Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm
John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking
with Paul Chappell, longtime teacher of peace.
This is a project of www .beatitudecenter .org,
where you can find many other podcasts and regular
Zoom programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and
practicing nonviolence and working for a more
just, more nonviolent world. So let's begin,
as I always do, with a little prayer. So I invite
everyone listening just to take a deep breath
wherever you are and to relax. And just notice
how you're feeling and recenter yourself in your
peace. And together let's enter into the presence
of the God of peace who loves you infinitely
and personally and everyone everywhere. And let's
welcome the nonviolent Jesus here with us and
ask for whatever graces we need to follow him
on the path of nonviolence and do God's will
of peace. God of peace, thank you for all the
blessings of life, love, and peace that you give
us. Be with us now as we reflect together with
Paul. on your call to walk the path of peace
and work for a more nonviolent, more just world
like Jesus. Bless us, inspire us, disarm us,
heal us, strengthen us, and send us out to do
your will, to do our part to help abolish war
and weapons and the causes of war and injustice
and greed and environmental destruction, that
we might be your holy peacemakers and welcome
your reign of universal love, nonviolence, and
peace on earth. In Jesus' name, amen. Well, it's
a pleasure to welcome Paul Chappell today to
our podcast. Paul is an international peace educator
and founder of Peace Literacy. He graduated from
West Point, was deployed to Iraq, left active
duty as a captain, then realizing that... As
he says, humanity is facing new challenges that
require us to become as well -trained in waging
peace as soldiers are in waging war. He founded
peace literacy to help students and adults from
all backgrounds work toward their full potential
as peacemakers for a more peaceful world. So
peace literacy teaches that peace is not merely
a goal, but a practical skill set. Just like
we have to learn how to read and write, we have
to learn the skills of peace and that it needs
to be taught, you know, kindergarten through
higher ed. So Paul grew up in a, as his biography
says, Paul, a violent household. Born in 1980,
he was raised in Alabama, the son of a Korean
mother and a black father who was a veteran of
the Korean and Vietnam Wars. Paul is the author
of a six -book series, the Road to Peace series,
and here are the titles of these books, little
wonderful books that you can get online. Will
War Ever End? The End of War. Peaceful Revolution.
The Art of Waging Peace. The Cosmic Ocean. Soldiers
of Peace. So you can visit Paul's website at
paulkchappell .com. That's P -A -U -L -K -C -H
- Paul, welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus podcast.
Thank you, John, for having me. Thank you so
much. So let's begin with your extraordinary
story, your turn from being a U .S. Army count
captain. to founder of this great organization
of peace literacy and being a leading voice for
peace education around the country and maybe
the world in every grade. As you say, just as
we have to learn to read and write, we need to
learn the skills of peace. So however you want
to go, Paul, tell us what happened and what led
to this amazing work you're doing these days
with peace literacy. Thank you. It started...
In my childhood, there's a few different causes.
One is, as you mentioned, growing up in a violent
household, multiracial in Alabama, and growing
up in a traumatic upbringing, having developed
a lot of behavioral problems as a child. I was
kicked out of elementary school, almost kicked
out of middle school, suspended in high school.
Dealing with things like rage and mistrust and
alienation from childhood trauma, the K -12 education
system had not given me any tools for how to
deal with rage, trauma, alienation, mistrust.
And we're seeing how rage, mistrust, alienation
are tearing apart our social fabric, our civil
society, how rage, mistrust, alienation, other
what we call tangles of trauma can be weaponized
and manipulated by people. I wasn't given any
tools for how to navigate any of that. And a
lot of what I learned from the culture that I
was growing up in were things that were not conducive
to peace or were contrary to creating a more
peaceful world. And part of my initial motivation
was how do I heal rage, alienation, mistrust?
And going to West Point, asking the question
to myself and seeing how people were. trained
in waging war and people received excellent training
in waging war in the military, but what if people
were as well trained in waging peace as soldiers
are in waging war? And that goes back to the
idea that not only are we not taught how to wage
peace in our culture, we're often taught the
opposite of that. Wow. So what is peace literacy?
And tell us about the basic message and what
you do in your workshops and programs. Peace
literacy, it's... focusing on a skill -based
approach to viewing peace not just as a goal,
but also as a set of skills, as a literacy. And
we focus on the human condition. A basic idea
is that if we want to go to the moon, we have
to understand the laws of physics. And if we
want to create a more peaceful world, we have
to understand the human condition. What is it
about humans that makes things like injustice
and violence and war possible? And then how do
you reduce those factors? How do you reduce those
root causes once you understand why we operate
in these kinds of ways? I can just give you an
example. So going back to looking at the human
condition as a starting point, something we talk
about is how humans have this natural aversion.
We have a natural aversion to hurting and killing
other humans. So we have a natural aversion to
hurting and killing other humans. All the military
history shows that this is how we are. Every
war, every genocide, every form of slavery, they
all require dehumanization. There's never been
a war, never been a form of slavery, never been
a genocide that hasn't used dehumanization, as
you know. And the purpose of dehumanization is
to protect the mind from feeling guilt and remorse.
If we hurt people and we think that they're like
us, we'll feel guilty, we'll feel remorseful.
And so dehumanization's purpose is to protect
the mind from feeling that. And we talk about
six different kinds of dehumanization that have
occurred throughout history. We use a metaphor
of a hydra, a six -headed hydra of dehumanization.
And I can just quickly go through these forms
of dehumanization, which you're well aware of.
The first one is psychological distance. which
involves viewing people as subhuman or non -human
in some way. And psychological distance always
involves some kind of derogatory name -calling.
You can go back thousands of years, and you can
find psychological distance where people are
viewed as subhuman. The Greeks are viewing people
as barbarians and viewing people as savages.
And you look at dehumanization toward African
Americans, it always involves... Some kind of
derogatory name -calling. The second kind of
dehumanization, the second form of distance is
moral distance, which is viewing people as irredeemably
evil. And they're all evil. We're all good. God
is on our side. And that's why civil wars are
typically so bloody because civil wars, because
you have the same culture, they typically involve
a lot of moral distance. I'm good. They're evil.
And if you believe that people are evil, you
can kill lots of people if you believe that killing
people is expelling evil from the world. The
third kind of distance is mechanical distance,
which means the farther away you are, the easier
it is to kill people. It's easier to kill people
by dropping bombs or using drones than it is
to stab people or shoot people at close range.
And Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman talks about
those three kinds of distance in his book on
killing. And we talk about three more heads of
the Hydra. We talk about industrial distance,
which involves viewing people as machines or
objects or tools to be used, expendable tools.
You can see that a lot with sex trafficking where
people are viewed as disposable objects to be
used. Numerical distance, which involves viewing
people as numbers, the way that numbers can strip
people of their humanity. And then the sixth
form is bureaucratic distance. Bureaucracy, of
course, as you know, thousands of Romans had
a huge bureaucracy. The way that bureaucracy
can create distance that removes people's humanity.
And then we talk about three forms of rehumanization,
how do we rehumanize people? The first form of
rehumanization is interaction. That's why all
dehumanization systems rely on some kind of segregation
is because interaction is a way to rehumanize
people. The second form is. Storytelling and
art, this is why slave narrators are so important,
the narrative of Frederick Douglass and even
novels like Uncle Tom's Cabin because it rehumanized
people. And the third form of rehumanization
is nonviolence. Nonviolence waging peace is such
a potent, powerful way to rehumanize people.
Nonviolence, as you know, refutes all the stereotypes
that are created through dehumanization. All
of those stereotypes nonviolence pushes up against.
So in part of your work, you ask these questions.
I'm going to read your three questions and then
ask, you know, how do you actually do that? And
are you having any luck getting schools to do
that? And I was interested in this 30 years ago
when I ran this huge community center in the
east side of Richmond, Virginia, for really impoverished,
disenfranchised African -Americans. So we had
daycare, kindergarten. a full elementary school,
and then their mothers taking classes while the
school was going on. And I was desperate to figure
out how to make it a center of nonviolence. I
found this program, Hands Are For Helping, Not
Hurting. So we put those signs all over the building,
and we required that as a motto for all the little
children. And we were slowly teaching everyone
nonviolence. But you've got this down to an art
form. So here are your questions. What if people
were as well trained in waging peace as soldiers
are in waging war? What if people were trained
to address root causes of problems rather than
symptoms? What if we taught peace as a skill
set, as a life -saving literacy, with as much
rigor as we teach reading and writing? And my
dream, and I know there are people doing this,
for example, there's a great educator. working
with the whole state of Rhode Island trying to
get nonviolence in every classroom. Gandhi said
that's the future. Every class in the whole planet
at every level has to teach nonviolent conflict
resolution for the rest of humanity. That's the
path. How are you actually doing that? Are you
getting in schools? Are you able to train trainers
or train educators? Or do you have pilot programs?
I'm just wondering. Yeah, I know you, you know,
Bernard Lafayette really well. He's been on the
podcast, yeah. Yes, and you know the story where
he, Martin Luther King Jr.'s last words to him
were, we are going to institutionalize and internationalize
nonviolence, that nonviolence has to be taught
to people, like reading and writing is taught
to people. Our approach has been, so viewing
pieces of literacy, when you think about reading
and writing literacy and math literacy, you have
the fundamentals. You have to learn how to count
with mathematics before you can do addition and
subtraction. You have to learn phonics and vowels
and consonants with reading before you can deal
with sentences and paragraphs. And we think there's
a lot of fundamentals and basics that are skipped
over in our culture. And, for example, I grew
up playing the violin and you have to learn just
basic intonation and how to play a scale. And
dealing with things like racism, it's more like
trigonometry or playing, you know, more an advanced
piece. It's more complex. And a lot of times
we talk about these very big picture things and
people don't have the fundamentals. They don't
have the basics that can really help them understand
those things. be able to frame those things in
terms of human behavior so we really focus on
relevance how do we make things relevant for
people where viewing non -violence is a set of
skills that is going to help people in their
daily life it's going to help them in their own
personal life it's going to help them in their
relationships it's going to help them in their
in the workplace it's going to help them interacting
with people just we're bombarded with so many
messages that can create confusion and hopelessness
and despair and addiction Being able to have
tools that can help you navigate that is an important
set of skills you can just use as a human being.
But then you can use those skills for dealing
with broader issues. Of course, you need to add
more skills. So if you're going to play Paganini
and the violin, you need more skills in addition
to what the basic skills are going to be. But
you still have to have those basic skills of
intonation, being able to play in tune, things
like that. So what we found is the traction we
have been getting in schools with students and
educators is educators find this useful for their
own lives. They say, well, this is helpful for
my colleagues dealing with students. It's helpful
dealing with the administration. It's helpful
with dealing with an angry parent who's calling.
And if we can't make this something that people
are going to find useful, like a... So we really
think of nonviolence as like a refrigerator.
If it's a useful tool, people are going to use
it. And if we can make it useful for people,
that's a starting point where it can start to
gain traction. And then once people find it useful,
then they often want to know more because there's
more ways in which this can help us solve human
problems on a small scale but also a much larger
national and global scale. Well, thank you. That's
very exciting. What kind of reaction have you
been finding over the years in these programs
and workshops you've been doing? You've been
all over the country, right, Paul? Yes. I think,
I mean, something we've been saying for a number
of years is we've been saying how the greatest,
the most dangerous weapons in the 21st century
are not bullets and bombs. The most dangerous
weapons in the 21st century are the weaponization
of rage, mistrust, alienation. and other tangles
of trauma nihilism cynicism and how the weaponization
of those tangles of trauma and the manipulation
of those tangles of trauma make all forms of
violence more likely that what we're seeing now
is the most dangerous weapons of war are really
manipulating and leveraging and weaponizing people's
rage their mistrust their alienation and that's
going to make violence more like that's going
to make nuclear war more likely to happen And
I think with social media and what people are
seeing in terms of the civil discourse in the
US, a lot of these issues are really hitting
home for them. And talking about social media,
for example, is a peace issue, right? I mean,
where does propaganda do most of its work today?
It's on social media. And where do these messages
of violence really start to proliferate? A lot
of it's in social media. That's given us a way
to talk about these issues where thinking of
social media as one of the most urgent peace
issues that we have to deal with because of how
it affects every other issue that people care
about. important this peace education is for
all of us everywhere, especially for a new generation.
How is all of this given you hope, you know,
given the state of the world and the Trump administration,
and we seem to be closer to the nuclear war than
ever, and environmental destruction, and not
to mention the horrific slaughter in Gaza? And
Ukraine, Africa, the violence on our streets,
gun violence. So has this been a hopeful experience
for you? And where are you seeing hope in young
people who are learning the art of peacemaking?
That's a great question. For a number of years,
I've been talking about if we don't teach people
peace literacy, if we don't teach people nonviolence.
And we're teaching people the opposite. I mean,
that's not going to be a good outcome. And I
think a lot of people got complacent. They just
thought that peace is inevitable. We talk a lot
about how war is not inevitable. We talk about
how humans are not naturally violent. Yet humans
can become incredibly violent through trauma
and other forms of trauma, manipulation, things
like that can propel people into extremely violent
behavior. And we aren't teaching people any of
these tools or skills. We're teaching people
the opposite, and we're seeing the consequences
of that. So just as the idea that war is inevitable
is very dangerous, the idea that peace is inevitable
is also very dangerous. People think, well, we're
just on this trajectory toward a more peaceful
and just world. It's all written in stone. We
don't have to do anything, and we're just going
to have a more peaceful world. It's just going
to be an inevitable result of just – the forces
of history, when we really have to do something
to push humanity in that direction. And so what's
happening now are things that I thought were
going to happen for a number of years. I mean,
in March of 2016, I was telling people I thought
Donald Trump would win at least two terms. And
when he lost, I thought he was going to win in
2020. But when he lost in 2020, I was saying,
I never said there were going to be consecutive
terms. I think he's going to win in 2024. I think
that there are traumas and pains and there are
hungers in our society that aren't being addressed
and that are being ignored and neglected. And
there's an appetite for things that we aren't
addressing in a way that's going to help deal
with those root causes. If we don't teach peace
and don't teach peace literacy and don't teach
nonviolence, right, this is necessary for human
survival. And if what we're seeing in the world
today doesn't show that, I'm not sure what does.
Yeah. As you know, I've been talking about and
teaching nonviolence, specifically using that
word for 45 years in every venue I can think
of until they kick me out. You know, it's just,
I don't know if it's the word. You know, it's
such a limited, clumsy word, or you just can't
go far. You know, in New Mexico, where I lived
for years, the birthplace of the bomb. I spoke
at the high school in Los Alamos and all those
kids' parents are millionaires building nuclear
weapons. And they said, hey, our parents told
us we're the greatest peacemakers in the world.
We know all about peace. We are the peacemakers
because we built the bomb. So it's really tough.
So that's why I stick with this word nonviolence
and I so appreciate that you do. But one of the
things I've tried to do is keep asking people.
even though it's such a clumsy word. But Gandhi
used it morning, noon, and night, and then so
did Martin Luther King. And it's yet to be co
-opted by the culture, whereas the word peace
has, and so is the word love. So I keep asking
folks to define it, and I keep trying to define
it in my books and lectures and stuff. How would
you define it? So what are the ingredients? And
when you say the word nonviolence, what does
it mean for you? That's a great question. I think
it's a number of things, just like mathematics
is a number of things, and music is a number
of things. It is, as you know, a lifestyle. It
is a way of being. It's a way of thinking. It's
a way of acting. It's a way of moving through
the world. It's an understanding. It's a set
of skills that we use. And I think it comes back
to so many fundamental things that are part of
being human. Something that we talk about is
the idea that there's different depths of knowing
something. There's different depths of understanding.
So I can know intellectually that a spider, a
small non -poisonous spider can't hurt me. I
can know that on an intellectual level. I could
write a five -page essay about how this small
non -poisonous spider can't hurt me, but when
it's on my arm, I might be shaking in fear, right?
I might be very nervous because I know it on
an intellectual level, but I don't know it on
this deeper unconscious level. And in a similar
way, I can know intellectually that I'm not going
to fall off a balcony, and I can write a five
-page essay about that. I know it on that intellectual
level, but when I'm on the balcony, I'm shivering
and I'm shaking and my knees are buckling. And
a lot of ideas about nonviolence, people know
it on this intellectual level, but they don't
know it on this deeper unconscious level. They
don't know it on this more experiential level
where you see someone's humanity in a way that's
visceral. And so part of the teaching, as you
know, is getting that intellectual understanding
across, which is an important thing for framing
ideas, but then how do we internalize that knowledge?
And so a big part of nonviolence is the… The
deep knowing that is harder to do. So the education
around nonviolence and the practice of nonviolence
has to involve that deeper knowing. So that when
you're on the balcony, when you're dealing with
a non -poisonous spider, you know it on this
more unconscious level that feels like it's deep
in your bones. And that process can take... a
lot of effort, and that's something we have to
think about how we do in terms of educating people.
That's so great, Paul. I spoke to a lot of Buddhists
this weekend, and I was trying to unpack this
word with them and how Gandhi first used the
clumsy Jain word ahimsa, meaning do no harm in
thought, word, or deed. And I said, okay, folks,
you're holy Buddhist peacemakers. Let's look
at that. You're never going to hurt another person
ever again for the rest of your life. You're
never going to say another harmful word to another
person for the rest of your life. You're never
going to think another harmful thought to another
person for the rest of your life. And everyone
broke out laughing. And these were Buddhists
in meditation. And yet Gandhi said, as you said,
the deep, the deep. How did you call it? The
deeper level of... Knowing. Deep knowing. That's
such a beautiful, interesting, mysterious phrase.
I would call it a spirituality of nonviolence,
trusting in however you would name God or higher
power. But Gandhi goes so far as to say that
active creative nonviolence is a force of truth
and universal love more powerful than all the
weapons of the world combined. So he went really
deep and deep knowing, perhaps more than anyone
in thousands of years. And how do we teach that,
Paul? You know, that peace itself, what we're
talking about, is not just sitting around doing
nothing or boredom, but is a oneness with creation.
And, you know, you could see it, whether it's
in Gandhi's struggle to get the British to leave
or Dr. King to get... to end segregation, all
the scores of nonviolent movements in recent
decades, that if people stand up together in
people -powered nonviolent movements, the structures
and forces of violence will back down. How do
you teach that, Paul? This is what I've been
trying to figure out, and I'm not sure about
it. I had a lot of conversations with Jim Lawson,
the civil rights leader and legendary teacher
of nonviolence. So specifically, Paul, I'm getting
at what's it like for you to talk about the word
nonviolence since you're a teacher of teaching
on this? I can respond to that. I want to go
back to something you asked earlier. I don't
know if I responded to it fully. You asked about
what leaves me hopeful. I feel hope that we can
understand these problems. If we couldn't comprehend
why people are doing what they're doing and it
was just bewildering, that would leave me hopeless.
But I really think there are explainable causes
for why we're doing what we're doing, and there
is a path out of it. So if we can predict behavior
and we understand why that behavior is happening,
we have a path out of it, that leaves me hopeful.
And it doesn't matter how bad things seem to
get. There is a path. And I think in going back
to what you asked just about nonviolence is the
deeper knowing, the deeper depths of understanding
and knowing where you not just you see, but you.
You feel, you know in this deeper way the dignity
of human life and animal life. It uplifts you.
It uplifts everyone around you. The path of trauma
is just a dead -end road to misery. It doesn't
uplift anyone. It hurts people around you. This
is the path out of the pain and the badness that
people feel. And succumbing to rage and mistrust
and alienation, it's not good for you. It's not
good for anyone around you. It's not good for
the country. It's not good for the world. So
the fact that nonviolence helps people and uplifts
people, this is the path that we need to take,
and people can benefit from it as they move through
that process. That also leaves me very hopeful.
Now, the question you ask is, how do we teach
that? And that's something that we have been
working on for a number of years. And as you
know, the challenge of education that makes it
so different from other things is everyone's
invited to the party. We have to figure out how
to teach reading and writing and mathematics
to everybody. We have to try to help everybody
understand these things. And it doesn't matter
if people have different learning abilities and
things like that. We have to figure out how to
make this work for everyone in our society. And
we have to provide the resources necessary for
that. And so we've been working for a number
of years because like reading and writing and
mathematics, if you start early, that's going
to be advantageous. If you can start teaching
the building blocks of this at a young age and
then. As people get older, you can teach them
new and more complex things. And I'd love to
talk more about that, but that's something we've
been working on. And that's the biggest challenge
is how do you teach this in a way where people
are really going to be able to internalize it
and live the ideas? Well, thank you. Well, I
think it's maybe the most important thing we
can do with our lives. And everyone at every
level, wherever you are, whatever age, can go
forth and talk about. Peace and nonviolence and
how can we be more nonviolent to ourselves and
one another and our families and our communities
and our churches, especially in the schools and
then in our politics and then toward the world.
And that's why I so wanted to have you. talk
on this podcast to encourage people to be peace
educators and teachers, and I wanted people to
know about you. You've written this beautiful,
marvelous little six -volume series of small,
accessible books. You call it the Road to Peace
series. So tell me a little bit about that and
what's your hope and your message there in your
books. Oh, yes. I just had a realization. There
is a way for me to... talk a little bit about
how we can teach this that I just remembered.
We talk about three different ways to teach nonviolence
in peace literacy. The first way is through curriculum,
and that's a whole process. How do we make that
curriculum accessible to different ages? How
do we scaffold the information for different
age groups? That's important. The second way
we teach nonviolence is through example. And
humans learn a lot through example, through the
example of other people, just observing and seeing
their behavior or being a recipient of their
behavior. So example is incredibly important.
We need people to be an example of this. And
we don't see a lot of examples. There are many
examples today, but they're not the examples
that are typically. held up in our culture or
in the popular media. Example is critically important.
And then the third way is through culture. So
if we are going to teach nonviolence, it has
to be through curriculum. We have to think of
it like a literacy, like reading and writing
and mathematics. And we have to devote those
same resources and that same rigor and commitment
and focus. And then we have to teach it through
our own example. And that's an incredibly powerful
teaching tool, right? The example you offer.
The example other peacemakers offer, the example
people can offer in their homes, in their communities.
And then we have to build a culture that can
also teach and reinforce nonviolence. It's great.
You know, with our work with Pope Francis, we
got him writing that and saying that around the
world, calling for new cultures of nonviolence.
And I've never heard that phrase until like 10
years ago in Rome. And I love that. It just lifts
up a new image or engages our imagination. Do
you want to say anything about your books? And
then we'll probably have to wrap it up because
we're out of time. They focus on war. They mainly
focus on the human condition and some of the
building blocks for peace literacy, which is
thinking about the human condition, thinking
about non -physical needs that are so important
for people, purpose and meaning, belonging, self
-worth. And the need for expression, the need
for explanations. And when we don't have those
needs met in healthy ways, we will meet those
needs in unhealthy ways. If we don't have healthy
purpose and meaning in life, if we don't have
accurate explanations for things, if we don't
have healthy forms of expression, if we don't
have healthy forms of self -worth and belonging,
we will feed that hunger in unhealthy ways. And
it covers a number of concepts that form some
of the building blocks of peace literacy. And
our website, peaceliteracy .org, has free curriculum
and all kinds of resources for people. So tell
me more about that, peaceliteracy .org. And can
they get your books on that website too? Yeah,
there's a link there. And for example, the information
on dehumanization, rehumanization, the curriculum
we offer, information about the online courses
and educators. Peace Literacy is taught in a
number of schools. Ohio and Canada and refugee
camp in Uganda and California, Oregon. It's taught
in a number of different places. And it's really
a grassroots movement. We're a nonprofit, so
we try to do everything we can to help educators
incorporate this into their teaching and into
their interactions with other people. And we're
glad to support anyone who would like to reach
out to us at our website. Great. So I hope everyone
listening can go and check out Paul's website,
peaceliteracy .org, especially to get materials
about teaching peace in schools or to get them
to teachers. Paul, we're really unfortunately
out of time, but is there anything else you'd
like to say before we end? I'm just really grateful
for... All you do for peace, John, and the work
becomes more urgently needed every day. The case
for the important necessity of nonviolence becomes
more obvious every day. And I'm hopeful. And
that hope is, I call it realistic hope. It's
hope based on things that we have to do. And
we can't succumb to it. despair, but we also
can't succumb to naive hope that things are going
to work themselves out if we don't move humanity
forward. Thank you so much, Paul Chappelle, for
speaking with me. A blessing. And thank you,
friends, for listening to the Nonviolent Jesus
podcast. You can hear more podcasts and find
other upcoming Zoom programs at BeatitudesCenter
.org. And please consider offering a donation
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and other church folk. So may the God of peace
bless you all and keep on following the nonviolent
Jesus. See you next time.