Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm
John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking
with my friend, the legendary singer and activist
Joan Baez. This is a project of www .beatitudecenter
.org, where you can find many other podcasts
and regular Zoom programs on the nonviolence
of Jesus and practicing nonviolence and working
for a more just, peaceful world. So as I always
do, I like to begin with just a little short
prayer. So I just invite everyone, wherever you
are, just to take a deep breath and relax and
notice how you're feeling. Let's recenter ourselves.
And I invite everyone into the presence of the
God of peace who loves you infinitely and personally
and everyone everywhere. And we welcome the nonviolent
Jesus with us and just take a moment to ask for
whatever graces you need on your journey as a
peacemaker and doing the will of the God of peace.
God of peace, thank you for all the blessings
of life and love and peace that you give us.
Be with us now as we reflect together on your
call to be peacemakers and practitioners of nonviolence.
Bless us, inspire us, disarm us, heal us, strengthen
us, and send us out to do your will, to do our
part to help end war. poverty, racism, greed,
injustice, fascism, nuclear weapons, environmental
destruction, and the whole litany of violence,
that we might be your holy peacemakers, your
holy beatitude people, and welcome your reign
of universal love, nonviolence, and peace on
earth. In Jesus' name, amen. Amen. son oh where
have you been my darling young one i've stumbled
It's a great pleasure to welcome and to introduce
everyone to my friend Joan Baez, who we all know.
Joan is a legendary singer, songwriter, the queen
of folk music, and an equally legendary activist
for peace, justice, civil rights, and human rights,
and an equally passionate believer in nonviolence.
Joan has released over 30 albums, traveled the
world singing for 60 years, published a great
autobiography called And a Voice to Sing With,
and recently published her first collection of
poems, If You See My Mother, Ask Her to Dance.
My favorites are Any Day Now and, of course,
Diamonds and Rust, but I have nearly all her
albums and recommend all of them. I've been listening
to her since I was four. She opened Woodstop
and Live Aid, was inducted to the Rock and Roll
Hall of Fame. PBS did a spectacular biography
of her, which I recommend, called How Sweet the
Sound. There's another recent great documentary
called I Am a Noise. And I always say, and I've
long thought this, that Joan should get the Nobel
Peace Prize for all the great good she's done
for peace in the world. She's a close friend
of Dr. King, arrested for protesting the Vietnam
War like my teacher, Daniel Berrigan. She went
to Hanoi and was bombed by the U .S. She's been
against all wars and injustices because she has
a lifetime commitment to nonviolence, which is
what I'm proposing that we're going to talk about
today. So dear Joan Baez, welcome to the Nonviolent
Jesus podcast. I hope I live up to that introduction.
Great. So thanks so much, Joan, for giving me
some time to talk. It's my pleasure. Great. We
could talk, of course, forever about how bad
things are. about under the Trump administration
and the wars and injustices and fascism. But
you and I know that and a lot of the listeners
know that. That's why I thought it would be helpful,
maybe even energizing and fun to talk about nonviolence
and your journey of nonviolence. Yeah. And I've
always wanted to ask you a lot of these questions
and your lessons for us. And I think they're
needed now more than ever. So I'm just going
to ask you a bunch and whatever you want to say
is great. Who or what inspired you to learn nonviolence?
And what did it do for you in your day -to -day
life? How did this start with you? I guess it
started probably not on a conscious level, but
my parents becoming Quakers when I was eight
years old. And like most kids, I couldn't stand
Quaker meeting because you just had to sit there
and listen to old people talk. But when I was
16, we started. meeting with Iris Sandperl on
first day, on Sunday, like Sunday school. And
the thoughts I had had began to, they began to
form, you know. Obviously he had us reading Gandhi
and reading Lao Tzu and eventually Huxley and
so it was opening. My mind, all of it, always
in the context of the Quakers and nonviolence.
So I never stepped out of that. I mean, I was
lucky I had that internalized from a very young
age. So I didn't have to worry when I came around
for marches and demonstrations whether I was
going to be in the raising the fist one or whether
I was going to be in the nonviolence one. And
I was, you know, raising my own nonviolent arm
in those situations, all those demonstrations
and all those marches. And I felt completely
at home with King. And I met him when there was
a gathering of high school students and it was
an annual affair. And that's my first time there.
And they always had a speaker come, you know,
to share whatever their thoughts were. And this
year it was King. And I started to cry at the
beginning of the speech. I cried all the way
through. And because this was a man who was doing
what I've been reading about. He was doing what
I've been thinking about and reading about. This
is in the 50s when you were still a teenager,
right? This was in, yeah, it was in the late,
mid to late 50s. Yeah, after Montgomery. Wow.
So. Well, let me ask, because you've been. stayed
with nonviolence your whole life, and forgive
me because I ask this of everybody my whole life,
what does it mean for you? Or at least let me
put it this way, what are some key essential
ingredients of nonviolence for you? Well, you
know, I lived in Baghdad when I was 10, and it
was a pretty tough experience. So we'd seen,
you know, we never, in this country, never seen
beggars eating out of them. garbage can, you
know, and dogs too skinny to walk and, you know,
trying to absorb that. And somehow or other in
that process, I remember at one point seeing,
actually it was later, I was on a train, I was
in a car watching a train when you're traveling
cross country and you see the train is going
more or less your same speed. And in that train,
I saw an image whatever you want to call it of
another me of a little girl and I knew that if
somebody hurt her it would be hurting me and
vice versa so I connected somehow with other
people's pain and I figured that if they didn't
like the pain I didn't either and um Or vice
versa, if I didn't like it, then they wouldn't
like it either. I remember later on in life saying
to a crowd of raving leftists in Argentina that
a beating with a rubber hose feels the same whether
it's the right wing or the left wing who's administrating
it. They just about blew their lives. They were
so furious. They were absolutely furious. And
I had to stop the singing. And then you remember
Mercedes Sosa? Yes. Okay, so Mercedes, a Chilean
unbelievable singer, she came out on the stage
and she tamed them. And she shouted at them,
you don't know anything about this woman. And
then she ended up saying to them to sing, no
nos moverán, no nos moverán, más fuerte, louder.
These poor kids were beaten into submission.
But she wanted to validate me. And she did so
shouting at them. Well, your answer, you're talking
about empathy and compassion as to what kind
of led you to nonviolence. Now, I don't know
if you saw this in my notes I sent you, but I
wanted to tell you, I don't think I've ever told
you, this is the way I've been pitching it. And
this is a really personal question for me because
I've known you for a long time. This is the way
I've been talking about nonviolence, and I want
you to tell me what you think about it. So I've
been proposing that what we need is the real
holistic, total nonviolence that you see in Gandhi
and Dr. King, and that that requires three simultaneous
practices. You've got to do all three. But the
problem is we're good at one or two of them.
No one does all three. Number one, to be totally
nonviolent to yourself. From now on, we don't
beat ourselves up. We don't cultivate inner violence.
And, you know, I think it's a real problem in
the country right now. But we're always learning
to be peaceful toward ourselves. At the same
time... Practicing total, I can't say it with
a straight face, total nonviolence toward all
people, all creatures and Mother Earth. So always
trying to be nonviolent to everyone everywhere.
And that means the difficult people in our lives.
We have to work with them. But then third, at
the same time, you have to have one foot in the
global grassroots movement. So I'm saying nonviolence
to yourself and everyone, but also be part of
the movement. And you want my reaction to that?
Yeah, yeah. On a personal level that I will not
live up to that. I think it's a great idea. And
I have too much, what do I call it? I have a
short fuse. And I don't hurt anybody, but I get
pissed off instantly and attempt to keep my mouth
shut. I'm not very good at a peaceful response.
As I say, I keep it to myself. Well, that's peaceful
then. You're not responding. You're going to
try to get me out of this. I know you're going
to try and get me out of whatever feat I have
in my mouth, but I'm not cut out. It's an effort
for me. Part of me is absolutely all the things
that you say, because I came to it early. And
because even as a kid, I didn't like the quiet
time with the Quakers. That meditation has stayed
with me all through my life. And is a very, very
important part of my life. More important. Tell
me about that. If you want to share any of that,
what is your practice of meditation? I think
that's the only way to... to not respond and
snap back, you know, when you're feeling, you
know, it's the meditation practice helps disarm
us. It does help. Yeah, it helps. And I, for
a while, my practice was like many of my friends,
like 20 minutes in the morning or something,
or 25 minutes, and then guilt for the rest of
the day that I hadn't done. You'd be a good Catholic
then, Joan. Yeah, oh, great, great. But recently,
I guess since, Since the Trump administration,
literally, this second one, I have up to 245
minutes in the morning and sometimes an hour.
That's great. That's really good. Now, I want
to ask you about Martin Luther King. And you
know that he's had an enormous effect on my life.
And so there's a million things I could say,
but maybe you could just offer any one or two
memories or stories that might. Encourage me
on my journey. And then in particular, since
you've brought this up about how you and I are,
like sometimes I get the impression that Martin
Luther King actually really was naturally born
nonviolent. Like he was a very rare guy, pretty
gentle person. I agree with that. You know, I
agree with that. I think way more patient and
gentle than myself. For instance, and, you know,
the part about him being funny, which people
didn't get a chance to share because he kept
it under wraps. I'm sure he thought he would
be discounted one more time for one more thing
if he was funny while he was giving a speech,
you know. But I was able to enjoy some of that.
The relief, part of the release when he wasn't
in front of the crowd and we were laughing and
making jokes. Talking like regular people. But
I do know that before he ever did anything, he'd
spend a long time on his knees the night before
trying to get his own still small voice within
to speak to him. Yeah. I never heard anybody
say that before. They probably didn't know it.
You know? Yeah. Wow. I mean, was he Baptist?
Baptist minister. Yeah. Well, and, you know,
you said in the PBS film, How Sweet the Sound,
that the times you were with him right up through
the later 60s, you always cried because hearing
him talk about nonviolence, it was just so beautiful
and inspiring and eloquent. Can you say a little
bit about that? I would say that when I traveled
with and around, his demonstrations and his speeches
in churches. And he one time said, as he was
preaching, I love having Joan Baez sitting here
because I know the minute I say known violence,
she starts to cry. And then you would. Which
was true. He sounds like the greatest guy. Now,
there you are. All this is happening to you,
the 1960s, and you met Ira Sandperl early on
with the Quakers. You started a school of nonviolence.
Tell me about that. What did you do? How did
you manage it? And what were you teaching, you
guys? Well, I knew how much I got from Ira. And
it occurred to me that if there were other people
there, we'd probably expand what we were trying
to get across to each other, which it did. So
we together formed the Institute for the Study
of Nonviolence. It was, you know, not promoting
public action, but it was the study of and in
every sense of the word. And also people, a lot
of people had their first acquaintance with nonviolence,
with silence. Because we had, I think one time
of the day we had an hour of silence, didn't
get to read or walk around or anything. And so
some people were just shocked. But I've had people
come up to me way later on in life and saying
that they'd been at the school. And the thing
that made the most impression on them and stayed
with them the longest was meditation, was basically
shutting up for an hour. Wow. Yeah. Well, that
brings me to a question about another friend
of yours who's one of my great friends. teachers
was thomas merton and also dorothy day he's a
monk and spending his time in silence and then
he seemed to write more brilliantly about civil
rights and peace than anybody yeah yeah what
can you tell me about merton and dorothy day
in terms of non -violence or anything about them
well very brief memories because dorothy i remember
we were I'm about to get arrested. I think she
was about to get arrested. We were the farm workers.
Right. And she was just sitting with a peaceful
look on her face in a chair where we're all bustling
around. I don't remember what exactly that moment
was. And I didn't get arrested with her. Would
have been nice to. But, you know, just that the
elderly calm. Yeah. That some of us have. I almost
have it sometimes, you know. And then Merton,
the same thing, I didn't spend a lot of time
with him. But the fun part was him, you know,
me thinking, I'm in a monastery, probably going
to eat brown bread, you know, nuts and grains.
And he wanted his lunch. And he wanted a hamburger
and he wanted a milkshake. I think he had two
hamburgers and a milkshake. He probably never
wanted to see any brown bread again in his life.
And just sweet and funny. And I don't know if
we talked about anything in depth or whether
he was just relieved to not have to. That's so
great. You mentioned Dorothy Day's calmness there
at that Farm Workers March. I think we're recording
this just before the next big No Kings March
this weekend, and they're hoped to doubling in
size. And you could say more people have been
marching in the U .S. this year, 2025, than maybe
ever before, actually. That's what the numbers
are. Now, say a word about that, about being
nonviolent and the importance for Dr. King about
maintaining your nonviolence in public marches.
And that's why you would sit in silence and do
meditation and study, because we want to be on
our game so that we don't respond when we're
triggered. Yeah. Well, just for the fun of it,
I'm going to do No Kings in the little town where
I'm in the circus. I'm in a big top circus. It's
not with animals. It's with acrobats, and people
slide down the ropes, and I sing, and I wear
a blonde wig, and my name is Paloma Blanca, and
I'm a gypsy, and I dance, and it's wonderful.
So I'm going to take some of those people. If
they want to come to, there's a demonstration
in that same town in Alameda. And just, I mean,
I may put the wig on and go completely nuts because
people have to create their own circuses now.
You know, we have to bring joy and craziness
and lightness, which is all the circus is providing
for me right now. I mean, for two and a half
hours a day, I get to not remember about this
shit storm that's going on out here. And so,
I mean, if people want to do it and get in their
costumes and go and, you know, stand on their
heads and stuff, I think it'd be wonderful because
it has to be light. It has to be crazy like that
and fun and musical. And I would dance, you know,
if we can set it up right, I'll dance with the
guy I dance with in the circus. He's a Colombian
guy. He's a fantastic dancer. Oh, I'm sure you
know the quote, Mark Twain. The human race has
only one truly effective weapon, and that is
laughter. Oh, that's so wonderful. Isn't that
great? So we all are going to have to be in the
streets. That's the way it's like Saturdays are
now marching. But I'm asking about nonviolence,
and you're saying whatever brings life and joy
and further peace. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes, Joan,
I think you have been part of more grassroots
movements of nonviolence than any other living
person because you've just been so many places.
And, you know, I'm around the world and you've
told me some of these stories. I just want to
ask, as you look back on them and I can name
some of them, if you have any. any story or special
event or time or lesson that would stand out
in terms of nonviolence from your time, let's
say, in Chile or Prague with Vaclav Havel or
the time you went to Sarajevo with the violinist,
Vietnam, Nicaragua. We could go around the world.
I think the one that always pops to my mind is
the one that I felt I had actually made. I mean,
I was told that it made a difference, and that
was from Havel, and that was from our... stunt
that we pulled. Tell us about it. Tell us about
it. Okay. Yeah, I was waiting for him to come
from Prague to Borislava, and he would be in
a bus with other dissidents. We didn't know when
they'd arrive. I was in my hotel room. We didn't
know if they'd get arrested. We didn't know anything,
so I was just waiting. And mid -afternoon, finally,
all this is because I had a concert that night.
coming up and to be filmed by the national tv
always a risky business anyway um so i'm waiting
for him them to arrive and finally his phone
call and he says this is in lobby very many police
that was my introduction so i said come up they
all came up they all started smoking and drinking
beer and then he and i started You know, he called
it mischief. And that's where my whole, all my
art, all my portraits and, you know, an acrylic
are of mischief makers. Yeah. And so we started
planning and we would do this and he'd carry
my guitar, which is huge. And he would sit up
in the balcony and then he would say, more mischief.
And so it turned out to be very mischievous.
He carried the guitar and we met the security
at the doors of the stadium. And they said, oh,
it's sort of basically, oh, we'll take him from
here. And we'd say, no, no, he's our guest. And
they would say, and they'd try to get him out
of our clutches. We held on. We got him up in
the balcony where it would have been really more
difficult for the police to get at him. And then
I sang. you know, a sort of regular concert.
And the TV would click on and off when I said
something they thought they didn't want to hear.
And then at a moment, I knew that I was going
to say something about him. I used his name,
which means I knew that the TV would shut down.
So I just suddenly said, and now I'd like to
dedicate a song to my good friend. The microphone
went off. So at that point, I sang Swing Low
to him without the microphone. And it was quite
a moment. That song soars, you know. And he just
said that that concert was the last drop before,
you know, the chalice filled over. And that was
the Velvet Revolution. So great. And you've been
so important to him and the Czech Republic. And
thank you for that story. It's beautiful and
wonderful. Ever after that, he called himself
my roadie. And, yes, you have very high standards
in roadies. I want to ask you about both Iraq
and Gandhi. So hang in there with me. Okay. I
don't know if you remember, but like 20, 30 years
ago, I invited you to go with me to Iraq. And
I didn't know then that you had lived there as
a child. And then we were once. In 2003, actually
the night that George W. Bush began the horrific
bombing war on Iraq, I was with you in a concert
in Santa Fe and we stayed up late talking. And
I was complaining to you as usual going, I've
tried everything. I've spoken here. I've done
this and I've done that. And you're rolling your
eyes and I'm going on and on. And I'm looking
for advice. And finally I shut up and you said
to me, Joan Baez, well, John, you know what Gandhi
said? And I said, What? And you said, full effort
is full victory. That was so helpful. Not just
the name dropping of Gandhi, but that quote.
Tell me about that. What does that mean for you
today? I have another quote for you. Good. It's
T .S. Eliot. Yeah. For us, there's only the trying
and the rest is not our business. That's great.
Isn't that wonderful? That's wonderful. So it's
the trying is the thing and the full effort is
the thing and staying with it, not giving up.
Yeah. I have been like you radically. in my life
by Gandhi. And, you know, this project I'm calling
the Nonviolent Jesus Project, and a lot of my
work, you know, in the church as a priest for
45 years, Joan, I've been teaching that Jesus
is nonviolent because I read this quote as a
kid that Gandhi said, Jesus is the greatest person
of nonviolence who ever lived. And then poor
Gandhi goes on and says, and the only people
on the whole planet who don't seem to know that
Jesus is nonviolent are Christians. So that's
what I'm teaching. And I know he means a lot
to you, too. So tell me a little bit about any
thoughts you have of Gandhi or why he's important.
Nobody's talking about him, you know? Well, you
know, they never really did in the circles that
we were hoping they would. I would say that with
this round, with this Trumpism. that I heard
the word nonviolence used more by the young people
than I had in a while. And they started off their
demonstrations, they really were, not only just
doing it nonviolence, but talking about it, which
I thought was pretty extraordinary. But I mean,
you know, John, it's going to take forever for
people to not misunderstand the word, get their
image of a passive. Somebody lying on a train
tracks. I mean, it just is a it's a lifetime.
I used to say, I'm sure we could convert everybody
in the world if we just meet them one by one.
Yeah. One at a time. You can probably do it.
Unfortunately, there are several billion people.
Well, we keep at it and keep trying and keep
the full effort. So I want to ask you about music
and nonviolence and peacemaking. And I don't
know if you know, I grew up in a small town in
North Carolina. I was born in 59. And I had 21
-year -old nuns teach me in kindergarten, first
and second grade in the early 60s. And all they
did in kindergarten from day one. was teach Joan
Baez and Pete Seeger songs and Peter, Paul, and
Mary and Dylan and the Beatles until my mother
went to the church and said, what have you done
to my son? Because I could come home and I still
know where have all the flowers gone, all the
lyrics. Well, that changed my life. And then
to get to know you and Pete. When I go to your
concerts over the decades, I found them all,
and I know millions did, healing. disarming and
inspiring. So say something about the special
connection between music, maybe it's healthy,
nonviolent music, and peacemaking, and also the
connection between music and activism. Did the
music inspire your activism? Does the activism
inspire you to sing? Anything you want to say
in all those beautiful thoughts? It goes both
ways. And I guess I suppose... People ask me
if I think music is important in a movement.
And my answer is I just wouldn't be involved
in a movement that didn't have the music because
it's life support, you know. And it is what brings
us together and helps us across boundaries and
borders. I was, you know, Mercedes Sosa, whom
I mentioned a minute ago, is a very large woman.
And this is off point, but it's funny. And I
was saying to her, you know, music crosses all
boundaries. And she said, yeah, music and food.
The two essentials. Yeah. Isn't that great? That's
great. Okay, Joan, you have to forgive me for
this. That same night, I think, when we were
in Santa Fe or one of those times talking. And
you were tired and you were just giving a great
concert. I said to you, I don't know if you remember
this. So, Joan, where are you finding God these
days? And you almost fell out of your chair and
you looked at me and laughed. And then you got
serious and you thought and you said so beautifully,
in the music. Now, that was like 25 years ago.
And for me, Joan, these days I've been teaching
and talking about God. as universal love, universal
compassion, universal peace, and total nonviolence.
I have a new book coming out next year called
Universal Love. So if I may, if I could be so
impertinent to ask, hey Joan, where are you finding
God these days? You know, it's interesting, as
we're talking, I've started to polish this little
apple. I've got four apple trees, and the last
one is now popping them out. This has got a lot
of red on it. Let me ask that question. Where
did I get inspired? This apple, you know, in
the yard. It is totally nature for me that does
it. I still have a little creek at the bottom
of the hill, and I go in there in the summer
four days a week, walk the creek. They're wonderful
rocks in that creek. They have a design on them
on the bottom side when the hearth is stuck in
the dirt and sand. You bring it up and it's got
these extraordinary designs. And I go down there.
I don't know where to put them, but I start harvesting
them. And to me, that's God -centered down in
that creek, you know? So, so beautiful in creation,
in the beauty of creation, finding God and hope
and inspiration. I wanted to ask you about hope
and Dr. King. Now, here's another take I have,
and you just roll your eyes. But I've always
thought that Martin King never. And his whole
life talked about hope. And my take was because
everything was always working for him. You know,
he'd get whatever he wanted until he started
speaking out against the Vietnam War and then
the Poor People's Campaign. And so then, Joan,
I don't know if you know this, but apparently
the week before he was killed in Memphis, that
night, one night, he started to talk about hope.
And I've since found he was going to write a
book called The Meaning of Hope. I've actually
seen his pamphlet with his handwriting. So he
stands up in Memphis and says, tonight I'm going
to announce my definition of hope. So I want
to ask what you think about it and what you think
about hope. He says, hope is the final refusal
to give up. Isn't that great? Will you send me
that? Because I have a terrible time with hope.
Yeah. Someone suggested to me that hope is a
muscle. Which was helpful. I need to get to the
gym, you know, because I'm not terribly hopeful.
But then I never was. So actually, I could read
you that poem right now if you want. I'd love
you to read the new poem. This is something you've
written recently, right? Yeah, this is recently.
This is called This Is Not Optimism. Okay, great.
It says, I just wasted a day and a half writing
a long -winded response to the question, are
you an optimist? Really? In this shitstorm? Are
you kidding me? The simple answer is no, I've
never been an optimist. Does that mean I ever
gave up the fight against tyranny? No, I never
did. Most likely never will. I used to be a pessimist
until someone suggested it was a waste of time,
so I'm trying to quit. Being an optimist may
be a waste of time too, but at least it's less
depressing. Be an activist instead. Carry your
light out into this shitstorm. Keep your eyes
on the prize and shout glory hallelujah. Goodness
will prevail. This is not optimism. This is a
dance. Oh, that's wonderful. Thank you so much.
It doesn't answer about hope. You know, hope
is like a step removed from optimism. But it's
kind of a little bit the same. Well, I was taught,
you know, my teacher, I'm not sure you really
got to know, Daniel Berrigan told me as a kid
that... If you want to be hopeful, you have to
do hopeful things. And that's what you're talking
about. Isn't that helpful? And so simple. And
that's what you say in the poem there. Okay,
be an optimist and keep shouting glory, hallelujah,
and let's sing and dance and you'll be hopeful.
But then in theology school, Joan, I was taught
there's a difference between optimism and hope.
Optimism. I'm trying to impress you here, and
it's not going to work, is a theological eschatological
thing. It has the long salvation view of God
and Jesus and resurrection. What do you think
of that? Well, I heard scatological. I figured
you would. What do you think of that? I have
to get back to you on that. Okay. Way back in
the day, I think – I love your autobiography,
but I think you wrote a book called Daybreak,
which I don't have and I've never read because
I've never been able to find it. I think it was
there that you wrote this little short essay
about – The threat of personal assault to someone
you love. And I have always loved it, Joan. It
really helped me seriously when I was a seminarian.
Because as I started speaking around the country,
everybody's saying to me, yeah, but what if somebody
came up and is going to attack your mother? And
I got that question for decades. Thousands and
thousands of times. So I thought it would be
great, in case people haven't heard it, is if...
you read it or we could read it together. It's
a dialogue that Joan wrote, I think, in the late
60s. You want to tell me a little bit about it
or should we just dive into it? Let's just dive
in. It speaks for itself. Okay, so it's two -part.
It's Joan talking to some... obnoxious guy named
Fred that I'll play. So it's called What Would
You Do If? And Joan gave me permission. I don't
even know if you remember, but we republished
it a few years ago in a great theological journal
called Oneing, that I was a kind of a guest editor
for Father Richard Rohr. And it was a special
issue on nonviolence. And I got Jim Lawson and
all the great writers and teachers of nonviolence
to submit things. And we put this in it so people
can find it. at just Google Oneing or cac .org
and go to their journals. It's called What Would
You Do If? Fred. Okay, so you're a pacifist.
What would you do if someone were, say, attacking
your grandmother? Attacking my poor old grandmother?
Yeah, you're in a room with your grandmother
and there's a guy about to attack her and you're
standing there. What would you do? I'd yell three
cheers for Grandma and leave the room. No, seriously.
Say he had a gun and he's about to shoot her.
Would you shoot him first? Do I have a gun? Yes.
No, I'm a pacifist. I don't have a gun. Well,
I say you do. All right. Am I a good shot? Yes.
I'd shoot the gun out of his hand. No, then you're
not a good shot. I'd be afraid to shoot. I might
kill Grandma. Oh, come on. Okay, look, we'll
take another example. Say you're driving a truck.
You're on a narrow road with a sheer cliff on
your side. There's a little girl sitting in the
middle of the road. You're going too fast to
stop. What would you do? I don't know. What would
you do? I'm asking you. You're the pacifist.
Yes, I know. All right. Am I in control of the
truck? Yes. How about if I honk my horn so she
can get out of the way? She's too young to walk
and the horn doesn't work. I swerve around to
the left of her since she's not going anywhere.
No, there's just been a massive landslide. Oh,
well then, I would try to drive the truck over
the cliff and save the little girl. And Joan
has written here, silence. Fred, well, say there's
someone else in the truck with you, then what?
What's my decision have to do with my being a
pacifist? Well, there's two of you in the truck
and only one little girl. Someone once said if
you have a choice between a real evil and a hypothetical
one, always take the real one. Huh? Why are you
so anxious to kill off all the pacifists? I'm
not. I just want to know what would you do if?
If I was in a truck with a friend driving very
fast on a one -lane road approaching a dangerous
impasse where a 10 -month -old girl is sitting
in the middle of the road with a landslide on
one side of her and a sheer drop off on the other.
Exactly. That's right. I would probably slam
on the brakes, thus sending my friend to the
windscreen, skid on the landslide, run over the
little girl, sail off the cliff and plunge to
my own death. No doubt grandma's house would
be at the bottom of the ravine and the truck
would crash through the roof and blow up in her
living room where she was finally being attacked
for the first and last time. You haven't answered
my question. You're just trying to get out of
it. I'm really trying to say a couple of things.
One is that no one knows what they'll do in a
moment of crisis. And hypothetical questions
get hypothetical answers. So I'm hinting that
you've made it impossible for me to come out
of this situation without having killed one or
more people. Then you would say pacifism is a
nice idea, but it won't work. But that's not
what bothers me. Well, what bothers you then?
Well, you might not like it because it's not
hypothetical. It's real. And it makes the assault
on grandma look like a garden party. What's that?
I'm thinking about how we put people through
a training process so they'll find out how really
good efficient ways of killing. Nothing incidental
like trucks and landslides. Just the opposite,
really. You know, how to growl and yell, kill
and crawl and jump out of airplanes. Real organized
stuff. Hell, you have to be able to run a bayonet
through grandma's middle. That's something entirely
different. Sure. And don't you see it's much
harder to look at because it's real and it's
going on right now. Look, a general sticks a
pin into a map. A week later, a bunch of young
boys are sweating it out in the jungle somewhere,
shooting each other's arms and legs off, crying,
praying, and losing control of their bowels.
Doesn't that seem stupid to you? Well, you're
talking about war. Yes, I know. Doesn't it seem
stupid to you? Well, what do you do instead then?
Turn the other cheek? No. Love thine enemy, but
confront his evil. Love thine enemy, thou shalt
not kill. Yeah, and look what happened to him.
Jesus. He grew. You put that in. He grew. You
just can't help it, can you? I can't. He grew
up. They hung him on a damn cross is what happened
to him. I don't want to get hung on a damn cross.
You won't. Huh? You won't. I said you won't get
to choose how you're going to die or when. You
can only decide how you're going to live now.
Thank you for reading that with me. I loved that.
And it's funny, but it's helped me. My whole
life, because I can think of so many times I'd
be in front of a crowded church and they're saying
this to me and I'd be talking about it. I think
about my grandmothers, whom I loved and adored
in Washington, D .C. They were fine. They lived
into their 90s. Joan, you would have loved them
and they were fun. But I said there was a place.
Two miles from them were 100 ,000 people were
working all day long preparing to kill millions
of people and destroy the planet called the Pentagon.
And why isn't anybody upset about that? And I
got that from you. What does it mean? What arises
for you when you read that or hear that from
long ago? I think you just, any choice, but just
keep on. Keep on keeping on and talk to people
when you can and keep your eyes on the prize
and keep dancing. That's great. Maybe that's
a good note to end on and your advice for all
of us in this bad time. Is there anything else
you'd like to say or add or sing or recite to
us as we wrap it up? Yeah, I'll sing the one
that I've been singing when I show up at a rally
because it's so perfect. And I learned it during
the civil rights movement. I don't know from
whom, but we were all singing. And it goes like
this. Ain't gonna let nobody turn me around.
Turn me around. Turn me around. Ain't gonna let
nobody. Turn me around. Keep on walking. Keep
on talking. Marching up to freedom land. Ain't
gonna let the administration turn me around.
Turn me around. Turn me around. Ain't gonna let
the administration turn me around. Keep on walking.
Keep on talking, keep on singing, keep on swinging,
marching up to freedom land. Amen. Thank you
so much, my friend Joan Baez, for speaking with
me today. And thank you, friends, for listening
to this episode of the Nonviolent Jesus podcast.
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