WEBVTT 00:00:14.699 --> 00:00:18.239 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:18.239 --> 00:00:20.640 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:20.640 --> 00:00:24.739 with Jonathan Katab, Executive Director of FASNA, 00:00:24.899 --> 00:00:27.420 Friends of Sabeel North America, the leading 00:00:27.420 --> 00:00:30.579 Christian group in solidarity with our Palestinian 00:00:30.579 --> 00:00:33.560 sisters and brothers. This is a project of www 00:00:33.560 --> 00:00:37.640 .beatitudesender .org, where you can find many 00:00:37.640 --> 00:00:40.640 other podcasts and regular Zoom programs on the 00:00:40.640 --> 00:00:43.380 nonviolence of Jesus and practicing nonviolence 00:00:43.380 --> 00:00:46.079 and working for a more just, more nonviolent 00:00:46.079 --> 00:00:49.100 world. let's begin with a little prayer as we 00:00:49.100 --> 00:00:52.060 usually do here. And so I just invite you wherever 00:00:52.060 --> 00:00:56.359 you are just to take a deep breath and to relax 00:00:56.359 --> 00:01:01.159 and to recenter yourselves and to enter into 00:01:01.159 --> 00:01:03.759 the presence of the God of peace who loves you 00:01:03.759 --> 00:01:07.859 infinitely and personally and everyone everywhere. 00:01:08.519 --> 00:01:11.239 And let's welcome the risen nonviolent Jesus 00:01:11.239 --> 00:01:15.359 here with us. Just take a moment to ask for whatever 00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:18.319 grace you need to follow the nonviolent Jesus 00:01:18.319 --> 00:01:26.319 more faithfully and do God's will of peace. Beloved 00:01:26.319 --> 00:01:28.760 God of peace, thank you for all the blessings 00:01:28.760 --> 00:01:31.939 of life, love, and peace that you give us. Be 00:01:31.939 --> 00:01:36.010 with us now as we reflect. together on your call 00:01:36.010 --> 00:01:38.790 to follow the nonviolent Jesus and work for a 00:01:38.790 --> 00:01:42.829 more nonviolent, more just world in Palestine, 00:01:43.010 --> 00:01:45.650 Israel, the United States, and everywhere. Bless 00:01:45.650 --> 00:01:49.549 us, inspire us, disarm us, strengthen us, and 00:01:49.549 --> 00:01:52.629 send us out to do your will, to do our part to 00:01:52.629 --> 00:01:56.409 help end poverty, racism, greed, injustice, occupation. 00:01:57.679 --> 00:02:00.700 fascism, warfare, nuclear weapons, environmental 00:02:00.700 --> 00:02:03.859 destruction, the whole gamut of violence, that 00:02:03.859 --> 00:02:06.819 we might be your holy peacemakers and welcome 00:02:06.819 --> 00:02:09.719 your reign of universal love and peace on earth. 00:02:09.919 --> 00:02:13.560 We ask this mighty blessing in Jesus' name. Amen. 00:02:13.840 --> 00:02:16.939 Well, it's a great blessing to welcome today 00:02:16.939 --> 00:02:20.780 to the podcast Jonathan Katab, Executive Director 00:02:20.780 --> 00:02:24.810 of FOSNA, Friends of Sabeel North America. which 00:02:24.810 --> 00:02:27.490 I think is the best Christian solidarity group 00:02:27.490 --> 00:02:31.469 working with Palestinians for peace. And you 00:02:31.469 --> 00:02:34.810 can check it all out at FOSNA .org. That's F 00:02:34.810 --> 00:02:38.870 -O -S -N -A .org. I've been active with them 00:02:38.870 --> 00:02:43.000 for... 25 years. Jonathan is also a co -founder 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:45.680 of the Palestinian Human Rights Group, I think 00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:48.879 it's pronounced Al -Haq, and co -founder of Nonviolence 00:02:48.879 --> 00:02:51.259 International. He's a well -known international 00:02:51.259 --> 00:02:54.500 human rights attorney. He practices in the U 00:02:54.500 --> 00:02:57.340 .S., Palestine, and Israel. He serves on the 00:02:57.340 --> 00:03:00.219 board of the Bethlehem Bible College and is president 00:03:00.219 --> 00:03:03.080 of the board of the Holy Land Trust. Jonathan 00:03:03.080 --> 00:03:05.919 was head of the legal committee negotiating the 00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:09.719 Cairo Agreement of 1994. between Israel and the 00:03:09.719 --> 00:03:14.360 PLO. After graduating with his doctorate of jurisprudence, 00:03:14.439 --> 00:03:18.280 his JD from Virginia Law School, and practicing 00:03:18.280 --> 00:03:21.580 a couple of years on Wall Street, Jonathan returned 00:03:21.580 --> 00:03:24.539 home to Palestine and was a visiting scholar 00:03:24.539 --> 00:03:28.439 at Osgoode Law School, also at York University 00:03:28.439 --> 00:03:33.139 in Toronto. And in the fall of 2017, And then 00:03:33.139 --> 00:03:36.800 he was a founding director of Just Peace Advocates, 00:03:36.860 --> 00:03:41.900 a Canadian -based international law human rights 00:03:41.900 --> 00:03:45.939 nonprofit organization. Jonathan is a resident 00:03:45.939 --> 00:03:49.259 of East Jerusalem and a partner of Khattab, Khoury, 00:03:49.280 --> 00:03:52.360 and Hana law firm in East Jerusalem. His many 00:03:52.360 --> 00:03:54.379 articles have appeared in places like the Middle 00:03:54.379 --> 00:03:57.729 East Institute, Arab News. the Arab Center in 00:03:57.729 --> 00:04:00.530 D .C., and Al Jazeera. And I invite everyone 00:04:00.530 --> 00:04:04.949 to check out his website, jonathankatab .org. 00:04:05.069 --> 00:04:08.090 I'm going to spell that, Jonathan, J -O -N -A 00:04:08.090 --> 00:04:14.590 -T -H -A -N, katab, K -U -T -T -A -B .org. Welcome, 00:04:14.710 --> 00:04:18.649 Jonathan, to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. Well, 00:04:18.689 --> 00:04:22.100 thank you. It's good to be with you. Well, there's 00:04:22.100 --> 00:04:25.180 so much to discuss, Jonathan, and I really appreciate 00:04:25.180 --> 00:04:28.540 you being here. And it's impossible, of course, 00:04:28.579 --> 00:04:31.699 to cover everything and all your work and your 00:04:31.699 --> 00:04:34.199 life journey, much less what's happening. But 00:04:34.199 --> 00:04:37.920 I thought we could dive right into it and start 00:04:37.920 --> 00:04:40.120 with what's happening right now as we record 00:04:40.120 --> 00:04:44.399 this in early 2026 in Palestine, Gaza, the West 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:47.819 Bank. Israel and the ongoing massive U .S. military 00:04:47.819 --> 00:04:51.079 aid to Israel. Please share however you would 00:04:51.079 --> 00:04:54.540 like with our listeners what you want us to know 00:04:54.540 --> 00:04:57.860 about Palestine, Gaza, and the West Bank. Oh, 00:04:57.899 --> 00:05:00.819 there is so much to share. The one thing that 00:05:00.819 --> 00:05:05.779 I really want to emphasize is that the war on 00:05:05.779 --> 00:05:08.779 Gaza, it's not the war in Gaza, the war on Gaza 00:05:08.779 --> 00:05:12.800 is continuing even today. They're still refusing 00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:19.579 to allow food, medicine, journalists, humanitarian 00:05:19.579 --> 00:05:24.550 aid. They're still bombing and destroying people. 00:05:25.490 --> 00:05:30.689 The so -called ceasefire is just an excuse to 00:05:30.689 --> 00:05:34.449 continue the ongoing genocide against people. 00:05:34.910 --> 00:05:38.410 My heart breaks every day when I think that there 00:05:38.410 --> 00:05:41.850 are people who desperately need medical assistance. 00:05:42.990 --> 00:05:45.569 who need food, who need water, who need shelter, 00:05:45.810 --> 00:05:48.870 who need a normal life, who are being denied 00:05:48.870 --> 00:05:53.550 all that. And the world is allowing it to continue. 00:05:53.689 --> 00:06:01.009 It really breaks my heart. Yes, thank you. Well, 00:06:01.069 --> 00:06:04.069 tell us about Fasna then, Jonathan. I've been 00:06:04.069 --> 00:06:08.769 going to Palestine, Israel, since 1982, but certainly 00:06:08.769 --> 00:06:11.250 one of the great experiences of my life was... 00:06:11.949 --> 00:06:14.250 being one of the keynote speakers at the Sabeel 00:06:14.250 --> 00:06:17.009 Conference in Bethlehem in the 2000s. It was 00:06:17.009 --> 00:06:20.689 an eight -day conference. And as I said to everyone 00:06:20.689 --> 00:06:24.389 listening, I hope everyone would join FASNA, 00:06:24.430 --> 00:06:28.709 Friends of Sabeel, North America. And I recall 00:06:28.709 --> 00:06:31.750 that Archbishop Tutu was a big believer and supporter 00:06:31.750 --> 00:06:35.250 of Sabeel. You're the executive director of FASNA. 00:06:35.310 --> 00:06:38.490 So tell us about Sabeel and FASNA and its current 00:06:38.490 --> 00:06:43.790 work. Actually, Frasna is really an extension 00:06:43.790 --> 00:06:48.970 and a support organization to Sabil. Sabil is 00:06:48.970 --> 00:06:53.550 the Palestinian ecumenical, Palestinian liberation 00:06:53.550 --> 00:06:58.170 theology movement, which is basically a grassroots 00:06:58.170 --> 00:07:03.389 movement of ordinary Christians trying to live 00:07:03.389 --> 00:07:07.040 out... the teachings of Christ under the conditions 00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:11.019 of occupation and under the conditions of oppression 00:07:11.019 --> 00:07:17.240 in the 21st century. The idea is that Jesus had 00:07:17.240 --> 00:07:20.920 a very specific message for us, and we are trying 00:07:20.920 --> 00:07:23.620 to live out that message under very difficult 00:07:23.620 --> 00:07:27.000 circumstances. The interesting thing is that 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:31.600 the majority of Palestinians Palestinian Christians 00:07:31.600 --> 00:07:36.579 from all denominations are nonviolent pacifists. 00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:39.959 We read scripture to say that Jesus is the Prince 00:07:39.959 --> 00:07:43.439 of Peace. He teaches us nonviolence. He teaches 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:47.279 us to love our enemies, not to kill them. So 00:07:47.279 --> 00:07:51.480 in that sense, Palestinian Christians are, I 00:07:51.480 --> 00:07:54.199 suppose, different from Christians in every other 00:07:54.199 --> 00:07:58.509 country. since the first century, where the majority 00:07:58.509 --> 00:08:02.910 of Christians find all sorts of excuses to use 00:08:02.910 --> 00:08:07.329 violence and to participate in war under a number 00:08:07.329 --> 00:08:12.170 of different excuses, whether it's self -defense 00:08:12.170 --> 00:08:17.529 or obedience to the government or just war theory. 00:08:17.670 --> 00:08:21.769 Whatever excuses they find to participate in 00:08:21.769 --> 00:08:24.500 violence, I think... would have been rejected 00:08:24.500 --> 00:08:27.540 by the early church and would have been contrary 00:08:27.540 --> 00:08:31.220 to the message of Jesus. That's so great to hear. 00:08:31.399 --> 00:08:34.360 And you're reminding me of our friend Naim, the 00:08:34.360 --> 00:08:37.620 great liberation theologian from Bethlehem. Was 00:08:37.620 --> 00:08:40.580 he the founder of Sabine? Naim Atik, yes. Yeah, 00:08:40.580 --> 00:08:48.960 Naim Atik. And recently, they reissued the Kairos 00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:51.580 document. I wonder, can you say a word about 00:08:51.580 --> 00:08:55.750 that or tell us about that? Correct. The Kairos 00:08:55.750 --> 00:09:00.669 document is really an attempt to give a theological 00:09:00.669 --> 00:09:06.529 explanation, a theological interpretation for 00:09:06.529 --> 00:09:12.149 the Christian message during these times. Because 00:09:12.149 --> 00:09:17.269 we really strongly believe that the message of 00:09:17.269 --> 00:09:25.110 Jesus during a period of genocide. calls on all 00:09:25.110 --> 00:09:32.470 Christians basically to take a different position 00:09:32.470 --> 00:09:36.330 than the one that's generally taken by most worldly 00:09:36.330 --> 00:09:45.009 powers. It's a reflection or a throwback to the 00:09:45.009 --> 00:09:49.549 original Kairos document that was issued in South 00:09:49.549 --> 00:09:53.389 Africa. where the Christian church in South Africa 00:09:53.389 --> 00:09:56.570 basically challenged Christians throughout the 00:09:56.570 --> 00:10:00.710 world to confront apartheid as being against 00:10:00.710 --> 00:10:04.490 God's will and Christians should not be participating 00:10:04.490 --> 00:10:08.649 in apartheid. So the Kairos document in Palestine 00:10:08.649 --> 00:10:12.190 is an attempt to tell Christians throughout the 00:10:12.190 --> 00:10:16.789 world that... Theologically, they cannot possibly 00:10:16.789 --> 00:10:23.110 avoid a position where they need to condemn rather 00:10:23.110 --> 00:10:27.210 than participate in the ongoing genocide in Palestine 00:10:27.210 --> 00:10:31.490 today. Yes, and I hope everyone can check out 00:10:31.490 --> 00:10:34.570 the document. You know, everything you said about 00:10:34.570 --> 00:10:37.009 the Palestinian Christians is true in my own 00:10:37.009 --> 00:10:40.970 personal experience and all my trips over there 00:10:40.970 --> 00:10:45.120 and back. to meet so many hundreds and hundreds 00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:48.120 of ordinary Palestinian Christians talking about 00:10:48.120 --> 00:10:52.399 nonviolence and peacemaking. I remember I was 00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:55.139 once staying in Beit Shehor for two weeks. Thirty 00:10:55.139 --> 00:10:57.519 years ago, I was leading an interfaith delegation. 00:10:57.899 --> 00:11:01.100 We were Jews, Muslims, and Christians. And we 00:11:01.100 --> 00:11:05.559 were priests, rabbis, and imams. And I was staying 00:11:05.559 --> 00:11:08.360 in a Christian house right there at the entrance 00:11:08.360 --> 00:11:11.679 of Bethlehem for two weeks. And I said, how far 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:14.200 back does your family go? How do you know about 00:11:14.200 --> 00:11:16.779 the nonviolent Jesus? And they go, we go back 00:11:16.779 --> 00:11:20.759 really far. I said, but yeah, but who brought 00:11:20.759 --> 00:11:23.919 the gospel of peace and love and nonviolence 00:11:23.919 --> 00:11:26.039 to you? And without missing a beat, the whole 00:11:26.039 --> 00:11:31.220 family said, St. Paul. And that's my experience. 00:11:31.259 --> 00:11:39.340 And they were full -on peacemakers. You're pointing 00:11:39.340 --> 00:11:42.980 something out very powerful that there's an actual 00:11:42.980 --> 00:11:47.039 amazing sense of nonviolence among Christians 00:11:47.039 --> 00:11:50.320 there. Tell us from your life and experience 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:54.419 what nonviolence means for you and what nonviolence 00:11:54.419 --> 00:11:58.299 means for the Palestinians here facing genocide 00:11:58.299 --> 00:12:02.159 in Gaza. Israel and also funded by the United 00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:05.740 States and the occupation and all the horrors 00:12:05.740 --> 00:12:07.679 of apartheid that are happening there. What does 00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:11.539 nonviolence mean for you all? Well, the curious 00:12:11.539 --> 00:12:16.059 thing is that while nonviolence is really a very 00:12:16.059 --> 00:12:21.220 radical idea, frankly, that I understand why 00:12:21.220 --> 00:12:24.419 many people would feel uncomfortable and would 00:12:24.419 --> 00:12:29.159 not easily... adopt nonviolence. For Palestinians 00:12:29.159 --> 00:12:33.639 specifically, it is not that outlandish an idea. 00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:41.159 I can honestly say, as a Palestinian, that nonviolence 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:45.799 is the best option available to us, whether we're 00:12:45.799 --> 00:12:50.399 Christian or not. For a number of reasons, we're 00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:53.799 dealing with, number one, people who have been 00:12:53.799 --> 00:12:57.139 very traumatized, the Jewish people, and number 00:12:57.139 --> 00:13:00.700 two, people who have been very militarized. So 00:13:00.700 --> 00:13:04.620 to resist them with military power is almost 00:13:04.620 --> 00:13:08.039 unthinkable. They're a nuclear power. They're 00:13:08.039 --> 00:13:14.600 a huge producer of military weapons. The entire 00:13:14.600 --> 00:13:18.360 society is fully militarized. So for us to resist 00:13:18.360 --> 00:13:22.299 them with violence, however legitimate that may 00:13:22.299 --> 00:13:25.120 be under international law, is really foolish. 00:13:25.220 --> 00:13:30.340 It only reinforces their own trauma and reinforces 00:13:30.340 --> 00:13:35.460 the ideology that only violence works. That you 00:13:35.460 --> 00:13:41.200 have to use violence to achieve liberty or to 00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:44.200 achieve security or to achieve your national 00:13:44.200 --> 00:13:49.340 goals. So in a way, Palestinian Christians feel 00:13:49.340 --> 00:13:54.299 totally comfortable talking the language of nonviolence 00:13:54.299 --> 00:13:58.580 to other Palestinians as well. Violence does 00:13:58.580 --> 00:14:02.960 not work. Violence does not deliver what it's 00:14:02.960 --> 00:14:07.720 supposed to deliver. Only nonviolence can advance 00:14:07.720 --> 00:14:13.360 our even national goals. This is a different 00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:18.340 message than people are used to hearing. So, 00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:21.120 Jonathan, this is the Nonviolent Jesus podcast, 00:14:21.220 --> 00:14:23.899 and you've talked about being a Christian and 00:14:23.899 --> 00:14:29.539 the Christian sense of nonviolence among Palestinians, 00:14:29.980 --> 00:14:34.100 which I agree with, I've experienced. Tell me 00:14:34.100 --> 00:14:38.019 any thoughts or passages in the life and teachings 00:14:38.019 --> 00:14:41.440 of the nonviolent Jesus that inspire you and 00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:44.600 some of your friends to carry on in the spirit 00:14:44.600 --> 00:14:51.019 of nonviolent resistance these days. Well, the 00:14:51.019 --> 00:14:58.379 entire message of Jesus was that my kingdom is 00:14:58.379 --> 00:15:02.580 not of this world. You know, if I really sought... 00:15:02.990 --> 00:15:05.509 to do things according to the way the world does 00:15:05.509 --> 00:15:08.370 them. You know, I could ask God to send, you 00:15:08.370 --> 00:15:11.750 know, battalions of angels to defend me. But 00:15:11.750 --> 00:15:15.649 I'm not that kind of person. The kingdom of God 00:15:15.649 --> 00:15:19.730 that I preach. is such a radically different 00:15:19.730 --> 00:15:24.389 concept. It is based not on power. It's based 00:15:24.389 --> 00:15:28.029 on service. It's based on sacrifice. It's based 00:15:28.029 --> 00:15:33.929 on love. It's based on if you want to be powerful, 00:15:34.210 --> 00:15:37.330 you have to be a servant. If you want to save 00:15:37.330 --> 00:15:39.870 your life, you have to risk it and even lose 00:15:39.870 --> 00:15:45.740 it. You have to return evil with good. It's an 00:15:45.740 --> 00:15:51.580 upside -down kingdom where the values and the 00:15:51.580 --> 00:15:55.059 ethics of the kingdom of God are different, in 00:15:55.059 --> 00:15:58.059 fact, the opposite from the values of the world. 00:15:58.860 --> 00:16:00.940 You know, most people, when you talk to them 00:16:00.940 --> 00:16:04.440 about nonviolence, they would just give you this 00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:07.600 scenario. What would you do if somebody came 00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:11.200 at your wife with a knife? You know, there's 00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:17.200 the evil person and there's... the innocent person 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:20.200 and you're asked to intervene with violence. 00:16:20.440 --> 00:16:23.220 And I'm saying, no, no, no. Jesus taught a whole 00:16:23.220 --> 00:16:28.019 different reality, a whole different world that's 00:16:28.019 --> 00:16:32.860 based on love, that's based on sacrifice, that's 00:16:32.860 --> 00:16:38.259 based on cooperation and coexistence. You know, 00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:43.330 violence tempts people. It's very tempting because, 00:16:43.450 --> 00:16:46.350 you know, we all know that when you're faced 00:16:46.350 --> 00:16:50.129 with danger, it's the fight or flight. You either 00:16:50.129 --> 00:16:53.649 run away or you fight. And Jesus says, no, there's 00:16:53.649 --> 00:16:56.450 a third way. There's a different way. How about 00:16:56.450 --> 00:17:02.029 love? How about cooperation? How about reconciliation? 00:17:02.289 --> 00:17:07.470 How about a new reality where it's not domination 00:17:07.470 --> 00:17:11.509 of the other? but living with the other, reconciling 00:17:11.509 --> 00:17:14.589 with the other. Oh, that's so beautiful, Jonathan. 00:17:14.950 --> 00:17:18.569 That's been my thought to my whole life, that 00:17:18.569 --> 00:17:22.549 Jesus is the epitome of active, creative nonviolence 00:17:22.549 --> 00:17:25.869 and therefore universal love. And it's a whole 00:17:25.869 --> 00:17:27.930 different reality. And the kingdom of God is 00:17:27.930 --> 00:17:30.329 all about that. And so therefore, Gandhi would 00:17:30.329 --> 00:17:33.849 say, and Dr. King and Naeem and yourself, that 00:17:33.849 --> 00:17:37.250 the whole gospel is all about nonviolence and 00:17:37.250 --> 00:17:42.099 universal love. How did you know that and find 00:17:42.099 --> 00:17:45.539 it? Recently, you published your memoir called 00:17:45.539 --> 00:17:48.980 The Truth Will Set You Free, and you've had an 00:17:48.980 --> 00:17:52.039 incredible journey. I just wonder if you could 00:17:52.039 --> 00:17:56.279 share any episodes in your journey and what brought 00:17:56.279 --> 00:17:58.799 you to this great understanding. Unfortunately, 00:17:59.140 --> 00:18:02.579 it's all too rare that Jesus is nonviolence and 00:18:02.579 --> 00:18:04.660 universal love, and so is the kingdom of God. 00:18:05.259 --> 00:18:08.900 Well, the truth is I grew up in a Christian home. 00:18:09.319 --> 00:18:13.680 So it was natural that I learned those things. 00:18:14.799 --> 00:18:19.720 But I also grew up in a home that was very evangelical, 00:18:19.940 --> 00:18:28.839 very puritanistic, very otherworldly even. For 00:18:28.839 --> 00:18:33.119 me, saving souls was the most important thing. 00:18:34.409 --> 00:18:36.930 rejection of the world and everything that's 00:18:36.930 --> 00:18:44.069 in it. So I grew up in a world where you avoided 00:18:44.069 --> 00:18:48.950 politics. You didn't get involved in what's going 00:18:48.950 --> 00:18:51.269 on in the world around you. The most important 00:18:51.269 --> 00:18:54.710 thing was to try and live a good Christian life 00:18:54.710 --> 00:19:00.720 and try to save souls. And for me, a major thing 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:05.299 happened in 67 when the occupation started. I 00:19:05.299 --> 00:19:09.660 was living in Bethlehem. All of a sudden, politics 00:19:09.660 --> 00:19:14.440 intruded onto my life. While I was trying to 00:19:14.440 --> 00:19:18.579 avoid politics as much as I could, I couldn't 00:19:18.579 --> 00:19:22.380 because my very existence as a non -Jewish... 00:19:22.589 --> 00:19:27.349 person in Palestine was a political fact. Every 00:19:27.349 --> 00:19:32.250 hour of my life, my very existence there, even 00:19:32.250 --> 00:19:37.029 as a peaceful, non -violent, totally non -political 00:19:37.029 --> 00:19:40.609 person, was a problem for the state of Israel, 00:19:40.849 --> 00:19:44.170 was a problem for the Zionist movement, was a 00:19:44.170 --> 00:19:48.210 problem for the doctrines of Christian Zionism, 00:19:48.210 --> 00:19:50.250 which says God gave this land to the Jews. What 00:19:50.250 --> 00:19:54.329 are you doing here? That God somehow favored 00:19:54.329 --> 00:19:57.009 the Jewish people over other people. Well, I 00:19:57.009 --> 00:19:59.529 thought I was a child of God. I thought, you 00:19:59.529 --> 00:20:03.029 know, God loved me, not just the Jewish people. 00:20:03.109 --> 00:20:06.250 He loved everybody, including me. That God's 00:20:06.250 --> 00:20:08.630 salvation was open to everyone, not just the 00:20:08.630 --> 00:20:13.509 Jewish tribe. So I was being forced to deal with 00:20:13.509 --> 00:20:18.059 a political reality that was the opposite. of 00:20:18.059 --> 00:20:21.660 the kind of teaching that I grew up with. And 00:20:21.660 --> 00:20:26.599 so I said, okay, you know, I don't want to be 00:20:26.599 --> 00:20:30.480 involved in politics, but politics is involved 00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:34.539 with me whether I like it or not. So then I began 00:20:34.539 --> 00:20:37.680 to try and understand, well, what does it mean? 00:20:38.500 --> 00:20:41.579 What is the good news? What is the gospel? The 00:20:41.579 --> 00:20:44.740 gospel is supposed to be good news. And yet Christian 00:20:44.740 --> 00:20:48.180 Zionism doesn't teach good news, not to the Palestinians 00:20:48.180 --> 00:20:51.720 for sure, but not to the Jews either, and not 00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:55.380 to the world. It teaches Armageddon, the end 00:20:55.380 --> 00:20:58.220 of the world, the destruction of everything. 00:20:59.539 --> 00:21:03.779 And that's not good news for anybody. So what 00:21:03.779 --> 00:21:06.160 does the Bible really teach? So I had to go back 00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:10.599 and read the Bible again with fresh eyes. What 00:21:10.599 --> 00:21:13.119 does the Bible say about land? What does the 00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:16.980 Bible say about violence and nonviolence? What 00:21:16.980 --> 00:21:21.700 does Jesus teach about political life and political 00:21:21.700 --> 00:21:26.019 reality and involvement in the lives of other 00:21:26.019 --> 00:21:31.519 people? And it was a spiritual journey. And rather 00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:34.730 than... I know many people at that stage would 00:21:34.730 --> 00:21:37.289 just abandon their faith and abandon the Bible 00:21:37.289 --> 00:21:40.569 and abandon Jesus as being irrelevant. But for 00:21:40.569 --> 00:21:44.849 me, it was a rediscovery of Jesus as actually 00:21:44.849 --> 00:21:50.049 the answer to all these questions. That the Bible 00:21:50.049 --> 00:21:53.289 is good news. The gospel is good news. That Jesus 00:21:53.289 --> 00:21:59.309 did come with a specific set of values and instructions. 00:22:00.410 --> 00:22:04.930 that were good for everybody. God wanted us to 00:22:04.930 --> 00:22:08.410 have life and to have it more abundantly. God's 00:22:08.410 --> 00:22:12.109 love was open to everybody. The kingdom of God 00:22:12.109 --> 00:22:16.789 was far better than the Roman Empire and the 00:22:16.789 --> 00:22:21.549 kingdoms of this world and then the ideologies 00:22:21.549 --> 00:22:24.990 of this world, which was based on power and domination 00:22:24.990 --> 00:22:31.039 and supremacy. And tribalism, my people, my tribe, 00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:35.619 my nation, my country, above all others. Jesus 00:22:35.619 --> 00:22:39.039 says, no, God's love is open to everybody. The 00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:43.940 kingdom of God is a vision of peace where the 00:22:43.940 --> 00:22:49.579 lamb is lying with the lion and a little child 00:22:49.579 --> 00:22:53.539 shall lead them. It's a vision of a new reality 00:22:53.539 --> 00:22:58.509 that is far better. than what we see around us, 00:22:58.630 --> 00:23:02.329 and an invitation to participate in that new 00:23:02.329 --> 00:23:05.430 reality of the kingdom of God. Gosh, thank you 00:23:05.430 --> 00:23:08.089 so much for sharing all that, Jonathan, and your 00:23:08.089 --> 00:23:11.690 whole life journey. I read some of it when I 00:23:11.690 --> 00:23:15.470 introduced you. You bring up Christian Zionism. 00:23:15.589 --> 00:23:17.869 The way I've approached it, so I want to ask 00:23:17.869 --> 00:23:21.490 you about that a little bit more. As I've been 00:23:21.490 --> 00:23:24.470 saying, you know, we don't, we're not anti -Semitic. 00:23:24.470 --> 00:23:28.130 We want the Jewish vision of Shalom, which you 00:23:28.130 --> 00:23:31.150 just told us about. It's right there in Isaiah 00:23:31.150 --> 00:23:35.750 of a whole vision of nonviolence, which culminates 00:23:35.750 --> 00:23:38.069 in no death or killing on all my holy mountain. 00:23:38.509 --> 00:23:42.240 And I want to listen to the great. Jewish peacemakers 00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:45.859 and voices of nonviolence. And I want human rights 00:23:45.859 --> 00:23:49.619 for Palestinian children and peace. And I want 00:23:49.619 --> 00:23:52.940 it for people in North America. So no nuclear 00:23:52.940 --> 00:23:56.500 weapons, no wars, no occupation, no walls, everyone 00:23:56.500 --> 00:23:59.380 learning to welcome this kingdom of nonviolence. 00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:03.279 If that's the vision, and nonviolence is at the 00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:05.579 heart of all our religions, which I've come to 00:24:05.579 --> 00:24:08.940 believe, Jonathan, Judaism, Islam and Christianity 00:24:08.940 --> 00:24:12.500 are all based in nonviolence. So we're all wrong. 00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:17.339 Then Christian Zionism, just as Christian nationalism, 00:24:17.740 --> 00:24:22.059 is really heresy. And I think we need to talk 00:24:22.059 --> 00:24:26.099 about it because it's infected so many Christians 00:24:26.099 --> 00:24:29.740 across the board in the United States. And this 00:24:29.740 --> 00:24:32.920 is not anti -Semitism. This is saying, no, we 00:24:32.920 --> 00:24:35.299 want peace for everybody. We want to be brothers 00:24:35.299 --> 00:24:39.980 and sisters, everybody. And the kingdom of God 00:24:39.980 --> 00:24:46.440 is not about violence or war or division. breaking 00:24:46.440 --> 00:24:49.240 down walls and learning to live together. How 00:24:49.240 --> 00:24:52.700 can, I guess my question for you is, what suggestions 00:24:52.700 --> 00:24:56.579 do you have for ordinary North American Christians 00:24:56.579 --> 00:25:01.339 to help dismantle the false ideology of Christian 00:25:01.339 --> 00:25:05.039 Zionism and Christian nationalism? One idea is... 00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:08.140 We have to talk about it theologically because 00:25:08.140 --> 00:25:11.579 a lot of people in this country are kind of thinking, 00:25:11.720 --> 00:25:15.180 well, if we can get a big war in Israel, Palestine, 00:25:15.319 --> 00:25:18.720 maybe, and the world ends, Jesus will come back. 00:25:19.240 --> 00:25:22.180 Whereas Gandhi said the end of the world is when 00:25:22.180 --> 00:25:25.640 everyone practices nonviolence. Isn't that beautiful? 00:25:25.880 --> 00:25:30.539 Any thoughts on all of that? Yes, actually, Reverend 00:25:30.539 --> 00:25:35.059 Jesse Wheeler, who is the... who is the assistant 00:25:35.059 --> 00:25:39.700 director at Fosner here, has just written a book, 00:25:39.700 --> 00:25:45.599 which is actually a collection of lessons and 00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:49.420 exercises. It's called The Bible is Anti -Zionist. 00:25:49.660 --> 00:25:53.400 Wow. Basically, what he does is he has like 15 00:25:53.400 --> 00:25:56.700 little chapters. Each chapter takes one topic 00:25:56.700 --> 00:26:00.140 and starts with quoting scripture. What does 00:26:00.140 --> 00:26:04.400 the Bible actually say? about land, about violence, 00:26:04.660 --> 00:26:07.960 about the end times, about prophecy, about what 00:26:07.960 --> 00:26:11.700 does the Bible actually say? Read the Bible correctly 00:26:11.700 --> 00:26:16.039 in proper context. How does it relate to what's 00:26:16.039 --> 00:26:20.380 going on? So he has like a prayer from Sibyl, 00:26:20.559 --> 00:26:23.960 the wave of prayer for Sibyl. And then he has 00:26:23.960 --> 00:26:27.980 a number of questions. What does that mean? How 00:26:27.980 --> 00:26:30.660 does this really interpret? How do you understand 00:26:30.660 --> 00:26:33.440 this as a Christian? So there's a meditation, 00:26:33.700 --> 00:26:36.119 there's prayer, but mostly there is scripture. 00:26:36.940 --> 00:26:40.420 Let's read what the Bible actually says. And 00:26:40.420 --> 00:26:44.019 I find that most of my friends who are Christian 00:26:44.019 --> 00:26:47.160 Zionists don't really know their Bible. They 00:26:47.160 --> 00:26:49.359 have a number of verses that they take usually 00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:51.880 out of context and they repeat them all the time. 00:26:52.380 --> 00:26:54.539 You know, they start with Genesis. You know, 00:26:54.559 --> 00:26:57.579 God says, I will bless those who bless me. I 00:26:57.579 --> 00:26:59.880 will curse those who curse me. Through your seeds 00:26:59.880 --> 00:27:01.799 will all the nations of the world be blessed. 00:27:02.980 --> 00:27:06.480 And as you see, it says so in the Bible. God 00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:08.799 will support those who support Israel. God will 00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:11.500 curse those who don't. No, wait a minute. That's 00:27:11.500 --> 00:27:14.640 not what the Bible says. Because who is the seed 00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:17.140 of Abraham today? It is not Benjamin Netanyahu. 00:27:17.319 --> 00:27:20.299 And it's not the state of Israel. St. Paul tells 00:27:20.299 --> 00:27:24.690 us in Galatians. The seed is being used in the 00:27:24.690 --> 00:27:27.950 singular, which is Christ. It's through Jesus 00:27:27.950 --> 00:27:30.190 Christ that the nations of the world are blessed, 00:27:30.410 --> 00:27:35.009 not through the state of Israel. So read the 00:27:35.009 --> 00:27:37.549 Bible and read it in context and find out what 00:27:37.549 --> 00:27:41.589 does it say about Israel? What does it say about 00:27:41.589 --> 00:27:43.930 the land? What does it say about the kingdom 00:27:43.930 --> 00:27:47.769 of God? What does it say about violence and nonviolence? 00:27:48.230 --> 00:27:52.690 Thank you, Jonathan. The first step is read the 00:27:52.690 --> 00:27:57.430 Bible, read it correctly in context, and then 00:27:57.430 --> 00:28:02.089 find out the facts. What is actually happening? 00:28:02.170 --> 00:28:06.750 Because the media is biased and the state of 00:28:06.750 --> 00:28:09.109 Israel does not want people to know what is happening. 00:28:09.230 --> 00:28:11.069 That's why they're not allowing any journalists 00:28:11.069 --> 00:28:14.170 into Gaza. For two and a half years, they are 00:28:14.170 --> 00:28:17.890 not allowing journalists into Gaza, period. And 00:28:17.890 --> 00:28:20.049 they're killing whatever journalists exist there. 00:28:20.460 --> 00:28:23.859 Already about 230 journalists have been killed 00:28:23.859 --> 00:28:28.259 in Gaza. So they don't want people to know what's 00:28:28.259 --> 00:28:31.599 going on. But if you really dig a little, you 00:28:31.599 --> 00:28:33.880 can find out what's actually going on and you 00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:37.099 will be horrified. You will absolutely be horrified 00:28:37.099 --> 00:28:40.779 about what's going on. And then prayerfully try 00:28:40.779 --> 00:28:44.819 and find out what should be your response. And 00:28:44.819 --> 00:28:48.480 I believe if you do that, if you take those steps, 00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:53.140 read the Bible, what does it actually say? Find 00:28:53.140 --> 00:28:57.299 out what the facts are and apply them prayerfully 00:28:57.299 --> 00:29:04.000 to the situation. So, you know, if any of your 00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:09.720 listeners would like to be on our mailing list, 00:29:10.059 --> 00:29:15.160 go to Fosna .org. Every week I write something. 00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:17.140 This week I'm going to write something about 00:29:17.140 --> 00:29:20.400 Ramadan, the Feast of Ramadan, and about Islam 00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:23.000 and Muslims and how do we understand Islam and 00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:26.200 Muslims. So every week I write something that 00:29:26.200 --> 00:29:31.519 relates my faith to the current situation. Thank 00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:35.440 you, Jonathan. So you're saying... But so many 00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:38.720 of us have been trying to say to fellow Christians 00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:43.059 that once we understand that Jesus is nonviolent 00:29:43.059 --> 00:29:46.480 and a person of universal love and a resistor, 00:29:46.619 --> 00:29:50.099 and he was killed by the empire because of that, 00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:54.279 well, then we can't support any of this state 00:29:54.279 --> 00:29:57.740 violence or occupation or nuclear threats on 00:29:57.740 --> 00:30:01.230 any side, and we're all being brainwashed. by 00:30:01.230 --> 00:30:03.369 the ruling authorities these days. I'm talking 00:30:03.369 --> 00:30:07.930 about U .S. Christians, you know, to go ahead 00:30:07.930 --> 00:30:10.130 and somebody's making a lot of money off of the 00:30:10.130 --> 00:30:14.910 death of children in Gaza. So now you also have 00:30:14.910 --> 00:30:18.089 a newly updated book, Beyond the Two -State Solution. 00:30:18.269 --> 00:30:21.490 I wonder if you could say a word about that. 00:30:21.569 --> 00:30:25.789 I'm not going to ask you where the hope is. But 00:30:25.789 --> 00:30:28.829 the future, to me, the hope is, as you've said, 00:30:28.950 --> 00:30:31.390 in Jesus and the kingdom of God and trying to 00:30:31.390 --> 00:30:33.930 live it and welcome it. But in your newly updated 00:30:33.930 --> 00:30:38.410 book, you talk about the reality of these two 00:30:38.410 --> 00:30:41.150 peoples with this horrific occupation history 00:30:41.150 --> 00:30:47.150 over these last 80 years or so. needing to live 00:30:47.150 --> 00:30:50.109 together in maybe a nonviolent universal state. 00:30:50.190 --> 00:30:53.210 Tell us a little bit about your book. Well, people 00:30:53.210 --> 00:30:57.470 can download it for free, actually, from the 00:30:57.470 --> 00:31:03.190 website of nonviolenceinternational .net. One 00:31:03.190 --> 00:31:06.869 word, nonviolenceinternational .net. If you go 00:31:06.869 --> 00:31:10.289 there, you can download the book for free. And 00:31:10.289 --> 00:31:12.930 it has a short executive summary at the back 00:31:12.930 --> 00:31:14.849 for those who don't like to read the whole book. 00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:21.000 They can just read the summary. And basically, 00:31:21.259 --> 00:31:28.420 it puts out a vision for what can be a peaceful 00:31:28.420 --> 00:31:35.319 solution to Israel -Palestine, a state where 00:31:35.319 --> 00:31:39.380 both Jews and Palestinian Arabs can live together 00:31:39.380 --> 00:31:43.940 as equal in a state that respects their rights. 00:31:44.839 --> 00:31:48.720 and allows them to live their rights regardless 00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:51.240 of who's in the majority and who's in the minority. 00:31:51.819 --> 00:31:56.799 So it's not an issue of a demographic control 00:31:56.799 --> 00:32:00.460 by one party over the other. You need to respect 00:32:00.460 --> 00:32:03.740 both groups and you need to respect the individuals 00:32:03.740 --> 00:32:07.259 and you need to understand where people are coming 00:32:07.259 --> 00:32:09.440 from and what's their history and what's their 00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:12.920 background, what's their traumas and what's their 00:32:12.920 --> 00:32:16.109 hopes and fears. And it is possible for people 00:32:16.109 --> 00:32:19.849 to live together. People say, oh, they hate each 00:32:19.849 --> 00:32:21.809 other. They've always hated each other. That's 00:32:21.809 --> 00:32:25.450 not true. People can live together, have lived 00:32:25.450 --> 00:32:28.490 together in the past, and will hopefully live 00:32:28.490 --> 00:32:31.529 together once again in the future. But to do 00:32:31.529 --> 00:32:34.329 so, they have to abandon at least one thing, 00:32:34.410 --> 00:32:37.950 which is the idea of exclusivity, that they're 00:32:37.950 --> 00:32:41.990 the only people who own this land. whether it's 00:32:41.990 --> 00:32:43.990 because God gave it to them or because they are 00:32:43.990 --> 00:32:46.309 powerful enough to control it or because they 00:32:46.309 --> 00:32:51.089 have military power over it or whether they have 00:32:51.089 --> 00:32:54.910 historical claim over it. It's not yours alone. 00:32:55.269 --> 00:32:59.730 It's yours to share with others who also love 00:32:59.730 --> 00:33:02.250 this land and want to be in it and want to live 00:33:02.250 --> 00:33:05.210 in it. So if you are willing to live as equal 00:33:05.210 --> 00:33:08.750 in the same state, we can, in fact, live together. 00:33:09.390 --> 00:33:13.569 So it's my own vision. Some people say it may 00:33:13.569 --> 00:33:19.829 be a little bit utopian, a little bit too hopeful, 00:33:20.009 --> 00:33:24.750 but it just shows that it is possible. It is 00:33:24.750 --> 00:33:27.329 possible to solve this problem. This problem 00:33:27.329 --> 00:33:31.329 is not that complicated. It becomes complicated 00:33:31.329 --> 00:33:34.450 when one side says, this is mine and mine alone, 00:33:34.529 --> 00:33:38.410 and I don't care about anybody else. I want to 00:33:38.410 --> 00:33:41.230 keep it all for myself. Yeah. It's about money 00:33:41.230 --> 00:33:44.950 and selfishness and greed and therefore violence. 00:33:45.170 --> 00:33:48.670 Thank you for holding up that vision. For our 00:33:48.670 --> 00:33:51.289 listeners, for people in the United States and 00:33:51.289 --> 00:33:54.829 North America, a big reality of all of this, 00:33:54.829 --> 00:33:59.089 of course, is that we have funded with millions 00:33:59.089 --> 00:34:02.849 and billions and billions of dollars the ongoing 00:34:02.849 --> 00:34:07.009 occupation of the Palestinian people by... the 00:34:07.009 --> 00:34:11.110 Israeli state and the war and the killings, as 00:34:11.110 --> 00:34:15.329 opposed to funding nonviolent solutions and justice 00:34:15.329 --> 00:34:18.489 for everyone on all sides and peace building 00:34:18.489 --> 00:34:22.409 programs. I read somewhere, and maybe you can 00:34:22.409 --> 00:34:25.510 correct me, I think it's $10 million a day. Is 00:34:25.510 --> 00:34:27.989 that correct, that the U .S. pays for Israel? 00:34:28.449 --> 00:34:32.989 Oh, way beyond that, way beyond that. Yeah. It's 00:34:32.989 --> 00:34:37.269 billions and billions of dollars. And I think 00:34:37.269 --> 00:34:40.630 more than the money that's being spent and the 00:34:40.630 --> 00:34:45.170 weapons that are being sent is the U .S. protecting 00:34:45.170 --> 00:34:50.670 Israel from international law and from international 00:34:50.670 --> 00:34:55.769 organizations and from the application of standards 00:34:55.769 --> 00:34:59.869 which are expected of everybody. Somehow, if 00:34:59.869 --> 00:35:03.329 the Palestinians try to use law and try to go 00:35:03.329 --> 00:35:06.469 to the International Criminal Court and try to 00:35:06.469 --> 00:35:09.570 go to the International Court of Justice, the 00:35:09.570 --> 00:35:12.789 US tries to punish even the court and even the 00:35:12.789 --> 00:35:17.750 judges for daring to challenge Israel and its 00:35:17.750 --> 00:35:22.320 policies. So, unfortunately, our country, the 00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:25.539 United States, is part of the problem here and 00:35:25.539 --> 00:35:27.820 not part of the solution. So that leads to the 00:35:27.820 --> 00:35:30.320 question and what I wanted to get at, which is 00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:33.380 we have a responsibility, the people of the United 00:35:33.380 --> 00:35:36.159 States, especially Christians. And this is what 00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:40.059 Reverend Munther Isaac has been appealing to 00:35:40.059 --> 00:35:42.559 everybody, the Christian churches in the U .S. 00:35:44.730 --> 00:35:50.050 totally invested in war and occupation. And we 00:35:50.050 --> 00:35:52.590 all have to take responsibility for that and 00:35:52.590 --> 00:35:56.670 figure out a way to stop the funding of the U 00:35:56.670 --> 00:35:59.789 .S. funding of the occupation and killings. So 00:35:59.789 --> 00:36:01.789 I want to put the question to you, which is, 00:36:01.809 --> 00:36:05.980 again, outrageous, but what do you suggest we 00:36:05.980 --> 00:36:09.219 ordinary Christians can do here in the U .S. 00:36:09.300 --> 00:36:13.199 to promote and end to the occupation and the 00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:18.000 genocide and the war on Gaza and Palestine? And 00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:21.239 I know you've talked about biblical approach, 00:36:21.420 --> 00:36:24.099 study the scriptures, look at what Jesus would 00:36:24.099 --> 00:36:27.380 do, and pray over that. So that's, I'm presuming 00:36:27.380 --> 00:36:29.480 that. Do you have any other suggestions? And 00:36:29.480 --> 00:36:33.340 maybe a first one would be check out FASNA, because 00:36:33.340 --> 00:36:37.059 you're the leading solidary group. I think so. 00:36:37.420 --> 00:36:41.800 There's a lot that can be done. One problem with 00:36:41.800 --> 00:36:45.320 trying to do things through the political process 00:36:46.119 --> 00:36:48.619 is that the political process in the United States 00:36:48.619 --> 00:36:54.539 is truly broken. And it is truly subject to control 00:36:54.539 --> 00:37:01.619 by those who have money and power. Somehow, we 00:37:01.619 --> 00:37:06.599 have lost the democratic principle of government 00:37:06.599 --> 00:37:09.719 by the people. It's now government by the billionaires, 00:37:09.820 --> 00:37:14.260 government by the lobbies, government by... Those 00:37:14.260 --> 00:37:18.780 who have money, they can buy and they can influence 00:37:18.780 --> 00:37:22.159 elections and they can influence politicians 00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:26.719 against the wishes of the population. So at that 00:37:26.719 --> 00:37:30.199 level, I think we need some major reforms of 00:37:30.199 --> 00:37:33.679 the political process. But even without thinking 00:37:33.679 --> 00:37:36.460 about the political process, there's a lot that 00:37:36.460 --> 00:37:40.929 we can do in divestment. boycotts and sanctions. 00:37:41.510 --> 00:37:47.030 Ordinary people can participate through their 00:37:47.030 --> 00:37:53.010 activism, through their money, through who they 00:37:53.010 --> 00:37:56.349 support and who they don't, through education, 00:37:56.750 --> 00:38:00.030 through learning, and through solidarity, people 00:38:00.030 --> 00:38:03.489 working together. There are a lot of very, very 00:38:03.489 --> 00:38:06.769 good people in this country. And when they work 00:38:06.769 --> 00:38:10.719 jointly, when they work together, they can achieve 00:38:10.719 --> 00:38:14.360 a lot and they can be very influential. This 00:38:14.360 --> 00:38:17.340 is a powerful country. And this is a country 00:38:17.340 --> 00:38:20.420 with many resources. And for all its problems 00:38:20.420 --> 00:38:24.639 and all its mistakes, there is still a huge margin 00:38:24.639 --> 00:38:31.320 for good people to act together in solidarity, 00:38:31.559 --> 00:38:37.159 to organize together. for good causes throughout 00:38:37.159 --> 00:38:40.400 the world, not just in Israel, Palestine. So 00:38:40.400 --> 00:38:45.099 I am not giving up yet on this country and on 00:38:45.099 --> 00:38:48.579 the ability of people in this country to act 00:38:48.579 --> 00:38:52.239 and to bring about good change throughout the 00:38:52.239 --> 00:38:56.119 world, despite our broken system. But in the 00:38:56.119 --> 00:39:01.110 end, we are Christians. And we are not responsible 00:39:01.110 --> 00:39:04.809 for the ultimate outcomes. We are responsible 00:39:04.809 --> 00:39:08.110 for our own actions. We are called to obedience. 00:39:08.269 --> 00:39:12.869 We are not called to great successes. We are 00:39:12.869 --> 00:39:17.210 called to reflect the principles of the kingdom 00:39:17.210 --> 00:39:22.590 of God. We pray, may your will be done on earth 00:39:22.590 --> 00:39:27.369 as it is in heaven. So we are seeking to do God's 00:39:27.369 --> 00:39:32.630 will on earth. knowing that ultimately things 00:39:32.630 --> 00:39:35.989 are in God's hands, not in our hands. We are 00:39:35.989 --> 00:39:41.610 called to be obedient servants and to speak prophetically 00:39:41.610 --> 00:39:45.449 and to act prophetically and to point the way 00:39:45.449 --> 00:39:49.309 to a better future for everybody in this world. 00:39:49.389 --> 00:39:52.050 Thank you so much, Jonathan. Well, that's... 00:39:52.909 --> 00:39:55.489 A beautiful way to end. I just normally like 00:39:55.489 --> 00:39:58.369 to ask folks, is there anything else you would 00:39:58.369 --> 00:40:00.889 like to add or any last word of encouragement 00:40:00.889 --> 00:40:04.710 to our listeners to keep doing what they can 00:40:04.710 --> 00:40:08.429 for peace? Maybe you just did that. I think I 00:40:08.429 --> 00:40:11.909 just did. All right. I know a lot of people look 00:40:11.909 --> 00:40:15.909 at the situation, it's so awful, and they fall 00:40:15.909 --> 00:40:19.289 into despair. They don't have hope. And I say, 00:40:19.309 --> 00:40:22.960 no, no, don't despair. Don't give up. You know, 00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:26.139 we are a people of the resurrection. We are a 00:40:26.139 --> 00:40:31.219 people who believe that evil will not have the 00:40:31.219 --> 00:40:34.940 last word, that Jesus has already conquered, 00:40:35.219 --> 00:40:40.960 and that we are just holding the fort in the 00:40:40.960 --> 00:40:44.719 meanwhile. And we're just being called on to 00:40:44.719 --> 00:40:47.599 obedience. We have to be obedient and we have 00:40:47.599 --> 00:40:52.340 to be... honest, and we have to be truthful, 00:40:52.760 --> 00:40:57.820 and we have to have integrity as we speak the 00:40:57.820 --> 00:41:00.360 truth in very difficult times and under very 00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:03.440 difficult circumstances, because we have hope 00:41:03.440 --> 00:41:06.920 in the ultimate victory of good over evil. Wow, 00:41:07.139 --> 00:41:09.780 that's perfect. Thank you so much, Jonathan, 00:41:09.960 --> 00:41:13.019 for saying that. I'm so glad I asked you. And 00:41:13.019 --> 00:41:15.739 thank you for all the great work you do. So, 00:41:15.739 --> 00:41:19.550 dear friends listening, Please check out Jonathan 00:41:19.550 --> 00:41:26.070 Katab at fasna .org. Also look up Sabil, the 00:41:26.070 --> 00:41:29.030 Kairos Palestine document, Jonathan's books, 00:41:29.309 --> 00:41:33.829 nonviolenceinternational .net. And as he says, 00:41:33.989 --> 00:41:37.070 read about the nonviolent Jesus, look at what's 00:41:37.070 --> 00:41:39.630 happening, and pray over what you can do. And 00:41:39.630 --> 00:41:43.409 there's a lot of... steps you can take at fasna 00:41:43.409 --> 00:41:45.969 .org. Thanks for listening to this Nonviolent 00:41:45.969 --> 00:41:49.250 Jesus podcast, and you can hear more podcasts 00:41:49.250 --> 00:41:53.170 and find other upcoming Zoom programs at beatitudescenter 00:41:53.170 --> 00:41:58.329 .org and sign up there to receive our free e 00:41:58.329 --> 00:42:01.210 -blast with news about other upcoming podcasts 00:42:01.210 --> 00:42:05.010 and Zooms. Thanks for also checking out my new 00:42:05.010 --> 00:42:08.130 book called Universal Love. which you can get 00:42:08.130 --> 00:42:12.250 at orbisbooks .com or elsewhere, and you can 00:42:12.250 --> 00:42:15.510 read some excerpts about it on Substack. And 00:42:15.510 --> 00:42:19.210 please help spread the word about this podcast 00:42:19.210 --> 00:42:21.130 and tell your friends and other church folks 00:42:21.130 --> 00:42:23.670 about it. And may the God of peace bless you 00:42:23.670 --> 00:42:26.269 all. Keep on following the nonviolent Jesus, 00:42:26.429 --> 00:42:29.750 and let's together work and walk toward that 00:42:29.750 --> 00:42:33.130 vision of a new world, a new kingdom of universal 00:42:33.130 --> 00:42:36.190 love, peace, and nonviolence. See you next time.