WEBVTT 00:00:14.349 --> 00:00:17.129 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:17.129 --> 00:00:19.589 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:19.589 --> 00:00:23.370 with my friend Robert Ellsberg, author and editor, 00:00:23.710 --> 00:00:27.250 publisher of Orbis Books. We're hoping this will 00:00:27.250 --> 00:00:29.329 broadcast at the beginning of the new year, so 00:00:29.329 --> 00:00:31.989 Happy New Year, everybody. This is a project 00:00:31.989 --> 00:00:35.009 of BeatitudesCenter .org, where you can find 00:00:35.009 --> 00:00:38.229 many other podcasts. and regular Zoom programs 00:00:38.229 --> 00:00:42.049 on the nonviolence of Jesus and practicing nonviolence 00:00:42.049 --> 00:00:45.109 and working for a more just, more nonviolent 00:00:45.109 --> 00:00:48.270 world. So let's begin as usual with a little 00:00:48.270 --> 00:00:50.649 prayer. So I invite everyone, wherever you are, 00:00:50.710 --> 00:00:54.969 just to take a deep breath and just to relax 00:00:54.969 --> 00:00:58.899 and to recenter yourself. And enter into the 00:00:58.899 --> 00:01:01.759 presence of the God of peace who loves you infinitely 00:01:01.759 --> 00:01:06.239 and personally and everyone everywhere. And let's 00:01:06.239 --> 00:01:08.700 welcome the risen nonviolent Jesus here with 00:01:08.700 --> 00:01:11.879 us. Just take a moment to ask for whatever graces 00:01:11.879 --> 00:01:15.519 we need to follow the nonviolent Jesus ever more 00:01:15.519 --> 00:01:18.620 faithfully in this new year and to do God's will. 00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:25.159 God of peace, thank you. for all the blessings 00:01:25.159 --> 00:01:27.620 of life, love, and peace that you give us. Be 00:01:27.620 --> 00:01:31.409 with us now as we reflect together. on your call 00:01:31.409 --> 00:01:34.650 to follow the nonviolent Jesus as we look at 00:01:34.650 --> 00:01:37.030 the lives of the saints and to do our part to 00:01:37.030 --> 00:01:39.769 work for a more nonviolent, more just world. 00:01:39.930 --> 00:01:44.790 Bless us, inspire us, disarm us, heal us, strengthen 00:01:44.790 --> 00:01:48.329 us, and send us out to do your will and to do 00:01:48.329 --> 00:01:51.890 our part to help end poverty and greed and war, 00:01:52.150 --> 00:01:55.549 racism and justice and nuclear weapons, environmental 00:01:55.549 --> 00:01:58.930 destruction and fascism, that we might be your 00:01:58.930 --> 00:02:03.629 holy... beatitude people, peacemakers, who welcome 00:02:03.629 --> 00:02:06.890 your reign of universal love, nonviolence, and 00:02:06.890 --> 00:02:09.189 peace on earth. In the name of the nonviolent 00:02:09.189 --> 00:02:13.030 Jesus, amen. So to all the listeners, it's a 00:02:13.030 --> 00:02:15.770 great blessing to introduce you to my friend 00:02:15.770 --> 00:02:18.889 and to welcome here today Robert Ellsberg, one 00:02:18.889 --> 00:02:21.030 of our best spiritual writers in the country, 00:02:21.169 --> 00:02:24.289 the publisher and editor of Orbis Books, a legendary 00:02:24.289 --> 00:02:26.610 champion of Dorothy Day and many other saints. 00:02:27.280 --> 00:02:29.699 to speak about his latest book, this massive 00:02:29.699 --> 00:02:33.159 volume two of Blessed Among Us, a collection 00:02:33.159 --> 00:02:36.419 of writings for each day of the year about a 00:02:36.419 --> 00:02:38.879 few legendary saints, which was recently published 00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:42.300 by Liturgical Press. So Robert Ellsberg is the 00:02:42.300 --> 00:02:45.340 publisher and editor, as I said, of Orbis Books, 00:02:45.560 --> 00:02:48.120 and the author himself of many award -winning 00:02:48.120 --> 00:02:52.340 books, including All Saints. a massive collection 00:02:52.340 --> 00:02:55.479 of reflections on saints, prophets, and witnesses 00:02:55.479 --> 00:02:58.919 for our time. Blessed among all women. The Saint's 00:02:58.919 --> 00:03:01.840 Guide to Happiness, and A Living Gospel, Reading 00:03:01.840 --> 00:03:06.280 God's Story in Holy Lives. From 1975 to 1980, 00:03:06.500 --> 00:03:07.939 he was part of the Catholic Worker community 00:03:07.939 --> 00:03:10.960 in New York City, where he served as managing 00:03:10.960 --> 00:03:13.719 editor of the Catholic Worker and worked closely 00:03:13.719 --> 00:03:16.719 and became friends with Dorothy Day. He's since 00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:19.319 edited six volumes of her writings, including 00:03:19.319 --> 00:03:22.379 Dorothy Day's Selected Writings, The Duty of 00:03:22.379 --> 00:03:25.199 Delight, The Diaries of Dorothy Day. All the 00:03:25.199 --> 00:03:27.400 Way to Heaven, The Selected Letters of Dorothy 00:03:27.400 --> 00:03:30.479 Day, and Dorothy Day's Spiritual Writings. If 00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:32.580 you don't have them, get all of them and read 00:03:32.580 --> 00:03:35.719 all of them. He has written and edited many other 00:03:35.719 --> 00:03:38.719 beautiful volumes, including with the great Sister 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:41.960 Wendy Beckett, Dearest Sister Wendy, A Surprising 00:03:41.960 --> 00:03:45.159 Story of Faith and Friendship. His latest book 00:03:45.159 --> 00:03:49.270 here is a companion volume to Volume 1. Blessed 00:03:49.270 --> 00:03:52.229 Among Us, which offers an amazing, inspiring 00:03:52.229 --> 00:03:54.710 collection of the cloud of witnesses that surround 00:03:54.710 --> 00:03:58.370 us. This big book is full of marvelous, wonderful 00:03:58.370 --> 00:04:02.310 stories, just as Volume 1 was, and just as his 00:04:02.310 --> 00:04:05.169 best -selling historic book, All Saints, was. 00:04:05.430 --> 00:04:08.009 As you probably know, Robert is the son of the 00:04:08.009 --> 00:04:10.710 legendary Daniel Ellsberg, who released the Pentagon 00:04:10.710 --> 00:04:13.530 Papers and became one of the leading voices against 00:04:13.530 --> 00:04:16.949 war and nuclear weapons. Robert is also part 00:04:16.949 --> 00:04:19.259 of bringing out a beautiful new collection in 00:04:19.259 --> 00:04:23.779 this new year about his father's writings. At 00:04:23.779 --> 00:04:27.740 Orbist, he published, well, he changed the church, 00:04:27.839 --> 00:04:30.300 in my opinion. He published Gustavo Gutierrez, 00:04:30.519 --> 00:04:34.040 Romero, Dorothy Day, Merton, Daniel Berrigan, 00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:38.839 Henry Nowen, Joan Chidester, Joyce Rupp, James 00:04:38.839 --> 00:04:41.360 Caan, and even many of my books, including my 00:04:41.360 --> 00:04:45.550 recent commentary, The Gospel of Peace. Robert 00:04:45.550 --> 00:04:48.209 is one of my best friends. We traveled memorably 00:04:48.209 --> 00:04:50.550 together to El Salvador for Romero's beatification. 00:04:51.009 --> 00:04:53.730 So, Robert Ellsberg, welcome to the Nonviolent 00:04:53.730 --> 00:04:57.470 Jesus podcast. Thank you so much, Sean. I'm really 00:04:57.470 --> 00:05:01.310 honored to be here in the company of so many 00:05:01.310 --> 00:05:02.769 of the people you've interviewed in this podcast. 00:05:03.850 --> 00:05:07.209 Robert, I have no idea where to begin to ask, 00:05:07.310 --> 00:05:10.149 because as you look at this massive new book 00:05:10.149 --> 00:05:13.300 that you've just written, It's overwhelming. 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:15.600 And this isn't even your first one. You know, 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:18.560 if you start with All Saints, it's overwhelming. 00:05:18.779 --> 00:05:21.699 But let's start there, which a book which was 00:05:21.699 --> 00:05:26.180 a huge bestseller. And now this is my impression, 00:05:26.220 --> 00:05:28.920 but many thousands agree. It seems that overnight, 00:05:29.139 --> 00:05:32.680 that historic book, I think in the late 1990s, 00:05:32.680 --> 00:05:36.540 became a bestseller. And after hundreds of years, 00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:40.680 really and truly, put Saints back on the map. 00:05:41.310 --> 00:05:43.850 back in the center of the culture in the church. 00:05:44.449 --> 00:05:47.189 Then you started writing daily profiles of saints 00:05:47.189 --> 00:05:49.769 for the little monthly pamphlet, Give Us This 00:05:49.769 --> 00:05:53.470 Day, which were first collected into Blessed 00:05:53.470 --> 00:05:56.509 Among Us Volume 1. And now you've published a 00:05:56.509 --> 00:05:59.829 second mass of Volume 2, Blessed Among Us, with 00:05:59.829 --> 00:06:04.110 all the latest little segments about the saints. 00:06:04.540 --> 00:06:07.759 that are in Give Us This Day. But my take has 00:06:07.759 --> 00:06:10.360 always been, and I've said this many times, you 00:06:10.360 --> 00:06:13.060 have gone farther than the famous butler himself 00:06:13.060 --> 00:06:15.500 who did the four -volume Lives of the Saints. 00:06:16.339 --> 00:06:18.579 Anybody in a religious order, you know, when 00:06:18.579 --> 00:06:21.019 I entered the Jesuits 400 years ago, they were 00:06:21.019 --> 00:06:23.860 there on the shelves collecting dust for like 00:06:23.860 --> 00:06:27.410 300 years. But now you've gone way beyond them. 00:06:27.490 --> 00:06:29.449 So tell me, how did you get interested in the 00:06:29.449 --> 00:06:32.569 saints and writing a massive volume, All Saints, 00:06:32.689 --> 00:06:36.170 and now two more volumes? Well, since you talk 00:06:36.170 --> 00:06:38.990 about the influence and impact of All Saints, 00:06:39.110 --> 00:06:40.709 maybe I'll begin there a little bit. Because 00:06:40.709 --> 00:06:45.149 when I wrote that book, it really came out of 00:06:45.149 --> 00:06:47.910 my own heart and my life and my kind of experience. 00:06:48.829 --> 00:06:52.250 But I really had no idea whether anyone else 00:06:52.250 --> 00:06:54.910 would be interested in it at all. And so I really 00:06:54.910 --> 00:06:59.509 was. almost surprised by the response, which 00:06:59.509 --> 00:07:01.209 was very, very strong, very positive, whether 00:07:01.209 --> 00:07:06.110 it brought in a whole new era and appreciation 00:07:06.110 --> 00:07:08.110 for the saints, I don't know. But I think it 00:07:08.110 --> 00:07:10.930 is true that a lot of people raised on the kind 00:07:10.930 --> 00:07:14.629 of traditional stories of the saints. Even if 00:07:14.629 --> 00:07:18.410 you read in Butler's Lives, they're mostly from 00:07:18.410 --> 00:07:21.949 hundreds of years ago, or if not longer, and 00:07:21.949 --> 00:07:24.689 they tend to be, even though they're very well 00:07:24.689 --> 00:07:28.569 written, kind of stereotypical. And they kind 00:07:28.569 --> 00:07:30.730 of present this person as, okay, this is what 00:07:30.730 --> 00:07:34.310 a saint is. And you don't necessarily know how 00:07:34.310 --> 00:07:37.329 that relates to you because you're not like the 00:07:37.329 --> 00:07:39.629 founder of a religious order or a martyr or a 00:07:39.629 --> 00:07:42.790 bishop or something like that. And so a couple 00:07:42.790 --> 00:07:45.029 of things were different about mine. One, first 00:07:45.029 --> 00:07:48.370 of all, my selection was kind of guided not by 00:07:48.370 --> 00:07:50.370 starting kind of deductively with here's the 00:07:50.370 --> 00:07:52.329 saints and here's why you should be interested 00:07:52.329 --> 00:07:55.110 in them. but more kind of raising questions about 00:07:55.110 --> 00:07:59.649 what is the kind of spiritual need of our time, 00:07:59.829 --> 00:08:02.310 which might be different from, you know, 500 00:08:02.310 --> 00:08:05.209 years ago. And who are the kinds of people who 00:08:05.209 --> 00:08:08.470 relate to that or respond to that? Some of them 00:08:08.470 --> 00:08:11.550 might be, many of them, official canonized saints, 00:08:11.589 --> 00:08:13.769 even doctors of the church and going all the 00:08:13.769 --> 00:08:16.610 way back to the first centuries. But I thought 00:08:16.610 --> 00:08:19.009 there were many people of our own time. So on 00:08:19.009 --> 00:08:21.750 the one hand, I wanted to... kind of bring a 00:08:21.750 --> 00:08:25.129 different way of looking at the saints to show 00:08:25.129 --> 00:08:28.069 them as human beings who responded in their own 00:08:28.069 --> 00:08:30.310 time to the kind of questions and challenges 00:08:30.310 --> 00:08:34.370 that they encountered. Many of them had to kind 00:08:34.370 --> 00:08:38.250 of invent a new vocation or a new way of following 00:08:38.250 --> 00:08:41.070 Christ because the available options of their 00:08:41.070 --> 00:08:44.110 times didn't really satisfy them. That's especially 00:08:44.110 --> 00:08:47.169 the case for women who were always kind of transcending. 00:08:47.600 --> 00:08:50.480 the given boundaries and kind of being trailblazers. 00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:53.379 But the other thing I wanted to do was to expand 00:08:53.379 --> 00:08:56.580 people's kind of conception of holiness itself, 00:08:56.700 --> 00:09:01.639 because to not just identify saints with those 00:09:01.639 --> 00:09:05.120 who've been canonized, which after all are just 00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:08.059 the kind of tip of the iceberg. The Feast of 00:09:08.059 --> 00:09:11.879 All Saints on November 1st remembers all of the 00:09:11.879 --> 00:09:15.259 holy people whose holiness may be known only 00:09:15.259 --> 00:09:17.639 to God alone or to their... to their family or 00:09:17.639 --> 00:09:19.879 their neighbors. And certainly they don't have 00:09:19.879 --> 00:09:23.840 a religious order who has the resources to press 00:09:23.840 --> 00:09:26.080 for their canonization. So the canonized saints 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:29.740 are not the total of the saints. Those are just 00:09:29.740 --> 00:09:33.059 very specific, exceptional people that the church 00:09:33.059 --> 00:09:36.220 has, through a very complicated process, selected 00:09:36.220 --> 00:09:39.919 and held up as reliable kind of models of Christian 00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:42.820 discipleship. But I wanted to raise the question, 00:09:43.039 --> 00:09:47.309 aren't there all kinds of other ways? that people 00:09:47.309 --> 00:09:50.350 who are not candidates for canonization have 00:09:50.350 --> 00:09:53.690 in their own way lived lives of the Beatitudes, 00:09:53.950 --> 00:09:58.110 whether they're poverty of spirit or those who 00:09:58.110 --> 00:10:00.750 are merciful, those who mourn, peacemakers, etc. 00:10:01.470 --> 00:10:05.230 But that includes also kind of visionaries of 00:10:05.230 --> 00:10:08.950 different kinds, mystics, artists, writers, poets. 00:10:10.370 --> 00:10:12.610 Now, where did that come from for me? Well, I 00:10:12.610 --> 00:10:14.289 was not raised in the Catholic Church. I was 00:10:14.289 --> 00:10:16.299 raised in the Episcopal Church. I didn't really 00:10:16.299 --> 00:10:18.759 know very much about saints. But I was always 00:10:18.759 --> 00:10:23.440 fascinated by heroic moral witnesses. And I think 00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:26.220 the first saint that I really knew about was 00:10:26.220 --> 00:10:28.899 St. Francis. And I came across the little flowers 00:10:28.899 --> 00:10:31.559 of St. Francis. And it was the first time I had 00:10:31.559 --> 00:10:35.240 this idea that, oh, wow, being a saint is like 00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:37.860 somebody who reminds you of Jesus or somebody 00:10:37.860 --> 00:10:40.279 who really tries to follow the path of Jesus. 00:10:41.059 --> 00:10:44.139 And even at that time during the Vietnam War, 00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:48.639 I saw that. And many people all around me, I 00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:51.240 was inspired by Gandhi and his followers. I was 00:10:51.240 --> 00:10:54.220 inspired by Martin Luther King and people in 00:10:54.220 --> 00:10:55.940 the civil rights movement. I was inspired by 00:10:55.940 --> 00:10:59.500 young men who were going to prison for refusing 00:10:59.500 --> 00:11:01.480 to cooperate with the draft during the Vietnam 00:11:01.480 --> 00:11:05.460 War. That actually led me to leave college and 00:11:05.460 --> 00:11:07.399 go to the Catholic Worker. We'll talk about that 00:11:07.399 --> 00:11:09.580 maybe, where I worked with Dorothy Day for the 00:11:09.580 --> 00:11:12.399 last years of her life. I wasn't drawn by her 00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:14.120 Catholicism, which I didn't really know that 00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:16.519 much about. But more because she seemed to me 00:11:16.519 --> 00:11:20.299 like a modern follower of Gandhi. Eventually, 00:11:20.360 --> 00:11:22.720 I did become a Catholic. And one of the things 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:25.399 that really influenced me was learning about 00:11:25.399 --> 00:11:29.600 saints. And Dorothy Day had tremendous commitment 00:11:29.600 --> 00:11:32.039 and devotion to saints. But not just as people 00:11:32.039 --> 00:11:34.919 on a pedestal and not just sort of heavenly patrons, 00:11:35.019 --> 00:11:38.899 but people who were models of inspiration. And 00:11:38.899 --> 00:11:40.700 then she didn't just stop with them because she 00:11:40.700 --> 00:11:43.500 had her own cloud of witnesses that did include. 00:11:44.009 --> 00:11:47.309 uh, civil rights and labor, uh, you know, leaders 00:11:47.309 --> 00:11:51.350 and martyrs, uh, writers, philosophers, uh, and, 00:11:51.409 --> 00:11:53.990 uh, and, and, and more obscure, humble people 00:11:53.990 --> 00:11:56.649 that people might not even know about. And so 00:11:56.649 --> 00:11:58.950 that was really kind of what inspired this idea 00:11:58.950 --> 00:12:02.450 that I had of doing a book that would, it was 00:12:02.450 --> 00:12:05.669 sort of be like Dorothy day's conception of, 00:12:05.769 --> 00:12:08.330 of, of a book of saints, you know, and not pretending 00:12:08.330 --> 00:12:10.590 that they're all canonized or could be canonized. 00:12:10.750 --> 00:12:13.210 A lot of them have been, even since I did that 00:12:13.210 --> 00:12:16.820 book. but they included people I knew and people 00:12:16.820 --> 00:12:20.299 who had really inspired me. And so it was easy 00:12:20.299 --> 00:12:22.980 for me to write about those stories because they 00:12:22.980 --> 00:12:25.320 were people in my own life who had a tremendous 00:12:25.320 --> 00:12:28.720 influence on me. So it was then years later, 00:12:28.779 --> 00:12:31.419 I thought maybe I was done with it then, until 00:12:31.419 --> 00:12:34.019 liturgical press approached me and asked me if 00:12:34.019 --> 00:12:36.559 I would contribute something in that same spirit 00:12:36.559 --> 00:12:40.559 to their new journal, Give Us the Stay, which 00:12:40.559 --> 00:12:43.490 comes out every month. And so I had a two -year 00:12:43.490 --> 00:12:46.049 contract to do that, just writing one of these 00:12:46.049 --> 00:12:47.769 entries, Blessed Among Us, for every day of the 00:12:47.769 --> 00:12:50.809 year. And now it's 14 years later, I'm still 00:12:50.809 --> 00:12:53.330 doing it, and I've written about 1 ,400 of them. 00:12:53.610 --> 00:12:56.450 And those are the stories that make up these 00:12:56.450 --> 00:12:59.769 two volumes, Blessed Among Us and the new volume 00:12:59.769 --> 00:13:01.570 two that's just come out. Thank you, Robert. 00:13:01.769 --> 00:13:05.330 So, you know, it was so shocking when All Saints 00:13:05.330 --> 00:13:08.769 First came out in the late 90s, because almost 00:13:08.769 --> 00:13:13.340 overnight, You're saying all these beautiful, 00:13:13.419 --> 00:13:17.299 great people of all different races and varieties, 00:13:17.700 --> 00:13:21.000 they're all clearly saints. So in your book, 00:13:21.019 --> 00:13:24.799 you might have St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, 00:13:25.159 --> 00:13:28.779 St. Benedict, and then there's Rosa Parks. And 00:13:28.779 --> 00:13:34.240 you go, of course, of course. Or, you know, Steve 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:37.820 Biko and Archbishop Tutu and John Lewis, along 00:13:37.820 --> 00:13:42.600 with Merton and Dorothy. Romero and Dr. King. 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:45.899 I wondered, before we get into your new book, 00:13:46.019 --> 00:13:48.759 if you could say a word about holiness, because 00:13:48.759 --> 00:13:51.419 it's so interesting that you're talking about 00:13:51.419 --> 00:13:55.580 that. I know it's almost a silly question to 00:13:55.580 --> 00:13:58.779 say, but what are the qualifications of a saint 00:13:58.779 --> 00:14:02.139 or holiness? And, you know, you put it so simply, 00:14:02.159 --> 00:14:04.720 like, oh, someone who looks like Jesus or follows 00:14:04.720 --> 00:14:07.139 Jesus. No, that's really helpful, really, in 00:14:07.139 --> 00:14:09.360 the end. It's not a self -righteous thing, that's 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:13.379 for sure. And also, Robert, I wonder if you could 00:14:13.379 --> 00:14:16.820 say something. Just forgive me, but here I invoke 00:14:16.820 --> 00:14:21.460 your beloved father, Daniel Ellsberg. In an age 00:14:21.460 --> 00:14:23.220 where we're on the brink of nuclear destruction, 00:14:23.539 --> 00:14:26.879 catastrophic climate change, global poverty, 00:14:27.019 --> 00:14:31.580 and permanent warfare, I think holiness is dangerous. 00:14:31.779 --> 00:14:34.220 It's a threat to the culture of violence and 00:14:34.220 --> 00:14:38.750 war. Jesus was killed by the empire. And, you 00:14:38.750 --> 00:14:42.230 know, so I see Dorothy Day and the Berrigans, 00:14:42.230 --> 00:14:45.370 our friends, as a threat to the culture of war. 00:14:45.649 --> 00:14:47.769 I wonder if you might reflect a little bit about 00:14:47.769 --> 00:14:51.129 that too. Well, you know, I think there's something 00:14:51.129 --> 00:14:55.110 to that. There are obviously saints and there's 00:14:55.110 --> 00:14:59.710 models of holiness that don't necessarily challenge 00:14:59.710 --> 00:15:03.730 the system. But I think then there are also kind 00:15:03.730 --> 00:15:06.220 of, you know, the mystics and there are... you 00:15:06.220 --> 00:15:08.059 know, let's say like the women, the beguines 00:15:08.059 --> 00:15:13.139 of the Middle Ages who kind of charted this independent 00:15:13.139 --> 00:15:15.980 model of religious life, not in an enclosure, 00:15:16.179 --> 00:15:18.419 not really under the supervision of a bishop 00:15:18.419 --> 00:15:21.000 or that sort of thing. And they were very threatening 00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:24.460 to the church of their time and were really mercilessly 00:15:24.460 --> 00:15:27.379 persecuted. So there are those kind of examples 00:15:27.379 --> 00:15:30.580 of people who are not necessarily social or political 00:15:30.580 --> 00:15:35.879 radicals, but just by... are kind of trying to 00:15:35.879 --> 00:15:40.019 live in simplicity, live in a spirit of peace 00:15:40.019 --> 00:15:42.779 and nonviolence, live in a spirit of recognizing 00:15:42.779 --> 00:15:46.379 Christ and their neighbors, that that does, you 00:15:46.379 --> 00:15:49.820 know, deeply challenge, you know, the values 00:15:49.820 --> 00:15:54.000 of a, you know, mercantile or capitalist kind 00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:57.600 of system or the power of the state or the claims 00:15:57.600 --> 00:16:01.480 of an idolatrous totalitarian state because it's 00:16:01.480 --> 00:16:05.639 people who are standing up or affirming some 00:16:05.639 --> 00:16:11.460 idea of truth that is beyond the power of those 00:16:11.460 --> 00:16:13.940 in charge. And that goes all the way back to 00:16:13.940 --> 00:16:18.679 Herod and the Gospels and Caesar. So, yeah, I 00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:21.799 think there's something to that. On the other 00:16:21.799 --> 00:16:25.860 hand, I don't want to say that they're all just 00:16:25.860 --> 00:16:28.299 sort of troublemakers. A lot of the people that 00:16:28.299 --> 00:16:32.639 I include are people who... give us access to 00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:38.659 some kind of sense of beauty or truth or goodness 00:16:38.659 --> 00:16:43.539 that doesn't just challenge the system, but inspires 00:16:43.539 --> 00:16:48.379 us to want to be more like that. And I think 00:16:48.379 --> 00:16:52.100 that that is one of the characteristics or qualities 00:16:52.100 --> 00:16:55.679 that I'm trying to communicate. I think that 00:16:55.679 --> 00:17:00.139 we are shaped very much by what attracts us. 00:17:00.519 --> 00:17:03.740 what we love, what we pay attention to. And so 00:17:03.740 --> 00:17:06.099 it makes a great deal of difference what we pay 00:17:06.099 --> 00:17:10.299 attention to. And most of the kind of examples 00:17:10.299 --> 00:17:12.640 or the people who are in the news all the time 00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:17.160 are not really very attractive or admirable people. 00:17:17.259 --> 00:17:19.440 In fact, sometimes they're people who represent 00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:22.740 the worst human qualities. And so to call attention 00:17:22.740 --> 00:17:26.140 to these kind of people who walk among us, you 00:17:26.140 --> 00:17:28.259 know, and show us a different kind of way and 00:17:28.259 --> 00:17:31.480 call us to a better path. Not all of them Catholic, 00:17:31.640 --> 00:17:34.160 not all of them Christian. That's also one of 00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:36.839 the kind of subversive things maybe that I did 00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:39.599 in the book. But by not calling it just saints, 00:17:39.700 --> 00:17:42.000 you know, by saying saints, prophets, and witnesses 00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:45.839 for our time, I think that I, you know, point 00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:51.380 to this idea that we can be inspired on our path 00:17:51.380 --> 00:17:56.140 by people who don't necessarily share the same 00:17:56.140 --> 00:17:58.710 doctrines that we do. but also this idea that 00:17:58.710 --> 00:18:01.769 all who kind of pursue truth, all these different 00:18:01.769 --> 00:18:05.410 ways converge, the kind of separations, boundaries 00:18:05.410 --> 00:18:09.589 that we draw in this life, this world, don't 00:18:09.589 --> 00:18:13.730 exist in heaven. Oh, thank you. Well, I'm speaking 00:18:13.730 --> 00:18:16.329 with Robert Ellsberg about his big new book, 00:18:16.490 --> 00:18:19.890 Blessed Among Us, Volume 2, Day by Day with Saintly 00:18:19.890 --> 00:18:22.869 Witnesses. If you haven't got it, I highly recommend 00:18:22.869 --> 00:18:26.269 it. Get the first big book called All Saints. 00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:29.380 Then the first volume, Blessed Among Us, Volume 00:18:29.380 --> 00:18:32.220 1, this new one, beautiful cover with icons. 00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:36.039 It's almost 800 pages. It's also a great book, 00:18:36.140 --> 00:18:38.799 all three of them, really, to give out as gifts. 00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:41.799 Robert, there are way too many historic saints 00:18:41.799 --> 00:18:45.710 and figures in this book. To talk about. The 00:18:45.710 --> 00:18:49.750 thing that struck me first when I got my copy 00:18:49.750 --> 00:18:53.890 was such an antidote to the bad news that we 00:18:53.890 --> 00:18:58.109 read about every day or the people who are hurting 00:18:58.109 --> 00:19:01.509 people that we read about. And I could read through 00:19:01.509 --> 00:19:03.769 the list of table of contents and it would be 00:19:03.769 --> 00:19:07.089 so astonishing. But I sort of think, you know, 00:19:07.150 --> 00:19:11.349 this is to make you laugh, but I dare not say 00:19:11.349 --> 00:19:14.170 it, but it's too late. It's sort of like the 00:19:14.170 --> 00:19:16.509 opposite of People Magazine, you know, which 00:19:16.509 --> 00:19:19.190 is the culture. Here, look at all these people. 00:19:19.269 --> 00:19:23.109 They made it in the world. This is the people 00:19:23.109 --> 00:19:25.470 who made it in heaven. And these are ones we 00:19:25.470 --> 00:19:29.549 aspire to. And these are books to have by your 00:19:29.549 --> 00:19:31.269 bed for the rest of your life because you just 00:19:31.269 --> 00:19:33.230 feel better reading about them. Wow, that guy 00:19:33.230 --> 00:19:36.049 did that. She did that. I can do what I'm doing. 00:19:36.329 --> 00:19:39.210 Now, here are the ones as I kind of glimpse through 00:19:39.210 --> 00:19:42.000 it. that I just thought to mention to give folks 00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:44.920 a flavor. And I'm going to ask you to tell me 00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:47.440 about which the ones that inspire you. But here 00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:49.960 are some names, just random names I picked to 00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:53.880 show people. Albert Camus, Rachel Carson, Ben 00:19:53.880 --> 00:19:57.940 Salmon, who's the historic figure against World 00:19:57.940 --> 00:20:00.759 War I on the grounds of the nonviolence of Jesus. 00:20:01.349 --> 00:20:04.930 Diana Ortiz, our great friend, Jane Adams, Richard 00:20:04.930 --> 00:20:08.369 McSorley, my friend, Leo Tolstoy, Eddie Hillison, 00:20:08.630 --> 00:20:11.750 Gene Donovan, your beloved friend, Wendy Beckett, 00:20:11.809 --> 00:20:14.849 Danilo Dolci, who's my great friend, the kind 00:20:14.849 --> 00:20:19.390 of Gandhi of Italy. I knew, I think, 25 of them, 00:20:19.410 --> 00:20:22.710 and I know you did too. So tell me about a few 00:20:22.710 --> 00:20:25.109 of the saints in this new collection who inspire 00:20:25.109 --> 00:20:29.009 you personally, especially in this terrible time. 00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:33.880 that we're all going through. One of the things 00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:36.000 about the second volume, and probably why you 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:40.599 know a lot of these people, is because in the 00:20:40.599 --> 00:20:42.619 second volume, these are a lot of people I've 00:20:42.619 --> 00:20:44.400 written about just in the last, you know, whatever 00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:47.259 it is, seven or eight years or something. So 00:20:47.259 --> 00:20:50.220 a lot of people who died in that period. So that 00:20:50.220 --> 00:20:52.819 includes a lot of people that we know, including 00:20:52.819 --> 00:20:58.160 some of my authors. And, you know, not just the... 00:20:58.619 --> 00:21:00.319 founders of religious orders and that sort of 00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:03.839 thing. So there's quite a lot. A lot of them 00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:05.460 I know were people that you were very close to, 00:21:05.579 --> 00:21:10.440 Tutu and Desmond Tutu, excuse me, James Lawson 00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:15.339 and John Lewis and people like that, that I admired 00:21:15.339 --> 00:21:19.140 from afar but never had a chance to meet. And 00:21:19.140 --> 00:21:21.640 then there are people who, you know, did intersect 00:21:21.640 --> 00:21:24.880 with my life in years too, like Thich Nhat Hanh 00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:29.900 or my very good friend Jim Forrest. a great peacemaker, 00:21:30.099 --> 00:21:34.700 Catholic worker, one of my authors of many books 00:21:34.700 --> 00:21:37.579 on peace and nonviolence. I know you were very 00:21:37.579 --> 00:21:40.059 close to Paul Farmer, and I published him and 00:21:40.059 --> 00:21:45.400 got to know him. Just one of the remarkable people 00:21:45.400 --> 00:21:50.420 we've ever met, probably. Total genius, who had 00:21:50.420 --> 00:21:56.660 this fantastic education, but which he used entirely. 00:21:57.400 --> 00:22:01.940 to bring healing and health to the poor, the 00:22:01.940 --> 00:22:04.460 poorest to the poor, and to say, you know, to 00:22:04.460 --> 00:22:06.720 step out and talk about a kind of a challenge. 00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:08.960 This idea that we have, there's so much debate 00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:11.380 about health care and insurance now, but this 00:22:11.380 --> 00:22:15.640 idea that we have here that health care is a 00:22:15.640 --> 00:22:19.480 business, you know, and that there's money involved 00:22:19.480 --> 00:22:21.819 and whether you can afford it and all that kind 00:22:21.819 --> 00:22:25.200 of stuff. This idea that health care should be... 00:22:25.630 --> 00:22:28.190 a human right, you know? And the way that he 00:22:28.190 --> 00:22:30.450 poured himself out like that is just remarkable. 00:22:31.029 --> 00:22:35.710 Or Mr. Rogers, you know, Fred Rogers. Now, there's 00:22:35.710 --> 00:22:37.690 somebody, again, you look at somebody who is 00:22:37.690 --> 00:22:41.109 a subversive figure, you could say, in the sense 00:22:41.109 --> 00:22:45.789 that he just embodied this gentleness and said 00:22:45.789 --> 00:22:48.390 that instead of cartoons with, you know, characters 00:22:48.390 --> 00:22:49.930 hitting each other over the head with frying 00:22:49.930 --> 00:22:54.369 pans and stuff, what if you... expose children 00:22:54.369 --> 00:22:57.930 to kindness and gentleness and help them deal 00:22:57.930 --> 00:23:01.289 with their feelings and to be friends with people 00:23:01.289 --> 00:23:03.089 who are different from them and all that kind 00:23:03.089 --> 00:23:06.569 of thing. And that was for him consciously a 00:23:06.569 --> 00:23:10.650 ministry because he had gone to seminary and 00:23:10.650 --> 00:23:15.410 studied ministry and discovered in children's 00:23:15.410 --> 00:23:19.630 television that that would be his ministry. I 00:23:19.630 --> 00:23:22.289 was able, some of these people just at the last 00:23:22.289 --> 00:23:24.789 minute, who died as we were finishing the book, 00:23:24.849 --> 00:23:28.630 and I dedicated the book to Pope Francis, he 00:23:28.630 --> 00:23:32.490 inspired me in just more ways than I can say. 00:23:33.750 --> 00:23:38.670 I think he was one of the, you know, it was A 00:23:38.670 --> 00:23:41.589 .P. Correa, the Jesuit martyr in El Salvador, 00:23:41.690 --> 00:23:45.450 said that in Romero, Christ passed through El 00:23:45.450 --> 00:23:50.529 Salvador. I really felt that was what we experienced 00:23:50.529 --> 00:23:54.980 with Pope Francis. That he brought the gospel 00:23:54.980 --> 00:24:00.380 to life in a new way through showing that a church 00:24:00.380 --> 00:24:02.619 leader is not just concerned with orthodoxy and 00:24:02.619 --> 00:24:08.059 doctrine, but with mercy and with concern for 00:24:08.059 --> 00:24:13.400 the poorest and for peace and for refugees and 00:24:13.400 --> 00:24:19.880 just his human qualities and his openness. I 00:24:19.880 --> 00:24:22.279 probably influenced me more than anybody in this 00:24:22.279 --> 00:24:25.980 whole list, and I dedicated a book to him. And 00:24:25.980 --> 00:24:28.160 another person I added just at the very end, 00:24:28.279 --> 00:24:33.160 and sometimes these people, if they're not really 00:24:33.160 --> 00:24:36.400 obvious, I have to get permission from liturgical, 00:24:36.559 --> 00:24:39.220 but I said, I'd really like to write about Alexei 00:24:39.220 --> 00:24:42.380 Navalny, who was the Russian dissident who died 00:24:42.380 --> 00:24:47.319 in Siberian prison camp. Now, here's a guy. And 00:24:47.319 --> 00:24:49.819 it was only when I read his journals that were 00:24:49.819 --> 00:24:52.039 published after his death and he wrote from prison 00:24:52.039 --> 00:24:55.559 that I realized that he was really a person of 00:24:55.559 --> 00:25:02.240 faith. And in fact, he said that it's very different 00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:05.119 to go through this kind of ordeal if you're a 00:25:05.119 --> 00:25:07.160 believer, if you believe that Christ is with 00:25:07.160 --> 00:25:12.920 you. But here's a guy who was a reformer, but 00:25:12.920 --> 00:25:17.109 he took on corruption in the state. And he posed 00:25:17.109 --> 00:25:21.670 a tremendous threat to the Putin regime, the 00:25:21.670 --> 00:25:24.410 oligarchy there. And they persecuted him all 00:25:24.410 --> 00:25:26.049 kinds of ways. And then they tried to kill him. 00:25:26.089 --> 00:25:28.509 They poisoned him. And he wasn't supposed to 00:25:28.509 --> 00:25:31.869 live, but he survived. And he was in exile and 00:25:31.869 --> 00:25:35.349 was treated in a hospital. And as soon as he 00:25:35.349 --> 00:25:38.869 was well enough, he went back to Russia, knowing 00:25:38.869 --> 00:25:43.160 that he said that he would be arrested. And when 00:25:43.160 --> 00:25:44.900 he was, as soon as he landed at the airport, 00:25:45.140 --> 00:25:48.400 he said, I know that this will be a life sentence, 00:25:48.660 --> 00:25:52.779 either my life or the lifespan of the regime. 00:25:53.799 --> 00:25:56.519 And he said in his journal, something I think 00:25:56.519 --> 00:26:00.140 is so relevant today, he said that there are 00:26:00.140 --> 00:26:05.700 lots of brave people, or lots of good people, 00:26:05.799 --> 00:26:09.519 but that doesn't threaten the system as much 00:26:09.519 --> 00:26:15.089 as people who... are afraid, but that they don't 00:26:15.089 --> 00:26:20.549 give up. And I think that was, just by offering 00:26:20.549 --> 00:26:25.430 his life in that way and dying, I think he was 00:26:25.430 --> 00:26:28.410 a real witness for murder. So that was added 00:26:28.410 --> 00:26:31.609 right at the end. I'm so glad you included him, 00:26:31.650 --> 00:26:35.029 and I'm so moved you bring up Paul Farmer and 00:26:35.029 --> 00:26:39.190 Fred Rogers, both my friends. Pope Francis, who 00:26:39.190 --> 00:26:41.750 I think is the greatest pope in history, the 00:26:41.750 --> 00:26:43.869 most prophetic one. I don't know if you know, 00:26:44.009 --> 00:26:50.210 but Alexei wrote from prison a private letter 00:26:50.210 --> 00:26:52.589 smuggled out to my friend Kerry Kennedy saying 00:26:52.589 --> 00:26:55.289 that. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. His whole life was because 00:26:55.289 --> 00:26:58.589 of Bobby Kennedy being killed. And he decided 00:26:58.589 --> 00:27:01.900 to, as a person of faith, to give his life. consciously 00:27:01.900 --> 00:27:03.940 like that. And then they wrote regularly until 00:27:03.940 --> 00:27:08.099 he was killed. And it's very moving. I've got 00:27:08.099 --> 00:27:12.519 you. Bobby Kennedy is also in my book. And you 00:27:12.519 --> 00:27:16.400 know our very good friend Jim Douglas has just 00:27:16.400 --> 00:27:19.000 published this book on the assassinations, the 00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:22.240 martyrdom of JFK, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, 00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:25.940 and Bobby Kennedy. Everybody's got to get that 00:27:25.940 --> 00:27:28.660 book. When I was interviewing him recently, I 00:27:28.660 --> 00:27:30.160 said, you know, one of the things that's so striking 00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:35.450 is that is that all of these people knew that 00:27:35.450 --> 00:27:37.109 they were on a path that was going to lead to 00:27:37.109 --> 00:27:39.890 death. And they didn't give up. They went ahead 00:27:39.890 --> 00:27:45.250 anyway. And so, you know, all remarkable stories. 00:27:46.349 --> 00:27:53.410 And that gets into, it's not just martyrs, it's 00:27:53.410 --> 00:27:56.519 witnessing. Gospel witnesses or visionaries. 00:27:56.660 --> 00:27:59.019 Well, I've got you here, so I want to ask you 00:27:59.019 --> 00:28:01.640 about Dorothy Day, your great mentor and friend 00:28:01.640 --> 00:28:04.880 and teacher whom you've been writing about and 00:28:04.880 --> 00:28:08.539 keeping alive for over 45 years. And I know it's 00:28:08.539 --> 00:28:10.539 a big question, but can you just share a few 00:28:10.539 --> 00:28:13.140 insights with us in the brief time we have, or 00:28:13.140 --> 00:28:16.200 a memory or two about Dorothy for me, and maybe 00:28:16.200 --> 00:28:19.619 share a word about... the ongoing process of 00:28:19.619 --> 00:28:22.920 her impending canonization. And my thought, by 00:28:22.920 --> 00:28:24.819 the way, Robert, I woke up last week, I don't 00:28:24.819 --> 00:28:29.559 think I told you, but was, she's got to become 00:28:29.559 --> 00:28:32.019 a doctor of the church. She's way beyond being 00:28:32.019 --> 00:28:35.759 a saint. It's true. She's Teresa of Avila and 00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:38.799 Catherine of Siena. She's St. Francis and Gandhi 00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:43.859 combined. One step at a time. Okay. I do think 00:28:43.859 --> 00:28:47.589 that, you know, Apart from the things that I 00:28:47.589 --> 00:28:49.490 kind of learned from Dorothy about the saints 00:28:49.490 --> 00:28:52.410 and that sort of thing. Yeah, I really, you know, 00:28:52.490 --> 00:28:55.490 I got to know her when I was very young. 50 years 00:28:55.490 --> 00:28:58.670 ago that I met her, actually, in 1975. Knowing 00:28:58.670 --> 00:29:01.650 how much that was going to determine the whole 00:29:01.650 --> 00:29:04.750 course of my life. I've edited six volumes of 00:29:04.750 --> 00:29:07.049 her writings now. And I have to say that with 00:29:07.049 --> 00:29:09.609 each of those books that I've edited, I've gotten 00:29:09.609 --> 00:29:15.299 to know her better. And I think a real... The 00:29:15.299 --> 00:29:18.279 important step along that way for me was the 00:29:18.279 --> 00:29:23.380 opportunity to edit her diaries. Because, you 00:29:23.380 --> 00:29:26.960 know, even in my case, one tends to think of 00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:29.720 Dorothy Day or other great saints in terms of 00:29:29.720 --> 00:29:33.000 these big public things that they did, whether 00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:35.599 starting a religious order, the Catholic worker 00:29:35.599 --> 00:29:39.380 in her case, or house of hospitality, or being 00:29:39.380 --> 00:29:42.079 arrested with the farm workers, or going to jail 00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:44.859 for, you know. protesting civil defense drills. 00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:48.119 And we sort of focus on those things as if that 00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:51.839 is what represents the kind of apex of their 00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:55.119 witness or their holiness. And when I read her 00:29:55.119 --> 00:29:58.839 diaries, I realized that all of that was rooted 00:29:58.839 --> 00:30:02.759 in the practice of her kind of very disciplined 00:30:02.759 --> 00:30:05.700 spiritual life. And by that, I don't mean just 00:30:05.700 --> 00:30:08.099 that she went to daily mass and read the Bible 00:30:08.099 --> 00:30:13.160 every day and said the rosary. recited the office. 00:30:13.279 --> 00:30:16.579 She was a Benedictine oblate, went on pilgrimages, 00:30:16.619 --> 00:30:19.339 and all those kinds of devotions. But I mean 00:30:19.339 --> 00:30:22.640 the effort to practice charity, forgiveness, 00:30:23.019 --> 00:30:27.680 patience in her everyday life. And we think, 00:30:27.720 --> 00:30:30.059 well, it came easy for her, just as people say, 00:30:30.140 --> 00:30:32.759 oh, Mother Teresa could do those things. I could 00:30:32.759 --> 00:30:35.359 never do this. She's a saint. And what you see 00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:38.579 in her diaries is how much that was contrary 00:30:38.579 --> 00:30:43.869 to her nature. She was very temperamental. She 00:30:43.869 --> 00:30:46.450 was very judgmental. She was kind of quick to 00:30:46.450 --> 00:30:50.609 anger. She could hold grudges, all those things. 00:30:50.769 --> 00:30:54.529 And you see that every day she's going through 00:30:54.529 --> 00:30:57.730 this examination of conscience and looking at 00:30:57.730 --> 00:30:59.589 the encounters that she had with people, just 00:30:59.589 --> 00:31:02.869 the very ordinary tasks of her life, and how 00:31:02.869 --> 00:31:05.789 she tried to practice the presence of God, and 00:31:05.789 --> 00:31:08.529 how she tried to practice what she learned from 00:31:08.529 --> 00:31:10.980 Therese of Lisieux, doctor of the church. the 00:31:10.980 --> 00:31:15.000 little way, a kind of path to holiness that lies 00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:19.299 in kind of performing all our everyday actions 00:31:19.299 --> 00:31:22.640 with an awareness and love of God. Now, what 00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:24.660 Dorothy did, though, was she took that also into 00:31:24.660 --> 00:31:28.319 a social dimension because it also led her to 00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:33.440 believe in the power of small gestures, small 00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:36.660 protests, the words that we say, the words that 00:31:36.660 --> 00:31:39.160 we don't say, all of them for positive or good. 00:31:39.630 --> 00:31:43.630 or negative that can affect the world around 00:31:43.630 --> 00:31:47.009 us in ways that we have no way of seeing. And 00:31:47.009 --> 00:31:49.470 I really did see how her practice of these things 00:31:49.470 --> 00:31:53.309 in just small everyday ways kind of prepared 00:31:53.309 --> 00:31:56.589 her for the heroic things she did on the more 00:31:56.589 --> 00:32:01.150 public stage. So that is one of the things that 00:32:01.150 --> 00:32:05.710 I've most come to appreciate. As for the question 00:32:05.710 --> 00:32:09.539 of holiness, I also see that Even as a young 00:32:09.539 --> 00:32:12.359 person, when Dorothy first learned about saints, 00:32:12.740 --> 00:32:16.220 she said that she admired the way that they served 00:32:16.220 --> 00:32:19.940 the poor and the sick. But she said, where were 00:32:19.940 --> 00:32:22.940 the saints to change the social order? Not just 00:32:22.940 --> 00:32:25.880 to minister to the slaves, but to do away with 00:32:25.880 --> 00:32:28.460 slavery. And that's where she takes this great 00:32:28.460 --> 00:32:33.460 big leap. What other saint ever said that? And 00:32:33.460 --> 00:32:36.259 who tried to live there, you know? And yes, she 00:32:36.259 --> 00:32:38.160 performed the works of mercy and she lived in 00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:40.599 voluntary poverty with the poor, but she was 00:32:40.599 --> 00:32:43.420 also trying to change the social order. And not 00:32:43.420 --> 00:32:46.519 just through protesting, but also by offering 00:32:46.519 --> 00:32:50.200 a kind of critique and offering a model of an 00:32:50.200 --> 00:32:52.859 alternative way of being and alternative values 00:32:52.859 --> 00:32:56.440 for our society and trying to live them in the 00:32:56.440 --> 00:32:59.519 present. That's so beautiful. Thank you, Robert. 00:33:00.920 --> 00:33:05.839 Like your father, Daniel Ellsberg, you've followed 00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:09.619 close to daily events marking the collapse of 00:33:09.619 --> 00:33:14.099 our democracy and nation and world and spoken 00:33:14.099 --> 00:33:17.480 out vigorously for justice of the poor and been 00:33:17.480 --> 00:33:22.339 arrested for nuclear disarmament and doing this 00:33:22.339 --> 00:33:25.359 and writing books as well as editing and running 00:33:25.359 --> 00:33:27.740 Orbis books, publishing all these great things. 00:33:27.960 --> 00:33:32.200 So as you study... the lives of the saints and 00:33:32.200 --> 00:33:35.619 our great theologians and voices for justice 00:33:35.619 --> 00:33:39.759 and peace. In light of this growing fascism and 00:33:39.759 --> 00:33:42.680 authoritarianism and white supremacy and climate 00:33:42.680 --> 00:33:47.640 change, what reflections or suggestions do you 00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:50.579 have from us, from your perspective, as we go 00:33:50.579 --> 00:33:54.299 forward in this new year? I guess to become saints 00:33:54.299 --> 00:34:00.440 ourselves, to try to be people who... reflect 00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:05.039 the life of Jesus in this world? Well, I think 00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:10.599 I was very influenced by my father and his example. 00:34:10.599 --> 00:34:15.219 I think that he is one of the people who kind 00:34:15.219 --> 00:34:17.059 of pointed me in the direction of really being 00:34:17.059 --> 00:34:21.260 interested in people who provide a moral witness, 00:34:21.400 --> 00:34:24.360 my witnessing up close when I was growing up, 00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:27.460 you know, the story of the Pentagon Papers. willingness 00:34:27.460 --> 00:34:32.159 to go to prison for the cause of peace. And I've 00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:35.579 never been the activist that he was or the single 00:34:35.579 --> 00:34:38.079 -minded kind of focus on the perils of nuclear 00:34:38.079 --> 00:34:40.079 weapons and all that kind of thing that he devoted 00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:43.059 himself to. He did not call himself a person 00:34:43.059 --> 00:34:45.019 of faith, but he did call himself a person of 00:34:45.019 --> 00:34:49.139 hope. And he said, that's not just optimism that 00:34:49.139 --> 00:34:50.599 things are going to turn out all right. It's 00:34:50.599 --> 00:34:53.559 a commitment to live hopefully, that is to say, 00:34:53.619 --> 00:34:58.679 live in such a way. that there is a possibility 00:34:58.679 --> 00:35:04.059 of change in the world. No guarantees, no certainties. 00:35:04.639 --> 00:35:07.900 But he said the consequences, the risks are so 00:35:07.900 --> 00:35:12.239 great that it justifies whatever happens if we 00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:15.139 put into that. And he was very pessimistic, really, 00:35:15.219 --> 00:35:17.400 about the fate of the Earth, whether through 00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:20.940 nuclear war or climate change. The odds, he said, 00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:24.179 of our survival are very low. But he said that 00:35:24.179 --> 00:35:28.570 low odds... are not, no odds. And his own experience 00:35:28.570 --> 00:35:31.250 showed him that you can never really know what 00:35:31.250 --> 00:35:34.170 the effect or implications of your actions might 00:35:34.170 --> 00:35:38.349 be. For example, the big turning point in his 00:35:38.349 --> 00:35:41.929 life was hearing a young man give a speech where 00:35:41.929 --> 00:35:44.110 he said he was about to go to prison for resisting 00:35:44.110 --> 00:35:49.190 the draft. And that hit my father like a blow, 00:35:49.409 --> 00:35:52.539 and it made him think, what could I do? if I 00:35:52.539 --> 00:35:54.139 were willing to go to prison. That's what led 00:35:54.139 --> 00:35:57.679 him to release the Pentagon Papers, risk going 00:35:57.679 --> 00:36:00.159 to prison for the rest of his life. And his own 00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:03.579 actions in doing that had kind of unexpected, 00:36:03.880 --> 00:36:09.320 indirect kind of consequences that he could not 00:36:09.320 --> 00:36:13.460 possibly have foreseen because of Nixon commissioning 00:36:13.460 --> 00:36:15.760 the plumbers to go after him and try to destroy 00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:18.480 him. Howard Watergate, that actually ended up 00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:20.519 bringing Nixon down and it helped end the war. 00:36:21.019 --> 00:36:26.159 So you can see how these actions of one person 00:36:26.159 --> 00:36:28.320 might be as simple as standing on a street corner 00:36:28.320 --> 00:36:32.019 with a sign. All these things that make people 00:36:32.019 --> 00:36:35.980 stop and think, because the system, as you kind 00:36:35.980 --> 00:36:38.519 of referred to it, tries to make people think 00:36:38.519 --> 00:36:41.940 that there's nothing you can do about it. Nothing's 00:36:41.940 --> 00:36:44.739 going to change. You're powerless. And if it 00:36:44.739 --> 00:36:48.119 starts with just a few people showing that that's 00:36:48.119 --> 00:36:51.099 not true. It alerts people to the fact that there's 00:36:51.099 --> 00:36:53.280 another way of being. It is possible to do that. 00:36:53.360 --> 00:36:56.619 And more people perhaps join in. And it kind 00:36:56.619 --> 00:37:00.579 of shatters this illusion of unanimity or inevitability 00:37:00.579 --> 00:37:05.159 or immutability in the systems of the world. 00:37:06.420 --> 00:37:08.880 So, you know, my dad said it would take a miracle 00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:11.639 for us to survive. But he said that we've witnessed 00:37:11.639 --> 00:37:14.360 miracles. We don't call them that. But what do 00:37:14.360 --> 00:37:16.760 you call the peaceful collapse of the Berlin 00:37:16.760 --> 00:37:20.500 Wall? the fall of apartheid, all these kinds 00:37:20.500 --> 00:37:22.599 of things that seemed impossible until they happened. 00:37:23.820 --> 00:37:27.380 So he liked to say that courage is contagious, 00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:35.539 that one light can light another. And that makes 00:37:35.539 --> 00:37:39.900 it a good way to use your life, as all these 00:37:39.900 --> 00:37:43.420 saints did in one way or another, kind of showing 00:37:43.420 --> 00:37:46.849 through their own example. But there's another 00:37:46.849 --> 00:37:48.929 way of being. You look at the lives of the saints. 00:37:48.989 --> 00:37:51.929 You look at someone like St. Francis, who had 00:37:51.929 --> 00:37:54.809 this kind of epiphany, and he adopts poverty, 00:37:55.050 --> 00:37:58.110 and he gives up all of his wealth and his fancy 00:37:58.110 --> 00:38:01.309 clothes and everything, goes about helping the 00:38:01.309 --> 00:38:04.349 poor, the lepers. And he did that with such a 00:38:04.349 --> 00:38:07.630 kind of spirit of joy that he attracted, not 00:38:07.630 --> 00:38:10.789 to scorn, but wonder. And all these other young 00:38:10.789 --> 00:38:15.250 men, wealthy young men, in Assisi begin. giving 00:38:15.250 --> 00:38:17.150 up all their wealth and going to follow him. 00:38:17.329 --> 00:38:19.769 And it began to be like a brush fire that swept 00:38:19.769 --> 00:38:22.130 through Europe, this kind of Franciscan fever. 00:38:23.230 --> 00:38:25.869 And if you can imagine what it would take for 00:38:25.869 --> 00:38:29.230 a kind of fever of nonviolence, a fever of hope, 00:38:29.349 --> 00:38:33.789 a fever of peace, a pandemic of goodness to just 00:38:33.789 --> 00:38:38.389 kind of spread. And that's what we're called 00:38:38.389 --> 00:38:41.269 to be in our own little small way, not to measure 00:38:41.269 --> 00:38:44.590 the consequences or the extent of that. but to 00:38:44.590 --> 00:38:47.329 wherever we are in our own little place, among 00:38:47.329 --> 00:38:49.969 our neighbors, in our own little moment in history, 00:38:50.110 --> 00:38:54.130 to do what we can to provide that light. Wow, 00:38:54.230 --> 00:38:56.389 that is so beautiful. Maybe that's a good way 00:38:56.389 --> 00:38:59.289 to end with a beautiful encouragement that we're 00:38:59.289 --> 00:39:02.130 called to be that too and to live hopefully like 00:39:02.130 --> 00:39:05.630 your father and spread the contagion of peace, 00:39:05.650 --> 00:39:07.909 love, and nonviolence. Thank you so much, Robert 00:39:07.909 --> 00:39:10.130 Ellsberg, for speaking with me today, and I hope 00:39:10.130 --> 00:39:13.380 you'll come again. Talk with me again someday. 00:39:14.400 --> 00:39:16.280 Thank you, friends, for listening to the Nonviolent 00:39:16.280 --> 00:39:19.420 Jesus Podcast. You can hear more podcasts and 00:39:19.420 --> 00:39:24.500 find other upcoming Zoom programs at www .beatitudescenter 00:39:24.500 --> 00:39:28.039 .org. Please consider leaving a little donation 00:39:28.039 --> 00:39:31.000 to support this free work. And if you can, please 00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:34.320 share some positive feedback or review at the 00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:36.800 National Catholic Reporter or Apple or Spotify 00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:39.539 or YouTube or Substack or whatever platform you 00:39:39.539 --> 00:39:42.500 use. And please help spread the word of the Nonviolent 00:39:42.500 --> 00:39:45.539 Jesus Podcast. by telling all your friends and 00:39:45.539 --> 00:39:48.960 fellow church workers. May the God of peace bless 00:39:48.960 --> 00:39:52.019 you all. Keep on following the nonviolent Jesus. 00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:55.280 See you next time, and a very happy new year.