WEBVTT 00:00:02.120 --> 00:00:04.839 Hey guys, if you're enjoying our conversation 00:00:04.839 --> 00:00:07.799 with Marie palladini You can see photos of Marie 00:00:07.799 --> 00:00:10.599 on the job or you can look at documents related 00:00:10.599 --> 00:00:13.419 to the case We're going to discuss today at nature's 00:00:13.419 --> 00:00:41.820 secret service calm. Thanks for listening Okay, 00:00:41.960 --> 00:00:44.539 everybody, listen up. Here we go. I'm Ed Newcomer. 00:00:44.640 --> 00:00:47.119 I'm the host of Nature's Secret Service, the 00:00:47.119 --> 00:00:49.320 podcast that puts you in the room with the men 00:00:49.320 --> 00:00:53.000 and women of wildlife law enforcement. Last week, 00:00:53.439 --> 00:00:55.439 we had a great episode with Marie Palladini. 00:00:55.560 --> 00:00:57.640 It was so good, we have to split it into two. 00:00:58.840 --> 00:01:01.960 So we're back with Marie today to finish hearing 00:01:01.960 --> 00:01:05.140 her story about how she almost single -handedly 00:01:05.140 --> 00:01:07.459 saved the American alligator. Last week, when 00:01:07.459 --> 00:01:09.599 we wrapped up, you were telling us how you were 00:01:09.599 --> 00:01:11.459 a brand new agent straight out of the Academy 00:01:11.459 --> 00:01:13.599 and dropped right into the Special Operations 00:01:13.599 --> 00:01:16.260 Unit to work on an alligator trafficking case. 00:01:16.920 --> 00:01:19.280 So you're in SOU and then so what happens? They 00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:22.140 ship you to Louisiana? So I go to Louisiana to 00:01:22.140 --> 00:01:26.959 meet AJ. And what's AJ like? Describe AJ. AJ 00:01:26.959 --> 00:01:30.560 is... I assume he's a typical informant. Well, 00:01:30.739 --> 00:01:34.379 I don't know. You know... Personality wise, yes. 00:01:35.840 --> 00:01:39.159 But AJ, well, yeah, he's a typical format. But 00:01:39.159 --> 00:01:41.599 when I think about him, I spent a couple weeks 00:01:41.599 --> 00:01:45.819 with him. He's the kind of guy that if you're 00:01:45.819 --> 00:01:49.159 not talking to him about the actual crime we're 00:01:49.159 --> 00:01:52.120 committing or he's committing, he's kind of OK. 00:01:52.859 --> 00:01:56.459 You could have a beer with him, I guess. Kind 00:01:56.459 --> 00:01:59.500 of a handsome man, actually, in a rugged way. 00:02:01.759 --> 00:02:05.079 obviously, um, outdoorsy. He lived in the marsh. 00:02:05.640 --> 00:02:08.280 Um, he was kind of crude, you know, I don't know 00:02:08.280 --> 00:02:10.860 if he ever showered, you know, that kind of guy. 00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:14.479 Um, had an accent, very much a Cajun or Creole 00:02:14.479 --> 00:02:17.639 type accent from living in the marsh in Louisiana. 00:02:19.259 --> 00:02:23.120 But he was very, very savvy. He was the kind 00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:25.960 of guy that if you had to have an informant and 00:02:25.960 --> 00:02:28.400 work with him, you knew he was going to do what 00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:30.759 you needed to do to get the job done. That's 00:02:30.759 --> 00:02:32.020 interesting. He wasn't going to flake out on 00:02:32.020 --> 00:02:34.180 you, right? Which is a problem with informants, 00:02:34.319 --> 00:02:37.819 as you and I both know. Well, I resisted. I could 00:02:37.819 --> 00:02:41.240 never. I watched you work with informants during 00:02:41.240 --> 00:02:43.699 the time we worked together and I worked for 00:02:43.699 --> 00:02:47.789 you. I couldn't. understand how you get the patients 00:02:47.789 --> 00:02:50.610 to do it. I couldn't stand working with informants. 00:02:50.629 --> 00:02:53.629 They drove me crazy. It's hard. Yeah. I mean, 00:02:53.909 --> 00:02:55.669 why are they informants? They're dirt balls. 00:02:55.689 --> 00:02:58.349 I mean, they're people that, you know. Most of 00:02:58.349 --> 00:02:59.909 them. Most of them. Not all of them. So, but, 00:03:00.150 --> 00:03:01.750 you know, yeah, I don't want to generalize too 00:03:01.750 --> 00:03:03.490 much. But they generally don't follow your directions. 00:03:03.509 --> 00:03:06.590 No. It's like herding cats. No. Yeah. And you 00:03:06.590 --> 00:03:09.530 got to kind of, it does take patience, but it 00:03:09.530 --> 00:03:12.949 also takes the, to me, I had to tell myself, 00:03:12.949 --> 00:03:16.310 well, He knows this way better than I do. This 00:03:16.310 --> 00:03:19.250 is his life. He has lived his life committing 00:03:19.250 --> 00:03:21.349 this type of crime. I have not. I'm learning 00:03:21.349 --> 00:03:23.930 it, but is it ever gonna be natural for me like 00:03:23.930 --> 00:03:26.509 it is for him? No. So I'm gonna rely on this 00:03:26.509 --> 00:03:31.490 informant. So AJ physically looked like somebody 00:03:31.490 --> 00:03:35.310 that lived in the marsh. He had cold black hair. 00:03:35.719 --> 00:03:38.060 He always wore a black t -shirt, you know, just 00:03:38.060 --> 00:03:40.159 kind of that stereotypical guy that I hate to 00:03:40.159 --> 00:03:42.500 say, use that word, but he is. You know, if he 00:03:42.500 --> 00:03:44.379 walks in my office as a Fish and Wildlife agent, 00:03:44.460 --> 00:03:46.300 I'm thinking, okay, he wants to turn somebody 00:03:46.300 --> 00:03:49.960 in. Probably drove a pickup truck, no doubt. 00:03:50.099 --> 00:03:54.699 Probably. So I think he did. But yeah, so they 00:03:54.699 --> 00:03:57.139 wanted me to meet AJ to see, well, can you do 00:03:57.139 --> 00:03:58.379 this? Because we don't know how long this is 00:03:58.379 --> 00:04:01.120 going to take. Basically, the outline of the 00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:03.199 operation was you and AJ are going to get the 00:04:03.199 --> 00:04:06.129 alligator skins. a couple hundred of them, you're 00:04:06.129 --> 00:04:09.449 gonna transport them in a van that the government's 00:04:09.449 --> 00:04:11.729 gonna provide you with. You're gonna drive it 00:04:11.729 --> 00:04:13.990 up to New York from New Orleans and you're gonna 00:04:13.990 --> 00:04:16.370 deliver them to Kelly whenever he tells you where 00:04:16.370 --> 00:04:19.250 and when. And then once you deliver them, you 00:04:19.250 --> 00:04:21.470 don't know how long you're gonna be there till 00:04:21.470 --> 00:04:23.930 you get paid. Because the deal has to go through 00:04:23.930 --> 00:04:28.120 before AJ gets paid. all the evidence is gathered 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:30.779 to prove that this is a conspiracy. They know 00:04:30.779 --> 00:04:32.439 what they're doing and they're sending everything 00:04:32.439 --> 00:04:34.360 overseas. That's why you need to be there. And 00:04:34.360 --> 00:04:37.000 that's why I had to be there. Got it. So they 00:04:37.000 --> 00:04:39.540 sent me to New Orleans. This happened very quickly. 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:41.800 I mean, I got out of the Academy I think in, 00:04:41.800 --> 00:04:43.600 I don't know, August and this was in October. 00:04:43.959 --> 00:04:45.660 Yeah, your head must have been spinning. It was. 00:04:45.860 --> 00:04:49.019 But I think in a way it was spinning because 00:04:49.019 --> 00:04:53.540 I really, I really didn't know what I was doing. 00:04:54.079 --> 00:04:57.860 I mean, I knew enough from the Academy. But I 00:04:57.860 --> 00:05:01.019 didn't realize how dangerous it was, I think. 00:05:03.819 --> 00:05:05.800 When I think about hindsight. I'll bet you did. 00:05:06.120 --> 00:05:08.899 But you were young, and you were confident. Yeah. 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:11.579 Yeah, I just wanted to catch them. I mean, that's 00:05:11.579 --> 00:05:13.420 kind of what it was. So the focus was there. 00:05:13.720 --> 00:05:16.139 But so I go to New Orleans, I meet AJ, and we 00:05:16.139 --> 00:05:20.000 come up with this plan. Dave Hall helped. But 00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:23.040 the plan had to be pretty simple. as a cover. 00:05:23.540 --> 00:05:25.399 But first of all, they wanted me to make sure 00:05:25.399 --> 00:05:27.819 I could tolerate him. Which was fine, it was 00:05:27.819 --> 00:05:31.939 okay. Yeah, because there has to be some camaraderie 00:05:31.939 --> 00:05:33.199 there and nobody's going to believe you're his 00:05:33.199 --> 00:05:35.819 girlfriend, right? Right. I mean, yeah. You're 00:05:35.819 --> 00:05:37.180 going to have to fake it to make it. Actually. 00:05:37.759 --> 00:05:41.360 Actually, that's true. That was the beauty of 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:43.379 youth at the time, too, right? And I was kind 00:05:43.379 --> 00:05:46.199 of like, oh, this is fine. So I met him. We had 00:05:46.199 --> 00:05:47.819 coffee or whatever we did, had a beer. And I 00:05:47.819 --> 00:05:49.560 told Dave Hall, this is going to be fine. So 00:05:49.560 --> 00:05:51.139 then we put together our story, which had to 00:05:51.139 --> 00:05:58.180 be very, very tight because we were dealing with 00:05:58.180 --> 00:06:03.120 basic people that who had committed a lot of 00:06:03.120 --> 00:06:05.500 crimes. And they were very savvy and on to what 00:06:05.500 --> 00:06:09.240 we might be doing. So we drove up. So I met him. 00:06:09.259 --> 00:06:13.420 It was fine. We made our plan. We put skins in 00:06:13.420 --> 00:06:18.319 the in the van and we drove up from Louisiana 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:20.899 and we went to New York. We had to stop in the 00:06:20.899 --> 00:06:24.439 way halfway and we made calls. Okay. Basically. 00:06:25.560 --> 00:06:28.279 So you stayed overnight? Yes. How does that work? 00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:29.779 Couple times. How does that work? Actually more 00:06:29.779 --> 00:06:32.240 than a couple times. Okay, so I'm sure everybody 00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:34.079 listening is going to want to know, how does 00:06:34.079 --> 00:06:36.620 this work when a female undercover agent is with 00:06:36.620 --> 00:06:39.540 a dirt bag informant? Yeah. And you got to stay 00:06:39.540 --> 00:06:41.959 overnight. And you get no training in this. And 00:06:41.959 --> 00:06:43.759 why are you doing it that way, right? Like, why 00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:47.800 not get separate rooms? And the answer is somebody 00:06:47.800 --> 00:06:49.980 might be surveilling you, right? Exactly. Yeah. 00:06:49.980 --> 00:06:53.939 Yeah. So we had to, we drove up from New Orleans. 00:06:54.199 --> 00:06:56.560 and had to stop in New Jersey, I'm sorry where 00:06:56.560 --> 00:06:58.759 it was, somewhere halfway. Anyway, we stopped 00:06:58.759 --> 00:07:00.620 there and there was a surveillance team with 00:07:00.620 --> 00:07:03.560 us. So they were in the hotel as well. And then 00:07:03.560 --> 00:07:05.839 we did stay in the same room. The first night 00:07:05.839 --> 00:07:12.279 was very, very awful. Horrible, strange. But 00:07:12.279 --> 00:07:14.740 it was a hotel room and there were two of those 00:07:14.740 --> 00:07:16.800 beds, like two double beds, so that night wasn't 00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:19.199 too bad. But the thing of it is, and this goes 00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:25.079 with youth, I was pretty tolerant of, you know, 00:07:25.339 --> 00:07:27.040 where I slept. It wasn't like I just got out 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:28.680 of college where, you know, I did live in a nice 00:07:28.680 --> 00:07:31.180 house. I never had all the luxuries we have today. 00:07:31.459 --> 00:07:33.879 So this was a little easier for me to be with 00:07:33.879 --> 00:07:38.420 him overnight. And I knew the other agents were 00:07:38.420 --> 00:07:41.399 next door. So that was kind of okay interesting 00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:43.939 and the first night was fine I mean I didn't 00:07:43.939 --> 00:07:45.899 sleep much but I knew that the next day we were 00:07:45.899 --> 00:07:48.079 gonna be meeting the bad guys I see so we drove 00:07:48.079 --> 00:07:49.699 we stayed in the hotel was not a big problem 00:07:49.699 --> 00:07:52.459 We called the bad guys and met them the next 00:07:52.459 --> 00:07:55.720 day in New Jersey. They gave us a meeting point 00:07:55.720 --> 00:07:59.459 and the guy Kelly's partner was a guy named green 00:07:59.459 --> 00:08:02.819 black. Uh -huh, and he gave us instructions along 00:08:02.819 --> 00:08:06.610 the way we We had to make sure we had enough 00:08:06.610 --> 00:08:10.649 skins. We did all that we stopped to maybe replenish 00:08:10.649 --> 00:08:12.930 them I think we did that you needed more to make 00:08:12.930 --> 00:08:14.930 the deal to make the deal work the way it was 00:08:14.930 --> 00:08:17.050 supposed to work We needed more skins to make 00:08:17.050 --> 00:08:19.329 it as he'd done in the past and we didn't have 00:08:19.329 --> 00:08:21.149 enough So we had to stop and the fish and wildlife 00:08:21.149 --> 00:08:23.490 gave us more that had been confiscated and been 00:08:23.490 --> 00:08:25.250 you know They were done. They were property now. 00:08:25.430 --> 00:08:29.750 Yeah So we had a realistic looking load. Okay, 00:08:29.829 --> 00:08:32.620 I think there were Maybe a couple hundred. Nice. 00:08:32.820 --> 00:08:35.919 Yeah. So we delivered them. We got to New Jersey 00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:39.580 and the instructions were to meet us at such 00:08:39.580 --> 00:08:42.320 and such a point, which we did. So we met this 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:45.179 colleague, lack of a better word, co -conspirator 00:08:45.179 --> 00:08:49.899 of Kelly named Greenblatt. So Greenblatt, Billy 00:08:49.899 --> 00:08:52.120 was his name. Billy Greenblatt met us and told 00:08:52.120 --> 00:08:54.500 us where to drive to. He followed us in the van 00:08:54.500 --> 00:08:58.759 and we went to Kelly's store. Kelly owned a discount 00:08:58.759 --> 00:09:01.460 clothing store. Because Kelly, besides dealing 00:09:01.460 --> 00:09:04.899 in alligator skins, dealt in hijacked truck goods. 00:09:05.620 --> 00:09:07.620 You know, he was part of a whole group of guys 00:09:07.620 --> 00:09:10.000 that would hijack trucks, take the clothes, and 00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:11.820 then sell them in his shop. Interesting. Yeah, 00:09:11.820 --> 00:09:14.460 he was kind of a small mobster. And not uncommon, 00:09:14.679 --> 00:09:16.360 right? You know, if you're involved in one crime, 00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:17.919 you're likely going to be involved in others, 00:09:17.919 --> 00:09:20.220 because in the end, it is about money. Yes. And 00:09:20.220 --> 00:09:24.480 this is why I think, you know, even sometimes 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:28.960 agents underestimate the danger, because, you 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:32.960 know, They they lull themselves into this idea 00:09:32.960 --> 00:09:35.159 that well, this guy's just involved in wildlife 00:09:35.159 --> 00:09:37.200 crime. He's not gonna hurt me But this guy's 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:41.019 a hardcore criminal. Yes, and important point 00:09:41.019 --> 00:09:44.919 before we went in AJ said you can't have your 00:09:44.919 --> 00:09:47.500 guide and badge with you. Oh, wow. Yeah, normally 00:09:47.500 --> 00:09:50.320 explain that too because I did undercover work 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:53.360 in my career, too Sometimes I carried a weapon 00:09:53.360 --> 00:09:55.830 when I was undercover And sometimes I didn't. 00:09:56.049 --> 00:09:58.289 I assume you were the same, yeah? Exactly. Depending 00:09:58.289 --> 00:10:01.190 on the situation. The band is one thing that 00:10:01.190 --> 00:10:03.639 probably I... in most times when I was working 00:10:03.639 --> 00:10:05.120 undercover, I did not. Yeah, I never carried 00:10:05.120 --> 00:10:08.100 my badge when I was undercover. No. But the gun 00:10:08.100 --> 00:10:09.980 thing kind of concerned me because I knew that 00:10:09.980 --> 00:10:12.179 these, the profile of these people was that they 00:10:12.179 --> 00:10:14.000 were pretty dangerous. And I knew that they were 00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:16.679 probably carrying a firearm. Right. But he said 00:10:16.679 --> 00:10:19.580 that AJ told me, Kelly will go through your purse. 00:10:19.659 --> 00:10:21.480 He will look at things. He will go through your 00:10:21.480 --> 00:10:23.620 bag. We're going to be staying near him or with 00:10:23.620 --> 00:10:28.919 him. It's not going to be a situation where... 00:10:28.779 --> 00:10:30.679 he would take it lightly. If he found something 00:10:30.679 --> 00:10:32.779 like that, he would know you were an agent. So 00:10:32.779 --> 00:10:35.940 that's kind of was a decision I had to make where 00:10:35.940 --> 00:10:38.799 I had to not take it in with me. And Dave Hall 00:10:38.799 --> 00:10:40.759 and the other agents, you know, left it up to 00:10:40.759 --> 00:10:43.779 me pretty much. Not really. But I pretty much 00:10:43.779 --> 00:10:46.179 said, OK, I won't take it. And it's funny because 00:10:46.179 --> 00:10:49.519 later in your career, you probably know that's 00:10:49.519 --> 00:10:53.440 one of those examples where if an informant can 00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:57.149 kind of sneak the. power dynamic change on you 00:10:57.149 --> 00:10:59.029 and that's one of the things you always got to 00:10:59.029 --> 00:11:01.090 be on guard on with an informant they're not 00:11:01.090 --> 00:11:04.470 in charge right ever but they'll try to take 00:11:04.470 --> 00:11:08.009 charge and they'll try to like influence you 00:11:08.009 --> 00:11:11.269 and convince you that they know best and I guarantee 00:11:11.269 --> 00:11:12.909 later in your career you probably would have 00:11:12.909 --> 00:11:15.259 been like oh screw you I'm gonna take my No, 00:11:15.759 --> 00:11:18.240 because I had a recorder in my bag. So, you know, 00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:20.600 that's the same idea. I don't think AJ knew about 00:11:20.600 --> 00:11:23.480 that. You know, but yeah, I mean, it's you're 00:11:23.480 --> 00:11:25.580 exactly right. And that's a learning process, 00:11:25.580 --> 00:11:27.799 which is kind of interesting to me that the higher 00:11:27.799 --> 00:11:31.080 ups went with it, you know, because I was depending 00:11:31.080 --> 00:11:35.480 on them to guide me and give me advice. So that. 00:11:35.549 --> 00:11:38.470 It happened. No gun, no bat. But there was a 00:11:38.470 --> 00:11:41.409 very, very heavy, excuse me, surveillance on 00:11:41.409 --> 00:11:43.610 us. I felt pretty comfortable. How many agents 00:11:43.610 --> 00:11:46.090 did they have on you? They had probably eight 00:11:46.090 --> 00:11:47.830 or 10. Wow, that's a good cover team. From New 00:11:47.830 --> 00:11:51.610 York, yeah, from customs. Because it was a joint 00:11:51.610 --> 00:11:54.690 case because of the import export issues. So 00:11:54.690 --> 00:11:56.330 we did work with the United States Customs at 00:11:56.330 --> 00:11:58.870 the time. And this is interesting because this 00:11:58.870 --> 00:12:02.029 is not the days of cell phones and micro recorders. 00:12:02.309 --> 00:12:04.049 When you say you had a recorder in your bag, 00:12:04.220 --> 00:12:07.100 Tell the listeners what kind of recorders we 00:12:07.100 --> 00:12:10.799 were using in the 70s. Well, in the 70s we were 00:12:10.799 --> 00:12:14.740 using pretty big cassette recorders that didn't 00:12:14.740 --> 00:12:19.129 have great Audio aid and they were heavy and 00:12:19.129 --> 00:12:21.509 they were real -to -real tapes. Yeah, you know 00:12:21.509 --> 00:12:25.049 Were they called negros? Yeah Dave Hall actually 00:12:25.049 --> 00:12:28.950 Had some funding where he did buy a nagra recorder, 00:12:28.970 --> 00:12:30.710 which they were very expensive They were four 00:12:30.710 --> 00:12:32.889 or five thousand dollars each because the technology 00:12:32.889 --> 00:12:35.970 was was so good and they were probably about 00:12:35.970 --> 00:12:38.210 the size of a big cell phone Okay, you know, 00:12:38.210 --> 00:12:40.850 so still pretty small Yeah, and you could I could 00:12:40.850 --> 00:12:42.769 put it in my purse and it but it was real -to 00:12:42.769 --> 00:12:46.309 -real and I'll never forget Dave Hall sang to 00:12:46.309 --> 00:12:48.730 me after we came out of this, did you remember 00:12:48.730 --> 00:12:52.350 to turn it on? I'm like, yes. So not all the 00:12:52.350 --> 00:12:54.210 time though, because all the time it wasn't going 00:12:54.210 --> 00:12:57.269 to be convenient to have it. So sometimes tape 00:12:57.269 --> 00:13:00.250 runs out. That's right. And more importantly, 00:13:00.629 --> 00:13:02.330 as you and I know, sometimes you forget to turn 00:13:02.330 --> 00:13:04.429 it off. Correct. And then you say things you 00:13:04.429 --> 00:13:06.090 don't want on there. You say things, you know, 00:13:06.269 --> 00:13:08.669 you make jokes about supervisors or whatever. 00:13:09.540 --> 00:13:10.740 So I'm not gonna have that happen. Or you go 00:13:10.740 --> 00:13:12.980 to the bathroom and your recorder's still on, 00:13:13.059 --> 00:13:16.000 yeah. So it happens though, right? But yeah, 00:13:16.139 --> 00:13:18.080 so I mean, I'm not sure how much more you want 00:13:18.080 --> 00:13:21.399 me to go into, but we actually did, once we got 00:13:21.399 --> 00:13:25.059 to New York, there was a delay in the transaction 00:13:25.059 --> 00:13:27.259 taking place. And that was because of a big storm, 00:13:27.460 --> 00:13:29.899 right? Yes, supposedly there was some big northeastern 00:13:29.899 --> 00:13:32.799 and then part of the deal fell through. So, but 00:13:32.799 --> 00:13:38.620 we, AJ and I, stayed in Kelly's cottage that 00:13:38.620 --> 00:13:42.679 was somewhere off of Long Island. He lived in 00:13:42.679 --> 00:13:44.559 an area called Breezy Point. He lived in a pretty 00:13:44.559 --> 00:13:46.740 nice area in Long Island, which we had gone to 00:13:46.740 --> 00:13:49.179 his house. Kelly did. Kelly did, I'm sorry. And 00:13:49.179 --> 00:13:53.080 Kelly then put us up in his summer cottage, which 00:13:53.080 --> 00:13:55.100 was kind of a dump. So you had to do another 00:13:55.100 --> 00:13:57.480 overnight with AJ. Oh, I had to do over almost 00:13:57.480 --> 00:13:59.519 a week. Oh my gosh. While we were waiting for 00:13:59.519 --> 00:14:03.139 the transaction to close. Oh, a nightmare. So 00:14:03.139 --> 00:14:05.950 it was a nightmare. So what happened? Well, we 00:14:05.950 --> 00:14:10.529 know what happened. Well, remember, he's he's 00:14:10.529 --> 00:14:13.769 AJ. He's not, you know, one of my colleagues 00:14:13.769 --> 00:14:17.230 professionally. Yeah. So we get in the cottage 00:14:17.230 --> 00:14:21.269 and remember, we have cell phones and pretty 00:14:21.269 --> 00:14:24.590 much Kelly dropped us off and said, OK, we didn't 00:14:24.590 --> 00:14:27.230 have the van either. The van was left in front 00:14:27.230 --> 00:14:30.539 of. his business. With the skin still in it? 00:14:30.539 --> 00:14:33.059 With the skins in it. So like his storage, mobile 00:14:33.059 --> 00:14:34.799 storage for his skin? Yeah, for a couple of days 00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:37.919 and then it moved. But he took us, we went to 00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:39.480 dinner or something and then he dropped us off 00:14:39.480 --> 00:14:41.759 and said, I'll pick you up in the morning. So 00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:44.299 we were in this cottage, AJ and I, and you know, 00:14:44.299 --> 00:14:47.019 it was time to go to bed for the night. Basically, 00:14:47.080 --> 00:14:51.320 there's one bed and I looked at AJ and I said, 00:14:51.580 --> 00:14:53.460 okay, you know, this is the deal. Meanwhile, 00:14:53.480 --> 00:14:55.120 in my mind, I'm thinking, he knows I don't have 00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:59.620 a gun. But anyway, we get in bed and this is 00:14:59.620 --> 00:15:01.620 a little uncomfortable for me, but yeah, we get 00:15:01.620 --> 00:15:05.759 in bed and next thing I know, AJ's arm is near 00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:08.320 me. He's trying to touch me and I'm cringing. 00:15:08.980 --> 00:15:11.259 So I basically put an end to it as best I could. 00:15:11.299 --> 00:15:13.460 And I said, this is not gonna happen. We're gonna 00:15:13.460 --> 00:15:15.620 blow the whole case. We just cannot do this. 00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:19.690 And you know, believe it or not, I don't know. 00:15:20.730 --> 00:15:23.330 I don't think I scared him because I don't think 00:15:23.330 --> 00:15:26.389 I did. I think maybe he because I say he kind 00:15:26.389 --> 00:15:28.289 of had a kind of a little different personality 00:15:28.289 --> 00:15:30.649 in some ways. I'm thinking maybe he thought about 00:15:30.649 --> 00:15:32.629 what was going to happen in the long run and 00:15:32.629 --> 00:15:35.409 he backed off. At that time, we didn't know we 00:15:35.409 --> 00:15:37.789 were going to be there as long as we were. So 00:15:37.789 --> 00:15:39.649 maybe he just thought, oh, well, one night, big 00:15:39.649 --> 00:15:43.779 deal. But he did back off. I didn't sleep. He 00:15:43.779 --> 00:15:46.100 went outside. I remember this is so weird. He 00:15:46.100 --> 00:15:48.419 wore these black t -shirts. Yeah. He went outside. 00:15:48.460 --> 00:15:50.340 There was some kind of spick it or outside thing. 00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:55.779 He washed his t -shirt. What came back in the 00:15:55.779 --> 00:15:58.639 room and put the t -shirt over the lampshade 00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:01.620 in the corner to drop. Like, is this what he 00:16:01.620 --> 00:16:04.840 does in the marsh? But I remember that. It's 00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:06.500 funny how certain things visually had nothing 00:16:06.500 --> 00:16:08.500 to do with the case. Didn't matter. But that 00:16:08.500 --> 00:16:11.120 was a personality thing. He did. And he never 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:15.169 hit you again. No. That's good. No, that is good. 00:16:15.289 --> 00:16:18.230 And I think you might be underestimating your 00:16:18.230 --> 00:16:20.809 ability to intimidate. I've seen you intimidate 00:16:20.809 --> 00:16:24.049 very, very big, big people, big guys, right? 00:16:24.149 --> 00:16:26.870 I've seen it with my own eyes. So you do have 00:16:26.870 --> 00:16:29.629 the ability to turn on that law enforcement voice, 00:16:29.750 --> 00:16:33.549 that law enforcement stare. And even with your 00:16:33.549 --> 00:16:35.610 small frame, I've seen you back people down pretty 00:16:35.610 --> 00:16:39.149 effectively. Well, thank you. Thank you for reminding 00:16:39.149 --> 00:16:41.070 me. That's true. I'd be your partner any day. 00:16:41.070 --> 00:16:44.409 Yeah. But the other thing is, and this is what's 00:16:44.409 --> 00:16:47.070 interesting about being a special agent and being 00:16:47.070 --> 00:16:49.970 dedicated to the mission. I really wanted this 00:16:49.970 --> 00:16:52.789 case to be successful. I had something to prove 00:16:52.789 --> 00:16:55.210 as a new agent. I also had something to prove 00:16:55.210 --> 00:16:57.269 for them hiring women. I mean, I wasn't really 00:16:57.269 --> 00:16:58.929 waving that flag right then. I don't think I 00:16:58.929 --> 00:17:01.710 was that forward of a thinker. But I knew that 00:17:01.710 --> 00:17:04.130 this was an opportunity to really, really catch 00:17:04.130 --> 00:17:06.430 people doing something very wrong to natural 00:17:06.430 --> 00:17:09.269 resources and actually stop this enterprise. 00:17:09.740 --> 00:17:11.960 But we couldn't mess it up with something stupid 00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:14.559 like an informant putting the move on me. Exactly. 00:17:15.019 --> 00:17:17.500 And blowing the whole thing. So I really wanted 00:17:17.500 --> 00:17:20.440 him to not think he could do this again so that 00:17:20.440 --> 00:17:22.720 we could move forward with the case. Right. And 00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:24.440 we probably had a discussion about that. I don't 00:17:24.440 --> 00:17:26.619 really remember that part. I do remember, you 00:17:26.619 --> 00:17:28.799 know, having to stop him from, you know, being 00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:33.079 a guy, basically. So so, yeah, we moved on. And 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:36.920 the next few days I hung around the. Discount 00:17:36.920 --> 00:17:41.269 clothing shop. With Kelly's wife. Yeah, there's 00:17:41.269 --> 00:17:43.930 a family operation Kelly's wife was named Barbara. 00:17:44.130 --> 00:17:46.730 She was there She would ask me questions all 00:17:46.730 --> 00:17:49.710 the time about how I knew AJ And you know, we 00:17:49.710 --> 00:17:51.450 had a really we had a good cover. It was short 00:17:51.450 --> 00:17:54.089 and sweet I worked as a server back then they 00:17:54.089 --> 00:17:56.910 were kind of waitress. I got a job in the bayou 00:17:56.910 --> 00:17:59.829 I mean in the French Quarter and AJ has been 00:17:59.829 --> 00:18:02.950 a bouncer Which fit and he had been actually 00:18:02.950 --> 00:18:04.750 he had done stuff like that So that worked and 00:18:04.750 --> 00:18:06.289 I had actually been a waitress, you know through 00:18:06.289 --> 00:18:08.210 my years in college So that kind of worked out 00:18:08.210 --> 00:18:10.289 and we had a name of a place where we met and 00:18:10.289 --> 00:18:13.509 kind of left it at that The best cover stories 00:18:13.509 --> 00:18:15.430 are always the ones that are closest to the truth 00:18:15.430 --> 00:18:18.809 exactly So it sounds like she was testing you 00:18:18.809 --> 00:18:21.509 a little bit. She was definitely right. It wasn't 00:18:21.509 --> 00:18:24.329 just curiosity She was probing your cover. Yeah, 00:18:24.410 --> 00:18:27.450 and you know what else? Interestingly, I was 00:18:27.450 --> 00:18:32.359 thinking about she asked me about the van. Really? 00:18:32.920 --> 00:18:36.019 Yes, because the van was mine. Ah. That was part 00:18:36.019 --> 00:18:40.160 of the cover too. So, how much did I pay for 00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:43.119 the van? Wow. Stupid question. Uh -huh. The only 00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:45.259 question, the only reason you'd ask that is to, 00:18:45.259 --> 00:18:47.880 you know, test you. Uh -huh. And, you know, it's 00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:49.380 funny because that's something we actually talked 00:18:49.380 --> 00:18:51.359 about beforehand as part of our cover. Good. 00:18:51.559 --> 00:18:53.140 Because the Fish and Wildlife had it registered 00:18:53.140 --> 00:18:56.119 in cold plates. It was under my name in Pittsburgh, 00:18:56.240 --> 00:18:59.480 Pennsylvania, I think. So basically, I told her 00:18:59.480 --> 00:19:01.440 a number, I don't remember, like $900 or something 00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:04.220 that we had agreed upon. And later on, I found 00:19:04.220 --> 00:19:06.240 out, not during the week that we were there, 00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:10.099 that Kelly asked AJ the same thing about the 00:19:10.099 --> 00:19:13.279 van. No kidding. Yeah. So they were testing us. 00:19:13.279 --> 00:19:16.160 Totally. Yeah. Testing our cover. And he remembered, 00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:18.259 you know, and that was fine. It's hers, and yeah, 00:19:18.259 --> 00:19:20.819 she let me use it. Speaking of the van, they 00:19:20.819 --> 00:19:23.640 did move it after the second day. And this is 00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:27.400 really sleazy. Greenblatt, remember I said, was 00:19:28.029 --> 00:19:31.690 Jack Kelly's partner. Right. Greenblatt took 00:19:31.690 --> 00:19:36.990 the van to, are you ready? Yeah. Kelly's mother's 00:19:36.990 --> 00:19:40.950 house in Brooklyn. Whoa. Drove it there. And 00:19:40.950 --> 00:19:43.869 the surveillance team saw him do all this. Unloaded 00:19:43.869 --> 00:19:46.309 the skins, or they had repackaged them in boxes. 00:19:46.329 --> 00:19:50.690 Okay. Or containers. That, wooden boxes that 00:19:50.690 --> 00:19:53.059 were labeled machine parts. Because they were 00:19:53.059 --> 00:19:54.660 getting ready to put him on a ship to go somewhere. 00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:58.940 Yes, so he he unloaded them I think there were 00:19:58.940 --> 00:20:02.759 four or five of these Wooden containers and put 00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:05.140 them in the backyard of his mother's house. Nice 00:20:05.140 --> 00:20:07.240 nice guy, right? Yeah, right. So that's where 00:20:07.240 --> 00:20:11.500 they were stored Take let mom go down They were 00:20:11.500 --> 00:20:14.420 stored until they actually moved them to the 00:20:14.420 --> 00:20:16.720 docks later on. There's no honor among thieves, 00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:20.500 right? Yeah, that's true. Yeah, so that's incredible, 00:20:20.740 --> 00:20:25.680 you know thinking about Kelly's wife and Kelly 00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:29.700 testing your cover, you know, a lot, I don't 00:20:29.700 --> 00:20:31.319 know how it was with you, but every undercover 00:20:31.319 --> 00:20:34.400 case I ever did, everybody always questioned 00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:37.079 me, right? They always, at some point, they asked 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:39.359 me if I was a cop or a game warden or something, 00:20:40.039 --> 00:20:43.160 or they did similar tactics like what you're 00:20:43.160 --> 00:20:46.460 describing. And it's not. necessarily because 00:20:46.460 --> 00:20:49.099 they think, I don't think anyway. I'd be interested 00:20:49.099 --> 00:20:51.059 to see what you think about this. I don't think 00:20:51.059 --> 00:20:54.119 it's because they think you're a cop. They just 00:20:54.119 --> 00:20:56.039 think everybody's a cop because they're bad guys, 00:20:56.079 --> 00:20:58.859 right? So they're always, and if you give them 00:20:58.859 --> 00:21:02.000 just something to reassure them, they'll be fine. 00:21:02.579 --> 00:21:05.240 Now, I agree with you. I think in all the years 00:21:05.240 --> 00:21:08.259 I did undercover cases, there was always a question 00:21:08.259 --> 00:21:12.779 or a test. And I think as a new agent, It doesn't 00:21:12.779 --> 00:21:15.279 mean you're burned. No, I think you tend to might 00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:18.460 think you are as a new agent. But then you learn, 00:21:18.500 --> 00:21:20.099 oh no, this is just part of the whole deal. It 00:21:20.099 --> 00:21:22.079 happens all the time. And you learn what works 00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:26.099 for you to kind of repel that. I never thought 00:21:26.099 --> 00:21:28.359 that her asking me how much the van was, was 00:21:28.359 --> 00:21:30.920 any sort of... collaboration between her and 00:21:30.920 --> 00:21:32.700 Kelly to kind of check out who we were but it 00:21:32.700 --> 00:21:34.619 was but it was yeah I found that I thought of 00:21:34.619 --> 00:21:36.079 that later there were probably other things that 00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:38.500 we didn't think yeah for sure there's other for 00:21:38.500 --> 00:21:40.779 sure there's other stuff that happened that didn't 00:21:40.779 --> 00:21:42.799 dawn on you that they were so the thing that 00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:47.519 was great about the case was after the deal finally 00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:51.859 closed where Kelly made the actual transfer and 00:21:51.859 --> 00:21:55.730 they actually were able to sell the Alligators 00:21:55.730 --> 00:21:58.250 to the to the clappish company which was Meg 00:21:58.250 --> 00:22:00.490 imports a lot of people involved here But they 00:22:00.490 --> 00:22:03.009 were the next level so you have AJ and then you 00:22:03.009 --> 00:22:05.309 have Kellyanne Greenblatt And then you have Jack 00:22:05.309 --> 00:22:08.049 clappish and his company Meg import which were 00:22:08.049 --> 00:22:11.609 shipping the skins overseas So when that finally 00:22:11.609 --> 00:22:14.869 came to fruition it was over a week. I left before 00:22:14.869 --> 00:22:19.769 they actually transferred the skins and there 00:22:19.769 --> 00:22:22.349 was some communication I'd go to a payphone and 00:22:22.349 --> 00:22:24.250 call the sack office because there was no phone. 00:22:24.490 --> 00:22:26.490 Yeah well I was gonna get to that too because 00:22:26.490 --> 00:22:29.289 yeah with no cell phone no when you're updating 00:22:29.289 --> 00:22:31.150 your cover team you can't walk up to them on 00:22:31.150 --> 00:22:33.769 the street you're like running to the closest 00:22:33.769 --> 00:22:37.029 payphone right? There was a little pizza place 00:22:37.029 --> 00:22:38.970 around the corner from the discount clothing 00:22:38.970 --> 00:22:42.569 shop. And if I was hanging around in the discount 00:22:42.569 --> 00:22:45.650 clothing shop while AJ was out doing something 00:22:45.650 --> 00:22:47.630 with Kelly, I would go around the corner and 00:22:47.630 --> 00:22:49.490 say, I'm gonna go get a slice of pizza or a Coke 00:22:49.490 --> 00:22:53.900 or whatever. And I'd make a call to the... Sac 00:22:53.900 --> 00:22:56.440 office there in New York and I tell them what 00:22:56.440 --> 00:22:58.279 was going on and you know, generally speaking 00:22:58.279 --> 00:23:00.220 they say oh, yeah We got you and we got the surveillance 00:23:00.220 --> 00:23:03.640 team, you know We're there and this is what's 00:23:03.640 --> 00:23:07.339 happening So one time though, I called and they 00:23:07.339 --> 00:23:10.680 I said hi Jack was Jack Downs. He was the agent 00:23:10.680 --> 00:23:12.839 in charge I said well, it looks like the skins 00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:14.500 are gonna be moved or whatever. Whatever was 00:23:14.500 --> 00:23:16.759 coming up gave your update Yeah, I tried to give 00:23:16.759 --> 00:23:19.000 him as much as I could because I couldn't really 00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:20.640 record everything. Yeah, you're not recording 00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:26.660 everything and One day when I called, I almost 00:23:26.660 --> 00:23:28.980 lost my breath, because he basically said, Marie, 00:23:29.059 --> 00:23:32.740 where are you? I'm like the same place I always 00:23:32.740 --> 00:23:35.980 am. The covered team lost you? Yeah, because 00:23:35.980 --> 00:23:39.299 they had switched the team, and they lost me, 00:23:39.339 --> 00:23:42.240 and they weren't sure. But they kind of got back 00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:43.920 in gear. But that was kind of scary, thinking 00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:46.599 that the surveillance team. was not around. Yep. 00:23:46.839 --> 00:23:48.619 I've been in those situations too, where they 00:23:48.619 --> 00:23:50.980 either lose you or they're, they're close, but 00:23:50.980 --> 00:23:53.460 they're not that close to you. Right. And if 00:23:53.460 --> 00:23:54.859 something happened, you're on your own for a 00:23:54.859 --> 00:23:57.079 few probably minutes before they get to you, 00:23:57.079 --> 00:23:59.660 which could mean a lot. That could be, it could 00:23:59.660 --> 00:24:02.220 be very deadly. It could be serious. So this 00:24:02.220 --> 00:24:05.240 was, you know, a bustling city, but still it 00:24:05.240 --> 00:24:09.640 was a little discomforting. So, so, but I did 00:24:09.640 --> 00:24:13.380 that. And then one day when I called, They told 00:24:13.380 --> 00:24:16.500 me to make up a story Because it looked like 00:24:16.500 --> 00:24:18.980 the skins are gonna be moving it now how they 00:24:18.980 --> 00:24:21.119 knew that or that I don't know something else 00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:25.819 going on. Yes So I did okay, you know, I basically 00:24:25.819 --> 00:24:28.799 said oh, you know, I gotta go back to Pittsburgh 00:24:28.799 --> 00:24:33.440 family issue or whatever and AJ's gonna stick 00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:35.559 around here and fly back after the deal is done 00:24:35.559 --> 00:24:37.799 and then I said wink wink. I'll see you in New 00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:43.980 Orleans Kiss kiss So I left, and then I met with 00:24:43.980 --> 00:24:46.680 the agents and the prosecutor. But up until that 00:24:46.680 --> 00:24:51.480 time, I had gotten enough information to prove 00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:55.720 the case as far as what Kelly was doing and the 00:24:55.720 --> 00:24:58.900 information about Clapish. Nice. The Clapish 00:24:58.900 --> 00:25:04.259 case came to a close more so from the surveillance 00:25:04.259 --> 00:25:08.200 once they saw the actual containers moved to 00:25:08.200 --> 00:25:10.700 the docks. Right. And that's when they were they 00:25:10.700 --> 00:25:12.539 moved in and arrested everybody. So what happened 00:25:12.539 --> 00:25:15.279 to these guys? Well, I have to look at my notes. 00:25:16.740 --> 00:25:21.599 So this case, and the reason the reason I think 00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:23.880 this is this is kind of a fun thing to talk about 00:25:23.880 --> 00:25:26.980 is up until this time, you know, most of the 00:25:26.980 --> 00:25:28.880 cases fish and wildlife investigated and enforced 00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:30.619 were pretty much misdemeanors. They weren't doing 00:25:30.619 --> 00:25:34.259 a lot of the international smuggling type cases. 00:25:34.579 --> 00:25:37.430 And this was Almost a case of first impression 00:25:37.430 --> 00:25:41.190 and basically what happened was Well, like I 00:25:41.190 --> 00:25:43.349 said before there were more than 2 ,500 hides 00:25:43.349 --> 00:25:46.289 over the couple years of the investigation I 00:25:46.289 --> 00:25:48.710 wasn't on the last part of it which basically 00:25:48.710 --> 00:25:50.509 clinched it. Yeah, you're cleaning up the whole 00:25:50.509 --> 00:25:53.069 yes the whole over chain Correct, there was a 00:25:53.069 --> 00:25:54.829 two year period where there was intelligence 00:25:54.829 --> 00:25:57.809 investigations, but this sewed it all up, so 00:25:57.809 --> 00:26:00.890 to speak. So basically what happened was, and 00:26:00.890 --> 00:26:03.890 the value of these skins back then was over a 00:26:03.890 --> 00:26:06.309 million dollars street value, which I did a little 00:26:06.309 --> 00:26:08.650 math with. Yeah, what's that worth now? Today 00:26:08.650 --> 00:26:10.970 it'd be like five, like five million dollars 00:26:10.970 --> 00:26:14.329 worth of alligator hides. So the men were basically, 00:26:15.349 --> 00:26:18.839 they were pretty much, well Kelly, The person 00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:22.559 that I investigated with A .J. Kelly was actually 00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:25.400 pled guilty to conspiracy to violate the Endangered 00:26:25.400 --> 00:26:28.380 Species Act. Okay, felony. Yes, felony. The Endangered 00:26:28.380 --> 00:26:30.480 Species Act is not, but the conspiracy is. Conspiracy 00:26:30.480 --> 00:26:33.579 is, right. And he got, I can't remember exactly 00:26:33.579 --> 00:26:35.619 what he received. I don't know if I gave you 00:26:35.619 --> 00:26:37.769 that. He go to jail? I'm sorry? Did he go to 00:26:37.769 --> 00:26:39.809 jail? Yeah, he did go to jail and he was fined. 00:26:40.049 --> 00:26:42.069 Yeah. As was Greenblatt. Greenblatt did not go 00:26:42.069 --> 00:26:45.450 to jail. He was on probation and was fined a 00:26:45.450 --> 00:26:49.710 lot. Okay. And the other importer, I mean the 00:26:49.710 --> 00:26:53.589 exporter, Meg Imports and Clapish, they basically 00:26:53.589 --> 00:26:56.190 were pled guilty to conspiracy to violate the 00:26:56.190 --> 00:26:58.490 Lacey Act. Which is a felony. Another law. Another 00:26:58.490 --> 00:27:00.809 felony. That the Fish and Wildlife enforced and 00:27:00.809 --> 00:27:02.890 they went to jail as well. Yeah. And the company 00:27:02.890 --> 00:27:05.799 was fined. I think like $90 ,000, the company. 00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:08.660 Wow, okay. So yeah, so I think it brought down 00:27:08.660 --> 00:27:11.839 their operation finally, and... Do you remember 00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:14.880 any evidence they started up again? No. You killed 00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:18.859 it. No, it killed it. Yeah, that's good. And 00:27:18.859 --> 00:27:21.859 I think not too long after that, I don't know 00:27:21.859 --> 00:27:24.359 this, I'd have to check with the biologist, the 00:27:24.359 --> 00:27:26.710 species started to come back. Yeah. Because now 00:27:26.710 --> 00:27:28.630 if anybody's in Florida on a golf course, they're 00:27:28.630 --> 00:27:30.930 going to see an alligator. All those people that 00:27:30.930 --> 00:27:33.009 lose their little dogs to alligators can curse 00:27:33.009 --> 00:27:34.789 you for that one. They're not happy about that. 00:27:35.230 --> 00:27:37.869 So and the law has made provisions for people 00:27:37.869 --> 00:27:40.509 to raise them in captivity. And so the skins 00:27:40.509 --> 00:27:42.670 are still available, which is now they're legal. 00:27:42.670 --> 00:27:47.430 Yeah. Well, it gave the species chance to recover. 00:27:47.630 --> 00:27:49.809 And then they can be used sustainably, right? 00:27:49.809 --> 00:27:53.069 Yeah. And there's an interesting footnote to 00:27:53.069 --> 00:27:56.289 this about AJ. and this past that he made at 00:27:56.289 --> 00:27:59.309 you. And you told me this story when we were 00:27:59.309 --> 00:28:02.650 talking about, you know, prepping for this episode. 00:28:03.170 --> 00:28:07.289 What happened to AJ a few years later? Yeah. 00:28:07.990 --> 00:28:13.789 So AJ was one of those informants that the service 00:28:13.789 --> 00:28:17.730 wanted to use on other operations because he 00:28:17.730 --> 00:28:21.349 proved himself to be pretty valid. A good informant. 00:28:21.549 --> 00:28:24.740 We know that he wouldn't be Great testifying 00:28:24.740 --> 00:28:26.680 in court, of course, which is why you have an 00:28:26.680 --> 00:28:28.380 agent with exactly which maybe I should have 00:28:28.380 --> 00:28:30.500 said earlier Yeah, the fact that I was there 00:28:30.500 --> 00:28:32.960 he might have been on the ground a lot But the 00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:35.140 credibility of what happened and the evidence 00:28:35.140 --> 00:28:38.220 and what I saw and what I could testify to We're 00:28:38.220 --> 00:28:41.319 really kind of the clinchpin to basically Prosecute 00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:43.579 100 % successful process. You're the professional 00:28:43.579 --> 00:28:46.500 correct. Yeah He's the kind of the tool to you 00:28:46.500 --> 00:28:49.839 exactly. So because he ended up doing a good 00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:53.420 job on this particular case He was sought out 00:28:53.420 --> 00:28:55.900 several years later. There was an investigation 00:28:55.900 --> 00:28:58.940 going on in region one where I eventually was 00:28:58.940 --> 00:29:01.680 assigned to in California. And it involved Northern 00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:05.700 California and the Klamath River and the actually 00:29:05.700 --> 00:29:11.009 salmon that were being poached by... Not necessarily 00:29:11.009 --> 00:29:13.349 Native Americans, but actually people posing 00:29:13.349 --> 00:29:15.549 as Native American, white man trying to take 00:29:15.549 --> 00:29:18.150 advantage of the opportunity to salmon fish. 00:29:18.910 --> 00:29:20.670 Because indigenous people do have rights and 00:29:20.670 --> 00:29:23.730 white man does not. So there was an investigation 00:29:23.730 --> 00:29:26.069 going on and basically the salmon were showing 00:29:26.069 --> 00:29:29.960 up in stores in... Commercialization. Exactly, 00:29:30.539 --> 00:29:33.440 in San Francisco, all over the nation, and there 00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:35.180 were sometimes marks on them that showed they 00:29:35.180 --> 00:29:38.119 were caught in nets. So there was kind of a suspicion 00:29:38.119 --> 00:29:40.220 that we need to get more involved, not in just 00:29:40.220 --> 00:29:41.940 what's being happened on the river, but in the 00:29:41.940 --> 00:29:44.059 actual commercialization of the salmon once they're 00:29:44.059 --> 00:29:47.240 taken from the river. So gee, this acts worth 00:29:47.240 --> 00:29:50.059 their meaning again, and they decided, oh. We've 00:29:50.059 --> 00:29:52.579 got this guy AJ. He's a chameleon. He can be 00:29:52.579 --> 00:29:55.599 anywhere. He can fit in. So they hired him to 00:29:55.599 --> 00:29:58.960 work the salmon fisheries case. And he did. He 00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:01.559 was out on the river. He was working. And he 00:30:01.559 --> 00:30:04.680 actually did a pretty good job. And then lo and 00:30:04.680 --> 00:30:07.980 behold, I hear that he was arrested for rape 00:30:07.980 --> 00:30:10.960 while he was working for the Fish and Wildlife 00:30:10.960 --> 00:30:12.460 Service. That must have sent a shiver down your 00:30:12.460 --> 00:30:16.279 spine, huh? Well, yes. And it was very... Well 00:30:16.279 --> 00:30:18.200 besides it did send a shiver down my son like 00:30:18.200 --> 00:30:21.819 whoa, but also it was kind of like Why did why 00:30:21.819 --> 00:30:23.539 do you have to do this? I mean, you know, he 00:30:23.539 --> 00:30:25.920 was he was kind of you know He's not a good guy 00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:27.599 by a long shot But he was somebody that knew 00:30:27.599 --> 00:30:29.460 how to tow the line and work with Fish and Wildlife 00:30:29.460 --> 00:30:32.339 right and then he kind of went off and yeah I 00:30:32.339 --> 00:30:34.500 don't know if he was ever convicted or if there 00:30:34.500 --> 00:30:36.859 was some sort of plea agreement whatever happened 00:30:36.859 --> 00:30:38.740 But I know that the Fish and Wildlife never used 00:30:38.740 --> 00:30:41.380 him again. Yeah after that Well, I didn't mind 00:30:41.380 --> 00:30:44.670 working with informants who were you know? law 00:30:44.670 --> 00:30:46.509 -abiding people who wanted, who had information. 00:30:46.710 --> 00:30:48.849 I hated working with informants who were dirtbags 00:30:48.849 --> 00:30:54.410 because of stuff like this. They're not thinking 00:30:54.410 --> 00:30:57.349 the way you and I think or the way law -abiding 00:30:57.349 --> 00:31:02.349 citizens think, and yeah. No, no, and that's 00:31:02.349 --> 00:31:05.529 the trade -off. It is. With informant type A 00:31:05.529 --> 00:31:09.410 or informant type B, right? And usually informant 00:31:09.410 --> 00:31:13.819 type A, the AJ type, are gonna get into the nitty 00:31:13.819 --> 00:31:15.140 -gritty of the dirty part, but you have to be 00:31:15.140 --> 00:31:16.980 able to tolerate that. Yeah. And that's hard. 00:31:17.119 --> 00:31:19.119 I mean, that's pretty much what agents with DEA 00:31:19.119 --> 00:31:20.859 have to do all the time. Oh, yeah. You know, 00:31:20.920 --> 00:31:22.900 and different... Local police, LAPD. Yes, on 00:31:22.900 --> 00:31:25.960 your focus. But, you know, sometimes with Fish 00:31:25.960 --> 00:31:28.380 and Wildlife, we get somebody that's an informant, 00:31:28.380 --> 00:31:30.519 and he's just mad because of a competitor. You 00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:32.660 know, he may not really be a... Somebody that's 00:31:32.660 --> 00:31:35.099 a career criminal in the sense of being a nasty 00:31:35.099 --> 00:31:37.680 dirty person kind of yeah make sense I had some 00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:39.539 good ones over the years. They were really good. 00:31:39.559 --> 00:31:42.720 Yeah, in fact you you connected me with two of 00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:46.819 the best I ever had a for caviar but I Had something 00:31:46.819 --> 00:31:50.220 I couldn't stand and I very quickly stopped working. 00:31:50.319 --> 00:31:53.480 You know what I mean? very quickly transitioned 00:31:53.480 --> 00:31:58.380 into an undercover, you know So Marie on behalf 00:31:58.380 --> 00:32:00.759 of the alligators. Thank you For the work that 00:32:00.759 --> 00:32:02.900 you did, it's fascinating. There's so much more 00:32:02.900 --> 00:32:07.740 to talk about. I want to have you back for sure 00:32:07.740 --> 00:32:10.079 to tell other stories and talk about other things. 00:32:10.920 --> 00:32:13.160 One thing that's funny, when you first talked 00:32:13.160 --> 00:32:15.319 about when I came to the office, and this is 00:32:15.319 --> 00:32:19.539 again another compliment to you. You said that 00:32:19.539 --> 00:32:21.980 I had come and I was eager to do undercover work. 00:32:22.859 --> 00:32:25.740 Your memory of that is not correct. When I came 00:32:25.740 --> 00:32:28.759 out of the academy, I had decided I don't want 00:32:28.759 --> 00:32:32.079 to do undercover work. I wanted to just do overt 00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:35.660 cases. I wanted to flip, you know, flip the creds, 00:32:35.660 --> 00:32:38.200 go out, do the interviews, do the investigations, 00:32:38.319 --> 00:32:40.859 do the subpoenas and make the cases. Screw this 00:32:40.859 --> 00:32:42.960 undercover work. Because when I was in the academy, 00:32:43.500 --> 00:32:46.500 I learned it's a lot of work. I mean, it's a 00:32:46.500 --> 00:32:49.539 lot of work. You're working weird hours and then 00:32:49.539 --> 00:32:51.500 afterwards you have to write all these extra 00:32:51.500 --> 00:32:54.700 reports, summarize audio. If you're running an 00:32:54.700 --> 00:32:56.460 undercover business, you have to take care of 00:32:56.460 --> 00:32:59.960 books. I didn't want to do it. But when I started 00:32:59.960 --> 00:33:01.960 to work with you and you were talking about it 00:33:01.960 --> 00:33:03.779 and you were encouraging me to do it and you 00:33:03.779 --> 00:33:06.859 were showing me how to do it, I realized it's 00:33:06.859 --> 00:33:09.819 an incredibly valuable tool and I had to do it. 00:33:09.819 --> 00:33:13.900 And then I ended up loving it. So it's funny, 00:33:14.559 --> 00:33:17.420 I did end up liking it but that was only because 00:33:17.420 --> 00:33:19.980 I think I learned how to do it correctly, which 00:33:19.980 --> 00:33:23.220 thank you for that. Well, you're welcome. It's 00:33:23.220 --> 00:33:27.500 kind of a, I don't know. It's a nice combination. 00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:29.259 I think that was one of the nice things about 00:33:29.259 --> 00:33:31.039 working for Fish and Wildlife as well, once I 00:33:31.039 --> 00:33:34.180 was no longer in SOU when I moved to California, 00:33:34.740 --> 00:33:37.460 is you still have the luxury of working your 00:33:37.460 --> 00:33:39.160 own undercover cases if you want. Yeah, if you 00:33:39.160 --> 00:33:42.160 want to. You don't always have to be the, you 00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:44.559 know, coat and tie person, you know, going to 00:33:44.559 --> 00:33:48.400 do interviews. And it's a nice mix. For me... 00:33:48.220 --> 00:33:50.960 Like I said, I enjoyed the undercover work, but 00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:52.920 you're right, I didn't really get into the part 00:33:52.920 --> 00:33:54.839 of when you do set up a business and you have 00:33:54.839 --> 00:33:57.539 to have a cover and you have to have, so you 00:33:57.539 --> 00:34:01.220 have to have all your ducks in a row, so to speak, 00:34:01.700 --> 00:34:04.680 especially today because technology, it's so 00:34:04.680 --> 00:34:06.900 easy for you to get caught, get burnt, for your 00:34:06.900 --> 00:34:09.760 cover to get burnt as well. And you know, like 00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:12.260 we're saying, if you spend a day with the bad 00:34:12.260 --> 00:34:15.869 guys, The first four hours after you get home 00:34:15.869 --> 00:34:18.170 you're writing a summary of that contact because 00:34:18.170 --> 00:34:19.929 you got to do it while your memory's fresh and 00:34:19.929 --> 00:34:22.329 then you got to transcribe your audio tapes and 00:34:22.329 --> 00:34:25.429 well, it's just a nightmare. Yes, and you have 00:34:25.429 --> 00:34:29.670 to kind of like cleanse yourself with them all 00:34:29.670 --> 00:34:32.900 day exactly. So it's it's a whole It's a whole 00:34:32.900 --> 00:34:34.739 different type of work. Oh my gosh. We can do 00:34:34.739 --> 00:34:37.099 a whole episode on that of how do you decompress 00:34:37.099 --> 00:34:39.579 after spending all day with people that are not 00:34:39.579 --> 00:34:41.659 your people. Right. Right. Because you go back 00:34:41.659 --> 00:34:45.420 home and your spouse, your siblings, your brother, 00:34:45.539 --> 00:34:48.860 sister, your neighbor, they expect you to go 00:34:48.860 --> 00:34:51.059 back to being Marie Palladini. But you just spent 00:34:51.059 --> 00:34:55.320 all day being a dirtbag. Yeah. Right. We're hanging 00:34:55.320 --> 00:34:57.360 out with them. So you kind of need that time 00:34:57.360 --> 00:34:59.519 to decompress. But maybe we'll do a whole episode 00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:01.260 on that. That would be a good one. All right. 00:35:01.389 --> 00:35:03.809 Thank you so much for joining us. Look forward 00:35:03.809 --> 00:35:07.230 to seeing you guys next week. Thanks. Nature's 00:35:07.230 --> 00:35:09.269 Secret Service is written and produced by me, 00:35:09.389 --> 00:35:12.150 Ed Newcomer, and is co -produced by the DHTV 00:35:12.150 --> 00:35:15.030 team here at California State University Dominguez 00:35:15.030 --> 00:35:17.349 Hills. Follow us on social media and connect 00:35:17.349 --> 00:35:20.050 with us online at naturessecretservice .com.