WEBVTT 00:00:16.780 --> 00:00:19.660 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:19.660 --> 00:00:22.359 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:22.359 --> 00:00:25.539 with Paul Chappell, longtime teacher of peace. 00:00:25.839 --> 00:00:30.800 This is a project of www .beatitudecenter .org, 00:00:30.960 --> 00:00:34.039 where you can find many other podcasts and regular 00:00:34.039 --> 00:00:37.280 Zoom programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and 00:00:37.280 --> 00:00:40.119 practicing nonviolence and working for a more 00:00:40.119 --> 00:00:43.609 just, more nonviolent world. So let's begin, 00:00:43.789 --> 00:00:46.390 as I always do, with a little prayer. So I invite 00:00:46.390 --> 00:00:49.250 everyone listening just to take a deep breath 00:00:49.250 --> 00:00:53.649 wherever you are and to relax. And just notice 00:00:53.649 --> 00:00:58.030 how you're feeling and recenter yourself in your 00:00:58.030 --> 00:01:01.409 peace. And together let's enter into the presence 00:01:01.409 --> 00:01:04.829 of the God of peace who loves you infinitely 00:01:04.829 --> 00:01:09.590 and personally and everyone everywhere. And let's 00:01:09.590 --> 00:01:12.989 welcome the nonviolent Jesus here with us and 00:01:12.989 --> 00:01:16.730 ask for whatever graces we need to follow him 00:01:16.730 --> 00:01:19.090 on the path of nonviolence and do God's will 00:01:19.090 --> 00:01:27.049 of peace. God of peace, thank you for all the 00:01:27.049 --> 00:01:30.109 blessings of life, love, and peace that you give 00:01:30.109 --> 00:01:33.390 us. Be with us now as we reflect together with 00:01:33.390 --> 00:01:37.239 Paul. on your call to walk the path of peace 00:01:37.239 --> 00:01:40.340 and work for a more nonviolent, more just world 00:01:40.340 --> 00:01:44.400 like Jesus. Bless us, inspire us, disarm us, 00:01:44.560 --> 00:01:48.260 heal us, strengthen us, and send us out to do 00:01:48.260 --> 00:01:51.719 your will, to do our part to help abolish war 00:01:51.719 --> 00:01:55.120 and weapons and the causes of war and injustice 00:01:55.120 --> 00:01:58.140 and greed and environmental destruction, that 00:01:58.140 --> 00:02:01.359 we might be your holy peacemakers and welcome 00:02:01.359 --> 00:02:04.670 your reign of universal love, nonviolence, and 00:02:04.670 --> 00:02:08.810 peace on earth. In Jesus' name, amen. Well, it's 00:02:08.810 --> 00:02:11.129 a pleasure to welcome Paul Chappell today to 00:02:11.129 --> 00:02:14.689 our podcast. Paul is an international peace educator 00:02:14.689 --> 00:02:18.509 and founder of Peace Literacy. He graduated from 00:02:18.509 --> 00:02:22.150 West Point, was deployed to Iraq, left active 00:02:22.150 --> 00:02:26.400 duty as a captain, then realizing that... As 00:02:26.400 --> 00:02:29.180 he says, humanity is facing new challenges that 00:02:29.180 --> 00:02:32.060 require us to become as well -trained in waging 00:02:32.060 --> 00:02:35.639 peace as soldiers are in waging war. He founded 00:02:35.639 --> 00:02:38.159 peace literacy to help students and adults from 00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:41.240 all backgrounds work toward their full potential 00:02:41.240 --> 00:02:45.020 as peacemakers for a more peaceful world. So 00:02:45.020 --> 00:02:47.639 peace literacy teaches that peace is not merely 00:02:47.639 --> 00:02:53.099 a goal, but a practical skill set. Just like 00:02:53.099 --> 00:02:55.319 we have to learn how to read and write, we have 00:02:55.319 --> 00:02:59.340 to learn the skills of peace and that it needs 00:02:59.340 --> 00:03:01.699 to be taught, you know, kindergarten through 00:03:01.699 --> 00:03:06.560 higher ed. So Paul grew up in a, as his biography 00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:10.439 says, Paul, a violent household. Born in 1980, 00:03:10.900 --> 00:03:14.180 he was raised in Alabama, the son of a Korean 00:03:14.180 --> 00:03:16.259 mother and a black father who was a veteran of 00:03:16.259 --> 00:03:20.360 the Korean and Vietnam Wars. Paul is the author 00:03:20.360 --> 00:03:23.680 of a six -book series, the Road to Peace series, 00:03:23.840 --> 00:03:26.719 and here are the titles of these books, little 00:03:26.719 --> 00:03:29.520 wonderful books that you can get online. Will 00:03:29.520 --> 00:03:33.819 War Ever End? The End of War. Peaceful Revolution. 00:03:34.360 --> 00:03:39.460 The Art of Waging Peace. The Cosmic Ocean. Soldiers 00:03:39.460 --> 00:03:42.960 of Peace. So you can visit Paul's website at 00:03:42.960 --> 00:03:47.979 paulkchappell .com. That's P -A -U -L -K -C -H 00:03:47.979 --> 00:03:53.520 - Paul, welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. 00:03:54.759 --> 00:03:56.599 Thank you, John, for having me. Thank you so 00:03:56.599 --> 00:03:59.860 much. So let's begin with your extraordinary 00:03:59.860 --> 00:04:03.300 story, your turn from being a U .S. Army count 00:04:03.300 --> 00:04:07.219 captain. to founder of this great organization 00:04:07.219 --> 00:04:12.020 of peace literacy and being a leading voice for 00:04:12.020 --> 00:04:14.520 peace education around the country and maybe 00:04:14.520 --> 00:04:17.519 the world in every grade. As you say, just as 00:04:17.519 --> 00:04:19.860 we have to learn to read and write, we need to 00:04:19.860 --> 00:04:23.879 learn the skills of peace. So however you want 00:04:23.879 --> 00:04:27.120 to go, Paul, tell us what happened and what led 00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:29.420 to this amazing work you're doing these days 00:04:29.420 --> 00:04:33.920 with peace literacy. Thank you. It started... 00:04:34.279 --> 00:04:37.259 In my childhood, there's a few different causes. 00:04:37.379 --> 00:04:40.279 One is, as you mentioned, growing up in a violent 00:04:40.279 --> 00:04:44.959 household, multiracial in Alabama, and growing 00:04:44.959 --> 00:04:47.379 up in a traumatic upbringing, having developed 00:04:47.379 --> 00:04:49.939 a lot of behavioral problems as a child. I was 00:04:49.939 --> 00:04:52.040 kicked out of elementary school, almost kicked 00:04:52.040 --> 00:04:53.879 out of middle school, suspended in high school. 00:04:56.019 --> 00:04:58.259 Dealing with things like rage and mistrust and 00:04:58.259 --> 00:05:01.300 alienation from childhood trauma, the K -12 education 00:05:01.300 --> 00:05:03.759 system had not given me any tools for how to 00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:06.860 deal with rage, trauma, alienation, mistrust. 00:05:07.480 --> 00:05:12.160 And we're seeing how rage, mistrust, alienation 00:05:12.160 --> 00:05:15.860 are tearing apart our social fabric, our civil 00:05:15.860 --> 00:05:20.019 society, how rage, mistrust, alienation, other 00:05:20.019 --> 00:05:22.660 what we call tangles of trauma can be weaponized 00:05:22.660 --> 00:05:26.100 and manipulated by people. I wasn't given any 00:05:26.100 --> 00:05:29.439 tools for how to navigate any of that. And a 00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:31.720 lot of what I learned from the culture that I 00:05:31.720 --> 00:05:35.759 was growing up in were things that were not conducive 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:38.240 to peace or were contrary to creating a more 00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:43.160 peaceful world. And part of my initial motivation 00:05:43.160 --> 00:05:47.079 was how do I heal rage, alienation, mistrust? 00:05:47.819 --> 00:05:51.000 And going to West Point, asking the question 00:05:51.000 --> 00:05:55.189 to myself and seeing how people were. trained 00:05:55.189 --> 00:05:57.370 in waging war and people received excellent training 00:05:57.370 --> 00:05:59.769 in waging war in the military, but what if people 00:05:59.769 --> 00:06:01.850 were as well trained in waging peace as soldiers 00:06:01.850 --> 00:06:04.189 are in waging war? And that goes back to the 00:06:04.189 --> 00:06:06.529 idea that not only are we not taught how to wage 00:06:06.529 --> 00:06:09.290 peace in our culture, we're often taught the 00:06:09.290 --> 00:06:14.829 opposite of that. Wow. So what is peace literacy? 00:06:15.389 --> 00:06:18.810 And tell us about the basic message and what 00:06:18.810 --> 00:06:22.509 you do in your workshops and programs. Peace 00:06:22.509 --> 00:06:26.639 literacy, it's... focusing on a skill -based 00:06:26.639 --> 00:06:30.660 approach to viewing peace not just as a goal, 00:06:30.740 --> 00:06:33.939 but also as a set of skills, as a literacy. And 00:06:33.939 --> 00:06:38.160 we focus on the human condition. A basic idea 00:06:38.160 --> 00:06:41.000 is that if we want to go to the moon, we have 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:43.420 to understand the laws of physics. And if we 00:06:43.420 --> 00:06:45.199 want to create a more peaceful world, we have 00:06:45.199 --> 00:06:47.540 to understand the human condition. What is it 00:06:47.540 --> 00:06:50.000 about humans that makes things like injustice 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:54.029 and violence and war possible? And then how do 00:06:54.029 --> 00:06:57.050 you reduce those factors? How do you reduce those 00:06:57.050 --> 00:06:59.889 root causes once you understand why we operate 00:06:59.889 --> 00:07:03.089 in these kinds of ways? I can just give you an 00:07:03.089 --> 00:07:06.750 example. So going back to looking at the human 00:07:06.750 --> 00:07:10.310 condition as a starting point, something we talk 00:07:10.310 --> 00:07:13.810 about is how humans have this natural aversion. 00:07:13.810 --> 00:07:16.110 We have a natural aversion to hurting and killing 00:07:16.110 --> 00:07:19.189 other humans. So we have a natural aversion to 00:07:19.189 --> 00:07:22.279 hurting and killing other humans. All the military 00:07:22.279 --> 00:07:25.379 history shows that this is how we are. Every 00:07:25.379 --> 00:07:29.060 war, every genocide, every form of slavery, they 00:07:29.060 --> 00:07:31.420 all require dehumanization. There's never been 00:07:31.420 --> 00:07:33.459 a war, never been a form of slavery, never been 00:07:33.459 --> 00:07:37.240 a genocide that hasn't used dehumanization, as 00:07:37.240 --> 00:07:40.019 you know. And the purpose of dehumanization is 00:07:40.019 --> 00:07:42.560 to protect the mind from feeling guilt and remorse. 00:07:43.290 --> 00:07:45.230 If we hurt people and we think that they're like 00:07:45.230 --> 00:07:47.810 us, we'll feel guilty, we'll feel remorseful. 00:07:47.910 --> 00:07:50.149 And so dehumanization's purpose is to protect 00:07:50.149 --> 00:07:52.529 the mind from feeling that. And we talk about 00:07:52.529 --> 00:07:55.970 six different kinds of dehumanization that have 00:07:55.970 --> 00:07:58.569 occurred throughout history. We use a metaphor 00:07:58.569 --> 00:08:02.069 of a hydra, a six -headed hydra of dehumanization. 00:08:02.509 --> 00:08:04.490 And I can just quickly go through these forms 00:08:04.490 --> 00:08:06.490 of dehumanization, which you're well aware of. 00:08:06.589 --> 00:08:10.600 The first one is psychological distance. which 00:08:10.600 --> 00:08:13.519 involves viewing people as subhuman or non -human 00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:16.699 in some way. And psychological distance always 00:08:16.699 --> 00:08:19.220 involves some kind of derogatory name -calling. 00:08:19.480 --> 00:08:22.540 You can go back thousands of years, and you can 00:08:22.540 --> 00:08:24.959 find psychological distance where people are 00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:27.360 viewed as subhuman. The Greeks are viewing people 00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:29.779 as barbarians and viewing people as savages. 00:08:29.839 --> 00:08:32.299 And you look at dehumanization toward African 00:08:32.299 --> 00:08:36.059 Americans, it always involves... Some kind of 00:08:36.059 --> 00:08:38.419 derogatory name -calling. The second kind of 00:08:38.419 --> 00:08:40.899 dehumanization, the second form of distance is 00:08:40.899 --> 00:08:43.879 moral distance, which is viewing people as irredeemably 00:08:43.879 --> 00:08:47.279 evil. And they're all evil. We're all good. God 00:08:47.279 --> 00:08:49.759 is on our side. And that's why civil wars are 00:08:49.759 --> 00:08:51.919 typically so bloody because civil wars, because 00:08:51.919 --> 00:08:53.860 you have the same culture, they typically involve 00:08:53.860 --> 00:08:56.960 a lot of moral distance. I'm good. They're evil. 00:08:57.120 --> 00:08:59.000 And if you believe that people are evil, you 00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:01.519 can kill lots of people if you believe that killing 00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:04.200 people is expelling evil from the world. The 00:09:04.200 --> 00:09:06.019 third kind of distance is mechanical distance, 00:09:06.139 --> 00:09:10.120 which means the farther away you are, the easier 00:09:10.120 --> 00:09:12.019 it is to kill people. It's easier to kill people 00:09:12.019 --> 00:09:14.379 by dropping bombs or using drones than it is 00:09:14.379 --> 00:09:16.740 to stab people or shoot people at close range. 00:09:17.480 --> 00:09:19.299 And Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman talks about 00:09:19.299 --> 00:09:21.100 those three kinds of distance in his book on 00:09:21.100 --> 00:09:23.320 killing. And we talk about three more heads of 00:09:23.320 --> 00:09:25.320 the Hydra. We talk about industrial distance, 00:09:25.539 --> 00:09:28.759 which involves viewing people as machines or 00:09:28.759 --> 00:09:31.480 objects or tools to be used, expendable tools. 00:09:32.299 --> 00:09:34.440 You can see that a lot with sex trafficking where 00:09:34.440 --> 00:09:36.799 people are viewed as disposable objects to be 00:09:36.799 --> 00:09:39.620 used. Numerical distance, which involves viewing 00:09:39.620 --> 00:09:41.980 people as numbers, the way that numbers can strip 00:09:41.980 --> 00:09:44.100 people of their humanity. And then the sixth 00:09:44.100 --> 00:09:48.399 form is bureaucratic distance. Bureaucracy, of 00:09:48.399 --> 00:09:50.720 course, as you know, thousands of Romans had 00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:53.649 a huge bureaucracy. The way that bureaucracy 00:09:53.649 --> 00:09:56.830 can create distance that removes people's humanity. 00:09:57.149 --> 00:09:59.350 And then we talk about three forms of rehumanization, 00:09:59.610 --> 00:10:02.049 how do we rehumanize people? The first form of 00:10:02.049 --> 00:10:06.570 rehumanization is interaction. That's why all 00:10:06.570 --> 00:10:11.389 dehumanization systems rely on some kind of segregation 00:10:11.389 --> 00:10:14.529 is because interaction is a way to rehumanize 00:10:14.529 --> 00:10:17.259 people. The second form is. Storytelling and 00:10:17.259 --> 00:10:19.919 art, this is why slave narrators are so important, 00:10:20.220 --> 00:10:23.259 the narrative of Frederick Douglass and even 00:10:23.259 --> 00:10:26.240 novels like Uncle Tom's Cabin because it rehumanized 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:28.460 people. And the third form of rehumanization 00:10:28.460 --> 00:10:33.399 is nonviolence. Nonviolence waging peace is such 00:10:33.399 --> 00:10:35.840 a potent, powerful way to rehumanize people. 00:10:36.740 --> 00:10:39.879 Nonviolence, as you know, refutes all the stereotypes 00:10:39.879 --> 00:10:42.460 that are created through dehumanization. All 00:10:42.460 --> 00:10:44.840 of those stereotypes nonviolence pushes up against. 00:10:46.660 --> 00:10:50.340 So in part of your work, you ask these questions. 00:10:51.379 --> 00:10:53.600 I'm going to read your three questions and then 00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:56.440 ask, you know, how do you actually do that? And 00:10:56.440 --> 00:11:01.000 are you having any luck getting schools to do 00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:03.580 that? And I was interested in this 30 years ago 00:11:03.580 --> 00:11:07.279 when I ran this huge community center in the 00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:10.480 east side of Richmond, Virginia, for really impoverished, 00:11:10.539 --> 00:11:14.179 disenfranchised African -Americans. So we had 00:11:14.179 --> 00:11:17.450 daycare, kindergarten. a full elementary school, 00:11:17.669 --> 00:11:21.710 and then their mothers taking classes while the 00:11:21.710 --> 00:11:24.549 school was going on. And I was desperate to figure 00:11:24.549 --> 00:11:27.950 out how to make it a center of nonviolence. I 00:11:27.950 --> 00:11:30.429 found this program, Hands Are For Helping, Not 00:11:30.429 --> 00:11:33.789 Hurting. So we put those signs all over the building, 00:11:33.850 --> 00:11:37.190 and we required that as a motto for all the little 00:11:37.190 --> 00:11:40.200 children. And we were slowly teaching everyone 00:11:40.200 --> 00:11:43.299 nonviolence. But you've got this down to an art 00:11:43.299 --> 00:11:45.460 form. So here are your questions. What if people 00:11:45.460 --> 00:11:48.720 were as well trained in waging peace as soldiers 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:51.580 are in waging war? What if people were trained 00:11:51.580 --> 00:11:54.779 to address root causes of problems rather than 00:11:54.779 --> 00:11:57.779 symptoms? What if we taught peace as a skill 00:11:57.779 --> 00:12:00.860 set, as a life -saving literacy, with as much 00:12:00.860 --> 00:12:03.799 rigor as we teach reading and writing? And my 00:12:03.799 --> 00:12:06.000 dream, and I know there are people doing this, 00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:09.049 for example, there's a great educator. working 00:12:09.049 --> 00:12:11.450 with the whole state of Rhode Island trying to 00:12:11.450 --> 00:12:14.649 get nonviolence in every classroom. Gandhi said 00:12:14.649 --> 00:12:18.850 that's the future. Every class in the whole planet 00:12:18.850 --> 00:12:22.789 at every level has to teach nonviolent conflict 00:12:22.789 --> 00:12:26.370 resolution for the rest of humanity. That's the 00:12:26.370 --> 00:12:29.230 path. How are you actually doing that? Are you 00:12:29.230 --> 00:12:31.690 getting in schools? Are you able to train trainers 00:12:31.690 --> 00:12:34.649 or train educators? Or do you have pilot programs? 00:12:34.929 --> 00:12:40.000 I'm just wondering. Yeah, I know you, you know, 00:12:40.039 --> 00:12:42.279 Bernard Lafayette really well. He's been on the 00:12:42.279 --> 00:12:46.779 podcast, yeah. Yes, and you know the story where 00:12:46.779 --> 00:12:49.659 he, Martin Luther King Jr.'s last words to him 00:12:49.659 --> 00:12:57.220 were, we are going to institutionalize and internationalize 00:12:57.220 --> 00:13:00.919 nonviolence, that nonviolence has to be taught 00:13:00.919 --> 00:13:03.059 to people, like reading and writing is taught 00:13:03.059 --> 00:13:09.480 to people. Our approach has been, so viewing 00:13:09.480 --> 00:13:12.139 pieces of literacy, when you think about reading 00:13:12.139 --> 00:13:15.399 and writing literacy and math literacy, you have 00:13:15.399 --> 00:13:18.080 the fundamentals. You have to learn how to count 00:13:18.080 --> 00:13:21.220 with mathematics before you can do addition and 00:13:21.220 --> 00:13:24.039 subtraction. You have to learn phonics and vowels 00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:28.080 and consonants with reading before you can deal 00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:31.860 with sentences and paragraphs. And we think there's 00:13:31.860 --> 00:13:33.860 a lot of fundamentals and basics that are skipped 00:13:33.860 --> 00:13:39.519 over in our culture. And, for example, I grew 00:13:39.519 --> 00:13:41.360 up playing the violin and you have to learn just 00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:45.500 basic intonation and how to play a scale. And 00:13:45.500 --> 00:13:48.580 dealing with things like racism, it's more like 00:13:48.580 --> 00:13:52.340 trigonometry or playing, you know, more an advanced 00:13:52.340 --> 00:13:56.019 piece. It's more complex. And a lot of times 00:13:56.019 --> 00:13:58.320 we talk about these very big picture things and 00:13:58.320 --> 00:14:00.580 people don't have the fundamentals. They don't 00:14:00.580 --> 00:14:02.799 have the basics that can really help them understand 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:06.629 those things. be able to frame those things in 00:14:06.629 --> 00:14:10.549 terms of human behavior so we really focus on 00:14:10.549 --> 00:14:12.690 relevance how do we make things relevant for 00:14:12.690 --> 00:14:17.009 people where viewing non -violence is a set of 00:14:17.009 --> 00:14:18.850 skills that is going to help people in their 00:14:18.850 --> 00:14:21.429 daily life it's going to help them in their own 00:14:21.429 --> 00:14:22.970 personal life it's going to help them in their 00:14:22.970 --> 00:14:25.370 relationships it's going to help them in their 00:14:25.370 --> 00:14:27.049 in the workplace it's going to help them interacting 00:14:27.049 --> 00:14:30.389 with people just we're bombarded with so many 00:14:30.389 --> 00:14:32.730 messages that can create confusion and hopelessness 00:14:32.730 --> 00:14:35.330 and despair and addiction Being able to have 00:14:35.330 --> 00:14:38.269 tools that can help you navigate that is an important 00:14:38.269 --> 00:14:40.909 set of skills you can just use as a human being. 00:14:41.210 --> 00:14:43.370 But then you can use those skills for dealing 00:14:43.370 --> 00:14:46.509 with broader issues. Of course, you need to add 00:14:46.509 --> 00:14:48.870 more skills. So if you're going to play Paganini 00:14:48.870 --> 00:14:52.529 and the violin, you need more skills in addition 00:14:52.529 --> 00:14:54.789 to what the basic skills are going to be. But 00:14:54.789 --> 00:14:57.230 you still have to have those basic skills of 00:14:57.230 --> 00:14:59.710 intonation, being able to play in tune, things 00:14:59.710 --> 00:15:03.820 like that. So what we found is the traction we 00:15:03.820 --> 00:15:05.940 have been getting in schools with students and 00:15:05.940 --> 00:15:09.279 educators is educators find this useful for their 00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:11.720 own lives. They say, well, this is helpful for 00:15:11.720 --> 00:15:14.080 my colleagues dealing with students. It's helpful 00:15:14.080 --> 00:15:15.980 dealing with the administration. It's helpful 00:15:15.980 --> 00:15:18.360 with dealing with an angry parent who's calling. 00:15:18.899 --> 00:15:22.639 And if we can't make this something that people 00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:26.230 are going to find useful, like a... So we really 00:15:26.230 --> 00:15:28.190 think of nonviolence as like a refrigerator. 00:15:28.490 --> 00:15:30.809 If it's a useful tool, people are going to use 00:15:30.809 --> 00:15:33.230 it. And if we can make it useful for people, 00:15:33.370 --> 00:15:36.649 that's a starting point where it can start to 00:15:36.649 --> 00:15:39.730 gain traction. And then once people find it useful, 00:15:39.909 --> 00:15:43.070 then they often want to know more because there's 00:15:43.070 --> 00:15:44.850 more ways in which this can help us solve human 00:15:44.850 --> 00:15:47.230 problems on a small scale but also a much larger 00:15:47.230 --> 00:15:51.470 national and global scale. Well, thank you. That's 00:15:51.470 --> 00:15:53.870 very exciting. What kind of reaction have you 00:15:53.870 --> 00:15:56.110 been finding over the years in these programs 00:15:56.110 --> 00:15:58.289 and workshops you've been doing? You've been 00:15:58.289 --> 00:16:01.990 all over the country, right, Paul? Yes. I think, 00:16:02.090 --> 00:16:04.669 I mean, something we've been saying for a number 00:16:04.669 --> 00:16:08.610 of years is we've been saying how the greatest, 00:16:08.870 --> 00:16:11.490 the most dangerous weapons in the 21st century 00:16:11.490 --> 00:16:13.269 are not bullets and bombs. The most dangerous 00:16:13.269 --> 00:16:15.450 weapons in the 21st century are the weaponization 00:16:15.450 --> 00:16:20.250 of rage, mistrust, alienation. and other tangles 00:16:20.250 --> 00:16:25.990 of trauma nihilism cynicism and how the weaponization 00:16:25.990 --> 00:16:27.970 of those tangles of trauma and the manipulation 00:16:27.970 --> 00:16:30.009 of those tangles of trauma make all forms of 00:16:30.009 --> 00:16:32.789 violence more likely that what we're seeing now 00:16:32.789 --> 00:16:35.789 is the most dangerous weapons of war are really 00:16:35.789 --> 00:16:40.049 manipulating and leveraging and weaponizing people's 00:16:40.049 --> 00:16:43.330 rage their mistrust their alienation and that's 00:16:43.330 --> 00:16:45.570 going to make violence more like that's going 00:16:45.570 --> 00:16:48.279 to make nuclear war more likely to happen And 00:16:48.279 --> 00:16:52.019 I think with social media and what people are 00:16:52.019 --> 00:16:55.200 seeing in terms of the civil discourse in the 00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:57.539 US, a lot of these issues are really hitting 00:16:57.539 --> 00:17:02.179 home for them. And talking about social media, 00:17:02.220 --> 00:17:04.799 for example, is a peace issue, right? I mean, 00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:08.119 where does propaganda do most of its work today? 00:17:08.180 --> 00:17:11.630 It's on social media. And where do these messages 00:17:11.630 --> 00:17:14.390 of violence really start to proliferate? A lot 00:17:14.390 --> 00:17:16.849 of it's in social media. That's given us a way 00:17:16.849 --> 00:17:20.650 to talk about these issues where thinking of 00:17:20.650 --> 00:17:23.549 social media as one of the most urgent peace 00:17:23.549 --> 00:17:25.329 issues that we have to deal with because of how 00:17:25.329 --> 00:17:27.410 it affects every other issue that people care 00:17:27.410 --> 00:17:43.769 about. important this peace education is for 00:17:43.769 --> 00:17:47.230 all of us everywhere, especially for a new generation. 00:17:48.450 --> 00:17:52.490 How is all of this given you hope, you know, 00:17:52.490 --> 00:17:55.390 given the state of the world and the Trump administration, 00:17:55.630 --> 00:17:57.690 and we seem to be closer to the nuclear war than 00:17:57.690 --> 00:18:01.950 ever, and environmental destruction, and not 00:18:01.950 --> 00:18:06.529 to mention the horrific slaughter in Gaza? And 00:18:06.529 --> 00:18:10.009 Ukraine, Africa, the violence on our streets, 00:18:10.130 --> 00:18:14.450 gun violence. So has this been a hopeful experience 00:18:14.450 --> 00:18:18.369 for you? And where are you seeing hope in young 00:18:18.369 --> 00:18:21.069 people who are learning the art of peacemaking? 00:18:21.769 --> 00:18:24.910 That's a great question. For a number of years, 00:18:25.190 --> 00:18:30.730 I've been talking about if we don't teach people 00:18:30.730 --> 00:18:33.950 peace literacy, if we don't teach people nonviolence. 00:18:35.369 --> 00:18:39.349 And we're teaching people the opposite. I mean, 00:18:39.410 --> 00:18:42.930 that's not going to be a good outcome. And I 00:18:42.930 --> 00:18:45.450 think a lot of people got complacent. They just 00:18:45.450 --> 00:18:48.950 thought that peace is inevitable. We talk a lot 00:18:48.950 --> 00:18:51.009 about how war is not inevitable. We talk about 00:18:51.009 --> 00:18:53.210 how humans are not naturally violent. Yet humans 00:18:53.210 --> 00:18:55.829 can become incredibly violent through trauma 00:18:55.829 --> 00:19:00.170 and other forms of trauma, manipulation, things 00:19:00.170 --> 00:19:03.690 like that can propel people into extremely violent 00:19:03.690 --> 00:19:10.190 behavior. And we aren't teaching people any of 00:19:10.190 --> 00:19:11.990 these tools or skills. We're teaching people 00:19:11.990 --> 00:19:14.869 the opposite, and we're seeing the consequences 00:19:14.869 --> 00:19:18.470 of that. So just as the idea that war is inevitable 00:19:18.470 --> 00:19:20.670 is very dangerous, the idea that peace is inevitable 00:19:20.670 --> 00:19:23.230 is also very dangerous. People think, well, we're 00:19:23.230 --> 00:19:25.190 just on this trajectory toward a more peaceful 00:19:25.190 --> 00:19:27.410 and just world. It's all written in stone. We 00:19:27.410 --> 00:19:30.829 don't have to do anything, and we're just going 00:19:30.829 --> 00:19:33.109 to have a more peaceful world. It's just going 00:19:33.109 --> 00:19:36.369 to be an inevitable result of just – the forces 00:19:36.369 --> 00:19:38.990 of history, when we really have to do something 00:19:38.990 --> 00:19:43.869 to push humanity in that direction. And so what's 00:19:43.869 --> 00:19:45.970 happening now are things that I thought were 00:19:45.970 --> 00:19:50.789 going to happen for a number of years. I mean, 00:19:50.829 --> 00:19:53.650 in March of 2016, I was telling people I thought 00:19:53.650 --> 00:19:55.849 Donald Trump would win at least two terms. And 00:19:55.849 --> 00:19:57.470 when he lost, I thought he was going to win in 00:19:57.470 --> 00:19:59.849 2020. But when he lost in 2020, I was saying, 00:19:59.950 --> 00:20:01.970 I never said there were going to be consecutive 00:20:01.970 --> 00:20:05.549 terms. I think he's going to win in 2024. I think 00:20:05.549 --> 00:20:09.210 that there are traumas and pains and there are 00:20:09.210 --> 00:20:12.390 hungers in our society that aren't being addressed 00:20:12.390 --> 00:20:16.849 and that are being ignored and neglected. And 00:20:16.849 --> 00:20:22.329 there's an appetite for things that we aren't 00:20:22.329 --> 00:20:25.829 addressing in a way that's going to help deal 00:20:25.829 --> 00:20:30.890 with those root causes. If we don't teach peace 00:20:30.890 --> 00:20:32.710 and don't teach peace literacy and don't teach 00:20:32.710 --> 00:20:35.650 nonviolence, right, this is necessary for human 00:20:35.650 --> 00:20:38.029 survival. And if what we're seeing in the world 00:20:38.029 --> 00:20:40.490 today doesn't show that, I'm not sure what does. 00:20:40.769 --> 00:20:44.470 Yeah. As you know, I've been talking about and 00:20:44.470 --> 00:20:49.269 teaching nonviolence, specifically using that 00:20:49.269 --> 00:20:53.349 word for 45 years in every venue I can think 00:20:53.349 --> 00:20:58.799 of until they kick me out. You know, it's just, 00:20:58.900 --> 00:21:02.099 I don't know if it's the word. You know, it's 00:21:02.099 --> 00:21:04.500 such a limited, clumsy word, or you just can't 00:21:04.500 --> 00:21:07.880 go far. You know, in New Mexico, where I lived 00:21:07.880 --> 00:21:13.259 for years, the birthplace of the bomb. I spoke 00:21:13.259 --> 00:21:15.599 at the high school in Los Alamos and all those 00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:18.099 kids' parents are millionaires building nuclear 00:21:18.099 --> 00:21:20.400 weapons. And they said, hey, our parents told 00:21:20.400 --> 00:21:22.680 us we're the greatest peacemakers in the world. 00:21:22.759 --> 00:21:25.880 We know all about peace. We are the peacemakers 00:21:25.880 --> 00:21:30.079 because we built the bomb. So it's really tough. 00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:32.559 So that's why I stick with this word nonviolence 00:21:32.559 --> 00:21:35.200 and I so appreciate that you do. But one of the 00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:39.380 things I've tried to do is keep asking people. 00:21:40.419 --> 00:21:43.720 even though it's such a clumsy word. But Gandhi 00:21:43.720 --> 00:21:46.200 used it morning, noon, and night, and then so 00:21:46.200 --> 00:21:50.180 did Martin Luther King. And it's yet to be co 00:21:50.180 --> 00:21:52.319 -opted by the culture, whereas the word peace 00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:55.720 has, and so is the word love. So I keep asking 00:21:55.720 --> 00:21:57.880 folks to define it, and I keep trying to define 00:21:57.880 --> 00:22:00.759 it in my books and lectures and stuff. How would 00:22:00.759 --> 00:22:03.000 you define it? So what are the ingredients? And 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:05.420 when you say the word nonviolence, what does 00:22:05.420 --> 00:22:10.789 it mean for you? That's a great question. I think 00:22:10.789 --> 00:22:13.430 it's a number of things, just like mathematics 00:22:13.430 --> 00:22:17.349 is a number of things, and music is a number 00:22:17.349 --> 00:22:22.230 of things. It is, as you know, a lifestyle. It 00:22:22.230 --> 00:22:25.509 is a way of being. It's a way of thinking. It's 00:22:25.509 --> 00:22:26.970 a way of acting. It's a way of moving through 00:22:26.970 --> 00:22:30.470 the world. It's an understanding. It's a set 00:22:30.470 --> 00:22:34.690 of skills that we use. And I think it comes back 00:22:34.690 --> 00:22:37.630 to so many fundamental things that are part of 00:22:37.630 --> 00:22:44.490 being human. Something that we talk about is 00:22:44.490 --> 00:22:47.670 the idea that there's different depths of knowing 00:22:47.670 --> 00:22:49.769 something. There's different depths of understanding. 00:22:50.210 --> 00:22:54.390 So I can know intellectually that a spider, a 00:22:54.390 --> 00:22:56.630 small non -poisonous spider can't hurt me. I 00:22:56.630 --> 00:23:00.019 can know that on an intellectual level. I could 00:23:00.019 --> 00:23:01.980 write a five -page essay about how this small 00:23:01.980 --> 00:23:04.319 non -poisonous spider can't hurt me, but when 00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:06.799 it's on my arm, I might be shaking in fear, right? 00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:08.920 I might be very nervous because I know it on 00:23:08.920 --> 00:23:10.900 an intellectual level, but I don't know it on 00:23:10.900 --> 00:23:12.900 this deeper unconscious level. And in a similar 00:23:12.900 --> 00:23:15.319 way, I can know intellectually that I'm not going 00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:17.480 to fall off a balcony, and I can write a five 00:23:17.480 --> 00:23:19.740 -page essay about that. I know it on that intellectual 00:23:19.740 --> 00:23:22.380 level, but when I'm on the balcony, I'm shivering 00:23:22.380 --> 00:23:25.039 and I'm shaking and my knees are buckling. And 00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:27.559 a lot of ideas about nonviolence, people know 00:23:27.559 --> 00:23:29.900 it on this intellectual level, but they don't 00:23:29.900 --> 00:23:32.059 know it on this deeper unconscious level. They 00:23:32.059 --> 00:23:33.920 don't know it on this more experiential level 00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:37.480 where you see someone's humanity in a way that's 00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:41.640 visceral. And so part of the teaching, as you 00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:44.000 know, is getting that intellectual understanding 00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:46.759 across, which is an important thing for framing 00:23:46.759 --> 00:23:49.519 ideas, but then how do we internalize that knowledge? 00:23:50.279 --> 00:23:53.579 And so a big part of nonviolence is the… The 00:23:53.579 --> 00:23:57.920 deep knowing that is harder to do. So the education 00:23:57.920 --> 00:24:00.880 around nonviolence and the practice of nonviolence 00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:04.299 has to involve that deeper knowing. So that when 00:24:04.299 --> 00:24:06.599 you're on the balcony, when you're dealing with 00:24:06.599 --> 00:24:08.380 a non -poisonous spider, you know it on this 00:24:08.380 --> 00:24:10.799 more unconscious level that feels like it's deep 00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:14.839 in your bones. And that process can take... a 00:24:14.839 --> 00:24:16.579 lot of effort, and that's something we have to 00:24:16.579 --> 00:24:18.740 think about how we do in terms of educating people. 00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:23.779 That's so great, Paul. I spoke to a lot of Buddhists 00:24:23.779 --> 00:24:26.960 this weekend, and I was trying to unpack this 00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:29.319 word with them and how Gandhi first used the 00:24:29.319 --> 00:24:34.579 clumsy Jain word ahimsa, meaning do no harm in 00:24:34.579 --> 00:24:37.559 thought, word, or deed. And I said, okay, folks, 00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:40.900 you're holy Buddhist peacemakers. Let's look 00:24:40.900 --> 00:24:43.940 at that. You're never going to hurt another person 00:24:43.940 --> 00:24:47.039 ever again for the rest of your life. You're 00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:52.079 never going to say another harmful word to another 00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:55.259 person for the rest of your life. You're never 00:24:55.259 --> 00:24:58.660 going to think another harmful thought to another 00:24:58.660 --> 00:25:00.420 person for the rest of your life. And everyone 00:25:00.420 --> 00:25:03.000 broke out laughing. And these were Buddhists 00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:06.619 in meditation. And yet Gandhi said, as you said, 00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:10.430 the deep, the deep. How did you call it? The 00:25:10.430 --> 00:25:14.589 deeper level of... Knowing. Deep knowing. That's 00:25:14.589 --> 00:25:16.769 such a beautiful, interesting, mysterious phrase. 00:25:16.869 --> 00:25:19.869 I would call it a spirituality of nonviolence, 00:25:19.890 --> 00:25:23.970 trusting in however you would name God or higher 00:25:23.970 --> 00:25:28.049 power. But Gandhi goes so far as to say that 00:25:28.049 --> 00:25:33.029 active creative nonviolence is a force of truth 00:25:33.029 --> 00:25:35.490 and universal love more powerful than all the 00:25:35.490 --> 00:25:38.930 weapons of the world combined. So he went really 00:25:38.930 --> 00:25:43.089 deep and deep knowing, perhaps more than anyone 00:25:43.089 --> 00:25:48.349 in thousands of years. And how do we teach that, 00:25:48.529 --> 00:25:51.569 Paul? You know, that peace itself, what we're 00:25:51.569 --> 00:25:53.529 talking about, is not just sitting around doing 00:25:53.529 --> 00:25:58.789 nothing or boredom, but is a oneness with creation. 00:25:59.130 --> 00:26:02.430 And, you know, you could see it, whether it's 00:26:02.430 --> 00:26:04.549 in Gandhi's struggle to get the British to leave 00:26:04.549 --> 00:26:07.740 or Dr. King to get... to end segregation, all 00:26:07.740 --> 00:26:11.019 the scores of nonviolent movements in recent 00:26:11.019 --> 00:26:14.799 decades, that if people stand up together in 00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:20.160 people -powered nonviolent movements, the structures 00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:23.690 and forces of violence will back down. How do 00:26:23.690 --> 00:26:25.750 you teach that, Paul? This is what I've been 00:26:25.750 --> 00:26:27.990 trying to figure out, and I'm not sure about 00:26:27.990 --> 00:26:30.930 it. I had a lot of conversations with Jim Lawson, 00:26:30.990 --> 00:26:32.950 the civil rights leader and legendary teacher 00:26:32.950 --> 00:26:36.710 of nonviolence. So specifically, Paul, I'm getting 00:26:36.710 --> 00:26:40.430 at what's it like for you to talk about the word 00:26:40.430 --> 00:26:43.690 nonviolence since you're a teacher of teaching 00:26:43.690 --> 00:26:48.490 on this? I can respond to that. I want to go 00:26:48.490 --> 00:26:50.029 back to something you asked earlier. I don't 00:26:50.029 --> 00:26:52.029 know if I responded to it fully. You asked about 00:26:52.029 --> 00:26:57.309 what leaves me hopeful. I feel hope that we can 00:26:57.309 --> 00:27:00.690 understand these problems. If we couldn't comprehend 00:27:00.690 --> 00:27:02.750 why people are doing what they're doing and it 00:27:02.750 --> 00:27:06.049 was just bewildering, that would leave me hopeless. 00:27:06.170 --> 00:27:09.369 But I really think there are explainable causes 00:27:09.369 --> 00:27:11.430 for why we're doing what we're doing, and there 00:27:11.430 --> 00:27:16.190 is a path out of it. So if we can predict behavior 00:27:16.190 --> 00:27:18.150 and we understand why that behavior is happening, 00:27:18.269 --> 00:27:20.390 we have a path out of it, that leaves me hopeful. 00:27:20.890 --> 00:27:22.890 And it doesn't matter how bad things seem to 00:27:22.890 --> 00:27:26.650 get. There is a path. And I think in going back 00:27:26.650 --> 00:27:29.589 to what you asked just about nonviolence is the 00:27:29.589 --> 00:27:32.369 deeper knowing, the deeper depths of understanding 00:27:32.369 --> 00:27:36.950 and knowing where you not just you see, but you. 00:27:37.259 --> 00:27:39.339 You feel, you know in this deeper way the dignity 00:27:39.339 --> 00:27:43.259 of human life and animal life. It uplifts you. 00:27:43.359 --> 00:27:46.519 It uplifts everyone around you. The path of trauma 00:27:46.519 --> 00:27:49.700 is just a dead -end road to misery. It doesn't 00:27:49.700 --> 00:27:51.640 uplift anyone. It hurts people around you. This 00:27:51.640 --> 00:27:55.420 is the path out of the pain and the badness that 00:27:55.420 --> 00:27:59.339 people feel. And succumbing to rage and mistrust 00:27:59.339 --> 00:28:01.900 and alienation, it's not good for you. It's not 00:28:01.900 --> 00:28:03.579 good for anyone around you. It's not good for 00:28:03.579 --> 00:28:05.859 the country. It's not good for the world. So 00:28:05.859 --> 00:28:09.220 the fact that nonviolence helps people and uplifts 00:28:09.220 --> 00:28:12.880 people, this is the path that we need to take, 00:28:13.000 --> 00:28:16.059 and people can benefit from it as they move through 00:28:16.059 --> 00:28:19.599 that process. That also leaves me very hopeful. 00:28:19.819 --> 00:28:21.960 Now, the question you ask is, how do we teach 00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:25.519 that? And that's something that we have been 00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:28.640 working on for a number of years. And as you 00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:30.940 know, the challenge of education that makes it 00:28:30.940 --> 00:28:32.599 so different from other things is everyone's 00:28:32.599 --> 00:28:35.509 invited to the party. We have to figure out how 00:28:35.509 --> 00:28:37.130 to teach reading and writing and mathematics 00:28:37.130 --> 00:28:39.349 to everybody. We have to try to help everybody 00:28:39.349 --> 00:28:42.430 understand these things. And it doesn't matter 00:28:42.430 --> 00:28:45.589 if people have different learning abilities and 00:28:45.589 --> 00:28:47.130 things like that. We have to figure out how to 00:28:47.130 --> 00:28:49.150 make this work for everyone in our society. And 00:28:49.150 --> 00:28:51.069 we have to provide the resources necessary for 00:28:51.069 --> 00:28:52.869 that. And so we've been working for a number 00:28:52.869 --> 00:28:55.029 of years because like reading and writing and 00:28:55.029 --> 00:28:57.710 mathematics, if you start early, that's going 00:28:57.710 --> 00:29:00.089 to be advantageous. If you can start teaching 00:29:00.089 --> 00:29:02.289 the building blocks of this at a young age and 00:29:02.289 --> 00:29:04.869 then. As people get older, you can teach them 00:29:04.869 --> 00:29:09.470 new and more complex things. And I'd love to 00:29:09.470 --> 00:29:11.329 talk more about that, but that's something we've 00:29:11.329 --> 00:29:12.869 been working on. And that's the biggest challenge 00:29:12.869 --> 00:29:14.970 is how do you teach this in a way where people 00:29:14.970 --> 00:29:17.490 are really going to be able to internalize it 00:29:17.490 --> 00:29:21.950 and live the ideas? Well, thank you. Well, I 00:29:21.950 --> 00:29:24.970 think it's maybe the most important thing we 00:29:24.970 --> 00:29:27.230 can do with our lives. And everyone at every 00:29:27.230 --> 00:29:30.710 level, wherever you are, whatever age, can go 00:29:30.710 --> 00:29:34.170 forth and talk about. Peace and nonviolence and 00:29:34.170 --> 00:29:37.150 how can we be more nonviolent to ourselves and 00:29:37.150 --> 00:29:39.690 one another and our families and our communities 00:29:39.690 --> 00:29:42.829 and our churches, especially in the schools and 00:29:42.829 --> 00:29:46.190 then in our politics and then toward the world. 00:29:46.230 --> 00:29:49.799 And that's why I so wanted to have you. talk 00:29:49.799 --> 00:29:54.319 on this podcast to encourage people to be peace 00:29:54.319 --> 00:29:56.700 educators and teachers, and I wanted people to 00:29:56.700 --> 00:29:58.900 know about you. You've written this beautiful, 00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:02.420 marvelous little six -volume series of small, 00:30:02.420 --> 00:30:05.420 accessible books. You call it the Road to Peace 00:30:05.420 --> 00:30:08.180 series. So tell me a little bit about that and 00:30:08.180 --> 00:30:10.400 what's your hope and your message there in your 00:30:10.400 --> 00:30:15.279 books. Oh, yes. I just had a realization. There 00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:18.339 is a way for me to... talk a little bit about 00:30:18.339 --> 00:30:21.400 how we can teach this that I just remembered. 00:30:22.339 --> 00:30:25.740 We talk about three different ways to teach nonviolence 00:30:25.740 --> 00:30:29.220 in peace literacy. The first way is through curriculum, 00:30:29.400 --> 00:30:33.039 and that's a whole process. How do we make that 00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:35.299 curriculum accessible to different ages? How 00:30:35.299 --> 00:30:38.079 do we scaffold the information for different 00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:41.039 age groups? That's important. The second way 00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:43.500 we teach nonviolence is through example. And 00:30:43.500 --> 00:30:45.960 humans learn a lot through example, through the 00:30:45.960 --> 00:30:51.240 example of other people, just observing and seeing 00:30:51.240 --> 00:30:54.779 their behavior or being a recipient of their 00:30:54.779 --> 00:30:57.720 behavior. So example is incredibly important. 00:30:57.859 --> 00:30:59.980 We need people to be an example of this. And 00:30:59.980 --> 00:31:03.039 we don't see a lot of examples. There are many 00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:04.940 examples today, but they're not the examples 00:31:04.940 --> 00:31:08.069 that are typically. held up in our culture or 00:31:08.069 --> 00:31:11.410 in the popular media. Example is critically important. 00:31:11.690 --> 00:31:14.430 And then the third way is through culture. So 00:31:14.430 --> 00:31:16.009 if we are going to teach nonviolence, it has 00:31:16.009 --> 00:31:18.069 to be through curriculum. We have to think of 00:31:18.069 --> 00:31:19.690 it like a literacy, like reading and writing 00:31:19.690 --> 00:31:22.369 and mathematics. And we have to devote those 00:31:22.369 --> 00:31:26.289 same resources and that same rigor and commitment 00:31:26.289 --> 00:31:28.769 and focus. And then we have to teach it through 00:31:28.769 --> 00:31:30.990 our own example. And that's an incredibly powerful 00:31:30.990 --> 00:31:33.309 teaching tool, right? The example you offer. 00:31:34.170 --> 00:31:36.950 The example other peacemakers offer, the example 00:31:36.950 --> 00:31:38.890 people can offer in their homes, in their communities. 00:31:38.950 --> 00:31:41.170 And then we have to build a culture that can 00:31:41.170 --> 00:31:45.509 also teach and reinforce nonviolence. It's great. 00:31:45.589 --> 00:31:47.609 You know, with our work with Pope Francis, we 00:31:47.609 --> 00:31:51.089 got him writing that and saying that around the 00:31:51.089 --> 00:31:54.490 world, calling for new cultures of nonviolence. 00:31:54.750 --> 00:31:57.549 And I've never heard that phrase until like 10 00:31:57.549 --> 00:32:02.789 years ago in Rome. And I love that. It just lifts 00:32:02.789 --> 00:32:06.529 up a new image or engages our imagination. Do 00:32:06.529 --> 00:32:08.190 you want to say anything about your books? And 00:32:08.190 --> 00:32:09.750 then we'll probably have to wrap it up because 00:32:09.750 --> 00:32:17.690 we're out of time. They focus on war. They mainly 00:32:17.690 --> 00:32:20.309 focus on the human condition and some of the 00:32:20.309 --> 00:32:22.470 building blocks for peace literacy, which is 00:32:22.470 --> 00:32:25.549 thinking about the human condition, thinking 00:32:25.549 --> 00:32:28.049 about non -physical needs that are so important 00:32:28.049 --> 00:32:30.390 for people, purpose and meaning, belonging, self 00:32:30.390 --> 00:32:34.839 -worth. And the need for expression, the need 00:32:34.839 --> 00:32:37.579 for explanations. And when we don't have those 00:32:37.579 --> 00:32:40.319 needs met in healthy ways, we will meet those 00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:42.079 needs in unhealthy ways. If we don't have healthy 00:32:42.079 --> 00:32:43.819 purpose and meaning in life, if we don't have 00:32:43.819 --> 00:32:45.599 accurate explanations for things, if we don't 00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:47.680 have healthy forms of expression, if we don't 00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:49.240 have healthy forms of self -worth and belonging, 00:32:49.380 --> 00:32:52.519 we will feed that hunger in unhealthy ways. And 00:32:52.519 --> 00:32:56.119 it covers a number of concepts that form some 00:32:56.119 --> 00:32:58.920 of the building blocks of peace literacy. And 00:32:58.920 --> 00:33:02.539 our website, peaceliteracy .org, has free curriculum 00:33:02.539 --> 00:33:05.460 and all kinds of resources for people. So tell 00:33:05.460 --> 00:33:09.039 me more about that, peaceliteracy .org. And can 00:33:09.039 --> 00:33:12.259 they get your books on that website too? Yeah, 00:33:12.259 --> 00:33:14.819 there's a link there. And for example, the information 00:33:14.819 --> 00:33:17.460 on dehumanization, rehumanization, the curriculum 00:33:17.460 --> 00:33:20.279 we offer, information about the online courses 00:33:20.279 --> 00:33:24.279 and educators. Peace Literacy is taught in a 00:33:24.279 --> 00:33:30.220 number of schools. Ohio and Canada and refugee 00:33:30.220 --> 00:33:34.960 camp in Uganda and California, Oregon. It's taught 00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:37.700 in a number of different places. And it's really 00:33:37.700 --> 00:33:40.299 a grassroots movement. We're a nonprofit, so 00:33:40.299 --> 00:33:44.759 we try to do everything we can to help educators 00:33:44.759 --> 00:33:47.079 incorporate this into their teaching and into 00:33:47.079 --> 00:33:49.559 their interactions with other people. And we're 00:33:49.559 --> 00:33:51.900 glad to support anyone who would like to reach 00:33:51.900 --> 00:33:55.140 out to us at our website. Great. So I hope everyone 00:33:55.140 --> 00:33:57.619 listening can go and check out Paul's website, 00:33:57.799 --> 00:34:03.700 peaceliteracy .org, especially to get materials 00:34:03.700 --> 00:34:06.539 about teaching peace in schools or to get them 00:34:06.539 --> 00:34:09.679 to teachers. Paul, we're really unfortunately 00:34:09.679 --> 00:34:11.739 out of time, but is there anything else you'd 00:34:11.739 --> 00:34:16.039 like to say before we end? I'm just really grateful 00:34:16.039 --> 00:34:21.369 for... All you do for peace, John, and the work 00:34:21.369 --> 00:34:25.829 becomes more urgently needed every day. The case 00:34:25.829 --> 00:34:30.750 for the important necessity of nonviolence becomes 00:34:30.750 --> 00:34:36.530 more obvious every day. And I'm hopeful. And 00:34:36.530 --> 00:34:39.949 that hope is, I call it realistic hope. It's 00:34:39.949 --> 00:34:43.750 hope based on things that we have to do. And 00:34:43.750 --> 00:34:46.969 we can't succumb to it. despair, but we also 00:34:46.969 --> 00:34:49.389 can't succumb to naive hope that things are going 00:34:49.389 --> 00:34:53.730 to work themselves out if we don't move humanity 00:34:53.730 --> 00:34:57.670 forward. Thank you so much, Paul Chappelle, for 00:34:57.670 --> 00:35:00.769 speaking with me. A blessing. And thank you, 00:35:00.769 --> 00:35:02.630 friends, for listening to the Nonviolent Jesus 00:35:02.630 --> 00:35:05.750 podcast. You can hear more podcasts and find 00:35:05.750 --> 00:35:09.289 other upcoming Zoom programs at BeatitudesCenter 00:35:09.289 --> 00:35:12.889 .org. And please consider offering a donation 00:35:12.889 --> 00:35:16.070 to support this free work. And if you can, please 00:35:16.070 --> 00:35:19.349 leave some positive feedback or review at the 00:35:19.349 --> 00:35:21.829 National Catholic Reporter. Maybe write them 00:35:21.829 --> 00:35:24.869 a letter to the editor or Apple or Spotify or 00:35:24.869 --> 00:35:27.699 YouTube or whatever platform you use. And most 00:35:27.699 --> 00:35:29.559 of all, friends, please help spread the word 00:35:29.559 --> 00:35:32.599 of the podcast by telling your friends and colleagues 00:35:32.599 --> 00:35:35.480 and other church folk. So may the God of peace 00:35:35.480 --> 00:35:38.159 bless you all and keep on following the nonviolent 00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:40.059 Jesus. See you next time.