Welcome, welcome, welcome back to the Left of
Old North. We just came off the back of recording
a great interview with senatorial candidate and
former House Representative Wiley Nickel. I think
it went really well. What do you think, CJ? I
thought it was absolutely fantastic. Yeah. Absolutely
fantastic. There's a lot of great stuff except
for y 'all to hear. Yeah, it almost makes it
worse that we have to now come back and talk
about all the other crappy stuff that went on
this week. It's kind of a downer coming back.
But that means that on the back half of this
episode, you have something to listen to that
I think you're really going to love. And you
know what? This first part, it's not even all
bad news. It's not. That's true. Yeah, that's
true. It's not all bad news. But we do have another
guest on the show right now. Yes, so this is
Kevin the Cat. Yes, his name is Kevin the Cat,
according to the vet. He is about six years old,
loves long walks on the beach, loves trying to
chase birds through the window, and causing general
mayhem. Well, he can run for Chuck Hubbard's
seat then. So we, and that's not quite a segue,
but we'll get to it. The left got a bit of a
big, huge, fat W this week. One that was desperately,
desperately, desperately needed. Justice Allison
Riggs is now officially, and she has been sworn
in since the time that we recorded this, she's
now officially the Associate Supreme Court Justice
once again of the North Carolina Supreme Court,
duly elected after... four tries you know the
the fight of a lifetime I guess one could say
honestly though most people don't get to claim
that their race went on for six months longer
than it should have I mean I don't think a lot
of people want to claim that yeah only if you
win right because then it's like is that I was
just about to say imagine being Jefferson Griffin
right now the guy dragged this out for six months
spent god knows how many millions of dollars
on lawyer fees and you know just challenges and
whatnot yeah just to lose to lose and you know
Jeff over and you know Jeff i do feel bad i know
you listen to this podcast and you know we love
that you're a regular listener so Just, you know,
I understand if you're taking it really hard.
I understand if this was a huge burden on you.
Maybe just get off the appeals court now. I think
that you need a break. I think really, you know,
you should take a break from the appeals court
too. I know you're still on there. That's got
to be rough. Yeah, exactly. I mean, imagine going
there like every day just knowing that everyone
knows you're a loser. It's got to be tough. It's
got to be hard on that. Yeah, go on. Take, you
know, a couple of years, decade. Yeah. The rest
of your life. just you know go relax take a roll
off load off yeah but regardless i mean and this
is the this is the thing right we we have been
waiting for this we have been talking about this
the people who listen to this show know we have
been talking about this since we started the
show and it's finally over so i guess we can
quit the show now job's done totally we have
We have done everything that we need to do. Democracy
is saved. North Carolina politics are no longer
messed up in any type of way. We are done. Let's
back it up and go home. Utopia. We did it. Oh,
wait. What comes up must come down. Because almost
as soon as we learned of Alison Riggs' victory,
we were faced with the crushing blow to the fact
that the North Carolina Board of Elections is
now thoroughly controlled by MAGA Republican
sycophants. The head of which is now Dave Boliek,
the state auditor. Please, I'm begging somebody
in this entire country to make that make sense
to me. I can't for the life of you tell you why.
I mean... You don't understand it because you're
not Republican and because you actually have
at least some degree of morals and integrity.
And I mean, again, we've said many times on the
show, the Republican Party in North Carolina
and in the country as a whole, really, they know
that their policies are unpopular. They know
that people don't actually like the idea of being
taxed more while the rich you know or tax less
they don't like the idea of you know republicans
trying to regulate trying to manage and legislate
their bodies they know that their policies are
awful and so what do they do they have to these
power grabs right it's that simple which is why
you know sorry i was gonna say because they don't
As we've said before, they don't give a shit
about your vote. They only care about their power.
That's going to be like the tagline for this
show at this point. I think you've said it at
least once in the last four episodes. Hey, if
it takes people hearing it like every single
episode to get it through their heads, then,
you know, more power to you. But that being said,
like. We are in that precarious predicament where,
just like what we're going to talk about later
with Wiley Nickel, the maps are completely screwed.
That we have a voter population that more or
less swings purple. Sometimes a little bit more
red, sometimes a little bit more blue. Sometimes
it depends on what the office is. Because when
it comes to governor, we have a hot streak of
Democratic governors that split tickets with...
Republican presidents. We also have an even hotter
streak with attorney generals. Yeah, I think
the last time that happened was, what, like the
1800s or something like that? Yeah, so ever.
Like the 1800s? Yeah. So like never. In recent
memory, at the very least, it has just not happened.
And while I know that we're in an age now where
Twitter transvestigators will try and... piece
together why somehow a voter base can somehow
split down the middle, how somehow a population
can have differing and nuanced views that'll
boggle their brains until the end of time. They
can't believe that there's a Democratic governor
in a state that Trump won by four points. But
that's the reality of North Carolina. And that's
something we'll talk about more in another episode.
But I think before we get too off track here,
we had a 7 -7 House representation in the United
States House. It was seven seats for the Democrats,
seven seats for Republicans. Were those seats
pretty gerrymandered? Were they a little wiggly
looking? Depends on who you ask. But it used
to be balanced, right? It wasn't based on landmass.
It was based on representation. And, you know,
you can't say the same for senators. And that's
a statewide election. It makes sense. But at
the same time, we saw how close those elections
got. Yeah. It's not a blowout by any means. No.
And I'll tell you one thing I'm kind of interested
in is with these Senate seats. And maybe we should
ask Wiley about his thoughts on this. But, I
mean, Senate races, not just in North Carolina,
but in general. just getting more and more and
more expensive. Yeah. So I'm really curious what
a six is going to look like financially as far
as how much is going to be dropped on these races.
Yeah. I actually got fed an ad on Instagram where
this guy was showing how much each tier of race
would cost. He was going from state house, state
senate. congressional, senatorial, presidential.
And like when he got to the state house, state
Senate numbers, I was like, no, no, it's like
double that now. It's actually pretty insane
how expensive some of these state house races
have gotten. I mean, I know some of them have
like pushed like a million dollars, if not more.
Yeah. I mean, we could say the average is anywhere
from like a quarter to a half million dollars
easily on the low end. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I mean,
I know that's what we were working with on one
of the races I've managed was about that much.
Races are expensive, folks, believe it or not.
And it's not just because of, you know, padding
the pockets of consultants and stuff like that.
A lot of it is ads. Almost exclusively ads, if
you really bring it down. I mean, you know, it
also just depends on where you live in the state.
I mean, where your race is, I guess, really.
Depends on that. determines what media market
you fall into. So, like, you know, the race that
I was managing happened to fall into the Raleigh
media market, which, you know, Raleigh, big city,
airtime is expensive. Very, very expensive. Because
you're taking away that slot from a potential
advertiser. Somebody who could probably pay them
for a lot longer of a runtime, too. Well, longer
of a runtime as far as the actual ad itself goes,
and for a longer period. of time but yeah yeah
so don't donate to your local races folks yeah
donate again and again again if you can don't
sell if possible donate to races that definitely
affect you personally and this isn't to say like
hey if you don't have the means don't go don't
go giving money to like the presidential campaigns
or maybe a senatorial campaign in a different
state right because they might need those dollars
too but But your dollar goes a lot further when
it comes to the state house, state Senate races,
especially, especially if they're competitive.
Cause cause sometimes literally sometimes 50
bucks can make a difference. And that's not an
exaggeration. Like that can. That can be the
difference between paying somebody for an hour
of canvassing time, getting them out there on
the doors talking to people. And that could be
the vote that helps swing a precinct and could
help swing an election. Yeah. I mean, because
remember, it was Cheri Beasley lost by 400 votes.
If just one and a half people, I think is what
they came out to. It's like if two people in
every precinct had come out to vote for her,
she would have won. That's it. Two people. Two.
So on a statewide race, it can definitely make
the difference. So if you're on the fence and
you're sitting there saying to yourself, well,
what can my money do? What can my time do? It
has an impact. We can probably see that. On a
national level, who can say? Maybe you're the
guy that was able to swing that one voter's opinion
in Philadelphia when you went phone banking for
random Democratic presidential candidate who's
running in the primaries. Who knows? But you're
in the arena. You're making a difference, right?
Exactly. Exactly. You know, I will say since
we just kind of got into like campaign stuff.
We don't have to stay on campaign stuff if it's
too traumatizing for you. Folks, I've been working
on campaigns since like 2016. Any trauma has
been long repressed and or dealt with somehow.
Yeah. Nice. Good save there on the end. And or
dealt with. Yeah. We're trying to get a BetterHelp
sponsorship just for CJ. Appreciate it. Appreciate
it. I've completely derailed him. I'm so sorry.
So now I will say, you know, all this, you know,
we're going to be heading to midterms here fairly
soon, actually. I know it's May 2025. Yeah. It's
May 2025, but, you know, you have candidates
who are already declaring. Things are going to
kick up, so. If you find a race that you're interested
in, again, donate to it, but also try to get
involved if you can. Yeah. I think more than
anything, we definitely push people to make sure
that they know what's going on in their districts.
Because we can't be the end -all, be -all. WRAL
isn't going to be the end -all, be -all. News
and Observer can't tell you the whole picture.
Ultimately, until you get involved and until
you know the people that we're talking about,
until you take a moment to kind of like... put
the magnifying glass up to your own neck of the
woods, then you're going to be doom scrolling
still. And I know a lot of those people. They
come asking me, what can we do about this situation?
And you know what I tell them? Stop doom scrolling.
Leave me alone. Is that what you say? No, I say
stop doom scrolling. You got to stop doom scrolling.
It's not helping your mental health. It's not
helping the cause. You're not making yourself
more aware. You're feeding into the algorithm.
I say that while CJ sends me like 15 videos a
day on TikTok and Instagram, respectively. Look,
sometimes I'm just scrolling and I'm just mad.
All I'm saying is, folks, you don't have to get
to the point where you're an addict like CJ is.
You can. You can. Save yourself from this life.
We have to bear this burden. So you don't have
to. So you don't have to. Yeah. We're basically
Jesus Chr-.
So I just want to take a moment
to say that I completely pushed myself away from
Adrian here. The podcast is coming to an end.
He can no longer associate with me. We're going
to put out a blanket statement. Black text on
a white background. Not as like a text post,
but as like, you know, when people, when celebrities
do those like texts, posts of an image. That's
from the notes app. yeah that's the most i think
disrespectful version of that oh yeah he didn't
even take the time to like make it look nice
and format it or anything I... did a a snap
of my phone image and send it to my publisher
or my my PR person and then that's yeah we'll
just push that part of me wonders if they do
that to try and seem you know or down to earth
so say more normal It just kind of makes them
look like an asshole. It really does. Well, that's
what I was going to say. It is a fine line, for
sure. But if you are doing it as an apology letter,
you might need to bring it back around to campaigning.
I've noticed that people use the Notes app, like
Look, to kind of make candidates seem a little
bit more down to earth. Like, hey, I'm X from
this district. want to float me five dollars
and it's like the notes app right and i think
that that's effective saying you need to apologize
for some horrible social faux pas that you committed
to your millions of followers on twitter probably
let's put a little bit more effort into it yeah
i get the same anxiety though when i see political
candidates make user generated content and they're
just hovering over the the camera like this They're
like, hey folks, it's Representative Andy something
from Nevada. And you're just like, can you back
up, please? I don't need you to be this close
to me. You remember the Hillary Clinton, I'm
just chillin in Cedar Rapids? video how could
i forget it's it's right up there with pokemon
go to the polls okay now that actually did maybe
trigger a little ptsd there in his hands folks
we broke him it only it only took one episode
of on camera but yes i remember the chilling
in cedar rapids video because i had just started
following the potus or the the hillary clinton
for the what was it it was hillary it was just
at hillary clinton right something like that
yeah i just started following her on on instagram
because i never mess with it but i was like i'll
get a little more interested i'll get involved
in politics and then like two days later she
uploaded that and you immediately unfollowed
deleted all your accounts i was like you know
what maybe instagram's not for me i clearly don't
understand it but no i mean yeah you're you're
the one who doesn't understand it sure yeah right
yeah no i'll i'll take the fall there Hillary
you're all good you're you're you're good girl
i'm sure she'll appreciate that she watches the
show so Yeah, she does. We got a message from
her saying she wants to come on here at some
point and talk. I think she's lying personally.
No, we shouldn't say that. She has no way to
respond to this. Bill actually hacked her servers.
If we could get Bill Clinton on, I think I can
probably die happy knowing that I got a former
president on a podcast. Maybe Obama. Obama's
the pinnacle right now. Honestly. Honestly, anyway,
we can't get back on track. We do. So, so one
thing I think just to round this out before we
get to talking about Wiley is we need to discuss
some of, some of the bad bills that have kind
of floated through the general assembly this
week. And also just kind of talk about the way
ahead. We we've got a lot coming up, coming down
the pipeline later on. That is. probably going
to present itself to be a problem not the least
of which is the board of elections stuff I mean,
with the NC DOGE stuff with Destin Hall getting
a lot more maybe not big for his britches but
he's definitely gotten a lot more bold in recent
weeks I've noticed yeah i would agree and i mean
I don't know if part of that is just because
they were trying to get through crossover which
for those of you who don't know what crossover
is It is essentially a self -imposed deadline
where if a bill originates in the House and they
want to send it to the Senate, they have to by
this date. If a bill originates in the Senate
and they want to send it to the House, they have
to send it over by that date. I mean, it's partly
self -imposed just so that this doesn't go on
forever because there's an endless number of
bills that could be voted on and debated and
whatnot. You got to have a bottleneck somewhere,
right? Exactly. And so I'm wondering if maybe
just in this rush to get through this crossover
deadline, why you said this and I was getting
a little bit more bold. I don't know. Definitely
seemed that way when I was looking at some of
the bills that they, like they did shoot down
the complete and total abortion ban. One that
was about to go through, which we even said on
the podcast, it wouldn't be a good idea if they
did it. And like, you know as is the running
theme on this show two days later they they updated
that and decided not to table it yeah they also
if I'm not mistaken essentially tabled the bathroom
bill yeah they did the new version you know which
I'm glad we didn't go into great detail with
because i was like there's no way that they're
gonna put this up to a vote again I'm glad we
didn't have to talk about those you know I think
that people are becoming, maybe not becoming
a little bit more aware. That's such a boomer
thing to say. Like somebody who just says, oh,
I think people are getting more into politics.
It's like, no, I think I'm becoming more aware
of other people being aware. You know? Yeah.
Like other people coming up to me and saying,
Hey, do you know about this thing? Other people
cross -posting things on Facebook. Relatives
that I have that never talk politics. are suddenly
increasingly getting more aware of the things
that are going on and not in like a in like a
oh did you see what Donald Trump just did kind
of way but like one of my relatives was like
posting something about she doesn't even live
in North Carolina and she was posting something
about Thom Tillis wow yeah so I was like oh I
mean like my my mom is actually a great example
she doesn't really do anything you know super
political or anything like that um i mean other
than like vote really right the most patriotic
thing you could do but like I mean, she you know,
she's a nurse and she is very concerned about
like health care cuts and budget cuts and whatnot
and she's tried reaching out as a constituent
to organize or to representatives and whatnot
saying hey these cuts are dangerous you shouldn't
vote for them you shouldn't you shouldn't do
them yeah And, you know, it doesn't hurt that
it affects her more directly a little bit. Yeah.
Because you've said before, right, your mom leans
a little bit more conservative. I would say more
moderate at least, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Now my extended
family, that's all I've read. Hey, all my extended
family is from Texas, so we're in the same boat
right there. Once we get that BetterHelp sponsorship,
we can have a therapist on here to talk us through
those. Through those relationships. Yeah. But
that being said, I think that we are ready to
move on to talking with Wiley Nickel. And it
was a great conversation. I hope you stick around
for it. In the meantime, make sure to follow
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yeah no seriously folks we got a great conversation
ahead of us with wiley nickel so stick around
and enjoy welcome welcome welcome back to the
left of old north we're your hosts adrian and
i'm cj And today we are joined by someone who
is right here at the intersection where policy
meets political reality. Wiley Nickel is a former
state senator, two -term member of, or one -term
member of Congress, excuse me, representing North
Carolina's 13th district, and now a candidate
for U .S. Senate in what's shaping up to be one
of 2026's most closely watched races. So we're
going to dig into a little bit of the why behind
his run. What he thinks is broken in Washington.
And I think we can agree that there's more than
a few things. And what he's prepared to do about
it if he becomes the next senator from North
Carolina. Congressman Wiley Nickel, welcome to
the show. Hey, thanks so much, Adrian. You know,
I wish it was more than one term in Congress.
I didn't leave by choice. So, you know, I hope
the next time I'm on, you know, you can say more
than one term. Absolutely. Yeah. And that was
just to slip up. I actually live in your district.
So it's doubly interesting for me to meet you
right now. And I wish I could have seen you become
the congressman from my district still. But that
actually kind of leads me into something that
you have dealt with personally and I know was
a big portion of what you have previously ran
on, which is Fair Maps. And I know you tried
to push the Fair Maps Act through Congress. And
there was issues around that with, I guess it
got stuck in committee. And I would love to hear
you talk a little bit more about that and what
you plan to do in the future. If you continue
on with the fair maps. push? This is, you know,
Adrian, the number one thing that's just totally
screwing up Congress. You know, the system is
absolutely broken. And if you're going to point
at one thing that we got to fix to get things
right in Washington, it's ending partisan gerrymandering.
You know, we are totally screwed as voters because
of it, especially here in North Carolina. You
know, voters should be choosing their politicians,
not the other way around. And, you know, what
happened in North Carolina was, you know, I got
elected with Fair Maps. We had court -drawn maps
that didn't elect. They weren't Democratic maps
or Republican maps. They were fair maps, and
they were designed to elect seven Republicans,
six Democrats, and one 50 -50 seat that could
have gone either way. It was a slightly Republican
-leaning district, including your hometown of
Clayton. And we won that by three points. It
was a big win in a district like that. And, you
know, that's what the district should look like.
That's how these races should be won. But the
sad reality is, out of 435 members of Congress,
Less than 40 of them are in what are considered...
truly competitive districts. You're talking about
8% of Congress that are in these districts.
The other 92 % are in seats that are basically
guaranteed to whoever wins the Democratic primary
or the Republican primary. So, you know, this
is the thing we got to fix. It's the reason why
we continue to get so little done in Washington.
You know, if we had more accountability, you
wouldn't have these sycophants for Trump. They
would be responsible to the voters, not to do
whatever Donald Trump tells them to do. That's
the thing that we got to fix. And I had a bill
for that, the Fair Maps Act. And we had these
Duke researchers look at it. This was independent
redistricting every state. So every state plays
by the same set of rules. So think Colorado,
Arizona are kind of good examples. And the Duke
researchers looked at it and they said, OK, if
my bill were law, we'd double the number of competitive
seats from 40 to 80 nationwide. That would be
a sea change in Congress where we'd be able to
get serious things done instead of this constant.
fight in washington so that's the thing you know
one of the reasons why i'm running for the senate
is because it just takes 50 votes in the senate
to move a bill like that through along with the
house and a president willing to sign it so if
we're ever going to get anything done on the
net on the federal level it's going to be because
we move a bill through the the house and senate
the the audacity of thinking that it's somehow
controversial to want 80 seats out of 435 House
seats to be at least somewhat competitive. I
can't believe it. I will say one thing I'm curious
about is, you know, how would you try to kind
of, I guess, move this bill along? I mean, you
know, Republicans and some Democrats, I don't
necessarily will. I see, you know, voting for
what they might see against, you know, their
own interest. so to say but you know so i think
i think the the real question is for the voters
who and they're looking at this and they're seeing
democrats saying one thing republicans saying
another there are some states where democrats
gerrymander but there are a lot more republicans
heavily gerrymandered like north carolina so
if you add up all the seats nationwide the non
-partisan groups including the brennan center
have kind of come to this conclusion democrats
are really screwed republicans have a 16 -seat
gerrymandering advantage nationwide so if you
just count up all the districts you know obviously
in some states where there's no where just one
member of congress they can't gerrymander you
have some states where they have fair processes
to draw maps, but you have a lot that are partisan
gerrymandered. So we are down 16 to Republicans
because they are much more ruthless. They are
tougher. They're willing to do whatever it takes.
So for the voters who are like, okay, how are
we going to make sense of all this? They got
to trust the Democrats because we are proposing
fairness. We're the ones who are trying to get
fairness into the system because we benefit from
it. Number one. That's why they should trust
us to do it. And what we're talking about, my
bill, it's getting five Democrats, five Republicans,
five independents together with criteria to draw
fair maps. Now, there's never going to be a perfect
way to do this, but this has been proven to be
much, much better. And you get, you know, real
competition. That's all we really want is to
have folks accountable to voters in November,
not to the, you know, to the extremes. general
elections that are fairly meaningless in terms
of actually getting a real change. And you actually
addressed one of the other questions I was going
to bring up, which was the nonpartisan or independent
commissions form of that. And I think the other
question I would roll off the back of that, maybe
an addendum to it, is do you have any plans or
do you support things like... term limits yeah
i mean i i did let me tell you i didn't support
term limits until i got to congress and i got
to see a lot of people truly are just there for
the free shrimp they are not participating and
this is democrats and republicans so i i i really
didn't but so the answer to the question is yes
i do as part of a deal that includes ending partisan
gerrymandering making it easier to vote if that's
what it takes to get Republicans and Democrats
together to fix these big structural problems,
sure, yeah, no, I think, you know, there's a
place for that for, you know, looking at 18 years,
something like that, I think makes a lot of sense.
And by the way, if you want to talk about term
limits, I had one Republican colleague in Congress
who, just like in the middle of term, Her staff
just checked her into a memory unit and no one
heard from her until just months left. Everyone
kept saying, well, where did she go? Where did
she go? And then some reporter said, oh, she's
in a memory unit. She got checked in and, you
know, like that's, if any reason, you know, to
do this, that's certainly one. Yeah, I would
say so. We don't need the Congress becoming a
nursing home, for sure. And another portion of
that, like maybe not term limits, but age limits.
Is there anything that you personally see or
maybe politically see as viable there? You know,
I mean, we have age limits for federal judges.
That's something that we do outside of the Supreme
Court. I, you know, I think that's a tough one.
You know, the voters. The Constitution will make
that very difficult to get age limits. But the
problem is, the older you get, the longer you
serve in Congress, the more goodwill you make
with your voters. I mean, voters hate Congress,
but they love their member of Congress. You get
millions of dollars a year to serve your constituents.
You're smart. You spend a lot of time focusing
on helping them solve their problems with constituent
services. So every year, you help thousands and
thousands of people with real problems, whether
it's getting a passport at the last minute, getting
money back from the government. I got somebody.
you know, over three quarters of a million dollars
from the IRS. I can tell you that dude, Republican
or Democrat, is definitely going to be thinking
good things about me when he goes to vote. So
that just builds up. And so, you know, when you
have these members who get into their, you know,
70s and 80s and they've been there 20, 30 years
and, you know, they know they can do whatever
they want and nobody's going to be able to dislodge
them unless they, you know, break faith with
the party in some horrible way, which, you know.
almost never happens in congress so you know
it's it's it's or i i think the best thing we
can do is make things more competitive fair maps
would do a lot to help you know solve some of
those problems yeah three quarters of a million
dollars i'm gonna have to like call you after
this and see if you can help me out now um so
kind of going off of that kind of getting away
from congress itself but What do you think about
the idea of term limits for the Supreme Court
or some federal court reform, expansion, that
sort of thing? It should just be two Supreme
Court justices every four years, period. That's
how it should work. Whoever wins the White House
gets two, two get off. We can talk about age
limits that help make that into a reality, but
that's, I think, the easiest place where you're
going to get more agreement from folks. That's
a fairer way to do it. But, you know, we've been
just totally screwed with the courts over and
over. We are not tough enough. You know, Obama
should not have just played dead and not put
anyone on the court. You know, we had a chance
to do that. We didn't. And, you know, and then
the Republicans just rolled all over us over
and over with these with these with, you know,
with with the folks that they put on. So, you
know, part of my whole approach and I think what
Democrats are really failing to do is just we
got to be a lot. stronger and a lot tougher.
And that means not accepting anything less than
fairness for the highest court in the land. I
mean, yeah, no, I mean, I think you're right.
I agree with you. You know, you kind of mentioned
that Democrats have to kind of get tough and
whatnot. That kind of leads us into kind of a
different topic of sorts. And one of these things
is, you know, at least amongst like the younger
crowd, so to say, there seems to be a lot of,
you know, kind of frustration with Democratic
leadership. Right. So with these younger voters,
with the younger crowd, what would you say to
them? You know, some of them are kind of see
like the DNC, just the Dems as feckless, so to
say, or just, you know, out of touch. You know,
some of them are. And, you know, the first thing
I'd say is don't don't give up on us. Get involved.
Show up. That's the first thing. And that's how
you make change. So you don't do it by not getting
involved. But they're right. When we have our
leverage, we have to use it. And in the situation
we find ourselves now in Congress, if the shoes
were on the other foot with Republicans, they
would not be doing all the super polite, nice
things that we're doing right now. They would
be a lot tougher. And we certainly wouldn't have
a bad budget right now. And I think that's part
of it. That is justified frustration when I go
around and talk. You know, that's really my call
to action. It's not to the folks who are showing
up. They're doing their part. The folks who are
listening to your podcast right here, they are
part of the solution. They are actively engaged
in fixing things. You know, it's the elected
officials that are not doing nearly enough. If
you're not Cory Booker on the floor of the Senate
for 25 hours, you are missing the moment here
with what's happening with Donald Trump. So I
think that's at least the place that I start.
Yeah, it's what, there's almost 300, maybe a
little bit more, Democratic members of Congress.
Maybe they could all chip in a 25 -hour stint.
Do you think you might be able to do that? Perhaps
future Senator Nixon? I guarantee it, when I
get to the Senate, I'm going to beat Cory Booker's
record. You heard it here first. That is part
of the plan. Assuming that Trump is continuing
to do what he's doing to our democracy, and no
matter what, he's going to be president for the
next three and a half years. So we're going to
have to really focus on how we... you know stand
up for our principles and stand up to to these
constant attacks on our democracy and you know
and really it just it comes down to holding folks
accountable and there's no greater sycophant
in the senate who knows what he's supposed to
do and does the opposite than Thom Tillis so you
know in this election we get a real chance to
send a message to you know someone like Tillis
who continues to enable trump at every step of
the way yeah that actually leads me into You're
great with the segues right now. I really appreciate
that. You're making it easy for us. The Senate
is often seen as the last check on power before
something gets to the president's desk, whether
it's a nomination or a bill or a spending package,
whatever. So with Thom Tillis out of the picture,
let's say 2026, you are our next senator. 2027,
excuse me, you are our next senator. Donald Trump
still has about two years left of putting forward
people and bills and such on the docket. What
is your general approach? as a member of one
of these committees that may or may not be deciding
on the future of one of Donald Trump's nominees.
I mean, the founders were very straightforward
with their approach to how we're supposed to
function as a democracy. It involves checks and
balances. And that's the greatest failure of
the Congress right now, is that there are no
checks and balances for Trump. He is literally,
you know, spreading the Constitution in the Oval
Office. while Republicans sit on their hands
and do nothing. Hey, but privately, I can tell
you, privately, they'll tell you it's horrible.
They think Trump's an idiot. You know, they hate
all this stuff. But publicly, all they do is
say he's the best guy in the world and they do
nothing to stop him as he continues to just shred
every single norm we have. So, you know, I think
that the Senate is the place where we have these
checks and balances. And I'm in the Senate. You
know, you're looking for people who actually
qualified to do their job. And, you know, sometimes...
You know, the Republican wins the White House,
they're entitled to have their people in office,
but they're not entitled to have total idiots.
And especially, you look at our Secretary of
Defense, a walking national security disaster,
a total buffoon. everybody could see the guy
was unqualified. And Tillis, by the way, said
he thought he was unqualified. He thought he
was a bad candidate. He told the sister of the
wife that if she came public with her story,
he would vote against Tillis or against Hegseth.
And then at the last minute on the last day,
he flipped and voted to confirm Pete Hegseth.
So that shows, that is the canary in the coal
mine moment where you see that there are no checks,
there are no balances, but, you know. We got
a chance to send a message here. And, you know,
when I'm in the Senate, we're going to have someone
who's standing up for what's right for North
Carolina. I think we're missing that right now.
So safe to say you would not have confirmed Pete
Hexeth. Yeah, hard, hard pass. That's good to
know. We were kind of talking about, like, these
kind of attacks on the Constitution, on democracy
and whatnot. You know, what would you say kind
of, you know, the average person, let's say,
who's not a member of Congress? What? What can
they do to kind of fight back against all this?
Because you have people like Steve Bannon, Stephen
Miller, I guess a bunch of Steves, just saying
stuff like, you know, they want to get rid of,
you know, habeas corpus. And they, you know,
they will have Trump run for a third term and
he will win and all this stuff. You know, these
things are obviously a. massive attack on the
Constitution. How would you say the average person
can kind of fight back against that? Well, you
know, I think one of the first things that's
important is to educate, you know, to educate
yourself, understand what's going on. You know,
Republicans have a real advantage in sort of
the information ecosystem. You know, they have
a lot more podcasts and groups focused on putting
out their far right extreme message. So one of
the reasons I was excited to come on your podcast
is this is exactly what we need a lot more of.
We need more folks like left to vote. Old North
talking about issues on our side so that, you
know, we have that balance in terms of that information
ecosystem. You know, but for folks who are kind
of looking at the mess in Congress, we listen,
you know, and as a member of Congress, you know,
I get detailed information whenever folks contact
my office, you know, what they're contacting
us about. We respond, responded to over 200 ,000,
you know, emails, letters, and other forms of
communication. And and it matters. So, you know,
if you're if you're pissed off, you got Thom Tillis
as your senator. Send him a message. Tell him
why you're upset. You know, same with your House
member, whoever it is. And most importantly,
if it's if you got someone who votes the way
you agree with on something, tell me you like
that, too. I think that's an important way to
help keep folks moving in the right direction,
too. Well, I appreciate that. And also, I think
we fully. 100 % agree that we do need more voices,
not just on the left, but trying to bolster the
message, the very message that you were trying
to send right now. So definitely appreciate that.
You attended an empty town hall, or excuse me,
a town hall that was held for Congressman Bradnott
out of your previous district. And he wasn't
there. You were. You want to tell me a little
bit about that or tell our viewers a little bit
about what that was like? You know, these empty
chair town halls, we've been doing them all over
the state in these Republican districts because
they will not show up. And what I can promise
you about Brad Knott is Brad Knott will not show
up for his constituents to answer questions.
Virginia Foxx was very clear about it. Another
North Carolina Republican member of Congress,
she said she's not going to do a town hall because
they're just going to yell at her. And of course,
when their job is to do whatever Donald Trump
tells you and to do what's best for Trump instead
of what's best for North Carolina, your constituents
are going to yell at you. When I was in Congress,
I did 16 town halls and I got people protested,
people yelled. I had tough questions, but I showed
up and answered them. And that's what is missing
here because Republicans know they can't answer
these questions. They can't talk about why Pete
Hegseth is a good secretary of defense. They
can't talk about these. blatant attacks on our
democracy. Donald Trump literally is accepting
a giant airplane from Qatar. Like he's just taking
it and he's going to have personal use of it
after he leaves the White House, too. Like that
that is exactly what's spelled out in the Constitution.
Do not accept gifts from foreign nations. I don't
know any bigger gift you could get than a huge
luxury airplane. So there's a lot to be upset
about. And if you ask any Republicans, they are
not going to be able to answer that question
in these town halls. But no, you know, my goal
is to get to every Republican congressional district
and do these. know empty chair town halls because
because they can't show up to answer these questions
yeah i i also can't picture a bigger gift that
could possibly violate the emoluments clause
quite like that so if you can find me one like
maybe a country i think that's the next step
up i mean just yeah like cartoon bags of cash
with a dollar sign on it And you know that plane
is bugged eight ways till Sunday. Yeah, I mean,
just there's so many things wrong with that.
And, you know, it's just crickets from folks
like Thom Tillis and others continue to do whatever
Trump tells them to do. And it's, you know, it's
funny, but it's really scary, too. And that's...
Interesting, too, because like like you were
saying before, it kind of all encompasses the
same problem that a lot of these Republicans
are basically just MAGA Republicans now that
they're just kind of kowtowing to whatever their
God Emperor Trump wants. It doesn't matter about
checks and balances, doesn't really matter about
separation of powers or anything like that. And
I pretty much already know the answer, but I
feel like we need to ask out of posterity, I
guess. If in 2028, when a new Democratic president
is elected, will you just go along with whatever
they say? You know, I think the question for
anybody who goes to the U .S. House, the Senate,
is your job is to represent your constituents,
do what's best for your state. So that's the
way I approach it. When we win this race and
get to the Senate, we're going to have Trump
in the White House for two years, and I hope
we're going to have somebody, you know, a Democrat
in the White House two years after that, who's
going to be able to bring back, you know, and
fix what will be an absolute mess from Trump.
I mean, they have just... crashing the federal
government, the bureaucracy. And folks here in
North Carolina are getting hurt already. I mean,
they're slashing funding for programs we rely
on in our state. You know, the VA, they are cutting
80 ,000 VA jobs nationwide. That's going to be
absolutely horrible for our veterans who need
good quality health care. Retirees who are counting
on Social Security, they're cutting 12 ,000 jobs
from the Social Security Administration. It's
going to be much harder to get that Social Security
check if there's any problems. Very rarely going
to be someone who's going to be answering the
phone anytime soon for folks. There are mountains
of these stories, and we are losing thousands
and thousands of good paying jobs as they're
slashing the EPA. Right by me and Kerry, we have
the... you know, Research Triangle Park, where
they're going to, you know, the 1 ,200 folks
who are studying how to make sure we have clean
air and clean water and doing other great things
there at that campus are going to be out of work.
I mean, I could go on and on about this, but
incredibly damaging. And, you know, I'm hopeful
we're going to make it. I know we will, but it's
going to take folks getting there and showing
up and fighting to protect this amazing, great
experiment in self -governance that hasn't even
made it 250 years here. So we've got a lot to
get excited about and to fight for. What is one
Senate rule that you would change? tomorrow,
if you could? I don't know. I mean, I spent my
time in the House, so I was more focused on House
rules. I can tell you the one thing that I think
would make a huge difference in the House right
now is they used to have, the House used to be
a place where the majority of the members of
the House would get their way. And that doesn't
happen anymore. You have the Hastert rule where
the Republicans want more than half of the majority
to support anything before they allow a vote.
So Hastert, a child pedophile who I think is
still in jail or maybe he passed away, but this
is the guy that they named the rule for, that
invented this rule, to be the Republican speaker.
And so if you've got... You know, 218 members
who want to vote for something, you can't get
it done. And so these discharge petitions are
controlled by the leadership, and they're made
public. You know, the way, if you want to have
a vote on a bill, you've got to have a public
vote. It used to be it was a private, a secret
vote. So one of the things for the House, at
least, that I think I would like to change is
you make discharge petitions anonymous, you know,
a secret vote, the way they used to be. This
was before Newt Gingrich. And that would allow
folks, you know, not to be able to hide and they'd
be able to actually get a vote on the things
that they want to vote for. So, you know, we
did a lot of work with, you know, a bipartisan
immigration and border security bill when I was
in the House. But the Republicans would never
let us get to the floor with the vote. This,
you know, this one rule change would have made
sure we could have had an up or down vote. Goodness.
It's insane to me just how one little rule can
screw so much up. It's ridiculous. Yeah, we've
gone over a few of those during the run of this
podcast. So for anybody who's listening right
now, make sure to finish this one and then go
back and listen to the other ones because we
broke down some really bad bills and House and
Senate rules from the North Carolina General
Assembly, which I'm sure Mr. Wiley Nickel here
knows a little bit about as well. Now, we only
have a few minutes left, so I wanted to ask you,
should we do the last question first, or do you
have another question? I was going to say, we
can do the last question, well, last, because
I think that would be a little wrap -up. But
who is one Democrat in office today that you
kind of look to for leadership? We've got a lot
of great members in the House and Senate. I worked
with a ton of folks during my time in the House.
And there's just so many good friends. You hate
to sort of name just a few of them. But, you
know, I think you've got a ton of great members
in North Carolina who are fighting hard. I really
enjoyed working with Adam Schiff in the House,
who's now in the Senate. Ruben Gallego, you know,
another great House member who's in the Senate.
So, you know, I kind of look to folks who are
able to do well in the kind of district that
I want in. Those are the people I spend a lot
of time with. And, you know, so, you know, Alyssa
Slotkin. Michigan, another, you know, great member
of the House who went to the Senate, flipping,
you know, states that Trump won, you know, for
Democrats. So I think, you know, folks who are
really focused on solving problems, those are
the members that I kind of spent a lot of time
working with and think, you know, kind of are
on the right track. We got one, like, really
hard -pressed question for you, so I hope you're
ready for this. What is your go -to cookout menu?
item the the whole like the whole menu or the
whole truck what's your go -to meal let me put
it that way i i think all right so so took out
number one that it is a scientific you know thing
here the later it is at night the better it tastes
so the longer you wait to go the better it's
going to taste but it's it's usually like you
know cheeseburger cajun fries oreo shake maybe
i'll get onion rings it depends it just again
it depends on how late it is Right. So if it's
later, are you getting a shake or are you waiting
until it's like the last possible minute? It
depends on how late it is at night. But that
is absolute proven scientific information there.
Later at night, the better it tastes. Is that
good campaign trail food or is it more like,
hey, maybe we should... Maybe we should wait
on the cookout until we're at the end of a week
or something. I mean, when you're running from
Murphy to Manio, you take what you can get. I've
been trying to pack some snacks and meals as
I'm traveling more. So like a banana and a peanut
butter and jelly often make it happen for me.
But we're a little more into Taco Bell lately.
We've got a lot of Taco Bell fans on the campaign.
So usually that's the late at night. fast food
that we end up with a little more right now gotcha
well congressman nickel it has been awesome to
get to talk to you and to get to know a little
bit more about what your campaign's about and
we wish you luck in both now and in 2026 and
if you could for us in five words or less could
you sum up what this senatorial campaign for
you is about? I'm not good at condensing. I can
tell you, for folks who want to learn about that
without a ton of words, visit wileynickel.com.
But the simple message, it's really simple here.
I mean, Donald Trump is screwing North Carolina
families. Tax cuts for billionaires is not helping.
We're focusing on solving problems, bringing
down the cost of housing, making sure we invest
in public education. affordable housing, affordable
childcare, middle class tax cuts. These are things
that will help folks. What Donald Trump is doing
is only helping his billionaire friends. And
that's a simple message. And we're seeing it
play out right now in Washington in real time.
So I think that's the simplest and quickest way
I can condense it for you. And I just hope, CJ,
afterwards, if there's a way that I can help
you get some money back from the federal government,
I will absolutely be glad to do it. Most people
don't have $750 ,000 they're trying to get back
from the IRS. But if you do, you know, you've
got someone in your corner. Good to know. That's
about it for this interview with Congressman
Wiley Nickel, who is currently running for Senate
in 2026 against the incumbent Republican Tom
Tillis. And if you want to help out his campaign.
Where do they need to go to donate?
wileynickel.com is our website, and at Wiley Nickel on pretty
much every social media platform. We're seeing
a lot of good growth with BlueSky. That's another
great place to visit as well. I know you guys
are there. I encourage folks to connect with
us. All right. Well, thank you, sir. Appreciate
you coming on with us. Appreciate your time.
You know what? Come back on after you win. It's
a promise. Awesome. All right. Awesome. Looking
forward to it. You guys, you're going to have
to come to Washington and do the interview in
the Senate. How about that? You know what? I
can't say no to that. I cannot say no to that.
That is a hard yes, no matter what. Lesson on
the road. I like it. Yeah. We'll see you in the
rotunda. Is that where we can do interviews?
Yeah, sure. All right. We'll make it happen.
Awesome. Thank you, sir. Appreciate your time.