WEBVTT 00:00:23.179 --> 00:00:26.179 Okay, people, listen up. Here we go. This is 00:00:26.179 --> 00:00:28.199 Nature's Secret Service, the podcast that puts 00:00:28.199 --> 00:00:30.699 you in the room with the men and women of wildlife 00:00:30.699 --> 00:00:33.600 law enforcement. I'm Ed Newcomer, your host, 00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:37.500 and today we have with us Cash Schrieffer, retired 00:00:37.500 --> 00:00:39.799 U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service Special Agent, 00:00:40.240 --> 00:00:43.200 coming to us from his home in Louisiana. Cash, 00:00:43.320 --> 00:00:46.899 thanks for joining us. Yes, great. Cash and I 00:00:46.899 --> 00:00:49.299 actually worked together. and not together at 00:00:49.299 --> 00:00:51.939 the same time. We were agents at the same time, 00:00:51.939 --> 00:00:54.020 but we didn't work in the same part of the country. 00:00:54.060 --> 00:00:56.719 So our experiences were very different. I'm super 00:00:56.719 --> 00:00:59.219 excited to talk to him today about his experiences 00:00:59.219 --> 00:01:02.520 as a special agent with the U .S. Fish and Wildlife 00:01:02.520 --> 00:01:04.739 Service working in the southeastern part of the 00:01:04.739 --> 00:01:08.439 U .S. I love that you so many of us after we 00:01:08.439 --> 00:01:10.439 retire, you know, we end up going back to our 00:01:10.439 --> 00:01:15.180 roots so many times. Right. You know, I want 00:01:15.180 --> 00:01:19.599 to jump right in and ask you because I know people 00:01:19.599 --> 00:01:21.359 who are listening and watching are going to be 00:01:21.359 --> 00:01:24.019 really curious about, you know, what does a special 00:01:24.019 --> 00:01:27.019 agent do? Your last field office was Monroe, 00:01:27.040 --> 00:01:29.719 Louisiana, right? Actually, I had a little office 00:01:29.719 --> 00:01:32.560 right after that. The end of my career was New 00:01:32.560 --> 00:01:34.459 Orleans, Louisiana. Oh, you actually went to 00:01:34.459 --> 00:01:36.859 New Orleans at the end. Yeah, I did. I got a 00:01:36.859 --> 00:01:39.400 promotion, went to New Orleans, and then I got 00:01:39.400 --> 00:01:41.519 diagnosed with Parkinson's disease, so I retired 00:01:41.519 --> 00:01:45.000 a little early. Gotcha. Okay. Yes, New Orleans. 00:01:45.280 --> 00:01:47.900 Yeah, that's actually interesting because I think, 00:01:48.400 --> 00:01:51.120 you know, so you went from Monroe, which was 00:01:51.120 --> 00:01:54.079 a single agent duty station, right? Yes. But 00:01:54.079 --> 00:01:57.000 when I was in New Orleans, it was actually me 00:01:57.000 --> 00:01:59.420 in the office and a wildlife inspector and then 00:01:59.420 --> 00:02:02.079 later two wildlife inspectors. Okay. We were 00:02:02.079 --> 00:02:05.120 there mainly the Port of New Orleans. It's both 00:02:05.120 --> 00:02:07.640 a seaport and, you know, of course an airport. 00:02:08.360 --> 00:02:13.800 And we have, as you well know, most of our designated 00:02:13.800 --> 00:02:16.620 ports, as they're called, have a lot more wildlife 00:02:16.620 --> 00:02:20.439 imported than exported. And an exception to that 00:02:20.439 --> 00:02:22.580 would be New Orleans. Most of everything is leaving. 00:02:23.219 --> 00:02:27.460 Alligator hides and turtles, live turtles. Yeah. 00:02:27.759 --> 00:02:30.020 You know, I've talked about this before as that, 00:02:30.020 --> 00:02:34.180 I think you retired in 2013, is that right? Yes. 00:02:34.280 --> 00:02:37.180 Yeah. So I'm sure you saw the same thing that 00:02:37.180 --> 00:02:40.500 we saw when I was working in Los Angeles. In 00:02:40.500 --> 00:02:43.379 the earlier 2000s, what we saw was a lot of wildlife 00:02:43.379 --> 00:02:46.479 coming into the U .S., and then there was a change. 00:02:46.919 --> 00:02:48.780 And we started to see more and more wildlife 00:02:48.780 --> 00:02:52.120 headed out, particularly amphibians, turtles, 00:02:52.340 --> 00:02:55.780 reptiles, things like that, headed out to Asia. 00:02:56.099 --> 00:02:57.740 Is that what you were experiencing there in New 00:02:57.740 --> 00:03:00.560 Orleans? Well, just kind of, I mean, this is 00:03:00.560 --> 00:03:03.039 rule of thumb, but if it was a turtle and it 00:03:03.039 --> 00:03:05.939 was headed for Asia, it was to be eaten unless 00:03:05.939 --> 00:03:08.759 it went to Japan, pets. If it was going to Europe, 00:03:08.960 --> 00:03:11.719 it was pets unless it was going to Belgium or 00:03:11.719 --> 00:03:14.360 France, because turtles are part of the diet. 00:03:15.159 --> 00:03:17.819 Isn't that funny how you can kind of narrow down 00:03:17.819 --> 00:03:21.199 where and why a particular species of wildlife 00:03:21.199 --> 00:03:25.580 is being traded based on where it's going, right? 00:03:26.159 --> 00:03:28.960 Yeah, as you know, a lot of this use of wildlife 00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:33.319 is cultural. And turtle soup has always been 00:03:33.319 --> 00:03:35.860 a big thing for French speaking people, at least 00:03:35.860 --> 00:03:40.020 Louisiana. in France, Belgium, and pets, you 00:03:40.020 --> 00:03:42.659 know, the Japanese, not everybody in the world 00:03:42.659 --> 00:03:46.439 has pets, but they do love their pets. I think 00:03:46.439 --> 00:03:49.939 the pet trade in the exotic animals is also increasing 00:03:49.939 --> 00:03:53.500 in parts of other parts of Asia, like China, 00:03:54.120 --> 00:03:57.659 South Korea, even in Vietnam now, as those economies 00:03:57.659 --> 00:03:59.879 are growing and people have more disposable income, 00:03:59.979 --> 00:04:02.659 they are turning to, so there's a threat now 00:04:02.659 --> 00:04:05.319 for these species leaving the U .S., going into 00:04:05.319 --> 00:04:08.020 them. food trade as well as the pet trade all 00:04:08.020 --> 00:04:12.439 across Asia. Yes. So that's actually great that 00:04:12.439 --> 00:04:13.960 you worked in New Orleans at the end. And let 00:04:13.960 --> 00:04:16.600 me just explain to our listeners what a wildlife 00:04:16.600 --> 00:04:19.620 inspector is. So within the Fish and Wildlife 00:04:19.620 --> 00:04:22.180 Service Office of Law Enforcement, there are 00:04:22.180 --> 00:04:26.019 special agents who are the armed sworn law enforcement 00:04:26.019 --> 00:04:28.180 officers who do investigations, make arrests, 00:04:28.180 --> 00:04:32.500 but there's also a uniformed branch of wildlife 00:04:32.500 --> 00:04:37.360 inspectors and they act often just like a customs 00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:39.560 officer would. They're usually based at ports 00:04:39.560 --> 00:04:42.839 of entry, border points, airports or seaports. 00:04:43.279 --> 00:04:46.439 They're uniformed officers and they conduct inspections 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:50.199 of people and parcels and mail going in and out 00:04:50.199 --> 00:04:56.480 of the country. Cash, you worked for a while 00:04:56.480 --> 00:04:58.839 in a single agent duty station where you're all 00:04:58.839 --> 00:05:03.449 by yourself, right? I did. I worked a little 00:05:03.449 --> 00:05:07.170 over 25 years total before I retired, but almost 00:05:07.170 --> 00:05:09.850 18 of that was in single agent duty station in 00:05:09.850 --> 00:05:13.089 Monroe, Louisiana, which is in Northeast Louisiana 00:05:13.089 --> 00:05:17.949 near Arkansas. I imagine that is, I never worked 00:05:17.949 --> 00:05:20.730 in a single agent station aside from being overseas 00:05:20.730 --> 00:05:25.149 for five years, but I imagine it's uh kind of 00:05:25.149 --> 00:05:27.790 nice because you're you know you you determine 00:05:27.790 --> 00:05:29.310 what you're doing every day but you also don't 00:05:29.310 --> 00:05:31.290 have a partner to work with regularly do you 00:05:31.290 --> 00:05:34.709 that is true but we as you know and i would say 00:05:34.709 --> 00:05:37.889 even in single duty stations or anywhere i partnered 00:05:37.889 --> 00:05:40.750 up a lot with state officers with what was known 00:05:40.750 --> 00:05:43.529 then as federal refuge officers now wildlife 00:05:43.529 --> 00:05:48.209 officers and the fbi say whoever whomever right 00:05:48.209 --> 00:05:51.670 i mean not routinely but i if i needed help there 00:05:51.670 --> 00:05:54.959 was several sources i could depend on. Right, 00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:57.800 for sure. I mean, most of the time we are, you 00:05:57.800 --> 00:06:01.019 know, Fish and Wildlife Special Agents should 00:06:01.019 --> 00:06:03.220 always and usually do have a good relationship 00:06:03.220 --> 00:06:05.720 with their counterparts in the state wildlife 00:06:05.720 --> 00:06:08.639 agencies and work with them a lot. But when you 00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:11.439 need to, you also of course reach out to FBI 00:06:11.439 --> 00:06:14.680 or ATF or Secret Service or US Marshals or whoever's 00:06:14.680 --> 00:06:17.040 available and handy and willing to help you if 00:06:17.040 --> 00:06:21.060 you need it, right? Correct. So Tell us a little 00:06:21.060 --> 00:06:23.060 bit about, you know, one of the things that I 00:06:23.060 --> 00:06:24.980 think is so cool about being a special agent 00:06:24.980 --> 00:06:28.019 for Fish and Wildlife Service is that what you 00:06:28.019 --> 00:06:30.660 do and the things you work on vary so greatly 00:06:30.660 --> 00:06:33.360 depend on where you are in the country and what 00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:36.680 field office you're assigned to. And in the southeastern 00:06:36.680 --> 00:06:38.319 United States, I think a lot of people might 00:06:38.319 --> 00:06:40.500 say, well, why do we need a federal wildlife 00:06:40.500 --> 00:06:43.939 agent in Monroe, Louisiana? So tell us a little 00:06:43.939 --> 00:06:47.420 bit about what are the federal conservation issues 00:06:47.420 --> 00:06:50.610 going on? in that part of the country, Louisiana, 00:06:50.889 --> 00:06:55.689 Southeast? Well, over the years, since even before 00:06:55.689 --> 00:06:59.870 I was hired, we never had more, except for training 00:06:59.870 --> 00:07:01.970 purposes, sometimes more than one agent in North 00:07:01.970 --> 00:07:05.069 Louisiana. Two -thirds of our population are 00:07:05.069 --> 00:07:08.329 in the southern third of the state. But to put 00:07:08.329 --> 00:07:11.329 an agent in North Louisiana or closer to the 00:07:11.329 --> 00:07:14.470 Arkansas border, it fills a big gap because the 00:07:14.470 --> 00:07:17.009 other agents out in the area would be Little 00:07:17.009 --> 00:07:20.149 Rock, Arkansas, or in the northern part of Mississippi. 00:07:21.550 --> 00:07:24.009 And the thing is, two cases, type of cases I 00:07:24.009 --> 00:07:27.069 worked a lot on in Monroe, is the Louisiana black 00:07:27.069 --> 00:07:29.790 bear is the only subspecies of American black 00:07:29.790 --> 00:07:32.069 bear that was ever listed as endangered or threatened. 00:07:32.470 --> 00:07:35.949 And in 1992, it was listed as threatened. And 00:07:35.949 --> 00:07:39.470 so that meant pretty much anywhere a Louisiana 00:07:39.470 --> 00:07:41.970 black bear was taken, we had jurisdiction, we 00:07:41.970 --> 00:07:44.790 had authority to investigate. Now we had federal 00:07:44.790 --> 00:07:47.740 refugees across the state. and anything of course 00:07:47.740 --> 00:07:50.139 killed there, we already had jurisdiction. Nothing 00:07:50.139 --> 00:07:52.420 to bald eagle. Trying to remember and I think 00:07:52.420 --> 00:07:54.959 it was still threatened possibly when I moved 00:07:54.959 --> 00:07:57.680 back to Louisiana, maybe even endangered. So 00:07:57.680 --> 00:08:00.560 anytime we had a bald eagle killed or anything 00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:02.259 to do with bald eagles, that was a high priority. 00:08:02.980 --> 00:08:06.879 Yeah, especially because, you know, eagles for 00:08:06.879 --> 00:08:09.720 a U .S. Fish and Wildlife Special Agent are pretty 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:12.240 important for a lot of reasons. Like bald eagle, 00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:14.819 of course, was listed under the Endangered Species 00:08:14.819 --> 00:08:16.579 Act for many, many years, and it's one of the 00:08:16.579 --> 00:08:19.180 great success stories as far as recovery goes. 00:08:19.600 --> 00:08:22.300 But even now that it's not listed, of course, 00:08:22.600 --> 00:08:24.660 eagles are still protected by the Migratory Bird 00:08:24.660 --> 00:08:27.759 Treaty Act through the MBTA, which is a major 00:08:27.759 --> 00:08:29.819 law that the Fish and Wildlife Service enforces. 00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:32.980 And of course, there's also the bald and golden 00:08:32.980 --> 00:08:35.919 eagle protection act. So there's a lot of laws 00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:38.299 that affect them. Yeah. Birds of prey, you and 00:08:38.299 --> 00:08:40.120 I know that even when the Migratory Bird Treaty 00:08:40.120 --> 00:08:43.600 Act took effect in 1918, it excluded raptors. 00:08:43.779 --> 00:08:47.539 In 1940, they listed in a separate act the bald 00:08:47.539 --> 00:08:49.740 eagle protection act. In the early 60s, they 00:08:49.740 --> 00:08:52.259 added our only other eagle, the golden eagle. 00:08:52.879 --> 00:08:56.279 And even now, with the bald eagle off of the 00:08:56.279 --> 00:08:58.759 endangered species act, it's still... higher 00:08:58.759 --> 00:09:01.639 protection and higher penalty potential under 00:09:01.639 --> 00:09:04.159 the Eagle Protection Act for both ball and goblins. 00:09:04.940 --> 00:09:07.919 Exactly. Small, very narrowly defined act, but 00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:12.720 very important. Exactly. And arguably stricter 00:09:12.720 --> 00:09:14.740 requirements than even in the Endangered Species 00:09:14.740 --> 00:09:19.840 Act. Right. Yeah, exactly. Early in my career, 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:22.940 it was very clear that agents... prioritized 00:09:22.940 --> 00:09:25.460 eagle issues, you know, because there weren't 00:09:25.460 --> 00:09:27.279 a lot of protections for them aside from the 00:09:27.279 --> 00:09:30.679 federal. I think the count down, because of mainly 00:09:30.679 --> 00:09:34.740 DDT in Louisiana, we're down to like 11 nesting 00:09:34.740 --> 00:09:37.940 eagles in the state. Now we're way over 300. 00:09:38.460 --> 00:09:41.960 And in time, we may catch Florida. But Florida 00:09:41.960 --> 00:09:44.240 and Louisiana are two big states, particularly 00:09:44.240 --> 00:09:47.539 for nesting eagles in the southeast in the United 00:09:47.539 --> 00:09:50.759 States. All our wetlands. You'll never find an 00:09:50.759 --> 00:09:55.120 eagle too far from a wetland. Yeah. That's exactly 00:09:55.120 --> 00:09:58.600 right. Yeah. And you mentioned DDT. DDT, of course, 00:09:58.659 --> 00:10:01.460 is a pesticide that was widely used in agriculture 00:10:01.460 --> 00:10:05.000 for a long time and took a while for us to discover 00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:11.759 that DDT causes, basically it aggregates itself 00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:13.460 the higher it goes in the food chain. And by 00:10:13.460 --> 00:10:15.860 the time you get to the predatory birds, It's 00:10:15.860 --> 00:10:18.179 at high enough levels that it causes their eggs 00:10:18.179 --> 00:10:20.779 not to harden properly and they end up accidentally 00:10:20.779 --> 00:10:23.460 crushing their own eggs and they have very, very 00:10:23.460 --> 00:10:27.440 poor nest success. On top of that, eagles, of 00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:30.899 course, build these huge nests in trees and people 00:10:30.899 --> 00:10:33.460 are cutting the trees down all the time and destroying 00:10:33.460 --> 00:10:35.480 nests, which is also a violation of the law. 00:10:35.559 --> 00:10:37.259 So there's a lot of things that affect eagles 00:10:37.259 --> 00:10:40.600 or have affected them. So let's let's talk about 00:10:40.600 --> 00:10:44.019 the MBTA or the Migratory Bird Treaty Act, because 00:10:44.019 --> 00:10:47.679 I know that In Louisiana, that's a very important 00:10:47.679 --> 00:10:50.399 part of what a special agent is involved in. 00:10:50.700 --> 00:10:54.919 You mentioned it was enacted in 1918. It's an 00:10:54.919 --> 00:10:59.179 oldie. It's one of the oldest conservation laws 00:10:59.179 --> 00:11:02.519 in the United States. You know a lot about the 00:11:02.519 --> 00:11:05.740 history. Why was the MBTA enacted in the first 00:11:05.740 --> 00:11:09.120 place? What was the problem it addressed? Well, 00:11:09.120 --> 00:11:12.899 earlier we had enacted in 1900 that we knew as 00:11:12.899 --> 00:11:17.350 the LACIAC. govern interstate commerce or illegal 00:11:17.350 --> 00:11:20.990 wildlife. But back in that time, we had a lot 00:11:20.990 --> 00:11:23.110 of market hunting where you go to big cities, 00:11:23.549 --> 00:11:26.409 and you could buy waterfowl, ducks, geese, in 00:11:26.409 --> 00:11:28.929 the open market, their numbers were plummeting. 00:11:29.269 --> 00:11:31.909 And another thing, you had women's fashions back 00:11:31.909 --> 00:11:35.269 then were plumes, a lot in their hats, they'd 00:11:35.269 --> 00:11:38.590 use egrets and heron plumes. And there's numbers 00:11:38.590 --> 00:11:41.570 of these wildlife that furnish these carcasses 00:11:41.570 --> 00:11:44.220 and these feathers. the numbers started to really 00:11:44.220 --> 00:11:47.740 crash. So they tried at first to pass the migratory 00:11:47.740 --> 00:11:52.200 bird law based on interstate commerce. And it 00:11:52.200 --> 00:11:53.679 was looking like it was going to get shot down 00:11:53.679 --> 00:11:55.820 at the Supreme Court. So they decided to go with 00:11:55.820 --> 00:11:58.460 one of the other couple of methods to have federal 00:11:58.460 --> 00:12:00.779 jurisdiction and go with the Migratory Bird Treaty, 00:12:01.299 --> 00:12:04.480 which we signed and it's so back long ago with 00:12:04.480 --> 00:12:07.679 Great Britain on behalf of Canada. And later... 00:12:07.389 --> 00:12:10.370 Japan got added to it, Mexico got added to it, 00:12:10.429 --> 00:12:12.909 the Soviet Union, after they broke up Russia, 00:12:13.190 --> 00:12:15.389 acceded, agreed, we'll stay under the treaty. 00:12:15.929 --> 00:12:20.070 When that came in, you had a federal offense 00:12:20.070 --> 00:12:24.549 to help protect migratory birds. And when you 00:12:24.549 --> 00:12:27.210 started having the ability to take cases to federal 00:12:27.210 --> 00:12:30.769 court instead of your local courts, and there's 00:12:30.769 --> 00:12:32.850 politics at every level sometimes, but at local 00:12:32.850 --> 00:12:34.919 levels. when you're bringing in people in front 00:12:34.919 --> 00:12:38.159 of the judge's DA that are relatives, you try 00:12:38.159 --> 00:12:40.559 to take, you know, making it a federal offense 00:12:40.559 --> 00:12:45.899 really took a lot of the now processing and dismissals 00:12:45.899 --> 00:12:48.940 out of it. So it was a good move. I always like 00:12:48.940 --> 00:12:52.419 that when he went to the Supreme Court, there 00:12:52.419 --> 00:12:55.440 was a case, a guy who was a U .S. Fish and Wildlife 00:12:55.440 --> 00:12:59.440 Service agent, Holland, and he called the attorney 00:12:59.440 --> 00:13:02.470 general in Missouri. and it went all the way 00:13:02.470 --> 00:13:05.149 to the U .S. Supreme Court on constitutionality, 00:13:05.490 --> 00:13:08.029 and Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote a decision, nine 00:13:08.029 --> 00:13:10.629 to nothing, as constitutional. It was based on 00:13:10.629 --> 00:13:13.149 the international treaty. And so that's at the 00:13:13.149 --> 00:13:16.269 stage of us to really started to crack down on 00:13:16.269 --> 00:13:19.389 all this commercial activity with birds. And 00:13:19.389 --> 00:13:21.769 it's just a big market, you know? People love 00:13:21.769 --> 00:13:24.009 to waterfowl, and you can raise them, but why 00:13:24.009 --> 00:13:27.289 not go out in the wild and kill some? And it's 00:13:27.289 --> 00:13:29.480 kind of hard to... you know, that's this whole 00:13:29.480 --> 00:13:31.759 idea of sport fishing and hunting, or even commercial 00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:34.799 fishing and hunting, whatever, is to make things 00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:36.659 sustainable. When everybody's just taking as 00:13:36.659 --> 00:13:40.019 many as they can because they can sell it, it 00:13:40.019 --> 00:13:43.039 can be a huge problem. Yeah, and that's really, 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:45.960 you know, that's one of the things special agents 00:13:45.960 --> 00:13:49.179 tend to focus on is not just illegal activity, 00:13:49.340 --> 00:13:51.860 but illegal activity that commercializes wildlife, 00:13:51.960 --> 00:13:56.019 because that really is the big threat to not 00:13:56.019 --> 00:13:58.759 just you know, individual animals, but whole 00:13:58.759 --> 00:14:01.759 populations of animals. And that we learned 100 00:14:01.759 --> 00:14:06.919 years ago with almost decimating our own waterfowl 00:14:06.919 --> 00:14:10.460 population just for the meat market. And then, 00:14:10.519 --> 00:14:13.700 like you said, you add on top of the demand for 00:14:13.700 --> 00:14:15.820 ornamental feathers, you know, that went into 00:14:15.820 --> 00:14:19.879 people's hats and clothing at that time. All 00:14:19.879 --> 00:14:21.940 the all the migratory birds were getting hit, 00:14:22.019 --> 00:14:24.200 not just the waterfowl, but as you said, egrets. 00:14:25.100 --> 00:14:28.110 Yeah. I mean, it would have been a migratory 00:14:28.110 --> 00:14:30.690 bird had it stayed alive, but the supposedly 00:14:30.690 --> 00:14:33.549 most numerous bird in North America, the passenger 00:14:33.549 --> 00:14:37.669 pigeon, absolutely disappeared off the face of 00:14:37.669 --> 00:14:42.009 the earth. That's a very good example of why 00:14:42.009 --> 00:14:45.669 these laws needed to be enforced to protect these 00:14:45.669 --> 00:14:49.850 birds. And I think the really interesting thing, 00:14:49.909 --> 00:14:52.750 and the key word here is migratory, because these 00:14:52.750 --> 00:14:56.850 birds move. thousands or even, you know, tens 00:14:56.850 --> 00:14:58.470 of thousands, I don't know, tens of thousands, 00:14:58.570 --> 00:15:00.990 but certainly thousands of miles twice a year 00:15:00.990 --> 00:15:05.809 when they migrate. A big impact on them, say 00:15:05.809 --> 00:15:10.190 in Louisiana, could impact their nesting success 00:15:10.190 --> 00:15:12.509 up in Canada when they go up there in the summertime, 00:15:12.669 --> 00:15:15.129 you know? Exactly. Unless you have a disease 00:15:15.129 --> 00:15:18.230 come into play, it's much harder. And out of 00:15:18.230 --> 00:15:21.830 Leopold, Professor Leopold from the early part 00:15:21.830 --> 00:15:25.309 of the 20th century, well known for pretty much 00:15:25.309 --> 00:15:27.570 creating the science of wildlife management, 00:15:28.210 --> 00:15:30.009 is that when you have a migratory population 00:15:30.009 --> 00:15:35.370 of anything, you destroy any area within that 00:15:35.370 --> 00:15:38.789 past of migration, you could be greatly endangered 00:15:38.789 --> 00:15:41.070 or threatened of species. Where you take like 00:15:41.070 --> 00:15:43.649 deer, like in Louisiana, they don't migrate, 00:15:43.730 --> 00:15:46.149 they pretty much hang out in a small area. But 00:15:46.149 --> 00:15:48.529 when suddenly you have waterfowl nesting in Canada, 00:15:49.009 --> 00:15:51.700 and they go through Northern United States, Sometimes 00:15:51.700 --> 00:15:54.320 they don't, they go all the way to South America. 00:15:54.980 --> 00:15:59.340 And at any point you damage or just flat out 00:15:59.340 --> 00:16:03.799 destroy their habitat, the population can crash 00:16:03.799 --> 00:16:07.679 or disappear. So, you know, it's interesting. 00:16:08.360 --> 00:16:10.480 A lot of people don't realize that, well, hey, 00:16:10.620 --> 00:16:12.720 you know, Canada our neighbor, Mexico our neighbors. 00:16:12.919 --> 00:16:16.360 Japan out in the Pacific, the western, excuse 00:16:16.360 --> 00:16:18.679 me, eastern part of what is now Russia, formerly 00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:22.200 Soviet Union. We have these mutual interests 00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:26.399 in protecting our wildlife. Absolutely. Absolutely. 00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:28.879 And the whole migratory scheme is interesting. 00:16:28.940 --> 00:16:31.000 I always try to remind my friends and family 00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:34.139 that, you know, when you see a hawk on a telephone 00:16:34.139 --> 00:16:39.360 pole in June and then you see a hawk on that 00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:41.940 same telephone pole in December, It's probably 00:16:41.940 --> 00:16:44.659 not the same hawk. You know, it's probably the 00:16:44.659 --> 00:16:46.960 hawk you see in December is probably a hawk that 00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:49.700 spends its summers up in the Arctic. And the 00:16:49.700 --> 00:16:52.480 hawk you see in June is probably one that spent 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:57.100 its time. So there are a few like subpopulations 00:16:57.100 --> 00:16:59.740 of the various migratory birds and just how many 00:16:59.740 --> 00:17:03.580 are there? Oh, 800 something species are listed 00:17:03.580 --> 00:17:06.819 on a migratory bird Trudiac. Over 95 % of the 00:17:06.819 --> 00:17:10.460 species. of birds that inhabit, wild birds inhabit 00:17:10.460 --> 00:17:12.740 the Canada and the United States is a migratory 00:17:12.740 --> 00:17:16.619 bird. I know I used to like say Louisiana or 00:17:16.619 --> 00:17:19.640 even this applied when I was in Texas. What is 00:17:19.640 --> 00:17:24.180 not a migratory bird? Louisiana, Turkey, wild 00:17:24.180 --> 00:17:30.460 turkey. Then you have quail, wild white quail, 00:17:30.900 --> 00:17:34.619 European starling, and that's it. Everything 00:17:34.619 --> 00:17:38.900 else is either a resident bird Like I say, everything 00:17:38.900 --> 00:17:40.900 else, migratory birds, all your songbirds, all 00:17:40.900 --> 00:17:44.200 your birds of prey, water birds, little bitty 00:17:44.200 --> 00:17:48.559 finches, a lot of birds. Yeah, it's definitely 00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:50.980 easier to name the ones that are not listed than 00:17:50.980 --> 00:17:58.140 it is the ones that are listed. Exactly. So why 00:17:58.140 --> 00:18:02.200 is Louisiana such an important place for migratory 00:18:02.200 --> 00:18:05.349 birds? You explained it to me once and you have 00:18:05.349 --> 00:18:08.009 a great way of explaining why Louisiana is so 00:18:08.009 --> 00:18:11.230 critical for migratory birds, particularly waterfowl. 00:18:11.490 --> 00:18:14.269 Well, the largest waterway, the largest river 00:18:14.269 --> 00:18:17.109 on the North American continent is the Mississippi 00:18:17.109 --> 00:18:21.809 River and all its tributaries. 31 states, all 00:18:21.809 --> 00:18:24.950 a part of 31 states and parts of two provinces 00:18:24.950 --> 00:18:28.910 of Canada drain eventually into the Mississippi 00:18:28.910 --> 00:18:31.890 River. And there's wetlands all along that drainage, 00:18:32.009 --> 00:18:34.309 but when you get on the coast, that's where you 00:18:34.309 --> 00:18:38.849 also add things like cypress swamps, also marsh, 00:18:39.410 --> 00:18:41.549 various types of marsh, fresh salt marsh and 00:18:41.549 --> 00:18:44.170 intermediate marsh or whatever. So it gets cold 00:18:44.170 --> 00:18:47.630 in the North. Birds are going to migrate wherever 00:18:47.630 --> 00:18:49.970 they are in the world to warmer areas, particularly 00:18:49.970 --> 00:18:52.490 in the fall and the winter. And that means all 00:18:52.490 --> 00:18:56.930 the birds in the top area for nesting a waterfowl 00:18:56.930 --> 00:19:00.799 in America or Canada. is north central United 00:19:00.799 --> 00:19:02.519 States, continental United States, and Canada. 00:19:03.859 --> 00:19:06.940 And those birds, almost every one of them leaves 00:19:06.940 --> 00:19:09.759 in the winter, and they work their way down to 00:19:09.759 --> 00:19:11.880 Louisiana. And a lot stay here because we have 00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:13.799 a lot of wetlands, but some even go further. 00:19:16.519 --> 00:19:18.859 And it's just quite a trip these birds make every 00:19:18.859 --> 00:19:23.579 year. It's crazy. So basically, Louisiana, I 00:19:23.579 --> 00:19:27.240 mean, has massive populations of protected waterfowl. 00:19:27.309 --> 00:19:30.309 And non -waterfowl, migratory birds in general, 00:19:30.769 --> 00:19:33.589 right? Yeah, we've been seeing some change in 00:19:33.589 --> 00:19:36.670 the last few years because of the various agricultural 00:19:36.670 --> 00:19:40.750 situations, warming, various things. But overall, 00:19:41.250 --> 00:19:44.230 we still have a very high population of waterfowl 00:19:44.230 --> 00:19:47.289 at times and just other type of migratory birds. 00:19:47.829 --> 00:19:50.450 We have thousands and thousands of acres of bottomland 00:19:50.450 --> 00:19:57.420 hardwood, bar, swamp. And we also have man -made 00:19:57.420 --> 00:20:00.819 wetlands in that every year you have about I 00:20:00.819 --> 00:20:03.299 think the numbers now up to like 300 ,000 acres 00:20:03.299 --> 00:20:09.480 of fallow rice fields are flooded to raise pond 00:20:09.480 --> 00:20:12.779 -raised crawfish. Right. Before about the 1960s 00:20:12.779 --> 00:20:15.559 they were all caught in swampy areas. Now people 00:20:15.559 --> 00:20:18.960 actually flood out these rice fields they had 00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:21.839 just recently harvested and you have crawfish. 00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:24.579 I grew up on a farm where we had cattle, rice, 00:20:24.660 --> 00:20:28.359 crawfish. We had 180 acres of crawfish at the 00:20:28.359 --> 00:20:31.400 most. And for many years, we sometimes would 00:20:31.400 --> 00:20:37.059 catch over a ton on average per acre. Wow. And 00:20:37.059 --> 00:20:40.279 when I was a kid running traps for my dad, the 00:20:40.279 --> 00:20:43.200 price was like 30, 40, 50 cents. Now we had a 00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:45.460 big drought here last year, and the price was 00:20:45.460 --> 00:20:49.460 up there like $15 a pound. So very important 00:20:49.460 --> 00:20:53.000 rotational crop. for these farmers to not only 00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:56.980 just have their fields for grazing, for cattle, 00:20:57.480 --> 00:21:00.640 for rice production, but they can also catch 00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:05.400 coffees. And that's another thing, part of the 00:21:05.400 --> 00:21:08.680 culture. People love to eat that, eat coffees, 00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:13.839 little lobsters, fresh water. And back to the 00:21:13.839 --> 00:21:16.759 MBTA, we were talking about how that was enacted 00:21:16.759 --> 00:21:22.140 to stop this widespread overutilization, that's 00:21:22.140 --> 00:21:26.640 commercialization. But interestingly, commercialization 00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:31.640 of wildlife still occurs to this day. And I know 00:21:31.640 --> 00:21:33.240 you know who this person is. We're going to do 00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:36.440 a whole episode on a guy named John Perry, who 00:21:36.440 --> 00:21:38.519 went by the nickname Dopey. I know you know who 00:21:38.519 --> 00:21:42.059 that is, going way back. But tell us about an 00:21:42.059 --> 00:21:44.240 agent you know, a fish and wildlife agent you 00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:46.420 know more about than I do, a guy named, I think 00:21:46.420 --> 00:21:51.150 it's Joe, is it Creco? Joe Greco. Greco. Anthony 00:21:51.150 --> 00:21:54.750 Stefano was his real name. And he went frequently, 00:21:55.109 --> 00:21:58.309 his covert name was Joe Greco. Okay. He was actually 00:21:58.309 --> 00:22:01.069 an attorney and he worked for us for a number 00:22:01.069 --> 00:22:04.250 of years and he went to very prominent waterfowl 00:22:04.250 --> 00:22:06.710 spots throughout the country. Chesapeake Bay, 00:22:07.609 --> 00:22:10.769 Coastal Texas, Louisiana, Central Valley of California. 00:22:11.450 --> 00:22:15.190 And he had various covers. The one he used here 00:22:15.190 --> 00:22:18.740 in Louisiana was he posed as a potato chip salesman. 00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:23.220 He'd go around selling, and to just fit in with 00:22:23.220 --> 00:22:25.779 the culture, he'd be like, what do y 'all like 00:22:25.779 --> 00:22:28.099 to do? And they'd ask him invariably, do you 00:22:28.099 --> 00:22:30.180 like to eat ducks? Do you like to eat geese? 00:22:31.140 --> 00:22:34.619 Yes. Well, we'll sell you some. And so he made 00:22:34.619 --> 00:22:39.059 buys here. And anyway, finally, after a number 00:22:39.059 --> 00:22:41.500 of years, it's time to what we call take the 00:22:41.500 --> 00:22:44.900 case down. It's time to make certain search warrants 00:22:44.900 --> 00:22:48.900 and to arrest people. And it was about in Southwest 00:22:48.900 --> 00:22:51.579 Louisiana, I think it was numbers of about 70 00:22:51.579 --> 00:22:54.700 or 80 people arrested for illegally selling waterfowl 00:22:54.700 --> 00:22:58.380 that had been illegal since 1918. It's not like 00:22:58.380 --> 00:23:03.740 this came out of the blue. And anyway, they arrested 00:23:03.740 --> 00:23:06.940 quite a few people somewhere, at least in the 00:23:06.940 --> 00:23:09.240 Louisiana portion, were brought to court for 00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:10.859 initial appearance in Lake Charles, Louisiana 00:23:10.859 --> 00:23:14.440 or Lafayette. And quite a few of the people went 00:23:14.440 --> 00:23:17.700 to jail. And it wasn't super long sentences, 00:23:17.720 --> 00:23:22.640 but when most wildlife cases in America, you 00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:25.940 violate the law, you pay a fine for minimal things. 00:23:26.539 --> 00:23:28.940 But suddenly, people are going to jail. And I 00:23:28.940 --> 00:23:31.240 was a boy in the 60s when this happened. And 00:23:31.240 --> 00:23:35.059 it's like, suddenly, nobody would even think 00:23:35.059 --> 00:23:39.259 about selling waterfowl at all, wild waterfowl. 00:23:39.279 --> 00:23:41.299 So they broke it up. They broke it up. And you 00:23:41.299 --> 00:23:44.740 and I talked about it the other day. of activity, 00:23:44.980 --> 00:23:46.920 especially commercial activity, you just cannot 00:23:46.920 --> 00:23:50.079 slap a person on the wrist. You have to put them 00:23:50.079 --> 00:23:52.420 out of business or just cripple their business 00:23:52.420 --> 00:23:55.740 so much where it's a behavior modification. You 00:23:55.740 --> 00:23:58.279 know, we can't make anybody do anything, but 00:23:58.279 --> 00:24:00.000 not too many people want to spend their time 00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:05.460 in a federal lockup for a situation that they 00:24:05.460 --> 00:24:07.980 don't need to be. Well, even with migratory birds 00:24:07.980 --> 00:24:11.900 now not being allowed generally to speak commercialized, 00:24:12.019 --> 00:24:14.680 I mean, some of the feds as you can, right game 00:24:14.680 --> 00:24:18.059 birds for fly fishing and things like that but 00:24:18.059 --> 00:24:20.160 there's still a lot of money in waterfowl hunting 00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:22.480 and dove hunting and people lease their lands 00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:26.339 and all the clothing the various brands of camouflage 00:24:26.339 --> 00:24:29.759 and shotguns and decoys and boats and motel rooms 00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:33.980 and camps and everything so per se we may not 00:24:33.980 --> 00:24:38.799 be selling feather plumes anymore or carcasses 00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:42.309 to eat but people are making money off the resource 00:24:42.309 --> 00:24:45.009 still in a different way. Yeah, there's always 00:24:45.009 --> 00:24:50.009 somebody looking to game the system, right? Exactly. 00:24:50.509 --> 00:24:54.529 And that case you just described is a classic 00:24:54.529 --> 00:24:57.990 example of how enforcement can actually make 00:24:57.990 --> 00:25:01.430 a big difference in protecting a whole species 00:25:01.430 --> 00:25:04.849 or a whole population of animals because it does 00:25:04.849 --> 00:25:07.789 really deter people. Migratory Bird Treaty Act 00:25:07.789 --> 00:25:10.789 is a wildlife law that actually has felony provisions 00:25:10.789 --> 00:25:13.710 in it. And the felony provisions kick in if you're 00:25:13.710 --> 00:25:17.650 selling or offering to sell migratory bird parts 00:25:17.650 --> 00:25:21.190 or birds. So that's a great case that you talked 00:25:21.190 --> 00:25:26.230 about. Yes, it was. And you know, you have, I 00:25:26.230 --> 00:25:29.210 think, one of the things I always admired about 00:25:29.210 --> 00:25:31.849 you as an agent is that, you know, a lot of times 00:25:31.849 --> 00:25:35.190 as agents, we get focused on catching the next 00:25:35.190 --> 00:25:37.450 bad guy. Who are we going to catch? Who are we 00:25:37.450 --> 00:25:39.369 going to arrest? You know, that's the stories 00:25:39.369 --> 00:25:43.609 that we tell to each other. But you always have 00:25:43.609 --> 00:25:46.589 viewed your responsibility as an enforcement 00:25:46.589 --> 00:25:50.690 officer, not just in catching people and arresting 00:25:50.690 --> 00:25:54.269 people, but in educating people. And I wonder 00:25:54.269 --> 00:25:56.009 if you could just talk about that a little bit 00:25:56.009 --> 00:25:59.769 on how you viewed your role as an agent in terms 00:25:59.769 --> 00:26:03.789 of not just your ability to make that case and 00:26:03.789 --> 00:26:06.190 hold people accountable with consequences in 00:26:06.190 --> 00:26:09.730 court with a conviction, but also just changing 00:26:09.730 --> 00:26:12.210 behavior by education. What do you think the 00:26:12.210 --> 00:26:14.789 role is of an agent in that regard? And I want 00:26:14.789 --> 00:26:18.869 to talk about specifically that case that you 00:26:18.869 --> 00:26:22.829 and I talked about a few days ago after that 00:26:22.829 --> 00:26:26.710 hurricane. Yes, well, state wildlife agencies 00:26:26.710 --> 00:26:31.000 that manage wildlife. and even our old agency, 00:26:31.259 --> 00:26:33.160 the U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service, they have 00:26:33.160 --> 00:26:35.619 information available about what regulations 00:26:35.619 --> 00:26:38.140 and rules are and statutes and everything. But 00:26:38.140 --> 00:26:43.180 that said, I mean, your job is to, when you see 00:26:43.180 --> 00:26:47.039 violations, take people to court. But however, 00:26:47.740 --> 00:26:51.019 if you can solve a situation with just information, 00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:55.220 everybody comes out better. every kind of better. 00:26:55.599 --> 00:26:59.859 And we had a case back in Louisiana back in 2008. 00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:03.319 This was three years after Katrina hit New Orleans, 00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:06.900 when a hurricane came through in early September, 00:27:06.900 --> 00:27:08.880 and that was the height of the harvest season 00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:13.279 for several types of commodities, soybeans, corn, 00:27:13.539 --> 00:27:17.180 cotton. And we have in central Louisiana, back 00:27:17.180 --> 00:27:20.359 then, it was like the largest single piece of 00:27:20.359 --> 00:27:22.559 property that was agricultural and where all 00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:24.920 these crops are planted. and it came through, 00:27:25.099 --> 00:27:28.720 devastated it, they're not gonna harvest, but 00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:30.880 for the purpose of the Migratory Bird Treaty 00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:35.339 Act, baiting regulation for game birds, you can 00:27:35.339 --> 00:27:41.140 hunt for waterfowl, ducks, geese, also sanio 00:27:41.140 --> 00:27:44.579 crane, which is not waterfowl. It's much more 00:27:44.579 --> 00:27:47.039 restrictive rules and regulations than doe hunting. 00:27:47.779 --> 00:27:51.220 And so what these people could have done is the 00:27:51.220 --> 00:27:53.980 crop was lost. They could just flood it up or 00:27:53.980 --> 00:27:56.259 it's already flooded because of 20, 30 inch rain, 00:27:56.259 --> 00:27:58.859 hunt it like that. But they want to go ahead 00:27:58.859 --> 00:28:03.519 and knock it down, plow it, manipulate it. And 00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:06.980 the thought was to get ready for the next planting 00:28:06.980 --> 00:28:09.779 time, which is about a year away, less than a 00:28:09.779 --> 00:28:12.539 year. But anyway, so we told them, you know, 00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:16.420 like, look, you can't do this under the regulation. 00:28:18.490 --> 00:28:21.410 We greatly encourage people to hunt over agriculture 00:28:21.410 --> 00:28:25.589 lands if they're not full agriculture, fake agriculture. 00:28:26.150 --> 00:28:29.309 So this crop that we even allow you the regulation 00:28:29.309 --> 00:28:32.549 to hunt it as it is and even flood it. But normally 00:28:32.549 --> 00:28:34.549 it would be harvested and with the waste grain, 00:28:34.650 --> 00:28:38.450 the water would come in there. So it's like, 00:28:38.849 --> 00:28:41.269 in this hunting area of 40 ,000 acres, they had 00:28:41.269 --> 00:28:44.190 a hundred duck blinds at least for $5 ,000 a 00:28:44.190 --> 00:28:47.980 blind. You know, pretty good money off of that, 00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:52.960 too. And it's to educate some people. Some of 00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:55.160 us a little harder to educate them. So the guy 00:28:55.160 --> 00:28:56.799 called me that was head of the hunting area, 00:28:56.819 --> 00:29:00.220 that area. He says, what's the penalty if we 00:29:00.220 --> 00:29:02.720 don't know this area? I say, well, it can be 00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:05.900 up to six months in jail or fifteen thousand 00:29:05.900 --> 00:29:12.940 dollars or both. If you hunt it. So I get a call 00:29:12.940 --> 00:29:15.509 back about half a week later. He said, well, 00:29:15.569 --> 00:29:21.009 that's a pretty big penalty. I said, well, I'm 00:29:21.009 --> 00:29:23.569 going to tell you about another one that if you 00:29:23.569 --> 00:29:25.750 violate the baiting regulation, particularly 00:29:25.750 --> 00:29:29.170 the placement of bait, or anything in the baiting 00:29:29.170 --> 00:29:32.049 regulation, I said the penalty can go up to one 00:29:32.049 --> 00:29:35.769 year in jail and are $100 ,000 for an individual 00:29:35.769 --> 00:29:38.369 or 200 ,000 for a corporation or double the gross 00:29:38.369 --> 00:29:40.730 gain or double the gross law, as you know in 00:29:40.730 --> 00:29:44.579 the Title 18. So I thought that's going to kind 00:29:44.579 --> 00:29:47.400 of get our message across. And then he calls 00:29:47.400 --> 00:29:50.160 again and he's agitating. I said, look, we've 00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:52.059 got to know a lot because of Lacey Act that has 00:29:52.059 --> 00:29:54.859 felony provisions that it forbids that you leave 00:29:54.859 --> 00:29:59.819 the knowing or sale of illegal wildlife, which 00:29:59.819 --> 00:30:02.960 this is, you've been told this is illegal. So 00:30:02.960 --> 00:30:06.640 this could be up to a five year felony for selling 00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:11.829 illegal guiding or outfitting circus. sealing, 00:30:11.829 --> 00:30:15.109 illegal guiding, outfitting services. So then 00:30:15.109 --> 00:30:16.990 I got a call, which I wish that's the guy who 00:30:16.990 --> 00:30:20.349 would call me to start with, his attorney. And 00:30:20.349 --> 00:30:22.630 we just, you know, we go down to regulation. 00:30:23.190 --> 00:30:25.829 We agree. That's what it says. But it was like, 00:30:26.690 --> 00:30:28.869 you're not going to enforce that. I said, we're 00:30:28.869 --> 00:30:30.869 going to enforce it. Well, debating regulation 00:30:30.869 --> 00:30:33.789 started in the 30s. After that, press pass in 00:30:33.789 --> 00:30:36.349 May 1918. I said, yes, we're going to enforce 00:30:36.349 --> 00:30:43.000 it. And so in my only time in my career, They 00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:46.420 hired a pretty good attorney firm in central 00:30:46.420 --> 00:30:49.819 Louisiana. They filed an injunction against us, 00:30:49.980 --> 00:30:51.380 against the director of the Fish and Wildlife 00:30:51.380 --> 00:30:54.500 Service, or the Fish and Wildlife Service and 00:30:54.500 --> 00:30:56.900 the director. So we had a hearing. The injunction 00:30:56.900 --> 00:30:59.039 was to keep you from enforcing the law, right? 00:30:59.799 --> 00:31:02.480 Regulation. Yeah. But what we knew, not only 00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:04.200 did they have that conversation earlier with 00:31:04.200 --> 00:31:06.740 that particular area where they were hunting, 00:31:07.859 --> 00:31:10.180 I knew it was going to be a problem, so LSU, 00:31:10.400 --> 00:31:12.420 which is the Land Grant College of Louisiana, 00:31:12.579 --> 00:31:15.700 the Agriculture Authority, they put out a news 00:31:15.700 --> 00:31:20.519 release warning people, or just educating people, 00:31:21.319 --> 00:31:23.440 that hunt your field that's been destroyed by 00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:26.500 a hurricane, but don't go manipulate it or knock 00:31:26.500 --> 00:31:29.579 it or plow it down. So when we had that hearing 00:31:29.579 --> 00:31:32.220 in court, you know how it went in court. You 00:31:32.220 --> 00:31:34.359 kind of tell, it kind of sways back and forth. 00:31:34.839 --> 00:31:37.380 But it's looking good for us. But whenever I 00:31:37.380 --> 00:31:40.299 took the stand and the judge learned that we 00:31:40.299 --> 00:31:44.160 had gone the extra mile to notify not only these 00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:47.000 people, but people throughout the state. And 00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:49.640 it's like, look, beware. This is a violation. 00:31:50.359 --> 00:31:52.740 That's strengthen our hand considerably. Excellent. 00:31:52.900 --> 00:31:57.119 Because we were reasonable in our attempt to 00:31:57.119 --> 00:32:00.220 notify people of what the regulation was, what 00:32:00.220 --> 00:32:05.410 the penalty was, and why. I mean, this area there 00:32:05.410 --> 00:32:09.369 that they couldn't hunt, we would surveil it 00:32:09.369 --> 00:32:12.490 two or three times a week for the rest of the 00:32:12.490 --> 00:32:15.529 winter. And they would have at times three quarters 00:32:15.529 --> 00:32:19.529 of a million birds on ducks and or geese. Wow. 00:32:19.730 --> 00:32:23.390 That's pretty significant. Including one of the 00:32:23.390 --> 00:32:26.809 three biggest areas for camisback ducks, which 00:32:26.809 --> 00:32:30.769 is not a very common duck. And there's times 00:32:30.769 --> 00:32:33.700 in that area. where something like 40 % of all 00:32:33.700 --> 00:32:35.779 the cameras back in the world were in there. 00:32:36.200 --> 00:32:39.759 So there was a, there was a huge potential for 00:32:39.759 --> 00:32:43.119 massive take of waterfowl on this one property 00:32:43.119 --> 00:32:46.319 alone, right? Yes. And even if people don't go 00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:49.599 over the limit, the regulations are set up at 00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:52.019 least the biology behind all of it. It's like 00:32:52.019 --> 00:32:55.240 if everybody that goes hunt gets the limit every 00:32:55.240 --> 00:32:58.029 day, the seasons wouldn't be as long. I mean, 00:32:58.170 --> 00:33:00.130 there's some days it's not expected you to get 00:33:00.130 --> 00:33:03.289 a limit, but those birds are so plentiful, they 00:33:03.289 --> 00:33:05.349 were going to have some awfully good hunts, even 00:33:05.349 --> 00:33:08.109 if they never went over to them. Right. You know, 00:33:08.250 --> 00:33:11.309 there's so many interesting things about this 00:33:11.309 --> 00:33:14.769 story that I like, but I think to be fair to 00:33:14.769 --> 00:33:17.250 listeners who are not, if you fish and wildlife 00:33:17.250 --> 00:33:21.430 service agents or state officers, I got to back 00:33:21.430 --> 00:33:23.049 up just a little bit and I'm going to try to 00:33:23.049 --> 00:33:26.599 explain. I'm going to explain this as if I was 00:33:26.599 --> 00:33:28.480 trying to explain it to my mom, and you correct 00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:31.200 me if I'm wrong. But basically what we're talking 00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:33.539 about here, so first of all, we've been talking 00:33:33.539 --> 00:33:37.319 about the MBTA, which prohibits the take or killing, 00:33:37.319 --> 00:33:41.119 whatever, capture of a migratory bird. But with 00:33:41.119 --> 00:33:43.960 regard to waterfowl and doves, and as you mentioned, 00:33:44.140 --> 00:33:47.779 sandhill cranes, there is some hunting allowed, 00:33:48.039 --> 00:33:49.960 and it's set through regulations. The federal 00:33:49.960 --> 00:33:52.509 government sets the regulation. And when they 00:33:52.509 --> 00:33:54.410 talk about limits, that's how many birds you 00:33:54.410 --> 00:33:58.190 could kill per day, per hunter during the hunting 00:33:58.190 --> 00:34:01.390 season. And so those federal regulations are 00:34:01.390 --> 00:34:03.490 set, and those are enforced by either Fish and 00:34:03.490 --> 00:34:06.369 Wildlife or state officers. So there's that. 00:34:06.769 --> 00:34:09.269 But what you're getting into is really interesting 00:34:09.269 --> 00:34:11.829 because you're getting into what's called the 00:34:11.829 --> 00:34:15.610 baiting regulations. And the federal regulations 00:34:15.610 --> 00:34:18.269 generally prohibit hunters from hunting over 00:34:18.269 --> 00:34:22.070 bait. And the reason for that is because obviously 00:34:22.070 --> 00:34:25.670 you get a lot of waterfowl congregating over 00:34:25.670 --> 00:34:28.809 seed or grain or whatever that's put out as bait. 00:34:29.670 --> 00:34:32.889 And you can kill, you know, in one day, you could 00:34:32.889 --> 00:34:36.449 kill hundreds of animals or, you know, just take 00:34:36.449 --> 00:34:40.730 too many, basically. And and what one more thing, 00:34:40.849 --> 00:34:42.809 I got to get it out of my head and then you correct 00:34:42.809 --> 00:34:46.750 me if I'm wrong. So when a field is destroyed 00:34:46.750 --> 00:34:50.039 like that. that is not necessarily bait, but 00:34:50.039 --> 00:34:52.960 if you change it, if you manipulate that, you 00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:55.139 can then create a baited situation where you've 00:34:55.139 --> 00:34:58.239 got a baited field. Is that accurate? That's 00:34:58.239 --> 00:35:02.619 very close. Yes, it's accurate. As you can tell, 00:35:02.679 --> 00:35:04.719 I didn't work on a lot of waterfowl cases. As 00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:09.000 you know, that regulation is not as easy to understand 00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:11.679 as hunting without a license. No, not at all. 00:35:12.059 --> 00:35:17.650 Yeah, and so that's true. Some of the greatest 00:35:17.650 --> 00:35:24.289 waterfowl hunting is on farmland. And so we rely 00:35:24.289 --> 00:35:27.050 on these agriculture extension agencies to tell 00:35:27.050 --> 00:35:31.489 us what actually is legitimate farm practice. 00:35:32.510 --> 00:35:34.909 Because somebody could say, well, I'm planting 00:35:34.909 --> 00:35:39.130 rice in fall. Well, nobody plants rice in America 00:35:39.130 --> 00:35:41.869 right in the late fall or the winter. And so 00:35:41.869 --> 00:35:44.550 it makes people stick with what is necessary 00:35:44.550 --> 00:35:48.730 to have a legitimate crop. And most people want 00:35:48.730 --> 00:35:52.309 to hunt, want to harvest and make money off the 00:35:52.309 --> 00:35:54.570 crop, but there's waste grain left over, which 00:35:54.570 --> 00:35:57.510 attracts waterfowl. It's okay. We're gonna allow 00:35:57.510 --> 00:36:01.550 you to hunt, but you can't have fake agriculture, 00:36:02.030 --> 00:36:04.530 generally speaking. But like the, you know, the 00:36:04.530 --> 00:36:06.349 easiest to understand is you can't go pour out 00:36:06.349 --> 00:36:09.449 of a bucket. or a truck or whatever. In case 00:36:09.449 --> 00:36:12.730 I worked in Arkansas one time, they had a big 00:36:12.730 --> 00:36:14.809 fertilizer spreader and manure spreader, and 00:36:14.809 --> 00:36:17.630 they just would buy the sack, load the grain 00:36:17.630 --> 00:36:20.489 in there. And this is pre -game cameras. And 00:36:20.489 --> 00:36:23.829 so two agents in Arkansas dropped them off for 00:36:23.829 --> 00:36:26.289 four days in a row. And what great video where 00:36:26.289 --> 00:36:29.389 this big truck with swamp tires just spreading 00:36:29.389 --> 00:36:32.289 tons of grain out all over this field. No wonder 00:36:32.289 --> 00:36:36.050 they had good hunts every day. Yeah. So that's 00:36:36.050 --> 00:36:38.570 a good clarification. If it's, if it is a manipulation, 00:36:38.630 --> 00:36:40.949 it's got to be a legitimate agricultural purpose, 00:36:41.489 --> 00:36:44.590 right? Correct. Yeah. As you can tell in, in, 00:36:44.650 --> 00:36:47.349 when I was based in Los Angeles, technical things, 00:36:47.570 --> 00:36:50.849 but if it's a post harvest manipulation, you 00:36:50.849 --> 00:36:54.210 can go, yeah, you can't, you can't manipulate 00:36:54.210 --> 00:37:00.670 prior a standing crop. Right. As you can tell, 00:37:00.730 --> 00:37:02.789 working in Los Angeles, I didn't do a lot of 00:37:02.789 --> 00:37:05.389 waterfowl baiting cases, and they're complicated. 00:37:05.469 --> 00:37:09.369 They're very complicated. And I think it's why 00:37:09.369 --> 00:37:12.730 educating the public is so important. And funny 00:37:12.730 --> 00:37:15.469 enough, Cash, a story just from my career, one 00:37:15.469 --> 00:37:18.889 of the few times I ever thought a situation was 00:37:18.889 --> 00:37:22.210 going to turn violent was when me and two other 00:37:22.210 --> 00:37:26.489 agents were out in the El Centro Valley in Southern 00:37:26.489 --> 00:37:28.929 California. And we did just what you're talking 00:37:28.929 --> 00:37:32.829 about. We found a field that had been, you know, 00:37:33.369 --> 00:37:35.789 I think it had been manipulated, if I remember 00:37:35.789 --> 00:37:38.010 correctly. We went and talked to the landowner 00:37:38.010 --> 00:37:41.190 and we had told him you were not allowed to hunt 00:37:41.190 --> 00:37:43.510 that property and you can't have any of your, 00:37:43.550 --> 00:37:46.630 you can't lease it out for hunting. And he became 00:37:46.630 --> 00:37:49.289 so angry. He was so angry. I thought it was, 00:37:49.309 --> 00:37:53.110 he was gonna be violent with us. Yeah. Yeah. 00:37:53.289 --> 00:37:57.119 I've seen some of that. We don't realize part 00:37:57.119 --> 00:37:59.699 of any kind of law enforcement job is to be also 00:37:59.699 --> 00:38:04.260 psychologist, peacemaker. That is exactly right. 00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:07.159 And, you know, I still don't quite know for sure 00:38:07.159 --> 00:38:10.400 why he backed down. Something happened in our 00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:14.380 interaction and he was, I mean, he was given 00:38:14.380 --> 00:38:16.880 off all those signals that, you know, as law 00:38:16.880 --> 00:38:18.780 enforcement officers, we're trained to recognize 00:38:18.780 --> 00:38:21.380 as pre -assault indicators. And all of a sudden 00:38:21.380 --> 00:38:24.550 he just calm down. And I don't even really understand 00:38:24.550 --> 00:38:26.809 what happened in that relation, in that interaction, 00:38:27.409 --> 00:38:32.150 but he went from almost violent to calm. That's 00:38:32.150 --> 00:38:34.449 why I always try to sell them down pretty quickly. 00:38:34.929 --> 00:38:37.429 If it's just one person and it's one or more 00:38:37.429 --> 00:38:40.829 agents, then it's not as pressing. But when you 00:38:40.829 --> 00:38:43.869 have two or more subjects or their friends there, 00:38:45.250 --> 00:38:51.289 I've seen too many women in particular, significant 00:38:51.289 --> 00:38:53.730 other, like you're going to let this, this government 00:38:53.730 --> 00:38:57.769 man do this to you. It's like, please miss, please, 00:38:57.989 --> 00:39:02.769 sir. Let's all keep this car to where everybody 00:39:02.769 --> 00:39:06.469 goes away from here in one piece with undamaged. 00:39:06.610 --> 00:39:08.449 We're just here to do our thing, protect wildlife. 00:39:09.349 --> 00:39:11.550 And you know, people just get upset. They get 00:39:11.550 --> 00:39:14.309 upset and that's understandable. But when you 00:39:14.309 --> 00:39:17.469 start making those threats, non verbally or verbally, 00:39:18.550 --> 00:39:20.949 We don't want them to get her, and we certainly 00:39:20.949 --> 00:39:24.510 don't want to get her. Exactly. I was on another 00:39:24.510 --> 00:39:27.190 podcast as a guest myself recently, and I was 00:39:27.190 --> 00:39:30.090 telling the story about Vic Blazavik, our agent 00:39:30.090 --> 00:39:32.769 who was shot in the line of duty. And he had 00:39:32.769 --> 00:39:37.190 been ambushed by duck hunters, which I think, 00:39:37.449 --> 00:39:39.389 especially today with a lot of agents working 00:39:39.389 --> 00:39:42.849 on commercialization and international or interstate 00:39:42.849 --> 00:39:45.449 trafficking. You never know who's going to be 00:39:45.449 --> 00:39:47.969 dangerous. It might be that person who's just 00:39:47.969 --> 00:39:49.630 really mad at you because they can't hunt ducks 00:39:49.630 --> 00:39:54.289 today. Correct. You never know. And I've seen 00:39:54.289 --> 00:39:58.269 people and known people that it's an addiction. 00:39:58.389 --> 00:40:01.550 Yeah. In Shreveport, Louisiana, one time a man 00:40:01.550 --> 00:40:05.829 came in and he was about, really, he sentenced 00:40:05.829 --> 00:40:09.510 to six months in jail for hunting. He had had 00:40:09.510 --> 00:40:12.389 a prior fortified violation. He had been put 00:40:12.389 --> 00:40:15.690 on probation. and a fine community service, but 00:40:15.690 --> 00:40:18.250 a special part of probation. You can't hunt anywhere 00:40:18.250 --> 00:40:20.650 in the world for five years. You can't go to 00:40:20.650 --> 00:40:22.809 a hunting camp. You can't be with hunters in 00:40:22.809 --> 00:40:25.750 the field. Well, he hunted and he got caught 00:40:25.750 --> 00:40:29.789 and we made a mistake and he got divorced not 00:40:29.789 --> 00:40:32.409 long after and he just told his wife and back 00:40:32.409 --> 00:40:35.150 to the judge, I love duck hunting more than I 00:40:35.150 --> 00:40:39.750 even love my wife. Well, that's not a good thing 00:40:39.750 --> 00:40:42.110 to say to the judge, especially with your wife 00:40:42.110 --> 00:40:45.710 in the courtroom. Definitely not. Not at all. 00:40:45.929 --> 00:40:48.550 Not at all. Not at all. Tipperary insanity. But 00:40:48.550 --> 00:40:51.230 anyway, but some people, that's their life. I 00:40:51.230 --> 00:40:53.510 mean, so we think about golf, tennis, whatever. 00:40:53.809 --> 00:40:57.670 They want to go to the duck camp every day, every 00:40:57.670 --> 00:41:00.510 day or the deer camp or whatever. That's their 00:41:00.510 --> 00:41:04.610 thing. That's their thing. Exactly. And that's 00:41:04.610 --> 00:41:06.750 true all across the U S there's a, there's kind 00:41:06.750 --> 00:41:09.420 of a There's a great case that one of our agents 00:41:09.420 --> 00:41:13.559 in Idaho did once, and the penalty included not 00:41:13.559 --> 00:41:16.099 only inability to hunt on federal land, but you 00:41:16.099 --> 00:41:18.860 couldn't even, the defendant during his probationary 00:41:18.860 --> 00:41:21.179 period, he couldn't even visit federal land. 00:41:22.559 --> 00:41:25.940 And Idaho, there's a large percentage of Idaho 00:41:25.940 --> 00:41:29.920 is either US Forest Service, BLM, and this poor 00:41:29.920 --> 00:41:34.820 guy in Boise. Really, that impacted his life. 00:41:35.159 --> 00:41:38.039 Well, Dave Hall, who you've heard of, I don't 00:41:38.039 --> 00:41:40.679 know if you've met him. Dave's kind of a very 00:41:40.679 --> 00:41:43.320 famous fish and wildlife agent. Yeah. Well, he 00:41:43.320 --> 00:41:46.500 also was a master's graduate in wildlife management 00:41:46.500 --> 00:41:49.679 from Mississippi State University. He had a questionnaire 00:41:49.679 --> 00:41:52.840 that the professors did for him and asked four 00:41:52.840 --> 00:41:56.659 questions. How many times during the course of 00:41:56.659 --> 00:41:59.400 a year do you go over the limit on waterfowl 00:41:59.400 --> 00:42:02.599 or ducks? How many times do you go over the limit 00:42:02.599 --> 00:42:07.570 on geese? Do you hunt of a rate? Do you for geese? 00:42:07.610 --> 00:42:10.369 Do you not? And they already knew that all the 00:42:10.369 --> 00:42:11.809 people, the questionnaire were sent to were hunters 00:42:11.809 --> 00:42:14.690 that had already been apprehended. Okay. And 00:42:14.690 --> 00:42:17.789 what do you think the penalty should be? And 00:42:17.789 --> 00:42:20.349 almost a person, the worst thing was not serving 00:42:20.349 --> 00:42:23.050 time in jail. It was to be put on probation and 00:42:23.050 --> 00:42:25.070 have your hunting rights taken away. Exactly. 00:42:25.190 --> 00:42:27.550 Cause I mean, we have had some people go into 00:42:27.550 --> 00:42:30.639 clinical depression. Because, you know, their 00:42:30.639 --> 00:42:32.619 life was around being at the camp since they 00:42:32.619 --> 00:42:34.460 were little children, and now you can't even 00:42:34.460 --> 00:42:37.760 go to the camp. Right. Or with any hunter in 00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:39.639 the world. Yeah. You don't have to put people 00:42:39.639 --> 00:42:41.579 in jail when you have penalties like that. That's 00:42:41.579 --> 00:42:43.860 true. That's a good point. You know, sometimes 00:42:43.860 --> 00:42:46.559 we lament the fact that some of our penalties 00:42:46.559 --> 00:42:49.159 are fairly low under the federal sentencing guidelines. 00:42:49.239 --> 00:42:53.239 But there's a lot of things a judge can do to 00:42:53.239 --> 00:42:56.059 deliver consequences to somebody and change their 00:42:56.059 --> 00:43:00.579 behavior. And somebody... preservation, more 00:43:00.579 --> 00:43:03.059 so non -game birds, and migratory birds can be 00:43:03.059 --> 00:43:05.460 divided non -game and game, of course ducks and 00:43:05.460 --> 00:43:08.500 geese and doves, cane birds, very structured 00:43:08.500 --> 00:43:12.539 seasons. And certainly we want the species to 00:43:12.539 --> 00:43:14.920 get threatened or endangered, but also the whole 00:43:14.920 --> 00:43:18.940 sport of hunting is to evenly spread the resource. 00:43:19.800 --> 00:43:21.239 You know, you don't get to, because you have 00:43:21.239 --> 00:43:23.980 the great hunting spot, kill 100, 200 ducks or 00:43:23.980 --> 00:43:27.199 whatever. The limits are usually way below 10, 00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:29.539 10 at the most for a waterfowl. And that way 00:43:29.539 --> 00:43:31.719 you kill your share and your neighbor can maybe 00:43:31.719 --> 00:43:35.000 kill a few too. And, but when you get to, I want 00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:39.360 it all. Yeah. It's just not good for the species. 00:43:39.460 --> 00:43:42.500 Not good for the whole idea of sport hunting. 00:43:42.860 --> 00:43:45.639 Exactly. Yeah. Every regulation we have regarding 00:43:45.639 --> 00:43:50.019 migratory gamers is like limits take in some 00:43:50.019 --> 00:43:54.090 kind of way. When the act passed in 1918, there 00:43:54.090 --> 00:43:56.710 were only two components. You either were a non 00:43:56.710 --> 00:43:58.170 -game bird where you couldn't hunt at all, or 00:43:58.170 --> 00:44:01.170 game bird, if it's a game bird, when the season 00:44:01.170 --> 00:44:04.269 was and when the limit was. Then later we realized 00:44:04.269 --> 00:44:07.050 by the 30s and the country was in this deep drought, 00:44:08.010 --> 00:44:11.150 all over, the numbers plummeted at waterfowl. 00:44:11.170 --> 00:44:12.389 That's when they came up with the federal duck 00:44:12.389 --> 00:44:14.949 stamp, another act to support wetland purchase. 00:44:15.789 --> 00:44:18.650 And so you had all these people, you know, what 00:44:18.650 --> 00:44:22.650 are we gonna do? And so they came up with things 00:44:22.650 --> 00:44:25.690 like baiting. You couldn't bait, you couldn't 00:44:25.690 --> 00:44:28.590 use shotguns with capable of holding more than 00:44:28.590 --> 00:44:31.250 three shells at one time. And if you have the 00:44:31.250 --> 00:44:33.650 regulation to restrict harvest a little further, 00:44:34.429 --> 00:44:38.550 live decoys, that was passed then too. So yeah, 00:44:38.730 --> 00:44:40.469 I mean, we got to do what we got to do to keep 00:44:40.469 --> 00:44:46.289 it to where we too much impact on the species. 00:44:46.539 --> 00:44:50.340 No idea where the birds have enough numbers to 00:44:50.340 --> 00:44:52.920 reproduce and keep their numbers steady, or if 00:44:52.920 --> 00:44:55.619 they're down, bring them back to our land. Exactly. 00:44:55.780 --> 00:44:59.559 Exactly. So it's there for everybody. Yes, everybody. 00:44:59.760 --> 00:45:01.820 And many people, there's more money in bird watching 00:45:01.820 --> 00:45:04.760 than there is in hunting. Yes. That's a deck 00:45:04.760 --> 00:45:08.639 -and -eye boon to the country. That is true. 00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:12.559 Wildlife watchers now, the money that they spend 00:45:12.559 --> 00:45:18.019 on doing that activity out outstrips what hunters 00:45:18.019 --> 00:45:20.139 and fishermen spend on that activity. I always 00:45:20.139 --> 00:45:23.760 find that very interesting. With regard to that 00:45:23.760 --> 00:45:26.159 case you just described with the hurricane, one 00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:28.519 of the things I love about it is so many people 00:45:28.519 --> 00:45:30.760 that we deal with in an enforcement capacity, 00:45:31.139 --> 00:45:33.360 as you know, when you arrest somebody or you 00:45:33.360 --> 00:45:36.380 give them a notice of violation or a citation, 00:45:36.860 --> 00:45:39.480 they often characterize us as overly aggressive 00:45:39.480 --> 00:45:44.360 or jackbooted thugs or very cold, mindless enforcement 00:45:44.360 --> 00:45:47.920 officers. But the example you gave there were, 00:45:48.019 --> 00:45:50.820 you know, you and I'm sure other agents went 00:45:50.820 --> 00:45:55.019 above and beyond to educate, educate the violators, 00:45:55.260 --> 00:45:58.239 potential violators before they became violators. 00:45:58.320 --> 00:46:01.099 Yeah. I mean, it's such a great example of we 00:46:01.099 --> 00:46:03.039 are not out there just to put as many people 00:46:03.039 --> 00:46:05.800 in jail as we can or get as many people caught. 00:46:06.099 --> 00:46:08.159 We're trying to save the species. That's what 00:46:08.159 --> 00:46:12.440 we're trying to do. Sure. And I mean, like information. 00:46:12.829 --> 00:46:15.889 is always available, a phone, internet, whatever 00:46:15.889 --> 00:46:20.550 websites. And, um, the, think about a hunter 00:46:20.550 --> 00:46:22.510 or a fisherman, especially if they've been out 00:46:22.510 --> 00:46:25.809 of a while, they, they know, or should know the 00:46:25.809 --> 00:46:28.110 regulation. I mean, there've been many people 00:46:28.110 --> 00:46:32.309 I apprehended on whatever hunting violation and, 00:46:32.690 --> 00:46:34.429 uh, they would have the regulation with them. 00:46:34.469 --> 00:46:37.750 And I'd ask them, did you read this? Well, no. 00:46:40.050 --> 00:46:42.369 Exactly. Or they didn't have it. And I says, 00:46:42.679 --> 00:46:46.480 you could have called me. Exactly. Call one of 00:46:46.480 --> 00:46:50.099 us and inquire, and just load the gun and go. 00:46:50.460 --> 00:46:55.320 Exactly. So listen, we're coming close to our 00:46:55.320 --> 00:46:58.320 end of time here. But before I let you go, I 00:46:58.320 --> 00:47:01.139 wanted to just ask you, is there something, as 00:47:01.139 --> 00:47:03.539 you look back on your career, both as a federal 00:47:03.539 --> 00:47:06.739 agent and as a state officer, is there any one 00:47:06.739 --> 00:47:08.840 thing that kind of jumps out at you that you're 00:47:08.840 --> 00:47:11.900 really proud of or really feel was a great accomplishment? 00:47:13.119 --> 00:47:17.739 Well, I think that I had an advantage growing 00:47:17.739 --> 00:47:20.980 up on a farm where we were waterfowl. We were 00:47:20.980 --> 00:47:22.480 migratory bird hunters and we had a lot of other 00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:24.840 migratory birds. And I did a lot of reading of 00:47:24.840 --> 00:47:31.719 Aldo Leopold and Muir Thoreau. And I'd read Field 00:47:31.719 --> 00:47:34.920 and Stream or other outdoor hook and bullet magazines. 00:47:35.320 --> 00:47:37.599 And I'd read these stories of people that would 00:47:37.599 --> 00:47:40.280 obey the law. Yeah. And I thought it was fictional 00:47:40.280 --> 00:47:44.230 almost because It's a problem that where there's 00:47:44.230 --> 00:47:48.590 an abundance, even a small fraction of people 00:47:48.590 --> 00:47:51.210 that are hundreds of fishermen can destroy the 00:47:51.210 --> 00:47:55.489 resource. They're just so greedy. And so I think 00:47:55.489 --> 00:47:59.530 these situations where we worked hard to apprehend 00:47:59.530 --> 00:48:01.409 these people, in particular, making a lot of 00:48:01.409 --> 00:48:04.809 money off of whatever they were doing illegally, 00:48:05.409 --> 00:48:08.170 or even just sport wise. I mean, there's people 00:48:08.460 --> 00:48:11.219 that they don't know for whatever reason, it's 00:48:11.219 --> 00:48:13.699 their fault they don't know. But people willfully, 00:48:13.860 --> 00:48:17.880 knowingly, we have this public trust over wildlife. 00:48:19.300 --> 00:48:22.420 And, you know, I had one billionaire I apprehended 00:48:22.420 --> 00:48:24.559 in my career, and that was like 30 plus years 00:48:24.559 --> 00:48:28.019 ago. And the talk is, well, if he couldn't get 00:48:28.019 --> 00:48:31.739 out of it, we, the common folk, what chance do 00:48:31.739 --> 00:48:35.679 we have? So just apprehended of that person and 00:48:35.679 --> 00:48:37.940 the successful prosecution and the good penalty. 00:48:38.500 --> 00:48:40.920 changed other people's behavior. Yeah. You make 00:48:40.920 --> 00:48:43.440 the right case and you can deter future bad actors 00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:45.179 for sure. It's not like we're picking on anybody, 00:48:45.360 --> 00:48:48.860 but we have to go where we can make the best 00:48:48.860 --> 00:48:56.639 effort for the resource. 100%. 100%. Cash, thank 00:48:56.639 --> 00:48:59.539 you so much. Thank you so much for all of your 00:48:59.539 --> 00:49:02.519 service to the people of Louisiana and the United 00:49:02.519 --> 00:49:05.030 States. I really appreciate it. It was such a 00:49:05.030 --> 00:49:06.929 great honor to work with you as a colleague, 00:49:06.929 --> 00:49:08.710 and it's so great to have you on the show. I 00:49:08.710 --> 00:49:10.929 really appreciate it. Well, thank you. You're 00:49:10.929 --> 00:49:13.590 doing a good thing in your retirement, semi -retirement, 00:49:13.889 --> 00:49:17.989 and we love it. All right. Fantastic, Cash. Thanks 00:49:17.989 --> 00:49:20.750 again for talking to us. Hopefully, we'll have 00:49:20.750 --> 00:49:23.989 a chance to have you on again sometime. Nature's 00:49:23.989 --> 00:49:26.070 Secret Service is written and produced by me, 00:49:26.170 --> 00:49:28.949 Ed Newcomer, and is co -produced by the DHTV 00:49:28.949 --> 00:49:31.849 team here at California State University Dominguez 00:49:31.849 --> 00:49:34.159 Hills. Follow us on social media and connect 00:49:34.159 --> 00:49:36.820 with us online at naturessecretservice .com.