WEBVTT 00:00:14.189 --> 00:00:17.129 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:17.129 --> 00:00:19.670 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:19.670 --> 00:00:22.769 with my friend Mike Farrell, actor, activist, 00:00:22.949 --> 00:00:25.769 and longtime leader against the U .S. death penalty. 00:00:25.989 --> 00:00:30.269 This is a project of www .beatitudecenter .org, 00:00:30.329 --> 00:00:33.490 where you can find many other podcasts and regular 00:00:33.490 --> 00:00:36.530 Zoom programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and 00:00:36.530 --> 00:00:38.909 practicing nonviolence and working for a more 00:00:38.909 --> 00:00:42.609 just, more nonviolent world. So let's begin with 00:00:42.609 --> 00:00:45.170 a little short prayer, as we always do, and I'd 00:00:45.170 --> 00:00:47.390 just like to invite everyone, wherever you are, 00:00:47.469 --> 00:00:51.689 just to take a deep breath and to relax and recenter 00:00:51.689 --> 00:00:54.710 yourself. And together, let's all just enter 00:00:54.710 --> 00:00:57.390 into the presence of the God of peace who loves 00:00:57.390 --> 00:01:00.890 you infinitely and personally and everyone everywhere 00:01:00.890 --> 00:01:04.810 and welcome the nonviolent Jesus with us. Just 00:01:04.810 --> 00:01:07.150 take a moment to ask for whatever grace you need. 00:01:07.900 --> 00:01:10.480 to follow the nonviolent Jesus more faithfully 00:01:10.480 --> 00:01:18.920 on the path of peace. God of peace, thank you 00:01:18.920 --> 00:01:21.900 for all the blessings of life and love and peace 00:01:21.900 --> 00:01:25.159 that you give us. Be with us now as we reflect 00:01:25.159 --> 00:01:28.379 together on your call to be peacemakers in our 00:01:28.379 --> 00:01:31.400 poor world, to follow the nonviolent Jesus and 00:01:31.400 --> 00:01:33.739 work for a more nonviolent, more just world. 00:01:34.260 --> 00:01:38.739 Bless us, inspire us. Heal us, disarm us, strengthen 00:01:38.739 --> 00:01:41.920 us, and send us out to do your will, to do our 00:01:41.920 --> 00:01:46.079 part to help end poverty, racism, greed, injustice, 00:01:46.659 --> 00:01:50.700 the death penalty, gun violence, war, fascism, 00:01:50.739 --> 00:01:52.659 nuclear weapons, and environmental destruction, 00:01:52.819 --> 00:01:56.659 that we might be your holy peacemakers and welcome 00:01:56.659 --> 00:02:00.040 your reign of universal love, nonviolence, and 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:03.890 peace on earth. In Jesus' name, amen. It's a 00:02:03.890 --> 00:02:06.450 great blessing to welcome today my friend Mike 00:02:06.450 --> 00:02:09.770 Farrell, actor and activist and longtime leader 00:02:09.770 --> 00:02:13.009 against the U .S. death penalty. I think I met 00:02:13.009 --> 00:02:16.590 Mike in 1990 protesting U .S. military aid to 00:02:16.590 --> 00:02:20.250 El Salvador and also at the annual event for 00:02:20.250 --> 00:02:23.050 Death Penalty Focus. Of course, he's best known 00:02:23.050 --> 00:02:25.250 as one of the most beloved stars of our time 00:02:25.250 --> 00:02:28.789 in the hit TV show MASH in the 1970s and later 00:02:28.789 --> 00:02:35.289 Providence. TV films and has appeared in several 00:02:35.289 --> 00:02:38.370 movies, and for three years he served as the 00:02:38.370 --> 00:02:40.849 first vice president of the Screen Actors Guild 00:02:40.849 --> 00:02:43.210 and later as a member of the Guild's National 00:02:43.210 --> 00:02:46.919 Board of Directors. Mike is president of Death 00:02:46.919 --> 00:02:50.939 Penalty Focus and also co -chair emeritus of 00:02:50.939 --> 00:02:54.479 Human Rights Watch in California and serves as 00:02:54.479 --> 00:02:58.000 a spokesperson for Concern America, which is 00:02:58.000 --> 00:03:00.460 a great organization that does refugee relief 00:03:00.460 --> 00:03:03.919 and development work. Mike has traveled the whole 00:03:03.919 --> 00:03:06.840 world for 40 years on international peace and 00:03:06.840 --> 00:03:10.560 human rights delegations. Many times, El Salvador, 00:03:10.780 --> 00:03:12.500 Nicaragua, I'm going to read to you the places 00:03:12.500 --> 00:03:15.840 Mike has been. Honduras, USSR, Paraguay, Chile, 00:03:16.099 --> 00:03:20.400 Israel, Palestine, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Czechoslovakia, 00:03:20.460 --> 00:03:24.680 Somalia, Kenya, Croatia, Bosnia, Cuba, Rwanda, 00:03:24.840 --> 00:03:28.659 Zaire, Tanzania, Mexico, Costa Rica, and Samoa. 00:03:29.139 --> 00:03:31.740 He's really been at it for a long time, folks, 00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:34.900 working for justice and peace. During the Salvadoran 00:03:34.900 --> 00:03:38.680 Civil War, He visited the region many times and 00:03:38.680 --> 00:03:41.860 later testified against U .S. military policies 00:03:41.860 --> 00:03:45.120 and war making there before the House Foreign 00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:48.099 Affairs Committee. Mike helped establish the 00:03:48.099 --> 00:03:50.479 California Committee on Human Rights Watch and 00:03:50.479 --> 00:03:54.659 served as his co -chair for 10 years. Later in 00:03:54.659 --> 00:03:57.340 his work to stop the U .S. wars in Iraq, he co 00:03:57.340 --> 00:04:01.310 -founded Artists United to Win Without War. But 00:04:01.310 --> 00:04:04.270 mainly, I've known Mike as a lifelong opponent 00:04:04.270 --> 00:04:07.250 of the death penalty. As I said, he led death 00:04:07.250 --> 00:04:09.490 penalty focus for 30, he's still leading it, 00:04:09.530 --> 00:04:13.509 for 37 years, since 1988, I think, and speaks, 00:04:13.729 --> 00:04:16.230 debates, writes, and campaigns across the country 00:04:16.230 --> 00:04:19.649 in opposition to state killing. In particular, 00:04:19.970 --> 00:04:24.519 I'm so moved that... He was involved in the campaign 00:04:24.519 --> 00:04:27.100 to abolish the death penalty in California, which 00:04:27.100 --> 00:04:30.420 has to be done by a statewide vote, and came 00:04:30.420 --> 00:04:34.800 within 2 % of succeeding. And then later, I think 00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:38.620 in 2021, barely lost again. Mike has written 00:04:38.620 --> 00:04:40.959 a great memoir, which I recommend to everyone, 00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:44.199 called Just Call Me Mike, A Journey to Actor 00:04:44.199 --> 00:04:47.480 and Activist. So Mike Farrell, welcome to the 00:04:47.480 --> 00:04:50.420 Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. Thank you. You're just 00:04:50.420 --> 00:04:53.180 exhausting me. I know. I'm exhausted, too. I 00:04:53.180 --> 00:04:56.240 don't know how you're doing it, man. So how does 00:04:56.240 --> 00:04:59.600 such a big, beloved Hollywood star, one of the 00:04:59.600 --> 00:05:03.560 biggest hits of all time, MASH, become a full 00:05:03.560 --> 00:05:06.939 -time anti -war, anti -death penalty activist? 00:05:07.480 --> 00:05:12.240 And as I told you, I think there's so few. And 00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:15.160 I think of our friends Martin Sheen and Ed Asner, 00:05:15.199 --> 00:05:17.360 who also did this. What happened to you, Mike? 00:05:20.680 --> 00:05:29.160 You know, I think back about, I got married in 00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:36.279 64 originally, and marriage lasted a very short 00:05:36.279 --> 00:05:41.680 time. After three years, we split up, and I was 00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:50.430 really fractured by it. I just saw the kind of 00:05:50.430 --> 00:05:58.269 damage that I guess I had done to myself getting 00:05:58.269 --> 00:06:01.829 into that relationship, but also to my then wife, 00:06:02.029 --> 00:06:05.910 because I didn't know who I was or what I was 00:06:05.910 --> 00:06:13.189 doing. And a dear friend who was involved in 00:06:13.189 --> 00:06:17.509 a lot of things. told me about a place and he 00:06:17.509 --> 00:06:20.610 said, I want you to come here. And it's a, this 00:06:20.610 --> 00:06:26.329 was in the sixties. Um, um, they called it the 00:06:26.329 --> 00:06:30.269 Manhattan project on Manhattan, uh, place in 00:06:30.269 --> 00:06:32.569 Los Angeles. And it was a half halfway house 00:06:32.569 --> 00:06:37.029 essentially. Uh, but it was a program, um, involving 00:06:37.029 --> 00:06:41.329 people who had been in prisons and on the streets 00:06:41.329 --> 00:06:45.389 and in and out of, uh, different aspects of. 00:06:45.819 --> 00:06:48.019 trouble in our society and and they were just 00:06:48.019 --> 00:06:52.839 kind of coming together to under the uh leadership 00:06:52.839 --> 00:06:59.279 of um some former addicts and reformed people 00:06:59.279 --> 00:07:01.939 had been in those situations and a really terrific 00:07:01.939 --> 00:07:06.839 psychologist and and some people from the from 00:07:06.839 --> 00:07:12.579 the salvation army of all places and uh i i just 00:07:12.579 --> 00:07:15.720 was stumbled in there because i was cross -eyed 00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:19.540 with fear and anxiety and not sure who I was 00:07:19.540 --> 00:07:22.680 and where I was going and got into this program. 00:07:27.879 --> 00:07:33.779 You have the capacity to edit this, I'm sure, 00:07:33.860 --> 00:07:40.759 John, so I'll say what was said. I was in a group 00:07:40.759 --> 00:07:45.569 therapy situation. And a guy said something. 00:07:45.610 --> 00:07:48.129 He was a tough guy just out of prison and he 00:07:48.129 --> 00:07:49.990 was really angry about something. And he said 00:07:49.990 --> 00:07:53.769 something and I contradicted him. And he said, 00:07:53.970 --> 00:08:01.889 who the fuck are you? And I said, I'm Mike. And 00:08:01.889 --> 00:08:06.430 he said, what the fuck is a Mike? And I thought. 00:08:07.310 --> 00:08:09.949 That's a good question. That's worth thinking 00:08:09.949 --> 00:08:15.279 about. And I spent a year at this place and learned 00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:19.379 from the people who've been in the streets and 00:08:19.379 --> 00:08:22.620 in the jails and in the mental institutions and 00:08:22.620 --> 00:08:26.860 in the places that they've been that how convenient 00:08:26.860 --> 00:08:29.779 my life had been up to that point and how easy 00:08:29.779 --> 00:08:34.059 it had been. And it kind of got me started on 00:08:34.059 --> 00:08:39.500 being involved in stuff. um and i got involved 00:08:39.500 --> 00:08:44.539 with a lot of things locally and then at the 00:08:44.539 --> 00:08:47.220 same time i was trying to develop a career as 00:08:47.220 --> 00:08:49.440 an actor and i was getting a little job here 00:08:49.440 --> 00:08:53.960 and a little job there and things began to move 00:08:53.960 --> 00:09:03.860 uh along um and when i i i did a couple of television 00:09:03.860 --> 00:09:08.659 series before mash but um Once you do a television 00:09:08.659 --> 00:09:11.940 series, the network wants to promote you and 00:09:11.940 --> 00:09:14.379 they want to tell everybody who you are and why 00:09:14.379 --> 00:09:16.940 you're their star, blah, blah, blah. I worked 00:09:16.940 --> 00:09:20.580 with Brad Crawford on a show called The Interns 00:09:20.580 --> 00:09:24.940 for a year and then with the great Tony Quinn 00:09:24.940 --> 00:09:30.159 on a series for another year. These were not 00:09:30.159 --> 00:09:33.740 long -lived series, but I had opportunities to. 00:09:34.539 --> 00:09:37.340 you know, mix it up with some really extraordinary 00:09:37.340 --> 00:09:46.340 talents. And then sort of out of the blue, MASH 00:09:46.340 --> 00:09:51.100 happened and suddenly, you know, reporters wanted 00:09:51.100 --> 00:09:54.279 to know who I was and why I'd done this and why 00:09:54.279 --> 00:09:58.759 I'd done that. And I just figured, what the hell, 00:09:58.799 --> 00:10:02.080 I'll just tell them who I am and what I've done 00:10:02.080 --> 00:10:07.929 and stuff. So it kind of, it doubles on itself. 00:10:09.789 --> 00:10:17.370 The press, you know, I got involved with in an 00:10:17.370 --> 00:10:23.570 international discussion, debate with, I forgot 00:10:23.570 --> 00:10:26.149 their name, the woman in Florida, the orange 00:10:26.149 --> 00:10:30.129 juice woman in Florida. Anita Bryant. Thank you. 00:10:30.230 --> 00:10:36.129 Yeah. And we had a sort of debate via television 00:10:36.129 --> 00:10:42.230 interviews. And a guy I knew contacted me, and 00:10:42.230 --> 00:10:45.529 at that point we had a proposition on the ballot 00:10:45.529 --> 00:10:48.870 that was supposed to stop gay people from being 00:10:48.870 --> 00:10:53.740 teachers in our schools. And I opposed it. He 00:10:53.740 --> 00:10:57.019 contacted me and he said, look, I'm gay, this 00:10:57.019 --> 00:10:59.960 guy. And he said, but if I have a straight man 00:10:59.960 --> 00:11:04.179 with me that the public knows campaigning, it 00:11:04.179 --> 00:11:07.679 will make the difference. And I said, okay. So 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:11.179 we got involved. I got involved in that campaign. 00:11:11.240 --> 00:11:13.220 Before that, I'd been involved in things with 00:11:13.220 --> 00:11:20.940 Barrio. black communities and stuff with some 00:11:20.940 --> 00:11:24.600 of the organizations so i'd you know been kind 00:11:24.600 --> 00:11:29.039 of blooded if you will um worked with operation 00:11:29.039 --> 00:11:33.559 bootstrap in downtown l .a and stuff so uh but 00:11:33.559 --> 00:11:36.259 you know television debates were kind of new 00:11:36.259 --> 00:11:41.019 to me but i got involved in that and um one thing 00:11:41.019 --> 00:11:43.759 tends to lead to another and you became an activist 00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:48.379 then right yeah so let me ask you about i don't 00:11:48.669 --> 00:11:53.269 We don't have to talk about MASH, but were you 00:11:53.269 --> 00:11:56.129 always against war? And then suddenly during 00:11:56.129 --> 00:11:59.830 the Vietnam War or after it, you're in the leading 00:11:59.830 --> 00:12:03.429 show, which is about war. Do you think MASH helped 00:12:03.429 --> 00:12:06.809 turn people against war and that films can do 00:12:06.809 --> 00:12:13.269 that? How did your anti -war work lead to, I'll 00:12:13.269 --> 00:12:15.730 ask you, Lynn, about anti -death penalty work 00:12:15.730 --> 00:12:18.370 and human rights work? Or do you see it all as 00:12:18.370 --> 00:12:22.090 one big mess, one big culture of violence? Maybe 00:12:22.090 --> 00:12:26.250 say about some of those things. Well, to answer 00:12:26.250 --> 00:12:29.269 the first question first, no, I was not always 00:12:29.269 --> 00:12:33.330 against war. I grew up in West Hollywood and 00:12:33.330 --> 00:12:37.909 thought that the Marine Corps, Marines were fighting 00:12:37.909 --> 00:12:41.990 in. certainly in Korea, but I knew all about 00:12:41.990 --> 00:12:43.610 the Marines. I thought the Marines were great. 00:12:43.669 --> 00:12:46.350 So I joined the Marines right out of high school 00:12:46.350 --> 00:12:52.990 and learned. I stationed in Okinawa for a while 00:12:52.990 --> 00:12:55.769 and Japan for a while. You know, I learned that 00:12:55.769 --> 00:13:02.289 it wasn't everything was cracked up to be. But 00:13:02.289 --> 00:13:08.669 it came out of it a little more. educated about 00:13:08.669 --> 00:13:12.309 the whole issue. You know, when I was in Okinawa, 00:13:12.450 --> 00:13:15.149 we were stationed in an area that was near a 00:13:15.149 --> 00:13:17.370 village that was a no -go village because they 00:13:17.370 --> 00:13:19.470 were supposed to be communists. So I went over 00:13:19.470 --> 00:13:24.110 there to engage in conversations and find out 00:13:24.110 --> 00:13:29.870 that they were just people. And so the education 00:13:29.870 --> 00:13:33.629 came slowly, I will say. There were a lot of 00:13:33.629 --> 00:13:37.000 episodes in MASH like that. where you're just 00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:40.159 meeting people. As I recall, when I was in college 00:13:40.159 --> 00:13:44.139 watching MASH. Sure. So when MASH happened, you 00:13:44.139 --> 00:13:46.759 know, and it was very much a show that was about 00:13:46.759 --> 00:13:50.179 war and about against war. And Larry Gelbart 00:13:50.179 --> 00:13:54.440 was one of the great spokespeople, I think, writing 00:13:54.440 --> 00:13:57.620 the scripts he wrote and the rest of the writing 00:13:57.620 --> 00:14:00.929 crew, of course. But the show was very clearly 00:14:00.929 --> 00:14:03.950 anti -war, and we were all thrilled to be making 00:14:03.950 --> 00:14:05.730 these statements. That's so great to hear, Mike. 00:14:05.990 --> 00:14:08.330 Okay, I want to ask you about Central America, 00:14:08.350 --> 00:14:12.769 because I think that's for you and for millions 00:14:12.769 --> 00:14:16.610 of us activists across the country, when a lot 00:14:16.610 --> 00:14:19.429 of us after Vietnam and all really deepened our 00:14:19.429 --> 00:14:23.259 commitment. against war and into activism in 00:14:23.259 --> 00:14:25.139 general because of what was happening, what the 00:14:25.139 --> 00:14:27.799 U .S. was doing in El Salvador, Nicaragua, Guatemala, 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:30.620 Honduras, and still doing. We're recording this 00:14:30.620 --> 00:14:34.500 just after we kidnapped the president of Venezuela. 00:14:35.159 --> 00:14:39.919 So you campaigned in the 1980s. We have Oscar 00:14:39.919 --> 00:14:44.200 Romero killed, and you were going to El Salvador 00:14:44.200 --> 00:14:46.919 and Central America and went many times and got 00:14:46.919 --> 00:14:50.019 involved. in a lot of groups, and that led, I 00:14:50.019 --> 00:14:52.860 guess, to Human Rights Watch and others. I wanted 00:14:52.860 --> 00:14:55.779 to ask you, in general, just to talk about those 00:14:55.779 --> 00:14:57.820 years, but in particular, I don't know if you 00:14:57.820 --> 00:15:01.679 remember, but I had lived there in 1985 under 00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:04.000 the direction of the six Jesuits who were later 00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:06.720 killed. They were my friends, and they sent me 00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:09.419 out into the war zone. And so I was going two 00:15:09.419 --> 00:15:13.610 or three times a year for 15 years. Did you know 00:15:13.610 --> 00:15:15.750 them? That's my little personal question for 00:15:15.750 --> 00:15:20.950 them. I did. I met them. Yes, I met them and 00:15:20.950 --> 00:15:26.129 was devastated when they were murdered. That 00:15:26.129 --> 00:15:34.480 started because of... I had met the people running 00:15:34.480 --> 00:15:37.059 Concern. You mentioned Concern, an American organization 00:15:37.059 --> 00:15:39.539 I've been a spokesperson for. It's a great group, 00:15:39.559 --> 00:15:42.080 Robert. Yeah, they're a terrific, fabulous group. 00:15:42.259 --> 00:15:46.000 And they asked me if I would become their, I 00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:48.379 was at that time one of the stars of MASH, and 00:15:48.379 --> 00:15:52.279 you could get them press, if would I be willing 00:15:52.279 --> 00:15:54.519 to be their national spokesperson. And I said, 00:15:54.639 --> 00:15:59.759 yes, but I'd like to see the work you're doing 00:15:59.759 --> 00:16:07.279 first. So I went to the Thai -Cambodian border 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:12.840 where the Khmer War was happening in Cambodia 00:16:12.840 --> 00:16:19.240 at the time, the Khmer Rouge. And the concerned 00:16:19.240 --> 00:16:22.679 people were working in the camps that the UN 00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:25.659 had set up on the Thai -Cambodian border. And 00:16:25.659 --> 00:16:30.240 I was able to go into Cambodia and see with a... 00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:33.740 a couple of people from the organization and 00:16:33.740 --> 00:16:36.879 not only into the camps and see the camps and 00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:38.480 see the work that they were doing there, but 00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:41.759 into, you know, see that there was a program 00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:46.299 where workers, farmers from inside the state, 00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:49.080 the country would come out because their products 00:16:49.080 --> 00:16:53.460 had all been destroyed by the Khmer Rouge and 00:16:53.460 --> 00:16:56.480 they would get food and get seed and get stuff 00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:59.259 from the United Nations. It was quite extraordinary. 00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:05.200 program to see wow and that and that um that 00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:09.160 then sort of embedded me with concern and then 00:17:09.160 --> 00:17:14.859 they asked me to go into central america where 00:17:14.859 --> 00:17:18.720 what asked if i would they had a truckload of 00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:23.200 equipment medicine and stuff that had to be distributed 00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:25.420 to some of the refugee camps for salvadorans 00:17:25.420 --> 00:17:31.019 in honduras And so I went down there and drove 00:17:31.019 --> 00:17:38.980 the truck up to a number of the camps. I remember 00:17:38.980 --> 00:17:44.099 we had two, a number of big bags full of stuff. 00:17:44.259 --> 00:17:48.259 And one of the bags, as we parked and we were 00:17:48.259 --> 00:17:53.059 distributing it to the people, two young men 00:17:53.059 --> 00:17:55.380 grabbed one of the bags and just took off down 00:17:55.380 --> 00:18:00.029 the road. And I looked at them, and I looked 00:18:00.029 --> 00:18:02.269 at the person who was running the camp, and I 00:18:02.269 --> 00:18:05.890 said, with my eyes, raised the question with 00:18:05.890 --> 00:18:07.829 my eyebrows, and she nodded her head, and I said, 00:18:07.890 --> 00:18:11.289 okay. Off they went to the border, and they were 00:18:11.289 --> 00:18:13.529 taking the stuff to Charlie Clements, who was 00:18:13.529 --> 00:18:17.470 the doctor. Oh, right, Charlie Clements. On the 00:18:17.470 --> 00:18:22.769 other side of the border. So we were, you know. 00:18:24.060 --> 00:18:30.759 It was just a great education. It sure was. And 00:18:30.759 --> 00:18:34.599 then we drove down into Managua to see there 00:18:34.599 --> 00:18:40.539 was a big thing going on in Nicaragua, obviously, 00:18:40.539 --> 00:18:44.819 with the Sandinistas and the Reagan administration 00:18:44.819 --> 00:18:48.720 was trying to destroy them. And we went out to 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:51.940 look at the Contra camps, took a helicopter out 00:18:51.940 --> 00:18:56.200 to see the... the mosquito uh situation the mosquito 00:18:56.200 --> 00:19:00.700 indians on the east coast anyway so and that 00:19:00.700 --> 00:19:03.460 started my association with salvador and i was 00:19:03.460 --> 00:19:07.359 back three or four times i don't know um for 00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:13.839 uh human rights delegations um just to meet with 00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:19.940 and talk to these incredible um people you know 00:19:19.940 --> 00:19:23.059 go and visit people in the prisons listen to 00:19:23.059 --> 00:19:27.359 the stories of torture and hideous behaviors 00:19:27.359 --> 00:19:31.579 and anyway so yeah so i was there i don't know 00:19:31.579 --> 00:19:37.180 how many times and thrilled to meet the uh the 00:19:37.180 --> 00:19:41.000 priests and so so stricken to hear about their 00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:45.640 murder it was just disgusting i remember when 00:19:45.640 --> 00:19:48.640 we when we met with them and talked to them um 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:54.079 it had to be under cover we it couldn't be known 00:19:54.079 --> 00:19:58.079 that we were there i'm sure you realize so it's 00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:01.859 not the same thing many times yeah it it but 00:20:01.859 --> 00:20:04.839 it it couldn't be known that they were meeting 00:20:04.839 --> 00:20:09.980 people and giving information so so i felt kind 00:20:09.980 --> 00:20:12.160 of complicit when they were murdered i thought 00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:16.700 cat i hope on some level well you know you feel 00:20:16.700 --> 00:20:23.700 you feel wounded by it, but you also feel responsible. 00:20:24.259 --> 00:20:27.279 I was able to leave. I was able to fly out and 00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:32.519 go back to the States. They chose to stay and 00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:41.460 face what they faced. It kind of tears at you. 00:20:41.900 --> 00:20:48.960 And it led to some of the most focused activism 00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:52.400 in U .S. history that actually ended U .S. military 00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:56.220 aid to El Salvador in 1990. And that's when I 00:20:56.220 --> 00:20:58.960 met you. L .A. was having the week. I was traveling 00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:02.039 the country every day. We had those weekly demonstrations. 00:21:02.299 --> 00:21:05.559 But thank you for all that great work. Now, meanwhile, 00:21:05.960 --> 00:21:08.900 you're traveling the country and you're still 00:21:08.900 --> 00:21:11.920 acting and you're in and out meeting these mythic 00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:14.220 people in Central America, not to mention around 00:21:14.220 --> 00:21:17.200 the world. And there you are with Death Penalty 00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:20.380 Focus from 1988 with our great friend who just 00:21:20.380 --> 00:21:23.259 died, Father Chris Panette. And you've remained 00:21:23.259 --> 00:21:25.880 a faithful leader and a voice calling for the 00:21:25.880 --> 00:21:29.380 abolition of the death penalty for about 37 years. 00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:31.980 How did you get involved in that? But tell our 00:21:31.980 --> 00:21:34.900 listeners about Death Penalty Focus. Presume 00:21:34.900 --> 00:21:37.559 they don't know about it. Sure. Well, DPF is 00:21:37.559 --> 00:21:40.299 one of the largest abolition organizations in 00:21:40.299 --> 00:21:45.309 the country. We are based in California and have 00:21:45.309 --> 00:21:48.410 been focused on California's death penalty. But 00:21:48.410 --> 00:21:53.829 it's really an nonprofit, 501c3, educational 00:21:53.829 --> 00:21:57.630 organization that reaches out to people and lets 00:21:57.630 --> 00:22:00.029 them understand. And we provide speakers and 00:22:00.029 --> 00:22:04.569 we travel and we have demonstrations, had demonstrations 00:22:04.569 --> 00:22:08.190 whenever there were executions in California. 00:22:08.269 --> 00:22:12.039 We were always there at the gates. And inside 00:22:12.039 --> 00:22:14.680 death row, meeting with the people when we could. 00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:19.640 But it happened because I had always sort of 00:22:19.640 --> 00:22:21.500 thought that death penalty didn't make any sense. 00:22:22.779 --> 00:22:29.119 But I wasn't an activist per se. But when the 00:22:29.119 --> 00:22:33.220 first execution in California in some dozen years, 00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:41.539 I think, was a young man. Just a terrible situation. 00:22:42.059 --> 00:22:44.160 I'm blanking on his name right now, of course. 00:22:44.259 --> 00:22:49.079 But he was the first executed, I think, 15 years 00:22:49.079 --> 00:22:59.519 after no executions had taken place for some 00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:03.599 time. And I did a press conference or two with 00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:09.039 some people and talked about... the wrongheadedness 00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:14.259 of killing this fellow and how urgently important 00:23:14.259 --> 00:23:17.220 it was that we stopped doing this. And as a result 00:23:17.220 --> 00:23:24.140 of that, Leonard Bierman, a dear friend, and 00:23:24.140 --> 00:23:28.140 George Regas, and Jim Lawson, who had started 00:23:28.140 --> 00:23:34.160 Death Penalty Focus, asked me to become... a 00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:37.559 member of the board which i did and then ultimately 00:23:37.559 --> 00:23:41.900 became the president of the board just to be 00:23:41.900 --> 00:23:46.480 a spokesperson for the issue but you know it's 00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:49.539 one of those things um yeah when i was doing 00:23:49.539 --> 00:23:52.640 when i was doing mash i got a call and this would 00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:59.880 have been 1975 probably from a man minister in 00:23:59.880 --> 00:24:02.589 tennessee and he said I had signed a petition 00:24:02.589 --> 00:24:04.230 or something somewhere. He said, I understand 00:24:04.230 --> 00:24:06.549 you're against the death penalty. And I said, 00:24:06.569 --> 00:24:10.269 that's correct. And he said, I'm trying to stop 00:24:10.269 --> 00:24:14.029 it here in Tennessee, and I need your help. Would 00:24:14.029 --> 00:24:17.250 you come down here and meet with some people? 00:24:17.289 --> 00:24:22.210 And I said, okay. And he took me to my first 00:24:22.210 --> 00:24:25.009 visit to death row. So that was in the 70s. You 00:24:25.009 --> 00:24:28.289 had been to death row long before death penalty 00:24:28.289 --> 00:24:31.920 focused then. I didn't realize that. Wow. Because 00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:34.759 it's no joke to go to Death Row. That was my 00:24:34.759 --> 00:24:38.039 next question. Tell me about that and your other 00:24:38.039 --> 00:24:43.900 many visits to Death Row. Did that change you, 00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:47.099 that experience? Absolutely. It's life -changing, 00:24:47.240 --> 00:24:54.299 isn't it? Sure. The first one was to Tennessee's 00:24:54.299 --> 00:25:00.430 Death Row and just walking into the... They have 00:25:00.430 --> 00:25:06.549 this garish yellow chair stationed as a kind 00:25:06.549 --> 00:25:13.269 of throne to show you what we people of Tennessee 00:25:13.269 --> 00:25:16.809 are capable of doing, strapping people into this 00:25:16.809 --> 00:25:20.410 god -awful thing. And I went into and I met with 00:25:20.410 --> 00:25:23.329 the guys on the row, and they were all men, and 00:25:23.329 --> 00:25:28.619 mostly were people of color. And we talked, some 00:25:28.619 --> 00:25:32.660 of us, I remember, God, you know, some were so 00:25:32.660 --> 00:25:35.420 angry they wouldn't even look at me. Some were 00:25:35.420 --> 00:25:39.799 grateful for my being there. Some wanted to talk. 00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:43.859 This young man gave me, which I still have, a 00:25:43.859 --> 00:25:51.019 crucifix he had made out of toothpicks and asked 00:25:51.019 --> 00:25:56.220 me to take it, to keep it in his memory, which 00:25:56.220 --> 00:26:03.700 I... Wow, Mark. And I went from there to Virginia, 00:26:03.779 --> 00:26:08.039 where a woman who I met through Joe, the minister 00:26:08.039 --> 00:26:12.000 who got me involved initially, she introduced 00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:19.259 me to a guy, 20 -some -year -old kid in manacles 00:26:19.259 --> 00:26:23.980 and chains and stuff that you just can't believe. 00:26:24.039 --> 00:26:26.319 He came clanking into the room and sat down. 00:26:27.019 --> 00:26:29.920 And she said, he's innocent in this case. And 00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:37.539 we have to, we have to, the only person that 00:26:37.539 --> 00:26:39.579 can save him is the governor. We have to launch 00:26:39.579 --> 00:26:42.079 a campaign and I need your help with this campaign. 00:26:42.279 --> 00:26:45.660 So we did a campaign in the state of Virginia 00:26:45.660 --> 00:26:50.160 that ultimately succeeded in getting this man 00:26:50.160 --> 00:26:57.089 commuted from death to life. Wow. Which is. You 00:26:57.089 --> 00:27:01.569 know, he's still behind bars and I visited him 00:27:01.569 --> 00:27:05.390 in I don't know how many prisons over time. But 00:27:05.390 --> 00:27:11.250 I have to tell you a story. During that time, 00:27:11.369 --> 00:27:16.369 I was also asked to go on a human rights visit 00:27:16.369 --> 00:27:21.710 to the Middle East. You mentioned it to Israel 00:27:21.710 --> 00:27:24.970 and the occupied territories. And I met a young 00:27:24.970 --> 00:27:32.059 man, a lawyer. who lives in Baltimore. And I 00:27:32.059 --> 00:27:38.599 said, I got a guy on death row in Virginia. Do 00:27:38.599 --> 00:27:42.240 you feel like you want to give us a hand? And 00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:44.920 he said, I'd like to know more about the case 00:27:44.920 --> 00:27:48.700 and stuff. So he got very deeply involved. He 00:27:48.700 --> 00:27:53.480 ultimately wrote the plea that got the governor 00:27:53.480 --> 00:28:00.970 to sign. over and changed his sentence from death 00:28:00.970 --> 00:28:04.529 to life, which was not satisfactory to us. We 00:28:04.529 --> 00:28:07.250 wanted him freed, but at least he wasn't being 00:28:07.250 --> 00:28:13.589 killed. But a garish story I'll tell you. We 00:28:13.589 --> 00:28:19.049 were down in the death cell in Virginia. They 00:28:19.049 --> 00:28:21.769 had a place where they would take prisoners who 00:28:21.769 --> 00:28:23.849 were about to be executed to the death chamber. 00:28:24.359 --> 00:28:27.339 And we were there the night before, the day before 00:28:27.339 --> 00:28:32.039 he was to be killed. And we sat around a table 00:28:32.039 --> 00:28:36.279 sort of talking strategy about we haven't heard 00:28:36.279 --> 00:28:38.460 from the governor what will happen if we don't 00:28:38.460 --> 00:28:42.019 and what will happen if we do. And one of the 00:28:42.019 --> 00:28:44.019 lawyers looked at me and he said, Mike, Joe, 00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:47.319 this kid, tell Mike about this table we're sitting 00:28:47.319 --> 00:28:50.799 around. And I looked at him. I didn't know what 00:28:50.799 --> 00:28:52.519 he was talking about. It's this wooden table. 00:28:53.289 --> 00:28:57.809 And Joe said, oh, after I'm electrocuted, my 00:28:57.809 --> 00:29:01.849 body will be too hot to touch. So the guards 00:29:01.849 --> 00:29:05.210 wearing asbestos gloves will pick me up and carry 00:29:05.210 --> 00:29:08.490 me out and lay me out on this table so the body 00:29:08.490 --> 00:29:13.450 will cool. And I thought, honest to God. Yeah, 00:29:13.450 --> 00:29:20.299 yeah. Honest to God, this is beyond my comprehension. 00:29:21.079 --> 00:29:26.980 So that night, Rick, the attorney that I mentioned 00:29:26.980 --> 00:29:29.500 that I'd met in the Middle East, they're on the 00:29:29.500 --> 00:29:34.200 trip, went down. He said, I need Joe's signature 00:29:34.200 --> 00:29:36.980 on this document in order to get the governor. 00:29:37.099 --> 00:29:40.240 We've got the governor to agree, but Joe had 00:29:40.240 --> 00:29:44.910 to agree to the terms. And Joe said, No, I won't 00:29:44.910 --> 00:29:48.970 sign that. Of course, if he didn't, he was going 00:29:48.970 --> 00:29:56.410 to die. And Rick said to the guard, he said, 00:29:56.589 --> 00:30:00.150 who's in that cell over there? And the guard 00:30:00.150 --> 00:30:02.609 said, that cell is empty. And he said, okay, 00:30:02.769 --> 00:30:06.049 if this son of a bitch doesn't sign this thing, 00:30:06.150 --> 00:30:08.069 I'm going to kill him, and you're going to have 00:30:08.069 --> 00:30:16.259 to put me in that cell next door. You get into 00:30:16.259 --> 00:30:18.799 this kind of morose. Yeah, I get it. I know. 00:30:19.859 --> 00:30:23.039 It's amazing. But so Joe finally signed it. And 00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:28.660 Joe was then another 20 years in jail. And we 00:30:28.660 --> 00:30:31.960 finally got him out a few years before he passed 00:30:31.960 --> 00:30:33.880 away. That's great. Thank you for telling me 00:30:33.880 --> 00:30:39.700 that. I used to visit Death Row in the 80s a 00:30:39.700 --> 00:30:42.839 lot. I probably met. Dozens and dozens of men 00:30:42.839 --> 00:30:45.720 who've all were killed. But I can't go. All over 00:30:45.720 --> 00:30:48.019 the country. But I can't go because, you know, 00:30:48.059 --> 00:30:50.279 I'm an ex -con now from doing the plowshares, 00:30:50.279 --> 00:30:54.759 actually. Oh. I have so many. convicted felonies 00:30:54.759 --> 00:30:57.099 as you do. And that's because I knew the Jesuits 00:30:57.099 --> 00:30:59.359 were killed. Like they were my friends and they 00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:02.059 had their heads blown off. Well, after that, 00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:04.619 you're happy to go hammer on a nuclear weapon 00:31:04.619 --> 00:31:08.059 as I did with Philip Marion. But Mike, I've had 00:31:08.059 --> 00:31:12.059 on our program, our friends, Sister Helen Brajean 00:31:12.059 --> 00:31:16.059 and Brian Stevenson talking about this. And recently, 00:31:16.339 --> 00:31:18.980 a couple of weeks ago, I get all your materials 00:31:18.980 --> 00:31:22.599 and you wrote in your Christmas greeting about 00:31:23.240 --> 00:31:28.940 2025, you know, Florida executed 19 people, Alabama, 00:31:29.099 --> 00:31:33.140 South Carolina, Texas, each killed five. So in 00:31:33.140 --> 00:31:37.920 2025, 47 human beings were killed in 11 states, 00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:41.420 the highest number in America in 15 years. Yet 00:31:41.420 --> 00:31:45.140 you said in the title of your Christmas message, 00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:50.799 the tide is turning. Tell me more. Well, I think 00:31:50.799 --> 00:31:54.619 it is. I think what we've seen is that more juries 00:31:54.619 --> 00:31:59.119 have refused to sentence the people that they're 00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:02.960 judging to death than have sentenced them to 00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:07.279 death. That's a new statistic. So juries are 00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:14.099 beginning to hear it. And the studies show support 00:32:14.099 --> 00:32:18.089 for the death penalty. 20 years ago was in the 00:32:18.089 --> 00:32:22.970 70s, 75%. Today, it's, according to the last 00:32:22.970 --> 00:32:28.410 poll, 52%. It's amazing. And if you add in the 00:32:28.410 --> 00:32:30.569 question, and it's one that's a little difficult 00:32:30.569 --> 00:32:32.609 for us, but if you add in the question of life 00:32:32.609 --> 00:32:35.569 without parole, life in prison without the possibility 00:32:35.569 --> 00:32:39.190 of parole as an option, then death goes below, 00:32:39.410 --> 00:32:44.750 down into the 40s. i don't champion that because 00:32:44.750 --> 00:32:46.630 i don't believe in life in prison without the 00:32:46.630 --> 00:32:50.589 possibility of parole either so it's just important 00:32:50.589 --> 00:32:53.650 to know that we have brought the death penalty 00:32:53.650 --> 00:32:57.589 pro -death penalty vote down to just above 50 00:32:57.589 --> 00:33:01.589 and if we keep struggling at it and the the youth 00:33:01.589 --> 00:33:06.670 in this country are very very much opposed to 00:33:06.670 --> 00:33:09.589 the death penalty and are becoming more active 00:33:09.589 --> 00:33:13.299 as we now know due to the stresses and strains 00:33:13.299 --> 00:33:17.400 on the system provided by this new craziness 00:33:17.400 --> 00:33:22.240 in Washington. We're going to be seeing much 00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:26.299 more activism on the part of young people. And 00:33:26.299 --> 00:33:28.500 much more awareness in the part of young people. 00:33:28.519 --> 00:33:31.119 That's so great. Mike, and that's all the fruit 00:33:31.119 --> 00:33:35.180 of campaigning, organizing, speaking out. Thank 00:33:35.180 --> 00:33:37.619 you. Now I want to ask you a question. I just 00:33:37.619 --> 00:33:39.819 want to ask you to bear with me like everybody 00:33:39.819 --> 00:33:43.420 has to. I want to throw in or add in Jesus to 00:33:43.420 --> 00:33:46.039 the mix. And I want to do it in a roundabout 00:33:46.039 --> 00:33:48.380 way about my story of Mother Teresa, which I 00:33:48.380 --> 00:33:50.460 don't know if you know. I don't know if you remember 00:33:50.460 --> 00:33:53.799 it. But in my work over the years, I've always 00:33:53.799 --> 00:33:57.640 been teaching nonviolence and promoting the nonviolent 00:33:57.640 --> 00:33:59.640 Jesus. That's how Chris and I knew each other 00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:03.319 so well. But right after the Jesuits were killed 00:34:03.319 --> 00:34:05.220 and we were having the Wednesday morning meetings, 00:34:05.559 --> 00:34:08.619 Governor Dumanjan in California, I was at the 00:34:08.619 --> 00:34:11.039 Jesuit School of Theology in Berkeley, announced 00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:14.960 the execution of Robert Harris on death in San 00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:18.699 Quentin. And I had access to Mother Teresa. And 00:34:18.699 --> 00:34:20.719 I had this crazy idea. Oh, I'm going to call 00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:23.219 her. And I'm going to call Governor Duke Magin. 00:34:23.239 --> 00:34:25.559 And I'm going to ask if he'd talk to her and 00:34:25.559 --> 00:34:29.000 let her try to talk him out of it. And then I'll 00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:32.280 hold a press conference. And ha, ha, ha. And 00:34:32.280 --> 00:34:34.719 it was a Monday night. And I called Mother Teresa. 00:34:34.820 --> 00:34:38.480 And she picked. up the phone. In March 1990, 00:34:38.619 --> 00:34:42.039 it was the scariest moment of my life. And I'm 00:34:42.039 --> 00:34:44.619 a goofball, as you know. And I said, hi, Mother 00:34:44.619 --> 00:34:46.980 Teresa. I'm John. I'm a Jesuit in California. 00:34:47.400 --> 00:34:50.639 Would you talk to Governor Duke Magin and ask 00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:53.780 him not to kill somebody? And she said, what 00:34:53.780 --> 00:34:56.670 did he do? Which was, first of all, very interesting. 00:34:56.769 --> 00:34:57.849 In other words, she wanted to know all about 00:34:57.849 --> 00:35:00.269 Robert Harris. Yes, right. Who had killed those 00:35:00.269 --> 00:35:02.329 two kids in San Diego. Right. Remember all that? 00:35:02.329 --> 00:35:04.269 They say eating the hamburgers and all that stuff. 00:35:04.269 --> 00:35:08.139 Oh, that's awful. Yeah. And she said, of course, 00:35:08.139 --> 00:35:10.300 John, I will call him. And I said, can I call 00:35:10.300 --> 00:35:12.719 you back and then get a statement from you and 00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:14.719 release it to the press? Yes, of course you can, 00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:17.260 John. And you tell him, I will get all the nuns 00:35:17.260 --> 00:35:19.519 in the planet to pray for you and for the governor. 00:35:19.639 --> 00:35:22.179 Oh, great. Okay. So I call the governor. Well, 00:35:22.260 --> 00:35:24.559 he's kind of screwed either way. If he takes 00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:26.960 the call, he's got to talk to her. And if he 00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:30.480 doesn't, he's got to deal with that. And, you 00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:33.519 know, she went on. Prevent it. We stopped eight 00:35:33.519 --> 00:35:39.760 executions. So I call her back. And I said, Mother 00:35:39.760 --> 00:35:42.139 Teresa, is John calling again? What? Did you 00:35:42.139 --> 00:35:44.500 talk to Governor Duke Mays? Yes, John, I talked 00:35:44.500 --> 00:35:47.539 to the governor. Did you? What did you tell him? 00:35:47.599 --> 00:35:51.840 And she goes, Mike, this is my question. I never 00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:54.360 recovered. She goes, I told him to do what Jesus 00:35:54.360 --> 00:35:58.300 would do. And long pause, Mike. And I said to 00:35:58.300 --> 00:36:00.980 her. Did you tell him not to kill the guy? I 00:36:00.980 --> 00:36:03.420 got mad at Mother Teresa. She goes, no, John, 00:36:03.480 --> 00:36:05.780 I told him to do what Jesus would do. To which 00:36:05.780 --> 00:36:08.119 I said, well, why didn't you tell him not to 00:36:08.119 --> 00:36:10.320 kill the guy? I started yelling at Mother Teresa. 00:36:10.860 --> 00:36:13.340 And then we kind of became friends because we 00:36:13.340 --> 00:36:16.400 talked. Not because I told him to do what Jesus 00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:18.860 would do. I thought she was nuts. And it was 00:36:18.860 --> 00:36:23.139 such a mistake. And so I go outside and there 00:36:23.139 --> 00:36:25.820 were 30 press people there. And it was live on 00:36:25.820 --> 00:36:27.800 CNN because Mother Teresa had never done this 00:36:27.800 --> 00:36:30.679 before. And the next morning, the L .A. Times, 00:36:30.880 --> 00:36:34.480 Conrad, the great art cartoonist, had that cartoon 00:36:34.480 --> 00:36:36.340 with Mother Teresa on the phone on the left side 00:36:36.340 --> 00:36:38.579 saying, do what Jesus would do, and Duke Magian 00:36:38.579 --> 00:36:40.780 on the phone going, yeah, but what would Pilate 00:36:40.780 --> 00:36:47.340 do? Oh. And Duke Magian's number two guy called 00:36:47.340 --> 00:36:50.139 me and yelled me, called me every name in the 00:36:50.139 --> 00:36:55.179 book, and the execution was canceled. And she 00:36:55.179 --> 00:36:59.119 did that many, many times and was great fun and 00:36:59.119 --> 00:37:01.360 used to laugh at me and tell me all kinds of 00:37:01.360 --> 00:37:07.179 things. Mike, what would Jesus do? Isn't that 00:37:07.179 --> 00:37:09.900 great? Actually, what she said was brilliant 00:37:09.900 --> 00:37:14.239 because it just opened the whole thing. Tell 00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:17.380 me about it. God bless her. Yeah. She was terrific. 00:37:18.320 --> 00:37:21.349 Oh, man. So tell me about what would Jesus do? 00:37:21.389 --> 00:37:23.750 I want to hear in your words. I've talked a lot 00:37:23.750 --> 00:37:26.170 about this, but I want to hear you say the obvious 00:37:26.170 --> 00:37:30.809 answer. Clearly, Jesus would lift up his hands 00:37:30.809 --> 00:37:36.650 and say, stop this. Put me in front of him, please, 00:37:36.809 --> 00:37:42.860 and then do what you would do. Wow. I still thought 00:37:42.860 --> 00:37:45.340 you were going to say, he would say, don't kill 00:37:45.340 --> 00:37:48.679 the guy. But he would say, let the one without 00:37:48.679 --> 00:37:51.460 sin be the first to throw a stone. And he's the 00:37:51.460 --> 00:37:53.400 only one without sin. You see what I mean? He 00:37:53.400 --> 00:37:56.119 prevented the execution of that poor woman in 00:37:56.119 --> 00:37:59.039 the temple. I always think of Jesus as siding 00:37:59.039 --> 00:38:03.420 with the condemned and then becoming the condemned. 00:38:04.840 --> 00:38:07.599 He's a victim of the death penalty. How can any 00:38:07.599 --> 00:38:10.239 Christian, Mike, in the U .S. support the death 00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:13.980 penalty? Well, I don't understand. I must say, 00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:17.440 I don't understand how anybody, but anyone who 00:38:17.440 --> 00:38:24.099 believes in Christ in the Christian philosophy. 00:38:25.079 --> 00:38:28.000 could support the death medley is simply beyond 00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:31.059 me. Mike, what sustains you in this work, this 00:38:31.059 --> 00:38:33.800 great work over these many decades? How do you 00:38:33.800 --> 00:38:37.099 keep going? Did you have a practice of meditation 00:38:37.099 --> 00:38:41.239 or friends? I don't know, I'm asking. No, you 00:38:41.239 --> 00:38:46.059 know, I have a deep sense that everybody really 00:38:46.059 --> 00:38:50.579 needs to be loved. I learned at that house I 00:38:50.579 --> 00:38:53.659 told you about many years ago, I learned that 00:38:53.980 --> 00:38:58.139 All human beings want three things, love, attention, 00:38:58.440 --> 00:39:03.079 and respect. And that has stayed with me all 00:39:03.079 --> 00:39:06.820 the decades since that time. And I've always 00:39:06.820 --> 00:39:10.920 come to the understanding, no matter who I faced, 00:39:11.099 --> 00:39:13.239 no matter what had been done, no matter what 00:39:13.239 --> 00:39:17.099 the issue was, that we were talking about people 00:39:17.099 --> 00:39:20.360 who had not received love and attention and respect 00:39:20.360 --> 00:39:27.110 in their lives. There is a way to provide that, 00:39:27.289 --> 00:39:38.829 to model that, to be that. And it can, it seems 00:39:38.829 --> 00:39:41.730 to me, make all the difference in the world if 00:39:41.730 --> 00:39:45.789 we recognize that those broken people, you mentioned 00:39:45.789 --> 00:39:49.389 Bryan Stevenson, my dear friend. Broken people 00:39:49.389 --> 00:39:52.469 are people who have never had love and attention 00:39:52.469 --> 00:39:57.269 and respect in their lives. Well, thank you, 00:39:57.289 --> 00:40:00.389 Mike. So we're at the end of our time. As we 00:40:00.389 --> 00:40:02.630 close, is there anything else you'd like to add 00:40:02.630 --> 00:40:05.610 or say? Maybe a word of encouragement to all 00:40:05.610 --> 00:40:08.630 our listeners about carrying on the work of justice 00:40:08.630 --> 00:40:15.469 and peace? Yes. Love people. People want to be 00:40:15.469 --> 00:40:18.769 loved. And they want to be respected and they 00:40:18.769 --> 00:40:22.949 want attention paid. And I adore what you're 00:40:22.949 --> 00:40:26.929 doing with this show, John. And I listened with 00:40:26.929 --> 00:40:31.510 great love to your interview with Joan Baez. 00:40:31.909 --> 00:40:37.190 Wasn't that fun? Oh, God. She read a poem and 00:40:37.190 --> 00:40:42.650 then sang me a song. Life is good. And she's 00:40:42.650 --> 00:40:46.210 all concerned about it afterwards. I know she's 00:40:46.210 --> 00:40:49.730 not listening, so I'll say this. I hope I don't 00:40:49.730 --> 00:40:52.530 think I supported nonviolence enough. I said, 00:40:52.550 --> 00:40:55.969 no, you were great. You shared with us your struggle. 00:40:56.050 --> 00:40:58.170 Remember when she said she has a short temper? 00:40:58.510 --> 00:41:01.230 It was great. It was great. Well, you must know 00:41:01.230 --> 00:41:04.489 her. She's just an incredible human being. She 00:41:04.489 --> 00:41:08.289 is. So many of our friends, you know. One thing 00:41:08.289 --> 00:41:11.090 people don't know, I mean, you and I have met 00:41:11.090 --> 00:41:13.309 the greatest people in the country in this world. 00:41:13.610 --> 00:41:17.400 It's just. I mean, Thomas Merton was right. You 00:41:17.400 --> 00:41:19.480 get involved with this, and it's the relationships. 00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:22.900 Like Alain Gréjean, I mean, Bryan Stevenson. 00:41:22.900 --> 00:41:25.960 Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. These are saints that'll 00:41:25.960 --> 00:41:27.719 live on in history. Absolutely. And they're our 00:41:27.719 --> 00:41:30.579 friends. Absolutely. Like Chris Panette, too. 00:41:30.860 --> 00:41:34.159 Yeah, yeah, yeah. You remember what I said when 00:41:34.159 --> 00:41:38.619 you were there, when we had this small meeting 00:41:38.619 --> 00:41:43.739 around Jim's passing, Jim Lawson's passing? And 00:41:43.739 --> 00:41:46.659 I said, I'll never forget. We were in a situation 00:41:46.659 --> 00:41:51.039 where Jim was talking to a man who was just intent 00:41:51.039 --> 00:41:56.900 on supporting the death penalty because death 00:41:56.900 --> 00:42:01.219 for this particular person was appropriate. And 00:42:01.219 --> 00:42:06.360 Jim said, this person behaved in a manner that's 00:42:06.360 --> 00:42:09.480 unacceptable. Does that suggest you mean that 00:42:09.480 --> 00:42:16.480 God made a mistake? Yeah. I thought, that's pretty 00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:20.039 good. Yeah, it is. Jim Lawson and all our great 00:42:20.039 --> 00:42:22.980 friends. That's reason enough to keep going. 00:42:23.320 --> 00:42:26.400 Mike Farrell, thank you so much for speaking 00:42:26.400 --> 00:42:28.780 with me today, and maybe we can do it again someday. 00:42:29.179 --> 00:42:31.639 Let me just conclude here and just say thank 00:42:31.639 --> 00:42:34.760 you to all our listeners for being... on this 00:42:34.760 --> 00:42:37.539 episode of the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. You 00:42:37.539 --> 00:42:40.159 can hear many other podcasts and find other upcoming 00:42:40.159 --> 00:42:44.960 Zoom programs at BeatitudesCenter .org and there 00:42:44.960 --> 00:42:47.880 also offer a donation to support this free work 00:42:47.880 --> 00:42:51.050 and maybe... Receive our, if you want to sign 00:42:51.050 --> 00:42:53.570 up to get our free e -blast with news about upcoming 00:42:53.570 --> 00:42:57.309 podcasts and Zooms. And if you can, leave some 00:42:57.309 --> 00:43:00.550 feedback or at least tell everybody you know 00:43:00.550 --> 00:43:03.650 about the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. May the God 00:43:03.650 --> 00:43:06.789 of peace bless you all. Keep on following the 00:43:06.789 --> 00:43:09.590 Nonviolent Jesus and see you next time. Thanks 00:43:09.590 --> 00:43:13.510 again, Mike Farrell. Mike, great pleasure, John. 00:43:13.570 --> 00:43:15.849 I really enjoyed this. Thank you. Thank you.