44:12.179 --> 00:44:14.579 Yeah, we found this many and you know, we don't 00:44:14.579 --> 00:44:17.539 really know what happened to the others and now 00:44:17.679 --> 00:44:20.099 as a special agent from the US Fish and Wildlife 00:44:20.099 --> 00:44:24.079 Service, you arrive on on scene now, and you 00:44:24.079 --> 00:44:27.400 are going to bring a law enforcement perspective 00:44:27.400 --> 00:44:32.159 to this. And so just you know, what does that 00:44:32.159 --> 00:44:35.599 mean? Like, what is what is what is the arrival 00:44:35.599 --> 00:44:37.460 of a special agent from US Fish and Wildlife 00:44:37.460 --> 00:44:41.059 Service change? Versus what's been going on before? 00:44:41.880 --> 00:44:44.900 Yeah. It's really documentation. Yeah. something 00:44:44.900 --> 00:44:49.719 that I've I call it the fragile coalition. So 00:44:49.719 --> 00:44:54.019 what I mean by that is you as an agent you show 00:44:54.019 --> 00:44:56.800 up and then there's this whole community of people 00:44:56.800 --> 00:44:58.639 that are saying, you know, the status quo is 00:44:58.639 --> 00:45:04.139 good enough and and we are all volunteering. 00:45:04.139 --> 00:45:06.320 We're all working and we're you know, this hall 00:45:06.320 --> 00:45:08.519 is great. We pick up all these birds. Look at 00:45:08.519 --> 00:45:10.179 all these birds we picked up and we've released. 00:45:10.179 --> 00:45:13.469 How great is that? And I'm sitting there looking 00:45:13.469 --> 00:45:15.949 at it like, yeah, but how many of you missed? 00:45:16.329 --> 00:45:18.250 Why are they coming down in the first place? 00:45:18.769 --> 00:45:24.550 That's a violation of law. And just trying to 00:45:24.550 --> 00:45:28.389 do essentially, basically putting a Band -Aid 00:45:28.389 --> 00:45:36.670 on the skin cancer is not a solution. And so, 00:45:38.809 --> 00:45:44.380 yeah. My mentor agent, Pete Nylander, the guy 00:45:44.380 --> 00:45:47.219 that recruited me originally, used to have this 00:45:47.219 --> 00:45:50.199 saying, and he said, you have to break eggs to 00:45:50.199 --> 00:45:58.159 make an omelet. Nobody wants to break eggs. Basically, 00:45:58.219 --> 00:46:02.099 you have to come in as the agent and break those 00:46:02.099 --> 00:46:06.670 eggs. And then, you know, and that's by enforcing 00:46:06.670 --> 00:46:09.789 the law and the eggs represent like the fragile 00:46:09.789 --> 00:46:12.329 coalition that everybody is. It's just the status 00:46:12.329 --> 00:46:14.889 quo. It's the norm. You know, it's the way we've 00:46:14.889 --> 00:46:16.969 been getting by all this time without anybody 00:46:16.969 --> 00:46:22.070 complaining. Meanwhile, all your sheer waters 00:46:22.070 --> 00:46:25.889 are disappearing, right? Yeah. And even, you 00:46:25.889 --> 00:46:27.869 know, I know how much you love football, but 00:46:27.869 --> 00:46:30.690 we're going to explain how even in the Friday 00:46:30.690 --> 00:46:34.639 night football games on Kauai, The football players 00:46:34.639 --> 00:46:36.699 themselves were able to document the demise of 00:46:36.699 --> 00:46:38.619 their own species. We're gonna talk about that 00:46:38.619 --> 00:46:42.219 later. Don't forget But you know what what you're 00:46:42.219 --> 00:46:44.500 doing differently than what the community did 00:46:44.500 --> 00:46:47.300 before is you're looking you're coming over now 00:46:47.300 --> 00:46:49.880 as an agent and you're saying hey is a crime 00:46:49.880 --> 00:46:54.219 occurring and if so That's something that potentially 00:46:54.219 --> 00:46:56.500 is gonna get charged and now there's a whole 00:46:56.500 --> 00:46:59.300 different level if you're gonna charge a company 00:46:59.300 --> 00:47:02.679 or a person or whatever with violating the law 00:47:02.909 --> 00:47:05.110 there's a process that has to be done. There 00:47:05.110 --> 00:47:10.710 has to be a very neutral, fair, complete professional 00:47:10.710 --> 00:47:13.489 investigation done. And that's what you bring 00:47:13.489 --> 00:47:17.630 to the table when you arrive in Kauai. You're 00:47:17.630 --> 00:47:20.090 going to investigate this case, right? Which 00:47:20.090 --> 00:47:22.429 means documenting the who, what, where, when, 00:47:22.530 --> 00:47:28.927 and why, and how. Exactly. Yeah. So I spent... 00:47:28.920 --> 00:47:33.760 Yeah, go ahead and years of nights in October 00:47:33.760 --> 00:47:38.440 and November and that that is the craziest part 00:47:38.440 --> 00:47:40.519 of this. And there's a reason for the 10 years. 00:47:40.559 --> 00:47:43.599 And when I think when listeners hear why it took 00:47:43.599 --> 00:47:46.000 you 10 years, why you worked on this case for 00:47:46.000 --> 00:47:49.639 10 years, it will change their whole perspective 00:47:49.639 --> 00:47:53.199 about how they view law enforcement, and in particular, 00:47:53.480 --> 00:47:56.360 federal agents, because we get a bad reputation 00:47:56.360 --> 00:47:59.599 sometimes for being heavy handed. too aggressive. 00:47:59.780 --> 00:48:02.260 And it's always the bad guys who accuse us of 00:48:02.260 --> 00:48:04.400 those things. But there's a reason it took you 00:48:04.400 --> 00:48:07.059 10 years to do this. And we are going to have 00:48:07.059 --> 00:48:10.099 to talk about that in the next episode. Because 00:48:10.099 --> 00:48:11.820 this is going to be a two parter because this 00:48:11.820 --> 00:48:17.539 is too good. So so right now, we're going to 00:48:17.539 --> 00:48:20.300 wrap up this episode. And I'm going to tell you 00:48:20.300 --> 00:48:22.159 join us next week because Keith is going to tell 00:48:22.159 --> 00:48:24.340 you why it took 10 years to work on this case, 00:48:24.519 --> 00:48:27.550 and the fabulous outcome that resulted. So thank 00:48:27.550 --> 00:48:30.210 you very much for tuning in to Nature's Secret 00:48:30.210 --> 00:48:33.570 Service for this week. We'll see you next time. 00:48:34.590 --> 00:48:36.429 Nature's Secret Service is written and produced 00:48:36.429 --> 00:48:39.130 by me, Ed Newcomer, and is co -produced by the 00:48:39.130 --> 00:48:42.329 DHTV team here at California State University 00:48:42.329 --> 00:48:44.889 Dominguez Hills. Follow us on social media and 00:48:44.889 --> 00:48:47.190 connect with us online at naturessecretservice 00:48:47.190 --> 00:48:47.829 .com.