Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm
John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking
with Emily Yellen, co -author of the big new
memoir by the late Reverend Jim Lawson. This
is a project of www .beatitudecenter .org, where
you can find many other podcasts and regular
Zoom programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and
practicing nonviolence and working for a more
just, more nonviolent world. So as we always
do, I'd like to begin with just a little prayer.
So I just invite you, wherever you are, just
to take a deep breath and to relax and to recenter
yourself. And together we enter into the presence
of the God of peace and love who loves you personally
and infinitely and everyone everywhere. And we
welcome the nonviolent Jesus here with us. Just
take a moment. to ask for whatever graces you
need to carry on the work of peace and do God's
will. God of peace, thank you for all the blessings
of life and love and peace that you give us.
Be with us now as we reflect together on your
call to follow the nonviolent Jesus and work
for a more nonviolent, more just world. Bless
us, inspire us, disarm us, strengthen us, and
send us out to do your will, to do our part in
racism, poverty, greed, systemic injustice. fascism,
war, nuclear weapons, and environmental destruction,
that we might be your holy peacemakers and welcome
your reign of universal love, nonviolence, justice,
and peace on earth. Amen. Well, it's a great
blessing to welcome today Emily Yellen to talk
about her major new book, The Posthumous Memoir.
of the great civil rights leader, Reverend Jim
Lawson. The book comes out on February 17th from
Random House, and I strongly urge everyone listening
to order it wherever you get your books and jump
into it. It's fantastic. It's called Nonviolent,
My Life of Resistance, Agitation, and Love. As
some of you may know, Jim Lawson was a very close
friend of mine, and I knew him for 34 years.
I met him in jail in 1991, as you do. And later
he hired me and was my boss at the Fellowship
of Reconciliation. We spoke around the country
together, went to jail together many times. And
for the last 10 or so years of his life, we talked
every month on the phone, right up to his death.
Emily Yellen is a journalist, writer, and producer,
a longtime writer for the New York Times. I think
she was in the office handling the South. And
author of two other books, she produced a 10
-part video series called 1300 Men, Memphis Strike
68. which was for The Root, which you might want
to look up. She first met Jim Lawson when she
was five years old while attending elementary
school in Memphis with Jim's oldest son, our
friend John. Emily Yellen, welcome to the Nonviolent
Jesus Podcast. Thank you so much. I'm glad to
be here. Thank you so much for finishing this
great mammoth book. You know how excited I am
about it, because as I told you, I remember walking
down a street with Jim Lawson in 1999 and lecturing
him, as I always did, on why he needs to write
his autobiography. And I was after him about
that for the rest of his life. And here you are.
You pulled it off. Yeah, it was a feat, but it
was a wonderful feat. I feel very lucky, and
when you tell me that, I think, wow, I am lucky,
but I'm also lucky to know you and to hear your
stories about him as well. Well, I remember about
15 years ago, he called me and goes, okay, John,
you be my co -author. But it's just so glad that
you found him and he found you. Just friends
in general, here's a little take. Reverend Jim
Lawson was one of history's greatest teachers
of nonviolence, period. One of Dr. King's best
friends and advisors. And with the book, you'll
go through... most of his life in the civil rights
movement, how he directed the Nashville sit -ins,
then the Freedom Rides, then the Birmingham Campaign,
then the Meredith March, many other episodes,
and most powerfully, how he organized or helped
organize the Memphis Garbage Worker's Strike
of 1968, in which he brought Dr. King to Memphis.
Much against the will of the staff, Dr. King
was killed. And as we all may know, Jim later,
a few years later, moved to Los Angeles, where
he lived for the rest of his life as the pastor
of Holman Methodist Church. Jim was a Methodist
minister and loved being a Methodist minister.
historic work in LA with the workers labor unions
and immigrants and there should be many books
written about just his LA life but he was teaching
non -violence and organizing right up to the
very end and I can testify to that because he
was calling me with telling me what to do so
it was great fun I thought Emily we could try
to walk through his life and you could talk about
various episodes or or however you want to approach
this because there's so much your experience
of writing the book but uh you knew jim for a
long time um you know i think uh feel free to
tell us about the writing the book as we go along
here but um i think you know in my conversations
with jim and my public work with jim and conversations
um He always began by talking about this moment
with his mother in the kitchen. Right. Always.
Right. And then what people don't realize, which
I sure knew, it's just so hard to take in that
Jim went to prison, faced three years in prison
for refusing to fight in the Korean War. This
is so long before Dr. King. And then that he
went and lived in India. I was telling you how
he told me. You know, in the first month, he
was hanging out with Nehru and Gandhi's best
friends. I mean, is she the finger of providence
there? Maybe you could talk a little bit about
that and everything leading up to Dr. King. Well,
I'll say this. The book, the subtitle is My Life
of Resistance, Agitation, and Love. And that's
very deliberate. There are four sections of the
book. The first one is resistance, and it's his
life. childhood and his life up until he met
Dr. King in 1957 in Ohio at Oberlin College.
So we'll start with that part. The second part
is agitation, and that we made from 1958 to 1967.
So it was much of what's called the Civil Rights
Movement. And then 1968 and Memphis, the strike
in Memphis and the whole year. has its own section.
It's six chapters. And then the final part of
the book is called Still Going On. And Still
Going On was what Reverend, what Dr. King said
about Reverend Lawson the night before he was
killed in the mountaintop speech. He said that
Jim Lawson had always been fighting for his people.
He got kicked out. He went to prison. He got
kicked out of Vanderbilt, all fighting for the
rights of his people. And he's still going on
fighting for the rights of his people. And so
we thought that that 50 years after King died,
that he got to live and King did not. They were
the same age. That's really still going on, and
obviously the double meaning. Reverend Lawson
was still going on. The same issues were still
going on. So that's kind of an overview. But
let's start with resistance, which the book has
as 1928 when he was born to 1957. And the very
first line in the book was... a story that he
tells when he was four years old. The very first
line of this book called Nonviolent is, I punched
a white boy in his face, or I smacked a white
boy in his face when I was four years old. And
I asked him, what does this book need to be?
And he says, I want it to show that people can
transform, that places can transform, that nations
can transform. And so starting with... this nonviolent
icon punching somebody for calling him the N
-word, that seemed like a good place to start.
And that happened for a couple of years. His
mother and his father, his father was a Methodist
minister as well, immigrated from Canada, and
his mother was from Jamaica. So he was the child
of immigrants. And they had sort of a philosophical
difference. His father believed it was okay to
punch some people a couple of times and that
violence had its place. But his mother, his mother
is the one who said there has to be a better
way. And so by the time, yeah, by the time he
is about, we figured it out, it was probably
fourth grade, something like that, or maybe a
little older. Anyway, he had encountered another
racist kid, apparently. Massillon, Ohio had a
few of them. And, you know, again, calling him
the N -word and other derogatory names. And he
hit the kid again. And that time he hadn't told
his parents and that time he did. And there's
this moment where he comes into the kitchen in
the afternoon after that had happened. And he
tells his mother who's cooking and she's looking
at the stove. She's not even looking at him.
And he describes this moment where. And she's
talking, and he starts hearing a voice within
himself, and he heard her, and it was a very
magical or spiritual moment. And that's when
his mother said, what good did that do, Jimmy?
There has to be a better way. And that's really
the turning point for him. And he said that from
that moment on, he didn't ever hit. anybody again.
He didn't use violence. He was going to find
a better way. And the rest of the book, in the
rest of his life, is him doing that. And boy,
did he do that, right? Thank you, Emily. That
is so true. And he talked about that up right
to the end with me and others, his mother. She
must have been great, really great person. But
yeah, she was very Christian and very much believed
in the values that we attribute to Jesus. I am
not by any means a Christian scholar or anything,
but I even can see that what she was talking
about is pure, and so much of what we hear and
people take is not. And that's what I think one
of the things, I know we're going to get into
this, but one of the things that really just
stunned me all the time about Reverend Lawson
was, his conviction, but also his consistency,
and not a sort of blind consistency, but it came
from within. It came from a deep, deep conviction,
you know, a deep conviction to love, real love,
you know? Can you say a word about the... Yeah,
go ahead. A word about the prison that I want
to hear in India. Yeah, yeah. And so... It followed
him, and it flows through his story in many ways.
He went to college. He resisted the draft, actually.
He didn't resist the war. saying when he sent
back his draft card and didn't cooperate with
the Selective Service was that he didn't believe
the Selective Service in the Selective Service.
He believed it was racist and that it did not,
you know, that it was wrong. And so he refused
to cooperate. He could have gotten an exemption.
He could have become a conscientious objector.
He didn't do that. He did this in the same way
that Bayard Rustin had done in World War II.
And so he was made an example, and he was sent
to federal prison. And for those of us who are
writing with and about him, he kept journals
in prison, very detailed and very earnest, if
I may say so. Yeah, that was Jim. I read some
of them to him, and it's when you're 22 years
old, and he laughed at how earnest he was. But
at one point he made a declaration and it had
all these whereas, whereas, whereases in them.
But in one of the most stunning documents that
I think we found in all of that was there was
a woman that he was friends with and he wanted
it to be more than friends and he wrote her letters
from prison and she apparently kept them. And
then she donated them to the same library where
his papers are at Vanderbilt. One of the letters
from 1951, he's telling her, I don't know why
there can't be a movement in America, in the
South, at the heart of where racism lives, that
black people would come together and rise up
and there would have to be a charismatic leader,
but I know that I'm going to be part of this.
And he said that in 1951. He knew. He was a genius.
He kept saying it. He kept saying it. Yes, he
did. And then... He got out of prison after a
year. He was supposed to serve three years. And
one of the conditions was he had to go abroad,
and the Methodist church promised they would
send him on a mission, so he went to India. Amazing.
And he was in India, and as you said, he met
with Nehru, he met with all the people who had
worked with Gandhi, and he was already very committed
to nonviolence. He had been a member of FOR,
the Fellowship of Reconciliation, as you know.
And, you know, just coincidentally, freshman
year at Baldwin Wallace College in Ohio, he met
A .J. Mustie. And then he had worked with Bayard
Rustin and Jim Farmer in F .O .R. things and
in Methodist student movement. And so all of
these people and places kind of just kept appearing
before him. And he kept, you know, embracing
them. And he gets to India and he does all that.
He also travels through Africa at the time and
meets leaders of the independence movement, which
was amazing. He's so young, too. Right, right.
He's in his 20s, and it was mid -1950s. And if
you ask Reverend Lawson, if you would ask him,
you know, when did you meet Martin Luther King,
the actual answer most of us would say is 1957
at Oberlin College. But he would always say,
I met him in 1956 on the pages of the Nagpur
Times. He would never say that he met him in
1957. He would say, in 1957, that was when I
first shook hands with him. But he said, you
know, he almost felt like he knew him before
he met him, I think. And he describes that moment
when he's in India and he's just... been out.
He was a coach, a football coach in India. And
he'd been out playing football that morning,
took a shower, came in, had breakfast and was
at his desk. And he takes the Nagpur Times and
there's an article about the Montgomery bus boycott
and this man named Martin Luther King. And he
started dancing and whooping and hollering because
what he had been dreaming of and talking of and
knowing he was going to be part of. This was
it. This was it. And he was so excited. One of
his colleagues came in and said, are you okay?
And he said, yes, yes. And he was thrilled. And
then he goes back and he decides to go to Oberlin
to get a graduate degree, divinity degree. And
Martin Luther King happens to come to Oberlin
and do a speech about the Montgomery movement
campaign. And they meet at lunch. I said when
I was writing this, I want readers, when they
get to that point, instead of saying, wow, how
lucky was James Lawson to meet Martin Luther
King, I want people to say, wow, how lucky was
Martin Luther King to meet Reverend James Lawson?
No, it's critical, Emily, because that is the
way it was, because Martin Luther King didn't...
know anything except he was a genius and brilliant
and he loved A .J. Mostino, but he slept with
a gun until Bayard Rustin showed up. So he gets
to meet Jim Lawson, who's already done time in
prison, who knows Gandhi's best friend, who's
way ahead of him, really, in nonviolence. And
it was like that till Dr. King died, I think.
I think Jim was Martin's mentor. And my question
for you is, just talk about... the two of them
together over the course of their lives, Martin
Luther King and Jim Lawson, in any way you want.
Because that's the heart of the book, really,
and Jim and how he changed the world. I think
it is, but I think it's also, yeah, no, well,
I will. So I'll answer your question. I think
that there was a friendship there that was very
deep. And I know people, you know, Martin Luther
King had friends. He had a lot of friends and
he had a lot of colleagues. And Jim would never
claim necessarily to be in his inner, inner circle,
you know, and he didn't live in Atlanta and he
wasn't a Baptist preacher. Right. Right. And
he wasn't from the South. However, his son, John,
my friend called him. I think he said it best.
He said they were spiritual brothers because
they both were third generation clergy. They
both believed in nonviolence. They were the same
age. They were born five months apart. And they
both had this deep commitment to nonviolence,
to the nonviolent direct action, to nonviolent
direct action, and that living it as a way of
life was true for both of them. And it was sort
of their North Star, I think, in terms of how
to conduct themselves and how to conduct the
movement. And I think the beloved community...
You know, the belief in that vision also was
a North Star. And that's where they really met
in their minds and their hearts. And that guided
them. But I also, one of the first questions
I asked him when I first interviewed him was,
you know, what was he like? And Reverend Lawson
started talking about how they would play touch
football together and how they both loved. great
food that they had been brought up with. He talked
about the retreat in South Carolina, St. Helena
Island, Frogmore, and that there was this shrimp.
When they would go to that retreat center, there
was this shrimp that was caught that morning,
and it was something called Frogmore stew. And
they would eat that, and they would eat it every
night they were there, you know, just because
it was so good, and they loved that. He told
one time about a touch football game where Martin
Luther King was picking and somebody else was
picking. And Martin Luther King, the first person
he picked was Jim Lawson. He said, I want Jim
Lawson on my side. Because Jim, Reverend Lawson
was an athlete, you know, and so was King. And
they both loved swimming. They loved football.
And in his childhood, you see him, you know,
doing all the sports. And he was a coach in India.
So I think they shared a lot, you know, and they
shared. a real vision together. Yes. And that's
what's so beautiful, I think, throughout the
book is it keeps reemerging. So Jim, I mean,
really could say for Dr. King, Ralph Abernathy
was his closest friend, but maybe Harry Belafonte,
who, you know, got the kids to school and did
miracles. And maybe Stanley Levinson was the
white New Yorker who was really important. Jim
was, if it's possible, more committed to nonviolence
than Martin. I mean, they were absolutely the
same in that. And I think more than anybody else
in the movement, that's where Martin found a
peer in Jim Lawson. total act of nonviolence.
So his statement was, in 1957, Jim Lawson is
the greatest theorist and strategist of nonviolence
in the world. And Jim remained so until his end.
Now, there's too much to talk about, but I want
to walk through some of these things and then
let you say whatever, some of these moments and
say whatever you want. So one of the greatest
nonviolent campaigns... in the movement, and
maybe in certainly U .S. history, was the organizing
Jim did in Nashville, which led to the sit -ins.
Now, the Greensboro kids sat in first, but the
Nashville thing was a very thought -out, structured
movement, and he trained Diane Nash, John Lewis,
Bernard Leffia, and many others. So there's that.
And then... You know, Jim is trying to hire Dr.
King. He gets on the staff of the FOR. And the
next thing you know, he's organizing Freedom
Rides, Birmingham. Jim goes to Vietnam at one
point, way before Dr. King. On a mission. Yeah,
but still. On a peace trip. Yeah. And then also
the Meredith March. So, like, for example, I've
been studying. So I want you to talk about Jim
and the movement. Well, let me start with Nashville.
He gets to Nashville. That's where he decided
to come. When he met Dr. King at Oberlin, Dr.
King said, what are you doing? And he said, well,
I'm going to finish my degree, and then I might
go get a PhD. And he goes, no, we need you now.
Come south now. And Jim Lawson dropped out of
Oberlin and moved to Nashville and was hired
by FOR. And then he enrolled in Vanderbilt's
Divinity School, and he was one of the first
black students at Vanderbilt. And at a certain
point after traveling all over the South, there
was such a strategy. People act like the campaigns
just came up spontaneously and were reactive,
but really they were planned. And Montgomery,
but they were trying to do another Montgomery.
They had to show that they could do it again,
that they could desegregate somewhere else, right?
And so Jim traveled all over, Reverend Lawson
traveled all over the South. for almost two years
and concluded that Nashville was the place, the
place he was living. There was already an active
branch of the SCLC called the Nashville Conference,
Christian Leadership Conference. And there were
other people there who were already committed,
and they had four colleges, you know, three black
colleges. He felt it was the right place. And
so then they started a very important part of
nonviolent direct action, which people don't
really think about, which is they spent six months
listening to the people who lived in Nashville
who were living through segregation. And mostly
the women of Nashville who told them, you know,
the worst part is when we go shopping. And we're
downtown with our children. And if we want to
buy our child some shoes, they can't try them
on. We have to buy the shoes, ride the bus home,
put them on. And then if they don't fit, we have
to come back. We have to get another pair of
shoes. We have to come home on the bus, et cetera.
And then, you know, obviously bathrooms were
an issue. And then if they wanted, you know,
they'd been downtown shopping and they had their
kids and they were in a department store. There
was one that had. play area for the kids and
a lunch counter where they could sit and the
women could sit and have coffee, the wives, the
mothers. And black women couldn't do that. The
black kids couldn't do. They had to tell their
kids, you know, you can't do that. And why? And
so those were the kinds of stories that spurred
them. And so it wasn't obviously just about sitting
at a lunch counter. You know, it was much more.
And that those stories. are when they decided
as a group that we're going to do this. And that's
when they started organizing and recruiting students
from all over the city to come and learn about
nonviolent direct action. And you mentioned John
Lewis. Diane Nash was a student at Fisk. She
was from Chicago. And coming to Nashville, she
experienced segregation for the first time, really,
in her daily life. And she was outraged, but
she didn't really believe in nonviolence. She
just... said it was the only game in town, so
I went. But I think that's where Reverend Lawson
really brought people in, but he also got to
their hearts and got to them in a way that, I
don't know the words for it, but that changed
people, transformed people, and that transformation
element that he was trying to do all over the
place. And so I think that's an important thing
to know is that none of this sprung up spontaneously
in reaction. It was planned. It was strategic.
In many ways, and Reverend Lawson eventually
said this, the planning and the strategy and
the training and the equipping, it was equivalent
to the military, but it was the opposite means
and goals and everything of the military. And
so I think that was a really important point
that I really... Didn't know, I don't think,
even though I knew something about this. And
so that was Nashville. And then those people,
the people that he trained in Nashville, went
on to become the leaders of the movement as it
went forward. John Lewis, Diane Nash, Bernard
Lafayette, you know, many of them. James Bevel.
And he also spoke a lot about how he tried to
include women. I mean, he recognized, you know,
years later, the sexism in the movement, but
he sort of instinctively knew Diane Nash was
a great person to put out front. And another
thing about his work in the movement and his
relationship to Dr. King is, you know, his main
goal up until probably Memphis, was to stay out
of the spotlight. He and Dr. King had talked
about it and said, you know, he's a strategist
and he's a trainer of other people and he's,
you know, an activist in that way. And that being
out front and getting arrested and all of that
would not allow him to do that work effectively.
And so they agreed that he would kind of stay
behind the scenes, but that does not mean he
was not involved. In fact, when they went to
Birmingham, they really agreed he's not going
to march, he's not going to do anything, he's
going to stay at the headquarters at the Gaston
Hotel. And when Ralph Abernathy and, you know,
Dr. King decided to get arrested in the letter
from the Birmingham jail, Reverend Lawson was
at the hotel with some of the other people in
the movement and, you know, working strategy.
And so I think that's another aspect that just
I think is fascinating when you read his account
of the movement. It's a different point of view.
Yeah, it's one of the many new things I learned
reading that book. And I've talked so much about
with Jim about his life. He was. Literally, at
the command center. He was the command center
in Birmingham. But you could read some of the
big, famous books on the civil rights movement,
and you wouldn't know Jim Lawson was there. And
I also didn't know that that was a deliberate
choice that he and Martin made all along. Right.
In many instances. I heard Andrew Young say a
similar thing about the choices that he and Dr.
King made about his role. So that's the thing.
Everybody knew that Martin Luther King was the
front man. That's a little bit of a diminishing
title, but the one who was going to be out front,
the icon. As with anything, no one does it alone.
Right. And these are the people around him. And
I think Reverend Lawson, you know, it's interesting.
We've we've had a couple of reviews and they've
said that one said that he was modest. The other
said he was humble. That's true. You know, I
didn't I didn't actually at first I was like,
what? You know, but then I realized, yeah, I
mean, that that was one of his superpowers. That
was one of his total unlike. Anybody, he had
a modesty that was amazing. Well, let's talk
about Memphis then, because we're coming near
the end. Tell us about that. Okay. Well, you
know, as I said, the third part of the book is
six chapters. It's 1968. It's one of the best
documented campaigns in the movement, and I say
that with absolute immodesty myself. Because
one of the reasons for that is my parents did
an oral history and collected all the film and
television. They were both journalists in the
moment. So it's one of the only oral histories
where the interviews, 150 interviews with people
involved in the strike were done starting in
May 1968 through 1972. And in the course of that,
they interviewed Reverend Lawson 13 times. My
father did. So there are sentences in this book
where half of his answer is to my father in 68
and half is to me in 2022, which is an amazing
personal aspect of it for me. But I think it
also gives me a vantage point with him and the
way we were able to dig down into Memphis and
the newspaper coverage locally. It wasn't good,
but it was a character in terms of covering the
strike accurately and telling the story of the
sanitation workers and their lives. But it was
a part of the story and the viciousness toward
Reverend Lawson, toward Dr. King. Of course,
now there's all these celebrations and commemorations
and everything. But that was part of the problem
with the way that they were covered in the media.
And that's obviously a problem we have today,
but it's a little different. part of it there.
So this strike was 1 ,300 sanitation workers,
black sanitation workers in Memphis, many of
whom had grown up or been born on plantations
and had escaped to the city for a better life.
And they get there, and the city treats them
just like the plantation owners. And they don't
have a working wage, a living wage. Many of them
were on welfare, as it was called back then.
And this was the same injustices. It was the
legacy of enslavement, and it was the Delta in
America, the Mississippi River Delta, and Memphis
was sort of the top of the Delta. And these men
came together, and there was one man who led
them, T .O. Jones, who started organizing a union,
and he started in 1962 or three, I believe. And
Reverend Lawson was right there. That was when
he came to Memphis and he met T .O. Jones. And
it was the first time Memphis was when the labor
movement and the civil rights movement came together.
The labor movement had been mostly white, right,
and mostly male and all of that. And in Memphis,
these 1 ,300 men just had it. They went on strike
a couple of days after two of their co -workers
were killed in a faulty truck. And it was because
of the city, neglect from the city, and it's
a whole story. It's a horrific story. Horrific
story. They were crushed in the back of a truck.
Because it was raining and they can't go anywhere
because they're black, so they hide in the back
of the trash dump. Well, no, it's that they ride
in the back of the truck. They ride in it. There
was an electrical shortage because of the rain,
and it crushed them to death. Pretty much. That's
the spark of it all, and that's why Dr. King...
Well, it was the last straw. The last straw,
of course, yes. I think the spark was... The
whole thing, yeah. So anyway, that strike happened.
It ended up being 65 days. It was two and a half
months. almost. It started in February, went
through March into April. Dr. King came in mid
-March, made a speech, and one of the most famous
lines of that speech for me was, he said, it
is a crime to live in this rich nation and receive
starvation wages. That kind of resonates today,
doesn't it? Can we talk about that speech for
a minute? Because that was another huge thing
that I learned in the book. And tell me what
you think of this is my take on it. Two things.
His staff doesn't want him to go to Memphis,
but Jim Lawson says you need to come to Memphis.
He's organizing. which is clearly going to be
the end, the Poor People's Campaign, bring all
poor people to Washington, D .C., that's going
to be a failure. That's not going to work. And
Jim Lawson says, you've got to come. We're having
this labor strike, so that's poor people. But
5 ,000 people are going to come and hear you.
Now, that had never happened before. He's a Nobel
Prize winner. I mean, I've read of stories of
Dr. King speaking in Memphis, like in 67, and
100 people would show up. And that sounds true
to me. You know, in rural Mississippi it was.
And then you tell the story that they're at the
airport and Jim plays a trick on them. I'm so
sorry, Martin. This is the – actually, the place
is Mason Temple in Memphis, which is one of the
biggest venues at that time that black people
can use in the South. Right. And he had told
Andy Young and Reverend – and Dr. King. He had
told them that there's going to be 10 ,000 people.
And then when they get to the airport to pick
them up for this event, they had already gone
to the place and people were already there. And
it was more than 10 ,000 people. But what they
said as a joke, they said, you know, we told
you it was going to be 10 ,000 people, but it's
not. And they both looked dejected. And King
and Young were like, oh, and, you know, sort
of disappointed. And then they said, no, it's
15 ,000 people. I think that was huge for Martin.
And he says spontaneously in the speech, well,
I'm coming back and we're going to make this
thing happen. But what I saw in your book, and
maybe it was through the tapes from your father,
is that Jim said it was really one of the greatest
emotional, spiritual evenings of his entire life.
It really was like being in the presence of Jesus.
15 ,000 people almost went into ecstasy over
nonviolence and cheering and we're going to end
this. And it was in Jim's words that he was telling
that. It was a true... community in Memphis that
gathered around. And really, that's what Jim
was the leader of, was the community that gathered
around these men. He was not a union leader.
The union leaders were here from Washington and
the ones in Memphis. But it was the beloved community.
It was their vision, right? And Martin Luther
King saw that. And that's why he wanted to be
here and wanted to come here and wanted to support
these men. And you say that his staff didn't
want him here. And that is the sort of classic
story. But it's not quite that simple, right?
I mean, Andrew Young was very clear that he should
come for that first speech in mid -March, you
know. And then when he came and he came back
and the march went wrong, that's when they said
we shouldn't go back. So the third time, they
didn't want him to go back that third time. The
first two, they were pretty much into it, you
know. That's not to say everybody agreed, but...
One of the things, you know, Reverend Lawson
said is when they were making plans, people disagreed.
So it's not like everybody said, yes, that's
what we're going. Martin Luther King said, we're
going to do this. And they said, yes. So the
idea that they had disagreements was actually
healthy. And, you know, one of the things I learned
was that Reverend Lawson didn't think they should
do the Chicago campaign, right? He didn't believe
in it. He didn't think they should leave and
go to an urban area. They shouldn't go to the
north. busy in the South and that's where the
worst part of it was. And yet when they went,
he cooperated, he went along and that's what
the staff did. So I don't think it's quite as
dramatic as people want to make it in that sense.
And I think Reverend Lawson said that too, you
know. Let's talk about nonviolence then, because
we're running to the end of our time. So Dr.
King is saying Jim is the greatest. teacher of
nonviolence in the world. And I think he was
that all his life. And this is the Nonviolent
Jesus podcast. And a lot of our conversations,
Jim and I were about the nonviolence of Jesus.
How do we practice that now? What does this all
mean? All these... many years after Dr. King
and all that historic nonviolent revolutionary
work. So I was looking for stuff in the book,
and I want to just ask you generally, what can
you tell us about active creative nonviolence
that you learned from working on this with Jim?
Yeah, I mean, I think that that's a really big
question, but I'm going to try and just circle
in, right? It's not so much maybe what I learned,
but what I think people will get from this book
is how do you live a life where you don't create
harm, where you do try to live leading with love,
right? And the example of Reverend James Morris
Lawson Jr. is pretty much the best one I've ever
seen. You know, he was able, he wasn't a saint.
Some people have said he was, but he was not
a saint. And he was not a sinner either, right?
He just, he lived his life, but he truly believed,
he truly believed that no one was better than
anyone else and no one deserved more than anyone
else or less than anyone else. And I think that
is, for me, Something I've been able to do more
in my life since I spent five years with talking
to Reverend Lawson about his life, right, and
writing with him about his life. I think that
the idea that, you know, and I know it's probably
a Christian idea. I am not a Christian, but I
know that it is a Christian idea. But I think
it's an idea that permeates a lot of religion
and a lot of people, frankly, who maybe aren't
religious like me. It's the idea, you know, the
idea that you do no harm, ahimsa, right, which
is the word from which nonviolence came for Gandhi.
And the idea that you live your life, the way
I put it is, I'd say if I had a spiritual guide
besides Reverend Lawson, it would be Fannie Lou
Hamer. And the idea that nobody's free till everybody's
free. And as a white... growing up in the South,
I really believe that's the case, and that's
how I live my life, and that's where Reverend
Lawson's life is such a great, it's so instructive,
but it's also inspiring, you know, and it...
kind of is about our better angels. Oh, that's
great. I said something religious. There. That
might be a good note to end on because it's also
true. It was so inspiring and you've given us
a great gift. I was really, and so I want to
ask you the last thing is you have any words
of encouragement for our listeners and in your
hope with this book that what people might take.
I just want to tell you and on live that. I was
shocked by the title of the book. And I just,
it was so fantastic that you came up with the
one word nonviolent. Because, folks, as I told
Emily about, I don't know, 14 years ago, I was
in L .A. And I called Jim. I said, I'm coming.
I'm going to be in L .A. I'm giving a speech.
But I'm taking you to lunch. And we're going
out to Malibu. I'm going to meet and introduce
you to all my rich movie star friends. He said,
no, John, we're going to Taco Bell in my neighborhood.
Okay, fine. It was Ash Wednesday, which is the
Catholic Day of Lent and, you know, repentance.
So we're sitting there, and two clergy people,
that's what you talk about. I said, Jim, but
just before we get into it, I want to know what
your plan is for Lent for 40 days. What's your
spiritual program? Which is what we do. And without
missing a beat, he said, And this wasn't that
long ago. I'm trying to be nonviolent, and I'm
going to work on it over the next 40 days. And
so then you come up with that. That's the real
Jim Lawson. He was always working on it. And
that's amazing. So any last thoughts for our
listeners? Well, I think Reverend Lawson got
to live 56 years beyond. Dr. King, they had the
same vision that we've talked about. And now
we're left with that, right? And the work continues.
I think all of us can take up that work and it's
hard and there are losses and evil and tyranny
can reign, but that's not an excuse to give up.
It's not an excuse to stop. It is an excuse sometimes
to take time and rest and tend to your inner
life, and that's something Reverend Lawson was
adamant about. He taught that to the Little Rock
Nine, and there's a story in there about that,
how he had to teach them how to have that inner
core of strength and know who they were so that
people can't take that away from you. So it's
a tough time right now, and it can be very discouraging.
It is very discouraging to see the world. But
there are lots of tough times. There have been
lots of tough times. One of the first revelations
that I had as I was doing this book was when
he said, I was asking him, like, what is nonviolence?
Come on. What is it? What is it? And he said,
we can't imitate the evil ways of our oppressors.
And for me, that was so important to understanding
nonviolence. It doesn't mean you don't get angry.
It doesn't mean you don't want to hit somebody.
But violence begets violence. Nonviolence builds
and can build a more loving, a more just, a more,
I guess, loving again. world. And that's really
what he stood for. And I'm going to ruin it by
saying the last line in the book, which he said
to me, and I made it the last line in the book.
I'm going to read it to you, if that's okay.
He said, we each must discover our own mile and
join the great visible and invisible community
of human beings who seek a country and a world
that does not yet exist. Well, thank you so much,
Emily. That's beautiful to end on. And so thank
you for the book. And all those listening, please
go and order it and get it. It's called Nonviolent,
the new memoir of Jim Lawson, co -authored by
my guest and friend, Emily Yellen. And thanks,
friends, for listening to this episode of the
Nonviolent Jesus podcast. And you can hear...
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See you next time.