Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm
John, Father John Deere, and today you're about
to hear our highlights from all the 2025 podcasts.
This is a project of BeatitudeCenter .org, where
you can find many other podcasts and regular
Zoom programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and
practicing nonviolence and working for a more
just, more nonviolent world. So let's begin with
a little prayer. I just invite you to take a
deep breath and relax and recenter yourself and
enter into the presence of the God of peace who
loves you infinitely, personally, and everyone
everywhere. And let's welcome the risen nonviolent
Jesus with us and ask for the grace to follow
the nonviolent Jesus more faithfully in the new
year and to do God's will. God of peace, thank
you for all the blessings of life and love and
peace that you give us. Bless us, inspire us,
disarm us, strengthen us, and send us out. to
do your will, to do our part to help end poverty,
racism, greed and war, injustice, nuclear weapons,
fascism, environmental destruction, that we might
follow the nonviolent Jesus ever more faithfully
and be your holy peacemakers and welcome your
reign of universal love, nonviolence, and peace
on earth. Amen. Merry Christmas, everyone. So
it's the end of 2025, and in this episode, we're
offering highlights from all the many podcasts
we've recorded this year. Let me first begin
by thanking my team. Rob Vermeulen, the engineer,
and Leanne Vermeulen, the producer, for all their
hard work this year and for planning this special
episode. Let me also thank the Beatitude Center
board, our great administrative assistant, Cassandra
Sousa, and our great techie, Garrett Matsura.
Of course, there's no way we could really edit
together a sort of greatest hits because there
was so much packed in in these episodes. Let
me do suggest, if you haven't already, to go
back and listen to the episodes you've missed,
or if you haven't really heard any of them, binge
on all of them. And the best place is just to
go back to BeatitudeCenter .org to the podcast
page, and there you will find a complete list
of all the episodes and the guests, and all you
have to do is click on one, and it starts playing.
So here are a few samples of the wonderful people
who have taught us, inspired us, encouraged us,
and offered us. us hope to keep on following
the nonviolent Jesus this year. Enjoy. Martin
Sheen is one of our most celebrated award -winning
actors from movies such as Apocalypse Now, Gandhi,
Selma, The American President, Gettysburg, The
Way, Badlands, and many more. And of course,
the star of the TV series, The West Wing, where
he played President Bartlett. But Martin is also
perhaps the most committed activist celebrity
who's been speaking out against war, injustice,
homelessness, nuclear weapons, and advocating
for justice, disarmament, and peace for many,
many, many decades. Hello, Martin, and welcome
to my Nonviolent Jesus podcast. Hi, thank you
so much, John. Thank you for that beautiful prayer
and introduction. I'm delighted to be with you.
It is a journey, yeah. And I don't have any advice
to give anyone except to just continue to stay
in touch with that deeply personal, nonviolent
Jesus. Because if it's not personal, if Jesus
is not personal, he's impersonal to us. You know,
I was going to ask you about that. Let me ask
you, because you said that at Philip Berrigan's
funeral, It was amazing. We remember we were
marching and it was a cold, rainy day following
the casket. And there were thousands of us and
we're going to the funeral. And Amy Goodman of
Democracy Now! was interviewing you and I was
standing next to you. And you said, so what did
you think about Philip Berrigan, who spent, by
the way, folks, 11 years of his life in prison
for protesting war? And you said, without missing
a beat to Amy Goodman, well, Phil took the gospel
personally. I've never heard anybody say that
before. And it's so obvious. That's what you're
just saying again now. Do you agree still? Yeah,
I think if we don't take it personal, it's impersonal.
And if it's impersonal, so what? You know, who
cares? You know, the phrase I use is, we have
to find a way to unite the will of the spirit
to the work of the flesh. And that, to me, is
peacemaking. That, to me, is my real Catholic
faith. That is where I meet the God of nonviolence.
That is where it gets real personal for me, is
that effort to unite the will of the Spirit to
the work of the flesh. And when you find that,
you know, the saying is, like Teilhard de Chardin
said, when we find out how deeply... We are loved.
We have discovered fire for the second time.
And I use that phrase in trying to inspire people
when I speak publicly about the journey that
we're all called to. And that is to, we're challenged
to find something in our lives worth fighting
for, something deeply personal and uncompromising,
something that unites the will of the Spirit
to the work of the flesh. And when we find that,
we have discovered fire for the second time.
Sister Helen Prejean is one of the world's most
beloved Catholic leaders and prophetic voices.
A sister of St. Joseph of Medi, she's one of
the world's leading voices against the death
penalty. She's the author of the best -selling
book, Dead Man Walking. Sister Helen Brayjohn,
welcome to my new podcast on the nonviolent Jesus.
Hey, this is very exciting, John. I'm really
glad to be a part of this. Thank you. Forgiveness
is perceived as weakness, just like mercy is
perceived as weakness. What, you're going to
have mercy? The John Wayne Jesus comes in there
and says, no, watch this, man, I'm getting even.
And that's the whole Rambo thing that has come
to us. But what is entailed in forgiving your
enemy? If it's not weakness, what is it? And
the way Lloyd LeBlanc put it was after his son
was murdered, he was consumed with anger. He
wanted to kill with his own bare hands Pat Sonier
and his brother who had killed his son. But here's
what he noticed. He kept praying, see, Jesus,
you got to help me, because he knew he wasn't
in alignment with what Jesus wanted of him in
his life and his own good heart. He knew he wasn't
in alignment with eternal life. And he kept praying.
And then when the prayer was answered, the way
it was answered in him was. that he realized
that his own anger was eating him alive. And
when he came to this realization with the grace
that was with it, he put up his hand toward me
like a stop, like this. And then he said, I said,
uh -uh, they killed my son, but I'm not going
to let them kill me. Because if I let this anger
keep going inside of me, I'm going to die. I'm
already dying. I'm making my wife cry. I'm neglecting
my daughter, Vicki. And he came to it as this
understanding, this deep compassion that these
were human beings. They had done this to his
son, but that he was not going to lose his life
because of it. And he was the only one in the
town that showed compassion to the mother of
Pat and Eddie Sonia, Gladys Sonia, who lived
in this little town of St. Martinville. He appears
at her front door one day. And he's got a basket
of fruit and he hands it to her and he said,
Sonia, I know you're having a tough time in this
town, but I want you to know I'm a parent just
like you. And we never know really completely
all our children might do. And I don't hold you
responsible for the death of David, our son.
And here, these are for you. And he gave her
a basket. Father Richard Rohr is a beloved Franciscan
priest, best -selling author, speaker, and founder
of the New Jerusalem Community in Cincinnati
back in 1971. And in 1987, he founded the Center
for Action and Contemplation in Albuquerque,
New Mexico. So, Richard, thank you so much for
all the great work you do and for joining me
today on this new podcast. You're very welcome.
I'm honored, and it's easy to talk with you.
Thank you. Thank you, Richard. I said, let me
tell you a secret. And I'd say it as clearly
as I could. I'm convinced that most men, even
those who think they're angry, are really sad.
And the room would come to a hushed. That was
so consistent over those many years. It was almost
like the turning point in the initiation rite.
Maybe I'm not as angry as I think I am. But the
trouble is we dualistically then thought all
anger was inherently wrong. And that wasn't what
I was trying to say. I think, like the prophets,
it's pretty appropriate to begin with anger.
If you aren't angry today at Ukraine, Gaza, Sudan,
the state of mental health and family relationships,
you're not looking. But the trouble is, it can't
stay there. It's like I always probably say obsessively,
it's both and. You have to begin with anger,
but it has to morph into a deeper realization,
which is pathos or pity or sadness or what Jeremiah
calls lamentation. Some of us are guilty, but
all of us are responsible. Isn't that great?
What does that mean for you, for us now? I know
that's a basic question, but I want to hear you
unpack it. You know, I think Jesus came to represent
solidarity with human suffering. and even solidarity
with human stupidity. Not the illusion that we
privately could overcome it. That created a religion
of purity codes and an obsession with being pure
and not evil. Denial of the shadow. And soon
we became so practiced at denying the shadow
that we literally can't see it. It's good. It's
my great pleasure to welcome today my friend
Sister Joan Chidester to reflect together on
Jesus and the Beatitudes. Listeners know Sister
Joan is an internationally known lecturer and
teacher, a columnist for the National Catholic
Reporter, and the author of some 60 books, including
The Time Is Now, Becoming Fully Human, Radical
Spirit, The Gift of Years, and The Rule of Benedict.
She has served as Benedictine prioress. of the
Benedictine Sisters of Erie and Benedictine Federation
President, the President of the Leadership Council
of Women Religious, and Co -Chair of the Global
Peace Initiative of Women. And I urge everyone
to check out our website, joanchiddister .org.
So welcome this morning, Sister Joan. I'm so
happy you're here. Oh, you are the little brother
of my life, John. I've always opened with the
hope that they would give the two of us the time
just to. share the ideas that we've picked up,
both of us, crossing the country and deepening
the Catholic heart. We get to do it now. And
you have done that, John. You know more people
in the church than the church knows. And as long
as they know you, they're going to be happy and
be loved. Thank you. So thank you for allowing
me to be part of this. I see seeing God very
Very easy anymore, John. It's in every perfect
rose. It's in every crying child. It's in every
old woman and her last breath. God is manifest
in the breath and the presence of everything
we see. The problem is we miss the portrait.
We don't know what we're seeing. There is no
other answer. But God is present. What is we
are the ones who are not present to the God who
is with us. Any good contemplative order will
tell you that every single day. One day, some
years ago, if all my sisters were here, they
would tell me. All I know is that I had a program
up and I got this far. I said, build your own
happiness group. That's what we're supposed to
be. That's what little parishes are supposed
to be. Little happiness groups, for heaven's
sakes. So I said, get one. And when I hung up,
I did it myself. You know, I went on. I knew
there were a group of people on. I said, you
know, you should all. You should all be doing
something together now after we've done this.
And then I said something like this. I'll tell
you what. Come back next Wednesday. We'll have
something for you. That's when Mary Lou and I
created Monasteries of the Heart, to which 30
,000 people still now connect. Well, it's my
great pleasure today to welcome my friend Brian
McLaren to reflect with us on following the nonviolent
Jesus in a time of rising authoritarianism. And
so with the growth of Christian nationalism,
oligarchy, fascism, here at home under the Trump
administration, with the Republican Party and
Fox News, as well as around the world, it's really
great to welcome you, Brian, to help us. understand
the nonviolent Jesus in light of this, how he
dealt with it in his day and how we can respond
today. Brian McLaren is, I think, one of the
greatest scripture scholars and theologians in
the world. He spent 24 years as a pastor in a
local congregation in Washington, D .C. And his
life and ministry changed when, as a young evangelical
pastor, he realized that he was called to be
a follower of Jesus, not simply a follower of
the Bible or a theological system or religious
hierarchy. And wow, Brian, doesn't that make
all the difference? I think we are all going
to have to keep our eyes open and listen for
the people who are organizing. You know, anything
you organize, I want to be part of because I
trust you so much. And those of us who are organizing
together, and we're going to have to keep our
ears open for the right time to do the right
thing. You know, there are times when Jesus is
in the middle of a huge crowd and he disappears
from the crowd. I think he knows this is not
the right time for me to get killed quite yet,
you know. And it's not because he's afraid. It's
because he has a strategy. But when the time
comes, he goes to Jerusalem and basically says,
okay, this is it. This is time for the life or
death confrontation. When you look at Jesus,
he's like the absolute. inverse of an authoritarian
leader. Instead of using fear, he invites people
toward faith, hope, and love. Instead of radically
dividing society, he creates tables and spaces
where we welcome everybody and we show love and
respect for everybody. Instead of gross distortion
of and diversion from the truth, he consistently
spoke the truth, even when it was painful. And
he often understood that if he spoke the truth
directly, nobody would even listen. So he often
spoke the truth indirectly through parables and
other masterful communication techniques to get
around the biases that are so deeply ingrained
in people. And then instead of the suppression
of dissent, he was an agent of dissent. He organized
public demonstrations to show an alternative,
non -authoritarian, non -violent way of life.
So it's my great pleasure to welcome today and
introduce everybody to the legendary Bryan Stevenson,
lawyer, founder, and executive director of Equal
Justice Initiative, also professor of law at
New York University Law School, and author of
the great best -selling book, Just Mercy, which
is also made into a terrific movie of the same
name, which I hope everybody will go and see
the movie and read the book. I thought we could
just start, Brian, by you giving us your take
on what's happening right now in Alabama and
the country in whatever way you want to talk
about it. Well, thank you. I do think we are
in a moment where the politics of fear and anger
are raging. They are raging in this country,
but they're raging all around the world. And
what's scary about that, is that when societies
allow themselves to be governed by fear and anger,
they start tolerating things we should never
tolerate. We start accepting things we should
never accept. When you look at human history,
in the worst moments of human history, you can
evaluate what happened during those tragic moments
and find at the core narratives of fear and anger.
shaping behavior, shaping policies, shaping the
functioning of government. The Holocaust can't
be understood without understanding how the Nazis
used narratives of fear and anger and directed
them at people who are Jewish or people who are
gay or people who were Roma to create this horrific
violence and destruction. You know, 30 years
ago, we saw A genocide in Rwanda where hundreds
of thousands of people were killed and the narratives
of fear and anger spread through that country
and just unconscionable things happened. When
I look at American history, the parts of our
history, the moments in our history when we did
the most destructive things were being guided
by those same narratives of fear and anger. And
we're in the midst of that now. We have elected
leaders that want everybody angry, that want
everybody fearful. And that has put us in this
valley that I think you have rightly described
as a really troubling time. And so for me, what
that means is that those of us who don't want
to give in to fear and anger have to become hopeful
and courageous. We have to become faithful truth
tellers. We have to stand when people say sit
down. We have to speak. When people say, be quiet,
the encouraging thing to me about this moment
is that we've seen this before. I'm the heir
of people who were enslaved in America, the grandson
of people who were terrorized during the period
of lynching, the child of people who were brutalized
by segregation. And my foreparents found a way
to cope, to survive, to endure, and to resist.
these narratives of fear and anger. I started
my education in a colored school. They didn't
let me go to the public schools. When I got to
the public schools after integration, the presumption
was I wasn't equipped, wasn't capable, wasn't
worthy to be there. And you had to navigate a
lot of those presumptions. I think we're better
positioned than we've ever been before to overcome
these narratives of fear and anger. But it's
going to require some work. It's going to require
some faith. It's going to require... some activism.
It's going to require some believing in our capacity
to do better than what we're seeing in this particular
moment. For me, and I wrote in Just Mercy about
how going to death row when I was a law student
completely changed me. Meeting a condemned man
on death row, sitting down with him and forgetting
that I was a law student and forgetting that
he was a condemned prisoner, And just talking
to him for two or three hours and then getting
lost in his humanity and the fellowship we were
creating in that horrid space. And then having
that visit interrupted by guards who were angry
that we were laughing and talking and bonding
and came into the room and grabbed him and put
the handcuffs back on his wrist and wrapped the
chain around his waist and put the metal shackles
on his ankles so violently and started shoving
him toward the door. And to see him treated so
badly and not be able to stop that mistreatment
really alarmed me. But then he got in front of
the door before he left that room, and he turned
to me and he said, Brian, don't worry about this.
You just come back. And then he did that thing
I'll never forget where he closed his eyes, threw
his head back, and began to sing. And he started
singing the hymn, I'm Pressing on the Upward
Way. New heights I'm gaining every day, still
praying as I'm onward bound. And then he said,
Lord, plant my feet on higher ground. And it
stunned everyone. The guards stopped. And then
they recovered and started pushing him down the
hallway. And you could hear the chains clanging,
but you could hear this man singing about higher
ground. Hearing his song was like a calling from
God. I knew then that I wanted to help condemned
people get to higher ground. And being proximate
to this condemned man and hearing his song changed
everything for me. I went back to Harvard Law
School. You couldn't get me out of the law school
library. I needed to know everything about habeas
corpus and res judicata and comedy and federalism
and all of the jurisprudence necessary to help
condemned people. But if I'm honest, if I've
helped anybody during my career, it's because
I got close to a condemned man and heard his
song. And I still believe, Father, that in jails
and prisons, people are singing. In places where
people are marginalized and excluded, in places
where people have been oppressed and ignored
and mistreated, there are songs still being sung.
And if we get close enough to hear those melodies,
to hear the humanity, to hear God's grace manifest
in the lives of the poor and those who are disfavored,
we find power, we find strength, we find knowledge,
we find wisdom. we find the capacity to make
a difference. And that is what has sustained
me in Alabama, in my work, is that relationship
to God's children who are often neglected, pushed
aside, condemned, incarcerated, forgotten. Well,
dear friends, listeners, it's a great pleasure
and a great blessing to welcome my friend, the
esteemed Dr. Cornel West here with us. Like millions
of others, I consider Cornel West the leading
public intellectual in the United States, maybe
the world. For me, he's right up there with Emerson
and W .E .B. Dubois. Welcome, Brother Cornel
West, to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. My dear
brother, I want to begin by saluting you. I wanted
to begin by asking you just to talk about it
all, your take on what we're going through. Yeah,
I mean, I think you laid it out there, brother.
But as you know, I mean, any empire has been
about 70 of them since the beginning of the species.
United States, number 68. They come and go. They
peak. They begin to decay and decline, usually
as a result of military outreach. We've got,
what, 800 military units around the world. facilitating
genocide right now in Gaza. pulling back in many
ways and still indirectly connected to genocide
in Sudan. Usually the empires began to connect
that military overreach with corruption of elites
across the board, not just political parties,
but of upper classes and wealthy classes who
began to view life as a gold rush and therefore
end up worshipping the golden calf and transform
the golden rule to he who has the gold will rule
and think the chickens won't come home to roost.
And somehow you're not going to reap what you
sow. So it then is connected to impotence, a
sense of powerlessness and helplessness among
the citizenry. And that's how they end up out
of deep frustration and desperation, calling
for a strong man, a tyrant, a fascist, an authoritarian
figure, a dictator, whatever language you want
to use. But the last thing has to do with a spiritual
and moral vacuum. spiritual and moral emptiness,
which means that the citizenry find it more and
more difficult to be in contact with the best
of what has gone into them. historically, communally,
religiously, intellectually. That's one of the
reasons why the Martin Kings and Dorothy Days
and Philip and Daniel Berrigan's and so forth
are not household words, because they represent
the best of the history of the American empire.
And it's hard for people to get in contact with
their lives, their witnesses, their sacrifice,
their visions, their words, their utterances.
And so people end up having to choose. between
a number of options that have little to do with
the best of the history of their own country,
the history of their own empire, the history
of their own religions or whatever traditions
they're a part of. That's the makings of the
collapse of an empire. And that's what we are
witnessing. the collapse and implosion of the
American empire in real time. And of course,
Trump himself is a major factor, but he's as
much a sign and a symptom. He's not the cause
of it. The cause is the organized greed. The
cause is the weaponized hatred. The cause is
the institutionalized indifference toward the
least of these. You remember Rabbi Hester used
to say what? Indifference to evil is more insidious
than evil itself. that reinforces the unbelievable
levels of the spiritual wickedness, especially
in high places. And so we have to try to just
tell the truth about where we are, but recognize
that it's not really new. I mean, it's already
at work in Melville's Moby Dick, but Ahab, right?
You got the ship, it's multiracial, the queen
pod, you've got... The unbelievable obsession
with the whiteness of the well and white supremacy
itself tied to empire, tied to predatory capitalist
processes, is tied to very patriarchal and homophobic
and transphobic sensibilities that lose sight
of the rich sanctity and holiness and dignity
of human beings made in the image of a living
and loving God. Melville saw it way back in 1851.
Americans ought to know about their witness,
know about their courage. Very, very difficult
to keep these traditions alive. But that's what
you've been able to do in your life, and that's
what you do in this broadcast. But in the end,
we should never be surprised by evil or paralyzed
by despair, though, brother. Even when we tell
the truth about just how ugly the situation is,
we're blues. We blues people. We blues Christians.
Blues is about what? Telling the truth about
catastrophe. Understanding the cross as the ultimate
catastrophe. But knowing catastrophe or the cross
do not have the last word. To be a follower of
Jesus means to take up your cross, deny yourself
and follow him, give everything inside of you
that's been poured into you at your best, which
is the love, the courage, the integrity, the
honesty, focusing on the least of these, knowing
that the world will view you as foolish, that
through the lens of the dominant tendencies of
the world, you'll always be viewed as foolish.
Erasmus is right in praise of folly. Yes, it
is foolish to follow a Palestinian Jew named
Jesus that tells you to lead with love, that
tells you to love your way through the darkness,
the cruelty, the coldness of the world so you're
in the world but not of the world, that you're
not conformed but transformed by something bigger
than you, a grace that is given to you, a legacy,
a tradition, and memories of those who were part
of the same love train you tried to stay on.
We shall never forget him and the movement, and
we shall never cave in, give up, or sell our
souls for a mess of pottage. That's what persists
in the best of those of us who still have the
audacity to be followers of a Palestinian Jew
named Jesus. Welcome, and introduce everyone
to my friend, Reverend Emanuel Charles McCarthy,
one of the world's greatest teachers of Christian
nonviolence. My understanding, John, of nonviolence
is that nonviolence is an adjective or an adverb.
It is not a noun in the Gospels. Nonviolence
is the modifier. of what saves, which is love.
Love modeled on Jesus, love exemplified by Jesus,
love. Now, therefore, when people ask me for
a definition of nonviolence, what I mean by it,
I say, what I mean always is nonviolent love.
As modeled by Jesus, which means modeled by Jesus
in the gospel, which means it's a nonviolent
love, not just of my family, not just of my next
door neighbor. It's a nonviolent love of friends
and enemies, regardless of where they are, who
they are. And I kind of, you know, supplement
that by saying. The fact of the matter is Jesus
in the Gospels extends the word neighbor, love
of neighbor, that's in the Old Testament. He
extends it out to all human beings who are sons
and daughters of the Father. So nonviolence is,
for me, is nonviolent love of friends and enemies
in the model of Jesus in the Gospels. So is it
Christ -like love? that is imbuing, moving, motivating
the particular action that is called nonviolence,
or if someone else wants to say this is nonviolent,
without that, they can do that. But for me, if
the action is not motivated and imbued with Christlike
love, it is not going to be effective in countering
evil and death. in their multiplicity of manifestations
in this world. It's a great pleasure to welcome
my friend, Professor Stanley Hauerwas, one of
the world's greatest theologians and ethicists.
In 2001, Time magazine named Stanley Hauerwas
America's Best Theologian. Stanley, welcome to
the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. Thanks for being
here. It's so good to be with you, John. Thank
you. The Mennonites helped me see that it's not
like we have Jesus, and then we might think about
what implications there might be about nonviolence.
Jesus is nonviolence, and to be a worshiper...
Christ is to be shaped by a cross that is a manifestation
of God's love for the enemy in a way that makes
it possible for us to live with an enemy that
we must say, you can kill us, but you cannot
determine. the meaning of our deaths, because
the meaning of our deaths has been substantiated
by Christ's cross and resurrection. These are
deep issues theologically that the Church only
gestures toward, unfortunately, rather than makes
integral to. the kind of formation that we all
must receive for the worship of God. Well, it's
a great pleasure to welcome my friend John Fuglesang,
one of our great broadcasters, comedians, and
speakers. He has acted on CSI, hosted many TV
shows and podcasts. Memorably, I first caught
you, John, when you hosted that, I think it was
a V8 show with Paul McCartney in the mid -90s.
Yes, sir. And the famous last public appearance
of our hero George Harrison as well. John has
just published his first book, Congratulations,
Separation of Church and Hate, A Sane Person's
Guide to Taking Back the Bible from Fundamentalist,
Fascist, and Flock -Fleecing Frauds from Simon
& Schuster. John Fugel saying welcome to the
Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. Thank you. It's such
a pleasure to be here with you and with your
audience. I really appreciate it. God commands
the Israelites to welcome the stranger, commands
the Hebrews to treat the alien as one of your
own. Christ shows up in Matthew 25 and says individuals
and nations will be judged by how they welcome
the stranger. I'm not saying we shouldn't have
any standards on who enters the country. To me,
it's all about the criminalization of migrants.
I don't call them illegals. I call them Christian
refugees because it's true and it upsets the
right people. But go ahead and make them argue
with God. Don't get angry with your xenophobic
uncle at Thanksgiving. Just say, well, God says
this. Jesus says this. Why should I listen to
you and Donald Trump and Stephen Miller and reject
the words of God and Jesus? Why are God and Jesus
wrong? Let them argue with the scripture. So
I wrote the book for all the nice Christians
out there who are tired of seeing the religion
hijacked. Thank you. And because also, if I may,
because the media is not going to take it back.
The media is never going to ask tough questions.
They'll never ask any of these homophobes, where
does Jesus drive the gay wedding cakes out of
the temple? And the Democratic Party is going
to be too terrified to ever stand up and say
the truth, which is. There's no possible way
you can follow both Donald Trump and Jesus unless
you've neither read either one of their books.
So it's up to us. And like all social movements
of justice, it's going to come from people working
together, one heart and one mind at a time. These
people are going to try to, you know, wage war,
create dominance for themselves on Earth, and
they're using Jesus as their camouflage. So I
mainly wrote this book to be. a guide to camouflage
removal because you don't get to inflict violence
to solve problems and it's another reason why
it was very strange to write this book about
how to take down christian nationalism and racism
with non -violence and humor in scripture the
same week we see somebody use a bullet to take
down one of the most famous christian nationalists
and bigots in our society and it just broke my
heart john because um i've dealt with charlie
kirk he came at me i'll never claim that uh he
was fighting for the gospel um his many many
racist statements and cruel statements are out
there uh i don't need to recount them all your
listeners can google the very real things this
man said and the delight he took and the suffering
and violence towards others but on the flip side
we had so many friends on the left uh who were
just celebrating this this disgusting violence
because nazis deserve it And how do I embrace
that? I said so many horrible, vulgar things
when I was younger, John. I made so many mistakes.
I said so many things that I thought was righteous
and powerful and strong that were actually cruel
and stupid. And I got lucky that I got to grow
old and be lame. Charlie Kirk is never going
to get to grow old. He's never going to get to
lose debates. have his heart opened. He's never
going to get to have a black friend or a gay
friend or a transgender friend or an immigrant
friend. He's not going to get to see Trumpism
fail and be humbled by losing a lot of debates
and losing his funding. He's going to be locked
in that immature place. Well, it's a pleasure
to welcome Paul Chappelle today to our podcast.
Paul is an international peace educator and founder
of Peace Literacy. He graduated from West Point.
was deployed to Iraq, left active duty as a captain,
then realizing that, as he says, humanity is
facing new challenges that require us to become
as well -trained in waging peace as soldiers
are in waging war, he founded Peace Literacy
to help students and adults from all backgrounds
work toward their full potential as peacemakers
for a more peaceful world. So peace literacy
teaches that peace is not merely a goal, but
a practical skill set. Paul, welcome to the Nonviolent
Jesus podcast. Thank you, John, for having me.
Thank you so much. Something we talk about is
how humans have this natural aversion. We have
a natural aversion to hurting and killing other
humans. So we have a natural aversion to hurting
and killing other humans. And all the military
history shows that this is how we are. Every
war. every genocide, every form of slavery, they
all require dehumanization. There's never been
a war, never been a form of slavery, never been
a genocide that hasn't used dehumanization, as
you know. And the purpose of dehumanization is
to protect the mind from feeling guilt and remorse.
If we hurt people and we think that they're like
us, we'll feel guilty, we'll feel remorseful.
And so dehumanization's purpose is to protect
the mind from feeling that. If we don't teach
people peace literacy if we don't teach people
non -violence and we're teaching people the opposite
i mean that's not going to be a good outcome
right and i think a lot of people got complacent
they just thought that peace is inevitable we
talk a lot about how war is not inevitable we
talk about how humans are not naturally violent
yet humans can become incredibly violent through
trauma and other forms of not trauma manipulation
things like that can propel people into extremely
violent behavior and we aren't teaching people
any of these tools or skills we're teaching people
the opposite and we're seeing the the consequences
of that so Just as the idea that war is inevitable
is very dangerous, the idea that peace is inevitable
is also very dangerous. People think, well, we're
just on this trajectory toward a more peaceful
and just world. It's all written in stone. We
don't have to do anything. And we're just going
to have a more peaceful world. It's just going
to be an inevitable result of just the forces
of history when we really have to do something
to push humanity in that direction. And so what's
happening now are things that I thought were
going to happen for a number of years. I mean,
in March of 2016, I was telling people I thought
Donald Trump would win at least two terms. And
when he lost, I thought he was going to win in
2020. But when he lost in 2020, I was saying
I never said there were going to be consecutive
terms. I think he's going to win in 2024. And
I think that there are. Traumas and pains and
there are hungers in our society that aren't
being addressed and that are being ignored and
neglected. And there's an appetite for things
that we aren't addressing in a way that's going
to help deal with those root causes. So if we
don't teach peace and don't teach peace literacy
and don't teach nonviolence, this is necessary
for human survival. And if what we're seeing
in the world today doesn't show that, I'm not
sure what does. But I really think there are
explainable causes for why we're doing what we're
doing, and there is a path out of it. And so
if we can predict behavior and we understand
why that behavior is happening, we have a path
out of it, that leaves me hopeful. And it doesn't
matter how bad things seem to get. There is a
path. And I think in going back to what you asked
just about nonviolence is. The deeper knowing,
the deeper depths of understanding and knowing,
where you not just see, but you feel, you know
in this deeper way the dignity of human life
and animal life. It uplifts you. It uplifts everyone
around you. The path of trauma is just a dead
-end road to misery. It doesn't uplift anyone.
It hurts people around you. This is the path
out of the pain and the badness that people feel.
succumbing to rage and mistrust and alienation
it's not good for you it's not good for anyone
around you it's not good for the country it's
not good for the world so the fact that non -violence
helps people and uplifts people this is the path
that we need to take and people can benefit from
it as they move through that process It's a great
pleasure to welcome today my friend Kathy Kelly,
longtime peace activist, author, and Nobel Peace
Prize nominee. As we record this, Kathy is participating
in and helping to coordinate a 40 -day fast for
an end to the U .S.-backed Israeli genocide in
Gaza. Welcome, my friend, Kathy Kelly. Well,
thank you, John. I'm so glad that your podcasts
are reaching many people and that your commitment
to being a practitioner of nonviolence following
the nonviolent Jesus still reaches me. Thank
you. Well, I think about how Pope Francis truly
was a symbol of unity for Christians and others
all throughout the world. And I see Pope Leo.
entering in that direction as well. But for instance,
here in New York, we've gone to the, every Sunday,
gone to St. Patrick's Cathedral, and you don't
hear the hierarchs in New York speaking out.
So it's really dependent on people in the pews
to say, look, we do follow the nonviolent Jesus,
and we will speak out, even if the people...
appointed to lead us are themselves perhaps not
so able to do that for whatever reasons of compromised
conscience they might have. So I think the line
that it's important to remember is that the means
you use determines the end you get. And if you
use means of silence or indifference or changing
the subject. then that's what you'll get in the
end, you know, indifference and silence. But
if we use means that are kindly, compassionate,
but very determined, then I think we can reach
an end similar to what happened with South Africa.
You know, eventually the nations of the world
were able to say to the South African apartheid
government, you can no longer participate in
the family of nations. And then Nelson Mandela
was released from prison. So we're hoping that
that sort of playbook would be reenacted, that
the countries of the world will, out of frustration
but also out of conscience, say to the United
States and Israel, if Israel keeps flouting international
law, the countries of the world can't afford.
to see the edifice of international law chipped
away at because a few countries refused to abide
by it. When Jesus was in the temple and he went
to the money changers who were supporting oppression
of ordinary Palestinians, and particularly poor
Palestinians, he turned over that table. And
I think that we could turn over the tables if
we became more linked together. And that's not
so easy always, but we can find the kindred spirits
and say, all right, let's together say we're
not going to allow that table to be upright and
find nonviolent ways to turn it over. And that
means that we find who we can link up with and
keep on looking for those kindred spirits and
build those relationships, believing that. Ours
is to plant the seeds, and it may be for another
generation to reap the harvest. A Roman Catholic
sister of social service, Sister Simone is a
religious leader, attorney, author, and recipient
of the 2022 Presidential Medal of Freedom. Sister
Simone Campbell, welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus
Podcast. How great to be with you. We need everyone.
We need everyone involved. But the question is,
what is your piece to do? And that's where prayer,
where meditation becomes so important. Listen
to the wee small voice inside of what is your
piece to do. Everyone has a piece that needs
doing in this time. What's yours? Listen for
it and then act on it. It starts with... a contemplative
practice, quite frankly. I mean, this is how
it works for me. A contemplative practice, which
is about listening, deep listening to the needs
of the time and just being present and then acting
on what I hear. And what it has led me to is
what I call holy curiosity. Holy curiosity is
wanting to understand the other. It can be hopeless
if we don't respond. But for me, it really is
critically connected to touching the pain of
the world as real. Congressman Jamie Raskin,
welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. Well,
John, I feel like I finally made it by getting
on your podcast. Thank you for having me, man.
We're in the fight of our lives, and we have
been since the beginning of this nightmare. Democracy
is the precondition for freedom. And then democracy
itself is not just a static collection of rules
and procedures and rights. Democracy is a project,
and it's an unfinished. draft always. Democracy
is always moving forward. Tocqueville said in
Democracy in America that democracy and voting
rights in our country are either shrinking and
shriveling away or they're growing and expanding.
And we've clearly been in this terrible contractionary
mode with the Supreme Court. dismantling the
Voting Rights Act and so many voter suppression
and disenfranchisement mechanisms being adopted
by the GOP all over the country. We've got to
get back on the growth track for democracy. As
Dr. King said, you know, in his speech in Memphis
before his death, he said, all we say to America
is be true to what you said on paper. And so
we do have those organizing ideals and values
that we try to validate through social and political
struggle. And that's why I say democracy is not
just a system of rules and rights and values,
which it is, but it is also an unfinished draft.
It is a process in motion. It's a project. And
we're all invested in it. As things continue
to get worse and collapsing, that nonviolence
is needed now more than ever. I mean, even with
the threats of nuclear weapons and catastrophic
climate change. I wondered if you might say a
word or two about the role of people who are
teaching and promoting and strategizing and organizing
along Kingian nonviolence and Christian nonviolence
and how important that is everywhere in this
country as it's collapsing. Well, I think that's
the whole thing. And that's why I love your work
so much. I mean, I think this is the essence
of it. I mean, you know, democracy and the rule
of law, which supports democracy, which supports
in turn freedom. Democracy is the system which
relies on nonviolent verbal expression and conflict
resolution as opposed to. violent assault. And
at least so I would argue and so you would argue.
And I think everybody who wants our best religious
traditions to be embodied in political democracy.
Every day when I was growing up, my father used
to say, when everything looks hopeless, you're
the hope. And so everybody go out there and be
the hope for other people. who need you. Today
I'm speaking with my friend, the legendary singer
and activist Joan Baez. She's been against all
wars and injustices because she has a lifetime
commitment to nonviolence. So dear Joan Baez,
welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. I hope
I live up to that introduction. Great. When I
was 16, we started meeting with Iris Sandpearl
on first day, on Sunday, like Sunday school.
And the thoughts I had had, they began to form.
You know, he had us reading Gandhi and reading
Lao Tzu and eventually Huxley. And so it was
opening. My mind, to all of it, always in the
context of the Quakers and nonviolence. So I
never stepped out of that. I have another quote
for you. Good. It's T .S. Eliot. Yeah. For us,
there's only the trying and the rest is not our
business. I felt completely at home with King.
And I met him when there was a gathering of high
school students. And it was an annual affair.
And that's my first time there. And they always
had a speaker. And this year it was King. And
I started to cry at the beginning of the speech.
I cried all the way through. And because this
was a man who was doing what I've been reading
about. He was doing what I've been thinking about
and reading about. I have a short fuse and I
don't hurt anybody, but I get pissed off instantly.
an attempt to keep my mouth shut, and I'm not
very good at a peaceful response. As I say, I
keep it to myself. Well, that's peaceful then.
You're not responding. You're going to try to
get me out of this. I know you're going to try
and get me out of whatever feet I have in my
mouth, but I'm not cut out. It's an effort for
me. Part of me is absolutely all the things that
you say, because I came to it early. And because
even as a kid, I didn't like the quiet time with
the Quakers. That meditation has stayed with
me all through my life and is a very, very important
part of my life. I'd love you to read the new
poem. This is something you've written recently,
right? Yeah, this is recently. This is called
This Is Not Optimism. Says, I just wasted a day
and a half writing a long -winded response to
the question, are you an optimist? Really? In
this shitstorm? Are you kidding me? The simple
answer is no, I've never been an optimist. Does
that mean I ever gave up the fight against tyranny?
No, I never did. Most likely never will. I used
to be a pessimist until someone suggested it
was a waste of time. So I'm trying to quit. Being
an optimist may be a waste of time too, but at
least it's less depressing. Be an activist instead.
Carry your light out into this shitstorm. Keep
your eyes on the prize and shout, glory hallelujah,
goodness will prevail. This is not optimism.
This is a dance. Ain't gonna let nobody turn
me around, turn me around. Turn me around. Ain't
gonna let nobody turn me around. Keep on walking.
Keep on talking. Marching up to freedom land.
Ain't gonna let the administration turn me around.
Turn me around. Turn me around. Ain't gonna let
the administration turn me around. Keep on walking.
Keep on talking, keep on singing, keep on swinging,
marching up to freedom land. Thank you, dear
friends, for listening to this special year -end
episode of the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. You
can hear all the year's podcasts and find other
upcoming podcasts and Zoom programs at BeatitudeCenter
.org. And please consider offering a donation
to support this free work. Don't miss our many
other upcoming great podcasts, including my conversation
with Reverend Andrew Young for the Martin Luther
King Jr. holiday. May the God of peace bless
you all. Keep on following the nonviolent Jesus
as we go forward into the new year, and Merry
Christmas.