WEBVTT 00:00:15.980 --> 00:00:19.339 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:19.339 --> 00:00:22.280 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:22.280 --> 00:00:25.320 with my friend Ivana Hughes. This is a project 00:00:25.320 --> 00:00:29.339 of BeatitudeCenter .org, where you can find many 00:00:29.339 --> 00:00:32.600 other podcasts and regular Zoom programs on the 00:00:32.600 --> 00:00:35.320 nonviolence of Jesus and practicing peace and 00:00:35.320 --> 00:00:38.380 nonviolence and working for a more just, more 00:00:38.380 --> 00:00:41.810 nonviolent, more peaceful world. So let's begin, 00:00:41.929 --> 00:00:44.469 as usual, with just a little prayer. And I invite 00:00:44.469 --> 00:00:48.109 you, wherever you are, just to take a deep breath 00:00:48.109 --> 00:00:53.710 and relax and recenter yourself. And together, 00:00:53.750 --> 00:00:57.710 let's enter into the presence of the God of peace 00:00:57.710 --> 00:01:01.850 who loves you infinitely and personally and everyone 00:01:01.850 --> 00:01:05.739 everywhere. And we welcome the nonviolent Jesus 00:01:05.739 --> 00:01:08.299 here with us and take a moment to ask for whatever 00:01:08.299 --> 00:01:12.219 graces you need to be a peacemaker and to do 00:01:12.219 --> 00:01:21.340 the will of the God of peace. God of peace, thank 00:01:21.340 --> 00:01:23.780 you for all the blessings of life, love, and 00:01:23.780 --> 00:01:26.680 peace that you give us. Be with us now as we 00:01:26.680 --> 00:01:29.379 reflect together on your call to be peacemakers. 00:01:30.189 --> 00:01:32.430 and to work for a more just, more nonviolent 00:01:32.430 --> 00:01:36.849 world. Bless us, inspire us, disarm us, strengthen 00:01:36.849 --> 00:01:40.189 us, and send us out to do your will, to do our 00:01:40.189 --> 00:01:44.829 part, to help end war itself and poverty, racism, 00:01:44.989 --> 00:01:48.469 greed, injustice, and especially nuclear weapons 00:01:48.469 --> 00:01:51.469 and environmental destruction, that we might 00:01:51.469 --> 00:01:54.769 all be your holy peacemakers and welcome your 00:01:54.769 --> 00:01:58.129 reign of universal love, nonviolence, and peace 00:01:58.129 --> 00:02:02.930 on earth. Amen. So it's a great pleasure to welcome 00:02:02.930 --> 00:02:05.469 my friend, Dr. Ivana Hughes, president of the 00:02:05.469 --> 00:02:09.310 Nuclear Age Peace Foundation. Dr. Hughes is a 00:02:09.310 --> 00:02:12.569 senior lecturer in the discipline of chemistry 00:02:12.569 --> 00:02:16.449 at Columbia University in New York City. Dr. 00:02:16.650 --> 00:02:19.370 Hughes obtained her PhD from Stanford University, 00:02:19.550 --> 00:02:22.930 where she was an American Heart Association pre 00:02:22.930 --> 00:02:25.879 -doctoral fellow. She has been a faculty member 00:02:25.879 --> 00:02:30.099 at Columbia University since 2008 and was awarded 00:02:30.099 --> 00:02:32.719 the Lenfest Distinguished Columbia Faculty Award 00:02:32.719 --> 00:02:37.439 for 2020. Her work on ascertaining the radiological 00:02:37.439 --> 00:02:41.740 conditions in the Marshall Islands has been covered 00:02:41.740 --> 00:02:44.860 widely. She currently serves as a member of the 00:02:44.860 --> 00:02:47.639 Scientific Advisory Group for the United Nations. 00:02:48.650 --> 00:02:51.030 to the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons, 00:02:51.210 --> 00:02:54.509 a committee consisting of 15 experts from around 00:02:54.509 --> 00:02:57.810 the world who advise the state parties on scientific 00:02:57.810 --> 00:03:01.490 issues as they pertain to the treaty. Her writings 00:03:01.490 --> 00:03:03.889 have appeared in The Nation, The Bulletin of 00:03:03.889 --> 00:03:07.169 Atomic Scientists, The Hill, Scientific and American, 00:03:07.490 --> 00:03:11.389 Truthout, Common Dreams, The Diplomat, and elsewhere. 00:03:11.729 --> 00:03:14.729 Dr. Ivana Hughes, welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus 00:03:14.729 --> 00:03:18.740 podcast. Thank you so much, Father John. It's 00:03:18.740 --> 00:03:21.919 really a pleasure and an honor to be with you 00:03:21.919 --> 00:03:24.560 today. Thank you. And thanks for all the great 00:03:24.560 --> 00:03:26.599 work you've been doing in your leadership for 00:03:26.599 --> 00:03:31.000 nuclear disarmament. I'm going to talk about 00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:34.039 that with you because... I don't know anything 00:03:34.039 --> 00:03:38.719 about chemistry or the chem tables. That makes 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:41.520 me very scared even thinking about it. But you 00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:44.039 are the president of one of the premier organizations 00:03:44.039 --> 00:03:47.800 in the world advocating for nuclear discernment, 00:03:47.860 --> 00:03:50.759 the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation, which people 00:03:50.759 --> 00:03:56.360 can learn about at www .wagingpeace .org. So 00:03:56.360 --> 00:03:59.360 let's just jump right into that, Ivana. Tell 00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:03.620 us about the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation. Absolutely, 00:04:03.860 --> 00:04:07.120 Father John. So the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation 00:04:07.120 --> 00:04:12.280 was founded in 1982, so we're nearing our 43rd 00:04:12.280 --> 00:04:16.920 birthday or anniversary. It was founded by really 00:04:16.920 --> 00:04:20.860 a few visionary people, including David Krieger, 00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:23.480 who was a longtime president of the foundation 00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:28.459 and who passed away in 2023, and Frank A. Kelly. 00:04:28.519 --> 00:04:32.319 This is a group of people who realized... that 00:04:32.319 --> 00:04:37.480 in the nuclear age, peace wasn't just a moral 00:04:37.480 --> 00:04:41.100 imperative. It was actually an existential imperative. 00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:46.360 And so they wanted to form an organization that 00:04:46.360 --> 00:04:51.360 would be, in some sense, flexible in the way 00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:53.879 in which it would approach these issues, but 00:04:53.879 --> 00:04:58.920 also really stay true to the goal, the vision 00:04:58.920 --> 00:05:02.199 of a world free of nuclear weapons. And so over 00:05:02.199 --> 00:05:04.819 the decades, the mission has really remained 00:05:04.819 --> 00:05:08.540 the same. I took the helm of the foundation in 00:05:08.540 --> 00:05:12.420 2022 and essentially didn't change anything about 00:05:12.420 --> 00:05:17.819 what we aim to do. which is to educate and advocate 00:05:17.819 --> 00:05:21.019 for a just and peaceful world, one that is free 00:05:21.019 --> 00:05:25.160 of nuclear weapons, as far and wide as we possibly 00:05:25.160 --> 00:05:30.569 can. Over the decades, there have been a number 00:05:30.569 --> 00:05:34.110 of initiatives that NAPF either was a part of 00:05:34.110 --> 00:05:37.829 or had spearheaded, including, I'll just mention 00:05:37.829 --> 00:05:40.910 a few of them, the Waging Peace Series, which 00:05:40.910 --> 00:05:44.189 in the early years, the early decades, sort of 00:05:44.189 --> 00:05:48.170 brought to the fore some of the issues that are 00:05:48.170 --> 00:05:52.990 so specific to the nuclear age as a whole and 00:05:52.990 --> 00:05:58.639 to nuclear weapons in particular. The foundation 00:05:58.639 --> 00:06:03.399 was also engaged in efforts such as the Middle 00:06:03.399 --> 00:06:07.019 States Power Initiative. This was a kind of international 00:06:07.019 --> 00:06:11.180 effort to bring those states that do not possess 00:06:11.180 --> 00:06:15.680 nuclear weapons but still have a kind of clout 00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:22.300 in the world to advocate for disarmament. There 00:06:22.300 --> 00:06:26.300 was another initiative which we... called the 00:06:26.300 --> 00:06:29.740 Nuclear Zero Lawsuits. This was in the 2010s, 00:06:29.740 --> 00:06:33.339 working with the government of the Republic of 00:06:33.339 --> 00:06:35.779 the Marshall Islands. You actually mentioned 00:06:35.779 --> 00:06:39.240 that I have done scientific research on trying 00:06:39.240 --> 00:06:42.480 to understand the radiological conditions in 00:06:42.480 --> 00:06:46.540 the Marshall Islands, which were, and many in 00:06:46.540 --> 00:06:49.800 your audience might know this, the site of U 00:06:49.800 --> 00:06:54.470 .S. nuclear testing from 1946 to 1958. But in 00:06:54.470 --> 00:06:57.730 the 2010s, the Republic of the Marshall Islands 00:06:57.730 --> 00:07:01.470 decided that they wanted to actually sue nuclear 00:07:01.470 --> 00:07:05.149 -armed states, not for what had actually happened 00:07:05.149 --> 00:07:07.930 during the nuclear testing period, but for their 00:07:07.930 --> 00:07:11.509 failure to disarm, which is actually an obligation 00:07:11.509 --> 00:07:16.910 of, in particular, five nuclear weapons states 00:07:16.910 --> 00:07:20.399 that are recognized. by the Nuclear Non -Proliferation 00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:23.779 Treaty. And so that was another initiative. And 00:07:23.779 --> 00:07:28.660 more recently, since I took the helm of the foundation, 00:07:28.980 --> 00:07:32.779 we've really been very focused on multilateral 00:07:32.779 --> 00:07:35.639 processes at the United Nations. You mentioned 00:07:35.639 --> 00:07:38.290 the treaty on the... prohibition of nuclear weapons, 00:07:38.430 --> 00:07:41.310 and I'll be happy to speak about it a little 00:07:41.310 --> 00:07:44.949 bit more. But we do, we try to bring disarmament 00:07:44.949 --> 00:07:48.329 into, and in particular nuclear disarmament, 00:07:48.389 --> 00:07:53.490 into other fora, including United Nations General 00:07:53.490 --> 00:07:56.670 Assembly, including other disarmament meetings 00:07:56.670 --> 00:08:00.509 like the Nuclear Non -Proliferation Treaty, as 00:08:00.509 --> 00:08:05.040 well as really a whole host of kind of... Discussions 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:08.759 that take place at the UN around issues like 00:08:08.759 --> 00:08:12.819 sustainability, the health of our oceans, information 00:08:12.819 --> 00:08:16.680 and communications technologies, so many of these 00:08:16.680 --> 00:08:20.500 issues actually have links to the fundamental 00:08:20.500 --> 00:08:27.040 problem of having weapons in our world that are 00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:31.019 quite simply capable of destroying it. And so 00:08:31.019 --> 00:08:34.539 that has really been, you know, our our focus 00:08:34.539 --> 00:08:37.360 again over the decades and and really something 00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:42.620 that I'm very, very much committed to in my still 00:08:42.620 --> 00:08:46.960 fairly, you know, young presidency and leadership 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:50.480 of the foundation. Yes. Thank you. It's very 00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:56.600 hard to talk about nuclear weapons and the possibility 00:08:56.600 --> 00:09:01.210 and reality of nuclear war. I think we have to. 00:09:01.370 --> 00:09:07.269 And having you here is a great gift. We're closer 00:09:07.269 --> 00:09:10.169 than ever before to nuclear war. We continue 00:09:10.169 --> 00:09:13.070 to spend trillions maintaining and building these 00:09:13.070 --> 00:09:16.169 weapons instead of using those funds for justice 00:09:16.169 --> 00:09:19.190 and the needs of the global poor. So I want to 00:09:19.190 --> 00:09:22.529 ask you briefly to talk from your perspective 00:09:22.529 --> 00:09:28.389 about the threat of nuclear war today, late 2025. 00:09:30.570 --> 00:09:36.690 I think the threat is absolutely enormous. I 00:09:36.690 --> 00:09:39.809 think this is something that could not just happen 00:09:39.809 --> 00:09:43.690 quite literally tomorrow or next week or next 00:09:43.690 --> 00:09:48.970 month or in a year, but something that would 00:09:48.970 --> 00:09:51.629 also happen, I think it's so important for people 00:09:51.629 --> 00:09:54.230 to know and recognize this, that would happen 00:09:54.230 --> 00:09:57.610 in a matter of minutes. Actually, next week. 00:09:58.679 --> 00:10:02.700 Netflix will release a new film by Catherine 00:10:02.700 --> 00:10:07.100 Bigelow, the Oscar -winning film director, called 00:10:07.100 --> 00:10:10.519 The House of Dynamite. And I encourage everyone 00:10:10.519 --> 00:10:15.059 who has a chance to see it because it describes 00:10:15.059 --> 00:10:19.480 a scenario that makes it very, very clear that 00:10:19.480 --> 00:10:23.600 nuclear war is the kind of existential threat 00:10:23.600 --> 00:10:27.399 that's going to take place in a matter of minutes. 00:10:28.130 --> 00:10:32.110 I think what, of course, you will recall the 00:10:32.110 --> 00:10:36.409 days of the, you know, in the 80s and the very, 00:10:36.450 --> 00:10:40.110 very heightened nuclear arms race at the time 00:10:40.110 --> 00:10:44.149 there were on the order of 70 ,000 nuclear warheads, 00:10:44.250 --> 00:10:46.330 most of them in the possession of the United 00:10:46.330 --> 00:10:48.909 States and the Soviet Union. And, of course, 00:10:49.009 --> 00:10:53.049 it was an extremely dangerous time. In fact, 00:10:53.210 --> 00:10:56.129 many people who've... sort of studied and looked 00:10:56.129 --> 00:10:59.029 at the history of the nuclear age, really believed 00:10:59.029 --> 00:11:02.269 that we, for the most part, we actually just 00:11:02.269 --> 00:11:05.970 got really lucky. The nuclear war never happened. 00:11:06.049 --> 00:11:09.990 There were many, many close calls. But that, 00:11:10.090 --> 00:11:13.610 of course, led to, by the end of the 80s and 00:11:13.610 --> 00:11:16.950 early 90s, the collapse of the Soviet Union, 00:11:17.230 --> 00:11:22.590 huge nuclear arms reductions. agreements between 00:11:22.590 --> 00:11:27.009 the United States and Russia and so on. And we 00:11:27.009 --> 00:11:32.269 are currently at 12 ,500 nuclear warheads, which 00:11:32.269 --> 00:11:35.450 is, of course, a whole lot better than 70 ,000, 00:11:35.450 --> 00:11:40.070 but still enough to destroy the world over and 00:11:40.070 --> 00:11:45.590 over and over again. And what I think is really... 00:11:46.110 --> 00:11:50.350 key to recognize is that the dynamics have actually 00:11:50.350 --> 00:11:55.029 changed. It is no longer just a cold war between 00:11:55.029 --> 00:11:59.850 two superpowers. There are today nine nuclear 00:11:59.850 --> 00:12:02.990 -armed states, five of them, again, recognized 00:12:02.990 --> 00:12:05.690 by the United Nations as nuclear weapons states. 00:12:05.710 --> 00:12:08.950 That's United States, Russia, United Kingdom, 00:12:09.070 --> 00:12:13.210 France, and China, and then four others. that 00:12:13.210 --> 00:12:17.710 possess nuclear arms, which is Israel, India, 00:12:17.870 --> 00:12:23.149 Pakistan, and North Korea. And that's a lot more. 00:12:23.250 --> 00:12:27.409 As I said, the U .S. and Russia still have most 00:12:27.409 --> 00:12:31.370 of the world's largest arsenals, and I estimated 00:12:31.370 --> 00:12:36.230 at about 90 % of the world's arsenals. But it 00:12:36.230 --> 00:12:42.940 is a lot more complex. of a playing field when 00:12:42.940 --> 00:12:46.720 you have nine states possessing these weapons, 00:12:47.059 --> 00:12:53.840 some which are real, you know, hardcore adversaries. 00:12:54.080 --> 00:12:58.980 We saw just this year, India and Pakistan literally 00:12:58.980 --> 00:13:06.299 on the verge of war and the word nuclear war, 00:13:06.440 --> 00:13:10.179 you know, being... openly discussed as it has 00:13:10.179 --> 00:13:14.960 been since the onset of the Russian invasion 00:13:14.960 --> 00:13:19.919 of Ukraine in 2022. And of course, the Middle 00:13:19.919 --> 00:13:23.860 East conflict where we're thankfully celebrating 00:13:23.860 --> 00:13:29.279 some good news this week. And I'm keeping my 00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:34.360 fingers crossed that this continues on the same 00:13:34.360 --> 00:13:40.600 trajectory. In the Middle East, we have Israel, 00:13:40.620 --> 00:13:44.500 which also has nuclear weapons, and we saw all 00:13:44.500 --> 00:13:49.220 that happened that took place between Israel 00:13:49.220 --> 00:13:53.720 and Iran, as well as the United States, also 00:13:53.720 --> 00:14:00.500 earlier this year. So it's a very challenging 00:14:00.500 --> 00:14:06.080 time. You know, it's often described in United 00:14:06.080 --> 00:14:11.080 Nations, you know, lingo as a challenging security 00:14:11.080 --> 00:14:16.519 environment. And I think, you know, often when 00:14:16.519 --> 00:14:19.419 I try to speak to leaders, diplomats and so on, 00:14:19.460 --> 00:14:22.539 I get answers like, well, now is not a time for 00:14:22.539 --> 00:14:25.500 disarmament. And my answer is actually now is 00:14:25.500 --> 00:14:28.519 precisely the time for disarmament, because now 00:14:28.519 --> 00:14:34.970 we see that we see how. Easily, these weapons 00:14:34.970 --> 00:14:38.289 could end up being used in times of conflict, 00:14:38.450 --> 00:14:41.830 in times of heightened tensions, in times when 00:14:41.830 --> 00:14:44.570 maybe you think you're being attacked. Maybe 00:14:44.570 --> 00:14:47.330 you're not even under attack, but you think you 00:14:47.330 --> 00:14:50.570 are, and you end up using one of these weapons. 00:14:50.769 --> 00:14:53.769 And what we do know is that when you use one, 00:14:54.029 --> 00:14:57.629 it doesn't end there. It goes all the way to 00:14:57.629 --> 00:15:00.610 full -blown nuclear war, which would have... 00:15:00.940 --> 00:15:03.799 hundreds of millions of people dying from the 00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:06.639 explosions themselves, and then billions more 00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:10.139 from the aftermath of the explosions, from things 00:15:10.139 --> 00:15:12.840 like nuclear winter and ozone layer destruction 00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:16.809 and radiation and so on. So this is quite simply 00:15:16.809 --> 00:15:20.330 not, you know, it's like playing, people who 00:15:20.330 --> 00:15:22.730 refer to this as nuclear roulette, you know, 00:15:22.730 --> 00:15:26.809 just sort of continuing to play this game without 00:15:26.809 --> 00:15:31.149 recognizing that actually humanity cannot coexist 00:15:31.149 --> 00:15:34.629 with nuclear weapons. Thank you. Yes. It's an 00:15:34.629 --> 00:15:37.409 existential threat, as you said. Absolutely. 00:15:37.529 --> 00:15:40.909 One of the great signs of hope in the whole world 00:15:40.909 --> 00:15:44.289 right now, and where there seem to be so few, 00:15:45.100 --> 00:15:47.759 is I think the United Nations Treaty, the Treaty 00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:51.620 to Ban Nuclear Weapons, which you are actively 00:15:51.620 --> 00:15:55.820 a part of. And so I would love you to tell us 00:15:55.820 --> 00:15:58.240 all about the treaty and what it means, what's 00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:01.659 the latest news, what the strategy is. You know 00:16:01.659 --> 00:16:05.700 that Martin Sheen and I were the keynote speakers 00:16:05.700 --> 00:16:09.450 at the launching. of it for the international 00:16:09.450 --> 00:16:12.230 campaign to abolish nuclear weapons in Oslo in 00:16:12.230 --> 00:16:14.990 2012. It's one of the greatest experiences of 00:16:14.990 --> 00:16:17.490 our lives. And they were saying, so we're going 00:16:17.490 --> 00:16:19.250 to the UN and we're going to have a treaty to 00:16:19.250 --> 00:16:23.789 ban nuclear weapons. We laughed. And everything 00:16:23.789 --> 00:16:27.490 the great, great leaders from around the world 00:16:27.490 --> 00:16:32.289 told us in Oslo is coming true. So tell us about 00:16:32.289 --> 00:16:35.559 it and take your time. Absolutely. I'm so excited 00:16:35.559 --> 00:16:38.960 about this. I really wasn't apart. This was when 00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:45.700 you were in Oslo in 2013, 2014. It was just when 00:16:45.700 --> 00:16:48.500 I was beginning to be interested in nuclear weapons. 00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:53.000 But it just tickles me to know and to know that 00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:55.659 you were both there. And we actually have to 00:16:55.659 --> 00:16:58.440 get you back now. Now you have to help us bring 00:16:58.440 --> 00:17:02.370 the treaty. to really accomplish and reach all 00:17:02.370 --> 00:17:04.589 of its goals, which is the total elimination 00:17:04.589 --> 00:17:07.750 of nuclear weapons. So let me just say a few 00:17:07.750 --> 00:17:11.309 words about how the treaty started. It started 00:17:11.309 --> 00:17:16.170 with this effort to highlight the humanitarian 00:17:16.170 --> 00:17:19.809 consequences of nuclear weapons, to really focus 00:17:19.809 --> 00:17:24.920 on what nuclear weapons do to... as opposed to 00:17:24.920 --> 00:17:28.460 these sort of policy discussions about nuclear 00:17:28.460 --> 00:17:32.220 deterrence and security and so on and so forth. 00:17:32.460 --> 00:17:36.980 And that led to negotiations which were really 00:17:36.980 --> 00:17:44.859 primarily... led by a group of states from the 00:17:44.859 --> 00:17:48.619 Global South, including some notable exceptions 00:17:48.619 --> 00:17:54.519 from Europe, like Austria and Ireland and a few 00:17:54.519 --> 00:18:02.740 others. But what it has been is, in 2017, this 00:18:02.740 --> 00:18:06.920 treaty was negotiated without the nuclear weapons 00:18:06.920 --> 00:18:12.180 states. in the room. And it was negotiated to 00:18:12.180 --> 00:18:16.019 really just ban anything and everything having 00:18:16.019 --> 00:18:19.700 to do with nuclear weapons. And the treaty then 00:18:19.700 --> 00:18:23.579 entered into force. The negotiations were in 00:18:23.579 --> 00:18:29.039 July of 2017. It was open for signatures of states 00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:35.180 in September of 2017. And then it entered into 00:18:35.180 --> 00:18:40.329 force. in January of 2021. So this was just in 00:18:40.329 --> 00:18:46.009 the midst of the global pandemic. Over 50 states 00:18:46.009 --> 00:18:50.309 by that point had not just signed, but also ratified 00:18:50.309 --> 00:18:54.549 the treaty. And we currently just recently reached 00:18:54.549 --> 00:19:00.450 99 states, UN member states, that have either 00:19:00.450 --> 00:19:04.579 ratified the treaty, that means Their legislative 00:19:04.579 --> 00:19:11.380 bodies have basically now committed to adhering 00:19:11.380 --> 00:19:14.740 to everything that the treaty spells out in legal 00:19:14.740 --> 00:19:19.779 terms. And then a smaller group of states are 00:19:19.779 --> 00:19:25.799 also signatories and are working towards ratification. 00:19:25.819 --> 00:19:31.059 So that's a total of 99 ratifying and signatory 00:19:31.059 --> 00:19:36.180 states. And the treaty, again, has provisions 00:19:36.180 --> 00:19:41.319 for elimination of nuclear weapons. It bans other 00:19:41.319 --> 00:19:45.400 kinds of activities having to do with nuclear 00:19:45.400 --> 00:19:47.900 weapons, including, for example, threatening 00:19:47.900 --> 00:19:50.480 to use nuclear weapons, which is something that, 00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:56.720 as I said, we currently see and have seen, especially 00:19:56.720 --> 00:20:00.720 over the last few years. And the treaty also, 00:20:00.940 --> 00:20:05.319 very importantly, has provisions that are referred 00:20:05.319 --> 00:20:08.819 to as humanitarian provisions to assist victims 00:20:08.819 --> 00:20:12.839 and remediate environments impacted by nuclear 00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:16.680 weapons use and nuclear weapons testing. And 00:20:16.680 --> 00:20:22.000 so this is, again, an international treaty and 00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:26.180 agreement among states. that currently has more 00:20:26.180 --> 00:20:33.140 than one half of all UN member states as supporting 00:20:33.140 --> 00:20:39.430 it. And it's a process that will continue. You 00:20:39.430 --> 00:20:42.829 know, for a number of years, for really however 00:20:42.829 --> 00:20:45.950 long it takes to eliminate nuclear weapons. And 00:20:45.950 --> 00:20:50.450 my view is that we're never going to actually 00:20:50.450 --> 00:20:53.849 have another treaty that brings everyone to the 00:20:53.849 --> 00:20:56.890 table. And that's really what you need. You need 00:20:56.890 --> 00:21:00.769 a treaty that's going to have everybody agree 00:21:00.769 --> 00:21:04.190 to the fact that these weapons have no place. 00:21:04.809 --> 00:21:09.450 In our world, of course, the challenge now is 00:21:09.450 --> 00:21:14.309 to bring those states that possess nuclear weapons 00:21:14.309 --> 00:21:20.650 to the table. And this is what so many people, 00:21:20.690 --> 00:21:25.309 both in the diplomatic world, but also in civil 00:21:25.309 --> 00:21:30.140 society. are working on. How do we bring other 00:21:30.140 --> 00:21:34.420 states? One of the things that the Nuclear Age 00:21:34.420 --> 00:21:37.000 Peace Foundation has been doing on this front 00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:41.960 is really sort of using and thinking about the 00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:46.740 humanitarian provisions of the TPNW. and using 00:21:46.740 --> 00:21:51.400 them as a kind of avenue to engage states in 00:21:51.400 --> 00:21:56.339 discussions about disarmament and to bring them 00:21:56.339 --> 00:22:00.660 to the table. And we've done a very good job 00:22:00.660 --> 00:22:04.640 working with some of the states on this. Let 00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:07.700 me ask you about the strategy and the goal. And 00:22:07.700 --> 00:22:10.140 you tell me if I'm right. I mentioned this to 00:22:10.140 --> 00:22:13.460 you when I saw you a few weeks ago. So this goes 00:22:13.460 --> 00:22:16.599 back to when we were in Oslo, because we didn't 00:22:16.599 --> 00:22:20.180 quite know what we were entering into there. 00:22:20.920 --> 00:22:24.400 And here we are meeting these prestigious diplomats, 00:22:24.420 --> 00:22:28.920 the leading global visionaries and advocates 00:22:28.920 --> 00:22:31.970 for nuclear disarmament. And it's the launch 00:22:31.970 --> 00:22:34.569 of the humanitarian campaign, as you said, and 00:22:34.569 --> 00:22:37.369 ICANN, the National Campaign to Abolish Nuclear 00:22:37.369 --> 00:22:41.049 Weapons. But behind it were all the people who 00:22:41.049 --> 00:22:44.109 had banned landmines in the 90s, who had brought 00:22:44.109 --> 00:22:47.230 Princess Diana in. Now, the whole world knows 00:22:47.230 --> 00:22:50.210 that story. But you can't get rid of landmines. 00:22:50.410 --> 00:22:54.089 There's no treaty. You can't do that. And these 00:22:54.089 --> 00:22:57.349 people, as I understand it, now, here's my take 00:22:57.349 --> 00:23:00.980 on this, why this is so important. just decided 00:23:00.980 --> 00:23:04.339 in Norway in the 1980s, now we're going to get 00:23:04.339 --> 00:23:06.680 rid of landmines. And here's how we're going 00:23:06.680 --> 00:23:08.220 to do it. We're going to come up with a treaty 00:23:08.220 --> 00:23:11.160 and we're going to get everybody in the world 00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:13.750 who doesn't have landmines. landmines to sign 00:23:13.750 --> 00:23:18.029 it until we slowly come up to the last whatever 00:23:18.029 --> 00:23:21.369 20 nations in the united nations and we shame 00:23:21.369 --> 00:23:24.170 them into it and it was during that part in the 00:23:24.170 --> 00:23:27.990 1990s that diana got involved and then if you 00:23:27.990 --> 00:23:31.450 weren't against nuclear weapons i mean landmines 00:23:31.450 --> 00:23:34.630 landmines you you certainly changed very quickly 00:23:34.630 --> 00:23:37.650 and so then these same people go okay we got 00:23:37.650 --> 00:23:40.230 rid of landmines and you know the cleanup continues 00:23:40.230 --> 00:23:44.759 now we're gonna take on cluster bombs. And you 00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:46.579 go, well, you can't get rid of cluster bombs. 00:23:46.740 --> 00:23:50.279 And they did the same thing. And there we were 00:23:50.279 --> 00:23:54.200 in Oslo, and these same people were telling Martin 00:23:54.200 --> 00:23:57.200 Sheen and me, and so now we've decided to take 00:23:57.200 --> 00:24:00.500 on nuclear weapons. So as I understand it, Ivana, 00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:04.920 the strategy is, and we couldn't even imagine 00:24:04.920 --> 00:24:07.700 this 13 years ago, they were saying, we're going 00:24:07.700 --> 00:24:11.809 to get 150 nations of the world to sign a treaty 00:24:11.809 --> 00:24:16.069 at the United Nations, totally outlawing nuclear 00:24:16.069 --> 00:24:19.980 weapons. And then you have the five. Nuclear 00:24:19.980 --> 00:24:22.799 powers, but there's actually nine, as you said. 00:24:22.900 --> 00:24:26.640 And we're going to shame them into signing and 00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:29.640 get rid of nukes. And this is going to work. 00:24:29.819 --> 00:24:32.640 And I remember so many times Martin Sheen and 00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:35.000 I looked at each other. We were like, well, good 00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:37.720 luck with that. And here you're telling me that 00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:41.819 just in the last few weeks, 99 nations have signed 00:24:41.819 --> 00:24:44.400 it. And like everything they said they were going 00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:48.799 to do 13 years ago is playing out. It's right 00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:51.740 actually on track. Is that a good take on the 00:24:51.740 --> 00:24:53.460 whole situation? It's an excellent description. 00:24:53.660 --> 00:24:57.579 I would just say that it was actually a new group 00:24:57.579 --> 00:25:01.960 of people focusing on nuclear weapons, but saying, 00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:04.779 well, not completely new. There's certainly some 00:25:04.779 --> 00:25:09.519 overlap, but a lot of actually very young people. 00:25:09.640 --> 00:25:11.900 Yes. And you probably remember that. Yeah, I 00:25:11.900 --> 00:25:13.880 do remember that. So some of them weren't even 00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:18.180 old enough to be around for the landmines. But 00:25:18.180 --> 00:25:21.059 they were inspired by it. But they were inspired 00:25:21.059 --> 00:25:24.380 by it. And it is this recognition that even if 00:25:24.380 --> 00:25:27.380 you don't have a certain kind of weapon, you 00:25:27.380 --> 00:25:31.900 have the power inside the United Nations, inside 00:25:31.900 --> 00:25:36.279 the international community to say, no, this 00:25:36.279 --> 00:25:42.799 is wrong. And what's even more so true for the 00:25:42.799 --> 00:25:47.349 nuclear weapons. Because what I stated wasn't 00:25:47.349 --> 00:25:50.069 an exaggeration, that nuclear weapons would quite 00:25:50.069 --> 00:25:52.829 literally, nuclear war could kill billions of 00:25:52.829 --> 00:25:55.569 people. It's the recognition that these states 00:25:55.569 --> 00:25:59.190 that don't have these weapons wouldn't even be 00:25:59.190 --> 00:26:02.630 attacked by the weapons, but would absolutely 00:26:02.630 --> 00:26:06.150 collapse and be destroyed. And their people... 00:26:06.599 --> 00:26:10.240 would be dying and starving to death and exposed 00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:14.000 to radiation, recognizing that actually your 00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:17.519 weapons threaten all of us, and that's not okay. 00:26:17.759 --> 00:26:22.259 I'm so glad you brought up the young people, 00:26:22.339 --> 00:26:27.599 because so many of them were from Scandinavia 00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:31.509 and Europe, but also other places. Australia, 00:26:31.809 --> 00:26:35.349 yeah. But not from the United States. And their 00:26:35.349 --> 00:26:38.829 perspective was so different. Well, I mean, just 00:26:38.829 --> 00:26:43.089 generally. We're there. I know, I know. We're 00:26:43.089 --> 00:26:46.230 absolutely there. And I should say one other 00:26:46.230 --> 00:26:49.799 group of people. have been people who've been 00:26:49.799 --> 00:26:53.160 impacted by nuclear weapons, starting, of course, 00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:56.240 with the hibakusha from Japan, the survivors 00:26:56.240 --> 00:26:59.759 of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, 00:26:59.859 --> 00:27:04.200 but also... what we refer to as affected communities 00:27:04.200 --> 00:27:07.700 from places like the Marshall Islands. Yes, of 00:27:07.700 --> 00:27:10.420 course. And the Republic of Kiribati and French 00:27:10.420 --> 00:27:14.440 Polynesia and Australia and Kazakhstan and Algeria. 00:27:14.440 --> 00:27:17.059 I mean, the list is endless. Also here in the 00:27:17.059 --> 00:27:20.349 United States, the downwinders. from the American 00:27:20.349 --> 00:27:23.730 Southwest, but really all of the United States 00:27:23.730 --> 00:27:27.869 was exposed to radiation fallout from the Nevada 00:27:27.869 --> 00:27:32.569 test. Thank you, thank you. It's a huge community 00:27:32.569 --> 00:27:37.289 of people who really just see these weapons as 00:27:37.289 --> 00:27:41.670 immoral and as the ultimate threat. And just 00:27:41.670 --> 00:27:44.309 to connect to what you were saying about landmines 00:27:44.309 --> 00:27:47.630 and cluster munitions. With nuclear weapons, 00:27:47.950 --> 00:27:51.589 again, these are weapons of mass destruction. 00:27:52.069 --> 00:27:55.970 And the other two types of weapons of mass destruction, 00:27:56.329 --> 00:28:00.269 the biological weapons and chemical weapons, 00:28:00.410 --> 00:28:03.849 have both been outlawed. The United States just 00:28:03.849 --> 00:28:07.470 in the last year or so actually destroyed its 00:28:07.470 --> 00:28:12.109 last stockpile of chemical weapons. We had chemical 00:28:12.109 --> 00:28:15.450 weapons up until like... You know, a year or 00:28:15.450 --> 00:28:19.170 so ago. And we've destroyed them. And nuclear 00:28:19.170 --> 00:28:23.849 weapons absolutely have to be treated with that 00:28:23.849 --> 00:28:26.289 same recognition. That's great. Thank you. This 00:28:26.289 --> 00:28:30.210 is just not acceptable. Well, see, that's very, 00:28:30.269 --> 00:28:34.400 very hopeful and good news. That's why I want 00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:37.819 everyone to know about the treaty. And also in 00:28:37.819 --> 00:28:40.720 this kind of hopeless time, there's a lot of 00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:42.759 hope there. I was just going to make a little 00:28:42.759 --> 00:28:46.640 comment that the young people we met in Europe 00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:49.000 brought a new energy that I hadn't really seen 00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:52.900 in the United States, like in decades, where 00:28:52.900 --> 00:28:55.670 they just felt this is... Doable and we're going 00:28:55.670 --> 00:28:58.589 to do it. And I hope that can become contagious 00:28:58.589 --> 00:29:01.630 among young people in the U .S. Absolutely. And 00:29:01.630 --> 00:29:05.309 I really would love to have you and Martin come 00:29:05.309 --> 00:29:09.049 to New York next year when we will have the TPNW 00:29:09.049 --> 00:29:12.789 first review conference. Yeah. That will be in 00:29:12.789 --> 00:29:16.109 November of next year. If you can come and see 00:29:16.109 --> 00:29:20.769 the energy and see the commitment and. talk to 00:29:20.769 --> 00:29:23.490 people who've been personally affected by these 00:29:23.490 --> 00:29:27.809 weapons or their families have been, and talk 00:29:27.809 --> 00:29:32.049 to diplomats working every day to ensure that 00:29:32.049 --> 00:29:34.349 we can get to a world free of nuclear weapons, 00:29:34.410 --> 00:29:37.130 I think you would really love it. Because now 00:29:37.130 --> 00:29:40.730 we're at a whole new stage and phase of this 00:29:40.730 --> 00:29:44.160 effort. Let me ask you about yourself because 00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:48.019 we're running out of time here. You have this 00:29:48.019 --> 00:29:52.960 very big, busy life with your family and postdoctoral 00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:56.460 chemistry research at Columbia and you're teaching 00:29:56.460 --> 00:29:59.420 and you're the president of the Nuclear Age Peace 00:29:59.420 --> 00:30:01.460 Foundation. You're living there in Manhattan, 00:30:01.519 --> 00:30:03.880 running back and forth to the UN and then to 00:30:03.880 --> 00:30:07.980 Geneva and then to Oslo and Columbia. How do 00:30:07.980 --> 00:30:12.420 you maintain? Peace and balance and hope. Where 00:30:12.420 --> 00:30:15.099 do you find strength these days to keep going 00:30:15.099 --> 00:30:19.279 forward? It's a great question. I think I have 00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:25.380 a really, in some sense, a heightened sense of 00:30:25.380 --> 00:30:29.819 having been very privileged. You read my biography. 00:30:30.380 --> 00:30:34.279 I grew up in former Yugoslavia. I was very fortunate 00:30:34.279 --> 00:30:38.559 to come to the United States. get to study here 00:30:38.559 --> 00:30:41.319 at some of the world's best universities. And 00:30:41.319 --> 00:30:45.839 as a scientist, I really feel very compelled 00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:50.099 to contribute to this effort because, you know, 00:30:50.099 --> 00:30:54.259 sadly, it was scientists and science that brought 00:30:54.259 --> 00:30:56.940 nuclear weapons to our world. And I strongly 00:30:56.940 --> 00:30:59.420 believe that scientists have to be a part of 00:30:59.420 --> 00:31:02.059 the solution, which is to get rid of them. And 00:31:02.059 --> 00:31:04.079 also, you mentioned my family. I'm a mother. 00:31:04.140 --> 00:31:06.559 I have three. I mean, two of my children are... 00:31:06.890 --> 00:31:10.769 Our young adults, my daughter is 24, I have a 00:31:10.769 --> 00:31:13.150 son who is 20, and I have one in high school 00:31:13.150 --> 00:31:17.230 who is still 14. And, you know, as a mother, 00:31:17.289 --> 00:31:22.950 I would want nothing more than to leave them 00:31:22.950 --> 00:31:26.329 a world free of nuclear weapons. Anything else, 00:31:26.390 --> 00:31:28.849 you know, if I can leave them something else 00:31:28.849 --> 00:31:32.690 in addition, great. But if I can be sure that 00:31:32.690 --> 00:31:36.369 they can continue to live in a world that is 00:31:36.369 --> 00:31:40.289 not, you know, potentially minutes away from 00:31:40.289 --> 00:31:43.250 total and complete destruction. That would just 00:31:43.250 --> 00:31:47.130 be everything for me. Thank you. And I work with 00:31:47.130 --> 00:31:50.269 young people, and that's really where I find 00:31:50.269 --> 00:31:53.829 hope and inspiration and a kind of commitment 00:31:53.829 --> 00:31:58.289 to keep going at this until we get the job done. 00:31:58.869 --> 00:32:02.859 So many of our listeners have been involved in 00:32:02.859 --> 00:32:05.460 the nuclear disarmament movement and peace movements. 00:32:05.740 --> 00:32:09.519 But for folks who are listening today, what suggestions 00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:13.000 would you have about where they can go to learn 00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:15.759 more about it, or what actual concrete steps 00:32:15.759 --> 00:32:20.980 they can take to support the UN treaty, ban the 00:32:20.980 --> 00:32:25.279 Nuclear Age Peace Foundation, or efforts in general 00:32:25.279 --> 00:32:27.779 for nuclear disarmament? What can people do? 00:32:28.970 --> 00:32:31.089 Absolutely. That's a great question, John, and 00:32:31.089 --> 00:32:33.569 it's a question that we get all the time. I mean, 00:32:33.589 --> 00:32:37.710 I think for members of the audience who really 00:32:37.710 --> 00:32:41.750 do understand the issue, you know, that's fine 00:32:41.750 --> 00:32:44.650 and you can always learn more. I am amazed by, 00:32:44.789 --> 00:32:49.029 you know, how dedicated I feel I have been to 00:32:49.029 --> 00:32:51.990 the issue and yet how much I can literally learn 00:32:51.990 --> 00:32:55.559 every single day. whether it has to do with the 00:32:55.559 --> 00:32:58.460 history or the science or whatever. And if you 00:32:58.460 --> 00:33:02.619 aren't, if you're new to this topic, just learn, 00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:05.559 learn, learn, I think is absolutely key. And 00:33:05.559 --> 00:33:08.720 people just talking about this and this being 00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:12.099 part of our everyday conversations. And then 00:33:12.099 --> 00:33:14.480 there are, of course, our elected representatives 00:33:14.480 --> 00:33:19.599 and contacting them and contacting the White 00:33:19.599 --> 00:33:24.829 House, I think under any administration. is absolutely 00:33:24.829 --> 00:33:28.990 key. Our elected representatives need to know 00:33:28.990 --> 00:33:31.609 that the general public cares about this issue. 00:33:31.769 --> 00:33:36.690 And we've spoken, I've gone to D .C. many times 00:33:36.690 --> 00:33:39.990 and we speak with, mostly with staffers, occasionally 00:33:39.990 --> 00:33:44.809 with actual elected representatives. But when 00:33:44.809 --> 00:33:48.109 we speak with them, we learn that they don't 00:33:48.109 --> 00:33:52.009 need to hear from a thousand people that this 00:33:52.009 --> 00:33:56.200 is important. to them, they need to hear from 00:33:56.200 --> 00:34:01.079 10 people. So it's not a big number, but if you 00:34:01.079 --> 00:34:05.099 care, you need to let them know. People can support 00:34:05.099 --> 00:34:09.800 local initiatives. There are local organizations 00:34:09.800 --> 00:34:12.619 that try to kind of do this at the grassroots 00:34:12.619 --> 00:34:18.280 level, and you can have sort of city resolutions 00:34:18.280 --> 00:34:22.719 or... Other kinds of divestment efforts, for 00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:26.039 example, that are local in nature and may be 00:34:26.039 --> 00:34:30.639 kind of easier to tackle. And supporting organizations 00:34:30.639 --> 00:34:33.900 that specifically work on disarmament, whether 00:34:33.900 --> 00:34:36.659 at the national or international level. And then 00:34:36.659 --> 00:34:39.980 just a recognition that really everyone can contribute. 00:34:40.139 --> 00:34:43.909 If you're an artist, make art about this. If 00:34:43.909 --> 00:34:46.969 you're a doctor, point out that you couldn't 00:34:46.969 --> 00:34:50.989 do your job in the aftermath of a nuclear war. 00:34:51.409 --> 00:34:55.769 Scientists, media, celebrities, teachers, everyone 00:34:55.769 --> 00:35:03.989 really has some way of making this topic. central 00:35:03.989 --> 00:35:07.829 to how we go forward. Because on the one hand, 00:35:07.869 --> 00:35:10.190 if we destroy the world, then none of the other 00:35:10.190 --> 00:35:13.050 issues we care about are going to matter. And 00:35:13.050 --> 00:35:17.510 on the other hand, until we actually stop investing, 00:35:17.969 --> 00:35:21.130 not just in weapons of mass destruction, like 00:35:21.130 --> 00:35:25.309 nuclear weapons, but other types of, you know, 00:35:25.349 --> 00:35:30.510 military and war making machines, and etc, we're 00:35:30.510 --> 00:35:33.840 not going to be able to address other challenges 00:35:33.840 --> 00:35:38.280 that we have that require people to cooperate 00:35:38.280 --> 00:35:42.800 across nations and so on. Well, our time is up. 00:35:42.860 --> 00:35:44.820 Is there anything else you'd like to say before 00:35:44.820 --> 00:35:49.320 we end, Ivana? No, I mean, I just really loved 00:35:49.320 --> 00:35:52.300 speaking with you. And I think, again, just to 00:35:52.300 --> 00:35:56.800 bring us back to the 1980s when there was this... 00:35:58.460 --> 00:36:02.440 upswelling of general public's engagement and 00:36:02.440 --> 00:36:04.699 involvement in this issue. This is what we need 00:36:04.699 --> 00:36:08.500 today. We need, once again, to come together 00:36:08.500 --> 00:36:12.139 and tell our leaders that enough is enough. Eighty 00:36:12.139 --> 00:36:17.340 years of the nuclear age has been more than enough. 00:36:17.869 --> 00:36:22.550 And we need to bring this issue to an end. Thank 00:36:22.550 --> 00:36:24.909 you so much, Ivana Hughes, for speaking with 00:36:24.909 --> 00:36:28.289 me today and for encouraging everyone to step 00:36:28.289 --> 00:36:31.650 up and keep the conversation going. We can all 00:36:31.650 --> 00:36:34.449 do what we can for nuclear discernment. And thank 00:36:34.449 --> 00:36:36.230 you, friends, for listening to the Nonviolent 00:36:36.230 --> 00:36:39.329 Jesus podcast. You can hear more podcasts and 00:36:39.329 --> 00:36:42.650 find other upcoming programs at beatitudescenter 00:36:42.650 --> 00:36:47.070 .org. 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