Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm
John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking
with my friend Mike Martin, a blacksmith and
founder of Raw Tools, one of the most creative...
Christian peacemaking projects in the country,
which I want everyone to know about. This program
is a project of BeatitudeCenter .org, where you
can find many other podcasts and regular Zoom
programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and practicing
nonviolence and working for a more just, more
nonviolent world. So what I like to do always
is begin with a little prayer. So I invite everyone.
wherever you are, just to take a deep breath
and to relax and notice how you're feeling. And
together, let's recenter ourselves. And I invite
you to enter into the presence of the God of
peace who loves you infinitely and personally
and everyone everywhere too. And let's welcome
the risen nonviolent Jesus here with us right
now. Just take a moment to ask for whatever grace
you need to follow the non -violent Jesus more
faithfully and to do God's will. Beloved God
of peace, thank you for all the blessings of
life, love, and peace that you give us. Be with
us now as we reflect together. on your call to
follow the nonviolent Jesus and to work for a
more nonviolent, more just world. Bless us. Inspire
us. Heal us, disarm us, strengthen us, and send
us out to do your will, to do our part to help
end poverty, racism, corporate greed, systemic
justice, gun violence, fascism, permanent warfare,
nuclear weapons, environmental destruction, and
the whole darn systems of violence, that we might
become your holy beatitude people. your holy
peacemakers, and really welcome your reign of
universal love, nonviolence, and peace on earth.
We ask this in Jesus' name. Amen. It's a great
blessing to welcome and introduce my friend Mike
Martin, a blacksmith and founder of Raw Tools,
which, as I said, I think is one of the most
creative Christian peacemaking projects in the
nation, and I really hope everyone will look
it up and learn about it. I first met Mike I
don't remember when, maybe 15 or 20 years ago
at the Wild Goose Christian Summer Festival in
North Carolina. And I was giving a talk on peacemaking,
perhaps even on Isaiah beating swords into plowshares.
But while I was doing that, Mike was outside
the tent. We were under a tent. Banging away
on handguns and forging them in a blacksmith
fire and eventually turning them into plowshares,
garden tools, and little crosses to wear around
your neck. I kid you not, it was, for me, thrilling.
Because here I'm talking about beating swords
into plowshares and people are listening to me,
but he's actually out there doing it. And he's
been doing it all over the country with his team
and friends. Partly what I hope happens from
this podcast is that folks in churches will contact
Mike and invite him to your congregation. And
during your conference or a weekend, you know,
he can literally invite people to beat guns into
plowshares and to garden tools. His project,
which he calls Raw Tools, has taken off all around
the country, and it's a great blessing to welcome.
Mike is a former Mennonite youth and young adult
pastor and has been licensed for this specialized
ministry. by the Mountain State Mennonite Conference
of the Mennonite Church USA. So it's very serious
ministry. And as I keep saying, it's very creative
and original. Mike has a BA in biblical studies.
He specifically learned how to become a blacksmith
in order to turn guns into garden tools and is
very passionate in particular about nonviolence,
restorative justice, and conflict mediation.
He's trained for ministry and movement chaplaincy,
restorative justice. dialogue circles, and it
tries to encourage everyone to connect with building
community. So check out his organization at Raw
Tools at rawtools .org. I'm going to spell that.
R -A -W -T -O -O -L -S .org. He's co -author
of a great book. with our mutual friend, the
great Shane Claiborne, called Beating Guns, Hope
for People Who Are Weary of Violence. Mike Martin,
welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. Thanks
for having me on, John. It's a joy to be with
you. And having just had you in our community
speaking at my church recently, it feels like
you were just here. So it's fun to be in conversation
again. Great. What the heck happened, Mike? How
did you get into all this? How did you become
a blacksmith? Where did Jesus say, if you want
to follow me, you have to become a blacksmith?
But apparently he was quoting Isaiah. So tell
us about the journey to this work. Yeah, I think
it's first grounded in my Mennonite faith, which
sits as one of the historical peace churches.
That scripture of turning swords into plowshares,
actually like Micah's version better because
it talks about sitting under your own vine and
fig tree in fear of no other kind of after the
part that we know about with turning swords into
plowshares. And for some reason, I couldn't really
kind of get that out of my head. It became the
thing that calling, but I like Parker Palmer's
description of doing what you can't not do. And
so, you know, it was kind of. uh festering a
little bit for a year or two figuring out how
are we actually going to do this because i didn't
know how to blacksmith um and then through a
business that my dad started he knew a blacksmith
and um you know asked if he he would teach us
how to how to do this and we went out to his
shop and he showed us and it was much more accessible
than i had ever thought um and and that's kind
of where it started out of there and then Right
about the same time, we started in February of
2013, and Sandy Hook was two and a half months
before that. So my wife is an elementary school
teacher and was at that time. And like a lot
of other organizations who started soon after
that, it was kind of, you know, we've had enough
of this. And I was in high school when Columbine
happened, but it didn't register. at the level
that uh sandy hook did so um there was there
was that faith piece but also the current events
that um sandy hook also really galvanized a lot
of people around us who we kind of talked about
this idea to really help support and get it going
and kind of keep nudging us to do it so um it
was kind of born out of this american culture
uh that we find ourselves in but wanting to give
a different option moving forward from this,
the Mennonite faith that I grew up with. Wow,
that's very exciting and beautiful. So tell us
about the first few years of your work and what
you actually do, just the general idea of it,
how it works. Yeah, partnering with Shane Claiborne
from the beginning was a really big help. We
kind of soft launched at a big conference, the
Justice Conference that was in Philly that year.
And it helped originate kind of this process
of where we go across the country and do events.
We hear from folks who've been directly impacted
by gun violence, whether they themselves survived
or lost a loved one. They tell their story. It's
always kind of within a format of having artists
share as well, because what we do is standing
on the shoulders of a lot of artists. prophets
who have come before who have turned weapons
of war into art um and done stuff here locally
with guns you know we're not the first organization
to do this um probably talk later about more
of the logistics of it but um it's it's that
idea of bringing the direct impact of what it
does to our community by hearing from folks who've
been directly impacted while at the same time
having the anvil present and inviting folks into
the process of participating in turning a gun
into a garden tool or a piece of art or a necklace
like a cross. And so having that kind of bodily
experience of that transformation as well is
what we started doing from the beginning. It
was all relational, word of mouth. Usually we'd
go somewhere, someone would tell their friend
or family member about it, and then we'd go to
that community. So we'd travel across the country
and turn a donated... from that community into
a garden tool. And it was usually given to, you
know, maybe a community garden or the survivor
who shared. But it's about inviting people into
this process of transformation, both recognizing
the deep harm, but also that there's hope for
something different, that we can change this.
That's amazing. So let's first talk about the
guns. Where do you get the guns and the weapons?
How can folks in the various churches practically
work with their local police to actually make
it possible for people to quietly, legally, even
anonymously turn in their guns to churches? I
remember last year at the conference we were
at together, hearing stories, all kinds of stories
that are now emerging as the police are learning
about what you're doing. And some are even going
to activists saying, hey, how about bringing
those people in? Or Shane was telling us, like,
this police people offered them, what, hundreds
of guns. And, you know, and that's happened to
you. So tell us about the guns first. How do
you get them and what's that like? And do you
drive around the country with a big truckload
full of guns? Or do people store them in the
church before you arrive at an event? We aren't
driving around with a whole bunch of guns. That
doesn't happen. But we have a national network
of volunteers who've been trained on how to destroy
firearms according to the legal process. And
that really allows us to get through a lot of
the red tape that's attached to it. to firearms
as far as laws and they're good laws um but it
allows us to do it from really like a church
and a faith witness space instead of having to
you know be law enforcement ourselves or some
other type of entity so we have the easiest way
if you're someone who wants to get rid of some
unwanted firearms that you have, would be to,
there's a form on our website. You can fill it
out. And from there, we connect you to somebody
in your area. Usually we have somebody within
two to three hours of most folks, often closer,
who can help you destroy that firearm. And then
it's mailed to one of our blacksmiths in our
network. And there's about 50 to 80 of those
who help us turn it into something. So it's really
about involving. as many people as possible in
this process and not having it too centralized
and then outside of that individual way to turn
in a firearm we also have kind of created and
designed our own buyback model which we call
guns to garden safe disposal events so some of
them do compensate for the donated firearms that
could just get destroyed in front of you when
you turn them in And there's a fun story about
that. But the last piece is then also working
with police who have confiscated weapons that
they would normally have destroyed. Or maybe
their municipality is figuring out we don't want
to resell these anymore because that happens
a lot. We want to destroy them. And so people
have heard of our organization. And so we've
worked with some smaller municipalities with
that. Our Raw Tools Buffalo affiliate works with
the local police there. in Buffalo and destroys
a few hundred guns a year from their confiscated
firearms. And so there's really a lot of different
ways that we interact with the communities to
get that. But the thing that really made it happen
was there was a retired ATF, which is the Bureau
of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, the federal
agency that kind of regulates firearms. He was
on a trip uh i think he hiked kilimanjaro and
was waiting the airport afterwards and he was
sitting next to uh one of the only other americans
in the terminal who happened to be a mennonite
author and um through various connections he
was connected to us so he wrote a letter to the
atf on our behalf that basically asked if what
what we were doing really did um wasn't you know
going to ruffle too many feathers but also uh
that if our interpretation of the law was correct
and that allowed us to say that if you want to
uh kind of getting through not to get too much
into the weeds but if you want to donate a gun
to us and we cut it up in front of you no transfer
of ownership happens that's really what the atf
does is regulate who can sell or not and who
can buy firearms um so if you have Otherwise,
I would have to do a background check on people.
But if I'm destroying it in front of them, then
no transfer of ownership happens. And if that's
the case, we can create these public events where
people can turn them in and have them destroyed
in front of them, which also creates trust. A
lot of people have turned in firearms to law
enforcement in the past, and they really aren't
guaranteed what's going to happen to that firearm.
So we've built a lot of trust in our communities
that we do this with. Oftentimes, they're funded
by police departments, but we try and do them.
as often as we can without police present, at
least in uniform. They might volunteer on their
own time. But that's actually been a beauty of
these safe disposal events is they have 50 to
60 volunteers at some of them, and they're coming
from so many different places. But they are agreeing
on this one praxis that we believe that people
should be able to safely destroy firearms when
they feel the need to. And that's created some
pretty beautiful relationships and stories. That's
just so beautiful, Mike, and holy and creative
and new and exciting. And I wish everybody in
the country knew about this. I wish every church
could have you in and start this program. I didn't
realize it had become such a big movement. Just
a side question, you know, you spoke about...
Very powerful. The trust that people are saying,
oh, like the weapon is really destroyed. The
times I've been with you, I mean, first of all,
it was such an education for me to actually see
a blacksmith and then to hold pieces of a gun,
which I've faced a lot of guns, but I've never
held one in my life. I've faced a lot of armed
cops around the world and at home, but never
held part of it. And then to actually physically.
Hammer, which is part of your program, is a physical
act. And I remember you saying last year that
for a lot of people that becomes a spiritual
experience too, that they literally are enacting
that scripture and something can change in them.
Say something about that. Is that true? Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. tools we make is called a matic,
which is kind of like a general all -purpose
tool. But for our purposes, it has like a garden
hoe on one side and a fork on the other. We like
to refer to those as the plow and the pruning
hooks from the scripture. But because of that,
you know, the scripture, the swords and plows
in the ancient Near Eastern languages, it was
more poetic than what we get in our English language.
So we like to use this phrase that semi -automatic
to matic is somatic. And that somatic aspect.
Yeah, we want to carry that kind of poetry through
a little bit, but the somatic piece is really
like my eagerness to use a pun as much as I can.
But it speaks to this bodily experience and how
we hold trauma, that when someone who's been
impacted by gun violence is holding a hammer
and pounding on a gun barrel. And sometimes when
people, well, let me finish the story first.
This energy that is trapped in their body that
from that trauma, we have so many survivors who
tell us this was the first time in decades, maybe
months, depending on when their experience, their
traumatic experience happened, that it's the
first time that they've been able to deal with
their anger or their pain in a healthy way. So
when we think of like somatic ways that people
might react, it could be like. Throwing your
phone against the wall or punching the wall or
verbally screaming at somebody because we don't
do a very good job of cultivating healthy ways
to deal with pain and anger in our society. And
for gun violence survivors, using that hammer
on the gun barrel. And it's not just like a rage
room experience where you're getting that out.
You're simultaneously destroying the thing that
brought you harm while also transforming it into
something that's going to cultivate life. It's
a transformation of your acre in an instant.
And, you know, if sacrament is a holy mystery,
then there is something happening there that,
like, we can talk about this, but the way it
feels in your body for these survivors is different
for all of them. And it carries so much meaning
for them to be a part of that. We also work with
a lot of pastors and clergy who have had to console
their community after a mass shooting or someone
in the church passed away, and they might come
in. and pick up the hammer and be a part of transforming
something new out of something that brought their
community so much pain. And so that's a really
big piece. And I would say really is at the center
of what we do, that each of these processes,
whether it's destroying the gun or making something
out of it, is a safe space for survivors, especially
to heal, but also so many of the rest of us who've
been impacted maybe. indirectly by gun violence,
like what the mass trauma of mass shootings brings
us. We don't have to be present to feel some
of that. So there's this degrees of trauma that
people are processing when they're at that anvil.
Wow. So tell us then about these new creations
that you make, garden tools, or I've seen artwork
or crosses, and they're actually very... serious
garden tools um and what you do with them you
sell them right and where can people get them
and tell us again about the website is that one
place yeah rawtools .org rawtools raw is war
backwards if you want another way to remember
us that we're we're trying to create tools that
are alternative to the tools that the world wants
us to use to solve conflict so we're transforming
these tools of violence into tools of life so
garden tools really are the focus of what we
make. But if you go to our website, you'll see
that there's three different stores there because
we have three affiliates, ours in Colorado, Philly
there with Shane, and then Raw Tools South, which
is in Asheville, North Carolina. And we all have
a various, you know, kind of take on how we make
our tools and art and jewelry. There's a lot
of heart imagery because our mission, the first
part of our mission is to disarm hearts. to forge
peace and cultivate justice. So we make things
that connect people to our mission, but also,
you know, these tools are over -engineered. They're
not going to be the $5 ones you get at Home Depot
or wherever else. They're meant to work. We want
them to be functional. We understand a lot of
people will get them and kind of put them on
a shelf or on their desk as a great conversation
starter. And that really has... prove to be true
for a lot of this stuff i think you have a cross
that shane made maybe um and it it's a great
way to enter into this conversation with our
neighbors um so there's a that function that
art uh poses in our society aspect to what we
do too but we really do aim to make a lot of
functional tools that can be active in our communities
and and a part of that too wow it's so exciting
well you know uh Last year when I saw you, so
forgive my name dropping again, but your colleague
gave me this very powerful, kind of large cross
made from steel, some kind of small handgun.
And a couple of days after I was with you, I
gave it to my longtime friend, the rock star,
Carlos Santana, who's just a beautiful soul interested
in universal love. And I told him all about you
and Shane and your project. And I was hoping
he'd wear it at his concerts, but he couldn't
believe it. He just couldn't believe it because
he's all against gun violence. So it's, you know,
what am I saying? They make really good gifts.
And they're so powerful. I remember Dan Berrigan
had a little tiny one that he wore in his collar.
It was part of a nuclear weapon that was turned
into the art form of a – it looked like an anchor,
but it was supposed to be a plowshare. So tell
us about – What you're offering these days when
you show up at a conference or a church for a
weekend and how it all works. You're out there
in the parking lot while they're inside hearing
about gun violence and nonviolence. And also
the journey of these last, what is it, 12 years,
how the whole project has expanded and grown
and maybe one or two of some really inspiring
experiences you've had along the way. Yeah, we've
started doing that kind of. show up and do a
gun to garden tool transformation while listening
to somebody share their story. And that's expanded
to other spaces where, you know, a church might
choose to host us for a weekend. And we might
also have other local organizations we really
like to partner with. Like if I'm in Colorado
and I'm going to another state, I want to be
sure that this community can connect with maybe
a mental health program or domestic violence
or suicide prevention. program that's in their
community. Gun violence has so many different
intersections and how it shows up, and that varies
from community to community. So we'll work with
someone who's hosting us to make sure that they
understand their context of gun violence and
then see what other kind of supportive organizations
can come alongside that and be there with us.
So there could be workshops involved that we
teach that might connect to, you know, kind of
like a non -violence 101. ways to kind of expand
on that. It could be nonviolent communication.
It could be restorative practices, mediation,
some like role -playing with de -escalation,
bystander intervention. Some of these tools that
we offer aren't always the tangible ones. They're
how are we going to act in certain situations.
But so much of it too is how are we going to
cultivate relationships in our community where
we can respect each other. Talking about gun
violence in the public space. can get pretty
heated sometimes, I would say even most of the
time. So trying to help people feel comfortable
in those conversations is another piece of what
we do. We've got a couple of curriculums that
are based in the Christian tradition and have
worship resources, Bible study resources, how
to host a healthy dialogue. We have another 12
-week curriculum. These are both in partnership
with Mennonite Central Committee, which is a
relief. kind of organization within the Anabaptist
realm. And this other curriculum we have is a
12 -week thing to do, like in an adult Sunday
school or something like that, where it gives
churches opportunities to kind of flesh out what's
it look like for them to respond to active violence
in an unarmed way, and what parts of their theology
inform that, what resources are available to
help them with that, and what might they have
to do. and maybe even be a resource in their
community beyond that. So really it's trying
to help churches kind of be that prophetic witness
in their community as a different way to think
about how we can approach gun violence and how
not just to solve it, but to heal it too. Wow.
Have you ever done an event at one of these?
Places of survival of a massacre, say from Sandy
Hook or Columbine or Parkland or, you know, there's
so many places, Orlando, Las Vegas, the school
in Texas where I've been working with the minister.
Have you ever done anything? One of the things
that started kind of the expansion of these public
gun disposal events that we do. was after the
mass shooting at the King Soopers in Boulder.
And there's a Mennonite church across the street.
And this happened right before Holy Week. And
so on Good Friday at the Mennonite church, we
set up in the parking lot. We had our anvil there
set up. There are some other local organizations.
There's another fun ministry called the Prayer
Stream within our conference. So there was kind
of like a prayerful space set up. this active
space at our anvil and then other ways to connect
and from that piece there's another church up
the street that hosted our first gun disposal
event a couple months later so that happened
in march and then in june this church had already
been really active in social justice in their
community so much so that their their pastor
would get threats and pretty significant ones
so They had a police officer posted at her home,
and he was the police officer that was shot and
killed in the shooting at that grocery store
down the street. And so when we hosted that,
they had a deep connection to not only the local
law enforcement, but also some of the community
members. Everyone at that church frequented that
King Soopers all the time. We had that event
there, and as part of it, they initiated a prayer
walk, not unlike a march down to the King Soopers,
and then back again. And then we opened the event,
and I think we destroyed about three dozen firearms
that time on the first one. Wow, wow. And what
was beautiful about it is that, you know, the...
I was always hesitant at having law enforcement
there. Some folks wanted it for security, but
we put them in kind of less visible spaces so
that it wouldn't kind of have that negative impact
on the event itself. But the pastor talked about,
you know, it gave them a taste of heaven. I love
that phrase that she used because I think that
connects to the scripture. You know, looking
for that vine and fig tree, that beloved community
and developing that. And part of that is building
relationships because that the law enforcement
community, you know, in their way were protection
for her when she was threatened. And this was
a way for the church to say, you know, we can
we can do better than having to use firearms
to protect ourselves and solve conflicts in our
community. And this is how we want to be a prophetic
witness to that. So that church really was groundbreaking
for us. And the model that they use to help organize
it has been expanded. We work really closely
with Presbyterian Peace Fellowship, who has helped
create these action circles. This is how other
churches can host a gun disposal at their event
to take these action circle classes that go over
all, it gets deep into the weeds about gift cards,
insurance, all the stuff that is not fun to talk
about on what you can expect if you're to host
an event like this and how to do it safely. So
it's... That's one of my favorite stories to
tell. And then, you know, on the other side of
our work with restorative practices, especially,
you know, getting to be a part of these dialogues
where in Colorado, we call it high impact dialogue,
which a lot of other people know as victim offender
dialogue. So in high impact is that way because
it was. under threat of death or actual lethal,
someone died in their conflict. And so to get
someone who's incarcerated talking to the person
that they harmed or someone from the family that
they harmed. There was a recent person who shared
actually at a local nonviolence class at a college
about his experience and I got to co -facilitate
his transformation and he robbed a store at gunpoint.
And to be a part of, you know, fast forwarding
20 years, he got to be a part of talking to the
person that he held at gunpoint. And the way
that they kind of healed or started some of their
healing together, because they still are in connection,
it was a part of his, this person who was incarcerated,
his sentence was going to get stayed and commuted
and he was going to get released. They wanted
a victim statement and the victim wanted to meet
with him. And so we co -facilitated this happening.
And one of the things in restorative practice,
forgiveness is a big part of it, but it's never,
ever mentioned in the lead up to the actual dialogue.
It's an undue burden to put on a victim, but
it often happens so organically. And I distinctly
remember, I remember very little of the conversation,
but I remember afterwards when we got up from
the table, they kind of went in for the handshake
that turns into a hug. And then they each put
their hands on the back of each other's necks,
and they were forehead to forehead. And it was
just, I forgive you, I love you, I forgive you,
I love you, back and forth. And they were both
weeping. And it was one of the most beautiful
things I've ever been a part of. And that just
kind of sees what's possible on the other side.
We can ask people to lay down their firearms,
but we also still have to deal with conflict.
That's not going to go away. And how do we deal
with that? How do we heal with that? In a healthy
way. And for me, restorative practices is the
avenue that we can take to do that. And you know
that as well as anybody else. Thank you so much,
Mike. That's so beautiful and inspiring. We were
together last summer at a very memorable national
conference on gun violence hosted by the Presbyterian
Peace Fellowship. I don't remember their website,
but everyone should look it up because as Mike
said, they put out. fabulous materials on how
churches can respond to gun violence. This was
at Ghost Ranch, New Mexico, the spectacular place
out in the desert where Georgia O 'Keeffe lived.
And I was speaking and so many other wonderful
speakers and activists around the country. But
the whole time you were there out in the desert
with your big pickup truck and contraption and
fire and helmets and everybody there took a turn.
hammering actual handguns or rifles of various
descriptions into garden tools. Just as we're
coming toward the end, what's this all like for
you, and how might this be replicated? I think
it's got to be very empowering for you, and it
was for all of us there who were participating
in it. But I also think, you know, it must generate
a lot of hope for you and everybody who gets
involved. We all kind of left feeling there is
hope. You know, there always is hope if we actually
do what the Word of God says. So all of this
I'm going to lead up to eventually, you know,
how can people contact you? So tell us about
that weekend and others like them. What's it
like for you to live this life that you're living
now, which is so beautiful and rare and original?
Yeah, I think one of the roles I like to follow
about good organizing is start small and get
smaller. And going to conferences like that really,
they do give me a ton of hope, especially if
there's like a big uptick, like maybe we had
recently with some of the high profile shootings,
that you can start to slide into hopelessness
and wondering if what you're doing is effective.
And then you go to a conference like that and
you see people you've never met before. Another
organization has helped train them into this
idea of swords to plowshares. And it helps, like
it's another way of, it's like reciprocal encouragement.
Like, oh yeah, let's keep at this. But I think,
you know, I've probably hammered on a gun barrel
thousands of times now, and each time it's still
just as meaningful. Like the experience itself.
But to share it with others, it just is that
compounding, healthy compounding of where we
feel like this is where our world can go if we
just give it a chance. That's great. You know,
as you're talking to me, it's just so inspiring.
I think every Christian in the U .S. needs to
help get rid of guns. We need to get end gun
violence, and we need good laws, but we also
do all this new rich. work that you're doing.
And so how could this become kind of a national
ministry for churches around the country? How
could people contact you and invite you and your
teams and all your movement to come to their
conference or church? Even if it's just a regular
church weekend, you could be out in the parking
lot with your flyers. And then a last theoretical
thing. This is all too much, but I think you're
doing what Gandhi insisted, which is that you
can't just be talking about nonviolence or even
organizing nonviolence and nonviolent resistance,
which is what we need. But you have to have a
constructive program on the other side, a positive
way to end poverty. You're doing... something
that every ordinary person in the country and
around the world can get involved in to literally
fulfill the scriptures and beat swords into plowshares.
Any thoughts on all of that? Yeah, well, the
easiest way to contact us to bring us to your
community, whether that's me or one of our other
affiliates who are near you, is to go to our
website at rawtools .org, rawtools .org. and
fill out the form about having an event, or you
could just send an email to our info at rawtools
.org and ask any question you want. I love having
dialogue. In fact, I'd rather be doing that than
some of the other logistics of running an organization.
So reach out, go to our website, whatever the
contact us info is on there, send us a snail
mail if you want to also. Give us a call. Happy
to talk. And and honestly, from there, it's that
compounding hope that I talked about. There's
there's an addictive element to this that I think
feeds into Gandhi's idea of the constructive
programs that says, you know, this churches and
right now, social justice work within gun violence
prevention tends to be testifying. These are
needed to these are necessary testifying. you
know, at public hearings for laws to be passed
or writing your representatives and urging them
to vote certain ways. That all can get so tiring
and exhausting, especially if you live in different
places where that can fall on deaf ears. And
so doing this programming tends to elicit people
to say, okay, what's next? So they might host
a gun to garden tool transformation event. And
then we're like, okay, we love this. What's next
after that? How do I learn? How do I teach my
church nonviolence? Can you do a workshop on
that? Can we host an event that people can destroy
firearms? Or can we become a church in your network
that you connect people to when people in our
community want their firearms destroyed? How
can we kind of lead into that prophetic witness?
And then they were like, well, I want to teach
some other, I want to be the one to be. teaching
in my community. So it just compounds itself.
So be careful what you wish for when you contact
us, because we will pull you in. And it's such
a joy to work with folks who continue to take
the next step in being that voice of nonviolence.
Thank you, Mike. Is there anything else you'd
like to say before we end? Maybe that's a good
note to end on. Yeah, feel free to, if you're
new to what we do, check out the book, Beating
Guns. There's also a great new book, children's
book that my wife co -wrote called Sparking Peace
that helps you do that with kids. It's a children's
book. So there are great, there's so many different
entry points to how you might work with us and
go to our website. to start that. And please
be in contact with us if you want to find out
more. Well, thank you so much, Mike Martin of
rawtools .org for speaking with me today. And
friends, thanks so much for listening to this
episode of the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. You
can hear more podcasts and find other upcoming
Zoom programs at www .beatitudescenter .org.
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See you next time.