Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm
John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking
with longtime activist and church worker Wes
Granberg -Michelson. This is a project of www
.beatitudecenter .org, where you can find many
other podcasts and regular Zoom programs on the
nonviolence of Jesus and practicing nonviolence
and working for a more just, more nonviolent
world. So let's begin as we always do here at
the podcast with a little prayer. So I invite
you wherever you are just to take a deep breath
and to relax. Notice how you're feeling and let's
recenter ourselves. And I invite you to enter
into the presence of the God of peace who loves
you infinitely and personally and wildly and
everyone everywhere. And let's welcome the risen
nonviolent Jesus here with us. And take a moment
to ask for whatever grace you need to follow
him more faithfully and to do God's will. God
of peace, thank you for all the blessings of
life, love, and peace that you give us. Be with
us now as we reflect together on your call. to
follow the nonviolent Jesus and work for a more
nonviolent, more just world. Bless us, inspire
us, heal us, disarm us, strengthen us, and send
us out to do your will, to do our part to help
end poverty, racism, corporate greed, systemic
injustice, war, nuclear weapons, genocide, fascism,
environmental destruction, and all systems of
violence, that we might be your beatitude people.
your holy peacemakers, and welcome your reign
of universal love, gospel nonviolence, and peace
on earth. In Jesus' name, amen. Well, it's a
great blessing to welcome Wes Granberg -Michelson
to speak with us today about his beautiful new
book called The Soul Work of Justice, Four Movements
for Contemplative Action, which is just out from
Orbis Books. Wes is a writer, speaker, and global
ecumenical leader working at the intersection
of faith, justice, and public life. He began
as an assistant to a kind of legendary senator
from Oregon called Mark Hatfield in the 70s and
80s. I certainly remembered him. And then he
worked with... Jim Wallace and Sojourners magazine,
especially with their board for many, many years,
and then was the director of Church and Society
for the World Council of Churches, and now serves
on the board of the Global Christian Forum and
lives with his wife Karen in Santa Fe, New Mexico.
You can read all about Wes and find out more
about his book at his website, www .wesgm .com.
I'm going to spell that for you, W -E -S -G -M
.com. So welcome, Wes, to the Nonviolent Jesus
Podcast. No, thank you, John. It's wonderful
to be with you. I've so long admired your work
and your witness, and this is a real privilege.
Well, thanks, Wes, and congratulations on your...
beautiful new book for Orbis called The Soul
Work of Justice, Four Movements for Contemplative
Action. And I thought we'd just dive into the
book, Wes. I mean, I'd love to hear more about
your story and maybe we can all do that someday.
But, you know, I'm very close with the publisher
of Orbis and he was telling me about you. And
I, you know. I couldn't believe that you kept
a daily journal for over 50 years. And I have
done the same. And, you know, I think you're
the only person I know, certainly the only church
person I know has done that. I've been doing
that since the 70s, since I was at Duke. Oh,
wow. Yeah. I'm taking medication. That's a bad
joke. But anyway. So you then, during COVID,
you went back and reread all your journals, and
you said you noticed these four movements that
sustained you in your faith and activism, and
that led to the book. And I thought, wow, that's
very lovely and brilliant. And here we are. The
collapse of the nation and the world, the end
of democracy, and it seems the collapsing of
the churches in so many quarters and love itself.
And a need for everyone to kind of recommit to
the long haul work of justice and discernment
and creation and peace and the gospel of Jesus
more than ever. And you're saying that after
your lifetime, you discovered that you were practicing.
Four movements of what you call soul work. So
tell us briefly about all that led to the book.
And then what are these four movements? And then
I'll ask you about each one of them. Great. Well,
thanks, John. And you described so well the situation
that we're now in. And I think it really calls
for us. to ground and root ourselves in the gospel
that we know and in the love in which we believe
to make that real. I mean, there's all kinds
of external action we need to take, but I'm convinced
that that has to be rooted in this deep inner
work. And I partly discovered that in my own
journal and in the journey that I did. I think...
You know, I discovered journaling when I was
at Church of the Savior in Washington, D .C.,
which an ecumenical small church that stressed
the inward journey and the outward journey always
be integrated together. And frankly, that's where
I ran into some of the practices that you know
well from the Catholic contemplative tradition,
practices that really Ask you to look inward
and use that as a way for how you look and work
outward. For me, a journal is simply a place
where I could process the pain and the grace
in my life. And I found that really helpful to
do. And yes, I started keeping it when I was.
Working with Mark Hatfield in the middle of the
anti -war movement and then onward through the
other external callings, I kept returning to
places of retreat and places that could nurture
my desire to look inward and to make sure I kind
of knew what was going on and that I could. I
could kind of test myself and my own relationship
to God in the midst of all that I felt I was
called to do. So that led me to, as you said,
during COVID, what actually happened is that
my wife and I were sitting in our home in Santa
Fe. She looked up at all these journals on the
bookshelf and said, what are you ever going to
do with those? And I said, I don't have any idea.
And she said, why don't you read through them
all? And maybe there's something we could pass
on to our two kids. So I, like you say, I started
reading through them. It took me a year. And
then, yeah, I developed, well, yeah, I wanted
to give this to our two kids, but there was a
lot more. And I felt in my journey, at least,
there was a movement, first of all, from self
-sufficiency to belonging. We could unpack each
of these, but that was kind of the first one.
The second, from certainty, meaning from rational
certainty, you know, I know this, to spiritual
connection, to more experiential way of connecting
to God and to life. And then the third was from
grandiosity to authenticity, from a life that
still revolves around the ego to a life where
you really discover your true self. And then
finally, from control to trust, from this obsession
to sort of plan and strategize and control to
a posture where we really learn that we can live
in a stance of trust. Now, you know, I don't
want to say those are like, you know, platonic
categories or immutable things. But for me, those
are the movements that I found helpful. And as
I've shared with others, I think they... help
give a way of reflecting a bit about where we
are in our journey. Thank you, Wes. Because frankly,
yeah. I mean, I just think self -sufficiency,
certainty, grandiosity, and control are kind
of the dominant traits in our culture, and I
think they keep us imprisoned. Wow. See, you
know, I was seeing that in your book, and I couldn't
believe it because I don't know about our age
difference, but I kind of had the same experience
during COVID. And I have a new book coming out
with Orbis as well, with many of the same things.
Because self -sufficiency, certainty, grandiosity,
and control, those are my strong points, man.
Those are my best things. And they don't work.
And it's taken me a lifetime to realize that.
And so that's why I wanted to talk about it with
you. And my book is called Universal Love. And
I thought they were very, very creative, your
little four movements. So let's go through them
one by one. And you can just, you know, take
a couple of minutes and talk about each one in
general ways. The first you call from self -sufficiency
to belonging. And you write there about, it's
so lovely, so critical. And nobody's talking
about this. The crucible of emptiness and love.
And then belonging as our basic starting point,
that the starting point of life in our soul is
belonging to God, belonging to one another, belonging
to community, belonging to all of creation, I
suppose. Yep, yes, yep. Well, you know, the way
this happened, I was on a... five -week retreat
at a Trappist monastery. It was while I was working
for Hatfield. I took this time off because I
discovered life in a Trappist monastery and wanted
to take part. And they had this program. And
so I'm there. I'm living with the monks. I walk
into their library. I'm looking at books. And
on the bookshelf, there's a book that says Self
-Analysis by Karen Horney. She was a famous,
you know, psychologist. And so I pick it up,
and I start flipping through it, and I come to
a description of neurotic self -sufficiency.
Great. And I read this, and I just felt, oh,
my God, I've been had. You know, I'm reading
me. You know, I mean, I was a young guy. I was
doing a lot. I was really trusting in what I
could do. And the fact was that belonging, relationships,
community, things where I was really connected
to others, it was very threatening. But because
I was smart and because I was articulate and
so forth, I could easily fend that off until
I couldn't. And because, you know, all of us
at one point or another, we come to the end of
ourselves in various ways. And I came to recognize
that I simply couldn't go forward without a sense
of connection to others. And without, in my case,
it was a lot revolved around a kind of turbulent
relationship with Karin, who's now been my wife
for 50 years, and making that commitment and
understanding what prevented me from it the same
way towards community. And then ultimately, as
you say, John, it's belonging to God. What does
it really mean? Not to, you know, not to believe,
but to belong. And I think that experience also
connects us in a way that we belong through God's
love to all creation. And that opens up the pathway
to encounter the violence and the war and the
suffering that is a part, so much a part of our
life today. So rich. Just a little side question.
Both must be mutual friends of Henry now, and
you must have known Henry through surgery. Yes,
absolutely. So, I mean, this is a lot of Henry's
work and ministries, inviting people to belonging.
Did you get some of this from him, or you just
were on a parallel path? I mean, he was writing
about this, you know, back when you were discovering
him. He was. Yeah, I remember he wrote that little
book and talked about moving from hostility to
hospitality. Reaching out, yeah. Reaching out,
yeah. Really? Both my wife and I read Reaching
Out. We were very, very impacted. And yes, I
knew Henry. And we were, because at the time
when I was in Sojourners, he was coming around.
Yeah, right. It just reminds me of him. It's
such an important lesson for us all to move from
self -sufficiency to belonging. And maybe it's
interesting, you were talking about in the 70s,
and now here we are all this time later. So it
is a question of age and wisdom and the journey
and learning. That's the spiritual life. Okay,
your second movement, From Certainty to Connection.
Oh my gosh. So you're writing about discovering
faith after doubt. You have to unpack that. Experiencing
connection. You write about something so beautiful
called sacramental connection. And then I suppose
moving into, well, this is just so beautiful.
Permanent connection with God and living in the
sacred spaces. In my new book, I talk about,
well, it's too hard. being completely open to
God, but there are, you know, like we have a
connection, but most of us, there's something
blocking the connection. There are obstacles.
It's like one of their valves, their arteries
in their heart are blocked. And I didn't know
that my whole life. And the journey is full -on
open heart connection to God. So tell us about
Certainty to Connection. Well, it sounds to me,
John, like our books are interchangeable. I'll
really, really look forward to reading yours.
And I know we both enjoyed Robert Ellsberg so
much and just working with the folks at Orbis.
So that's a little commercial for them, but they
deserve it. Well, look, I think, you know, my
background was as a conservative evangelical.
That's how I was raised. And so rational certainty
was really important. And then I kind of moved
from there into the Reformed tradition. And there
again, you know, you got to put down what you
believe in these tight confessions and memorize
them and, you know, know that rationally this
is how we can be certain. And you can speak for
yourself the way this functions within the Catholic
community. But I'll tell you, just about everyone
that I've encountered in their spiritual journey,
this falls apart. And it may be through a tragedy.
It may be through just their own curiosity. It
may be through other traumatic events. But the
certainty we have begins to crumble. And then
we find ourselves at a really critical point.
There's all this stuff today about deconstruction,
you know. people in various places of deconstructing
their past faith. And the challenge is, well,
how do you put it back together? But I don't
think you get it back together unless you really
encounter the reality that faith and doubt are
together in a way that really works. And that
faith is not belief. There's a big difference
between belief and faith. Faith is much deeper.
And I think we're drawn at those points, not
to construct a better system of rational certainty.
You know, some people try to do that. I think
we're drawn to experiences of connection. And
they may be connection to nature, to God's creation.
They may be through connection to others. I think
often it comes in experiences. of the sacraments
and, you know, both narrowly or broadly. I really,
I really do believe in a kind of a sacramental
theology that, that allows us to be, allows us
to be really open and impacted by God's presence
in the ordinary things of life. And of course
that centers in the ordinary, ordinary things
of bread and wine and, and then, and then moves
out. You probably saw Conclave, that great movie.
And the movie, the price of the ticket is the
speech that the secretary of the bishops gives
at the beginning when the cardinals are going
to go into their conclave. And he warns about
a faith in which is ruled by certainty and in
which there is no doubt. I think that true faith
goes through that process beyond doubt that rejects
rational certainty, but clings and experiences
points of connection through which we are certain
in a whole different experiential way of who
we are before God and of God's presence with
us and in the world. My friend Richard Rohr,
you must know him too. Yes, I do. Decades ago,
I remember he was telling me about, I didn't
know what he was talking about, to be honest.
Because I was a young whippersnapper and he's
saying, John, it's permanent liminality. And
I'm going, uh -huh, okay. I don't know what.
But he's talking about where you're walking on
water. Every minute is walking on water like
Peter out to Jesus. There's no... That's why
I totally agree that the word belief is too complicated.
And even faith now I'm not using so much. It's
more like trust, but 100 % trust and surrender.
This is great, great themes. And that you were
working on them throughout your life in the journal
was very moving to me because I was trying to
change the world, but I wasn't doing this. And
I did a lot of inner work, but not. to this level,
I don't think. So then your third movement. What
you say, just like what you say about liminal
space and Richard, I just say the best example
of liminal space I ever heard is that when you
look at a trapeze artist and he or she is swinging
from one bar to another, there comes a point
where he or she lets go of the one bar and before
she grabs the other, that's liminal space. You
remember Henry Nouwen was going to write a great
book about that. He used to write me letters
about it. He didn't live to do that. Really?
Yeah. So he's saying the whole Christian life
is you're flying through the air. I didn't know.
No, but what he realized, because he became friends
with this Dutch circus group, like best friends,
and was that the flyer. We think you're going
to go out and catch the arms of the guy hanging.
If you do that, you break both your wrists. So
the flyer has to have his arms stretched out
and the catcher has to catch you. And if you
move, you're screwed. You'll die. You'll both
die. And God is the catcher. Henry just thought
that was the greatest image of the life of faith
and this liminality. I have not heard that. Isn't
that wonderful? That's perfect. A friend of ours
finished the book, kind of rewrote it, and I
forget the title. Yeah, but people can look it
up at henrynowen .net. Okay, so then you've got
a third movement. Also, my good strong point,
from grandiosity to authenticity, you write about
how pride can— develop into grandiosity. And
wow, we see that all over the country and all
over the world. I see it myself. And out of control
ego, self -centeredness. And I'm talking here
about church people, people who care, peace and
justice people. I mean, this is the problem with
the good religious authorities in the Gospels.
They ended up killing Jesus, but they are full
of themselves. And as we all are. And it's a
power trip and an ego trip. And that always leads
to a crash, you say, in that therefore strength
is found in weakness. And as Henry wrote, being
the beloved of God. And then you call us to living
authentically and humbly in our true self with
others and God. So walk us through grandiosity
to authenticity. Well, you really summarize it
well, John. I mean, you know, grandiosity is
just in the water in our culture, and particularly
in the political culture. And like you say, I
see this not just in the people like Trump, who's
probably the best clinical case of grandiosity
and what effect that has on the world, but I
see it. in those who are leading the movements
against Trump. And I see it in a lot of friends
who are great activists and in church leaders.
And I've unfortunately, I've witnessed those
whose unchecked grandiosity, it becomes highly
narcissistic and they've got all kinds of external
stuff that they feed off of. And it finally.
it finally results in disaster, disaster to them
personally or disaster to the movements that
they're leading. And for that reason, I just
think it's so important that we learn in the
midst of whatever we're doing externally to keep
asking, where am I discovering my true self?
And where am I really knowing that I'm beloved?
not because of anything I do, but because of
God's action to love me. And that transforms
how we can live. It's interesting. We've been
referring often to Henry now, and there's this
quote in the book that I've tried to live by.
He talks about what it means to be the beloved.
of course, is thinking of the son who returned
as the prodigal son to his father. And this whole
reflection came off of when he looked at Rembrandt's
painting of the prodigal son and wrote the whole
book about it. But he says this, as the beloved,
I can confront, console, admonish, and encourage
without fear of rejection or need of affirmation.
As the beloved, I can suffer persecution without
the desire for revenge and receive praise without
using it as a proof of my own goodness. I mean,
I say to folks, put that on your home screen.
Live by that. I mean, that's what it means to
try to be learning to live a life that's rooted
in authenticity. That's so beautiful, Wes. What
would be – the word authenticity is complicated
for me. What would be another way to say it?
You're saying the truth self, Merton. Truth self.
It's what Merton and others – Is there a gospel
phrase for that? A word in the gospels? Maybe
not. I don't know. Authenticity – I think we're
all broken. As Henry said, everybody is wounded.
So Henry was so – such a genius saying you're
either going to be a wounded wounder or a wounded
healer. And that's a conscious daily choice of
prayer. You know, I think that some of the gospel
or scriptural images that refer to becoming a
true son, a true daughter. Yeah, the beloved.
You know, the beloved. I think that. that sort
of gets at it better. I mean, yeah, authenticity,
you know what I'm after, but it also, that's
used a lot in kind of secular psychological ways.
And if you talk about... Living as the beloved,
you know, in the Orthodox tradition, it really
means living into the inheritance of what it
means to have God within us. Well, and Jesus,
I mean, if anyone should have practiced grandiosity,
it was him. And he says in Luke, I'm gentle and
humble of heart. Yeah. It's shocking. He's so
gentle and humble. That would not be a way to
describe my way I've operated. This is such an
indictment for me as I'm listening to you. But
it's a grace because I've gone through the same
thing through the pandemic of really trying to
break through. I do think it's a question of
age. As a friend told me recently, getting older,
we get a little wiser maybe. And maybe we're
forced into humility. I think it is, too. I think
there's one other thing I've thought a bit about,
John. You know, you and I were both kind of active
early in that time in the 70s and now. And, you
know, there are parallels externally to the kind
of threat and breakdown and corporate evil that
we saw then and that we see now. And I think
that, you know, maybe. We think back to how we
responded then and then can put it into a better
perspective of what we might be able to do now.
And for some of us who are at this point in our
journey, that might resonate. So beautiful. Well,
calling us to live authentically and humbly as
our true selves with others. Then you talk about
a fourth movement of your life. which is also
another way of saying the same thing. It's so
powerful. From control to trust, another way
of describing, I think, the spiritual crisis.
It's not just a political crisis in the country
or the churches. It's ultimately a spiritual
crisis. We all want to be in control. The church
is in control, and it's another way of ego. I'm
in control. Therefore, God, by the way, you know,
you're really nice, and Jesus, I really like
you, but I got this covered. I'm in charge. I'm
doing it. So you call it the illusion of control.
That's kind of controlling us all. And we all
try to control everything. And, you know, my
whole life I've worked for peace. And I was facing
20 years in jail, prison, Wes. And I was in control.
And so, you know, I'm like, God, I got this down.
I don't really need you. But I think. I'm serving
God. And then I think, and maybe you write this,
do we really want God? The inevitable path, painful
path, you call us to, of relinquishing full control
to God. That's really the spiritual journey,
learning to let God run our lives. And that's
trusting God. That's why I wanted to have you
on, because that's where I've been at the last
five years, trying to... change myself and move
into that. So talk, teach me all about that.
Well, you know, it's, you probably know David
White, his poetry. Yeah, I know David. Yeah.
I've never met him, but in this poem, what do
you remember upon waking? He has this one line
that I keep quoting. What you can plan is too
small for you to live. And I love that. I'm on
the board of our local Trout Unlimited chapter.
And we had a meeting last night and we had a
really, you know, earnest person gave a good
presentation about their strategic plan. And,
you know, I've just given up on strategic plans
because I think we, you know, we think in a secular
way. You plan, you strategize, you control, you
get measurable outcomes, and that's how you do
it. Then we kind of imply that in our own spiritual,
personal life as well. The fact is that just
external events, take COVID, take the murder
of George Floyd, take the raging forest fires
in this part of the country, take so many events
that we could never plan that totally wipe out.
our ability to think that we're in control. And
that's kind of a metaphor for, I think, what
happens in our own personal lives as well. It's,
I don't know, you know, there are lots of ways
to think about it, but Meister Eichart has one
line that says, God only asks that you get out
of God's way and let God be God in you. I like
that a lot. To get to a point. of trust where
we really recognize that we we kind of relinquish
our ability to think we are the masters that
we are the ones who can make everything happen
which is so ingrained within our culture and
to be at the point where we are resilient because
we're looking for grace. We're looking for where
God breaks through. We're looking for what God
seems to already be doing and moving. And then
we try to simply participate in that. And of
course, there's no better time to think about
that than Advent as we begin to approach. It's
so rich what the shocking breakthrough. Embarrassing.
I shouldn't tell on myself, but it's humiliating
that during the COVID was I realized, wow, if
I let go of control and God runs the show, things
turn out better. You know, I think I know better
than God. Now, I used to say I am 99%. Surrender
to God. Isn't that impressive, Wes? Even if that
were true, which it isn't, it's baloney because
that 1%, I'm hanging by on the limb, you know,
and I'm in charge. I'm not letting go and letting
God. Now, so my practice, you know. That's why
my whole new book is about surrendering and doing
God's will. And I've written about it so much.
Not my will, your will be done. And I was walking
up in Big Sur with my spiritual director, monk
friend, and I said, hey, you know, I think that's
the only prayer. Really, in the end, it's the
Lord's prayer. It's Gethsemane. It's what Mary
says to the angel. Not my, whatever God wants.
That's all I'm about. And my friend goes, oh,
yeah, well, I. We were walking, and he didn't
even look up. He said, oh, I say that at least
a thousand times a day. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, and
well, if you're a hermit in Big Sur, you will.
But it was very powerful. And another angle,
and I'd like you to say more about this, but
Jesus kind of says this. He's modeling this for
us in John's Gospel, where he says, Which I never
understood this sentence, but I can do nothing
on my own. Yeah. And I think that means if I
am totally, he's teaching us how to be a human
being. If you're totally self -sufficient and
in control, your life is a disaster. But if you
surrender everything 100 % to God and let God
use you. And you're not coming up with a five
-year plan or one -year plan, a plan for tomorrow.
But you're going to say, hey, God, if you want
to even use me to help get rid of nuclear weapons
or whatever, fine. I give you permission. All
these miracles will happen. And I've known so
many saints who've done that, and they were trying
to tell. Daniel Bergen tried to tell me this
for 30 years, and I didn't know what he was talking
about. So say more about all this. Well, and
I think it's, yeah, I think it's really relevant
to what you've given so much leadership to, John,
around the nonviolent call, the nonviolent Jesus.
You see, I think that we can't get to that real
point of a nonviolent witness if we aren't dealing
exactly with self -sufficiency, certainty, grandiosity
and control. And I think that we see in Jesus.
in his call to love our enemies and then in the
way he laid down his life and the way he poured
out his love uh we see a real example and you
know you could you can be called you've dealt
with this your whole life and witness john and
you know people can be called to non -violence
out of a philosophy out of an ideology or they
can look to inspiring examples but if you're
going to live In a nonviolent witness, I think
you have to live at the point of belonging and
connection and relinquishment. Because that's,
I mean, that's really what it's all about. I
totally agree. And why did it take my whole life
to learn this? I guess, again, I'm going to keep
giving thanks and saying it's a grace that I
finally... God is getting through to me or trying
to. So the word I've been using is surrender
in my new book. You use relinquishment. So it's
all these things, breaking that down. It is.
But to our listeners, what you all don't know
is that Wes and I had the same spiritual director.
For me, Wes. It was like 15 years in New Mexico,
and he was a total saint. Brother Joe, I'll just
say that. And Joe, Wes, just laugh. I'd see him
once a month for 15 years, and he's trying to
teach me to let go. And he keeps saying, John,
the whole journey is kenosis, Jesus' self -emptying
love. And I go, huh? You know, and now it's all
so clear to me. So I said to Jim, now my other
really great friend was Reverend Jim Lawson,
who was a great strategist and thinker of the
civil rights movement, one of Dr. King's best
friends, up until he died. And he died, I guess,
a year or two ago. And shortly before he died,
I called him. I said, you're getting to know
me, Wes. I was like, Jim, I figured it out. Nonviolence
requires total surrender to God. You can't be
nonviolent if you think you're in control and
self -sufficient and you're in charge. You have
to let God be in charge. And he goes, wow, I
never knew that. And of course. He died. And
then a couple months later, I found a quote from
Martin Luther King, where Martin King said, around
66, nonviolence requires total surrender to God.
Of course, Dr. King knew all of that. So expand
on this, and then we'll end with your eight points
about kenosis. Because nobody talks about Jesus'
self -emptying love. The cross is political.
It's resistance. Absolutely. But it's also total
inner letting go and trusting God can use this
disaster. Well, you know, I think, yes, I think
in the cross, what you see is that the experiences
of deepest trauma and pain and even death are
accompanied mysteriously with this. faithful,
flowing out love of God, and that that's really
what we see happening there, and it gets translated
into our lived experience, and I think gets translated
into our historical encounters, how we try to
witness in the world. I think that people are
called, finally, to examples of those. who have
learned to live this way and you know when you
think of the people whom we cite or even go back
in history you know whether it's saint francis
or other you know other real leaders or one one
example i often like to cite is dog homershield
this famous secretary general of the un who's
dealing with all this peacemaking work and he
dies and turns out he kept a journal It was published
as markings, and W .H. Auden wrote the intro,
and here you find a life that is shaped by readings
and influences by people like Meister Eckhart
and many others, and you suddenly see, yes, this
person was also living at that level. And one
way or another, it does all go back to the example
of Jesus, who on that last night, simply poured
himself out and washed the feet and gave himself
all over and said that prayer that you just said,
John, not my will but thine be done. You know,
we've gotten so captured by either the individual
friend who is Jesus or the all -powerful. You
know, Jesus, who was king, like next Sunday's
Christ, the king Sunday. And that's always a
little bit problematic. I think the real message,
the real model of Jesus is this one whose whole
life embodies this constant, outflowing, bounderless
love of God. He's living in that love. That's
so beautiful. Well, we're really out of time.
And you end in the book with, you call them eight
roots to ground our work for justice. And I'd
like you to read them and then just offer any
other concluding thoughts and we'll end. And
I loved these. They're kind of your lessons of
soul work for the work of justice. At the end
of all this, I kind of thought, well, if you're
an activist like we are, and you read this, well,
what can I learn? What should guide me? Well,
this is what I think. Number one, you know that
this world belongs to God. This is God's world.
Number two, you know that your engagement with
the world has a spiritual foundation. In other
words, you're not just reacting around ideology
and politics. It really is deeper. Three, you
act on the basis of call. You're not acting out
of like, what's the most urgent? No, what are
you deeply called to? I mean, the way a person
like Archbishop Wester, he knows he's called
to an anti -nuclear witness. Fourth, your action
is steadfast and committed to the long term.
You're in touch with the flow of God's love into
the world, and that's going to keep you going.
And five comes from that. You display resilience.
It's not in planning and control, but it's in
our ability to have the inner strength and discernment
to respond. Fifth, you are detached from your
ego. I like one definition of prayers. Prayer
is detachment from the fruit of your actions.
You know, it's not about you. And then seventh,
you don't demonize your opponents. That's frankly,
John, that's one of the hardest ones for me.
But if you really believe what we say about the
image of God, you get around, you get beyond
binary thinking. You don't demonize your opponents.
And finally. you are rooted and grounded in love.
It's that passage from Ephesians 3 that is so,
I think, important to me, that the love that
is so spacious, so beyond knowledge, but it is
to captivate our inner being. Wow. Well, thank
you so much, Wes Granberg -Michelson, for speaking
with me today. And I urge everyone to get his
beautiful new book, The Soul Work of Justice.
And thank you, friends, for listening to this
episode of the Nonviolent Jesus. podcast. You
can hear many more podcasts and other upcoming
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Keep on following the nonviolent Jesus. See you
all next time.