WEBVTT 00:00:14.699 --> 00:00:17.620 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:17.620 --> 00:00:20.199 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:20.199 --> 00:00:23.660 with legendary social justice activist, Sister 00:00:23.660 --> 00:00:29.079 Simone Campbell. This is a project of www .beatitudescenter 00:00:29.079 --> 00:00:32.640 .org, where you can find many other podcasts 00:00:32.640 --> 00:00:35.619 and regular Zoom programs on the nonviolence 00:00:35.619 --> 00:00:38.640 of Jesus and practicing nonviolence and working 00:00:38.640 --> 00:00:42.880 for a more just, more nonviolent world. So let's 00:00:42.880 --> 00:00:44.920 begin with a little prayer, as I always like 00:00:44.920 --> 00:00:48.340 to do. And so I invite all our listeners, wherever 00:00:48.340 --> 00:00:51.280 you are, just to take a deep breath, just to 00:00:51.280 --> 00:00:57.119 relax and recenter yourself. And together, let's 00:00:57.119 --> 00:01:00.500 enter into the presence of the God of peace who 00:01:00.500 --> 00:01:03.799 loves you infinitely and personally and everyone 00:01:03.799 --> 00:01:07.719 everywhere, too. And we welcome the nonviolent 00:01:07.719 --> 00:01:14.209 Jesus with us and his spirit. And just ask for 00:01:14.209 --> 00:01:16.450 the grace to follow the nonviolent Jesus more 00:01:16.450 --> 00:01:23.590 faithfully and to do God's will. Beloved God 00:01:23.590 --> 00:01:26.290 of peace, thank you for all the blessings of 00:01:26.290 --> 00:01:29.609 life, love, and peace that you give us. Be with 00:01:29.609 --> 00:01:32.310 us now as we reflect together with Sister Simone 00:01:32.310 --> 00:01:36.030 on your call to follow the nonviolent Jesus and 00:01:36.030 --> 00:01:39.629 to work for justice and peace and disarmament 00:01:39.629 --> 00:01:43.469 and creation. Bless us, inspire us, disarm us, 00:01:43.549 --> 00:01:46.769 strengthen us, heal us, and send us out to do 00:01:46.769 --> 00:01:50.099 your will that we might do our part. to help 00:01:50.099 --> 00:01:54.939 end poverty, injustice, racism, greed, and war, 00:01:55.180 --> 00:01:58.299 genocide, fascism, nuclear weapons, and environmental 00:01:58.299 --> 00:02:01.480 destruction, that we might be your holy beatitude 00:02:01.480 --> 00:02:04.799 people, your holy peacemakers, and welcome your 00:02:04.799 --> 00:02:08.280 reign of universal love, nonviolence, and peace 00:02:08.280 --> 00:02:13.120 on earth. In Jesus' name, amen. Well, friends, 00:02:13.199 --> 00:02:15.280 it's a great pleasure to welcome Sister Simone 00:02:15.280 --> 00:02:18.159 Campbell, one of the strongest voices and leaders. 00:02:19.389 --> 00:02:22.610 and organizers for social and economic justice 00:02:22.610 --> 00:02:26.469 in the U .S. This is part one of a two -part 00:02:26.469 --> 00:02:29.430 conversation we're going to have. A Roman Catholic 00:02:29.430 --> 00:02:32.449 sister of social service. Sister Simone is a 00:02:32.449 --> 00:02:35.669 religious leader, attorney, author, and recipient 00:02:35.669 --> 00:02:39.969 of the 2022 Presidential Medal of Freedom. She 00:02:39.969 --> 00:02:43.129 has extensive experience in public policy based 00:02:43.129 --> 00:02:45.509 on her work with people at the economic margins. 00:02:45.909 --> 00:02:48.830 She's currently an Emerson elder with the Emerson 00:02:48.830 --> 00:02:51.990 Collective focusing on political healing. For 00:02:51.990 --> 00:02:55.490 17 years, she was the executive director of NETWORK, 00:02:55.509 --> 00:02:58.250 the National Catholic Lobby for Social Justice, 00:02:58.490 --> 00:03:01.490 based out of Washington, D .C., and the leader 00:03:01.490 --> 00:03:05.349 of Nuns on the Bus. Her health care policy work 00:03:05.349 --> 00:03:07.349 was critical in the passing of the Affordable 00:03:07.349 --> 00:03:11.340 Care Act, or Obamacare. Before that, she spent 00:03:11.340 --> 00:03:13.979 18 years working at the Oakland Community Law 00:03:13.979 --> 00:03:17.020 Center, which she founded. She's also served 00:03:17.020 --> 00:03:19.979 as the leader of her religious community and 00:03:19.979 --> 00:03:22.800 now serves on their governing councils. Her two 00:03:22.800 --> 00:03:25.840 award -winning books are A Nun on the Bus and 00:03:25.840 --> 00:03:29.120 Hunger for Hope. And you can learn much more 00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:32.740 about her online. Sister Simone Campbell, welcome 00:03:32.740 --> 00:03:36.620 to the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. Great to be 00:03:36.620 --> 00:03:41.319 with you. I'm so happy that you're here and you've 00:03:41.319 --> 00:03:45.060 worked so hard over many decades for basic social 00:03:45.060 --> 00:03:48.340 justice here in the U .S., most famously for 00:03:48.340 --> 00:03:51.639 the Affordable Care Act. And I thank you on behalf 00:03:51.639 --> 00:03:54.319 of everybody for your lifelong work and the inspiration 00:03:54.319 --> 00:03:58.580 you've been. But right now, today, on every front, 00:03:58.780 --> 00:04:01.979 we're under attack from the Trump administration, 00:04:02.099 --> 00:04:05.960 which is systematically... Cutting anything that 00:04:05.960 --> 00:04:08.400 serves basic social and economic justice from 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:10.460 health care, housing, education, and equality 00:04:10.460 --> 00:04:13.780 to getting rid of voting rights, civil rights, 00:04:13.960 --> 00:04:16.439 human rights, while continuing to promote war 00:04:16.439 --> 00:04:19.519 and military spending, threatening the world 00:04:19.519 --> 00:04:22.459 with nuclear weapons, and dismantling any and 00:04:22.459 --> 00:04:25.560 all progress toward environmental justice and 00:04:25.560 --> 00:04:29.829 sustainability. So we're moving, as you know 00:04:29.829 --> 00:04:34.470 so well, Simone, into full -blown authoritarianism, 00:04:34.569 --> 00:04:40.350 fascism, white supremacy, really tyranny, as 00:04:40.350 --> 00:04:42.490 the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution 00:04:42.490 --> 00:04:45.329 warned, and witnessing the end of democracy. 00:04:45.629 --> 00:04:48.310 So I thought we should just dive right into the 00:04:48.310 --> 00:04:51.470 deep end and start talking about all that's happening. 00:04:51.670 --> 00:04:55.089 And we've got time. So however you want to... 00:04:55.660 --> 00:04:57.759 What is your take on all this, and how do you 00:04:57.759 --> 00:05:01.740 see what's happening? Well, I think one of the 00:05:01.740 --> 00:05:05.819 biggest, well, I don't know the biggest problem, 00:05:05.860 --> 00:05:12.399 but a key problem is the loss of a Republican 00:05:12.399 --> 00:05:18.220 Party, and that our democracy established itself 00:05:18.220 --> 00:05:22.019 over almost 250 years with a two -party system. 00:05:25.199 --> 00:05:31.019 It really does require for there to be a balanced 00:05:31.019 --> 00:05:34.180 approach that allows for the flourishing of everyone, 00:05:34.420 --> 00:05:40.079 that business be represented. And what's happened, 00:05:40.139 --> 00:05:46.759 I think, is that business, because it is not 00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:51.480 nationally bound anymore, has much less interest 00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:55.459 in national politics except for the... the purpose 00:05:55.459 --> 00:06:01.899 of tariffs and taxes. But business leaders are 00:06:01.899 --> 00:06:06.079 not aligned in a particular party at this point. 00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:10.899 So the Republican Party lost its reason for being. 00:06:11.139 --> 00:06:14.680 The Democratic Party, on the other hand, has 00:06:14.680 --> 00:06:21.000 become trying to create the big tent, has created 00:06:21.000 --> 00:06:26.220 such a huge tent. that everyone's afraid of conflict. 00:06:26.620 --> 00:06:29.579 And so, because you've got to accept everybody. 00:06:29.740 --> 00:06:33.379 Everybody needs to be accepted. I basically believe 00:06:33.379 --> 00:06:37.439 that. But conflict is required in order to clarify 00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:43.399 ideas, focus action, and be engaged. And I think 00:06:43.399 --> 00:06:48.680 sometimes we can mistake nonviolence for non 00:06:48.680 --> 00:06:51.910 -conflict, for just go along to get along. And 00:06:51.910 --> 00:06:57.410 what for me is at the heart of our work is a 00:06:57.410 --> 00:07:03.110 sense of seeking policies that benefit the 100%, 00:07:03.110 --> 00:07:08.410 that benefit everyone, not the few. And so that 00:07:08.410 --> 00:07:17.189 is a work that I think we have lost some. of 00:07:17.189 --> 00:07:20.430 politically progressives have lost some of their 00:07:20.430 --> 00:07:25.790 capacity for compromise, for coming together, 00:07:25.910 --> 00:07:29.069 trying to find a common way forward. And so the 00:07:29.069 --> 00:07:35.290 absence of a Republican Party, in many ways paralysis 00:07:35.290 --> 00:07:41.649 of a more progressive view, then leaves us victims 00:07:41.649 --> 00:07:47.959 ready to be victimized by this. current expression 00:07:47.959 --> 00:07:54.319 of authoritarianism, fascism, and to be enamored 00:07:54.319 --> 00:08:00.699 of the, dare I say, the gold or glamour that 00:08:00.699 --> 00:08:04.939 goes with this current presidency. So there's 00:08:04.939 --> 00:08:07.939 change that needs to happen in a lot of different 00:08:07.939 --> 00:08:09.980 areas if we're going to save this democracy. 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:13.399 But the first thing is that I think is most important 00:08:13.399 --> 00:08:16.060 at this moment is we have to learn to talk to 00:08:16.060 --> 00:08:20.060 each other and find best practices, best ways 00:08:20.060 --> 00:08:23.019 forward, willingness to give and take a bit. 00:08:23.420 --> 00:08:27.180 But we have to be engaged. And right now, because 00:08:27.180 --> 00:08:32.259 of the overwhelming craziness. My experience 00:08:32.259 --> 00:08:35.019 is most people are just back and away, back and 00:08:35.019 --> 00:08:36.759 away. I'm going to stay quietly in my little 00:08:36.759 --> 00:08:40.639 house or my little hole. And I'll poke my head 00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:42.419 out when things are a little safer, but it's 00:08:42.419 --> 00:08:46.259 not now. So we've got a lot of work to do. Wow, 00:08:46.360 --> 00:08:48.580 that was so helpful and not what I expected. 00:08:48.580 --> 00:08:52.360 You really diagnosed the situation, I think, 00:08:52.399 --> 00:08:58.330 in a very helpful and obvious way. But you did 00:08:58.330 --> 00:09:00.289 bring up the word nonviolence, which you know 00:09:00.289 --> 00:09:04.029 is at the heart of much of my work. So let's 00:09:04.029 --> 00:09:08.450 just stay with that for a moment. I totally see 00:09:08.450 --> 00:09:10.610 that with you, that a lot of people are backing 00:09:10.610 --> 00:09:13.250 down. They're overwhelmed. They're just trying 00:09:13.250 --> 00:09:17.230 to get by, and they feel very powerless and hopeless. 00:09:18.990 --> 00:09:22.809 But that's not nonviolence. Like, let's say Gandhi 00:09:22.809 --> 00:09:25.730 or Dr. King or Dorothy Day, not to mention Jesus, 00:09:25.870 --> 00:09:29.110 would show. And you talked about engagement and 00:09:29.110 --> 00:09:31.830 not being afraid of conflict, but just not being 00:09:31.830 --> 00:09:35.289 violent. And that's been a lot of your work as 00:09:35.289 --> 00:09:39.950 a leading lobbyist for progressive ideals and 00:09:39.950 --> 00:09:45.139 policies on the Hill for all these decades. Can 00:09:45.139 --> 00:09:47.620 you give people some concrete suggestions about 00:09:47.620 --> 00:09:51.879 how to be engaged and how to remain nonviolent 00:09:51.879 --> 00:09:55.720 at the local level and, you know, maybe why they 00:09:55.720 --> 00:09:59.899 should stand up and get involved? I always say 00:09:59.899 --> 00:10:01.820 the only way change will happen is bottom -up 00:10:01.820 --> 00:10:06.200 people power movements. And we have to be part 00:10:06.200 --> 00:10:09.000 of that. But you tell it to me, explain it to 00:10:09.000 --> 00:10:12.460 me. What concrete advice along those lines would 00:10:12.460 --> 00:10:15.470 you have? To help us get out of ourselves, out 00:10:15.470 --> 00:10:20.649 of the hole, you know? Well, I think it starts 00:10:20.649 --> 00:10:24.490 with a contemplative practice, quite frankly. 00:10:24.669 --> 00:10:27.309 I mean, this is how it works for me. A contemplative 00:10:27.309 --> 00:10:30.049 practice, which is about listening, deep listening 00:10:30.049 --> 00:10:33.610 to the needs of the time and just being present 00:10:33.610 --> 00:10:39.019 and then acting on. on what I hear. And what 00:10:39.019 --> 00:10:43.240 it has led me to is what I call holy curiosity. 00:10:44.220 --> 00:10:48.360 Holy curiosity is wanting to understand the other. 00:10:48.759 --> 00:10:52.960 How did you get here? What matters? Why do you 00:10:52.960 --> 00:10:56.460 care about this? And then after engaging the 00:10:56.460 --> 00:10:59.019 other to hear their story, well, do you know 00:10:59.019 --> 00:11:02.600 about this story? Do you know about, can I tell 00:11:02.600 --> 00:11:07.809 you about? Somebody I've met. And using curiosity 00:11:07.809 --> 00:11:15.049 and then sharing stories has been a tremendous 00:11:15.049 --> 00:11:19.889 both motivator and also an effective advocacy 00:11:19.889 --> 00:11:23.889 tool because it builds community. It builds connections. 00:11:24.710 --> 00:11:28.429 And in a sense, what we try to do in advocacy 00:11:28.429 --> 00:11:31.370 is to do the best for the broader community. 00:11:32.330 --> 00:11:37.889 And that's the, if you saw my hands waving around, 00:11:38.009 --> 00:11:41.490 you'd probably understand this better. But it's 00:11:41.490 --> 00:11:45.850 understanding the other, but understanding the 00:11:45.850 --> 00:11:48.330 other then becomes an invitation to introduce 00:11:48.330 --> 00:11:51.169 somebody else to the conversation. Let me give 00:11:51.169 --> 00:11:59.350 you an example. I was in Indianapolis. This was 00:11:59.350 --> 00:12:02.649 a while ago. It was actually. before the first 00:12:02.649 --> 00:12:06.590 Trump term. And I met this guy who was a worker, 00:12:07.129 --> 00:12:12.809 kind of a, you know, kind of not heavy set, muscular, 00:12:13.049 --> 00:12:17.029 big shoulders, had done manual work, had been 00:12:17.029 --> 00:12:20.929 really, you know, was a worker. He was an assembly 00:12:20.929 --> 00:12:23.330 line kind of guy. He'd worked hard all his life. 00:12:23.429 --> 00:12:29.110 And he was so for Trump. And so I tried to... 00:12:29.980 --> 00:12:32.759 find out what was going on with him. How come? 00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:36.580 How come he was for Trump? And he said, whoa, 00:12:36.779 --> 00:12:41.379 whoa. And then he goes off on that his parents 00:12:41.379 --> 00:12:43.259 had always told him, if you worked hard, played 00:12:43.259 --> 00:12:45.639 by the rules, you'd get ahead. If you worked 00:12:45.639 --> 00:12:48.019 hard, played by the rules, you'd get ahead. And 00:12:48.019 --> 00:12:50.879 he hadn't. He'd worked hard, he'd played by the 00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:53.679 rules, and he hadn't gotten ahead. And what attracted 00:12:53.679 --> 00:12:57.820 him to Trump was the anger. And his kids had 00:12:57.820 --> 00:13:00.080 gone to college, but they hadn't been able to 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:03.019 get good jobs and they had to come home and they 00:13:03.019 --> 00:13:06.740 were working at home trying to pay the college 00:13:06.740 --> 00:13:12.220 loans. And his parents had told him if you worked 00:13:12.220 --> 00:13:15.019 hard, played by the rules, you'd get ahead. And 00:13:15.019 --> 00:13:18.259 as I listened to him kind of deeply trying to 00:13:18.259 --> 00:13:21.440 hear this, I realized his parents kept entering 00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:24.100 into this thing about what they told him. And 00:13:24.100 --> 00:13:31.700 I said to him, Gee, it sounds to me like you 00:13:31.700 --> 00:13:35.200 fear that you've disappointed your parents. Is 00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:39.899 that true? And damn, he got tears in his eyes. 00:13:40.080 --> 00:13:44.360 It was like such a surprise. But what I realized 00:13:44.360 --> 00:13:51.679 for myself was listening to his sense, his analysis 00:13:51.679 --> 00:13:56.950 of failure. of not measuring up, of working hard, 00:13:57.029 --> 00:13:59.029 playing by the rules, but not getting ahead. 00:13:59.629 --> 00:14:03.350 And his kids' struggle just left him feeling 00:14:03.350 --> 00:14:08.710 powerless and therefore angry. And it was anger 00:14:08.710 --> 00:14:11.889 that was drawing him, not policy. He didn't have 00:14:11.889 --> 00:14:14.690 a clue about any of the policies. Of course, 00:14:14.730 --> 00:14:16.549 Trump didn't have a clue about any of the policies 00:14:16.549 --> 00:14:18.970 either, but that's a different story. But that 00:14:18.970 --> 00:14:23.090 he was responding emotionally. And it's that 00:14:23.090 --> 00:14:32.610 kind of emotional vulnerability that we really 00:14:32.610 --> 00:14:37.950 don't have a way of dealing with. And the other 00:14:37.950 --> 00:14:44.289 thing that that exchange taught me is that work 00:14:44.289 --> 00:14:48.629 hard, play by the rules, get ahead. Well, that 00:14:48.629 --> 00:14:53.950 certainly was true for the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s 00:14:53.950 --> 00:14:58.789 even. But we're pretty far ahead. I mean, most 00:14:58.789 --> 00:15:03.370 people live very good lives, but they have this 00:15:03.370 --> 00:15:05.570 expectation that we're going to get even further 00:15:05.570 --> 00:15:08.649 ahead. So I've been on a quest. I don't know 00:15:08.649 --> 00:15:11.070 if this kind of fits here, I guess. I've been 00:15:11.070 --> 00:15:15.799 on a quest for another mantra. That we work hard, 00:15:15.799 --> 00:15:20.000 play by the rules, and we facilitate community. 00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:25.460 It's not the individualism. I'm looking for a 00:15:25.460 --> 00:15:28.039 way to talk about community, because that was 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:31.440 what was missing from his analysis. Wow, Simone, 00:15:31.559 --> 00:15:34.299 thank you for that. A lot of what you said is 00:15:34.299 --> 00:15:37.500 the basics of your book, Hunger for Hope, I think. 00:15:38.039 --> 00:15:41.179 And I want to revisit most of those in the second 00:15:41.179 --> 00:15:48.519 half. You know, I guess you began by saying, 00:15:48.580 --> 00:15:51.700 well, the only way you could do this is by having 00:15:51.700 --> 00:15:55.080 a contemplative practice. And that means being 00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:58.159 nonviolent in the midst of all of this. So if 00:15:58.159 --> 00:15:59.860 you're contemplative, you can get out of the 00:15:59.860 --> 00:16:02.480 hole that we dig ourselves into to avoid all 00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:05.879 this. And you can get engaged, but you'll stay 00:16:05.879 --> 00:16:09.039 nonviolent. You know, what I have never heard, 00:16:09.139 --> 00:16:11.730 and I don't know if it's in your book. Any Christian 00:16:11.730 --> 00:16:14.789 talk about curiosity. But I do a lot of work 00:16:14.789 --> 00:16:16.769 with Buddhists. And do you know that that's a 00:16:16.769 --> 00:16:18.929 big word for them and it goes back to Buddha? 00:16:20.269 --> 00:16:25.399 Oh. Well, yes. I didn't know that. I have had 00:16:25.399 --> 00:16:28.500 a Zen practice. Oh, and now everything makes 00:16:28.500 --> 00:16:31.600 sense. I don't know how you can be a lobbyist 00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:35.220 because I did that as a kid. And I grew up in 00:16:35.220 --> 00:16:37.340 D .C. My father was head of the press club and 00:16:37.340 --> 00:16:39.980 lived in the Capitol and was at the White House. 00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:42.360 And I was appalled by all of that. But if you 00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:44.639 have a Zen practice and you're contemplative 00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:46.980 and you're practicing nonviolence, well, then 00:16:46.980 --> 00:16:49.899 I guess you can do anything. Even deep listen 00:16:49.899 --> 00:16:54.200 to that poor guy in Indianapolis. But curiosity 00:16:54.200 --> 00:16:59.940 is a really important practice these days. Oh, 00:16:59.940 --> 00:17:02.799 and it's totally missing. Totally missing. We 00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:05.740 just judge each other. We're so self -righteous. 00:17:05.759 --> 00:17:09.240 We're so blind. As opposed to going, what are 00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:12.839 you going through? And then you often find people 00:17:12.839 --> 00:17:15.519 start crying because no one cares. No one says 00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:17.539 anything. Can you say a little more about that? 00:17:19.649 --> 00:17:24.690 Well, I think the piece that I've learned in 00:17:24.690 --> 00:17:28.670 To Be Curious means I have to be grounded myself. 00:17:29.289 --> 00:17:32.009 I have to be comfortable with myself that I can 00:17:32.009 --> 00:17:36.309 open myself to other people. And then to ask 00:17:36.309 --> 00:17:41.970 the questions. To be... See, some people ask 00:17:41.970 --> 00:17:44.250 questions and they just are waiting to get in 00:17:44.250 --> 00:17:46.069 their points. They ask you a question, but they 00:17:46.069 --> 00:17:48.089 don't really read it. I'm sure you've met some 00:17:48.089 --> 00:17:52.589 folks like that. I do that a lot myself. I can 00:17:52.589 --> 00:17:56.549 recognize that. But Holy Curiosity is really 00:17:56.549 --> 00:18:00.589 about wanting to learn about the other, having 00:18:00.589 --> 00:18:07.930 care, and taking it in. Not for the purpose of 00:18:07.930 --> 00:18:10.390 inserting myself in, but... for the purpose of 00:18:10.390 --> 00:18:14.130 understanding another point of view. And it really 00:18:14.130 --> 00:18:17.569 is a sacred thing to meet another person in that 00:18:17.569 --> 00:18:21.490 way. And when you look at the Gospels, the Gospels 00:18:21.490 --> 00:18:24.549 are full of Jesus's curiosity. And what do you 00:18:24.549 --> 00:18:27.730 ask? What do you want? What do you need? And 00:18:27.730 --> 00:18:33.009 it's that invitation is what I think creates 00:18:33.009 --> 00:18:39.009 the weaving of community. That is critically 00:18:39.009 --> 00:18:41.549 necessary if we're going to make change in our 00:18:41.549 --> 00:18:44.150 society. That is so beautiful, Simone. Okay, 00:18:44.230 --> 00:18:47.529 let me go back and ask you some of the questions 00:18:47.529 --> 00:18:51.470 from your journey. So tell us about yourself 00:18:51.470 --> 00:18:55.430 and your community, but how did you become such 00:18:55.430 --> 00:18:57.930 a strong public advocate and voice for justice? 00:18:58.410 --> 00:19:01.069 And I mean, you can talk a little bit about your 00:19:01.069 --> 00:19:03.470 great work in Oakland and then going to D .C., 00:19:03.470 --> 00:19:05.170 but the next question will be about network. 00:19:06.259 --> 00:19:12.240 Okay. Wow. What happened? What happened? How 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:14.799 did this happen? How did a nice girl like you... 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:17.940 Yeah, where did you go wrong? You had so much 00:19:17.940 --> 00:19:21.579 potential. Yeah, right. I could have been a contender. 00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:25.500 Well, let's see. I grew up in Southern California. 00:19:25.779 --> 00:19:29.279 So I was born in Santa Monica. I grew up in Long 00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:35.930 Beach. And my sister and I in... the late 50s, 00:19:35.930 --> 00:19:41.930 early 60s, saw on the television all about the 00:19:41.930 --> 00:19:46.250 civil rights fights. And I will never forget 00:19:46.250 --> 00:19:51.849 seeing the kids in Birmingham being hosed down 00:19:51.849 --> 00:19:56.509 with these water, the fire hoses, and attacked 00:19:56.509 --> 00:20:01.640 by dogs. My sister was a year and a half younger 00:20:01.640 --> 00:20:04.920 than I am, and we were both horrified but also 00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:07.940 motivated that if kids in Birmingham were standing 00:20:07.940 --> 00:20:10.799 up, we needed to stand up in some way. But I 00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:12.700 lived in Southern California, not the South. 00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:21.380 And so for me, it was about the gospel. And Jesus, 00:20:21.460 --> 00:20:24.440 we're always about justice. I joke now saying, 00:20:24.599 --> 00:20:26.920 you know, well, obviously, because both Jesus 00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:29.119 and justice, they both begin with J. They're 00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:34.140 obviously connected. But the thing for me was 00:20:34.140 --> 00:20:38.539 needing to be involved to make our society better. 00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:41.940 And my sister and I had gone to camp and met 00:20:41.940 --> 00:20:45.279 our sisters, Sisters of Social Service. We were 00:20:45.279 --> 00:20:49.799 in the camp. And I loved what the sisters did. 00:20:49.880 --> 00:20:53.940 We didn't have, you know, habits. We had, you 00:20:53.940 --> 00:20:57.119 know, gray street length dresses. We were doing 00:20:57.119 --> 00:20:59.359 social work. We weren't teaching or nursing. 00:20:59.460 --> 00:21:02.220 We were out and about. We drove cars. We were 00:21:02.220 --> 00:21:08.140 engaged. And when I was a senior in high school 00:21:08.140 --> 00:21:11.579 and my sister was a sophomore, she was diagnosed 00:21:11.579 --> 00:21:14.160 with Hodgkin's disease and given three to five 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:21.380 years to live. And that put, you know, a sense 00:21:21.380 --> 00:21:24.940 of urgency for me that life is short. You got 00:21:24.940 --> 00:21:30.039 to get about it. And I've come to realize my 00:21:30.039 --> 00:21:34.779 sister ended up, I entered the community the 00:21:34.779 --> 00:21:40.109 summer after my freshman year in college. And 00:21:40.109 --> 00:21:42.789 I know now that part of the reason I did it was 00:21:42.789 --> 00:21:49.869 because of Kate's diagnosis and her limited life 00:21:49.869 --> 00:21:53.390 expectancy. That life was fragile, it wasn't 00:21:53.390 --> 00:21:56.210 going to last. And that we needed to be urgent 00:21:56.210 --> 00:21:59.410 about getting about it. And then after she died, 00:21:59.450 --> 00:22:07.589 she died after five years. And I now think... 00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:11.680 In some ways, I picked up her spirit and carry 00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:16.160 it along with my own. And so that part of the 00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:20.900 shared, I mean, we continue this shared commitment 00:22:20.900 --> 00:22:25.079 that we had as young kids. And it's just different. 00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:28.079 It's just different. But that's part of the reason 00:22:28.079 --> 00:22:33.200 that I'm a determined woman that I am. That's 00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:36.980 so beautiful. Yeah, thank you. And that led you 00:22:36.980 --> 00:22:41.019 then to Oakland. Right. Well, I entered a social 00:22:41.019 --> 00:22:43.039 work community and then I discovered I wasn't 00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:45.200 a very good social worker. That was a problem. 00:22:46.640 --> 00:22:51.859 So I wanted to do public policy. And at the time 00:22:51.859 --> 00:22:55.380 I was drawn to law. And so I went to law school 00:22:55.380 --> 00:22:59.279 at the University of California, Davis. And but 00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:01.759 while I was at Davis, I discovered I like practicing 00:23:01.759 --> 00:23:09.240 law. So after law school. During my last semester 00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:12.059 of law school, I did an independent study project 00:23:12.059 --> 00:23:16.220 to do a design for a law center that would serve 00:23:16.220 --> 00:23:18.740 the working poor, folks who didn't qualify for 00:23:18.740 --> 00:23:21.220 legal aid but couldn't afford private counsel. 00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:26.619 And so that's what I set up in Oakland in what 00:23:26.619 --> 00:23:30.440 we call the telephone closet in our house. And 00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:33.920 that was where our first office. And then I used 00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:36.519 the Royal We a lot because it was just me and 00:23:36.519 --> 00:23:41.420 it sounded better if it was we. And then Sister 00:23:41.420 --> 00:23:43.920 of St. Joseph Condolet joined me after a few 00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:46.880 months as a paralegal. And after a year, we had 00:23:46.880 --> 00:23:48.740 enough money, we could get a law office downtown. 00:23:48.819 --> 00:23:52.470 But our whole work was to... provide services 00:23:52.470 --> 00:23:55.710 to folks who otherwise wouldn't have access to 00:23:55.710 --> 00:23:58.289 legal services. And we ended up doing all the 00:23:58.289 --> 00:24:00.829 high conflict, low income family law cases in 00:24:00.829 --> 00:24:03.890 our county. And it was fabulous. I loved it. 00:24:03.910 --> 00:24:09.089 It was great. And so one of the things it taught 00:24:09.089 --> 00:24:13.769 me was on a crowded court calendar, you had to 00:24:13.769 --> 00:24:17.789 very succinctly make your pitch. to get the judge's 00:24:17.789 --> 00:24:19.930 attention and get the judge to rule your way. 00:24:20.210 --> 00:24:22.549 And so I got pretty good at doing that, which 00:24:22.549 --> 00:24:26.509 later I realized when I was here in D .C., oh, 00:24:26.650 --> 00:24:28.829 that makes me pretty good on the media, that 00:24:28.829 --> 00:24:33.210 it translates from having to be succinct, persuasive, 00:24:33.210 --> 00:24:38.190 and concise, you know, just really hone in on 00:24:38.190 --> 00:24:43.329 the key argument is good for media work as well 00:24:43.329 --> 00:24:46.380 as in the courtroom. Oh, that's great. So then 00:24:46.380 --> 00:24:49.819 you went to Network. And tell me about your transition 00:24:49.819 --> 00:24:53.240 there and your years leading Network as one of 00:24:53.240 --> 00:24:56.000 the great groups in the country and that leading 00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:59.940 up to... The Affordable Care Act. I know we could 00:24:59.940 --> 00:25:02.539 talk all day about that, but just briefly give 00:25:02.539 --> 00:25:05.119 me a little overview. I'm sorry to ask such a 00:25:05.119 --> 00:25:08.420 big question, but we'll help everybody. You can 00:25:08.420 --> 00:25:11.900 be concise, you just said. I know, I can be concise. 00:25:12.259 --> 00:25:15.880 So after 18 years at the law center, it was like 00:25:15.880 --> 00:25:18.039 my child and it wasn't going away to college. 00:25:18.140 --> 00:25:22.400 So I needed to leave. And because I believe organizations 00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:26.460 need new leadership. So I handed off the leadership 00:25:26.460 --> 00:25:29.500 to my law partners. We had grown to be six lawyers, 00:25:29.740 --> 00:25:33.779 six paralegals, a variety of other folks. And 00:25:33.779 --> 00:25:36.880 so then I got elected to be the head of my community. 00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:39.539 So I did that for five years. And then after 00:25:39.539 --> 00:25:42.779 that, you can tell I'm getting really old. After 00:25:42.779 --> 00:25:50.240 that, then I then went to Sacramento to lead 00:25:50.240 --> 00:25:52.140 an organization that was started by one of my 00:25:52.140 --> 00:25:58.950 sisters. to do state policy. I got recruited 00:25:58.950 --> 00:26:01.750 to apply for the network job after doing state 00:26:01.750 --> 00:26:06.250 policy for two years. And it was the best preparation 00:26:06.250 --> 00:26:12.069 ever because I saw how all of these legislative 00:26:12.069 --> 00:26:15.329 issues worked at the state level and then came 00:26:15.329 --> 00:26:19.690 to D .C. to see the national impact. It was really 00:26:19.690 --> 00:26:22.859 perfect. training ground to come to Network. 00:26:23.720 --> 00:26:26.559 So Network is this organization that's now over 00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:32.440 50 years old. When I came, it was 30 -some. And 00:26:32.440 --> 00:26:38.359 it was founded by Catholic Sisters in 1972 to 00:26:38.359 --> 00:26:43.660 not be a new organization, but to be a network 00:26:43.660 --> 00:26:46.680 of Catholic Sisters around the country to do 00:26:46.680 --> 00:26:50.240 advocacy. That was the idea behind it. And then... 00:26:50.779 --> 00:26:54.859 And we worked on all kinds of economic justice 00:26:54.859 --> 00:26:58.299 issues, principally environmental justice issues, 00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:06.220 and worked to be the voice or to bring voices 00:27:06.220 --> 00:27:10.579 from outside D .C. so that real life people might 00:27:10.579 --> 00:27:14.319 inform legislation. What a radical thought. So 00:27:14.319 --> 00:27:24.480 that was what. Got me there. So there's like 00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:29.779 two parts. I came in 04, between 04 and 2010 00:27:29.779 --> 00:27:34.140 when the Affordable Care Act passed. It was a 00:27:34.140 --> 00:27:39.359 small organization. We had people all over, mostly 00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:44.420 nuns. And we were gradually building, getting 00:27:44.420 --> 00:27:49.279 more non -nuns. as we would say, as members. 00:27:49.940 --> 00:27:54.980 But then in 2010, we had worked on healthcare 00:27:54.980 --> 00:27:57.880 issues since the very beginning. The very first 00:27:57.880 --> 00:28:02.359 issue of a news brief that Network sent out was 00:28:02.359 --> 00:28:05.019 on healthcare. So we had been working on this 00:28:05.019 --> 00:28:09.420 issue of healthcare for years, decades. And so 00:28:09.420 --> 00:28:15.859 we were knee -deep in working on the weeds of... 00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:21.720 That Senate bill, the House bill, how the Senate 00:28:21.720 --> 00:28:28.599 bill didn't have some of the economic benefits 00:28:28.599 --> 00:28:34.380 that the House bill did. But this could go, you 00:28:34.380 --> 00:28:36.700 don't want all of this. But anyway, so we were 00:28:36.700 --> 00:28:43.380 knee deep in the weeds of it and got to be involved. 00:28:43.480 --> 00:28:45.980 It was going to come up for. Well, it got complicated 00:28:45.980 --> 00:28:53.099 because the Senate had a super majority of Democrats 00:28:53.099 --> 00:28:57.700 until, unfortunately, Senator Kennedy died. And 00:28:57.700 --> 00:29:00.039 then they had an election in Massachusetts, and 00:29:00.039 --> 00:29:04.619 Massachusetts elected a Republican in January 00:29:04.619 --> 00:29:12.160 of 2010. Everything changed. Wow, I forgot that. 00:29:12.359 --> 00:29:16.019 Yeah, the only way that a bill was going to get 00:29:16.019 --> 00:29:18.420 passed was if the House passed the Senate bill. 00:29:19.140 --> 00:29:25.720 Because, what was his name, Scott? I forgot his 00:29:25.720 --> 00:29:30.000 name. He ran for the Senate on the idea that, 00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:33.019 you know, he wouldn't vote for any health care 00:29:33.019 --> 00:29:37.150 bill. The absurd thing was the Affordable Care 00:29:37.150 --> 00:29:41.190 Act is modeled on what Romney, Governor Romney 00:29:41.190 --> 00:29:44.569 in Massachusetts, had started as the Republican 00:29:44.569 --> 00:29:48.089 health care model. And the reason the silly Republicans 00:29:48.089 --> 00:29:49.869 could never, you know, they were always saying 00:29:49.869 --> 00:29:52.710 repeal and replace. Well, they didn't have any 00:29:52.710 --> 00:29:56.609 other model because the Democrats had taken their 00:29:56.609 --> 00:30:00.789 model in order to try to get collaboration across 00:30:00.789 --> 00:30:04.190 the aisle. That didn't work. But the Republicans 00:30:04.190 --> 00:30:08.490 were such oppositional people that they couldn't 00:30:08.490 --> 00:30:12.289 possibly say, the Democrats took our model. Yes, 00:30:12.329 --> 00:30:14.109 we think it's fine. We're declaring victory. 00:30:14.670 --> 00:30:20.009 They had to be oppositional. So what happened 00:30:20.009 --> 00:30:24.890 was, let's see, Sister Carol Keehan from the 00:30:24.890 --> 00:30:28.630 Catholic Health Association wrote a letter in 00:30:28.630 --> 00:30:33.220 support of the Senate bill. I see Carol's letter 00:30:33.220 --> 00:30:36.500 and I email her saying, we stand with you and 00:30:36.500 --> 00:30:41.099 we'll do a letter in support and we'll stand 00:30:41.099 --> 00:30:43.039 with you when the bishops, because the bishops 00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:46.240 didn't like it because their staff was very conservative. 00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:53.259 So then Carol said, oh, you know, the bishops 00:30:53.259 --> 00:30:55.880 will be okay, but the staff will be upset. Well, 00:30:55.900 --> 00:30:58.440 Carol's not very good at predicting responses. 00:30:58.619 --> 00:31:03.849 But anyway. So what happened was Carol's letter 00:31:03.849 --> 00:31:06.130 came out, I think it was on like a Friday night 00:31:06.130 --> 00:31:11.250 or a Saturday. I wrote a letter that Saturday 00:31:11.250 --> 00:31:13.910 and sent it around to my leadership friends in 00:31:13.910 --> 00:31:16.670 religious congregations asking them to sign on. 00:31:17.390 --> 00:31:21.990 And then on Monday, the bishops conference came 00:31:21.990 --> 00:31:24.609 out opposing the bill, alleging that there was 00:31:24.609 --> 00:31:26.869 federal funding of abortion in the Affordable 00:31:26.869 --> 00:31:29.700 Care Act, which there is not. In fact, it says 00:31:29.700 --> 00:31:31.799 in three different places, no federal funding 00:31:31.799 --> 00:31:35.819 of abortion. But the bishop's staff basically 00:31:35.819 --> 00:31:41.960 lied to the bishops. And then, so then what happened? 00:31:42.019 --> 00:31:45.440 So that was Monday. I get back from being in 00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:51.859 L .A. And on Wednesday, we released our letter. 00:31:51.940 --> 00:31:55.880 I was so proud of sisters. 58 Catholic sisters, 00:31:56.220 --> 00:31:59.000 leadership. leaders in their religious communities 00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:06.440 signed our letter. It was huge. And I know everybody 00:32:06.440 --> 00:32:09.799 here in D .C. knows we got the Affordable Care 00:32:09.799 --> 00:32:12.339 Act because of the nun's letter. It needed all 00:32:12.339 --> 00:32:15.819 the other support, but that was the tipping point. 00:32:15.819 --> 00:32:17.920 That was the tipping point. So great. Thank you 00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:21.279 so much, Simone. Now that leads us, I know we 00:32:21.279 --> 00:32:24.519 just got... Not too much time left, but nuns 00:32:24.519 --> 00:32:28.079 on the bus. I remember. I don't know. It's too 00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:30.640 much. No, I know it's too much, but you can do 00:32:30.640 --> 00:32:32.660 it because you're an expert at being concise. 00:32:32.779 --> 00:32:36.180 I'm sorry. Succinct. I'm a smart aleck. But I 00:32:36.180 --> 00:32:38.799 have to say to you, I remember I was doing a 00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:42.119 press thing on nonviolence at the National Press 00:32:42.119 --> 00:32:44.380 Cup with some activist friends, including my 00:32:44.380 --> 00:32:47.319 friend Marie Dennis. And she said, yeah, Marie 00:32:47.319 --> 00:32:49.960 said, come on, I'm going to see Simone. The nuns 00:32:49.960 --> 00:32:53.369 on the bus are at the Capitol. And that was when 00:32:53.369 --> 00:32:55.289 I met you. You probably don't even remember it. 00:32:55.309 --> 00:32:58.529 But I have to say. I was actually impressed with 00:32:58.529 --> 00:33:02.690 the bus. Wasn't it amazing? I mean, if people 00:33:02.690 --> 00:33:04.529 don't know what we're talking about, I've met 00:33:04.529 --> 00:33:07.890 a lot of rock stars. This was like a Bono or 00:33:07.890 --> 00:33:10.569 a Paul McCartney bus. Don't think school bus. 00:33:10.710 --> 00:33:12.769 When these nuns have a bus, they're talking, 00:33:12.950 --> 00:33:16.410 you know, there's a living room, there's a full 00:33:16.410 --> 00:33:20.390 -on kitchen. Anyway, no wonder the country didn't 00:33:20.390 --> 00:33:22.630 stand a chance when you took to the road. That 00:33:22.630 --> 00:33:25.730 was great. What were you thinking? How did it 00:33:25.730 --> 00:33:28.380 start? And what's happening with it now? And 00:33:28.380 --> 00:33:31.519 if it's not going on now, is there any chance 00:33:31.519 --> 00:33:33.519 that we could bring it back? Because, gosh, we 00:33:33.519 --> 00:33:37.259 need that. We need something. Let's see. OK, 00:33:37.400 --> 00:33:40.799 so what happened was, OK, we went on health care 00:33:40.799 --> 00:33:47.079 in 2010. In end of 2011, the Vatican starts investigating 00:33:47.079 --> 00:33:50.640 Catholic sisters. Oh, right. Gosh. And then in 00:33:50.640 --> 00:33:55.690 2012. They issued the censure of the Leadership 00:33:55.690 --> 00:34:00.650 Conference of Women Religious. And they said 00:34:00.650 --> 00:34:02.789 that network, they called out our organization, 00:34:03.029 --> 00:34:06.589 who at the time had nine full -time staff. Nine. 00:34:06.930 --> 00:34:09.949 And we made the Vatican nervous. They called 00:34:09.949 --> 00:34:12.449 us out as being a bad influence on Catholic Sisters 00:34:12.449 --> 00:34:17.170 because we promoted radical feminist themes incompatible 00:34:17.170 --> 00:34:21.179 with the gospel. It was like... Liar, liar, pants 00:34:21.179 --> 00:34:27.639 on fire. Everybody was so upset, so distraught. 00:34:27.820 --> 00:34:30.739 So I learned community organizing. So I went 00:34:30.739 --> 00:34:32.559 around and talked to everybody and tried to get 00:34:32.559 --> 00:34:34.619 their feedback on what was going on and all this. 00:34:34.940 --> 00:34:38.699 And then we convened a meeting at our little 00:34:38.699 --> 00:34:41.659 conference room at Network. And we had like 35 00:34:41.659 --> 00:34:48.719 secular folks come help us to figure out what 00:34:48.719 --> 00:34:52.699 to do. And it was Pentecost. It was Pentecost. 00:34:52.739 --> 00:34:55.460 Because whatever happens at the end of an hour 00:34:55.460 --> 00:34:58.079 and a half meeting, usually not much. But at 00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:00.599 the end of this hour and a half meeting, we were 00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:02.800 going on the road. We were pushing back against 00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:05.260 the Ryan budget. We were lifting up the works 00:35:05.260 --> 00:35:08.260 of Catholic Sisters. And we were saying, this 00:35:08.260 --> 00:35:11.599 is what our nation needs, is to care for each 00:35:11.599 --> 00:35:17.070 other. It was magic. I had no idea what we were 00:35:17.070 --> 00:35:19.929 doing. But I said we couldn't go public until 00:35:19.929 --> 00:35:24.690 we had the money raised. Well, God, we had the 00:35:24.690 --> 00:35:27.269 money raised in 10 days. It was like, oh, my 00:35:27.269 --> 00:35:30.909 God, I guess we have to do it. We had no knowledge 00:35:30.909 --> 00:35:34.909 of what we were doing. Wow. It was God. It's 00:35:34.909 --> 00:35:37.030 totally Pentecost. It was the Holy Spirit. It 00:35:37.030 --> 00:35:39.869 was totally the Holy Spirit. Wow. That's fantastic. 00:35:41.480 --> 00:35:43.780 I'm wondering if we could just end with one last 00:35:43.780 --> 00:35:48.300 question. Again, for the listeners, Simone, just 00:35:48.300 --> 00:35:52.019 any advice, encouragement you'd have, number 00:35:52.019 --> 00:35:54.780 one, for their journey to become advocates for 00:35:54.780 --> 00:35:57.639 justice and to stand up publicly. We're going 00:35:57.639 --> 00:36:00.059 to get in the next session on your book. But 00:36:00.059 --> 00:36:04.440 just for this session, any closing words of encouragement 00:36:04.440 --> 00:36:06.880 for people around the country and the world as 00:36:06.880 --> 00:36:09.820 we look at what's happening that you might give 00:36:09.820 --> 00:36:14.139 them? Oh, my heavens. We need everyone. We need 00:36:14.139 --> 00:36:18.280 everyone involved. But the question is, what 00:36:18.280 --> 00:36:21.179 is your piece to do? And that's where prayer, 00:36:21.219 --> 00:36:23.980 where meditation becomes so important. Listen 00:36:23.980 --> 00:36:27.280 to the wee small voice inside of what is your 00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:30.380 piece to do. Everyone has a piece that needs 00:36:30.380 --> 00:36:33.860 doing in this time. What's yours? Listen for 00:36:33.860 --> 00:36:37.400 it and then act on it. That's wonderful. Well, 00:36:37.480 --> 00:36:39.579 we'll start up with that when we come back next 00:36:39.579 --> 00:36:44.090 week. So thank you so much, Sister Simone Campbell, 00:36:44.150 --> 00:36:46.510 and I'm so glad we have a... a part two coming 00:36:46.510 --> 00:36:49.829 up next week so we can continue this. And thank 00:36:49.829 --> 00:36:51.710 you, friends, for listening to the Nonviolent 00:36:51.710 --> 00:36:54.949 Jesus podcast. You can hear more podcasts and 00:36:54.949 --> 00:36:58.730 find other upcoming Zoom programs at BeatitudeCenter 00:36:58.730 --> 00:37:02.329 .org. Please consider offering a donation to 00:37:02.329 --> 00:37:05.030 support this free work. And if you can, please 00:37:05.030 --> 00:37:08.170 leave some positive feedback or review. You could 00:37:08.170 --> 00:37:11.650 write a letter to the editor about the Nonviolent 00:37:11.650 --> 00:37:14.090 Jesus podcast to the National Catholic Reporter. 00:37:14.920 --> 00:37:17.000 where this is posted on the homepage every Monday 00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:20.019 morning. You can also find us and write a review 00:37:20.019 --> 00:37:23.039 on Apple or Spotify or YouTube or whatever platform 00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:26.400 you use. But mainly, friends, please help spread 00:37:26.400 --> 00:37:29.699 the word about the podcast by telling everybody 00:37:29.699 --> 00:37:32.519 you know everywhere to listen in. May the God 00:37:32.519 --> 00:37:35.280 of peace bless you all. Keep on following the 00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:37.559 nonviolent Jesus. See you next time.