WEBVTT 00:00:16.140 --> 00:00:19.320 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:19.320 --> 00:00:22.059 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:22.059 --> 00:00:25.699 with Emily Yellen, co -author of the big new 00:00:25.699 --> 00:00:28.960 memoir by the late Reverend Jim Lawson. This 00:00:28.960 --> 00:00:33.859 is a project of www .beatitudecenter .org, where 00:00:33.859 --> 00:00:35.880 you can find many other podcasts and regular 00:00:35.880 --> 00:00:39.119 Zoom programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and 00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:42.039 practicing nonviolence and working for a more 00:00:42.039 --> 00:00:45.420 just, more nonviolent world. So as we always 00:00:45.420 --> 00:00:47.240 do, I'd like to begin with just a little prayer. 00:00:47.340 --> 00:00:50.039 So I just invite you, wherever you are, just 00:00:50.039 --> 00:00:55.140 to take a deep breath and to relax and to recenter 00:00:55.140 --> 00:00:58.840 yourself. And together we enter into the presence 00:00:58.840 --> 00:01:03.100 of the God of peace and love who loves you personally 00:01:03.100 --> 00:01:08.420 and infinitely and everyone everywhere. And we 00:01:08.420 --> 00:01:11.219 welcome the nonviolent Jesus here with us. Just 00:01:11.219 --> 00:01:14.209 take a moment. to ask for whatever graces you 00:01:14.209 --> 00:01:17.849 need to carry on the work of peace and do God's 00:01:17.849 --> 00:01:25.400 will. God of peace, thank you for all the blessings 00:01:25.400 --> 00:01:27.900 of life and love and peace that you give us. 00:01:27.959 --> 00:01:31.219 Be with us now as we reflect together on your 00:01:31.219 --> 00:01:34.459 call to follow the nonviolent Jesus and work 00:01:34.459 --> 00:01:37.579 for a more nonviolent, more just world. Bless 00:01:37.579 --> 00:01:42.140 us, inspire us, disarm us, strengthen us, and 00:01:42.140 --> 00:01:44.819 send us out to do your will, to do our part in 00:01:44.819 --> 00:01:50.099 racism, poverty, greed, systemic injustice. fascism, 00:01:50.180 --> 00:01:53.159 war, nuclear weapons, and environmental destruction, 00:01:53.340 --> 00:01:57.200 that we might be your holy peacemakers and welcome 00:01:57.200 --> 00:02:00.879 your reign of universal love, nonviolence, justice, 00:02:01.219 --> 00:02:04.959 and peace on earth. Amen. Well, it's a great 00:02:04.959 --> 00:02:08.340 blessing to welcome today Emily Yellen to talk 00:02:08.340 --> 00:02:11.840 about her major new book, The Posthumous Memoir. 00:02:12.520 --> 00:02:14.979 of the great civil rights leader, Reverend Jim 00:02:14.979 --> 00:02:20.180 Lawson. The book comes out on February 17th from 00:02:20.180 --> 00:02:24.800 Random House, and I strongly urge everyone listening 00:02:24.800 --> 00:02:29.500 to order it wherever you get your books and jump 00:02:29.500 --> 00:02:32.580 into it. It's fantastic. It's called Nonviolent, 00:02:32.860 --> 00:02:37.819 My Life of Resistance, Agitation, and Love. As 00:02:37.819 --> 00:02:40.379 some of you may know, Jim Lawson was a very close 00:02:40.379 --> 00:02:42.759 friend of mine, and I knew him for 34 years. 00:02:42.819 --> 00:02:48.280 I met him in jail in 1991, as you do. And later 00:02:48.280 --> 00:02:51.000 he hired me and was my boss at the Fellowship 00:02:51.000 --> 00:02:53.740 of Reconciliation. We spoke around the country 00:02:53.740 --> 00:02:56.879 together, went to jail together many times. And 00:02:56.879 --> 00:02:59.800 for the last 10 or so years of his life, we talked 00:02:59.800 --> 00:03:02.639 every month on the phone, right up to his death. 00:03:03.500 --> 00:03:05.699 Emily Yellen is a journalist, writer, and producer, 00:03:05.900 --> 00:03:09.219 a longtime writer for the New York Times. I think 00:03:09.219 --> 00:03:12.439 she was in the office handling the South. And 00:03:12.439 --> 00:03:14.800 author of two other books, she produced a 10 00:03:14.800 --> 00:03:19.479 -part video series called 1300 Men, Memphis Strike 00:03:19.479 --> 00:03:22.669 68. which was for The Root, which you might want 00:03:22.669 --> 00:03:25.550 to look up. She first met Jim Lawson when she 00:03:25.550 --> 00:03:28.169 was five years old while attending elementary 00:03:28.169 --> 00:03:31.710 school in Memphis with Jim's oldest son, our 00:03:31.710 --> 00:03:35.330 friend John. Emily Yellen, welcome to the Nonviolent 00:03:35.330 --> 00:03:38.949 Jesus Podcast. Thank you so much. I'm glad to 00:03:38.949 --> 00:03:41.569 be here. Thank you so much for finishing this 00:03:41.569 --> 00:03:45.270 great mammoth book. You know how excited I am 00:03:45.270 --> 00:03:48.030 about it, because as I told you, I remember walking 00:03:48.030 --> 00:03:53.030 down a street with Jim Lawson in 1999 and lecturing 00:03:53.030 --> 00:03:56.629 him, as I always did, on why he needs to write 00:03:56.629 --> 00:03:59.129 his autobiography. And I was after him about 00:03:59.129 --> 00:04:02.259 that for the rest of his life. And here you are. 00:04:02.280 --> 00:04:06.840 You pulled it off. Yeah, it was a feat, but it 00:04:06.840 --> 00:04:11.469 was a wonderful feat. I feel very lucky, and 00:04:11.469 --> 00:04:15.909 when you tell me that, I think, wow, I am lucky, 00:04:16.029 --> 00:04:19.430 but I'm also lucky to know you and to hear your 00:04:19.430 --> 00:04:22.250 stories about him as well. Well, I remember about 00:04:22.250 --> 00:04:24.750 15 years ago, he called me and goes, okay, John, 00:04:24.930 --> 00:04:31.009 you be my co -author. But it's just so glad that 00:04:31.009 --> 00:04:35.759 you found him and he found you. Just friends 00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:39.019 in general, here's a little take. Reverend Jim 00:04:39.019 --> 00:04:42.740 Lawson was one of history's greatest teachers 00:04:42.740 --> 00:04:46.800 of nonviolence, period. One of Dr. King's best 00:04:46.800 --> 00:04:50.240 friends and advisors. And with the book, you'll 00:04:50.240 --> 00:04:52.670 go through... most of his life in the civil rights 00:04:52.670 --> 00:04:55.509 movement, how he directed the Nashville sit -ins, 00:04:55.589 --> 00:04:59.029 then the Freedom Rides, then the Birmingham Campaign, 00:04:59.310 --> 00:05:02.029 then the Meredith March, many other episodes, 00:05:02.069 --> 00:05:05.110 and most powerfully, how he organized or helped 00:05:05.110 --> 00:05:07.110 organize the Memphis Garbage Worker's Strike 00:05:07.110 --> 00:05:11.269 of 1968, in which he brought Dr. King to Memphis. 00:05:12.160 --> 00:05:14.500 Much against the will of the staff, Dr. King 00:05:14.500 --> 00:05:18.379 was killed. And as we all may know, Jim later, 00:05:18.620 --> 00:05:21.500 a few years later, moved to Los Angeles, where 00:05:21.500 --> 00:05:23.980 he lived for the rest of his life as the pastor 00:05:23.980 --> 00:05:27.920 of Holman Methodist Church. Jim was a Methodist 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:31.680 minister and loved being a Methodist minister. 00:05:33.579 --> 00:05:37.959 historic work in LA with the workers labor unions 00:05:37.959 --> 00:05:39.939 and immigrants and there should be many books 00:05:39.939 --> 00:05:43.379 written about just his LA life but he was teaching 00:05:43.379 --> 00:05:46.040 non -violence and organizing right up to the 00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:49.100 very end and I can testify to that because he 00:05:49.100 --> 00:05:52.120 was calling me with telling me what to do so 00:05:52.120 --> 00:05:55.160 it was great fun I thought Emily we could try 00:05:55.160 --> 00:05:58.129 to walk through his life and you could talk about 00:05:58.129 --> 00:06:01.389 various episodes or or however you want to approach 00:06:01.389 --> 00:06:03.889 this because there's so much your experience 00:06:03.889 --> 00:06:07.329 of writing the book but uh you knew jim for a 00:06:07.329 --> 00:06:12.790 long time um you know i think uh feel free to 00:06:12.790 --> 00:06:14.970 tell us about the writing the book as we go along 00:06:14.970 --> 00:06:20.970 here but um i think you know in my conversations 00:06:20.970 --> 00:06:24.250 with jim and my public work with jim and conversations 00:06:24.250 --> 00:06:28.910 um He always began by talking about this moment 00:06:28.910 --> 00:06:31.949 with his mother in the kitchen. Right. Always. 00:06:32.069 --> 00:06:34.569 Right. And then what people don't realize, which 00:06:34.569 --> 00:06:40.069 I sure knew, it's just so hard to take in that 00:06:40.069 --> 00:06:43.170 Jim went to prison, faced three years in prison 00:06:43.170 --> 00:06:47.490 for refusing to fight in the Korean War. This 00:06:47.490 --> 00:06:51.810 is so long before Dr. King. And then that he 00:06:51.810 --> 00:06:54.550 went and lived in India. I was telling you how 00:06:54.550 --> 00:06:56.889 he told me. You know, in the first month, he 00:06:56.889 --> 00:06:59.550 was hanging out with Nehru and Gandhi's best 00:06:59.550 --> 00:07:02.329 friends. I mean, is she the finger of providence 00:07:02.329 --> 00:07:04.350 there? Maybe you could talk a little bit about 00:07:04.350 --> 00:07:07.810 that and everything leading up to Dr. King. Well, 00:07:07.829 --> 00:07:13.050 I'll say this. The book, the subtitle is My Life 00:07:13.050 --> 00:07:16.810 of Resistance, Agitation, and Love. And that's 00:07:16.810 --> 00:07:19.949 very deliberate. There are four sections of the 00:07:19.949 --> 00:07:23.189 book. The first one is resistance, and it's his 00:07:23.189 --> 00:07:27.019 life. childhood and his life up until he met 00:07:27.019 --> 00:07:31.199 Dr. King in 1957 in Ohio at Oberlin College. 00:07:31.600 --> 00:07:36.040 So we'll start with that part. The second part 00:07:36.040 --> 00:07:41.420 is agitation, and that we made from 1958 to 1967. 00:07:42.060 --> 00:07:45.399 So it was much of what's called the Civil Rights 00:07:45.399 --> 00:07:50.500 Movement. And then 1968 and Memphis, the strike 00:07:50.500 --> 00:07:53.519 in Memphis and the whole year. has its own section. 00:07:53.660 --> 00:07:57.480 It's six chapters. And then the final part of 00:07:57.480 --> 00:08:00.959 the book is called Still Going On. And Still 00:08:00.959 --> 00:08:05.040 Going On was what Reverend, what Dr. King said 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:07.600 about Reverend Lawson the night before he was 00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:10.009 killed in the mountaintop speech. He said that 00:08:10.009 --> 00:08:12.829 Jim Lawson had always been fighting for his people. 00:08:12.889 --> 00:08:15.050 He got kicked out. He went to prison. He got 00:08:15.050 --> 00:08:17.629 kicked out of Vanderbilt, all fighting for the 00:08:17.629 --> 00:08:20.449 rights of his people. And he's still going on 00:08:20.449 --> 00:08:22.930 fighting for the rights of his people. And so 00:08:22.930 --> 00:08:26.790 we thought that that 50 years after King died, 00:08:26.949 --> 00:08:30.110 that he got to live and King did not. They were 00:08:30.110 --> 00:08:34.350 the same age. That's really still going on, and 00:08:34.350 --> 00:08:36.929 obviously the double meaning. Reverend Lawson 00:08:36.929 --> 00:08:39.500 was still going on. The same issues were still 00:08:39.500 --> 00:08:42.379 going on. So that's kind of an overview. But 00:08:42.379 --> 00:08:48.320 let's start with resistance, which the book has 00:08:48.320 --> 00:08:55.779 as 1928 when he was born to 1957. And the very 00:08:55.779 --> 00:08:59.580 first line in the book was... a story that he 00:08:59.580 --> 00:09:01.960 tells when he was four years old. The very first 00:09:01.960 --> 00:09:04.820 line of this book called Nonviolent is, I punched 00:09:04.820 --> 00:09:07.399 a white boy in his face, or I smacked a white 00:09:07.399 --> 00:09:10.399 boy in his face when I was four years old. And 00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:14.159 I asked him, what does this book need to be? 00:09:14.279 --> 00:09:16.799 And he says, I want it to show that people can 00:09:16.799 --> 00:09:21.000 transform, that places can transform, that nations 00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:26.539 can transform. And so starting with... this nonviolent 00:09:26.539 --> 00:09:31.019 icon punching somebody for calling him the N 00:09:31.019 --> 00:09:34.879 -word, that seemed like a good place to start. 00:09:35.159 --> 00:09:38.559 And that happened for a couple of years. His 00:09:38.559 --> 00:09:41.419 mother and his father, his father was a Methodist 00:09:41.419 --> 00:09:44.840 minister as well, immigrated from Canada, and 00:09:44.840 --> 00:09:47.179 his mother was from Jamaica. So he was the child 00:09:47.179 --> 00:09:50.960 of immigrants. And they had sort of a philosophical 00:09:50.960 --> 00:09:55.009 difference. His father believed it was okay to 00:09:55.009 --> 00:09:57.669 punch some people a couple of times and that 00:09:57.669 --> 00:10:00.929 violence had its place. But his mother, his mother 00:10:00.929 --> 00:10:03.429 is the one who said there has to be a better 00:10:03.429 --> 00:10:07.289 way. And so by the time, yeah, by the time he 00:10:07.289 --> 00:10:10.809 is about, we figured it out, it was probably 00:10:10.809 --> 00:10:14.909 fourth grade, something like that, or maybe a 00:10:14.909 --> 00:10:19.970 little older. Anyway, he had encountered another 00:10:19.970 --> 00:10:23.539 racist kid, apparently. Massillon, Ohio had a 00:10:23.539 --> 00:10:26.779 few of them. And, you know, again, calling him 00:10:26.779 --> 00:10:31.480 the N -word and other derogatory names. And he 00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:35.019 hit the kid again. And that time he hadn't told 00:10:35.019 --> 00:10:38.419 his parents and that time he did. And there's 00:10:38.419 --> 00:10:40.779 this moment where he comes into the kitchen in 00:10:40.779 --> 00:10:43.440 the afternoon after that had happened. And he 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:46.240 tells his mother who's cooking and she's looking 00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:48.759 at the stove. She's not even looking at him. 00:10:48.820 --> 00:10:52.759 And he describes this moment where. And she's 00:10:52.759 --> 00:10:56.779 talking, and he starts hearing a voice within 00:10:56.779 --> 00:10:59.980 himself, and he heard her, and it was a very 00:10:59.980 --> 00:11:08.500 magical or spiritual moment. And that's when 00:11:08.500 --> 00:11:12.159 his mother said, what good did that do, Jimmy? 00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:15.500 There has to be a better way. And that's really 00:11:15.500 --> 00:11:17.960 the turning point for him. And he said that from 00:11:17.960 --> 00:11:22.480 that moment on, he didn't ever hit. anybody again. 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:25.799 He didn't use violence. He was going to find 00:11:25.799 --> 00:11:28.539 a better way. And the rest of the book, in the 00:11:28.539 --> 00:11:32.039 rest of his life, is him doing that. And boy, 00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:34.299 did he do that, right? Thank you, Emily. That 00:11:34.299 --> 00:11:36.659 is so true. And he talked about that up right 00:11:36.659 --> 00:11:39.440 to the end with me and others, his mother. She 00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:43.240 must have been great, really great person. But 00:11:43.240 --> 00:11:47.039 yeah, she was very Christian and very much believed 00:11:47.039 --> 00:11:55.759 in the values that we attribute to Jesus. I am 00:11:55.759 --> 00:11:59.120 not by any means a Christian scholar or anything, 00:11:59.320 --> 00:12:03.120 but I even can see that what she was talking 00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:06.899 about is pure, and so much of what we hear and 00:12:06.899 --> 00:12:10.980 people take is not. And that's what I think one 00:12:10.980 --> 00:12:12.840 of the things, I know we're going to get into 00:12:12.840 --> 00:12:15.940 this, but one of the things that really just 00:12:15.940 --> 00:12:19.080 stunned me all the time about Reverend Lawson 00:12:19.080 --> 00:12:24.429 was, his conviction, but also his consistency, 00:12:24.470 --> 00:12:28.289 and not a sort of blind consistency, but it came 00:12:28.289 --> 00:12:31.190 from within. It came from a deep, deep conviction, 00:12:31.409 --> 00:12:37.450 you know, a deep conviction to love, real love, 00:12:37.610 --> 00:12:40.809 you know? Can you say a word about the... Yeah, 00:12:40.830 --> 00:12:43.590 go ahead. A word about the prison that I want 00:12:43.590 --> 00:12:48.179 to hear in India. Yeah, yeah. And so... It followed 00:12:48.179 --> 00:12:53.059 him, and it flows through his story in many ways. 00:12:53.440 --> 00:13:00.360 He went to college. He resisted the draft, actually. 00:13:00.460 --> 00:13:06.789 He didn't resist the war. saying when he sent 00:13:06.789 --> 00:13:09.590 back his draft card and didn't cooperate with 00:13:09.590 --> 00:13:12.549 the Selective Service was that he didn't believe 00:13:12.549 --> 00:13:15.149 the Selective Service in the Selective Service. 00:13:15.429 --> 00:13:18.909 He believed it was racist and that it did not, 00:13:18.929 --> 00:13:23.330 you know, that it was wrong. And so he refused 00:13:23.330 --> 00:13:25.490 to cooperate. He could have gotten an exemption. 00:13:25.690 --> 00:13:27.629 He could have become a conscientious objector. 00:13:27.649 --> 00:13:30.049 He didn't do that. He did this in the same way 00:13:30.049 --> 00:13:33.429 that Bayard Rustin had done in World War II. 00:13:34.029 --> 00:13:37.669 And so he was made an example, and he was sent 00:13:37.669 --> 00:13:42.610 to federal prison. And for those of us who are 00:13:42.610 --> 00:13:47.110 writing with and about him, he kept journals 00:13:47.110 --> 00:13:50.529 in prison, very detailed and very earnest, if 00:13:50.529 --> 00:13:54.509 I may say so. Yeah, that was Jim. I read some 00:13:54.509 --> 00:13:56.870 of them to him, and it's when you're 22 years 00:13:56.870 --> 00:14:02.419 old, and he laughed at how earnest he was. But 00:14:02.419 --> 00:14:04.799 at one point he made a declaration and it had 00:14:04.799 --> 00:14:07.500 all these whereas, whereas, whereases in them. 00:14:08.259 --> 00:14:11.700 But in one of the most stunning documents that 00:14:11.700 --> 00:14:14.460 I think we found in all of that was there was 00:14:14.460 --> 00:14:18.360 a woman that he was friends with and he wanted 00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:20.299 it to be more than friends and he wrote her letters 00:14:20.299 --> 00:14:22.919 from prison and she apparently kept them. And 00:14:22.919 --> 00:14:25.659 then she donated them to the same library where 00:14:25.659 --> 00:14:29.870 his papers are at Vanderbilt. One of the letters 00:14:29.870 --> 00:14:33.870 from 1951, he's telling her, I don't know why 00:14:33.870 --> 00:14:36.330 there can't be a movement in America, in the 00:14:36.330 --> 00:14:39.730 South, at the heart of where racism lives, that 00:14:39.730 --> 00:14:42.769 black people would come together and rise up 00:14:42.769 --> 00:14:44.690 and there would have to be a charismatic leader, 00:14:44.950 --> 00:14:47.409 but I know that I'm going to be part of this. 00:14:47.549 --> 00:14:52.009 And he said that in 1951. He knew. He was a genius. 00:14:52.149 --> 00:14:55.330 He kept saying it. He kept saying it. Yes, he 00:14:55.330 --> 00:14:59.759 did. And then... He got out of prison after a 00:14:59.759 --> 00:15:02.360 year. He was supposed to serve three years. And 00:15:02.360 --> 00:15:04.500 one of the conditions was he had to go abroad, 00:15:04.580 --> 00:15:06.620 and the Methodist church promised they would 00:15:06.620 --> 00:15:09.279 send him on a mission, so he went to India. Amazing. 00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:12.799 And he was in India, and as you said, he met 00:15:12.799 --> 00:15:14.879 with Nehru, he met with all the people who had 00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:18.179 worked with Gandhi, and he was already very committed 00:15:18.179 --> 00:15:20.360 to nonviolence. He had been a member of FOR, 00:15:20.779 --> 00:15:23.220 the Fellowship of Reconciliation, as you know. 00:15:24.759 --> 00:15:27.600 And, you know, just coincidentally, freshman 00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:30.960 year at Baldwin Wallace College in Ohio, he met 00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:34.120 A .J. Mustie. And then he had worked with Bayard 00:15:34.120 --> 00:15:37.840 Rustin and Jim Farmer in F .O .R. things and 00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:41.500 in Methodist student movement. And so all of 00:15:41.500 --> 00:15:43.940 these people and places kind of just kept appearing 00:15:43.940 --> 00:15:47.320 before him. And he kept, you know, embracing 00:15:47.320 --> 00:15:51.320 them. And he gets to India and he does all that. 00:15:52.700 --> 00:15:55.600 He also travels through Africa at the time and 00:15:55.600 --> 00:15:58.679 meets leaders of the independence movement, which 00:15:58.679 --> 00:16:02.240 was amazing. He's so young, too. Right, right. 00:16:02.419 --> 00:16:07.139 He's in his 20s, and it was mid -1950s. And if 00:16:07.139 --> 00:16:09.700 you ask Reverend Lawson, if you would ask him, 00:16:09.759 --> 00:16:11.659 you know, when did you meet Martin Luther King, 00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:17.080 the actual answer most of us would say is 1957 00:16:17.080 --> 00:16:20.320 at Oberlin College. But he would always say, 00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:25.580 I met him in 1956 on the pages of the Nagpur 00:16:25.580 --> 00:16:28.100 Times. He would never say that he met him in 00:16:28.100 --> 00:16:32.759 1957. He would say, in 1957, that was when I 00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:35.700 first shook hands with him. But he said, you 00:16:35.700 --> 00:16:38.200 know, he almost felt like he knew him before 00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:42.740 he met him, I think. And he describes that moment 00:16:42.740 --> 00:16:46.740 when he's in India and he's just... been out. 00:16:46.779 --> 00:16:48.940 He was a coach, a football coach in India. And 00:16:48.940 --> 00:16:50.559 he'd been out playing football that morning, 00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:52.840 took a shower, came in, had breakfast and was 00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:55.700 at his desk. And he takes the Nagpur Times and 00:16:55.700 --> 00:16:58.320 there's an article about the Montgomery bus boycott 00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:01.820 and this man named Martin Luther King. And he 00:17:01.820 --> 00:17:05.180 started dancing and whooping and hollering because 00:17:05.180 --> 00:17:07.759 what he had been dreaming of and talking of and 00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:10.529 knowing he was going to be part of. This was 00:17:10.529 --> 00:17:12.670 it. This was it. And he was so excited. One of 00:17:12.670 --> 00:17:14.690 his colleagues came in and said, are you okay? 00:17:14.930 --> 00:17:17.890 And he said, yes, yes. And he was thrilled. And 00:17:17.890 --> 00:17:20.910 then he goes back and he decides to go to Oberlin 00:17:20.910 --> 00:17:25.809 to get a graduate degree, divinity degree. And 00:17:25.809 --> 00:17:28.089 Martin Luther King happens to come to Oberlin 00:17:28.089 --> 00:17:31.190 and do a speech about the Montgomery movement 00:17:31.190 --> 00:17:37.460 campaign. And they meet at lunch. I said when 00:17:37.460 --> 00:17:39.779 I was writing this, I want readers, when they 00:17:39.779 --> 00:17:42.839 get to that point, instead of saying, wow, how 00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:46.079 lucky was James Lawson to meet Martin Luther 00:17:46.079 --> 00:17:49.299 King, I want people to say, wow, how lucky was 00:17:49.299 --> 00:17:51.579 Martin Luther King to meet Reverend James Lawson? 00:17:52.180 --> 00:17:57.200 No, it's critical, Emily, because that is the 00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:00.019 way it was, because Martin Luther King didn't... 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:02.680 know anything except he was a genius and brilliant 00:18:02.680 --> 00:18:05.680 and he loved A .J. Mostino, but he slept with 00:18:05.680 --> 00:18:09.720 a gun until Bayard Rustin showed up. So he gets 00:18:09.720 --> 00:18:12.759 to meet Jim Lawson, who's already done time in 00:18:12.759 --> 00:18:16.180 prison, who knows Gandhi's best friend, who's 00:18:16.180 --> 00:18:19.480 way ahead of him, really, in nonviolence. And 00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:22.240 it was like that till Dr. King died, I think. 00:18:22.779 --> 00:18:25.920 I think Jim was Martin's mentor. And my question 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:29.529 for you is, just talk about... the two of them 00:18:29.529 --> 00:18:32.349 together over the course of their lives, Martin 00:18:32.349 --> 00:18:34.990 Luther King and Jim Lawson, in any way you want. 00:18:35.150 --> 00:18:36.930 Because that's the heart of the book, really, 00:18:37.089 --> 00:18:39.250 and Jim and how he changed the world. I think 00:18:39.250 --> 00:18:42.369 it is, but I think it's also, yeah, no, well, 00:18:42.470 --> 00:18:46.910 I will. So I'll answer your question. I think 00:18:46.910 --> 00:18:50.009 that there was a friendship there that was very 00:18:50.009 --> 00:18:53.109 deep. And I know people, you know, Martin Luther 00:18:53.109 --> 00:18:55.089 King had friends. He had a lot of friends and 00:18:55.089 --> 00:18:57.890 he had a lot of colleagues. And Jim would never 00:18:57.890 --> 00:19:01.029 claim necessarily to be in his inner, inner circle, 00:19:01.130 --> 00:19:03.069 you know, and he didn't live in Atlanta and he 00:19:03.069 --> 00:19:06.210 wasn't a Baptist preacher. Right. Right. And 00:19:06.210 --> 00:19:10.049 he wasn't from the South. However, his son, John, 00:19:10.190 --> 00:19:12.710 my friend called him. I think he said it best. 00:19:12.769 --> 00:19:15.569 He said they were spiritual brothers because 00:19:15.569 --> 00:19:19.630 they both were third generation clergy. They 00:19:19.630 --> 00:19:23.029 both believed in nonviolence. They were the same 00:19:23.029 --> 00:19:26.599 age. They were born five months apart. And they 00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:31.559 both had this deep commitment to nonviolence, 00:19:31.559 --> 00:19:34.779 to the nonviolent direct action, to nonviolent 00:19:34.779 --> 00:19:37.819 direct action, and that living it as a way of 00:19:37.819 --> 00:19:42.579 life was true for both of them. And it was sort 00:19:42.579 --> 00:19:46.759 of their North Star, I think, in terms of how 00:19:46.759 --> 00:19:49.059 to conduct themselves and how to conduct the 00:19:49.059 --> 00:19:51.779 movement. And I think the beloved community... 00:19:52.170 --> 00:19:54.789 You know, the belief in that vision also was 00:19:54.789 --> 00:19:58.630 a North Star. And that's where they really met 00:19:58.630 --> 00:20:03.650 in their minds and their hearts. And that guided 00:20:03.650 --> 00:20:06.009 them. But I also, one of the first questions 00:20:06.009 --> 00:20:08.549 I asked him when I first interviewed him was, 00:20:08.650 --> 00:20:12.950 you know, what was he like? And Reverend Lawson 00:20:12.950 --> 00:20:14.829 started talking about how they would play touch 00:20:14.829 --> 00:20:19.399 football together and how they both loved. great 00:20:19.399 --> 00:20:21.539 food that they had been brought up with. He talked 00:20:21.539 --> 00:20:26.759 about the retreat in South Carolina, St. Helena 00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:30.339 Island, Frogmore, and that there was this shrimp. 00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:32.319 When they would go to that retreat center, there 00:20:32.319 --> 00:20:34.779 was this shrimp that was caught that morning, 00:20:34.839 --> 00:20:37.960 and it was something called Frogmore stew. And 00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:40.319 they would eat that, and they would eat it every 00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:42.059 night they were there, you know, just because 00:20:42.059 --> 00:20:45.019 it was so good, and they loved that. He told 00:20:45.019 --> 00:20:48.079 one time about a touch football game where Martin 00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:50.259 Luther King was picking and somebody else was 00:20:50.259 --> 00:20:52.460 picking. And Martin Luther King, the first person 00:20:52.460 --> 00:20:54.559 he picked was Jim Lawson. He said, I want Jim 00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:57.619 Lawson on my side. Because Jim, Reverend Lawson 00:20:57.619 --> 00:21:00.579 was an athlete, you know, and so was King. And 00:21:00.579 --> 00:21:02.400 they both loved swimming. They loved football. 00:21:02.819 --> 00:21:05.200 And in his childhood, you see him, you know, 00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:07.720 doing all the sports. And he was a coach in India. 00:21:08.059 --> 00:21:12.660 So I think they shared a lot, you know, and they 00:21:12.660 --> 00:21:17.079 shared. a real vision together. Yes. And that's 00:21:17.079 --> 00:21:18.980 what's so beautiful, I think, throughout the 00:21:18.980 --> 00:21:24.299 book is it keeps reemerging. So Jim, I mean, 00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:27.279 really could say for Dr. King, Ralph Abernathy 00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:31.339 was his closest friend, but maybe Harry Belafonte, 00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:34.299 who, you know, got the kids to school and did 00:21:34.299 --> 00:21:39.420 miracles. And maybe Stanley Levinson was the 00:21:39.420 --> 00:21:44.070 white New Yorker who was really important. Jim 00:21:44.070 --> 00:21:47.529 was, if it's possible, more committed to nonviolence 00:21:47.529 --> 00:21:50.529 than Martin. I mean, they were absolutely the 00:21:50.529 --> 00:21:53.250 same in that. And I think more than anybody else 00:21:53.250 --> 00:21:56.009 in the movement, that's where Martin found a 00:21:56.009 --> 00:22:00.400 peer in Jim Lawson. total act of nonviolence. 00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:05.640 So his statement was, in 1957, Jim Lawson is 00:22:05.640 --> 00:22:09.539 the greatest theorist and strategist of nonviolence 00:22:09.539 --> 00:22:12.299 in the world. And Jim remained so until his end. 00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:14.960 Now, there's too much to talk about, but I want 00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:16.960 to walk through some of these things and then 00:22:16.960 --> 00:22:19.660 let you say whatever, some of these moments and 00:22:19.660 --> 00:22:23.339 say whatever you want. So one of the greatest 00:22:23.339 --> 00:22:27.490 nonviolent campaigns... in the movement, and 00:22:27.490 --> 00:22:30.609 maybe in certainly U .S. history, was the organizing 00:22:30.609 --> 00:22:34.289 Jim did in Nashville, which led to the sit -ins. 00:22:34.450 --> 00:22:38.089 Now, the Greensboro kids sat in first, but the 00:22:38.089 --> 00:22:40.849 Nashville thing was a very thought -out, structured 00:22:40.849 --> 00:22:44.730 movement, and he trained Diane Nash, John Lewis, 00:22:44.890 --> 00:22:47.509 Bernard Leffia, and many others. So there's that. 00:22:47.750 --> 00:22:50.430 And then... You know, Jim is trying to hire Dr. 00:22:50.650 --> 00:22:53.130 King. He gets on the staff of the FOR. And the 00:22:53.130 --> 00:22:55.349 next thing you know, he's organizing Freedom 00:22:55.349 --> 00:23:00.049 Rides, Birmingham. Jim goes to Vietnam at one 00:23:00.049 --> 00:23:03.630 point, way before Dr. King. On a mission. Yeah, 00:23:03.630 --> 00:23:08.109 but still. On a peace trip. Yeah. And then also 00:23:08.109 --> 00:23:11.069 the Meredith March. So, like, for example, I've 00:23:11.069 --> 00:23:13.670 been studying. So I want you to talk about Jim 00:23:13.670 --> 00:23:17.549 and the movement. Well, let me start with Nashville. 00:23:18.759 --> 00:23:21.839 He gets to Nashville. That's where he decided 00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:26.720 to come. When he met Dr. King at Oberlin, Dr. 00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:29.220 King said, what are you doing? And he said, well, 00:23:29.220 --> 00:23:30.740 I'm going to finish my degree, and then I might 00:23:30.740 --> 00:23:33.299 go get a PhD. And he goes, no, we need you now. 00:23:33.380 --> 00:23:37.640 Come south now. And Jim Lawson dropped out of 00:23:37.640 --> 00:23:40.619 Oberlin and moved to Nashville and was hired 00:23:40.619 --> 00:23:44.319 by FOR. And then he enrolled in Vanderbilt's 00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:45.740 Divinity School, and he was one of the first 00:23:45.740 --> 00:23:51.099 black students at Vanderbilt. And at a certain 00:23:51.099 --> 00:23:53.740 point after traveling all over the South, there 00:23:53.740 --> 00:23:58.980 was such a strategy. People act like the campaigns 00:23:58.980 --> 00:24:01.799 just came up spontaneously and were reactive, 00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:04.480 but really they were planned. And Montgomery, 00:24:04.759 --> 00:24:07.519 but they were trying to do another Montgomery. 00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:09.460 They had to show that they could do it again, 00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:12.039 that they could desegregate somewhere else, right? 00:24:12.200 --> 00:24:15.500 And so Jim traveled all over, Reverend Lawson 00:24:15.500 --> 00:24:19.089 traveled all over the South. for almost two years 00:24:19.089 --> 00:24:22.410 and concluded that Nashville was the place, the 00:24:22.410 --> 00:24:25.410 place he was living. There was already an active 00:24:25.410 --> 00:24:29.710 branch of the SCLC called the Nashville Conference, 00:24:30.509 --> 00:24:35.630 Christian Leadership Conference. And there were 00:24:35.630 --> 00:24:38.049 other people there who were already committed, 00:24:38.150 --> 00:24:43.170 and they had four colleges, you know, three black 00:24:43.170 --> 00:24:48.859 colleges. He felt it was the right place. And 00:24:48.859 --> 00:24:51.900 so then they started a very important part of 00:24:51.900 --> 00:24:54.779 nonviolent direct action, which people don't 00:24:54.779 --> 00:24:57.579 really think about, which is they spent six months 00:24:57.579 --> 00:25:00.519 listening to the people who lived in Nashville 00:25:00.519 --> 00:25:04.839 who were living through segregation. And mostly 00:25:04.839 --> 00:25:08.779 the women of Nashville who told them, you know, 00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:11.880 the worst part is when we go shopping. And we're 00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:14.299 downtown with our children. And if we want to 00:25:14.299 --> 00:25:17.180 buy our child some shoes, they can't try them 00:25:17.180 --> 00:25:20.099 on. We have to buy the shoes, ride the bus home, 00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:22.380 put them on. And then if they don't fit, we have 00:25:22.380 --> 00:25:24.859 to come back. We have to get another pair of 00:25:24.859 --> 00:25:27.460 shoes. We have to come home on the bus, et cetera. 00:25:27.799 --> 00:25:30.980 And then, you know, obviously bathrooms were 00:25:30.980 --> 00:25:33.859 an issue. And then if they wanted, you know, 00:25:33.859 --> 00:25:35.759 they'd been downtown shopping and they had their 00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:38.559 kids and they were in a department store. There 00:25:38.559 --> 00:25:41.579 was one that had. play area for the kids and 00:25:41.579 --> 00:25:44.000 a lunch counter where they could sit and the 00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:46.220 women could sit and have coffee, the wives, the 00:25:46.220 --> 00:25:48.839 mothers. And black women couldn't do that. The 00:25:48.839 --> 00:25:50.619 black kids couldn't do. They had to tell their 00:25:50.619 --> 00:25:54.359 kids, you know, you can't do that. And why? And 00:25:54.359 --> 00:25:58.660 so those were the kinds of stories that spurred 00:25:58.660 --> 00:26:02.480 them. And so it wasn't obviously just about sitting 00:26:02.480 --> 00:26:05.579 at a lunch counter. You know, it was much more. 00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:09.089 And that those stories. are when they decided 00:26:09.089 --> 00:26:13.009 as a group that we're going to do this. And that's 00:26:13.009 --> 00:26:15.210 when they started organizing and recruiting students 00:26:15.210 --> 00:26:18.910 from all over the city to come and learn about 00:26:18.910 --> 00:26:22.210 nonviolent direct action. And you mentioned John 00:26:22.210 --> 00:26:25.490 Lewis. Diane Nash was a student at Fisk. She 00:26:25.490 --> 00:26:27.890 was from Chicago. And coming to Nashville, she 00:26:27.890 --> 00:26:30.589 experienced segregation for the first time, really, 00:26:30.650 --> 00:26:34.490 in her daily life. And she was outraged, but 00:26:34.490 --> 00:26:36.490 she didn't really believe in nonviolence. She 00:26:36.490 --> 00:26:38.740 just... said it was the only game in town, so 00:26:38.740 --> 00:26:42.940 I went. But I think that's where Reverend Lawson 00:26:42.940 --> 00:26:47.759 really brought people in, but he also got to 00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:51.880 their hearts and got to them in a way that, I 00:26:51.880 --> 00:26:54.440 don't know the words for it, but that changed 00:26:54.440 --> 00:26:57.559 people, transformed people, and that transformation 00:26:57.559 --> 00:27:02.319 element that he was trying to do all over the 00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:06.339 place. And so I think that's an important thing 00:27:06.339 --> 00:27:10.079 to know is that none of this sprung up spontaneously 00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:13.680 in reaction. It was planned. It was strategic. 00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:16.660 In many ways, and Reverend Lawson eventually 00:27:16.660 --> 00:27:19.720 said this, the planning and the strategy and 00:27:19.720 --> 00:27:23.440 the training and the equipping, it was equivalent 00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:26.759 to the military, but it was the opposite means 00:27:26.759 --> 00:27:29.940 and goals and everything of the military. And 00:27:29.940 --> 00:27:32.460 so I think that was a really important point 00:27:32.460 --> 00:27:36.569 that I really... Didn't know, I don't think, 00:27:36.569 --> 00:27:40.410 even though I knew something about this. And 00:27:40.410 --> 00:27:42.529 so that was Nashville. And then those people, 00:27:42.670 --> 00:27:45.890 the people that he trained in Nashville, went 00:27:45.890 --> 00:27:49.109 on to become the leaders of the movement as it 00:27:49.109 --> 00:27:51.970 went forward. John Lewis, Diane Nash, Bernard 00:27:51.970 --> 00:27:57.109 Lafayette, you know, many of them. James Bevel. 00:27:58.440 --> 00:28:02.000 And he also spoke a lot about how he tried to 00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:06.200 include women. I mean, he recognized, you know, 00:28:06.200 --> 00:28:09.819 years later, the sexism in the movement, but 00:28:09.819 --> 00:28:13.960 he sort of instinctively knew Diane Nash was 00:28:13.960 --> 00:28:18.279 a great person to put out front. And another 00:28:18.279 --> 00:28:21.279 thing about his work in the movement and his 00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:24.740 relationship to Dr. King is, you know, his main 00:28:24.740 --> 00:28:29.230 goal up until probably Memphis, was to stay out 00:28:29.230 --> 00:28:31.750 of the spotlight. He and Dr. King had talked 00:28:31.750 --> 00:28:34.069 about it and said, you know, he's a strategist 00:28:34.069 --> 00:28:37.710 and he's a trainer of other people and he's, 00:28:37.710 --> 00:28:41.529 you know, an activist in that way. And that being 00:28:41.529 --> 00:28:44.289 out front and getting arrested and all of that 00:28:44.289 --> 00:28:47.589 would not allow him to do that work effectively. 00:28:47.910 --> 00:28:50.609 And so they agreed that he would kind of stay 00:28:50.609 --> 00:28:53.049 behind the scenes, but that does not mean he 00:28:53.049 --> 00:28:55.609 was not involved. In fact, when they went to 00:28:55.609 --> 00:28:58.259 Birmingham, they really agreed he's not going 00:28:58.259 --> 00:28:59.640 to march, he's not going to do anything, he's 00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:02.220 going to stay at the headquarters at the Gaston 00:29:02.220 --> 00:29:06.700 Hotel. And when Ralph Abernathy and, you know, 00:29:06.700 --> 00:29:09.759 Dr. King decided to get arrested in the letter 00:29:09.759 --> 00:29:11.960 from the Birmingham jail, Reverend Lawson was 00:29:11.960 --> 00:29:15.220 at the hotel with some of the other people in 00:29:15.220 --> 00:29:17.259 the movement and, you know, working strategy. 00:29:18.089 --> 00:29:21.109 And so I think that's another aspect that just 00:29:21.109 --> 00:29:23.690 I think is fascinating when you read his account 00:29:23.690 --> 00:29:26.430 of the movement. It's a different point of view. 00:29:26.609 --> 00:29:28.910 Yeah, it's one of the many new things I learned 00:29:28.910 --> 00:29:31.650 reading that book. And I've talked so much about 00:29:31.650 --> 00:29:39.000 with Jim about his life. He was. Literally, at 00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:41.259 the command center. He was the command center 00:29:41.259 --> 00:29:43.480 in Birmingham. But you could read some of the 00:29:43.480 --> 00:29:45.859 big, famous books on the civil rights movement, 00:29:45.880 --> 00:29:49.039 and you wouldn't know Jim Lawson was there. And 00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:52.240 I also didn't know that that was a deliberate 00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:57.099 choice that he and Martin made all along. Right. 00:29:57.160 --> 00:30:02.289 In many instances. I heard Andrew Young say a 00:30:02.289 --> 00:30:04.789 similar thing about the choices that he and Dr. 00:30:04.970 --> 00:30:08.750 King made about his role. So that's the thing. 00:30:08.829 --> 00:30:11.529 Everybody knew that Martin Luther King was the 00:30:11.529 --> 00:30:14.930 front man. That's a little bit of a diminishing 00:30:14.930 --> 00:30:17.470 title, but the one who was going to be out front, 00:30:17.569 --> 00:30:21.539 the icon. As with anything, no one does it alone. 00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:24.799 Right. And these are the people around him. And 00:30:24.799 --> 00:30:26.799 I think Reverend Lawson, you know, it's interesting. 00:30:26.920 --> 00:30:29.019 We've we've had a couple of reviews and they've 00:30:29.019 --> 00:30:31.880 said that one said that he was modest. The other 00:30:31.880 --> 00:30:35.160 said he was humble. That's true. You know, I 00:30:35.160 --> 00:30:38.079 didn't I didn't actually at first I was like, 00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:41.279 what? You know, but then I realized, yeah, I 00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:43.559 mean, that that was one of his superpowers. That 00:30:43.559 --> 00:30:47.720 was one of his total unlike. Anybody, he had 00:30:47.720 --> 00:30:51.140 a modesty that was amazing. Well, let's talk 00:30:51.140 --> 00:30:53.680 about Memphis then, because we're coming near 00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:59.880 the end. Tell us about that. Okay. Well, you 00:30:59.880 --> 00:31:02.000 know, as I said, the third part of the book is 00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:05.440 six chapters. It's 1968. It's one of the best 00:31:05.440 --> 00:31:08.380 documented campaigns in the movement, and I say 00:31:08.380 --> 00:31:13.509 that with absolute immodesty myself. Because 00:31:13.509 --> 00:31:17.630 one of the reasons for that is my parents did 00:31:17.630 --> 00:31:21.609 an oral history and collected all the film and 00:31:21.609 --> 00:31:24.250 television. They were both journalists in the 00:31:24.250 --> 00:31:26.289 moment. So it's one of the only oral histories 00:31:26.289 --> 00:31:30.250 where the interviews, 150 interviews with people 00:31:30.250 --> 00:31:32.750 involved in the strike were done starting in 00:31:32.750 --> 00:31:37.089 May 1968 through 1972. And in the course of that, 00:31:37.190 --> 00:31:39.650 they interviewed Reverend Lawson 13 times. My 00:31:39.650 --> 00:31:42.630 father did. So there are sentences in this book 00:31:42.630 --> 00:31:46.130 where half of his answer is to my father in 68 00:31:46.130 --> 00:31:49.970 and half is to me in 2022, which is an amazing 00:31:49.970 --> 00:31:53.329 personal aspect of it for me. But I think it 00:31:53.329 --> 00:31:57.210 also gives me a vantage point with him and the 00:31:57.210 --> 00:31:59.869 way we were able to dig down into Memphis and 00:31:59.869 --> 00:32:03.950 the newspaper coverage locally. It wasn't good, 00:32:04.109 --> 00:32:06.950 but it was a character in terms of covering the 00:32:06.950 --> 00:32:09.670 strike accurately and telling the story of the 00:32:09.670 --> 00:32:13.049 sanitation workers and their lives. But it was 00:32:13.049 --> 00:32:17.009 a part of the story and the viciousness toward 00:32:17.009 --> 00:32:19.190 Reverend Lawson, toward Dr. King. Of course, 00:32:19.210 --> 00:32:21.589 now there's all these celebrations and commemorations 00:32:21.589 --> 00:32:24.630 and everything. But that was part of the problem 00:32:24.630 --> 00:32:27.250 with the way that they were covered in the media. 00:32:27.410 --> 00:32:29.589 And that's obviously a problem we have today, 00:32:29.690 --> 00:32:32.440 but it's a little different. part of it there. 00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:37.599 So this strike was 1 ,300 sanitation workers, 00:32:37.799 --> 00:32:39.839 black sanitation workers in Memphis, many of 00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:42.839 whom had grown up or been born on plantations 00:32:42.839 --> 00:32:45.119 and had escaped to the city for a better life. 00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:47.660 And they get there, and the city treats them 00:32:47.660 --> 00:32:51.359 just like the plantation owners. And they don't 00:32:51.359 --> 00:32:55.200 have a working wage, a living wage. Many of them 00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:58.559 were on welfare, as it was called back then. 00:32:59.759 --> 00:33:03.599 And this was the same injustices. It was the 00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:07.279 legacy of enslavement, and it was the Delta in 00:33:07.279 --> 00:33:11.099 America, the Mississippi River Delta, and Memphis 00:33:11.099 --> 00:33:14.599 was sort of the top of the Delta. And these men 00:33:14.599 --> 00:33:17.819 came together, and there was one man who led 00:33:17.819 --> 00:33:23.339 them, T .O. Jones, who started organizing a union, 00:33:23.480 --> 00:33:27.819 and he started in 1962 or three, I believe. And 00:33:27.819 --> 00:33:29.940 Reverend Lawson was right there. That was when 00:33:29.940 --> 00:33:33.099 he came to Memphis and he met T .O. Jones. And 00:33:33.099 --> 00:33:36.480 it was the first time Memphis was when the labor 00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:39.359 movement and the civil rights movement came together. 00:33:39.460 --> 00:33:42.420 The labor movement had been mostly white, right, 00:33:42.599 --> 00:33:47.000 and mostly male and all of that. And in Memphis, 00:33:47.140 --> 00:33:53.859 these 1 ,300 men just had it. They went on strike 00:33:53.859 --> 00:33:56.920 a couple of days after two of their co -workers 00:33:56.920 --> 00:34:00.059 were killed in a faulty truck. And it was because 00:34:00.059 --> 00:34:02.779 of the city, neglect from the city, and it's 00:34:02.779 --> 00:34:06.740 a whole story. It's a horrific story. Horrific 00:34:06.740 --> 00:34:09.280 story. They were crushed in the back of a truck. 00:34:09.460 --> 00:34:11.760 Because it was raining and they can't go anywhere 00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:14.239 because they're black, so they hide in the back 00:34:14.239 --> 00:34:17.860 of the trash dump. Well, no, it's that they ride 00:34:17.860 --> 00:34:21.179 in the back of the truck. They ride in it. There 00:34:21.179 --> 00:34:23.559 was an electrical shortage because of the rain, 00:34:23.659 --> 00:34:27.559 and it crushed them to death. Pretty much. That's 00:34:27.559 --> 00:34:30.860 the spark of it all, and that's why Dr. King... 00:34:30.860 --> 00:34:33.800 Well, it was the last straw. The last straw, 00:34:33.900 --> 00:34:35.760 of course, yes. I think the spark was... The 00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:39.980 whole thing, yeah. So anyway, that strike happened. 00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:44.559 It ended up being 65 days. It was two and a half 00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:49.170 months. almost. It started in February, went 00:34:49.170 --> 00:34:53.369 through March into April. Dr. King came in mid 00:34:53.369 --> 00:34:55.929 -March, made a speech, and one of the most famous 00:34:55.929 --> 00:34:59.329 lines of that speech for me was, he said, it 00:34:59.329 --> 00:35:03.349 is a crime to live in this rich nation and receive 00:35:03.349 --> 00:35:07.239 starvation wages. That kind of resonates today, 00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:09.719 doesn't it? Can we talk about that speech for 00:35:09.719 --> 00:35:12.480 a minute? Because that was another huge thing 00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:14.739 that I learned in the book. And tell me what 00:35:14.739 --> 00:35:17.099 you think of this is my take on it. Two things. 00:35:18.519 --> 00:35:20.559 His staff doesn't want him to go to Memphis, 00:35:20.639 --> 00:35:22.679 but Jim Lawson says you need to come to Memphis. 00:35:22.739 --> 00:35:25.800 He's organizing. which is clearly going to be 00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:27.800 the end, the Poor People's Campaign, bring all 00:35:27.800 --> 00:35:29.940 poor people to Washington, D .C., that's going 00:35:29.940 --> 00:35:32.599 to be a failure. That's not going to work. And 00:35:32.599 --> 00:35:35.380 Jim Lawson says, you've got to come. We're having 00:35:35.380 --> 00:35:38.019 this labor strike, so that's poor people. But 00:35:38.019 --> 00:35:41.119 5 ,000 people are going to come and hear you. 00:35:41.239 --> 00:35:44.460 Now, that had never happened before. He's a Nobel 00:35:44.460 --> 00:35:47.059 Prize winner. I mean, I've read of stories of 00:35:47.059 --> 00:35:50.039 Dr. King speaking in Memphis, like in 67, and 00:35:50.039 --> 00:35:53.059 100 people would show up. And that sounds true 00:35:53.059 --> 00:35:56.079 to me. You know, in rural Mississippi it was. 00:35:56.500 --> 00:35:59.679 And then you tell the story that they're at the 00:35:59.679 --> 00:36:01.840 airport and Jim plays a trick on them. I'm so 00:36:01.840 --> 00:36:08.119 sorry, Martin. This is the – actually, the place 00:36:08.119 --> 00:36:10.400 is Mason Temple in Memphis, which is one of the 00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:12.980 biggest venues at that time that black people 00:36:12.980 --> 00:36:16.579 can use in the South. Right. And he had told 00:36:16.579 --> 00:36:21.699 Andy Young and Reverend – and Dr. King. He had 00:36:21.699 --> 00:36:24.139 told them that there's going to be 10 ,000 people. 00:36:24.519 --> 00:36:26.579 And then when they get to the airport to pick 00:36:26.579 --> 00:36:28.260 them up for this event, they had already gone 00:36:28.260 --> 00:36:31.139 to the place and people were already there. And 00:36:31.139 --> 00:36:33.920 it was more than 10 ,000 people. But what they 00:36:33.920 --> 00:36:37.539 said as a joke, they said, you know, we told 00:36:37.539 --> 00:36:39.320 you it was going to be 10 ,000 people, but it's 00:36:39.320 --> 00:36:42.400 not. And they both looked dejected. And King 00:36:42.400 --> 00:36:45.960 and Young were like, oh, and, you know, sort 00:36:45.960 --> 00:36:48.920 of disappointed. And then they said, no, it's 00:36:48.920 --> 00:36:53.099 15 ,000 people. I think that was huge for Martin. 00:36:53.099 --> 00:36:56.420 And he says spontaneously in the speech, well, 00:36:56.420 --> 00:36:58.639 I'm coming back and we're going to make this 00:36:58.639 --> 00:37:02.480 thing happen. But what I saw in your book, and 00:37:02.480 --> 00:37:05.280 maybe it was through the tapes from your father, 00:37:05.460 --> 00:37:10.219 is that Jim said it was really one of the greatest 00:37:10.219 --> 00:37:14.159 emotional, spiritual evenings of his entire life. 00:37:15.849 --> 00:37:18.449 It really was like being in the presence of Jesus. 00:37:18.690 --> 00:37:22.070 15 ,000 people almost went into ecstasy over 00:37:22.070 --> 00:37:25.210 nonviolence and cheering and we're going to end 00:37:25.210 --> 00:37:29.570 this. And it was in Jim's words that he was telling 00:37:29.570 --> 00:37:35.639 that. It was a true... community in Memphis that 00:37:35.639 --> 00:37:37.500 gathered around. And really, that's what Jim 00:37:37.500 --> 00:37:39.760 was the leader of, was the community that gathered 00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:42.360 around these men. He was not a union leader. 00:37:42.420 --> 00:37:44.820 The union leaders were here from Washington and 00:37:44.820 --> 00:37:47.980 the ones in Memphis. But it was the beloved community. 00:37:48.360 --> 00:37:51.599 It was their vision, right? And Martin Luther 00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:54.500 King saw that. And that's why he wanted to be 00:37:54.500 --> 00:37:56.519 here and wanted to come here and wanted to support 00:37:56.519 --> 00:37:59.260 these men. And you say that his staff didn't 00:37:59.260 --> 00:38:01.360 want him here. And that is the sort of classic 00:38:01.360 --> 00:38:04.670 story. But it's not quite that simple, right? 00:38:04.829 --> 00:38:07.550 I mean, Andrew Young was very clear that he should 00:38:07.550 --> 00:38:11.010 come for that first speech in mid -March, you 00:38:11.010 --> 00:38:15.829 know. And then when he came and he came back 00:38:15.829 --> 00:38:19.750 and the march went wrong, that's when they said 00:38:19.750 --> 00:38:22.530 we shouldn't go back. So the third time, they 00:38:22.530 --> 00:38:25.630 didn't want him to go back that third time. The 00:38:25.630 --> 00:38:28.550 first two, they were pretty much into it, you 00:38:28.550 --> 00:38:31.150 know. That's not to say everybody agreed, but... 00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:33.440 One of the things, you know, Reverend Lawson 00:38:33.440 --> 00:38:38.539 said is when they were making plans, people disagreed. 00:38:38.539 --> 00:38:40.820 So it's not like everybody said, yes, that's 00:38:40.820 --> 00:38:42.280 what we're going. Martin Luther King said, we're 00:38:42.280 --> 00:38:43.719 going to do this. And they said, yes. So the 00:38:43.719 --> 00:38:45.619 idea that they had disagreements was actually 00:38:45.619 --> 00:38:48.539 healthy. And, you know, one of the things I learned 00:38:48.539 --> 00:38:51.199 was that Reverend Lawson didn't think they should 00:38:51.199 --> 00:38:55.159 do the Chicago campaign, right? He didn't believe 00:38:55.159 --> 00:38:57.079 in it. He didn't think they should leave and 00:38:57.079 --> 00:38:59.059 go to an urban area. They shouldn't go to the 00:38:59.059 --> 00:39:01.829 north. busy in the South and that's where the 00:39:01.829 --> 00:39:05.329 worst part of it was. And yet when they went, 00:39:05.409 --> 00:39:07.429 he cooperated, he went along and that's what 00:39:07.429 --> 00:39:10.030 the staff did. So I don't think it's quite as 00:39:10.030 --> 00:39:13.030 dramatic as people want to make it in that sense. 00:39:13.269 --> 00:39:15.349 And I think Reverend Lawson said that too, you 00:39:15.349 --> 00:39:17.809 know. Let's talk about nonviolence then, because 00:39:17.809 --> 00:39:21.010 we're running to the end of our time. So Dr. 00:39:21.849 --> 00:39:24.530 King is saying Jim is the greatest. teacher of 00:39:24.530 --> 00:39:27.889 nonviolence in the world. And I think he was 00:39:27.889 --> 00:39:31.349 that all his life. And this is the Nonviolent 00:39:31.349 --> 00:39:33.449 Jesus podcast. And a lot of our conversations, 00:39:33.550 --> 00:39:35.469 Jim and I were about the nonviolence of Jesus. 00:39:35.730 --> 00:39:38.829 How do we practice that now? What does this all 00:39:38.829 --> 00:39:42.179 mean? All these... many years after Dr. King 00:39:42.179 --> 00:39:44.880 and all that historic nonviolent revolutionary 00:39:44.880 --> 00:39:47.579 work. So I was looking for stuff in the book, 00:39:47.599 --> 00:39:50.360 and I want to just ask you generally, what can 00:39:50.360 --> 00:39:54.400 you tell us about active creative nonviolence 00:39:54.400 --> 00:39:57.300 that you learned from working on this with Jim? 00:39:58.199 --> 00:40:03.619 Yeah, I mean, I think that that's a really big 00:40:03.619 --> 00:40:05.719 question, but I'm going to try and just circle 00:40:05.719 --> 00:40:10.010 in, right? It's not so much maybe what I learned, 00:40:10.050 --> 00:40:12.590 but what I think people will get from this book 00:40:12.590 --> 00:40:18.869 is how do you live a life where you don't create 00:40:18.869 --> 00:40:22.789 harm, where you do try to live leading with love, 00:40:22.989 --> 00:40:27.789 right? And the example of Reverend James Morris 00:40:27.789 --> 00:40:31.690 Lawson Jr. is pretty much the best one I've ever 00:40:31.690 --> 00:40:37.230 seen. You know, he was able, he wasn't a saint. 00:40:37.769 --> 00:40:39.510 Some people have said he was, but he was not 00:40:39.510 --> 00:40:44.809 a saint. And he was not a sinner either, right? 00:40:45.190 --> 00:40:48.809 He just, he lived his life, but he truly believed, 00:40:49.150 --> 00:40:52.530 he truly believed that no one was better than 00:40:52.530 --> 00:40:55.289 anyone else and no one deserved more than anyone 00:40:55.289 --> 00:40:59.489 else or less than anyone else. And I think that 00:40:59.489 --> 00:41:03.400 is, for me, Something I've been able to do more 00:41:03.400 --> 00:41:06.260 in my life since I spent five years with talking 00:41:06.260 --> 00:41:08.920 to Reverend Lawson about his life, right, and 00:41:08.920 --> 00:41:12.280 writing with him about his life. I think that 00:41:12.280 --> 00:41:17.880 the idea that, you know, and I know it's probably 00:41:17.880 --> 00:41:21.380 a Christian idea. I am not a Christian, but I 00:41:21.380 --> 00:41:23.860 know that it is a Christian idea. But I think 00:41:23.860 --> 00:41:25.840 it's an idea that permeates a lot of religion 00:41:25.840 --> 00:41:28.340 and a lot of people, frankly, who maybe aren't 00:41:28.340 --> 00:41:32.449 religious like me. It's the idea, you know, the 00:41:32.449 --> 00:41:36.650 idea that you do no harm, ahimsa, right, which 00:41:36.650 --> 00:41:40.309 is the word from which nonviolence came for Gandhi. 00:41:40.849 --> 00:41:45.710 And the idea that you live your life, the way 00:41:45.710 --> 00:41:50.010 I put it is, I'd say if I had a spiritual guide 00:41:50.010 --> 00:41:52.369 besides Reverend Lawson, it would be Fannie Lou 00:41:52.369 --> 00:41:56.489 Hamer. And the idea that nobody's free till everybody's 00:41:56.489 --> 00:41:59.760 free. And as a white... growing up in the South, 00:41:59.960 --> 00:42:03.239 I really believe that's the case, and that's 00:42:03.239 --> 00:42:05.920 how I live my life, and that's where Reverend 00:42:05.920 --> 00:42:10.280 Lawson's life is such a great, it's so instructive, 00:42:10.280 --> 00:42:13.360 but it's also inspiring, you know, and it... 00:42:14.989 --> 00:42:17.710 kind of is about our better angels. Oh, that's 00:42:17.710 --> 00:42:20.889 great. I said something religious. There. That 00:42:20.889 --> 00:42:23.429 might be a good note to end on because it's also 00:42:23.429 --> 00:42:26.170 true. It was so inspiring and you've given us 00:42:26.170 --> 00:42:28.590 a great gift. I was really, and so I want to 00:42:28.590 --> 00:42:31.349 ask you the last thing is you have any words 00:42:31.349 --> 00:42:34.690 of encouragement for our listeners and in your 00:42:34.690 --> 00:42:37.389 hope with this book that what people might take. 00:42:37.449 --> 00:42:42.219 I just want to tell you and on live that. I was 00:42:42.219 --> 00:42:44.739 shocked by the title of the book. And I just, 00:42:44.780 --> 00:42:47.539 it was so fantastic that you came up with the 00:42:47.539 --> 00:42:51.139 one word nonviolent. Because, folks, as I told 00:42:51.139 --> 00:42:55.239 Emily about, I don't know, 14 years ago, I was 00:42:55.239 --> 00:42:57.300 in L .A. And I called Jim. I said, I'm coming. 00:42:57.579 --> 00:42:59.380 I'm going to be in L .A. I'm giving a speech. 00:42:59.380 --> 00:43:02.039 But I'm taking you to lunch. And we're going 00:43:02.039 --> 00:43:04.280 out to Malibu. I'm going to meet and introduce 00:43:04.280 --> 00:43:07.820 you to all my rich movie star friends. He said, 00:43:07.860 --> 00:43:10.860 no, John, we're going to Taco Bell in my neighborhood. 00:43:11.079 --> 00:43:15.980 Okay, fine. It was Ash Wednesday, which is the 00:43:15.980 --> 00:43:19.039 Catholic Day of Lent and, you know, repentance. 00:43:19.559 --> 00:43:22.079 So we're sitting there, and two clergy people, 00:43:22.320 --> 00:43:24.360 that's what you talk about. I said, Jim, but 00:43:24.360 --> 00:43:27.039 just before we get into it, I want to know what 00:43:27.039 --> 00:43:30.579 your plan is for Lent for 40 days. What's your 00:43:30.579 --> 00:43:34.960 spiritual program? Which is what we do. And without 00:43:34.960 --> 00:43:37.800 missing a beat, he said, And this wasn't that 00:43:37.800 --> 00:43:42.099 long ago. I'm trying to be nonviolent, and I'm 00:43:42.099 --> 00:43:44.599 going to work on it over the next 40 days. And 00:43:44.599 --> 00:43:46.960 so then you come up with that. That's the real 00:43:46.960 --> 00:43:50.579 Jim Lawson. He was always working on it. And 00:43:50.579 --> 00:43:53.860 that's amazing. So any last thoughts for our 00:43:53.860 --> 00:44:00.500 listeners? Well, I think Reverend Lawson got 00:44:00.500 --> 00:44:05.030 to live 56 years beyond. Dr. King, they had the 00:44:05.030 --> 00:44:08.389 same vision that we've talked about. And now 00:44:08.389 --> 00:44:12.269 we're left with that, right? And the work continues. 00:44:12.510 --> 00:44:16.829 I think all of us can take up that work and it's 00:44:16.829 --> 00:44:20.869 hard and there are losses and evil and tyranny 00:44:20.869 --> 00:44:25.110 can reign, but that's not an excuse to give up. 00:44:25.150 --> 00:44:29.579 It's not an excuse to stop. It is an excuse sometimes 00:44:29.579 --> 00:44:33.119 to take time and rest and tend to your inner 00:44:33.119 --> 00:44:35.980 life, and that's something Reverend Lawson was 00:44:35.980 --> 00:44:38.639 adamant about. He taught that to the Little Rock 00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:40.559 Nine, and there's a story in there about that, 00:44:40.619 --> 00:44:43.239 how he had to teach them how to have that inner 00:44:43.239 --> 00:44:46.300 core of strength and know who they were so that 00:44:46.300 --> 00:44:49.840 people can't take that away from you. So it's 00:44:49.840 --> 00:44:54.099 a tough time right now, and it can be very discouraging. 00:44:54.119 --> 00:44:57.900 It is very discouraging to see the world. But 00:44:57.900 --> 00:45:00.559 there are lots of tough times. There have been 00:45:00.559 --> 00:45:03.480 lots of tough times. One of the first revelations 00:45:03.480 --> 00:45:06.920 that I had as I was doing this book was when 00:45:06.920 --> 00:45:10.019 he said, I was asking him, like, what is nonviolence? 00:45:10.019 --> 00:45:12.599 Come on. What is it? What is it? And he said, 00:45:12.739 --> 00:45:18.320 we can't imitate the evil ways of our oppressors. 00:45:19.679 --> 00:45:22.920 And for me, that was so important to understanding 00:45:22.920 --> 00:45:27.219 nonviolence. It doesn't mean you don't get angry. 00:45:27.320 --> 00:45:29.599 It doesn't mean you don't want to hit somebody. 00:45:29.980 --> 00:45:34.960 But violence begets violence. Nonviolence builds 00:45:34.960 --> 00:45:40.440 and can build a more loving, a more just, a more, 00:45:40.440 --> 00:45:46.309 I guess, loving again. world. And that's really 00:45:46.309 --> 00:45:49.190 what he stood for. And I'm going to ruin it by 00:45:49.190 --> 00:45:52.550 saying the last line in the book, which he said 00:45:52.550 --> 00:45:54.690 to me, and I made it the last line in the book. 00:45:54.889 --> 00:45:56.750 I'm going to read it to you, if that's okay. 00:45:57.170 --> 00:46:02.829 He said, we each must discover our own mile and 00:46:02.829 --> 00:46:06.250 join the great visible and invisible community 00:46:06.250 --> 00:46:09.869 of human beings who seek a country and a world 00:46:09.869 --> 00:46:13.940 that does not yet exist. Well, thank you so much, 00:46:14.059 --> 00:46:17.239 Emily. That's beautiful to end on. And so thank 00:46:17.239 --> 00:46:21.860 you for the book. And all those listening, please 00:46:21.860 --> 00:46:24.639 go and order it and get it. It's called Nonviolent, 00:46:24.760 --> 00:46:29.659 the new memoir of Jim Lawson, co -authored by 00:46:29.659 --> 00:46:33.000 my guest and friend, Emily Yellen. And thanks, 00:46:33.059 --> 00:46:35.099 friends, for listening to this episode of the 00:46:35.099 --> 00:46:37.940 Nonviolent Jesus podcast. And you can hear... 00:46:38.199 --> 00:46:42.579 more podcasts and find other upcoming Zoom programs 00:46:42.579 --> 00:46:47.300 at BeatitudesCenter .org. Make a donation if 00:46:47.300 --> 00:46:49.920 you want to support this free work. And also 00:46:49.920 --> 00:46:53.719 sign up to receive our free e -blast, which gives 00:46:53.719 --> 00:46:56.500 out news about upcoming speakers and upcoming 00:46:56.500 --> 00:47:01.119 podcasts and Zooms. And please leave a review, 00:47:01.239 --> 00:47:03.579 but most of all, tell all your friends about 00:47:03.579 --> 00:47:07.050 this podcast because it's terrific. with guests 00:47:07.050 --> 00:47:09.889 like Emily Yellen. May the God of peace bless 00:47:09.889 --> 00:47:12.829 you all. Keep on following the nonviolent Jesus. 00:47:13.170 --> 00:47:14.469 See you next time.