Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm
John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking
for part two of our conversation with social
justice activist and advocate, Sister Simone
Campbell. This is a project of www .beatitudescenter
.org, where you can find many other podcasts
and regular Zoom programs on the nonviolence
of Jesus and practicing nonviolence and working
for justice, disarmament, and peace. So let's
begin, as we always do, with a little prayer.
And I invite you, wherever you are, just to pause
for a moment and take a deep breath. And just
to relax and notice how you're feeling. Let's
all recenter ourselves. And again, enter into
the presence of the God of peace who loves you
infinitely and personally and loves everyone
everywhere. And let's welcome the nonviolent
Jesus. and his Holy Spirit here with us and ask
for the grace to follow him more faithfully and
to do God's will. God of peace, thank you for
all the blessings of life, love, and peace that
you give us. Be with us now as we reflect together
with Sister Simone on your call to follow the
nonviolent Jesus and to work for justice and
disarmament and creation. and to welcome your
reign of peace and nonviolence. Bless us, inspire
us, disarm us, strengthen us, and send us out
to do your will, to do our part in helping to
end poverty, injustice, racism, greed, war, genocide,
fascism, nuclear weapons, and the destruction
of the beautiful creation, that we might be your
holy beatitude people. your holy peacemakers,
and truly welcome your reign of universal love,
nonviolence, and peace on earth. We ask in Jesus'
name. Amen. So it's a pleasure to welcome back
my friend Sister Simone Campbell, one of the
strongest voices and leading organizers. for
social and economic justice in the United States.
So this is part two of our two -part conversation.
If you weren't able to listen to the first part,
I invite you to go back and listen to that first,
which was terrific, posted last week. We're just
going to take up from where we left off, but
just a brief introduction again. Sister Simone
Campbell is a Roman Catholic sister of social
service, a religious leader, attorney, author,
and recipient of the 2022 Presidential Medal
of Freedom. She worked for 17 years as executive
director of NETWORK, the National Catholic Lobby
for Social Justice, and was leader of Nuns on
the Bus. And her policy work was critical in
the passing of the Affordable Care Act. Before
that, she worked for 18 years at the Oakland
Community Law Center, which she founded. the
award -winning author of two great books, None
on the Bus and Hunger for Hope. So Sister Simone
Campbell, welcome back to the Nonviolent Jesus
podcast. Great to be with you. So we're going
to take up where we left off, and I was so moved
by your reflections the last time about all your
lifelong advocacy, your work as a lawyer on behalf
of the working poor, and how that led you to
network and then to really to... to publicly
engage everybody on all sides in the government
to help achieve the Affordable Care Act. And
really then through Nuns on the Bus and so many
other projects and your books to become a public
figure for justice, which is what we need. And
then I got your book, Simone, Hunger for Hope.
Prophetic Communities, Contemplation, and the
Common Good, published by Orbis, which I hope
everyone will get. And it walks through some
of the basic themes, as I see it, Simone, that
have motivated you and have supported you in
this amazing work you've done. When we last talked
and I was saying, well, how do we do this? How
do we stand up publicly and practice nonviolence
and be nonviolent? But even... enter into nonviolent
conflict resolution with people who oppose us,
you immediately started speaking about your contemplative
practice. And that's what you begin the book
with, which I was very moved by. So tell us more
about that and how that connects to all work
for justice and peace. And so, I mean, what do
you do? What is your contemplative practice?
What do you encourage people to do? And then
after that, Or during this, I want to also hear
about how you have a Zen practice, which I also
have. And I learned from Merton, which has made
a huge difference in all this. Well, okay. So
my practice is every morning, well, I take weekends
off. Monday through Friday, I have a half hour
of basically Zen sitting, which is being quiet,
emptying. myself, opening myself. I think of
it as deep listening, as being quiet so that
other things can bubble up. And then I do a half
hour of some reading. That's my morning tradition.
But during the day, then if I'm in a a situation
or engaged with somebody, I try to bring the
same sense of quiet, listening, attentiveness
to whoever I'm with as I do to the divine in
the morning. And it's the tradition of listening
that I find so important and so imperative if
we're going to be able to... create collaborations,
coalitions, if we are going to create change,
because what's required is understanding what
is happening in the other person as much as what's
happening in me. Does that make sense? It does,
and it's critically important. So let me ask
you, in terms of all the people listening, What
concrete suggestions you have to encourage people
in this time when very few people seem to be
listening to other people about how to do it.
Because what was so important to me was that,
okay, I've got a personal, private, contemplative
Zen practice of sitting and deep listening every
morning. But then you said, and then I live out
my day in that. And I continue, in a sense, to
the practice of deep listening. What advice do
you have for others about how they can do that
in their day to day? Just try it. Be at it. But
you know what it what it takes, John, for me
is to I have to be in a I have to feel secure
in myself to be willing to open myself up to
other points of view. And if I'm having these
days. I get riled about a whole bunch of stuff.
If I'm riled, I can't do this. So I have to find
a way to kind of like a lightning rod to get
that energy off and gone and then be curious
about another. And it's that curiosity. We talked
really briefly about nuns on the bus, but, you
know. We did, what, seven tours. And the bus
itself became literally a vehicle of curiosity.
Because our goal was to bring a message, yeah,
but our goal was to learn from the people we
met along the road. And if we think of ourselves
as learners, as opposed to... controllers or
dominators or any of this other stuff it's way
easier to have curiosity for the other because
that's my job is to be curious to learn and then
to share and see for me holy curiosity goes along
with sacred gossip where i share what i've heard
so that the combination allows for a weaving
together that's very different than usual political
discourse. Wow, that's beautiful. Thank you.
I always say wow, I'm trying not to. I'm very
moved. You know, there was a funny story you
told about a friend of ours who was interviewing
you in your book. You tell the story. What's
your favorite story of Jesus? I don't have any.
Who are you asking about? And you said, well,
I like the Holy Spirit. And that was just beautiful
because that's the charism of your order. And
you talk about Pentecost and you've already talked.
in your journey about Pentecostal moments. And
isn't that the heart of the Christian story that
we carry on in the spirit of the nonviolent Jesus?
Tell me about that. And living, you know, these
Pentecostal moments and living according to the
Holy Spirit, you know, the image is so powerful.
They're set on fire, and then they're set out,
and they have to speak out publicly. about Jesus
and the gospel, which means justice and discernment.
So tell me about that connection. Tell us about
Pentecost today. Oh my gosh. Well, okay. So my
community is, we're dedicated to the Holy Spirit.
So the medal we wear is the Holy Spirit, says
come Holy Spirit. And our big feast is Pentecost.
But what I have learned in... living this life
for so long is that Pentecost really is about
the flourishing of the Spirit in places that
are challenging or where I'm striving to understand
or I'm, you know, could be a little tough. Or
potential conflict. Pentecost is often about
conflict. You know, and remember the story of
Pentecost is that the apostles are all afraid.
They're in the upper room. They don't know what
to do. And the spirit comes on. And then Peter
and the apostles get up on the roof and they
start preaching to people and people understand
them in their own language. Now, the thing is,
is the apostles didn't learn other languages.
So for me, what that says is I don't need to
know your language. But I need to be able to
listen well enough and communicate well enough
that what I say might touch you. It's my language
to your language. And that's the important thing.
And the Pentecost is about the fire of the spirit.
It's that you can't contain it. You can't just
stay in the upper room. You got to move on. You
got to be engaged. You have to be a part of it.
Though I was giving a retreat. I love being fire.
I love being fire. For me, that spiritual experience
of being fire is just so, so exciting, so seductive.
Anyway, so I was giving a retreat to a bunch
of sisters. I had never done an eight -day retreat
before. I did this summer, and at one point I
said to the group, oh, don't you just want to
be fire? And this one sister said, oh, absolutely
not. It just made me laugh. I thought, each of
us has her own special calling. They're like,
can we get another retreat leader? You know,
you're reminding me of my friend and teacher,
Daniel Berrigan, who on a bad day once when the
bishops voted unanimously to support the bombing
of Afghanistan shortly after September 11th,
he said, they're all like firemen at Pentecost
putting out the fire of the Holy Spirit. I never
forgot that because who would even think of that?
Yeah. We want to put out the fires of the Holy
Spirit, whereas you and I, I hope, are trying
to help keep the fire going. Now, this is a related
question, and you brought this up in the book,
so I'm putting it on your scene. It's my fault.
Okay. Prophetic imagination. So I want you to
talk about that. It's a very important phrase
for me and for my teacher, Daniel Berrigan, and
it's basically, you know, With the contemplative
Zen practice and the Holy Spirit, you see the
world differently. You see through the eyes of
Jesus. And then you have to prophetically, well,
that just means speaking out what you're hearing
in your contemplative practice. So we're really
talking public speaking for justice and discernment.
And I just want to ask you, I'm just throwing
all these words and images out to you. You can
take them any way you want. But I think that's
a very big part of the work for justice and peace.
You know, growing up when I did as a young Jesuit
with the Barragans, I just thought, well, this
is a requirement of discipleship today, of living
out Pentecost. You have to go out publicly. I
don't want to speak. And I've spoken to the whole
world for the last 45 years. But I still don't
like it. And you know that quote that, what's
the greatest fear? This has been studied by Gallup.
Greatest fear of all the people in the United
States is public speaking. Death is second. Do
you know that's the very truth? People don't
know the secret. Tell me all about that. What
is the secret? For me, okay, I do a fair amount
of public speaking. But before, okay, I'm prepared.
I'll have an outline. I'll do something. But
before. It'll just be a prayer, come Holy Spirit.
And my prayer is not that I say the right thing,
but may they hear what they need. And that frees
me then to know that the Spirit will use words
for what people need. I've had people come up
to me after a talk I've given and say I said
something. I didn't say that, but that was all
right. That's what they got. And I think it's
the... We become, it's too easy in speaking,
public speaking, to become focused on ourselves
as opposed to the needs of the people that you're
speaking to. May they hear what they need. That's
all my prayer is. And if I'm the vehicle of it,
great. They get some other ideas, even better.
But to be, trust that the Spirit will work with
what's given. Oh, that's so beautiful because,
of course, it became a prayer, and then it's
not about you, it's about God. I remember my
friend, you probably know her well too, Sister
Joan Chittister, telling me not too long ago
that her entire life, for all the millions of
people she's spoken to, the moment she's walking
from the edge of the stage to the microphone.
She's praying, okay, it's you. It's all about
you. Whatever you want to say, you say through
me. I don't care. It's not about me. I'm too
old. I've been there, done that. And it's taken
me a long time to learn that, you know, as a
Jesuit race, you know, to get over the ego and
the self and to take credit. That's such baloney.
So tell me then about this beautiful phrase of
Walter Brueggemann, which you use in Hunger for
Hope, the prophetic imagination. I know I stole
it from him. You stole it. I'm calling you out
on that. I'm grateful. I'm grateful that you
are, because I have to properly footnote, I am
a lawyer, you know. Okay, so his book, Prophetic
Imagination, was very formative in shaping my
understanding of Scripture. And so he's got one...
little paragraph in the intro to the second edition,
25 years after it was first published, it was
published again. And unbeknownst to myself, I
bought the second version and then went to put,
after I read it, I was so excited. It was fabulous.
Went to put it on the shelf. I did have his first
edition too. And I totally forgotten 25 years
earlier. But anyway, what he says is that the
community, nurture is a prophetic imagination
and that that community biblically has five characteristics
and the first is a long and available memory
which is one of the things we struggle with in
our country is that we don't have a long and
available memory people forget like i forgot
that I had his book 25 years earlier. But that's
one thing, that we forget our history. We forget
what we struggled through. We forget, or we try
to erase it, what's happening with the African
-American Museum now and erasing the story of
our sinful past in slavery. So it's a long and
available memory. Touching the pain of the world
is real. And what he says is that our temptation
is to fix the pain of the world. And that's not
what we're called to, that if we really want
to have a prophetic imagination, we have to touch
the reality of the pain. We have to have an active
experience of hope. Not like, oh, yeah, I had
hope once. You know, when I took first vows,
I was very hopeful. No, hope has to continue.
And hope is the communal virtue. That's what
I'm writing about. So you've got to be in connection
community. The fourth is to have effective, he
says, is effective discourse across generations.
And I add, and cultures. Because if you don't
talk across generations, we're not going to have
imagination. We're not going to be able to see
in new ways. We're not going to understand the
weaving of our society. And then the last, which
is really distressing because it's hard, is his
fifth characteristic of a community that nurtures.
A prophetic imagination is the capacity to sustain
long -term tension with the dominant culture.
Isn't that annoying? But it is that capacity
because in the long -term tension is the potential
for growth inside an imagination. Now, I must
confess, it's easier for me to do that with our
civil society. Than it is for me to do with the
church. And it's equally true in the church.
Thank you so much, Simone. That's so powerful.
We could talk all day about that some more and
his themes and just I hope everyone will mull
over what Simone has said about. How can we all
reclaim the prophetic imagination? Exactly. It's
all of ours. It's all of ours. All of ours. That's
the key, I think, thing Jesus wants us to do.
It's even in the Sermon on the Mount. Then you
get to be like the prophets of old. If you live
the Beatitudes, then you get to do this, rejoice
and be glad. And Dan talked a lot about that.
Now we get to be like Dorothy Day and Dr. King.
But you were focusing on how all of this flows
from community. Now, you know, when I was young
and about in the 80s, we were all forming small
group communities to resist Central America,
U .S. war making and nukes and poverty. There
were affinity groups, even in non -church or
non -religious activists. It seems to me that
a lot of that is gone, but we need it more than
ever today. And that's what our sisters and brothers
in Latin America and Africa learned, the base
community movement. So I want you to talk about
community and how we might, how people, if they
don't have it, could form it around them as a
way to go forward and live out this prophetic
imagination, be advocates for justice. So, for
example. You know, just call like -minded friends
together or start a Pucks Christy group or the
importance of community in your life. Dan Berrigan,
you know, I watched him for 35 years. He actually
had dozens of communities. He had communities
within communities within communities. He even
had a small peace group that met every other
Tuesday night for the last 35 years of his life.
And he never missed a meeting. There were six
of us there. And that's what sustained him. But
they had the Jesuit community. Anyway, tell us
your thoughts on community, which you write about
beautifully in the book. Well, I think community
is at the heart of hope. I mean, you can't have
hope if you don't have community, I think. And
that a lot of the hardship that people are...
laboring through now is for lack of community.
I mean, I don't want to knock podcasts. This
is great. But we have podcasts. You can hear
anything now. You can see it on YouTube. You
can redo it. I can check my phone. I just got
an email from a friend. Oh, that's great. But
that's not community. Community is when you're
in relationship enough that you rub each other
a little bit so that some of my barnacles fall
off and maybe some of yours do too. And then
we're able to have fresh, inside fresh capacity
to see the world in some different ways. And
I guess one of the things that was always so
important for me, wherever I have been doing
ministry, is that we create a small community
in that context. For instance, at Network or
at the Law Center, We would eat lunch together,
whoever was around. But it wasn't because it
was a rule. It was because of forming community,
being connected, caring beyond just the task,
knowing you well enough and you're knowing me
well enough that we could meet in some meaningful
fashion. That's at the heart of what's missing,
I think, right now. It's individualism and isolation.
I don't want to just nix this AI thing, but AI
is going to have to find community somehow. Well,
that's beautiful and very powerful. Thank you,
and I hope we can all, as Simone says, continue
to build community. You've also used the word
hope a lot, and that's the name of your book,
Hunger for Hope. I was very moved, too, when
you talked about touching the pain and that,
you know, I certainly felt on fire with hope
as a young kid when I was starting my journey.
And it's very different now. I was thinking,
too, so I want to ask you about hope. I want
you to talk about that and experiencing that
and cultivating it. And I'm reflecting with you
to give you a moment here before you get into
it. I was thinking, too, as you spoke about my
take on the story of. The doubting Thomas at
the end of the Gospel of John, and we could talk
a lot about that, but he doesn't believe until
he touches the wounds. And some of us really
need to touch the wounds of the poor and the
pain of the suffering people on the planet before
we can be reignited in hope. And be set on fire
again and really believe and say, my Lord and
my God, which means he's going to get killed
because Diocletian had said only he's to be allowed
to be called my Lord and my God. Then, Simone,
I found this incredible statement from Martin
Luther King. Forgive me, I tell everybody about
this, so you're stuck with me. He never talked
about hope. Did you ever notice that about Martin?
He never. And I always say that's because everything
he did worked out. You know, and he was there
was a real burden. He couldn't figure it out.
Like, oh, my God, people expect me to walk on
water. And then he spoke out against the Vietnam
War. And then he says, we're bringing all the
poor to D .C. to demand justice. And his days
were numbered and he knew it. And the week. Before
he was killed, he started talking about hope
for the first time in his life. And in Memphis,
one of the things he said was, tonight I'm announcing
my definition of hope, which is very different
than anything I'd ever heard of. He called it
the final refusal to give up. I'm just not going
away, folks. You're going to have to kill me.
And I find that very powerful. So tell me about
living in hope and maintaining hope and experiencing
hope. And what that all means for us today and
this kind of hopeless moment we're facing. Or
maybe it's not hopeless. Maybe it's a new opportunity.
We don't know. Yeah, we don't know. And it can
be hopeless if we don't respond. But for me,
it really is critically connected to touching
the pain of the world as real. Let me give you
a story. On the first bus trip in Cincinnati,
these two women, Jeannie and Lynn, came and they're
a couple and they had just been to Jeannie's
sister's funeral. Jeannie's sister, Margaret,
died because she didn't have health care. This
was before the ACA had been fully implemented.
She'd lost her job in the recession. When she
lost her job, she lost her health care. By the
time she was literally carried into the emergency
room, she was terminally ill with colon cancer.
And to touch that reality, and they brought me,
Jeannie and Lynn brought me her picture. Touching
that picture. allows me to touch the pain that
Margaret lived through and renews my hope, my
spirit, that no more Margaret should die for
lack of health care. But it's not a theory. It's
not a removed thing. It's not something. It's
Margaret. Margaret fuels my passion that we as
a nation take care of all of our people. The
richest nation on earth? I think we can do it.
But see the connection between being in a relationship
with Jeannie and Lynn, having that connectedness,
and then being able to touch the pain of the
world. That just sets fire. It demands a response.
I can't sit still. That's hope. That's living
in hope. And then living out that fire, which
is the Pentecost again. Simone, that's so helpful.
Thank you. I have two big ones to ask you, but
I still have a hundred other questions for you.
So we're going to have to do this some other
day. Now, look, forgive me for if this is crossing
a boundary, but you wrote an amazing essay in
America magazine about being on the Colbert show.
And I want to ask you about that because I've
never seen anybody talk about such an experience.
We're really talking here about the ego. And
I think it's very helpful for all of us. And
it was really, to me, an invitation and humility.
I don't remember when it came out or what you
remember of it, but I only just read it the other
day. And basically you're going, hey, friends,
I was on the Colbert show. You want to know what
that was like? And so, of course, you know, Simone,
full disclosure. I'm asking this personally because
it's stuff I struggle with, my big ego. And letting
go of the self and self -will and doing only
God's will and finally learning humility before
God, especially if we want to work for God or
be filled with the Spirit. And you write about
the whole journey of having to process having
been on The Colbert Show. Wait a second. Is this
my ego run amok getting out of control when I'm
supposed to be advocating for the people? Like
Margaret, you just spoke about, who are suffering
and dying because of our policies. And you get
mixed up. And we all get mixed up. And you kind
of have to return to your contemplative practice
and surrender all that to God. I was very moved.
And I thank you for that beautiful sharing. Do
you want to tell us any about that? Because we're
all going through that in different ways. And
we've all been raised. Not just individualism,
but ego and the self. And that's not working,
folks, in the world. So Jesus calls us to let
go of that and not do our self -will, but surrender
to God and follow him and live in the fire of
the Holy Spirit, which is humility. Reflect with
me on that. Well, that's interesting. I hadn't
thought of that piece in a long time. But for
me, I think that... Let me say this first. I
think it's harder for males of the species, white
males of the species. Yes. Because there is a
whole cultural, I don't know if it's genetic,
whatever it is, there's a layer. Let's just be
real. You're making me laugh. Good, good. I'm
glad it's laugh. That's challenging. But it's
also... For women, it's also a challenge. But
I think we're trained more to not hold on to
our accomplishments, to not tout it. Let me tell
you another story because I don't... Okay, so
the... In 2022, I was working at my desk and
I get a call and this woman says, would you hold
for the president of the United States? Oh, I
don't know. I'm kind of busy right now. I mean,
you know what he's saying, of course. And then
the president gets on the line and he tells me
his requisite stories that he always tells me.
Because I know I've told you this before, but
I really like the stories. Then he asked, would
I be willing to receive the Presidential Medal
of Freedom? This is Biden we're talking about.
This is Biden. This is Biden. And I was like,
what I said was, you bring tears to my eyes.
I just, I don't even know how to respond. And
ended up saying, yes, of course, I'm willing.
But I was so... touched by that but then what
I realized what I was most touched by was what
it meant to him to do it because he had been
part of the health care fight he had been part
of nuns on the bus and I mean there's a lot of
ways that our lives were variously connected
but what would be kind of an embarrassment of
riches. I mean, for me, how do you say, oh, yeah,
yeah, I just had this little medal here. I mean,
you have no place to wear the thing, you know?
So it's not like you can show it off. But what
I realized was how, what a gift it was for him
to be able to do it. Because it affirmed the
intersections that our lives have had in such
very lovely ways. But do you see how that's different?
It's different than the thing itself. It's the
process of the relationship. And that's what's
so important. Or focusing on yourself. You're
focusing on him and the relationship there. And
the same with God, I presume, too, as opposed
to taking credit for it. I mean mine, right?
Right, right. But this is all about... Being
able to be alive for others. That's what it is.
It's all relationship. Thank you. My last question
would be, again, this is embarrassing. I'm going
to ask you this ridiculous question, but here
goes. So you've told me your life story. We've
talked about your journey into the order and
then your sister and then the... Oakland Law
Center, and then Network, and then Nuns on the
Bus, and the Presidential Medal of Freedom, and
your book, and Contemplative Strands, Prophetic
Imagination, Community, and Justice, Justice,
Justice. I don't even know how to say this, but
here goes. Where do you see God? In all of this,
how do you see God in this day -to -day journey
for justice? And what suggestions do you have
for our listeners who want to carry on and work
for justice and peace and creation, but to do
it in and for and with and through God and to
see God in the process? It just is. Okay, another
story at the end of a... After I was the leader
of my community, I did seven weeks of Zen in
Picture Rock outside of Tucson. I don't know
if you know the retreat house. Yes. Gorgeous
place. Anyway, and Pat Hawk, a Redemptorist priest,
was my Zen teacher. And at the end of the retreat,
I'm out walking in the desert, and I said, I'm
going to go home the next day. And I'm like,
oh, that's beautiful. I said something to the
effect of, I'm going to miss you, God, in this
beauty. And then I said to myself, yes, but you're
everywhere, with the emphasis on geography. And
what comes back to me is this, no, Simone, I
am everywhere. And what I learned in that moment
is that... The divine hums us at every moment.
Nothing is separate from the divine. The divine
is creating us at every moment. And so I can't
even imagine how we could possibly ever be separate.
And that the gift is occasionally. You get to
see it. I get to hear the hum. Now, I goof around
and say, the hymn of the universe, I only have
the hum, but it is the essence of what holds
us together. And so if the divine is holding
us together at every moment, creating us every
moment, then we're never far away. The only question
is eyes to see. And then that becomes prayer.
May I have eyes to see. That's how we do it.
Is there anything you would like to add before
we end? Tell you my most intimate spiritual experience?
Yes. No. Hey, this has been so powerful and fun.
And I thank you so much, Sister Simone Campbell,
for sharing with me today and the last episode
too. And thank you, dear friends, for listening
to the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. You can hear
more podcasts and find other upcoming Zoom programs
at BeatitudesCenter .org. Please consider offering
a donation to support this free work. And if
you can, please leave some positive feedback
or write a nice review to the National Catholic
Reporter, where this appears on Monday mornings
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and church people, especially with priests and
ministers. And may the God of peace bless you
all. Keep on following the nonviolent Jesus.
See you next time.