WEBVTT 00:00:15.080 --> 00:00:18.140 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:18.140 --> 00:00:20.660 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:20.660 --> 00:00:23.960 with my friend Jim Finley. This is a project 00:00:23.960 --> 00:00:28.679 of www .beatitudescenter .org, where you can 00:00:28.679 --> 00:00:31.280 find many other podcasts and regular Zoom programs 00:00:31.280 --> 00:00:34.840 on the nonviolence of Jesus, practicing nonviolence, 00:00:34.840 --> 00:00:37.579 and working for a more just, more nonviolent 00:00:37.579 --> 00:00:40.619 world. So let's begin, as usual, with a little 00:00:40.619 --> 00:00:43.600 prayer. So I just invite everyone. Wherever you 00:00:43.600 --> 00:00:47.579 are, just to take a deep breath and to relax 00:00:47.579 --> 00:00:52.299 and to recenter yourself. And together let's 00:00:52.299 --> 00:00:55.039 enter into the presence of the God of peace who 00:00:55.039 --> 00:00:59.079 loves you infinitely and personally and everyone 00:00:59.079 --> 00:01:03.200 everywhere too. And we welcome the risen nonviolent 00:01:03.200 --> 00:01:06.659 Jesus with us. And just take a moment to ask 00:01:06.659 --> 00:01:09.890 for whatever grace you need. to follow the nonviolent 00:01:09.890 --> 00:01:17.909 Jesus more faithfully and to do God's will. God 00:01:17.909 --> 00:01:21.250 of peace, thank you for all the blessings of 00:01:21.250 --> 00:01:24.010 life, love, and peace that you give us. Be with 00:01:24.010 --> 00:01:27.750 us now as we reflect together on your call to 00:01:27.750 --> 00:01:30.950 follow the nonviolent Jesus in peace and work 00:01:30.950 --> 00:01:33.750 for a more just, more nonviolent world. Bless 00:01:33.750 --> 00:01:37.799 us. inspire us, disarm us, heal us, strengthen 00:01:37.799 --> 00:01:40.879 us, and send us out to do your will, to do our 00:01:40.879 --> 00:01:44.560 part to help end poverty, racism, war, injustice, 00:01:44.939 --> 00:01:47.859 nuclear weapons, environmental destruction, that 00:01:47.859 --> 00:01:51.000 we might be your beatitude people, your holy 00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:54.560 peacemakers, your gospel people who welcome your 00:01:54.560 --> 00:01:57.859 reign of universal love, nonviolence, and peace 00:01:57.859 --> 00:02:02.120 on earth. In Jesus' name, amen. Well, friends, 00:02:02.200 --> 00:02:04.500 it's a great blessing to welcome my friend Jim 00:02:04.500 --> 00:02:07.420 Finley, the revered teacher of contemplation 00:02:07.420 --> 00:02:11.680 and mysticism. As listeners probably know, when 00:02:11.680 --> 00:02:14.840 Jim was a teenager, he entered the Abbey of Gethsemane 00:02:14.840 --> 00:02:18.120 in Kentucky and was a novice and friend then 00:02:18.120 --> 00:02:21.659 of Thomas Merton. Eventually, he left the monastery, 00:02:21.860 --> 00:02:24.419 became a clinical psychologist, and opened his 00:02:24.419 --> 00:02:27.080 practice in Los Angeles, where he still lives 00:02:27.080 --> 00:02:30.509 today. He wrote, in my opinion, the first serious 00:02:30.509 --> 00:02:34.229 book about Merton's spirituality called Merton's 00:02:34.229 --> 00:02:37.050 Palace of Nowhere. He has taught and lectured 00:02:37.050 --> 00:02:40.370 on Merton, spirituality, and mysticism for over 00:02:40.370 --> 00:02:43.430 50 years while also engaging in his practice. 00:02:43.729 --> 00:02:46.270 And these days, he's a faculty member of Father 00:02:46.270 --> 00:02:49.310 Richard Rohr's Living School at the Center for 00:02:49.310 --> 00:02:52.370 Action and Contemplation, where he hosts a free, 00:02:52.530 --> 00:02:56.080 wildly popular podcast called Turning to the 00:02:56.080 --> 00:02:58.219 Mystics, which I urge everyone to listen to. 00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:01.400 Jim is the author of several other bestsellers, 00:03:01.400 --> 00:03:04.580 such as The Awakening Call, The Contemplative 00:03:04.580 --> 00:03:07.620 Heart, and his recent memoir, The Healing Path. 00:03:08.419 --> 00:03:12.219 This year, Orbis Books is launching a massive, 00:03:12.340 --> 00:03:16.409 I think, 10 -volume series by Jim. on the mystics, 00:03:16.449 --> 00:03:20.870 such as Teresa of Lisieux, Teresa of Avila, John 00:03:20.870 --> 00:03:23.610 of the Cross, and Meister Eckhart. And the first 00:03:23.610 --> 00:03:26.490 volume comes out in a few months on Thomas Merton. 00:03:27.129 --> 00:03:30.550 Jim did two wonderful Zoom presentations for 00:03:30.550 --> 00:03:33.530 the Beatitudes Center, which you can go and listen 00:03:33.530 --> 00:03:36.030 to, as tens of thousands of others have, at our 00:03:36.030 --> 00:03:39.650 free Beatitudes Center YouTube channel. I think 00:03:39.650 --> 00:03:43.889 you just sign in and write in. Beatitude Center 00:03:43.889 --> 00:03:47.150 channel, and it asks for your email, but it's 00:03:47.150 --> 00:03:50.050 all free. So I hope you'll listen to his previous 00:03:50.050 --> 00:03:54.150 Beatitude Center talks. Jim Finley, welcome to 00:03:54.150 --> 00:03:57.729 the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. Thank you. So glad 00:03:57.729 --> 00:04:00.750 to be together again and share these reflections 00:04:00.750 --> 00:04:04.569 with the listeners. Jim, I know everybody has 00:04:04.569 --> 00:04:07.169 asked you about this, and you've talked a lot 00:04:07.169 --> 00:04:09.569 about it, but just at the beginning, especially 00:04:09.569 --> 00:04:12.270 with your new book. coming out, if you just tell 00:04:12.270 --> 00:04:15.550 a little bit, however you want, about your story 00:04:15.550 --> 00:04:19.310 as a teenager entering the Abbey of Gethsemane 00:04:19.310 --> 00:04:21.829 and then meeting Merton and having him as a novice 00:04:21.829 --> 00:04:26.029 master and learning about God from him at such 00:04:26.029 --> 00:04:29.629 a young age. And he set you off on a course that 00:04:29.629 --> 00:04:37.779 helps so many people. Yes. My father was a violent 00:04:37.779 --> 00:04:40.439 alcoholic, so there's a lot of trauma in my home. 00:04:40.860 --> 00:04:44.720 And my mother was a devout Catholic, and she 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:46.800 would take us to Mass on Sunday. And I could 00:04:46.800 --> 00:04:49.519 tell her faith sustained her. I think it was 00:04:49.519 --> 00:04:51.600 through her, really, I think my faith sustained 00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:55.500 me. And when I was in a ninth grade religion 00:04:55.500 --> 00:04:57.759 class at the Catholic school I was going to in 00:04:57.759 --> 00:05:01.699 Akron, Ohio, the instructor mentioned monasteries 00:05:01.699 --> 00:05:04.720 and talked about Thomas Merton. I never heard 00:05:04.720 --> 00:05:08.079 of Thomas Merton about monasteries. And I was 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:12.420 so taken by what he was saying. I went that day 00:05:12.420 --> 00:05:14.240 to the school library. They had one book there 00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:16.920 by Merton, The Sign of Jonas, which is a journal 00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:19.899 he kept in the monastery. And on the very first 00:05:19.899 --> 00:05:22.899 page of that journal, Merton says, as for me, 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:26.519 I have been one desire, the desire for solitude, 00:05:26.540 --> 00:05:30.139 to disappear into the secret of God's face. And 00:05:30.139 --> 00:05:32.060 at 14 years old, I didn't know what it meant. 00:05:32.360 --> 00:05:34.939 But the depth in which he spoke of his own longing 00:05:34.939 --> 00:05:38.610 for God, access that longing in me. And I got 00:05:38.610 --> 00:05:41.410 my own copy through the four years of high school. 00:05:41.569 --> 00:05:44.529 That book sustained me in the trauma to the point 00:05:44.529 --> 00:05:46.790 that when I graduated, I went to the monastery 00:05:46.790 --> 00:05:49.209 and lived there as a monk for six years. It had 00:05:49.209 --> 00:05:53.089 a profound effect on me. And Thomas Merton, in 00:05:53.089 --> 00:05:56.149 his role of master novice, has guided me in the 00:05:56.149 --> 00:05:58.350 contemplative life and in the classical texts 00:05:58.350 --> 00:06:01.029 of the mystics. And it just radicalized me. It 00:06:01.029 --> 00:06:03.550 just had a profound lasting effect on my whole 00:06:03.550 --> 00:06:09.319 life. How did he radicalize you? First of all, 00:06:09.319 --> 00:06:12.519 I think the cloistered life itself radicalizes, 00:06:12.519 --> 00:06:14.620 if you let it. You know, it's cloistered. There's 00:06:14.620 --> 00:06:17.439 no active ministry. Getting up at 2 .30 in the 00:06:17.439 --> 00:06:20.040 morning, chanting the Psalms, going to bed at 00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:22.620 7 o 'clock at night. So it's a life of silence, 00:06:22.759 --> 00:06:26.240 simplicity, and prayer, seeking God in the ordinariness 00:06:26.240 --> 00:06:29.959 of our days. And finding in the mercy of Jesus 00:06:29.959 --> 00:06:33.160 what sustains us in our own fragility. And so 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:35.579 it's a whole way of life that's devoted to that. 00:06:36.120 --> 00:06:39.540 And so what he did was he encouraged me in my 00:06:39.540 --> 00:06:41.879 own longings and my own desire, the experiences 00:06:41.879 --> 00:06:46.000 that I was having of God. And just led me to 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:48.819 keep leaning even deeper into it and guiding 00:06:48.819 --> 00:06:51.680 me. And then he saw in the classical text of 00:06:51.680 --> 00:06:53.839 the mystics, John of the Cross and Teresa and 00:06:53.839 --> 00:06:57.279 Eckhart. Like trustworthy guidance, they're trying 00:06:57.279 --> 00:07:00.620 to help us to discern the signs that we're being 00:07:00.620 --> 00:07:04.060 led into these more unitive states of union with 00:07:04.060 --> 00:07:07.420 God. And he said once to the novices that the 00:07:07.420 --> 00:07:09.319 cloistered monastic life is carefully designed 00:07:09.319 --> 00:07:11.819 to cultivate it. But there are people in the 00:07:11.819 --> 00:07:13.819 world that are being drawn into these unitive 00:07:13.819 --> 00:07:16.240 states, and they have no one to help them understand 00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:18.759 what's happening to them and how to cooperate 00:07:18.759 --> 00:07:21.779 with it. So when I left the monastery, I found 00:07:21.779 --> 00:07:25.149 that that was true. And that's what really led 00:07:25.149 --> 00:07:27.430 me to start giving retreats and running Merton's 00:07:27.430 --> 00:07:32.310 Palace. It's been a calling for me. Can you say 00:07:32.310 --> 00:07:36.470 a word, too, if you would, about what Merton 00:07:36.470 --> 00:07:39.089 was like for you as a spiritual director and 00:07:39.089 --> 00:07:42.670 talking to you personally about guiding you to 00:07:42.670 --> 00:07:49.709 God? Well, I thought it was extraordinary. He 00:07:49.709 --> 00:07:51.810 had such a big effect on me because I was absorbed 00:07:51.810 --> 00:07:54.370 in his. both through high school and I read some 00:07:54.370 --> 00:07:57.370 of his other things. I saw him as a living mystic. 00:07:57.410 --> 00:08:02.170 And so I felt so honored to be in his presence 00:08:02.170 --> 00:08:05.769 and to be with him this way. And I trusted his 00:08:05.769 --> 00:08:08.970 guidance this way. And I'll share something that 00:08:08.970 --> 00:08:12.949 I, in looking back, we were together, I saw him 00:08:12.949 --> 00:08:15.449 one -on -one every other week for about three 00:08:15.449 --> 00:08:18.430 years. And I realized that in all of our sessions, 00:08:18.610 --> 00:08:22.100 it was under the auspices of three things. happened 00:08:22.100 --> 00:08:25.379 over and over again in our sessions three questions 00:08:25.379 --> 00:08:28.100 his first question would always be how's it going 00:08:28.100 --> 00:08:30.899 and what he wanted me to do is be honest with 00:08:30.899 --> 00:08:33.659 him like what's it like living here do you feel 00:08:33.659 --> 00:08:36.480 you belong here does it sit well with you like 00:08:36.480 --> 00:08:38.960 be honest with me he was always very practical 00:08:38.960 --> 00:08:42.919 and honest and real that way his second question 00:08:42.919 --> 00:08:46.730 was how's it going And you're surrendered to 00:08:46.730 --> 00:08:49.950 God who accessed your heart and brought you to 00:08:49.950 --> 00:08:52.210 this place that God might transform you into 00:08:52.210 --> 00:08:56.649 himself. Wow. That was the second. He says that's 00:08:56.649 --> 00:08:59.330 what monasteries are for. That's what monasteries 00:08:59.330 --> 00:09:02.789 are for. The surrender to God. How to surrender 00:09:02.789 --> 00:09:06.490 to God who accessed your heart and brought you 00:09:06.490 --> 00:09:09.190 to this place that God might transform you into 00:09:09.190 --> 00:09:13.840 himself. So how's that part going? Wow. And that's 00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:16.340 only the second question. Yeah, and the third 00:09:16.340 --> 00:09:21.379 question is how's it going in discovering the 00:09:21.379 --> 00:09:24.279 depth of the second question percolating up through 00:09:24.279 --> 00:09:27.159 the messy details of the first question? Because 00:09:27.159 --> 00:09:30.740 you're just you. In other words, the infinite 00:09:30.740 --> 00:09:35.019 love of God is incarnate in your endless ordinariness. 00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:38.600 Thomas Merton once said, I realize the only way 00:09:38.600 --> 00:09:41.100 I'm ever going to be at peace is to accept myself 00:09:41.100 --> 00:09:44.240 as I am. Because there's very little chance that 00:09:44.240 --> 00:09:47.980 I'm ever going to be anybody else. And God's 00:09:47.980 --> 00:09:50.759 not waiting for me to find some state of perfection 00:09:50.759 --> 00:09:52.980 to love me. God's infinitely in love with me 00:09:52.980 --> 00:09:55.759 just as I am. And so he always had that kind 00:09:55.759 --> 00:09:59.700 of radical, humble, you know, tone to all of 00:09:59.700 --> 00:10:02.019 it. And I just absorbed it and walked with it 00:10:02.019 --> 00:10:06.070 and changed my life. That's so beautiful. What 00:10:06.070 --> 00:10:10.090 is it, almost 60 years later? Here you are launching 00:10:10.090 --> 00:10:13.450 this new series of books on the mystics with 00:10:13.450 --> 00:10:17.929 Orbis Books. And you're hosting this very popular 00:10:17.929 --> 00:10:23.230 podcast on the mystics. And your first volume, 00:10:23.330 --> 00:10:25.590 which is coming out pretty soon, is on Merton. 00:10:25.710 --> 00:10:29.149 I wonder if you'd just tell us a little bit about 00:10:29.149 --> 00:10:32.629 this first volume about Merton as a teacher of 00:10:32.629 --> 00:10:36.629 God and a mystic. What this is, is that Richard 00:10:36.629 --> 00:10:38.870 asked me to be one of the core teachers of the 00:10:38.870 --> 00:10:42.490 Living School. And Kirsten Oates attended, and 00:10:42.490 --> 00:10:45.610 then they put her on the faculty. She and I got 00:10:45.610 --> 00:10:48.549 together, and we host this podcast, Turning to 00:10:48.549 --> 00:10:51.470 the Mystics. I think we just finished our 13th 00:10:51.470 --> 00:10:54.269 mystic. We just did Teresa of Lisieux. And I'm 00:10:54.269 --> 00:10:56.370 going through all these mystics that affected 00:10:56.370 --> 00:10:59.350 my whole life. Like speaking from my heart about 00:10:59.350 --> 00:11:01.809 the mystic and how it sheds light on the ordinariness 00:11:01.809 --> 00:11:04.889 of our lives. And so there's these audio sets 00:11:04.889 --> 00:11:07.590 people can listen to. So what Orbis is doing 00:11:07.590 --> 00:11:10.230 is taking each audio set and turning it into 00:11:10.230 --> 00:11:13.809 a hardcover, into a book. And so it's going to 00:11:13.809 --> 00:11:17.269 be a series of volumes of the Turning to the 00:11:17.269 --> 00:11:19.889 Mystics talks written as a book. And so the first 00:11:19.889 --> 00:11:23.230 volume is on Thomas Merton, which is coming out 00:11:23.230 --> 00:11:26.870 very soon now, actually. That's great. Congratulations. 00:11:27.429 --> 00:11:32.399 I think I read your... best -selling book, Merton's 00:11:32.399 --> 00:11:35.039 Palace of Nowhere, which, as I recall, came out 00:11:35.039 --> 00:11:38.480 in the mid-'70s when it came out a long time 00:11:38.480 --> 00:11:43.200 ago. I don't have a copy now. I wish I did. I 00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:45.460 mean, I remember loving it, as everybody did. 00:11:45.600 --> 00:11:48.960 But tell us now what you meant by that extraordinary 00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:53.419 title. Yes. You know, what the book's about, 00:11:53.639 --> 00:11:56.279 really, is I wrote it after I left the monastery, 00:11:56.500 --> 00:12:00.429 is Thomas Merton's insight. into the ancient 00:12:00.429 --> 00:12:03.870 wisdom of mystical Christianity, of our ultimate 00:12:03.870 --> 00:12:06.789 identity, hidden with Christ and God before the 00:12:06.789 --> 00:12:11.690 origins of the universe. And so the spiritual 00:12:11.690 --> 00:12:16.750 life is the path that heals us, hinders us from 00:12:16.750 --> 00:12:19.110 being more habitually established in that, that 00:12:19.110 --> 00:12:22.190 we subsist in God like light subsists in flame. 00:12:23.049 --> 00:12:25.490 Whereas Merton puts it, when Jesus says I and 00:12:25.490 --> 00:12:29.149 I say I, it's the same I. So the spiritual life, 00:12:29.169 --> 00:12:31.870 the contemplative way of life then, is a way 00:12:31.870 --> 00:12:35.070 of life that leads us to that unitive state. 00:12:35.370 --> 00:12:38.009 So the title itself, The Palace of Nowhere, is 00:12:38.009 --> 00:12:41.049 that Merton was, one of his insights was the 00:12:41.049 --> 00:12:43.470 unity of the mystical traditions of all the world's 00:12:43.470 --> 00:12:47.250 great religions. And so in the Taoist tradition 00:12:47.250 --> 00:12:51.580 in China. of Taoism, most known for Laozi, the 00:12:51.580 --> 00:12:54.240 Tao Te Ching. The Tao that can be spoken is not 00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:57.100 the eternal Tao. So the Tao is like the flowing 00:12:57.100 --> 00:13:00.340 river of divinity that courses the interiority 00:13:00.340 --> 00:13:03.480 of all things. And so how can we find our way 00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:06.399 to that and live in it? Well, another Taoist 00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:11.679 teacher is a Chuang Tzu. Yes. And so Chuang Tzu 00:13:11.679 --> 00:13:14.539 says, come with me to the palace of nowhere, 00:13:14.620 --> 00:13:18.200 all the many things are one. And so Merton, so 00:13:18.200 --> 00:13:23.139 I saw that as a metaphor for the transubjective 00:13:23.139 --> 00:13:27.779 unitive experience of the true self in God. And 00:13:27.779 --> 00:13:30.299 that's how I took that title. That's great. That's 00:13:30.299 --> 00:13:32.590 a beautiful book. and he thought it was one of 00:13:32.590 --> 00:13:35.750 his favorites out of his 150 books, The Way of 00:13:35.750 --> 00:13:39.169 Charles Hsu. Yes, a little short, little... He 00:13:39.169 --> 00:13:42.269 says, Trompson says a couple of things. He says, 00:13:42.389 --> 00:13:44.610 one, he says, anyone can think of the absence 00:13:44.610 --> 00:13:47.669 of nothing. Excuse me. Anyone can think of the 00:13:47.669 --> 00:13:50.750 absence of something, but who can understand 00:13:50.750 --> 00:13:54.730 the absence of nothing? And another thing that 00:13:54.730 --> 00:13:58.629 Chuang Tzu said, which is great, he said, imagine 00:13:58.629 --> 00:14:01.110 the river. Imagine there's a huge torrential 00:14:01.110 --> 00:14:03.850 flood for days and days and days. And the river 00:14:03.850 --> 00:14:07.070 floods the banks on both sides, floods the farmlands, 00:14:07.090 --> 00:14:11.070 the villages, and so on. So Chuang Tzu, he personifies 00:14:11.070 --> 00:14:13.269 the river. And the river, he says, rolls his 00:14:13.269 --> 00:14:16.090 eyes and says, look at me rolling along like 00:14:16.090 --> 00:14:18.789 this. See how powerful I am. He says, until he 00:14:18.789 --> 00:14:21.509 gets to the ocean. And when he gets to the ocean, 00:14:21.629 --> 00:14:25.279 that's the Tao. He comes into the infinity that 00:14:25.279 --> 00:14:28.379 impoverishes his imagined bigness. And that's 00:14:28.379 --> 00:14:30.039 what happens when we're mystically awakened. 00:14:30.460 --> 00:14:33.080 So anyways, he's a lovely teacher. Wow, that's 00:14:33.080 --> 00:14:37.179 so beautiful. You and I have talked about privately 00:14:37.179 --> 00:14:40.059 a lot of the saints and mystics, and we're both 00:14:40.059 --> 00:14:46.379 devotees and fans of St. Therese of Lisieux outside 00:14:46.379 --> 00:14:51.429 of Paris. And so I just thought it would be great 00:14:51.429 --> 00:14:53.309 if you could say, because I know she's going 00:14:53.309 --> 00:14:55.570 to be, you've just finished doing a series on 00:14:55.570 --> 00:14:57.250 her and she's going to be one of your books. 00:14:57.590 --> 00:15:01.509 Any key points for us, for our listeners about 00:15:01.509 --> 00:15:03.690 her life and in particularly the little way of 00:15:03.690 --> 00:15:07.149 merciful love, which I always think of as another 00:15:07.149 --> 00:15:11.149 angle on what, you know, Gandhi and Dr. King 00:15:11.149 --> 00:15:13.970 called nonviolence. Yeah, you know, her writing 00:15:13.970 --> 00:15:17.789 is a story of a soul. She was in the 1800s in 00:15:17.789 --> 00:15:21.129 France, and she entered the cloistered Carmelite 00:15:21.129 --> 00:15:24.549 monastery when she was just 14 years old. And 00:15:24.549 --> 00:15:27.789 she was asked to write the story of her spiritual 00:15:27.789 --> 00:15:30.590 life. That's how we have her teachings. And she 00:15:30.590 --> 00:15:35.029 died of tuberculosis just a few years later, 00:15:35.190 --> 00:15:39.070 a painful death. And so just to sing a lot of 00:15:39.070 --> 00:15:42.110 few things, I think she's so stunning. She wasn't 00:15:42.110 --> 00:15:45.009 an ecstatic mystic. She liked visions like Teresa 00:15:45.009 --> 00:15:47.909 of Avila. It was almost like a mystical consciousness 00:15:47.909 --> 00:15:51.629 of Jesus' oneness with her in the ordinariness 00:15:51.629 --> 00:15:54.950 of our lives. Yes, that's it. That's the key. 00:15:55.029 --> 00:15:57.710 So she talked about the little way, like to pick 00:15:57.710 --> 00:16:00.570 up a pin for Jesus. And if you do it with love, 00:16:00.870 --> 00:16:03.870 the very love of Jesus is incarnate in picking 00:16:03.870 --> 00:16:06.389 up that little pin. And that little act of love 00:16:06.389 --> 00:16:08.470 radiates and touches the whole world in ways 00:16:08.470 --> 00:16:10.690 you don't understand. That was her teaching. 00:16:10.990 --> 00:16:14.090 It's really the same as Thich Nhat Hanh in terms 00:16:14.090 --> 00:16:17.309 of mindfulness. But she connected it to Jesus 00:16:17.309 --> 00:16:21.259 and oneness with all people. And she's like Merton, 00:16:21.299 --> 00:16:23.379 too. You know, Merton has a thing on the side 00:16:23.379 --> 00:16:26.240 of Jonas. He's lying on his bed at night. He 00:16:26.240 --> 00:16:29.100 has insomnia. Yeah. And he says, suddenly the 00:16:29.100 --> 00:16:32.480 bed becomes an altar. And in a distant city somewhere, 00:16:32.580 --> 00:16:35.419 someone is suddenly able to pray. He said, maybe 00:16:35.419 --> 00:16:37.419 the people whose lives we will touch the most 00:16:37.419 --> 00:16:39.480 deeply are people we won't meet until after we 00:16:39.480 --> 00:16:42.340 are dead. So there's a strong, like the mystical 00:16:42.340 --> 00:16:45.080 body that we're all woven into each other. So 00:16:45.080 --> 00:16:48.340 our hidden fidelity to love is the love that 00:16:48.340 --> 00:16:52.019 radiates out and touches the whole world. Another 00:16:52.019 --> 00:16:55.240 thing she said, this was an example. She said, 00:16:55.279 --> 00:16:59.019 she wanted to be a saint. But she realized how 00:16:59.019 --> 00:17:02.600 weak she was. So she turned to Jesus and she 00:17:02.600 --> 00:17:04.680 said, you're going to have to be my holiness. 00:17:05.420 --> 00:17:08.680 And I know you are because you in Jesus gave 00:17:08.680 --> 00:17:13.160 yourself to me in my littleness. It's my very 00:17:13.160 --> 00:17:15.539 littleness that you've identified with. My very 00:17:15.539 --> 00:17:19.539 ordinariness is the divinity of you this way. 00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:22.460 And then last, just say one more example. She 00:17:22.460 --> 00:17:27.279 said, how rare it is to find souls. I've learned 00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:30.359 not to base their potential for union with God 00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:34.380 with their progress in overcoming obstacles and 00:17:34.380 --> 00:17:37.859 reaching holiness, but rather how rare it is 00:17:37.859 --> 00:17:40.920 that their sole basis is God's infinite love 00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:43.079 for them and their inability to get past their 00:17:43.079 --> 00:17:48.480 obstacles. Because the word became flesh and 00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:51.160 dwelt among us. It's the divinity of the broken 00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:55.269 place itself deeply accepted. That's Jesus. Jesus 00:17:55.269 --> 00:17:59.710 is God's response to us. She was so far ahead 00:17:59.710 --> 00:18:04.109 of her time. And the first great saint writer 00:18:04.109 --> 00:18:08.529 to talk about the absolute ordinariness and the 00:18:08.529 --> 00:18:12.869 spectacular presence of God, which is available 00:18:12.869 --> 00:18:16.009 in every ordinary moment, and especially in our 00:18:16.009 --> 00:18:19.910 brokenness, if we enter into the love of Christ 00:18:19.910 --> 00:18:21.730 in that moment. That's what you're trying to 00:18:21.730 --> 00:18:25.660 tell us, right? I'll put it another way. I would 00:18:25.660 --> 00:18:27.640 say that each of the saints and mystics down 00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:30.180 through the ages in his or her own way are saying 00:18:30.180 --> 00:18:34.940 that. In other words, it doesn't say that the 00:18:34.940 --> 00:18:37.579 word became humanity and dwelt among us, but 00:18:37.579 --> 00:18:41.170 the word became flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus 00:18:41.170 --> 00:18:44.130 is God's response to us in our dilemma. And he 00:18:44.130 --> 00:18:46.849 walks with us and he finds us in the broken places. 00:18:47.730 --> 00:18:50.589 Deeply accepted is the divinization of our hearts 00:18:50.589 --> 00:18:55.230 this way. And I think it's the holiness of, we're 00:18:55.230 --> 00:18:57.009 used to saying in the monastery, is there a Christian 00:18:57.009 --> 00:18:58.890 in the house? Raise your hand. You know, it's 00:18:58.890 --> 00:19:03.069 the essence of the gospel. And it's, you know, 00:19:03.089 --> 00:19:05.309 we're trying to find our way to be habitually 00:19:05.309 --> 00:19:08.799 stabilized in it and live it in the world. So 00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:11.740 Therese is the little Teresa, and then you've 00:19:11.740 --> 00:19:14.960 studied and talked a lot about the great, famous 00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:17.119 doctor of the church, although Therese of Lisieux 00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:19.640 is now a doctor too, the great St. Teresa of 00:19:19.640 --> 00:19:24.200 Avila from Spain. One of the greatest mystics 00:19:24.200 --> 00:19:26.980 in all religions and teachers, whoever it was. 00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:30.359 And I know very little, I'm ashamed to say, of 00:19:30.359 --> 00:19:33.119 Teresa of Avila. And so could you just say a 00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:36.660 few words to me at my kindergarten level? Any 00:19:36.660 --> 00:19:39.680 key lessons about the great Teresa of Avila? 00:19:40.259 --> 00:19:44.160 Teresa of Avila lived in Spain, 16th century. 00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:49.119 And she belonged to the Carmelite order of nuns. 00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:52.440 And she helped reform the order, the Discalx 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:54.640 Carmelites, reform the order back to a life of 00:19:54.640 --> 00:19:57.539 more poverty, simplicity, and prayer. And that's 00:19:57.539 --> 00:19:59.559 the Discalx Carmelites. And that's the order 00:19:59.559 --> 00:20:02.099 that Teresa of Lisieux belonged to in France 00:20:02.099 --> 00:20:05.619 centuries later. And so Teresa of Lisieux, she's 00:20:05.619 --> 00:20:08.319 16th century. And to single out one thing about 00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:10.920 her teachings, toward the end of her life, she 00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:13.140 was asked to write a book on prayer. And she 00:20:13.140 --> 00:20:16.380 wrote a book called The Interior Castle. And 00:20:16.380 --> 00:20:18.940 she said, it's a lovely book. It's in the podcast. 00:20:19.019 --> 00:20:22.220 We did it in the series. She said it came to 00:20:22.220 --> 00:20:25.819 her to think of our soul as a huge, an immense 00:20:25.819 --> 00:20:30.940 castle made of crystal or diamond. And that God 00:20:30.940 --> 00:20:34.740 is living in the innermost hidden center of our 00:20:34.740 --> 00:20:37.000 own soul. The kingdom of heaven is within you. 00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:39.980 And so God, whom the whole universe cannot contain, 00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:43.490 is inside of you. This way. And so if you think 00:20:43.490 --> 00:20:46.009 of heaven as where God lives, your soul is God's 00:20:46.009 --> 00:20:50.089 heaven. This way. And she said, imagine your 00:20:50.089 --> 00:20:54.230 soul is seven concentric circles going out. So 00:20:54.230 --> 00:20:56.490 the seventh innermost circle is where God is 00:20:56.490 --> 00:20:59.730 waiting in the center of your soul in and beyond 00:20:59.730 --> 00:21:04.029 yourself. And each circle going out is an increasing 00:21:04.029 --> 00:21:07.309 degree of surrendered transformation in Jesus. 00:21:08.490 --> 00:21:10.130 And so she says, some people don't even know 00:21:10.130 --> 00:21:12.430 they have a soul. They're so caught up in the 00:21:12.430 --> 00:21:15.390 externals of life. She said, but things happen, 00:21:15.470 --> 00:21:18.829 love found, love lost. And you kind of serendipitously 00:21:18.829 --> 00:21:21.670 stumble into the interiority of your own soul. 00:21:21.930 --> 00:21:24.109 And so the first mansion is where you first get 00:21:24.109 --> 00:21:27.769 your bearings. And each mansion is then you go 00:21:27.769 --> 00:21:30.549 a little deeper, transformed in love. And the 00:21:30.549 --> 00:21:32.809 first three mansions are really psychological, 00:21:32.890 --> 00:21:36.519 spiritual maturity. this way the fourth mansion 00:21:36.519 --> 00:21:39.279 is where she starts where the mystical life starts 00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:42.180 i'll give one example and she's writing this 00:21:42.180 --> 00:21:45.420 to help us recognize that maybe we're having 00:21:45.420 --> 00:21:47.839 this experience but it's so subtle we don't recognize 00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:50.859 the implications of it she said imagine you're 00:21:50.859 --> 00:21:53.259 sitting there in spiritual reading you have the 00:21:53.259 --> 00:21:57.279 scriptures are open and and she said also you 00:21:57.279 --> 00:21:59.619 get the feeling that you're praying to god somewhere 00:21:59.619 --> 00:22:03.049 far off like our father who art in heaven And 00:22:03.049 --> 00:22:05.390 also it takes effort because you're dealing with 00:22:05.390 --> 00:22:08.230 distractions and so on. And she said, as you're 00:22:08.230 --> 00:22:10.309 sitting there this way in devotional sincerity, 00:22:10.730 --> 00:22:13.430 she's all of a sudden, there's a sudden shift 00:22:13.430 --> 00:22:16.250 in your awareness. And you get the feeling that 00:22:16.250 --> 00:22:19.329 God's not somewhere far off, but God's flowing 00:22:19.329 --> 00:22:21.890 into you from some hidden place down in the hidden 00:22:21.890 --> 00:22:24.970 depths of yourself. And God's flowing into you 00:22:24.970 --> 00:22:28.329 without effort, like a quiet flow of divinity 00:22:28.329 --> 00:22:30.609 into the depths of yourself. Very subtle, very, 00:22:30.670 --> 00:22:33.910 very subtle. And she says, imagine a basin filling 00:22:33.910 --> 00:22:37.130 with water. And she's comparing God's presence 00:22:37.130 --> 00:22:39.970 to water. And the basin fills up till it overflows. 00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:43.299 But what if there was a basin that instead of 00:22:43.299 --> 00:22:45.440 overflowing, the basin kept getting bigger and 00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:47.640 bigger and bigger? And you realize that's what's 00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:50.039 happening to your heart. As you're sitting there 00:22:50.039 --> 00:22:53.380 in your ordinariness, your own heart is being 00:22:53.380 --> 00:22:55.680 enlarged to the boundaryless proportions of the 00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:58.180 infinite love flowing into it. You surrender 00:22:58.180 --> 00:23:00.279 to that, that it might have its way with you. 00:23:00.380 --> 00:23:04.420 That's how she talks. Wow. Yeah. It's just really 00:23:04.420 --> 00:23:10.690 great. Yeah. Jim. The way I've listened to you 00:23:10.690 --> 00:23:14.359 over the years and... Here, I read you talk about 00:23:14.359 --> 00:23:17.960 Merton and all these great saints and the history 00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:20.380 of mysticism and contemplation and so forth. 00:23:20.779 --> 00:23:22.980 Everything for you, like nobody else I know, 00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:25.920 is you're trying to talk about God and lead us 00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:30.079 to God. This is an outrageous question, but here 00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:32.980 goes. What do you want us to know about God? 00:23:34.740 --> 00:23:39.240 I'm a name dropper, as you know. Tell me about 00:23:39.240 --> 00:23:50.529 God, Jim. Here's the way I would put it. When 00:23:50.529 --> 00:23:54.250 we read the scriptures in a contemplative, prayerful 00:23:54.250 --> 00:23:57.009 way about God, beginning first with the mystery 00:23:57.009 --> 00:24:00.230 of creation, in the first words of the Torah, 00:24:00.369 --> 00:24:03.289 in the beginning God said, let there be light, 00:24:03.369 --> 00:24:06.150 let there be stones and trees and stars, and 00:24:06.150 --> 00:24:08.430 so on. Then let there be the human person. Let 00:24:08.430 --> 00:24:11.369 us make the human person in our image and likeness. 00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:13.859 So here, this is God. I would put it this way. 00:24:14.160 --> 00:24:18.059 That ultimately speaking, just one thing is happening. 00:24:18.559 --> 00:24:22.619 The infinite presence of God is presencing itself. 00:24:23.380 --> 00:24:27.200 It's pouring itself out and giving itself away 00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:32.980 whole and complete in and as the intimate immediacy 00:24:32.980 --> 00:24:36.599 of our very presence, the presence of others 00:24:36.599 --> 00:24:39.579 and all things in our nothingness without God. 00:24:39.740 --> 00:24:42.769 That's God. That if we think of God, quoting 00:24:42.769 --> 00:24:45.829 Meister Eckhart, we think of God as generosity. 00:24:46.289 --> 00:24:49.109 Because the generosity of the infinite is infinite. 00:24:49.369 --> 00:24:53.329 And we are the generosity of God. We're the song 00:24:53.329 --> 00:24:57.390 that God sings. And this is who we are as persons. 00:24:57.430 --> 00:25:00.990 This is the person that we are. Then God takes 00:25:00.990 --> 00:25:04.170 that as a capacity and makes it real by giving 00:25:04.170 --> 00:25:07.119 it a nature. It's a capacity, but it needs to 00:25:07.119 --> 00:25:10.279 be actualized by living it. So the mythic story 00:25:10.279 --> 00:25:12.759 of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, they were 00:25:12.759 --> 00:25:16.740 like God. The human nature is reason, science, 00:25:16.819 --> 00:25:20.109 and all of that. Originally, the greatest thing 00:25:20.109 --> 00:25:22.789 about human nature is the capacity to realize 00:25:22.789 --> 00:25:25.849 the person that we are, that their nature was 00:25:25.849 --> 00:25:29.089 aglow with divinity. And next, he gave them the 00:25:29.089 --> 00:25:31.750 gift of freedom because love is never imposed, 00:25:31.849 --> 00:25:35.109 it's always offered. God wants us to freely say 00:25:35.109 --> 00:25:37.910 yes and give ourselves to God. It is freely given 00:25:37.910 --> 00:25:41.029 to us as our very self. The mystery of the fall 00:25:41.029 --> 00:25:44.829 is trying to be like God without God. And we're 00:25:44.829 --> 00:25:47.930 caught in that. Because we're caught in the traumatized 00:25:47.930 --> 00:25:52.349 capacity to be surrendered over to the divinity 00:25:52.349 --> 00:25:55.569 of ourselves. And Jesus is God's response to 00:25:55.569 --> 00:26:00.869 that. In Jesus, God descends and goes as low 00:26:00.869 --> 00:26:04.250 as it needs to go to find and meet and walk with 00:26:04.250 --> 00:26:07.710 us as invincibly precious in the ways that we 00:26:07.710 --> 00:26:10.430 lose our way in our own life. And that's the 00:26:10.430 --> 00:26:12.589 gospel. That's the good news of Jesus Christ. 00:26:14.839 --> 00:26:17.559 Wow. I've heard you use the word surrender several 00:26:17.559 --> 00:26:21.319 times today so far. And I sent you, I don't know 00:26:21.319 --> 00:26:24.359 if you have it, my new book, Universal Love, 00:26:24.440 --> 00:26:26.180 Surrendering to the God of Peace. You won't remember 00:26:26.180 --> 00:26:29.220 this, but I told you that I've been journeying 00:26:29.220 --> 00:26:31.960 on that these last years. And to total surrender, 00:26:32.099 --> 00:26:34.960 not my will, your will be done. As the heart 00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:39.400 of the gospel and the spiritual life. Can you 00:26:39.400 --> 00:26:41.940 say a word specifically? Because I'm so interested 00:26:41.940 --> 00:26:48.339 in it. It's all about free will and complete 00:26:48.339 --> 00:26:52.859 surrender to God. And I was not that bright. 00:26:52.980 --> 00:26:56.180 I thought all my life, well, hey, I'm surrendered 00:26:56.180 --> 00:27:00.039 to God. And now I find out like maybe 1%. You 00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:02.079 know, I'm still trying to run the show. Can you 00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:05.180 say a little bit about surrendering ourselves 00:27:05.180 --> 00:27:08.400 to God completely? That's what Merton told you. 00:27:08.460 --> 00:27:10.500 That's what Therese of Lisieux and Therese of 00:27:10.500 --> 00:27:15.660 Avila talk about. And you? Well, this is my sense. 00:27:15.720 --> 00:27:18.259 I'll put it in the imagery of the gospel. Jesus 00:27:18.259 --> 00:27:21.720 often taught this in parables or stories. So 00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:23.500 the parable we all know is the parable of the 00:27:23.500 --> 00:27:27.599 prodigal son. Right. And he's trying to say this 00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:30.720 is what God's like. So there's this very person 00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:33.200 of great wealth and power, two sons, and one 00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:36.079 months to the father's sadness, once his inheritance, 00:27:36.380 --> 00:27:38.799 and he goes off and squanders it, loses all of 00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:43.829 it in a tragic way. So the son lost so much. 00:27:43.890 --> 00:27:46.730 He lost the inheritance. He certainly lost a 00:27:46.730 --> 00:27:49.750 sense of himself, the shame. And so he comes 00:27:49.750 --> 00:27:53.049 sheepishly back home. And he's kind of memorizing 00:27:53.049 --> 00:27:54.829 what he's going to tell. He knows it's too much 00:27:54.829 --> 00:27:58.150 to let his father accept him back again as a 00:27:58.150 --> 00:28:02.069 son. But just maybe his father would let him 00:28:02.069 --> 00:28:03.730 maybe live in a little tent behind the garage 00:28:03.730 --> 00:28:06.609 or something. And he's coming back. And here 00:28:06.609 --> 00:28:09.349 all along, Jesus says, every day the father's 00:28:09.349 --> 00:28:12.309 been waiting, waiting for him on the road. And 00:28:12.309 --> 00:28:15.049 when he sees his son coming, he doesn't even 00:28:15.049 --> 00:28:17.589 wait for the son to get to the door. He tells 00:28:17.589 --> 00:28:21.690 the servants to start a great feast. And he rushes 00:28:21.690 --> 00:28:24.210 out on the road, puts a ring on his son's finger 00:28:24.210 --> 00:28:26.990 and hugs him. The son is trying to speak out 00:28:26.990 --> 00:28:30.049 his apologies. The father doesn't even need to 00:28:30.049 --> 00:28:34.109 hear it. Because all of your failings are irrelevant. 00:28:34.329 --> 00:28:37.890 The question is this. He lost so much, but did 00:28:37.890 --> 00:28:40.069 he lose so much that he lost his father's love 00:28:40.069 --> 00:28:43.609 for him? And we can never lose God's love for 00:28:43.609 --> 00:28:50.730 us. And that's what God's like. And so this idea 00:28:50.730 --> 00:28:54.549 that a complete surrender, God is, in Jesus, 00:28:54.589 --> 00:28:59.619 is God's complete surrender to us. And we're 00:28:59.619 --> 00:29:02.839 not capable of a complete surrender. We don't 00:29:02.839 --> 00:29:05.880 even know what that means. But what we do is 00:29:05.880 --> 00:29:08.400 we completely surrender ourself over to God, 00:29:08.559 --> 00:29:11.599 who has completely surrendered over to us and 00:29:11.599 --> 00:29:15.660 our inability to know what it means. Thomas Burton 00:29:15.660 --> 00:29:19.880 once said, in the ways of God, to understand 00:29:19.880 --> 00:29:22.500 is to realize that you're infinitely understood. 00:29:23.740 --> 00:29:27.259 And to accept is that you're infinitely accepted. 00:29:27.579 --> 00:29:32.759 So we have to, by this acceptance of our inability 00:29:32.759 --> 00:29:35.720 to completely accept, and the deep acceptance 00:29:35.720 --> 00:29:39.460 of the very inability is God's infinite acceptance 00:29:39.460 --> 00:29:42.480 of us as the beloved in our poverty, which is 00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:45.599 experiential salvation. It's the gift of tears. 00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:51.930 Wow, thank you. You know, so when you first did 00:29:51.930 --> 00:29:54.250 your Zoom for me at the Beatitude Center, I asked 00:29:54.250 --> 00:29:57.150 you to speak about the connection between mysticism 00:29:57.150 --> 00:30:00.049 and nonviolence, as Gandhi and Dr. King talked 00:30:00.049 --> 00:30:03.230 about it. And you gave a beautiful talk. And 00:30:03.230 --> 00:30:05.990 for folks who are interested, it's not only on 00:30:05.990 --> 00:30:09.750 YouTube, but I typed it out and edited it as 00:30:09.750 --> 00:30:12.170 part of, I was asked by our mutual friend Richard 00:30:12.170 --> 00:30:17.170 Rohr to help curate and co -edit. this edition 00:30:17.170 --> 00:30:20.390 of a theological journal that Richard publishes 00:30:20.390 --> 00:30:23.730 called Oneing. And he has a one -word title for 00:30:23.730 --> 00:30:27.470 each special edition. And this one was called 00:30:27.470 --> 00:30:31.549 Nonviolence. And I put in my conversations with 00:30:31.549 --> 00:30:35.950 Jim Lawson and John Lewis, and I got an article 00:30:35.950 --> 00:30:39.009 from Joan Baez and a poem by Dan Bergen, all 00:30:39.009 --> 00:30:43.430 my friends. And we end with your reflections 00:30:43.430 --> 00:30:47.549 on the... connection and the depths of mystical 00:30:47.549 --> 00:30:50.390 nonviolence. So here we are as we're recording 00:30:50.390 --> 00:30:54.430 this. The United States is obliterating Iran 00:30:54.430 --> 00:30:56.930 and killing many, many people and killing people 00:30:56.930 --> 00:31:00.630 with Israel as well in Gaza and the West Bank 00:31:00.630 --> 00:31:04.170 and Lebanon, many other places. And we're supporting 00:31:04.170 --> 00:31:07.369 the killings in Ukraine and Congo and South Sudan. 00:31:09.130 --> 00:31:12.309 And there's so much injustice and growing fascism, 00:31:12.309 --> 00:31:16.630 racism and oligarchy and the threat of nuclear 00:31:16.630 --> 00:31:19.490 war and environmental destruction. So I want 00:31:19.490 --> 00:31:22.329 to ask the question again. If you would talk 00:31:22.329 --> 00:31:26.109 a little bit about this mystery of God that you've 00:31:26.109 --> 00:31:27.910 been telling us who loves us infinitely beyond 00:31:27.910 --> 00:31:33.140 our understanding. The God of nonviolence or 00:31:33.140 --> 00:31:37.240 the connection with this way of nonviolence that 00:31:37.240 --> 00:31:39.720 Gandhi and King said was at the heart of understanding 00:31:39.720 --> 00:31:52.079 Jesus. Yes. This is one way to approach it. I 00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:58.440 guess let's start looking at it. You know, the 00:31:58.440 --> 00:32:02.119 world's always been like this. It's true that 00:32:02.119 --> 00:32:04.220 certain countries in certain times are fortunate 00:32:04.220 --> 00:32:07.059 enough to have peace. You know, and the peace 00:32:07.059 --> 00:32:09.700 crumbles and falls and it rises up again and 00:32:09.700 --> 00:32:13.519 all this. Because when Jesus was living, the 00:32:13.519 --> 00:32:18.690 Jewish people were under the rule of Rome. And 00:32:18.690 --> 00:32:22.849 they were under the dominance of Rome. So Marcus 00:32:22.849 --> 00:32:26.130 Borg, who wrote Jesus again for the first time, 00:32:26.190 --> 00:32:29.009 the biblical scholar, he wrote a book on the 00:32:29.009 --> 00:32:31.750 last week of Jesus' life as the biblical scholar. 00:32:31.950 --> 00:32:34.109 Right. You know, the Last Supper, Gardening of 00:32:34.109 --> 00:32:37.529 Gethsemane, and so on. By the way, at the Last 00:32:37.529 --> 00:32:39.329 Supper, there was a traitor at the table. Things 00:32:39.329 --> 00:32:42.130 weren't off to a good start. Right. There's already 00:32:42.130 --> 00:32:45.970 a troubled situation this way. And he gave this 00:32:45.970 --> 00:32:49.650 image. He said Pontius Pilate was coming from 00:32:49.650 --> 00:32:53.230 Rome to be procurator and coming into Jerusalem 00:32:53.230 --> 00:32:56.150 to rule over the Jewish people with soldiers 00:32:56.150 --> 00:32:59.250 of swords and spears and marching in. Coming 00:32:59.250 --> 00:33:02.109 in on the other side of Jerusalem was Jesus riding 00:33:02.109 --> 00:33:04.789 on a donkey and people were waving palms. Hey, 00:33:04.789 --> 00:33:08.150 Zana, hey, Zana, Zana, Zana, hey. So he says, 00:33:08.230 --> 00:33:11.960 so which parade do we belong to this way? And 00:33:11.960 --> 00:33:14.380 so the whole mystery of the cross, the whole 00:33:14.380 --> 00:33:16.960 mystery of the cross, the sovereignty of love. 00:33:17.220 --> 00:33:19.519 Father, forgive them. They know not what they 00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:22.500 do. The image that really strikes me this way, 00:33:22.519 --> 00:33:25.759 it says that when Jesus died, they pierced his 00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:28.779 heart with a lance and blood and water flowed 00:33:28.779 --> 00:33:31.339 out like the birth of a child. And then there 00:33:31.339 --> 00:33:34.880 was no more Jesus left in Jesus. And the only 00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:37.119 Jesus that was ever really there is manifested 00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:40.220 throughout the whole world this way. So Jesus 00:33:40.220 --> 00:33:44.240 says, come follow me this way. Is it possible 00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:47.319 that I could learn to die of love at the hands 00:33:47.319 --> 00:33:49.819 of love until nothing's left of me but love? 00:33:50.700 --> 00:33:53.500 And nothing is left of me but love in the midst 00:33:53.500 --> 00:33:55.720 of, you know, I was also a clinical psychologist. 00:33:55.759 --> 00:33:59.019 I worked with trauma for 30 years. And I also 00:33:59.019 --> 00:34:01.359 have my own trauma work. But sometimes people, 00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:04.599 the AA is like this too. Sometimes in the midst 00:34:04.599 --> 00:34:09.670 of walking through your own trauma. Right in 00:34:09.670 --> 00:34:13.030 the midst of unresolved things, you can experience 00:34:13.030 --> 00:34:15.429 your being unexplainably sustained as precious 00:34:15.429 --> 00:34:18.869 in the midst of the vulnerability of your heart. 00:34:19.469 --> 00:34:22.489 So I think the first step for all of us is to 00:34:22.489 --> 00:34:26.010 become that ourselves with God's grace. Because 00:34:26.010 --> 00:34:29.230 we are the world. Thomas Merton says, God so 00:34:29.230 --> 00:34:30.750 loved the world, he sent his son to be God's 00:34:30.750 --> 00:34:33.530 son. He said, the world is us. That each one 00:34:33.530 --> 00:34:36.650 of us is empire and microcosm. And each one of 00:34:36.650 --> 00:34:39.130 us is infinitely loved by God in our brokenness. 00:34:39.550 --> 00:34:42.630 So in our own perpetual surrender, our own repentance, 00:34:42.849 --> 00:34:46.210 our own mercy, our own gratitude, can we learn 00:34:46.210 --> 00:34:50.829 to be someone in whose presence others are able 00:34:50.829 --> 00:34:52.829 to see you? So Jesus said, I'll end with this 00:34:52.829 --> 00:34:56.250 insight too. He said, be wise as a serpent and 00:34:56.250 --> 00:34:59.349 simple as a dove. That is, he was nobody's fool. 00:34:59.750 --> 00:35:03.389 He was not naive about the ways. Look what happened 00:35:03.389 --> 00:35:08.230 to him. Be wise as a serpent. But don't be so 00:35:08.230 --> 00:35:11.090 serpent -like and wise about the evils of the 00:35:11.090 --> 00:35:13.809 world that you lose the simplicity of a dove. 00:35:14.030 --> 00:35:18.050 Because the simplicity of a love utterly transcends 00:35:18.050 --> 00:35:20.070 and permeates the broken. Even if you're hanging 00:35:20.070 --> 00:35:24.670 on the cross, it transcends it. It's the inner 00:35:24.670 --> 00:35:26.849 peace that isn't dependent on the outcome of 00:35:26.849 --> 00:35:29.070 our efforts because it's the peace of God on 00:35:29.070 --> 00:35:31.369 which everything depends. Merton once said, those 00:35:31.369 --> 00:35:34.250 committed to social justice must be very careful 00:35:34.250 --> 00:35:36.510 never to get overly invested in the outcome of 00:35:36.510 --> 00:35:38.969 their efforts because by human standards, it 00:35:38.969 --> 00:35:41.920 may go down in flames. That's the cross. And 00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:44.219 so the light of the resurrection, another image. 00:35:44.420 --> 00:35:46.960 Say that in light of the resurrection. Because 00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:50.420 in the light of the resurrection, the deathless 00:35:50.420 --> 00:35:53.380 love of God utterly transcends and utterly permeates 00:35:53.380 --> 00:35:58.059 the brokenness itself. Judas and Peter both committed 00:35:58.059 --> 00:36:01.079 the same sin. They both betrayed Christ. Judas 00:36:01.079 --> 00:36:04.260 was so crushed by what he did, he takes his own 00:36:04.260 --> 00:36:07.460 life. Peter went out and wept. And Jesus makes 00:36:07.460 --> 00:36:09.900 them head of the church because he wept that 00:36:09.900 --> 00:36:12.280 the holiness of the church is the brokenness 00:36:12.280 --> 00:36:14.940 of the heart of a love that God's infinitely 00:36:14.940 --> 00:36:18.780 in love with us in our brokenness itself. And 00:36:18.780 --> 00:36:22.699 so I think each of us is personal. I say this 00:36:22.699 --> 00:36:25.320 as a therapist of spiritual direction, how each 00:36:25.320 --> 00:36:28.380 one of us walks this walk, you know, with God's 00:36:28.380 --> 00:36:31.739 grace to be God. God so loved the world. He sent 00:36:31.739 --> 00:36:33.960 his only begotten son. That world is the world 00:36:33.960 --> 00:36:37.760 in which all this is happening. this way. It 00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:40.599 always will be happening until the end. It's 00:36:40.599 --> 00:36:44.340 always like this, I think. Jim, it's been so 00:36:44.340 --> 00:36:46.480 beautiful listening to you, and we're really 00:36:46.480 --> 00:36:49.199 out of time. So let me just ask, is there any 00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:51.500 last thing you'd like to share with us, with 00:36:51.500 --> 00:36:54.500 the listeners, or particularly as a word of encouragement 00:36:54.500 --> 00:36:57.780 in this time to keep going forward in their search 00:36:57.780 --> 00:37:01.900 of God or opening to God? I would just end by 00:37:01.900 --> 00:37:04.519 the last question you had on your list. What 00:37:04.519 --> 00:37:08.079 sustains me? Yeah, I didn't get into asking you 00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:10.920 that. I'll end with that. I'll use that to sustain 00:37:10.920 --> 00:37:16.059 me. Here's where I'm at with it. You know, I'm 00:37:16.059 --> 00:37:20.119 82 years old, and I live here at the edge of 00:37:20.119 --> 00:37:22.260 the ocean where Maureen and I lived for 30 years. 00:37:22.380 --> 00:37:24.019 She died of Alzheimer's right here in the living 00:37:24.019 --> 00:37:29.699 room four years ago. And I sit out here and I'm 00:37:29.699 --> 00:37:34.340 sustained by God in my fragility and in my brokenness. 00:37:34.840 --> 00:37:37.800 It's like the amazement of God's presence in 00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:40.860 our lives. And that's what sustains me. And I 00:37:40.860 --> 00:37:46.300 would end with that. And so, praise the Lord. 00:37:46.760 --> 00:37:50.539 Amen, brother. Well, Jim, it's always beautiful 00:37:50.539 --> 00:37:53.460 listening to you. And I hope everyone listening 00:37:53.460 --> 00:37:56.210 will check out his podcast. books and his podcast. 00:37:56.670 --> 00:37:59.309 So thank you so much, Jim Finley, for speaking 00:37:59.309 --> 00:38:01.909 with me today. And thank you, friends, for listening 00:38:01.909 --> 00:38:04.309 to this episode of the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. 00:38:04.630 --> 00:38:07.250 You can hear many other podcasts and find other 00:38:07.250 --> 00:38:11.650 upcoming Zoom programs at www .beatitudescenter 00:38:11.650 --> 00:38:15.309 .org. And there you can also sign up to receive 00:38:15.309 --> 00:38:18.880 our... free e -blast, which has news about upcoming 00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:22.219 guests on the podcasts and Zooms. And you can 00:38:22.219 --> 00:38:24.320 help me, please, by telling your friends and 00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:27.219 co -workers about this podcast and encouraging 00:38:27.219 --> 00:38:31.239 them to listen in. And a shameless plug, I have 00:38:31.239 --> 00:38:33.940 a new book out, which I hope you might consider 00:38:33.940 --> 00:38:36.460 getting. It's called Universal Love, Surrendering 00:38:36.460 --> 00:38:39.239 to the God of Peace. So thanks, everyone, for 00:38:39.239 --> 00:38:41.739 being here. May the God of peace bless you all. 00:38:41.880 --> 00:38:45.179 Keep on following the nonviolent Jesus. See you 00:38:45.179 --> 00:38:45.699 next time.