Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm
John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking
with Jonathan Katab, Executive Director of FASNA,
Friends of Sabeel North America, the leading
Christian group in solidarity with our Palestinian
sisters and brothers. This is a project of www
.beatitudesender .org, where you can find many
other podcasts and regular Zoom programs on the
nonviolence of Jesus and practicing nonviolence
and working for a more just, more nonviolent
world. let's begin with a little prayer as we
usually do here. And so I just invite you wherever
you are just to take a deep breath and to relax
and to recenter yourselves and to enter into
the presence of the God of peace who loves you
infinitely and personally and everyone everywhere.
And let's welcome the risen nonviolent Jesus
here with us. Just take a moment to ask for whatever
grace you need to follow the nonviolent Jesus
more faithfully and do God's will of peace. Beloved
God of peace, thank you for all the blessings
of life, love, and peace that you give us. Be
with us now as we reflect. together on your call
to follow the nonviolent Jesus and work for a
more nonviolent, more just world in Palestine,
Israel, the United States, and everywhere. Bless
us, inspire us, disarm us, strengthen us, and
send us out to do your will, to do our part to
help end poverty, racism, greed, injustice, occupation.
fascism, warfare, nuclear weapons, environmental
destruction, the whole gamut of violence, that
we might be your holy peacemakers and welcome
your reign of universal love and peace on earth.
We ask this mighty blessing in Jesus' name. Amen.
Well, it's a great blessing to welcome today
to the podcast Jonathan Katab, Executive Director
of FOSNA, Friends of Sabeel North America. which
I think is the best Christian solidarity group
working with Palestinians for peace. And you
can check it all out at FOSNA .org. That's F
-O -S -N -A .org. I've been active with them
for... 25 years. Jonathan is also a co -founder
of the Palestinian Human Rights Group, I think
it's pronounced Al -Haq, and co -founder of Nonviolence
International. He's a well -known international
human rights attorney. He practices in the U
.S., Palestine, and Israel. He serves on the
board of the Bethlehem Bible College and is president
of the board of the Holy Land Trust. Jonathan
was head of the legal committee negotiating the
Cairo Agreement of 1994. between Israel and the
PLO. After graduating with his doctorate of jurisprudence,
his JD from Virginia Law School, and practicing
a couple of years on Wall Street, Jonathan returned
home to Palestine and was a visiting scholar
at Osgoode Law School, also at York University
in Toronto. And in the fall of 2017, And then
he was a founding director of Just Peace Advocates,
a Canadian -based international law human rights
nonprofit organization. Jonathan is a resident
of East Jerusalem and a partner of Khattab, Khoury,
and Hana law firm in East Jerusalem. His many
articles have appeared in places like the Middle
East Institute, Arab News. the Arab Center in
D .C., and Al Jazeera. And I invite everyone
to check out his website, jonathankatab .org.
I'm going to spell that, Jonathan, J -O -N -A
-T -H -A -N, katab, K -U -T -T -A -B .org. Welcome,
Jonathan, to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. Well,
thank you. It's good to be with you. Well, there's
so much to discuss, Jonathan, and I really appreciate
you being here. And it's impossible, of course,
to cover everything and all your work and your
life journey, much less what's happening. But
I thought we could dive right into it and start
with what's happening right now as we record
this in early 2026 in Palestine, Gaza, the West
Bank. Israel and the ongoing massive U .S. military
aid to Israel. Please share however you would
like with our listeners what you want us to know
about Palestine, Gaza, and the West Bank. Oh,
there is so much to share. The one thing that
I really want to emphasize is that the war on
Gaza, it's not the war in Gaza, the war on Gaza
is continuing even today. They're still refusing
to allow food, medicine, journalists, humanitarian
aid. They're still bombing and destroying people.
The so -called ceasefire is just an excuse to
continue the ongoing genocide against people.
My heart breaks every day when I think that there
are people who desperately need medical assistance.
who need food, who need water, who need shelter,
who need a normal life, who are being denied
all that. And the world is allowing it to continue.
It really breaks my heart. Yes, thank you. Well,
tell us about Fasna then, Jonathan. I've been
going to Palestine, Israel, since 1982, but certainly
one of the great experiences of my life was...
being one of the keynote speakers at the Sabeel
Conference in Bethlehem in the 2000s. It was
an eight -day conference. And as I said to everyone
listening, I hope everyone would join FASNA,
Friends of Sabeel, North America. And I recall
that Archbishop Tutu was a big believer and supporter
of Sabeel. You're the executive director of FASNA.
So tell us about Sabeel and FASNA and its current
work. Actually, Frasna is really an extension
and a support organization to Sabil. Sabil is
the Palestinian ecumenical, Palestinian liberation
theology movement, which is basically a grassroots
movement of ordinary Christians trying to live
out... the teachings of Christ under the conditions
of occupation and under the conditions of oppression
in the 21st century. The idea is that Jesus had
a very specific message for us, and we are trying
to live out that message under very difficult
circumstances. The interesting thing is that
the majority of Palestinians Palestinian Christians
from all denominations are nonviolent pacifists.
We read scripture to say that Jesus is the Prince
of Peace. He teaches us nonviolence. He teaches
us to love our enemies, not to kill them. So
in that sense, Palestinian Christians are, I
suppose, different from Christians in every other
country. since the first century, where the majority
of Christians find all sorts of excuses to use
violence and to participate in war under a number
of different excuses, whether it's self -defense
or obedience to the government or just war theory.
Whatever excuses they find to participate in
violence, I think... would have been rejected
by the early church and would have been contrary
to the message of Jesus. That's so great to hear.
And you're reminding me of our friend Naim, the
great liberation theologian from Bethlehem. Was
he the founder of Sabine? Naim Atik, yes. Yeah,
Naim Atik. And recently, they reissued the Kairos
document. I wonder, can you say a word about
that or tell us about that? Correct. The Kairos
document is really an attempt to give a theological
explanation, a theological interpretation for
the Christian message during these times. Because
we really strongly believe that the message of
Jesus during a period of genocide. calls on all
Christians basically to take a different position
than the one that's generally taken by most worldly
powers. It's a reflection or a throwback to the
original Kairos document that was issued in South
Africa. where the Christian church in South Africa
basically challenged Christians throughout the
world to confront apartheid as being against
God's will and Christians should not be participating
in apartheid. So the Kairos document in Palestine
is an attempt to tell Christians throughout the
world that... Theologically, they cannot possibly
avoid a position where they need to condemn rather
than participate in the ongoing genocide in Palestine
today. Yes, and I hope everyone can check out
the document. You know, everything you said about
the Palestinian Christians is true in my own
personal experience and all my trips over there
and back. to meet so many hundreds and hundreds
of ordinary Palestinian Christians talking about
nonviolence and peacemaking. I remember I was
once staying in Beit Shehor for two weeks. Thirty
years ago, I was leading an interfaith delegation.
We were Jews, Muslims, and Christians. And we
were priests, rabbis, and imams. And I was staying
in a Christian house right there at the entrance
of Bethlehem for two weeks. And I said, how far
back does your family go? How do you know about
the nonviolent Jesus? And they go, we go back
really far. I said, but yeah, but who brought
the gospel of peace and love and nonviolence
to you? And without missing a beat, the whole
family said, St. Paul. And that's my experience.
And they were full -on peacemakers. You're pointing
something out very powerful that there's an actual
amazing sense of nonviolence among Christians
there. Tell us from your life and experience
what nonviolence means for you and what nonviolence
means for the Palestinians here facing genocide
in Gaza. Israel and also funded by the United
States and the occupation and all the horrors
of apartheid that are happening there. What does
nonviolence mean for you all? Well, the curious
thing is that while nonviolence is really a very
radical idea, frankly, that I understand why
many people would feel uncomfortable and would
not easily... adopt nonviolence. For Palestinians
specifically, it is not that outlandish an idea.
I can honestly say, as a Palestinian, that nonviolence
is the best option available to us, whether we're
Christian or not. For a number of reasons, we're
dealing with, number one, people who have been
very traumatized, the Jewish people, and number
two, people who have been very militarized. So
to resist them with military power is almost
unthinkable. They're a nuclear power. They're
a huge producer of military weapons. The entire
society is fully militarized. So for us to resist
them with violence, however legitimate that may
be under international law, is really foolish.
It only reinforces their own trauma and reinforces
the ideology that only violence works. That you
have to use violence to achieve liberty or to
achieve security or to achieve your national
goals. So in a way, Palestinian Christians feel
totally comfortable talking the language of nonviolence
to other Palestinians as well. Violence does
not work. Violence does not deliver what it's
supposed to deliver. Only nonviolence can advance
our even national goals. This is a different
message than people are used to hearing. So,
Jonathan, this is the Nonviolent Jesus podcast,
and you've talked about being a Christian and
the Christian sense of nonviolence among Palestinians,
which I agree with, I've experienced. Tell me
any thoughts or passages in the life and teachings
of the nonviolent Jesus that inspire you and
some of your friends to carry on in the spirit
of nonviolent resistance these days. Well, the
entire message of Jesus was that my kingdom is
not of this world. You know, if I really sought...
to do things according to the way the world does
them. You know, I could ask God to send, you
know, battalions of angels to defend me. But
I'm not that kind of person. The kingdom of God
that I preach. is such a radically different
concept. It is based not on power. It's based
on service. It's based on sacrifice. It's based
on love. It's based on if you want to be powerful,
you have to be a servant. If you want to save
your life, you have to risk it and even lose
it. You have to return evil with good. It's an
upside -down kingdom where the values and the
ethics of the kingdom of God are different, in
fact, the opposite from the values of the world.
You know, most people, when you talk to them
about nonviolence, they would just give you this
scenario. What would you do if somebody came
at your wife with a knife? You know, there's
the evil person and there's... the innocent person
and you're asked to intervene with violence.
And I'm saying, no, no, no. Jesus taught a whole
different reality, a whole different world that's
based on love, that's based on sacrifice, that's
based on cooperation and coexistence. You know,
violence tempts people. It's very tempting because,
you know, we all know that when you're faced
with danger, it's the fight or flight. You either
run away or you fight. And Jesus says, no, there's
a third way. There's a different way. How about
love? How about cooperation? How about reconciliation?
How about a new reality where it's not domination
of the other? but living with the other, reconciling
with the other. Oh, that's so beautiful, Jonathan.
That's been my thought to my whole life, that
Jesus is the epitome of active, creative nonviolence
and therefore universal love. And it's a whole
different reality. And the kingdom of God is
all about that. And so therefore, Gandhi would
say, and Dr. King and Naeem and yourself, that
the whole gospel is all about nonviolence and
universal love. How did you know that and find
it? Recently, you published your memoir called
The Truth Will Set You Free, and you've had an
incredible journey. I just wonder if you could
share any episodes in your journey and what brought
you to this great understanding. Unfortunately,
it's all too rare that Jesus is nonviolence and
universal love, and so is the kingdom of God.
Well, the truth is I grew up in a Christian home.
So it was natural that I learned those things.
But I also grew up in a home that was very evangelical,
very puritanistic, very otherworldly even. For
me, saving souls was the most important thing.
rejection of the world and everything that's
in it. So I grew up in a world where you avoided
politics. You didn't get involved in what's going
on in the world around you. The most important
thing was to try and live a good Christian life
and try to save souls. And for me, a major thing
happened in 67 when the occupation started. I
was living in Bethlehem. All of a sudden, politics
intruded onto my life. While I was trying to
avoid politics as much as I could, I couldn't
because my very existence as a non -Jewish...
person in Palestine was a political fact. Every
hour of my life, my very existence there, even
as a peaceful, non -violent, totally non -political
person, was a problem for the state of Israel,
was a problem for the Zionist movement, was a
problem for the doctrines of Christian Zionism,
which says God gave this land to the Jews. What
are you doing here? That God somehow favored
the Jewish people over other people. Well, I
thought I was a child of God. I thought, you
know, God loved me, not just the Jewish people.
He loved everybody, including me. That God's
salvation was open to everyone, not just the
Jewish tribe. So I was being forced to deal with
a political reality that was the opposite. of
the kind of teaching that I grew up with. And
so I said, okay, you know, I don't want to be
involved in politics, but politics is involved
with me whether I like it or not. So then I began
to try and understand, well, what does it mean?
What is the good news? What is the gospel? The
gospel is supposed to be good news. And yet Christian
Zionism doesn't teach good news, not to the Palestinians
for sure, but not to the Jews either, and not
to the world. It teaches Armageddon, the end
of the world, the destruction of everything.
And that's not good news for anybody. So what
does the Bible really teach? So I had to go back
and read the Bible again with fresh eyes. What
does the Bible say about land? What does the
Bible say about violence and nonviolence? What
does Jesus teach about political life and political
reality and involvement in the lives of other
people? And it was a spiritual journey. And rather
than... I know many people at that stage would
just abandon their faith and abandon the Bible
and abandon Jesus as being irrelevant. But for
me, it was a rediscovery of Jesus as actually
the answer to all these questions. That the Bible
is good news. The gospel is good news. That Jesus
did come with a specific set of values and instructions.
that were good for everybody. God wanted us to
have life and to have it more abundantly. God's
love was open to everybody. The kingdom of God
was far better than the Roman Empire and the
kingdoms of this world and then the ideologies
of this world, which was based on power and domination
and supremacy. And tribalism, my people, my tribe,
my nation, my country, above all others. Jesus
says, no, God's love is open to everybody. The
kingdom of God is a vision of peace where the
lamb is lying with the lion and a little child
shall lead them. It's a vision of a new reality
that is far better. than what we see around us,
and an invitation to participate in that new
reality of the kingdom of God. Gosh, thank you
so much for sharing all that, Jonathan, and your
whole life journey. I read some of it when I
introduced you. You bring up Christian Zionism.
The way I've approached it, so I want to ask
you about that a little bit more. As I've been
saying, you know, we don't, we're not anti -Semitic.
We want the Jewish vision of Shalom, which you
just told us about. It's right there in Isaiah
of a whole vision of nonviolence, which culminates
in no death or killing on all my holy mountain.
And I want to listen to the great. Jewish peacemakers
and voices of nonviolence. And I want human rights
for Palestinian children and peace. And I want
it for people in North America. So no nuclear
weapons, no wars, no occupation, no walls, everyone
learning to welcome this kingdom of nonviolence.
If that's the vision, and nonviolence is at the
heart of all our religions, which I've come to
believe, Jonathan, Judaism, Islam and Christianity
are all based in nonviolence. So we're all wrong.
Then Christian Zionism, just as Christian nationalism,
is really heresy. And I think we need to talk
about it because it's infected so many Christians
across the board in the United States. And this
is not anti -Semitism. This is saying, no, we
want peace for everybody. We want to be brothers
and sisters, everybody. And the kingdom of God
is not about violence or war or division. breaking
down walls and learning to live together. How
can, I guess my question for you is, what suggestions
do you have for ordinary North American Christians
to help dismantle the false ideology of Christian
Zionism and Christian nationalism? One idea is...
We have to talk about it theologically because
a lot of people in this country are kind of thinking,
well, if we can get a big war in Israel, Palestine,
maybe, and the world ends, Jesus will come back.
Whereas Gandhi said the end of the world is when
everyone practices nonviolence. Isn't that beautiful?
Any thoughts on all of that? Yes, actually, Reverend
Jesse Wheeler, who is the... who is the assistant
director at Fosner here, has just written a book,
which is actually a collection of lessons and
exercises. It's called The Bible is Anti -Zionist.
Wow. Basically, what he does is he has like 15
little chapters. Each chapter takes one topic
and starts with quoting scripture. What does
the Bible actually say? about land, about violence,
about the end times, about prophecy, about what
does the Bible actually say? Read the Bible correctly
in proper context. How does it relate to what's
going on? So he has like a prayer from Sibyl,
the wave of prayer for Sibyl. And then he has
a number of questions. What does that mean? How
does this really interpret? How do you understand
this as a Christian? So there's a meditation,
there's prayer, but mostly there is scripture.
Let's read what the Bible actually says. And
I find that most of my friends who are Christian
Zionists don't really know their Bible. They
have a number of verses that they take usually
out of context and they repeat them all the time.
You know, they start with Genesis. You know,
God says, I will bless those who bless me. I
will curse those who curse me. Through your seeds
will all the nations of the world be blessed.
And as you see, it says so in the Bible. God
will support those who support Israel. God will
curse those who don't. No, wait a minute. That's
not what the Bible says. Because who is the seed
of Abraham today? It is not Benjamin Netanyahu.
And it's not the state of Israel. St. Paul tells
us in Galatians. The seed is being used in the
singular, which is Christ. It's through Jesus
Christ that the nations of the world are blessed,
not through the state of Israel. So read the
Bible and read it in context and find out what
does it say about Israel? What does it say about
the land? What does it say about the kingdom
of God? What does it say about violence and nonviolence?
Thank you, Jonathan. The first step is read the
Bible, read it correctly in context, and then
find out the facts. What is actually happening?
Because the media is biased and the state of
Israel does not want people to know what is happening.
That's why they're not allowing any journalists
into Gaza. For two and a half years, they are
not allowing journalists into Gaza, period. And
they're killing whatever journalists exist there.
Already about 230 journalists have been killed
in Gaza. So they don't want people to know what's
going on. But if you really dig a little, you
can find out what's actually going on and you
will be horrified. You will absolutely be horrified
about what's going on. And then prayerfully try
and find out what should be your response. And
I believe if you do that, if you take those steps,
read the Bible, what does it actually say? Find
out what the facts are and apply them prayerfully
to the situation. So, you know, if any of your
listeners would like to be on our mailing list,
go to Fosna .org. Every week I write something.
This week I'm going to write something about
Ramadan, the Feast of Ramadan, and about Islam
and Muslims and how do we understand Islam and
Muslims. So every week I write something that
relates my faith to the current situation. Thank
you, Jonathan. So you're saying... But so many
of us have been trying to say to fellow Christians
that once we understand that Jesus is nonviolent
and a person of universal love and a resistor,
and he was killed by the empire because of that,
well, then we can't support any of this state
violence or occupation or nuclear threats on
any side, and we're all being brainwashed. by
the ruling authorities these days. I'm talking
about U .S. Christians, you know, to go ahead
and somebody's making a lot of money off of the
death of children in Gaza. So now you also have
a newly updated book, Beyond the Two -State Solution.
I wonder if you could say a word about that.
I'm not going to ask you where the hope is. But
the future, to me, the hope is, as you've said,
in Jesus and the kingdom of God and trying to
live it and welcome it. But in your newly updated
book, you talk about the reality of these two
peoples with this horrific occupation history
over these last 80 years or so. needing to live
together in maybe a nonviolent universal state.
Tell us a little bit about your book. Well, people
can download it for free, actually, from the
website of nonviolenceinternational .net. One
word, nonviolenceinternational .net. If you go
there, you can download the book for free. And
it has a short executive summary at the back
for those who don't like to read the whole book.
They can just read the summary. And basically,
it puts out a vision for what can be a peaceful
solution to Israel -Palestine, a state where
both Jews and Palestinian Arabs can live together
as equal in a state that respects their rights.
and allows them to live their rights regardless
of who's in the majority and who's in the minority.
So it's not an issue of a demographic control
by one party over the other. You need to respect
both groups and you need to respect the individuals
and you need to understand where people are coming
from and what's their history and what's their
background, what's their traumas and what's their
hopes and fears. And it is possible for people
to live together. People say, oh, they hate each
other. They've always hated each other. That's
not true. People can live together, have lived
together in the past, and will hopefully live
together once again in the future. But to do
so, they have to abandon at least one thing,
which is the idea of exclusivity, that they're
the only people who own this land. whether it's
because God gave it to them or because they are
powerful enough to control it or because they
have military power over it or whether they have
historical claim over it. It's not yours alone.
It's yours to share with others who also love
this land and want to be in it and want to live
in it. So if you are willing to live as equal
in the same state, we can, in fact, live together.
So it's my own vision. Some people say it may
be a little bit utopian, a little bit too hopeful,
but it just shows that it is possible. It is
possible to solve this problem. This problem
is not that complicated. It becomes complicated
when one side says, this is mine and mine alone,
and I don't care about anybody else. I want to
keep it all for myself. Yeah. It's about money
and selfishness and greed and therefore violence.
Thank you for holding up that vision. For our
listeners, for people in the United States and
North America, a big reality of all of this,
of course, is that we have funded with millions
and billions and billions of dollars the ongoing
occupation of the Palestinian people by... the
Israeli state and the war and the killings, as
opposed to funding nonviolent solutions and justice
for everyone on all sides and peace building
programs. I read somewhere, and maybe you can
correct me, I think it's $10 million a day. Is
that correct, that the U .S. pays for Israel?
Oh, way beyond that, way beyond that. Yeah. It's
billions and billions of dollars. And I think
more than the money that's being spent and the
weapons that are being sent is the U .S. protecting
Israel from international law and from international
organizations and from the application of standards
which are expected of everybody. Somehow, if
the Palestinians try to use law and try to go
to the International Criminal Court and try to
go to the International Court of Justice, the
US tries to punish even the court and even the
judges for daring to challenge Israel and its
policies. So, unfortunately, our country, the
United States, is part of the problem here and
not part of the solution. So that leads to the
question and what I wanted to get at, which is
we have a responsibility, the people of the United
States, especially Christians. And this is what
Reverend Munther Isaac has been appealing to
everybody, the Christian churches in the U .S.
totally invested in war and occupation. And we
all have to take responsibility for that and
figure out a way to stop the funding of the U
.S. funding of the occupation and killings. So
I want to put the question to you, which is,
again, outrageous, but what do you suggest we
ordinary Christians can do here in the U .S.
to promote and end to the occupation and the
genocide and the war on Gaza and Palestine? And
I know you've talked about biblical approach,
study the scriptures, look at what Jesus would
do, and pray over that. So that's, I'm presuming
that. Do you have any other suggestions? And
maybe a first one would be check out FASNA, because
you're the leading solidary group. I think so.
There's a lot that can be done. One problem with
trying to do things through the political process
is that the political process in the United States
is truly broken. And it is truly subject to control
by those who have money and power. Somehow, we
have lost the democratic principle of government
by the people. It's now government by the billionaires,
government by the lobbies, government by... Those
who have money, they can buy and they can influence
elections and they can influence politicians
against the wishes of the population. So at that
level, I think we need some major reforms of
the political process. But even without thinking
about the political process, there's a lot that
we can do in divestment. boycotts and sanctions.
Ordinary people can participate through their
activism, through their money, through who they
support and who they don't, through education,
through learning, and through solidarity, people
working together. There are a lot of very, very
good people in this country. And when they work
jointly, when they work together, they can achieve
a lot and they can be very influential. This
is a powerful country. And this is a country
with many resources. And for all its problems
and all its mistakes, there is still a huge margin
for good people to act together in solidarity,
to organize together. for good causes throughout
the world, not just in Israel, Palestine. So
I am not giving up yet on this country and on
the ability of people in this country to act
and to bring about good change throughout the
world, despite our broken system. But in the
end, we are Christians. And we are not responsible
for the ultimate outcomes. We are responsible
for our own actions. We are called to obedience.
We are not called to great successes. We are
called to reflect the principles of the kingdom
of God. We pray, may your will be done on earth
as it is in heaven. So we are seeking to do God's
will on earth. knowing that ultimately things
are in God's hands, not in our hands. We are
called to be obedient servants and to speak prophetically
and to act prophetically and to point the way
to a better future for everybody in this world.
Thank you so much, Jonathan. Well, that's...
A beautiful way to end. I just normally like
to ask folks, is there anything else you would
like to add or any last word of encouragement
to our listeners to keep doing what they can
for peace? Maybe you just did that. I think I
just did. All right. I know a lot of people look
at the situation, it's so awful, and they fall
into despair. They don't have hope. And I say,
no, no, don't despair. Don't give up. You know,
we are a people of the resurrection. We are a
people who believe that evil will not have the
last word, that Jesus has already conquered,
and that we are just holding the fort in the
meanwhile. And we're just being called on to
obedience. We have to be obedient and we have
to be... honest, and we have to be truthful,
and we have to have integrity as we speak the
truth in very difficult times and under very
difficult circumstances, because we have hope
in the ultimate victory of good over evil. Wow,
that's perfect. Thank you so much, Jonathan,
for saying that. I'm so glad I asked you. And
thank you for all the great work you do. So,
dear friends listening, Please check out Jonathan
Katab at fasna .org. Also look up Sabil, the
Kairos Palestine document, Jonathan's books,
nonviolenceinternational .net. And as he says,
read about the nonviolent Jesus, look at what's
happening, and pray over what you can do. And
there's a lot of... steps you can take at fasna
.org. Thanks for listening to this Nonviolent
Jesus podcast, and you can hear more podcasts
and find other upcoming Zoom programs at beatitudescenter
.org and sign up there to receive our free e
-blast with news about other upcoming podcasts
and Zooms. Thanks for also checking out my new
book called Universal Love. which you can get
at orbisbooks .com or elsewhere, and you can
read some excerpts about it on Substack. And
please help spread the word about this podcast
and tell your friends and other church folks
about it. And may the God of peace bless you
all. Keep on following the nonviolent Jesus,
and let's together work and walk toward that
vision of a new world, a new kingdom of universal
love, peace, and nonviolence. See you next time.