WEBVTT 00:00:16.519 --> 00:00:19.420 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:19.420 --> 00:00:21.859 John, Father John Deere, and today you're about 00:00:21.859 --> 00:00:26.039 to hear our highlights from all the 2025 podcasts. 00:00:26.480 --> 00:00:30.679 This is a project of BeatitudeCenter .org, where 00:00:30.679 --> 00:00:32.880 you can find many other podcasts and regular 00:00:32.880 --> 00:00:35.780 Zoom programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and 00:00:35.780 --> 00:00:38.179 practicing nonviolence and working for a more 00:00:38.179 --> 00:00:42.170 just, more nonviolent world. So let's begin with 00:00:42.170 --> 00:00:44.390 a little prayer. I just invite you to take a 00:00:44.390 --> 00:00:49.009 deep breath and relax and recenter yourself and 00:00:49.009 --> 00:00:52.469 enter into the presence of the God of peace who 00:00:52.469 --> 00:00:55.890 loves you infinitely, personally, and everyone 00:00:55.890 --> 00:00:59.289 everywhere. And let's welcome the risen nonviolent 00:00:59.289 --> 00:01:02.570 Jesus with us and ask for the grace to follow 00:01:02.570 --> 00:01:05.549 the nonviolent Jesus more faithfully in the new 00:01:05.549 --> 00:01:11.189 year and to do God's will. God of peace, thank 00:01:11.189 --> 00:01:14.090 you for all the blessings of life and love and 00:01:14.090 --> 00:01:17.829 peace that you give us. Bless us, inspire us, 00:01:17.950 --> 00:01:22.140 disarm us, strengthen us, and send us out. to 00:01:22.140 --> 00:01:24.900 do your will, to do our part to help end poverty, 00:01:25.079 --> 00:01:28.760 racism, greed and war, injustice, nuclear weapons, 00:01:28.939 --> 00:01:32.540 fascism, environmental destruction, that we might 00:01:32.540 --> 00:01:35.219 follow the nonviolent Jesus ever more faithfully 00:01:35.219 --> 00:01:38.459 and be your holy peacemakers and welcome your 00:01:38.459 --> 00:01:41.560 reign of universal love, nonviolence, and peace 00:01:41.560 --> 00:01:46.420 on earth. Amen. Merry Christmas, everyone. So 00:01:46.420 --> 00:01:49.439 it's the end of 2025, and in this episode, we're 00:01:49.439 --> 00:01:51.640 offering highlights from all the many podcasts 00:01:51.640 --> 00:01:54.700 we've recorded this year. Let me first begin 00:01:54.700 --> 00:01:58.620 by thanking my team. Rob Vermeulen, the engineer, 00:01:58.920 --> 00:02:01.760 and Leanne Vermeulen, the producer, for all their 00:02:01.760 --> 00:02:04.299 hard work this year and for planning this special 00:02:04.299 --> 00:02:07.340 episode. Let me also thank the Beatitude Center 00:02:07.340 --> 00:02:11.080 board, our great administrative assistant, Cassandra 00:02:11.080 --> 00:02:14.340 Sousa, and our great techie, Garrett Matsura. 00:02:14.919 --> 00:02:17.379 Of course, there's no way we could really edit 00:02:17.379 --> 00:02:19.740 together a sort of greatest hits because there 00:02:19.740 --> 00:02:23.449 was so much packed in in these episodes. Let 00:02:23.449 --> 00:02:26.870 me do suggest, if you haven't already, to go 00:02:26.870 --> 00:02:29.129 back and listen to the episodes you've missed, 00:02:29.189 --> 00:02:31.830 or if you haven't really heard any of them, binge 00:02:31.830 --> 00:02:34.750 on all of them. And the best place is just to 00:02:34.750 --> 00:02:38.409 go back to BeatitudeCenter .org to the podcast 00:02:38.409 --> 00:02:41.069 page, and there you will find a complete list 00:02:41.069 --> 00:02:42.990 of all the episodes and the guests, and all you 00:02:42.990 --> 00:02:45.270 have to do is click on one, and it starts playing. 00:02:45.729 --> 00:02:48.430 So here are a few samples of the wonderful people 00:02:48.430 --> 00:02:51.610 who have taught us, inspired us, encouraged us, 00:02:51.710 --> 00:02:54.280 and offered us. us hope to keep on following 00:02:54.280 --> 00:03:03.280 the nonviolent Jesus this year. Enjoy. Martin 00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:06.099 Sheen is one of our most celebrated award -winning 00:03:06.099 --> 00:03:10.319 actors from movies such as Apocalypse Now, Gandhi, 00:03:10.560 --> 00:03:13.979 Selma, The American President, Gettysburg, The 00:03:13.979 --> 00:03:17.680 Way, Badlands, and many more. And of course, 00:03:17.699 --> 00:03:20.060 the star of the TV series, The West Wing, where 00:03:20.060 --> 00:03:23.699 he played President Bartlett. But Martin is also 00:03:23.699 --> 00:03:26.199 perhaps the most committed activist celebrity 00:03:26.199 --> 00:03:29.159 who's been speaking out against war, injustice, 00:03:29.639 --> 00:03:31.740 homelessness, nuclear weapons, and advocating 00:03:31.740 --> 00:03:35.400 for justice, disarmament, and peace for many, 00:03:35.539 --> 00:03:38.520 many, many decades. Hello, Martin, and welcome 00:03:38.520 --> 00:03:42.460 to my Nonviolent Jesus podcast. Hi, thank you 00:03:42.460 --> 00:03:45.259 so much, John. Thank you for that beautiful prayer 00:03:45.259 --> 00:03:47.539 and introduction. I'm delighted to be with you. 00:03:48.750 --> 00:03:53.969 It is a journey, yeah. And I don't have any advice 00:03:53.969 --> 00:03:59.789 to give anyone except to just continue to stay 00:03:59.789 --> 00:04:03.129 in touch with that deeply personal, nonviolent 00:04:03.129 --> 00:04:06.110 Jesus. Because if it's not personal, if Jesus 00:04:06.110 --> 00:04:10.330 is not personal, he's impersonal to us. You know, 00:04:10.469 --> 00:04:12.490 I was going to ask you about that. Let me ask 00:04:12.490 --> 00:04:15.590 you, because you said that at Philip Berrigan's 00:04:15.590 --> 00:04:18.339 funeral, It was amazing. We remember we were 00:04:18.339 --> 00:04:20.939 marching and it was a cold, rainy day following 00:04:20.939 --> 00:04:23.860 the casket. And there were thousands of us and 00:04:23.860 --> 00:04:25.899 we're going to the funeral. And Amy Goodman of 00:04:25.899 --> 00:04:27.879 Democracy Now! was interviewing you and I was 00:04:27.879 --> 00:04:29.899 standing next to you. And you said, so what did 00:04:29.899 --> 00:04:32.980 you think about Philip Berrigan, who spent, by 00:04:32.980 --> 00:04:35.980 the way, folks, 11 years of his life in prison 00:04:35.980 --> 00:04:39.120 for protesting war? And you said, without missing 00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:42.160 a beat to Amy Goodman, well, Phil took the gospel 00:04:42.160 --> 00:04:45.269 personally. I've never heard anybody say that 00:04:45.269 --> 00:04:48.350 before. And it's so obvious. That's what you're 00:04:48.350 --> 00:04:52.350 just saying again now. Do you agree still? Yeah, 00:04:52.529 --> 00:04:56.269 I think if we don't take it personal, it's impersonal. 00:04:56.290 --> 00:04:58.970 And if it's impersonal, so what? You know, who 00:04:58.970 --> 00:05:04.350 cares? You know, the phrase I use is, we have 00:05:04.350 --> 00:05:07.110 to find a way to unite the will of the spirit 00:05:07.110 --> 00:05:09.779 to the work of the flesh. And that, to me, is 00:05:09.779 --> 00:05:13.319 peacemaking. That, to me, is my real Catholic 00:05:13.319 --> 00:05:17.060 faith. That is where I meet the God of nonviolence. 00:05:17.060 --> 00:05:21.060 That is where it gets real personal for me, is 00:05:21.060 --> 00:05:25.519 that effort to unite the will of the Spirit to 00:05:25.519 --> 00:05:30.040 the work of the flesh. And when you find that, 00:05:30.199 --> 00:05:33.199 you know, the saying is, like Teilhard de Chardin 00:05:33.199 --> 00:05:37.740 said, when we find out how deeply... We are loved. 00:05:37.860 --> 00:05:40.740 We have discovered fire for the second time. 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:45.220 And I use that phrase in trying to inspire people 00:05:45.220 --> 00:05:48.319 when I speak publicly about the journey that 00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:52.540 we're all called to. And that is to, we're challenged 00:05:52.540 --> 00:05:56.959 to find something in our lives worth fighting 00:05:56.959 --> 00:06:00.019 for, something deeply personal and uncompromising, 00:06:00.019 --> 00:06:02.519 something that unites the will of the Spirit 00:06:02.519 --> 00:06:05.420 to the work of the flesh. And when we find that, 00:06:05.920 --> 00:06:08.480 we have discovered fire for the second time. 00:06:14.040 --> 00:06:17.079 Sister Helen Prejean is one of the world's most 00:06:17.079 --> 00:06:19.819 beloved Catholic leaders and prophetic voices. 00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:23.480 A sister of St. Joseph of Medi, she's one of 00:06:23.480 --> 00:06:25.399 the world's leading voices against the death 00:06:25.399 --> 00:06:27.980 penalty. She's the author of the best -selling 00:06:27.980 --> 00:06:31.730 book, Dead Man Walking. Sister Helen Brayjohn, 00:06:31.889 --> 00:06:34.769 welcome to my new podcast on the nonviolent Jesus. 00:06:35.470 --> 00:06:38.449 Hey, this is very exciting, John. I'm really 00:06:38.449 --> 00:06:44.149 glad to be a part of this. Thank you. Forgiveness 00:06:44.149 --> 00:06:47.970 is perceived as weakness, just like mercy is 00:06:47.970 --> 00:06:50.610 perceived as weakness. What, you're going to 00:06:50.610 --> 00:06:53.769 have mercy? The John Wayne Jesus comes in there 00:06:53.769 --> 00:06:56.829 and says, no, watch this, man, I'm getting even. 00:06:57.720 --> 00:07:00.000 And that's the whole Rambo thing that has come 00:07:00.000 --> 00:07:03.480 to us. But what is entailed in forgiving your 00:07:03.480 --> 00:07:07.660 enemy? If it's not weakness, what is it? And 00:07:07.660 --> 00:07:10.540 the way Lloyd LeBlanc put it was after his son 00:07:10.540 --> 00:07:15.079 was murdered, he was consumed with anger. He 00:07:15.079 --> 00:07:19.519 wanted to kill with his own bare hands Pat Sonier 00:07:19.519 --> 00:07:23.389 and his brother who had killed his son. But here's 00:07:23.389 --> 00:07:26.730 what he noticed. He kept praying, see, Jesus, 00:07:26.829 --> 00:07:28.730 you got to help me, because he knew he wasn't 00:07:28.730 --> 00:07:32.870 in alignment with what Jesus wanted of him in 00:07:32.870 --> 00:07:36.750 his life and his own good heart. He knew he wasn't 00:07:36.750 --> 00:07:41.329 in alignment with eternal life. And he kept praying. 00:07:42.110 --> 00:07:45.990 And then when the prayer was answered, the way 00:07:45.990 --> 00:07:49.259 it was answered in him was. that he realized 00:07:49.259 --> 00:07:53.779 that his own anger was eating him alive. And 00:07:53.779 --> 00:07:56.439 when he came to this realization with the grace 00:07:56.439 --> 00:07:59.579 that was with it, he put up his hand toward me 00:07:59.579 --> 00:08:02.439 like a stop, like this. And then he said, I said, 00:08:02.579 --> 00:08:07.019 uh -uh, they killed my son, but I'm not going 00:08:07.019 --> 00:08:10.560 to let them kill me. Because if I let this anger 00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:13.199 keep going inside of me, I'm going to die. I'm 00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:16.740 already dying. I'm making my wife cry. I'm neglecting 00:08:16.740 --> 00:08:20.430 my daughter, Vicki. And he came to it as this 00:08:20.430 --> 00:08:24.990 understanding, this deep compassion that these 00:08:24.990 --> 00:08:27.889 were human beings. They had done this to his 00:08:27.889 --> 00:08:31.970 son, but that he was not going to lose his life 00:08:31.970 --> 00:08:34.269 because of it. And he was the only one in the 00:08:34.269 --> 00:08:39.210 town that showed compassion to the mother of 00:08:39.210 --> 00:08:41.529 Pat and Eddie Sonia, Gladys Sonia, who lived 00:08:41.529 --> 00:08:44.529 in this little town of St. Martinville. He appears 00:08:44.529 --> 00:08:48.039 at her front door one day. And he's got a basket 00:08:48.039 --> 00:08:50.799 of fruit and he hands it to her and he said, 00:08:50.919 --> 00:08:53.600 Sonia, I know you're having a tough time in this 00:08:53.600 --> 00:08:58.139 town, but I want you to know I'm a parent just 00:08:58.139 --> 00:09:01.399 like you. And we never know really completely 00:09:01.399 --> 00:09:04.240 all our children might do. And I don't hold you 00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:07.220 responsible for the death of David, our son. 00:09:07.399 --> 00:09:09.559 And here, these are for you. And he gave her 00:09:09.559 --> 00:09:22.379 a basket. Father Richard Rohr is a beloved Franciscan 00:09:22.379 --> 00:09:25.899 priest, best -selling author, speaker, and founder 00:09:25.899 --> 00:09:28.100 of the New Jerusalem Community in Cincinnati 00:09:28.100 --> 00:09:33.740 back in 1971. And in 1987, he founded the Center 00:09:33.740 --> 00:09:36.379 for Action and Contemplation in Albuquerque, 00:09:36.460 --> 00:09:39.980 New Mexico. So, Richard, thank you so much for 00:09:39.980 --> 00:09:42.120 all the great work you do and for joining me 00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:45.000 today on this new podcast. You're very welcome. 00:09:45.710 --> 00:09:49.029 I'm honored, and it's easy to talk with you. 00:09:49.090 --> 00:09:52.909 Thank you. Thank you, Richard. I said, let me 00:09:52.909 --> 00:09:57.509 tell you a secret. And I'd say it as clearly 00:09:57.509 --> 00:10:02.990 as I could. I'm convinced that most men, even 00:10:02.990 --> 00:10:09.090 those who think they're angry, are really sad. 00:10:10.470 --> 00:10:16.799 And the room would come to a hushed. That was 00:10:16.799 --> 00:10:21.899 so consistent over those many years. It was almost 00:10:21.899 --> 00:10:26.879 like the turning point in the initiation rite. 00:10:27.960 --> 00:10:33.340 Maybe I'm not as angry as I think I am. But the 00:10:33.340 --> 00:10:36.720 trouble is we dualistically then thought all 00:10:36.720 --> 00:10:40.679 anger was inherently wrong. And that wasn't what 00:10:40.679 --> 00:10:45.250 I was trying to say. I think, like the prophets, 00:10:45.570 --> 00:10:51.769 it's pretty appropriate to begin with anger. 00:10:52.769 --> 00:11:00.690 If you aren't angry today at Ukraine, Gaza, Sudan, 00:11:01.269 --> 00:11:07.769 the state of mental health and family relationships, 00:11:08.250 --> 00:11:13.620 you're not looking. But the trouble is, it can't 00:11:13.620 --> 00:11:18.720 stay there. It's like I always probably say obsessively, 00:11:18.840 --> 00:11:22.879 it's both and. You have to begin with anger, 00:11:23.039 --> 00:11:28.720 but it has to morph into a deeper realization, 00:11:28.940 --> 00:11:35.539 which is pathos or pity or sadness or what Jeremiah 00:11:35.539 --> 00:11:42.559 calls lamentation. Some of us are guilty, but 00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:45.799 all of us are responsible. Isn't that great? 00:11:47.639 --> 00:11:51.740 What does that mean for you, for us now? I know 00:11:51.740 --> 00:11:53.919 that's a basic question, but I want to hear you 00:11:53.919 --> 00:12:01.000 unpack it. You know, I think Jesus came to represent 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:09.600 solidarity with human suffering. and even solidarity 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:19.740 with human stupidity. Not the illusion that we 00:12:19.740 --> 00:12:24.620 privately could overcome it. That created a religion 00:12:24.620 --> 00:12:31.500 of purity codes and an obsession with being pure 00:12:31.500 --> 00:12:37.350 and not evil. Denial of the shadow. And soon 00:12:37.350 --> 00:12:41.769 we became so practiced at denying the shadow 00:12:41.769 --> 00:12:52.110 that we literally can't see it. It's good. It's 00:12:52.110 --> 00:12:54.470 my great pleasure to welcome today my friend 00:12:54.470 --> 00:12:58.629 Sister Joan Chidester to reflect together on 00:12:58.629 --> 00:13:03.590 Jesus and the Beatitudes. Listeners know Sister 00:13:03.590 --> 00:13:05.929 Joan is an internationally known lecturer and 00:13:05.929 --> 00:13:08.409 teacher, a columnist for the National Catholic 00:13:08.409 --> 00:13:11.710 Reporter, and the author of some 60 books, including 00:13:11.710 --> 00:13:15.429 The Time Is Now, Becoming Fully Human, Radical 00:13:15.429 --> 00:13:18.730 Spirit, The Gift of Years, and The Rule of Benedict. 00:13:19.049 --> 00:13:22.980 She has served as Benedictine prioress. of the 00:13:22.980 --> 00:13:26.019 Benedictine Sisters of Erie and Benedictine Federation 00:13:26.019 --> 00:13:29.059 President, the President of the Leadership Council 00:13:29.059 --> 00:13:32.179 of Women Religious, and Co -Chair of the Global 00:13:32.179 --> 00:13:34.960 Peace Initiative of Women. And I urge everyone 00:13:34.960 --> 00:13:38.460 to check out our website, joanchiddister .org. 00:13:38.659 --> 00:13:42.000 So welcome this morning, Sister Joan. I'm so 00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:48.639 happy you're here. Oh, you are the little brother 00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:54.740 of my life, John. I've always opened with the 00:13:54.740 --> 00:13:59.080 hope that they would give the two of us the time 00:13:59.080 --> 00:14:05.250 just to. share the ideas that we've picked up, 00:14:05.269 --> 00:14:09.190 both of us, crossing the country and deepening 00:14:09.190 --> 00:14:12.129 the Catholic heart. We get to do it now. And 00:14:12.129 --> 00:14:15.809 you have done that, John. You know more people 00:14:15.809 --> 00:14:18.929 in the church than the church knows. And as long 00:14:18.929 --> 00:14:21.570 as they know you, they're going to be happy and 00:14:21.570 --> 00:14:24.629 be loved. Thank you. So thank you for allowing 00:14:24.629 --> 00:14:30.110 me to be part of this. I see seeing God very 00:14:30.600 --> 00:14:34.200 Very easy anymore, John. It's in every perfect 00:14:34.200 --> 00:14:38.639 rose. It's in every crying child. It's in every 00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:42.840 old woman and her last breath. God is manifest 00:14:42.840 --> 00:14:45.980 in the breath and the presence of everything 00:14:45.980 --> 00:14:50.500 we see. The problem is we miss the portrait. 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:55.100 We don't know what we're seeing. There is no 00:14:55.100 --> 00:14:59.940 other answer. But God is present. What is we 00:14:59.940 --> 00:15:03.039 are the ones who are not present to the God who 00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:06.779 is with us. Any good contemplative order will 00:15:06.779 --> 00:15:12.399 tell you that every single day. One day, some 00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:17.440 years ago, if all my sisters were here, they 00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:21.960 would tell me. All I know is that I had a program 00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:32.480 up and I got this far. I said, build your own 00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:35.620 happiness group. That's what we're supposed to 00:15:35.620 --> 00:15:38.399 be. That's what little parishes are supposed 00:15:38.399 --> 00:15:41.919 to be. Little happiness groups, for heaven's 00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:46.600 sakes. So I said, get one. And when I hung up, 00:15:46.820 --> 00:15:50.519 I did it myself. You know, I went on. I knew 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:53.500 there were a group of people on. I said, you 00:15:53.500 --> 00:15:57.070 know, you should all. You should all be doing 00:15:57.070 --> 00:15:59.950 something together now after we've done this. 00:16:00.110 --> 00:16:02.929 And then I said something like this. I'll tell 00:16:02.929 --> 00:16:05.610 you what. Come back next Wednesday. We'll have 00:16:05.610 --> 00:16:08.730 something for you. That's when Mary Lou and I 00:16:08.730 --> 00:16:13.669 created Monasteries of the Heart, to which 30 00:16:13.669 --> 00:16:23.049 ,000 people still now connect. Well, it's my 00:16:23.049 --> 00:16:26.330 great pleasure today to welcome my friend Brian 00:16:26.330 --> 00:16:30.169 McLaren to reflect with us on following the nonviolent 00:16:30.169 --> 00:16:34.830 Jesus in a time of rising authoritarianism. And 00:16:34.830 --> 00:16:37.649 so with the growth of Christian nationalism, 00:16:37.950 --> 00:16:41.330 oligarchy, fascism, here at home under the Trump 00:16:41.330 --> 00:16:43.730 administration, with the Republican Party and 00:16:43.730 --> 00:16:47.809 Fox News, as well as around the world, it's really 00:16:47.809 --> 00:16:52.230 great to welcome you, Brian, to help us. understand 00:16:52.230 --> 00:16:55.809 the nonviolent Jesus in light of this, how he 00:16:55.809 --> 00:16:58.909 dealt with it in his day and how we can respond 00:16:58.909 --> 00:17:02.350 today. Brian McLaren is, I think, one of the 00:17:02.350 --> 00:17:04.470 greatest scripture scholars and theologians in 00:17:04.470 --> 00:17:07.710 the world. He spent 24 years as a pastor in a 00:17:07.710 --> 00:17:11.309 local congregation in Washington, D .C. And his 00:17:11.309 --> 00:17:13.829 life and ministry changed when, as a young evangelical 00:17:13.829 --> 00:17:16.690 pastor, he realized that he was called to be 00:17:16.690 --> 00:17:19.490 a follower of Jesus, not simply a follower of 00:17:19.490 --> 00:17:22.450 the Bible or a theological system or religious 00:17:22.450 --> 00:17:25.430 hierarchy. And wow, Brian, doesn't that make 00:17:25.430 --> 00:17:32.309 all the difference? I think we are all going 00:17:32.309 --> 00:17:35.210 to have to keep our eyes open and listen for 00:17:35.210 --> 00:17:38.069 the people who are organizing. You know, anything 00:17:38.069 --> 00:17:40.509 you organize, I want to be part of because I 00:17:40.509 --> 00:17:43.410 trust you so much. And those of us who are organizing 00:17:43.410 --> 00:17:46.569 together, and we're going to have to keep our 00:17:46.569 --> 00:17:48.930 ears open for the right time to do the right 00:17:48.930 --> 00:17:51.430 thing. You know, there are times when Jesus is 00:17:51.430 --> 00:17:53.849 in the middle of a huge crowd and he disappears 00:17:53.849 --> 00:17:56.589 from the crowd. I think he knows this is not 00:17:56.589 --> 00:17:58.609 the right time for me to get killed quite yet, 00:17:58.730 --> 00:18:02.150 you know. And it's not because he's afraid. It's 00:18:02.150 --> 00:18:06.099 because he has a strategy. But when the time 00:18:06.099 --> 00:18:08.759 comes, he goes to Jerusalem and basically says, 00:18:08.839 --> 00:18:12.119 okay, this is it. This is time for the life or 00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:16.480 death confrontation. When you look at Jesus, 00:18:16.680 --> 00:18:20.990 he's like the absolute. inverse of an authoritarian 00:18:20.990 --> 00:18:24.869 leader. Instead of using fear, he invites people 00:18:24.869 --> 00:18:27.990 toward faith, hope, and love. Instead of radically 00:18:27.990 --> 00:18:31.609 dividing society, he creates tables and spaces 00:18:31.609 --> 00:18:35.069 where we welcome everybody and we show love and 00:18:35.069 --> 00:18:38.089 respect for everybody. Instead of gross distortion 00:18:38.089 --> 00:18:41.069 of and diversion from the truth, he consistently 00:18:41.069 --> 00:18:43.930 spoke the truth, even when it was painful. And 00:18:43.930 --> 00:18:46.250 he often understood that if he spoke the truth 00:18:46.250 --> 00:18:49.799 directly, nobody would even listen. So he often 00:18:49.799 --> 00:18:53.119 spoke the truth indirectly through parables and 00:18:53.119 --> 00:18:58.480 other masterful communication techniques to get 00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:01.259 around the biases that are so deeply ingrained 00:19:01.259 --> 00:19:03.619 in people. And then instead of the suppression 00:19:03.619 --> 00:19:07.400 of dissent, he was an agent of dissent. He organized 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:11.519 public demonstrations to show an alternative, 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:15.160 non -authoritarian, non -violent way of life. 00:19:19.470 --> 00:19:22.309 So it's my great pleasure to welcome today and 00:19:22.309 --> 00:19:26.430 introduce everybody to the legendary Bryan Stevenson, 00:19:26.490 --> 00:19:29.049 lawyer, founder, and executive director of Equal 00:19:29.049 --> 00:19:32.009 Justice Initiative, also professor of law at 00:19:32.009 --> 00:19:35.630 New York University Law School, and author of 00:19:35.630 --> 00:19:39.170 the great best -selling book, Just Mercy, which 00:19:39.170 --> 00:19:42.109 is also made into a terrific movie of the same 00:19:42.109 --> 00:19:44.250 name, which I hope everybody will go and see 00:19:44.250 --> 00:19:49.259 the movie and read the book. I thought we could 00:19:49.259 --> 00:19:52.180 just start, Brian, by you giving us your take 00:19:52.180 --> 00:19:56.420 on what's happening right now in Alabama and 00:19:56.420 --> 00:19:59.019 the country in whatever way you want to talk 00:19:59.019 --> 00:20:03.160 about it. Well, thank you. I do think we are 00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:07.519 in a moment where the politics of fear and anger 00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:11.579 are raging. They are raging in this country, 00:20:11.700 --> 00:20:15.740 but they're raging all around the world. And 00:20:15.740 --> 00:20:19.299 what's scary about that, is that when societies 00:20:19.299 --> 00:20:23.319 allow themselves to be governed by fear and anger, 00:20:23.539 --> 00:20:26.579 they start tolerating things we should never 00:20:26.579 --> 00:20:29.920 tolerate. We start accepting things we should 00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:32.059 never accept. When you look at human history, 00:20:32.200 --> 00:20:36.339 in the worst moments of human history, you can 00:20:36.339 --> 00:20:39.319 evaluate what happened during those tragic moments 00:20:39.319 --> 00:20:44.240 and find at the core narratives of fear and anger. 00:20:44.920 --> 00:20:49.440 shaping behavior, shaping policies, shaping the 00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:52.519 functioning of government. The Holocaust can't 00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:56.039 be understood without understanding how the Nazis 00:20:56.039 --> 00:20:59.339 used narratives of fear and anger and directed 00:20:59.339 --> 00:21:02.900 them at people who are Jewish or people who are 00:21:02.900 --> 00:21:08.799 gay or people who were Roma to create this horrific 00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:12.180 violence and destruction. You know, 30 years 00:21:12.180 --> 00:21:16.250 ago, we saw A genocide in Rwanda where hundreds 00:21:16.250 --> 00:21:18.569 of thousands of people were killed and the narratives 00:21:18.569 --> 00:21:21.390 of fear and anger spread through that country 00:21:21.390 --> 00:21:24.509 and just unconscionable things happened. When 00:21:24.509 --> 00:21:27.670 I look at American history, the parts of our 00:21:27.670 --> 00:21:29.390 history, the moments in our history when we did 00:21:29.390 --> 00:21:32.009 the most destructive things were being guided 00:21:32.009 --> 00:21:35.970 by those same narratives of fear and anger. And 00:21:35.970 --> 00:21:38.250 we're in the midst of that now. We have elected 00:21:38.250 --> 00:21:40.809 leaders that want everybody angry, that want 00:21:40.809 --> 00:21:44.839 everybody fearful. And that has put us in this 00:21:44.839 --> 00:21:47.460 valley that I think you have rightly described 00:21:47.460 --> 00:21:51.339 as a really troubling time. And so for me, what 00:21:51.339 --> 00:21:54.880 that means is that those of us who don't want 00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:58.740 to give in to fear and anger have to become hopeful 00:21:58.740 --> 00:22:03.119 and courageous. We have to become faithful truth 00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:07.380 tellers. We have to stand when people say sit 00:22:07.380 --> 00:22:11.519 down. We have to speak. When people say, be quiet, 00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:14.000 the encouraging thing to me about this moment 00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:18.460 is that we've seen this before. I'm the heir 00:22:18.460 --> 00:22:23.539 of people who were enslaved in America, the grandson 00:22:23.539 --> 00:22:25.599 of people who were terrorized during the period 00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:28.839 of lynching, the child of people who were brutalized 00:22:28.839 --> 00:22:32.759 by segregation. And my foreparents found a way 00:22:32.759 --> 00:22:35.700 to cope, to survive, to endure, and to resist. 00:22:36.509 --> 00:22:38.490 these narratives of fear and anger. I started 00:22:38.490 --> 00:22:40.650 my education in a colored school. They didn't 00:22:40.650 --> 00:22:42.369 let me go to the public schools. When I got to 00:22:42.369 --> 00:22:45.250 the public schools after integration, the presumption 00:22:45.250 --> 00:22:48.049 was I wasn't equipped, wasn't capable, wasn't 00:22:48.049 --> 00:22:50.950 worthy to be there. And you had to navigate a 00:22:50.950 --> 00:22:53.470 lot of those presumptions. I think we're better 00:22:53.470 --> 00:22:56.789 positioned than we've ever been before to overcome 00:22:56.789 --> 00:22:59.329 these narratives of fear and anger. But it's 00:22:59.329 --> 00:23:01.809 going to require some work. It's going to require 00:23:01.809 --> 00:23:04.859 some faith. It's going to require... some activism. 00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:09.019 It's going to require some believing in our capacity 00:23:09.019 --> 00:23:13.779 to do better than what we're seeing in this particular 00:23:13.779 --> 00:23:18.940 moment. For me, and I wrote in Just Mercy about 00:23:18.940 --> 00:23:22.180 how going to death row when I was a law student 00:23:22.180 --> 00:23:26.339 completely changed me. Meeting a condemned man 00:23:26.339 --> 00:23:30.039 on death row, sitting down with him and forgetting 00:23:30.039 --> 00:23:32.240 that I was a law student and forgetting that 00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:35.000 he was a condemned prisoner, And just talking 00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:39.420 to him for two or three hours and then getting 00:23:39.420 --> 00:23:42.299 lost in his humanity and the fellowship we were 00:23:42.299 --> 00:23:45.819 creating in that horrid space. And then having 00:23:45.819 --> 00:23:48.579 that visit interrupted by guards who were angry 00:23:48.579 --> 00:23:51.640 that we were laughing and talking and bonding 00:23:51.640 --> 00:23:54.579 and came into the room and grabbed him and put 00:23:54.579 --> 00:23:57.039 the handcuffs back on his wrist and wrapped the 00:23:57.039 --> 00:23:59.200 chain around his waist and put the metal shackles 00:23:59.200 --> 00:24:01.779 on his ankles so violently and started shoving 00:24:01.779 --> 00:24:04.410 him toward the door. And to see him treated so 00:24:04.410 --> 00:24:07.470 badly and not be able to stop that mistreatment 00:24:07.470 --> 00:24:10.349 really alarmed me. But then he got in front of 00:24:10.349 --> 00:24:13.309 the door before he left that room, and he turned 00:24:13.309 --> 00:24:15.369 to me and he said, Brian, don't worry about this. 00:24:15.450 --> 00:24:18.650 You just come back. And then he did that thing 00:24:18.650 --> 00:24:22.089 I'll never forget where he closed his eyes, threw 00:24:22.089 --> 00:24:25.329 his head back, and began to sing. And he started 00:24:25.329 --> 00:24:28.009 singing the hymn, I'm Pressing on the Upward 00:24:28.009 --> 00:24:30.660 Way. New heights I'm gaining every day, still 00:24:30.660 --> 00:24:32.819 praying as I'm onward bound. And then he said, 00:24:32.940 --> 00:24:35.400 Lord, plant my feet on higher ground. And it 00:24:35.400 --> 00:24:38.339 stunned everyone. The guards stopped. And then 00:24:38.339 --> 00:24:40.119 they recovered and started pushing him down the 00:24:40.119 --> 00:24:41.960 hallway. And you could hear the chains clanging, 00:24:41.960 --> 00:24:45.460 but you could hear this man singing about higher 00:24:45.460 --> 00:24:48.859 ground. Hearing his song was like a calling from 00:24:48.859 --> 00:24:51.960 God. I knew then that I wanted to help condemned 00:24:51.960 --> 00:24:56.339 people get to higher ground. And being proximate 00:24:56.339 --> 00:24:58.759 to this condemned man and hearing his song changed 00:24:58.759 --> 00:25:00.619 everything for me. I went back to Harvard Law 00:25:00.619 --> 00:25:02.240 School. You couldn't get me out of the law school 00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:05.660 library. I needed to know everything about habeas 00:25:05.660 --> 00:25:08.299 corpus and res judicata and comedy and federalism 00:25:08.299 --> 00:25:10.960 and all of the jurisprudence necessary to help 00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:15.019 condemned people. But if I'm honest, if I've 00:25:15.019 --> 00:25:16.920 helped anybody during my career, it's because 00:25:16.920 --> 00:25:20.140 I got close to a condemned man and heard his 00:25:20.140 --> 00:25:23.720 song. And I still believe, Father, that in jails 00:25:23.720 --> 00:25:26.079 and prisons, people are singing. In places where 00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:28.900 people are marginalized and excluded, in places 00:25:28.900 --> 00:25:31.299 where people have been oppressed and ignored 00:25:31.299 --> 00:25:34.400 and mistreated, there are songs still being sung. 00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:37.440 And if we get close enough to hear those melodies, 00:25:37.700 --> 00:25:40.359 to hear the humanity, to hear God's grace manifest 00:25:40.359 --> 00:25:44.759 in the lives of the poor and those who are disfavored, 00:25:44.920 --> 00:25:48.319 we find power, we find strength, we find knowledge, 00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:51.500 we find wisdom. we find the capacity to make 00:25:51.500 --> 00:25:53.359 a difference. And that is what has sustained 00:25:53.359 --> 00:25:58.500 me in Alabama, in my work, is that relationship 00:25:58.500 --> 00:26:03.920 to God's children who are often neglected, pushed 00:26:03.920 --> 00:26:13.119 aside, condemned, incarcerated, forgotten. Well, 00:26:13.180 --> 00:26:15.279 dear friends, listeners, it's a great pleasure 00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:18.960 and a great blessing to welcome my friend, the 00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:21.940 esteemed Dr. Cornel West here with us. Like millions 00:26:21.940 --> 00:26:25.920 of others, I consider Cornel West the leading 00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:28.720 public intellectual in the United States, maybe 00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:31.539 the world. For me, he's right up there with Emerson 00:26:31.539 --> 00:26:35.180 and W .E .B. Dubois. Welcome, Brother Cornel 00:26:35.180 --> 00:26:39.420 West, to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. My dear 00:26:39.420 --> 00:26:44.259 brother, I want to begin by saluting you. I wanted 00:26:44.259 --> 00:26:46.680 to begin by asking you just to talk about it 00:26:46.680 --> 00:26:50.279 all, your take on what we're going through. Yeah, 00:26:50.319 --> 00:26:53.180 I mean, I think you laid it out there, brother. 00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:56.880 But as you know, I mean, any empire has been 00:26:56.880 --> 00:26:59.400 about 70 of them since the beginning of the species. 00:26:59.599 --> 00:27:04.660 United States, number 68. They come and go. They 00:27:04.660 --> 00:27:07.859 peak. They begin to decay and decline, usually 00:27:07.859 --> 00:27:10.900 as a result of military outreach. We've got, 00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:14.049 what, 800 military units around the world. facilitating 00:27:14.049 --> 00:27:19.819 genocide right now in Gaza. pulling back in many 00:27:19.819 --> 00:27:22.440 ways and still indirectly connected to genocide 00:27:22.440 --> 00:27:26.400 in Sudan. Usually the empires began to connect 00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:28.720 that military overreach with corruption of elites 00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:31.539 across the board, not just political parties, 00:27:31.640 --> 00:27:35.759 but of upper classes and wealthy classes who 00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:38.140 began to view life as a gold rush and therefore 00:27:38.140 --> 00:27:41.019 end up worshipping the golden calf and transform 00:27:41.019 --> 00:27:45.200 the golden rule to he who has the gold will rule 00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:47.539 and think the chickens won't come home to roost. 00:27:48.109 --> 00:27:50.150 And somehow you're not going to reap what you 00:27:50.150 --> 00:27:53.789 sow. So it then is connected to impotence, a 00:27:53.789 --> 00:27:55.970 sense of powerlessness and helplessness among 00:27:55.970 --> 00:27:58.970 the citizenry. And that's how they end up out 00:27:58.970 --> 00:28:01.650 of deep frustration and desperation, calling 00:28:01.650 --> 00:28:06.930 for a strong man, a tyrant, a fascist, an authoritarian 00:28:06.930 --> 00:28:10.710 figure, a dictator, whatever language you want 00:28:10.710 --> 00:28:13.450 to use. But the last thing has to do with a spiritual 00:28:13.450 --> 00:28:16.880 and moral vacuum. spiritual and moral emptiness, 00:28:17.099 --> 00:28:20.519 which means that the citizenry find it more and 00:28:20.519 --> 00:28:23.640 more difficult to be in contact with the best 00:28:23.640 --> 00:28:27.920 of what has gone into them. historically, communally, 00:28:28.059 --> 00:28:30.940 religiously, intellectually. That's one of the 00:28:30.940 --> 00:28:33.460 reasons why the Martin Kings and Dorothy Days 00:28:33.460 --> 00:28:35.799 and Philip and Daniel Berrigan's and so forth 00:28:35.799 --> 00:28:39.500 are not household words, because they represent 00:28:39.500 --> 00:28:42.099 the best of the history of the American empire. 00:28:42.380 --> 00:28:45.240 And it's hard for people to get in contact with 00:28:45.240 --> 00:28:49.359 their lives, their witnesses, their sacrifice, 00:28:49.660 --> 00:28:52.140 their visions, their words, their utterances. 00:28:52.339 --> 00:28:55.890 And so people end up having to choose. between 00:28:55.890 --> 00:28:59.809 a number of options that have little to do with 00:28:59.809 --> 00:29:03.490 the best of the history of their own country, 00:29:03.630 --> 00:29:05.250 the history of their own empire, the history 00:29:05.250 --> 00:29:08.569 of their own religions or whatever traditions 00:29:08.569 --> 00:29:11.869 they're a part of. That's the makings of the 00:29:11.869 --> 00:29:14.190 collapse of an empire. And that's what we are 00:29:14.190 --> 00:29:18.150 witnessing. the collapse and implosion of the 00:29:18.150 --> 00:29:21.490 American empire in real time. And of course, 00:29:21.509 --> 00:29:24.430 Trump himself is a major factor, but he's as 00:29:24.430 --> 00:29:27.990 much a sign and a symptom. He's not the cause 00:29:27.990 --> 00:29:31.069 of it. The cause is the organized greed. The 00:29:31.069 --> 00:29:34.089 cause is the weaponized hatred. The cause is 00:29:34.089 --> 00:29:36.150 the institutionalized indifference toward the 00:29:36.150 --> 00:29:39.170 least of these. You remember Rabbi Hester used 00:29:39.170 --> 00:29:42.130 to say what? Indifference to evil is more insidious 00:29:42.130 --> 00:29:46.730 than evil itself. that reinforces the unbelievable 00:29:46.730 --> 00:29:49.990 levels of the spiritual wickedness, especially 00:29:49.990 --> 00:29:53.130 in high places. And so we have to try to just 00:29:53.130 --> 00:29:56.430 tell the truth about where we are, but recognize 00:29:56.430 --> 00:29:59.829 that it's not really new. I mean, it's already 00:29:59.829 --> 00:30:03.109 at work in Melville's Moby Dick, but Ahab, right? 00:30:03.450 --> 00:30:06.170 You got the ship, it's multiracial, the queen 00:30:06.170 --> 00:30:09.519 pod, you've got... The unbelievable obsession 00:30:09.519 --> 00:30:12.200 with the whiteness of the well and white supremacy 00:30:12.200 --> 00:30:16.420 itself tied to empire, tied to predatory capitalist 00:30:16.420 --> 00:30:20.240 processes, is tied to very patriarchal and homophobic 00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:24.079 and transphobic sensibilities that lose sight 00:30:24.079 --> 00:30:28.059 of the rich sanctity and holiness and dignity 00:30:28.059 --> 00:30:30.460 of human beings made in the image of a living 00:30:30.460 --> 00:30:35.500 and loving God. Melville saw it way back in 1851. 00:30:38.599 --> 00:30:40.859 Americans ought to know about their witness, 00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:44.839 know about their courage. Very, very difficult 00:30:44.839 --> 00:30:47.299 to keep these traditions alive. But that's what 00:30:47.299 --> 00:30:49.180 you've been able to do in your life, and that's 00:30:49.180 --> 00:30:51.859 what you do in this broadcast. But in the end, 00:30:51.900 --> 00:30:54.440 we should never be surprised by evil or paralyzed 00:30:54.440 --> 00:30:57.339 by despair, though, brother. Even when we tell 00:30:57.339 --> 00:31:00.000 the truth about just how ugly the situation is, 00:31:00.039 --> 00:31:03.039 we're blues. We blues people. We blues Christians. 00:31:03.339 --> 00:31:05.880 Blues is about what? Telling the truth about 00:31:05.880 --> 00:31:08.859 catastrophe. Understanding the cross as the ultimate 00:31:08.859 --> 00:31:11.799 catastrophe. But knowing catastrophe or the cross 00:31:11.799 --> 00:31:16.220 do not have the last word. To be a follower of 00:31:16.220 --> 00:31:19.640 Jesus means to take up your cross, deny yourself 00:31:19.640 --> 00:31:23.619 and follow him, give everything inside of you 00:31:23.619 --> 00:31:26.740 that's been poured into you at your best, which 00:31:26.740 --> 00:31:29.160 is the love, the courage, the integrity, the 00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:32.180 honesty, focusing on the least of these, knowing 00:31:32.180 --> 00:31:34.740 that the world will view you as foolish, that 00:31:34.740 --> 00:31:37.599 through the lens of the dominant tendencies of 00:31:37.599 --> 00:31:40.599 the world, you'll always be viewed as foolish. 00:31:40.839 --> 00:31:44.299 Erasmus is right in praise of folly. Yes, it 00:31:44.299 --> 00:31:47.380 is foolish to follow a Palestinian Jew named 00:31:47.380 --> 00:31:50.500 Jesus that tells you to lead with love, that 00:31:50.500 --> 00:31:53.339 tells you to love your way through the darkness, 00:31:53.440 --> 00:31:56.700 the cruelty, the coldness of the world so you're 00:31:56.700 --> 00:31:58.960 in the world but not of the world, that you're 00:31:58.960 --> 00:32:02.380 not conformed but transformed by something bigger 00:32:02.380 --> 00:32:05.920 than you, a grace that is given to you, a legacy, 00:32:06.059 --> 00:32:08.519 a tradition, and memories of those who were part 00:32:08.519 --> 00:32:10.859 of the same love train you tried to stay on. 00:32:14.380 --> 00:32:17.940 We shall never forget him and the movement, and 00:32:17.940 --> 00:32:22.220 we shall never cave in, give up, or sell our 00:32:22.220 --> 00:32:26.440 souls for a mess of pottage. That's what persists 00:32:26.440 --> 00:32:30.420 in the best of those of us who still have the 00:32:30.420 --> 00:32:33.839 audacity to be followers of a Palestinian Jew 00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:45.220 named Jesus. Welcome, and introduce everyone 00:32:45.220 --> 00:32:48.519 to my friend, Reverend Emanuel Charles McCarthy, 00:32:48.980 --> 00:32:52.519 one of the world's greatest teachers of Christian 00:32:52.519 --> 00:32:57.759 nonviolence. My understanding, John, of nonviolence 00:32:57.759 --> 00:33:05.839 is that nonviolence is an adjective or an adverb. 00:33:06.220 --> 00:33:11.180 It is not a noun in the Gospels. Nonviolence 00:33:11.180 --> 00:33:16.650 is the modifier. of what saves, which is love. 00:33:18.410 --> 00:33:23.069 Love modeled on Jesus, love exemplified by Jesus, 00:33:23.309 --> 00:33:31.589 love. Now, therefore, when people ask me for 00:33:31.589 --> 00:33:34.009 a definition of nonviolence, what I mean by it, 00:33:34.049 --> 00:33:38.970 I say, what I mean always is nonviolent love. 00:33:40.430 --> 00:33:44.650 As modeled by Jesus, which means modeled by Jesus 00:33:44.650 --> 00:33:47.529 in the gospel, which means it's a nonviolent 00:33:47.529 --> 00:33:52.349 love, not just of my family, not just of my next 00:33:52.349 --> 00:33:55.970 door neighbor. It's a nonviolent love of friends 00:33:55.970 --> 00:33:58.690 and enemies, regardless of where they are, who 00:33:58.690 --> 00:34:02.950 they are. And I kind of, you know, supplement 00:34:02.950 --> 00:34:06.369 that by saying. The fact of the matter is Jesus 00:34:06.369 --> 00:34:09.369 in the Gospels extends the word neighbor, love 00:34:09.369 --> 00:34:12.670 of neighbor, that's in the Old Testament. He 00:34:12.670 --> 00:34:15.829 extends it out to all human beings who are sons 00:34:15.829 --> 00:34:20.489 and daughters of the Father. So nonviolence is, 00:34:20.690 --> 00:34:25.730 for me, is nonviolent love of friends and enemies 00:34:25.730 --> 00:34:32.070 in the model of Jesus in the Gospels. So is it 00:34:32.070 --> 00:34:38.010 Christ -like love? that is imbuing, moving, motivating 00:34:38.010 --> 00:34:42.289 the particular action that is called nonviolence, 00:34:42.369 --> 00:34:46.570 or if someone else wants to say this is nonviolent, 00:34:46.670 --> 00:34:50.590 without that, they can do that. But for me, if 00:34:50.590 --> 00:34:54.929 the action is not motivated and imbued with Christlike 00:34:54.929 --> 00:35:01.650 love, it is not going to be effective in countering 00:35:01.650 --> 00:35:06.010 evil and death. in their multiplicity of manifestations 00:35:06.010 --> 00:35:13.610 in this world. It's a great pleasure to welcome 00:35:13.610 --> 00:35:17.550 my friend, Professor Stanley Hauerwas, one of 00:35:17.550 --> 00:35:20.070 the world's greatest theologians and ethicists. 00:35:20.429 --> 00:35:25.230 In 2001, Time magazine named Stanley Hauerwas 00:35:25.230 --> 00:35:29.530 America's Best Theologian. Stanley, welcome to 00:35:29.530 --> 00:35:31.909 the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. Thanks for being 00:35:31.909 --> 00:35:35.360 here. It's so good to be with you, John. Thank 00:35:35.360 --> 00:35:43.980 you. The Mennonites helped me see that it's not 00:35:43.980 --> 00:35:49.219 like we have Jesus, and then we might think about 00:35:49.219 --> 00:35:53.719 what implications there might be about nonviolence. 00:35:55.000 --> 00:36:01.340 Jesus is nonviolence, and to be a worshiper... 00:36:01.630 --> 00:36:10.329 Christ is to be shaped by a cross that is a manifestation 00:36:10.329 --> 00:36:16.530 of God's love for the enemy in a way that makes 00:36:16.530 --> 00:36:22.710 it possible for us to live with an enemy that 00:36:22.710 --> 00:36:28.030 we must say, you can kill us, but you cannot 00:36:28.030 --> 00:36:32.889 determine. the meaning of our deaths, because 00:36:32.889 --> 00:36:38.489 the meaning of our deaths has been substantiated 00:36:38.489 --> 00:36:43.670 by Christ's cross and resurrection. These are 00:36:43.670 --> 00:36:52.510 deep issues theologically that the Church only 00:36:52.510 --> 00:36:57.809 gestures toward, unfortunately, rather than makes 00:36:57.809 --> 00:37:01.980 integral to. the kind of formation that we all 00:37:01.980 --> 00:37:13.000 must receive for the worship of God. Well, it's 00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:15.500 a great pleasure to welcome my friend John Fuglesang, 00:37:15.579 --> 00:37:18.719 one of our great broadcasters, comedians, and 00:37:18.719 --> 00:37:23.139 speakers. He has acted on CSI, hosted many TV 00:37:23.139 --> 00:37:26.780 shows and podcasts. Memorably, I first caught 00:37:26.780 --> 00:37:29.239 you, John, when you hosted that, I think it was 00:37:29.239 --> 00:37:31.639 a V8 show with Paul McCartney in the mid -90s. 00:37:32.039 --> 00:37:34.840 Yes, sir. And the famous last public appearance 00:37:34.840 --> 00:37:38.739 of our hero George Harrison as well. John has 00:37:38.739 --> 00:37:41.199 just published his first book, Congratulations, 00:37:41.980 --> 00:37:45.599 Separation of Church and Hate, A Sane Person's 00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:48.400 Guide to Taking Back the Bible from Fundamentalist, 00:37:48.519 --> 00:37:52.500 Fascist, and Flock -Fleecing Frauds from Simon 00:37:52.500 --> 00:37:55.239 & Schuster. John Fugel saying welcome to the 00:37:55.239 --> 00:37:58.199 Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. Thank you. It's such 00:37:58.199 --> 00:37:59.860 a pleasure to be here with you and with your 00:37:59.860 --> 00:38:04.050 audience. I really appreciate it. God commands 00:38:04.050 --> 00:38:06.289 the Israelites to welcome the stranger, commands 00:38:06.289 --> 00:38:08.170 the Hebrews to treat the alien as one of your 00:38:08.170 --> 00:38:10.949 own. Christ shows up in Matthew 25 and says individuals 00:38:10.949 --> 00:38:13.889 and nations will be judged by how they welcome 00:38:13.889 --> 00:38:15.929 the stranger. I'm not saying we shouldn't have 00:38:15.929 --> 00:38:18.280 any standards on who enters the country. To me, 00:38:18.300 --> 00:38:20.500 it's all about the criminalization of migrants. 00:38:20.760 --> 00:38:22.900 I don't call them illegals. I call them Christian 00:38:22.900 --> 00:38:25.519 refugees because it's true and it upsets the 00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:27.840 right people. But go ahead and make them argue 00:38:27.840 --> 00:38:30.579 with God. Don't get angry with your xenophobic 00:38:30.579 --> 00:38:33.920 uncle at Thanksgiving. Just say, well, God says 00:38:33.920 --> 00:38:36.139 this. Jesus says this. Why should I listen to 00:38:36.139 --> 00:38:38.719 you and Donald Trump and Stephen Miller and reject 00:38:38.719 --> 00:38:41.179 the words of God and Jesus? Why are God and Jesus 00:38:41.179 --> 00:38:46.739 wrong? Let them argue with the scripture. So 00:38:46.739 --> 00:38:49.840 I wrote the book for all the nice Christians 00:38:49.840 --> 00:38:51.860 out there who are tired of seeing the religion 00:38:51.860 --> 00:38:54.219 hijacked. Thank you. And because also, if I may, 00:38:54.280 --> 00:38:56.619 because the media is not going to take it back. 00:38:56.679 --> 00:38:58.599 The media is never going to ask tough questions. 00:38:58.639 --> 00:39:01.239 They'll never ask any of these homophobes, where 00:39:01.239 --> 00:39:03.260 does Jesus drive the gay wedding cakes out of 00:39:03.260 --> 00:39:08.559 the temple? And the Democratic Party is going 00:39:08.559 --> 00:39:10.679 to be too terrified to ever stand up and say 00:39:10.679 --> 00:39:13.889 the truth, which is. There's no possible way 00:39:13.889 --> 00:39:16.230 you can follow both Donald Trump and Jesus unless 00:39:16.230 --> 00:39:17.869 you've neither read either one of their books. 00:39:18.010 --> 00:39:21.070 So it's up to us. And like all social movements 00:39:21.070 --> 00:39:23.210 of justice, it's going to come from people working 00:39:23.210 --> 00:39:27.349 together, one heart and one mind at a time. These 00:39:27.349 --> 00:39:31.329 people are going to try to, you know, wage war, 00:39:31.530 --> 00:39:34.349 create dominance for themselves on Earth, and 00:39:34.349 --> 00:39:36.630 they're using Jesus as their camouflage. So I 00:39:36.630 --> 00:39:39.940 mainly wrote this book to be. a guide to camouflage 00:39:39.940 --> 00:39:43.139 removal because you don't get to inflict violence 00:39:43.139 --> 00:39:47.280 to solve problems and it's another reason why 00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:48.900 it was very strange to write this book about 00:39:48.900 --> 00:39:51.480 how to take down christian nationalism and racism 00:39:51.480 --> 00:39:55.179 with non -violence and humor in scripture the 00:39:55.179 --> 00:39:58.320 same week we see somebody use a bullet to take 00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:00.280 down one of the most famous christian nationalists 00:40:00.280 --> 00:40:03.519 and bigots in our society and it just broke my 00:40:03.519 --> 00:40:06.360 heart john because um i've dealt with charlie 00:40:06.360 --> 00:40:09.860 kirk he came at me i'll never claim that uh he 00:40:09.860 --> 00:40:12.780 was fighting for the gospel um his many many 00:40:12.780 --> 00:40:17.199 racist statements and cruel statements are out 00:40:17.199 --> 00:40:20.159 there uh i don't need to recount them all your 00:40:20.159 --> 00:40:22.239 listeners can google the very real things this 00:40:22.239 --> 00:40:24.199 man said and the delight he took and the suffering 00:40:24.199 --> 00:40:28.500 and violence towards others but on the flip side 00:40:28.500 --> 00:40:30.760 we had so many friends on the left uh who were 00:40:30.760 --> 00:40:33.260 just celebrating this this disgusting violence 00:40:33.260 --> 00:40:37.199 because nazis deserve it And how do I embrace 00:40:37.199 --> 00:40:41.980 that? I said so many horrible, vulgar things 00:40:41.980 --> 00:40:44.440 when I was younger, John. I made so many mistakes. 00:40:44.579 --> 00:40:46.639 I said so many things that I thought was righteous 00:40:46.639 --> 00:40:49.480 and powerful and strong that were actually cruel 00:40:49.480 --> 00:40:52.519 and stupid. And I got lucky that I got to grow 00:40:52.519 --> 00:40:54.420 old and be lame. Charlie Kirk is never going 00:40:54.420 --> 00:40:56.239 to get to grow old. He's never going to get to 00:40:56.239 --> 00:40:59.360 lose debates. have his heart opened. He's never 00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:01.059 going to get to have a black friend or a gay 00:41:01.059 --> 00:41:03.340 friend or a transgender friend or an immigrant 00:41:03.340 --> 00:41:05.679 friend. He's not going to get to see Trumpism 00:41:05.679 --> 00:41:08.219 fail and be humbled by losing a lot of debates 00:41:08.219 --> 00:41:10.340 and losing his funding. He's going to be locked 00:41:10.340 --> 00:41:17.400 in that immature place. Well, it's a pleasure 00:41:17.400 --> 00:41:19.940 to welcome Paul Chappelle today to our podcast. 00:41:20.480 --> 00:41:23.760 Paul is an international peace educator and founder 00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:27.260 of Peace Literacy. He graduated from West Point. 00:41:27.639 --> 00:41:31.380 was deployed to Iraq, left active duty as a captain, 00:41:31.579 --> 00:41:35.739 then realizing that, as he says, humanity is 00:41:35.739 --> 00:41:38.260 facing new challenges that require us to become 00:41:38.260 --> 00:41:41.139 as well -trained in waging peace as soldiers 00:41:41.139 --> 00:41:44.679 are in waging war, he founded Peace Literacy 00:41:44.679 --> 00:41:47.079 to help students and adults from all backgrounds 00:41:47.079 --> 00:41:50.760 work toward their full potential as peacemakers 00:41:50.760 --> 00:41:53.739 for a more peaceful world. So peace literacy 00:41:53.739 --> 00:41:56.900 teaches that peace is not merely a goal, but 00:41:56.900 --> 00:42:00.400 a practical skill set. Paul, welcome to the Nonviolent 00:42:00.400 --> 00:42:03.559 Jesus podcast. Thank you, John, for having me. 00:42:03.579 --> 00:42:06.820 Thank you so much. Something we talk about is 00:42:06.820 --> 00:42:10.000 how humans have this natural aversion. We have 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:12.099 a natural aversion to hurting and killing other 00:42:12.099 --> 00:42:15.239 humans. So we have a natural aversion to hurting 00:42:15.239 --> 00:42:18.079 and killing other humans. And all the military 00:42:18.079 --> 00:42:21.199 history shows that this is how we are. Every 00:42:21.199 --> 00:42:24.820 war. every genocide, every form of slavery, they 00:42:24.820 --> 00:42:27.179 all require dehumanization. There's never been 00:42:27.179 --> 00:42:29.219 a war, never been a form of slavery, never been 00:42:29.219 --> 00:42:33.000 a genocide that hasn't used dehumanization, as 00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:35.780 you know. And the purpose of dehumanization is 00:42:35.780 --> 00:42:38.260 to protect the mind from feeling guilt and remorse. 00:42:38.840 --> 00:42:41.000 If we hurt people and we think that they're like 00:42:41.000 --> 00:42:43.619 us, we'll feel guilty, we'll feel remorseful. 00:42:43.679 --> 00:42:45.920 And so dehumanization's purpose is to protect 00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:50.300 the mind from feeling that. If we don't teach 00:42:50.300 --> 00:42:53.139 people peace literacy if we don't teach people 00:42:53.139 --> 00:42:57.139 non -violence and we're teaching people the opposite 00:42:57.139 --> 00:42:59.880 i mean that's not going to be a good outcome 00:42:59.880 --> 00:43:03.099 right and i think a lot of people got complacent 00:43:03.099 --> 00:43:06.239 they just thought that peace is inevitable we 00:43:06.239 --> 00:43:08.639 talk a lot about how war is not inevitable we 00:43:08.639 --> 00:43:10.599 talk about how humans are not naturally violent 00:43:10.599 --> 00:43:13.320 yet humans can become incredibly violent through 00:43:13.320 --> 00:43:17.559 trauma and other forms of not trauma manipulation 00:43:17.559 --> 00:43:21.260 things like that can propel people into extremely 00:43:21.260 --> 00:43:27.719 violent behavior and we aren't teaching people 00:43:27.719 --> 00:43:30.019 any of these tools or skills we're teaching people 00:43:30.019 --> 00:43:33.059 the opposite and we're seeing the the consequences 00:43:33.059 --> 00:43:36.539 of that so Just as the idea that war is inevitable 00:43:36.539 --> 00:43:38.699 is very dangerous, the idea that peace is inevitable 00:43:38.699 --> 00:43:41.260 is also very dangerous. People think, well, we're 00:43:41.260 --> 00:43:43.219 just on this trajectory toward a more peaceful 00:43:43.219 --> 00:43:45.440 and just world. It's all written in stone. We 00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:48.880 don't have to do anything. And we're just going 00:43:48.880 --> 00:43:51.119 to have a more peaceful world. It's just going 00:43:51.119 --> 00:43:54.400 to be an inevitable result of just the forces 00:43:54.400 --> 00:43:57.000 of history when we really have to do something 00:43:57.000 --> 00:44:01.909 to push humanity in that direction. And so what's 00:44:01.909 --> 00:44:04.010 happening now are things that I thought were 00:44:04.010 --> 00:44:09.969 going to happen for a number of years. I mean, 00:44:10.010 --> 00:44:12.809 in March of 2016, I was telling people I thought 00:44:12.809 --> 00:44:15.050 Donald Trump would win at least two terms. And 00:44:15.050 --> 00:44:16.650 when he lost, I thought he was going to win in 00:44:16.650 --> 00:44:19.030 2020. But when he lost in 2020, I was saying 00:44:19.030 --> 00:44:21.110 I never said there were going to be consecutive 00:44:21.110 --> 00:44:23.670 terms. I think he's going to win in 2024. And 00:44:23.670 --> 00:44:28.119 I think that there are. Traumas and pains and 00:44:28.119 --> 00:44:31.039 there are hungers in our society that aren't 00:44:31.039 --> 00:44:34.940 being addressed and that are being ignored and 00:44:34.940 --> 00:44:39.239 neglected. And there's an appetite for things 00:44:39.239 --> 00:44:43.519 that we aren't addressing in a way that's going 00:44:43.519 --> 00:44:49.159 to help deal with those root causes. So if we 00:44:49.159 --> 00:44:51.280 don't teach peace and don't teach peace literacy 00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:54.159 and don't teach nonviolence, this is necessary 00:44:54.159 --> 00:44:56.820 for human survival. And if what we're seeing 00:44:56.820 --> 00:44:59.079 in the world today doesn't show that, I'm not 00:44:59.079 --> 00:45:03.380 sure what does. But I really think there are 00:45:03.380 --> 00:45:06.480 explainable causes for why we're doing what we're 00:45:06.480 --> 00:45:10.280 doing, and there is a path out of it. And so 00:45:10.280 --> 00:45:12.719 if we can predict behavior and we understand 00:45:12.719 --> 00:45:14.480 why that behavior is happening, we have a path 00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:17.380 out of it, that leaves me hopeful. And it doesn't 00:45:17.380 --> 00:45:19.219 matter how bad things seem to get. There is a 00:45:19.219 --> 00:45:22.940 path. And I think in going back to what you asked 00:45:22.940 --> 00:45:26.690 just about nonviolence is. The deeper knowing, 00:45:26.829 --> 00:45:28.690 the deeper depths of understanding and knowing, 00:45:28.889 --> 00:45:33.849 where you not just see, but you feel, you know 00:45:33.849 --> 00:45:36.550 in this deeper way the dignity of human life 00:45:36.550 --> 00:45:39.809 and animal life. It uplifts you. It uplifts everyone 00:45:39.809 --> 00:45:43.070 around you. The path of trauma is just a dead 00:45:43.070 --> 00:45:45.929 -end road to misery. It doesn't uplift anyone. 00:45:46.070 --> 00:45:47.889 It hurts people around you. This is the path 00:45:47.889 --> 00:45:51.650 out of the pain and the badness that people feel. 00:45:53.409 --> 00:45:55.769 succumbing to rage and mistrust and alienation 00:45:55.769 --> 00:45:58.030 it's not good for you it's not good for anyone 00:45:58.030 --> 00:45:59.789 around you it's not good for the country it's 00:45:59.789 --> 00:46:02.909 not good for the world so the fact that non -violence 00:46:02.909 --> 00:46:07.469 helps people and uplifts people this is the path 00:46:07.469 --> 00:46:10.150 that we need to take and people can benefit from 00:46:10.150 --> 00:46:19.840 it as they move through that process It's a great 00:46:19.840 --> 00:46:23.360 pleasure to welcome today my friend Kathy Kelly, 00:46:23.599 --> 00:46:27.420 longtime peace activist, author, and Nobel Peace 00:46:27.420 --> 00:46:31.380 Prize nominee. As we record this, Kathy is participating 00:46:31.380 --> 00:46:35.559 in and helping to coordinate a 40 -day fast for 00:46:35.559 --> 00:46:38.519 an end to the U .S.-backed Israeli genocide in 00:46:38.519 --> 00:46:42.590 Gaza. Welcome, my friend, Kathy Kelly. Well, 00:46:42.670 --> 00:46:45.289 thank you, John. I'm so glad that your podcasts 00:46:45.289 --> 00:46:48.909 are reaching many people and that your commitment 00:46:48.909 --> 00:46:52.110 to being a practitioner of nonviolence following 00:46:52.110 --> 00:46:55.010 the nonviolent Jesus still reaches me. Thank 00:46:55.010 --> 00:46:59.989 you. Well, I think about how Pope Francis truly 00:46:59.989 --> 00:47:04.269 was a symbol of unity for Christians and others 00:47:04.269 --> 00:47:06.329 all throughout the world. And I see Pope Leo. 00:47:07.039 --> 00:47:10.019 entering in that direction as well. But for instance, 00:47:10.079 --> 00:47:14.199 here in New York, we've gone to the, every Sunday, 00:47:14.280 --> 00:47:17.900 gone to St. Patrick's Cathedral, and you don't 00:47:17.900 --> 00:47:21.480 hear the hierarchs in New York speaking out. 00:47:21.559 --> 00:47:24.619 So it's really dependent on people in the pews 00:47:24.619 --> 00:47:28.280 to say, look, we do follow the nonviolent Jesus, 00:47:28.380 --> 00:47:32.280 and we will speak out, even if the people... 00:47:32.510 --> 00:47:35.969 appointed to lead us are themselves perhaps not 00:47:35.969 --> 00:47:39.590 so able to do that for whatever reasons of compromised 00:47:39.590 --> 00:47:43.849 conscience they might have. So I think the line 00:47:43.849 --> 00:47:46.929 that it's important to remember is that the means 00:47:46.929 --> 00:47:53.710 you use determines the end you get. And if you 00:47:53.710 --> 00:47:59.969 use means of silence or indifference or changing 00:47:59.969 --> 00:48:03.619 the subject. then that's what you'll get in the 00:48:03.619 --> 00:48:06.659 end, you know, indifference and silence. But 00:48:06.659 --> 00:48:10.880 if we use means that are kindly, compassionate, 00:48:11.179 --> 00:48:15.000 but very determined, then I think we can reach 00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:18.860 an end similar to what happened with South Africa. 00:48:18.980 --> 00:48:21.840 You know, eventually the nations of the world 00:48:21.840 --> 00:48:25.159 were able to say to the South African apartheid 00:48:25.159 --> 00:48:28.639 government, you can no longer participate in 00:48:28.639 --> 00:48:31.789 the family of nations. And then Nelson Mandela 00:48:31.789 --> 00:48:35.570 was released from prison. So we're hoping that 00:48:35.570 --> 00:48:41.070 that sort of playbook would be reenacted, that 00:48:41.070 --> 00:48:44.650 the countries of the world will, out of frustration 00:48:44.650 --> 00:48:48.130 but also out of conscience, say to the United 00:48:48.130 --> 00:48:51.869 States and Israel, if Israel keeps flouting international 00:48:51.869 --> 00:48:55.210 law, the countries of the world can't afford. 00:48:55.929 --> 00:48:59.269 to see the edifice of international law chipped 00:48:59.269 --> 00:49:02.429 away at because a few countries refused to abide 00:49:02.429 --> 00:49:06.750 by it. When Jesus was in the temple and he went 00:49:06.750 --> 00:49:10.150 to the money changers who were supporting oppression 00:49:10.150 --> 00:49:14.829 of ordinary Palestinians, and particularly poor 00:49:14.829 --> 00:49:18.030 Palestinians, he turned over that table. And 00:49:18.030 --> 00:49:22.070 I think that we could turn over the tables if 00:49:22.070 --> 00:49:25.929 we became more linked together. And that's not 00:49:25.929 --> 00:49:29.090 so easy always, but we can find the kindred spirits 00:49:29.090 --> 00:49:33.250 and say, all right, let's together say we're 00:49:33.250 --> 00:49:36.409 not going to allow that table to be upright and 00:49:36.409 --> 00:49:39.710 find nonviolent ways to turn it over. And that 00:49:39.710 --> 00:49:44.349 means that we find who we can link up with and 00:49:44.349 --> 00:49:48.110 keep on looking for those kindred spirits and 00:49:48.110 --> 00:49:52.699 build those relationships, believing that. Ours 00:49:52.699 --> 00:49:55.699 is to plant the seeds, and it may be for another 00:49:55.699 --> 00:50:06.219 generation to reap the harvest. A Roman Catholic 00:50:06.219 --> 00:50:09.199 sister of social service, Sister Simone is a 00:50:09.199 --> 00:50:12.480 religious leader, attorney, author, and recipient 00:50:12.480 --> 00:50:16.699 of the 2022 Presidential Medal of Freedom. Sister 00:50:16.699 --> 00:50:19.300 Simone Campbell, welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus 00:50:19.300 --> 00:50:24.219 Podcast. How great to be with you. We need everyone. 00:50:24.340 --> 00:50:27.599 We need everyone involved. But the question is, 00:50:27.679 --> 00:50:31.980 what is your piece to do? And that's where prayer, 00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:34.800 where meditation becomes so important. Listen 00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:38.079 to the wee small voice inside of what is your 00:50:38.079 --> 00:50:41.179 piece to do. Everyone has a piece that needs 00:50:41.179 --> 00:50:44.659 doing in this time. What's yours? Listen for 00:50:44.659 --> 00:50:50.619 it and then act on it. It starts with... a contemplative 00:50:50.619 --> 00:50:52.699 practice, quite frankly. I mean, this is how 00:50:52.699 --> 00:50:55.460 it works for me. A contemplative practice, which 00:50:55.460 --> 00:50:58.460 is about listening, deep listening to the needs 00:50:58.460 --> 00:51:02.280 of the time and just being present and then acting 00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:08.320 on what I hear. And what it has led me to is 00:51:08.320 --> 00:51:13.300 what I call holy curiosity. Holy curiosity is 00:51:13.300 --> 00:51:19.269 wanting to understand the other. It can be hopeless 00:51:19.269 --> 00:51:23.090 if we don't respond. But for me, it really is 00:51:23.090 --> 00:51:26.909 critically connected to touching the pain of 00:51:26.909 --> 00:51:36.369 the world as real. Congressman Jamie Raskin, 00:51:36.369 --> 00:51:40.210 welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. Well, 00:51:40.349 --> 00:51:43.190 John, I feel like I finally made it by getting 00:51:43.190 --> 00:51:47.110 on your podcast. Thank you for having me, man. 00:51:48.679 --> 00:51:52.659 We're in the fight of our lives, and we have 00:51:52.659 --> 00:51:56.079 been since the beginning of this nightmare. Democracy 00:51:56.079 --> 00:51:59.380 is the precondition for freedom. And then democracy 00:51:59.380 --> 00:52:03.760 itself is not just a static collection of rules 00:52:03.760 --> 00:52:06.619 and procedures and rights. Democracy is a project, 00:52:06.679 --> 00:52:12.179 and it's an unfinished. draft always. Democracy 00:52:12.179 --> 00:52:15.199 is always moving forward. Tocqueville said in 00:52:15.199 --> 00:52:17.699 Democracy in America that democracy and voting 00:52:17.699 --> 00:52:20.099 rights in our country are either shrinking and 00:52:20.099 --> 00:52:22.940 shriveling away or they're growing and expanding. 00:52:23.059 --> 00:52:25.840 And we've clearly been in this terrible contractionary 00:52:25.840 --> 00:52:28.969 mode with the Supreme Court. dismantling the 00:52:28.969 --> 00:52:31.730 Voting Rights Act and so many voter suppression 00:52:31.730 --> 00:52:34.670 and disenfranchisement mechanisms being adopted 00:52:34.670 --> 00:52:37.269 by the GOP all over the country. We've got to 00:52:37.269 --> 00:52:42.110 get back on the growth track for democracy. As 00:52:42.110 --> 00:52:48.329 Dr. King said, you know, in his speech in Memphis 00:52:48.329 --> 00:52:51.050 before his death, he said, all we say to America 00:52:51.050 --> 00:52:56.000 is be true to what you said on paper. And so 00:52:56.000 --> 00:53:00.320 we do have those organizing ideals and values 00:53:00.320 --> 00:53:04.860 that we try to validate through social and political 00:53:04.860 --> 00:53:07.860 struggle. And that's why I say democracy is not 00:53:07.860 --> 00:53:11.480 just a system of rules and rights and values, 00:53:11.579 --> 00:53:14.719 which it is, but it is also an unfinished draft. 00:53:14.900 --> 00:53:18.480 It is a process in motion. It's a project. And 00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:22.530 we're all invested in it. As things continue 00:53:22.530 --> 00:53:25.289 to get worse and collapsing, that nonviolence 00:53:25.289 --> 00:53:27.650 is needed now more than ever. I mean, even with 00:53:27.650 --> 00:53:30.610 the threats of nuclear weapons and catastrophic 00:53:30.610 --> 00:53:33.630 climate change. I wondered if you might say a 00:53:33.630 --> 00:53:37.590 word or two about the role of people who are 00:53:37.590 --> 00:53:40.369 teaching and promoting and strategizing and organizing 00:53:40.369 --> 00:53:43.010 along Kingian nonviolence and Christian nonviolence 00:53:43.010 --> 00:53:44.769 and how important that is everywhere in this 00:53:44.769 --> 00:53:48.590 country as it's collapsing. Well, I think that's 00:53:48.590 --> 00:53:50.670 the whole thing. And that's why I love your work 00:53:50.670 --> 00:53:52.650 so much. I mean, I think this is the essence 00:53:52.650 --> 00:53:59.570 of it. I mean, you know, democracy and the rule 00:53:59.570 --> 00:54:02.550 of law, which supports democracy, which supports 00:54:02.550 --> 00:54:07.550 in turn freedom. Democracy is the system which 00:54:07.550 --> 00:54:13.710 relies on nonviolent verbal expression and conflict 00:54:13.710 --> 00:54:18.880 resolution as opposed to. violent assault. And 00:54:18.880 --> 00:54:21.960 at least so I would argue and so you would argue. 00:54:22.139 --> 00:54:28.139 And I think everybody who wants our best religious 00:54:28.139 --> 00:54:31.280 traditions to be embodied in political democracy. 00:54:33.559 --> 00:54:37.059 Every day when I was growing up, my father used 00:54:37.059 --> 00:54:39.599 to say, when everything looks hopeless, you're 00:54:39.599 --> 00:54:43.539 the hope. And so everybody go out there and be 00:54:43.539 --> 00:54:53.110 the hope for other people. who need you. Today 00:54:53.110 --> 00:54:55.809 I'm speaking with my friend, the legendary singer 00:54:55.809 --> 00:54:58.949 and activist Joan Baez. She's been against all 00:54:58.949 --> 00:55:01.750 wars and injustices because she has a lifetime 00:55:01.750 --> 00:55:04.849 commitment to nonviolence. So dear Joan Baez, 00:55:04.909 --> 00:55:08.889 welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. I hope 00:55:08.889 --> 00:55:15.880 I live up to that introduction. Great. When I 00:55:15.880 --> 00:55:19.300 was 16, we started meeting with Iris Sandpearl 00:55:19.300 --> 00:55:23.320 on first day, on Sunday, like Sunday school. 00:55:23.760 --> 00:55:28.760 And the thoughts I had had, they began to form. 00:55:28.920 --> 00:55:33.239 You know, he had us reading Gandhi and reading 00:55:33.239 --> 00:55:38.400 Lao Tzu and eventually Huxley. And so it was 00:55:38.400 --> 00:55:41.809 opening. My mind, to all of it, always in the 00:55:41.809 --> 00:55:44.750 context of the Quakers and nonviolence. So I 00:55:44.750 --> 00:55:48.590 never stepped out of that. I have another quote 00:55:48.590 --> 00:55:52.329 for you. Good. It's T .S. Eliot. Yeah. For us, 00:55:52.429 --> 00:55:54.650 there's only the trying and the rest is not our 00:55:54.650 --> 00:55:58.769 business. I felt completely at home with King. 00:55:59.030 --> 00:56:02.030 And I met him when there was a gathering of high 00:56:02.030 --> 00:56:05.050 school students. And it was an annual affair. 00:56:05.250 --> 00:56:07.929 And that's my first time there. And they always 00:56:07.929 --> 00:56:11.690 had a speaker. And this year it was King. And 00:56:11.690 --> 00:56:15.010 I started to cry at the beginning of the speech. 00:56:15.030 --> 00:56:18.510 I cried all the way through. And because this 00:56:18.510 --> 00:56:21.190 was a man who was doing what I've been reading 00:56:21.190 --> 00:56:24.010 about. He was doing what I've been thinking about 00:56:24.010 --> 00:56:30.929 and reading about. I have a short fuse and I 00:56:30.929 --> 00:56:35.889 don't hurt anybody, but I get pissed off instantly. 00:56:36.909 --> 00:56:40.710 an attempt to keep my mouth shut, and I'm not 00:56:40.710 --> 00:56:44.590 very good at a peaceful response. As I say, I 00:56:44.590 --> 00:56:46.989 keep it to myself. Well, that's peaceful then. 00:56:47.130 --> 00:56:49.769 You're not responding. You're going to try to 00:56:49.769 --> 00:56:51.650 get me out of this. I know you're going to try 00:56:51.650 --> 00:56:54.449 and get me out of whatever feet I have in my 00:56:54.449 --> 00:57:00.989 mouth, but I'm not cut out. It's an effort for 00:57:00.989 --> 00:57:04.889 me. Part of me is absolutely all the things that 00:57:04.889 --> 00:57:07.929 you say, because I came to it early. And because 00:57:07.929 --> 00:57:11.750 even as a kid, I didn't like the quiet time with 00:57:11.750 --> 00:57:14.730 the Quakers. That meditation has stayed with 00:57:14.730 --> 00:57:19.829 me all through my life and is a very, very important 00:57:19.829 --> 00:57:23.269 part of my life. I'd love you to read the new 00:57:23.269 --> 00:57:25.429 poem. This is something you've written recently, 00:57:25.550 --> 00:57:28.610 right? Yeah, this is recently. This is called 00:57:28.610 --> 00:57:32.090 This Is Not Optimism. Says, I just wasted a day 00:57:32.090 --> 00:57:34.670 and a half writing a long -winded response to 00:57:34.670 --> 00:57:38.190 the question, are you an optimist? Really? In 00:57:38.190 --> 00:57:41.309 this shitstorm? Are you kidding me? The simple 00:57:41.309 --> 00:57:45.349 answer is no, I've never been an optimist. Does 00:57:45.349 --> 00:57:47.750 that mean I ever gave up the fight against tyranny? 00:57:47.989 --> 00:57:52.250 No, I never did. Most likely never will. I used 00:57:52.250 --> 00:57:54.650 to be a pessimist until someone suggested it 00:57:54.650 --> 00:57:58.170 was a waste of time. So I'm trying to quit. Being 00:57:58.170 --> 00:58:01.090 an optimist may be a waste of time too, but at 00:58:01.090 --> 00:58:04.409 least it's less depressing. Be an activist instead. 00:58:04.869 --> 00:58:07.710 Carry your light out into this shitstorm. Keep 00:58:07.710 --> 00:58:10.409 your eyes on the prize and shout, glory hallelujah, 00:58:10.590 --> 00:58:13.710 goodness will prevail. This is not optimism. 00:58:13.909 --> 00:58:22.309 This is a dance. Ain't gonna let nobody turn 00:58:22.309 --> 00:58:28.409 me around, turn me around. Turn me around. Ain't 00:58:28.409 --> 00:58:34.210 gonna let nobody turn me around. Keep on walking. 00:58:34.449 --> 00:58:39.210 Keep on talking. Marching up to freedom land. 00:58:40.110 --> 00:58:44.369 Ain't gonna let the administration turn me around. 00:58:44.670 --> 00:58:49.170 Turn me around. Turn me around. Ain't gonna let 00:58:49.170 --> 00:58:54.190 the administration turn me around. Keep on walking. 00:58:54.909 --> 00:59:00.289 Keep on talking, keep on singing, keep on swinging, 00:59:00.590 --> 00:59:08.550 marching up to freedom land. Thank you, dear 00:59:08.550 --> 00:59:11.010 friends, for listening to this special year -end 00:59:11.010 --> 00:59:14.110 episode of the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. You 00:59:14.110 --> 00:59:16.690 can hear all the year's podcasts and find other 00:59:16.690 --> 00:59:20.570 upcoming podcasts and Zoom programs at BeatitudeCenter 00:59:20.570 --> 00:59:24.050 .org. And please consider offering a donation 00:59:24.050 --> 00:59:27.409 to support this free work. Don't miss our many 00:59:27.409 --> 00:59:30.949 other upcoming great podcasts, including my conversation 00:59:30.949 --> 00:59:33.610 with Reverend Andrew Young for the Martin Luther 00:59:33.610 --> 00:59:36.869 King Jr. holiday. May the God of peace bless 00:59:36.869 --> 00:59:39.670 you all. Keep on following the nonviolent Jesus 00:59:39.670 --> 00:59:42.550 as we go forward into the new year, and Merry 00:59:42.550 --> 00:59:42.989 Christmas.