WEBVTT 00:00:14.029 --> 00:00:16.989 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:16.989 --> 00:00:19.609 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:19.609 --> 00:00:22.969 with my friend Mike Martin, a blacksmith and 00:00:22.969 --> 00:00:26.030 founder of Raw Tools, one of the most creative... 00:00:27.439 --> 00:00:30.079 Christian peacemaking projects in the country, 00:00:30.160 --> 00:00:33.960 which I want everyone to know about. This program 00:00:33.960 --> 00:00:37.740 is a project of BeatitudeCenter .org, where you 00:00:37.740 --> 00:00:40.179 can find many other podcasts and regular Zoom 00:00:40.179 --> 00:00:43.960 programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and practicing 00:00:43.960 --> 00:00:47.020 nonviolence and working for a more just, more 00:00:47.020 --> 00:00:50.259 nonviolent world. So what I like to do always 00:00:50.259 --> 00:00:53.600 is begin with a little prayer. So I invite everyone. 00:00:54.240 --> 00:00:56.179 wherever you are, just to take a deep breath 00:00:56.179 --> 00:01:01.740 and to relax and notice how you're feeling. And 00:01:01.740 --> 00:01:04.799 together, let's recenter ourselves. And I invite 00:01:04.799 --> 00:01:08.239 you to enter into the presence of the God of 00:01:08.239 --> 00:01:11.939 peace who loves you infinitely and personally 00:01:11.939 --> 00:01:15.319 and everyone everywhere too. And let's welcome 00:01:15.319 --> 00:01:18.579 the risen nonviolent Jesus here with us right 00:01:18.579 --> 00:01:21.819 now. Just take a moment to ask for whatever grace 00:01:21.819 --> 00:01:24.219 you need to follow the non -violent Jesus more 00:01:24.219 --> 00:01:33.659 faithfully and to do God's will. Beloved God 00:01:33.659 --> 00:01:36.200 of peace, thank you for all the blessings of 00:01:36.200 --> 00:01:39.099 life, love, and peace that you give us. Be with 00:01:39.099 --> 00:01:42.590 us now as we reflect together. on your call to 00:01:42.590 --> 00:01:45.670 follow the nonviolent Jesus and to work for a 00:01:45.670 --> 00:01:50.530 more nonviolent, more just world. Bless us. Inspire 00:01:50.530 --> 00:01:54.650 us. Heal us, disarm us, strengthen us, and send 00:01:54.650 --> 00:01:57.950 us out to do your will, to do our part to help 00:01:57.950 --> 00:02:01.450 end poverty, racism, corporate greed, systemic 00:02:01.450 --> 00:02:05.650 justice, gun violence, fascism, permanent warfare, 00:02:05.989 --> 00:02:08.810 nuclear weapons, environmental destruction, and 00:02:08.810 --> 00:02:13.349 the whole darn systems of violence, that we might 00:02:13.349 --> 00:02:17.270 become your holy beatitude people. your holy 00:02:17.270 --> 00:02:20.629 peacemakers, and really welcome your reign of 00:02:20.629 --> 00:02:23.689 universal love, nonviolence, and peace on earth. 00:02:23.849 --> 00:02:27.909 We ask this in Jesus' name. Amen. It's a great 00:02:27.909 --> 00:02:30.669 blessing to welcome and introduce my friend Mike 00:02:30.669 --> 00:02:33.949 Martin, a blacksmith and founder of Raw Tools, 00:02:34.270 --> 00:02:36.530 which, as I said, I think is one of the most 00:02:36.530 --> 00:02:38.990 creative Christian peacemaking projects in the 00:02:38.990 --> 00:02:42.129 nation, and I really hope everyone will look 00:02:42.129 --> 00:02:45.189 it up and learn about it. I first met Mike I 00:02:45.189 --> 00:02:47.729 don't remember when, maybe 15 or 20 years ago 00:02:47.729 --> 00:02:51.110 at the Wild Goose Christian Summer Festival in 00:02:51.110 --> 00:02:56.509 North Carolina. And I was giving a talk on peacemaking, 00:02:56.530 --> 00:02:59.810 perhaps even on Isaiah beating swords into plowshares. 00:02:59.889 --> 00:03:03.250 But while I was doing that, Mike was outside 00:03:03.250 --> 00:03:06.800 the tent. We were under a tent. Banging away 00:03:06.800 --> 00:03:10.460 on handguns and forging them in a blacksmith 00:03:10.460 --> 00:03:13.379 fire and eventually turning them into plowshares, 00:03:13.500 --> 00:03:16.400 garden tools, and little crosses to wear around 00:03:16.400 --> 00:03:20.699 your neck. I kid you not, it was, for me, thrilling. 00:03:21.360 --> 00:03:24.219 Because here I'm talking about beating swords 00:03:24.219 --> 00:03:27.139 into plowshares and people are listening to me, 00:03:27.199 --> 00:03:30.120 but he's actually out there doing it. And he's 00:03:30.120 --> 00:03:32.819 been doing it all over the country with his team 00:03:32.819 --> 00:03:37.400 and friends. Partly what I hope happens from 00:03:37.400 --> 00:03:41.539 this podcast is that folks in churches will contact 00:03:41.539 --> 00:03:47.139 Mike and invite him to your congregation. And 00:03:47.139 --> 00:03:50.259 during your conference or a weekend, you know, 00:03:50.259 --> 00:03:55.939 he can literally invite people to beat guns into 00:03:55.939 --> 00:04:00.990 plowshares and to garden tools. His project, 00:04:01.090 --> 00:04:04.150 which he calls Raw Tools, has taken off all around 00:04:04.150 --> 00:04:07.270 the country, and it's a great blessing to welcome. 00:04:07.430 --> 00:04:10.310 Mike is a former Mennonite youth and young adult 00:04:10.310 --> 00:04:14.270 pastor and has been licensed for this specialized 00:04:14.270 --> 00:04:17.970 ministry. by the Mountain State Mennonite Conference 00:04:17.970 --> 00:04:21.370 of the Mennonite Church USA. So it's very serious 00:04:21.370 --> 00:04:25.430 ministry. And as I keep saying, it's very creative 00:04:25.430 --> 00:04:28.610 and original. Mike has a BA in biblical studies. 00:04:28.930 --> 00:04:32.029 He specifically learned how to become a blacksmith 00:04:32.029 --> 00:04:35.209 in order to turn guns into garden tools and is 00:04:35.209 --> 00:04:38.449 very passionate in particular about nonviolence, 00:04:38.449 --> 00:04:40.670 restorative justice, and conflict mediation. 00:04:40.949 --> 00:04:43.610 He's trained for ministry and movement chaplaincy, 00:04:43.649 --> 00:04:47.129 restorative justice. dialogue circles, and it 00:04:47.129 --> 00:04:50.670 tries to encourage everyone to connect with building 00:04:50.670 --> 00:04:56.930 community. So check out his organization at Raw 00:04:56.930 --> 00:05:00.569 Tools at rawtools .org. I'm going to spell that. 00:05:00.689 --> 00:05:06.829 R -A -W -T -O -O -L -S .org. He's co -author 00:05:06.829 --> 00:05:10.560 of a great book. with our mutual friend, the 00:05:10.560 --> 00:05:13.579 great Shane Claiborne, called Beating Guns, Hope 00:05:13.579 --> 00:05:16.500 for People Who Are Weary of Violence. Mike Martin, 00:05:16.660 --> 00:05:20.319 welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. Thanks 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:22.899 for having me on, John. It's a joy to be with 00:05:22.899 --> 00:05:25.199 you. And having just had you in our community 00:05:25.199 --> 00:05:28.399 speaking at my church recently, it feels like 00:05:28.399 --> 00:05:32.079 you were just here. So it's fun to be in conversation 00:05:32.079 --> 00:05:35.970 again. Great. What the heck happened, Mike? How 00:05:35.970 --> 00:05:37.790 did you get into all this? How did you become 00:05:37.790 --> 00:05:40.209 a blacksmith? Where did Jesus say, if you want 00:05:40.209 --> 00:05:42.089 to follow me, you have to become a blacksmith? 00:05:42.310 --> 00:05:46.529 But apparently he was quoting Isaiah. So tell 00:05:46.529 --> 00:05:52.170 us about the journey to this work. Yeah, I think 00:05:52.170 --> 00:05:57.089 it's first grounded in my Mennonite faith, which 00:05:57.089 --> 00:05:59.629 sits as one of the historical peace churches. 00:06:01.000 --> 00:06:03.319 That scripture of turning swords into plowshares, 00:06:03.480 --> 00:06:05.980 actually like Micah's version better because 00:06:05.980 --> 00:06:08.379 it talks about sitting under your own vine and 00:06:08.379 --> 00:06:11.399 fig tree in fear of no other kind of after the 00:06:11.399 --> 00:06:14.060 part that we know about with turning swords into 00:06:14.060 --> 00:06:17.000 plowshares. And for some reason, I couldn't really 00:06:17.000 --> 00:06:20.680 kind of get that out of my head. It became the 00:06:20.680 --> 00:06:25.019 thing that calling, but I like Parker Palmer's 00:06:25.019 --> 00:06:27.639 description of doing what you can't not do. And 00:06:27.639 --> 00:06:31.790 so, you know, it was kind of. uh festering a 00:06:31.790 --> 00:06:33.470 little bit for a year or two figuring out how 00:06:33.470 --> 00:06:35.350 are we actually going to do this because i didn't 00:06:35.350 --> 00:06:39.050 know how to blacksmith um and then through a 00:06:39.050 --> 00:06:42.389 business that my dad started he knew a blacksmith 00:06:42.389 --> 00:06:46.350 and um you know asked if he he would teach us 00:06:46.350 --> 00:06:48.629 how to how to do this and we went out to his 00:06:48.629 --> 00:06:51.649 shop and he showed us and it was much more accessible 00:06:51.649 --> 00:06:55.930 than i had ever thought um and and that's kind 00:06:55.930 --> 00:06:59.339 of where it started out of there and then Right 00:06:59.339 --> 00:07:01.860 about the same time, we started in February of 00:07:01.860 --> 00:07:07.879 2013, and Sandy Hook was two and a half months 00:07:07.879 --> 00:07:11.319 before that. So my wife is an elementary school 00:07:11.319 --> 00:07:15.939 teacher and was at that time. And like a lot 00:07:15.939 --> 00:07:18.420 of other organizations who started soon after 00:07:18.420 --> 00:07:22.600 that, it was kind of, you know, we've had enough 00:07:22.600 --> 00:07:25.939 of this. And I was in high school when Columbine 00:07:25.939 --> 00:07:28.389 happened, but it didn't register. at the level 00:07:28.389 --> 00:07:32.209 that uh sandy hook did so um there was there 00:07:32.209 --> 00:07:34.089 was that faith piece but also the current events 00:07:34.089 --> 00:07:36.910 that um sandy hook also really galvanized a lot 00:07:36.910 --> 00:07:39.569 of people around us who we kind of talked about 00:07:39.569 --> 00:07:42.410 this idea to really help support and get it going 00:07:42.410 --> 00:07:45.649 and kind of keep nudging us to do it so um it 00:07:45.649 --> 00:07:48.310 was kind of born out of this american culture 00:07:48.310 --> 00:07:53.600 uh that we find ourselves in but wanting to give 00:07:53.600 --> 00:07:56.500 a different option moving forward from this, 00:07:56.540 --> 00:07:59.480 the Mennonite faith that I grew up with. Wow, 00:07:59.660 --> 00:08:03.259 that's very exciting and beautiful. So tell us 00:08:03.259 --> 00:08:05.779 about the first few years of your work and what 00:08:05.779 --> 00:08:09.279 you actually do, just the general idea of it, 00:08:09.379 --> 00:08:14.360 how it works. Yeah, partnering with Shane Claiborne 00:08:14.360 --> 00:08:17.339 from the beginning was a really big help. We 00:08:17.339 --> 00:08:19.459 kind of soft launched at a big conference, the 00:08:19.459 --> 00:08:21.480 Justice Conference that was in Philly that year. 00:08:21.949 --> 00:08:26.689 And it helped originate kind of this process 00:08:26.689 --> 00:08:28.649 of where we go across the country and do events. 00:08:28.990 --> 00:08:32.190 We hear from folks who've been directly impacted 00:08:32.190 --> 00:08:35.750 by gun violence, whether they themselves survived 00:08:35.750 --> 00:08:40.029 or lost a loved one. They tell their story. It's 00:08:40.029 --> 00:08:44.610 always kind of within a format of having artists 00:08:44.610 --> 00:08:47.830 share as well, because what we do is standing 00:08:47.830 --> 00:08:50.769 on the shoulders of a lot of artists. prophets 00:08:50.769 --> 00:08:52.950 who have come before who have turned weapons 00:08:52.950 --> 00:08:56.450 of war into art um and done stuff here locally 00:08:56.450 --> 00:08:58.889 with guns you know we're not the first organization 00:08:58.889 --> 00:09:02.049 to do this um probably talk later about more 00:09:02.049 --> 00:09:05.870 of the logistics of it but um it's it's that 00:09:05.870 --> 00:09:08.669 idea of bringing the direct impact of what it 00:09:08.669 --> 00:09:11.029 does to our community by hearing from folks who've 00:09:11.029 --> 00:09:13.649 been directly impacted while at the same time 00:09:13.649 --> 00:09:17.090 having the anvil present and inviting folks into 00:09:17.090 --> 00:09:21.120 the process of participating in turning a gun 00:09:21.120 --> 00:09:24.220 into a garden tool or a piece of art or a necklace 00:09:24.220 --> 00:09:28.320 like a cross. And so having that kind of bodily 00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:31.360 experience of that transformation as well is 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:34.500 what we started doing from the beginning. It 00:09:34.500 --> 00:09:36.460 was all relational, word of mouth. Usually we'd 00:09:36.460 --> 00:09:39.899 go somewhere, someone would tell their friend 00:09:39.899 --> 00:09:41.580 or family member about it, and then we'd go to 00:09:41.580 --> 00:09:44.940 that community. So we'd travel across the country 00:09:44.940 --> 00:09:50.309 and turn a donated... from that community into 00:09:50.309 --> 00:09:53.909 a garden tool. And it was usually given to, you 00:09:53.909 --> 00:09:56.149 know, maybe a community garden or the survivor 00:09:56.149 --> 00:09:59.850 who shared. But it's about inviting people into 00:09:59.850 --> 00:10:02.669 this process of transformation, both recognizing 00:10:02.669 --> 00:10:05.789 the deep harm, but also that there's hope for 00:10:05.789 --> 00:10:08.750 something different, that we can change this. 00:10:09.789 --> 00:10:12.950 That's amazing. So let's first talk about the 00:10:12.950 --> 00:10:16.370 guns. Where do you get the guns and the weapons? 00:10:16.429 --> 00:10:21.529 How can folks in the various churches practically 00:10:21.529 --> 00:10:25.090 work with their local police to actually make 00:10:25.090 --> 00:10:29.590 it possible for people to quietly, legally, even 00:10:29.590 --> 00:10:34.679 anonymously turn in their guns to churches? I 00:10:34.679 --> 00:10:36.399 remember last year at the conference we were 00:10:36.399 --> 00:10:40.220 at together, hearing stories, all kinds of stories 00:10:40.220 --> 00:10:43.279 that are now emerging as the police are learning 00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:46.220 about what you're doing. And some are even going 00:10:46.220 --> 00:10:48.019 to activists saying, hey, how about bringing 00:10:48.019 --> 00:10:51.559 those people in? Or Shane was telling us, like, 00:10:51.700 --> 00:10:54.820 this police people offered them, what, hundreds 00:10:54.820 --> 00:10:58.100 of guns. And, you know, and that's happened to 00:10:58.100 --> 00:11:02.049 you. So tell us about the guns first. How do 00:11:02.049 --> 00:11:04.750 you get them and what's that like? And do you 00:11:04.750 --> 00:11:06.909 drive around the country with a big truckload 00:11:06.909 --> 00:11:10.710 full of guns? Or do people store them in the 00:11:10.710 --> 00:11:16.230 church before you arrive at an event? We aren't 00:11:16.230 --> 00:11:17.950 driving around with a whole bunch of guns. That 00:11:17.950 --> 00:11:20.649 doesn't happen. But we have a national network 00:11:20.649 --> 00:11:23.029 of volunteers who've been trained on how to destroy 00:11:23.029 --> 00:11:27.309 firearms according to the legal process. And 00:11:27.309 --> 00:11:29.190 that really allows us to get through a lot of 00:11:29.190 --> 00:11:31.679 the red tape that's attached to it. to firearms 00:11:31.679 --> 00:11:35.320 as far as laws and they're good laws um but it 00:11:35.320 --> 00:11:37.940 allows us to do it from really like a church 00:11:37.940 --> 00:11:41.000 and a faith witness space instead of having to 00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:44.080 you know be law enforcement ourselves or some 00:11:44.080 --> 00:11:47.480 other type of entity so we have the easiest way 00:11:47.480 --> 00:11:49.820 if you're someone who wants to get rid of some 00:11:49.820 --> 00:11:53.220 unwanted firearms that you have, would be to, 00:11:53.320 --> 00:11:55.100 there's a form on our website. You can fill it 00:11:55.100 --> 00:11:56.899 out. And from there, we connect you to somebody 00:11:56.899 --> 00:11:59.200 in your area. Usually we have somebody within 00:11:59.200 --> 00:12:01.639 two to three hours of most folks, often closer, 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:04.080 who can help you destroy that firearm. And then 00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:07.519 it's mailed to one of our blacksmiths in our 00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:10.059 network. And there's about 50 to 80 of those 00:12:10.059 --> 00:12:13.500 who help us turn it into something. So it's really 00:12:13.500 --> 00:12:16.929 about involving. as many people as possible in 00:12:16.929 --> 00:12:19.029 this process and not having it too centralized 00:12:19.029 --> 00:12:23.370 and then outside of that individual way to turn 00:12:23.370 --> 00:12:26.610 in a firearm we also have kind of created and 00:12:26.610 --> 00:12:30.789 designed our own buyback model which we call 00:12:30.789 --> 00:12:34.110 guns to garden safe disposal events so some of 00:12:34.110 --> 00:12:37.769 them do compensate for the donated firearms that 00:12:37.769 --> 00:12:39.970 could just get destroyed in front of you when 00:12:39.970 --> 00:12:44.120 you turn them in And there's a fun story about 00:12:44.120 --> 00:12:45.960 that. But the last piece is then also working 00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:49.360 with police who have confiscated weapons that 00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:51.899 they would normally have destroyed. Or maybe 00:12:51.899 --> 00:12:55.159 their municipality is figuring out we don't want 00:12:55.159 --> 00:12:56.740 to resell these anymore because that happens 00:12:56.740 --> 00:13:00.340 a lot. We want to destroy them. And so people 00:13:00.340 --> 00:13:02.980 have heard of our organization. And so we've 00:13:02.980 --> 00:13:05.620 worked with some smaller municipalities with 00:13:05.620 --> 00:13:09.139 that. Our Raw Tools Buffalo affiliate works with 00:13:09.139 --> 00:13:13.480 the local police there. in Buffalo and destroys 00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:17.320 a few hundred guns a year from their confiscated 00:13:17.320 --> 00:13:20.860 firearms. And so there's really a lot of different 00:13:20.860 --> 00:13:23.259 ways that we interact with the communities to 00:13:23.259 --> 00:13:26.039 get that. But the thing that really made it happen 00:13:26.039 --> 00:13:30.559 was there was a retired ATF, which is the Bureau 00:13:30.559 --> 00:13:32.720 of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, the federal 00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:35.980 agency that kind of regulates firearms. He was 00:13:36.539 --> 00:13:39.840 on a trip uh i think he hiked kilimanjaro and 00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:42.159 was waiting the airport afterwards and he was 00:13:42.159 --> 00:13:44.779 sitting next to uh one of the only other americans 00:13:44.779 --> 00:13:47.259 in the terminal who happened to be a mennonite 00:13:47.259 --> 00:13:51.259 author and um through various connections he 00:13:51.259 --> 00:13:54.120 was connected to us so he wrote a letter to the 00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:57.100 atf on our behalf that basically asked if what 00:13:57.100 --> 00:14:01.720 what we were doing really did um wasn't you know 00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:04.039 going to ruffle too many feathers but also uh 00:14:04.039 --> 00:14:06.240 that if our interpretation of the law was correct 00:14:06.240 --> 00:14:09.259 and that allowed us to say that if you want to 00:14:09.259 --> 00:14:12.440 uh kind of getting through not to get too much 00:14:12.440 --> 00:14:14.639 into the weeds but if you want to donate a gun 00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:17.500 to us and we cut it up in front of you no transfer 00:14:17.500 --> 00:14:20.419 of ownership happens that's really what the atf 00:14:20.419 --> 00:14:25.399 does is regulate who can sell or not and who 00:14:25.399 --> 00:14:32.019 can buy firearms um so if you have Otherwise, 00:14:32.100 --> 00:14:34.179 I would have to do a background check on people. 00:14:34.279 --> 00:14:35.899 But if I'm destroying it in front of them, then 00:14:35.899 --> 00:14:38.440 no transfer of ownership happens. And if that's 00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:41.080 the case, we can create these public events where 00:14:41.080 --> 00:14:42.659 people can turn them in and have them destroyed 00:14:42.659 --> 00:14:45.940 in front of them, which also creates trust. A 00:14:45.940 --> 00:14:48.740 lot of people have turned in firearms to law 00:14:48.740 --> 00:14:50.460 enforcement in the past, and they really aren't 00:14:50.460 --> 00:14:52.580 guaranteed what's going to happen to that firearm. 00:14:52.740 --> 00:14:55.460 So we've built a lot of trust in our communities 00:14:55.460 --> 00:14:58.480 that we do this with. Oftentimes, they're funded 00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:00.779 by police departments, but we try and do them. 00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:04.220 as often as we can without police present, at 00:15:04.220 --> 00:15:06.019 least in uniform. They might volunteer on their 00:15:06.019 --> 00:15:08.620 own time. But that's actually been a beauty of 00:15:08.620 --> 00:15:12.120 these safe disposal events is they have 50 to 00:15:12.120 --> 00:15:14.279 60 volunteers at some of them, and they're coming 00:15:14.279 --> 00:15:16.360 from so many different places. But they are agreeing 00:15:16.360 --> 00:15:21.240 on this one praxis that we believe that people 00:15:21.240 --> 00:15:23.899 should be able to safely destroy firearms when 00:15:23.899 --> 00:15:26.919 they feel the need to. And that's created some 00:15:26.919 --> 00:15:30.139 pretty beautiful relationships and stories. That's 00:15:30.139 --> 00:15:34.360 just so beautiful, Mike, and holy and creative 00:15:34.360 --> 00:15:39.419 and new and exciting. And I wish everybody in 00:15:39.419 --> 00:15:41.740 the country knew about this. I wish every church 00:15:41.740 --> 00:15:45.340 could have you in and start this program. I didn't 00:15:45.340 --> 00:15:48.320 realize it had become such a big movement. Just 00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:50.679 a side question, you know, you spoke about... 00:15:52.250 --> 00:15:54.809 Very powerful. The trust that people are saying, 00:15:54.889 --> 00:15:57.549 oh, like the weapon is really destroyed. The 00:15:57.549 --> 00:16:01.909 times I've been with you, I mean, first of all, 00:16:01.909 --> 00:16:04.070 it was such an education for me to actually see 00:16:04.070 --> 00:16:06.769 a blacksmith and then to hold pieces of a gun, 00:16:06.830 --> 00:16:09.889 which I've faced a lot of guns, but I've never 00:16:09.889 --> 00:16:13.129 held one in my life. I've faced a lot of armed 00:16:13.129 --> 00:16:16.210 cops around the world and at home, but never 00:16:16.210 --> 00:16:19.169 held part of it. And then to actually physically. 00:16:19.980 --> 00:16:24.919 Hammer, which is part of your program, is a physical 00:16:24.919 --> 00:16:29.299 act. And I remember you saying last year that 00:16:29.299 --> 00:16:31.700 for a lot of people that becomes a spiritual 00:16:31.700 --> 00:16:36.460 experience too, that they literally are enacting 00:16:36.460 --> 00:16:40.279 that scripture and something can change in them. 00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:43.460 Say something about that. Is that true? Yeah. 00:16:43.700 --> 00:16:47.850 Yeah, absolutely. tools we make is called a matic, 00:16:47.950 --> 00:16:49.690 which is kind of like a general all -purpose 00:16:49.690 --> 00:16:52.669 tool. But for our purposes, it has like a garden 00:16:52.669 --> 00:16:55.850 hoe on one side and a fork on the other. We like 00:16:55.850 --> 00:16:57.950 to refer to those as the plow and the pruning 00:16:57.950 --> 00:17:01.370 hooks from the scripture. But because of that, 00:17:01.490 --> 00:17:02.870 you know, the scripture, the swords and plows 00:17:02.870 --> 00:17:05.069 in the ancient Near Eastern languages, it was 00:17:05.069 --> 00:17:07.289 more poetic than what we get in our English language. 00:17:07.690 --> 00:17:10.849 So we like to use this phrase that semi -automatic 00:17:10.849 --> 00:17:14.650 to matic is somatic. And that somatic aspect. 00:17:15.319 --> 00:17:18.339 Yeah, we want to carry that kind of poetry through 00:17:18.339 --> 00:17:20.380 a little bit, but the somatic piece is really 00:17:20.380 --> 00:17:23.839 like my eagerness to use a pun as much as I can. 00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:28.240 But it speaks to this bodily experience and how 00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:31.519 we hold trauma, that when someone who's been 00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:34.140 impacted by gun violence is holding a hammer 00:17:34.140 --> 00:17:38.539 and pounding on a gun barrel. And sometimes when 00:17:38.539 --> 00:17:41.220 people, well, let me finish the story first. 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:45.799 This energy that is trapped in their body that 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:49.220 from that trauma, we have so many survivors who 00:17:49.220 --> 00:17:53.099 tell us this was the first time in decades, maybe 00:17:53.099 --> 00:17:55.599 months, depending on when their experience, their 00:17:55.599 --> 00:17:57.960 traumatic experience happened, that it's the 00:17:57.960 --> 00:18:00.420 first time that they've been able to deal with 00:18:00.420 --> 00:18:04.099 their anger or their pain in a healthy way. So 00:18:04.099 --> 00:18:06.000 when we think of like somatic ways that people 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:08.210 might react, it could be like. Throwing your 00:18:08.210 --> 00:18:10.450 phone against the wall or punching the wall or 00:18:10.450 --> 00:18:14.730 verbally screaming at somebody because we don't 00:18:14.730 --> 00:18:16.589 do a very good job of cultivating healthy ways 00:18:16.589 --> 00:18:19.390 to deal with pain and anger in our society. And 00:18:19.390 --> 00:18:22.049 for gun violence survivors, using that hammer 00:18:22.049 --> 00:18:24.769 on the gun barrel. And it's not just like a rage 00:18:24.769 --> 00:18:26.970 room experience where you're getting that out. 00:18:27.029 --> 00:18:31.130 You're simultaneously destroying the thing that 00:18:31.130 --> 00:18:33.829 brought you harm while also transforming it into 00:18:33.829 --> 00:18:36.779 something that's going to cultivate life. It's 00:18:36.779 --> 00:18:39.420 a transformation of your acre in an instant. 00:18:39.579 --> 00:18:44.319 And, you know, if sacrament is a holy mystery, 00:18:44.500 --> 00:18:46.319 then there is something happening there that, 00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:48.400 like, we can talk about this, but the way it 00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:51.779 feels in your body for these survivors is different 00:18:51.779 --> 00:18:53.640 for all of them. And it carries so much meaning 00:18:53.640 --> 00:18:56.279 for them to be a part of that. We also work with 00:18:56.279 --> 00:19:00.079 a lot of pastors and clergy who have had to console 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:03.160 their community after a mass shooting or someone 00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:05.319 in the church passed away, and they might come 00:19:05.319 --> 00:19:10.099 in. and pick up the hammer and be a part of transforming 00:19:10.099 --> 00:19:12.160 something new out of something that brought their 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:16.440 community so much pain. And so that's a really 00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:19.460 big piece. And I would say really is at the center 00:19:19.460 --> 00:19:21.900 of what we do, that each of these processes, 00:19:22.059 --> 00:19:23.920 whether it's destroying the gun or making something 00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:27.019 out of it, is a safe space for survivors, especially 00:19:27.019 --> 00:19:30.400 to heal, but also so many of the rest of us who've 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:33.309 been impacted maybe. indirectly by gun violence, 00:19:33.529 --> 00:19:36.609 like what the mass trauma of mass shootings brings 00:19:36.609 --> 00:19:38.490 us. We don't have to be present to feel some 00:19:38.490 --> 00:19:41.930 of that. So there's this degrees of trauma that 00:19:41.930 --> 00:19:45.009 people are processing when they're at that anvil. 00:19:45.710 --> 00:19:50.789 Wow. So tell us then about these new creations 00:19:50.789 --> 00:19:55.769 that you make, garden tools, or I've seen artwork 00:19:55.769 --> 00:20:01.519 or crosses, and they're actually very... serious 00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:05.160 garden tools um and what you do with them you 00:20:05.160 --> 00:20:07.480 sell them right and where can people get them 00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:09.519 and tell us again about the website is that one 00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:15.380 place yeah rawtools .org rawtools raw is war 00:20:15.380 --> 00:20:17.240 backwards if you want another way to remember 00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:20.619 us that we're we're trying to create tools that 00:20:20.619 --> 00:20:22.740 are alternative to the tools that the world wants 00:20:22.740 --> 00:20:25.019 us to use to solve conflict so we're transforming 00:20:25.019 --> 00:20:27.759 these tools of violence into tools of life so 00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:31.000 garden tools really are the focus of what we 00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:33.720 make. But if you go to our website, you'll see 00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:35.880 that there's three different stores there because 00:20:35.880 --> 00:20:40.440 we have three affiliates, ours in Colorado, Philly 00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:43.380 there with Shane, and then Raw Tools South, which 00:20:43.380 --> 00:20:45.779 is in Asheville, North Carolina. And we all have 00:20:45.779 --> 00:20:48.599 a various, you know, kind of take on how we make 00:20:48.599 --> 00:20:52.299 our tools and art and jewelry. There's a lot 00:20:52.299 --> 00:20:55.019 of heart imagery because our mission, the first 00:20:55.019 --> 00:20:58.539 part of our mission is to disarm hearts. to forge 00:20:58.539 --> 00:21:01.059 peace and cultivate justice. So we make things 00:21:01.059 --> 00:21:03.039 that connect people to our mission, but also, 00:21:03.140 --> 00:21:07.680 you know, these tools are over -engineered. They're 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:10.740 not going to be the $5 ones you get at Home Depot 00:21:10.740 --> 00:21:16.099 or wherever else. They're meant to work. We want 00:21:16.099 --> 00:21:18.079 them to be functional. We understand a lot of 00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:20.640 people will get them and kind of put them on 00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:23.500 a shelf or on their desk as a great conversation 00:21:23.500 --> 00:21:26.950 starter. And that really has... prove to be true 00:21:26.950 --> 00:21:29.009 for a lot of this stuff i think you have a cross 00:21:29.009 --> 00:21:33.029 that shane made maybe um and it it's a great 00:21:33.029 --> 00:21:35.809 way to enter into this conversation with our 00:21:35.809 --> 00:21:38.750 neighbors um so there's a that function that 00:21:38.750 --> 00:21:42.630 art uh poses in our society aspect to what we 00:21:42.630 --> 00:21:45.250 do too but we really do aim to make a lot of 00:21:45.250 --> 00:21:48.710 functional tools that can be active in our communities 00:21:48.710 --> 00:21:52.470 and and a part of that too wow it's so exciting 00:21:52.470 --> 00:21:57.500 well you know uh Last year when I saw you, so 00:21:57.500 --> 00:22:01.299 forgive my name dropping again, but your colleague 00:22:01.299 --> 00:22:06.420 gave me this very powerful, kind of large cross 00:22:06.420 --> 00:22:12.480 made from steel, some kind of small handgun. 00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:15.839 And a couple of days after I was with you, I 00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:18.319 gave it to my longtime friend, the rock star, 00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:22.480 Carlos Santana, who's just a beautiful soul interested 00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:25.700 in universal love. And I told him all about you 00:22:25.700 --> 00:22:28.599 and Shane and your project. And I was hoping 00:22:28.599 --> 00:22:31.400 he'd wear it at his concerts, but he couldn't 00:22:31.400 --> 00:22:34.140 believe it. He just couldn't believe it because 00:22:34.140 --> 00:22:38.319 he's all against gun violence. So it's, you know, 00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:41.059 what am I saying? They make really good gifts. 00:22:42.579 --> 00:22:45.400 And they're so powerful. I remember Dan Berrigan 00:22:45.400 --> 00:22:48.099 had a little tiny one that he wore in his collar. 00:22:48.220 --> 00:22:53.059 It was part of a nuclear weapon that was turned 00:22:53.059 --> 00:22:56.420 into the art form of a – it looked like an anchor, 00:22:56.619 --> 00:22:58.980 but it was supposed to be a plowshare. So tell 00:22:58.980 --> 00:23:02.269 us about – What you're offering these days when 00:23:02.269 --> 00:23:04.650 you show up at a conference or a church for a 00:23:04.650 --> 00:23:06.730 weekend and how it all works. You're out there 00:23:06.730 --> 00:23:09.369 in the parking lot while they're inside hearing 00:23:09.369 --> 00:23:12.250 about gun violence and nonviolence. And also 00:23:12.250 --> 00:23:14.990 the journey of these last, what is it, 12 years, 00:23:15.170 --> 00:23:18.329 how the whole project has expanded and grown 00:23:18.329 --> 00:23:21.450 and maybe one or two of some really inspiring 00:23:21.450 --> 00:23:26.289 experiences you've had along the way. Yeah, we've 00:23:26.289 --> 00:23:30.099 started doing that kind of. show up and do a 00:23:30.099 --> 00:23:32.420 gun to garden tool transformation while listening 00:23:32.420 --> 00:23:35.859 to somebody share their story. And that's expanded 00:23:35.859 --> 00:23:39.519 to other spaces where, you know, a church might 00:23:39.519 --> 00:23:41.599 choose to host us for a weekend. And we might 00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:44.319 also have other local organizations we really 00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:46.660 like to partner with. Like if I'm in Colorado 00:23:46.660 --> 00:23:49.079 and I'm going to another state, I want to be 00:23:49.079 --> 00:23:51.880 sure that this community can connect with maybe 00:23:51.880 --> 00:23:56.220 a mental health program or domestic violence 00:23:56.220 --> 00:23:59.019 or suicide prevention. program that's in their 00:23:59.019 --> 00:24:02.480 community. Gun violence has so many different 00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:05.920 intersections and how it shows up, and that varies 00:24:05.920 --> 00:24:08.420 from community to community. So we'll work with 00:24:08.420 --> 00:24:10.920 someone who's hosting us to make sure that they 00:24:10.920 --> 00:24:13.240 understand their context of gun violence and 00:24:13.240 --> 00:24:15.000 then see what other kind of supportive organizations 00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:18.319 can come alongside that and be there with us. 00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:21.480 So there could be workshops involved that we 00:24:21.480 --> 00:24:24.099 teach that might connect to, you know, kind of 00:24:24.099 --> 00:24:27.440 like a non -violence 101. ways to kind of expand 00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:30.240 on that. It could be nonviolent communication. 00:24:30.460 --> 00:24:33.259 It could be restorative practices, mediation, 00:24:33.500 --> 00:24:35.980 some like role -playing with de -escalation, 00:24:36.099 --> 00:24:39.839 bystander intervention. Some of these tools that 00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:41.960 we offer aren't always the tangible ones. They're 00:24:41.960 --> 00:24:43.859 how are we going to act in certain situations. 00:24:44.259 --> 00:24:47.240 But so much of it too is how are we going to 00:24:47.240 --> 00:24:49.799 cultivate relationships in our community where 00:24:49.799 --> 00:24:53.099 we can respect each other. Talking about gun 00:24:53.099 --> 00:24:56.170 violence in the public space. can get pretty 00:24:56.170 --> 00:24:59.069 heated sometimes, I would say even most of the 00:24:59.069 --> 00:25:02.609 time. So trying to help people feel comfortable 00:25:02.609 --> 00:25:04.549 in those conversations is another piece of what 00:25:04.549 --> 00:25:08.910 we do. We've got a couple of curriculums that 00:25:08.910 --> 00:25:13.029 are based in the Christian tradition and have 00:25:13.029 --> 00:25:16.309 worship resources, Bible study resources, how 00:25:16.309 --> 00:25:19.670 to host a healthy dialogue. We have another 12 00:25:19.670 --> 00:25:21.369 -week curriculum. These are both in partnership 00:25:21.369 --> 00:25:23.609 with Mennonite Central Committee, which is a 00:25:23.609 --> 00:25:27.579 relief. kind of organization within the Anabaptist 00:25:27.579 --> 00:25:32.960 realm. And this other curriculum we have is a 00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:36.660 12 -week thing to do, like in an adult Sunday 00:25:36.660 --> 00:25:39.539 school or something like that, where it gives 00:25:39.539 --> 00:25:41.779 churches opportunities to kind of flesh out what's 00:25:41.779 --> 00:25:44.640 it look like for them to respond to active violence 00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:47.660 in an unarmed way, and what parts of their theology 00:25:47.660 --> 00:25:50.480 inform that, what resources are available to 00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:53.539 help them with that, and what might they have 00:25:53.539 --> 00:25:55.990 to do. and maybe even be a resource in their 00:25:55.990 --> 00:26:00.130 community beyond that. So really it's trying 00:26:00.130 --> 00:26:02.750 to help churches kind of be that prophetic witness 00:26:02.750 --> 00:26:07.529 in their community as a different way to think 00:26:07.529 --> 00:26:10.549 about how we can approach gun violence and how 00:26:10.549 --> 00:26:13.809 not just to solve it, but to heal it too. Wow. 00:26:13.950 --> 00:26:17.630 Have you ever done an event at one of these? 00:26:19.789 --> 00:26:23.410 Places of survival of a massacre, say from Sandy 00:26:23.410 --> 00:26:28.329 Hook or Columbine or Parkland or, you know, there's 00:26:28.329 --> 00:26:31.470 so many places, Orlando, Las Vegas, the school 00:26:31.470 --> 00:26:35.069 in Texas where I've been working with the minister. 00:26:35.930 --> 00:26:39.190 Have you ever done anything? One of the things 00:26:39.190 --> 00:26:42.069 that started kind of the expansion of these public 00:26:42.069 --> 00:26:46.799 gun disposal events that we do. was after the 00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:49.140 mass shooting at the King Soopers in Boulder. 00:26:50.099 --> 00:26:53.720 And there's a Mennonite church across the street. 00:26:53.799 --> 00:26:56.339 And this happened right before Holy Week. And 00:26:56.339 --> 00:26:59.480 so on Good Friday at the Mennonite church, we 00:26:59.480 --> 00:27:02.579 set up in the parking lot. We had our anvil there 00:27:02.579 --> 00:27:04.380 set up. There are some other local organizations. 00:27:06.019 --> 00:27:07.880 There's another fun ministry called the Prayer 00:27:07.880 --> 00:27:10.420 Stream within our conference. So there was kind 00:27:10.420 --> 00:27:13.349 of like a prayerful space set up. this active 00:27:13.349 --> 00:27:15.549 space at our anvil and then other ways to connect 00:27:15.549 --> 00:27:18.309 and from that piece there's another church up 00:27:18.309 --> 00:27:22.869 the street that hosted our first gun disposal 00:27:22.869 --> 00:27:25.630 event a couple months later so that happened 00:27:25.630 --> 00:27:28.650 in march and then in june this church had already 00:27:28.650 --> 00:27:31.430 been really active in social justice in their 00:27:31.430 --> 00:27:34.529 community so much so that their their pastor 00:27:34.529 --> 00:27:38.309 would get threats and pretty significant ones 00:27:38.309 --> 00:27:42.569 so They had a police officer posted at her home, 00:27:42.650 --> 00:27:46.269 and he was the police officer that was shot and 00:27:46.269 --> 00:27:48.589 killed in the shooting at that grocery store 00:27:48.589 --> 00:27:51.769 down the street. And so when we hosted that, 00:27:51.849 --> 00:27:56.650 they had a deep connection to not only the local 00:27:56.650 --> 00:27:59.609 law enforcement, but also some of the community 00:27:59.609 --> 00:28:03.369 members. Everyone at that church frequented that 00:28:03.369 --> 00:28:07.579 King Soopers all the time. We had that event 00:28:07.579 --> 00:28:11.900 there, and as part of it, they initiated a prayer 00:28:11.900 --> 00:28:17.039 walk, not unlike a march down to the King Soopers, 00:28:17.180 --> 00:28:20.960 and then back again. And then we opened the event, 00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:24.180 and I think we destroyed about three dozen firearms 00:28:24.180 --> 00:28:27.579 that time on the first one. Wow, wow. And what 00:28:27.579 --> 00:28:32.099 was beautiful about it is that, you know, the... 00:28:32.480 --> 00:28:35.759 I was always hesitant at having law enforcement 00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:39.579 there. Some folks wanted it for security, but 00:28:39.579 --> 00:28:45.279 we put them in kind of less visible spaces so 00:28:45.279 --> 00:28:48.660 that it wouldn't kind of have that negative impact 00:28:48.660 --> 00:28:52.640 on the event itself. But the pastor talked about, 00:28:52.720 --> 00:28:55.799 you know, it gave them a taste of heaven. I love 00:28:55.799 --> 00:28:57.900 that phrase that she used because I think that 00:28:57.900 --> 00:29:00.519 connects to the scripture. You know, looking 00:29:00.519 --> 00:29:03.079 for that vine and fig tree, that beloved community 00:29:03.079 --> 00:29:05.720 and developing that. And part of that is building 00:29:05.720 --> 00:29:08.460 relationships because that the law enforcement 00:29:08.460 --> 00:29:11.480 community, you know, in their way were protection 00:29:11.480 --> 00:29:14.319 for her when she was threatened. And this was 00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:16.700 a way for the church to say, you know, we can 00:29:16.700 --> 00:29:19.359 we can do better than having to use firearms 00:29:19.359 --> 00:29:21.539 to protect ourselves and solve conflicts in our 00:29:21.539 --> 00:29:23.339 community. And this is how we want to be a prophetic 00:29:23.339 --> 00:29:27.619 witness to that. So that church really was groundbreaking 00:29:27.619 --> 00:29:30.869 for us. And the model that they use to help organize 00:29:30.869 --> 00:29:33.710 it has been expanded. We work really closely 00:29:33.710 --> 00:29:36.710 with Presbyterian Peace Fellowship, who has helped 00:29:36.710 --> 00:29:39.470 create these action circles. This is how other 00:29:39.470 --> 00:29:42.309 churches can host a gun disposal at their event 00:29:42.309 --> 00:29:45.109 to take these action circle classes that go over 00:29:45.109 --> 00:29:47.769 all, it gets deep into the weeds about gift cards, 00:29:47.869 --> 00:29:50.170 insurance, all the stuff that is not fun to talk 00:29:50.170 --> 00:29:53.009 about on what you can expect if you're to host 00:29:53.009 --> 00:29:56.750 an event like this and how to do it safely. So 00:29:56.750 --> 00:29:59.470 it's... That's one of my favorite stories to 00:29:59.470 --> 00:30:03.269 tell. And then, you know, on the other side of 00:30:03.269 --> 00:30:07.369 our work with restorative practices, especially, 00:30:07.450 --> 00:30:14.130 you know, getting to be a part of these dialogues 00:30:14.130 --> 00:30:17.930 where in Colorado, we call it high impact dialogue, 00:30:18.069 --> 00:30:20.769 which a lot of other people know as victim offender 00:30:20.769 --> 00:30:24.869 dialogue. So in high impact is that way because 00:30:24.869 --> 00:30:28.160 it was. under threat of death or actual lethal, 00:30:28.339 --> 00:30:33.500 someone died in their conflict. And so to get 00:30:33.500 --> 00:30:37.599 someone who's incarcerated talking to the person 00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:39.420 that they harmed or someone from the family that 00:30:39.420 --> 00:30:43.660 they harmed. There was a recent person who shared 00:30:43.660 --> 00:30:45.940 actually at a local nonviolence class at a college 00:30:45.940 --> 00:30:48.539 about his experience and I got to co -facilitate 00:30:48.539 --> 00:30:52.259 his transformation and he robbed a store at gunpoint. 00:30:53.529 --> 00:30:55.490 And to be a part of, you know, fast forwarding 00:30:55.490 --> 00:31:00.309 20 years, he got to be a part of talking to the 00:31:00.309 --> 00:31:03.390 person that he held at gunpoint. And the way 00:31:03.390 --> 00:31:10.630 that they kind of healed or started some of their 00:31:10.630 --> 00:31:12.549 healing together, because they still are in connection, 00:31:12.769 --> 00:31:16.529 it was a part of his, this person who was incarcerated, 00:31:16.809 --> 00:31:21.470 his sentence was going to get stayed and commuted 00:31:21.470 --> 00:31:23.819 and he was going to get released. They wanted 00:31:23.819 --> 00:31:25.640 a victim statement and the victim wanted to meet 00:31:25.640 --> 00:31:28.859 with him. And so we co -facilitated this happening. 00:31:29.480 --> 00:31:32.420 And one of the things in restorative practice, 00:31:32.740 --> 00:31:35.140 forgiveness is a big part of it, but it's never, 00:31:35.200 --> 00:31:37.700 ever mentioned in the lead up to the actual dialogue. 00:31:37.859 --> 00:31:40.940 It's an undue burden to put on a victim, but 00:31:40.940 --> 00:31:43.660 it often happens so organically. And I distinctly 00:31:43.660 --> 00:31:45.819 remember, I remember very little of the conversation, 00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:47.740 but I remember afterwards when we got up from 00:31:47.740 --> 00:31:50.539 the table, they kind of went in for the handshake 00:31:50.539 --> 00:31:53.059 that turns into a hug. And then they each put 00:31:53.059 --> 00:31:55.680 their hands on the back of each other's necks, 00:31:55.720 --> 00:31:58.059 and they were forehead to forehead. And it was 00:31:58.059 --> 00:32:01.559 just, I forgive you, I love you, I forgive you, 00:32:01.579 --> 00:32:04.119 I love you, back and forth. And they were both 00:32:04.119 --> 00:32:07.140 weeping. And it was one of the most beautiful 00:32:07.140 --> 00:32:08.920 things I've ever been a part of. And that just 00:32:08.920 --> 00:32:13.039 kind of sees what's possible on the other side. 00:32:13.099 --> 00:32:15.079 We can ask people to lay down their firearms, 00:32:15.240 --> 00:32:18.079 but we also still have to deal with conflict. 00:32:18.400 --> 00:32:20.319 That's not going to go away. And how do we deal 00:32:20.319 --> 00:32:22.609 with that? How do we heal with that? In a healthy 00:32:22.609 --> 00:32:26.589 way. And for me, restorative practices is the 00:32:26.589 --> 00:32:28.890 avenue that we can take to do that. And you know 00:32:28.890 --> 00:32:31.329 that as well as anybody else. Thank you so much, 00:32:31.369 --> 00:32:34.210 Mike. That's so beautiful and inspiring. We were 00:32:34.210 --> 00:32:38.170 together last summer at a very memorable national 00:32:38.170 --> 00:32:42.089 conference on gun violence hosted by the Presbyterian 00:32:42.089 --> 00:32:44.470 Peace Fellowship. I don't remember their website, 00:32:44.569 --> 00:32:46.630 but everyone should look it up because as Mike 00:32:46.630 --> 00:32:49.880 said, they put out. fabulous materials on how 00:32:49.880 --> 00:32:52.660 churches can respond to gun violence. This was 00:32:52.660 --> 00:32:55.519 at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico, the spectacular place 00:32:55.519 --> 00:32:58.059 out in the desert where Georgia O 'Keeffe lived. 00:32:58.200 --> 00:33:00.880 And I was speaking and so many other wonderful 00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:03.539 speakers and activists around the country. But 00:33:03.539 --> 00:33:05.619 the whole time you were there out in the desert 00:33:05.619 --> 00:33:09.259 with your big pickup truck and contraption and 00:33:09.259 --> 00:33:15.799 fire and helmets and everybody there took a turn. 00:33:19.029 --> 00:33:22.250 hammering actual handguns or rifles of various 00:33:22.250 --> 00:33:28.710 descriptions into garden tools. Just as we're 00:33:28.710 --> 00:33:31.589 coming toward the end, what's this all like for 00:33:31.589 --> 00:33:34.829 you, and how might this be replicated? I think 00:33:34.829 --> 00:33:38.289 it's got to be very empowering for you, and it 00:33:38.289 --> 00:33:40.690 was for all of us there who were participating 00:33:40.690 --> 00:33:47.000 in it. But I also think, you know, it must generate 00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:49.759 a lot of hope for you and everybody who gets 00:33:49.759 --> 00:33:52.500 involved. We all kind of left feeling there is 00:33:52.500 --> 00:33:55.019 hope. You know, there always is hope if we actually 00:33:55.019 --> 00:33:59.019 do what the Word of God says. So all of this 00:33:59.019 --> 00:34:01.259 I'm going to lead up to eventually, you know, 00:34:01.259 --> 00:34:04.940 how can people contact you? So tell us about 00:34:04.940 --> 00:34:07.079 that weekend and others like them. What's it 00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:09.519 like for you to live this life that you're living 00:34:09.519 --> 00:34:12.579 now, which is so beautiful and rare and original? 00:34:14.579 --> 00:34:18.260 Yeah, I think one of the roles I like to follow 00:34:18.260 --> 00:34:20.179 about good organizing is start small and get 00:34:20.179 --> 00:34:24.340 smaller. And going to conferences like that really, 00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:27.500 they do give me a ton of hope, especially if 00:34:27.500 --> 00:34:30.940 there's like a big uptick, like maybe we had 00:34:30.940 --> 00:34:33.400 recently with some of the high profile shootings, 00:34:33.619 --> 00:34:36.639 that you can start to slide into hopelessness 00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:39.219 and wondering if what you're doing is effective. 00:34:39.539 --> 00:34:41.880 And then you go to a conference like that and 00:34:41.880 --> 00:34:44.760 you see people you've never met before. Another 00:34:44.760 --> 00:34:47.719 organization has helped train them into this 00:34:47.719 --> 00:34:54.719 idea of swords to plowshares. And it helps, like 00:34:54.719 --> 00:34:57.539 it's another way of, it's like reciprocal encouragement. 00:34:57.619 --> 00:35:01.920 Like, oh yeah, let's keep at this. But I think, 00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:05.800 you know, I've probably hammered on a gun barrel 00:35:05.800 --> 00:35:08.280 thousands of times now, and each time it's still 00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:10.659 just as meaningful. Like the experience itself. 00:35:12.250 --> 00:35:14.809 But to share it with others, it just is that 00:35:14.809 --> 00:35:18.769 compounding, healthy compounding of where we 00:35:18.769 --> 00:35:21.789 feel like this is where our world can go if we 00:35:21.789 --> 00:35:24.769 just give it a chance. That's great. You know, 00:35:24.889 --> 00:35:30.329 as you're talking to me, it's just so inspiring. 00:35:30.429 --> 00:35:33.349 I think every Christian in the U .S. needs to 00:35:33.349 --> 00:35:36.050 help get rid of guns. We need to get end gun 00:35:36.050 --> 00:35:38.670 violence, and we need good laws, but we also 00:35:38.670 --> 00:35:41.730 do all this new rich. work that you're doing. 00:35:41.909 --> 00:35:46.230 And so how could this become kind of a national 00:35:46.230 --> 00:35:49.510 ministry for churches around the country? How 00:35:49.510 --> 00:35:52.750 could people contact you and invite you and your 00:35:52.750 --> 00:35:56.969 teams and all your movement to come to their 00:35:56.969 --> 00:36:01.929 conference or church? Even if it's just a regular 00:36:01.929 --> 00:36:04.010 church weekend, you could be out in the parking 00:36:04.010 --> 00:36:07.829 lot with your flyers. And then a last theoretical 00:36:07.829 --> 00:36:11.530 thing. This is all too much, but I think you're 00:36:11.530 --> 00:36:14.469 doing what Gandhi insisted, which is that you 00:36:14.469 --> 00:36:17.230 can't just be talking about nonviolence or even 00:36:17.230 --> 00:36:20.070 organizing nonviolence and nonviolent resistance, 00:36:20.369 --> 00:36:22.969 which is what we need. But you have to have a 00:36:22.969 --> 00:36:26.070 constructive program on the other side, a positive 00:36:26.070 --> 00:36:30.269 way to end poverty. You're doing... something 00:36:30.269 --> 00:36:34.250 that every ordinary person in the country and 00:36:34.250 --> 00:36:37.929 around the world can get involved in to literally 00:36:37.929 --> 00:36:41.190 fulfill the scriptures and beat swords into plowshares. 00:36:41.949 --> 00:36:45.550 Any thoughts on all of that? Yeah, well, the 00:36:45.550 --> 00:36:47.690 easiest way to contact us to bring us to your 00:36:47.690 --> 00:36:49.670 community, whether that's me or one of our other 00:36:49.670 --> 00:36:52.030 affiliates who are near you, is to go to our 00:36:52.030 --> 00:36:56.909 website at rawtools .org, rawtools .org. and 00:36:56.909 --> 00:36:59.409 fill out the form about having an event, or you 00:36:59.409 --> 00:37:02.929 could just send an email to our info at rawtools 00:37:02.929 --> 00:37:06.869 .org and ask any question you want. I love having 00:37:06.869 --> 00:37:09.670 dialogue. In fact, I'd rather be doing that than 00:37:09.670 --> 00:37:14.730 some of the other logistics of running an organization. 00:37:15.090 --> 00:37:18.610 So reach out, go to our website, whatever the 00:37:18.610 --> 00:37:22.849 contact us info is on there, send us a snail 00:37:22.849 --> 00:37:26.480 mail if you want to also. Give us a call. Happy 00:37:26.480 --> 00:37:31.480 to talk. And and honestly, from there, it's that 00:37:31.480 --> 00:37:33.460 compounding hope that I talked about. There's 00:37:33.460 --> 00:37:36.679 there's an addictive element to this that I think 00:37:36.679 --> 00:37:40.300 feeds into Gandhi's idea of the constructive 00:37:40.300 --> 00:37:44.300 programs that says, you know, this churches and 00:37:44.300 --> 00:37:47.400 right now, social justice work within gun violence 00:37:47.400 --> 00:37:51.679 prevention tends to be testifying. These are 00:37:51.679 --> 00:37:54.530 needed to these are necessary testifying. you 00:37:54.530 --> 00:37:57.050 know, at public hearings for laws to be passed 00:37:57.050 --> 00:38:00.030 or writing your representatives and urging them 00:38:00.030 --> 00:38:05.050 to vote certain ways. That all can get so tiring 00:38:05.050 --> 00:38:08.289 and exhausting, especially if you live in different 00:38:08.289 --> 00:38:11.429 places where that can fall on deaf ears. And 00:38:11.429 --> 00:38:16.510 so doing this programming tends to elicit people 00:38:16.510 --> 00:38:18.750 to say, okay, what's next? So they might host 00:38:18.750 --> 00:38:22.500 a gun to garden tool transformation event. And 00:38:22.500 --> 00:38:24.539 then we're like, okay, we love this. What's next 00:38:24.539 --> 00:38:27.039 after that? How do I learn? How do I teach my 00:38:27.039 --> 00:38:29.039 church nonviolence? Can you do a workshop on 00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:32.420 that? Can we host an event that people can destroy 00:38:32.420 --> 00:38:35.420 firearms? Or can we become a church in your network 00:38:35.420 --> 00:38:37.900 that you connect people to when people in our 00:38:37.900 --> 00:38:41.079 community want their firearms destroyed? How 00:38:41.079 --> 00:38:43.300 can we kind of lead into that prophetic witness? 00:38:44.199 --> 00:38:47.320 And then they were like, well, I want to teach 00:38:47.320 --> 00:38:52.090 some other, I want to be the one to be. teaching 00:38:52.090 --> 00:38:54.809 in my community. So it just compounds itself. 00:38:55.030 --> 00:38:58.210 So be careful what you wish for when you contact 00:38:58.210 --> 00:39:03.010 us, because we will pull you in. And it's such 00:39:03.010 --> 00:39:05.469 a joy to work with folks who continue to take 00:39:05.469 --> 00:39:10.309 the next step in being that voice of nonviolence. 00:39:10.309 --> 00:39:12.690 Thank you, Mike. Is there anything else you'd 00:39:12.690 --> 00:39:15.869 like to say before we end? Maybe that's a good 00:39:15.869 --> 00:39:19.559 note to end on. Yeah, feel free to, if you're 00:39:19.559 --> 00:39:22.519 new to what we do, check out the book, Beating 00:39:22.519 --> 00:39:25.440 Guns. There's also a great new book, children's 00:39:25.440 --> 00:39:27.639 book that my wife co -wrote called Sparking Peace 00:39:27.639 --> 00:39:30.960 that helps you do that with kids. It's a children's 00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:33.780 book. So there are great, there's so many different 00:39:33.780 --> 00:39:37.179 entry points to how you might work with us and 00:39:37.179 --> 00:39:40.179 go to our website. to start that. And please 00:39:40.179 --> 00:39:41.980 be in contact with us if you want to find out 00:39:41.980 --> 00:39:44.739 more. Well, thank you so much, Mike Martin of 00:39:44.739 --> 00:39:47.219 rawtools .org for speaking with me today. And 00:39:47.219 --> 00:39:49.559 friends, thanks so much for listening to this 00:39:49.559 --> 00:39:52.440 episode of the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. You 00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:54.980 can hear more podcasts and find other upcoming 00:39:54.980 --> 00:39:59.739 Zoom programs at www .beatitudescenter .org. 00:40:00.219 --> 00:40:03.199 And please consider offering a donation to support 00:40:03.199 --> 00:40:06.349 this free work. And if you can, maybe leave some 00:40:06.349 --> 00:40:09.750 positive feedback or review of the National Catholic 00:40:09.750 --> 00:40:13.750 Reporter online or Apple or Spotify or YouTube 00:40:13.750 --> 00:40:17.010 or Substack or whatever platform you use. And 00:40:17.010 --> 00:40:19.110 please help spread the word about the Nonviolent 00:40:19.110 --> 00:40:22.610 Jesus podcast by telling your friends and posting 00:40:22.610 --> 00:40:27.670 it on your Facebook and websites and church bulletins 00:40:27.670 --> 00:40:30.730 and e -blasts. May the God of peace bless you 00:40:30.730 --> 00:40:33.179 all. Keep on following the nonviolent Jesus. 00:40:33.659 --> 00:40:34.760 See you next time.