WEBVTT 00:00:15.150 --> 00:00:18.309 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:18.309 --> 00:00:20.530 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:20.530 --> 00:00:23.670 with my friend Ched Myers. This is a project 00:00:23.670 --> 00:00:27.690 of BeatitudeCenter .org, where you can find many 00:00:27.690 --> 00:00:30.769 other podcasts and regular Zoom programs on the 00:00:30.769 --> 00:00:33.990 nonviolence of Jesus and practicing nonviolence 00:00:33.990 --> 00:00:36.689 and working for a more just, more nonviolent 00:00:36.689 --> 00:00:39.710 world. So let's begin, as usual, with a little 00:00:39.710 --> 00:00:42.649 prayer. So I just invite you, wherever you are, 00:00:42.710 --> 00:00:46.369 just to take a deep breath. and to relax and 00:00:46.369 --> 00:00:50.189 recenter yourself. And together, let's turn and 00:00:50.189 --> 00:00:53.030 enter into the presence of the God of peace who 00:00:53.030 --> 00:00:56.729 loves you personally and infinitely and everyone 00:00:56.729 --> 00:00:59.909 everywhere. And we welcome the risen nonviolent 00:00:59.909 --> 00:01:03.189 Jesus here with us. Just take a moment to ask 00:01:03.189 --> 00:01:06.510 for whatever grace you need to follow the nonviolent 00:01:06.510 --> 00:01:14.340 Jesus more faithfully and do God's will. God 00:01:14.340 --> 00:01:16.859 of peace, thank you for all the blessings of 00:01:16.859 --> 00:01:21.060 life, love, and peace that you give us. Be with 00:01:21.060 --> 00:01:24.980 us now as we reflect together on the life of 00:01:24.980 --> 00:01:28.739 the nonviolent Jesus in the Gospel of Luke, and 00:01:28.739 --> 00:01:33.400 bless us, inspire us, disarm us, strengthen us, 00:01:33.480 --> 00:01:36.519 and send us out. that we might do your will and 00:01:36.519 --> 00:01:39.579 do our part to help end poverty, racism, greed, 00:01:39.879 --> 00:01:43.640 injustice, war, nuclear weapons, and environmental 00:01:43.640 --> 00:01:47.700 destruction. That we might be your beatitude 00:01:47.700 --> 00:01:51.000 people, your holy peacemakers, and welcome your 00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:54.299 reign of universal love, nonviolence, and peace 00:01:54.299 --> 00:01:59.019 on earth. In Jesus' name, amen. Well, it's a 00:01:59.019 --> 00:02:02.939 great blessing to welcome Ched Myers here today 00:02:02.939 --> 00:02:06.459 to the podcast. to talk about his great new book 00:02:06.459 --> 00:02:10.259 on the Gospel of Luke. Ched has published over 00:02:10.259 --> 00:02:16.039 100 articles and 8 books, including his earth 00:02:16.039 --> 00:02:19.719 -changing, shattering, challenging masterpiece, 00:02:20.439 --> 00:02:22.979 The Binding the Strong Man, a political reading 00:02:22.979 --> 00:02:26.300 of Mark's story of Jesus, which came out in 1988, 00:02:26.699 --> 00:02:30.050 which was such a game -changer for me. Don't 00:02:30.050 --> 00:02:32.689 listen to this, Chet. But I think Chet is the 00:02:32.689 --> 00:02:35.090 greatest living scripture scholar in the world, 00:02:35.110 --> 00:02:38.139 and that's the greatest. book on Scripture ever 00:02:38.139 --> 00:02:40.539 written, and it certainly changed my life and 00:02:40.539 --> 00:02:43.780 Daniel Berrigan's and many of our friends. An 00:02:43.780 --> 00:02:45.979 activist and theologian, Chet and his partner, 00:02:46.159 --> 00:02:49.099 Elaine Enns, are ecumenical Mennonites based 00:02:49.099 --> 00:02:52.319 in Southern California, where they lead Bartimaeus 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:55.080 Cooperative Ministries. He has taught around 00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:58.439 North America and brings a fresh scholarly political 00:02:58.439 --> 00:03:01.379 reading to the Gospels. And so he's going to 00:03:01.379 --> 00:03:04.280 be talking on his new book on Luke. So, Chet 00:03:04.280 --> 00:03:06.419 Myers, welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. 00:03:07.460 --> 00:03:10.699 Thanks, Padre. It's an honor to be included in 00:03:10.699 --> 00:03:13.919 the podcast and to talk about this book on the 00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:16.460 first anniversary of its publication by Fortress 00:03:16.460 --> 00:03:18.879 Press. Great, great. It's pretty fun. Well, a 00:03:18.879 --> 00:03:21.300 big congratulations on the book, which is called 00:03:21.300 --> 00:03:26.300 Healing Affluenza and Resisting Plutocracy, Luke's 00:03:26.300 --> 00:03:29.780 Jesus and Sabbath Economics, which I encourage 00:03:29.780 --> 00:03:32.639 everyone to get. It's out from Fortress Press. 00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:34.419 And if you haven't got Binding the Strongman, 00:03:34.539 --> 00:03:37.919 get that book, too. Before we get into the book 00:03:37.919 --> 00:03:40.300 itself, Chet, why don't you just tell us a little 00:03:40.300 --> 00:03:43.080 bit about your journey into the Gospels, because 00:03:43.080 --> 00:03:47.460 you have such a passionate, lifelong study for 00:03:47.460 --> 00:03:50.500 them, and you've brought everything together, 00:03:50.580 --> 00:03:54.120 including literary analysis and a political reading 00:03:54.120 --> 00:03:57.039 of the text from the perspective of the struggle 00:03:57.039 --> 00:03:59.560 for justice and discernment. How did that happen, 00:03:59.639 --> 00:04:05.389 Chet? Well, a little bit of personal background. 00:04:05.490 --> 00:04:08.849 I grew up in middle class suburban Los Angeles. 00:04:09.289 --> 00:04:12.830 My dad was a highly assimilated half Chicano 00:04:12.830 --> 00:04:16.990 and lapsed Catholic. My mom, a highly WASP and 00:04:16.990 --> 00:04:20.629 lapsed Protestant. So church wasn't a thing in 00:04:20.629 --> 00:04:24.589 our household. But the Vietnam War ran right 00:04:24.589 --> 00:04:29.949 through our home. And my older brother was deployed 00:04:29.949 --> 00:04:33.449 there in 1969 while I was marching against the 00:04:33.449 --> 00:04:37.170 war at age 14, neither of which made my two -time 00:04:37.170 --> 00:04:41.529 veteran father happy. An existentially difficult 00:04:41.529 --> 00:04:45.870 high school year abroad in Scandinavia opened 00:04:45.870 --> 00:04:48.670 my rather depressed spirit to the gospel for 00:04:48.670 --> 00:04:52.750 the first time, and I encountered it. Then I 00:04:52.750 --> 00:04:55.370 came home and had to find a church, and the only 00:04:55.370 --> 00:04:59.819 church I could find was a... Jesus -freak church. 00:05:00.800 --> 00:05:04.379 But from what I was reading, as someone who'd 00:05:04.379 --> 00:05:07.459 never read the Bible before, about loaves and 00:05:07.459 --> 00:05:09.459 fishes, for example, the Bible was all about 00:05:09.459 --> 00:05:13.180 justice, but that orientation found no hospitality 00:05:13.180 --> 00:05:18.319 in the conservative Bible churches. So I doubt 00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:22.480 my journey of faith would have continued had 00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:27.339 I not found radical Christians while at Cal Berkeley. 00:05:28.060 --> 00:05:32.100 In 1976, I found the Catholic Worker Movement, 00:05:32.399 --> 00:05:36.839 our mutual friend, Ladan Sheets, John Moses Ladan, 00:05:37.180 --> 00:05:40.740 a blessed memory. He was a disciple of the Radical 00:05:40.740 --> 00:05:44.779 Baptist Clarence Jordan. And I met Daniel Berrigan 00:05:44.779 --> 00:05:48.699 for the first time on his tour of reading America 00:05:48.699 --> 00:05:52.560 through the Book of Revelation during the Bicentennial 00:05:52.560 --> 00:05:56.819 year. By the end of that year, I was hitchhiking 00:05:56.819 --> 00:05:59.360 across the country at age 21 to spend the fall 00:05:59.360 --> 00:06:03.939 at Jonah House, which John knows well and has 00:06:03.939 --> 00:06:06.920 spoken a lot about, apprenticing with the great 00:06:06.920 --> 00:06:10.040 Philip Berrigan and Liz McAllister. So really 00:06:10.040 --> 00:06:13.019 from that point on, Padre, your journey and mine 00:06:13.019 --> 00:06:15.800 have so many parallels as we immersed ourselves 00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:20.420 in community and activism, struggling to integrate 00:06:20.420 --> 00:06:23.360 insights of seminary, sanctuary, and street. 00:06:24.160 --> 00:06:27.100 while walking the margins of our respective faith 00:06:27.100 --> 00:06:31.100 traditions. And for both you and I, I think it's 00:06:31.100 --> 00:06:33.860 fair to say Scripture all along the way has been 00:06:33.860 --> 00:06:36.959 both grounding and guide. That's great. Thank 00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:42.060 you for that, Jed. So in your new book, you read 00:06:42.060 --> 00:06:45.209 the Gospel of Luke through the lens of... I don't 00:06:45.209 --> 00:06:47.509 know if you invented this phrase, Sabbath economics. 00:06:47.790 --> 00:06:50.110 And you've been teaching that for decades now. 00:06:50.470 --> 00:06:53.269 So before we get into the book, tell our listeners 00:06:53.269 --> 00:06:58.370 what you mean by Sabbath economics. Well, another 00:06:58.370 --> 00:07:00.810 mutual friend and mother in the faith, Marie 00:07:00.810 --> 00:07:04.949 Dennis, called me in 1998 amidst the growing 00:07:04.949 --> 00:07:08.310 Jubilee 2000 international debt equity movement. 00:07:08.389 --> 00:07:11.800 You remember that? And she asked if I would write 00:07:11.800 --> 00:07:15.300 a short summary of how and why the biblical tradition 00:07:15.300 --> 00:07:18.459 of jubilee debt release, land return, and liberation 00:07:18.459 --> 00:07:22.680 from bondage might guide our activism on behalf 00:07:22.680 --> 00:07:27.160 of the most highly indebted countries. So I published 00:07:27.160 --> 00:07:30.339 this little booklet through Church of the Savior 00:07:30.339 --> 00:07:32.860 called The Biblical Vision of Sabbath Economics, 00:07:33.040 --> 00:07:36.259 which tried to overview themes of economic justice 00:07:36.259 --> 00:07:40.819 in both testaments. And it turns out that this 00:07:40.819 --> 00:07:44.279 thread runs a through line rooted in what I call 00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:48.279 Israel's first catechism in the wilderness after 00:07:48.279 --> 00:07:51.860 having been freed from imperial Egypt. That's, 00:07:51.860 --> 00:07:55.579 of course, the story of the manna, which, as 00:07:55.579 --> 00:07:58.300 it happens, is not a Sunday school miracle story, 00:07:58.399 --> 00:08:03.259 but rather a concise set of instructions on how 00:08:03.259 --> 00:08:07.019 free Israel might resist the economics of oppression. 00:08:07.899 --> 00:08:11.519 that they'd taken the brunt of in Egypt. Those 00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:16.060 instructions were threefold. First, those who 00:08:16.060 --> 00:08:20.000 gather more of the divine gift of sustenance 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:25.160 must not take too much. And those who take little 00:08:25.160 --> 00:08:29.980 must be guaranteed to have enough. The second 00:08:29.980 --> 00:08:33.139 principle, the gifts of creation should not concentrate 00:08:33.139 --> 00:08:37.980 through being stored up. but rather should circulate 00:08:37.980 --> 00:08:42.559 to secure equity. And thirdly, once a week, all 00:08:42.559 --> 00:08:45.559 production and consumption should cease in order 00:08:45.559 --> 00:08:48.080 for the community to remember the first two principles, 00:08:48.340 --> 00:08:51.340 which is how the Sabbath as a communal practice 00:08:51.340 --> 00:08:56.000 is introduced in the Bible. Wow. Hence my term 00:08:56.000 --> 00:09:00.379 Sabbath economics. And this theme is further 00:09:00.379 --> 00:09:03.799 articulated through the rest of Torah, the prophets. 00:09:04.409 --> 00:09:07.809 and the Second Testament. I mean, even Paul the 00:09:07.809 --> 00:09:12.490 Apostle cites those Exodus 16 instructions in 00:09:12.490 --> 00:09:16.769 his challenge to the Corinthians to resist reproducing 00:09:16.769 --> 00:09:19.429 the economic disparities of the Roman Empire 00:09:19.429 --> 00:09:25.009 in their Jesus communities. So this primal catechism, 00:09:25.029 --> 00:09:28.690 as you and your listeners will recognize, cuts 00:09:28.690 --> 00:09:32.720 diametrically against the grain. of the three 00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:35.360 pillars of modern compulsive addictive capitalism. 00:09:35.799 --> 00:09:39.620 Its infinite tolerance for both wealth and poverty, 00:09:40.139 --> 00:09:43.460 its belief that accumulation is the key to security, 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:48.100 and its conviction that there are no limits to 00:09:48.100 --> 00:09:52.379 work or consumption, all of which has led to 00:09:52.379 --> 00:09:56.600 the twin crises today of socioeconomic disparity 00:09:56.600 --> 00:10:01.429 and ecological overshoot. This little booklet 00:10:01.429 --> 00:10:05.309 circulated widely for 25 years as a kind of a 00:10:05.309 --> 00:10:08.210 thumbnail sketch. But in light of the intensification 00:10:08.210 --> 00:10:12.049 of all matter of disparities and the increasing 00:10:12.049 --> 00:10:15.649 hegemony of the billionaire class under Trump 00:10:15.649 --> 00:10:18.730 in his first administration, it became clear 00:10:18.730 --> 00:10:20.710 to me that it was time to take a deeper dive 00:10:20.710 --> 00:10:25.049 into the Sabbath economics vision of Jesus. This 00:10:25.049 --> 00:10:28.529 book. Great. So again, friends, the listeners, 00:10:28.590 --> 00:10:31.549 I really encourage you to get Ched's new book, 00:10:31.730 --> 00:10:35.830 Healing Affluenza and Resisting Plutocracy, and 00:10:35.830 --> 00:10:40.370 his old book on Mark called Binding the Strongman. 00:10:40.809 --> 00:10:44.769 Both books are packed with powerful insights 00:10:44.769 --> 00:10:50.309 and books, you know, that I've been reading. 00:10:50.879 --> 00:10:53.740 for decades. And they, as I said, they changed 00:10:53.740 --> 00:10:55.740 Dan and Phil Berrigan's life and my life and 00:10:55.740 --> 00:10:58.919 many of our friends. This is way too much to 00:10:58.919 --> 00:11:02.480 talk about in a short podcast. So even in these 00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:04.580 questions, wondering even where to begin with 00:11:04.580 --> 00:11:08.679 this great book, what I decided was I would pick 00:11:08.679 --> 00:11:11.620 a couple of the key passages that Ched talks 00:11:11.620 --> 00:11:15.360 about and talk about them and get Ched to tell 00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:18.960 us, to show you Ched unpacking some of the gospel. 00:11:19.679 --> 00:11:22.740 But before we do that, let me ask you, Chet, 00:11:22.899 --> 00:11:26.960 just briefly, if it's possible, a few main themes 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:30.519 and theses that you were trying to present to 00:11:30.519 --> 00:11:34.360 us in your new major study of Luke. Yeah, that's 00:11:34.360 --> 00:11:38.840 always a fair question. I have a cartoon up on 00:11:38.840 --> 00:11:43.100 my desk that I look at every day of an interviewer 00:11:43.100 --> 00:11:46.019 interviewing a professorial type with a huge 00:11:46.019 --> 00:11:51.429 one -foot thick tome on his lap. And the interviewer 00:11:51.429 --> 00:11:54.429 says, so in a few words, professor, tell us what 00:11:54.429 --> 00:11:57.029 this book is about. And that's always a reminder 00:11:57.029 --> 00:12:00.950 to me that long form is one thing, but it's good 00:12:00.950 --> 00:12:05.909 to be concise. So the title, Healing Affluenza 00:12:05.909 --> 00:12:09.450 Resisting Plutocracy, thus we call the book HARP 00:12:09.450 --> 00:12:13.750 for short in -house here, it really tries to 00:12:13.750 --> 00:12:16.610 place the goal of this project front and center, 00:12:16.730 --> 00:12:20.850 recognizing the crisis we're facing. I proceed 00:12:20.850 --> 00:12:23.549 in the conviction that both personal and political 00:12:23.549 --> 00:12:28.370 toxic behavior are driven and sustained by dysfunctional 00:12:28.370 --> 00:12:31.529 cultural stories, something that's become, I 00:12:31.529 --> 00:12:35.070 think, an arguably acute under the MAGA regime, 00:12:35.309 --> 00:12:40.029 and that only deeper, wiser, older narratives 00:12:40.029 --> 00:12:43.450 can animate the hard work of personal and political 00:12:43.450 --> 00:12:48.970 change. But the problem for us... is that the 00:12:48.970 --> 00:12:51.970 teachings of Jesus concerning economics have 00:12:51.970 --> 00:12:56.350 long been disappeared or domesticated by churches 00:12:56.350 --> 00:12:59.850 riding shotgun with capitalist culture. So we 00:12:59.850 --> 00:13:02.649 have considerable restorative and reconstructive 00:13:02.649 --> 00:13:07.330 work to do. And Luke, long recognized but also 00:13:07.330 --> 00:13:10.649 long avoided as the gospel with the clearest 00:13:10.649 --> 00:13:13.649 critique of wealth and poverty, is the logical 00:13:13.649 --> 00:13:17.590 place to begin. The problem is Luke and Acts 00:13:17.590 --> 00:13:21.529 represents almost 30 % of the entire Second Testament. 00:13:21.690 --> 00:13:25.509 So frankly, no scholars these days try to tackle 00:13:25.509 --> 00:13:30.169 its whole corpus. So I took the approach of following 00:13:30.169 --> 00:13:34.190 the Sabbath economics thread through this third 00:13:34.190 --> 00:13:38.110 gospel, which turns out is more like its backbone. 00:13:38.690 --> 00:13:41.509 So the book is divided into two halves, which 00:13:41.509 --> 00:13:45.110 correspond with the two halves of Luke. The first 00:13:45.110 --> 00:13:48.529 overviews keystone proclamations of Sabbath economics, 00:13:48.669 --> 00:13:52.370 such as the Magnificat, or Jesus' temptation, 00:13:52.850 --> 00:13:56.370 or his inaugural Nazareth sermon, the Beatitudes, 00:13:56.690 --> 00:13:59.730 the anointing woman as a demonstration project 00:13:59.730 --> 00:14:02.950 in Luke 7, the disciples' prayer, and so on. 00:14:03.389 --> 00:14:08.250 The second half then traces six keystone stories 00:14:08.250 --> 00:14:14.460 in which Jesus talks to or about rich men. uncompromising 00:14:14.460 --> 00:14:18.379 encounters that form the spine of Luke's special 00:14:18.379 --> 00:14:22.299 section in chapters 12 to 19, which is material 00:14:22.299 --> 00:14:25.559 that is, for the most part, uniquely Lucan, only 00:14:25.559 --> 00:14:29.519 found in Luke, thus giving us direct insight 00:14:29.519 --> 00:14:35.840 into his core message, which in ancient evangel 00:14:35.840 --> 00:14:39.919 is, I would argue, something whose time has come 00:14:39.919 --> 00:14:44.789 again. Oh, wow, that's great. I'm just soaking 00:14:44.789 --> 00:14:53.110 it all in. So, you know, though, I've traveled 00:14:53.110 --> 00:14:55.350 all over the world, Chad, and I've been in 50 00:14:55.350 --> 00:14:58.529 nations, some of the poorest places on the planet, 00:14:58.549 --> 00:15:02.110 and things like, words like poverty, economic 00:15:02.110 --> 00:15:06.389 disparity, I fear even affluenza. barely describe 00:15:06.389 --> 00:15:09.850 the horrific systemic injustice that a small 00:15:09.850 --> 00:15:12.049 number of billionaires and their corporations 00:15:12.049 --> 00:15:15.710 and nations and militaries control the vast majority 00:15:15.710 --> 00:15:20.269 of the world's wealth, wreak upon the vast sea 00:15:20.269 --> 00:15:23.870 of billions of suffering human beings who struggle 00:15:23.870 --> 00:15:26.990 to survive each day with next to nothing. I remember 00:15:26.990 --> 00:15:30.649 the Jesuits, Ea Korea and El Salvador, who were 00:15:30.649 --> 00:15:34.830 later killed, saying, You have no idea what it's 00:15:34.830 --> 00:15:37.470 like to be alive on this planet, which is the 00:15:37.470 --> 00:15:40.029 vast majority of people through history and around 00:15:40.029 --> 00:15:42.789 the world today presume they're going to die 00:15:42.789 --> 00:15:45.409 by the end of the day. That was what they were 00:15:45.409 --> 00:15:49.690 trying to teach me, that you're not going to 00:15:49.690 --> 00:15:51.809 survive this day. And so you're totally dependent 00:15:51.809 --> 00:15:55.710 on God. And I was very moved as I started reading 00:15:55.710 --> 00:15:59.659 your book that you open. write with the most 00:15:59.659 --> 00:16:03.259 shocking statement in the New Testament, maybe 00:16:03.259 --> 00:16:06.340 the whole Bible, which is Luke chapter 16, the 00:16:06.340 --> 00:16:09.240 parable of the rich man and Lazarus. And because 00:16:09.240 --> 00:16:11.940 you just get right to it, it's just in your face. 00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:15.399 So I was wondering how to get around this. I 00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:17.980 thought, well, if it's okay with you, I could 00:16:17.980 --> 00:16:21.240 read a few of the bit of the story and then just 00:16:21.240 --> 00:16:24.480 let you talk about that because it sums up your 00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:27.240 whole message to us. Is that okay, Jed? Yeah, 00:16:27.299 --> 00:16:29.860 go for it. Okay, so this, friends, is Luke 16. 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:32.860 I'm just reading from the gospel and asked Chet 00:16:32.860 --> 00:16:36.440 Myers to respond. So it's the parable of the 00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:39.940 poor man and the rich man. When the poor man 00:16:39.940 --> 00:16:42.840 died, he was carried away by angels to the bosom 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:46.340 of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. 00:16:46.899 --> 00:16:50.379 And from the netherworld, where he was in torment, 00:16:50.700 --> 00:16:55.940 he raised his eyes and saw Abraham far off. with 00:16:55.940 --> 00:16:58.580 Lazarus at his side. And he cried out, Father 00:16:58.580 --> 00:17:02.120 Abraham, have pity on me. Send Lazarus to dip 00:17:02.120 --> 00:17:05.380 the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, 00:17:05.460 --> 00:17:09.200 for I am suffering torment in these flames. And 00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:14.619 Abraham replied, My child, remember that you 00:17:14.619 --> 00:17:17.059 received what was good during your lifetime, 00:17:17.180 --> 00:17:22.400 while Lazarus received what was bad, but now 00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:25.400 he is comforted here, whereas you are tormented. 00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:30.200 Moreover, between us and you, a great chasm is 00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:33.039 established to prevent anyone from crossing, 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:35.660 who might wish to go from our side to yours, 00:17:35.720 --> 00:17:38.380 or from your side to ours. And he said, Well, 00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:41.880 then I beg you, Father, send him to my father's 00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:43.680 house, for I have five brothers, so that they 00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:47.000 might so that he might warn them, lest they too 00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:49.660 come to this place of torment. And Abraham replied, 00:17:50.039 --> 00:17:53.700 They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen 00:17:53.700 --> 00:17:56.599 to them. He said, Oh no, Father Abraham, but 00:17:56.599 --> 00:17:59.819 if someone from the dead goes to them, they will 00:17:59.819 --> 00:18:03.099 repent. And Abraham said, If they will not listen 00:18:03.099 --> 00:18:08.420 to Moses and the prophets, neither will they 00:18:08.420 --> 00:18:11.539 be persuaded if someone should rise from the 00:18:11.539 --> 00:18:16.220 dead. Yeah, that story is truly a text of terror 00:18:16.220 --> 00:18:18.880 for those of us who enjoy raising class privileges 00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:24.140 in the global economy. And it is, if you had 00:18:24.140 --> 00:18:29.059 to take any text from Luke as the molten core 00:18:29.059 --> 00:18:33.220 of the Sabbath economics message of the third 00:18:33.220 --> 00:18:38.880 gospel, this would be it, which is why the church 00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:44.539 has gotten very adept at. uh avoiding it altogether 00:18:44.539 --> 00:18:49.420 or if necessary spiritualizing it beyond recognition 00:18:49.420 --> 00:18:55.500 um so yeah i i'd love to make a few comments 00:18:55.500 --> 00:19:01.799 but what i want to do first um is draw your attention 00:19:01.799 --> 00:19:03.740 you know this is the non -violent jesus podcast 00:19:03.740 --> 00:19:11.279 and um the biggest single core root issue of 00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:17.099 violence, historically and globally, is economic 00:19:17.099 --> 00:19:22.380 disparity. It is the gulf, the cruel gulf, between 00:19:22.380 --> 00:19:25.119 the haves and the have -nots, the have -too -muches 00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:30.980 and the have -not -enoughs. And as I do in the 00:19:30.980 --> 00:19:33.740 book, I want to draw the attention of your audience 00:19:33.740 --> 00:19:40.450 to the single most helpful and articulate platform 00:19:40.450 --> 00:19:45.869 for analyzing this kind of disparity and you 00:19:45.869 --> 00:19:50.069 find that at inequality .org of united for a 00:19:50.069 --> 00:19:54.809 fair economy chuck collins is the animator of 00:19:54.809 --> 00:19:57.690 inequality .org he's a regular blogger on it 00:19:57.690 --> 00:20:03.329 he just has a gift for concisely mapping the 00:20:03.329 --> 00:20:08.839 systemic issues that are at stake He wrote the 00:20:08.839 --> 00:20:12.779 foreword for HAARP. This fall, he published a 00:20:12.779 --> 00:20:16.759 book called Burned by Billionaires, How Concentrated 00:20:16.759 --> 00:20:19.119 Wealth and Power Are Ruining Our Lives and Our 00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:25.079 Planet. And I just want to commend that to your 00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:29.319 audience. I consider it the companion volume 00:20:29.319 --> 00:20:32.940 to this Luke book, and Chuck and I have done 00:20:32.940 --> 00:20:37.589 some webinars together. Because concentrations 00:20:37.589 --> 00:20:43.369 of wealth underlie every form of violence. And 00:20:43.369 --> 00:20:47.390 so I'd even encourage you, John, to invite Chuck, 00:20:47.569 --> 00:20:50.329 who's a deeply Catholic activist you probably 00:20:50.329 --> 00:20:55.150 know him, to join you on the Jesus Podcast. So 00:20:55.150 --> 00:21:02.309 as for the parable, it really lies right at the 00:21:02.309 --> 00:21:05.960 center of the series of rich man's stories. that 00:21:05.960 --> 00:21:08.180 I focus on in the second half of this book. It's 00:21:08.180 --> 00:21:11.839 like a fulcrum to the narrative as a whole or 00:21:11.839 --> 00:21:17.059 a summary statement. And frankly, its edge is 00:21:17.059 --> 00:21:20.420 pretty straightforward, which is why it is so 00:21:20.420 --> 00:21:26.039 rigorously avoided in our churches. What the 00:21:26.039 --> 00:21:28.660 preface to the story that John didn't read, of 00:21:28.660 --> 00:21:31.980 course, is that here's this guy, Lazarus, who 00:21:31.980 --> 00:21:36.440 lives and dies. literally at the doorstep of 00:21:36.440 --> 00:21:42.640 this rich man's mansion. And when they both die, 00:21:42.819 --> 00:21:49.640 the story pretty matter -of -factly says no burial 00:21:49.640 --> 00:21:52.359 for Lazarus, typical of poor people, probably 00:21:52.359 --> 00:21:55.460 thrown in a trash heap somewhere, but directly 00:21:55.460 --> 00:22:00.880 into the bosom of Abraham. Rock my soul in the 00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:04.440 bosom of Abraham. You know, that old spiritual, 00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:09.720 that's not about us. That's about the cast -off, 00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:16.140 the ignored, the invisibilized poor. The rich 00:22:16.140 --> 00:22:19.220 man, after his burial, which no doubt was full 00:22:19.220 --> 00:22:23.960 of pomp and circumstance, wakes up on the other 00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:29.680 side of a gulf. And that's really the key to 00:22:29.680 --> 00:22:33.880 this story. This story is... A restorative justice 00:22:33.880 --> 00:22:39.019 story. My partner Elaine is a long time restorative 00:22:39.019 --> 00:22:42.700 justice practitioner and at the core of restorative 00:22:42.700 --> 00:22:48.359 justice is perpetrators understanding the harm 00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:52.920 that they have done to victims. It's victims 00:22:52.920 --> 00:23:01.220 speaking their truth and this plutocrat finds 00:23:01.220 --> 00:23:08.180 himself On the other side of a gulf, again, but 00:23:08.180 --> 00:23:13.380 it's switched. He never saw Lazarus, even though 00:23:13.380 --> 00:23:16.660 Lazarus was mere yards away from him on the other 00:23:16.660 --> 00:23:23.599 side of his portico. Here, now, he's having to 00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:28.000 face the truth of that gulf from its other side, 00:23:28.099 --> 00:23:33.440 which is the only way most of us awaken. to the 00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:39.640 cruelty of the gulfs that we build. John read 00:23:39.640 --> 00:23:44.500 the verses in which this plutocrat amazingly 00:23:44.500 --> 00:23:50.200 continues to live in his entitled fantasy by 00:23:50.200 --> 00:23:54.599 boldly screaming at Abraham from the other side 00:23:54.599 --> 00:23:57.880 of the gulf and demanding that Abraham dispatch 00:23:57.880 --> 00:24:02.759 Lazarus like an errand boy. to help him out. 00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:08.259 So that shows that conversion is still a little 00:24:08.259 --> 00:24:14.880 far away. That sequence, ironic sequence, culminates 00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:22.359 with him demanding that Father Abraham, the great 00:24:22.359 --> 00:24:30.359 ancestor, dispatch someone who rises from the 00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:34.440 dead to speak to his own kin to warn them um 00:24:34.440 --> 00:24:40.640 to which um after enduring this plutocrats repeated 00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:44.200 insistence on the continuing entitlement of him 00:24:44.200 --> 00:24:49.380 and his family old abe replies sharply well they 00:24:49.380 --> 00:24:52.559 got the same bible we do moses and the prophets 00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:56.920 time to read it and of course he says no no we 00:24:56.920 --> 00:25:03.599 we need uh The rich man named Divus in the tradition 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:08.019 insists on special treatment on some sort of 00:25:08.019 --> 00:25:11.680 get out of jail free card. If someone from the 00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:14.099 dead goes to them, they'll repent. And Abraham 00:25:14.099 --> 00:25:18.319 says, actually, brother, if they don't listen 00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:20.680 to Muslim prophets and the prophets, they will 00:25:20.680 --> 00:25:24.480 not be persuaded, even if someone should rise. 00:25:25.430 --> 00:25:29.710 Now, this is an astonishing assertion from the 00:25:29.710 --> 00:25:32.470 elder one, especially for a Christian audience 00:25:32.470 --> 00:25:37.349 for whom resurrection is this miracle that resolves 00:25:37.349 --> 00:25:40.910 everything. It's kind of the happy ending. But 00:25:40.910 --> 00:25:43.470 Abraham is clear. It's all there in the book. 00:25:43.869 --> 00:25:50.650 Sabbath economics. Don't miss it. This unsettling 00:25:50.650 --> 00:25:53.710 thread, it should be unsettling to us, is poignantly 00:25:53.710 --> 00:25:57.650 picked back up again at the end of Luke's story, 00:25:57.769 --> 00:26:02.309 in which on the Emmaus Road, the brutalized but 00:26:02.309 --> 00:26:08.710 risen one, not once but twice, convenes his beleaguered 00:26:08.710 --> 00:26:14.210 disciples to hold a Bible study in Moses and 00:26:14.210 --> 00:26:18.099 the prophets. That's the only way, he says, you 00:26:18.099 --> 00:26:21.539 will understand what has happened on this cross 00:26:21.539 --> 00:26:26.720 and what needs to happen going forward. So more 00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:31.539 than any other aspect of Luke, this thread of 00:26:31.539 --> 00:26:37.799 the absolute necessity of biblical literacy, 00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:42.380 if we Christians are going to follow the way, 00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:46.210 I take this thread as a commissioning. to dive 00:26:46.210 --> 00:26:49.170 deeply into our scriptures, to exhume their message 00:26:49.170 --> 00:26:53.089 of Sabbath economics. And it all arises from 00:26:53.089 --> 00:26:55.950 that story that you put your finger on, John. 00:26:56.009 --> 00:26:59.470 Thanks, Jed. It's so powerful to hear you talk 00:26:59.470 --> 00:27:03.509 about this. And friends, again, I urge you to 00:27:03.509 --> 00:27:06.289 get the book and listen to Jed's YouTube videos 00:27:06.289 --> 00:27:09.069 and wherever you can find him. So, Jed, we have 00:27:09.069 --> 00:27:13.420 to at least talk about one other. mythic, critical 00:27:13.420 --> 00:27:18.980 text, Luke 4 in Luke's gospel, which is central 00:27:18.980 --> 00:27:24.119 to your book and to the story and life. My take, 00:27:24.200 --> 00:27:26.519 Chad, and I read about this in my recent book, 00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:28.819 The Gospel of Peace, which is a commentary on 00:27:28.819 --> 00:27:32.140 the synoptics, is that Luke's Jesus launches 00:27:32.140 --> 00:27:35.079 in the Nazareth synagogue in Luke chapter 4, 00:27:35.200 --> 00:27:38.339 a permanent grassroots nonviolent revolution. 00:27:38.990 --> 00:27:41.450 for justice for the poor, liberation of the oppressed, 00:27:41.630 --> 00:27:44.809 wealth redistribution, and total social equality 00:27:44.809 --> 00:27:48.589 that continues today. It's a permanent revolution. 00:27:48.690 --> 00:27:53.049 And it's like his campaign platform speech, or 00:27:53.049 --> 00:27:55.809 it's announcing, I'm beginning this campaign 00:27:55.809 --> 00:28:01.079 that'll never end. You refer to Luke 4. where 00:28:01.079 --> 00:28:03.660 Jesus, of course, reads from Isaiah 61 in many 00:28:03.660 --> 00:28:06.799 ways and says similar things, like as a manifesto, 00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:09.980 as a key to understanding all of Luke. So, again, 00:28:10.099 --> 00:28:12.400 I'd like to propose, because it's so critical, 00:28:12.460 --> 00:28:15.079 with your permission to read just a little bit 00:28:15.079 --> 00:28:19.140 of Luke 4 and then ask you to reflect on it. 00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:25.460 Okay, Chet? Yes, sir. So, here goes. He came 00:28:25.460 --> 00:28:28.319 to Nazareth, where he had grown up. and went 00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:30.900 according to his custom into the synagogue on 00:28:30.900 --> 00:28:34.420 the Sabbath day. He stood up to read and was 00:28:34.420 --> 00:28:38.440 handed a scroll of the prophet Isaiah. He unrolled 00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:41.200 the scroll and found the passage where it was 00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:45.940 written, quote, The Spirit of the Lord is upon 00:28:45.940 --> 00:28:49.759 me because he has anointed me to bring glad tidings 00:28:49.759 --> 00:28:53.000 to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty 00:28:53.000 --> 00:28:56.259 to the captives and recovery of sight to the 00:28:56.259 --> 00:29:00.259 blind. to let the oppressed go free, and to proclaim 00:29:00.259 --> 00:29:05.059 a year acceptable to the Lord. Rolling up the 00:29:05.059 --> 00:29:08.160 scroll, he handed it back to the attendant and 00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:11.559 sat down, and the eyes of all in the synagogue 00:29:11.559 --> 00:29:14.680 looked intently at him, and he said to them, 00:29:15.380 --> 00:29:19.440 Today this scripture passage is fulfilled in 00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:22.859 your hearing. Jed, I think that's the most daring, 00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:26.079 bold sentence ever said in human history. Today, 00:29:26.220 --> 00:29:35.680 it's fulfilled. It's just such a fabulous text. 00:29:35.880 --> 00:29:39.279 And of course, you and I both like to note that 00:29:39.279 --> 00:29:44.319 this was history's shortest homily. Let us long 00:29:44.319 --> 00:29:48.829 -winded preachers take note. But I love it because 00:29:48.829 --> 00:29:52.650 it starts out like a normal day. You know, hometown, 00:29:53.069 --> 00:29:58.910 going to church like everybody does. You read 00:29:58.910 --> 00:30:07.309 the text. You sit down. But everything goes to 00:30:07.309 --> 00:30:13.380 hell with this one line today. This text. comes 00:30:13.380 --> 00:30:17.619 alive literally in your ears as you are hearing 00:30:17.619 --> 00:30:27.519 it. And, you know, he's saying something very 00:30:27.519 --> 00:30:31.720 radical, and that suddenly upends the normalcy 00:30:31.720 --> 00:30:36.619 of the day. But it's actually the praxis that 00:30:36.619 --> 00:30:41.089 comes from his declaration. that this story lives 00:30:41.089 --> 00:30:44.890 again. So Jesus is doing, he's practicing the 00:30:44.890 --> 00:30:50.029 art of recontextualizing sacred texts, saying 00:30:50.029 --> 00:30:55.750 we read this now, we read this here. This is 00:30:55.750 --> 00:31:00.750 what it means to embrace and embody this text 00:31:00.750 --> 00:31:05.930 here and now. Well, as long as you keep it in 00:31:05.930 --> 00:31:11.029 theory. Like in this text, the crowd begins commending 00:31:11.029 --> 00:31:14.549 Jesus' eloquence and short -windedness until 00:31:14.549 --> 00:31:19.450 he brings it inconveniently home. He recontextualizes 00:31:19.450 --> 00:31:25.309 this text here and now. And he does so by arguing 00:31:25.309 --> 00:31:31.690 that Isaiah 61 applies to the marginalized. In 00:31:31.690 --> 00:31:35.269 so doing, sharply challenging his Jewish audiences. 00:31:36.039 --> 00:31:39.220 consciousness of entitlement. We should think 00:31:39.220 --> 00:31:42.779 of white privilege today. How does he do this? 00:31:42.839 --> 00:31:46.559 He does this by exercising biblical literacy 00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:50.940 and imagination. He reminds them of Elijah's 00:31:50.940 --> 00:31:55.700 widow of Zarephath, a foreigner. He reminds them 00:31:55.700 --> 00:32:01.440 of Elisha's healing of an enemy general in order 00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:05.819 to make clear that God prioritizes outsiders, 00:32:06.359 --> 00:32:12.319 ethnic, economic, and otherwise. And so at the 00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:16.759 very outset of this story, Luke is signaling 00:32:16.759 --> 00:32:21.460 that his gospel is going to be an exercise in 00:32:21.460 --> 00:32:26.180 rereading the scriptures into one's context with 00:32:26.180 --> 00:32:31.819 an edge and with consequence, because as your 00:32:31.819 --> 00:32:35.349 audience knows, This little homily ends up with 00:32:35.349 --> 00:32:42.750 a mob trying to throw Jesus off of a cliff. I 00:32:42.750 --> 00:32:46.329 opened the book with a little model about what 00:32:46.329 --> 00:32:49.349 it means to read contextually and recontextually 00:32:49.349 --> 00:32:56.069 as a discipline of a nonviolent church bringing 00:32:56.069 --> 00:33:00.869 these texts alive. And this is a great story 00:33:00.869 --> 00:33:04.759 in that work. Wow, Chad, thanks so much. Just 00:33:04.759 --> 00:33:08.180 so provocative and wonderful. Well, I have about 00:33:08.180 --> 00:33:10.960 20 more questions and we have about five more 00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:14.099 minutes, but who cares? I got to ask you this 00:33:14.099 --> 00:33:16.099 about the resurrection because you drop these 00:33:16.099 --> 00:33:22.109 nonviolent bombshells left and right. In your 00:33:22.109 --> 00:33:24.750 book, and you've already mentioned Emmaus, so 00:33:24.750 --> 00:33:27.029 that's why I'm going to ask you. You lament how 00:33:27.029 --> 00:33:30.450 the resurrection has been tamed and watered down, 00:33:30.690 --> 00:33:33.450 let's say, by the culture of death or plutocracy. 00:33:34.170 --> 00:33:36.369 And in particular, in the mythic story of Luke 00:33:36.369 --> 00:33:39.269 24, where the risen Jesus meets the two downtrodden 00:33:39.269 --> 00:33:42.849 disciples leaving Jerusalem, walking out to Emmaus. 00:33:43.569 --> 00:33:46.690 So this, friends, is a quote from Ched in his 00:33:46.690 --> 00:33:50.859 new book. Quote. The fact that the Emmaus episode 00:33:50.859 --> 00:33:55.039 has been so thoroughly sentimentalized in contemporary 00:33:55.039 --> 00:33:58.019 middle -class North American Christianity is 00:33:58.019 --> 00:34:00.720 perhaps the most telling indication of the continuing 00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:04.279 hegemony of triumphalist resurrection theologies 00:34:04.279 --> 00:34:09.039 and supremacist political ideologies. The Easter 00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:13.300 story often degenerates into a happily ever after 00:34:13.300 --> 00:34:18.269 fairy tale. Commercialized civil religion Exhibits 00:34:18.269 --> 00:34:21.690 an evil genius for further domesticating Easter 00:34:21.690 --> 00:34:25.510 by chocolate coating it, the Easter bunny industrial 00:34:25.510 --> 00:34:29.130 complex, or whitewashing it through artistic 00:34:29.130 --> 00:34:31.789 renderings that bleach the risen Christ into 00:34:31.789 --> 00:34:36.469 an unbearable whiteness of being. Wow, Jed. I 00:34:36.469 --> 00:34:38.730 know this is ridiculous, but tell us briefly 00:34:38.730 --> 00:34:42.590 about your take on the Emmaus story and the politics 00:34:42.590 --> 00:34:48.579 of resurrection. You know, it's one of the ways 00:34:48.579 --> 00:34:54.519 in which we really see Luke. The Mass Road story 00:34:54.519 --> 00:34:57.539 is completely Luke and you don't find it anywhere 00:34:57.539 --> 00:35:01.179 else. That's why I actually begin the book with 00:35:01.179 --> 00:35:05.780 a meditation on this epilogue to Luke's gospel. 00:35:07.420 --> 00:35:14.440 And I do so because it so clearly exhibits resurrection 00:35:14.440 --> 00:35:18.139 faith. as the practice of biblical literacy. 00:35:20.239 --> 00:35:24.800 But, you know, all anybody has to do is just 00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:28.820 Google or some other less controversial search 00:35:28.820 --> 00:35:33.400 engine classical religious art about the resurrection, 00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:36.420 and you'll see what I mean about the way that 00:35:36.420 --> 00:35:39.980 it is glorified and sentimentalized. But in this 00:35:39.980 --> 00:35:44.719 story, actually, Jesus points his disciples, 00:35:44.840 --> 00:35:51.559 and by implication, the reader, to examine his 00:35:51.559 --> 00:36:00.380 wounds. And, you know, these are not arthroscopic 00:36:00.380 --> 00:36:03.739 surgical wounds, right? He just got beat up and 00:36:03.739 --> 00:36:08.820 strung on a cross. And, you know, it's gruesome. 00:36:08.820 --> 00:36:11.980 It was gruesome, as torture today is gruesome. 00:36:12.019 --> 00:36:15.539 And he's saying, okay. check out these wounds. 00:36:15.820 --> 00:36:19.639 It's really me. And you can't understand that 00:36:19.639 --> 00:36:25.280 the risen one is still the crucified one until 00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:31.119 you reckon with my somatic trauma. And so there's 00:36:31.119 --> 00:36:34.059 the famous story about the touching of the wounds, 00:36:34.159 --> 00:36:37.659 after which Jesus resumes his Bible study to 00:36:37.659 --> 00:36:40.860 help his disciples make sense of that. So this 00:36:40.860 --> 00:36:46.280 is very specifically a pushback against the religious 00:36:46.280 --> 00:36:52.019 impulse to take this story out of the world and 00:36:52.019 --> 00:36:57.579 situate it in a glorious other world. So not 00:36:57.579 --> 00:37:00.559 only is biblical literacy at the core of this 00:37:00.559 --> 00:37:06.139 story, but also this encounter with somatic trauma, 00:37:06.280 --> 00:37:10.420 which means It's not enough just to read our 00:37:10.420 --> 00:37:14.460 Bible. We also have to be in relationship with 00:37:14.460 --> 00:37:19.300 the somatic trauma within ourselves and around 00:37:19.300 --> 00:37:23.380 us in our society if we're going to follow this 00:37:23.380 --> 00:37:27.800 Jesus. And this is the way that Luke ends his 00:37:27.800 --> 00:37:32.599 story. I just think it's an amazing commissioning 00:37:32.599 --> 00:37:40.219 to... to discipline our theological and political 00:37:40.219 --> 00:37:45.079 imaginations, to focus on prophetic narrative 00:37:45.079 --> 00:37:50.719 and to focus on those who are sustaining somatic 00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:55.099 trauma right now as we speak. Chad, thank you 00:37:55.099 --> 00:37:57.780 so much for that. And we're really out of time. 00:37:57.860 --> 00:38:00.519 So might you come back some other day and we'll 00:38:00.519 --> 00:38:03.630 keep the conversation going on the Gospels. Would 00:38:03.630 --> 00:38:06.510 love to do that. Okay. So we're at the end. Is 00:38:06.510 --> 00:38:09.130 there anything else you'd like to say to your 00:38:09.130 --> 00:38:12.650 listeners, or particularly any kind of word of 00:38:12.650 --> 00:38:16.489 encouragement about following Luke's Jesus and 00:38:16.489 --> 00:38:18.789 the work of justice, disarmament, and peace? 00:38:19.409 --> 00:38:23.829 Yeah, the book ends with some appendices for 00:38:23.829 --> 00:38:27.909 how we might proclaim this gospel, particularly 00:38:27.909 --> 00:38:31.730 during the year C lectionary, but all the time. 00:38:32.329 --> 00:38:36.469 And another appendix that talks about resources 00:38:36.469 --> 00:38:40.269 for those who would embrace Sabbath economics 00:38:40.269 --> 00:38:45.429 personally and politically. I want to note two 00:38:45.429 --> 00:38:48.090 in particular. One is the Faith and Money Network 00:38:48.090 --> 00:38:50.750 in Washington, D .C. that helps people work on 00:38:50.750 --> 00:38:54.070 their household economics in a Sabbath economics 00:38:54.070 --> 00:38:57.789 framework. And the other is the amazing Francesco 00:38:57.789 --> 00:39:03.630 Collective, Catholic investment group that helps 00:39:03.630 --> 00:39:07.110 people deal with their surplus. And of course, 00:39:07.130 --> 00:39:10.309 I want to mention again, inequality .org so that 00:39:10.309 --> 00:39:14.530 we can always remain clear. You can find Healing 00:39:14.530 --> 00:39:20.789 Afterlens at my page on bookshop .org. And you 00:39:20.789 --> 00:39:27.869 can find us at Bartimaeus at bcmonline .org. 00:39:28.409 --> 00:39:31.969 And so grateful for this time. And we just hope 00:39:31.969 --> 00:39:36.289 that this tome can be a bit of a resource as 00:39:36.289 --> 00:39:38.809 we follow the nonviolent Jesus together in hard 00:39:38.809 --> 00:39:42.630 times. Well, thank you so much, Chet Myers, for 00:39:42.630 --> 00:39:44.610 everything, for speaking with me today about 00:39:44.610 --> 00:39:47.449 your great new book. And please, friends, go 00:39:47.449 --> 00:39:51.170 and get it, Healing Affluenza and Resisting Plutocracy 00:39:51.170 --> 00:39:55.010 on Luke's Jesus and Sabbath Economics. Maybe 00:39:55.010 --> 00:39:57.269 Chet might come back and speak on Mark someday. 00:39:57.800 --> 00:40:00.590 Binding the Strongman. Thank you for listening 00:40:00.590 --> 00:40:03.170 to the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. And you can 00:40:03.170 --> 00:40:06.289 hear more podcasts and find other upcoming Zoom 00:40:06.289 --> 00:40:11.909 programs at www .beatitudecenter .org. Maybe 00:40:11.909 --> 00:40:14.349 offer a donation there to support this free work. 00:40:14.570 --> 00:40:17.630 And also please sign up to receive our free e 00:40:17.630 --> 00:40:20.809 -blast with news about upcoming podcasts and 00:40:20.809 --> 00:40:23.849 Zooms. And leave some positive feedback if you 00:40:23.849 --> 00:40:27.150 can. And please spread the word about this podcast 00:40:27.150 --> 00:40:30.000 by telling your friends and colleagues. and fellow 00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:32.960 church folk about it. So may the God of peace 00:40:32.960 --> 00:40:35.719 bless you all. Keep on following the nonviolent 00:40:35.719 --> 00:40:37.519 Jesus and see you next time.