Today on the Left of Old North, we're joined
by a new and rising progressive leader in North
Carolina's legislature, state representative
and Pete Buttigieg doppelganger, Phil Rubin.
Appointed in January 2025 to represent Wake County's
40th district after the passing of Representative
Joe John, Phil is a former federal prosecutor
and special deputy attorney general. He graduated
magna cum laude from the University of Georgia
and earned his J .D. and M .A. summa cum laude
from Duke Law, where he served as the editor
in chief of the Duke Law Journal. Phil brings
a legal rigor and fierce commitment to fixing
democracy. An attorney, a dad, and a proud advocate
for constitutional law, public safety, and voting
rights. Phil's joining us to discuss some of
the hot button issues of this session. from the
rushed amendment -free budget to the latest power
grab over election oversight. So, Phil, welcome
to the show. Thank you. I'm thrilled to be here.
Thanks for having me on. So, I will say for the
listeners, you know, Phil and I actually kind
of knew each other. Well, not really knew each
other, but we met during his whole... One week
election campaign. I guess kind of what exactly
happened and how did you end up in the state
legislator? Yeah, I if you had asked me, you
know, the beginning of January, what I'd be doing
right now, this would not have been on my bingo
card, even though it was something I've actually
always wanted to do. since I was a kid. But in
North Carolina, when a member of the General
Assembly steps down or leaves office in any way,
the county executive committee of the party that
they're a member of replaces them. And, you know,
as the listeners may know. It was really sad
in District 40. Joe John, who had served the
state for 50 years and had represented this district
for just over eight, started his fifth term.
But in about mid -January, he announced his resignation
due to his cancer diagnosis and he actually passed
away. Gosh, I think it was three days after he
announced his resignation. Three days later.
Yeah. Yeah. Really sad. And, you know, he is
just a hero of North Carolina. He was an appellate
judge. He was an executive branch leader. He
was a member of the state house, served the state
for half a century. And so there was a very quick
process. That process can take up to a month.
I think the statute gives you 30 days. But as
you know, the margins in the house with the supermajority
are so slim. there was really a need to move
quickly. So that process, I mean, I decided to
put my name forward. It was like late a Thursday
night. We got everything out like 1 a .m. Friday
morning. The boat was Tuesday and I was sworn
in that Wednesday. It's a wild week. Yeah, really
wild week and quite the change in my life. But
like I said, one that I kind of always wanted
to do, but I wouldn't have necessarily guessed
that that was going to happen. January 2025.
Now, CJ was there for your election pitch. I
was not, as were neither were many of our listeners.
What do you think personally put you over the
edge of the other candidates in your pledge to
the county executive committee that allowed you
to become the representative? Yeah, great question.
First of all, the other candidates were great.
There were two other candidates who ran and they
were both fantastic and really dedicated folks.
I think what helped me, I think there were a
couple of things. One was, I think that I was
able to translate my background really well to
what we need right now. And I ran as an advocate
and I've tried to serve as an advocate that we
need voices who will stand up and fight for our
principles and advocate. And that has been my
career. My career has been spent in courtrooms
standing up. and articulating you know strong
arguments that are really things we've put time
into thinking through how to put it and how to
convince people and so i came to folks and i
said look that's what i'm going to do if you
let me serve in the seat i'm going to be an advocate
and i could tell from the conversations i had
with people that that landed um so that was one
thing the second was that i had those conversations
i was able to get face to face with a lot of
the folks who had a vote and in the process.
You know, not everyone was able to reach during
that rush process, but I certainly in some way
sent a message to every single person and I got
on most of their doorsteps and I talked to many
of them. And then and then the third thing was
we had a candidate forum that the party put on.
And that was that Sunday night. And I just I
felt like that went really well. And that was
actually when I when instead of me reaching out
to people, I started getting calls out of nowhere
from people after that night. It was that Sunday
night that like voters started calling me. Yeah.
Quick follow up to that. So if you think that
and you're probably right that your pitch as
being an advocate was what kind of puts you over
the edge. Do you think that that's because people
are hungry for that sort of advocacy based representation
in our General Assembly? Do you think that there's
that we're being starved out a little bit there?
I think, you know, one thing I've found actually
since I've been in the General Assembly is I
think there's a lot of tremendous advocates in
the building. They advocate in different ways.
And so I think it's been cool to see the different
skill sets because advocacy can take a lot of
different forms. And that's one thing that is
really on display. So I definitely don't think
like only I can come in and advocate because
there are a lot of great voices, including sort
of my style of stand up and articulate an argument.
There are some folks that are just astoundingly
good at that already. And so I'm adding to the
weight that we have there. But it's not like
there wasn't any. so i i but i do think to your
to your broader point like people are hungry
for that i think because right now sadly that's
in north carolina that's the main thing we have
because we don't have the ability to pass laws
and we should democrats got a majority of the
votes for state house and state senate statewide
we should have the ability to pass laws but we
don't and so we're gonna have to articulate a
vision that isn't through the course of passing
legislation right now You know, because I am
a nerd, I watch basically every single session.
And there was something that you said a couple
weeks ago that I wanted to kind of bring up because
I thought this was a really good way of phrasing
things, but also just a really good thing to
point out. You know, a few weeks ago, I forget
which bill it was talking about. Maybe it was
an anti -DEI bill. I cannot remember. But you
mentioned that, you know, the other side of the
aisle has tried to pass the buck a lot, has tried
to put blame on Democrats and everything. But
in this paraphrasing, as you put it, look who's
been in charge for 15 years. So I was wondering,
like, what can you kind of tell us about, one,
that sort of mindset that you kind of came into
that with? Yeah. So, you know, when at the opening,
you talked about me advocating for democracy
and like, I think I want to step back to like
the fundamental belief I have in democracy is
that democracy is really a form of accountability.
That the whole idea of a democratic republic
is that your representatives are accountable
to the people and the people can decide they're
doing a great job. I'm going to keep them or
they're doing a terrible job. I'm going to replace
them with these other people that have a different
plan. The reason I bring that up as part of this
conversation is in order for that to work, people
have to be able to replace their representatives
if they're not happy. But they also have to be
able to see and tell whether their representatives
are doing a good job or not. And those things
have really broken down in North Carolina. And
I've sort of watched how the people that are
making the decisions act really surprised at
the consequences. of their own decisions um and
like a really i mean it's the the vote the vote
you were talking about was the budget and it
was it was like it was fascinating so we debated
the budget twice um you know and as folks know
in north carolina each bill is read three times
the first reading kind of doesn't count that
just gets it in the door but the second reading
is where we really do the vote but then there's
actually a third reading on the budget we actually
debated it both times And they were back to back
days. And during the second reading, one of the
representatives on the Republican representative
stood up and asked another member a question
on their side. And it was like it was, you know,
our reading scores for eighth graders are below
average and the math scores are below average.
And who's been held? I still remember he got
so fired up, like who's been held accountable
to this? Who's been fired for this? who's been
made to pay for this and like the other members
like no one i don't think anyone's been held
accountable and like it really i wish i had done
it right in the moment but i said i was thinking
about it that night i was like it just doesn't
sit right with me and so during the debate on
third reading i stood up and i called back to
that and i was like it's you you're accountable
for it you're the one who has starved the education
system for 15 years you have taken billions of
dollars out of our schools you have handed it
to private schools and with no accountability
whatsoever and then you're going to stand up
and have the gall to act like some teacher should
be fired for what you did and and you know i
don't mean that to be i don't know overly confrontational
but like i do expect people to take responsibility
for the consequences of their actions especially
when during that same budget debate another member
of the republican party made a big point to stand
up and say we have a philosophy of cutting your
taxes and cutting regulation and all of this
stuff we're doing is on purpose it's thoughtful
it is strategic and my response to him was like
yeah i agree it is and look what's happening
we're 48th in the country in education funding
we're 50th in the country in healthcare affordability
like there have been some things that they've
had some successes on and they'll take credit
for it great but like take credit for it All
of it. Yeah. Yeah. And they can't muster all
that bluster and not expect to get any blowback
at all. That's right. And so speaking of that
budget bill, Democrats did try to add funding
for for school lunches, for more education, for
equitable housing, all sorts of things in this
budget bill. And nearly all of them got shot
down like systematically. formulaically shot
down by Republicans, some with just a simple,
like, don't vote on this, like, no argument,
really, just don't vote on this. So what, what,
in your view, is how, sorry, what's your view
on how budgets should actually serve the people
of North Carolina? This isn't to take away from
the fact that Phil actually posted a bunch of
really great Instagram videos about this. Go
follow him on Instagram and Blue Sky and a bunch
of other places. But very informative. One of
the first on the platform to say what was going
on within the General Assembly. Reminded me a
little bit of like Jeff Jackson style videos.
But so I don't know. We'll see. We'll see if
you can get 1 .4 million followers here pretty
soon. I'm 500 people of the way there. So whatever.
But I appreciate the plug. That's how you get
there. Everybody's got to start somewhere. That's
right. That's right. I started with basically
zero a few months ago. So like, here we are.
But yeah, so the budget, what I want people to
know is how broken it is, like fundamentally.
And what I mean by that is like there's all these
artificial limits on the budget process before
we even got to that floor debate where all the
amendments were just being like batted away because
like the Republicans get in a room basically
and write the whole budget. And but they set
these limits. They set a funding target. And
that is the amount of money that you are allowed
to spend on the budget. And no amendment at any
stage of the process can alter that. They also
put money, you know, everything's capping into
different areas like general government, which
is the appropriations committee I sit on. But
then there's like justice and public safety and
K -12 education. An amendment can't move money
from like K -12 education. It can't move money
from like, say, general government to K -12 education.
That breaks the rules. Not allowed. not for a
good reason that's just a rule that was put in
there to like keep you from messing with the
budget different colors of money right i mean
exactly right like there's no like this is all
completely artificial you can't mess with revenue
like you can't do anything to raise revenue when
they set that so like you know those are not
in order either and so and it's weird because
the budget actually contains some of those things
they're just decided by not the body they're
decided by a small like subset of people who
get to make all those decisions and no one else
even has like it's not just a matter of like
getting the votes to do it you don't even have
a mechanism to get the votes to do it and that's
actually like i think kind of shocking to folks
when i tell them that and then the second piece
is like how little time the rest of us get. I
mean, I remember I walked in. So the first time
you see anything from the budget is in your appropriations
subcommittee. And so I came into general government
appropriations on the day the budget is going
to be released, was given 400 pages of documents.
as i as the meeting started in fact they would
not give them to us until nine o 'clock on the
dot which is when they were released not an hour
before not hey you can stay up late reading this
and get ready but the meeting is starting right
now and here are the documents and that was the
meeting in which i had the only chance during
committees to offer any amendments to that budget
um and it was interesting too because like you
know they both they also sort of make clear they're
they're congenial about it but like they make
clear that like you know we're not gonna take
your amendments but um they they we went through
the budget presentation and then they were like
well we can either just go ahead and send this
forward or if you really want to we can adjourn
and do amendments and come back in a few hours
and i was like i'm gonna put you through that
exercise yeah um so You know, I did offer three
amendments relating to elections in that meeting.
But then, you know, we also got basically less
than a day with the final total budget before
we had to vote on it. It's in no way would any
sane sort of thoughtful process work that way.
But that is how budgeting works in North Carolina.
A lot of the recommendations for when people
are in a minority party, specifically from like
Indivisible, is talking about how, yeah, put
them through the rigmarole. Make them do every
single part of the process, even if it slows
it down. Because what are you losing? All they're
losing is time on their hands. If you're going
to lose a vote anyway, make them work for it.
So I appreciate that you're committed to doing
that. Yeah, I'm a proceduralist by nature, too.
And we're going to follow the rules. we're going
to do the processes we're supposed to do. And,
you know, it's going to take a little time, but
you know, when you're spending $33 billion of
the people's money, I think you can put the time
in. Yeah. I'm sure it's been a bit of a whirlwind
to say the least. What is the like one most surprising
or interesting thing that you've seen so far
aside from just how kind of at times broken.
Our system probably falls under the category
of how broken the system is. But I don't know
if folks realize this. You know, the legislature,
we have a long session. That's the odd year.
And then the short session, which is the even
year, because it's a part time legislature. Like,
we're not just always there considering legislation.
And it's really designed to run from January
to June, end of June during the long session.
It never actually does end by the end of June,
but it's supposed to do that. And so what that
means is. The only chance you have for the entire
year to propose a bill basically requires you
to get the idea to the bill drafting people at
the legislature by the beginning of March and
you have to file the bill by the beginning of
April. If you don't do that for most topics,
your next chance to do that is in May of the
following year at the short session. And so I
don't think folks realize like how rushed that
process is. And it's really it's it's. It's unfortunate
because, and this is less of my, like, this is
a like schemey thing than I'm accusing the budget
stuff of being. This is more just like the way
a part -time legislature works causes you to
have to rush legislation through and just throw
it on the pile and just fling ideas at the bill
drafting folks and hope it works out because
you have to meet these really fast deadlines.
So I was sworn in January 29th. I had like. five
weeks to get any ideas into bill drafting that
I wanted drafted for the whole year. Wow. And
that has bad consequences. I've got a lot of
ideas since then, and they'll just have to wait
for a while. No guarantee that, I mean, it seems
like if you continue to do your job well, right,
that you'll get reelected. But like, imagine,
you know, a year down the road, you don't get
reelected. A lot of that preloaded, I guess,
mental work. kind of flies out the window, especially
if somebody's elected in your district that doesn't
necessarily want to do those things. That's right.
Yeah. One of the downsides of how short the session
is in these really rushed deadlines is you can't
do legislating the way that I think would be
the best possible way, which is you have this
idea. So you pull together a bunch of stakeholders
and you get them together and you brainstorm
it and you identify the problems and you identify
the interests. And then you kind of get a bit
of a coalition together. And then you go to bill
drafting with the results of that and they draft
a bill. And then maybe you do a few revisions,
but you've got your bill and then you file it.
And then when you do that, you've kind of already
got a coalition lined up around it. You can do
that over multiple years. But like, you know,
for me coming in, it was like, now I got this
idea. I got this bill out and then I'll build
the coalition around it later. And, you know,
it's fine. We can do stuff with it, but it's
not the best way to do it. And that's really
a shame because I just think we can get better
legislation out of that. And it's something I'm
going to try and do for the short session with
some of the ideas that I'm working on. Sounds
reasonable, which is unfortunately why most Republicans
will not pick it up. So there's that. And I only
bring this up solely to annoy Adrian. So I know
that you, like myself, are a big West Wing fan.
so adrian loves to give me all sorts of shit
for this in the general assembly have who would
you say is kind of most like uh say josh lyman
or sam seaborne or president bartlett oh my gosh
yeah i thought i thought you were going to ask
what i got on another podcast which was who am
i most like which i was ready for but how who
other people are like to this question um only
because it's so different than those characters
like a legislature works so differently that
you almost don't have the ability for legislators
to fit those those boxes they're all like principles
they don't report to anyone they they operate
independently even though they operate you know
in a caucus another team um so you don't have
um that ability but i will say one thing is i
have really enjoyed watching leader reeves speak
on the floor and and in that sense i'll sort
of make a bartlett comparison because like you
know on the west wing like he's it's not just
that he's a good speaker he's the president he's
a good speaker you know martin sheen's a good
actor but um yeah it it's more that he's like
capable of this wide range from like you know,
super calm, technocratic to like, you know, showing
appropriate emotion and being able to do that
off the cuff. I mean, that is that has been a
real treat. That has been really a fun part of
being in the legislature. So 2026 is around the
corner. It's these election cycles feel earlier
and earlier every year. What are the fights that
you think we should be paying closest attention
to in the run up to that? And also. How can people
help you continue doing the work that you're
doing? So on the fights that I think people should
be paying attention to, the obvious one are the
court races. The path to fixing these problems
in North Carolina runs through fixing partisan
gerrymandering. And to anyone who is listening
and isn't already bought in on this, this whole
idea that people should be accountable in a democracy.
Republicans won 47 and a half percent of the
votes statewide for House and they got 59 percent
of the seats. It breaks democracy. It breaks
it. And it's the reason that they're completely
unaccountable on any of this stuff. It's because
they literally are unaccountable. They don't
have to be held accountable by the people. They'll
have control no matter what they do. Right. And
it's the courts that can save us in that. And
so that is going to require. changing judges,
frankly. It's going to require retaining the
judges that we have on, Democrats have on the
Court of Appeals and the Supreme Court. And frankly,
as we go towards 2028, it's going to require
accountability for the justices who attempted
to steal an election. And they're up for re -election,
so we're going to have a lot to talk about with
that. But I also want to emphasize one other
thing that's important to me, which is we need
to focus on those elections, and I think that's
really important. and taking House seats and
taking Senate seats, because a couple more seats
changes everything, even though it's not a majority,
because it means that the veto is basically bulletproof
at that point. And that changes. It doesn't just
mean the governor can veto legislation successfully.
It means that, but it also means they have to
negotiate it with us. And just governing gets
better when you have those kind of things. The
last part of that is. that we should think of
the election as as a whole unit as well like
we need to talk about the entire atmosphere of
what has happened in north carolina over the
past 15 years and why that has happened and what
the results of that and basically any metric
you look at north carolina has declined over
the last 15 years it's really really unfortunate
um and i think we back to the accountability
point we need to get accountability for that
and they need to be held accountable for that
and if we can create that that feeling that true
feeling that there needs to be accountability
for what's gone wrong in north carolina then
that will help in all of these elections and
so it's the way to come across the board and
then to your last thing on how folks can help
me i am running again for the seat or to i guess
sort of running for the first time but running
to continue being in the seat i would love support
obviously running for election requires votes
it requires volunteers and it requires money
i would be grateful for any and all of those
from folks my website is phil rubin p -h -i -l
-r -u -b -i -n dot com um it's got all the information
on it all the links to social media and i am
trying to make sure that i'm both a voice and
an aid to our candidates that are running in
the frontline, what we call frontline districts,
the ones that are close and really hard to fight
for, hard to win. And so I'm going to be raising
money for those seats. I'm going to be helping
those candidates any way I can, because that's
what we have to do to make North Carolina better.
And thank you so much for being on with us today
on the Let the World North. And like you said,
make sure to go follow him on all the social
media if you can. Find ways to support the campaign.
whether it's phone calling, volunteering on the
ground, or giving some cash. And while you're
at it, make sure to throw some our way so we
can keep doing these interviews and keep bringing
more and better high -quality content your way.
We're going to, I'm sure, be talking more as
we get closer to 2030 about gerrymandering and
about fair election laws and about redistricting,
which we'll see how that plays out. But for the
time being, From North Carolina's 40th House
District, Phil Rubin, thank you so much for coming
to talk to us today. We really appreciate the
work you're doing and keep it up. Thanks for
having me and thanks everyone for listening.