WEBVTT 00:00:14.320 --> 00:00:17.379 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:17.379 --> 00:00:19.980 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:19.980 --> 00:00:22.660 with my friend, the legendary singer and activist 00:00:22.660 --> 00:00:27.789 Joan Baez. This is a project of www .beatitudecenter 00:00:27.789 --> 00:00:31.010 .org, where you can find many other podcasts 00:00:31.010 --> 00:00:33.909 and regular Zoom programs on the nonviolence 00:00:33.909 --> 00:00:36.649 of Jesus and practicing nonviolence and working 00:00:36.649 --> 00:00:40.630 for a more just, peaceful world. So as I always 00:00:40.630 --> 00:00:42.250 do, I like to begin with just a little short 00:00:42.250 --> 00:00:45.149 prayer. So I just invite everyone, wherever you 00:00:45.149 --> 00:00:49.509 are, just to take a deep breath and relax and 00:00:49.509 --> 00:00:53.299 notice how you're feeling. Let's recenter ourselves. 00:00:54.179 --> 00:00:57.100 And I invite everyone into the presence of the 00:00:57.100 --> 00:01:01.880 God of peace who loves you infinitely and personally 00:01:01.880 --> 00:01:07.159 and everyone everywhere. And we welcome the nonviolent 00:01:07.159 --> 00:01:09.939 Jesus with us and just take a moment to ask for 00:01:09.939 --> 00:01:13.459 whatever graces you need on your journey as a 00:01:13.459 --> 00:01:16.239 peacemaker and doing the will of the God of peace. 00:01:19.609 --> 00:01:22.530 God of peace, thank you for all the blessings 00:01:22.530 --> 00:01:25.370 of life and love and peace that you give us. 00:01:25.469 --> 00:01:28.730 Be with us now as we reflect together on your 00:01:28.730 --> 00:01:32.989 call to be peacemakers and practitioners of nonviolence. 00:01:33.310 --> 00:01:37.670 Bless us, inspire us, disarm us, heal us, strengthen 00:01:37.670 --> 00:01:40.769 us, and send us out to do your will, to do our 00:01:40.769 --> 00:01:44.430 part to help end war. poverty, racism, greed, 00:01:44.750 --> 00:01:48.150 injustice, fascism, nuclear weapons, environmental 00:01:48.150 --> 00:01:50.849 destruction, and the whole litany of violence, 00:01:51.150 --> 00:01:54.109 that we might be your holy peacemakers, your 00:01:54.109 --> 00:01:57.250 holy beatitude people, and welcome your reign 00:01:57.250 --> 00:02:00.629 of universal love, nonviolence, and peace on 00:02:00.629 --> 00:02:16.969 earth. In Jesus' name, amen. Amen. son oh where 00:02:16.969 --> 00:02:24.849 have you been my darling young one i've stumbled 00:02:26.699 --> 00:02:29.479 It's a great pleasure to welcome and to introduce 00:02:29.479 --> 00:02:32.800 everyone to my friend Joan Baez, who we all know. 00:02:32.919 --> 00:02:36.319 Joan is a legendary singer, songwriter, the queen 00:02:36.319 --> 00:02:39.620 of folk music, and an equally legendary activist 00:02:39.620 --> 00:02:42.659 for peace, justice, civil rights, and human rights, 00:02:42.819 --> 00:02:47.120 and an equally passionate believer in nonviolence. 00:02:47.849 --> 00:02:50.229 Joan has released over 30 albums, traveled the 00:02:50.229 --> 00:02:52.789 world singing for 60 years, published a great 00:02:52.789 --> 00:02:55.569 autobiography called And a Voice to Sing With, 00:02:55.689 --> 00:02:58.409 and recently published her first collection of 00:02:58.409 --> 00:03:01.090 poems, If You See My Mother, Ask Her to Dance. 00:03:02.229 --> 00:03:06.090 My favorites are Any Day Now and, of course, 00:03:06.150 --> 00:03:08.430 Diamonds and Rust, but I have nearly all her 00:03:08.430 --> 00:03:10.530 albums and recommend all of them. I've been listening 00:03:10.530 --> 00:03:13.629 to her since I was four. She opened Woodstop 00:03:13.629 --> 00:03:16.129 and Live Aid, was inducted to the Rock and Roll 00:03:16.129 --> 00:03:18.669 Hall of Fame. PBS did a spectacular biography 00:03:18.669 --> 00:03:21.689 of her, which I recommend, called How Sweet the 00:03:21.689 --> 00:03:24.430 Sound. There's another recent great documentary 00:03:24.430 --> 00:03:29.050 called I Am a Noise. And I always say, and I've 00:03:29.050 --> 00:03:31.250 long thought this, that Joan should get the Nobel 00:03:31.250 --> 00:03:34.250 Peace Prize for all the great good she's done 00:03:34.250 --> 00:03:36.840 for peace in the world. She's a close friend 00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:40.060 of Dr. King, arrested for protesting the Vietnam 00:03:40.060 --> 00:03:43.379 War like my teacher, Daniel Berrigan. She went 00:03:43.379 --> 00:03:46.219 to Hanoi and was bombed by the U .S. She's been 00:03:46.219 --> 00:03:49.259 against all wars and injustices because she has 00:03:49.259 --> 00:03:52.319 a lifetime commitment to nonviolence, which is 00:03:52.319 --> 00:03:54.599 what I'm proposing that we're going to talk about 00:03:54.599 --> 00:03:58.060 today. So dear Joan Baez, welcome to the Nonviolent 00:03:58.060 --> 00:04:01.860 Jesus podcast. I hope I live up to that introduction. 00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:06.159 Great. So thanks so much, Joan, for giving me 00:04:06.159 --> 00:04:10.300 some time to talk. It's my pleasure. Great. We 00:04:10.300 --> 00:04:12.620 could talk, of course, forever about how bad 00:04:12.620 --> 00:04:15.009 things are. about under the Trump administration 00:04:15.009 --> 00:04:18.769 and the wars and injustices and fascism. But 00:04:18.769 --> 00:04:21.069 you and I know that and a lot of the listeners 00:04:21.069 --> 00:04:23.410 know that. That's why I thought it would be helpful, 00:04:23.550 --> 00:04:26.990 maybe even energizing and fun to talk about nonviolence 00:04:26.990 --> 00:04:29.870 and your journey of nonviolence. Yeah. And I've 00:04:29.870 --> 00:04:31.930 always wanted to ask you a lot of these questions 00:04:31.930 --> 00:04:34.870 and your lessons for us. And I think they're 00:04:34.870 --> 00:04:37.670 needed now more than ever. So I'm just going 00:04:37.670 --> 00:04:39.970 to ask you a bunch and whatever you want to say 00:04:39.970 --> 00:04:44.389 is great. Who or what inspired you to learn nonviolence? 00:04:44.389 --> 00:04:46.850 And what did it do for you in your day -to -day 00:04:46.850 --> 00:04:50.810 life? How did this start with you? I guess it 00:04:50.810 --> 00:04:54.970 started probably not on a conscious level, but 00:04:54.970 --> 00:04:57.569 my parents becoming Quakers when I was eight 00:04:57.569 --> 00:05:01.350 years old. And like most kids, I couldn't stand 00:05:01.350 --> 00:05:03.370 Quaker meeting because you just had to sit there 00:05:03.370 --> 00:05:06.589 and listen to old people talk. But when I was 00:05:06.589 --> 00:05:10.509 16, we started. meeting with Iris Sandperl on 00:05:10.509 --> 00:05:14.990 first day, on Sunday, like Sunday school. And 00:05:14.990 --> 00:05:21.129 the thoughts I had had began to, they began to 00:05:21.129 --> 00:05:25.230 form, you know. Obviously he had us reading Gandhi 00:05:25.230 --> 00:05:30.470 and reading Lao Tzu and eventually Huxley and 00:05:30.470 --> 00:05:35.069 so it was opening. My mind, all of it, always 00:05:35.069 --> 00:05:37.689 in the context of the Quakers and nonviolence. 00:05:37.689 --> 00:05:40.569 So I never stepped out of that. I mean, I was 00:05:40.569 --> 00:05:44.490 lucky I had that internalized from a very young 00:05:44.490 --> 00:05:48.029 age. So I didn't have to worry when I came around 00:05:48.029 --> 00:05:52.149 for marches and demonstrations whether I was 00:05:52.149 --> 00:05:56.110 going to be in the raising the fist one or whether 00:05:56.110 --> 00:05:58.800 I was going to be in the nonviolence one. And 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:02.279 I was, you know, raising my own nonviolent arm 00:06:02.279 --> 00:06:06.160 in those situations, all those demonstrations 00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:08.899 and all those marches. And I felt completely 00:06:08.899 --> 00:06:12.139 at home with King. And I met him when there was 00:06:12.139 --> 00:06:15.459 a gathering of high school students and it was 00:06:15.459 --> 00:06:18.319 an annual affair. And that's my first time there. 00:06:18.480 --> 00:06:22.720 And they always had a speaker come, you know, 00:06:22.720 --> 00:06:25.579 to share whatever their thoughts were. And this 00:06:25.579 --> 00:06:30.199 year it was King. And I started to cry at the 00:06:30.199 --> 00:06:32.000 beginning of the speech. I cried all the way 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:35.980 through. And because this was a man who was doing 00:06:35.980 --> 00:06:39.100 what I've been reading about. He was doing what 00:06:39.100 --> 00:06:40.740 I've been thinking about and reading about. This 00:06:40.740 --> 00:06:42.860 is in the 50s when you were still a teenager, 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:45.680 right? This was in, yeah, it was in the late, 00:06:45.740 --> 00:06:51.899 mid to late 50s. Yeah, after Montgomery. Wow. 00:06:53.100 --> 00:06:57.019 So. Well, let me ask, because you've been. stayed 00:06:57.019 --> 00:06:59.600 with nonviolence your whole life, and forgive 00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:02.819 me because I ask this of everybody my whole life, 00:07:02.939 --> 00:07:05.959 what does it mean for you? Or at least let me 00:07:05.959 --> 00:07:08.160 put it this way, what are some key essential 00:07:08.160 --> 00:07:13.139 ingredients of nonviolence for you? Well, you 00:07:13.139 --> 00:07:16.779 know, I lived in Baghdad when I was 10, and it 00:07:16.779 --> 00:07:20.339 was a pretty tough experience. So we'd seen, 00:07:20.439 --> 00:07:23.579 you know, we never, in this country, never seen 00:07:23.579 --> 00:07:26.600 beggars eating out of them. garbage can, you 00:07:26.600 --> 00:07:32.660 know, and dogs too skinny to walk and, you know, 00:07:32.680 --> 00:07:35.120 trying to absorb that. And somehow or other in 00:07:35.120 --> 00:07:39.399 that process, I remember at one point seeing, 00:07:39.879 --> 00:07:44.459 actually it was later, I was on a train, I was 00:07:44.459 --> 00:07:47.100 in a car watching a train when you're traveling 00:07:47.100 --> 00:07:49.000 cross country and you see the train is going 00:07:49.000 --> 00:07:52.000 more or less your same speed. And in that train, 00:07:52.079 --> 00:07:57.480 I saw an image whatever you want to call it of 00:07:57.480 --> 00:08:02.120 another me of a little girl and I knew that if 00:08:02.120 --> 00:08:05.339 somebody hurt her it would be hurting me and 00:08:05.339 --> 00:08:09.920 vice versa so I connected somehow with other 00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:14.560 people's pain and I figured that if they didn't 00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:18.629 like the pain I didn't either and um Or vice 00:08:18.629 --> 00:08:20.649 versa, if I didn't like it, then they wouldn't 00:08:20.649 --> 00:08:23.470 like it either. I remember later on in life saying 00:08:23.470 --> 00:08:28.769 to a crowd of raving leftists in Argentina that 00:08:28.769 --> 00:08:32.730 a beating with a rubber hose feels the same whether 00:08:32.730 --> 00:08:35.250 it's the right wing or the left wing who's administrating 00:08:35.250 --> 00:08:38.169 it. They just about blew their lives. They were 00:08:38.169 --> 00:08:41.909 so furious. They were absolutely furious. And 00:08:41.909 --> 00:08:45.350 I had to stop the singing. And then you remember 00:08:45.350 --> 00:08:50.009 Mercedes Sosa? Yes. Okay, so Mercedes, a Chilean 00:08:50.009 --> 00:08:54.169 unbelievable singer, she came out on the stage 00:08:54.169 --> 00:08:57.149 and she tamed them. And she shouted at them, 00:08:57.309 --> 00:09:00.169 you don't know anything about this woman. And 00:09:00.169 --> 00:09:03.330 then she ended up saying to them to sing, no 00:09:03.330 --> 00:09:07.210 nos moverán, no nos moverán, más fuerte, louder. 00:09:07.370 --> 00:09:10.169 These poor kids were beaten into submission. 00:09:11.230 --> 00:09:18.539 But she wanted to validate me. And she did so 00:09:18.539 --> 00:09:23.799 shouting at them. Well, your answer, you're talking 00:09:23.799 --> 00:09:27.059 about empathy and compassion as to what kind 00:09:27.059 --> 00:09:30.320 of led you to nonviolence. Now, I don't know 00:09:30.320 --> 00:09:33.220 if you saw this in my notes I sent you, but I 00:09:33.220 --> 00:09:36.720 wanted to tell you, I don't think I've ever told 00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:39.259 you, this is the way I've been pitching it. And 00:09:39.259 --> 00:09:41.340 this is a really personal question for me because 00:09:41.340 --> 00:09:44.389 I've known you for a long time. This is the way 00:09:44.389 --> 00:09:46.429 I've been talking about nonviolence, and I want 00:09:46.429 --> 00:09:50.789 you to tell me what you think about it. So I've 00:09:50.789 --> 00:09:53.710 been proposing that what we need is the real 00:09:53.710 --> 00:09:57.970 holistic, total nonviolence that you see in Gandhi 00:09:57.970 --> 00:10:02.049 and Dr. King, and that that requires three simultaneous 00:10:02.049 --> 00:10:04.870 practices. You've got to do all three. But the 00:10:04.870 --> 00:10:06.789 problem is we're good at one or two of them. 00:10:06.830 --> 00:10:09.850 No one does all three. Number one, to be totally 00:10:09.850 --> 00:10:12.830 nonviolent to yourself. From now on, we don't 00:10:12.830 --> 00:10:15.950 beat ourselves up. We don't cultivate inner violence. 00:10:16.110 --> 00:10:17.870 And, you know, I think it's a real problem in 00:10:17.870 --> 00:10:20.490 the country right now. But we're always learning 00:10:20.490 --> 00:10:23.149 to be peaceful toward ourselves. At the same 00:10:23.149 --> 00:10:27.399 time... Practicing total, I can't say it with 00:10:27.399 --> 00:10:29.840 a straight face, total nonviolence toward all 00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:33.200 people, all creatures and Mother Earth. So always 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:35.340 trying to be nonviolent to everyone everywhere. 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:38.360 And that means the difficult people in our lives. 00:10:38.379 --> 00:10:41.059 We have to work with them. But then third, at 00:10:41.059 --> 00:10:47.159 the same time, you have to have one foot in the 00:10:47.159 --> 00:10:49.679 global grassroots movement. So I'm saying nonviolence 00:10:49.679 --> 00:10:52.259 to yourself and everyone, but also be part of 00:10:52.259 --> 00:10:56.679 the movement. And you want my reaction to that? 00:10:56.679 --> 00:11:00.279 Yeah, yeah. On a personal level that I will not 00:11:00.279 --> 00:11:04.340 live up to that. I think it's a great idea. And 00:11:04.340 --> 00:11:10.600 I have too much, what do I call it? I have a 00:11:10.600 --> 00:11:15.659 short fuse. And I don't hurt anybody, but I get 00:11:15.659 --> 00:11:19.740 pissed off instantly and attempt to keep my mouth 00:11:19.740 --> 00:11:24.559 shut. I'm not very good at a peaceful response. 00:11:25.419 --> 00:11:28.519 As I say, I keep it to myself. Well, that's peaceful 00:11:28.519 --> 00:11:31.360 then. You're not responding. You're going to 00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:33.019 try to get me out of this. I know you're going 00:11:33.019 --> 00:11:35.940 to try and get me out of whatever feat I have 00:11:35.940 --> 00:11:42.460 in my mouth, but I'm not cut out. It's an effort 00:11:42.460 --> 00:11:46.470 for me. Part of me is absolutely all the things 00:11:46.470 --> 00:11:49.389 that you say, because I came to it early. And 00:11:49.389 --> 00:11:52.889 because even as a kid, I didn't like the quiet 00:11:52.889 --> 00:11:56.190 time with the Quakers. That meditation has stayed 00:11:56.190 --> 00:12:01.190 with me all through my life. And is a very, very 00:12:01.190 --> 00:12:06.570 important part of my life. More important. Tell 00:12:06.570 --> 00:12:09.570 me about that. If you want to share any of that, 00:12:09.610 --> 00:12:11.830 what is your practice of meditation? I think 00:12:11.830 --> 00:12:15.409 that's the only way to... to not respond and 00:12:15.409 --> 00:12:17.970 snap back, you know, when you're feeling, you 00:12:17.970 --> 00:12:20.450 know, it's the meditation practice helps disarm 00:12:20.450 --> 00:12:24.029 us. It does help. Yeah, it helps. And I, for 00:12:24.029 --> 00:12:27.409 a while, my practice was like many of my friends, 00:12:27.470 --> 00:12:29.429 like 20 minutes in the morning or something, 00:12:29.529 --> 00:12:32.809 or 25 minutes, and then guilt for the rest of 00:12:32.809 --> 00:12:36.450 the day that I hadn't done. You'd be a good Catholic 00:12:36.450 --> 00:12:40.789 then, Joan. Yeah, oh, great, great. But recently, 00:12:40.970 --> 00:12:45.139 I guess since, Since the Trump administration, 00:12:45.460 --> 00:12:49.019 literally, this second one, I have up to 245 00:12:49.019 --> 00:12:51.080 minutes in the morning and sometimes an hour. 00:12:51.080 --> 00:12:53.879 That's great. That's really good. Now, I want 00:12:53.879 --> 00:12:57.639 to ask you about Martin Luther King. And you 00:12:57.639 --> 00:13:01.200 know that he's had an enormous effect on my life. 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:04.700 And so there's a million things I could say, 00:13:04.740 --> 00:13:07.139 but maybe you could just offer any one or two 00:13:07.139 --> 00:13:11.279 memories or stories that might. Encourage me 00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:13.860 on my journey. And then in particular, since 00:13:13.860 --> 00:13:18.720 you've brought this up about how you and I are, 00:13:18.899 --> 00:13:22.200 like sometimes I get the impression that Martin 00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:25.559 Luther King actually really was naturally born 00:13:25.559 --> 00:13:29.000 nonviolent. Like he was a very rare guy, pretty 00:13:29.000 --> 00:13:34.580 gentle person. I agree with that. You know, I 00:13:34.580 --> 00:13:37.600 agree with that. I think way more patient and 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:43.309 gentle than myself. For instance, and, you know, 00:13:43.330 --> 00:13:45.269 the part about him being funny, which people 00:13:45.269 --> 00:13:47.990 didn't get a chance to share because he kept 00:13:47.990 --> 00:13:51.070 it under wraps. I'm sure he thought he would 00:13:51.070 --> 00:13:53.409 be discounted one more time for one more thing 00:13:53.409 --> 00:13:57.070 if he was funny while he was giving a speech, 00:13:57.269 --> 00:14:00.789 you know. But I was able to enjoy some of that. 00:14:02.370 --> 00:14:05.429 The relief, part of the release when he wasn't 00:14:05.429 --> 00:14:08.330 in front of the crowd and we were laughing and 00:14:08.330 --> 00:14:11.610 making jokes. Talking like regular people. But 00:14:11.610 --> 00:14:14.750 I do know that before he ever did anything, he'd 00:14:14.750 --> 00:14:17.490 spend a long time on his knees the night before 00:14:17.490 --> 00:14:21.429 trying to get his own still small voice within 00:14:21.429 --> 00:14:24.789 to speak to him. Yeah. I never heard anybody 00:14:24.789 --> 00:14:27.370 say that before. They probably didn't know it. 00:14:28.330 --> 00:14:34.730 You know? Yeah. Wow. I mean, was he Baptist? 00:14:35.009 --> 00:14:42.389 Baptist minister. Yeah. Well, and, you know, 00:14:42.429 --> 00:14:47.250 you said in the PBS film, How Sweet the Sound, 00:14:47.330 --> 00:14:50.850 that the times you were with him right up through 00:14:50.850 --> 00:14:54.309 the later 60s, you always cried because hearing 00:14:54.309 --> 00:14:57.690 him talk about nonviolence, it was just so beautiful 00:14:57.690 --> 00:15:00.629 and inspiring and eloquent. Can you say a little 00:15:00.629 --> 00:15:04.830 bit about that? I would say that when I traveled 00:15:04.830 --> 00:15:11.629 with and around, his demonstrations and his speeches 00:15:11.629 --> 00:15:16.190 in churches. And he one time said, as he was 00:15:16.190 --> 00:15:18.990 preaching, I love having Joan Baez sitting here 00:15:18.990 --> 00:15:21.250 because I know the minute I say known violence, 00:15:21.429 --> 00:15:26.570 she starts to cry. And then you would. Which 00:15:26.570 --> 00:15:29.450 was true. He sounds like the greatest guy. Now, 00:15:29.509 --> 00:15:31.870 there you are. All this is happening to you, 00:15:31.889 --> 00:15:36.509 the 1960s, and you met Ira Sandperl early on 00:15:36.509 --> 00:15:41.269 with the Quakers. You started a school of nonviolence. 00:15:41.269 --> 00:15:43.649 Tell me about that. What did you do? How did 00:15:43.649 --> 00:15:46.970 you manage it? And what were you teaching, you 00:15:46.970 --> 00:15:51.730 guys? Well, I knew how much I got from Ira. And 00:15:51.730 --> 00:15:55.190 it occurred to me that if there were other people 00:15:55.190 --> 00:15:58.889 there, we'd probably expand what we were trying 00:15:58.889 --> 00:16:01.110 to get across to each other, which it did. So 00:16:01.110 --> 00:16:04.370 we together formed the Institute for the Study 00:16:04.370 --> 00:16:08.600 of Nonviolence. It was, you know, not promoting 00:16:08.600 --> 00:16:14.279 public action, but it was the study of and in 00:16:14.279 --> 00:16:19.559 every sense of the word. And also people, a lot 00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:25.299 of people had their first acquaintance with nonviolence, 00:16:25.299 --> 00:16:30.220 with silence. Because we had, I think one time 00:16:30.220 --> 00:16:32.820 of the day we had an hour of silence, didn't 00:16:32.820 --> 00:16:36.980 get to read or walk around or anything. And so 00:16:36.980 --> 00:16:40.100 some people were just shocked. But I've had people 00:16:40.100 --> 00:16:43.519 come up to me way later on in life and saying 00:16:43.519 --> 00:16:45.659 that they'd been at the school. And the thing 00:16:45.659 --> 00:16:49.639 that made the most impression on them and stayed 00:16:49.639 --> 00:16:53.620 with them the longest was meditation, was basically 00:16:53.620 --> 00:16:58.820 shutting up for an hour. Wow. Yeah. Well, that 00:16:58.820 --> 00:17:01.259 brings me to a question about another friend 00:17:01.259 --> 00:17:03.710 of yours who's one of my great friends. teachers 00:17:03.710 --> 00:17:06.789 was thomas merton and also dorothy day he's a 00:17:06.789 --> 00:17:09.250 monk and spending his time in silence and then 00:17:09.250 --> 00:17:12.950 he seemed to write more brilliantly about civil 00:17:12.950 --> 00:17:15.849 rights and peace than anybody yeah yeah what 00:17:15.849 --> 00:17:18.349 can you tell me about merton and dorothy day 00:17:18.349 --> 00:17:21.430 in terms of non -violence or anything about them 00:17:21.430 --> 00:17:25.349 well very brief memories because dorothy i remember 00:17:25.349 --> 00:17:28.859 we were I'm about to get arrested. I think she 00:17:28.859 --> 00:17:30.880 was about to get arrested. We were the farm workers. 00:17:31.099 --> 00:17:33.740 Right. And she was just sitting with a peaceful 00:17:33.740 --> 00:17:37.700 look on her face in a chair where we're all bustling 00:17:37.700 --> 00:17:40.940 around. I don't remember what exactly that moment 00:17:40.940 --> 00:17:45.220 was. And I didn't get arrested with her. Would 00:17:45.220 --> 00:17:49.519 have been nice to. But, you know, just that the 00:17:49.519 --> 00:17:56.119 elderly calm. Yeah. That some of us have. I almost 00:17:56.119 --> 00:18:01.579 have it sometimes, you know. And then Merton, 00:18:01.819 --> 00:18:04.779 the same thing, I didn't spend a lot of time 00:18:04.779 --> 00:18:09.019 with him. But the fun part was him, you know, 00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:11.140 me thinking, I'm in a monastery, probably going 00:18:11.140 --> 00:18:14.119 to eat brown bread, you know, nuts and grains. 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:17.980 And he wanted his lunch. And he wanted a hamburger 00:18:17.980 --> 00:18:20.859 and he wanted a milkshake. I think he had two 00:18:20.859 --> 00:18:23.259 hamburgers and a milkshake. He probably never 00:18:23.259 --> 00:18:26.539 wanted to see any brown bread again in his life. 00:18:26.839 --> 00:18:29.420 And just sweet and funny. And I don't know if 00:18:29.420 --> 00:18:31.480 we talked about anything in depth or whether 00:18:31.480 --> 00:18:35.039 he was just relieved to not have to. That's so 00:18:35.039 --> 00:18:40.289 great. You mentioned Dorothy Day's calmness there 00:18:40.289 --> 00:18:44.109 at that Farm Workers March. I think we're recording 00:18:44.109 --> 00:18:46.549 this just before the next big No Kings March 00:18:46.549 --> 00:18:48.950 this weekend, and they're hoped to doubling in 00:18:48.950 --> 00:18:52.009 size. And you could say more people have been 00:18:52.009 --> 00:18:55.410 marching in the U .S. this year, 2025, than maybe 00:18:55.410 --> 00:18:57.589 ever before, actually. That's what the numbers 00:18:57.589 --> 00:19:00.910 are. Now, say a word about that, about being 00:19:00.910 --> 00:19:04.289 nonviolent and the importance for Dr. King about 00:19:04.289 --> 00:19:07.970 maintaining your nonviolence in public marches. 00:19:07.990 --> 00:19:11.130 And that's why you would sit in silence and do 00:19:11.130 --> 00:19:14.329 meditation and study, because we want to be on 00:19:14.329 --> 00:19:18.329 our game so that we don't respond when we're 00:19:18.329 --> 00:19:22.869 triggered. Yeah. Well, just for the fun of it, 00:19:22.930 --> 00:19:25.609 I'm going to do No Kings in the little town where 00:19:25.609 --> 00:19:30.619 I'm in the circus. I'm in a big top circus. It's 00:19:30.619 --> 00:19:33.599 not with animals. It's with acrobats, and people 00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:36.960 slide down the ropes, and I sing, and I wear 00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:41.019 a blonde wig, and my name is Paloma Blanca, and 00:19:41.019 --> 00:19:43.440 I'm a gypsy, and I dance, and it's wonderful. 00:19:43.519 --> 00:19:46.759 So I'm going to take some of those people. If 00:19:46.759 --> 00:19:48.779 they want to come to, there's a demonstration 00:19:48.779 --> 00:19:53.460 in that same town in Alameda. And just, I mean, 00:19:53.480 --> 00:19:56.380 I may put the wig on and go completely nuts because 00:19:56.380 --> 00:19:58.740 people have to create their own circuses now. 00:19:59.099 --> 00:20:03.740 You know, we have to bring joy and craziness 00:20:03.740 --> 00:20:08.140 and lightness, which is all the circus is providing 00:20:08.140 --> 00:20:10.519 for me right now. I mean, for two and a half 00:20:10.519 --> 00:20:13.160 hours a day, I get to not remember about this 00:20:13.160 --> 00:20:17.440 shit storm that's going on out here. And so, 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:21.440 I mean, if people want to do it and get in their 00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:23.500 costumes and go and, you know, stand on their 00:20:23.500 --> 00:20:26.059 heads and stuff, I think it'd be wonderful because 00:20:26.059 --> 00:20:30.460 it has to be light. It has to be crazy like that 00:20:30.460 --> 00:20:34.839 and fun and musical. And I would dance, you know, 00:20:34.900 --> 00:20:36.859 if we can set it up right, I'll dance with the 00:20:36.859 --> 00:20:39.880 guy I dance with in the circus. He's a Colombian 00:20:39.880 --> 00:20:44.529 guy. He's a fantastic dancer. Oh, I'm sure you 00:20:44.529 --> 00:20:50.349 know the quote, Mark Twain. The human race has 00:20:50.349 --> 00:20:53.829 only one truly effective weapon, and that is 00:20:53.829 --> 00:20:57.369 laughter. Oh, that's so wonderful. Isn't that 00:20:57.369 --> 00:21:00.549 great? So we all are going to have to be in the 00:21:00.549 --> 00:21:02.690 streets. That's the way it's like Saturdays are 00:21:02.690 --> 00:21:06.710 now marching. But I'm asking about nonviolence, 00:21:06.710 --> 00:21:09.529 and you're saying whatever brings life and joy 00:21:09.529 --> 00:21:15.299 and further peace. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes, Joan, 00:21:15.420 --> 00:21:19.079 I think you have been part of more grassroots 00:21:19.079 --> 00:21:22.740 movements of nonviolence than any other living 00:21:22.740 --> 00:21:24.819 person because you've just been so many places. 00:21:25.380 --> 00:21:28.859 And, you know, I'm around the world and you've 00:21:28.859 --> 00:21:31.140 told me some of these stories. I just want to 00:21:31.140 --> 00:21:33.160 ask, as you look back on them and I can name 00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:37.579 some of them, if you have any. any story or special 00:21:37.579 --> 00:21:40.920 event or time or lesson that would stand out 00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:43.480 in terms of nonviolence from your time, let's 00:21:43.480 --> 00:21:46.799 say, in Chile or Prague with Vaclav Havel or 00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:50.400 the time you went to Sarajevo with the violinist, 00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:53.740 Vietnam, Nicaragua. We could go around the world. 00:21:54.460 --> 00:21:58.180 I think the one that always pops to my mind is 00:21:58.180 --> 00:22:00.940 the one that I felt I had actually made. I mean, 00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:03.339 I was told that it made a difference, and that 00:22:03.339 --> 00:22:06.700 was from Havel, and that was from our... stunt 00:22:06.700 --> 00:22:09.740 that we pulled. Tell us about it. Tell us about 00:22:09.740 --> 00:22:12.940 it. Okay. Yeah, I was waiting for him to come 00:22:12.940 --> 00:22:16.539 from Prague to Borislava, and he would be in 00:22:16.539 --> 00:22:20.099 a bus with other dissidents. We didn't know when 00:22:20.099 --> 00:22:22.579 they'd arrive. I was in my hotel room. We didn't 00:22:22.579 --> 00:22:24.640 know if they'd get arrested. We didn't know anything, 00:22:24.759 --> 00:22:29.740 so I was just waiting. And mid -afternoon, finally, 00:22:29.880 --> 00:22:33.140 all this is because I had a concert that night. 00:22:33.450 --> 00:22:35.930 coming up and to be filmed by the national tv 00:22:35.930 --> 00:22:40.509 always a risky business anyway um so i'm waiting 00:22:40.509 --> 00:22:44.490 for him them to arrive and finally his phone 00:22:44.490 --> 00:22:51.549 call and he says this is in lobby very many police 00:22:51.549 --> 00:22:56.549 that was my introduction so i said come up they 00:22:56.549 --> 00:22:59.250 all came up they all started smoking and drinking 00:22:59.250 --> 00:23:04.299 beer and then he and i started You know, he called 00:23:04.299 --> 00:23:07.720 it mischief. And that's where my whole, all my 00:23:07.720 --> 00:23:11.160 art, all my portraits and, you know, an acrylic 00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:14.279 are of mischief makers. Yeah. And so we started 00:23:14.279 --> 00:23:16.839 planning and we would do this and he'd carry 00:23:16.839 --> 00:23:20.559 my guitar, which is huge. And he would sit up 00:23:20.559 --> 00:23:25.700 in the balcony and then he would say, more mischief. 00:23:26.380 --> 00:23:29.220 And so it turned out to be very mischievous. 00:23:32.700 --> 00:23:36.140 He carried the guitar and we met the security 00:23:36.140 --> 00:23:40.799 at the doors of the stadium. And they said, oh, 00:23:40.819 --> 00:23:42.359 it's sort of basically, oh, we'll take him from 00:23:42.359 --> 00:23:45.359 here. And we'd say, no, no, he's our guest. And 00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:47.740 they would say, and they'd try to get him out 00:23:47.740 --> 00:23:50.720 of our clutches. We held on. We got him up in 00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:53.019 the balcony where it would have been really more 00:23:53.019 --> 00:23:58.000 difficult for the police to get at him. And then 00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:02.839 I sang. you know, a sort of regular concert. 00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:11.019 And the TV would click on and off when I said 00:24:11.019 --> 00:24:13.019 something they thought they didn't want to hear. 00:24:13.839 --> 00:24:20.299 And then at a moment, I knew that I was going 00:24:20.299 --> 00:24:22.819 to say something about him. I used his name, 00:24:22.920 --> 00:24:25.099 which means I knew that the TV would shut down. 00:24:25.849 --> 00:24:27.809 So I just suddenly said, and now I'd like to 00:24:27.809 --> 00:24:31.029 dedicate a song to my good friend. The microphone 00:24:31.029 --> 00:24:36.829 went off. So at that point, I sang Swing Low 00:24:36.829 --> 00:24:40.349 to him without the microphone. And it was quite 00:24:40.349 --> 00:24:47.450 a moment. That song soars, you know. And he just 00:24:47.450 --> 00:24:50.950 said that that concert was the last drop before, 00:24:51.049 --> 00:24:54.740 you know, the chalice filled over. And that was 00:24:54.740 --> 00:24:58.160 the Velvet Revolution. So great. And you've been 00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:01.240 so important to him and the Czech Republic. And 00:25:01.240 --> 00:25:03.799 thank you for that story. It's beautiful and 00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:07.640 wonderful. Ever after that, he called himself 00:25:07.640 --> 00:25:12.539 my roadie. And, yes, you have very high standards 00:25:12.539 --> 00:25:18.480 in roadies. I want to ask you about both Iraq 00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:23.750 and Gandhi. So hang in there with me. Okay. I 00:25:23.750 --> 00:25:26.890 don't know if you remember, but like 20, 30 years 00:25:26.890 --> 00:25:31.250 ago, I invited you to go with me to Iraq. And 00:25:31.250 --> 00:25:33.509 I didn't know then that you had lived there as 00:25:33.509 --> 00:25:43.019 a child. And then we were once. In 2003, actually 00:25:43.019 --> 00:25:46.200 the night that George W. Bush began the horrific 00:25:46.200 --> 00:25:50.000 bombing war on Iraq, I was with you in a concert 00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:52.240 in Santa Fe and we stayed up late talking. And 00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:54.240 I was complaining to you as usual going, I've 00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:56.059 tried everything. I've spoken here. I've done 00:25:56.059 --> 00:25:58.039 this and I've done that. And you're rolling your 00:25:58.039 --> 00:26:00.720 eyes and I'm going on and on. And I'm looking 00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:03.099 for advice. And finally I shut up and you said 00:26:03.099 --> 00:26:08.619 to me, Joan Baez, well, John, you know what Gandhi 00:26:08.619 --> 00:26:13.640 said? And I said, What? And you said, full effort 00:26:13.640 --> 00:26:18.160 is full victory. That was so helpful. Not just 00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:20.460 the name dropping of Gandhi, but that quote. 00:26:21.559 --> 00:26:24.039 Tell me about that. What does that mean for you 00:26:24.039 --> 00:26:27.819 today? I have another quote for you. Good. It's 00:26:27.819 --> 00:26:31.480 T .S. Eliot. Yeah. For us, there's only the trying 00:26:31.480 --> 00:26:34.799 and the rest is not our business. That's great. 00:26:35.240 --> 00:26:38.970 Isn't that wonderful? That's wonderful. So it's 00:26:38.970 --> 00:26:41.769 the trying is the thing and the full effort is 00:26:41.769 --> 00:26:45.029 the thing and staying with it, not giving up. 00:26:45.329 --> 00:26:52.980 Yeah. I have been like you radically. in my life 00:26:52.980 --> 00:26:56.400 by Gandhi. And, you know, this project I'm calling 00:26:56.400 --> 00:26:58.920 the Nonviolent Jesus Project, and a lot of my 00:26:58.920 --> 00:27:01.079 work, you know, in the church as a priest for 00:27:01.079 --> 00:27:04.119 45 years, Joan, I've been teaching that Jesus 00:27:04.119 --> 00:27:06.200 is nonviolent because I read this quote as a 00:27:06.200 --> 00:27:10.960 kid that Gandhi said, Jesus is the greatest person 00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:13.240 of nonviolence who ever lived. And then poor 00:27:13.240 --> 00:27:15.099 Gandhi goes on and says, and the only people 00:27:15.099 --> 00:27:17.559 on the whole planet who don't seem to know that 00:27:17.559 --> 00:27:20.769 Jesus is nonviolent are Christians. So that's 00:27:20.769 --> 00:27:23.230 what I'm teaching. And I know he means a lot 00:27:23.230 --> 00:27:26.269 to you, too. So tell me a little bit about any 00:27:26.269 --> 00:27:29.190 thoughts you have of Gandhi or why he's important. 00:27:31.009 --> 00:27:35.470 Nobody's talking about him, you know? Well, you 00:27:35.470 --> 00:27:40.049 know, they never really did in the circles that 00:27:40.049 --> 00:27:43.509 we were hoping they would. I would say that with 00:27:43.509 --> 00:27:48.680 this round, with this Trumpism. that I heard 00:27:48.680 --> 00:27:51.779 the word nonviolence used more by the young people 00:27:51.779 --> 00:27:56.720 than I had in a while. And they started off their 00:27:56.720 --> 00:28:00.119 demonstrations, they really were, not only just 00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:02.259 doing it nonviolence, but talking about it, which 00:28:02.259 --> 00:28:06.299 I thought was pretty extraordinary. But I mean, 00:28:06.339 --> 00:28:09.680 you know, John, it's going to take forever for 00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:13.099 people to not misunderstand the word, get their 00:28:13.099 --> 00:28:16.269 image of a passive. Somebody lying on a train 00:28:16.269 --> 00:28:19.289 tracks. I mean, it just is a it's a lifetime. 00:28:19.890 --> 00:28:23.650 I used to say, I'm sure we could convert everybody 00:28:23.650 --> 00:28:25.849 in the world if we just meet them one by one. 00:28:26.809 --> 00:28:30.349 Yeah. One at a time. You can probably do it. 00:28:31.009 --> 00:28:33.329 Unfortunately, there are several billion people. 00:28:34.890 --> 00:28:37.670 Well, we keep at it and keep trying and keep 00:28:37.670 --> 00:28:41.589 the full effort. So I want to ask you about music 00:28:41.589 --> 00:28:46.970 and nonviolence and peacemaking. And I don't 00:28:46.970 --> 00:28:48.789 know if you know, I grew up in a small town in 00:28:48.789 --> 00:28:53.230 North Carolina. I was born in 59. And I had 21 00:28:53.230 --> 00:28:56.250 -year -old nuns teach me in kindergarten, first 00:28:56.250 --> 00:28:59.650 and second grade in the early 60s. And all they 00:28:59.650 --> 00:29:03.599 did in kindergarten from day one. was teach Joan 00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:06.400 Baez and Pete Seeger songs and Peter, Paul, and 00:29:06.400 --> 00:29:08.779 Mary and Dylan and the Beatles until my mother 00:29:08.779 --> 00:29:12.220 went to the church and said, what have you done 00:29:12.220 --> 00:29:15.140 to my son? Because I could come home and I still 00:29:15.140 --> 00:29:16.940 know where have all the flowers gone, all the 00:29:16.940 --> 00:29:21.980 lyrics. Well, that changed my life. And then 00:29:21.980 --> 00:29:24.819 to get to know you and Pete. When I go to your 00:29:24.819 --> 00:29:27.519 concerts over the decades, I found them all, 00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:31.650 and I know millions did, healing. disarming and 00:29:31.650 --> 00:29:34.769 inspiring. So say something about the special 00:29:34.769 --> 00:29:38.650 connection between music, maybe it's healthy, 00:29:38.789 --> 00:29:43.329 nonviolent music, and peacemaking, and also the 00:29:43.329 --> 00:29:46.329 connection between music and activism. Did the 00:29:46.329 --> 00:29:48.769 music inspire your activism? Does the activism 00:29:48.769 --> 00:29:51.789 inspire you to sing? Anything you want to say 00:29:51.789 --> 00:29:54.349 in all those beautiful thoughts? It goes both 00:29:54.349 --> 00:29:59.799 ways. And I guess I suppose... People ask me 00:29:59.799 --> 00:30:03.640 if I think music is important in a movement. 00:30:03.700 --> 00:30:06.640 And my answer is I just wouldn't be involved 00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:10.119 in a movement that didn't have the music because 00:30:10.119 --> 00:30:13.619 it's life support, you know. And it is what brings 00:30:13.619 --> 00:30:18.900 us together and helps us across boundaries and 00:30:18.900 --> 00:30:22.619 borders. I was, you know, Mercedes Sosa, whom 00:30:22.619 --> 00:30:25.140 I mentioned a minute ago, is a very large woman. 00:30:25.720 --> 00:30:29.009 And this is off point, but it's funny. And I 00:30:29.009 --> 00:30:32.690 was saying to her, you know, music crosses all 00:30:32.690 --> 00:30:35.390 boundaries. And she said, yeah, music and food. 00:30:38.150 --> 00:30:42.309 The two essentials. Yeah. Isn't that great? That's 00:30:42.309 --> 00:30:46.109 great. Okay, Joan, you have to forgive me for 00:30:46.109 --> 00:30:48.170 this. That same night, I think, when we were 00:30:48.170 --> 00:30:51.349 in Santa Fe or one of those times talking. And 00:30:51.349 --> 00:30:53.150 you were tired and you were just giving a great 00:30:53.150 --> 00:30:55.349 concert. I said to you, I don't know if you remember 00:30:55.349 --> 00:30:59.450 this. So, Joan, where are you finding God these 00:30:59.450 --> 00:31:02.230 days? And you almost fell out of your chair and 00:31:02.230 --> 00:31:04.109 you looked at me and laughed. And then you got 00:31:04.109 --> 00:31:06.990 serious and you thought and you said so beautifully, 00:31:07.210 --> 00:31:12.029 in the music. Now, that was like 25 years ago. 00:31:12.190 --> 00:31:15.589 And for me, Joan, these days I've been teaching 00:31:15.589 --> 00:31:20.619 and talking about God. as universal love, universal 00:31:20.619 --> 00:31:25.079 compassion, universal peace, and total nonviolence. 00:31:25.079 --> 00:31:26.839 I have a new book coming out next year called 00:31:26.839 --> 00:31:30.319 Universal Love. So if I may, if I could be so 00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:34.000 impertinent to ask, hey Joan, where are you finding 00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:37.319 God these days? You know, it's interesting, as 00:31:37.319 --> 00:31:40.450 we're talking, I've started to polish this little 00:31:40.450 --> 00:31:43.430 apple. I've got four apple trees, and the last 00:31:43.430 --> 00:31:46.390 one is now popping them out. This has got a lot 00:31:46.390 --> 00:31:48.890 of red on it. Let me ask that question. Where 00:31:48.890 --> 00:31:52.490 did I get inspired? This apple, you know, in 00:31:52.490 --> 00:31:59.109 the yard. It is totally nature for me that does 00:31:59.109 --> 00:32:01.410 it. I still have a little creek at the bottom 00:32:01.410 --> 00:32:03.710 of the hill, and I go in there in the summer 00:32:03.710 --> 00:32:07.619 four days a week, walk the creek. They're wonderful 00:32:07.619 --> 00:32:10.119 rocks in that creek. They have a design on them 00:32:10.119 --> 00:32:13.779 on the bottom side when the hearth is stuck in 00:32:13.779 --> 00:32:16.099 the dirt and sand. You bring it up and it's got 00:32:16.099 --> 00:32:19.759 these extraordinary designs. And I go down there. 00:32:20.339 --> 00:32:23.799 I don't know where to put them, but I start harvesting 00:32:23.799 --> 00:32:28.559 them. And to me, that's God -centered down in 00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:34.779 that creek, you know? So, so beautiful in creation, 00:32:34.980 --> 00:32:38.579 in the beauty of creation, finding God and hope 00:32:38.579 --> 00:32:42.059 and inspiration. I wanted to ask you about hope 00:32:42.059 --> 00:32:44.680 and Dr. King. Now, here's another take I have, 00:32:44.720 --> 00:32:48.460 and you just roll your eyes. But I've always 00:32:48.460 --> 00:32:53.279 thought that Martin King never. And his whole 00:32:53.279 --> 00:32:56.460 life talked about hope. And my take was because 00:32:56.460 --> 00:32:58.539 everything was always working for him. You know, 00:32:58.559 --> 00:33:02.720 he'd get whatever he wanted until he started 00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:05.099 speaking out against the Vietnam War and then 00:33:05.099 --> 00:33:08.740 the Poor People's Campaign. And so then, Joan, 00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:10.700 I don't know if you know this, but apparently 00:33:10.700 --> 00:33:14.539 the week before he was killed in Memphis, that 00:33:14.539 --> 00:33:17.779 night, one night, he started to talk about hope. 00:33:17.940 --> 00:33:19.839 And I've since found he was going to write a 00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:22.740 book called The Meaning of Hope. I've actually 00:33:22.740 --> 00:33:26.859 seen his pamphlet with his handwriting. So he 00:33:26.859 --> 00:33:31.240 stands up in Memphis and says, tonight I'm going 00:33:31.240 --> 00:33:34.359 to announce my definition of hope. So I want 00:33:34.359 --> 00:33:36.299 to ask what you think about it and what you think 00:33:36.299 --> 00:33:40.619 about hope. He says, hope is the final refusal 00:33:40.619 --> 00:33:44.900 to give up. Isn't that great? Will you send me 00:33:44.900 --> 00:33:47.119 that? Because I have a terrible time with hope. 00:33:47.619 --> 00:33:50.579 Yeah. Someone suggested to me that hope is a 00:33:50.579 --> 00:33:53.920 muscle. Which was helpful. I need to get to the 00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:58.779 gym, you know, because I'm not terribly hopeful. 00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:02.740 But then I never was. So actually, I could read 00:34:02.740 --> 00:34:04.859 you that poem right now if you want. I'd love 00:34:04.859 --> 00:34:06.700 you to read the new poem. This is something you've 00:34:06.700 --> 00:34:09.960 written recently, right? Yeah, this is recently. 00:34:10.099 --> 00:34:13.119 This is called This Is Not Optimism. Okay, great. 00:34:13.929 --> 00:34:16.789 It says, I just wasted a day and a half writing 00:34:16.789 --> 00:34:19.369 a long -winded response to the question, are 00:34:19.369 --> 00:34:23.510 you an optimist? Really? In this shitstorm? Are 00:34:23.510 --> 00:34:27.409 you kidding me? The simple answer is no, I've 00:34:27.409 --> 00:34:29.949 never been an optimist. Does that mean I ever 00:34:29.949 --> 00:34:33.190 gave up the fight against tyranny? No, I never 00:34:33.190 --> 00:34:40.280 did. Most likely never will. I used to be a pessimist 00:34:40.280 --> 00:34:42.860 until someone suggested it was a waste of time, 00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:46.300 so I'm trying to quit. Being an optimist may 00:34:46.300 --> 00:34:48.960 be a waste of time too, but at least it's less 00:34:48.960 --> 00:34:53.559 depressing. Be an activist instead. Carry your 00:34:53.559 --> 00:34:56.039 light out into this shitstorm. Keep your eyes 00:34:56.039 --> 00:34:59.019 on the prize and shout glory hallelujah. Goodness 00:34:59.019 --> 00:35:02.659 will prevail. This is not optimism. This is a 00:35:02.659 --> 00:35:06.940 dance. Oh, that's wonderful. Thank you so much. 00:35:07.900 --> 00:35:11.199 It doesn't answer about hope. You know, hope 00:35:11.199 --> 00:35:15.659 is like a step removed from optimism. But it's 00:35:15.659 --> 00:35:18.920 kind of a little bit the same. Well, I was taught, 00:35:19.039 --> 00:35:21.820 you know, my teacher, I'm not sure you really 00:35:21.820 --> 00:35:24.139 got to know, Daniel Berrigan told me as a kid 00:35:24.139 --> 00:35:26.760 that... If you want to be hopeful, you have to 00:35:26.760 --> 00:35:29.099 do hopeful things. And that's what you're talking 00:35:29.099 --> 00:35:31.800 about. Isn't that helpful? And so simple. And 00:35:31.800 --> 00:35:33.699 that's what you say in the poem there. Okay, 00:35:33.780 --> 00:35:36.340 be an optimist and keep shouting glory, hallelujah, 00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:39.559 and let's sing and dance and you'll be hopeful. 00:35:39.699 --> 00:35:42.760 But then in theology school, Joan, I was taught 00:35:42.760 --> 00:35:44.920 there's a difference between optimism and hope. 00:35:45.719 --> 00:35:50.380 Optimism. I'm trying to impress you here, and 00:35:50.380 --> 00:35:52.679 it's not going to work, is a theological eschatological 00:35:52.679 --> 00:35:56.539 thing. It has the long salvation view of God 00:35:56.539 --> 00:35:59.679 and Jesus and resurrection. What do you think 00:35:59.679 --> 00:36:03.579 of that? Well, I heard scatological. I figured 00:36:03.579 --> 00:36:05.800 you would. What do you think of that? I have 00:36:05.800 --> 00:36:10.929 to get back to you on that. Okay. Way back in 00:36:10.929 --> 00:36:13.409 the day, I think – I love your autobiography, 00:36:13.469 --> 00:36:15.530 but I think you wrote a book called Daybreak, 00:36:15.590 --> 00:36:17.550 which I don't have and I've never read because 00:36:17.550 --> 00:36:20.050 I've never been able to find it. I think it was 00:36:20.050 --> 00:36:24.389 there that you wrote this little short essay 00:36:24.389 --> 00:36:29.869 about – The threat of personal assault to someone 00:36:29.869 --> 00:36:33.469 you love. And I have always loved it, Joan. It 00:36:33.469 --> 00:36:36.190 really helped me seriously when I was a seminarian. 00:36:36.250 --> 00:36:38.429 Because as I started speaking around the country, 00:36:38.570 --> 00:36:41.489 everybody's saying to me, yeah, but what if somebody 00:36:41.489 --> 00:36:44.269 came up and is going to attack your mother? And 00:36:44.269 --> 00:36:48.329 I got that question for decades. Thousands and 00:36:48.329 --> 00:36:51.710 thousands of times. So I thought it would be 00:36:51.710 --> 00:36:55.210 great, in case people haven't heard it, is if... 00:36:56.099 --> 00:36:58.639 you read it or we could read it together. It's 00:36:58.639 --> 00:37:00.920 a dialogue that Joan wrote, I think, in the late 00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:03.239 60s. You want to tell me a little bit about it 00:37:03.239 --> 00:37:05.780 or should we just dive into it? Let's just dive 00:37:05.780 --> 00:37:08.500 in. It speaks for itself. Okay, so it's two -part. 00:37:08.659 --> 00:37:13.079 It's Joan talking to some... obnoxious guy named 00:37:13.079 --> 00:37:17.619 Fred that I'll play. So it's called What Would 00:37:17.619 --> 00:37:20.219 You Do If? And Joan gave me permission. I don't 00:37:20.219 --> 00:37:21.920 even know if you remember, but we republished 00:37:21.920 --> 00:37:25.260 it a few years ago in a great theological journal 00:37:25.260 --> 00:37:28.800 called Oneing, that I was a kind of a guest editor 00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:31.119 for Father Richard Rohr. And it was a special 00:37:31.119 --> 00:37:33.679 issue on nonviolence. And I got Jim Lawson and 00:37:33.679 --> 00:37:36.360 all the great writers and teachers of nonviolence 00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:39.679 to submit things. And we put this in it so people 00:37:39.679 --> 00:37:45.320 can find it. at just Google Oneing or cac .org 00:37:45.320 --> 00:37:48.199 and go to their journals. It's called What Would 00:37:48.199 --> 00:37:52.760 You Do If? Fred. Okay, so you're a pacifist. 00:37:52.780 --> 00:37:55.739 What would you do if someone were, say, attacking 00:37:55.739 --> 00:37:59.360 your grandmother? Attacking my poor old grandmother? 00:37:59.619 --> 00:38:01.000 Yeah, you're in a room with your grandmother 00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:02.940 and there's a guy about to attack her and you're 00:38:02.940 --> 00:38:06.130 standing there. What would you do? I'd yell three 00:38:06.130 --> 00:38:08.809 cheers for Grandma and leave the room. No, seriously. 00:38:09.349 --> 00:38:11.690 Say he had a gun and he's about to shoot her. 00:38:11.809 --> 00:38:15.969 Would you shoot him first? Do I have a gun? Yes. 00:38:17.289 --> 00:38:19.809 No, I'm a pacifist. I don't have a gun. Well, 00:38:19.849 --> 00:38:23.769 I say you do. All right. Am I a good shot? Yes. 00:38:25.489 --> 00:38:27.969 I'd shoot the gun out of his hand. No, then you're 00:38:27.969 --> 00:38:32.409 not a good shot. I'd be afraid to shoot. I might 00:38:32.409 --> 00:38:35.880 kill Grandma. Oh, come on. Okay, look, we'll 00:38:35.880 --> 00:38:38.239 take another example. Say you're driving a truck. 00:38:38.679 --> 00:38:40.980 You're on a narrow road with a sheer cliff on 00:38:40.980 --> 00:38:43.380 your side. There's a little girl sitting in the 00:38:43.380 --> 00:38:45.559 middle of the road. You're going too fast to 00:38:45.559 --> 00:38:50.179 stop. What would you do? I don't know. What would 00:38:50.179 --> 00:38:52.880 you do? I'm asking you. You're the pacifist. 00:38:53.380 --> 00:38:56.440 Yes, I know. All right. Am I in control of the 00:38:56.440 --> 00:39:00.559 truck? Yes. How about if I honk my horn so she 00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:03.079 can get out of the way? She's too young to walk 00:39:03.079 --> 00:39:06.800 and the horn doesn't work. I swerve around to 00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:08.860 the left of her since she's not going anywhere. 00:39:09.099 --> 00:39:12.440 No, there's just been a massive landslide. Oh, 00:39:12.519 --> 00:39:15.179 well then, I would try to drive the truck over 00:39:15.179 --> 00:39:19.639 the cliff and save the little girl. And Joan 00:39:19.639 --> 00:39:23.980 has written here, silence. Fred, well, say there's 00:39:23.980 --> 00:39:26.079 someone else in the truck with you, then what? 00:39:27.579 --> 00:39:29.960 What's my decision have to do with my being a 00:39:29.960 --> 00:39:32.659 pacifist? Well, there's two of you in the truck 00:39:32.659 --> 00:39:36.559 and only one little girl. Someone once said if 00:39:36.559 --> 00:39:39.400 you have a choice between a real evil and a hypothetical 00:39:39.400 --> 00:39:45.039 one, always take the real one. Huh? Why are you 00:39:45.039 --> 00:39:47.679 so anxious to kill off all the pacifists? I'm 00:39:47.679 --> 00:39:49.840 not. I just want to know what would you do if? 00:39:50.710 --> 00:39:53.150 If I was in a truck with a friend driving very 00:39:53.150 --> 00:39:56.010 fast on a one -lane road approaching a dangerous 00:39:56.010 --> 00:39:58.610 impasse where a 10 -month -old girl is sitting 00:39:58.610 --> 00:40:00.409 in the middle of the road with a landslide on 00:40:00.409 --> 00:40:02.969 one side of her and a sheer drop off on the other. 00:40:03.170 --> 00:40:06.670 Exactly. That's right. I would probably slam 00:40:06.670 --> 00:40:09.550 on the brakes, thus sending my friend to the 00:40:09.550 --> 00:40:14.230 windscreen, skid on the landslide, run over the 00:40:14.230 --> 00:40:16.969 little girl, sail off the cliff and plunge to 00:40:16.969 --> 00:40:20.400 my own death. No doubt grandma's house would 00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:22.519 be at the bottom of the ravine and the truck 00:40:22.519 --> 00:40:26.280 would crash through the roof and blow up in her 00:40:26.280 --> 00:40:28.380 living room where she was finally being attacked 00:40:28.380 --> 00:40:31.519 for the first and last time. You haven't answered 00:40:31.519 --> 00:40:33.940 my question. You're just trying to get out of 00:40:33.940 --> 00:40:37.320 it. I'm really trying to say a couple of things. 00:40:37.559 --> 00:40:39.960 One is that no one knows what they'll do in a 00:40:39.960 --> 00:40:42.500 moment of crisis. And hypothetical questions 00:40:42.500 --> 00:40:46.179 get hypothetical answers. So I'm hinting that 00:40:46.179 --> 00:40:48.280 you've made it impossible for me to come out 00:40:48.280 --> 00:40:50.920 of this situation without having killed one or 00:40:50.920 --> 00:40:54.139 more people. Then you would say pacifism is a 00:40:54.139 --> 00:40:57.219 nice idea, but it won't work. But that's not 00:40:57.219 --> 00:40:59.699 what bothers me. Well, what bothers you then? 00:41:00.119 --> 00:41:02.400 Well, you might not like it because it's not 00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:05.260 hypothetical. It's real. And it makes the assault 00:41:05.260 --> 00:41:07.960 on grandma look like a garden party. What's that? 00:41:09.389 --> 00:41:11.730 I'm thinking about how we put people through 00:41:11.730 --> 00:41:14.670 a training process so they'll find out how really 00:41:14.670 --> 00:41:19.130 good efficient ways of killing. Nothing incidental 00:41:19.130 --> 00:41:21.809 like trucks and landslides. Just the opposite, 00:41:21.969 --> 00:41:25.449 really. You know, how to growl and yell, kill 00:41:25.449 --> 00:41:28.269 and crawl and jump out of airplanes. Real organized 00:41:28.269 --> 00:41:31.750 stuff. Hell, you have to be able to run a bayonet 00:41:31.750 --> 00:41:34.650 through grandma's middle. That's something entirely 00:41:34.650 --> 00:41:38.960 different. Sure. And don't you see it's much 00:41:38.960 --> 00:41:42.219 harder to look at because it's real and it's 00:41:42.219 --> 00:41:45.320 going on right now. Look, a general sticks a 00:41:45.320 --> 00:41:48.119 pin into a map. A week later, a bunch of young 00:41:48.119 --> 00:41:50.400 boys are sweating it out in the jungle somewhere, 00:41:50.599 --> 00:41:53.559 shooting each other's arms and legs off, crying, 00:41:53.739 --> 00:41:56.480 praying, and losing control of their bowels. 00:41:56.800 --> 00:41:59.360 Doesn't that seem stupid to you? Well, you're 00:41:59.360 --> 00:42:03.659 talking about war. Yes, I know. Doesn't it seem 00:42:03.659 --> 00:42:07.610 stupid to you? Well, what do you do instead then? 00:42:07.809 --> 00:42:13.769 Turn the other cheek? No. Love thine enemy, but 00:42:13.769 --> 00:42:17.269 confront his evil. Love thine enemy, thou shalt 00:42:17.269 --> 00:42:19.670 not kill. Yeah, and look what happened to him. 00:42:20.190 --> 00:42:25.429 Jesus. He grew. You put that in. He grew. You 00:42:25.429 --> 00:42:29.250 just can't help it, can you? I can't. He grew 00:42:29.250 --> 00:42:33.460 up. They hung him on a damn cross is what happened 00:42:33.460 --> 00:42:36.099 to him. I don't want to get hung on a damn cross. 00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:42.079 You won't. Huh? You won't. I said you won't get 00:42:42.079 --> 00:42:44.679 to choose how you're going to die or when. You 00:42:44.679 --> 00:42:47.420 can only decide how you're going to live now. 00:42:48.579 --> 00:42:51.420 Thank you for reading that with me. I loved that. 00:42:51.639 --> 00:42:56.059 And it's funny, but it's helped me. My whole 00:42:56.059 --> 00:42:58.219 life, because I can think of so many times I'd 00:42:58.219 --> 00:43:00.440 be in front of a crowded church and they're saying 00:43:00.440 --> 00:43:02.880 this to me and I'd be talking about it. I think 00:43:02.880 --> 00:43:05.699 about my grandmothers, whom I loved and adored 00:43:05.699 --> 00:43:09.920 in Washington, D .C. They were fine. They lived 00:43:09.920 --> 00:43:13.320 into their 90s. Joan, you would have loved them 00:43:13.320 --> 00:43:17.039 and they were fun. But I said there was a place. 00:43:18.170 --> 00:43:21.630 Two miles from them were 100 ,000 people were 00:43:21.630 --> 00:43:24.909 working all day long preparing to kill millions 00:43:24.909 --> 00:43:27.469 of people and destroy the planet called the Pentagon. 00:43:27.929 --> 00:43:32.550 And why isn't anybody upset about that? And I 00:43:32.550 --> 00:43:36.750 got that from you. What does it mean? What arises 00:43:36.750 --> 00:43:39.349 for you when you read that or hear that from 00:43:39.349 --> 00:43:45.789 long ago? I think you just, any choice, but just 00:43:45.789 --> 00:43:49.539 keep on. Keep on keeping on and talk to people 00:43:49.539 --> 00:43:53.579 when you can and keep your eyes on the prize 00:43:53.579 --> 00:43:58.880 and keep dancing. That's great. Maybe that's 00:43:58.880 --> 00:44:03.260 a good note to end on and your advice for all 00:44:03.260 --> 00:44:06.380 of us in this bad time. Is there anything else 00:44:06.380 --> 00:44:09.739 you'd like to say or add or sing or recite to 00:44:09.739 --> 00:44:13.159 us as we wrap it up? Yeah, I'll sing the one 00:44:13.159 --> 00:44:16.320 that I've been singing when I show up at a rally 00:44:16.320 --> 00:44:20.699 because it's so perfect. And I learned it during 00:44:20.699 --> 00:44:23.000 the civil rights movement. I don't know from 00:44:23.000 --> 00:44:25.260 whom, but we were all singing. And it goes like 00:44:25.260 --> 00:44:31.320 this. Ain't gonna let nobody turn me around. 00:44:32.099 --> 00:44:36.820 Turn me around. Turn me around. Ain't gonna let 00:44:36.820 --> 00:44:43.190 nobody. Turn me around. Keep on walking. Keep 00:44:43.190 --> 00:44:48.829 on talking. Marching up to freedom land. Ain't 00:44:48.829 --> 00:44:52.050 gonna let the administration turn me around. 00:44:52.570 --> 00:44:57.050 Turn me around. Turn me around. Ain't gonna let 00:44:57.050 --> 00:45:02.070 the administration turn me around. Keep on walking. 00:45:02.780 --> 00:45:08.179 Keep on talking, keep on singing, keep on swinging, 00:45:08.340 --> 00:45:15.969 marching up to freedom land. Amen. Thank you 00:45:15.969 --> 00:45:19.269 so much, my friend Joan Baez, for speaking with 00:45:19.269 --> 00:45:21.230 me today. And thank you, friends, for listening 00:45:21.230 --> 00:45:24.170 to this episode of the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. 00:45:24.650 --> 00:45:27.369 You can hear more podcasts and find other upcoming 00:45:27.369 --> 00:45:32.429 Zoom programs at www .beatitudescenter .org. 00:45:32.789 --> 00:45:35.590 Please consider offering a donation to support 00:45:35.590 --> 00:45:38.929 this free work and maybe offer a positive feedback 00:45:38.929 --> 00:45:41.829 or review at the National Catholic Reporter or 00:45:41.829 --> 00:45:44.989 Apple or Spotify or YouTube. whatever platform 00:45:44.989 --> 00:45:47.650 you use, but please help spread the word about 00:45:47.650 --> 00:45:49.769 these great podcasts by telling your friends 00:45:49.769 --> 00:45:52.690 about them. May the God of peace bless you all. 00:45:52.809 --> 00:45:55.670 Keep on following the nonviolent Jesus up the 00:45:55.670 --> 00:45:57.670 freedom road. See you next time.