WEBVTT 00:00:16.839 --> 00:00:19.780 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:19.780 --> 00:00:23.000 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:26.239 for part two of our conversation with social 00:00:26.239 --> 00:00:29.539 justice activist and advocate, Sister Simone 00:00:29.539 --> 00:00:34.159 Campbell. This is a project of www .beatitudescenter 00:00:34.159 --> 00:00:37.600 .org, where you can find many other podcasts 00:00:37.600 --> 00:00:40.520 and regular Zoom programs on the nonviolence 00:00:40.520 --> 00:00:43.020 of Jesus and practicing nonviolence and working 00:00:43.020 --> 00:00:47.100 for justice, disarmament, and peace. So let's 00:00:47.100 --> 00:00:49.259 begin, as we always do, with a little prayer. 00:00:49.420 --> 00:00:52.640 And I invite you, wherever you are, just to pause 00:00:52.640 --> 00:00:55.700 for a moment and take a deep breath. And just 00:00:55.700 --> 00:00:59.299 to relax and notice how you're feeling. Let's 00:00:59.299 --> 00:01:02.859 all recenter ourselves. And again, enter into 00:01:02.859 --> 00:01:05.420 the presence of the God of peace who loves you 00:01:05.420 --> 00:01:08.980 infinitely and personally and loves everyone 00:01:08.980 --> 00:01:12.260 everywhere. And let's welcome the nonviolent 00:01:12.260 --> 00:01:17.129 Jesus. and his Holy Spirit here with us and ask 00:01:17.129 --> 00:01:19.750 for the grace to follow him more faithfully and 00:01:19.750 --> 00:01:26.689 to do God's will. God of peace, thank you for 00:01:26.689 --> 00:01:29.530 all the blessings of life, love, and peace that 00:01:29.530 --> 00:01:33.090 you give us. Be with us now as we reflect together 00:01:33.090 --> 00:01:36.530 with Sister Simone on your call to follow the 00:01:36.530 --> 00:01:40.269 nonviolent Jesus and to work for justice and 00:01:40.269 --> 00:01:44.069 disarmament and creation. and to welcome your 00:01:44.069 --> 00:01:47.170 reign of peace and nonviolence. Bless us, inspire 00:01:47.170 --> 00:01:50.530 us, disarm us, strengthen us, and send us out 00:01:50.530 --> 00:01:53.689 to do your will, to do our part in helping to 00:01:53.689 --> 00:01:57.950 end poverty, injustice, racism, greed, war, genocide, 00:01:58.390 --> 00:02:01.489 fascism, nuclear weapons, and the destruction 00:02:01.489 --> 00:02:05.310 of the beautiful creation, that we might be your 00:02:05.310 --> 00:02:08.610 holy beatitude people. your holy peacemakers, 00:02:08.669 --> 00:02:12.250 and truly welcome your reign of universal love, 00:02:12.389 --> 00:02:16.349 nonviolence, and peace on earth. We ask in Jesus' 00:02:16.509 --> 00:02:19.469 name. Amen. So it's a pleasure to welcome back 00:02:19.469 --> 00:02:22.229 my friend Sister Simone Campbell, one of the 00:02:22.229 --> 00:02:25.639 strongest voices and leading organizers. for 00:02:25.639 --> 00:02:28.460 social and economic justice in the United States. 00:02:28.759 --> 00:02:32.099 So this is part two of our two -part conversation. 00:02:32.580 --> 00:02:34.819 If you weren't able to listen to the first part, 00:02:34.939 --> 00:02:38.639 I invite you to go back and listen to that first, 00:02:38.860 --> 00:02:43.849 which was terrific, posted last week. We're just 00:02:43.849 --> 00:02:45.909 going to take up from where we left off, but 00:02:45.909 --> 00:02:48.710 just a brief introduction again. Sister Simone 00:02:48.710 --> 00:02:50.849 Campbell is a Roman Catholic sister of social 00:02:50.849 --> 00:02:53.669 service, a religious leader, attorney, author, 00:02:53.889 --> 00:02:57.150 and recipient of the 2022 Presidential Medal 00:02:57.150 --> 00:03:01.259 of Freedom. She worked for 17 years as executive 00:03:01.259 --> 00:03:04.319 director of NETWORK, the National Catholic Lobby 00:03:04.319 --> 00:03:08.300 for Social Justice, and was leader of Nuns on 00:03:08.300 --> 00:03:11.900 the Bus. And her policy work was critical in 00:03:11.900 --> 00:03:15.500 the passing of the Affordable Care Act. Before 00:03:15.500 --> 00:03:17.780 that, she worked for 18 years at the Oakland 00:03:17.780 --> 00:03:22.800 Community Law Center, which she founded. the 00:03:22.800 --> 00:03:25.780 award -winning author of two great books, None 00:03:25.780 --> 00:03:29.580 on the Bus and Hunger for Hope. So Sister Simone 00:03:29.580 --> 00:03:31.960 Campbell, welcome back to the Nonviolent Jesus 00:03:31.960 --> 00:03:35.819 podcast. Great to be with you. So we're going 00:03:35.819 --> 00:03:38.240 to take up where we left off, and I was so moved 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:42.460 by your reflections the last time about all your 00:03:42.460 --> 00:03:46.419 lifelong advocacy, your work as a lawyer on behalf 00:03:46.419 --> 00:03:49.520 of the working poor, and how that led you to 00:03:49.520 --> 00:03:53.180 network and then to really to... to publicly 00:03:53.180 --> 00:03:57.020 engage everybody on all sides in the government 00:03:57.020 --> 00:04:00.500 to help achieve the Affordable Care Act. And 00:04:00.500 --> 00:04:03.180 really then through Nuns on the Bus and so many 00:04:03.180 --> 00:04:07.060 other projects and your books to become a public 00:04:07.060 --> 00:04:10.520 figure for justice, which is what we need. And 00:04:10.520 --> 00:04:13.639 then I got your book, Simone, Hunger for Hope. 00:04:13.849 --> 00:04:16.250 Prophetic Communities, Contemplation, and the 00:04:16.250 --> 00:04:19.310 Common Good, published by Orbis, which I hope 00:04:19.310 --> 00:04:21.970 everyone will get. And it walks through some 00:04:21.970 --> 00:04:26.230 of the basic themes, as I see it, Simone, that 00:04:26.230 --> 00:04:29.290 have motivated you and have supported you in 00:04:29.290 --> 00:04:33.230 this amazing work you've done. When we last talked 00:04:33.230 --> 00:04:35.329 and I was saying, well, how do we do this? How 00:04:35.329 --> 00:04:38.949 do we stand up publicly and practice nonviolence 00:04:38.949 --> 00:04:43.060 and be nonviolent? But even... enter into nonviolent 00:04:43.060 --> 00:04:45.519 conflict resolution with people who oppose us, 00:04:45.660 --> 00:04:50.620 you immediately started speaking about your contemplative 00:04:50.620 --> 00:04:53.259 practice. And that's what you begin the book 00:04:53.259 --> 00:04:56.439 with, which I was very moved by. So tell us more 00:04:56.439 --> 00:04:59.660 about that and how that connects to all work 00:04:59.660 --> 00:05:04.959 for justice and peace. And so, I mean, what do 00:05:04.959 --> 00:05:06.800 you do? What is your contemplative practice? 00:05:07.139 --> 00:05:09.600 What do you encourage people to do? And then 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:13.250 after that, Or during this, I want to also hear 00:05:13.250 --> 00:05:16.250 about how you have a Zen practice, which I also 00:05:16.250 --> 00:05:19.850 have. And I learned from Merton, which has made 00:05:19.850 --> 00:05:24.189 a huge difference in all this. Well, okay. So 00:05:24.189 --> 00:05:30.149 my practice is every morning, well, I take weekends 00:05:30.149 --> 00:05:34.149 off. Monday through Friday, I have a half hour 00:05:34.149 --> 00:05:38.629 of basically Zen sitting, which is being quiet, 00:05:38.730 --> 00:05:43.850 emptying. myself, opening myself. I think of 00:05:43.850 --> 00:05:47.290 it as deep listening, as being quiet so that 00:05:47.290 --> 00:05:55.670 other things can bubble up. And then I do a half 00:05:55.670 --> 00:05:59.389 hour of some reading. That's my morning tradition. 00:05:59.649 --> 00:06:06.220 But during the day, then if I'm in a a situation 00:06:06.220 --> 00:06:10.139 or engaged with somebody, I try to bring the 00:06:10.139 --> 00:06:16.879 same sense of quiet, listening, attentiveness 00:06:16.879 --> 00:06:21.180 to whoever I'm with as I do to the divine in 00:06:21.180 --> 00:06:25.720 the morning. And it's the tradition of listening 00:06:25.720 --> 00:06:31.259 that I find so important and so imperative if 00:06:31.259 --> 00:06:36.110 we're going to be able to... create collaborations, 00:06:36.509 --> 00:06:39.610 coalitions, if we are going to create change, 00:06:39.769 --> 00:06:44.470 because what's required is understanding what 00:06:44.470 --> 00:06:51.069 is happening in the other person as much as what's 00:06:51.069 --> 00:06:55.410 happening in me. Does that make sense? It does, 00:06:55.550 --> 00:06:57.709 and it's critically important. So let me ask 00:06:57.709 --> 00:07:01.959 you, in terms of all the people listening, What 00:07:01.959 --> 00:07:05.420 concrete suggestions you have to encourage people 00:07:05.420 --> 00:07:07.740 in this time when very few people seem to be 00:07:07.740 --> 00:07:11.300 listening to other people about how to do it. 00:07:11.339 --> 00:07:12.939 Because what was so important to me was that, 00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:16.980 okay, I've got a personal, private, contemplative 00:07:16.980 --> 00:07:20.199 Zen practice of sitting and deep listening every 00:07:20.199 --> 00:07:23.220 morning. But then you said, and then I live out 00:07:23.220 --> 00:07:26.560 my day in that. And I continue, in a sense, to 00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:31.579 the practice of deep listening. What advice do 00:07:31.579 --> 00:07:33.560 you have for others about how they can do that 00:07:33.560 --> 00:07:39.720 in their day to day? Just try it. Be at it. But 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:42.079 you know what it what it takes, John, for me 00:07:42.079 --> 00:07:48.939 is to I have to be in a I have to feel secure 00:07:48.939 --> 00:07:53.220 in myself to be willing to open myself up to 00:07:53.220 --> 00:07:56.779 other points of view. And if I'm having these 00:07:56.779 --> 00:07:59.730 days. I get riled about a whole bunch of stuff. 00:07:59.810 --> 00:08:03.149 If I'm riled, I can't do this. So I have to find 00:08:03.149 --> 00:08:08.930 a way to kind of like a lightning rod to get 00:08:08.930 --> 00:08:15.009 that energy off and gone and then be curious 00:08:15.009 --> 00:08:22.209 about another. And it's that curiosity. We talked 00:08:22.209 --> 00:08:24.750 really briefly about nuns on the bus, but, you 00:08:24.750 --> 00:08:30.199 know. We did, what, seven tours. And the bus 00:08:30.199 --> 00:08:36.179 itself became literally a vehicle of curiosity. 00:08:36.759 --> 00:08:40.259 Because our goal was to bring a message, yeah, 00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:42.600 but our goal was to learn from the people we 00:08:42.600 --> 00:08:46.179 met along the road. And if we think of ourselves 00:08:46.179 --> 00:08:52.049 as learners, as opposed to... controllers or 00:08:52.049 --> 00:08:55.330 dominators or any of this other stuff it's way 00:08:55.330 --> 00:08:59.830 easier to have curiosity for the other because 00:08:59.830 --> 00:09:03.330 that's my job is to be curious to learn and then 00:09:03.330 --> 00:09:06.490 to share and see for me holy curiosity goes along 00:09:06.490 --> 00:09:09.350 with sacred gossip where i share what i've heard 00:09:09.350 --> 00:09:14.950 so that the combination allows for a weaving 00:09:14.950 --> 00:09:19.600 together that's very different than usual political 00:09:19.600 --> 00:09:23.580 discourse. Wow, that's beautiful. Thank you. 00:09:24.379 --> 00:09:28.990 I always say wow, I'm trying not to. I'm very 00:09:28.990 --> 00:09:31.090 moved. You know, there was a funny story you 00:09:31.090 --> 00:09:32.990 told about a friend of ours who was interviewing 00:09:32.990 --> 00:09:36.190 you in your book. You tell the story. What's 00:09:36.190 --> 00:09:42.529 your favorite story of Jesus? I don't have any. 00:09:42.870 --> 00:09:47.470 Who are you asking about? And you said, well, 00:09:47.549 --> 00:09:50.549 I like the Holy Spirit. And that was just beautiful 00:09:50.549 --> 00:09:52.730 because that's the charism of your order. And 00:09:52.730 --> 00:09:55.990 you talk about Pentecost and you've already talked. 00:09:56.429 --> 00:09:59.970 in your journey about Pentecostal moments. And 00:09:59.970 --> 00:10:05.129 isn't that the heart of the Christian story that 00:10:05.129 --> 00:10:07.769 we carry on in the spirit of the nonviolent Jesus? 00:10:08.629 --> 00:10:13.330 Tell me about that. And living, you know, these 00:10:13.330 --> 00:10:16.230 Pentecostal moments and living according to the 00:10:16.230 --> 00:10:18.789 Holy Spirit, you know, the image is so powerful. 00:10:18.870 --> 00:10:22.870 They're set on fire, and then they're set out, 00:10:22.909 --> 00:10:27.409 and they have to speak out publicly. about Jesus 00:10:27.409 --> 00:10:30.429 and the gospel, which means justice and discernment. 00:10:30.809 --> 00:10:33.950 So tell me about that connection. Tell us about 00:10:33.950 --> 00:10:37.769 Pentecost today. Oh my gosh. Well, okay. So my 00:10:37.769 --> 00:10:40.710 community is, we're dedicated to the Holy Spirit. 00:10:40.830 --> 00:10:43.049 So the medal we wear is the Holy Spirit, says 00:10:43.049 --> 00:10:46.009 come Holy Spirit. And our big feast is Pentecost. 00:10:46.929 --> 00:10:52.720 But what I have learned in... living this life 00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:56.940 for so long is that Pentecost really is about 00:10:56.940 --> 00:11:05.500 the flourishing of the Spirit in places that 00:11:05.500 --> 00:11:09.480 are challenging or where I'm striving to understand 00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:14.460 or I'm, you know, could be a little tough. Or 00:11:14.460 --> 00:11:16.840 potential conflict. Pentecost is often about 00:11:16.840 --> 00:11:19.299 conflict. You know, and remember the story of 00:11:19.299 --> 00:11:22.139 Pentecost is that the apostles are all afraid. 00:11:22.220 --> 00:11:23.620 They're in the upper room. They don't know what 00:11:23.620 --> 00:11:26.399 to do. And the spirit comes on. And then Peter 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:28.340 and the apostles get up on the roof and they 00:11:28.340 --> 00:11:31.059 start preaching to people and people understand 00:11:31.059 --> 00:11:34.639 them in their own language. Now, the thing is, 00:11:34.639 --> 00:11:37.080 is the apostles didn't learn other languages. 00:11:37.860 --> 00:11:41.000 So for me, what that says is I don't need to 00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:44.379 know your language. But I need to be able to 00:11:44.379 --> 00:11:47.240 listen well enough and communicate well enough 00:11:47.240 --> 00:11:51.360 that what I say might touch you. It's my language 00:11:51.360 --> 00:11:55.720 to your language. And that's the important thing. 00:11:56.039 --> 00:12:03.100 And the Pentecost is about the fire of the spirit. 00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:05.259 It's that you can't contain it. You can't just 00:12:05.259 --> 00:12:08.759 stay in the upper room. You got to move on. You 00:12:08.759 --> 00:12:10.759 got to be engaged. You have to be a part of it. 00:12:11.450 --> 00:12:15.009 Though I was giving a retreat. I love being fire. 00:12:15.230 --> 00:12:18.169 I love being fire. For me, that spiritual experience 00:12:18.169 --> 00:12:23.649 of being fire is just so, so exciting, so seductive. 00:12:23.690 --> 00:12:26.830 Anyway, so I was giving a retreat to a bunch 00:12:26.830 --> 00:12:29.070 of sisters. I had never done an eight -day retreat 00:12:29.070 --> 00:12:33.950 before. I did this summer, and at one point I 00:12:33.950 --> 00:12:37.559 said to the group, oh, don't you just want to 00:12:37.559 --> 00:12:43.480 be fire? And this one sister said, oh, absolutely 00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:47.980 not. It just made me laugh. I thought, each of 00:12:47.980 --> 00:12:52.259 us has her own special calling. They're like, 00:12:52.340 --> 00:12:54.759 can we get another retreat leader? You know, 00:12:54.879 --> 00:12:58.600 you're reminding me of my friend and teacher, 00:12:58.679 --> 00:13:02.000 Daniel Berrigan, who on a bad day once when the 00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:05.580 bishops voted unanimously to support the bombing 00:13:05.580 --> 00:13:08.139 of Afghanistan shortly after September 11th, 00:13:08.139 --> 00:13:11.480 he said, they're all like firemen at Pentecost 00:13:11.480 --> 00:13:15.279 putting out the fire of the Holy Spirit. I never 00:13:15.279 --> 00:13:18.139 forgot that because who would even think of that? 00:13:19.759 --> 00:13:23.759 Yeah. We want to put out the fires of the Holy 00:13:23.759 --> 00:13:26.759 Spirit, whereas you and I, I hope, are trying 00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:30.600 to help keep the fire going. Now, this is a related 00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:32.960 question, and you brought this up in the book, 00:13:33.059 --> 00:13:35.139 so I'm putting it on your scene. It's my fault. 00:13:35.299 --> 00:13:40.120 Okay. Prophetic imagination. So I want you to 00:13:40.120 --> 00:13:42.659 talk about that. It's a very important phrase 00:13:42.659 --> 00:13:47.080 for me and for my teacher, Daniel Berrigan, and 00:13:47.080 --> 00:13:50.480 it's basically, you know, With the contemplative 00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:55.820 Zen practice and the Holy Spirit, you see the 00:13:55.820 --> 00:13:58.299 world differently. You see through the eyes of 00:13:58.299 --> 00:14:01.240 Jesus. And then you have to prophetically, well, 00:14:01.279 --> 00:14:03.580 that just means speaking out what you're hearing 00:14:03.580 --> 00:14:06.600 in your contemplative practice. So we're really 00:14:06.600 --> 00:14:10.559 talking public speaking for justice and discernment. 00:14:11.019 --> 00:14:14.059 And I just want to ask you, I'm just throwing 00:14:14.059 --> 00:14:16.440 all these words and images out to you. You can 00:14:16.440 --> 00:14:19.080 take them any way you want. But I think that's 00:14:19.080 --> 00:14:21.980 a very big part of the work for justice and peace. 00:14:22.600 --> 00:14:25.639 You know, growing up when I did as a young Jesuit 00:14:25.639 --> 00:14:28.340 with the Barragans, I just thought, well, this 00:14:28.340 --> 00:14:32.019 is a requirement of discipleship today, of living 00:14:32.019 --> 00:14:34.580 out Pentecost. You have to go out publicly. I 00:14:34.580 --> 00:14:37.820 don't want to speak. And I've spoken to the whole 00:14:37.820 --> 00:14:42.039 world for the last 45 years. But I still don't 00:14:42.039 --> 00:14:44.379 like it. And you know that quote that, what's 00:14:44.379 --> 00:14:46.899 the greatest fear? This has been studied by Gallup. 00:14:47.629 --> 00:14:49.990 Greatest fear of all the people in the United 00:14:49.990 --> 00:14:56.429 States is public speaking. Death is second. Do 00:14:56.429 --> 00:14:58.330 you know that's the very truth? People don't 00:14:58.330 --> 00:15:01.990 know the secret. Tell me all about that. What 00:15:01.990 --> 00:15:06.889 is the secret? For me, okay, I do a fair amount 00:15:06.889 --> 00:15:12.490 of public speaking. But before, okay, I'm prepared. 00:15:12.690 --> 00:15:15.070 I'll have an outline. I'll do something. But 00:15:15.070 --> 00:15:18.990 before. It'll just be a prayer, come Holy Spirit. 00:15:19.289 --> 00:15:22.509 And my prayer is not that I say the right thing, 00:15:22.610 --> 00:15:28.409 but may they hear what they need. And that frees 00:15:28.409 --> 00:15:32.429 me then to know that the Spirit will use words 00:15:32.429 --> 00:15:35.370 for what people need. I've had people come up 00:15:35.370 --> 00:15:38.549 to me after a talk I've given and say I said 00:15:38.549 --> 00:15:40.769 something. I didn't say that, but that was all 00:15:40.769 --> 00:15:44.230 right. That's what they got. And I think it's 00:15:44.230 --> 00:15:49.080 the... We become, it's too easy in speaking, 00:15:49.279 --> 00:15:51.379 public speaking, to become focused on ourselves 00:15:51.379 --> 00:15:54.100 as opposed to the needs of the people that you're 00:15:54.100 --> 00:15:57.399 speaking to. May they hear what they need. That's 00:15:57.399 --> 00:16:00.519 all my prayer is. And if I'm the vehicle of it, 00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:03.500 great. They get some other ideas, even better. 00:16:03.779 --> 00:16:07.399 But to be, trust that the Spirit will work with 00:16:07.399 --> 00:16:12.029 what's given. Oh, that's so beautiful because, 00:16:12.090 --> 00:16:14.570 of course, it became a prayer, and then it's 00:16:14.570 --> 00:16:18.389 not about you, it's about God. I remember my 00:16:18.389 --> 00:16:20.330 friend, you probably know her well too, Sister 00:16:20.330 --> 00:16:23.210 Joan Chittister, telling me not too long ago 00:16:23.210 --> 00:16:26.710 that her entire life, for all the millions of 00:16:26.710 --> 00:16:29.850 people she's spoken to, the moment she's walking 00:16:29.850 --> 00:16:31.809 from the edge of the stage to the microphone. 00:16:32.679 --> 00:16:35.120 She's praying, okay, it's you. It's all about 00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:37.820 you. Whatever you want to say, you say through 00:16:37.820 --> 00:16:40.259 me. I don't care. It's not about me. I'm too 00:16:40.259 --> 00:16:43.120 old. I've been there, done that. And it's taken 00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:45.559 me a long time to learn that, you know, as a 00:16:45.559 --> 00:16:48.919 Jesuit race, you know, to get over the ego and 00:16:48.919 --> 00:16:51.740 the self and to take credit. That's such baloney. 00:16:52.620 --> 00:16:56.059 So tell me then about this beautiful phrase of 00:16:56.059 --> 00:16:58.299 Walter Brueggemann, which you use in Hunger for 00:16:58.299 --> 00:17:00.740 Hope, the prophetic imagination. I know I stole 00:17:00.740 --> 00:17:03.019 it from him. You stole it. I'm calling you out 00:17:03.019 --> 00:17:04.960 on that. I'm grateful. I'm grateful that you 00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:07.579 are, because I have to properly footnote, I am 00:17:07.579 --> 00:17:12.539 a lawyer, you know. Okay, so his book, Prophetic 00:17:12.539 --> 00:17:16.940 Imagination, was very formative in shaping my 00:17:16.940 --> 00:17:21.740 understanding of Scripture. And so he's got one... 00:17:22.629 --> 00:17:27.109 little paragraph in the intro to the second edition, 00:17:27.410 --> 00:17:30.589 25 years after it was first published, it was 00:17:30.589 --> 00:17:34.950 published again. And unbeknownst to myself, I 00:17:34.950 --> 00:17:38.349 bought the second version and then went to put, 00:17:38.390 --> 00:17:40.329 after I read it, I was so excited. It was fabulous. 00:17:40.509 --> 00:17:42.670 Went to put it on the shelf. I did have his first 00:17:42.670 --> 00:17:45.589 edition too. And I totally forgotten 25 years 00:17:45.589 --> 00:17:50.269 earlier. But anyway, what he says is that the 00:17:50.269 --> 00:17:53.720 community, nurture is a prophetic imagination 00:17:53.720 --> 00:18:01.059 and that that community biblically has five characteristics 00:18:01.059 --> 00:18:05.759 and the first is a long and available memory 00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:08.539 which is one of the things we struggle with in 00:18:08.539 --> 00:18:10.619 our country is that we don't have a long and 00:18:10.619 --> 00:18:13.720 available memory people forget like i forgot 00:18:14.109 --> 00:18:16.769 that I had his book 25 years earlier. But that's 00:18:16.769 --> 00:18:19.049 one thing, that we forget our history. We forget 00:18:19.049 --> 00:18:21.769 what we struggled through. We forget, or we try 00:18:21.769 --> 00:18:25.210 to erase it, what's happening with the African 00:18:25.210 --> 00:18:28.670 -American Museum now and erasing the story of 00:18:28.670 --> 00:18:32.369 our sinful past in slavery. So it's a long and 00:18:32.369 --> 00:18:35.549 available memory. Touching the pain of the world 00:18:35.549 --> 00:18:39.769 is real. And what he says is that our temptation 00:18:39.769 --> 00:18:43.210 is to fix the pain of the world. And that's not 00:18:43.210 --> 00:18:45.390 what we're called to, that if we really want 00:18:45.390 --> 00:18:48.109 to have a prophetic imagination, we have to touch 00:18:48.109 --> 00:18:51.789 the reality of the pain. We have to have an active 00:18:51.789 --> 00:18:55.170 experience of hope. Not like, oh, yeah, I had 00:18:55.170 --> 00:18:57.609 hope once. You know, when I took first vows, 00:18:57.609 --> 00:19:00.690 I was very hopeful. No, hope has to continue. 00:19:00.789 --> 00:19:03.710 And hope is the communal virtue. That's what 00:19:03.710 --> 00:19:06.329 I'm writing about. So you've got to be in connection 00:19:06.329 --> 00:19:09.779 community. The fourth is to have effective, he 00:19:09.779 --> 00:19:13.319 says, is effective discourse across generations. 00:19:13.640 --> 00:19:18.220 And I add, and cultures. Because if you don't 00:19:18.220 --> 00:19:20.859 talk across generations, we're not going to have 00:19:20.859 --> 00:19:23.200 imagination. We're not going to be able to see 00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:26.220 in new ways. We're not going to understand the 00:19:26.220 --> 00:19:29.400 weaving of our society. And then the last, which 00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:34.200 is really distressing because it's hard, is his 00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:37.079 fifth characteristic of a community that nurtures. 00:19:37.529 --> 00:19:41.430 A prophetic imagination is the capacity to sustain 00:19:41.430 --> 00:19:45.710 long -term tension with the dominant culture. 00:19:46.569 --> 00:19:52.069 Isn't that annoying? But it is that capacity 00:19:52.069 --> 00:19:57.089 because in the long -term tension is the potential 00:19:57.089 --> 00:20:01.589 for growth inside an imagination. Now, I must 00:20:01.589 --> 00:20:05.710 confess, it's easier for me to do that with our 00:20:05.710 --> 00:20:09.579 civil society. Than it is for me to do with the 00:20:09.579 --> 00:20:12.500 church. And it's equally true in the church. 00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:16.559 Thank you so much, Simone. That's so powerful. 00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:20.819 We could talk all day about that some more and 00:20:20.819 --> 00:20:27.940 his themes and just I hope everyone will mull 00:20:27.940 --> 00:20:31.609 over what Simone has said about. How can we all 00:20:31.609 --> 00:20:36.349 reclaim the prophetic imagination? Exactly. It's 00:20:36.349 --> 00:20:39.150 all of ours. It's all of ours. All of ours. That's 00:20:39.150 --> 00:20:42.609 the key, I think, thing Jesus wants us to do. 00:20:42.849 --> 00:20:44.970 It's even in the Sermon on the Mount. Then you 00:20:44.970 --> 00:20:48.029 get to be like the prophets of old. If you live 00:20:48.029 --> 00:20:50.410 the Beatitudes, then you get to do this, rejoice 00:20:50.410 --> 00:20:55.730 and be glad. And Dan talked a lot about that. 00:20:55.769 --> 00:20:58.490 Now we get to be like Dorothy Day and Dr. King. 00:20:59.390 --> 00:21:02.829 But you were focusing on how all of this flows 00:21:02.829 --> 00:21:07.009 from community. Now, you know, when I was young 00:21:07.009 --> 00:21:10.230 and about in the 80s, we were all forming small 00:21:10.230 --> 00:21:13.329 group communities to resist Central America, 00:21:13.670 --> 00:21:17.930 U .S. war making and nukes and poverty. There 00:21:17.930 --> 00:21:21.289 were affinity groups, even in non -church or 00:21:21.289 --> 00:21:24.549 non -religious activists. It seems to me that 00:21:24.549 --> 00:21:27.509 a lot of that is gone, but we need it more than 00:21:27.509 --> 00:21:30.190 ever today. And that's what our sisters and brothers 00:21:30.190 --> 00:21:32.430 in Latin America and Africa learned, the base 00:21:32.430 --> 00:21:35.529 community movement. So I want you to talk about 00:21:35.529 --> 00:21:39.049 community and how we might, how people, if they 00:21:39.049 --> 00:21:42.849 don't have it, could form it around them as a 00:21:42.849 --> 00:21:46.130 way to go forward and live out this prophetic 00:21:46.130 --> 00:21:49.210 imagination, be advocates for justice. So, for 00:21:49.210 --> 00:21:55.000 example. You know, just call like -minded friends 00:21:55.000 --> 00:21:58.579 together or start a Pucks Christy group or the 00:21:58.579 --> 00:22:01.400 importance of community in your life. Dan Berrigan, 00:22:01.460 --> 00:22:05.119 you know, I watched him for 35 years. He actually 00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:07.420 had dozens of communities. He had communities 00:22:07.420 --> 00:22:09.680 within communities within communities. He even 00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:12.200 had a small peace group that met every other 00:22:12.200 --> 00:22:15.380 Tuesday night for the last 35 years of his life. 00:22:15.420 --> 00:22:17.599 And he never missed a meeting. There were six 00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:21.769 of us there. And that's what sustained him. But 00:22:21.769 --> 00:22:25.470 they had the Jesuit community. Anyway, tell us 00:22:25.470 --> 00:22:27.710 your thoughts on community, which you write about 00:22:27.710 --> 00:22:32.150 beautifully in the book. Well, I think community 00:22:32.150 --> 00:22:37.930 is at the heart of hope. I mean, you can't have 00:22:37.930 --> 00:22:41.549 hope if you don't have community, I think. And 00:22:41.549 --> 00:22:50.109 that a lot of the hardship that people are... 00:22:50.269 --> 00:22:53.390 laboring through now is for lack of community. 00:22:53.910 --> 00:22:57.930 I mean, I don't want to knock podcasts. This 00:22:57.930 --> 00:23:02.450 is great. But we have podcasts. You can hear 00:23:02.450 --> 00:23:04.450 anything now. You can see it on YouTube. You 00:23:04.450 --> 00:23:07.549 can redo it. I can check my phone. I just got 00:23:07.549 --> 00:23:10.430 an email from a friend. Oh, that's great. But 00:23:10.430 --> 00:23:14.410 that's not community. Community is when you're 00:23:14.410 --> 00:23:17.690 in relationship enough that you rub each other 00:23:17.690 --> 00:23:21.869 a little bit so that some of my barnacles fall 00:23:21.869 --> 00:23:25.569 off and maybe some of yours do too. And then 00:23:25.569 --> 00:23:30.809 we're able to have fresh, inside fresh capacity 00:23:30.809 --> 00:23:35.809 to see the world in some different ways. And 00:23:35.809 --> 00:23:37.970 I guess one of the things that was always so 00:23:37.970 --> 00:23:40.210 important for me, wherever I have been doing 00:23:40.210 --> 00:23:43.410 ministry, is that we create a small community 00:23:43.410 --> 00:23:48.210 in that context. For instance, at Network or 00:23:48.210 --> 00:23:50.940 at the Law Center, We would eat lunch together, 00:23:51.160 --> 00:23:55.819 whoever was around. But it wasn't because it 00:23:55.819 --> 00:23:58.859 was a rule. It was because of forming community, 00:23:59.119 --> 00:24:02.880 being connected, caring beyond just the task, 00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:08.299 knowing you well enough and you're knowing me 00:24:08.299 --> 00:24:12.359 well enough that we could meet in some meaningful 00:24:12.359 --> 00:24:15.980 fashion. That's at the heart of what's missing, 00:24:16.019 --> 00:24:19.480 I think, right now. It's individualism and isolation. 00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:24.519 I don't want to just nix this AI thing, but AI 00:24:24.519 --> 00:24:28.880 is going to have to find community somehow. Well, 00:24:28.900 --> 00:24:32.680 that's beautiful and very powerful. Thank you, 00:24:32.700 --> 00:24:38.579 and I hope we can all, as Simone says, continue 00:24:38.579 --> 00:24:41.220 to build community. You've also used the word 00:24:41.220 --> 00:24:43.680 hope a lot, and that's the name of your book, 00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:47.940 Hunger for Hope. I was very moved, too, when 00:24:47.940 --> 00:24:50.779 you talked about touching the pain and that, 00:24:50.859 --> 00:24:53.079 you know, I certainly felt on fire with hope 00:24:53.079 --> 00:24:56.380 as a young kid when I was starting my journey. 00:24:56.500 --> 00:24:59.460 And it's very different now. I was thinking, 00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:01.920 too, so I want to ask you about hope. I want 00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:03.680 you to talk about that and experiencing that 00:25:03.680 --> 00:25:06.720 and cultivating it. And I'm reflecting with you 00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:08.880 to give you a moment here before you get into 00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:14.000 it. I was thinking, too, as you spoke about my 00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:17.460 take on the story of. The doubting Thomas at 00:25:17.460 --> 00:25:19.279 the end of the Gospel of John, and we could talk 00:25:19.279 --> 00:25:25.279 a lot about that, but he doesn't believe until 00:25:25.279 --> 00:25:32.700 he touches the wounds. And some of us really 00:25:32.700 --> 00:25:35.400 need to touch the wounds of the poor and the 00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:38.819 pain of the suffering people on the planet before 00:25:38.819 --> 00:25:43.230 we can be reignited in hope. And be set on fire 00:25:43.230 --> 00:25:45.450 again and really believe and say, my Lord and 00:25:45.450 --> 00:25:48.130 my God, which means he's going to get killed 00:25:48.130 --> 00:25:51.410 because Diocletian had said only he's to be allowed 00:25:51.410 --> 00:25:55.109 to be called my Lord and my God. Then, Simone, 00:25:55.190 --> 00:25:57.670 I found this incredible statement from Martin 00:25:57.670 --> 00:25:59.710 Luther King. Forgive me, I tell everybody about 00:25:59.710 --> 00:26:03.589 this, so you're stuck with me. He never talked 00:26:03.589 --> 00:26:06.009 about hope. Did you ever notice that about Martin? 00:26:06.089 --> 00:26:09.130 He never. And I always say that's because everything 00:26:09.130 --> 00:26:13.460 he did worked out. You know, and he was there 00:26:13.460 --> 00:26:15.799 was a real burden. He couldn't figure it out. 00:26:15.799 --> 00:26:18.220 Like, oh, my God, people expect me to walk on 00:26:18.220 --> 00:26:21.480 water. And then he spoke out against the Vietnam 00:26:21.480 --> 00:26:24.359 War. And then he says, we're bringing all the 00:26:24.359 --> 00:26:27.079 poor to D .C. to demand justice. And his days 00:26:27.079 --> 00:26:31.059 were numbered and he knew it. And the week. Before 00:26:31.059 --> 00:26:34.019 he was killed, he started talking about hope 00:26:34.019 --> 00:26:36.359 for the first time in his life. And in Memphis, 00:26:36.519 --> 00:26:39.140 one of the things he said was, tonight I'm announcing 00:26:39.140 --> 00:26:43.220 my definition of hope, which is very different 00:26:43.220 --> 00:26:44.880 than anything I'd ever heard of. He called it 00:26:44.880 --> 00:26:48.700 the final refusal to give up. I'm just not going 00:26:48.700 --> 00:26:50.980 away, folks. You're going to have to kill me. 00:26:51.079 --> 00:26:54.740 And I find that very powerful. So tell me about 00:26:54.740 --> 00:26:58.160 living in hope and maintaining hope and experiencing 00:26:58.160 --> 00:27:04.440 hope. And what that all means for us today and 00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:07.980 this kind of hopeless moment we're facing. Or 00:27:07.980 --> 00:27:10.259 maybe it's not hopeless. Maybe it's a new opportunity. 00:27:10.299 --> 00:27:14.819 We don't know. Yeah, we don't know. And it can 00:27:14.819 --> 00:27:21.240 be hopeless if we don't respond. But for me, 00:27:21.259 --> 00:27:24.940 it really is critically connected to touching 00:27:24.940 --> 00:27:31.140 the pain of the world as real. Let me give you 00:27:31.140 --> 00:27:35.299 a story. On the first bus trip in Cincinnati, 00:27:35.660 --> 00:27:40.180 these two women, Jeannie and Lynn, came and they're 00:27:40.180 --> 00:27:45.839 a couple and they had just been to Jeannie's 00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:49.799 sister's funeral. Jeannie's sister, Margaret, 00:27:50.059 --> 00:27:53.440 died because she didn't have health care. This 00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:56.720 was before the ACA had been fully implemented. 00:27:57.680 --> 00:28:00.680 She'd lost her job in the recession. When she 00:28:00.680 --> 00:28:03.740 lost her job, she lost her health care. By the 00:28:03.740 --> 00:28:06.839 time she was literally carried into the emergency 00:28:06.839 --> 00:28:10.299 room, she was terminally ill with colon cancer. 00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:16.980 And to touch that reality, and they brought me, 00:28:17.140 --> 00:28:21.759 Jeannie and Lynn brought me her picture. Touching 00:28:21.759 --> 00:28:28.569 that picture. allows me to touch the pain that 00:28:28.569 --> 00:28:35.769 Margaret lived through and renews my hope, my 00:28:35.769 --> 00:28:39.430 spirit, that no more Margaret should die for 00:28:39.430 --> 00:28:44.470 lack of health care. But it's not a theory. It's 00:28:44.470 --> 00:28:47.130 not a removed thing. It's not something. It's 00:28:47.130 --> 00:28:52.069 Margaret. Margaret fuels my passion that we as 00:28:52.069 --> 00:28:55.470 a nation take care of all of our people. The 00:28:55.470 --> 00:28:57.869 richest nation on earth? I think we can do it. 00:28:58.809 --> 00:29:04.750 But see the connection between being in a relationship 00:29:04.750 --> 00:29:08.309 with Jeannie and Lynn, having that connectedness, 00:29:08.309 --> 00:29:10.829 and then being able to touch the pain of the 00:29:10.829 --> 00:29:15.150 world. That just sets fire. It demands a response. 00:29:15.789 --> 00:29:18.670 I can't sit still. That's hope. That's living 00:29:18.670 --> 00:29:22.230 in hope. And then living out that fire, which 00:29:22.230 --> 00:29:25.269 is the Pentecost again. Simone, that's so helpful. 00:29:25.349 --> 00:29:29.589 Thank you. I have two big ones to ask you, but 00:29:29.589 --> 00:29:32.009 I still have a hundred other questions for you. 00:29:32.049 --> 00:29:33.450 So we're going to have to do this some other 00:29:33.450 --> 00:29:37.690 day. Now, look, forgive me for if this is crossing 00:29:37.690 --> 00:29:42.069 a boundary, but you wrote an amazing essay in 00:29:42.069 --> 00:29:45.089 America magazine about being on the Colbert show. 00:29:45.230 --> 00:29:47.210 And I want to ask you about that because I've 00:29:47.210 --> 00:29:52.009 never seen anybody talk about such an experience. 00:29:52.700 --> 00:29:55.579 We're really talking here about the ego. And 00:29:55.579 --> 00:29:58.960 I think it's very helpful for all of us. And 00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:01.019 it was really, to me, an invitation and humility. 00:30:01.519 --> 00:30:04.880 I don't remember when it came out or what you 00:30:04.880 --> 00:30:07.500 remember of it, but I only just read it the other 00:30:07.500 --> 00:30:10.440 day. And basically you're going, hey, friends, 00:30:10.519 --> 00:30:12.579 I was on the Colbert show. You want to know what 00:30:12.579 --> 00:30:17.099 that was like? And so, of course, you know, Simone, 00:30:17.279 --> 00:30:21.059 full disclosure. I'm asking this personally because 00:30:21.059 --> 00:30:25.339 it's stuff I struggle with, my big ego. And letting 00:30:25.339 --> 00:30:27.660 go of the self and self -will and doing only 00:30:27.660 --> 00:30:30.039 God's will and finally learning humility before 00:30:30.039 --> 00:30:32.799 God, especially if we want to work for God or 00:30:32.799 --> 00:30:36.099 be filled with the Spirit. And you write about 00:30:36.099 --> 00:30:40.160 the whole journey of having to process having 00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:42.380 been on The Colbert Show. Wait a second. Is this 00:30:42.380 --> 00:30:45.519 my ego run amok getting out of control when I'm 00:30:45.519 --> 00:30:48.230 supposed to be advocating for the people? Like 00:30:48.230 --> 00:30:50.349 Margaret, you just spoke about, who are suffering 00:30:50.349 --> 00:30:52.710 and dying because of our policies. And you get 00:30:52.710 --> 00:30:56.049 mixed up. And we all get mixed up. And you kind 00:30:56.049 --> 00:30:57.950 of have to return to your contemplative practice 00:30:57.950 --> 00:31:01.390 and surrender all that to God. I was very moved. 00:31:01.549 --> 00:31:04.130 And I thank you for that beautiful sharing. Do 00:31:04.130 --> 00:31:07.089 you want to tell us any about that? Because we're 00:31:07.089 --> 00:31:09.569 all going through that in different ways. And 00:31:09.569 --> 00:31:14.589 we've all been raised. Not just individualism, 00:31:14.609 --> 00:31:17.589 but ego and the self. And that's not working, 00:31:17.650 --> 00:31:20.990 folks, in the world. So Jesus calls us to let 00:31:20.990 --> 00:31:23.890 go of that and not do our self -will, but surrender 00:31:23.890 --> 00:31:26.410 to God and follow him and live in the fire of 00:31:26.410 --> 00:31:30.750 the Holy Spirit, which is humility. Reflect with 00:31:30.750 --> 00:31:34.490 me on that. Well, that's interesting. I hadn't 00:31:34.490 --> 00:31:38.369 thought of that piece in a long time. But for 00:31:38.369 --> 00:31:44.589 me, I think that... Let me say this first. I 00:31:44.589 --> 00:31:47.750 think it's harder for males of the species, white 00:31:47.750 --> 00:31:52.269 males of the species. Yes. Because there is a 00:31:52.269 --> 00:31:55.369 whole cultural, I don't know if it's genetic, 00:31:55.529 --> 00:31:59.809 whatever it is, there's a layer. Let's just be 00:31:59.809 --> 00:32:04.309 real. You're making me laugh. Good, good. I'm 00:32:04.309 --> 00:32:09.309 glad it's laugh. That's challenging. But it's 00:32:09.309 --> 00:32:15.220 also... For women, it's also a challenge. But 00:32:15.220 --> 00:32:24.440 I think we're trained more to not hold on to 00:32:24.440 --> 00:32:34.200 our accomplishments, to not tout it. Let me tell 00:32:34.200 --> 00:32:37.240 you another story because I don't... Okay, so 00:32:37.240 --> 00:32:44.869 the... In 2022, I was working at my desk and 00:32:44.869 --> 00:32:49.410 I get a call and this woman says, would you hold 00:32:49.410 --> 00:32:52.930 for the president of the United States? Oh, I 00:32:52.930 --> 00:32:55.289 don't know. I'm kind of busy right now. I mean, 00:32:55.329 --> 00:32:58.450 you know what he's saying, of course. And then 00:32:58.450 --> 00:33:02.390 the president gets on the line and he tells me 00:33:02.390 --> 00:33:04.589 his requisite stories that he always tells me. 00:33:04.650 --> 00:33:06.450 Because I know I've told you this before, but 00:33:06.450 --> 00:33:12.940 I really like the stories. Then he asked, would 00:33:12.940 --> 00:33:15.859 I be willing to receive the Presidential Medal 00:33:15.859 --> 00:33:18.279 of Freedom? This is Biden we're talking about. 00:33:18.339 --> 00:33:21.240 This is Biden. This is Biden. And I was like, 00:33:22.140 --> 00:33:25.440 what I said was, you bring tears to my eyes. 00:33:25.619 --> 00:33:31.359 I just, I don't even know how to respond. And 00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:35.119 ended up saying, yes, of course, I'm willing. 00:33:36.680 --> 00:33:40.539 But I was so... touched by that but then what 00:33:40.539 --> 00:33:45.339 I realized what I was most touched by was what 00:33:45.339 --> 00:33:51.539 it meant to him to do it because he had been 00:33:51.539 --> 00:33:54.759 part of the health care fight he had been part 00:33:54.759 --> 00:33:57.759 of nuns on the bus and I mean there's a lot of 00:33:57.759 --> 00:34:01.359 ways that our lives were variously connected 00:34:01.359 --> 00:34:08.739 but what would be kind of an embarrassment of 00:34:08.739 --> 00:34:11.179 riches. I mean, for me, how do you say, oh, yeah, 00:34:11.239 --> 00:34:13.400 yeah, I just had this little medal here. I mean, 00:34:13.420 --> 00:34:15.380 you have no place to wear the thing, you know? 00:34:15.380 --> 00:34:19.239 So it's not like you can show it off. But what 00:34:19.239 --> 00:34:23.219 I realized was how, what a gift it was for him 00:34:23.219 --> 00:34:27.940 to be able to do it. Because it affirmed the 00:34:27.940 --> 00:34:32.440 intersections that our lives have had in such 00:34:32.440 --> 00:34:36.170 very lovely ways. But do you see how that's different? 00:34:36.329 --> 00:34:38.949 It's different than the thing itself. It's the 00:34:38.949 --> 00:34:42.730 process of the relationship. And that's what's 00:34:42.730 --> 00:34:46.570 so important. Or focusing on yourself. You're 00:34:46.570 --> 00:34:50.550 focusing on him and the relationship there. And 00:34:50.550 --> 00:34:53.090 the same with God, I presume, too, as opposed 00:34:53.090 --> 00:34:57.130 to taking credit for it. I mean mine, right? 00:34:57.769 --> 00:35:01.909 Right, right. But this is all about... Being 00:35:01.909 --> 00:35:08.389 able to be alive for others. That's what it is. 00:35:09.170 --> 00:35:13.909 It's all relationship. Thank you. My last question 00:35:13.909 --> 00:35:18.150 would be, again, this is embarrassing. I'm going 00:35:18.150 --> 00:35:20.210 to ask you this ridiculous question, but here 00:35:20.210 --> 00:35:23.650 goes. So you've told me your life story. We've 00:35:23.650 --> 00:35:26.469 talked about your journey into the order and 00:35:26.469 --> 00:35:30.139 then your sister and then the... Oakland Law 00:35:30.139 --> 00:35:33.860 Center, and then Network, and then Nuns on the 00:35:33.860 --> 00:35:36.280 Bus, and the Presidential Medal of Freedom, and 00:35:36.280 --> 00:35:38.760 your book, and Contemplative Strands, Prophetic 00:35:38.760 --> 00:35:41.920 Imagination, Community, and Justice, Justice, 00:35:42.039 --> 00:35:46.559 Justice. I don't even know how to say this, but 00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:51.440 here goes. Where do you see God? In all of this, 00:35:51.480 --> 00:35:55.380 how do you see God in this day -to -day journey 00:35:55.380 --> 00:35:59.039 for justice? And what suggestions do you have 00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:03.679 for our listeners who want to carry on and work 00:36:03.679 --> 00:36:07.219 for justice and peace and creation, but to do 00:36:07.219 --> 00:36:10.719 it in and for and with and through God and to 00:36:10.719 --> 00:36:15.400 see God in the process? It just is. Okay, another 00:36:15.400 --> 00:36:19.639 story at the end of a... After I was the leader 00:36:19.639 --> 00:36:22.039 of my community, I did seven weeks of Zen in 00:36:22.039 --> 00:36:25.179 Picture Rock outside of Tucson. I don't know 00:36:25.179 --> 00:36:26.880 if you know the retreat house. Yes. Gorgeous 00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:31.480 place. Anyway, and Pat Hawk, a Redemptorist priest, 00:36:31.599 --> 00:36:37.900 was my Zen teacher. And at the end of the retreat, 00:36:38.159 --> 00:36:41.460 I'm out walking in the desert, and I said, I'm 00:36:41.460 --> 00:36:43.099 going to go home the next day. And I'm like, 00:36:43.219 --> 00:36:49.719 oh, that's beautiful. I said something to the 00:36:49.719 --> 00:36:53.320 effect of, I'm going to miss you, God, in this 00:36:53.320 --> 00:36:57.099 beauty. And then I said to myself, yes, but you're 00:36:57.099 --> 00:37:03.440 everywhere, with the emphasis on geography. And 00:37:03.440 --> 00:37:07.960 what comes back to me is this, no, Simone, I 00:37:07.960 --> 00:37:13.760 am everywhere. And what I learned in that moment 00:37:13.760 --> 00:37:19.050 is that... The divine hums us at every moment. 00:37:19.610 --> 00:37:22.250 Nothing is separate from the divine. The divine 00:37:22.250 --> 00:37:27.210 is creating us at every moment. And so I can't 00:37:27.210 --> 00:37:31.750 even imagine how we could possibly ever be separate. 00:37:32.429 --> 00:37:37.710 And that the gift is occasionally. You get to 00:37:37.710 --> 00:37:41.719 see it. I get to hear the hum. Now, I goof around 00:37:41.719 --> 00:37:45.420 and say, the hymn of the universe, I only have 00:37:45.420 --> 00:37:50.420 the hum, but it is the essence of what holds 00:37:50.420 --> 00:37:53.440 us together. And so if the divine is holding 00:37:53.440 --> 00:37:56.360 us together at every moment, creating us every 00:37:56.360 --> 00:38:01.360 moment, then we're never far away. The only question 00:38:01.360 --> 00:38:05.719 is eyes to see. And then that becomes prayer. 00:38:06.199 --> 00:38:09.440 May I have eyes to see. That's how we do it. 00:38:10.349 --> 00:38:12.730 Is there anything you would like to add before 00:38:12.730 --> 00:38:17.230 we end? Tell you my most intimate spiritual experience? 00:38:17.250 --> 00:38:24.199 Yes. No. Hey, this has been so powerful and fun. 00:38:24.400 --> 00:38:26.960 And I thank you so much, Sister Simone Campbell, 00:38:27.079 --> 00:38:30.260 for sharing with me today and the last episode 00:38:30.260 --> 00:38:32.760 too. And thank you, dear friends, for listening 00:38:32.760 --> 00:38:36.119 to the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. You can hear 00:38:36.119 --> 00:38:38.880 more podcasts and find other upcoming Zoom programs 00:38:38.880 --> 00:38:43.460 at BeatitudesCenter .org. Please consider offering 00:38:43.460 --> 00:38:46.559 a donation to support this free work. And if 00:38:46.559 --> 00:38:48.639 you can, please leave some positive feedback 00:38:48.639 --> 00:38:51.360 or write a nice review to the National Catholic 00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:53.719 Reporter, where this appears on Monday mornings 00:38:53.719 --> 00:38:57.179 on the homepage, or on Apple or Spotify or YouTube 00:38:57.179 --> 00:39:00.119 or whatever platform you use. But please help 00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:02.800 spread the word about the podcast with your friends 00:39:02.800 --> 00:39:05.780 and church people, especially with priests and 00:39:05.780 --> 00:39:08.639 ministers. And may the God of peace bless you 00:39:08.639 --> 00:39:11.119 all. Keep on following the nonviolent Jesus. 00:39:11.420 --> 00:39:12.619 See you next time.