WEBVTT 00:00:23.050 --> 00:00:26.149 Okay people listen up here we go. My name is 00:00:26.149 --> 00:00:29.329 Ed Newcomer I'm the host of Nature's Secret Service 00:00:29.329 --> 00:00:31.829 the podcast that puts you in the room with the 00:00:31.829 --> 00:00:34.469 men and women of wildlife law enforcement This 00:00:34.469 --> 00:00:38.409 is episode 1 of season 1 our very first episode 00:00:38.409 --> 00:00:42.850 and we have a fantastic guest today in fact The 00:00:42.850 --> 00:00:44.509 first time I thought about doing this podcast 00:00:44.509 --> 00:00:46.429 I knew immediately who my first guest was going 00:00:46.429 --> 00:00:50.409 to be and I'm very happy to welcome Marie Palladini 00:00:51.170 --> 00:00:54.429 Marie is a professor at California State University 00:00:54.429 --> 00:00:56.810 at Dominguez Hills in Carson, California, where 00:00:56.810 --> 00:01:01.909 we're coming to you from today. But for 29 years, 00:01:01.909 --> 00:01:03.969 she was a special agent with the US Fish and 00:01:03.969 --> 00:01:06.370 Wildlife Service. So welcome, Marie. Thank you 00:01:06.370 --> 00:01:09.269 for being on our very first episode. Hi, Ed. 00:01:09.269 --> 00:01:11.890 It's great to be here. Thank you for having me. 00:01:12.209 --> 00:01:14.930 Yes, I am very excited. And I think we should 00:01:14.930 --> 00:01:18.540 actually say right off the bat, how we know each 00:01:18.540 --> 00:01:20.180 other, because I think it's going to be really 00:01:20.180 --> 00:01:23.280 obvious to listeners pretty quickly that we're 00:01:23.280 --> 00:01:26.879 friends. Yes, I think it will. So how do we know 00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:29.500 each other? OK, I can start with that very easily. 00:01:30.519 --> 00:01:33.519 So I was the senior resident agent in the US 00:01:33.519 --> 00:01:36.200 Fish and Wildlife Service office in Torrance, 00:01:36.400 --> 00:01:38.459 California for a few years before I retired. 00:01:38.980 --> 00:01:41.000 And prior to that, I was the training officer. 00:01:41.400 --> 00:01:44.760 And I was fortunate enough to train new agents, 00:01:44.939 --> 00:01:48.019 which in an indirect way, I think, prepared me 00:01:48.019 --> 00:01:51.640 for my second career as a professor. I really 00:01:51.640 --> 00:01:54.700 enjoyed meeting the new agents and teaching them 00:01:54.700 --> 00:01:56.620 the law and the ropes and some investigative 00:01:56.620 --> 00:02:00.319 tricks. So when Ed Newcomer came to our office 00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:05.939 in Torrance over 20 years ago, he was a... very 00:02:05.939 --> 00:02:08.099 eager new agent, and I was very happy to have 00:02:08.099 --> 00:02:10.439 him and train him. And I use the word training 00:02:10.439 --> 00:02:12.419 very loosely because he didn't need a lot of 00:02:12.419 --> 00:02:16.960 training. Ed had a background in the administration 00:02:16.960 --> 00:02:20.719 of justice. He had been a judge, an administrative 00:02:20.719 --> 00:02:23.650 judge, and he had also... been to law school, 00:02:23.650 --> 00:02:26.669 obviously. So we had a common connection about 00:02:26.669 --> 00:02:30.210 the law and how to conduct investigations and 00:02:30.210 --> 00:02:31.770 which we're going to talk about today. He was 00:02:31.770 --> 00:02:34.349 very, very eager to work on undercover cases, 00:02:34.509 --> 00:02:37.370 which I had had an extensive background in. So 00:02:37.370 --> 00:02:41.090 he I took him under my wing and and we went from 00:02:41.090 --> 00:02:43.289 there. So that's how we met. And like I said, 00:02:43.289 --> 00:02:45.229 it was over 20 years ago and we've maintained 00:02:45.229 --> 00:02:47.990 a professional and personal friendship through 00:02:47.990 --> 00:02:52.460 those years. Definitely. And so you were my training 00:02:52.460 --> 00:02:55.099 officer, but then you also became my boss. That's 00:02:55.099 --> 00:02:57.419 right. And when you say you were the senior resident 00:02:57.419 --> 00:02:59.960 agent for Southern California, I think we called 00:02:59.960 --> 00:03:04.080 them RACs then, resident agent in charge, you 00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:06.719 actually were in charge of all of Southern California. 00:03:06.939 --> 00:03:10.819 So you oversaw the LA office and our San Diego 00:03:10.819 --> 00:03:14.340 office as well, right? Correct. All of Los Angeles, 00:03:14.939 --> 00:03:17.460 Southern California, the border between Mexico 00:03:17.460 --> 00:03:21.400 and California. where wildlife does cross. And 00:03:21.400 --> 00:03:23.500 then I actually, for a short period of time, 00:03:23.800 --> 00:03:26.419 was responsible for parts of the Central Valley, 00:03:26.639 --> 00:03:29.539 Fresno. But then that changed when we had a reorganization. 00:03:29.860 --> 00:03:33.039 But yes, I oversaw the agents and the wildlife 00:03:33.039 --> 00:03:35.400 inspectors who worked at the International Port 00:03:35.400 --> 00:03:38.819 in Los Angeles and at the border. So a huge geographical 00:03:38.819 --> 00:03:42.900 area and a huge population. Border port, seaport, 00:03:43.340 --> 00:03:46.020 airport, you name it. You had a huge responsibility. 00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:49.360 You know, within the U .S. Fish and Wildlife 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:51.319 Service Office of Law Enforcement, I think Los 00:03:51.319 --> 00:03:53.259 Angeles has always been considered one of the 00:03:53.259 --> 00:03:56.419 busiest field offices in the country, so... Yes, 00:03:57.400 --> 00:04:01.240 the major cities with the import -export responsibility 00:04:01.240 --> 00:04:05.800 were always the busiest. Los Angeles, New York, 00:04:05.960 --> 00:04:09.520 and Miami come to mind as being the three busiest 00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:11.699 offices with U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service. 00:04:11.960 --> 00:04:15.060 They had... large staffs, they had more special 00:04:15.060 --> 00:04:17.740 agents than some of the posts. Some of the posts, 00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:20.759 for example, for example, Missoula, Montana, 00:04:21.220 --> 00:04:23.439 had one special agent for the whole state. Right. 00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:26.399 So that's a little different area of responsibility 00:04:26.399 --> 00:04:28.920 for the supervisors as well as for the field 00:04:28.920 --> 00:04:31.500 agents. Right. Right. Yeah. You know, one of 00:04:31.500 --> 00:04:33.980 the things I remember and we'll talk about what 00:04:33.980 --> 00:04:35.959 is a special agent in just a second. But one 00:04:35.959 --> 00:04:38.199 of the things I remember when I came and started 00:04:38.199 --> 00:04:43.699 working with you is You were a working Supervisor 00:04:43.699 --> 00:04:46.079 like what I mean by that is you were one of the 00:04:46.079 --> 00:04:50.160 few supervisors I ever knew of that still insisted 00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:53.920 on working a case at least one case Even while 00:04:53.920 --> 00:04:56.560 you were supervising this huge district and I 00:04:56.560 --> 00:04:59.139 have to tell you, you know I remember that every 00:04:59.139 --> 00:05:01.360 agent in our office was super excited to help 00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:04.920 you work on that case, that was Bobby Jin. And 00:05:04.920 --> 00:05:06.500 you have so many stories, I know you're gonna 00:05:06.500 --> 00:05:10.139 be on this podcast more than once, but you know, 00:05:10.319 --> 00:05:12.779 you really set the example because you worked 00:05:12.779 --> 00:05:15.019 while you were supervising, you still got out 00:05:15.019 --> 00:05:16.959 there and you did surveillance, you did interviews, 00:05:17.319 --> 00:05:20.639 you worked your own case, in addition to supporting 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:24.300 all of us and that was a great leadership example. 00:05:25.240 --> 00:05:27.990 Well, thank you, that's quite a compliment. But 00:05:27.990 --> 00:05:31.490 it's also somewhat of a reflection on my selfishness 00:05:31.490 --> 00:05:35.449 because I liked being a supervisor, but I loved 00:05:35.449 --> 00:05:38.350 being a criminal investigator. And I didn't want 00:05:38.350 --> 00:05:41.370 to let go of some of the casework if I could 00:05:41.370 --> 00:05:45.910 still manage to have one, what I consider complex 00:05:45.910 --> 00:05:48.430 investigation, international investigation that 00:05:48.430 --> 00:05:50.949 was assigned to me. And I knew I had the staff 00:05:50.949 --> 00:05:52.930 of special agents to help me, but thank you for 00:05:52.930 --> 00:05:56.620 that. And I really think as a supervisor, It's 00:05:56.620 --> 00:06:00.660 not always possible, but I think it sends a leadership 00:06:00.660 --> 00:06:02.860 message that might be different from that supervisor 00:06:02.860 --> 00:06:05.139 who is really the administrator in the office 00:06:05.139 --> 00:06:08.939 more so than the hands -on. So it's a personality 00:06:08.939 --> 00:06:11.600 issue as well, but for me, that was the best 00:06:11.600 --> 00:06:14.800 way to, quote unquote, train the new agents. 00:06:14.879 --> 00:06:17.759 Maybe by example, do this or don't do this. You 00:06:17.759 --> 00:06:19.819 know, kind of the do as I say, not as I do things 00:06:19.819 --> 00:06:26.629 sometimes. But I think it really kept me in tune 00:06:26.629 --> 00:06:29.649 with what the field agents were doing. It made 00:06:29.649 --> 00:06:32.269 for great camaraderie. Absolutely. And that was 00:06:32.269 --> 00:06:34.470 where I say part of it was selfish as well because 00:06:34.470 --> 00:06:36.930 I loved working with the agents in the field. 00:06:37.290 --> 00:06:41.189 Absolutely. I identify with that 100 % because 00:06:41.189 --> 00:06:46.610 later after you retired the... Agent who took 00:06:46.610 --> 00:06:48.889 over as the resident agent charge was Aaron Dean 00:06:48.889 --> 00:06:51.250 and as you know, I eventually became her deputy 00:06:51.250 --> 00:06:54.569 So I was supervising as well and like you I kind 00:06:54.569 --> 00:06:57.970 of insisted on Maintaining a caseload. I wanted 00:06:57.970 --> 00:07:01.629 to do my own cases because number one You're 00:07:01.629 --> 00:07:03.730 selfish and you want to do the work right because 00:07:03.730 --> 00:07:07.569 you like it and number two it's the only way 00:07:07.569 --> 00:07:09.550 to really kind of stay up on what people are 00:07:09.550 --> 00:07:14.649 doing and Lay after you retired there was a lot 00:07:14.649 --> 00:07:18.949 of pressure from more senior managers for the 00:07:18.949 --> 00:07:21.389 first -line supervisors, the resident agents 00:07:21.389 --> 00:07:24.550 in charge, not to do casework. I mean, they were 00:07:24.550 --> 00:07:26.689 really discouraged from it and kind of almost 00:07:26.689 --> 00:07:30.149 scolded for doing it. So, for example, Erin, 00:07:31.069 --> 00:07:33.930 the person who took over after you left, she 00:07:33.930 --> 00:07:36.889 didn't feel like she could do it. She would get 00:07:36.889 --> 00:07:41.300 scolded. And I used to trick her. I used to trick 00:07:41.300 --> 00:07:43.220 her and say, I really need your help on this, 00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:46.199 Erin. I've got to have you out in the field to 00:07:46.199 --> 00:07:48.879 help me, just because I knew she wanted to get 00:07:48.879 --> 00:07:51.620 out. And I knew she's a great agent. You wouldn't 00:07:51.620 --> 00:07:54.680 want to waste that talent. That's a good example. 00:07:55.500 --> 00:07:59.959 And there might have been some trickling down 00:07:59.959 --> 00:08:03.560 from management that supervisors shouldn't have 00:08:03.560 --> 00:08:06.079 caseloads. But I may have put those in the back 00:08:06.079 --> 00:08:08.459 of my. brain somewhere and kind of forgot about 00:08:08.459 --> 00:08:10.720 them, just to keep one case going. Not that I 00:08:10.720 --> 00:08:13.860 was a rebel, but I kind of like to do things 00:08:13.860 --> 00:08:16.339 my way when I believe they would have good results. 00:08:17.279 --> 00:08:20.360 Absolutely, 100%. And you had the seniority to 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:23.920 pull that off because you had a career of 29 00:08:23.920 --> 00:08:28.029 years, right? Yes. That's a phenomenal... you 00:08:28.029 --> 00:08:31.290 know, service to the American people. And you 00:08:31.290 --> 00:08:34.649 saw a lot and you experienced a lot in how the 00:08:34.649 --> 00:08:36.990 U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service changed over 00:08:36.990 --> 00:08:39.549 the years, how the law enforcement program grew 00:08:39.549 --> 00:08:42.029 and changed. So a lot of the people you worked 00:08:42.029 --> 00:08:44.769 for, the special agents in charge, had much less 00:08:44.769 --> 00:08:48.710 experience than you did. That was, I guess, a 00:08:48.710 --> 00:08:52.049 plus for me. Absolutely. Absolutely. Gave you 00:08:52.049 --> 00:08:54.330 a little bit of the cred that allowed you to 00:08:54.330 --> 00:08:57.730 do what you wanted to do. So in that regard, 00:08:57.730 --> 00:09:01.750 let's make sure our listeners understand what 00:09:01.750 --> 00:09:03.909 a special agent is for the Fish and Wildlife 00:09:03.909 --> 00:09:08.190 Service. So, you know, tell us about it. What 00:09:08.190 --> 00:09:11.190 is a Fish and Wildlife Special Agent? So I guess 00:09:11.190 --> 00:09:12.809 I should start with what is Fish and Wildlife 00:09:12.809 --> 00:09:15.850 Service. I can do that very, very briefly. The 00:09:15.850 --> 00:09:18.429 United States Fish and Wildlife Service is a 00:09:18.429 --> 00:09:20.549 agency within the United States Department of 00:09:20.549 --> 00:09:23.070 Interior. And the Fish and Wildlife Service is 00:09:23.070 --> 00:09:28.190 responsible for managing When I say domestic, 00:09:28.309 --> 00:09:30.330 I mean species domestic to the United States. 00:09:30.450 --> 00:09:32.190 I don't mean cats and things like that. Native 00:09:32.190 --> 00:09:35.250 species. So we have the Fish and Wildlife Service 00:09:35.250 --> 00:09:38.409 are responsible for enforcing the laws that relate 00:09:38.409 --> 00:09:40.750 to the species within the United States. But 00:09:40.750 --> 00:09:43.370 uniquely enough, also international species, 00:09:43.590 --> 00:09:46.129 species that live in Africa or species that live 00:09:46.129 --> 00:09:49.169 in Asia because of the Endangered Species Act 00:09:49.169 --> 00:09:52.730 and an international treaty that the U .S. Fish 00:09:52.730 --> 00:09:54.940 and Wildlife Service signed. with, I don't know 00:09:54.940 --> 00:09:57.080 how many signature countries there are now. You're 00:09:57.080 --> 00:09:59.460 talking about CITES. Correct. Which is the Convention 00:09:59.460 --> 00:10:01.860 on International Trade in Endangered Species 00:10:01.860 --> 00:10:04.980 of Fauna and Flora. Yes. But it's CITES, C -I 00:10:04.980 --> 00:10:07.600 -T -E -S. That, I think the last time I checked, 00:10:07.779 --> 00:10:10.580 Marie, I think it's around 185 countries are 00:10:10.580 --> 00:10:13.019 signatories to that now. That's a lot. Yeah. 00:10:13.019 --> 00:10:14.960 And basically, it's an agreement between the 00:10:14.960 --> 00:10:18.120 nations to regulate and control wildlife, so 00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:20.360 it's not commercialized, and so the species aren't 00:10:20.360 --> 00:10:23.240 depleted. So with that umbrella understanding 00:10:23.240 --> 00:10:25.360 of what Fish and Wildlife Service does, it does 00:10:25.360 --> 00:10:27.840 other things in research and biology. But in 00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:30.220 the Division of Law Enforcement, which is one 00:10:30.220 --> 00:10:32.279 of the divisions within Fish and Wildlife Service, 00:10:32.940 --> 00:10:36.840 there's a group of special agents and wildlife 00:10:36.840 --> 00:10:40.080 inspectors that are charged with enforcing the 00:10:40.080 --> 00:10:42.870 Endangered Species Act, the Lacey Act. I don't 00:10:42.870 --> 00:10:45.730 know, 10 or 12 other statutes. I don't remember. 00:10:45.909 --> 00:10:47.570 I think it's in the 20s actually. It might be 00:10:47.570 --> 00:10:50.049 in the 20s now. I think so. So as you go back 00:10:50.049 --> 00:10:54.169 29 years plus. But there are a lot of federal 00:10:54.169 --> 00:10:58.110 statutes that protect wildlife and that the special 00:10:58.110 --> 00:11:00.690 agents are responsible for investigating and 00:11:00.690 --> 00:11:04.149 enforcing any violations of those laws. So there's 00:11:04.149 --> 00:11:07.240 a very wide range of statutes that... can protect 00:11:07.240 --> 00:11:11.419 migratory birds, endangered species that are 00:11:11.419 --> 00:11:13.720 native to the United States, things like the 00:11:13.720 --> 00:11:17.240 brown pelican or the bald eagle, which is no 00:11:17.240 --> 00:11:19.600 longer an endangered species thanks to work done 00:11:19.600 --> 00:11:21.440 through the United States Fish and Wildlife Service. 00:11:21.820 --> 00:11:24.820 But there's also international species like the 00:11:24.820 --> 00:11:28.200 rhinoceros, the tiger that the special agents 00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:30.840 investigate. And depending where you're assigned, 00:11:31.019 --> 00:11:33.500 you might focus on, the special agent may in 00:11:33.500 --> 00:11:36.399 fact focus on cases that involve international 00:11:36.399 --> 00:11:39.639 commercialization of wildlife versus the special 00:11:39.639 --> 00:11:42.519 agent who may, as I said earlier, may be assigned 00:11:42.519 --> 00:11:46.120 to work in Montana. And that special agent might 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:50.259 be working on wildlife hunting violations, wolf 00:11:50.259 --> 00:11:52.620 violations, things that are, other species that 00:11:52.620 --> 00:11:55.440 are protected. So that's kind of a. I don't know, 00:11:55.720 --> 00:11:58.299 a schematic of what the job entails, but the 00:11:58.299 --> 00:12:02.419 special agent is like every other special agent 00:12:02.419 --> 00:12:04.820 in the federal government. And I say that because 00:12:04.820 --> 00:12:08.539 the special agent is hired in a series, federal 00:12:08.539 --> 00:12:10.740 government has certain series where they describe 00:12:10.740 --> 00:12:13.980 a job which is tasked with investigating and 00:12:13.980 --> 00:12:16.659 enforcing laws of that particular agency. So 00:12:16.659 --> 00:12:20.840 basically I used to tell, my kids and their friends 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:22.919 when I would do presentations at their schools. 00:12:23.919 --> 00:12:26.639 Basically, official wildlife special agent is 00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:29.860 kind of like the FBI for animals. So it's an 00:12:29.860 --> 00:12:32.899 investigative position with authority to carry 00:12:32.899 --> 00:12:36.919 a firearm, to arrest. to conduct searches and 00:12:36.919 --> 00:12:41.279 seizures, present to the grand jury. So a description 00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:43.860 of a federal criminal investigator fits what 00:12:43.860 --> 00:12:45.519 a special agent with the US Fish and Wildlife 00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:48.299 does. Right. Sometimes in the trade, we called 00:12:48.299 --> 00:12:51.700 ourselves 1811s, right? Yes. Because that series 00:12:51.700 --> 00:12:54.139 you're talking about is an 1811. If you look 00:12:54.139 --> 00:12:58.460 in the federal personnel system, a GS 1811 is 00:12:58.460 --> 00:13:00.500 a special agent, regardless of what agency you 00:13:00.500 --> 00:13:03.059 work for. That's right. That's exactly right. 00:13:03.059 --> 00:13:06.019 I forgot about it. We had GS 1811 and it carries 00:13:06.019 --> 00:13:11.940 a lot of benefits as well. One, I think, aspect 00:13:11.940 --> 00:13:14.360 of being a GS 1811 that maybe Ed and I weren't 00:13:14.360 --> 00:13:17.279 so thrilled about is there is a mandatory retirement 00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:20.580 after at a certain age. I guess I could say at 00:13:20.580 --> 00:13:24.200 57. I guess at that age the federal government 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:26.559 decided that you couldn't jump over fences and 00:13:26.559 --> 00:13:28.879 kick in doors anymore. So they decided you have 00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:32.259 to retire at 57. It's so funny you say that I 00:13:32.259 --> 00:13:34.019 can't remember if you and I had this conversation 00:13:34.019 --> 00:13:37.159 before but uh it's kind of true right you know 00:13:37.159 --> 00:13:41.480 um I remember when I first came on you didn't 00:13:41.480 --> 00:13:44.460 you didn't miss a beat if somebody said hey if 00:13:44.460 --> 00:13:46.820 the gates locked we're gonna jump the fence but 00:13:46.820 --> 00:13:49.580 I do remember the last year or two I was an agent 00:13:49.580 --> 00:13:52.879 and uh went on a raid with you know US marshals 00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:55.519 or our own agents. And at the briefing, they 00:13:55.519 --> 00:13:57.200 said, Hey, if the gates locked, you know, we're 00:13:57.200 --> 00:13:58.860 going to jump over. And I, and then in my head, 00:13:59.019 --> 00:14:02.840 I thought, I'm not sure I'm gonna, you guys might, 00:14:04.500 --> 00:14:08.259 you guys that aren't approaching 57. Well, you 00:14:08.259 --> 00:14:10.720 know, I guess they're there. Maybe the decision 00:14:10.720 --> 00:14:12.860 makers who said that were wiser than we know. 00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:17.539 Maybe so. Maybe so. So, uh, yeah, an agent is 00:14:17.539 --> 00:14:21.159 a plain clothes investigator, you know, is your 00:14:21.159 --> 00:14:25.620 stereotypical. Fed, right? Exactly. So let's 00:14:25.620 --> 00:14:28.820 talk now about your long career. I don't want 00:14:28.820 --> 00:14:32.259 to, you know, dime you out as far as your age 00:14:32.259 --> 00:14:37.019 is, but you were hired what year? I was hired 00:14:37.019 --> 00:14:40.379 as a special agent in 1976. And how old were 00:14:40.379 --> 00:14:45.019 you then? 23. Now everybody gets to know how 00:14:45.019 --> 00:14:47.139 old you are. I was very young, 23. But it's important 00:14:47.139 --> 00:14:49.059 because you were young and that's kind of unusual 00:14:49.059 --> 00:14:52.139 for federal agents in general to be hired straight 00:14:52.139 --> 00:14:54.639 out of college, right? You came on straight out 00:14:54.639 --> 00:14:59.960 of college. Pretty much, yeah. So how did you, 00:15:00.740 --> 00:15:03.899 as a young woman in the 70s, decide you wanted 00:15:03.899 --> 00:15:06.220 to be a special agent for Fish and Wildlife Service? 00:15:06.259 --> 00:15:09.799 How did that happen? You know, that's an interesting 00:15:09.799 --> 00:15:14.059 question, Ed, because I studied criminology when 00:15:14.059 --> 00:15:16.919 I was in college. My undergraduate degree was 00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:19.179 criminology. There was no criminal justice degree. 00:15:19.340 --> 00:15:23.159 And actually, criminology was a new area in the 00:15:23.159 --> 00:15:26.679 70s of specialization. Pretty much before that, 00:15:26.679 --> 00:15:29.100 I think it was sociology or political science. 00:15:29.620 --> 00:15:31.779 And so I studied criminology. Where'd you go 00:15:31.779 --> 00:15:33.440 to school? I went to school in Pennsylvania, 00:15:33.740 --> 00:15:36.440 Indiana University of Pennsylvania, small state 00:15:36.440 --> 00:15:39.720 school. Kind of a similar set up in Pennsylvania 00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:42.659 as California has with state universities and 00:15:42.659 --> 00:15:45.159 state colleges. Pennsylvania didn't have as many 00:15:45.159 --> 00:15:48.480 of courses as California does, but it was a state 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:53.740 school. And we had adjunct faculty that taught 00:15:53.740 --> 00:15:58.720 policing and investigative work, which I really 00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:02.259 enjoyed. And when I studied criminology, I remember 00:16:02.259 --> 00:16:04.220 speaking with one of my professors and saying, 00:16:05.280 --> 00:16:08.279 I would like to be an investigator. I don't want 00:16:08.279 --> 00:16:12.480 to put on a uniform every day, but I like connecting 00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:18.000 the dots and figuring out what happens. I really 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:21.159 want to catch the bad guys. And I learned that 00:16:21.159 --> 00:16:23.639 from some of the case studies we did in the classroom. 00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:27.460 So when I studied criminology, we were very fortunate 00:16:27.460 --> 00:16:29.659 at my school, just like I believe our students 00:16:29.659 --> 00:16:32.019 are here at Dominguez Hills, we had an internship 00:16:32.019 --> 00:16:35.559 program. So one summer between my junior and 00:16:35.559 --> 00:16:38.120 senior year, I was able to intern at, are you 00:16:38.120 --> 00:16:42.419 ready? The Pennsylvania Bureau of Investigations. 00:16:43.929 --> 00:16:46.629 PBI. Nice. Like the state version of FBI. Correct. 00:16:46.649 --> 00:16:48.909 Like I think Colorado has a Bureau of Investigation, 00:16:49.110 --> 00:16:51.309 Georgia has one. Yeah. I didn't know Pennsylvania 00:16:51.309 --> 00:16:53.529 had one. Yeah. But how does that lead you to 00:16:53.529 --> 00:16:54.990 the United States Fish and Wildlife Service? 00:16:54.990 --> 00:16:57.110 So what happened was I got a bigger and better 00:16:57.110 --> 00:16:59.169 taste of investigations and I was sure that's 00:16:59.169 --> 00:17:01.509 what I wanted to do. Got it. So when I graduated 00:17:01.509 --> 00:17:04.500 from school I took a test. with the federal government. 00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:06.700 I'm like, well, I'm going to go for it. So I 00:17:06.700 --> 00:17:08.559 took a test back then. You have to take a test. 00:17:08.599 --> 00:17:10.500 And it was called the Treasury Enforcement Agent 00:17:10.500 --> 00:17:13.200 Exam. So I took that. I did very well on it. 00:17:13.460 --> 00:17:15.880 And then I just went to Washington, DC, because 00:17:15.880 --> 00:17:18.119 I had a family member who lived there. And I 00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:19.519 thought, well, I'm going to look for a federal 00:17:19.519 --> 00:17:24.359 job, maybe US Customs back then, or DEA. So I 00:17:24.359 --> 00:17:27.319 actually got an interview. I was interviewing 00:17:27.319 --> 00:17:29.440 with the US Customs Service. I'm pretty sure 00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:31.799 that's who it was, the predecessor to what we 00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:35.640 have. under DHS now and the person in she was 00:17:35.640 --> 00:17:39.400 interviewing me the HR lady and she said you 00:17:39.400 --> 00:17:42.480 know you have great credentials you do have some 00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:45.640 experience from your um from your internship 00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:50.660 three months she said US Fish and Wildlife Service 00:17:50.660 --> 00:17:53.059 is recruiting and she said this they're looking 00:17:53.059 --> 00:17:55.839 for women agents because they're trying to balance 00:17:55.839 --> 00:18:00.299 out their new concept of being criminal investigators 00:18:00.299 --> 00:18:03.660 rather than federal gay management agents. So 00:18:03.660 --> 00:18:06.000 they had just gone through a restructuring where 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:07.740 they were looking, they, Meaning Fish and Wildlife 00:18:07.740 --> 00:18:10.599 Service, they were looking for criminal investigators 00:18:10.599 --> 00:18:13.819 versus gay wardens that wanted to be federal 00:18:13.819 --> 00:18:15.920 agents. So they were trying to expand and do 00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:18.279 more criminal investigations, international cases. 00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:20.720 So I said, well, I don't really know much about 00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:24.569 them. So she told me about him I researched and 00:18:24.569 --> 00:18:28.670 I was so excited because I don't know this is 00:18:28.670 --> 00:18:31.569 really going back but the very first Earth Day 00:18:31.569 --> 00:18:35.109 was when I was a senior in high school and I 00:18:35.109 --> 00:18:38.549 started believing that I was becoming an environmentalist, 00:18:38.710 --> 00:18:40.430 but I didn't really take that with me to college. 00:18:40.549 --> 00:18:42.529 It was just kind of a concept, a way of life, 00:18:42.630 --> 00:18:44.950 where we're becoming more aware of pollution, 00:18:45.150 --> 00:18:48.569 of littering, of our air, and global warming, 00:18:48.710 --> 00:18:50.650 things that we didn't really know a lot about 00:18:50.650 --> 00:18:52.910 back then, but it was kind of an eye -opener 00:18:52.910 --> 00:18:57.750 for people that were, you know, in... Young young 00:18:57.750 --> 00:19:00.190 under 20s high school kids. We had a little group 00:19:00.190 --> 00:19:01.930 where we went and picked up trash So it was kind 00:19:01.930 --> 00:19:04.710 of you know predecessor being an environmentalist, 00:19:04.730 --> 00:19:07.029 right? So when she told me about US Fish and 00:19:07.029 --> 00:19:09.650 Wildlife Service I said well that sounds like 00:19:09.650 --> 00:19:11.569 something I would really be interested in because 00:19:11.569 --> 00:19:14.890 I grew up in Western PA I spent time in the outdoors 00:19:14.890 --> 00:19:18.650 with my cousins my family just a little side 00:19:18.650 --> 00:19:21.029 my family and my cousin's family walk kind of 00:19:21.029 --> 00:19:25.920 grew up together and each one of my sisters had 00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:28.880 a cousin her age, but I was the only one that 00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:31.940 had a boy cousin my age. So I used to hang out 00:19:31.940 --> 00:19:34.019 in the woods with him. We'd run in the creeks. 00:19:34.019 --> 00:19:36.380 We'd play combat. We'd do all this stuff that 00:19:36.380 --> 00:19:39.039 kind of exposed me to the outdoors more than 00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:41.319 I probably would have with my sisters, so to 00:19:41.319 --> 00:19:43.539 speak. But I really enjoyed it. I mean, I guess 00:19:43.539 --> 00:19:45.059 it's the best way to put it. Did I ever think 00:19:45.059 --> 00:19:48.039 about being a gay more? Probably not. But I really, 00:19:48.039 --> 00:19:50.779 really believed in the mission of the Fish and 00:19:50.779 --> 00:19:52.579 Wildlife Service when I learned about it. So 00:19:52.579 --> 00:19:54.559 that's what happened. I went for an interview 00:19:54.559 --> 00:19:57.559 at Fish and Wildlife after that wonderful lady 00:19:57.559 --> 00:20:01.279 referred me to them. And I got lucky because 00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:04.339 they were putting together a new class. And I 00:20:04.339 --> 00:20:06.380 waited a little bit, but it wasn't very long. 00:20:06.380 --> 00:20:08.079 It was probably within a year and I got hired. 00:20:08.180 --> 00:20:10.400 That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Timing is everything, 00:20:10.460 --> 00:20:13.420 right? It is. It is. And, you know, this is mid 00:20:13.420 --> 00:20:17.420 70s, so law enforcement in general was a heavily 00:20:17.420 --> 00:20:20.839 male dominated profession. Do you even know, 00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:23.490 like, what How many other women before you had 00:20:23.490 --> 00:20:25.349 been hired to be special agents for fish and 00:20:25.349 --> 00:20:26.950 wildlife, specifically for fish and wildlife? 00:20:26.970 --> 00:20:29.670 For fish and wildlife, when I was hired in 1976, 00:20:29.910 --> 00:20:32.029 I thought about this the other day, there were 00:20:32.029 --> 00:20:34.950 four women special agents that had been hired. 00:20:34.950 --> 00:20:38.849 Wow. Before you? Yeah, before me, right. And 00:20:38.849 --> 00:20:41.130 I think when I actually started, there were three. 00:20:41.170 --> 00:20:45.230 One of them quit. She didn't like it. So I was 00:20:45.230 --> 00:20:48.500 one of four at the time I got hired. I imagine 00:20:48.500 --> 00:20:50.940 and this is probably a topic for a whole other 00:20:50.940 --> 00:20:54.579 episode is I can only imagine that there was 00:20:54.579 --> 00:20:56.640 probably some resistance among some of the men 00:20:56.640 --> 00:20:59.500 in the in the Fish and Wildlife Service about 00:20:59.500 --> 00:21:04.400 bringing on women. Probably. And it probably 00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:10.819 took some serious. Yeah. The courage to to like 00:21:10.819 --> 00:21:13.279 stick it out and do it and and be good at it. 00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:16.519 Yeah. You know, it was it was a time period where 00:21:16.779 --> 00:21:19.660 Like you say, law enforcement in general, criminal 00:21:19.660 --> 00:21:22.220 investigations, was pretty much male -dominated. 00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:25.720 The FBI hired its first woman agent in 1973. 00:21:25.859 --> 00:21:28.539 So just a few years before. So the other federal 00:21:28.539 --> 00:21:31.200 agencies started to follow, which is why, to 00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:34.380 her credit, the HR woman, I'm sure she told other 00:21:34.380 --> 00:21:38.480 people as well, that the focus right then was 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:41.059 to try to diversify the force to get some women 00:21:41.059 --> 00:21:45.740 in. And so that's what I did. She just happened 00:21:45.740 --> 00:21:47.519 to think I was a fish and wildlife kind of person. 00:21:47.539 --> 00:21:50.140 I don't know, but she sent me there, which was 00:21:50.140 --> 00:21:52.059 great. Yeah, it certainly worked out. And, you 00:21:52.059 --> 00:21:54.200 know, the timing of it, as you mentioned, kind 00:21:54.200 --> 00:21:58.160 of that era, you know, Clean Water Act was signed 00:21:58.160 --> 00:22:00.740 during this time, became law, the Endangered 00:22:00.740 --> 00:22:03.640 Species Act became law. So there was kind of 00:22:03.640 --> 00:22:06.839 this environmental wake up call in the United 00:22:06.839 --> 00:22:09.640 States. I remember as a kid, even I don't think 00:22:09.640 --> 00:22:12.740 it was early 70s. you know, there was a river 00:22:12.740 --> 00:22:17.000 in Ohio that caught on fire. I remember, I think 00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:23.740 it's the Cuyahoga. I remember that really vividly 00:22:23.740 --> 00:22:26.079 seeing that on news and in my little, you know, 00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:28.380 young person's brain, I'm like, how can a river 00:22:28.380 --> 00:22:32.279 be on fire? And I think that was indicative of 00:22:32.279 --> 00:22:34.720 the damage that our country had done to its environment. 00:22:34.940 --> 00:22:37.759 And so anyway, that kind of leads me to the next 00:22:37.759 --> 00:22:41.299 thing, because Endangered Species Act enacted 00:22:41.299 --> 00:22:45.339 in 1973 in the form that we know it today and 00:22:45.339 --> 00:22:49.269 one of the first species listed among the first 00:22:49.269 --> 00:22:52.170 species listed was the American alligator. And 00:22:52.170 --> 00:22:54.170 we're going to talk about alligators today because 00:22:54.170 --> 00:22:57.930 one of your very first really cases of significance 00:22:57.930 --> 00:23:01.430 involved American alligators, which I don't think 00:23:01.430 --> 00:23:03.950 most people even think about today because they're 00:23:03.950 --> 00:23:07.450 pretty common now. They're still interestingly, 00:23:07.690 --> 00:23:10.630 I checked on this before I came here today, they're 00:23:10.630 --> 00:23:13.500 still listed as threatened. But it's not because 00:23:13.500 --> 00:23:17.019 they're actually endangered. So the way the Endangered 00:23:17.019 --> 00:23:18.900 Species Act work, as you know, but just for our 00:23:18.900 --> 00:23:22.220 listeners, if an animal is listed under the ESA 00:23:22.220 --> 00:23:26.220 as endangered, it means it is at immediate risk 00:23:26.220 --> 00:23:29.779 of becoming extinct. If it's listed as threatened, 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:32.279 it means it's at risk of becoming endangered. 00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:34.759 So there's kind of these different levels of 00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:39.039 protection. But as far as the law goes, The prohibitions 00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:41.640 about what you can do to an endangered or threatened 00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:43.779 animal are the same. It's just the penalties 00:23:43.779 --> 00:23:47.119 that vary but anyway, alligators are still listed 00:23:47.119 --> 00:23:48.839 as threatened which surprised me but it turns 00:23:48.839 --> 00:23:52.680 out the reason why is because they Have such 00:23:52.680 --> 00:23:55.259 a similar appearance to the American crocodile 00:23:55.259 --> 00:23:58.380 which is endangered and at risk of extinction. 00:23:58.740 --> 00:24:02.680 So by keeping them on the Endangered species 00:24:02.680 --> 00:24:06.640 list as threatened now it gives them it gives 00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:09.140 enforcement and the government an opportunity 00:24:09.140 --> 00:24:11.980 to extend protections to the crocodile which 00:24:11.980 --> 00:24:14.599 Yeah, I never thought of that. I was an agent 00:24:14.599 --> 00:24:17.380 and similarity of appearance similarity of appearance 00:24:17.380 --> 00:24:22.099 Yeah, so but back in in tell us what what was 00:24:22.099 --> 00:24:24.559 the situation with the American alligator when 00:24:24.559 --> 00:24:27.000 you became an agent well when I became an agent 00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:30.160 the American alligator was listed as endangered 00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:34.420 and when it happened Historically, so this was 00:24:34.420 --> 00:24:36.779 in the 70, you know, maybe 20 30 years before 00:24:36.779 --> 00:24:39.660 that was the American alligator had been hunted 00:24:39.660 --> 00:24:43.740 and The skins had been sent overseas and it was 00:24:43.740 --> 00:24:46.359 a very much a fashion commodity which it still 00:24:46.359 --> 00:24:49.809 is today but it Handled way differently now, 00:24:50.109 --> 00:24:53.009 but during that time period people were wearing 00:24:53.009 --> 00:24:57.309 alligator boots alligator belts women had handbag 00:24:57.309 --> 00:25:01.049 So it was a very popular commodity to have in 00:25:01.049 --> 00:25:03.269 the leather industry all over the world all over 00:25:03.269 --> 00:25:06.650 the world and Basically, you know from the United 00:25:06.650 --> 00:25:09.390 States alligator population to the skins being 00:25:09.390 --> 00:25:12.740 sent to France and Italy and Japan even to be 00:25:12.740 --> 00:25:17.240 made into clothing materials or, anyway, apparel, 00:25:17.319 --> 00:25:19.140 the apparel industry. So it was very popular. 00:25:19.339 --> 00:25:23.000 And also, you've got to think about where alligators 00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:27.039 live. So they live in the, their habitat is in 00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:30.339 Louisiana and Florida, and there was a population 00:25:30.339 --> 00:25:34.890 in Louisiana of Would say poachers for lack of 00:25:34.890 --> 00:25:37.309 a better word who could make some money from 00:25:37.309 --> 00:25:40.470 actually killing alligators and Selling the skins 00:25:40.470 --> 00:25:42.809 and that's kind of what was happening when I 00:25:42.809 --> 00:25:45.910 became a new agent the awareness of the extent 00:25:46.269 --> 00:25:49.289 The demise of the alligator from the poaching 00:25:49.289 --> 00:25:51.329 became came to the forefront of the Fish and 00:25:51.329 --> 00:25:54.029 Wildlife Service So they had conducted and started 00:25:54.029 --> 00:25:56.950 investigations into well, who's actually poaching 00:25:56.950 --> 00:25:59.890 these? How is this network working? Right. So 00:25:59.890 --> 00:26:04.109 remember as I said earlier in 1974 maybe 73. 00:26:04.269 --> 00:26:07.579 I'm not sure the exact year Couple years before 00:26:07.579 --> 00:26:11.079 I was hired the focus of fish and wildlife expanded 00:26:11.079 --> 00:26:13.740 from game management agent to criminal investigator 00:26:13.740 --> 00:26:17.019 So this was an opportunity to actually conduct 00:26:17.019 --> 00:26:20.579 an investigation Into commercialization of one 00:26:20.579 --> 00:26:23.599 of our species that lived in the United States 00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:27.630 and an international I guess conglomerate of 00:26:27.630 --> 00:26:31.250 smugglers, poachers, and enterprise, a money 00:26:31.250 --> 00:26:34.450 -making operation, which Ed, you know Ed, and 00:26:34.450 --> 00:26:36.309 we know throughout the years, that's really usually 00:26:36.309 --> 00:26:39.210 the root of all these cases that we investigate 00:26:39.210 --> 00:26:43.450 is about money. Yeah, and it takes on this extra 00:26:43.450 --> 00:26:46.690 level or layer of importance because we are not 00:26:46.690 --> 00:26:49.349 talking about some good old boys who are going 00:26:49.349 --> 00:26:52.470 out and shooting a few alligators for fun, you 00:26:52.470 --> 00:26:55.089 know, the classic poacher. What we're talking 00:26:55.089 --> 00:26:59.490 about are people who are involved in a fairly 00:26:59.490 --> 00:27:04.730 complex criminal enterprise that's ongoing with 00:27:04.730 --> 00:27:07.569 multiple layers. So you've got the poachers who 00:27:07.569 --> 00:27:10.349 are then selling to distributors who are then 00:27:10.349 --> 00:27:13.829 selling on to the next level, ultimately to people 00:27:13.829 --> 00:27:17.069 who are shipping them overseas. And so it becomes 00:27:17.069 --> 00:27:22.250 that's how that can really cause a threat to 00:27:22.250 --> 00:27:25.859 an entire Species right because once that commercialization 00:27:25.859 --> 00:27:31.200 kicks in Can wipe them out, right? Yes So almost 00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:34.039 did a couple of our other species. So yes, it's 00:27:34.039 --> 00:27:36.779 not it's not limited to the American alligator 00:27:36.779 --> 00:27:40.339 and it still goes on today, you know You know 00:27:40.339 --> 00:27:44.359 the totoaba fish in Mexico the you know sea cucumbers 00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:47.880 are under threat now Native tortoises and turtles 00:27:47.880 --> 00:27:50.839 in the southeast are now under threat. So yeah, 00:27:50.839 --> 00:27:53.960 it's it's it's a It can be a problem, but it's 00:27:53.960 --> 00:27:57.920 interesting because certainly all of the biologists 00:27:57.920 --> 00:28:00.079 of the Fish and Wildlife Service and the state 00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:05.039 agencies deserve much credit for the recovery 00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:06.940 of the American alligator or the bald eagle or 00:28:06.940 --> 00:28:13.220 whatever. But I think the unsung heroes of species 00:28:13.220 --> 00:28:15.420 preservation and protection and recovery are 00:28:15.420 --> 00:28:20.240 law enforcement because when someone like you 00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:24.180 gets involved in does a good case and takes out 00:28:24.180 --> 00:28:26.240 some of these people who were involved in these 00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:29.220 ongoing criminal enterprises. It gives the species 00:28:29.220 --> 00:28:31.400 breathing room, right? It gives them a chance 00:28:31.400 --> 00:28:33.759 to recover and for the biologists to do their 00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:35.640 job. And a lot of times I don't think people 00:28:35.640 --> 00:28:39.339 realize the role law enforcement plays in not 00:28:39.339 --> 00:28:42.940 just protecting but recovering species who are 00:28:42.940 --> 00:28:44.740 about to become extinct. Yeah, that's a good 00:28:44.740 --> 00:28:48.220 point. And I think probably it's the nature of 00:28:48.220 --> 00:28:51.180 law enforcement culture itself, too. Yeah. Law 00:28:51.180 --> 00:28:54.029 enforcement agents special agents investigators 00:28:54.029 --> 00:28:59.740 do their job want to make sure that the Bad guy 00:28:59.740 --> 00:29:01.839 for lack of a better description and the whole 00:29:01.839 --> 00:29:04.299 chain of bad guys are taken down and then move 00:29:04.299 --> 00:29:07.319 on to the next species or the next case The recovery 00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:09.460 just kind of comes with it, which is great And 00:29:09.460 --> 00:29:11.099 that's an interesting point too because one of 00:29:11.099 --> 00:29:12.640 the nice things about working in the Fish and 00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:15.680 Wildlife Service was the collaboration between 00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:18.539 the criminal investigators and the biologists 00:29:18.539 --> 00:29:22.799 and the research entity to Save species pretty 00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:26.109 much right? Yeah, but their habitat Exactly. 00:29:26.369 --> 00:29:28.589 But I think you're right. I think agents, I certainly 00:29:28.589 --> 00:29:31.190 didn't walk around thinking I was saving species, 00:29:31.470 --> 00:29:35.329 right? I think the best agents are cops first. 00:29:36.849 --> 00:29:40.250 We're a little biased, but yes. They don't like 00:29:40.250 --> 00:29:42.450 criminals, period, right? And if they weren't 00:29:42.450 --> 00:29:44.210 a fish and wildlife agent, they'd be some other 00:29:44.210 --> 00:29:46.950 sort of cop. You know, your example's the perfect 00:29:46.950 --> 00:29:49.420 example. We're interested in law enforcement 00:29:49.420 --> 00:29:52.000 and but within law enforcement fish and wildlife 00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:54.240 was attractive to you. That was exactly the same 00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:57.299 for me How lucky were we totally I mean think 00:29:57.299 --> 00:29:59.579 about being a law enforcement person or criminal 00:29:59.579 --> 00:30:01.339 investigator in another agency It would have 00:30:01.339 --> 00:30:05.609 been fine, but the reward of actually thinking 00:30:05.609 --> 00:30:07.589 that you're making the world a better place. 00:30:07.809 --> 00:30:09.589 And you are with other types of crime as well, 00:30:09.670 --> 00:30:11.950 but just from nature. I mean, you know, step 00:30:11.950 --> 00:30:14.329 outside one day and well, maybe not now, but 00:30:14.329 --> 00:30:17.250 in certain times in in our history and just look 00:30:17.250 --> 00:30:19.549 outside, go to a national park, just appreciate 00:30:19.549 --> 00:30:23.289 nature. And I think worldwide. We have a really 00:30:23.289 --> 00:30:25.589 small impact on that and small is better than 00:30:25.589 --> 00:30:28.289 none. Yeah, and I think sometimes it's it's bigger 00:30:28.289 --> 00:30:31.829 than we think it is I think, you know a lot of 00:30:31.829 --> 00:30:34.369 the world looks to us because we have we do have 00:30:34.369 --> 00:30:37.109 the Endangered Species Act we do protect species 00:30:37.109 --> 00:30:40.309 that are not native to the United States as well 00:30:40.309 --> 00:30:43.730 as native species and I think I think a lot of 00:30:43.730 --> 00:30:47.029 the world does look to us as a leader in in law 00:30:47.029 --> 00:30:50.029 enforcement for wildlife so let's get back to 00:30:50.029 --> 00:30:53.000 alligators now, so We've got this situation now 00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:56.460 in the mid 70s where, uh, alligators populations 00:30:56.460 --> 00:30:59.339 are crashing in part because of like unchecked 00:30:59.339 --> 00:31:03.259 poaching and this commercial pressure. So, uh, 00:31:03.740 --> 00:31:07.779 how do you get involved in this? You, you, not 00:31:07.779 --> 00:31:10.799 only were you hired as a young person to become 00:31:10.799 --> 00:31:13.660 an agent, but pretty quickly you got recruited 00:31:13.660 --> 00:31:16.279 to go into the special operations unit. So you 00:31:16.279 --> 00:31:20.039 didn't you? Correct. Yeah. Tell us what SOU is. 00:31:20.380 --> 00:31:23.940 Okay, so SOU stands for Special Operations Unit 00:31:23.940 --> 00:31:28.220 and when I actually when I applied for the job 00:31:28.220 --> 00:31:33.170 as a special agent I told the interviewers and 00:31:33.170 --> 00:31:35.589 I don't know why, but I did. I think I had, part 00:31:35.589 --> 00:31:37.809 of my research, I basically said that I wanted 00:31:37.809 --> 00:31:40.950 to work undercover. I told them that. But I said 00:31:40.950 --> 00:31:42.470 I would be assigned wherever they were gonna 00:31:42.470 --> 00:31:44.970 send me because I wanted the job so badly. So 00:31:44.970 --> 00:31:46.990 before I went to the Academy, I did not know 00:31:46.990 --> 00:31:48.930 where I was gonna be assigned. And then while 00:31:48.930 --> 00:31:53.109 we were at the Academy, I was lucky. I got assigned 00:31:53.109 --> 00:31:57.380 to Washington, D .C. and in the S .O .U. unit, 00:31:57.660 --> 00:31:59.200 so special operations unit, which at that time 00:31:59.200 --> 00:32:00.819 was very small. I think there were four or five 00:32:00.819 --> 00:32:05.319 special agents working only undercover. And just 00:32:05.319 --> 00:32:07.559 a little piece about that unit, I don't know 00:32:07.559 --> 00:32:09.819 how much it's changed since then. A lot. But 00:32:09.819 --> 00:32:14.079 those particular agents were based in headquarters, 00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:16.740 but they were giving assignments all over the 00:32:16.740 --> 00:32:20.680 country. So for example, we'll do the alligator, 00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:24.160 but just to Give one example, let's say that 00:32:24.160 --> 00:32:28.119 we had information that somebody maybe was selling 00:32:28.119 --> 00:32:32.440 illegal walrus ivory that had come from Alaska 00:32:32.440 --> 00:32:35.480 and was being sold internationally or in interstate 00:32:35.480 --> 00:32:38.609 commerce. I may have been called to go to be 00:32:38.609 --> 00:32:41.269 a buyer for that ivory. So it just, it depended 00:32:41.269 --> 00:32:43.529 on the niche and that type of thing, you know, 00:32:43.650 --> 00:32:46.910 versus maybe there was a hunting operation that 00:32:46.910 --> 00:32:49.569 needed somebody to go in and just get some intelligence 00:32:49.569 --> 00:32:51.569 on what they're doing because there was information 00:32:51.569 --> 00:32:54.269 that they were poaching and... Selling parts 00:32:54.269 --> 00:32:56.470 of bears or something. So maybe I would go in 00:32:56.470 --> 00:32:58.769 on that with another agent So it just depended 00:32:58.769 --> 00:33:01.529 the field agents in those regions did it as well 00:33:01.529 --> 00:33:03.490 But sometimes there were more long -term cases 00:33:03.490 --> 00:33:06.210 where the undercover agents would do it. So I 00:33:06.210 --> 00:33:10.509 wanted to do that and I think I know this now. 00:33:10.509 --> 00:33:12.650 I don't think I knew that then what I'm gonna 00:33:12.650 --> 00:33:15.509 say I think part of the reason that it was so 00:33:15.509 --> 00:33:18.789 attractive to me is I believed it would be easier 00:33:19.970 --> 00:33:23.710 than knocking on doors and saying, I have a warrant 00:33:23.710 --> 00:33:27.049 for your arrest and looking up at the person 00:33:27.049 --> 00:33:31.210 versus here I am, gee, I don't know anything 00:33:31.210 --> 00:33:33.069 about alligators. Will you tell me about them? 00:33:33.349 --> 00:33:37.009 So to me it was an easier segue from being a 00:33:37.009 --> 00:33:40.529 college kid to being a professional. So you said 00:33:40.529 --> 00:33:44.349 that looking up at somebody and saying, we do 00:33:44.349 --> 00:33:47.039 have to point out how tall are you? Five went 00:33:47.039 --> 00:33:52.880 on a good day. Right. So diminutive frame. Yes. 00:33:54.180 --> 00:33:58.299 So that's what happened. So I told them I wanted 00:33:58.299 --> 00:34:00.660 to do and I was very enamored by what the undercover 00:34:00.660 --> 00:34:02.819 agents were doing because I knew about it and 00:34:02.819 --> 00:34:06.559 I learned more about it at the Academy. So what 00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:09.920 happens is the Fish and Wildlife Service have 00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:12.300 a the leaders of each region, they're called 00:34:12.300 --> 00:34:15.420 the special agents in charge. And back then there 00:34:15.420 --> 00:34:18.780 were eight regions. So every year, twice a year, 00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:21.360 the special agent in charge, the SAC, they would 00:34:21.360 --> 00:34:23.760 have this meeting. So they had a meeting right 00:34:23.760 --> 00:34:25.719 around the time I got out of the academy and 00:34:25.719 --> 00:34:27.639 it happened to be in Washington D .C. where I 00:34:27.639 --> 00:34:30.559 was stationed. And they had the meeting and they 00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:32.360 were talking about one of the things on the agenda 00:34:32.360 --> 00:34:36.489 was we have to do something about this. Operation 00:34:36.489 --> 00:34:39.210 that's going on where alligators are being poached 00:34:39.210 --> 00:34:41.269 the poachers are being paid They're couriering 00:34:41.269 --> 00:34:43.389 them to different places in the country and they're 00:34:43.389 --> 00:34:47.590 being shipped overseas. Okay, and Hark We have 00:34:47.590 --> 00:34:52.409 an informant named AJK row from Louisiana who 00:34:52.409 --> 00:34:55.250 is coming forward We busted him before he wants 00:34:55.250 --> 00:34:58.590 to help us because he has a vendetta against 00:34:58.590 --> 00:35:02.090 one of the couriers. Uh -huh and so they sat 00:35:02.090 --> 00:35:06.460 around the table and Dave Hall who was a special 00:35:06.460 --> 00:35:09.019 agent in charge in New Orleans at the time in 00:35:09.019 --> 00:35:12.639 Louisiana Said well, we just have a bunch of 00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:16.139 new agents that come out of the Academy and we 00:35:16.139 --> 00:35:19.820 need to send AJ in with his girlfriend Because 00:35:19.820 --> 00:35:22.679 he usually brought a friend with him when he 00:35:22.679 --> 00:35:25.659 brought the skins to New York which is what he 00:35:25.659 --> 00:35:29.960 was doing and Why don't we have Marie Palladini 00:35:29.960 --> 00:35:33.619 go with him because she fits the role? Whatever 00:35:33.619 --> 00:35:38.079 that was. Right. Right. The role might have been 00:35:38.079 --> 00:35:40.179 just you were a woman. Right. I think that's 00:35:40.179 --> 00:35:46.199 what it was. Which is actually a deadly set of 00:35:46.199 --> 00:35:49.500 skills to have. To have that as your gender doing 00:35:49.500 --> 00:35:51.860 undercover work, you're often not suspected. 00:35:51.980 --> 00:35:54.059 Because there were a couple hundred other people 00:35:54.059 --> 00:35:57.619 that couldn't have done it, right? So that's 00:35:57.619 --> 00:36:00.400 what happened. And I guess from what Dave Hall, 00:36:00.679 --> 00:36:05.590 who believed in me, Told me after he got a lot 00:36:05.590 --> 00:36:07.829 of pushback around the table interesting. Yeah, 00:36:07.969 --> 00:36:11.590 she's new She doesn't know anything something 00:36:11.590 --> 00:36:15.869 happens. This is dangerous Because they were 00:36:15.869 --> 00:36:18.010 you know, they were career criminals These were 00:36:18.010 --> 00:36:19.849 not people that were just you know, like you 00:36:19.849 --> 00:36:22.449 said earlier poach one alligator and sell it 00:36:22.449 --> 00:36:24.849 I mean there were thousands of alligators being 00:36:24.849 --> 00:36:29.429 transported. Yeah between the bayou in Louisiana 00:36:29.929 --> 00:36:34.809 to this particular case to the middle man, a 00:36:34.809 --> 00:36:37.550 guy named Jack Kelly in New York. Wow. Okay. 00:36:37.590 --> 00:36:41.570 And then Jack Kelly worked with the, I guess 00:36:41.570 --> 00:36:45.250 the the larger entity, the corporation, a guy 00:36:45.250 --> 00:36:48.050 named Jack Kloppish, who owned he actually owned 00:36:48.050 --> 00:36:50.590 a leather business. And they were sending the 00:36:50.590 --> 00:36:54.269 alligator skins in with other leathers over to 00:36:54.269 --> 00:36:57.909 Japan and France. to be made into products. So 00:36:57.909 --> 00:37:01.210 I imagine this broader SOU investigation was 00:37:01.210 --> 00:37:03.369 targeting those guys, right? Correct. Yeah, because 00:37:03.369 --> 00:37:05.329 they want to take out the higher level and kill 00:37:05.329 --> 00:37:09.090 the whole operation. Exactly. And apparently 00:37:09.090 --> 00:37:14.369 the intelligence they had was that Kelly and 00:37:14.369 --> 00:37:18.489 or one of his colleagues would drive down to 00:37:18.489 --> 00:37:21.449 Louisiana, pick up skins and then take them back 00:37:21.449 --> 00:37:23.210 up to New York and then ship them out of New 00:37:23.210 --> 00:37:26.860 Jersey. I see. Out of the terminal there. And 00:37:26.860 --> 00:37:29.860 sometimes AJ, the informant, would drive them 00:37:29.860 --> 00:37:32.280 up himself with a friend, usually a girlfriend, 00:37:32.719 --> 00:37:34.619 and they would drive from New Orleans, which 00:37:34.619 --> 00:37:37.539 is 1 ,500 miles from New Jersey all the way up 00:37:37.539 --> 00:37:40.460 to New York, carrying stinky alligator skins 00:37:40.460 --> 00:37:43.820 up to New Jersey and then ship them out of the 00:37:43.820 --> 00:37:46.659 country and meet with Kelly and AJ would get 00:37:46.659 --> 00:37:52.500 paid. And interestingly enough, alligators... 00:37:52.619 --> 00:37:54.420 Don't know how long they are now. They might 00:37:54.420 --> 00:37:56.159 be bigger now, but they they would range about 00:37:56.159 --> 00:37:59.739 five feet in length Okay smaller yeah, and and 00:37:59.739 --> 00:38:03.920 AJ would take them skin them out and salt the 00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:10.239 hides and then measure them and the the The price 00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:12.960 would be about forty to fifty dollars per linear 00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:16.610 foot Wow, so AJ stood to make Decent amount of 00:38:16.610 --> 00:38:18.309 money and then at each stage along the way, of 00:38:18.309 --> 00:38:21.530 course the price goes up So it was a worthwhile 00:38:21.530 --> 00:38:24.170 venture I guess for somebody that lived in the 00:38:24.170 --> 00:38:26.590 bayou and new alligators and you know had a kind 00:38:26.590 --> 00:38:29.590 of a poaching Lifestyle, so I mean, you know, 00:38:29.690 --> 00:38:31.050 those are the people they're recruited because 00:38:31.050 --> 00:38:33.090 they have the skill set to go get the animal 00:38:33.090 --> 00:38:36.510 right and then as the skill set gets more sophisticated 00:38:36.510 --> 00:38:39.199 moving up in terms of Finding buyers and how 00:38:39.199 --> 00:38:41.679 to ship and how to smuggle the price goes up. 00:38:41.679 --> 00:38:46.260 Yeah, exactly Yeah, and AJ had a bad situation 00:38:46.260 --> 00:38:49.039 happen one time when he brought the skins to 00:38:49.039 --> 00:38:53.980 Kelly Kelly was a Probably still is now Kelly's 00:38:53.980 --> 00:38:56.119 the guy in New York Kelly is the middleman in 00:38:56.119 --> 00:38:59.260 New York that I was assigned to work with AJ 00:38:59.260 --> 00:39:03.880 to actually investigate, get enough information 00:39:03.880 --> 00:39:07.199 as an undercover agent of his operation and how 00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:10.739 they were sending the skins overseas. So buying, 00:39:11.400 --> 00:39:16.139 repackaging, and sending. So, Kelly, I guess, 00:39:16.340 --> 00:39:18.440 Kelly was the kind of guy, he was kind of a, 00:39:18.440 --> 00:39:23.239 I don't know, hoodlum, so to speak, and he basically 00:39:23.239 --> 00:39:25.860 upset AJ on one of the trips because AJ brought 00:39:25.860 --> 00:39:28.920 his quote unquote girlfriend with him, not me, 00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:32.349 the time before I went. something happened to 00:39:32.349 --> 00:39:35.030 the girl when AJ was not in the room or was away 00:39:35.030 --> 00:39:38.070 doing something involving either Kelly putting 00:39:38.070 --> 00:39:40.429 something in her drink or taking advantage of 00:39:40.429 --> 00:39:43.769 her and she was very upset. So that's where AJ 00:39:43.769 --> 00:39:46.869 decided he wanted to quote unquote get Kelly. 00:39:47.789 --> 00:39:50.789 So that was the impetus for him to set him up 00:39:50.789 --> 00:39:52.530 with Fish and Wildlife. That was the vendetta 00:39:52.530 --> 00:39:54.750 you referenced. Exactly. Classic right? Yeah. 00:39:57.119 --> 00:39:58.960 inevitably, in a human relationship, somebody 00:39:58.960 --> 00:40:00.719 is going to get pissed off at somebody else. 00:40:01.019 --> 00:40:04.000 And that person who gets pissed off, if you're 00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:05.880 into criminal activity, you don't want a friend 00:40:05.880 --> 00:40:08.699 who's pissed off at you because they will turn 00:40:08.699 --> 00:40:11.420 on you. But then why would you put in another 00:40:11.420 --> 00:40:14.760 woman? Well, what do you mean? Why would you 00:40:14.760 --> 00:40:16.840 put in another woman? Well, gee, let's put something 00:40:16.840 --> 00:40:20.679 in her drink. Yeah. So risky. Yeah, super risky. 00:40:20.699 --> 00:40:23.340 And we're going to talk about that because we're 00:40:23.340 --> 00:40:25.019 running out of time. So we're going to break 00:40:25.019 --> 00:40:27.480 it into two episodes and pick this up next week. 00:40:28.440 --> 00:40:31.260 Please connect with us online. We've got a website 00:40:31.260 --> 00:40:35.920 which is naturesecretservice .com. If you go 00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:39.199 there, you can leave a comment. You can drop 00:40:39.199 --> 00:40:41.519 us a question that we'll try to answer in a future 00:40:41.519 --> 00:40:44.980 episode. We also have a Facebook and Instagram 00:40:44.980 --> 00:40:48.260 account. So please follow us and remember this 00:40:48.260 --> 00:40:49.960 is our first episode. So if you make comments 00:40:49.960 --> 00:40:56.530 about us, be nice. And we will see you next time. 00:40:57.769 --> 00:40:59.610 Nature's Secret Service is written and produced 00:40:59.610 --> 00:41:02.329 by me, Ed Newcomer, and is co -produced by the 00:41:02.329 --> 00:41:05.510 DHTV team here at California State University 00:41:05.510 --> 00:41:08.070 Dominguez Hills. Follow us on social media and 00:41:08.070 --> 00:41:10.369 connect with us online at naturessecretservice 00:41:10.369 --> 00:41:10.989 .com.