WEBVTT

00:00:04.999 --> 00:00:08.660
Welcome back to the Left of Old North. We're

00:00:08.660 --> 00:00:12.660
your hosts, Adrian and CJ. And today we're coming

00:00:12.660 --> 00:00:17.600
to you on Memorial Day. We, at the back half

00:00:17.600 --> 00:00:19.600
of this episode, are going to have a great interview

00:00:19.600 --> 00:00:24.100
with Chris Cooper, the WCU professor and author

00:00:24.100 --> 00:00:29.420
of Anatomy of a Purple State. And I had a lot

00:00:29.420 --> 00:00:33.130
of fun with that interview. Oh yeah, same. I

00:00:33.130 --> 00:00:34.710
definitely would love to have him back on here

00:00:34.710 --> 00:00:37.130
at some point. I feel like he will come back

00:00:37.130 --> 00:00:40.149
on at some point. Cause we, we had a great conversation.

00:00:40.710 --> 00:00:43.409
Um, he made some, he hedged his bets a little

00:00:43.409 --> 00:00:45.390
bit, but he made a couple of predictions and

00:00:45.390 --> 00:00:48.229
I, and I want to see, uh, how those pan out at

00:00:48.229 --> 00:00:51.149
some point, you know, whether it's a year from

00:00:51.149 --> 00:00:54.189
now or 10 years from now, we've got to catch

00:00:54.189 --> 00:00:56.609
up with him and see, and see how things shake

00:00:56.609 --> 00:01:00.090
up, you know? Yeah. And then, you know, if he's

00:01:00.090 --> 00:01:04.379
wrong, we'll just badger him. And just let him

00:01:04.379 --> 00:01:07.980
know. We'll run him off like Ann Seltzer got

00:01:07.980 --> 00:01:15.200
run off in Iowa. When that poll came out, it

00:01:15.200 --> 00:01:17.859
was either going to be the biggest upset in history

00:01:17.859 --> 00:01:23.680
or she is going to be ran out of town. Moving

00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:28.209
on, because I will... Yeah. And I mean, he did,

00:01:28.209 --> 00:01:30.390
he, he did make the disclaimer that he's not

00:01:30.390 --> 00:01:34.030
really a predictions guy. So we kind of nudged

00:01:34.030 --> 00:01:37.510
him into it, but you know, overall great interview.

00:01:37.609 --> 00:01:41.299
We had a lot of great. and he had a lot of good

00:01:41.299 --> 00:01:44.920
advice for both people who are in politics and

00:01:44.920 --> 00:01:47.379
people who study it and want to know more. And

00:01:47.379 --> 00:01:50.680
you can definitely get a really good overview.

00:01:51.040 --> 00:01:54.159
It's a great primer. Again, the book's called

00:01:54.159 --> 00:01:56.359
Anatomy of a Purple State. It came out just last

00:01:56.359 --> 00:02:00.709
year, right before the election, actually. We

00:02:00.709 --> 00:02:02.469
talk a little bit about that. So go make sure

00:02:02.469 --> 00:02:05.709
and watch the episode where we get to interview

00:02:05.709 --> 00:02:09.289
him. Well, this episode. Excuse me. I'm also

00:02:09.289 --> 00:02:13.069
thinking about the fact that this is one week

00:02:13.069 --> 00:02:16.509
where we actually released two full -length episodes.

00:02:17.370 --> 00:02:21.409
So we released an episode last Friday because

00:02:21.409 --> 00:02:24.650
there was just too much to talk about. There

00:02:24.650 --> 00:02:26.830
was way too much that happened this week to talk

00:02:26.830 --> 00:02:30.990
about. We had to give the people what they wanted,

00:02:31.090 --> 00:02:33.310
and by give the people what they wanted, I mean

00:02:33.310 --> 00:02:37.169
just kind of rant for a little bit about what

00:02:37.169 --> 00:02:39.849
was going on. Well, it wasn't too badly structured,

00:02:40.009 --> 00:02:42.289
I don't think. I think we only had to skip over

00:02:42.289 --> 00:02:44.909
one section, which we'll cover a little bit more

00:02:44.909 --> 00:02:48.389
today. And if you want to know more about what's

00:02:48.389 --> 00:02:50.949
the craziness that's been going on in North Carolina

00:02:50.949 --> 00:02:53.370
this week, go and check out that bonus episode.

00:02:53.810 --> 00:02:57.939
It's titled The Eyes of the Storm. It basically

00:02:57.939 --> 00:03:02.379
just talks about how we are experiencing a lot

00:03:02.379 --> 00:03:06.360
of intermittent weather, so to speak, in the

00:03:06.360 --> 00:03:08.620
world of politics right now that is actually

00:03:08.620 --> 00:03:12.099
probably going to manifest itself in a way that

00:03:12.099 --> 00:03:16.819
we may not be able to foresee yet. But it's only

00:03:16.819 --> 00:03:20.240
getting worse right now. And we're not exactly

00:03:20.240 --> 00:03:24.689
being left with a lot of protections. from the

00:03:24.689 --> 00:03:27.490
storm of politics and also from literal storms

00:03:27.490 --> 00:03:30.870
that may be coming our way during this next hurricane

00:03:30.870 --> 00:03:33.469
season. So strap in, folks. Make sure you're

00:03:33.469 --> 00:03:36.849
prepared. Moving on. So again, today is Memorial

00:03:36.849 --> 00:03:41.030
Day. And as you're listening to this and maybe

00:03:41.030 --> 00:03:43.310
as you go throughout your day, all I would ask

00:03:43.310 --> 00:03:46.349
is that regardless of how you feel about the

00:03:46.349 --> 00:03:49.669
Department of Defense or what America does overseas

00:03:49.669 --> 00:03:53.729
with its military, just remember that From the

00:03:53.729 --> 00:03:56.530
beginning of this nation to the current day,

00:03:56.689 --> 00:04:00.150
a lot of good men and women have died protecting

00:04:00.150 --> 00:04:03.469
the freedoms that we now get to enjoy. And I

00:04:03.469 --> 00:04:05.610
think that we just got to make sure that we're

00:04:05.610 --> 00:04:07.750
honoring them for that. Speaking not only as

00:04:07.750 --> 00:04:11.469
somebody who served myself, I think that we owe

00:04:11.469 --> 00:04:13.750
it to a lot of people to make sure that we're

00:04:13.750 --> 00:04:16.730
remembering them today, keeping them in our thoughts.

00:04:18.139 --> 00:04:20.259
You don't necessarily have to thank some random

00:04:20.259 --> 00:04:24.560
dude in uniform for his or her service, but I

00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:27.399
don't know. Those people believed in something

00:04:27.399 --> 00:04:29.660
along the way, regardless of how you feel about

00:04:29.660 --> 00:04:33.800
it, you know? I do want to also kind of take

00:04:33.800 --> 00:04:36.779
a moment and extend my thanks. I do have some

00:04:36.779 --> 00:04:38.879
folks in my family who are in the military, and

00:04:38.879 --> 00:04:41.720
I've heard some of their stories and whatnot,

00:04:41.939 --> 00:04:45.959
and I know that it's very much a huge sacrifice

00:04:45.959 --> 00:04:50.860
of, you know, Your time, your health, and possibly

00:04:50.860 --> 00:04:54.300
your life, depending on the various circumstances

00:04:54.300 --> 00:04:58.100
at the time. And, yeah, I just want to say thank

00:04:58.100 --> 00:05:01.879
you to everyone who did serve. Yeah. And are

00:05:01.879 --> 00:05:07.000
currently serving. Yeah, exactly. Pause one second.

00:05:07.220 --> 00:05:10.399
Yeah. And, you know, thank me for my service.

00:05:10.560 --> 00:05:15.420
I appreciate that. You're welcome. Yeah. No,

00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:19.800
I... Always look at that as it's honestly, if

00:05:19.800 --> 00:05:22.600
you want my honest take on this, it is often

00:05:22.600 --> 00:05:26.680
a little bit embarrassing for people to do it

00:05:26.680 --> 00:05:29.540
in public. And I'm sure that anybody who has

00:05:29.540 --> 00:05:31.240
family members that have served would probably

00:05:31.240 --> 00:05:33.860
hear the same thing from them. But like when

00:05:33.860 --> 00:05:36.980
some random person who maybe sees you in your

00:05:36.980 --> 00:05:40.399
uniform or finds out through conversation that

00:05:40.399 --> 00:05:43.240
you served in some capacity, they go like, you

00:05:43.240 --> 00:05:44.980
know, thank you for your service. It's always

00:05:44.980 --> 00:05:48.990
a little bit like. you know like i i did radios

00:05:48.990 --> 00:05:53.889
i wasn't on like i wasn't on the front lines

00:05:53.889 --> 00:05:58.329
risking my life in the same way so uh you know

00:05:58.329 --> 00:06:01.629
it we take it as it comes i and and uh but one

00:06:01.629 --> 00:06:04.009
thing that i've always not always but one thing

00:06:04.009 --> 00:06:06.610
that i've responded with uh when it's somebody

00:06:06.610 --> 00:06:09.329
who has a good humor a good sense of humor is

00:06:09.329 --> 00:06:11.870
i'll say in response thank you for paying your

00:06:11.870 --> 00:06:17.860
taxes It's true, though. Yeah, it is. I mean,

00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:23.019
the military has a budget of, what was it, $997

00:06:23.019 --> 00:06:27.579
billion, a bit of which comes from taxes. A bit

00:06:27.579 --> 00:06:33.839
of which, give or take, right? Yeah, I have often

00:06:33.839 --> 00:06:37.079
taken Memorial Day to talk about how bloated

00:06:37.079 --> 00:06:40.540
our military budget is. Uh, even when I was serving,

00:06:40.600 --> 00:06:42.220
this was the kind of thing that I would talk

00:06:42.220 --> 00:06:46.420
with my NCOs and fellow airmen about because

00:06:46.420 --> 00:06:49.860
it's, it's really something that just never seems

00:06:49.860 --> 00:06:55.680
to go down ever. And it really raises the question

00:06:55.680 --> 00:06:59.220
of why it's nearly a trillion dollars to run

00:06:59.220 --> 00:07:01.740
a military that's not even currently in wartime.

00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:05.560
Yeah. So, you know, we've, we've currently got.

00:07:05.980 --> 00:07:08.399
So many contracts with so many different private

00:07:08.399 --> 00:07:11.579
corporations that basically just take all this

00:07:11.579 --> 00:07:14.779
money for R &D and turn around and make halfway

00:07:14.779 --> 00:07:18.160
decent jets like the F -35. And I only say that

00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:20.379
because it's like a bit of an in -joke. It took

00:07:20.379 --> 00:07:22.899
15 years for this thing to even get off the ground,

00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:25.500
and it had so many development issues. From all

00:07:25.500 --> 00:07:29.720
accounts, it's a damn good fighter jet. So, there's

00:07:29.720 --> 00:07:32.569
that. But what's going to be interesting, too,

00:07:32.689 --> 00:07:37.089
is I think that as we move forward with trying

00:07:37.089 --> 00:07:40.269
to recreate the left, trying to recreate the

00:07:40.269 --> 00:07:42.209
Democratic Party, I think that that's something

00:07:42.209 --> 00:07:44.149
that Democrats need to push a little bit harder

00:07:44.149 --> 00:07:48.670
on. Yeah, as far as like kind of, what's the

00:07:48.670 --> 00:07:52.170
word, kind of reassessing things and kind of

00:07:52.170 --> 00:07:55.980
holding feet to the fire on. Making sure all

00:07:55.980 --> 00:07:58.620
this is spent responsibly. Yeah, just trying

00:07:58.620 --> 00:08:03.500
to rein it in a little bit. Even if it's not

00:08:03.500 --> 00:08:07.579
going to matter, I think voting against the spending

00:08:07.579 --> 00:08:11.220
bill, if it's a ridiculous amount, is a good

00:08:11.220 --> 00:08:14.180
thing to do. But that's my personal two cents.

00:08:14.519 --> 00:08:17.680
And I know that some Democrats would heavily

00:08:17.680 --> 00:08:25.189
disagree with me. And that's okay. Most definitely

00:08:25.189 --> 00:08:27.850
think about whenever I see just how much the

00:08:27.850 --> 00:08:30.350
military budget is, is how much we're spending

00:08:30.350 --> 00:08:33.129
and then how much the next country is spending.

00:08:33.250 --> 00:08:36.190
You know, I looked it up earlier as we were preparing

00:08:36.190 --> 00:08:41.230
for this and we're in first place that $997 billion

00:08:41.230 --> 00:08:45.450
and China is in second place with 300 some odd

00:08:45.450 --> 00:08:49.009
billion dollars. So a third of what we got, right?

00:08:49.129 --> 00:08:52.669
Yeah. We could cut our budget literally in half

00:08:52.669 --> 00:08:56.350
right there. still be ahead we'd still be outspending

00:08:56.350 --> 00:09:01.509
them by over 100 billion dollars yeah and i understand

00:09:01.509 --> 00:09:06.129
that you know a lot of you know kind of america's

00:09:06.129 --> 00:09:09.490
influence i guess lies in its military might

00:09:09.490 --> 00:09:12.490
yeah you know a lot of our cultural identity

00:09:12.490 --> 00:09:15.690
too if you think about it yeah oh yeah no most

00:09:15.690 --> 00:09:19.429
definitely i mean we have we're the only real

00:09:19.429 --> 00:09:23.070
country that has military bases in other countries

00:09:23.070 --> 00:09:26.549
like on the scale we do. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

00:09:26.649 --> 00:09:30.009
It's not even close. Yeah. I mean, it's all strategic.

00:09:30.090 --> 00:09:33.909
It's, you know, obviously to have places to launch

00:09:33.909 --> 00:09:37.950
operations from if need be, or, but it's also

00:09:37.950 --> 00:09:42.029
just a, our way of saying, Hey, look how powerful

00:09:42.029 --> 00:09:45.809
we are. You fuck with us. We can be there on

00:09:45.809 --> 00:09:48.269
your, at your door in like two seconds. Right.

00:09:48.789 --> 00:09:51.409
And what I think is interesting, too, is, I mean,

00:09:51.429 --> 00:09:53.330
you bring that up, right? We talked a little

00:09:53.330 --> 00:09:56.990
bit before the show, but I think that where Democrats

00:09:56.990 --> 00:10:01.009
tend to fail in some aspect, right, is that they

00:10:01.009 --> 00:10:03.730
can't all get on the same page about whether

00:10:03.730 --> 00:10:07.350
to support military might or to try and rein

00:10:07.350 --> 00:10:09.789
it in. There are a lot of Democrats that support

00:10:09.789 --> 00:10:12.269
making sure that the military gets however much

00:10:12.269 --> 00:10:14.929
money it wants. And then there are some Democrats

00:10:14.929 --> 00:10:17.350
that really want to make sure that we're reining

00:10:17.350 --> 00:10:20.269
in on the military spending. And though he's

00:10:20.269 --> 00:10:23.090
not a Democrat, technically, but he is on the

00:10:23.090 --> 00:10:25.710
left. Bernie Sanders has fought for that forever.

00:10:26.330 --> 00:10:30.110
And I tend to agree with him in a lot of aspects

00:10:30.110 --> 00:10:34.330
about decreasing our military spending. Because

00:10:34.330 --> 00:10:38.389
it really is out of hand. We're not even touching

00:10:38.389 --> 00:10:41.370
on the fact that they've failed their audit.

00:10:41.870 --> 00:10:47.129
nearly every year for the past decade. So money's

00:10:47.129 --> 00:10:48.929
just going poof, and we don't know what happened

00:10:48.929 --> 00:10:52.750
to it. I just think, you know, wherever that

00:10:52.750 --> 00:10:58.289
money went, what could we as a country do with

00:10:58.289 --> 00:11:01.830
that money if it wasn't going towards DOD? You

00:11:01.830 --> 00:11:05.129
know, we could have free school lunch for every

00:11:05.129 --> 00:11:08.129
kid. You know, we could, honest to God, solve

00:11:08.129 --> 00:11:11.879
homelessness. We could, you know. increase our

00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:15.399
soft power around the world. Whoa, whoa, whoa,

00:11:15.539 --> 00:11:20.279
whoa, whoa. Slow your roll. The minute you started

00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:23.200
talking about feeding children, every Republican

00:11:23.200 --> 00:11:25.639
stopped listening. I know, it's radical, right?

00:11:25.820 --> 00:11:30.480
How dare I have basic empathy and care about

00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:33.600
kids? No, but who's going to pay for it, CJ?

00:11:34.019 --> 00:11:38.240
I mean... Who's going to pay for it, CJ? I think

00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:42.840
I would rather have my taxes go to a hungry child

00:11:42.840 --> 00:11:47.559
than a bomb. For children. Yeah. Sad but true.

00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:50.320
Look, all I'm saying is that one of the most

00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:54.799
well -known soldiers of the modern era was literally

00:11:54.799 --> 00:11:58.460
on camera multiple times bragging about sniping

00:11:58.460 --> 00:12:02.679
children. We need to figure out where our priorities

00:12:02.679 --> 00:12:07.190
lie. And think about what actually is helpful

00:12:07.190 --> 00:12:12.730
for the country. You know, again, the school

00:12:12.730 --> 00:12:15.529
lunch thing, solving homelessness, taking some

00:12:15.529 --> 00:12:17.409
of this money and actually improving Veterans

00:12:17.409 --> 00:12:21.549
Affairs, improving the VA. But they're taking

00:12:21.549 --> 00:12:23.350
some of this money and, like I said a second

00:12:23.350 --> 00:12:25.490
ago, improving our soft power around the world.

00:12:25.730 --> 00:12:28.950
You know, we don't have to always be, you know,

00:12:28.950 --> 00:12:32.059
guns a -blazing. or threatening to be able to

00:12:32.059 --> 00:12:34.919
have guns a -blazing at a moment's notice. There

00:12:34.919 --> 00:12:39.860
are other ways to spread our influence and kind

00:12:39.860 --> 00:12:45.919
of secure allies and our positioning on the world

00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:49.779
stage. And that's where cuts to things like USAID

00:12:49.779 --> 00:12:55.480
are so bad. Aside from the massive amount of

00:12:55.480 --> 00:12:58.169
death that comes with cutting them. You know,

00:12:58.169 --> 00:13:00.610
there's also the element of we lose a little

00:13:00.610 --> 00:13:02.549
bit of our standing. See, but you don't make

00:13:02.549 --> 00:13:05.029
money from those things. And you do make money

00:13:05.029 --> 00:13:09.629
from funding war. You do make money from building

00:13:09.629 --> 00:13:12.690
bombs and manufacturing guns and bullets and

00:13:12.690 --> 00:13:16.370
airplanes and tanks. Yeah, if you're Lockheed

00:13:16.370 --> 00:13:19.529
Martin. Yeah, that's why some of the top lobbyists

00:13:19.529 --> 00:13:22.470
in Washington, D .C. work for military armament

00:13:22.470 --> 00:13:27.149
firms and for military industrialists. They're

00:13:27.149 --> 00:13:30.309
paid very, very well to do their job. I mean,

00:13:30.330 --> 00:13:32.529
you know, and this isn't, all this isn't to say,

00:13:32.570 --> 00:13:35.289
you know, just, you know, to hell with the military.

00:13:35.330 --> 00:13:36.950
We don't need one. Obviously we do need one and

00:13:36.950 --> 00:13:40.330
we do need a strong one, you know? Yeah. Because

00:13:40.330 --> 00:13:42.649
there are threats out there that we should be

00:13:42.649 --> 00:13:46.389
actively trying to defend against. Yeah. Yeah.

00:13:47.269 --> 00:13:50.049
Defend against and, you know, anticipate their

00:13:50.049 --> 00:13:53.789
moves and all that stuff. But there's also other

00:13:53.789 --> 00:13:56.909
problems that we can solve at home for a fraction

00:13:56.909 --> 00:14:00.389
of what we spend on this. And I think I agree

00:14:00.389 --> 00:14:03.309
with that wholeheartedly, especially on like

00:14:03.309 --> 00:14:05.529
what you were kind of saying. We need to get

00:14:05.529 --> 00:14:09.629
on some kind of some kind of a same page. Right.

00:14:09.809 --> 00:14:13.110
Because if Democrats are out there talking about

00:14:13.110 --> 00:14:14.929
how we need to have the most lethal military

00:14:14.929 --> 00:14:17.110
force in the world while they're running for

00:14:17.110 --> 00:14:21.090
office. then they kind of just sound like Republicans

00:14:21.090 --> 00:14:24.009
a lot of the time. And that's not to say that,

00:14:24.009 --> 00:14:29.049
you know, blue good, red bad. No, blue mistaken

00:14:29.049 --> 00:14:34.370
on their base. Blue not reading the room. Because

00:14:34.370 --> 00:14:36.169
I do think that there are a lot of Democrats

00:14:36.169 --> 00:14:40.990
who want a strong military, but to say that they're

00:14:40.990 --> 00:14:43.809
the most, to say we need to have the most lethal

00:14:43.809 --> 00:14:46.230
fighting force in the world, that's kind of a,

00:14:46.389 --> 00:14:49.409
like... almost a lead into just saying we need

00:14:49.409 --> 00:14:51.750
to spend more on the military. Cause that's,

00:14:51.750 --> 00:14:53.190
that's the kind of language that Republicans

00:14:53.190 --> 00:14:56.549
have used in the past. Oh yeah. No, it is very

00:14:56.549 --> 00:14:59.970
much so. So we may be seeing like, and I think

00:14:59.970 --> 00:15:02.730
that that's what turned a lot of leftists and

00:15:02.730 --> 00:15:05.490
progressives away from like the Kamala Harris

00:15:05.490 --> 00:15:08.929
campaign, because she was saying things like

00:15:08.929 --> 00:15:13.649
that. And ultimately what people heard was I'm

00:15:13.649 --> 00:15:16.409
going to. just do exactly what we were doing

00:15:16.409 --> 00:15:19.210
before. And, and if they want to increase the

00:15:19.210 --> 00:15:21.549
military budget, I will sign off on that sucker.

00:15:21.629 --> 00:15:24.850
No, no questions asked. So we're making this

00:15:24.850 --> 00:15:28.509
a, I'm CJ is not making this big thing. I'm making

00:15:28.509 --> 00:15:32.549
this, I'm sorry for, for, for dragging him feet

00:15:32.549 --> 00:15:35.309
first into it. But I, this is something that

00:15:35.309 --> 00:15:37.350
I've been very passionate about, especially in

00:15:37.350 --> 00:15:41.450
the last 10 years or so. And I try to talk about

00:15:41.450 --> 00:15:44.529
it on Memorial Day, not because I'm trying to

00:15:44.529 --> 00:15:49.110
disparage soldiers, airmen, sailors. But we really

00:15:49.110 --> 00:15:52.389
need to think about how the cost of war is more

00:15:52.389 --> 00:15:55.889
than just dollars and cents. And increasing the

00:15:55.889 --> 00:15:58.970
military budget only gives us more leeway in

00:15:58.970 --> 00:16:02.110
the future to throw bodies at the problem. And

00:16:02.110 --> 00:16:05.899
people talk about, well... We have more sophisticated

00:16:05.899 --> 00:16:09.000
technology. We can use drones. We can use airstrikes

00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:11.139
and all these other things. But at the end of

00:16:11.139 --> 00:16:14.820
the day, I'm not just talking about men and women

00:16:14.820 --> 00:16:17.759
that are lost in the line of duty. I'm talking

00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:22.039
about 22 veterans per day that lose their lives

00:16:22.039 --> 00:16:26.159
to suicide. Because being in the military is

00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:30.500
extremely stressful in a lot of ways, speaking

00:16:30.500 --> 00:16:34.090
personally. And when you are behind a monitor

00:16:34.090 --> 00:16:38.350
watching a black and white screen and seeing

00:16:38.350 --> 00:16:41.190
a bomb go off and knowing that it took people's

00:16:41.190 --> 00:16:43.570
lives on the other end of it, that affects you.

00:16:43.629 --> 00:16:46.149
Not saying that that happened to me or that I

00:16:46.149 --> 00:16:49.509
felt that. But this is the kind of thing we need

00:16:49.509 --> 00:16:52.070
to take into account. That a lot of these military

00:16:52.070 --> 00:16:55.549
members are still people. And the cost of war

00:16:55.549 --> 00:16:59.029
is more than just lowering the budget. Like the

00:16:59.029 --> 00:17:03.039
charge of... trying to lower the military budget

00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:06.960
is more than just arguing for like fiscal responsibility

00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:12.299
it's it's that let's try to steer away america's

00:17:12.299 --> 00:17:15.000
culture from being one funded directly for war

00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:19.099
and instead like cj was advocating for that's

00:17:19.099 --> 00:17:22.079
directed in funding for people for diplomacy

00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:26.180
because at the end of the day you know no matter

00:17:26.180 --> 00:17:30.109
what the war is no matter what country the war

00:17:30.109 --> 00:17:33.309
or what countries are involved in the war all

00:17:33.309 --> 00:17:37.470
wars really end up the same way it ends with

00:17:37.470 --> 00:17:39.390
a group of people in a room talking which is

00:17:39.390 --> 00:17:40.710
what they should have done from the beginning

00:17:40.710 --> 00:17:44.470
that's that's a really good point that's a really

00:17:44.470 --> 00:17:47.309
good point it's like at some point they're gonna

00:17:47.309 --> 00:17:50.190
be in i got that from episode doctor who see

00:17:50.190 --> 00:17:53.009
and i was gonna guess the west wing no no it's

00:17:53.009 --> 00:17:56.269
uh It's that Peter Capaldi episode of Doctor

00:17:56.269 --> 00:17:59.410
Who. It's really good. Definitely watch it. It

00:17:59.410 --> 00:18:02.849
may come from a British TV show, but it's true

00:18:02.849 --> 00:18:06.710
all the same. The only difference between diplomacy

00:18:06.710 --> 00:18:09.930
and war is that war just racks up a lot more

00:18:09.930 --> 00:18:14.589
bodies. Not trying to bring the mood down. Just

00:18:14.589 --> 00:18:17.349
something that I really feel like needs to be

00:18:17.349 --> 00:18:20.430
said, needs to be thought about during this day

00:18:20.430 --> 00:18:24.319
of remembrance for people that... died both again

00:18:24.319 --> 00:18:27.799
i mean i was listening to a bunch of old songs

00:18:27.799 --> 00:18:31.099
from the revolutionary war era and just thinking

00:18:31.099 --> 00:18:36.319
about how the men who fought the british um and

00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:39.839
i'm not talking about like the white protestant

00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:41.519
slave owners that were just trying to protect

00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:44.880
their monetary interests i'm talking about the

00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:47.480
farm boys that signed up because they felt like

00:18:47.480 --> 00:18:49.319
their rights were being taken away from them

00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:52.779
because they were they were being They were having

00:18:52.779 --> 00:18:55.079
British soldiers quartered in their homes. And

00:18:55.079 --> 00:18:56.720
if anything like that happened today, I would

00:18:56.720 --> 00:18:59.039
expect Americans to fight back against that.

00:18:59.220 --> 00:19:01.519
So we need to remember those folks and remember

00:19:01.519 --> 00:19:04.859
that the spirit of America is, for better or

00:19:04.859 --> 00:19:10.119
worse, integrally tied to our military history.

00:19:10.299 --> 00:19:12.500
Because that's how this country was born. And

00:19:12.500 --> 00:19:16.539
before we get to our interview with Chris Cooper,

00:19:16.740 --> 00:19:19.719
which is coming up here in a second. Something

00:19:19.719 --> 00:19:23.019
in the last few days that just happened that

00:19:23.019 --> 00:19:24.859
kind of ties into what we were talking about

00:19:24.859 --> 00:19:27.380
with him, actually. This consolidation of power

00:19:27.380 --> 00:19:29.440
within the North Carolina General Assembly and

00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:33.519
the right wing of North Carolina politics. The

00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:37.640
Supreme Court decided on Friday, of course, literally

00:19:37.640 --> 00:19:42.150
when... When we released the episode, so we couldn't

00:19:42.150 --> 00:19:45.690
even bring it up, they denied Democratic Governor

00:19:45.690 --> 00:19:48.650
Josh Stein's request to block new appointments

00:19:48.650 --> 00:19:51.789
to the State Board of Elections. What does that

00:19:51.789 --> 00:19:55.069
mean, CJ? Can you layman it down for us there?

00:19:55.430 --> 00:19:58.490
Yeah, so essentially it means that any appointments

00:19:58.490 --> 00:20:01.809
that the state auditor who was just given this

00:20:01.809 --> 00:20:05.589
power, any appointments that he makes are allowed

00:20:05.589 --> 00:20:08.960
to stand right now. while Stein's lawsuit is

00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:11.400
still going through the courts. And that is something

00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:14.519
that could take months to resolve, really. Yeah,

00:20:14.539 --> 00:20:18.779
if not years. And again, I want to remind everyone

00:20:18.779 --> 00:20:25.559
that this is the only state in the country where

00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:32.400
the state auditor has this ability. There's nothing

00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:36.160
in his job description that justifies this kind

00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:39.829
of power. And as we've said before, if this was

00:20:39.829 --> 00:20:48.049
Jessica Holmes, a Democrat, would the Republicans

00:20:48.049 --> 00:20:50.369
in the General Assembly have done this? Hell

00:20:50.369 --> 00:20:52.549
no. We all know they wouldn't. They know they

00:20:52.549 --> 00:20:54.930
wouldn't. We know and they know what this is.

00:20:55.049 --> 00:20:58.009
And again, it is a blatant power grab. That's

00:20:58.009 --> 00:21:00.490
it. How much do you want to bet if a Democrat

00:21:00.490 --> 00:21:04.869
wins the next state auditor election that they'll

00:21:04.869 --> 00:21:09.170
try to change it back? Oh. Uh, yeah, no, most

00:21:09.170 --> 00:21:11.470
definitely out. I'll bet a hundred bucks right

00:21:11.470 --> 00:21:15.289
here, right now. Um, I like, I like a sure thing.

00:21:15.490 --> 00:21:21.150
I like to say that, uh, on May 1st, uh, Bolyak,

00:21:21.329 --> 00:21:24.750
uh, the auditor was, you know, sworn in or was

00:21:24.750 --> 00:21:27.670
able to make these appointments, make these changes

00:21:27.670 --> 00:21:30.029
to the election board, which shifted it from

00:21:30.029 --> 00:21:32.490
a three, two democratic majority majority to

00:21:32.490 --> 00:21:35.210
a three, two Republican majority. Allison Riggs,

00:21:35.250 --> 00:21:55.450
in a dissenting opinion, said, quote, Yeah. Oh,

00:21:55.609 --> 00:21:59.170
she also said that this ruling... also as boy

00:21:59.170 --> 00:22:01.990
to proceed with using chairpersons of the 100

00:22:01.990 --> 00:22:04.509
county election boards beginning in late june

00:22:04.509 --> 00:22:10.009
yeah so keep that in mind that these may seem

00:22:10.009 --> 00:22:13.390
like small changes these may seem like changes

00:22:13.390 --> 00:22:16.890
that probably won't affect you directly but given

00:22:16.890 --> 00:22:20.470
a long enough timeline they absolutely will because

00:22:20.470 --> 00:22:23.289
these are the folks that decide whether elections

00:22:23.289 --> 00:22:29.500
get uh certified yeah this is How the elections

00:22:29.500 --> 00:22:32.759
are conducted. How many polling sites will be

00:22:32.759 --> 00:22:35.480
open in your area. What hours those are going

00:22:35.480 --> 00:22:37.920
to be open in the area. And keep in mind, right

00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:42.500
now, they're trying to make it a six -day voting

00:22:42.500 --> 00:22:45.339
period. If that. If they can get it lower, I'm

00:22:45.339 --> 00:22:48.180
sure they will. They want to make it a six -day

00:22:48.180 --> 00:22:51.700
early voting period. I mean, hell, there are

00:22:51.700 --> 00:22:54.259
Republicans in the General Assembly who want

00:22:54.259 --> 00:22:57.319
to make election day just a one -day thing. a

00:22:57.319 --> 00:22:59.960
one and done and that's it yeah so screw you

00:22:59.960 --> 00:23:03.240
if you can't get off on a tuesday yeah and again

00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:06.400
this is because as we said before they don't

00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:10.160
care about your ability to vote no and if voting

00:23:10.160 --> 00:23:11.759
didn't work they wouldn't be trying to take it

00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:14.660
away right right and with with these hundred

00:23:14.660 --> 00:23:18.240
county board of elections too like cj was saying

00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:21.119
um this this was something that happened in texas

00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:24.410
not too long ago that The governor, actually,

00:23:24.450 --> 00:23:29.410
real charmer, that one, decided that he would

00:23:29.410 --> 00:23:34.730
only allow for one early drop -off site in each

00:23:34.730 --> 00:23:36.829
county. And I may be misremembering something

00:23:36.829 --> 00:23:39.329
about that. Maybe it was only one in each precinct.

00:23:39.490 --> 00:23:42.869
But you've got to remember that some of these

00:23:42.869 --> 00:23:45.410
precincts, especially in Houston, Dallas -Fort

00:23:45.410 --> 00:23:48.650
Worth, San Antonio, some of these precincts have

00:23:48.650 --> 00:23:51.250
hundreds of thousands of people living in them.

00:23:51.369 --> 00:23:54.000
And maybe not hundreds. Tens of thousands, at

00:23:54.000 --> 00:23:56.460
the very least. And that's a lot of people to

00:23:56.460 --> 00:24:00.400
only have one drop box for. So all that to say,

00:24:00.500 --> 00:24:02.900
this is the kind of thing that Dave Bolliott

00:24:02.900 --> 00:24:07.700
could do, is create rules that specifically are

00:24:07.700 --> 00:24:12.500
designed to pull back voting rights. Just a little

00:24:12.500 --> 00:24:20.069
bit. Just within the rules. To stifle a voter's

00:24:20.069 --> 00:24:22.890
ability to actually go and vote. Exactly. It's

00:24:22.890 --> 00:24:26.190
trying to stifle those rights there at the margins.

00:24:26.809 --> 00:24:28.670
The thing is, once you get to those margins,

00:24:28.769 --> 00:24:31.390
you create new margins that you can then work

00:24:31.390 --> 00:24:33.509
in on, and then some more and more and more,

00:24:33.650 --> 00:24:37.809
and then it just collapses, closes. Until you're...

00:24:38.519 --> 00:24:41.740
One day voting, and it's only open from 10 to

00:24:41.740 --> 00:24:45.000
6, and you have to have three forms of identification

00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:49.119
on you, and you can't drop off for anybody else.

00:24:51.099 --> 00:24:53.980
I'm not messing around. I'm not pulling this

00:24:53.980 --> 00:24:56.059
out of my butt. This is all things that they

00:24:56.059 --> 00:24:59.720
have advocated for. One day voting periods, 10

00:24:59.720 --> 00:25:02.539
to 6. You can't drop off anybody's ballot for

00:25:02.539 --> 00:25:06.980
them. It's all these kinds of things. We may

00:25:06.980 --> 00:25:10.940
see them as individual pushes by the Republican

00:25:10.940 --> 00:25:14.079
Party, but at the end of the day, if they were

00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:15.859
actually to implement all of those, it would

00:25:15.859 --> 00:25:17.880
be one of the most restrictive voting practices

00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:21.079
in the world. Oh, yeah. I mean, we got to remember,

00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:23.740
the Republican policies may be awful and they

00:25:23.740 --> 00:25:28.299
may be stupid. The Republican Party, when it

00:25:28.299 --> 00:25:31.539
comes to strategy, is not necessarily dumb. No.

00:25:31.779 --> 00:25:33.880
There's a reason for all this. They have a plan.

00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:36.319
They know what they're doing. There's a reason

00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:38.720
they want to consolidate power in the NCGA. And

00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:41.019
that is because the General Assembly is what

00:25:41.019 --> 00:25:46.119
decides the district lines every 10 years. Right?

00:25:46.319 --> 00:25:49.960
That is state law. And who decided it was state

00:25:49.960 --> 00:25:54.180
law? I'll give you one guess. And who decided

00:25:54.180 --> 00:25:56.599
that it didn't have to be nonpartisan? I'll give

00:25:56.599 --> 00:25:59.019
you one guess again. I'm sure you'll get this

00:25:59.019 --> 00:26:02.160
one right too. And they want to make the governor

00:26:02.160 --> 00:26:07.089
powerless. They want to make the judicial branch

00:26:07.089 --> 00:26:10.849
just a rubber stamp for pretty much anything

00:26:10.849 --> 00:26:14.369
the General Assembly wants to do. And if you

00:26:14.369 --> 00:26:17.730
really look at like a macro level, this is essentially

00:26:17.730 --> 00:26:19.750
what the Trump administration is trying to do.

00:26:19.789 --> 00:26:23.710
But with the executive branch, Project 2025 is

00:26:23.710 --> 00:26:25.910
specifically geared towards making sure that

00:26:25.910 --> 00:26:30.170
the. executive branch is clothed in power that

00:26:30.170 --> 00:26:32.670
should belong to the judicial and the legislative

00:26:32.670 --> 00:26:35.309
branch but instead what they're trying to do

00:26:35.309 --> 00:26:38.450
even with their slim majority in the house is

00:26:38.450 --> 00:26:40.829
they're trying to basically just do whatever

00:26:40.829 --> 00:26:44.130
president trump wants to do put forward whatever

00:26:44.130 --> 00:26:46.910
kind of legislation he they know he will sign

00:26:46.910 --> 00:26:50.329
no matter what and instead of using the judicial

00:26:50.329 --> 00:26:53.369
branch as a check on that power even though it's

00:26:53.369 --> 00:26:55.769
not fully there yet We know it's not fully there

00:26:55.769 --> 00:26:57.509
yet because we've already seen them check on

00:26:57.509 --> 00:26:59.930
Trump's power a couple of times. So I'm not I'm

00:26:59.930 --> 00:27:01.809
not immediately saying that they're just, you

00:27:01.809 --> 00:27:05.789
know, shilling for Trump all the time. But we

00:27:05.789 --> 00:27:08.650
are not quite there yet. But what they want to

00:27:08.650 --> 00:27:11.349
do is to make sure that the judicial branch is

00:27:11.349 --> 00:27:15.430
instead a check on a citizen's right or the House's

00:27:15.430 --> 00:27:18.849
right to be able to to be able to petition the

00:27:18.849 --> 00:27:20.690
executive branch and say, what you're doing is

00:27:20.690 --> 00:27:22.970
wrong and we're going to sue or we're going to

00:27:22.970 --> 00:27:25.230
take you to court. And the Supreme Court, they

00:27:25.230 --> 00:27:28.470
want it to be there as a barrier to whatever

00:27:28.470 --> 00:27:31.369
the Trump administration wants to do. This is

00:27:31.369 --> 00:27:34.630
all in Project 2025. Again, I'm not pulling this

00:27:34.630 --> 00:27:38.069
out of my ass. We've been warning y 'all for

00:27:38.069 --> 00:27:41.190
a very long time now. And it's not my fault if

00:27:41.190 --> 00:27:43.930
you didn't read it. And here's the thing. It's

00:27:43.930 --> 00:27:46.529
not like this is something that's been a secret

00:27:46.529 --> 00:27:49.170
hidden plan. No, it's been out there in plain

00:27:49.170 --> 00:27:52.089
sight. They have been open about it. They put

00:27:52.089 --> 00:27:55.150
up a 900 page document or whatever the hell it

00:27:55.150 --> 00:27:59.009
is. Yeah. 900 pages. They've said what they want

00:27:59.009 --> 00:28:02.190
to do. And if you're listening to us and you're

00:28:02.190 --> 00:28:03.970
going, oh, well, that's just bullshit. You can

00:28:03.970 --> 00:28:06.529
go to the Heritage Foundation's website and find

00:28:06.529 --> 00:28:10.529
this. Yeah. It's not that hard. Yeah. But to

00:28:10.529 --> 00:28:13.220
talk a little bit more about. the General Assembly

00:28:13.220 --> 00:28:15.579
and to talk a little bit more about political

00:28:15.579 --> 00:28:18.819
imbalance or rather some balance in the state.

00:28:19.579 --> 00:28:22.019
Thank you for listening to us ramble on for the

00:28:22.019 --> 00:28:26.519
last 20 something minutes. But it is time to

00:28:26.519 --> 00:28:30.160
get on to our interview with the incredible Chris

00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:33.660
Cooper. Again, professor from Western Carolina

00:28:33.660 --> 00:28:37.420
University, author of Anatomy of a Purple State.

00:28:38.140 --> 00:28:40.059
We're going to introduce him now. I hope you'll

00:28:40.059 --> 00:28:42.279
stick around for the rest of the interview. Thanks

00:28:42.279 --> 00:28:44.059
for listening to us. Make sure to follow us on

00:28:44.059 --> 00:28:46.579
all the places. Do all the things. Subscribe

00:28:46.579 --> 00:28:48.640
to our Substack. Subscribe to our YouTube channel.

00:28:49.039 --> 00:28:51.599
We've got many more interviews coming down the

00:28:51.599 --> 00:28:53.279
pipeline that I'm sure you're going to be excited

00:28:53.279 --> 00:28:56.420
about. I know we are. Oh, yeah. So stick around

00:28:56.420 --> 00:28:59.519
with us on the left of Bold North. See you on

00:28:59.519 --> 00:29:07.299
the flip side. All right. We are here with Dr.

00:29:07.460 --> 00:29:10.470
Chris Cooper. Chris is the Madison Distinguished

00:29:10.470 --> 00:29:12.710
Professor of Political Science and Director of

00:29:12.710 --> 00:29:15.490
the Hare Institute for Public Affairs at Western

00:29:15.490 --> 00:29:18.150
Carolina University. His writing, commentary,

00:29:18.289 --> 00:29:20.950
and research have helped define how we understand

00:29:20.950 --> 00:29:23.609
North Carolina's fast -changing political landscape.

00:29:23.869 --> 00:29:26.869
And boy, does it change fast. From redistricting

00:29:26.869 --> 00:29:30.289
fights to voter behavior to the future of both

00:29:30.289 --> 00:29:32.410
parties in the state. He's also the co -author

00:29:32.410 --> 00:29:35.690
of The New Politics of North Carolina. and author

00:29:35.690 --> 00:29:39.390
of the recent Anatomy of a Purple State, a must

00:29:39.390 --> 00:29:41.630
-read for anyone who's actually serious about

00:29:41.630 --> 00:29:44.809
learning the politics of the Old North State.

00:29:45.130 --> 00:29:48.009
And it's quickly becoming a Bible for politicos

00:29:48.009 --> 00:29:51.630
here. So, you know, not to pump you up too much,

00:29:51.670 --> 00:29:54.250
but just so you know. If you've read an article

00:29:54.250 --> 00:29:56.549
about NC politics in the last five years, chances

00:29:56.549 --> 00:29:59.250
are he was quoted in it. So we're honored to

00:29:59.250 --> 00:30:01.329
have him on today to help us make sense of where

00:30:01.329 --> 00:30:04.680
we are, how we got here. And what is the path

00:30:04.680 --> 00:30:08.859
forward for the state as a whole? Chris, welcome

00:30:08.859 --> 00:30:10.680
to the Left of Old North. Thanks so much for

00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:12.059
having me. Looking forward to the conversation.

00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:14.480
And thanks for engaging with the state's politics.

00:30:14.619 --> 00:30:18.059
I appreciate your time. We definitely appreciate

00:30:18.059 --> 00:30:22.420
yours. And now that the 2024 election is over

00:30:22.420 --> 00:30:25.359
and done with, including the most recently decided

00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:29.140
NC Supreme Court case, or NC Supreme Court race,

00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:32.220
rather. Do you wish you had waited maybe like

00:30:32.220 --> 00:30:34.539
a few more months before releasing Anatomy of

00:30:34.539 --> 00:30:37.240
a Purple State? Or are you good with where it

00:30:37.240 --> 00:30:39.400
ended up? Just fodder for the second edition,

00:30:39.539 --> 00:30:43.220
right? I mean, it is wild in all seriousness.

00:30:43.400 --> 00:30:46.200
I mean, like this was an internal dialogue with

00:30:46.200 --> 00:30:49.140
myself and a little bit with the press too. Like

00:30:49.140 --> 00:30:51.039
when's the right time to put out a book like

00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:53.140
this? And so we made a decision to put it out

00:30:53.140 --> 00:30:56.779
right before the... 2024 election which was great

00:30:56.779 --> 00:30:59.160
in some ways and that people obviously were interested

00:30:59.160 --> 00:31:01.420
in politics but it also means we're gonna have

00:31:01.420 --> 00:31:03.279
to do an update pretty soon because right after

00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:05.539
the 2024 election obviously we have new data

00:31:05.539 --> 00:31:08.140
we have new insights wrote some things in there

00:31:08.140 --> 00:31:10.779
about the way for example that elections are

00:31:10.779 --> 00:31:13.119
run in the state of north carolina and as of

00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:15.660
last week like we need to update that right it's

00:31:15.660 --> 00:31:18.220
no longer the party of the governor that gets

00:31:18.220 --> 00:31:20.140
these appointees it's the party of the auditor

00:31:20.140 --> 00:31:22.339
didn't see that one coming so we are going to

00:31:22.339 --> 00:31:25.579
need some updates for sure So I'm guessing there

00:31:25.579 --> 00:31:28.819
is a second edition planned at some point. It's

00:31:28.819 --> 00:31:31.000
in my brain. Now let's see if we can get from

00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:35.019
my brain to the publisher's spreadsheet. But

00:31:35.019 --> 00:31:37.819
let's hope so. Well, that's good to know. No,

00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:40.480
I was just going to say, yeah, it's amazing how

00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:44.440
quickly things change here. You know, we've talked

00:31:44.440 --> 00:31:47.380
about on the podcast before, you know, sometimes

00:31:47.380 --> 00:31:49.519
we wish we had, like, waited a day to record

00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:53.819
or, like, maybe two hours to record. Of course,

00:31:53.839 --> 00:31:57.579
as soon as we're done recording, something happens

00:31:57.579 --> 00:32:01.460
that just negates what we just did. That's North

00:32:01.460 --> 00:32:03.819
Carolina politics, right? I mean, it is like

00:32:03.819 --> 00:32:07.019
all the cliches are true. It changes so fast.

00:32:07.259 --> 00:32:09.059
And, you know, y 'all say this. I've talked to

00:32:09.059 --> 00:32:11.000
other podcasters and they say the same thing.

00:32:11.039 --> 00:32:13.940
You know, the stuff that I write, like I feel

00:32:13.940 --> 00:32:16.059
this way constantly. Like you think, you know,

00:32:16.119 --> 00:32:18.579
you think you've got a general principle of the

00:32:18.579 --> 00:32:21.779
way things work. and then all of a sudden you're

00:32:21.779 --> 00:32:23.539
thrown for a wrench, right? You spend six months

00:32:23.539 --> 00:32:26.279
and two days, six months and one day, talking

00:32:26.279 --> 00:32:27.759
about the North Carolina State Supreme Court

00:32:27.759 --> 00:32:30.180
race, for example, and you think, hey, there's

00:32:30.180 --> 00:32:32.539
this federal judge, Judge Wynn. He's a Trump

00:32:32.539 --> 00:32:34.980
appointee. He doesn't seem real friendly to the

00:32:34.980 --> 00:32:37.359
arguments likely of Allison Riggs. I bet we're

00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:40.230
going to be in this thing for a while. Then Wynn

00:32:40.230 --> 00:32:42.049
comes down, he puts down a decision that makes

00:32:42.049 --> 00:32:44.089
you question all that. He says, essentially,

00:32:44.210 --> 00:32:47.230
Riggs is right, Griffin's wrong, let's move forward.

00:32:47.430 --> 00:32:48.970
I didn't see that one coming, I'll be honest

00:32:48.970 --> 00:32:52.410
with you. Same. Yeah, I was going to say, I don't

00:32:52.410 --> 00:32:54.430
think anybody can blame you for that. I don't

00:32:54.430 --> 00:32:57.009
think anybody saw that coming. I was expecting

00:32:57.009 --> 00:33:00.710
it to go for at least another month, if not more.

00:33:01.630 --> 00:33:03.690
That's right. I mean, it seemed like this really

00:33:03.690 --> 00:33:07.170
was the draw that Griffin wanted, as far as judges.

00:33:09.180 --> 00:33:11.000
good judge or bad judge or anything about him.

00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:13.099
It just seemed like this is somebody who is probably,

00:33:13.299 --> 00:33:15.819
you know, if Jefferson Griffin could could choose

00:33:15.819 --> 00:33:18.619
a justice, this might be the one. And obviously

00:33:18.619 --> 00:33:20.319
it didn't go that way. And it's interesting,

00:33:20.500 --> 00:33:22.779
especially when we're talking about the makeup

00:33:22.779 --> 00:33:26.259
of the court, which could make a huge difference.

00:33:26.700 --> 00:33:30.259
Maybe not coming down the line too soon, but

00:33:30.259 --> 00:33:33.880
at least in 2028, we have in between that time,

00:33:33.920 --> 00:33:38.460
four different Supreme Court races seats up for

00:33:38.460 --> 00:33:41.240
grab. So I wanted to ask you your thoughts about

00:33:41.240 --> 00:33:44.160
that. Yeah, I mean, that's it exactly, right?

00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:46.720
So I've seen a lot of folks say, well, why is

00:33:46.720 --> 00:33:49.839
the GOP and why is Griffin trying to work so

00:33:49.839 --> 00:33:51.579
hard for this one seat, right? I mean, what's

00:33:51.579 --> 00:33:54.279
the difference between being up, having one Democrat

00:33:54.279 --> 00:33:56.480
versus two Democrats? And the reason, of course,

00:33:56.599 --> 00:33:59.859
is... This is a play for the next redistricting

00:33:59.859 --> 00:34:03.700
cycle, I think, in a lot of ways. So 2028 is

00:34:03.700 --> 00:34:06.240
going to be the key year. In 2026, all the Democrats

00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:08.780
can possibly do is just hold on, of course, to

00:34:08.780 --> 00:34:11.539
a neutral seat if they're lucky. If they lose

00:34:11.539 --> 00:34:15.280
that seat, they might still have a Republican

00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:18.199
majority. But 2028 is going to be the key. And

00:34:18.199 --> 00:34:19.820
that's, I think, what everybody's playing for

00:34:19.820 --> 00:34:23.889
is 2028. 2030, because when we get those new

00:34:23.889 --> 00:34:28.730
maps in 2031, the court who's in place at that

00:34:28.730 --> 00:34:31.409
time is going to be the key driver of what's

00:34:31.409 --> 00:34:34.289
likely to happen. And just a quick follow up

00:34:34.289 --> 00:34:36.909
on that. Do you think that Democrats like the

00:34:36.909 --> 00:34:38.929
Democratic Party of North Carolina, do you think

00:34:38.929 --> 00:34:43.670
they have another six month legal battle? ready

00:34:43.670 --> 00:34:47.630
in their back pocket if something like Riggs

00:34:47.630 --> 00:34:50.429
happens again in 2026 with Anita Earls? I mean,

00:34:50.429 --> 00:34:51.789
I think they're going to have to, right? I mean,

00:34:51.809 --> 00:34:54.730
there's really no choice. But, you know, that's

00:34:54.730 --> 00:34:57.210
one of the pieces of this that some folks have

00:34:57.210 --> 00:34:58.989
covered. It's not that it's been undiscovered

00:34:58.989 --> 00:35:00.449
or something, but I don't think we've spent enough

00:35:00.449 --> 00:35:02.869
time thinking about is just how much money this

00:35:02.869 --> 00:35:05.590
costs. So, obviously, Alistair Riggs wins at

00:35:05.590 --> 00:35:07.750
the end, right? She is now sworn in. It's official.

00:35:08.050 --> 00:35:11.500
It's over finally. But... You know, there was

00:35:11.500 --> 00:35:14.059
a whole lot of money that was spent on not just

00:35:14.059 --> 00:35:16.400
one lawsuit, but multiple lawsuits from multiple

00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:19.800
angles. The Democratic Party was already ramping

00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:22.460
up for this curing process that the state judiciary

00:35:22.460 --> 00:35:25.119
had put in. And so this was not a costless exercise

00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:28.400
for the Democratic Party. And so, you know, are

00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:31.199
they ready for it again? They have to be. Is

00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:33.559
that a real hit for the party? Yeah, I think

00:35:33.559 --> 00:35:36.280
it I think it really is. Something I was kind

00:35:36.280 --> 00:35:38.860
of curious about. So, and I swear I'll get back

00:35:38.860 --> 00:35:42.539
to this in a second. It'll come around. So I,

00:35:42.619 --> 00:35:45.559
I majored in political science at App State.

00:35:46.460 --> 00:35:50.900
Yeah. And one of the things about, you know,

00:35:50.900 --> 00:35:53.300
going through that process and also just in the

00:35:53.300 --> 00:35:56.320
work I've done since then, one thing that I really

00:35:56.320 --> 00:35:57.900
started to learn about and pay attention to is,

00:35:57.940 --> 00:36:00.639
you know, kind of like our system as a whole

00:36:00.639 --> 00:36:02.900
of democracy and whatnot, but. also the kind

00:36:02.900 --> 00:36:05.440
of cracks, kind of the weaknesses in the foundation

00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:08.519
of it. And at least in my opinion, you know,

00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:10.300
I think this whole thing with Jefferson Griffin

00:36:10.300 --> 00:36:13.059
really kind of found those cracks, really kind

00:36:13.059 --> 00:36:15.860
of exploited them. And I was just kind of curious

00:36:15.860 --> 00:36:20.099
if you, in your professional opinion, if you

00:36:20.099 --> 00:36:23.099
think what he did over the past six months has

00:36:23.099 --> 00:36:26.059
kind of weakened our democracy, has kind of maybe

00:36:26.059 --> 00:36:29.639
opened the door to further attacks, so to say,

00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:32.869
what your thoughts were. Yeah, absolutely. Look,

00:36:32.929 --> 00:36:35.110
I don't think anybody left, right, center came

00:36:35.110 --> 00:36:37.789
out of this thing thinking they feel better about

00:36:37.789 --> 00:36:39.409
our election system right now. I don't think

00:36:39.409 --> 00:36:42.230
that's one thing that anybody in this state shares.

00:36:42.269 --> 00:36:45.349
So, yeah, I am very worried about what this is

00:36:45.349 --> 00:36:48.309
doing for trust in the judiciary, trust in our

00:36:48.309 --> 00:36:50.889
election system in general. Somewhere back on

00:36:50.889 --> 00:36:53.730
that shelf behind me, I've got a book that sort

00:36:53.730 --> 00:36:57.489
of goes through the history of all of these different

00:36:57.489 --> 00:37:01.590
challenges, post -election challenges. And there's

00:37:01.590 --> 00:37:03.969
none of them in that book that go quite as long

00:37:03.969 --> 00:37:06.130
as the one that we just experienced. So, yeah,

00:37:06.190 --> 00:37:09.869
I think we are in a new territory. I do not think

00:37:09.869 --> 00:37:11.510
this is the last time we're going to be having

00:37:11.510 --> 00:37:14.769
this conversation, not as a state, but as a country.

00:37:14.869 --> 00:37:17.389
Right. Because ultimately, Jefferson Griffin

00:37:17.389 --> 00:37:21.090
lost. But how much did he really lose? Right.

00:37:21.170 --> 00:37:22.949
I mean, they lost some money. There was some

00:37:22.949 --> 00:37:25.590
time. But at the end of the day, if somebody

00:37:25.590 --> 00:37:29.090
was willing to finance a similar operation in

00:37:29.090 --> 00:37:31.719
the future. kind of why wouldn't they and that

00:37:31.719 --> 00:37:33.679
is the part that scares me and that scares me

00:37:33.679 --> 00:37:36.059
if it's somebody from the democratic party taking

00:37:36.059 --> 00:37:38.139
that lesson or the republican party taking that

00:37:38.139 --> 00:37:40.780
lesson like i want to live in a world where once

00:37:40.780 --> 00:37:44.019
we go through the normal process um you know

00:37:44.019 --> 00:37:45.739
it doesn't have to end on election night obviously

00:37:45.739 --> 00:37:47.599
this is a close close election we're supposed

00:37:47.599 --> 00:37:50.760
to do recounts all that was cool but it really

00:37:50.760 --> 00:37:53.280
worries me that the lesson may be hey you might

00:37:53.280 --> 00:37:54.960
as well press it the worst thing that's going

00:37:54.960 --> 00:37:57.400
to happen is you lose you lost in the first place

00:37:57.400 --> 00:38:01.480
and Do you think that could carry over to like

00:38:01.480 --> 00:38:04.000
the national scene, like maybe even in this Senate

00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:06.179
election that's coming up? Sure. Yeah, I think

00:38:06.179 --> 00:38:08.539
it's very possible that it goes that it carries

00:38:08.539 --> 00:38:09.820
over to the national scene. I think it's going

00:38:09.820 --> 00:38:11.599
to be a little tougher to make some of these

00:38:11.599 --> 00:38:14.780
legal arguments for a federal election. Right.

00:38:14.840 --> 00:38:17.280
If you think about Jefferson Griffin's case,

00:38:17.619 --> 00:38:20.320
a lot of it was based on, you know, let's take

00:38:20.320 --> 00:38:22.860
the U .S. These are the uniformed military folks

00:38:22.860 --> 00:38:25.599
overseas. Jefferson Griffin says, hey, look.

00:38:26.090 --> 00:38:28.429
We have, just to grab one part of his argument,

00:38:28.670 --> 00:38:30.190
we have a voter ID law in the state of North

00:38:30.190 --> 00:38:33.190
Carolina, and you can't just not have that because

00:38:33.190 --> 00:38:36.849
you're a UOCAVA voter. And some folks came and

00:38:36.849 --> 00:38:38.590
said, well, UOCAVA is a federal law, like this

00:38:38.590 --> 00:38:40.369
is what's allowed, it's in all the states. And

00:38:40.369 --> 00:38:42.409
Griffin's response was essentially with a lot

00:38:42.409 --> 00:38:44.170
of legalese, but he says, look, I ain't running

00:38:44.170 --> 00:38:47.489
for federal office, I'm running for state office,

00:38:47.710 --> 00:38:49.750
right? And so therefore the state constitution,

00:38:49.969 --> 00:38:52.389
the state laws should be the ones that apply.

00:38:52.610 --> 00:38:54.389
So I think it's gonna be tougher to make that

00:38:54.389 --> 00:38:57.239
case. Not that it's impossible, not that no one

00:38:57.239 --> 00:38:59.840
will try. That's a tougher case to make, I think,

00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:02.000
at the federal level than it is for these state

00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:04.800
elections. And speaking of the federal level,

00:39:04.900 --> 00:39:09.139
also in 2026, we have a big Senate race coming

00:39:09.139 --> 00:39:11.619
up in this state, which I'm sure you are going

00:39:11.619 --> 00:39:14.219
to be paying a lot of attention to. But the question

00:39:14.219 --> 00:39:17.119
that I have is, how does the Democratic Party

00:39:17.119 --> 00:39:18.980
both reconcile with the fact that they haven't

00:39:18.980 --> 00:39:22.360
elected a U .S. senator since 2008, you know,

00:39:22.360 --> 00:39:25.329
before? a huge realignment in the state, and

00:39:25.329 --> 00:39:28.670
also the fact that they might still continue

00:39:28.670 --> 00:39:32.489
to vote Democratic for both AG and for the governor.

00:39:32.769 --> 00:39:34.849
Yeah, that's right. AG, governor, I mean, all

00:39:34.849 --> 00:39:36.530
down the ticket, right? We've got five council

00:39:36.530 --> 00:39:38.630
of state offices that are currently held by Democrats.

00:39:39.949 --> 00:39:42.809
I mean, I think it really is a matter of candidate

00:39:42.809 --> 00:39:45.329
quality. I mean, yes, the Democrats have not

00:39:45.329 --> 00:39:47.630
won a Senate election since 2008. That's a fact.

00:39:47.650 --> 00:39:50.170
There's no question. Fair and square. Those were

00:39:50.170 --> 00:39:52.510
the rules. Those have been some pretty close

00:39:52.510 --> 00:39:54.210
elections. I actually did a little bit of analysis

00:39:54.210 --> 00:39:56.269
about like which states have the closest Senate

00:39:56.269 --> 00:39:59.590
elections. And North Carolina is among the closest

00:39:59.590 --> 00:40:01.789
in the country. So I think if we look at margins,

00:40:01.889 --> 00:40:05.449
I think the Democratic Party does have a chance.

00:40:05.510 --> 00:40:08.110
This is going to be a good year to be a Democrat.

00:40:08.309 --> 00:40:10.300
That doesn't mean that I think that. Every Democratic

00:40:10.300 --> 00:40:12.840
position's right. It's just the party, the president,

00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:16.940
of course, always loses seats during their midterm.

00:40:17.079 --> 00:40:19.820
We expect the Democrats to do well. I think if

00:40:19.820 --> 00:40:22.360
the Democrats put forward the right candidate,

00:40:22.619 --> 00:40:25.380
I think there's a chance that they can take out

00:40:25.380 --> 00:40:28.920
Tom Tillis. It's nowhere near a guarantee, but

00:40:28.920 --> 00:40:30.699
it's possible. What they need, though, is to

00:40:30.699 --> 00:40:32.460
figure out who their candidate is. And right

00:40:32.460 --> 00:40:35.500
now, obviously, Wiley Nichols is declared. We're

00:40:35.500 --> 00:40:37.840
all waiting on Roy Cooper, right? I mean, the

00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:40.059
biggest lie told in North Carolina politics today,

00:40:40.139 --> 00:40:42.179
I think, is I know what Roy Cooper is going to

00:40:42.179 --> 00:40:44.360
do. Like, I'm convinced no one actually knows.

00:40:44.519 --> 00:40:46.480
What's your name? Is Kristen Cooper or Roy Cooper

00:40:46.480 --> 00:40:49.380
or maybe Morgan Jackson? I don't think you actually

00:40:49.380 --> 00:40:51.619
know what's going to happen here, but everybody

00:40:51.619 --> 00:40:54.519
likes to pretend like they know. Once we know

00:40:54.519 --> 00:40:57.619
what Roy Cooper does, no relation, then I think

00:40:57.619 --> 00:40:58.940
we're going to have a lot better sense of the

00:40:58.940 --> 00:41:01.139
seat. And if that happens. I'm glad you said

00:41:01.139 --> 00:41:05.460
no relation. I'm curious. We batted back and

00:41:05.460 --> 00:41:07.739
forth on whether to ask that question. Jeff Tamir

00:41:07.739 --> 00:41:10.820
used to always introduce me as Chris No Relation

00:41:10.820 --> 00:41:13.539
Cooper. A little bit of a follow -up question

00:41:13.539 --> 00:41:16.000
on that, and then CJ, I'll let you get to yours.

00:41:16.940 --> 00:41:20.059
But because we're still kind of waiting on the

00:41:20.059 --> 00:41:22.719
fence of whether Roy Cooper may or may not announce,

00:41:22.760 --> 00:41:25.679
I mean, it's been buzzing really since 2024,

00:41:26.119 --> 00:41:31.400
maybe even before that, just in smaller circles.

00:41:31.460 --> 00:41:34.599
But if he declares, do you think that this is

00:41:34.599 --> 00:41:36.900
something that perhaps the Republican Party needs

00:41:36.900 --> 00:41:40.039
to look at running a potentially different candidate

00:41:40.039 --> 00:41:42.280
than Tom Tillis? Or do you think that he's still

00:41:42.280 --> 00:41:45.739
a decent candidate running this third time around?

00:41:46.119 --> 00:41:48.360
Yeah, it's a great question. I think Tom Tillis

00:41:48.360 --> 00:41:51.619
is a good candidate. I don't think that the Republican

00:41:51.619 --> 00:41:54.099
Party is going to put up a primary challenge

00:41:54.099 --> 00:41:56.059
to him. So I wrote a little piece in the assembly

00:41:56.059 --> 00:41:59.179
titled something like why Tom Tillis doesn't

00:41:59.179 --> 00:42:01.360
need to worry about a primary. I mean, the reality

00:42:01.360 --> 00:42:04.489
is. Sometimes U .S. House members lose primaries.

00:42:04.489 --> 00:42:06.690
It happens. They get primaried. U .S. senators

00:42:06.690 --> 00:42:11.349
almost never lose a primary. I mean, it is incredibly

00:42:11.349 --> 00:42:13.809
rare. We haven't seen one in about 10 years.

00:42:13.989 --> 00:42:15.949
When they happen, they tend to happen because

00:42:15.949 --> 00:42:18.469
of scandal. Tom Tillis doesn't have any scandals,

00:42:18.469 --> 00:42:19.969
right? You may like his policies. You may not

00:42:19.969 --> 00:42:22.130
like his policies. The folks on the right think

00:42:22.130 --> 00:42:24.050
he doesn't go far enough right. The folks on

00:42:24.050 --> 00:42:26.769
the left think he's with Trump too much. But

00:42:26.769 --> 00:42:28.909
there's no major scandal there, at least thus

00:42:28.909 --> 00:42:31.900
far. So I think Tom Tillis. is the candidate

00:42:31.900 --> 00:42:34.059
for the Republican Party. And frankly, I think

00:42:34.059 --> 00:42:35.980
he's a good candidate for the Republican Party

00:42:35.980 --> 00:42:39.119
for all of those reasons. Now, whether it's enough

00:42:39.119 --> 00:42:41.800
to beat a Roy Cooper or whoever else the Democrats

00:42:41.800 --> 00:42:45.900
put up, we'll see. But he can raise money. He's

00:42:45.900 --> 00:42:48.840
mostly scandal free, which is hard to say these

00:42:48.840 --> 00:42:52.019
days. He does have some crossover appeal because

00:42:52.019 --> 00:42:54.760
from time to time, he is willing to challenge

00:42:54.760 --> 00:42:57.599
Donald Trump. Yes, it frustrates folks that he

00:42:57.599 --> 00:42:59.909
doesn't do it more on the left. that he does

00:42:59.909 --> 00:43:02.630
it too much on the right, but I think he's, I

00:43:02.630 --> 00:43:04.469
think he's the right candidate. Um, and if we

00:43:04.469 --> 00:43:07.909
get Cooper versus Tillis, this is going to be

00:43:07.909 --> 00:43:10.909
like Helms hunt territory. This is going to be

00:43:10.909 --> 00:43:13.030
the kind of race that people are talking about

00:43:13.030 --> 00:43:15.469
two decades from now. Oh yeah. No, a hundred

00:43:15.469 --> 00:43:19.949
percent. Um, so kind of bringing it, uh, to a

00:43:19.949 --> 00:43:24.730
little bit down ballot then, um, in 26, you know,

00:43:25.319 --> 00:43:27.159
We're going to have a bunch of General Assembly

00:43:27.159 --> 00:43:30.440
seats kind of up for grabs and everything. Are

00:43:30.440 --> 00:43:32.500
there any particular areas you're kind of watching

00:43:32.500 --> 00:43:34.320
or anything like that that you think are going

00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:38.500
to be really interesting? Yeah, absolutely. So,

00:43:38.519 --> 00:43:40.380
look, the vast majority of these seats, as you

00:43:40.380 --> 00:43:42.719
all know, are kind of locked in. You can blame

00:43:42.719 --> 00:43:44.619
redistrict. You can blame gerrymandering. You

00:43:44.619 --> 00:43:46.900
can blame residential settlement patterns, as

00:43:46.900 --> 00:43:48.840
people like to say. But just put that aside for

00:43:48.840 --> 00:43:51.360
a second and all. Start from the idea that most

00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:54.099
of these seats are locked in. But there's a small

00:43:54.099 --> 00:43:55.619
number that are going to matter. It's going to

00:43:55.619 --> 00:43:58.059
be mostly the same ones that really were tight

00:43:58.059 --> 00:44:01.099
last time. Lindsay Prather's seat in Buncombe

00:44:01.099 --> 00:44:04.519
County is obviously one watched. The Republicans

00:44:04.519 --> 00:44:07.380
put up Reese Smith last time. She raised a fair

00:44:07.380 --> 00:44:09.719
bit of money. Ultimately, Lindsay Prather was

00:44:09.719 --> 00:44:13.289
one of, I believe only. two members of the Democratic

00:44:13.289 --> 00:44:16.929
side who was actually able to win in a Trump

00:44:16.929 --> 00:44:19.230
favored district. So I think she's absolutely

00:44:19.230 --> 00:44:21.530
one to watch. That Terrence Everett seat obviously

00:44:21.530 --> 00:44:24.110
was close last time. I expect to be close again.

00:44:25.170 --> 00:44:28.710
The Tricia Cotham seat. Seems like it's probably

00:44:28.710 --> 00:44:31.650
moving farther left. That one, the Republicans

00:44:31.650 --> 00:44:34.610
were able to hold on. They put a ton of money

00:44:34.610 --> 00:44:37.050
into it. I expect to see a ton of money again.

00:44:37.289 --> 00:44:40.130
I think that one may finally get out of the Republicans'

00:44:40.349 --> 00:44:42.630
hands this next time. We'll see. But that's one

00:44:42.630 --> 00:44:45.130
to watch. And then I think there's some primaries

00:44:45.130 --> 00:44:48.010
to watch, too. Like, I am very curious to see

00:44:48.010 --> 00:44:50.789
what happens, for example, with Cecil Brockman.

00:44:51.909 --> 00:44:54.429
The Democrats have made no secret about the fact

00:44:54.429 --> 00:44:56.849
that they're not wild about some of his voting

00:44:56.849 --> 00:44:59.730
patterns and the times where he takes a walk.

00:44:59.909 --> 00:45:02.449
He has made it pretty clear that he's not real

00:45:02.449 --> 00:45:05.210
fond of the Democratic Party establishment right

00:45:05.210 --> 00:45:08.269
now at this time. We've seen this happen before

00:45:08.269 --> 00:45:10.449
where the Democratic Party has tried to take

00:45:10.449 --> 00:45:12.570
out some folks who they didn't believe were.

00:45:14.099 --> 00:45:16.119
sufficiently aligned with the party so i'm really

00:45:16.119 --> 00:45:17.739
curious to see what that looks like as well right

00:45:17.739 --> 00:45:19.360
that is a seat that's going to be held by the

00:45:19.360 --> 00:45:21.940
democrats the question i have is which democrat

00:45:21.940 --> 00:45:24.699
tends to hold it right and and that one was pretty

00:45:24.699 --> 00:45:27.380
close the last time around in his primary he

00:45:27.380 --> 00:45:30.019
only won by what did we say it was cj 85 votes

00:45:30.019 --> 00:45:33.719
80 votes or something like that yeah so it's

00:45:33.719 --> 00:45:37.320
it's not exactly safe for him necessarily no

00:45:37.320 --> 00:45:39.139
not in the primary at all he makes it through

00:45:39.139 --> 00:45:41.960
the primary I'd be shocked if he lost the general

00:45:41.960 --> 00:45:45.079
given that district. But no, I think none of

00:45:45.079 --> 00:45:48.099
this is guaranteed for Brockman at this point

00:45:48.099 --> 00:45:52.059
or, you know, this small group of folks who tend

00:45:52.059 --> 00:45:55.079
to run counter to what the minority party, the

00:45:55.079 --> 00:45:57.860
Democratic Party wants them to do. So, yeah,

00:45:57.880 --> 00:46:00.280
you know, Roy Cooper obviously played hardball.

00:46:00.780 --> 00:46:04.300
It seems like with with some of these Democrats

00:46:04.300 --> 00:46:07.409
in the past. I'm not sure what Stein's appetite

00:46:07.409 --> 00:46:09.369
is going to be to play hardball like that. I

00:46:09.369 --> 00:46:12.190
think we'll see. Stein, in general, seems to

00:46:12.190 --> 00:46:16.429
be playing a little bit of a kind of a kinder

00:46:16.429 --> 00:46:18.329
role, it seems like, at least publicly, than

00:46:18.329 --> 00:46:20.730
Cooper. I have no idea whether that's going to

00:46:20.730 --> 00:46:24.489
translate to backroom dealings or not. Now, with

00:46:24.489 --> 00:46:27.630
some of these primaries that we saw, so again,

00:46:27.769 --> 00:46:31.190
Cecil Brockman's victory by only like 80 -something

00:46:31.190 --> 00:46:34.989
votes. Up in the 27th district, Rodney Pierce

00:46:34.989 --> 00:46:38.929
being out Michael Ray by like 37 votes, I think.

00:46:39.730 --> 00:46:42.710
Even over in like Nash County, you know, it wasn't

00:46:42.710 --> 00:46:45.030
nearly as close, but it was like 400 votes with

00:46:45.030 --> 00:46:47.690
Chester and Wilkins. What do you think these

00:46:47.690 --> 00:46:51.010
like kind of really tight margins are saying

00:46:51.010 --> 00:46:53.250
about the electorate and kind of their mentality?

00:46:53.389 --> 00:46:55.590
And where do you think maybe the parties need

00:46:55.590 --> 00:46:59.280
to kind of go from there? Yeah, I mean. It's

00:46:59.280 --> 00:47:01.219
wild. I mean, just to sort of stop and jump back

00:47:01.219 --> 00:47:03.880
for a second. I mean, those are those are incredibly

00:47:03.880 --> 00:47:06.139
close primary races. And let's keep in mind,

00:47:06.139 --> 00:47:08.820
too, this is in a presidential year where they

00:47:08.820 --> 00:47:11.239
were that close. Right. So we got really high

00:47:11.239 --> 00:47:13.619
voter turnout, second highest voter turnout in

00:47:13.619 --> 00:47:16.099
the last hundred years in North Carolina. And

00:47:16.099 --> 00:47:19.099
you still have, you know, a handful of districts,

00:47:19.179 --> 00:47:21.500
the primary and then again at the general that

00:47:21.500 --> 00:47:24.219
are decided by fewer than 100 votes. It's bananas.

00:47:24.539 --> 00:47:27.880
Right. So I think what this says is that the.

00:47:28.749 --> 00:47:33.309
The primary battle a lot is which ballot to the

00:47:33.309 --> 00:47:35.889
unaffiliated folks choose. Right. I mean, ultimately,

00:47:36.070 --> 00:47:38.829
that's what the deciding factor is going to be.

00:47:39.110 --> 00:47:41.949
And the unaffiliated things, it's a fascinating

00:47:41.949 --> 00:47:43.929
deal. Right. So when you talk to political consultants,

00:47:44.130 --> 00:47:46.309
when I talk to consultants, they tend to say

00:47:46.309 --> 00:47:48.230
it's kind of much to do about nothing. Most of

00:47:48.230 --> 00:47:50.050
these people, we have other metrics on them.

00:47:50.090 --> 00:47:52.070
We know which way they lean. Right. Just because

00:47:52.070 --> 00:47:53.630
you're unaffiliated doesn't mean you're a moderate.

00:47:53.889 --> 00:47:57.250
But some of the research that I've done. It is

00:47:57.250 --> 00:47:59.909
a bold statement, right? And I think we see a

00:47:59.909 --> 00:48:02.690
remarkable amount of movement. So I just track

00:48:02.690 --> 00:48:04.730
like, all right, let's grab all these unaffiliated

00:48:04.730 --> 00:48:07.469
folks that vote consistently. How often do they

00:48:07.469 --> 00:48:09.170
choose the same primary? I did some of this work

00:48:09.170 --> 00:48:11.969
with Michael Bitzer. And what we found was just

00:48:11.969 --> 00:48:14.309
slightly less than half actually changed their

00:48:14.309 --> 00:48:16.570
primaries. I mean, that has the ability to change

00:48:16.570 --> 00:48:20.130
the dynamic really, really quickly. So, you know,

00:48:20.150 --> 00:48:22.670
I live out in Jackson County. I live up in the

00:48:22.670 --> 00:48:24.619
mountains. And I'm in the 11th congressional

00:48:24.619 --> 00:48:26.659
district. And there's this guy you all have heard

00:48:26.659 --> 00:48:30.260
of, Madison Cawthorn, maybe. Anyway, so he ran,

00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:33.500
of course, in the Republican primary for the

00:48:33.500 --> 00:48:36.239
11th congressional district. It was a big movement,

00:48:36.360 --> 00:48:40.659
very controversial around here, to get unaffiliated

00:48:40.659 --> 00:48:43.320
folks, well, to get Democrats to switch to unaffiliated,

00:48:43.320 --> 00:48:45.679
and then to get those unaffiliated folks to vote

00:48:45.679 --> 00:48:49.769
for anybody but Cawthorn. kind of worked, right?

00:48:49.829 --> 00:48:52.409
Cawthorn lost the primary for a variety of reasons

00:48:52.409 --> 00:48:55.409
I'm happy to talk about. But the key thing to

00:48:55.409 --> 00:48:58.170
bring it back to our conversation is that group

00:48:58.170 --> 00:49:01.190
of unaffiliated folks in which primary they chose

00:49:01.190 --> 00:49:05.010
had a huge amount of power on ultimately who

00:49:05.010 --> 00:49:07.769
the candidate was. And so I think the parties

00:49:07.769 --> 00:49:12.030
haven't quite figured out how to work those unaffiliated

00:49:12.030 --> 00:49:15.329
voters in a primary scenario. That's super interesting

00:49:15.329 --> 00:49:19.320
too, because like CJ and I both ran races this

00:49:19.320 --> 00:49:22.699
last go around in the NC state house. And I think

00:49:22.699 --> 00:49:27.639
we can say, uh, I mean, in different, uh, microcosms,

00:49:27.639 --> 00:49:31.380
I suppose that, yeah, indeed the unaffiliated,

00:49:31.380 --> 00:49:33.579
like you, you cannot guarantee that it's going

00:49:33.579 --> 00:49:35.639
to go one way or another. You really have to

00:49:35.639 --> 00:49:38.280
get down into the data to figure out even an

00:49:38.280 --> 00:49:40.679
inkling of an idea of how these folks are going

00:49:40.679 --> 00:49:42.980
to swing. So that, that's really interesting.

00:49:43.179 --> 00:49:47.920
And it kind of leads me into, uh, in. your view

00:49:47.920 --> 00:49:50.960
if you had to predict um in the next 10 years

00:49:50.960 --> 00:49:54.380
let's say that seems 10 to 15 years because like

00:49:54.380 --> 00:49:58.280
15 years ago democrats were holding the uh north

00:49:58.280 --> 00:50:00.880
carolina journal assembly the governorship and

00:50:00.880 --> 00:50:03.260
all that obviously that's not the same today

00:50:03.260 --> 00:50:07.280
so 15 years from now if you had to predict do

00:50:07.280 --> 00:50:10.920
you think north carolina is turning redder bluer

00:50:10.920 --> 00:50:16.420
or like grayer Yeah, I think it's going to continue

00:50:16.420 --> 00:50:20.039
to be pretty purple, pretty gray, whichever sort

00:50:20.039 --> 00:50:22.300
of metaphor you want to choose. Right. So the

00:50:22.300 --> 00:50:25.639
way I sort of think about the last 30 years in

00:50:25.639 --> 00:50:27.880
North Carolina, it's about a clock. Right. And

00:50:27.880 --> 00:50:30.780
if you've got 12 o 'clock, you've got the Democratic

00:50:30.780 --> 00:50:32.539
Party and six o 'clock, you got the Republican

00:50:32.539 --> 00:50:35.960
Party. Right. So strong blue, strong red. The

00:50:35.960 --> 00:50:39.039
whole South was at like 12 o 'clock. Right. And

00:50:39.039 --> 00:50:42.139
then it went eventually to six. And a couple

00:50:42.139 --> 00:50:45.300
of states came back to 3, 330, right? States

00:50:45.300 --> 00:50:48.559
like Virginia, for example. North Carolina is

00:50:48.559 --> 00:50:52.380
weird because we were, we're like at 230 or so

00:50:52.380 --> 00:50:54.539
for the better part of 30 years. Like we've been,

00:50:54.559 --> 00:50:57.340
we were never as democratic as all these other

00:50:57.340 --> 00:50:59.840
Southern states were. And we're not as Republican

00:50:59.840 --> 00:51:04.019
now. And so I see a lot of Democrats saying,

00:51:04.239 --> 00:51:07.159
hey, eventually we're going to win, right? Eventually

00:51:07.159 --> 00:51:09.760
the browning of the state, all the in -migrants.

00:51:10.329 --> 00:51:12.309
The Democratic Party is going to end up dominating.

00:51:12.469 --> 00:51:15.230
What I tend to see is, yeah, it may get a little

00:51:15.230 --> 00:51:17.510
bit more Democratic, but I think it's going to

00:51:17.510 --> 00:51:20.269
be competitive for the foreseeable future. Part

00:51:20.269 --> 00:51:23.090
of the reason is we're just more rural than the

00:51:23.090 --> 00:51:24.789
rest of the country. Like we have the second

00:51:24.789 --> 00:51:28.449
most rural voters in the entire country. Texas

00:51:28.449 --> 00:51:30.949
is the only state that has more. And so, yeah,

00:51:31.130 --> 00:51:33.389
Charlotte's growing. Yeah, Wake County's growing.

00:51:33.550 --> 00:51:36.769
You know, yeah, Buncombe's growing and New Hanover

00:51:36.769 --> 00:51:40.159
to some degree. But we still have that rural

00:51:40.159 --> 00:51:43.420
vote that keeps us a little bit redder than you

00:51:43.420 --> 00:51:45.519
might otherwise expect, given all the growth

00:51:45.519 --> 00:51:48.400
that's coming in. And in your suggestions at

00:51:48.400 --> 00:51:50.559
the conclusion of Anatomy of a Purple State,

00:51:50.760 --> 00:51:53.659
you put forward some reforms that you feel are

00:51:53.659 --> 00:51:56.300
actionable to improve North Carolina politics.

00:51:57.119 --> 00:51:59.340
It kind of seems like just as a whole, if not

00:51:59.340 --> 00:52:01.460
just in the General Assembly, which of these

00:52:01.460 --> 00:52:04.400
do you feel is the most achievable in the next

00:52:04.400 --> 00:52:07.679
few sessions, if any at all? Yeah. So, I mean,

00:52:07.960 --> 00:52:11.019
I think a few of them are somewhat achievable.

00:52:11.139 --> 00:52:14.159
So one that I think is pretty achievable, actually,

00:52:14.280 --> 00:52:16.840
we're seeing some movement on, coupled with something

00:52:16.840 --> 00:52:18.980
I don't like that I'll talk about. But we are

00:52:18.980 --> 00:52:21.619
seeing, so one thing I say is that I think we

00:52:21.619 --> 00:52:24.360
should move, we should get rid of these odd year

00:52:24.360 --> 00:52:26.539
elections, right? So we're about to have a ton

00:52:26.539 --> 00:52:29.860
of them across the state of North Carolina. Still

00:52:29.860 --> 00:52:31.480
trying to figure out exactly how many voters

00:52:31.480 --> 00:52:33.559
are going to be affected totally. Stay tuned.

00:52:33.900 --> 00:52:36.440
But there's a lot of them, right? So I live in

00:52:36.440 --> 00:52:38.480
the town of Silva. We're going to have a Silvatown

00:52:38.480 --> 00:52:40.920
council election. Those things get terrible,

00:52:41.159 --> 00:52:43.860
terrible, terrible turnout. And they cost money,

00:52:43.960 --> 00:52:46.880
right? Elections are not free. And so one thing

00:52:46.880 --> 00:52:50.059
I think we can do is move those to even year

00:52:50.059 --> 00:52:52.480
cycles. The General Assembly is starting to do

00:52:52.480 --> 00:52:54.360
that. And I actually think it's a really good

00:52:54.360 --> 00:52:57.750
thing. What I don't love as much. is that they

00:52:57.750 --> 00:53:00.769
tend to be coupling that with moving many of

00:53:00.769 --> 00:53:04.210
these local elections to partisan affairs from

00:53:04.210 --> 00:53:06.530
nonpartisan affairs. So they're grabbing Jackson

00:53:06.530 --> 00:53:08.250
County actually just did this. There's a bill

00:53:08.250 --> 00:53:10.969
in the General Assembly to take all local elections

00:53:10.969 --> 00:53:15.210
in Jackson County, move them to on -year cycles.

00:53:15.389 --> 00:53:19.349
I'm pro and slap a partisan label on them. I'm

00:53:19.349 --> 00:53:22.380
con. So I think. We are seeing some movement

00:53:22.380 --> 00:53:24.800
there. You know, it's coming with something I

00:53:24.800 --> 00:53:27.239
wish that wasn't there. Is that something you're

00:53:27.239 --> 00:53:29.500
willing to bite the bullet on a little bit if

00:53:29.500 --> 00:53:33.340
it comes to it? Like, is that a sacrifice you'll

00:53:33.340 --> 00:53:36.599
make? You know, I would rather, it's a great

00:53:36.599 --> 00:53:39.340
question, knows the short answer, right? So I

00:53:39.340 --> 00:53:42.300
think these, moving these elections to partisan

00:53:42.300 --> 00:53:44.920
affairs, maybe just step back to like big institution

00:53:44.920 --> 00:53:47.280
for a second. Y 'all are steeped in this stuff,

00:53:47.340 --> 00:53:49.179
but if any of your listeners aren't. which I

00:53:49.179 --> 00:53:50.760
find hard to believe if you're listening. But

00:53:50.760 --> 00:53:53.639
if you're not, right, so our governor gets the

00:53:53.639 --> 00:53:55.940
veto power over a lot of stuff. That's a great

00:53:55.940 --> 00:53:57.860
story. I talk about it some in the book. But

00:53:57.860 --> 00:53:59.880
one thing the governor doesn't have the veto

00:53:59.880 --> 00:54:03.340
power, well, three things, redistricting, constitutional

00:54:03.340 --> 00:54:05.539
amendments, and what are called local bills.

00:54:05.699 --> 00:54:08.139
And when I give this talk to like community groups,

00:54:08.239 --> 00:54:10.619
when I say local bills, everybody takes a nap.

00:54:10.780 --> 00:54:12.619
But this is really important, right? What this

00:54:12.619 --> 00:54:16.699
means is if you want to pass a bill into law,

00:54:17.179 --> 00:54:18.840
and you don't want it to go to the governor's

00:54:18.840 --> 00:54:21.099
desk, just have it affect a small geography.

00:54:21.519 --> 00:54:24.760
So if you are, say, the Republican Party, and

00:54:24.760 --> 00:54:27.239
you want to stack the farm team more in your

00:54:27.239 --> 00:54:29.559
favor, and you know there's more Republican counties

00:54:29.559 --> 00:54:31.800
than Democratic counties, and you know if this

00:54:31.800 --> 00:54:33.699
goes to the governor's desk, it's going to draw

00:54:33.699 --> 00:54:35.840
all sorts of media attention. The governor is

00:54:35.840 --> 00:54:38.639
going to veto it. How do you slow play this?

00:54:39.079 --> 00:54:42.460
You pass a local bill here and a local bill there

00:54:42.460 --> 00:54:45.260
and a local bill in another place. And you can

00:54:45.260 --> 00:54:48.039
slowly remake the state of North Carolina without

00:54:48.039 --> 00:54:51.119
anybody even really paying attention. And so

00:54:51.119 --> 00:54:54.019
I don't love the way this is happening. We've

00:54:54.019 --> 00:54:56.519
had a number of counties who have actually come

00:54:56.519 --> 00:54:59.329
in and said, please, please, please. You know,

00:54:59.329 --> 00:55:01.369
we're good Republicans. We love you guys, but

00:55:01.369 --> 00:55:03.510
we don't really think we should have partisan

00:55:03.510 --> 00:55:05.750
elections and the General Assembly in some of

00:55:05.750 --> 00:55:07.610
these cases has listened and in some of these

00:55:07.610 --> 00:55:10.769
cases has not. So I don't love the marriage of

00:55:10.769 --> 00:55:13.289
those two things together. I wish we could separate

00:55:13.289 --> 00:55:15.829
them out and just go with the cost saving, go

00:55:15.829 --> 00:55:18.610
with the higher turnout, go with what I think

00:55:18.610 --> 00:55:20.590
is better for democracy, which is more people

00:55:20.590 --> 00:55:23.570
involved in elections. Now, I'm going to take

00:55:23.570 --> 00:55:25.650
that last little part of more people being involved

00:55:25.650 --> 00:55:29.639
in elections and kind of spin it away. So with

00:55:29.639 --> 00:55:33.860
the General Assembly, you know, one thing that

00:55:33.860 --> 00:55:36.619
I've kind of noticed and just looking around

00:55:36.619 --> 00:55:38.519
and reading up on the folks who are in there

00:55:38.519 --> 00:55:44.860
is a lot of them come from, say, wealthier backgrounds.

00:55:45.019 --> 00:55:47.480
They're not necessarily working class. A lot

00:55:47.480 --> 00:55:50.539
of them are lawyers or doctors, real estate agents,

00:55:50.699 --> 00:55:55.320
whatever. And so that allows them to kind of

00:55:55.320 --> 00:55:58.280
get in the door. Right, because for those who

00:55:58.280 --> 00:56:01.119
don't know, who are listening to this, right

00:56:01.119 --> 00:56:04.280
now the salary for a member of the state house

00:56:04.280 --> 00:56:10.480
is $13 ,951. $13 ,951, yeah. We've got the book

00:56:10.480 --> 00:56:14.039
right here. But $13 ,951, obviously that is a

00:56:14.039 --> 00:56:19.000
barrier to a lot of folks who can't get involved

00:56:19.000 --> 00:56:23.909
with the politics. See, brought it around. What

00:56:23.909 --> 00:56:26.730
do you think the odds actually are of, you know,

00:56:26.730 --> 00:56:30.489
the NCGA kind of raising the salary and kind

00:56:30.489 --> 00:56:33.630
of maybe reworking, say, the long session, the

00:56:33.630 --> 00:56:35.650
short session and whatnot to make it maybe more

00:56:35.650 --> 00:56:39.750
of a full time sort of thing? Yeah. Now, this

00:56:39.750 --> 00:56:41.429
is I'm so glad you brought that up. Right. And

00:56:41.429 --> 00:56:44.349
that's another reform that I believe in strongly.

00:56:44.389 --> 00:56:46.929
So we have a couple of things on the front end.

00:56:47.030 --> 00:56:50.190
We have this is a big state. It's a growing state.

00:56:50.250 --> 00:56:52.469
We give the vast majority of our power to the

00:56:52.469 --> 00:56:54.920
litigants. We're a legislature for a state. States

00:56:54.920 --> 00:56:56.880
vary in this. We say, legislature, you're all

00:56:56.880 --> 00:56:58.619
in charge of most things. We can argue about

00:56:58.619 --> 00:57:00.199
whether that's good or bad, but that's a fact.

00:57:00.380 --> 00:57:04.099
And then we pay them $13 ,951 a year. We are

00:57:04.099 --> 00:57:07.059
in session longer in the long session than the

00:57:07.059 --> 00:57:10.139
short session usually, but sometimes that's not

00:57:10.139 --> 00:57:11.780
even true and we don't put any sort of session

00:57:11.780 --> 00:57:14.500
length on it. And we don't give folks a lot of

00:57:14.500 --> 00:57:17.000
staff, unfortunately, right? So that's what political

00:57:17.000 --> 00:57:20.199
scientists call lack of professionalism. And

00:57:20.199 --> 00:57:22.340
so... What are the odds of changing that? I mean,

00:57:22.360 --> 00:57:24.780
I think there are some ways, but I think it needs

00:57:24.780 --> 00:57:29.440
two things. One, it needs a lot of public information.

00:57:29.739 --> 00:57:33.300
So I did a survey experiment I talk about a little

00:57:33.300 --> 00:57:35.380
bit in the book where I ask people like, how

00:57:35.380 --> 00:57:37.059
much money do you think members of the General

00:57:37.059 --> 00:57:39.000
Assembly make? And I do it in four states, California,

00:57:39.460 --> 00:57:42.940
North Carolina, of course. New Hampshire, and

00:57:42.940 --> 00:57:45.079
there's a fourth state I forgot that I surveyed.

00:57:45.360 --> 00:57:47.539
And I asked people, the bottom line is everybody

00:57:47.539 --> 00:57:49.739
thinks politicians make tons of money. And the

00:57:49.739 --> 00:57:52.400
reality is, of course, they don't. So then I

00:57:52.400 --> 00:57:56.619
corrected the information for some people, for

00:57:56.619 --> 00:57:58.480
half the sample. So for half of them in North

00:57:58.480 --> 00:58:01.900
Carolina, I said, actually, I make $13 ,951.

00:58:02.219 --> 00:58:04.960
And then I asked folks, do you think we should

00:58:04.960 --> 00:58:08.019
increase that salary or not? Turns out this isn't

00:58:08.019 --> 00:58:10.760
rocket science. If you tell people how poor the

00:58:10.760 --> 00:58:13.159
salary is, They're more okay with raising it.

00:58:13.219 --> 00:58:15.360
So if you just, you know, if I walk out from

00:58:15.360 --> 00:58:18.079
campus, my office today and grab somebody and

00:58:18.079 --> 00:58:19.639
say, should we give state legislators a raise?

00:58:19.840 --> 00:58:24.480
Heck no. Can I say hell on here? You can say

00:58:24.480 --> 00:58:27.139
a lot worse. I promise you that. I won't go any

00:58:27.139 --> 00:58:30.780
worse than that. But if I say, hey, folks that

00:58:30.780 --> 00:58:32.800
represent you make less than $14 ,000 a year.

00:58:32.860 --> 00:58:35.800
Now, what do you think? I think. we know that

00:58:35.800 --> 00:58:37.219
that person is probably going to say yes. So

00:58:37.219 --> 00:58:40.280
I think thing one, education. Thing two, we need

00:58:40.280 --> 00:58:42.980
is to make sure it does not apply to the current

00:58:42.980 --> 00:58:45.760
session. Nobody wants to see people giving themselves

00:58:45.760 --> 00:58:49.079
a raise. So it has to apply for the future. And

00:58:49.079 --> 00:58:51.440
I think California actually has a model, which

00:58:51.440 --> 00:58:53.659
is going to be sort of kryptonite for some folks

00:58:53.659 --> 00:58:55.820
that have said California, but California has

00:58:55.820 --> 00:58:57.699
a model where they have a commission. Basically,

00:58:57.739 --> 00:58:59.360
they say, look, legislators should be deciding

00:58:59.360 --> 00:59:01.579
their own salaries. That's silly. Let's have

00:59:01.579 --> 00:59:04.780
a commission that decides. What's a reasonable

00:59:04.780 --> 00:59:07.639
salary based on cost of living, based on what

00:59:07.639 --> 00:59:10.039
inflation is, based on all these other factors.

00:59:10.440 --> 00:59:13.039
I think that's something with the right education

00:59:13.039 --> 00:59:15.119
that could maybe gain some traction. But if it

00:59:15.119 --> 00:59:18.139
is just, you know, some random member of the

00:59:18.139 --> 00:59:20.219
General Assembly introduces a bill to raise the

00:59:20.219 --> 00:59:22.760
salary, which has happened, that's that's dead

00:59:22.760 --> 00:59:24.579
on the rifle. It's got to be a bigger campaign.

00:59:25.219 --> 00:59:28.420
Wow. Quick follow up question on that. Do you

00:59:28.420 --> 00:59:30.579
know if these independent commissions, are they

00:59:30.579 --> 00:59:34.280
like. citizens or are they people that are involved

00:59:34.280 --> 00:59:36.400
directly with parties and everything like that

00:59:36.400 --> 00:59:39.260
or who is it usually made up of they are they

00:59:39.260 --> 00:59:42.219
tend to be made up of citizens but you know the

00:59:42.219 --> 00:59:44.340
devil is in the details and how do those citizens

00:59:44.340 --> 00:59:47.159
get on there they do tend to be appointed by

00:59:47.159 --> 00:59:50.559
the parties um but i think this is one like where

00:59:50.559 --> 00:59:52.760
hopefully there's can be some bipartisan agreement

00:59:52.760 --> 00:59:55.639
right there's no reason i can think of to think

00:59:55.639 --> 00:59:59.099
that a democrat or republican should have like

00:59:59.099 --> 01:00:01.239
different opinions on how much legislators get

01:00:01.239 --> 01:00:03.179
paid. Like, it seems like we should be able to

01:00:03.179 --> 01:00:06.519
look at a market together and say, hey, look,

01:00:06.679 --> 01:00:08.719
you know, I'm a Republican and I want them to

01:00:08.719 --> 01:00:10.659
make as much money as possible, but not too much.

01:00:10.699 --> 01:00:12.019
I want to get the right kind of person in office.

01:00:12.159 --> 01:00:14.579
I'm a Democrat and I want that. It feels like

01:00:14.579 --> 01:00:17.559
that's maybe a rare place where we might actually

01:00:17.559 --> 01:00:20.860
be able to get some bipartisan agreement. Well,

01:00:20.900 --> 01:00:24.599
I sure hope so. At some point, I don't want our

01:00:24.599 --> 01:00:27.599
legislators barely living off of a livable wage.

01:00:28.119 --> 01:00:32.239
or a non -livable wage so to speak it's it's

01:00:32.239 --> 01:00:35.099
crazy right and we can get off this onto something

01:00:35.099 --> 01:00:36.840
else but just to think about it for a second

01:00:36.840 --> 01:00:39.239
we've got a situation we're paying people's staff

01:00:39.239 --> 01:00:41.760
more money than we're paying the legislator and

01:00:41.760 --> 01:00:43.679
i'm all for staff making money too by the way

01:00:43.679 --> 01:00:47.460
but what we see is members of both parties often

01:00:47.460 --> 01:00:50.199
will have and y 'all know this their spouses

01:00:50.199 --> 01:00:53.090
as their legislative assistant Men, women both

01:00:53.090 --> 01:00:55.349
do it. Republicans do it. Democrats do it. Why?

01:00:55.570 --> 01:00:57.110
Because that's the only way to make this thing

01:00:57.110 --> 01:01:01.110
work for a household. That's insane, right? That

01:01:01.110 --> 01:01:03.849
this is the links that people are going to. Not

01:01:03.849 --> 01:01:05.710
that spouses can't be good aides. I don't mean

01:01:05.710 --> 01:01:08.210
that at all. But there shouldn't be the incentive

01:01:08.210 --> 01:01:11.809
for that to be the system. So in the book, Lindsay

01:01:11.809 --> 01:01:15.239
Prather gave me kind of a great... Example, she

01:01:15.239 --> 01:01:18.219
lives in Buncombe County and, you know, talking

01:01:18.219 --> 01:01:20.900
to her about this whole issue of salary and session

01:01:20.900 --> 01:01:23.760
length and all this. And she says it much better

01:01:23.760 --> 01:01:25.320
than I'm going to say it now. But essentially,

01:01:25.440 --> 01:01:27.760
she said, look, I'm lucky. I'm meaning Lindsay

01:01:27.760 --> 01:01:29.820
Prather, Representative Prather. I'm lucky. I

01:01:29.820 --> 01:01:32.019
have family who lives in the Triangle. I have

01:01:32.019 --> 01:01:34.639
a job that's pretty flexible. I have a spouse

01:01:34.639 --> 01:01:37.559
who's pretty flexible. And she says, like, we

01:01:37.559 --> 01:01:39.980
shouldn't have to depend on that to get people

01:01:39.980 --> 01:01:43.510
to run for office. i totally agree and i think

01:01:43.510 --> 01:01:45.190
that's true whether you're republican democrat

01:01:45.190 --> 01:01:49.190
unaffiliated green libertarian we the people

01:01:49.190 --> 01:01:51.670
if there's still a party this week whatever you

01:01:51.670 --> 01:01:57.710
happen to be a member of so sorry the we the

01:01:57.710 --> 01:01:59.789
people they made me laugh yeah that got me um

01:01:59.789 --> 01:02:06.650
oh my god do we need to take a take a breather

01:02:06.650 --> 01:02:10.960
yeah so i was gonna say i think one of the things

01:02:10.960 --> 01:02:13.800
other than pay that does stand out is just a

01:02:13.800 --> 01:02:17.659
lot of folks they can't get into this because

01:02:17.659 --> 01:02:20.199
aside from pay they don't have jobs that are

01:02:20.199 --> 01:02:24.000
flexible like you mentioned i mean you know like

01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:26.340
i said a lot of the folks in their their doctors

01:02:26.340 --> 01:02:28.300
their lawyers you know they have their own practices

01:02:28.300 --> 01:02:31.480
they can take a break but you know yeah say i

01:02:31.480 --> 01:02:35.440
wanted to you know go and run and get elected

01:02:35.440 --> 01:02:38.739
i'd have to go find a job that was willing to

01:02:38.739 --> 01:02:41.769
you know Let me take a sabbatical for six months

01:02:41.769 --> 01:02:44.710
at a time or, you know, let me essentially make

01:02:44.710 --> 01:02:47.550
my own schedule. But not a lot of clarity on

01:02:47.550 --> 01:02:50.389
what said schedule would be like. That's right.

01:02:51.150 --> 01:02:52.969
That's absolutely right. And so, you know, I

01:02:52.969 --> 01:02:55.050
live a little more than four hours from Raleigh.

01:02:55.170 --> 01:02:58.329
And so the problem is even greater the farther

01:02:58.329 --> 01:03:00.510
you get from the state capital. Right. I mean,

01:03:00.530 --> 01:03:03.409
if you live in Raleigh, it'd be a pain, but you

01:03:03.409 --> 01:03:05.639
go home and get it, you know. tuna fish sandwich

01:03:05.639 --> 01:03:08.340
for lunch if you needed to. If you're Kevin Corbin

01:03:08.340 --> 01:03:10.380
and you live in Franklin, North Carolina, and

01:03:10.380 --> 01:03:13.380
it's a full five hours to Raleigh, you can't

01:03:13.380 --> 01:03:17.159
do that. So the effects of this are not consistent

01:03:17.159 --> 01:03:19.000
across place. It also means that we're going

01:03:19.000 --> 01:03:21.039
to get fewer and fewer young people in office,

01:03:21.159 --> 01:03:23.079
which look at our General Assembly or Congress,

01:03:23.179 --> 01:03:25.179
everybody says like, there's way too much gray

01:03:25.179 --> 01:03:28.489
hair there. Well, This kind of thing only makes

01:03:28.489 --> 01:03:30.789
it worse. We also know that these relatively

01:03:30.789 --> 01:03:34.250
unprofessional legislatures like ours tend to

01:03:34.250 --> 01:03:36.829
get fewer women in office. So the effects of

01:03:36.829 --> 01:03:39.849
this are really huge. The unpredictable session

01:03:39.849 --> 01:03:42.969
length. Jim Perry, who is a former Republican

01:03:42.969 --> 01:03:45.530
senator, of course, talked to for the book. And,

01:03:45.550 --> 01:03:47.389
you know, he was saying, look, we need to put

01:03:47.389 --> 01:03:51.170
some guardrails on session length as well. Right.

01:03:51.210 --> 01:03:52.989
So I pray they're talking a bit about the salary

01:03:52.989 --> 01:03:56.500
piece. Jim Perry talking a bit about. The session

01:03:56.500 --> 01:03:59.139
link piece, and I'll say one thing that I hope

01:03:59.139 --> 01:04:01.699
Democrats and Republicans can agree on in the

01:04:01.699 --> 01:04:04.059
General Assembly this cycle is that, just in

01:04:04.059 --> 01:04:05.679
all, you may love what he's doing or not love

01:04:05.679 --> 01:04:08.480
what he's doing as far as policy or ideology,

01:04:08.840 --> 01:04:11.920
but I like that the man has a calendar. And he's

01:04:11.920 --> 01:04:14.199
putting it out. We'll see whether he follows

01:04:14.199 --> 01:04:17.059
it after June 30th, but at least up until this

01:04:17.059 --> 01:04:19.780
point, there's at least a little more of a calendar,

01:04:19.880 --> 01:04:24.460
which kudos to him and... How is it 2025 and

01:04:24.460 --> 01:04:27.320
we're giving somebody kudos for a calendar? It's

01:04:27.320 --> 01:04:30.119
bananas that this is the first time this has

01:04:30.119 --> 01:04:33.960
come up. How does that feel if you are thinking

01:04:33.960 --> 01:04:37.559
about running for office? It's just mind -blowing.

01:04:37.739 --> 01:04:40.199
I got two kids at home. Luckily for all of y

01:04:40.199 --> 01:04:41.579
'all in the state of North Carolina, I ain't

01:04:41.579 --> 01:04:44.820
running for office ever. But if I did, how would

01:04:44.820 --> 01:04:47.280
I explain this to my family? I'm going to commute

01:04:47.280 --> 01:04:50.099
sometimes but not others. My spouse is going

01:04:50.099 --> 01:04:51.599
to have to be in charge of the kids sometimes,

01:04:51.699 --> 01:04:54.199
but not others. And I can't quite plan for it.

01:04:54.440 --> 01:04:57.800
It's not a good way to run a state. Yeah, I can

01:04:57.800 --> 01:05:01.380
definitely also say for certain that anybody

01:05:01.380 --> 01:05:04.760
outside of this state or even in it has a hard

01:05:04.760 --> 01:05:09.219
time just navigating even the first thing about

01:05:09.219 --> 01:05:12.280
North Carolina politics. Forget the General Assembly.

01:05:13.079 --> 01:05:16.119
Like just following it on TV, you got to read

01:05:16.119 --> 01:05:18.300
a whole book, which is why we're so glad that

01:05:18.300 --> 01:05:20.780
one exists. Highly encourage anybody to pick

01:05:20.780 --> 01:05:23.440
up Anatomy of a Purple State. I personally listened

01:05:23.440 --> 01:05:25.800
to the audiobook version on my way to and from

01:05:25.800 --> 01:05:27.679
picking up my daughter, which that was a nice

01:05:27.679 --> 01:05:31.519
listen. So thank you for coming on the show.

01:05:31.599 --> 01:05:34.659
Thank you for giving us your insights and also

01:05:34.659 --> 01:05:37.659
giving us. A little bit of, like, and I'm not

01:05:37.659 --> 01:05:39.619
trying to spoil your book, but we talked a lot

01:05:39.619 --> 01:05:41.079
about some of the things that you talk about

01:05:41.079 --> 01:05:43.760
in the book. And that's why I highly encourage

01:05:43.760 --> 01:05:45.320
anybody to still pick it up, because he goes

01:05:45.320 --> 01:05:48.500
into a lot more detail with some of this stuff.

01:05:49.300 --> 01:05:52.500
It's pretty digestible, even if you're not a

01:05:52.500 --> 01:05:54.840
numbers person. And can I just say, personally,

01:05:55.059 --> 01:05:59.139
we're both political science majors, CJ and I.

01:05:59.199 --> 01:06:01.119
I really wish I could have taken your class.

01:06:01.619 --> 01:06:03.539
Thanks. It's been great talking to both of you.

01:06:03.559 --> 01:06:05.230
I appreciate it. what you're doing and trying

01:06:05.230 --> 01:06:06.969
to put this information out there. So thanks

01:06:06.969 --> 01:06:08.590
for your interest and thanks for doing what you

01:06:08.590 --> 01:06:11.409
do and being comfortable laughing about it sometimes

01:06:11.409 --> 01:06:14.030
too. That's the fun part. You have to. You have

01:06:14.030 --> 01:06:17.369
to at some point. It can't all be serious all

01:06:17.369 --> 01:06:19.889
the time. But speaking of not keeping it serious

01:06:19.889 --> 01:06:22.389
all the time. Sorry. I was going to say sometimes

01:06:22.389 --> 01:06:24.550
you got to laugh to stop from crying. Right.

01:06:24.769 --> 01:06:28.469
That's right. Speaking of keeping it not serious,

01:06:28.570 --> 01:06:31.889
last question that we have for you. What is your

01:06:31.889 --> 01:06:35.860
go -to? cookout menu order if you have one uh

01:06:35.860 --> 01:06:39.519
that yeah so i was there yesterday actually with

01:06:39.519 --> 01:06:43.599
uh with my kids uh so it's not like super exciting

01:06:43.599 --> 01:06:46.840
it's just a double cheeseburger tray with uh

01:06:46.840 --> 01:06:49.239
with a vanilla milkshake i realize that's really

01:06:49.239 --> 01:06:52.920
boring like that's not fun that's not cool nice

01:06:52.920 --> 01:06:54.599
do you ever get wild with it a little bit do

01:06:54.599 --> 01:06:56.980
you ever put anything on there that yeah yeah

01:06:56.980 --> 01:07:00.949
sometimes but uh You know, I decided to go with

01:07:00.949 --> 01:07:03.210
the last one. You know, I could pretend I could

01:07:03.210 --> 01:07:04.989
dress it up. I could pretend like yesterday I

01:07:04.989 --> 01:07:07.050
got something interesting. I didn't. It was really

01:07:07.050 --> 01:07:09.250
it was a boring day yesterday. Well, you know,

01:07:09.250 --> 01:07:12.150
sometimes we get to have boring days. Sometimes

01:07:12.150 --> 01:07:14.309
we get to have boring days in between the normal

01:07:14.309 --> 01:07:16.630
ones. So they're in between the extraordinary

01:07:16.630 --> 01:07:19.309
ones. But yeah, thank you so much. Professor

01:07:19.309 --> 01:07:22.110
Chris Cooper, again, wrote Anatomy of a Purple

01:07:22.110 --> 01:07:25.269
State, which is out in stores and on audiobook

01:07:25.269 --> 01:07:27.590
if you want to check that out. Where can people

01:07:27.590 --> 01:07:32.190
see more of you? Yeah. I, for good or ill, and

01:07:32.190 --> 01:07:35.090
it's both stay up on social media stuff. So I've

01:07:35.090 --> 01:07:37.530
got, I'm still on Twitter X, whatever it's called

01:07:37.530 --> 01:07:40.650
this week. I'm also on Blue Sky. Sometimes post

01:07:40.650 --> 01:07:43.110
stuff to threads, all the fair warnings. It's

01:07:43.110 --> 01:07:45.210
less political there. I tend to post more random

01:07:45.210 --> 01:07:47.630
music stuff, but I'm on most of those things.

01:07:48.349 --> 01:07:50.710
blog sometimes at Old North State Politics with

01:07:50.710 --> 01:07:54.269
my friend Michael Bitzer. I write for the assembly

01:07:54.269 --> 01:07:56.050
every now and again. I think I may have a new

01:07:56.050 --> 01:07:58.849
piece coming out there fairly soon. And I've

01:07:58.849 --> 01:08:02.610
got a website, which is chriscooper .com. Not

01:08:02.610 --> 01:08:05.110
that I'm selling anything. So find things there

01:08:05.110 --> 01:08:07.789
as well. Well, except for the book. Except for

01:08:07.789 --> 01:08:09.570
the book. That's a good point. I guess I am selling.

01:08:09.989 --> 01:08:13.889
Yeah, no, just thank you for taking the time

01:08:13.889 --> 01:08:17.409
to, you know. hop on here and uh talk to us about

01:08:17.409 --> 01:08:19.949
the book about you know just kind of the state

01:08:19.949 --> 01:08:25.329
of well i guess this state thank you and um you're

01:08:25.329 --> 01:08:29.449
welcome back on anytime if if perhaps maybe uh

01:08:29.449 --> 01:08:33.890
2026 rolls around we can revisit and see uh where

01:08:33.890 --> 01:08:36.229
everything fell i'd love to yeah i know anytime

01:08:36.229 --> 01:08:37.989
it's great to talk to both y 'all i'm actually

01:08:37.989 --> 01:08:40.390
gonna be just stewart's got me doing some talk

01:08:40.390 --> 01:08:41.949
in the general assembly building in a couple

01:08:41.949 --> 01:08:46.079
of weeks too if y 'all are um around oh wow uh

01:08:46.079 --> 01:08:48.460
it's like more it's like 7 30 in the morning

01:08:48.460 --> 01:08:51.180
and ridiculous so like get jacked up on coffee

01:08:51.180 --> 01:08:54.699
um but if you're around love to see you both

01:08:54.699 --> 01:08:56.520
all right thank you so much