Okay people listen up here we go. My name is
Ed Newcomer I'm the host of Nature's Secret Service
the podcast that puts you in the room with the
men and women of wildlife law enforcement This
is episode 1 of season 1 our very first episode
and we have a fantastic guest today in fact The
first time I thought about doing this podcast
I knew immediately who my first guest was going
to be and I'm very happy to welcome Marie Palladini
Marie is a professor at California State University
at Dominguez Hills in Carson, California, where
we're coming to you from today. But for 29 years,
she was a special agent with the US Fish and
Wildlife Service. So welcome, Marie. Thank you
for being on our very first episode. Hi, Ed.
It's great to be here. Thank you for having me.
Yes, I am very excited. And I think we should
actually say right off the bat, how we know each
other, because I think it's going to be really
obvious to listeners pretty quickly that we're
friends. Yes, I think it will. So how do we know
each other? OK, I can start with that very easily.
So I was the senior resident agent in the US
Fish and Wildlife Service office in Torrance,
California for a few years before I retired.
And prior to that, I was the training officer.
And I was fortunate enough to train new agents,
which in an indirect way, I think, prepared me
for my second career as a professor. I really
enjoyed meeting the new agents and teaching them
the law and the ropes and some investigative
tricks. So when Ed Newcomer came to our office
in Torrance over 20 years ago, he was a... very
eager new agent, and I was very happy to have
him and train him. And I use the word training
very loosely because he didn't need a lot of
training. Ed had a background in the administration
of justice. He had been a judge, an administrative
judge, and he had also... been to law school,
obviously. So we had a common connection about
the law and how to conduct investigations and
which we're going to talk about today. He was
very, very eager to work on undercover cases,
which I had had an extensive background in. So
he I took him under my wing and and we went from
there. So that's how we met. And like I said,
it was over 20 years ago and we've maintained
a professional and personal friendship through
those years. Definitely. And so you were my training
officer, but then you also became my boss. That's
right. And when you say you were the senior resident
agent for Southern California, I think we called
them RACs then, resident agent in charge, you
actually were in charge of all of Southern California.
So you oversaw the LA office and our San Diego
office as well, right? Correct. All of Los Angeles,
Southern California, the border between Mexico
and California. where wildlife does cross. And
then I actually, for a short period of time,
was responsible for parts of the Central Valley,
Fresno. But then that changed when we had a reorganization.
But yes, I oversaw the agents and the wildlife
inspectors who worked at the International Port
in Los Angeles and at the border. So a huge geographical
area and a huge population. Border port, seaport,
airport, you name it. You had a huge responsibility.
You know, within the U .S. Fish and Wildlife
Service Office of Law Enforcement, I think Los
Angeles has always been considered one of the
busiest field offices in the country, so... Yes,
the major cities with the import -export responsibility
were always the busiest. Los Angeles, New York,
and Miami come to mind as being the three busiest
offices with U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service.
They had... large staffs, they had more special
agents than some of the posts. Some of the posts,
for example, for example, Missoula, Montana,
had one special agent for the whole state. Right.
So that's a little different area of responsibility
for the supervisors as well as for the field
agents. Right. Right. Yeah. You know, one of
the things I remember and we'll talk about what
is a special agent in just a second. But one
of the things I remember when I came and started
working with you is You were a working Supervisor
like what I mean by that is you were one of the
few supervisors I ever knew of that still insisted
on working a case at least one case Even while
you were supervising this huge district and I
have to tell you, you know I remember that every
agent in our office was super excited to help
you work on that case, that was Bobby Jin. And
you have so many stories, I know you're gonna
be on this podcast more than once, but you know,
you really set the example because you worked
while you were supervising, you still got out
there and you did surveillance, you did interviews,
you worked your own case, in addition to supporting
all of us and that was a great leadership example.
Well, thank you, that's quite a compliment. But
it's also somewhat of a reflection on my selfishness
because I liked being a supervisor, but I loved
being a criminal investigator. And I didn't want
to let go of some of the casework if I could
still manage to have one, what I consider complex
investigation, international investigation that
was assigned to me. And I knew I had the staff
of special agents to help me, but thank you for
that. And I really think as a supervisor, It's
not always possible, but I think it sends a leadership
message that might be different from that supervisor
who is really the administrator in the office
more so than the hands -on. So it's a personality
issue as well, but for me, that was the best
way to, quote unquote, train the new agents.
Maybe by example, do this or don't do this. You
know, kind of the do as I say, not as I do things
sometimes. But I think it really kept me in tune
with what the field agents were doing. It made
for great camaraderie. Absolutely. And that was
where I say part of it was selfish as well because
I loved working with the agents in the field.
Absolutely. I identify with that 100 % because
later after you retired the... Agent who took
over as the resident agent charge was Aaron Dean
and as you know, I eventually became her deputy
So I was supervising as well and like you I kind
of insisted on Maintaining a caseload. I wanted
to do my own cases because number one You're
selfish and you want to do the work right because
you like it and number two it's the only way
to really kind of stay up on what people are
doing and Lay after you retired there was a lot
of pressure from more senior managers for the
first -line supervisors, the resident agents
in charge, not to do casework. I mean, they were
really discouraged from it and kind of almost
scolded for doing it. So, for example, Erin,
the person who took over after you left, she
didn't feel like she could do it. She would get
scolded. And I used to trick her. I used to trick
her and say, I really need your help on this,
Erin. I've got to have you out in the field to
help me, just because I knew she wanted to get
out. And I knew she's a great agent. You wouldn't
want to waste that talent. That's a good example.
And there might have been some trickling down
from management that supervisors shouldn't have
caseloads. But I may have put those in the back
of my. brain somewhere and kind of forgot about
them, just to keep one case going. Not that I
was a rebel, but I kind of like to do things
my way when I believe they would have good results.
Absolutely, 100%. And you had the seniority to
pull that off because you had a career of 29
years, right? Yes. That's a phenomenal... you
know, service to the American people. And you
saw a lot and you experienced a lot in how the
U .S. Fish and Wildlife Service changed over
the years, how the law enforcement program grew
and changed. So a lot of the people you worked
for, the special agents in charge, had much less
experience than you did. That was, I guess, a
plus for me. Absolutely. Absolutely. Gave you
a little bit of the cred that allowed you to
do what you wanted to do. So in that regard,
let's make sure our listeners understand what
a special agent is for the Fish and Wildlife
Service. So, you know, tell us about it. What
is a Fish and Wildlife Special Agent? So I guess
I should start with what is Fish and Wildlife
Service. I can do that very, very briefly. The
United States Fish and Wildlife Service is a
agency within the United States Department of
Interior. And the Fish and Wildlife Service is
responsible for managing When I say domestic,
I mean species domestic to the United States.
I don't mean cats and things like that. Native
species. So we have the Fish and Wildlife Service
are responsible for enforcing the laws that relate
to the species within the United States. But
uniquely enough, also international species,
species that live in Africa or species that live
in Asia because of the Endangered Species Act
and an international treaty that the U .S. Fish
and Wildlife Service signed. with, I don't know
how many signature countries there are now. You're
talking about CITES. Correct. Which is the Convention
on International Trade in Endangered Species
of Fauna and Flora. Yes. But it's CITES, C -I
-T -E -S. That, I think the last time I checked,
Marie, I think it's around 185 countries are
signatories to that now. That's a lot. Yeah.
And basically, it's an agreement between the
nations to regulate and control wildlife, so
it's not commercialized, and so the species aren't
depleted. So with that umbrella understanding
of what Fish and Wildlife Service does, it does
other things in research and biology. But in
the Division of Law Enforcement, which is one
of the divisions within Fish and Wildlife Service,
there's a group of special agents and wildlife
inspectors that are charged with enforcing the
Endangered Species Act, the Lacey Act. I don't
know, 10 or 12 other statutes. I don't remember.
I think it's in the 20s actually. It might be
in the 20s now. I think so. So as you go back
29 years plus. But there are a lot of federal
statutes that protect wildlife and that the special
agents are responsible for investigating and
enforcing any violations of those laws. So there's
a very wide range of statutes that... can protect
migratory birds, endangered species that are
native to the United States, things like the
brown pelican or the bald eagle, which is no
longer an endangered species thanks to work done
through the United States Fish and Wildlife Service.
But there's also international species like the
rhinoceros, the tiger that the special agents
investigate. And depending where you're assigned,
you might focus on, the special agent may in
fact focus on cases that involve international
commercialization of wildlife versus the special
agent who may, as I said earlier, may be assigned
to work in Montana. And that special agent might
be working on wildlife hunting violations, wolf
violations, things that are, other species that
are protected. So that's kind of a. I don't know,
a schematic of what the job entails, but the
special agent is like every other special agent
in the federal government. And I say that because
the special agent is hired in a series, federal
government has certain series where they describe
a job which is tasked with investigating and
enforcing laws of that particular agency. So
basically I used to tell, my kids and their friends
when I would do presentations at their schools.
Basically, official wildlife special agent is
kind of like the FBI for animals. So it's an
investigative position with authority to carry
a firearm, to arrest. to conduct searches and
seizures, present to the grand jury. So a description
of a federal criminal investigator fits what
a special agent with the US Fish and Wildlife
does. Right. Sometimes in the trade, we called
ourselves 1811s, right? Yes. Because that series
you're talking about is an 1811. If you look
in the federal personnel system, a GS 1811 is
a special agent, regardless of what agency you
work for. That's right. That's exactly right.
I forgot about it. We had GS 1811 and it carries
a lot of benefits as well. One, I think, aspect
of being a GS 1811 that maybe Ed and I weren't
so thrilled about is there is a mandatory retirement
after at a certain age. I guess I could say at
57. I guess at that age the federal government
decided that you couldn't jump over fences and
kick in doors anymore. So they decided you have
to retire at 57. It's so funny you say that I
can't remember if you and I had this conversation
before but uh it's kind of true right you know
um I remember when I first came on you didn't
you didn't miss a beat if somebody said hey if
the gates locked we're gonna jump the fence but
I do remember the last year or two I was an agent
and uh went on a raid with you know US marshals
or our own agents. And at the briefing, they
said, Hey, if the gates locked, you know, we're
going to jump over. And I, and then in my head,
I thought, I'm not sure I'm gonna, you guys might,
you guys that aren't approaching 57. Well, you
know, I guess they're there. Maybe the decision
makers who said that were wiser than we know.
Maybe so. Maybe so. So, uh, yeah, an agent is
a plain clothes investigator, you know, is your
stereotypical. Fed, right? Exactly. So let's
talk now about your long career. I don't want
to, you know, dime you out as far as your age
is, but you were hired what year? I was hired
as a special agent in 1976. And how old were
you then? 23. Now everybody gets to know how
old you are. I was very young, 23. But it's important
because you were young and that's kind of unusual
for federal agents in general to be hired straight
out of college, right? You came on straight out
of college. Pretty much, yeah. So how did you,
as a young woman in the 70s, decide you wanted
to be a special agent for Fish and Wildlife Service?
How did that happen? You know, that's an interesting
question, Ed, because I studied criminology when
I was in college. My undergraduate degree was
criminology. There was no criminal justice degree.
And actually, criminology was a new area in the
70s of specialization. Pretty much before that,
I think it was sociology or political science.
And so I studied criminology. Where'd you go
to school? I went to school in Pennsylvania,
Indiana University of Pennsylvania, small state
school. Kind of a similar set up in Pennsylvania
as California has with state universities and
state colleges. Pennsylvania didn't have as many
of courses as California does, but it was a state
school. And we had adjunct faculty that taught
policing and investigative work, which I really
enjoyed. And when I studied criminology, I remember
speaking with one of my professors and saying,
I would like to be an investigator. I don't want
to put on a uniform every day, but I like connecting
the dots and figuring out what happens. I really
want to catch the bad guys. And I learned that
from some of the case studies we did in the classroom.
So when I studied criminology, we were very fortunate
at my school, just like I believe our students
are here at Dominguez Hills, we had an internship
program. So one summer between my junior and
senior year, I was able to intern at, are you
ready? The Pennsylvania Bureau of Investigations.
PBI. Nice. Like the state version of FBI. Correct.
Like I think Colorado has a Bureau of Investigation,
Georgia has one. Yeah. I didn't know Pennsylvania
had one. Yeah. But how does that lead you to
the United States Fish and Wildlife Service?
So what happened was I got a bigger and better
taste of investigations and I was sure that's
what I wanted to do. Got it. So when I graduated
from school I took a test. with the federal government.
I'm like, well, I'm going to go for it. So I
took a test back then. You have to take a test.
And it was called the Treasury Enforcement Agent
Exam. So I took that. I did very well on it.
And then I just went to Washington, DC, because
I had a family member who lived there. And I
thought, well, I'm going to look for a federal
job, maybe US Customs back then, or DEA. So I
actually got an interview. I was interviewing
with the US Customs Service. I'm pretty sure
that's who it was, the predecessor to what we
have. under DHS now and the person in she was
interviewing me the HR lady and she said you
know you have great credentials you do have some
experience from your um from your internship
three months she said US Fish and Wildlife Service
is recruiting and she said this they're looking
for women agents because they're trying to balance
out their new concept of being criminal investigators
rather than federal gay management agents. So
they had just gone through a restructuring where
they were looking, they, Meaning Fish and Wildlife
Service, they were looking for criminal investigators
versus gay wardens that wanted to be federal
agents. So they were trying to expand and do
more criminal investigations, international cases.
So I said, well, I don't really know much about
them. So she told me about him I researched and
I was so excited because I don't know this is
really going back but the very first Earth Day
was when I was a senior in high school and I
started believing that I was becoming an environmentalist,
but I didn't really take that with me to college.
It was just kind of a concept, a way of life,
where we're becoming more aware of pollution,
of littering, of our air, and global warming,
things that we didn't really know a lot about
back then, but it was kind of an eye -opener
for people that were, you know, in... Young young
under 20s high school kids. We had a little group
where we went and picked up trash So it was kind
of you know predecessor being an environmentalist,
right? So when she told me about US Fish and
Wildlife Service I said well that sounds like
something I would really be interested in because
I grew up in Western PA I spent time in the outdoors
with my cousins my family just a little side
my family and my cousin's family walk kind of
grew up together and each one of my sisters had
a cousin her age, but I was the only one that
had a boy cousin my age. So I used to hang out
in the woods with him. We'd run in the creeks.
We'd play combat. We'd do all this stuff that
kind of exposed me to the outdoors more than
I probably would have with my sisters, so to
speak. But I really enjoyed it. I mean, I guess
it's the best way to put it. Did I ever think
about being a gay more? Probably not. But I really,
really believed in the mission of the Fish and
Wildlife Service when I learned about it. So
that's what happened. I went for an interview
at Fish and Wildlife after that wonderful lady
referred me to them. And I got lucky because
they were putting together a new class. And I
waited a little bit, but it wasn't very long.
It was probably within a year and I got hired.
That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Timing is everything,
right? It is. It is. And, you know, this is mid
70s, so law enforcement in general was a heavily
male dominated profession. Do you even know,
like, what How many other women before you had
been hired to be special agents for fish and
wildlife, specifically for fish and wildlife?
For fish and wildlife, when I was hired in 1976,
I thought about this the other day, there were
four women special agents that had been hired.
Wow. Before you? Yeah, before me, right. And
I think when I actually started, there were three.
One of them quit. She didn't like it. So I was
one of four at the time I got hired. I imagine
and this is probably a topic for a whole other
episode is I can only imagine that there was
probably some resistance among some of the men
in the in the Fish and Wildlife Service about
bringing on women. Probably. And it probably
took some serious. Yeah. The courage to to like
stick it out and do it and and be good at it.
Yeah. You know, it was it was a time period where
Like you say, law enforcement in general, criminal
investigations, was pretty much male -dominated.
The FBI hired its first woman agent in 1973.
So just a few years before. So the other federal
agencies started to follow, which is why, to
her credit, the HR woman, I'm sure she told other
people as well, that the focus right then was
to try to diversify the force to get some women
in. And so that's what I did. She just happened
to think I was a fish and wildlife kind of person.
I don't know, but she sent me there, which was
great. Yeah, it certainly worked out. And, you
know, the timing of it, as you mentioned, kind
of that era, you know, Clean Water Act was signed
during this time, became law, the Endangered
Species Act became law. So there was kind of
this environmental wake up call in the United
States. I remember as a kid, even I don't think
it was early 70s. you know, there was a river
in Ohio that caught on fire. I remember, I think
it's the Cuyahoga. I remember that really vividly
seeing that on news and in my little, you know,
young person's brain, I'm like, how can a river
be on fire? And I think that was indicative of
the damage that our country had done to its environment.
And so anyway, that kind of leads me to the next
thing, because Endangered Species Act enacted
in 1973 in the form that we know it today and
one of the first species listed among the first
species listed was the American alligator. And
we're going to talk about alligators today because
one of your very first really cases of significance
involved American alligators, which I don't think
most people even think about today because they're
pretty common now. They're still interestingly,
I checked on this before I came here today, they're
still listed as threatened. But it's not because
they're actually endangered. So the way the Endangered
Species Act work, as you know, but just for our
listeners, if an animal is listed under the ESA
as endangered, it means it is at immediate risk
of becoming extinct. If it's listed as threatened,
it means it's at risk of becoming endangered.
So there's kind of these different levels of
protection. But as far as the law goes, The prohibitions
about what you can do to an endangered or threatened
animal are the same. It's just the penalties
that vary but anyway, alligators are still listed
as threatened which surprised me but it turns
out the reason why is because they Have such
a similar appearance to the American crocodile
which is endangered and at risk of extinction.
So by keeping them on the Endangered species
list as threatened now it gives them it gives
enforcement and the government an opportunity
to extend protections to the crocodile which
Yeah, I never thought of that. I was an agent
and similarity of appearance similarity of appearance
Yeah, so but back in in tell us what what was
the situation with the American alligator when
you became an agent well when I became an agent
the American alligator was listed as endangered
and when it happened Historically, so this was
in the 70, you know, maybe 20 30 years before
that was the American alligator had been hunted
and The skins had been sent overseas and it was
a very much a fashion commodity which it still
is today but it Handled way differently now,
but during that time period people were wearing
alligator boots alligator belts women had handbag
So it was a very popular commodity to have in
the leather industry all over the world all over
the world and Basically, you know from the United
States alligator population to the skins being
sent to France and Italy and Japan even to be
made into clothing materials or, anyway, apparel,
the apparel industry. So it was very popular.
And also, you've got to think about where alligators
live. So they live in the, their habitat is in
Louisiana and Florida, and there was a population
in Louisiana of Would say poachers for lack of
a better word who could make some money from
actually killing alligators and Selling the skins
and that's kind of what was happening when I
became a new agent the awareness of the extent
The demise of the alligator from the poaching
became came to the forefront of the Fish and
Wildlife Service So they had conducted and started
investigations into well, who's actually poaching
these? How is this network working? Right. So
remember as I said earlier in 1974 maybe 73.
I'm not sure the exact year Couple years before
I was hired the focus of fish and wildlife expanded
from game management agent to criminal investigator
So this was an opportunity to actually conduct
an investigation Into commercialization of one
of our species that lived in the United States
and an international I guess conglomerate of
smugglers, poachers, and enterprise, a money
-making operation, which Ed, you know Ed, and
we know throughout the years, that's really usually
the root of all these cases that we investigate
is about money. Yeah, and it takes on this extra
level or layer of importance because we are not
talking about some good old boys who are going
out and shooting a few alligators for fun, you
know, the classic poacher. What we're talking
about are people who are involved in a fairly
complex criminal enterprise that's ongoing with
multiple layers. So you've got the poachers who
are then selling to distributors who are then
selling on to the next level, ultimately to people
who are shipping them overseas. And so it becomes
that's how that can really cause a threat to
an entire Species right because once that commercialization
kicks in Can wipe them out, right? Yes So almost
did a couple of our other species. So yes, it's
not it's not limited to the American alligator
and it still goes on today, you know You know
the totoaba fish in Mexico the you know sea cucumbers
are under threat now Native tortoises and turtles
in the southeast are now under threat. So yeah,
it's it's it's a It can be a problem, but it's
interesting because certainly all of the biologists
of the Fish and Wildlife Service and the state
agencies deserve much credit for the recovery
of the American alligator or the bald eagle or
whatever. But I think the unsung heroes of species
preservation and protection and recovery are
law enforcement because when someone like you
gets involved in does a good case and takes out
some of these people who were involved in these
ongoing criminal enterprises. It gives the species
breathing room, right? It gives them a chance
to recover and for the biologists to do their
job. And a lot of times I don't think people
realize the role law enforcement plays in not
just protecting but recovering species who are
about to become extinct. Yeah, that's a good
point. And I think probably it's the nature of
law enforcement culture itself, too. Yeah. Law
enforcement agents special agents investigators
do their job want to make sure that the Bad guy
for lack of a better description and the whole
chain of bad guys are taken down and then move
on to the next species or the next case The recovery
just kind of comes with it, which is great And
that's an interesting point too because one of
the nice things about working in the Fish and
Wildlife Service was the collaboration between
the criminal investigators and the biologists
and the research entity to Save species pretty
much right? Yeah, but their habitat Exactly.
But I think you're right. I think agents, I certainly
didn't walk around thinking I was saving species,
right? I think the best agents are cops first.
We're a little biased, but yes. They don't like
criminals, period, right? And if they weren't
a fish and wildlife agent, they'd be some other
sort of cop. You know, your example's the perfect
example. We're interested in law enforcement
and but within law enforcement fish and wildlife
was attractive to you. That was exactly the same
for me How lucky were we totally I mean think
about being a law enforcement person or criminal
investigator in another agency It would have
been fine, but the reward of actually thinking
that you're making the world a better place.
And you are with other types of crime as well,
but just from nature. I mean, you know, step
outside one day and well, maybe not now, but
in certain times in in our history and just look
outside, go to a national park, just appreciate
nature. And I think worldwide. We have a really
small impact on that and small is better than
none. Yeah, and I think sometimes it's it's bigger
than we think it is I think, you know a lot of
the world looks to us because we have we do have
the Endangered Species Act we do protect species
that are not native to the United States as well
as native species and I think I think a lot of
the world does look to us as a leader in in law
enforcement for wildlife so let's get back to
alligators now, so We've got this situation now
in the mid 70s where, uh, alligators populations
are crashing in part because of like unchecked
poaching and this commercial pressure. So, uh,
how do you get involved in this? You, you, not
only were you hired as a young person to become
an agent, but pretty quickly you got recruited
to go into the special operations unit. So you
didn't you? Correct. Yeah. Tell us what SOU is.
Okay, so SOU stands for Special Operations Unit
and when I actually when I applied for the job
as a special agent I told the interviewers and
I don't know why, but I did. I think I had, part
of my research, I basically said that I wanted
to work undercover. I told them that. But I said
I would be assigned wherever they were gonna
send me because I wanted the job so badly. So
before I went to the Academy, I did not know
where I was gonna be assigned. And then while
we were at the Academy, I was lucky. I got assigned
to Washington, D .C. and in the S .O .U. unit,
so special operations unit, which at that time
was very small. I think there were four or five
special agents working only undercover. And just
a little piece about that unit, I don't know
how much it's changed since then. A lot. But
those particular agents were based in headquarters,
but they were giving assignments all over the
country. So for example, we'll do the alligator,
but just to Give one example, let's say that
we had information that somebody maybe was selling
illegal walrus ivory that had come from Alaska
and was being sold internationally or in interstate
commerce. I may have been called to go to be
a buyer for that ivory. So it just, it depended
on the niche and that type of thing, you know,
versus maybe there was a hunting operation that
needed somebody to go in and just get some intelligence
on what they're doing because there was information
that they were poaching and... Selling parts
of bears or something. So maybe I would go in
on that with another agent So it just depended
the field agents in those regions did it as well
But sometimes there were more long -term cases
where the undercover agents would do it. So I
wanted to do that and I think I know this now.
I don't think I knew that then what I'm gonna
say I think part of the reason that it was so
attractive to me is I believed it would be easier
than knocking on doors and saying, I have a warrant
for your arrest and looking up at the person
versus here I am, gee, I don't know anything
about alligators. Will you tell me about them?
So to me it was an easier segue from being a
college kid to being a professional. So you said
that looking up at somebody and saying, we do
have to point out how tall are you? Five went
on a good day. Right. So diminutive frame. Yes.
So that's what happened. So I told them I wanted
to do and I was very enamored by what the undercover
agents were doing because I knew about it and
I learned more about it at the Academy. So what
happens is the Fish and Wildlife Service have
a the leaders of each region, they're called
the special agents in charge. And back then there
were eight regions. So every year, twice a year,
the special agent in charge, the SAC, they would
have this meeting. So they had a meeting right
around the time I got out of the academy and
it happened to be in Washington D .C. where I
was stationed. And they had the meeting and they
were talking about one of the things on the agenda
was we have to do something about this. Operation
that's going on where alligators are being poached
the poachers are being paid They're couriering
them to different places in the country and they're
being shipped overseas. Okay, and Hark We have
an informant named AJK row from Louisiana who
is coming forward We busted him before he wants
to help us because he has a vendetta against
one of the couriers. Uh -huh and so they sat
around the table and Dave Hall who was a special
agent in charge in New Orleans at the time in
Louisiana Said well, we just have a bunch of
new agents that come out of the Academy and we
need to send AJ in with his girlfriend Because
he usually brought a friend with him when he
brought the skins to New York which is what he
was doing and Why don't we have Marie Palladini
go with him because she fits the role? Whatever
that was. Right. Right. The role might have been
just you were a woman. Right. I think that's
what it was. Which is actually a deadly set of
skills to have. To have that as your gender doing
undercover work, you're often not suspected.
Because there were a couple hundred other people
that couldn't have done it, right? So that's
what happened. And I guess from what Dave Hall,
who believed in me, Told me after he got a lot
of pushback around the table interesting. Yeah,
she's new She doesn't know anything something
happens. This is dangerous Because they were
you know, they were career criminals These were
not people that were just you know, like you
said earlier poach one alligator and sell it
I mean there were thousands of alligators being
transported. Yeah between the bayou in Louisiana
to this particular case to the middle man, a
guy named Jack Kelly in New York. Wow. Okay.
And then Jack Kelly worked with the, I guess
the the larger entity, the corporation, a guy
named Jack Kloppish, who owned he actually owned
a leather business. And they were sending the
alligator skins in with other leathers over to
Japan and France. to be made into products. So
I imagine this broader SOU investigation was
targeting those guys, right? Correct. Yeah, because
they want to take out the higher level and kill
the whole operation. Exactly. And apparently
the intelligence they had was that Kelly and
or one of his colleagues would drive down to
Louisiana, pick up skins and then take them back
up to New York and then ship them out of New
Jersey. I see. Out of the terminal there. And
sometimes AJ, the informant, would drive them
up himself with a friend, usually a girlfriend,
and they would drive from New Orleans, which
is 1 ,500 miles from New Jersey all the way up
to New York, carrying stinky alligator skins
up to New Jersey and then ship them out of the
country and meet with Kelly and AJ would get
paid. And interestingly enough, alligators...
Don't know how long they are now. They might
be bigger now, but they they would range about
five feet in length Okay smaller yeah, and and
AJ would take them skin them out and salt the
hides and then measure them and the the The price
would be about forty to fifty dollars per linear
foot Wow, so AJ stood to make Decent amount of
money and then at each stage along the way, of
course the price goes up So it was a worthwhile
venture I guess for somebody that lived in the
bayou and new alligators and you know had a kind
of a poaching Lifestyle, so I mean, you know,
those are the people they're recruited because
they have the skill set to go get the animal
right and then as the skill set gets more sophisticated
moving up in terms of Finding buyers and how
to ship and how to smuggle the price goes up.
Yeah, exactly Yeah, and AJ had a bad situation
happen one time when he brought the skins to
Kelly Kelly was a Probably still is now Kelly's
the guy in New York Kelly is the middleman in
New York that I was assigned to work with AJ
to actually investigate, get enough information
as an undercover agent of his operation and how
they were sending the skins overseas. So buying,
repackaging, and sending. So, Kelly, I guess,
Kelly was the kind of guy, he was kind of a,
I don't know, hoodlum, so to speak, and he basically
upset AJ on one of the trips because AJ brought
his quote unquote girlfriend with him, not me,
the time before I went. something happened to
the girl when AJ was not in the room or was away
doing something involving either Kelly putting
something in her drink or taking advantage of
her and she was very upset. So that's where AJ
decided he wanted to quote unquote get Kelly.
So that was the impetus for him to set him up
with Fish and Wildlife. That was the vendetta
you referenced. Exactly. Classic right? Yeah.
inevitably, in a human relationship, somebody
is going to get pissed off at somebody else.
And that person who gets pissed off, if you're
into criminal activity, you don't want a friend
who's pissed off at you because they will turn
on you. But then why would you put in another
woman? Well, what do you mean? Why would you
put in another woman? Well, gee, let's put something
in her drink. Yeah. So risky. Yeah, super risky.
And we're going to talk about that because we're
running out of time. So we're going to break
it into two episodes and pick this up next week.
Please connect with us online. We've got a website
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by me, Ed Newcomer, and is co -produced by the
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