WEBVTT 00:00:14.730 --> 00:00:17.609 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:17.609 --> 00:00:20.210 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:20.210 --> 00:00:23.769 with longtime activist and church worker Wes 00:00:23.769 --> 00:00:27.250 Granberg -Michelson. This is a project of www 00:00:27.250 --> 00:00:31.730 .beatitudecenter .org, where you can find many 00:00:31.730 --> 00:00:35.090 other podcasts and regular Zoom programs on the 00:00:35.090 --> 00:00:37.969 nonviolence of Jesus and practicing nonviolence 00:00:37.969 --> 00:00:40.869 and working for a more just, more nonviolent 00:00:40.869 --> 00:00:44.329 world. So let's begin as we always do here at 00:00:44.329 --> 00:00:47.789 the podcast with a little prayer. So I invite 00:00:47.789 --> 00:00:50.189 you wherever you are just to take a deep breath 00:00:50.189 --> 00:00:54.869 and to relax. Notice how you're feeling and let's 00:00:54.869 --> 00:00:58.850 recenter ourselves. And I invite you to enter 00:00:58.850 --> 00:01:01.590 into the presence of the God of peace who loves 00:01:01.590 --> 00:01:05.209 you infinitely and personally and wildly and 00:01:05.209 --> 00:01:08.349 everyone everywhere. And let's welcome the risen 00:01:08.349 --> 00:01:12.409 nonviolent Jesus here with us. And take a moment 00:01:12.409 --> 00:01:14.650 to ask for whatever grace you need to follow 00:01:14.650 --> 00:01:23.310 him more faithfully and to do God's will. God 00:01:23.310 --> 00:01:25.849 of peace, thank you for all the blessings of 00:01:25.849 --> 00:01:29.409 life, love, and peace that you give us. Be with 00:01:29.409 --> 00:01:32.950 us now as we reflect together on your call. to 00:01:32.950 --> 00:01:35.810 follow the nonviolent Jesus and work for a more 00:01:35.810 --> 00:01:39.409 nonviolent, more just world. Bless us, inspire 00:01:39.409 --> 00:01:43.629 us, heal us, disarm us, strengthen us, and send 00:01:43.629 --> 00:01:46.590 us out to do your will, to do our part to help 00:01:46.590 --> 00:01:50.409 end poverty, racism, corporate greed, systemic 00:01:50.409 --> 00:01:54.989 injustice, war, nuclear weapons, genocide, fascism, 00:01:55.030 --> 00:01:57.390 environmental destruction, and all systems of 00:01:57.390 --> 00:02:00.530 violence, that we might be your beatitude people. 00:02:01.579 --> 00:02:05.280 your holy peacemakers, and welcome your reign 00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:09.340 of universal love, gospel nonviolence, and peace 00:02:09.340 --> 00:02:13.139 on earth. In Jesus' name, amen. Well, it's a 00:02:13.139 --> 00:02:16.259 great blessing to welcome Wes Granberg -Michelson 00:02:16.259 --> 00:02:19.599 to speak with us today about his beautiful new 00:02:19.599 --> 00:02:23.759 book called The Soul Work of Justice, Four Movements 00:02:23.759 --> 00:02:27.599 for Contemplative Action, which is just out from 00:02:27.599 --> 00:02:31.449 Orbis Books. Wes is a writer, speaker, and global 00:02:31.449 --> 00:02:33.830 ecumenical leader working at the intersection 00:02:33.830 --> 00:02:37.669 of faith, justice, and public life. He began 00:02:37.669 --> 00:02:41.189 as an assistant to a kind of legendary senator 00:02:41.189 --> 00:02:44.590 from Oregon called Mark Hatfield in the 70s and 00:02:44.590 --> 00:02:48.129 80s. I certainly remembered him. And then he 00:02:48.129 --> 00:02:51.750 worked with... Jim Wallace and Sojourners magazine, 00:02:52.150 --> 00:02:54.930 especially with their board for many, many years, 00:02:55.050 --> 00:02:57.569 and then was the director of Church and Society 00:02:57.569 --> 00:03:01.009 for the World Council of Churches, and now serves 00:03:01.009 --> 00:03:03.949 on the board of the Global Christian Forum and 00:03:03.949 --> 00:03:06.810 lives with his wife Karen in Santa Fe, New Mexico. 00:03:07.719 --> 00:03:09.740 You can read all about Wes and find out more 00:03:09.740 --> 00:03:15.240 about his book at his website, www .wesgm .com. 00:03:15.340 --> 00:03:18.500 I'm going to spell that for you, W -E -S -G -M 00:03:18.500 --> 00:03:22.199 .com. So welcome, Wes, to the Nonviolent Jesus 00:03:22.199 --> 00:03:25.599 Podcast. No, thank you, John. It's wonderful 00:03:25.599 --> 00:03:29.979 to be with you. I've so long admired your work 00:03:29.979 --> 00:03:32.460 and your witness, and this is a real privilege. 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:35.500 Well, thanks, Wes, and congratulations on your... 00:03:35.759 --> 00:03:38.680 beautiful new book for Orbis called The Soul 00:03:38.680 --> 00:03:41.780 Work of Justice, Four Movements for Contemplative 00:03:41.780 --> 00:03:44.680 Action. And I thought we'd just dive into the 00:03:44.680 --> 00:03:47.060 book, Wes. I mean, I'd love to hear more about 00:03:47.060 --> 00:03:50.379 your story and maybe we can all do that someday. 00:03:50.840 --> 00:03:55.120 But, you know, I'm very close with the publisher 00:03:55.120 --> 00:03:58.139 of Orbis and he was telling me about you. And 00:03:58.139 --> 00:04:02.939 I, you know. I couldn't believe that you kept 00:04:02.939 --> 00:04:06.300 a daily journal for over 50 years. And I have 00:04:06.300 --> 00:04:08.599 done the same. And, you know, I think you're 00:04:08.599 --> 00:04:10.919 the only person I know, certainly the only church 00:04:10.919 --> 00:04:12.599 person I know has done that. I've been doing 00:04:12.599 --> 00:04:14.840 that since the 70s, since I was at Duke. Oh, 00:04:14.840 --> 00:04:19.459 wow. Yeah. I'm taking medication. That's a bad 00:04:19.459 --> 00:04:24.589 joke. But anyway. So you then, during COVID, 00:04:24.930 --> 00:04:28.850 you went back and reread all your journals, and 00:04:28.850 --> 00:04:31.670 you said you noticed these four movements that 00:04:31.670 --> 00:04:34.910 sustained you in your faith and activism, and 00:04:34.910 --> 00:04:37.870 that led to the book. And I thought, wow, that's 00:04:37.870 --> 00:04:43.860 very lovely and brilliant. And here we are. The 00:04:43.860 --> 00:04:46.199 collapse of the nation and the world, the end 00:04:46.199 --> 00:04:49.220 of democracy, and it seems the collapsing of 00:04:49.220 --> 00:04:51.879 the churches in so many quarters and love itself. 00:04:52.519 --> 00:04:57.139 And a need for everyone to kind of recommit to 00:04:57.139 --> 00:05:00.199 the long haul work of justice and discernment 00:05:00.199 --> 00:05:03.699 and creation and peace and the gospel of Jesus 00:05:03.699 --> 00:05:06.480 more than ever. And you're saying that after 00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:09.980 your lifetime, you discovered that you were practicing. 00:05:10.920 --> 00:05:14.879 Four movements of what you call soul work. So 00:05:14.879 --> 00:05:18.800 tell us briefly about all that led to the book. 00:05:18.899 --> 00:05:23.180 And then what are these four movements? And then 00:05:23.180 --> 00:05:25.959 I'll ask you about each one of them. Great. Well, 00:05:26.040 --> 00:05:29.759 thanks, John. And you described so well the situation 00:05:29.759 --> 00:05:33.720 that we're now in. And I think it really calls 00:05:33.720 --> 00:05:38.670 for us. to ground and root ourselves in the gospel 00:05:38.670 --> 00:05:42.209 that we know and in the love in which we believe 00:05:42.209 --> 00:05:45.310 to make that real. I mean, there's all kinds 00:05:45.310 --> 00:05:48.389 of external action we need to take, but I'm convinced 00:05:48.389 --> 00:05:51.689 that that has to be rooted in this deep inner 00:05:51.689 --> 00:05:54.930 work. And I partly discovered that in my own 00:05:54.930 --> 00:05:59.930 journal and in the journey that I did. I think... 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:02.839 You know, I discovered journaling when I was 00:06:02.839 --> 00:06:05.240 at Church of the Savior in Washington, D .C., 00:06:05.240 --> 00:06:08.620 which an ecumenical small church that stressed 00:06:08.620 --> 00:06:12.579 the inward journey and the outward journey always 00:06:12.579 --> 00:06:16.579 be integrated together. And frankly, that's where 00:06:16.579 --> 00:06:19.519 I ran into some of the practices that you know 00:06:19.519 --> 00:06:23.259 well from the Catholic contemplative tradition, 00:06:23.420 --> 00:06:29.519 practices that really Ask you to look inward 00:06:29.519 --> 00:06:34.439 and use that as a way for how you look and work 00:06:34.439 --> 00:06:39.579 outward. For me, a journal is simply a place 00:06:39.579 --> 00:06:42.800 where I could process the pain and the grace 00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:46.699 in my life. And I found that really helpful to 00:06:46.699 --> 00:06:51.199 do. And yes, I started keeping it when I was. 00:06:51.519 --> 00:06:53.560 Working with Mark Hatfield in the middle of the 00:06:53.560 --> 00:06:56.399 anti -war movement and then onward through the 00:06:56.399 --> 00:07:00.040 other external callings, I kept returning to 00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:04.600 places of retreat and places that could nurture 00:07:04.600 --> 00:07:10.579 my desire to look inward and to make sure I kind 00:07:10.579 --> 00:07:14.000 of knew what was going on and that I could. I 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:16.860 could kind of test myself and my own relationship 00:07:16.860 --> 00:07:20.899 to God in the midst of all that I felt I was 00:07:20.899 --> 00:07:26.180 called to do. So that led me to, as you said, 00:07:26.259 --> 00:07:29.540 during COVID, what actually happened is that 00:07:29.540 --> 00:07:32.199 my wife and I were sitting in our home in Santa 00:07:32.199 --> 00:07:35.519 Fe. She looked up at all these journals on the 00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:36.959 bookshelf and said, what are you ever going to 00:07:36.959 --> 00:07:40.259 do with those? And I said, I don't have any idea. 00:07:41.069 --> 00:07:42.689 And she said, why don't you read through them 00:07:42.689 --> 00:07:44.569 all? And maybe there's something we could pass 00:07:44.569 --> 00:07:50.230 on to our two kids. So I, like you say, I started 00:07:50.230 --> 00:07:52.529 reading through them. It took me a year. And 00:07:52.529 --> 00:07:54.889 then, yeah, I developed, well, yeah, I wanted 00:07:54.889 --> 00:07:56.750 to give this to our two kids, but there was a 00:07:56.750 --> 00:08:00.269 lot more. And I felt in my journey, at least, 00:08:00.310 --> 00:08:04.290 there was a movement, first of all, from self 00:08:04.290 --> 00:08:08.939 -sufficiency to belonging. We could unpack each 00:08:08.939 --> 00:08:11.100 of these, but that was kind of the first one. 00:08:11.139 --> 00:08:14.439 The second, from certainty, meaning from rational 00:08:14.439 --> 00:08:17.899 certainty, you know, I know this, to spiritual 00:08:17.899 --> 00:08:22.399 connection, to more experiential way of connecting 00:08:22.399 --> 00:08:26.779 to God and to life. And then the third was from 00:08:26.779 --> 00:08:32.000 grandiosity to authenticity, from a life that 00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:34.639 still revolves around the ego to a life where 00:08:34.639 --> 00:08:37.789 you really discover your true self. And then 00:08:37.789 --> 00:08:43.889 finally, from control to trust, from this obsession 00:08:43.889 --> 00:08:47.450 to sort of plan and strategize and control to 00:08:47.450 --> 00:08:50.330 a posture where we really learn that we can live 00:08:50.330 --> 00:08:53.809 in a stance of trust. Now, you know, I don't 00:08:53.809 --> 00:08:57.029 want to say those are like, you know, platonic 00:08:57.029 --> 00:09:01.169 categories or immutable things. But for me, those 00:09:01.169 --> 00:09:04.429 are the movements that I found helpful. And as 00:09:04.429 --> 00:09:06.629 I've shared with others, I think they... help 00:09:06.629 --> 00:09:11.549 give a way of reflecting a bit about where we 00:09:11.549 --> 00:09:13.389 are in our journey. Thank you, Wes. Because frankly, 00:09:13.570 --> 00:09:16.429 yeah. I mean, I just think self -sufficiency, 00:09:16.529 --> 00:09:19.610 certainty, grandiosity, and control are kind 00:09:19.610 --> 00:09:21.590 of the dominant traits in our culture, and I 00:09:21.590 --> 00:09:24.990 think they keep us imprisoned. Wow. See, you 00:09:24.990 --> 00:09:27.590 know, I was seeing that in your book, and I couldn't 00:09:27.590 --> 00:09:31.289 believe it because I don't know about our age 00:09:31.289 --> 00:09:33.610 difference, but I kind of had the same experience 00:09:33.610 --> 00:09:37.129 during COVID. And I have a new book coming out 00:09:37.129 --> 00:09:41.070 with Orbis as well, with many of the same things. 00:09:41.769 --> 00:09:44.850 Because self -sufficiency, certainty, grandiosity, 00:09:44.909 --> 00:09:47.389 and control, those are my strong points, man. 00:09:47.529 --> 00:09:51.690 Those are my best things. And they don't work. 00:09:52.149 --> 00:09:54.929 And it's taken me a lifetime to realize that. 00:09:55.149 --> 00:09:58.950 And so that's why I wanted to talk about it with 00:09:58.950 --> 00:10:02.740 you. And my book is called Universal Love. And 00:10:02.740 --> 00:10:06.000 I thought they were very, very creative, your 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:08.799 little four movements. So let's go through them 00:10:08.799 --> 00:10:11.940 one by one. And you can just, you know, take 00:10:11.940 --> 00:10:14.019 a couple of minutes and talk about each one in 00:10:14.019 --> 00:10:17.679 general ways. The first you call from self -sufficiency 00:10:17.679 --> 00:10:21.440 to belonging. And you write there about, it's 00:10:21.440 --> 00:10:24.519 so lovely, so critical. And nobody's talking 00:10:24.519 --> 00:10:28.320 about this. The crucible of emptiness and love. 00:10:28.940 --> 00:10:32.320 And then belonging as our basic starting point, 00:10:32.360 --> 00:10:36.039 that the starting point of life in our soul is 00:10:36.039 --> 00:10:39.700 belonging to God, belonging to one another, belonging 00:10:39.700 --> 00:10:43.399 to community, belonging to all of creation, I 00:10:43.399 --> 00:10:48.080 suppose. Yep, yes, yep. Well, you know, the way 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:54.580 this happened, I was on a... five -week retreat 00:10:54.580 --> 00:10:57.799 at a Trappist monastery. It was while I was working 00:10:57.799 --> 00:11:00.440 for Hatfield. I took this time off because I 00:11:00.440 --> 00:11:05.879 discovered life in a Trappist monastery and wanted 00:11:05.879 --> 00:11:09.519 to take part. And they had this program. And 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:12.620 so I'm there. I'm living with the monks. I walk 00:11:12.620 --> 00:11:15.480 into their library. I'm looking at books. And 00:11:15.480 --> 00:11:20.659 on the bookshelf, there's a book that says Self 00:11:20.659 --> 00:11:24.090 -Analysis by Karen Horney. She was a famous, 00:11:24.269 --> 00:11:27.610 you know, psychologist. And so I pick it up, 00:11:27.610 --> 00:11:30.309 and I start flipping through it, and I come to 00:11:30.309 --> 00:11:34.470 a description of neurotic self -sufficiency. 00:11:35.450 --> 00:11:40.269 Great. And I read this, and I just felt, oh, 00:11:40.309 --> 00:11:44.210 my God, I've been had. You know, I'm reading 00:11:44.210 --> 00:11:49.250 me. You know, I mean, I was a young guy. I was 00:11:49.250 --> 00:11:52.879 doing a lot. I was really trusting in what I 00:11:52.879 --> 00:12:00.419 could do. And the fact was that belonging, relationships, 00:12:00.919 --> 00:12:03.879 community, things where I was really connected 00:12:03.879 --> 00:12:07.480 to others, it was very threatening. But because 00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:10.059 I was smart and because I was articulate and 00:12:10.059 --> 00:12:14.940 so forth, I could easily fend that off until 00:12:14.940 --> 00:12:18.240 I couldn't. And because, you know, all of us 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:20.279 at one point or another, we come to the end of 00:12:20.279 --> 00:12:25.639 ourselves in various ways. And I came to recognize 00:12:25.639 --> 00:12:30.419 that I simply couldn't go forward without a sense 00:12:30.419 --> 00:12:35.360 of connection to others. And without, in my case, 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:39.539 it was a lot revolved around a kind of turbulent 00:12:39.539 --> 00:12:42.159 relationship with Karin, who's now been my wife 00:12:42.159 --> 00:12:45.480 for 50 years, and making that commitment and 00:12:45.480 --> 00:12:48.360 understanding what prevented me from it the same 00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:51.519 way towards community. And then ultimately, as 00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:53.899 you say, John, it's belonging to God. What does 00:12:53.899 --> 00:12:57.000 it really mean? Not to, you know, not to believe, 00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:02.549 but to belong. And I think that experience also 00:13:02.549 --> 00:13:07.710 connects us in a way that we belong through God's 00:13:07.710 --> 00:13:11.730 love to all creation. And that opens up the pathway 00:13:11.730 --> 00:13:15.250 to encounter the violence and the war and the 00:13:15.250 --> 00:13:18.070 suffering that is a part, so much a part of our 00:13:18.070 --> 00:13:22.769 life today. So rich. Just a little side question. 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:26.740 Both must be mutual friends of Henry now, and 00:13:26.740 --> 00:13:28.340 you must have known Henry through surgery. Yes, 00:13:28.340 --> 00:13:31.480 absolutely. So, I mean, this is a lot of Henry's 00:13:31.480 --> 00:13:34.700 work and ministries, inviting people to belonging. 00:13:35.139 --> 00:13:37.799 Did you get some of this from him, or you just 00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:40.879 were on a parallel path? I mean, he was writing 00:13:40.879 --> 00:13:43.740 about this, you know, back when you were discovering 00:13:43.740 --> 00:13:46.519 him. He was. Yeah, I remember he wrote that little 00:13:46.519 --> 00:13:50.019 book and talked about moving from hostility to 00:13:50.019 --> 00:13:52.080 hospitality. Reaching out, yeah. Reaching out, 00:13:52.159 --> 00:13:55.000 yeah. Really? Both my wife and I read Reaching 00:13:55.000 --> 00:13:58.659 Out. We were very, very impacted. And yes, I 00:13:58.659 --> 00:14:02.220 knew Henry. And we were, because at the time 00:14:02.220 --> 00:14:04.419 when I was in Sojourners, he was coming around. 00:14:04.840 --> 00:14:11.220 Yeah, right. It just reminds me of him. It's 00:14:11.220 --> 00:14:14.100 such an important lesson for us all to move from 00:14:14.100 --> 00:14:17.139 self -sufficiency to belonging. And maybe it's 00:14:17.139 --> 00:14:21.200 interesting, you were talking about in the 70s, 00:14:21.200 --> 00:14:23.320 and now here we are all this time later. So it 00:14:23.320 --> 00:14:27.399 is a question of age and wisdom and the journey 00:14:27.399 --> 00:14:29.759 and learning. That's the spiritual life. Okay, 00:14:29.820 --> 00:14:32.919 your second movement, From Certainty to Connection. 00:14:32.919 --> 00:14:35.759 Oh my gosh. So you're writing about discovering 00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:41.259 faith after doubt. You have to unpack that. Experiencing 00:14:41.259 --> 00:14:44.220 connection. You write about something so beautiful 00:14:44.220 --> 00:14:47.480 called sacramental connection. And then I suppose 00:14:47.480 --> 00:14:51.419 moving into, well, this is just so beautiful. 00:14:51.759 --> 00:14:55.120 Permanent connection with God and living in the 00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:58.179 sacred spaces. In my new book, I talk about, 00:14:58.379 --> 00:15:08.600 well, it's too hard. being completely open to 00:15:08.600 --> 00:15:11.580 God, but there are, you know, like we have a 00:15:11.580 --> 00:15:14.440 connection, but most of us, there's something 00:15:14.440 --> 00:15:16.419 blocking the connection. There are obstacles. 00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:20.419 It's like one of their valves, their arteries 00:15:20.419 --> 00:15:23.120 in their heart are blocked. And I didn't know 00:15:23.120 --> 00:15:26.919 that my whole life. And the journey is full -on 00:15:26.919 --> 00:15:29.779 open heart connection to God. So tell us about 00:15:29.779 --> 00:15:32.580 Certainty to Connection. Well, it sounds to me, 00:15:32.620 --> 00:15:36.879 John, like our books are interchangeable. I'll 00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:39.320 really, really look forward to reading yours. 00:15:39.419 --> 00:15:42.580 And I know we both enjoyed Robert Ellsberg so 00:15:42.580 --> 00:15:45.120 much and just working with the folks at Orbis. 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:47.039 So that's a little commercial for them, but they 00:15:47.039 --> 00:15:52.779 deserve it. Well, look, I think, you know, my 00:15:52.779 --> 00:15:54.759 background was as a conservative evangelical. 00:15:55.059 --> 00:15:57.659 That's how I was raised. And so rational certainty 00:15:57.659 --> 00:16:00.490 was really important. And then I kind of moved 00:16:00.490 --> 00:16:03.129 from there into the Reformed tradition. And there 00:16:03.129 --> 00:16:06.009 again, you know, you got to put down what you 00:16:06.009 --> 00:16:09.330 believe in these tight confessions and memorize 00:16:09.330 --> 00:16:13.610 them and, you know, know that rationally this 00:16:13.610 --> 00:16:17.970 is how we can be certain. And you can speak for 00:16:17.970 --> 00:16:20.009 yourself the way this functions within the Catholic 00:16:20.009 --> 00:16:24.049 community. But I'll tell you, just about everyone 00:16:24.049 --> 00:16:26.350 that I've encountered in their spiritual journey, 00:16:26.470 --> 00:16:29.559 this falls apart. And it may be through a tragedy. 00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:33.419 It may be through just their own curiosity. It 00:16:33.419 --> 00:16:36.279 may be through other traumatic events. But the 00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:40.659 certainty we have begins to crumble. And then 00:16:40.659 --> 00:16:43.320 we find ourselves at a really critical point. 00:16:43.899 --> 00:16:46.759 There's all this stuff today about deconstruction, 00:16:46.779 --> 00:16:50.460 you know. people in various places of deconstructing 00:16:50.460 --> 00:16:52.960 their past faith. And the challenge is, well, 00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:55.960 how do you put it back together? But I don't 00:16:55.960 --> 00:16:57.940 think you get it back together unless you really 00:16:57.940 --> 00:17:06.359 encounter the reality that faith and doubt are 00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:09.960 together in a way that really works. And that 00:17:09.960 --> 00:17:13.559 faith is not belief. There's a big difference 00:17:13.559 --> 00:17:17.500 between belief and faith. Faith is much deeper. 00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:22.680 And I think we're drawn at those points, not 00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:25.680 to construct a better system of rational certainty. 00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:27.579 You know, some people try to do that. I think 00:17:27.579 --> 00:17:31.579 we're drawn to experiences of connection. And 00:17:31.579 --> 00:17:34.420 they may be connection to nature, to God's creation. 00:17:34.740 --> 00:17:37.900 They may be through connection to others. I think 00:17:37.900 --> 00:17:42.680 often it comes in experiences. of the sacraments 00:17:42.680 --> 00:17:48.039 and, you know, both narrowly or broadly. I really, 00:17:48.140 --> 00:17:50.819 I really do believe in a kind of a sacramental 00:17:50.819 --> 00:17:56.579 theology that, that allows us to be, allows us 00:17:56.579 --> 00:18:00.299 to be really open and impacted by God's presence 00:18:00.299 --> 00:18:03.720 in the ordinary things of life. And of course 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:06.400 that centers in the ordinary, ordinary things 00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:08.940 of bread and wine and, and then, and then moves 00:18:08.940 --> 00:18:14.990 out. You probably saw Conclave, that great movie. 00:18:15.130 --> 00:18:19.569 And the movie, the price of the ticket is the 00:18:19.569 --> 00:18:23.069 speech that the secretary of the bishops gives 00:18:23.069 --> 00:18:27.150 at the beginning when the cardinals are going 00:18:27.150 --> 00:18:30.289 to go into their conclave. And he warns about 00:18:30.289 --> 00:18:34.549 a faith in which is ruled by certainty and in 00:18:34.549 --> 00:18:39.279 which there is no doubt. I think that true faith 00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:45.519 goes through that process beyond doubt that rejects 00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:49.579 rational certainty, but clings and experiences 00:18:49.579 --> 00:18:54.440 points of connection through which we are certain 00:18:54.440 --> 00:18:57.859 in a whole different experiential way of who 00:18:57.859 --> 00:19:00.460 we are before God and of God's presence with 00:19:00.460 --> 00:19:07.849 us and in the world. My friend Richard Rohr, 00:19:08.049 --> 00:19:11.630 you must know him too. Yes, I do. Decades ago, 00:19:11.750 --> 00:19:15.190 I remember he was telling me about, I didn't 00:19:15.190 --> 00:19:16.950 know what he was talking about, to be honest. 00:19:18.109 --> 00:19:20.309 Because I was a young whippersnapper and he's 00:19:20.309 --> 00:19:24.769 saying, John, it's permanent liminality. And 00:19:24.769 --> 00:19:27.210 I'm going, uh -huh, okay. I don't know what. 00:19:27.390 --> 00:19:30.269 But he's talking about where you're walking on 00:19:30.269 --> 00:19:33.269 water. Every minute is walking on water like 00:19:33.269 --> 00:19:36.990 Peter out to Jesus. There's no... That's why 00:19:36.990 --> 00:19:40.509 I totally agree that the word belief is too complicated. 00:19:40.869 --> 00:19:43.730 And even faith now I'm not using so much. It's 00:19:43.730 --> 00:19:47.730 more like trust, but 100 % trust and surrender. 00:19:49.329 --> 00:19:53.450 This is great, great themes. And that you were 00:19:53.450 --> 00:19:55.609 working on them throughout your life in the journal 00:19:55.609 --> 00:19:58.690 was very moving to me because I was trying to 00:19:58.690 --> 00:20:01.450 change the world, but I wasn't doing this. And 00:20:01.450 --> 00:20:04.809 I did a lot of inner work, but not. to this level, 00:20:04.890 --> 00:20:07.369 I don't think. So then your third movement. What 00:20:07.369 --> 00:20:09.230 you say, just like what you say about liminal 00:20:09.230 --> 00:20:12.670 space and Richard, I just say the best example 00:20:12.670 --> 00:20:16.410 of liminal space I ever heard is that when you 00:20:16.410 --> 00:20:20.569 look at a trapeze artist and he or she is swinging 00:20:20.569 --> 00:20:22.569 from one bar to another, there comes a point 00:20:22.569 --> 00:20:26.130 where he or she lets go of the one bar and before 00:20:26.130 --> 00:20:32.349 she grabs the other, that's liminal space. You 00:20:32.349 --> 00:20:34.529 remember Henry Nouwen was going to write a great 00:20:34.529 --> 00:20:36.349 book about that. He used to write me letters 00:20:36.349 --> 00:20:38.890 about it. He didn't live to do that. Really? 00:20:39.049 --> 00:20:42.369 Yeah. So he's saying the whole Christian life 00:20:42.369 --> 00:20:45.349 is you're flying through the air. I didn't know. 00:20:45.349 --> 00:20:48.150 No, but what he realized, because he became friends 00:20:48.150 --> 00:20:53.609 with this Dutch circus group, like best friends, 00:20:53.829 --> 00:20:58.529 and was that the flyer. We think you're going 00:20:58.529 --> 00:21:01.309 to go out and catch the arms of the guy hanging. 00:21:01.710 --> 00:21:04.910 If you do that, you break both your wrists. So 00:21:04.910 --> 00:21:07.930 the flyer has to have his arms stretched out 00:21:07.930 --> 00:21:12.009 and the catcher has to catch you. And if you 00:21:12.009 --> 00:21:15.710 move, you're screwed. You'll die. You'll both 00:21:15.710 --> 00:21:19.940 die. And God is the catcher. Henry just thought 00:21:19.940 --> 00:21:23.500 that was the greatest image of the life of faith 00:21:23.500 --> 00:21:26.819 and this liminality. I have not heard that. Isn't 00:21:26.819 --> 00:21:29.460 that wonderful? That's perfect. A friend of ours 00:21:29.460 --> 00:21:32.140 finished the book, kind of rewrote it, and I 00:21:32.140 --> 00:21:34.619 forget the title. Yeah, but people can look it 00:21:34.619 --> 00:21:37.640 up at henrynowen .net. Okay, so then you've got 00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:41.339 a third movement. Also, my good strong point, 00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:45.740 from grandiosity to authenticity, you write about 00:21:45.740 --> 00:21:50.700 how pride can— develop into grandiosity. And 00:21:50.700 --> 00:21:54.440 wow, we see that all over the country and all 00:21:54.440 --> 00:21:58.039 over the world. I see it myself. And out of control 00:21:58.039 --> 00:22:01.920 ego, self -centeredness. And I'm talking here 00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:05.119 about church people, people who care, peace and 00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:07.980 justice people. I mean, this is the problem with 00:22:07.980 --> 00:22:10.440 the good religious authorities in the Gospels. 00:22:10.519 --> 00:22:13.019 They ended up killing Jesus, but they are full 00:22:13.019 --> 00:22:18.319 of themselves. And as we all are. And it's a 00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:21.460 power trip and an ego trip. And that always leads 00:22:21.460 --> 00:22:24.440 to a crash, you say, in that therefore strength 00:22:24.440 --> 00:22:27.339 is found in weakness. And as Henry wrote, being 00:22:27.339 --> 00:22:32.839 the beloved of God. And then you call us to living 00:22:32.839 --> 00:22:36.640 authentically and humbly in our true self with 00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:39.900 others and God. So walk us through grandiosity 00:22:39.900 --> 00:22:44.819 to authenticity. Well, you really summarize it 00:22:44.819 --> 00:22:50.000 well, John. I mean, you know, grandiosity is 00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:52.319 just in the water in our culture, and particularly 00:22:52.319 --> 00:22:56.259 in the political culture. And like you say, I 00:22:56.259 --> 00:23:03.220 see this not just in the people like Trump, who's 00:23:03.220 --> 00:23:06.720 probably the best clinical case of grandiosity 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:10.180 and what effect that has on the world, but I 00:23:10.180 --> 00:23:14.720 see it. in those who are leading the movements 00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:17.880 against Trump. And I see it in a lot of friends 00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:22.079 who are great activists and in church leaders. 00:23:22.259 --> 00:23:25.240 And I've unfortunately, I've witnessed those 00:23:25.240 --> 00:23:30.680 whose unchecked grandiosity, it becomes highly 00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:34.299 narcissistic and they've got all kinds of external 00:23:34.299 --> 00:23:37.819 stuff that they feed off of. And it finally. 00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:41.920 it finally results in disaster, disaster to them 00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:44.519 personally or disaster to the movements that 00:23:44.519 --> 00:23:48.779 they're leading. And for that reason, I just 00:23:48.779 --> 00:23:53.500 think it's so important that we learn in the 00:23:53.500 --> 00:23:57.119 midst of whatever we're doing externally to keep 00:23:57.119 --> 00:24:01.160 asking, where am I discovering my true self? 00:24:01.319 --> 00:24:07.240 And where am I really knowing that I'm beloved? 00:24:07.960 --> 00:24:12.900 not because of anything I do, but because of 00:24:12.900 --> 00:24:19.779 God's action to love me. And that transforms 00:24:19.779 --> 00:24:24.940 how we can live. It's interesting. We've been 00:24:24.940 --> 00:24:27.779 referring often to Henry now, and there's this 00:24:27.779 --> 00:24:30.839 quote in the book that I've tried to live by. 00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:34.339 He talks about what it means to be the beloved. 00:24:35.420 --> 00:24:39.500 of course, is thinking of the son who returned 00:24:39.500 --> 00:24:43.279 as the prodigal son to his father. And this whole 00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:46.319 reflection came off of when he looked at Rembrandt's 00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:49.720 painting of the prodigal son and wrote the whole 00:24:49.720 --> 00:24:53.099 book about it. But he says this, as the beloved, 00:24:53.359 --> 00:24:57.740 I can confront, console, admonish, and encourage 00:24:57.740 --> 00:25:03.400 without fear of rejection or need of affirmation. 00:25:04.490 --> 00:25:08.410 As the beloved, I can suffer persecution without 00:25:08.410 --> 00:25:12.849 the desire for revenge and receive praise without 00:25:12.849 --> 00:25:19.210 using it as a proof of my own goodness. I mean, 00:25:19.230 --> 00:25:21.589 I say to folks, put that on your home screen. 00:25:21.849 --> 00:25:27.109 Live by that. I mean, that's what it means to 00:25:27.109 --> 00:25:29.789 try to be learning to live a life that's rooted 00:25:29.789 --> 00:25:34.519 in authenticity. That's so beautiful, Wes. What 00:25:34.519 --> 00:25:38.319 would be – the word authenticity is complicated 00:25:38.319 --> 00:25:40.640 for me. What would be another way to say it? 00:25:40.660 --> 00:25:42.859 You're saying the truth self, Merton. Truth self. 00:25:43.500 --> 00:25:46.480 It's what Merton and others – Is there a gospel 00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:49.519 phrase for that? A word in the gospels? Maybe 00:25:49.519 --> 00:25:53.339 not. I don't know. Authenticity – I think we're 00:25:53.339 --> 00:25:56.779 all broken. As Henry said, everybody is wounded. 00:25:56.920 --> 00:25:59.599 So Henry was so – such a genius saying you're 00:25:59.599 --> 00:26:01.460 either going to be a wounded wounder or a wounded 00:26:01.460 --> 00:26:05.000 healer. And that's a conscious daily choice of 00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:11.900 prayer. You know, I think that some of the gospel 00:26:11.900 --> 00:26:19.339 or scriptural images that refer to becoming a 00:26:19.339 --> 00:26:23.000 true son, a true daughter. Yeah, the beloved. 00:26:23.240 --> 00:26:28.259 You know, the beloved. I think that. that sort 00:26:28.259 --> 00:26:31.079 of gets at it better. I mean, yeah, authenticity, 00:26:31.380 --> 00:26:34.900 you know what I'm after, but it also, that's 00:26:34.900 --> 00:26:38.740 used a lot in kind of secular psychological ways. 00:26:39.259 --> 00:26:43.940 And if you talk about... Living as the beloved, 00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:46.700 you know, in the Orthodox tradition, it really 00:26:46.700 --> 00:26:49.839 means living into the inheritance of what it 00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:54.319 means to have God within us. Well, and Jesus, 00:26:54.660 --> 00:26:57.259 I mean, if anyone should have practiced grandiosity, 00:26:57.460 --> 00:27:02.819 it was him. And he says in Luke, I'm gentle and 00:27:02.819 --> 00:27:06.579 humble of heart. Yeah. It's shocking. He's so 00:27:06.579 --> 00:27:12.450 gentle and humble. That would not be a way to 00:27:12.450 --> 00:27:15.970 describe my way I've operated. This is such an 00:27:15.970 --> 00:27:18.349 indictment for me as I'm listening to you. But 00:27:18.349 --> 00:27:22.430 it's a grace because I've gone through the same 00:27:22.430 --> 00:27:25.269 thing through the pandemic of really trying to 00:27:25.269 --> 00:27:27.589 break through. I do think it's a question of 00:27:27.589 --> 00:27:31.170 age. As a friend told me recently, getting older, 00:27:31.390 --> 00:27:34.509 we get a little wiser maybe. And maybe we're 00:27:34.509 --> 00:27:37.930 forced into humility. I think it is, too. I think 00:27:37.930 --> 00:27:39.849 there's one other thing I've thought a bit about, 00:27:39.930 --> 00:27:43.480 John. You know, you and I were both kind of active 00:27:43.480 --> 00:27:48.660 early in that time in the 70s and now. And, you 00:27:48.660 --> 00:27:52.619 know, there are parallels externally to the kind 00:27:52.619 --> 00:27:56.660 of threat and breakdown and corporate evil that 00:27:56.660 --> 00:28:02.400 we saw then and that we see now. And I think 00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:06.390 that, you know, maybe. We think back to how we 00:28:06.390 --> 00:28:09.589 responded then and then can put it into a better 00:28:09.589 --> 00:28:12.009 perspective of what we might be able to do now. 00:28:12.710 --> 00:28:15.750 And for some of us who are at this point in our 00:28:15.750 --> 00:28:20.230 journey, that might resonate. So beautiful. Well, 00:28:20.490 --> 00:28:24.250 calling us to live authentically and humbly as 00:28:24.250 --> 00:28:27.170 our true selves with others. Then you talk about 00:28:27.170 --> 00:28:30.480 a fourth movement of your life. which is also 00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:32.839 another way of saying the same thing. It's so 00:28:32.839 --> 00:28:37.039 powerful. From control to trust, another way 00:28:37.039 --> 00:28:40.240 of describing, I think, the spiritual crisis. 00:28:40.319 --> 00:28:43.319 It's not just a political crisis in the country 00:28:43.319 --> 00:28:46.920 or the churches. It's ultimately a spiritual 00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:49.980 crisis. We all want to be in control. The church 00:28:49.980 --> 00:28:52.559 is in control, and it's another way of ego. I'm 00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:54.839 in control. Therefore, God, by the way, you know, 00:28:54.900 --> 00:28:57.059 you're really nice, and Jesus, I really like 00:28:57.059 --> 00:29:00.089 you, but I got this covered. I'm in charge. I'm 00:29:00.089 --> 00:29:03.470 doing it. So you call it the illusion of control. 00:29:03.670 --> 00:29:06.450 That's kind of controlling us all. And we all 00:29:06.450 --> 00:29:09.569 try to control everything. And, you know, my 00:29:09.569 --> 00:29:12.509 whole life I've worked for peace. And I was facing 00:29:12.509 --> 00:29:17.029 20 years in jail, prison, Wes. And I was in control. 00:29:18.369 --> 00:29:22.089 And so, you know, I'm like, God, I got this down. 00:29:22.329 --> 00:29:25.289 I don't really need you. But I think. I'm serving 00:29:25.289 --> 00:29:28.309 God. And then I think, and maybe you write this, 00:29:28.490 --> 00:29:34.289 do we really want God? The inevitable path, painful 00:29:34.289 --> 00:29:38.730 path, you call us to, of relinquishing full control 00:29:38.730 --> 00:29:42.569 to God. That's really the spiritual journey, 00:29:42.670 --> 00:29:45.890 learning to let God run our lives. And that's 00:29:45.890 --> 00:29:48.910 trusting God. That's why I wanted to have you 00:29:48.910 --> 00:29:51.130 on, because that's where I've been at the last 00:29:51.130 --> 00:29:56.779 five years, trying to... change myself and move 00:29:56.779 --> 00:30:00.240 into that. So talk, teach me all about that. 00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:04.180 Well, you know, it's, you probably know David 00:30:04.180 --> 00:30:07.039 White, his poetry. Yeah, I know David. Yeah. 00:30:07.940 --> 00:30:11.859 I've never met him, but in this poem, what do 00:30:11.859 --> 00:30:14.279 you remember upon waking? He has this one line 00:30:14.279 --> 00:30:18.859 that I keep quoting. What you can plan is too 00:30:18.859 --> 00:30:25.789 small for you to live. And I love that. I'm on 00:30:25.789 --> 00:30:29.430 the board of our local Trout Unlimited chapter. 00:30:29.789 --> 00:30:33.670 And we had a meeting last night and we had a 00:30:33.670 --> 00:30:36.430 really, you know, earnest person gave a good 00:30:36.430 --> 00:30:40.230 presentation about their strategic plan. And, 00:30:40.269 --> 00:30:43.150 you know, I've just given up on strategic plans 00:30:43.150 --> 00:30:49.309 because I think we, you know, we think in a secular 00:30:49.309 --> 00:30:53.250 way. You plan, you strategize, you control, you 00:30:53.250 --> 00:30:56.009 get measurable outcomes, and that's how you do 00:30:56.009 --> 00:31:00.089 it. Then we kind of imply that in our own spiritual, 00:31:00.289 --> 00:31:05.029 personal life as well. The fact is that just 00:31:05.029 --> 00:31:08.349 external events, take COVID, take the murder 00:31:08.349 --> 00:31:12.309 of George Floyd, take the raging forest fires 00:31:12.309 --> 00:31:15.269 in this part of the country, take so many events 00:31:15.269 --> 00:31:19.410 that we could never plan that totally wipe out. 00:31:19.900 --> 00:31:22.220 our ability to think that we're in control. And 00:31:22.220 --> 00:31:24.539 that's kind of a metaphor for, I think, what 00:31:24.539 --> 00:31:29.220 happens in our own personal lives as well. It's, 00:31:29.220 --> 00:31:33.039 I don't know, you know, there are lots of ways 00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:37.019 to think about it, but Meister Eichart has one 00:31:37.019 --> 00:31:40.380 line that says, God only asks that you get out 00:31:40.380 --> 00:31:45.660 of God's way and let God be God in you. I like 00:31:45.660 --> 00:31:50.289 that a lot. To get to a point. of trust where 00:31:50.289 --> 00:31:55.230 we really recognize that we we kind of relinquish 00:31:55.230 --> 00:31:58.269 our ability to think we are the masters that 00:31:58.269 --> 00:32:00.470 we are the ones who can make everything happen 00:32:00.470 --> 00:32:03.690 which is so ingrained within our culture and 00:32:03.690 --> 00:32:08.740 to be at the point where we are resilient because 00:32:08.740 --> 00:32:11.759 we're looking for grace. We're looking for where 00:32:11.759 --> 00:32:14.660 God breaks through. We're looking for what God 00:32:14.660 --> 00:32:17.980 seems to already be doing and moving. And then 00:32:17.980 --> 00:32:20.859 we try to simply participate in that. And of 00:32:20.859 --> 00:32:22.279 course, there's no better time to think about 00:32:22.279 --> 00:32:25.720 that than Advent as we begin to approach. It's 00:32:25.720 --> 00:32:32.799 so rich what the shocking breakthrough. Embarrassing. 00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:35.640 I shouldn't tell on myself, but it's humiliating 00:32:35.640 --> 00:32:40.599 that during the COVID was I realized, wow, if 00:32:40.599 --> 00:32:44.539 I let go of control and God runs the show, things 00:32:44.539 --> 00:32:50.559 turn out better. You know, I think I know better 00:32:50.559 --> 00:32:56.789 than God. Now, I used to say I am 99%. Surrender 00:32:56.789 --> 00:33:01.589 to God. Isn't that impressive, Wes? Even if that 00:33:01.589 --> 00:33:05.809 were true, which it isn't, it's baloney because 00:33:05.809 --> 00:33:09.349 that 1%, I'm hanging by on the limb, you know, 00:33:09.369 --> 00:33:11.950 and I'm in charge. I'm not letting go and letting 00:33:11.950 --> 00:33:17.619 God. Now, so my practice, you know. That's why 00:33:17.619 --> 00:33:19.740 my whole new book is about surrendering and doing 00:33:19.740 --> 00:33:22.460 God's will. And I've written about it so much. 00:33:22.619 --> 00:33:25.900 Not my will, your will be done. And I was walking 00:33:25.900 --> 00:33:28.599 up in Big Sur with my spiritual director, monk 00:33:28.599 --> 00:33:31.119 friend, and I said, hey, you know, I think that's 00:33:31.119 --> 00:33:34.000 the only prayer. Really, in the end, it's the 00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:36.299 Lord's prayer. It's Gethsemane. It's what Mary 00:33:36.299 --> 00:33:39.359 says to the angel. Not my, whatever God wants. 00:33:39.660 --> 00:33:42.859 That's all I'm about. And my friend goes, oh, 00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:45.700 yeah, well, I. We were walking, and he didn't 00:33:45.700 --> 00:33:48.000 even look up. He said, oh, I say that at least 00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:50.680 a thousand times a day. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, and 00:33:50.680 --> 00:33:53.440 well, if you're a hermit in Big Sur, you will. 00:33:54.180 --> 00:33:59.980 But it was very powerful. And another angle, 00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:02.539 and I'd like you to say more about this, but 00:34:02.539 --> 00:34:07.160 Jesus kind of says this. He's modeling this for 00:34:07.160 --> 00:34:12.699 us in John's Gospel, where he says, Which I never 00:34:12.699 --> 00:34:16.400 understood this sentence, but I can do nothing 00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:21.300 on my own. Yeah. And I think that means if I 00:34:21.300 --> 00:34:23.900 am totally, he's teaching us how to be a human 00:34:23.900 --> 00:34:26.579 being. If you're totally self -sufficient and 00:34:26.579 --> 00:34:32.460 in control, your life is a disaster. But if you 00:34:32.460 --> 00:34:36.059 surrender everything 100 % to God and let God 00:34:36.059 --> 00:34:39.650 use you. And you're not coming up with a five 00:34:39.650 --> 00:34:42.789 -year plan or one -year plan, a plan for tomorrow. 00:34:43.730 --> 00:34:46.409 But you're going to say, hey, God, if you want 00:34:46.409 --> 00:34:48.849 to even use me to help get rid of nuclear weapons 00:34:48.849 --> 00:34:53.170 or whatever, fine. I give you permission. All 00:34:53.170 --> 00:34:55.250 these miracles will happen. And I've known so 00:34:55.250 --> 00:34:57.309 many saints who've done that, and they were trying 00:34:57.309 --> 00:34:59.429 to tell. Daniel Bergen tried to tell me this 00:34:59.429 --> 00:35:01.110 for 30 years, and I didn't know what he was talking 00:35:01.110 --> 00:35:06.460 about. So say more about all this. Well, and 00:35:06.460 --> 00:35:08.860 I think it's, yeah, I think it's really relevant 00:35:08.860 --> 00:35:12.780 to what you've given so much leadership to, John, 00:35:12.840 --> 00:35:16.019 around the nonviolent call, the nonviolent Jesus. 00:35:16.679 --> 00:35:20.900 You see, I think that we can't get to that real 00:35:20.900 --> 00:35:24.739 point of a nonviolent witness if we aren't dealing 00:35:24.739 --> 00:35:28.679 exactly with self -sufficiency, certainty, grandiosity 00:35:28.679 --> 00:35:32.860 and control. And I think that we see in Jesus. 00:35:33.550 --> 00:35:38.090 in his call to love our enemies and then in the 00:35:38.090 --> 00:35:41.949 way he laid down his life and the way he poured 00:35:41.949 --> 00:35:46.570 out his love uh we see a real example and you 00:35:46.570 --> 00:35:49.250 know you could you can be called you've dealt 00:35:49.250 --> 00:35:52.469 with this your whole life and witness john and 00:35:52.469 --> 00:35:55.010 you know people can be called to non -violence 00:35:55.010 --> 00:35:58.309 out of a philosophy out of an ideology or they 00:35:58.309 --> 00:36:01.929 can look to inspiring examples but if you're 00:36:01.929 --> 00:36:07.579 going to live In a nonviolent witness, I think 00:36:07.579 --> 00:36:10.099 you have to live at the point of belonging and 00:36:10.099 --> 00:36:14.900 connection and relinquishment. Because that's, 00:36:14.900 --> 00:36:18.900 I mean, that's really what it's all about. I 00:36:18.900 --> 00:36:22.679 totally agree. And why did it take my whole life 00:36:22.679 --> 00:36:24.500 to learn this? I guess, again, I'm going to keep 00:36:24.500 --> 00:36:27.780 giving thanks and saying it's a grace that I 00:36:27.780 --> 00:36:31.159 finally... God is getting through to me or trying 00:36:31.159 --> 00:36:35.440 to. So the word I've been using is surrender 00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:38.300 in my new book. You use relinquishment. So it's 00:36:38.300 --> 00:36:40.380 all these things, breaking that down. It is. 00:36:40.920 --> 00:36:43.960 But to our listeners, what you all don't know 00:36:43.960 --> 00:36:46.860 is that Wes and I had the same spiritual director. 00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:50.920 For me, Wes. It was like 15 years in New Mexico, 00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:55.739 and he was a total saint. Brother Joe, I'll just 00:36:55.739 --> 00:37:00.340 say that. And Joe, Wes, just laugh. I'd see him 00:37:00.340 --> 00:37:02.679 once a month for 15 years, and he's trying to 00:37:02.679 --> 00:37:06.719 teach me to let go. And he keeps saying, John, 00:37:06.940 --> 00:37:12.480 the whole journey is kenosis, Jesus' self -emptying 00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:17.199 love. And I go, huh? You know, and now it's all 00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:21.420 so clear to me. So I said to Jim, now my other 00:37:21.420 --> 00:37:23.739 really great friend was Reverend Jim Lawson, 00:37:23.780 --> 00:37:26.139 who was a great strategist and thinker of the 00:37:26.139 --> 00:37:27.920 civil rights movement, one of Dr. King's best 00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:31.619 friends, up until he died. And he died, I guess, 00:37:31.639 --> 00:37:33.539 a year or two ago. And shortly before he died, 00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:36.380 I called him. I said, you're getting to know 00:37:36.380 --> 00:37:40.840 me, Wes. I was like, Jim, I figured it out. Nonviolence 00:37:40.840 --> 00:37:44.099 requires total surrender to God. You can't be 00:37:44.099 --> 00:37:47.679 nonviolent if you think you're in control and 00:37:47.679 --> 00:37:50.619 self -sufficient and you're in charge. You have 00:37:50.619 --> 00:37:54.159 to let God be in charge. And he goes, wow, I 00:37:54.159 --> 00:37:56.940 never knew that. And of course. He died. And 00:37:56.940 --> 00:37:59.059 then a couple months later, I found a quote from 00:37:59.059 --> 00:38:01.960 Martin Luther King, where Martin King said, around 00:38:01.960 --> 00:38:06.019 66, nonviolence requires total surrender to God. 00:38:06.280 --> 00:38:10.780 Of course, Dr. King knew all of that. So expand 00:38:10.780 --> 00:38:13.400 on this, and then we'll end with your eight points 00:38:13.400 --> 00:38:18.500 about kenosis. Because nobody talks about Jesus' 00:38:18.739 --> 00:38:21.320 self -emptying love. The cross is political. 00:38:22.139 --> 00:38:25.619 It's resistance. Absolutely. But it's also total 00:38:25.619 --> 00:38:30.139 inner letting go and trusting God can use this 00:38:30.139 --> 00:38:34.719 disaster. Well, you know, I think, yes, I think 00:38:34.719 --> 00:38:40.400 in the cross, what you see is that the experiences 00:38:40.400 --> 00:38:45.519 of deepest trauma and pain and even death are 00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:50.719 accompanied mysteriously with this. faithful, 00:38:50.880 --> 00:38:56.139 flowing out love of God, and that that's really 00:38:56.139 --> 00:38:59.659 what we see happening there, and it gets translated 00:38:59.659 --> 00:39:03.000 into our lived experience, and I think gets translated 00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:07.320 into our historical encounters, how we try to 00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:13.679 witness in the world. I think that people are 00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:19.219 called, finally, to examples of those. who have 00:39:19.219 --> 00:39:21.559 learned to live this way and you know when you 00:39:21.559 --> 00:39:24.280 think of the people whom we cite or even go back 00:39:24.280 --> 00:39:27.420 in history you know whether it's saint francis 00:39:27.420 --> 00:39:31.639 or other you know other real leaders or one one 00:39:31.639 --> 00:39:34.679 example i often like to cite is dog homershield 00:39:34.679 --> 00:39:39.460 this famous secretary general of the un who's 00:39:39.460 --> 00:39:42.820 dealing with all this peacemaking work and he 00:39:42.820 --> 00:39:46.500 dies and turns out he kept a journal It was published 00:39:46.500 --> 00:39:50.300 as markings, and W .H. Auden wrote the intro, 00:39:50.380 --> 00:39:55.440 and here you find a life that is shaped by readings 00:39:55.440 --> 00:39:58.260 and influences by people like Meister Eckhart 00:39:58.260 --> 00:40:01.400 and many others, and you suddenly see, yes, this 00:40:01.400 --> 00:40:05.980 person was also living at that level. And one 00:40:05.980 --> 00:40:09.199 way or another, it does all go back to the example 00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:17.539 of Jesus, who on that last night, simply poured 00:40:17.539 --> 00:40:21.039 himself out and washed the feet and gave himself 00:40:21.039 --> 00:40:23.880 all over and said that prayer that you just said, 00:40:23.940 --> 00:40:29.039 John, not my will but thine be done. You know, 00:40:29.059 --> 00:40:34.039 we've gotten so captured by either the individual 00:40:34.039 --> 00:40:39.719 friend who is Jesus or the all -powerful. You 00:40:39.719 --> 00:40:42.039 know, Jesus, who was king, like next Sunday's 00:40:42.039 --> 00:40:44.440 Christ, the king Sunday. And that's always a 00:40:44.440 --> 00:40:47.800 little bit problematic. I think the real message, 00:40:47.860 --> 00:40:53.000 the real model of Jesus is this one whose whole 00:40:53.000 --> 00:40:59.760 life embodies this constant, outflowing, bounderless 00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:05.599 love of God. He's living in that love. That's 00:41:05.599 --> 00:41:08.389 so beautiful. Well, we're really out of time. 00:41:08.409 --> 00:41:12.449 And you end in the book with, you call them eight 00:41:12.449 --> 00:41:15.230 roots to ground our work for justice. And I'd 00:41:15.230 --> 00:41:18.869 like you to read them and then just offer any 00:41:18.869 --> 00:41:21.650 other concluding thoughts and we'll end. And 00:41:21.650 --> 00:41:25.199 I loved these. They're kind of your lessons of 00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:27.920 soul work for the work of justice. At the end 00:41:27.920 --> 00:41:30.320 of all this, I kind of thought, well, if you're 00:41:30.320 --> 00:41:33.639 an activist like we are, and you read this, well, 00:41:33.739 --> 00:41:36.099 what can I learn? What should guide me? Well, 00:41:36.119 --> 00:41:39.380 this is what I think. Number one, you know that 00:41:39.380 --> 00:41:43.059 this world belongs to God. This is God's world. 00:41:44.260 --> 00:41:46.800 Number two, you know that your engagement with 00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:50.320 the world has a spiritual foundation. In other 00:41:50.320 --> 00:41:53.000 words, you're not just reacting around ideology 00:41:53.000 --> 00:41:56.599 and politics. It really is deeper. Three, you 00:41:56.599 --> 00:41:59.840 act on the basis of call. You're not acting out 00:41:59.840 --> 00:42:02.840 of like, what's the most urgent? No, what are 00:42:02.840 --> 00:42:05.820 you deeply called to? I mean, the way a person 00:42:05.820 --> 00:42:09.360 like Archbishop Wester, he knows he's called 00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:12.679 to an anti -nuclear witness. Fourth, your action 00:42:12.679 --> 00:42:15.420 is steadfast and committed to the long term. 00:42:17.610 --> 00:42:21.710 You're in touch with the flow of God's love into 00:42:21.710 --> 00:42:24.590 the world, and that's going to keep you going. 00:42:25.170 --> 00:42:28.030 And five comes from that. You display resilience. 00:42:28.530 --> 00:42:32.030 It's not in planning and control, but it's in 00:42:32.030 --> 00:42:37.670 our ability to have the inner strength and discernment 00:42:37.670 --> 00:42:42.250 to respond. Fifth, you are detached from your 00:42:42.250 --> 00:42:46.400 ego. I like one definition of prayers. Prayer 00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:49.039 is detachment from the fruit of your actions. 00:42:49.719 --> 00:42:53.619 You know, it's not about you. And then seventh, 00:42:53.739 --> 00:42:56.760 you don't demonize your opponents. That's frankly, 00:42:56.860 --> 00:42:58.539 John, that's one of the hardest ones for me. 00:42:59.239 --> 00:43:01.760 But if you really believe what we say about the 00:43:01.760 --> 00:43:05.099 image of God, you get around, you get beyond 00:43:05.099 --> 00:43:07.460 binary thinking. You don't demonize your opponents. 00:43:07.559 --> 00:43:10.659 And finally. you are rooted and grounded in love. 00:43:10.800 --> 00:43:14.420 It's that passage from Ephesians 3 that is so, 00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:17.780 I think, important to me, that the love that 00:43:17.780 --> 00:43:21.460 is so spacious, so beyond knowledge, but it is 00:43:21.460 --> 00:43:25.960 to captivate our inner being. Wow. Well, thank 00:43:25.960 --> 00:43:29.059 you so much, Wes Granberg -Michelson, for speaking 00:43:29.059 --> 00:43:31.179 with me today. And I urge everyone to get his 00:43:31.179 --> 00:43:33.460 beautiful new book, The Soul Work of Justice. 00:43:33.960 --> 00:43:36.139 And thank you, friends, for listening to this 00:43:36.139 --> 00:43:39.150 episode of the Nonviolent Jesus. podcast. You 00:43:39.150 --> 00:43:42.070 can hear many more podcasts and other upcoming 00:43:42.070 --> 00:43:46.989 Zoom programs at beatitudecenter .org. And please 00:43:46.989 --> 00:43:49.469 consider offering a donation to support this 00:43:49.469 --> 00:43:52.550 free work. If you can, please leave some positive 00:43:52.550 --> 00:43:55.889 feedback or view the National Catholic Reporter 00:43:55.889 --> 00:44:00.570 online or Apple or Spotify or YouTube or Substack, 00:44:00.590 --> 00:44:03.909 whatever platform you use, and help spread the 00:44:03.909 --> 00:44:06.050 word about the podcast. That's really the best 00:44:06.050 --> 00:44:09.070 way we have, by telling your friends and churchgoers 00:44:09.070 --> 00:44:12.269 about this. May the God of peace bless you all. 00:44:12.369 --> 00:44:15.489 Keep on following the nonviolent Jesus. See you 00:44:15.489 --> 00:44:16.230 all next time.