Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm
John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking
with my friend Ivana Hughes. This is a project
of BeatitudeCenter .org, where you can find many
other podcasts and regular Zoom programs on the
nonviolence of Jesus and practicing peace and
nonviolence and working for a more just, more
nonviolent, more peaceful world. So let's begin,
as usual, with just a little prayer. And I invite
you, wherever you are, just to take a deep breath
and relax and recenter yourself. And together,
let's enter into the presence of the God of peace
who loves you infinitely and personally and everyone
everywhere. And we welcome the nonviolent Jesus
here with us and take a moment to ask for whatever
graces you need to be a peacemaker and to do
the will of the God of peace. God of peace, thank
you for all the blessings of life, love, and
peace that you give us. Be with us now as we
reflect together on your call to be peacemakers.
and to work for a more just, more nonviolent
world. Bless us, inspire us, disarm us, strengthen
us, and send us out to do your will, to do our
part, to help end war itself and poverty, racism,
greed, injustice, and especially nuclear weapons
and environmental destruction, that we might
all be your holy peacemakers and welcome your
reign of universal love, nonviolence, and peace
on earth. Amen. So it's a great pleasure to welcome
my friend, Dr. Ivana Hughes, president of the
Nuclear Age Peace Foundation. Dr. Hughes is a
senior lecturer in the discipline of chemistry
at Columbia University in New York City. Dr.
Hughes obtained her PhD from Stanford University,
where she was an American Heart Association pre
-doctoral fellow. She has been a faculty member
at Columbia University since 2008 and was awarded
the Lenfest Distinguished Columbia Faculty Award
for 2020. Her work on ascertaining the radiological
conditions in the Marshall Islands has been covered
widely. She currently serves as a member of the
Scientific Advisory Group for the United Nations.
to the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons,
a committee consisting of 15 experts from around
the world who advise the state parties on scientific
issues as they pertain to the treaty. Her writings
have appeared in The Nation, The Bulletin of
Atomic Scientists, The Hill, Scientific and American,
Truthout, Common Dreams, The Diplomat, and elsewhere.
Dr. Ivana Hughes, welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus
podcast. Thank you so much, Father John. It's
really a pleasure and an honor to be with you
today. Thank you. And thanks for all the great
work you've been doing in your leadership for
nuclear disarmament. I'm going to talk about
that with you because... I don't know anything
about chemistry or the chem tables. That makes
me very scared even thinking about it. But you
are the president of one of the premier organizations
in the world advocating for nuclear discernment,
the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation, which people
can learn about at www .wagingpeace .org. So
let's just jump right into that, Ivana. Tell
us about the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation. Absolutely,
Father John. So the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation
was founded in 1982, so we're nearing our 43rd
birthday or anniversary. It was founded by really
a few visionary people, including David Krieger,
who was a longtime president of the foundation
and who passed away in 2023, and Frank A. Kelly.
This is a group of people who realized... that
in the nuclear age, peace wasn't just a moral
imperative. It was actually an existential imperative.
And so they wanted to form an organization that
would be, in some sense, flexible in the way
in which it would approach these issues, but
also really stay true to the goal, the vision
of a world free of nuclear weapons. And so over
the decades, the mission has really remained
the same. I took the helm of the foundation in
2022 and essentially didn't change anything about
what we aim to do. which is to educate and advocate
for a just and peaceful world, one that is free
of nuclear weapons, as far and wide as we possibly
can. Over the decades, there have been a number
of initiatives that NAPF either was a part of
or had spearheaded, including, I'll just mention
a few of them, the Waging Peace Series, which
in the early years, the early decades, sort of
brought to the fore some of the issues that are
so specific to the nuclear age as a whole and
to nuclear weapons in particular. The foundation
was also engaged in efforts such as the Middle
States Power Initiative. This was a kind of international
effort to bring those states that do not possess
nuclear weapons but still have a kind of clout
in the world to advocate for disarmament. There
was another initiative which we... called the
Nuclear Zero Lawsuits. This was in the 2010s,
working with the government of the Republic of
the Marshall Islands. You actually mentioned
that I have done scientific research on trying
to understand the radiological conditions in
the Marshall Islands, which were, and many in
your audience might know this, the site of U
.S. nuclear testing from 1946 to 1958. But in
the 2010s, the Republic of the Marshall Islands
decided that they wanted to actually sue nuclear
-armed states, not for what had actually happened
during the nuclear testing period, but for their
failure to disarm, which is actually an obligation
of, in particular, five nuclear weapons states
that are recognized. by the Nuclear Non -Proliferation
Treaty. And so that was another initiative. And
more recently, since I took the helm of the foundation,
we've really been very focused on multilateral
processes at the United Nations. You mentioned
the treaty on the... prohibition of nuclear weapons,
and I'll be happy to speak about it a little
bit more. But we do, we try to bring disarmament
into, and in particular nuclear disarmament,
into other fora, including United Nations General
Assembly, including other disarmament meetings
like the Nuclear Non -Proliferation Treaty, as
well as really a whole host of kind of... Discussions
that take place at the UN around issues like
sustainability, the health of our oceans, information
and communications technologies, so many of these
issues actually have links to the fundamental
problem of having weapons in our world that are
quite simply capable of destroying it. And so
that has really been, you know, our our focus
again over the decades and and really something
that I'm very, very much committed to in my still
fairly, you know, young presidency and leadership
of the foundation. Yes. Thank you. It's very
hard to talk about nuclear weapons and the possibility
and reality of nuclear war. I think we have to.
And having you here is a great gift. We're closer
than ever before to nuclear war. We continue
to spend trillions maintaining and building these
weapons instead of using those funds for justice
and the needs of the global poor. So I want to
ask you briefly to talk from your perspective
about the threat of nuclear war today, late 2025.
I think the threat is absolutely enormous. I
think this is something that could not just happen
quite literally tomorrow or next week or next
month or in a year, but something that would
also happen, I think it's so important for people
to know and recognize this, that would happen
in a matter of minutes. Actually, next week.
Netflix will release a new film by Catherine
Bigelow, the Oscar -winning film director, called
The House of Dynamite. And I encourage everyone
who has a chance to see it because it describes
a scenario that makes it very, very clear that
nuclear war is the kind of existential threat
that's going to take place in a matter of minutes.
I think what, of course, you will recall the
days of the, you know, in the 80s and the very,
very heightened nuclear arms race at the time
there were on the order of 70 ,000 nuclear warheads,
most of them in the possession of the United
States and the Soviet Union. And, of course,
it was an extremely dangerous time. In fact,
many people who've... sort of studied and looked
at the history of the nuclear age, really believed
that we, for the most part, we actually just
got really lucky. The nuclear war never happened.
There were many, many close calls. But that,
of course, led to, by the end of the 80s and
early 90s, the collapse of the Soviet Union,
huge nuclear arms reductions. agreements between
the United States and Russia and so on. And we
are currently at 12 ,500 nuclear warheads, which
is, of course, a whole lot better than 70 ,000,
but still enough to destroy the world over and
over and over again. And what I think is really...
key to recognize is that the dynamics have actually
changed. It is no longer just a cold war between
two superpowers. There are today nine nuclear
-armed states, five of them, again, recognized
by the United Nations as nuclear weapons states.
That's United States, Russia, United Kingdom,
France, and China, and then four others. that
possess nuclear arms, which is Israel, India,
Pakistan, and North Korea. And that's a lot more.
As I said, the U .S. and Russia still have most
of the world's largest arsenals, and I estimated
at about 90 % of the world's arsenals. But it
is a lot more complex. of a playing field when
you have nine states possessing these weapons,
some which are real, you know, hardcore adversaries.
We saw just this year, India and Pakistan literally
on the verge of war and the word nuclear war,
you know, being... openly discussed as it has
been since the onset of the Russian invasion
of Ukraine in 2022. And of course, the Middle
East conflict where we're thankfully celebrating
some good news this week. And I'm keeping my
fingers crossed that this continues on the same
trajectory. In the Middle East, we have Israel,
which also has nuclear weapons, and we saw all
that happened that took place between Israel
and Iran, as well as the United States, also
earlier this year. So it's a very challenging
time. You know, it's often described in United
Nations, you know, lingo as a challenging security
environment. And I think, you know, often when
I try to speak to leaders, diplomats and so on,
I get answers like, well, now is not a time for
disarmament. And my answer is actually now is
precisely the time for disarmament, because now
we see that we see how. Easily, these weapons
could end up being used in times of conflict,
in times of heightened tensions, in times when
maybe you think you're being attacked. Maybe
you're not even under attack, but you think you
are, and you end up using one of these weapons.
And what we do know is that when you use one,
it doesn't end there. It goes all the way to
full -blown nuclear war, which would have...
hundreds of millions of people dying from the
explosions themselves, and then billions more
from the aftermath of the explosions, from things
like nuclear winter and ozone layer destruction
and radiation and so on. So this is quite simply
not, you know, it's like playing, people who
refer to this as nuclear roulette, you know,
just sort of continuing to play this game without
recognizing that actually humanity cannot coexist
with nuclear weapons. Thank you. Yes. It's an
existential threat, as you said. Absolutely.
One of the great signs of hope in the whole world
right now, and where there seem to be so few,
is I think the United Nations Treaty, the Treaty
to Ban Nuclear Weapons, which you are actively
a part of. And so I would love you to tell us
all about the treaty and what it means, what's
the latest news, what the strategy is. You know
that Martin Sheen and I were the keynote speakers
at the launching. of it for the international
campaign to abolish nuclear weapons in Oslo in
2012. It's one of the greatest experiences of
our lives. And they were saying, so we're going
to the UN and we're going to have a treaty to
ban nuclear weapons. We laughed. And everything
the great, great leaders from around the world
told us in Oslo is coming true. So tell us about
it and take your time. Absolutely. I'm so excited
about this. I really wasn't apart. This was when
you were in Oslo in 2013, 2014. It was just when
I was beginning to be interested in nuclear weapons.
But it just tickles me to know and to know that
you were both there. And we actually have to
get you back now. Now you have to help us bring
the treaty. to really accomplish and reach all
of its goals, which is the total elimination
of nuclear weapons. So let me just say a few
words about how the treaty started. It started
with this effort to highlight the humanitarian
consequences of nuclear weapons, to really focus
on what nuclear weapons do to... as opposed to
these sort of policy discussions about nuclear
deterrence and security and so on and so forth.
And that led to negotiations which were really
primarily... led by a group of states from the
Global South, including some notable exceptions
from Europe, like Austria and Ireland and a few
others. But what it has been is, in 2017, this
treaty was negotiated without the nuclear weapons
states. in the room. And it was negotiated to
really just ban anything and everything having
to do with nuclear weapons. And the treaty then
entered into force. The negotiations were in
July of 2017. It was open for signatures of states
in September of 2017. And then it entered into
force. in January of 2021. So this was just in
the midst of the global pandemic. Over 50 states
by that point had not just signed, but also ratified
the treaty. And we currently just recently reached
99 states, UN member states, that have either
ratified the treaty, that means Their legislative
bodies have basically now committed to adhering
to everything that the treaty spells out in legal
terms. And then a smaller group of states are
also signatories and are working towards ratification.
So that's a total of 99 ratifying and signatory
states. And the treaty, again, has provisions
for elimination of nuclear weapons. It bans other
kinds of activities having to do with nuclear
weapons, including, for example, threatening
to use nuclear weapons, which is something that,
as I said, we currently see and have seen, especially
over the last few years. And the treaty also,
very importantly, has provisions that are referred
to as humanitarian provisions to assist victims
and remediate environments impacted by nuclear
weapons use and nuclear weapons testing. And
so this is, again, an international treaty and
agreement among states. that currently has more
than one half of all UN member states as supporting
it. And it's a process that will continue. You
know, for a number of years, for really however
long it takes to eliminate nuclear weapons. And
my view is that we're never going to actually
have another treaty that brings everyone to the
table. And that's really what you need. You need
a treaty that's going to have everybody agree
to the fact that these weapons have no place.
In our world, of course, the challenge now is
to bring those states that possess nuclear weapons
to the table. And this is what so many people,
both in the diplomatic world, but also in civil
society. are working on. How do we bring other
states? One of the things that the Nuclear Age
Peace Foundation has been doing on this front
is really sort of using and thinking about the
humanitarian provisions of the TPNW. and using
them as a kind of avenue to engage states in
discussions about disarmament and to bring them
to the table. And we've done a very good job
working with some of the states on this. Let
me ask you about the strategy and the goal. And
you tell me if I'm right. I mentioned this to
you when I saw you a few weeks ago. So this goes
back to when we were in Oslo, because we didn't
quite know what we were entering into there.
And here we are meeting these prestigious diplomats,
the leading global visionaries and advocates
for nuclear disarmament. And it's the launch
of the humanitarian campaign, as you said, and
ICANN, the National Campaign to Abolish Nuclear
Weapons. But behind it were all the people who
had banned landmines in the 90s, who had brought
Princess Diana in. Now, the whole world knows
that story. But you can't get rid of landmines.
There's no treaty. You can't do that. And these
people, as I understand it, now, here's my take
on this, why this is so important. just decided
in Norway in the 1980s, now we're going to get
rid of landmines. And here's how we're going
to do it. We're going to come up with a treaty
and we're going to get everybody in the world
who doesn't have landmines. landmines to sign
it until we slowly come up to the last whatever
20 nations in the united nations and we shame
them into it and it was during that part in the
1990s that diana got involved and then if you
weren't against nuclear weapons i mean landmines
landmines you you certainly changed very quickly
and so then these same people go okay we got
rid of landmines and you know the cleanup continues
now we're gonna take on cluster bombs. And you
go, well, you can't get rid of cluster bombs.
And they did the same thing. And there we were
in Oslo, and these same people were telling Martin
Sheen and me, and so now we've decided to take
on nuclear weapons. So as I understand it, Ivana,
the strategy is, and we couldn't even imagine
this 13 years ago, they were saying, we're going
to get 150 nations of the world to sign a treaty
at the United Nations, totally outlawing nuclear
weapons. And then you have the five. Nuclear
powers, but there's actually nine, as you said.
And we're going to shame them into signing and
get rid of nukes. And this is going to work.
And I remember so many times Martin Sheen and
I looked at each other. We were like, well, good
luck with that. And here you're telling me that
just in the last few weeks, 99 nations have signed
it. And like everything they said they were going
to do 13 years ago is playing out. It's right
actually on track. Is that a good take on the
whole situation? It's an excellent description.
I would just say that it was actually a new group
of people focusing on nuclear weapons, but saying,
well, not completely new. There's certainly some
overlap, but a lot of actually very young people.
Yes. And you probably remember that. Yeah, I
do remember that. So some of them weren't even
old enough to be around for the landmines. But
they were inspired by it. But they were inspired
by it. And it is this recognition that even if
you don't have a certain kind of weapon, you
have the power inside the United Nations, inside
the international community to say, no, this
is wrong. And what's even more so true for the
nuclear weapons. Because what I stated wasn't
an exaggeration, that nuclear weapons would quite
literally, nuclear war could kill billions of
people. It's the recognition that these states
that don't have these weapons wouldn't even be
attacked by the weapons, but would absolutely
collapse and be destroyed. And their people...
would be dying and starving to death and exposed
to radiation, recognizing that actually your
weapons threaten all of us, and that's not okay.
I'm so glad you brought up the young people,
because so many of them were from Scandinavia
and Europe, but also other places. Australia,
yeah. But not from the United States. And their
perspective was so different. Well, I mean, just
generally. We're there. I know, I know. We're
absolutely there. And I should say one other
group of people. have been people who've been
impacted by nuclear weapons, starting, of course,
with the hibakusha from Japan, the survivors
of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki,
but also... what we refer to as affected communities
from places like the Marshall Islands. Yes, of
course. And the Republic of Kiribati and French
Polynesia and Australia and Kazakhstan and Algeria.
I mean, the list is endless. Also here in the
United States, the downwinders. from the American
Southwest, but really all of the United States
was exposed to radiation fallout from the Nevada
test. Thank you, thank you. It's a huge community
of people who really just see these weapons as
immoral and as the ultimate threat. And just
to connect to what you were saying about landmines
and cluster munitions. With nuclear weapons,
again, these are weapons of mass destruction.
And the other two types of weapons of mass destruction,
the biological weapons and chemical weapons,
have both been outlawed. The United States just
in the last year or so actually destroyed its
last stockpile of chemical weapons. We had chemical
weapons up until like... You know, a year or
so ago. And we've destroyed them. And nuclear
weapons absolutely have to be treated with that
same recognition. That's great. Thank you. This
is just not acceptable. Well, see, that's very,
very hopeful and good news. That's why I want
everyone to know about the treaty. And also in
this kind of hopeless time, there's a lot of
hope there. I was just going to make a little
comment that the young people we met in Europe
brought a new energy that I hadn't really seen
in the United States, like in decades, where
they just felt this is... Doable and we're going
to do it. And I hope that can become contagious
among young people in the U .S. Absolutely. And
I really would love to have you and Martin come
to New York next year when we will have the TPNW
first review conference. Yeah. That will be in
November of next year. If you can come and see
the energy and see the commitment and. talk to
people who've been personally affected by these
weapons or their families have been, and talk
to diplomats working every day to ensure that
we can get to a world free of nuclear weapons,
I think you would really love it. Because now
we're at a whole new stage and phase of this
effort. Let me ask you about yourself because
we're running out of time here. You have this
very big, busy life with your family and postdoctoral
chemistry research at Columbia and you're teaching
and you're the president of the Nuclear Age Peace
Foundation. You're living there in Manhattan,
running back and forth to the UN and then to
Geneva and then to Oslo and Columbia. How do
you maintain? Peace and balance and hope. Where
do you find strength these days to keep going
forward? It's a great question. I think I have
a really, in some sense, a heightened sense of
having been very privileged. You read my biography.
I grew up in former Yugoslavia. I was very fortunate
to come to the United States. get to study here
at some of the world's best universities. And
as a scientist, I really feel very compelled
to contribute to this effort because, you know,
sadly, it was scientists and science that brought
nuclear weapons to our world. And I strongly
believe that scientists have to be a part of
the solution, which is to get rid of them. And
also, you mentioned my family. I'm a mother.
I have three. I mean, two of my children are...
Our young adults, my daughter is 24, I have a
son who is 20, and I have one in high school
who is still 14. And, you know, as a mother,
I would want nothing more than to leave them
a world free of nuclear weapons. Anything else,
you know, if I can leave them something else
in addition, great. But if I can be sure that
they can continue to live in a world that is
not, you know, potentially minutes away from
total and complete destruction. That would just
be everything for me. Thank you. And I work with
young people, and that's really where I find
hope and inspiration and a kind of commitment
to keep going at this until we get the job done.
So many of our listeners have been involved in
the nuclear disarmament movement and peace movements.
But for folks who are listening today, what suggestions
would you have about where they can go to learn
more about it, or what actual concrete steps
they can take to support the UN treaty, ban the
Nuclear Age Peace Foundation, or efforts in general
for nuclear disarmament? What can people do?
Absolutely. That's a great question, John, and
it's a question that we get all the time. I mean,
I think for members of the audience who really
do understand the issue, you know, that's fine
and you can always learn more. I am amazed by,
you know, how dedicated I feel I have been to
the issue and yet how much I can literally learn
every single day. whether it has to do with the
history or the science or whatever. And if you
aren't, if you're new to this topic, just learn,
learn, learn, I think is absolutely key. And
people just talking about this and this being
part of our everyday conversations. And then
there are, of course, our elected representatives
and contacting them and contacting the White
House, I think under any administration. is absolutely
key. Our elected representatives need to know
that the general public cares about this issue.
And we've spoken, I've gone to D .C. many times
and we speak with, mostly with staffers, occasionally
with actual elected representatives. But when
we speak with them, we learn that they don't
need to hear from a thousand people that this
is important. to them, they need to hear from
10 people. So it's not a big number, but if you
care, you need to let them know. People can support
local initiatives. There are local organizations
that try to kind of do this at the grassroots
level, and you can have sort of city resolutions
or... Other kinds of divestment efforts, for
example, that are local in nature and may be
kind of easier to tackle. And supporting organizations
that specifically work on disarmament, whether
at the national or international level. And then
just a recognition that really everyone can contribute.
If you're an artist, make art about this. If
you're a doctor, point out that you couldn't
do your job in the aftermath of a nuclear war.
Scientists, media, celebrities, teachers, everyone
really has some way of making this topic. central
to how we go forward. Because on the one hand,
if we destroy the world, then none of the other
issues we care about are going to matter. And
on the other hand, until we actually stop investing,
not just in weapons of mass destruction, like
nuclear weapons, but other types of, you know,
military and war making machines, and etc, we're
not going to be able to address other challenges
that we have that require people to cooperate
across nations and so on. Well, our time is up.
Is there anything else you'd like to say before
we end, Ivana? No, I mean, I just really loved
speaking with you. And I think, again, just to
bring us back to the 1980s when there was this...
upswelling of general public's engagement and
involvement in this issue. This is what we need
today. We need, once again, to come together
and tell our leaders that enough is enough. Eighty
years of the nuclear age has been more than enough.
And we need to bring this issue to an end. Thank
you so much, Ivana Hughes, for speaking with
me today and for encouraging everyone to step
up and keep the conversation going. We can all
do what we can for nuclear discernment. And thank
you, friends, for listening to the Nonviolent
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