WEBVTT 00:00:17.870 --> 00:00:20.989 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:20.989 --> 00:00:23.710 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:23.710 --> 00:00:26.429 with legendary civil rights leader Andrew Young. 00:00:26.609 --> 00:00:31.429 This is a project of www .beatitudecenter .org, 00:00:31.469 --> 00:00:34.729 where you can find many other podcasts and regular 00:00:34.729 --> 00:00:38.109 Zoom programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and 00:00:38.109 --> 00:00:40.990 practicing nonviolence and working for a more 00:00:40.990 --> 00:00:44.719 just, more nonviolent world. So we always begin 00:00:44.719 --> 00:00:47.159 here with a little prayer. So I invite everyone 00:00:47.159 --> 00:00:51.460 just to take a deep breath and to relax and to 00:00:51.460 --> 00:00:55.380 recenter yourself. And let's all together enter 00:00:55.380 --> 00:00:58.619 into the presence of the God of peace who loves 00:00:58.619 --> 00:01:03.039 you infinitely and everyone everywhere. And let's 00:01:03.039 --> 00:01:05.540 welcome the risen nonviolent Jesus here with 00:01:05.540 --> 00:01:09.659 us and ask for the grace to follow him more faithfully 00:01:09.659 --> 00:01:15.159 and do God's will. Beloved God, thank you for 00:01:15.159 --> 00:01:17.859 all the blessings of life, love, and peace that 00:01:17.859 --> 00:01:21.200 you give us. Be with us now as I reflect with 00:01:21.200 --> 00:01:24.840 Andrew Young on your call to follow the nonviolent 00:01:24.840 --> 00:01:27.599 Jesus and work for a more nonviolent, more just 00:01:27.599 --> 00:01:31.659 world. Bless us, inspire us, disarm us, strengthen 00:01:31.659 --> 00:01:34.700 us, and send us out to do your will, to do our 00:01:34.700 --> 00:01:38.609 part to help end violence. poverty, racism, greed, 00:01:38.950 --> 00:01:42.290 injustice, war, fascism, nuclear weapons, and 00:01:42.290 --> 00:01:44.810 environmental destruction, that we might be your 00:01:44.810 --> 00:01:48.569 holy peacemakers and welcome your reign of universal 00:01:48.569 --> 00:01:52.530 love, nonviolence, and peace on earth. Amen. 00:01:53.870 --> 00:01:57.489 We will be able to speed up that day when all 00:01:57.489 --> 00:02:01.049 of God's children, black men and white men, Jews 00:02:01.049 --> 00:02:04.370 and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will 00:02:04.370 --> 00:02:07.730 be able to join hands and sing in the words of 00:02:07.730 --> 00:02:11.310 the old Negro spiritual, free at last, free at 00:02:11.310 --> 00:02:14.789 last, thank God Almighty, we are free at last. 00:02:19.629 --> 00:02:22.590 It's a great blessing to welcome civil rights 00:02:22.590 --> 00:02:25.289 leader Andrew Young here to the Nonviolent Jesus 00:02:25.289 --> 00:02:29.419 podcast. He was Dr. King's right -hand man, his 00:02:29.419 --> 00:02:31.419 number one lieutenant, and of course the executive 00:02:31.419 --> 00:02:34.539 director of SCLC, the Southern Christian Leadership 00:02:34.539 --> 00:02:38.580 Conference, an ordained UCC minister. He was 00:02:38.580 --> 00:02:41.199 elected to Congress, then later named ambassador 00:02:41.199 --> 00:02:44.240 to the UN, and then was elected mayor of Atlanta 00:02:44.240 --> 00:02:47.719 for two terms. It's hard to describe all that 00:02:47.719 --> 00:02:50.900 Andy has done, but he was recently featured in 00:02:50.900 --> 00:02:56.850 a two -hour documentary by Rachel Maddow. 100 00:02:56.850 --> 00:02:59.770 honorary degrees from university and colleges 00:02:59.770 --> 00:03:04.090 and many other awards, and I recommend his autobiography 00:03:04.090 --> 00:03:07.150 called An Easy Burden. He was born in New Orleans 00:03:07.150 --> 00:03:10.110 in 1932 and currently lives in Atlanta with his 00:03:10.110 --> 00:03:12.969 wife Carolyn. He's the father of three daughters 00:03:12.969 --> 00:03:16.270 and one son, a grandfather of nine, and a great 00:03:16.270 --> 00:03:19.689 -grandfather of one. Andrew Young, welcome to 00:03:19.689 --> 00:03:23.219 the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. Now it's a great 00:03:23.219 --> 00:03:27.919 -grandfather of two. Congratulations. So I'm 00:03:27.919 --> 00:03:30.719 hoping to broadcast this. Time marches on. Yeah. 00:03:31.139 --> 00:03:33.819 I'm hoping this will be broadcast on Dr. King's 00:03:33.819 --> 00:03:36.199 holiday. So I thought we could talk about your 00:03:36.199 --> 00:03:39.419 friend and boss, Dr. King. I've been studying 00:03:39.419 --> 00:03:42.439 him and reading him all my life. He changed my 00:03:42.439 --> 00:03:45.979 life when I was a boy at his death. And I've 00:03:45.979 --> 00:03:48.580 been trying to follow his teachings and yours. 00:03:50.949 --> 00:03:53.550 Primarily that has meant for me, Andy, spending 00:03:53.550 --> 00:03:57.870 45 years teaching the nonviolence of Jesus through 00:03:57.870 --> 00:03:59.669 the Fellowship of Reconciliation and many other 00:03:59.669 --> 00:04:02.229 groups. So I'd like to ask, as we begin, from 00:04:02.229 --> 00:04:05.710 your perspective, what did you learn about nonviolence 00:04:05.710 --> 00:04:10.090 from Dr. King? What does it mean for you? Well, 00:04:10.110 --> 00:04:15.430 I learned about nonviolence from Dr. King, but 00:04:15.430 --> 00:04:22.529 I guess... Even before I had met Dr. King, I 00:04:22.529 --> 00:04:27.589 had learned about nonviolence from my Quaker 00:04:27.589 --> 00:04:33.029 professors in seminary. And people like Bayard 00:04:33.029 --> 00:04:38.709 Rustin that had been teaching nonviolence all 00:04:38.709 --> 00:04:51.040 over the world. But that was 1952. When I was 00:04:51.040 --> 00:04:57.180 in seminary and I was surrounded by people who 00:04:57.180 --> 00:05:04.019 were raised in a nonviolent faith. And I mean, 00:05:04.040 --> 00:05:06.519 there were several of my professors who were 00:05:06.519 --> 00:05:15.300 Quakers for life. And it was very easy on a seminary 00:05:15.300 --> 00:05:20.129 campus. to surround yourself with people who 00:05:20.129 --> 00:05:23.310 were lovers of peace and lovers of humanity and 00:05:23.310 --> 00:05:31.829 lovers of Jesus Christ. And it was a good preparation. 00:05:32.250 --> 00:05:37.310 And I think that the nonviolent Jesus that I 00:05:37.310 --> 00:05:42.970 learned about from my professors and from Dr. 00:05:43.149 --> 00:05:49.100 King, lived in a world very much like ours, that 00:05:49.100 --> 00:05:52.680 it was not a peaceful world. It was not a loving 00:05:52.680 --> 00:05:57.560 world. It was a world where Herod killed all 00:05:57.560 --> 00:06:01.060 of the babies trying to kill Jesus. It was a 00:06:01.060 --> 00:06:07.040 horrible place. And it was in the midst of that 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:14.100 kind of world that God sent his son. And here 00:06:14.100 --> 00:06:19.040 it is. thousands of years later, and we are still 00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:23.100 talking about his message. And we're still realizing 00:06:23.100 --> 00:06:29.800 that what was revealed in Jesus of Nazareth and 00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:32.319 is present very clearly in our New Testament 00:06:32.319 --> 00:06:41.540 is relevant and powerfully important for us dealing 00:06:41.540 --> 00:06:46.310 with the day -to -day crises of our lives. Did 00:06:46.310 --> 00:06:50.029 you and Dr. King talk about Jesus as being nonviolent? 00:06:51.649 --> 00:06:56.930 Or was it presumed? See, I never heard him use 00:06:56.930 --> 00:07:00.470 that word to describe Jesus, but I'm sure he 00:07:00.470 --> 00:07:06.230 did. No, I tell you, we didn't talk about Jesus 00:07:06.230 --> 00:07:10.790 so much as we prayed about Jesus and we prayed 00:07:10.790 --> 00:07:15.970 to be like Jesus. I mean, it was a very prayerful 00:07:15.970 --> 00:07:19.269 movement because we didn't know what we were 00:07:19.269 --> 00:07:23.430 doing. I mean, Martin Luther King, I like to 00:07:23.430 --> 00:07:29.610 remind people that he was a young minister, had 00:07:29.610 --> 00:07:34.230 just been ordained, and he was not even in the 00:07:34.230 --> 00:07:37.550 meeting in Montgomery. He was in the back in 00:07:37.550 --> 00:07:42.839 the mimeograph room. running off the flyers about 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:46.740 a bus boycott when the meeting was going on in 00:07:46.740 --> 00:07:50.259 the front of his church. They came to a kind 00:07:50.259 --> 00:07:54.040 of stumbling block between trying to decide whose 00:07:54.040 --> 00:07:58.319 turn it was to be the spokesman for that movement. 00:07:59.959 --> 00:08:02.839 And there was a disagreement between the Baptists 00:08:02.839 --> 00:08:05.540 and the Methodists. And the women in the church 00:08:05.540 --> 00:08:08.839 said, well, why don't we... Let this young man 00:08:08.839 --> 00:08:11.319 in the back be the spokesman for our first meeting. 00:08:12.680 --> 00:08:15.139 And he was not even in the meeting when they 00:08:15.139 --> 00:08:20.860 chose him. And he had less than an hour to prepare. 00:08:21.439 --> 00:08:24.660 It was almost 7 o 'clock. The mass meeting was 00:08:24.660 --> 00:08:27.839 at another church in another part of town at 00:08:27.839 --> 00:08:35.080 8 o 'clock. And he then was told that he was 00:08:35.080 --> 00:08:37.750 to be the spokesman. So there was no time to 00:08:37.750 --> 00:08:44.389 prepare. But his wife was pregnant and could 00:08:44.389 --> 00:08:47.509 not come. And so she asked the director of the 00:08:47.509 --> 00:08:51.970 choir at their church to record his speech for 00:08:51.970 --> 00:08:55.850 her. So that's how that happened. So we have 00:08:55.850 --> 00:09:02.230 a good recording. Yeah. And the amazing thing 00:09:02.230 --> 00:09:05.820 about that recording is... that when you hear 00:09:05.820 --> 00:09:10.779 him speak, and remember, he was running a mimeograph 00:09:10.779 --> 00:09:14.100 machine and was not even in a meeting. But in 00:09:14.100 --> 00:09:17.679 that speech, when he went to the next church 00:09:17.679 --> 00:09:23.919 and began to speak, you hear all of the themes 00:09:23.919 --> 00:09:28.519 and messages that propped up in his Nobel Prize 00:09:28.519 --> 00:09:33.000 speech and his speech at March on Washington. 00:09:35.509 --> 00:09:43.269 in Chicago, in Detroit. I mean, the nonviolent 00:09:43.269 --> 00:09:50.289 message was a part of his life. And I don't know 00:09:50.289 --> 00:09:53.429 that he ever talked specifically about nonviolence 00:09:53.429 --> 00:09:59.429 as nonviolence, a doctrine or theory, but he 00:09:59.429 --> 00:10:04.740 talked about the need to unite Montgomery. That 00:10:04.740 --> 00:10:08.919 had been fragmented by the fact that they've 00:10:08.919 --> 00:10:14.019 disrespected Rosa Parks and took her off the 00:10:14.019 --> 00:10:17.480 bus because she wanted to because she would not 00:10:17.480 --> 00:10:20.179 get up and give her seat to the white person. 00:10:22.139 --> 00:10:26.480 She was not hurt. And it was not an emotional 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:33.159 meeting, but it started. It was economic withdrawal 00:10:33.159 --> 00:10:39.080 campaign, which lasted for 381 days and ended 00:10:39.080 --> 00:10:45.360 up changing the nation. Yep. So that you see 00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:49.720 Jesus in action, though you might not hear his 00:10:49.720 --> 00:10:55.279 name. But you also did hear his name in almost 00:10:55.279 --> 00:10:59.159 every time Martin spoke. He was referring to. 00:10:59.799 --> 00:11:03.620 his relationship to Jesus of Nazareth. It's a 00:11:03.620 --> 00:11:08.200 spiritual mystery how the concept of nonviolence 00:11:08.200 --> 00:11:12.379 moves across the earth from person to person, 00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:14.879 heart to heart, and breast to breast, as we say. 00:11:16.100 --> 00:11:21.620 But, well, it popped into my head now that a 00:11:21.620 --> 00:11:24.860 song we used to sing in church, it's not with 00:11:24.860 --> 00:11:28.620 swords loud clashing. in the role of stirring 00:11:28.620 --> 00:11:33.960 drum, but through deeds of love and mercy, the 00:11:33.960 --> 00:11:36.179 heavenly kingdom comes. Oh, that's beautiful. 00:11:36.620 --> 00:11:39.460 Tell me how you met Dr. King and when you started 00:11:39.460 --> 00:11:42.399 to work with him and your early impressions of 00:11:42.399 --> 00:11:46.059 him. Our paths crossed several times. He came 00:11:46.059 --> 00:11:51.539 to speak in Atlanta and I was there, but I didn't 00:11:51.539 --> 00:11:55.279 go up to speak to him. I had heard him speak. 00:11:57.749 --> 00:12:02.649 in St. Louis at a meeting of Christian education 00:12:02.649 --> 00:12:06.070 directors of churches of different denominations. 00:12:06.809 --> 00:12:10.590 But again, I spoke to him, but everybody wanted 00:12:10.590 --> 00:12:14.649 to gather around him, but I didn't. I mean, I 00:12:14.649 --> 00:12:18.690 just spoke and told him what I thought of his 00:12:18.690 --> 00:12:25.700 speech. And it was almost a year later. When 00:12:25.700 --> 00:12:34.039 I was invited, I was asked to come to Talladega 00:12:34.039 --> 00:12:38.480 College in Alabama because he had been invited 00:12:38.480 --> 00:12:42.399 to speak at a Religious Emphasis Week program. 00:12:43.299 --> 00:12:45.960 And they were afraid that he was not going to 00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:48.799 be able to come. So they called me and asked 00:12:48.799 --> 00:12:54.200 me would I come in case he didn't show up. And 00:12:54.200 --> 00:12:58.039 we both showed up. And so instead of a speech 00:12:58.039 --> 00:13:03.740 or two speeches, we ended up having a dialogue 00:13:03.740 --> 00:13:09.100 with the professor. Well, he wasn't a professor 00:13:09.100 --> 00:13:13.159 then. He was a student. And it was led by a fraternity. 00:13:14.779 --> 00:13:21.460 But we talked for a couple of hours together. 00:13:22.330 --> 00:13:24.570 I don't remember what we talked about except 00:13:24.570 --> 00:13:30.870 that we didn't disagree, and we were finding 00:13:30.870 --> 00:13:33.610 different ways to say some of the same things. 00:13:34.029 --> 00:13:37.950 At the end of the meeting, my wife was with me, 00:13:38.049 --> 00:13:44.850 and we realized that his wife was not there because 00:13:44.850 --> 00:13:49.350 she had just delivered a baby, and I was there 00:13:49.350 --> 00:13:53.730 with my baby. Baby girl, both baby girls. And 00:13:53.730 --> 00:13:56.269 he invited us to stop by his house on the way 00:13:56.269 --> 00:13:59.389 back. We were driving back to Thomasville, Georgia, 00:13:59.549 --> 00:14:03.570 and we had to drive through Montgomery. And so 00:14:03.570 --> 00:14:07.610 we stopped off at his house to have dinner. But 00:14:07.610 --> 00:14:11.190 we never talked about we never talked about anything 00:14:11.190 --> 00:14:18.070 but our daughters. And I mean, he was a proud 00:14:18.070 --> 00:14:24.710 father and so was I. And then he invited you 00:14:24.710 --> 00:14:27.570 a few years later to join the staff of SEO? No, 00:14:27.570 --> 00:14:30.289 we didn't see each other for another two years. 00:14:31.769 --> 00:14:39.289 And I got a call. See, he lived a very difficult 00:14:39.289 --> 00:14:44.029 life. Yeah. And I was aware of it. And I was, 00:14:44.029 --> 00:14:46.990 by that time, I had moved to New York and was 00:14:46.990 --> 00:14:49.190 working with the National Council of Churches. 00:14:51.470 --> 00:14:55.669 in youth work. And I got a call from a friend 00:14:55.669 --> 00:15:00.950 of his because a foundation wanted to give him 00:15:00.950 --> 00:15:04.929 some money to do a voter registration project. 00:15:05.649 --> 00:15:11.450 And he had not been settled down enough to have 00:15:11.450 --> 00:15:19.669 a 501c3 clearance approval to receive a... a 00:15:19.669 --> 00:15:23.370 grant as a nonprofit corporation. He was still 00:15:23.370 --> 00:15:28.929 operating basically as pastor of no church because 00:15:28.929 --> 00:15:34.049 by that time he was leaving Montgomery and going 00:15:34.049 --> 00:15:39.850 back to pastor with his father. And I got this 00:15:39.850 --> 00:15:44.909 call and I ended up going to the United Church 00:15:44.909 --> 00:15:49.830 of Christ office and asking them. if they could 00:15:49.830 --> 00:15:56.309 find a way to give this money to one of their 00:15:56.309 --> 00:15:59.850 church organizations. And they ended up approving 00:15:59.850 --> 00:16:09.990 a grant to Dorchester Center in Georgia. And 00:16:09.990 --> 00:16:15.309 they approved it and said they would renovate 00:16:15.309 --> 00:16:18.259 some of the properties that the church had. across 00:16:18.259 --> 00:16:25.860 the South, and that they thought maybe I should 00:16:25.860 --> 00:16:30.179 leave New York and go back to Georgia and sort 00:16:30.179 --> 00:16:34.299 of be the administrator for that project. So 00:16:34.299 --> 00:16:38.440 I really ended up going back to his office in 00:16:38.440 --> 00:16:43.000 Atlanta before he got there. He had been stabbed 00:16:43.000 --> 00:16:48.490 and had been given some time to recover. studying 00:16:48.490 --> 00:16:54.529 in India and was not there. And I showed up with 00:16:54.529 --> 00:17:00.909 a grant and a project before he got back. And 00:17:00.909 --> 00:17:02.870 then when he got back, they arrested him and 00:17:02.870 --> 00:17:09.950 put him in jail in Reidsville, Georgia, because 00:17:09.950 --> 00:17:14.809 what they charged him with was driving in Georgia. 00:17:16.440 --> 00:17:24.420 With an expired Georgia license or Alabama license 00:17:24.420 --> 00:17:27.359 or something. But it was really nothing. It was 00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:31.279 trivial. And they just wanted an excuse to arrest 00:17:31.279 --> 00:17:33.900 him. So let me stop you there, Andy. I wanted 00:17:33.900 --> 00:17:37.140 to definitely ask you about Reidsville. And I 00:17:37.140 --> 00:17:39.180 want you to take a little time. And here's why. 00:17:41.230 --> 00:17:43.630 A couple of years ago, I did a great Zoom with 00:17:43.630 --> 00:17:46.049 a friend, probably your friend, Cornel West. 00:17:46.369 --> 00:17:49.990 And I was asking him about Dr. King. And he said 00:17:49.990 --> 00:17:53.430 to me, this was total news to me, that in the 00:17:53.430 --> 00:17:58.470 1970s, Daddy King said to Cornel, from now on, 00:17:58.529 --> 00:18:00.990 everything about Martin begins with Reidsville. 00:18:01.470 --> 00:18:04.410 And then last year I had Jonathan E. gone for 00:18:04.410 --> 00:18:07.329 a Zoom about his big new biography about Dr. 00:18:07.549 --> 00:18:10.509 King. And he told me that you called him after 00:18:10.509 --> 00:18:12.410 the book came out and congratulated him on the 00:18:12.410 --> 00:18:15.410 book and said you missed one thing, Reidsville. 00:18:16.200 --> 00:18:19.140 In other words, that whole experience of being 00:18:19.140 --> 00:18:21.460 in the station wagon all night long with the 00:18:21.460 --> 00:18:24.240 German shepherd and expecting to be shot and 00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:25.920 killed. It wasn't a station wagon. It was a police 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:28.940 wagon. The police wagon. But what happened there 00:18:28.940 --> 00:18:31.099 that he was bent over and then he was talking 00:18:31.099 --> 00:18:35.119 about the cross from then on? Why is that? Should 00:18:35.119 --> 00:18:38.400 that be the beginning of all our understanding 00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:42.220 of Dr. King? Because he was. He was really trying 00:18:42.220 --> 00:18:45.859 to ease his way out of the movement. He was leaving 00:18:45.859 --> 00:18:50.460 Montgomery, coming back to Atlanta, because he 00:18:50.460 --> 00:18:53.700 thought Atlanta would be more peaceful. So he's 00:18:53.700 --> 00:18:55.700 going to work with his father and everything's 00:18:55.700 --> 00:18:57.799 going to be easier? He was going to be the co 00:18:57.799 --> 00:19:01.839 -pastor with his father. Remember, he had already 00:19:01.839 --> 00:19:05.700 been jailed. He had already been stabbed. His 00:19:05.700 --> 00:19:11.000 home had been bombed. And then... And Reidsville 00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:16.819 was an attempt to scare the hell out of him, 00:19:16.900 --> 00:19:22.980 really, because they picked him up on the street. 00:19:23.839 --> 00:19:28.920 He was walking with students who were picketing 00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:32.019 riches, but he was just down there as support. 00:19:34.549 --> 00:19:38.329 And encouraging them. And the police from another 00:19:38.329 --> 00:19:41.869 county came in and picked him up off the street 00:19:41.869 --> 00:19:44.869 and took him with them. And nobody knew where 00:19:44.869 --> 00:19:48.849 he was. Well, he spent the night in the DeKalb 00:19:48.849 --> 00:19:52.190 County Jail, which is about 20 miles from where 00:19:52.190 --> 00:19:54.970 he was picked up. But then in the middle of the 00:19:54.970 --> 00:19:58.309 night, they put him in the back of this paddy 00:19:58.309 --> 00:20:03.809 wagon in chains. And with nothing but him and 00:20:03.809 --> 00:20:08.990 a police dog, a German shepherd. And there were 00:20:08.990 --> 00:20:12.450 no there were no expressways then. So riding 00:20:12.450 --> 00:20:16.569 down Reidsville is about 300 miles from Atlanta 00:20:16.569 --> 00:20:23.069 in winding roads through the country. And as 00:20:23.069 --> 00:20:25.470 he went around those curves and up and down those 00:20:25.470 --> 00:20:28.829 hills, he was rolling from side to side because 00:20:28.829 --> 00:20:32.779 he was in chains. And the German shepherd would 00:20:32.779 --> 00:20:37.180 growl. And I used to tell him, I said, you know, 00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:40.180 that German shepherd saved your life because 00:20:40.180 --> 00:20:44.440 you spent more time thinking about calming down 00:20:44.440 --> 00:20:48.019 the German shepherd. And it didn't leave you 00:20:48.019 --> 00:20:52.740 time to panic. But I said, you know, God works 00:20:52.740 --> 00:20:59.470 in mysterious ways. And that. You know, Steve 00:20:59.470 --> 00:21:03.690 Biko in South Africa lost his mind in the back 00:21:03.690 --> 00:21:09.730 of a paddy wagon like that and came out, you 00:21:09.730 --> 00:21:12.450 know, fighting the policeman and they beat him 00:21:12.450 --> 00:21:16.849 to death. There was a law tradition in Georgia 00:21:16.849 --> 00:21:21.829 of taking people in handcuffs in a paddy wagon, 00:21:21.950 --> 00:21:26.450 taking them out to a bridge or... Well, in this 00:21:26.450 --> 00:21:29.910 case, it was the Flint River, which runs across 00:21:29.910 --> 00:21:33.369 Georgia into the Chattahoochee and down into 00:21:33.369 --> 00:21:37.069 the Gulf of Mexico. And that was a notorious 00:21:37.069 --> 00:21:43.009 way of killing people and having their bodies 00:21:43.009 --> 00:21:48.009 disapposed of. And I'm sure that's what they 00:21:48.009 --> 00:21:52.170 wanted him to think. But he couldn't think about 00:21:52.170 --> 00:21:55.000 that so much. Because he kept trying to calm 00:21:55.000 --> 00:21:58.799 this German Shepherd down. Now, the irony of 00:21:58.799 --> 00:22:03.480 it is, and the beauty of it in some way, is that 00:22:03.480 --> 00:22:06.480 he had had a German Shepherd puppy, I mean a 00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:09.240 dog, as a boy when he was three or four years 00:22:09.240 --> 00:22:12.779 old. And so he grew up with a German Shepherd 00:22:12.779 --> 00:22:16.119 as his boyhood friend. And so he was not afraid 00:22:16.119 --> 00:22:21.279 of this dog. Gosh. So Daddy King told Cornell 00:22:21.279 --> 00:22:25.450 that... He was bent over that whole night in 00:22:25.450 --> 00:22:28.789 the paddy wagon. And that when they got him out, 00:22:28.930 --> 00:22:32.950 he couldn't even straighten up his back. And 00:22:32.950 --> 00:22:36.880 he said to his father, He immediately started 00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:38.980 talking about the cross and carrying the cross. 00:22:39.220 --> 00:22:42.640 And then Cornell was saying on our Zoom, in effect, 00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:45.380 from then on, every day he talked about the cross 00:22:45.380 --> 00:22:48.740 and that famous saying, unearned suffering love 00:22:48.740 --> 00:22:51.019 is redemptive, which seems to be in every speech 00:22:51.019 --> 00:22:54.259 he gave. Is that your impression, too? And by 00:22:54.259 --> 00:22:57.259 the way, tell me about that, because nobody talks 00:22:57.259 --> 00:22:59.359 about the cross anymore, but he talked about 00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:05.410 it all the time. Well, and but that was. I think 00:23:05.410 --> 00:23:12.529 that that was me. I was guilty of that. His daddy 00:23:12.529 --> 00:23:15.170 was guilty of that. And Cornel West would be 00:23:15.170 --> 00:23:18.210 guilty of that. But actually, as I remember, 00:23:18.390 --> 00:23:23.750 he never talked about the details of his death. 00:23:25.710 --> 00:23:34.569 But he would laugh and talk about death. And 00:23:34.569 --> 00:23:36.789 it was something that he talked a lot about, 00:23:36.910 --> 00:23:42.230 but never in sorrow or in fear. It was always 00:23:42.230 --> 00:23:49.930 in yuba. And it was so typical of his life that 00:23:49.930 --> 00:23:56.170 when he was finally killed and I was there, my 00:23:56.170 --> 00:24:03.720 reflection was back to Elijah. Going to heaven 00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:09.240 on a flaming chariot because the bullet hit his 00:24:09.240 --> 00:24:17.359 spinal cord and severed it. And because bullets 00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:21.160 go faster than the speed of sound, he probably 00:24:21.160 --> 00:24:24.660 never heard the bullet. And he probably never 00:24:24.660 --> 00:24:28.420 felt the pain because his spinal cord was severed. 00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:33.890 And he was laying there. With his pulse still 00:24:33.890 --> 00:24:40.490 beating. And I looked up over just beyond the 00:24:40.490 --> 00:24:44.230 Mississippi River in Memphis. And the first thing 00:24:44.230 --> 00:24:48.069 I thought of was Martin and made it to heaven 00:24:48.069 --> 00:24:54.109 in a flaming chariot. Yeah. And because that 00:24:54.109 --> 00:24:58.930 was something we used. I mean, we found a way 00:24:58.930 --> 00:25:05.839 to talk about death. in a context of humor and 00:25:05.839 --> 00:25:10.420 playfulness. It was never serious. It was never 00:25:10.420 --> 00:25:18.299 sad. It was, you know, you're going to die. There 00:25:18.299 --> 00:25:21.920 ain't no hiding place. You know, it went to the 00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:25.549 right. Went to the rock to find, hide my face, 00:25:25.589 --> 00:25:27.990 the rock to find out no hiding place. There's 00:25:27.990 --> 00:25:31.009 no hiding place down here. If you're born, man 00:25:31.009 --> 00:25:33.730 born of trouble is few days and full of trouble. 00:25:34.250 --> 00:25:37.210 And you almost look to your death as a blessing. 00:25:38.210 --> 00:25:42.390 It's so hard to even talk about all that you 00:25:42.390 --> 00:25:44.509 did in the civil rights movement with you and 00:25:44.509 --> 00:25:46.650 Martin and all your friends. And we don't have 00:25:46.650 --> 00:25:50.450 that much time, but. You know, the genius of 00:25:50.450 --> 00:25:53.589 you and the SCLC was, I think, in my opinion, 00:25:53.589 --> 00:25:56.089 your strategy after Reidsville, you go to Alabama, 00:25:56.470 --> 00:26:00.369 I mean Albany, and that didn't provoke a response. 00:26:00.430 --> 00:26:03.930 So you pick Birmingham, and then you pick Selma, 00:26:04.009 --> 00:26:07.549 and then you pick Chicago, and then there were 00:26:07.549 --> 00:26:10.650 other things, the Poor People's Campaign. We 00:26:10.650 --> 00:26:13.950 picked Birmingham, first of all. Yeah. Any memories 00:26:13.950 --> 00:26:15.869 about all of that you'd like to tell me about 00:26:15.869 --> 00:26:17.869 or something that's still vivid that would help 00:26:17.869 --> 00:26:21.569 me understand nonviolence and Jesus? There had 00:26:21.569 --> 00:26:27.549 been over 60 bombings of homes in Birmingham 00:26:27.549 --> 00:26:37.029 in the early 1960s, 1961 to 63. And in 1962, 00:26:37.089 --> 00:26:42.559 I think it was December the 16th. is the day 00:26:42.559 --> 00:26:45.799 I remember that Fred Shuttlesworth came to our 00:26:45.799 --> 00:26:50.960 office in Atlanta and said that his home had 00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:54.099 been bombed. It was a Monday and his home had 00:26:54.099 --> 00:26:58.940 been bombed that Sunday. And right after church 00:26:58.940 --> 00:27:03.019 and his house was next to the church and his 00:27:03.019 --> 00:27:07.039 house, you know, the gables were down on the 00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:13.450 ground. The house caved in as a result of the 00:27:13.450 --> 00:27:19.930 bomb thrown at the church. And he crawled out 00:27:19.930 --> 00:27:24.849 still dressed in his suit and tie and said that, 00:27:24.849 --> 00:27:29.250 you know, they can't kill me. They just as well 00:27:29.250 --> 00:27:31.930 quit trying. But he came to Atlanta the next 00:27:31.930 --> 00:27:36.289 day, that Sunday, that Monday, and asked Martin, 00:27:36.349 --> 00:27:40.380 said, we have got to do something. Not violent, 00:27:40.420 --> 00:27:43.440 but something more aggressive. We just can't 00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:46.039 sit back and wait for them to bomb our homes 00:27:46.039 --> 00:27:49.640 and blow up our churches. We need to find a way 00:27:49.640 --> 00:27:53.500 to make nonviolence more aggressive. And Martin 00:27:53.500 --> 00:27:56.559 said, well, that means you'd want a nonviolent 00:27:56.559 --> 00:28:01.539 movement. But there was an election coming up 00:28:01.539 --> 00:28:07.809 at the end of the month in January. He said, 00:28:07.829 --> 00:28:11.329 we don't want to do anything in an election time 00:28:11.329 --> 00:28:17.589 to get people all stirred up. But that'll give 00:28:17.589 --> 00:28:20.650 us time to prepare. And he turned to me and he 00:28:20.650 --> 00:28:22.869 said, Andy, do you know any white folks in Birmingham? 00:28:23.970 --> 00:28:26.430 And I said, I don't know any black folks in Birmingham. 00:28:26.630 --> 00:28:29.430 I said, I hardly been to Birmingham. You know, 00:28:29.430 --> 00:28:31.750 and he said, well, you got a month to see if 00:28:31.750 --> 00:28:37.079 you can find some. Wow. And I said, why me? And 00:28:37.079 --> 00:28:39.099 he said, well, you're comfortable talking to 00:28:39.099 --> 00:28:40.480 white people. You've been working with white 00:28:40.480 --> 00:28:46.259 people in New York. And he said, you won't get 00:28:46.259 --> 00:28:51.839 angry and upset. And he said, we need to set 00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:56.640 up a conversation with the white business community 00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:02.200 and churches and explain to them how a nonviolent 00:29:02.200 --> 00:29:05.920 movement works. and prepare them for the things 00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:10.500 that are to come. And he said that's, well, he 00:29:10.500 --> 00:29:13.240 didn't have to say it, but he did, that that's 00:29:13.240 --> 00:29:15.799 the most important part of a nonviolent movement. 00:29:16.359 --> 00:29:20.319 Now, that's also one of the reasons why our more 00:29:20.319 --> 00:29:23.920 recent nonviolent movements have not been as 00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:26.900 successful as they could have been, because we 00:29:26.900 --> 00:29:30.480 don't take the time before demonstrations to 00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:35.569 prepare for them. And we don't, it's not a judgment, 00:29:35.690 --> 00:29:40.430 but we didn't know about a nonviolent movement 00:29:40.430 --> 00:29:45.069 until George Floyd's death was on television 00:29:45.069 --> 00:29:48.950 in everybody's home for nine and a half minutes. 00:29:49.589 --> 00:29:52.109 And there was no time. People just went to the 00:29:52.109 --> 00:29:54.809 streets and started demonstrating. But we had 00:29:54.809 --> 00:30:02.740 time and we took the time in Birmingham. I set 00:30:02.740 --> 00:30:06.500 up a meeting with, well, I went to see the Episcopal 00:30:06.500 --> 00:30:10.240 bishop. And he agreed to meet with Martin and 00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:16.319 Ralph and Shuttlesworth. And then he agreed that 00:30:16.319 --> 00:30:19.599 he would create, he would bring a group of the 00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:22.900 business community and what we used to call the 00:30:22.900 --> 00:30:28.779 white power structure of the city together to 00:30:28.779 --> 00:30:32.259 meet with us. So all of this was going on during 00:30:32.259 --> 00:30:38.220 that January before the movement. So that's, 00:30:38.220 --> 00:30:41.519 it's just so amazing all that you did. That preparation 00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:45.299 is very important. We don't, since we don't have 00:30:45.299 --> 00:30:47.380 too much time. So then in those months leading 00:30:47.380 --> 00:30:50.640 up to March, you started the campaign marching 00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:52.779 through downtown Birmingham and you're calling 00:30:52.779 --> 00:30:56.490 for an end of segregation. And then the Good 00:30:56.490 --> 00:31:00.849 Friday. Before we got to that, we had the black 00:31:00.849 --> 00:31:04.809 community sit down and write a Birmingham manifesto. 00:31:05.190 --> 00:31:07.730 And they wrote their complaints to things that 00:31:07.730 --> 00:31:11.130 they thought were unjust. And we didn't do that. 00:31:11.190 --> 00:31:14.289 That was and Birmingham didn't have a lot of. 00:31:15.269 --> 00:31:17.589 Well, it didn't have a black college in Birmingham, 00:31:17.829 --> 00:31:20.930 I don't think. And so there were no there were 00:31:20.930 --> 00:31:24.109 very few black people with doctor degrees or. 00:31:24.750 --> 00:31:28.829 or no intellectuals hardly in this movement group. 00:31:29.630 --> 00:31:32.769 It was the doctor's wives and the minister's 00:31:32.769 --> 00:31:36.609 wives that brought much of the brainpower to 00:31:36.609 --> 00:31:44.509 it. But it was a profound document that we put 00:31:44.509 --> 00:31:48.869 in the Birmingham Post -Herald before we started 00:31:48.869 --> 00:31:52.990 marching to explain why we were going to be marching. 00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:01.039 The ministers then, even though we had talked 00:32:01.039 --> 00:32:05.740 to them, the white ministers, they wrote an answer, 00:32:05.859 --> 00:32:11.460 but blaming it all on Martin Luther King coming 00:32:11.460 --> 00:32:16.960 to stir up trouble, even after we had met with 00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:22.220 them. And Martin then wrote the letter from the 00:32:22.220 --> 00:32:29.059 Birmingham jail in jail. And it was written around 00:32:29.059 --> 00:32:33.140 the margins of the New York Times. And when they 00:32:33.140 --> 00:32:35.839 ran out of space in the New York Times front 00:32:35.839 --> 00:32:39.299 section, he started writing on toilet tissue. 00:32:41.220 --> 00:32:45.720 So you had three documents coming out of Birmingham. 00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:52.980 Actually, that's where one of our lawyers left 00:32:52.980 --> 00:32:57.700 Birmingham and went to Harvard. He was the one 00:32:57.700 --> 00:33:06.799 that wrote the papers about the books. I forget 00:33:06.799 --> 00:33:14.920 what they are now. Discrimination, the DEI or 00:33:14.920 --> 00:33:17.960 something like that. So let me ask you then, 00:33:18.039 --> 00:33:20.859 so the letter from the Birmingham jail, greatest 00:33:20.859 --> 00:33:24.180 documents in American history, and then the marches 00:33:24.180 --> 00:33:27.500 begin, and then Beville leads the children out 00:33:27.500 --> 00:33:29.700 there. I want to ask you about Double D Day, 00:33:29.799 --> 00:33:32.859 because when I was studying nonviolence, I think 00:33:32.859 --> 00:33:36.059 it's called Double D Day. So around May 2nd, 00:33:36.059 --> 00:33:40.140 we're talking 1963. Now the children are marching 00:33:40.140 --> 00:33:44.109 and marching in waves. The white police can't 00:33:44.109 --> 00:33:46.849 handle it and pulled Connor. And I was taught 00:33:46.849 --> 00:33:49.750 nonviolence in college at Duke in the 70s and 00:33:49.750 --> 00:33:52.529 the teachers building it all up. And it goes 00:33:52.529 --> 00:33:55.430 to this moment, what you guys call Double D Day. 00:33:55.650 --> 00:33:59.609 Tell me about that. Here come thousands of singing 00:33:59.609 --> 00:34:02.710 kids. Well, what happened? But the fire hoses 00:34:02.710 --> 00:34:06.869 were put down. Even when Martin was in jail, 00:34:07.109 --> 00:34:12.460 we started having... meetings in the churches 00:34:12.460 --> 00:34:18.460 after school. This was 62, 63. There wasn't much, 00:34:18.559 --> 00:34:22.400 you know, people didn't have money. There wasn't 00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:24.659 much television. People didn't own televisions. 00:34:24.679 --> 00:34:28.320 That's large numbers. And so we would put up 00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:31.239 movies. We would show movies. And we would have 00:34:31.239 --> 00:34:33.800 high school kids in the churches near the school. 00:34:34.139 --> 00:34:37.460 And we showed them the movie of the Birmingham, 00:34:37.739 --> 00:34:41.670 I mean of... the Montgomery Improvement Association, 00:34:42.070 --> 00:34:47.269 and of the sit -ins in Nashville, and of Gandhi's 00:34:47.269 --> 00:34:51.969 movement of independence in India with no violence. 00:34:52.389 --> 00:34:56.269 And so we had three movies, and for about three 00:34:56.269 --> 00:35:01.650 weeks, we showed movies to the students near 00:35:01.650 --> 00:35:07.250 the high schools. And so we trained them intellectually. 00:35:08.670 --> 00:35:13.329 to understand the meaning of nonviolence and 00:35:13.329 --> 00:35:16.889 to go through what we knew might be violence 00:35:16.889 --> 00:35:22.969 without fear or without hatred or anger. And 00:35:22.969 --> 00:35:27.670 it was almost like it became like a game. They 00:35:27.670 --> 00:35:30.250 were singing and they were, I mean, they were 00:35:30.250 --> 00:35:35.989 not afraid in the fire hoses, nor of the German 00:35:35.989 --> 00:35:44.579 shepherds. It was because they had had several 00:35:44.579 --> 00:35:50.980 weeks of discussion and training and understood 00:35:50.980 --> 00:35:56.260 that this was not an anger and frustration, that 00:35:56.260 --> 00:36:00.340 this was the joy of acting as though you were 00:36:00.340 --> 00:36:03.929 free. Even though you knew there would be consequences 00:36:03.929 --> 00:36:07.070 because others didn't want you to be free. So 00:36:07.070 --> 00:36:10.230 they marched to the fire hoses. Others didn't 00:36:10.230 --> 00:36:13.849 want you to act free. You were getting out of 00:36:13.849 --> 00:36:17.010 your place. And you were no longer the oppressed, 00:36:17.349 --> 00:36:23.230 downtrodden, sad people. You were singing freedom 00:36:23.230 --> 00:36:27.329 songs. Ain't gonna let nobody turn me around. 00:36:30.219 --> 00:36:35.800 The one that I, you know, let me see, how does 00:36:35.800 --> 00:36:41.719 that go? It's one of my favorite freedom songs, 00:36:41.840 --> 00:36:45.980 and I'm drawing a blank on it now. I love everybody. 00:36:46.300 --> 00:36:50.239 I love everybody in my heart. I feel the love 00:36:50.239 --> 00:36:52.980 of Jesus. I feel the love of Jesus in my heart. 00:36:53.340 --> 00:36:56.630 That's why you can't make me doubt him. I know 00:36:56.630 --> 00:36:59.050 too much about him. I have the love of Jesus 00:36:59.050 --> 00:37:02.869 in my heart. And so they would be marching, singing 00:37:02.869 --> 00:37:08.289 these freedom songs. And they sang them every 00:37:08.289 --> 00:37:11.489 night in church. And they sang them in jail. 00:37:11.869 --> 00:37:15.309 So nobody was sad. Nobody was depressed. It wasn't 00:37:15.309 --> 00:37:20.150 a time of despair. In fact, we had more people 00:37:20.150 --> 00:37:24.440 probably because... We had ministers assigned 00:37:24.440 --> 00:37:28.199 to go to jail with the young people, and many 00:37:28.199 --> 00:37:33.400 of them had revivals in the prisons and accepted 00:37:33.400 --> 00:37:37.719 young people as members of the church while they 00:37:37.719 --> 00:37:40.820 were in jail. Wow. Because there was Bible study 00:37:40.820 --> 00:37:45.300 and hymns, and all of this was a part—and discussions. 00:37:45.840 --> 00:37:48.960 And all of this was a part of growing up in Birmingham. 00:37:50.139 --> 00:37:54.579 So, indeed. Here we are today, all these years 00:37:54.579 --> 00:37:58.039 later, and we're honoring Dr. King and you and 00:37:58.039 --> 00:38:01.320 everybody in the movement and the power of nonviolence 00:38:01.320 --> 00:38:03.780 that you showed the world. And we're in this 00:38:03.780 --> 00:38:08.179 terrible time. And so my general question is, 00:38:08.199 --> 00:38:11.219 as we honor Dr. King and learn from you and the 00:38:11.219 --> 00:38:14.639 movement, what suggestions do you have for all 00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:18.920 of us now in these times as we try to go forward 00:38:18.920 --> 00:38:22.010 and build nonviolent movements to confront? White 00:38:22.010 --> 00:38:25.389 supremacy, racism, permanent warfare, poverty, 00:38:25.690 --> 00:38:30.590 greed, nuclear weapons, gun violence, catastrophic 00:38:30.590 --> 00:38:33.949 climate change. The list goes on and on. And 00:38:33.949 --> 00:38:35.969 especially what would you encourage young people 00:38:35.969 --> 00:38:39.070 to do? So some general suggestions to our listeners 00:38:39.070 --> 00:38:42.349 about Karen. You know, I think that I think in 00:38:42.349 --> 00:38:45.329 Martin's preaching, he gave us a number of things. 00:38:45.409 --> 00:38:48.590 One, he said that black men and women in slavery 00:38:48.590 --> 00:38:56.059 had. sometimes more faith than the prophets of 00:38:56.059 --> 00:39:01.460 the Bible. That Jeremiah raised questions. Is 00:39:01.460 --> 00:39:05.199 there no bomb in Gilead? Is there no position 00:39:05.199 --> 00:39:10.239 there? But black men and women in slavery turned 00:39:10.239 --> 00:39:13.940 Jeremiah's question mark into an exclamation 00:39:13.940 --> 00:39:18.280 point. And they sang, there is a bomb in Gilead 00:39:18.280 --> 00:39:21.550 that makes the wounded whole. There's a balm 00:39:21.550 --> 00:39:24.869 in Gilead that heals the sin sick soul. And so 00:39:24.869 --> 00:39:27.489 when I get discouraged and think my works in 00:39:27.489 --> 00:39:31.409 vain, then I know the Holy Spirit revives my 00:39:31.409 --> 00:39:34.789 soul again, because there is a balm in Gilead 00:39:34.789 --> 00:39:40.150 that makes the wounded whole. And Martin had 00:39:40.150 --> 00:39:46.289 a poetic eloquence about his preaching that gave 00:39:46.289 --> 00:39:52.179 it additional power. He was speaking biblically, 00:39:52.280 --> 00:39:57.179 but he was mixing it with the songs and the faith 00:39:57.179 --> 00:40:02.440 and the suffering of Black people, you know, 00:40:02.440 --> 00:40:15.320 throughout our history. And it created a spiritual 00:40:15.320 --> 00:40:23.130 power and a spiritual awakening. That puts all 00:40:23.130 --> 00:40:26.150 of the suffering in perspective. In fact, it 00:40:26.150 --> 00:40:28.730 lifts you up above the suffering of this earth 00:40:28.730 --> 00:40:32.809 and allows you to look forward to the kingdom 00:40:32.809 --> 00:40:37.130 of God and the life to come. So you said that 00:40:37.130 --> 00:40:40.110 in the HBO documentary, King in the Wilderness, 00:40:40.389 --> 00:40:43.690 where you talked about the Poor People's Campaign 00:40:43.690 --> 00:40:46.690 in Vietnam, and then you're going to Memphis. 00:40:47.480 --> 00:40:49.800 And there you said something I never heard before, 00:40:49.880 --> 00:40:53.260 that by the time of Memphis, Martin was no longer 00:40:53.260 --> 00:40:56.400 speaking and thinking politically so much as 00:40:56.400 --> 00:41:01.340 thinking and speaking spiritually, even as a 00:41:01.340 --> 00:41:03.559 movement organizer. Is that what you were getting 00:41:03.559 --> 00:41:07.880 at? Yeah, very much so. I mean, it was always 00:41:07.880 --> 00:41:12.320 a spiritual movement that incidentally had political 00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:16.699 implications. For instance, I went with him. 00:41:17.449 --> 00:41:22.789 When he won the Nobel Peace Prize, President 00:41:22.789 --> 00:41:27.630 Johnson was pretty low. And because he was bogged 00:41:27.630 --> 00:41:30.449 down with the war in Vietnam. And we went to 00:41:30.449 --> 00:41:33.590 see him. And our appointment was for something 00:41:33.590 --> 00:41:36.670 like four in the afternoon. And we got there 00:41:36.670 --> 00:41:40.010 early. But we didn't get to see President Johnson 00:41:40.010 --> 00:41:44.889 until after six. Because the Vietnam hawks. were 00:41:44.889 --> 00:41:47.889 in the Oval Office beating up on him, trying 00:41:47.889 --> 00:41:51.389 to get him to escalate. And we met with the vice 00:41:51.389 --> 00:41:53.650 president and the district attorney, I mean, 00:41:53.670 --> 00:41:56.969 the attorney general in the Justice Department. 00:41:57.510 --> 00:42:01.269 And when we went over to the president's office, 00:42:01.530 --> 00:42:07.489 they were coming out. But we were two hours late. 00:42:08.250 --> 00:42:11.469 And he was, I mean, President Johnson was very 00:42:11.469 --> 00:42:17.969 depressed. And he didn't disagree. Everything 00:42:17.969 --> 00:42:22.030 Martin said, he said, I agree with you, Dr. King. 00:42:22.110 --> 00:42:27.190 I just don't have the power. And he must have 00:42:27.190 --> 00:42:30.050 said that 10 times because everything Martin 00:42:30.050 --> 00:42:33.150 raised the question about, we didn't fuss at 00:42:33.150 --> 00:42:35.530 him about Vietnam. We were talking about feeding 00:42:35.530 --> 00:42:38.730 the hungry, clothing the naked, healing the sick, 00:42:38.909 --> 00:42:41.530 setting at liberty those who were oppressed. 00:42:42.430 --> 00:42:48.889 It was a poor people's campaign. And when we 00:42:48.889 --> 00:42:55.730 left there, we did everything but pray together. 00:42:56.889 --> 00:43:01.030 But when we left, I was thinking that, well, 00:43:01.130 --> 00:43:05.369 I was thinking that Dr. King was tired and that 00:43:05.369 --> 00:43:10.130 he needed a sabbatical. And I said, Dr. King. 00:43:10.880 --> 00:43:14.659 I said, you know, Martin, you, the president's 00:43:14.659 --> 00:43:17.599 right. You really need to take, this was December. 00:43:18.300 --> 00:43:21.659 I said, you really need to take, you know, six 00:43:21.659 --> 00:43:28.059 months off or so. And just get this movement 00:43:28.059 --> 00:43:33.519 together in your mind. And he said, no. I said, 00:43:33.559 --> 00:43:35.639 well, what you going to do? He said, we got to 00:43:35.639 --> 00:43:39.119 get the president some power. And I said something 00:43:39.119 --> 00:43:43.159 else, and he said, no, you're wrong. We've got 00:43:43.159 --> 00:43:45.619 to get the president some power. So you went 00:43:45.619 --> 00:43:50.980 to Selma. Everything I said, his answer was, 00:43:51.119 --> 00:43:53.019 no, we're going to get the president some power. 00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:58.980 Wow. And then Mrs. Boynton showed up, you know, 00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:03.380 just before Christmas and invited us to come 00:44:03.380 --> 00:44:06.139 to Selma. So we're running out of time here, 00:44:06.219 --> 00:44:11.400 Andy. We could talk so much and maybe we can 00:44:11.400 --> 00:44:15.239 do this again someday about then Selma and Chicago 00:44:15.239 --> 00:44:19.739 and the Poor People's Campaign and Vietnam and 00:44:19.739 --> 00:44:22.920 then Memphis. Jim Lawson and I used to talk about 00:44:22.920 --> 00:44:26.500 what Martin said in those last days in Memphis. 00:44:26.599 --> 00:44:29.280 I want to ask you, because I only learned it 00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:32.840 about 10 years ago, that Jim said Martin stood 00:44:32.840 --> 00:44:35.519 up there one night and announced his definition 00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:39.880 of hope. In Memphis, Martin says, hope is the 00:44:39.880 --> 00:44:43.539 final refusal to give up. And I think that's 00:44:43.539 --> 00:44:47.440 brilliant, original. I'm not giving up. In other 00:44:47.440 --> 00:44:50.800 words, it's such a practical definition. And 00:44:50.800 --> 00:44:52.679 I think that's very helpful today. I wonder, 00:44:52.800 --> 00:44:56.239 do you remember that? And what keeps you hopeful? 00:44:56.380 --> 00:44:59.159 And what words of encouragement do you have for 00:44:59.159 --> 00:45:02.699 hope? folks to be hopeful, to be in it, the struggle 00:45:02.699 --> 00:45:05.280 for the long haul, to keep following the nonviolent 00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:10.420 Jesus for life. I'm glad you said that because 00:45:10.420 --> 00:45:15.320 I don't remember that. I remember being in the 00:45:15.320 --> 00:45:22.280 church, but I also remember that he was really 00:45:22.280 --> 00:45:27.400 sick. I mean, he had a fever and he really didn't 00:45:27.400 --> 00:45:30.280 want to go out. And he said he would just go 00:45:30.280 --> 00:45:33.960 to the church because it was pouring down rain 00:45:33.960 --> 00:45:36.539 and the church was packed with people and they 00:45:36.539 --> 00:45:39.239 were standing outside in the rain to hear him. 00:45:39.699 --> 00:45:44.940 And he got carried away and gave that speech, 00:45:45.019 --> 00:45:49.619 which in many ways predicted his own death the 00:45:49.619 --> 00:45:53.030 next day. I'm not sure that he spoke that phrase 00:45:53.030 --> 00:45:55.389 at that speech at the Mason Temple. You know, 00:45:55.429 --> 00:45:57.349 I've been to the mountaintop. But it was in one 00:45:57.349 --> 00:46:00.329 of those speeches in that week or two. And Jim 00:46:00.329 --> 00:46:03.670 said he heard it. But what gives you hope, Andy? 00:46:04.250 --> 00:46:06.949 And how have you been able to maintain your hope 00:46:06.949 --> 00:46:09.170 all these years? And what advice do you have 00:46:09.170 --> 00:46:12.889 for me and our listeners about hope? You know, 00:46:12.929 --> 00:46:20.000 I'm not sure. And I've never thought about it, 00:46:20.059 --> 00:46:25.000 but I think that what I learned from Martin King 00:46:25.000 --> 00:46:30.260 was what he learned from his father and his grandfather 00:46:30.260 --> 00:46:35.800 and his grandmother. And it's the history of 00:46:35.800 --> 00:46:39.539 a people who, going all the way back to the book 00:46:39.539 --> 00:46:43.260 of Genesis and throughout the New Testament, 00:46:43.380 --> 00:46:51.449 are... constantly reminded of visions of a way 00:46:51.449 --> 00:46:55.909 out of no way. I mean, hope when there's nothing 00:46:55.909 --> 00:47:03.289 to be hopeful about. Suddenly, and he would use 00:47:03.289 --> 00:47:07.349 hymns, truth forever on the scaffold, wrong forever 00:47:07.349 --> 00:47:11.309 on the throne. Yet that scaffold sways the future 00:47:11.309 --> 00:47:14.940 for behind the dim unknown. Standeth God within 00:47:14.940 --> 00:47:18.579 the shadows, keeping watch above his own. And 00:47:18.579 --> 00:47:24.239 we have grown up. I mean, I'm 93 years old now, 00:47:24.360 --> 00:47:26.900 and I've been singing these songs since I was 00:47:26.900 --> 00:47:30.699 three. And it's not something I have to dream 00:47:30.699 --> 00:47:34.940 up. It's something that comes up in moments of 00:47:34.940 --> 00:47:39.980 despair and moments when everybody else is giving 00:47:39.980 --> 00:47:46.940 up. You see, mine eyes have seen the glory of 00:47:46.940 --> 00:47:51.119 the coming of the Lord. He's stamping out the 00:47:51.119 --> 00:47:53.360 vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored. 00:47:53.800 --> 00:47:57.340 He has loosed his faithful lightning from his 00:47:57.340 --> 00:48:00.159 terrible swift sword. His truth is marching on. 00:48:00.780 --> 00:48:04.960 You know, glory, hallelujah. Glory, hallelujah. 00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:09.059 And I mean, I don't know how many times I heard 00:48:09.059 --> 00:48:11.280 Martin say that, but there was an extra passion. 00:48:11.869 --> 00:48:15.809 When he said it in Mississippi, out in front 00:48:15.809 --> 00:48:28.449 of the police station where Cheney and Schwerner 00:48:28.449 --> 00:48:35.710 and Goodman were killed, and the police were 00:48:35.710 --> 00:48:39.070 around there still making fun of the fact that... 00:48:40.269 --> 00:48:43.610 They were killed. When Ralph Abernathy prayed 00:48:43.610 --> 00:48:48.809 there, he included in his prayer, the guilty 00:48:48.809 --> 00:48:51.650 parties are right here within the speaking, within 00:48:51.650 --> 00:48:56.170 the sound of our voice. And somebody in the background, 00:48:56.409 --> 00:49:00.010 whom I didn't know and didn't hear, said, you're 00:49:00.010 --> 00:49:06.389 damn right. But he kept on praying. And we marched 00:49:06.389 --> 00:49:11.760 away from their singing. One of our favorite 00:49:11.760 --> 00:49:14.219 songs, Ain't Gonna Let Nobody Turn Me Around. 00:49:15.360 --> 00:49:18.980 Keep on marching, keep on walking, marching up 00:49:18.980 --> 00:49:22.300 to freedom land. Well, that's a good way to end, 00:49:22.400 --> 00:49:25.079 and we'll all keep trying to do that. I just 00:49:25.079 --> 00:49:27.280 want to thank you again for this great blessing, 00:49:27.539 --> 00:49:29.800 Reverend Andrew Young, for speaking with me today. 00:49:30.650 --> 00:49:32.429 Let me thank you, friends, for listening to the 00:49:32.429 --> 00:49:36.369 Nonviolent Jesus podcast. You can hear more podcasts 00:49:36.369 --> 00:49:39.869 and find other upcoming Zoom programs at BeatitudeCenter 00:49:39.869 --> 00:49:42.949 .org. And you can sign up there to receive a 00:49:42.949 --> 00:49:45.909 free newsletter about other upcoming podcasts 00:49:45.909 --> 00:49:49.309 and Zooms and make a donation for this free work 00:49:49.309 --> 00:49:52.530 if you want. May the God of peace bless you all. 00:49:52.630 --> 00:49:55.369 Keep on following the nonviolent Jesus on the 00:49:55.369 --> 00:49:57.869 freedom road to peace. See you next time.