WEBVTT 00:00:15.080 --> 00:00:18.219 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:18.219 --> 00:00:21.460 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:21.460 --> 00:00:25.019 with my friend. one of our strongest voices for 00:00:25.019 --> 00:00:28.879 peace and against war, Anne Wright. This is a 00:00:28.879 --> 00:00:34.420 project of www .beatitudecenter .org, where you 00:00:34.420 --> 00:00:36.619 can find many other podcasts and regular Zoom 00:00:36.619 --> 00:00:39.960 programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and practicing 00:00:39.960 --> 00:00:42.939 nonviolence and working for a more just, more 00:00:42.939 --> 00:00:46.020 nonviolent, more peaceful world. So let's begin 00:00:46.020 --> 00:00:48.859 with a little prayer, as we always do here. So 00:00:48.859 --> 00:00:51.100 I invite you, wherever you are, just to take 00:00:51.100 --> 00:00:56.719 a deep breath. and to relax and to recenter yourself. 00:00:58.439 --> 00:01:01.399 And together, let's enter into the presence of 00:01:01.399 --> 00:01:05.439 the God of peace who loves you personally and 00:01:05.439 --> 00:01:09.920 infinitely and everyone everywhere. And we welcome 00:01:09.920 --> 00:01:13.799 the nonviolent Jesus here with us and ask for 00:01:13.799 --> 00:01:17.700 whatever graces we need to do God's will and 00:01:17.700 --> 00:01:20.579 become the peacemakers we were created to be. 00:01:24.489 --> 00:01:27.730 God of peace, thank you for all the blessings 00:01:27.730 --> 00:01:30.569 of life, love, and peace that you give us. Be 00:01:30.569 --> 00:01:33.870 with us now as we reflect together on your call 00:01:33.870 --> 00:01:37.010 to follow the nonviolent Jesus and work for a 00:01:37.010 --> 00:01:40.450 more nonviolent, more just world. Bless us, inspire 00:01:40.450 --> 00:01:44.170 us, disarm us, strengthen us, and send us out 00:01:44.170 --> 00:01:47.469 to do your will and to do our part to help end 00:01:47.469 --> 00:01:52.750 war and poverty, racism, greed, injustice. fascism, 00:01:52.769 --> 00:01:54.989 nuclear weapons, and environmental destruction, 00:01:55.129 --> 00:01:59.310 that we might be your holy peacemakers and welcome 00:01:59.310 --> 00:02:02.750 your reign of universal love, nonviolence, and 00:02:02.750 --> 00:02:06.930 peace on earth. In Jesus' name we pray. Well, 00:02:06.989 --> 00:02:09.389 friends, it's a great blessing to welcome today 00:02:09.389 --> 00:02:12.550 my friend Anne Wright to speak with us about 00:02:12.550 --> 00:02:17.169 her life of working to end war and to promote 00:02:17.169 --> 00:02:20.960 peace and disarmament. Anne Wright is a retired 00:02:20.960 --> 00:02:24.460 U .S. Army colonel who worked in the military 00:02:24.460 --> 00:02:28.580 for 29 years, 13 on active duty and 16 in the 00:02:28.580 --> 00:02:32.479 Army Reserves, as well as a retired U .S. State 00:02:32.479 --> 00:02:35.719 Department official. She was a diplomat for 16 00:02:35.719 --> 00:02:40.120 years and served in U .S. embassies such as Nicaragua, 00:02:40.259 --> 00:02:44.740 Granada. Somalia, Uzbekistan, Sierra Leone, Micronesia, 00:02:44.780 --> 00:02:49.699 Mongolia, and including Afghanistan. In 1997, 00:02:50.300 --> 00:02:53.599 Anne was awarded the State Department Award for 00:02:53.599 --> 00:02:57.639 Heroism after helping to evacuate several thousand 00:02:57.639 --> 00:03:01.259 people during the Civil War in Sierra Leone. 00:03:02.030 --> 00:03:06.250 Now, Ann achieved a lot of notoriety in March 00:03:06.250 --> 00:03:11.009 2003, just when George W. Bush started the massive 00:03:11.009 --> 00:03:15.009 bombing war on Iraq. She was one of three State 00:03:15.009 --> 00:03:19.569 Department officials to publicly resign in protest 00:03:19.569 --> 00:03:23.219 of the U .S. war in Iraq. Since then, she has 00:03:23.219 --> 00:03:26.020 become a full -time activist working to end war, 00:03:26.219 --> 00:03:29.759 often working with organizations that I'm involved 00:03:29.759 --> 00:03:33.180 with, too, such as Veterans for Peace, Code Pink, 00:03:33.599 --> 00:03:36.680 the International Peace Bureau, World Beyond 00:03:36.680 --> 00:03:42.379 War, No to NATO, and Women Across DMZ, many other 00:03:42.379 --> 00:03:45.599 groups. She regularly travels to places the U 00:03:45.599 --> 00:03:48.060 .S. government does not want U .S. citizens to 00:03:48.060 --> 00:03:52.770 go, such as Iran. North Korea, Yemen, Afghanistan, 00:03:53.009 --> 00:03:56.430 Nicaragua. She's about to leave for Cuba, and 00:03:56.430 --> 00:03:59.389 she's often going there to study the effects 00:03:59.389 --> 00:04:02.650 of U .S. policies and the effects of our wars. 00:04:02.810 --> 00:04:05.330 She's been a coordinator in particular with the 00:04:05.330 --> 00:04:09.430 Gaza Freedom Flotilla for 16 years and has been 00:04:09.430 --> 00:04:13.669 jailed in Israeli prisons twice. She travels 00:04:13.669 --> 00:04:17.329 and speaks widely on war and peace. especially 00:04:17.329 --> 00:04:22.350 Palestine and the Israeli genocide in Gaza and 00:04:22.350 --> 00:04:26.769 the ethnic cleansing in the West Bank. She's 00:04:26.769 --> 00:04:29.250 coming to us from Hawaii, where she lives, and 00:04:29.250 --> 00:04:32.410 is the co -author of the book Descent, Voices 00:04:32.410 --> 00:04:35.310 of Conscience, and many other articles. Please 00:04:35.310 --> 00:04:39.129 check out her website, which is voicesofconscience 00:04:39.129 --> 00:04:42.569 .com. Anne Wright, welcome to the Nonviolent 00:04:42.569 --> 00:04:45.850 Jesus Podcast. Well, thank you, John. It's a 00:04:45.850 --> 00:04:49.009 pleasure to be with you. Great. Well, I was just 00:04:49.009 --> 00:04:52.370 trying to recall, you know, knowing you, and 00:04:52.370 --> 00:04:54.970 we've been together all around the world several 00:04:54.970 --> 00:04:58.230 times, including places like Cairo during the 00:04:58.230 --> 00:05:01.550 Gaza Freedom March, Kabul, Afghanistan together. 00:05:02.129 --> 00:05:05.560 You came out to Los Alamos at one of our... protests, 00:05:05.699 --> 00:05:08.339 at least one, maybe more. But we've been in a 00:05:08.339 --> 00:05:10.379 lot of other demonstrations at the White House 00:05:10.379 --> 00:05:13.839 and I think the United Nations. Your journey 00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:18.079 is remarkable from being in the military and 00:05:18.079 --> 00:05:21.699 then being a really a career diplomat, even in 00:05:21.699 --> 00:05:25.259 the embassy at Afghanistan, toward resigning 00:05:25.259 --> 00:05:29.019 and then becoming a full -time activist and advocate 00:05:29.019 --> 00:05:33.379 for peace in March 2003. I really want to get 00:05:33.379 --> 00:05:36.300 into your activism, but can you tell me something 00:05:36.300 --> 00:05:40.800 about that journey and especially why you resigned 00:05:40.800 --> 00:05:45.899 and so publicly? And how is it that you did and 00:05:45.899 --> 00:05:49.319 how come thousands of others aren't? You know, 00:05:49.319 --> 00:05:53.740 what happened? Well, John, thank you very much. 00:05:55.310 --> 00:05:57.310 You know, it was quite a journey. I spent most 00:05:57.310 --> 00:06:00.170 of my adult life in the U .S. government. I joined 00:06:00.170 --> 00:06:03.750 the military, as many young people do, to get 00:06:03.750 --> 00:06:06.129 away from something. And I was getting away from 00:06:06.129 --> 00:06:09.589 the state of Arkansas, where I grew up. I wanted 00:06:09.589 --> 00:06:13.230 to go see the world. And back in the 60s, the 00:06:13.230 --> 00:06:16.029 jobs for women, you know, were very honorable. 00:06:16.189 --> 00:06:21.699 School teachers, secretaries, homemakers. I wanted 00:06:21.699 --> 00:06:24.259 to get moving out of Arkansas. So when the Army 00:06:24.259 --> 00:06:26.839 recruiter came through, like so many other young 00:06:26.839 --> 00:06:29.199 people, join the Army, see the world, and that's 00:06:29.199 --> 00:06:31.620 what I wanted to do. And I was very lucky that 00:06:31.620 --> 00:06:35.079 I had good leadership. I was not sexually assaulted. 00:06:35.720 --> 00:06:39.040 I was certainly harassed as a woman because less 00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:42.079 than 1 % of the people in the military at the 00:06:42.079 --> 00:06:45.779 time were women. Now it's up to 17%. But right 00:06:45.779 --> 00:06:48.959 now, well, it's always been difficult, but under 00:06:48.959 --> 00:06:52.240 the current administration. Pete Hegseth as Secretary 00:06:52.240 --> 00:06:56.040 of Defense. They're really going after the role 00:06:56.040 --> 00:06:59.319 of women in the military. All that to say, then 00:06:59.319 --> 00:07:03.660 I joined the State Department and became a U 00:07:03.660 --> 00:07:07.639 .S. diplomat in all those places that you said. 00:07:07.959 --> 00:07:13.560 It was finally when the Bush administration decided 00:07:13.560 --> 00:07:18.259 to invade and occupy Iraq with no real evidence 00:07:18.259 --> 00:07:21.939 at all. weapons of mass destruction. I and three 00:07:21.939 --> 00:07:25.100 others, two others actually, decided that we 00:07:25.100 --> 00:07:28.139 would resign. And why more people didn't? Well, 00:07:28.259 --> 00:07:33.120 it's part of the realities of life that you've 00:07:33.120 --> 00:07:35.180 got kids in college, you've got mortgages, you've 00:07:35.180 --> 00:07:37.740 got the need for a steady income. And just like 00:07:37.740 --> 00:07:40.819 right now, for the genocide in Gaza, we've only 00:07:40.819 --> 00:07:43.699 had 14 people from the federal government that 00:07:43.699 --> 00:07:47.970 have resigned. However, now with the massive 00:07:47.970 --> 00:07:53.009 slicing and burning of the federal government, 00:07:53.149 --> 00:07:55.329 there are plenty of people, I think, who probably 00:07:55.329 --> 00:07:59.470 in their moral compass knew they should be resigning. 00:07:59.550 --> 00:08:01.329 Well, they're kicked out of government anyway. 00:08:01.449 --> 00:08:03.889 So I hope because of the slashing and burning, 00:08:03.949 --> 00:08:06.889 and I hope they're out on the streets to use 00:08:06.889 --> 00:08:10.149 their conscience for saying to this administration, 00:08:10.370 --> 00:08:13.899 no to. all of the crazy things that are happening 00:08:13.899 --> 00:08:18.279 right now, including immigration detentions and 00:08:18.279 --> 00:08:23.860 killings because of witnessing abuses that ICE 00:08:23.860 --> 00:08:26.360 and other federal agents are doing, much less 00:08:26.360 --> 00:08:33.000 an invasion of Venezuela to kidnap the leader 00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:37.360 of Venezuela, the attacks on Iran, and apparently 00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:41.139 the need for us to invade and occupy Greenland. 00:08:41.480 --> 00:08:44.000 So if that isn't enough for people to get busy 00:08:44.000 --> 00:08:46.080 and get out on the streets, I don't know what 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:51.080 is. Hey, Ann, thank you. So what a journey then. 00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:58.159 Now, to the friends listening, Ann travels. around 00:08:58.159 --> 00:09:01.019 the world into war zones more than anybody I 00:09:01.019 --> 00:09:05.840 know. And if she's not around the world, she's 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:07.980 on the street somewhere. I know this because 00:09:07.980 --> 00:09:10.480 I keep running into her and I hear reports of 00:09:10.480 --> 00:09:14.080 sightings. She's like the risen Jesus in the 00:09:14.080 --> 00:09:16.840 underground movement popping up here and there. 00:09:17.039 --> 00:09:20.059 So in other words to the listeners, there's so 00:09:20.059 --> 00:09:23.159 much to talk about with Anne. What I propose 00:09:23.159 --> 00:09:26.450 is going through several countries. Because it's 00:09:26.450 --> 00:09:29.549 not chronological with Anne. So, Anne, I'd like 00:09:29.549 --> 00:09:32.629 to ask you a little bit about Iraq and then Afghanistan. 00:09:32.769 --> 00:09:34.870 Then we'll talk about Palestine and so forth. 00:09:34.990 --> 00:09:39.929 Okay. So you stepped down in March 2003 when 00:09:39.929 --> 00:09:43.009 this horrific bombing war in Iraq begins. Tell 00:09:43.009 --> 00:09:46.950 me about all your experience and what you did 00:09:46.950 --> 00:09:51.590 to try to stop the war in Iraq. Well, I was the 00:09:51.590 --> 00:09:57.070 deputy ambassador in Mongolia. when the lead 00:09:57.070 --> 00:10:00.129 -up to the war in Iraq was going on. I had just 00:10:00.129 --> 00:10:02.750 come from being in Afghanistan, helping reopen 00:10:02.750 --> 00:10:05.370 the embassy there. But I was in Mongolia, and 00:10:05.370 --> 00:10:08.450 there was all this hype about weapons of mass 00:10:08.450 --> 00:10:11.309 destruction. We needed to go in and take them 00:10:11.309 --> 00:10:16.169 out, take Saddam Hussein out. And it was like, 00:10:16.289 --> 00:10:20.929 you know, it just didn't meet the smell test. 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:25.860 Over the years, from the 1990s, we had been hearing 00:10:25.860 --> 00:10:30.159 from the UN inspectors, many of whom were US 00:10:30.159 --> 00:10:34.519 intelligence persons who were on the UN team 00:10:34.519 --> 00:10:37.000 looking for weapons of mass destruction. And 00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:40.039 those members of that team said, the weapons 00:10:40.039 --> 00:10:42.340 of mass destruction Iraq had have already been 00:10:42.340 --> 00:10:45.379 destroyed. There are none. And finally, it was 00:10:45.379 --> 00:10:46.980 like, well, they're just lying through their 00:10:46.980 --> 00:10:49.740 teeth again. And I'd been in the government, 00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:54.059 you know. for almost, well, 35 years at that 00:10:54.059 --> 00:10:56.080 point between the Army and the State Department. 00:10:56.360 --> 00:10:59.220 And it's like, you know, I've had enough. I am 00:10:59.220 --> 00:11:02.919 not going to go along with this next thing that 00:11:02.919 --> 00:11:05.919 an administration is cooking up. By that time, 00:11:05.960 --> 00:11:08.179 that was the eighth presidential administration 00:11:08.179 --> 00:11:11.679 that I had been in and held my nose to plenty 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:14.759 of policies but never resigned. So this one, 00:11:14.779 --> 00:11:18.159 it was like, well, I just decided I was going 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:22.529 to. going to resign. And whether or not my resignation 00:11:22.529 --> 00:11:25.529 got any publicity, you know, we didn't know. 00:11:25.610 --> 00:11:29.289 That wasn't why I was resigning. It was on my 00:11:29.289 --> 00:11:33.350 own morality and my own conscience that I just 00:11:33.350 --> 00:11:36.210 could not be a part of what I knew was going 00:11:36.210 --> 00:11:42.029 to be a horrific, horrific death of so many people 00:11:42.029 --> 00:11:46.710 in Iraq. So that's what, you know, a cold, cold 00:11:46.710 --> 00:11:50.360 morning. The winter of Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia, 00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:55.200 I finally finished what they said later was the 00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:58.320 longest letter of resignation that the State 00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:00.259 Department had ever had. That was three and a 00:12:00.259 --> 00:12:02.679 half pages. So I let them have it for all the 00:12:02.679 --> 00:12:06.340 other things I was concerned about, too. And 00:12:06.340 --> 00:12:08.879 then did you ever go to Iraq on a peace mission? 00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:13.399 Nope, I never did. I never joined so many peace 00:12:13.399 --> 00:12:17.840 people who were there during the actual. shock 00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:21.139 and awe, like Kathy Kelly and all the people 00:12:21.139 --> 00:12:24.379 that had spent years since Gulf War I, and then 00:12:24.379 --> 00:12:27.740 the attack, Kathy and so many others had gone 00:12:27.740 --> 00:12:31.899 to Iraq. But I just had a feeling in my stomach 00:12:31.899 --> 00:12:35.960 that that was one place, because I had resigned 00:12:35.960 --> 00:12:43.440 over it, that I just felt that, you know, I just 00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:45.500 felt that wanted to be the end. If I went there, 00:12:45.539 --> 00:12:48.820 I'd be a target. I want to live my life to do 00:12:48.820 --> 00:12:51.759 some other things, too. Good. I remember you 00:12:51.759 --> 00:12:54.539 reminding me I was you know, I went to Iraq in 00:12:54.539 --> 00:12:57.519 the 90s with some Nobel Peace Prize winners. 00:12:57.720 --> 00:13:00.620 It was so clear that this was way before 2003. 00:13:01.340 --> 00:13:04.539 There were no weapons of mass destruction. But 00:13:04.539 --> 00:13:07.679 when that war started, I'm living in New Mexico 00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:10.740 and we have Los Alamos in our backyard. And that's 00:13:10.740 --> 00:13:13.419 when we were starting the campaign there. And 00:13:13.419 --> 00:13:16.860 our main message for years was. President George 00:13:16.860 --> 00:13:19.779 W. Bush, there are no weapons of mass destruction 00:13:19.779 --> 00:13:22.759 in Iraq, so stop the war. Don't bomb them. But 00:13:22.759 --> 00:13:26.100 we found them. They're here in New Mexico. Don't 00:13:26.100 --> 00:13:28.679 bomb us. Just come and get rid of them. And then 00:13:28.679 --> 00:13:31.379 we would issue just outrageous statements that 00:13:31.379 --> 00:13:36.460 would get tons of publicity. Well, then the Afghanistan 00:13:36.460 --> 00:13:41.649 war. And you had actually helped reopen the embassy. 00:13:41.950 --> 00:13:44.909 Tell us about your experiences in solidarity 00:13:44.909 --> 00:13:47.590 with the people, the suffering people of Afghanistan. 00:13:48.830 --> 00:13:52.309 Well, yes, I volunteered to go to Afghanistan 00:13:52.309 --> 00:13:55.509 to help reopen an embassy that had been closed 00:13:55.509 --> 00:13:58.830 for 12 years. And one of the reasons I wanted 00:13:58.830 --> 00:14:02.039 to. to go is that, well, first I'd had experiences 00:14:02.039 --> 00:14:06.200 in opening and closing embassies. That happened 00:14:06.200 --> 00:14:08.559 in Sierra Leone. We had to close an embassy because 00:14:08.559 --> 00:14:12.120 of a civil war, and then we reopened it eight 00:14:12.120 --> 00:14:14.340 months later. So I'd had that experience. Plus, 00:14:14.419 --> 00:14:18.120 I'd been in the military, and I know that we 00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:20.340 had a large number of military people that were 00:14:20.340 --> 00:14:23.700 starting to move into Afghanistan. following 00:14:23.700 --> 00:14:26.700 the massive CIA presence that was there. The 00:14:26.700 --> 00:14:29.940 CIA really went in first with its own Air Force 00:14:29.940 --> 00:14:34.519 and brought in lots of paramilitary CIA, and 00:14:34.519 --> 00:14:37.879 then U .S. Special Forces came. And I wanted 00:14:37.879 --> 00:14:39.919 to see what was happening because it seemed to 00:14:39.919 --> 00:14:43.179 me like after 9 -11 that we were going after 00:14:43.179 --> 00:14:45.980 the leadership of al -Qaeda, but why in the world 00:14:45.980 --> 00:14:48.759 were we starting to put military in? Because 00:14:48.759 --> 00:14:52.450 it sure seemed to me like it was like a... a 00:14:52.450 --> 00:14:55.470 police, a law enforcement, that sort of operation 00:14:55.470 --> 00:15:00.070 rather than invading a whole country over this 00:15:00.070 --> 00:15:03.909 thing. So I wanted to go to see what was happening. 00:15:04.009 --> 00:15:07.690 And I ended up being there for, well, almost 00:15:07.690 --> 00:15:10.230 two months before they started bringing in people 00:15:10.230 --> 00:15:13.169 who were going to be more of the permanent staff 00:15:13.169 --> 00:15:16.070 of the embassy. But during that two -month period, 00:15:16.169 --> 00:15:18.990 I got to travel around quite a bit of the country 00:15:18.990 --> 00:15:22.480 because the Taliban had... had started laying 00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:25.539 low. Some of the leadership had headed to the 00:15:25.539 --> 00:15:27.899 hills with the al -Qaeda group, but most of them 00:15:27.899 --> 00:15:30.860 just buried their weapons and just hung out at 00:15:30.860 --> 00:15:34.639 home and didn't really take potshots at the U 00:15:34.639 --> 00:15:38.639 .S. forces until quite a bit later. So we could 00:15:38.639 --> 00:15:42.919 travel throughout most of Afghanistan in those 00:15:42.919 --> 00:15:47.659 early days. And it was getting to meet the people 00:15:47.659 --> 00:15:51.070 throughout the country, getting to meet the senior 00:15:51.070 --> 00:15:53.450 leadership of the new civilian government that 00:15:53.450 --> 00:15:56.029 was coming in and all of these people all they 00:15:56.029 --> 00:15:59.909 wanted was a little peace after this the soviets 00:15:59.909 --> 00:16:02.009 were there for 10 years then the taliban took 00:16:02.009 --> 00:16:05.610 over and then here comes the u .s and it's like 00:16:05.610 --> 00:16:08.710 please can't you all just leave us alone and 00:16:08.710 --> 00:16:11.330 let us have some time for peace for ourselves 00:16:11.330 --> 00:16:15.429 and that didn't quite happen that way i did go 00:16:15.429 --> 00:16:19.639 back Several times after I resigned from the 00:16:19.639 --> 00:16:22.460 government, I went back to meet with organizations 00:16:22.460 --> 00:16:29.700 in Kabul primarily. And at that time, the hope 00:16:29.700 --> 00:16:32.980 was that even though the U .S. was in there massively, 00:16:33.220 --> 00:16:36.299 that indeed the structures of government would 00:16:36.299 --> 00:16:39.620 become very, very strong and the U .S. could 00:16:39.620 --> 00:16:43.200 leave much sooner than the 20 years that it did, 00:16:43.259 --> 00:16:46.379 that it would get out and that... the civilian 00:16:46.379 --> 00:16:50.519 structures of Afghanistan would be able to continue, 00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:55.600 well, begin really the leadership for that country. 00:16:55.940 --> 00:16:59.200 Well, it didn't turn out that way. With the Trump 00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:02.000 administration negotiating with the Taliban for 00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:05.680 the removal of U .S. troops in Trump 1, and then 00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:13.259 Biden and his gang implementing a departure that 00:17:13.259 --> 00:17:18.829 was a very bad way to end the U .S. there, that 00:17:18.829 --> 00:17:21.490 the structures that should have been in place 00:17:21.490 --> 00:17:24.930 were definitely not. And the people of Afghanistan 00:17:24.930 --> 00:17:28.529 now are suffering again under the very, very 00:17:28.529 --> 00:17:36.970 restrictive government of the Taliban. I remember 00:17:36.970 --> 00:17:40.259 when we were there together. And I don't even 00:17:40.259 --> 00:17:43.240 remember the year, maybe 2014 with our friends, 00:17:43.359 --> 00:17:45.900 Mairead McGuire, the prestigious Nobel laureate 00:17:45.900 --> 00:17:49.880 and Shane Claiborne. We were mainly with youth. 00:17:50.220 --> 00:17:53.420 And most of that week, as I recall, Anne, and 00:17:53.420 --> 00:17:55.680 I wanted to see if you'd share any thoughts on 00:17:55.680 --> 00:18:00.099 this. We heard testimonies from these poor kids 00:18:00.099 --> 00:18:04.480 in Kabul who told about how their families out 00:18:04.480 --> 00:18:07.630 in the country. you know, might be gathered around 00:18:07.630 --> 00:18:11.930 the fire one night. And a U .S. drone would fly 00:18:11.930 --> 00:18:16.069 at 30 ,000 feet over them and drop a bomb and 00:18:16.069 --> 00:18:18.210 kill everybody in the village, and the kids survived. 00:18:18.670 --> 00:18:21.430 And so this just went on all day for a couple 00:18:21.430 --> 00:18:24.970 of days. And I learned so much about the horrors 00:18:24.970 --> 00:18:29.430 of the U .S. drone warfare, which was really 00:18:29.430 --> 00:18:31.970 full -on in Afghanistan and maybe one of the 00:18:31.970 --> 00:18:34.920 future things of... Do you have any thoughts 00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:37.339 or recollections or stories about all of that? 00:18:37.880 --> 00:18:41.900 Well, yes. And, you know, particularly the youth 00:18:41.900 --> 00:18:45.299 that came from the outer parts of the country 00:18:45.299 --> 00:18:49.579 and then had come into Kabul to try to get out 00:18:49.579 --> 00:18:53.359 of all of the drone warfare that was going on 00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:55.700 not only in Afghanistan but on the border with 00:18:55.700 --> 00:19:02.920 Pakistan. Then the U .S. was already well deep 00:19:02.920 --> 00:19:06.640 into the drone warfare in Iraq, and they had 00:19:06.640 --> 00:19:11.279 started it in Yemen. So it was heartbreaking. 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:15.440 And in fact, several of us had gone not only 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:18.920 to Afghanistan, but we went to Pakistan on an 00:19:18.920 --> 00:19:27.200 assassin drone. time to talk to people in Afghanistan 00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:30.480 up along the border of what what was happening 00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:32.880 there and then we took another trip and that 00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:36.299 was to Yemen to talk with people from Yemen about 00:19:36.299 --> 00:19:39.500 what the U .S. assassin drone program was doing 00:19:39.500 --> 00:19:43.799 to them in their country so we've been all over 00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:47.279 the place as the as the U .S. continues to use 00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:49.880 these drones and as we're seeing right now it's 00:19:49.880 --> 00:19:54.180 the drone warfare on boats in the Caribbean, 00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:59.500 supposedly going after drug runners, but no evidence 00:19:59.500 --> 00:20:03.180 being presented to anyone that that's what is 00:20:03.180 --> 00:20:05.500 on the boats that they're blowing up. But they're 00:20:05.500 --> 00:20:08.420 using the drones there, and they're going back 00:20:08.420 --> 00:20:11.279 into Afghanistan and blowing people up again 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:13.799 in Afghanistan with these assassin drones. You 00:20:13.799 --> 00:20:16.859 know, Ann, remember that front page New York 00:20:16.859 --> 00:20:20.819 Times report that on Tuesday mornings, First 00:20:20.819 --> 00:20:23.920 thing, Obama would come down to his office, have 00:20:23.920 --> 00:20:26.240 his coffee after sending the kids off to school 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:30.279 and review the assassination list and approve 00:20:30.279 --> 00:20:33.420 the top 30 or 50 assassinations for that week. 00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:35.640 This went on the whole time he was president. 00:20:35.819 --> 00:20:39.160 And there you and I were over in Kabul. And these 00:20:39.160 --> 00:20:42.980 kids would be sobbing, saying. I don't even know 00:20:42.980 --> 00:20:45.500 what the Taliban looks like. I just want to remember 00:20:45.500 --> 00:20:48.519 one of them. And you're telling me that there's 00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:52.859 a plane 30 ,000 feet above the Hindu Kush mountains, 00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:55.420 which is like the Himalayas, and there's no human 00:20:55.420 --> 00:20:59.839 being on this plane. It's full of gasoline, bombs, 00:21:00.460 --> 00:21:04.920 and cameras. And some kid in Las Vegas said... 00:21:05.240 --> 00:21:07.660 like literally a teenager at the Creech Air Force 00:21:07.660 --> 00:21:10.579 Base, is looking at the video and deciding that 00:21:10.579 --> 00:21:13.059 that light from that fire in that village up 00:21:13.059 --> 00:21:15.359 in the mountains must be Taliban, and they blow 00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:17.960 everybody up, and nobody's Taliban there. Nobody 00:21:17.960 --> 00:21:22.299 has uniforms. And you just go... What have we 00:21:22.299 --> 00:21:24.920 become, Ian, you know? Well, indeed, when the 00:21:24.920 --> 00:21:27.519 president of the United States was doing exactly 00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:30.359 what you were saying, that every week he was 00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:33.140 identifying people by name that those drones 00:21:33.140 --> 00:21:36.420 were going to go after. It just, you know, he, 00:21:36.519 --> 00:21:41.180 for the good that he did, he sure did a lot of 00:21:41.180 --> 00:21:43.960 bad, too. And this identification of people to 00:21:43.960 --> 00:21:46.740 be assassinated, I mean, it's just like Trump 00:21:46.740 --> 00:21:50.240 who assassinated the... the top general in Iran 00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:54.519 during his first time in power and now doing 00:21:54.519 --> 00:21:57.299 the assassinations of these people that are in 00:21:57.299 --> 00:22:01.279 these boats in the Caribbean. I will mention 00:22:01.279 --> 00:22:04.220 that there are opportunities in the U .S. for 00:22:04.220 --> 00:22:07.700 people to protest against these assassin drones. 00:22:07.880 --> 00:22:11.960 We still have times now in Holloman Air Force 00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:15.119 Base, New Mexico, part of your old stomping grounds. 00:22:15.609 --> 00:22:18.289 We are now doing protests out there because that 00:22:18.289 --> 00:22:21.250 has turned into being another training hub for 00:22:21.250 --> 00:22:24.029 the U .S. military, for the pilots of drones, 00:22:24.250 --> 00:22:27.910 as well as Creech Drone Base. Outside Las Vegas, 00:22:27.910 --> 00:22:30.609 yeah. Outside Las Vegas, there is an opportunity 00:22:30.609 --> 00:22:34.029 for people to come out and help us challenge. 00:22:34.730 --> 00:22:37.970 the U .S. assassin drone program. So I want to 00:22:37.970 --> 00:22:41.269 talk now, Anne, about Israel, Palestine, West 00:22:41.269 --> 00:22:44.849 Bank, and Gaza. So tell me about your trips and 00:22:44.849 --> 00:22:47.009 your thoughts about that, and then we'll talk 00:22:47.009 --> 00:22:50.769 about the flotilla, okay? Well, I first went 00:22:50.769 --> 00:22:58.150 to Gaza in 2009. Was that on our trip? No, that 00:22:58.150 --> 00:23:02.740 was early, in January of 2009. Gaza Freedom March 00:23:02.740 --> 00:23:06.119 was in December of 2009. And the 10 months, 12 00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:09.359 months between those two, I went back to Gaza 00:23:09.359 --> 00:23:12.720 five different times, taking groups of people 00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:15.940 with Code Pink Women for Peace. And we brought 00:23:15.940 --> 00:23:20.680 groups of 50 people in to see the level of destruction 00:23:20.680 --> 00:23:23.200 that the Israelis had caused with their Operation 00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:26.680 Cast Lead that happened in December of 2008 and 00:23:26.680 --> 00:23:31.099 January of 2009. And it was just... The reason 00:23:31.099 --> 00:23:33.839 that Medea Benjamin and I went in the very beginning 00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:37.579 was that we saw the level of destruction. We 00:23:37.579 --> 00:23:43.319 were actually at Fort Benning going to the School 00:23:43.319 --> 00:23:45.859 of the Americas watch when the Israelis were 00:23:45.859 --> 00:23:48.660 attacking Gaza. And we watched on TV and saw 00:23:48.660 --> 00:23:51.460 this destruction. It was like, holy smoke, this 00:23:51.460 --> 00:23:54.920 is unbelievable. It's like World War II. So we 00:23:54.920 --> 00:23:58.180 went, but we weren't the first internationals 00:23:58.180 --> 00:24:00.539 to get in there. Kathy Kelly. actually went the 00:24:00.539 --> 00:24:03.799 week before we did. And then all of us were trying 00:24:03.799 --> 00:24:06.059 to get as many pictures, talk to as many people, 00:24:06.099 --> 00:24:10.259 and come back to rally people in the United States 00:24:10.259 --> 00:24:13.180 and other places to go to Gaza, see with your 00:24:13.180 --> 00:24:16.720 own eyes, and then go after the Israeli government 00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:20.579 for what they're doing to Gaza. So five trips 00:24:20.579 --> 00:24:24.880 later, then we decided, well, let's bring lots 00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:29.240 of people to Cairo. and then arranged for them 00:24:29.240 --> 00:24:33.960 to go into Gaza for only 24 hours as a commemoration 00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:38.759 for that year that the Israelis had bombed Gaza. 00:24:39.079 --> 00:24:41.740 But we were foiled by the Egyptian government, 00:24:41.819 --> 00:24:44.819 who did not let anyone but actually one busload 00:24:44.819 --> 00:24:48.400 of people go into Gaza. So the rest of the 1 00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:53.269 ,500 people... were in Cairo. And I think at 00:24:53.269 --> 00:24:55.930 the end of the week, the Egyptians wish they'd 00:24:55.930 --> 00:25:00.150 let all of us go into Gaza because people were 00:25:00.150 --> 00:25:02.930 having hunger strikes all over Cairo. They were 00:25:02.930 --> 00:25:06.910 climbing the pyramids with big Palestine flags. 00:25:07.349 --> 00:25:11.309 They were at every one of the embassies with 00:25:11.309 --> 00:25:14.210 the banner saying, stop killing in Gaza, stop 00:25:14.210 --> 00:25:18.069 your complicity. So it really was a momentous 00:25:18.069 --> 00:25:21.009 time. And it was kind of one and a half years 00:25:21.009 --> 00:25:23.869 before the Arab Spring hit. And Tahrir Square 00:25:23.869 --> 00:25:26.650 became well known throughout the world for the 00:25:26.650 --> 00:25:32.250 square of attempting to have freedom in Egypt. 00:25:32.369 --> 00:25:35.390 But it didn't quite work out that way. And now 00:25:35.390 --> 00:25:39.609 they're under another severe dictatorship. I 00:25:39.609 --> 00:25:42.390 was on that trip with Anne to the listeners. 00:25:43.319 --> 00:25:45.779 It's hard to describe. There were 4 ,500 people 00:25:45.779 --> 00:25:47.619 from around the world. We're all going to go 00:25:47.619 --> 00:25:51.059 into Gaza. This was a long trip, and then Mubarak 00:25:51.059 --> 00:25:53.859 prevented it. And then I was one of the 50. Mubarak 00:25:53.859 --> 00:25:56.680 announced that I and a few others, like David 00:25:56.680 --> 00:25:59.279 Hartz, would be allowed into Gaza. But the last 00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:02.359 minute, about half of us, Anne, decided not to 00:26:02.359 --> 00:26:04.900 because we were getting direct messages from 00:26:04.900 --> 00:26:07.480 Gaza, don't come. You've got to be in solidarity 00:26:07.480 --> 00:26:10.460 with everybody. And some of our friends, Anne, 00:26:11.110 --> 00:26:14.009 violated that request and went ahead. And there 00:26:14.009 --> 00:26:17.670 was just 25 or 30. I kind of still wonder today 00:26:17.670 --> 00:26:19.150 whether I should have done that because I've 00:26:19.150 --> 00:26:22.269 never been allowed in Gaza. Anyway, incredible 00:26:22.269 --> 00:26:25.210 time. And then you, was it then that you started 00:26:25.210 --> 00:26:28.109 the flotillas or you kept going to Palestine 00:26:28.109 --> 00:26:31.690 after that? Well, the actual, the first groups 00:26:31.690 --> 00:26:34.869 that actually tried to send boats into Gaza and 00:26:34.869 --> 00:26:37.049 were actually the only ones who've ever been 00:26:37.049 --> 00:26:40.390 successful started in 2008. And it was called 00:26:40.390 --> 00:26:44.140 the Free Gaza Movement. And they've sailed five 00:26:44.140 --> 00:26:49.279 small little boats over a two -year period into 00:26:49.279 --> 00:26:52.559 Gaza. And for whatever reason, the Israelis let 00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:59.140 them in. And then after Kasled, it was like, 00:26:59.220 --> 00:27:02.160 well, we've got to buck this thing up. We've 00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:04.559 got to get some more boats. So that was when 00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:06.920 the Marvi Marmara, the large, large ship from 00:27:06.920 --> 00:27:11.880 Turkey, plus seven other ships. In 2010, I had 00:27:11.880 --> 00:27:15.039 a real flotilla, a large number of boats going 00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:17.480 at the same time toward Gaza. And that's when 00:27:17.480 --> 00:27:21.279 the Israeli commandos came down on the Marvi 00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:24.099 Marmara, killed people, 10 people on the boat, 00:27:24.200 --> 00:27:28.859 wounded 50. I had left that boat 10 hours before 00:27:28.859 --> 00:27:32.299 the attack happened and went on to a smaller 00:27:32.299 --> 00:27:35.779 boat called Challenger 1. The Israelis... It 00:27:35.779 --> 00:27:39.039 came onto all seven of the boats, beat people 00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:41.400 up, but it was on the Marvy Marmor that they 00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:44.299 killed people. So that was the beginning of the 00:27:44.299 --> 00:27:48.440 flotillas. And then in 2011, we had 10 ships 00:27:48.440 --> 00:27:51.259 that were ready to sail from Greece, and then 00:27:51.259 --> 00:27:53.640 the Israeli government paid off the Greek government 00:27:53.640 --> 00:27:57.059 to keep our boats in Greece through administrative 00:27:57.059 --> 00:27:59.960 things, although our U .S. boat tried to escape 00:27:59.960 --> 00:28:02.519 one day, and we were stopped about three miles 00:28:02.519 --> 00:28:07.940 outside the port of Piraeus. with a Greek Coast 00:28:07.940 --> 00:28:10.200 Guard boat with commandos on it that looked a 00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:13.380 lot like the Israeli commandos. And we were stopped, 00:28:13.480 --> 00:28:16.759 but we did make a break for it. But from there, 00:28:16.779 --> 00:28:20.119 in the successive years, we've now sailed over 00:28:20.119 --> 00:28:27.519 35, well, 35 ships until 2025. And then in 2025, 00:28:27.700 --> 00:28:31.259 we sailed the Madeline ship, which had Greta 00:28:31.259 --> 00:28:33.819 Thunberg on it, only 12 people on that boat. 00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:37.119 then the gondola that had 22 people on it, and 00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:41.940 then here came the friends who had been on various 00:28:41.940 --> 00:28:45.200 ones of our boats, helped organize what's called 00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:48.380 the Global Samud Flotilla, and they were able 00:28:48.380 --> 00:28:51.079 to get donations to the extent that they had 00:28:51.079 --> 00:28:55.619 42 boats that set sail from Barcelona, they went 00:28:55.619 --> 00:28:59.089 through Tunis. then to Sicily, then off Crete, 00:28:59.150 --> 00:29:02.450 and then finally headed toward Gaza in a 30 -day 00:29:02.450 --> 00:29:08.410 sail with over 600 people. Then we had another 00:29:08.410 --> 00:29:10.549 boat called the Conscience, which had earlier 00:29:10.549 --> 00:29:14.170 been bombed in Malta when we were about ready 00:29:14.170 --> 00:29:17.009 to put 50 people on board that boat. It got bombed 00:29:17.009 --> 00:29:19.690 the night before, and I mean really bombed. The 00:29:19.690 --> 00:29:23.250 whole bow of the boat was just... blown up. And 00:29:23.250 --> 00:29:26.089 then we had it taken back to Turkey and had it 00:29:26.089 --> 00:29:30.130 repaired. And we sailed the conscience with 92 00:29:30.130 --> 00:29:34.170 people on board and then seven other small sailboats 00:29:34.170 --> 00:29:37.390 that had another 40 or so people. This was last 00:29:37.390 --> 00:29:42.289 year, 2025? This was in 2025. During the killing? 00:29:42.329 --> 00:29:44.430 The genocide. It was all during that time. And 00:29:44.430 --> 00:29:48.509 you got materials into Gaza? Nope. None of the 00:29:48.509 --> 00:29:53.170 boats have gotten in. And despite the Israelis 00:29:53.170 --> 00:29:56.170 always saying, oh, if you'll just kind of give 00:29:56.170 --> 00:29:59.170 up, we'll make sure whatever it is that you're 00:29:59.170 --> 00:30:01.049 carrying, whether it's medical supplies, whether 00:30:01.049 --> 00:30:03.710 it's construction materials, we'll make sure 00:30:03.710 --> 00:30:05.589 they get in. Well, of course, that will never 00:30:05.589 --> 00:30:09.720 happen. Everybody last year. They would be arrested, 00:30:09.859 --> 00:30:13.279 so the Israelis would come and storm the boats 00:30:13.279 --> 00:30:15.920 and take everybody away to jail. They stormed 00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:18.460 all the boats and took them to Israeli prison 00:30:18.460 --> 00:30:23.740 and treated them not as bad, but in the same 00:30:23.740 --> 00:30:26.079 manner that they treat Palestinians, which is 00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:28.779 pretty brutal. And we had people that were beaten 00:30:28.779 --> 00:30:32.240 up, that were sexually assaulted, that were... 00:30:32.460 --> 00:30:34.799 that went on hunger strikes and then were beaten 00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:37.059 up for being on a hunger strike. Many of them 00:30:37.059 --> 00:30:39.799 came back with intestinal problems because of 00:30:39.799 --> 00:30:42.079 the dirty water, the bad food, which is all, 00:30:42.119 --> 00:30:46.220 and it's nothing more. I mean, the Palestinians 00:30:46.220 --> 00:30:50.519 get that all the time, and they're in there for 00:30:50.519 --> 00:30:54.559 months, if not years at a time. So our folks 00:30:54.559 --> 00:30:58.259 got a little taste of what the Palestinians get 00:30:58.259 --> 00:31:03.609 every single day. Wow. I'm not changing the subject. 00:31:03.670 --> 00:31:06.049 You can reflect however you want. But I don't 00:31:06.049 --> 00:31:09.829 know that people realize that in the year 2025, 00:31:10.410 --> 00:31:14.569 last year, the Trump administration, in my counting, 00:31:14.789 --> 00:31:19.089 bombed nine places. And I'll list them. Syria, 00:31:19.309 --> 00:31:23.589 Venezuela, Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Somalia, Nigeria. 00:31:23.990 --> 00:31:27.650 But see, I include Gaza, Palestine, and I include 00:31:27.650 --> 00:31:29.809 Sudan because that war has been going on forever. 00:31:29.930 --> 00:31:34.890 We sell weapons to all sides. Tell me your thoughts 00:31:34.890 --> 00:31:40.630 or activities or suggestions about how we can 00:31:40.630 --> 00:31:43.869 oppose these wars and what you've been doing 00:31:43.869 --> 00:31:46.230 about them. I mean, because there's so many countries 00:31:46.230 --> 00:31:49.460 and it's going to continue. Well, certainly we 00:31:49.460 --> 00:31:52.160 have to, as you have just mentioned, all these 00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:54.160 countries. And here we have a president that 00:31:54.160 --> 00:31:56.220 says he's the peace president. He wants the Nobel 00:31:56.220 --> 00:31:59.740 Peace Prize. And he's bombing all these countries. 00:32:00.039 --> 00:32:02.920 More than any year in U .S. history. We never 00:32:02.920 --> 00:32:06.480 had nine countries bombed in U .S. history. And 00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:09.119 then he just renamed the U .S. Institute for 00:32:09.119 --> 00:32:12.079 Peace in Washington, D .C., which actually was 00:32:12.079 --> 00:32:16.650 not much of an institute for peace. carried on 00:32:16.650 --> 00:32:19.369 a lot of whatever administration was in power. 00:32:19.549 --> 00:32:22.230 They kind of parroted what that administration 00:32:22.230 --> 00:32:25.069 had. But Trump has now named the U .S. Peace 00:32:25.069 --> 00:32:27.970 Institute the Donald J. Trump Peace Institute. 00:32:29.690 --> 00:32:32.970 So using all of these things out on the streets, 00:32:33.049 --> 00:32:35.670 making sure you write your congressmen and women 00:32:35.670 --> 00:32:39.150 every day before breakfast with one more thing 00:32:39.150 --> 00:32:41.609 that they can add to the list of things they 00:32:41.609 --> 00:32:44.490 ought to be contacting the White House about. 00:32:45.079 --> 00:32:50.480 and to mobilize your own community to stand up 00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:57.339 to say we strongly oppose what's going on. And 00:32:57.339 --> 00:32:59.279 then we've got to figure out how to make this 00:32:59.279 --> 00:33:03.579 opposition really hurt in terms of nonviolent 00:33:03.579 --> 00:33:06.740 hurting. hurt the administration to make them 00:33:06.740 --> 00:33:11.019 stop this stuff. Can you say a word about, on 00:33:11.019 --> 00:33:14.500 the top of all of that, nuclear weapons and your 00:33:14.500 --> 00:33:18.460 efforts to stop abolished nuclear weapons? Oh, 00:33:18.599 --> 00:33:23.240 my God. And having the fingertip of a guy that 00:33:23.240 --> 00:33:27.960 is the war president, again, another one of them. 00:33:30.980 --> 00:33:33.720 continuing what the Biden administration had 00:33:33.720 --> 00:33:35.759 done. Well, I'm starting with the Obama administration, 00:33:36.039 --> 00:33:39.000 this renovation of all of our nuclear weapons 00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:43.779 that has caused at least three new industrial 00:33:43.779 --> 00:33:48.279 plants to be built to modernize our nuclear weapons, 00:33:48.380 --> 00:33:52.480 of which one or two of them can cause a nuclear 00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:55.299 war that will eliminate us from the face of the 00:33:55.299 --> 00:34:01.220 earth. So I, along with tons and tons and tons 00:34:01.220 --> 00:34:04.900 of people, do what we can to try to bring the 00:34:04.900 --> 00:34:07.579 information to the American public. And in fact, 00:34:07.579 --> 00:34:10.280 there have been some new books that have come 00:34:10.280 --> 00:34:16.659 out that are really scary. The Nuclear War, Ann 00:34:16.659 --> 00:34:19.760 Jacobson, I think is her name. That's a wild 00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:23.389 one. It's at the House of Dynamite, which is 00:34:23.389 --> 00:34:27.070 on Netflix, actually done by a person that's 00:34:27.070 --> 00:34:30.510 very pro -war. She's done a lot of administration, 00:34:30.869 --> 00:34:34.510 various administrations, plotting of the U .S. 00:34:34.510 --> 00:34:37.550 military. But the House of Dynamite does give 00:34:37.550 --> 00:34:39.610 you a pretty good view of what would happen if 00:34:39.610 --> 00:34:42.570 we start having nuclear exchanges. This last 00:34:42.570 --> 00:34:45.369 year, I was invited to go to Hiroshima and Nagasaki 00:34:45.369 --> 00:34:48.860 as a part of the international conferences. on 00:34:48.860 --> 00:34:51.139 the abolition of nuclear weapons and speaking 00:34:51.139 --> 00:34:54.420 at the very large conferences that they have 00:34:54.420 --> 00:34:58.079 in both of those Japanese cities. I think we 00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:03.599 in the United States kind of, well, we definitely 00:35:03.599 --> 00:35:09.599 are not aware of how much that the nuclear or 00:35:09.599 --> 00:35:12.480 the atomic explosions in both Hiroshima and Nagasaki. 00:35:13.179 --> 00:35:15.219 are still part of the living memories of the 00:35:15.219 --> 00:35:18.119 people of Japan. And at each one of the conferences 00:35:18.119 --> 00:35:20.679 I went to, there were thousands and thousands 00:35:20.679 --> 00:35:23.000 of people that were attending the various sessions 00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:30.320 of it. We did have U .S. prisoners of war that 00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:33.079 were in Japan that were killed by our own atomic 00:35:33.079 --> 00:35:36.960 weapons. We do have our own U .S. military folks 00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:39.940 who have been injured by the explosions, the 00:35:39.940 --> 00:35:42.260 testing that we did out in the Marshall Islands. 00:35:42.989 --> 00:35:47.510 other places, but bringing home to the U .S. 00:35:47.530 --> 00:35:52.090 public that we have in our arsenals, as do the 00:35:52.090 --> 00:35:57.090 Russians, the ability to blow this whole planet 00:35:57.090 --> 00:36:00.849 off out of the universe. I mean, it's just crazy 00:36:00.849 --> 00:36:04.349 how much stuff, how much nuclear power we have 00:36:04.349 --> 00:36:09.050 that if any, really, if any of the nuclear powers 00:36:09.050 --> 00:36:13.550 start. one or two missiles, then it's all over 00:36:13.550 --> 00:36:16.409 for all of us because nobody will know who's 00:36:16.409 --> 00:36:19.409 going to be going after whom next. And so I think 00:36:19.409 --> 00:36:22.510 they're just going to blow us up. And we don't 00:36:22.510 --> 00:36:25.570 want that. So what suggestions do you have for 00:36:25.570 --> 00:36:30.110 us as ordinary peacemakers? And you've said a 00:36:30.110 --> 00:36:32.949 lot we can do already, but any a few thoughts, 00:36:33.070 --> 00:36:38.969 but also your suggestions about how we can sustain 00:36:38.969 --> 00:36:41.510 ourselves. I think we need peacemakers who just 00:36:41.510 --> 00:36:44.389 don't give up. And you've been a model for me. 00:36:44.409 --> 00:36:47.289 You're just relentless and persistent. And that's 00:36:47.289 --> 00:36:51.449 really critical to peacemaking and nonviolence 00:36:51.449 --> 00:36:54.289 and what is needed now. That is to say people 00:36:54.289 --> 00:36:56.590 working for the abolition of war who are in it 00:36:56.590 --> 00:36:59.550 for the long haul. But how do you sustain? What's 00:36:59.550 --> 00:37:02.409 your advice about sustaining yourself? Well, 00:37:02.449 --> 00:37:06.610 I think for sustaining all of us. We have to 00:37:06.610 --> 00:37:10.289 make sure that we're around people who share 00:37:10.289 --> 00:37:14.250 the same views, that are so concerned about the 00:37:14.250 --> 00:37:17.690 future of humanity. We need people that we can 00:37:17.690 --> 00:37:20.789 talk to, to develop ideas, to see what we can 00:37:20.789 --> 00:37:23.469 do in our local communities. Where are the pressure 00:37:23.469 --> 00:37:26.269 points in our communities? Is it the churches? 00:37:26.329 --> 00:37:29.869 Do we need to talk more with the various denominations? 00:37:30.050 --> 00:37:33.150 Is it our local or state -level governments where 00:37:33.150 --> 00:37:36.210 we need to have at least a resolution saying 00:37:36.210 --> 00:37:42.909 no nuclear weapons? Is it having campaigns for 00:37:42.909 --> 00:37:48.449 writing specific members of Congress? Is it having 00:37:48.449 --> 00:37:53.190 a peace? demonstration or a peace walk. You know, 00:37:53.210 --> 00:37:57.389 right now we have, what is it, 20 Buddhist monks 00:37:57.389 --> 00:38:01.110 that are walking from Texas to Washington, D 00:38:01.110 --> 00:38:05.389 .C. They don't have signs. They don't have megaphones. 00:38:05.389 --> 00:38:10.989 They're just walking and seeing the YouTubes 00:38:10.989 --> 00:38:15.510 along their course. of the thousands, tens of 00:38:15.510 --> 00:38:18.769 thousands of average Americans who have taken 00:38:18.769 --> 00:38:23.150 the time to go out and observe, to be there in 00:38:23.150 --> 00:38:26.590 silence with these silent monks as they walk 00:38:26.590 --> 00:38:30.630 along. It's just amazing that that peace march 00:38:30.630 --> 00:38:36.150 is causing such a reaction in rural communities 00:38:36.150 --> 00:38:38.869 as they're walking through the southeast part 00:38:38.869 --> 00:38:42.690 of South Carolina, the northern part of Georgia. 00:38:43.230 --> 00:38:47.510 Hundreds of people going out on these rural roads 00:38:47.510 --> 00:38:50.690 that the monks are walking along. You know, it's 00:38:50.690 --> 00:38:54.349 incredible the things that we can do. You know, 00:38:54.369 --> 00:38:57.110 Veterans for Peace had a march for Gaza that 00:38:57.110 --> 00:39:00.070 went all the way from Maine to Washington, D 00:39:00.070 --> 00:39:03.989 .C. in 2024. And the same thing happened. There 00:39:03.989 --> 00:39:06.090 were people all along the way that came out. 00:39:06.230 --> 00:39:10.300 So I never underestimate trying to get. five 00:39:10.300 --> 00:39:14.199 people, 10 people, 20 people together to do something 00:39:14.199 --> 00:39:19.199 that will galvanize the rest of your community. 00:39:19.480 --> 00:39:22.900 Well, our time is up, Anne. And so my last question 00:39:22.900 --> 00:39:25.199 would be, besides that, what you just said, do 00:39:25.199 --> 00:39:27.860 you have any other closing words of encouragement 00:39:27.860 --> 00:39:31.179 for our listeners about carrying on this great 00:39:31.179 --> 00:39:34.039 mission of justice and disarmament and nonviolence? 00:39:34.849 --> 00:39:37.829 Well, I think the last message is it's our own 00:39:37.829 --> 00:39:41.150 conscience that we have to watch out for. And 00:39:41.150 --> 00:39:45.030 I think we all want to be able at the end of 00:39:45.030 --> 00:39:48.010 the day to say, I've done what I could on this 00:39:48.010 --> 00:39:51.650 particular day in some way. to try to stop the 00:39:51.650 --> 00:39:53.750 violence in our world. And whether it's violence 00:39:53.750 --> 00:39:56.710 that's happening with ice raids in our local 00:39:56.710 --> 00:39:59.449 communities, whether it's the violence our national 00:39:59.449 --> 00:40:01.969 government is wrecking on other people, that 00:40:01.969 --> 00:40:04.849 we can do something every single day. It may 00:40:04.849 --> 00:40:07.650 not be the most stellar thing. It may not be 00:40:07.650 --> 00:40:12.130 the thing that stops whatever it is. But we have 00:40:12.130 --> 00:40:15.230 to be consistent and we have to keep moving with 00:40:15.230 --> 00:40:18.409 this. So it's for our own good, our own. our 00:40:18.409 --> 00:40:20.849 own psyche and our own mental health that we 00:40:20.849 --> 00:40:24.250 do this, as well as for trying to stop these 00:40:24.250 --> 00:40:27.170 issues that are dangerous to our world. Well, 00:40:27.250 --> 00:40:30.710 thank you, Anne. Thank you so much for all you 00:40:30.710 --> 00:40:34.750 do and for speaking with me today. And friends, 00:40:34.869 --> 00:40:36.949 I invite you to check out Anne Wright's website. 00:40:37.090 --> 00:40:41.349 Again, it's VoicesForConscience .com. And thank 00:40:41.349 --> 00:40:43.690 you, friends, for listening to the Nonviolent 00:40:43.690 --> 00:40:48.030 Jesus podcast. And I hope you'll check out other 00:40:48.030 --> 00:40:51.090 podcasts and programs at BeatitudeCenter .org. 00:40:51.650 --> 00:40:54.429 Maybe make a donation to help support this free 00:40:54.429 --> 00:40:58.460 work. Also, please sign up to receive our free 00:40:58.460 --> 00:41:01.929 e -blast with news about... upcoming episodes 00:41:01.929 --> 00:41:05.789 of the podcast and upcoming Zoom programs, and 00:41:05.789 --> 00:41:08.309 feel free to leave some positive feedback on 00:41:08.309 --> 00:41:11.130 the platform you use. But most of all, I ask 00:41:11.130 --> 00:41:13.650 everybody to tell your friends and colleagues 00:41:13.650 --> 00:41:16.510 about the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. Try to mention 00:41:16.510 --> 00:41:18.869 it to five or ten people a week so they can go 00:41:18.869 --> 00:41:22.369 viral. May the God of peace bless you all. Keep 00:41:22.369 --> 00:41:25.289 on following the Nonviolent Jesus. See you next 00:41:25.289 --> 00:41:25.630 time.