Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm
John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking
with legendary social justice activist, Sister
Simone Campbell. This is a project of www .beatitudescenter
.org, where you can find many other podcasts
and regular Zoom programs on the nonviolence
of Jesus and practicing nonviolence and working
for a more just, more nonviolent world. So let's
begin with a little prayer, as I always like
to do. And so I invite all our listeners, wherever
you are, just to take a deep breath, just to
relax and recenter yourself. And together, let's
enter into the presence of the God of peace who
loves you infinitely and personally and everyone
everywhere, too. And we welcome the nonviolent
Jesus with us and his spirit. And just ask for
the grace to follow the nonviolent Jesus more
faithfully and to do God's will. Beloved God
of peace, thank you for all the blessings of
life, love, and peace that you give us. Be with
us now as we reflect together with Sister Simone
on your call to follow the nonviolent Jesus and
to work for justice and peace and disarmament
and creation. Bless us, inspire us, disarm us,
strengthen us, heal us, and send us out to do
your will that we might do our part. to help
end poverty, injustice, racism, greed, and war,
genocide, fascism, nuclear weapons, and environmental
destruction, that we might be your holy beatitude
people, your holy peacemakers, and welcome your
reign of universal love, nonviolence, and peace
on earth. In Jesus' name, amen. Well, friends,
it's a great pleasure to welcome Sister Simone
Campbell, one of the strongest voices and leaders.
and organizers for social and economic justice
in the U .S. This is part one of a two -part
conversation we're going to have. A Roman Catholic
sister of social service. Sister Simone is a
religious leader, attorney, author, and recipient
of the 2022 Presidential Medal of Freedom. She
has extensive experience in public policy based
on her work with people at the economic margins.
She's currently an Emerson elder with the Emerson
Collective focusing on political healing. For
17 years, she was the executive director of NETWORK,
the National Catholic Lobby for Social Justice,
based out of Washington, D .C., and the leader
of Nuns on the Bus. Her health care policy work
was critical in the passing of the Affordable
Care Act, or Obamacare. Before that, she spent
18 years working at the Oakland Community Law
Center, which she founded. She's also served
as the leader of her religious community and
now serves on their governing councils. Her two
award -winning books are A Nun on the Bus and
Hunger for Hope. And you can learn much more
about her online. Sister Simone Campbell, welcome
to the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. Great to be
with you. I'm so happy that you're here and you've
worked so hard over many decades for basic social
justice here in the U .S., most famously for
the Affordable Care Act. And I thank you on behalf
of everybody for your lifelong work and the inspiration
you've been. But right now, today, on every front,
we're under attack from the Trump administration,
which is systematically... Cutting anything that
serves basic social and economic justice from
health care, housing, education, and equality
to getting rid of voting rights, civil rights,
human rights, while continuing to promote war
and military spending, threatening the world
with nuclear weapons, and dismantling any and
all progress toward environmental justice and
sustainability. So we're moving, as you know
so well, Simone, into full -blown authoritarianism,
fascism, white supremacy, really tyranny, as
the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
warned, and witnessing the end of democracy.
So I thought we should just dive right into the
deep end and start talking about all that's happening.
And we've got time. So however you want to...
What is your take on all this, and how do you
see what's happening? Well, I think one of the
biggest, well, I don't know the biggest problem,
but a key problem is the loss of a Republican
Party, and that our democracy established itself
over almost 250 years with a two -party system.
It really does require for there to be a balanced
approach that allows for the flourishing of everyone,
that business be represented. And what's happened,
I think, is that business, because it is not
nationally bound anymore, has much less interest
in national politics except for the... the purpose
of tariffs and taxes. But business leaders are
not aligned in a particular party at this point.
So the Republican Party lost its reason for being.
The Democratic Party, on the other hand, has
become trying to create the big tent, has created
such a huge tent. that everyone's afraid of conflict.
And so, because you've got to accept everybody.
Everybody needs to be accepted. I basically believe
that. But conflict is required in order to clarify
ideas, focus action, and be engaged. And I think
sometimes we can mistake nonviolence for non
-conflict, for just go along to get along. And
what for me is at the heart of our work is a
sense of seeking policies that benefit the 100%,
that benefit everyone, not the few. And so that
is a work that I think we have lost some. of
politically progressives have lost some of their
capacity for compromise, for coming together,
trying to find a common way forward. And so the
absence of a Republican Party, in many ways paralysis
of a more progressive view, then leaves us victims
ready to be victimized by this. current expression
of authoritarianism, fascism, and to be enamored
of the, dare I say, the gold or glamour that
goes with this current presidency. So there's
change that needs to happen in a lot of different
areas if we're going to save this democracy.
But the first thing is that I think is most important
at this moment is we have to learn to talk to
each other and find best practices, best ways
forward, willingness to give and take a bit.
But we have to be engaged. And right now, because
of the overwhelming craziness. My experience
is most people are just back and away, back and
away. I'm going to stay quietly in my little
house or my little hole. And I'll poke my head
out when things are a little safer, but it's
not now. So we've got a lot of work to do. Wow,
that was so helpful and not what I expected.
You really diagnosed the situation, I think,
in a very helpful and obvious way. But you did
bring up the word nonviolence, which you know
is at the heart of much of my work. So let's
just stay with that for a moment. I totally see
that with you, that a lot of people are backing
down. They're overwhelmed. They're just trying
to get by, and they feel very powerless and hopeless.
But that's not nonviolence. Like, let's say Gandhi
or Dr. King or Dorothy Day, not to mention Jesus,
would show. And you talked about engagement and
not being afraid of conflict, but just not being
violent. And that's been a lot of your work as
a leading lobbyist for progressive ideals and
policies on the Hill for all these decades. Can
you give people some concrete suggestions about
how to be engaged and how to remain nonviolent
at the local level and, you know, maybe why they
should stand up and get involved? I always say
the only way change will happen is bottom -up
people power movements. And we have to be part
of that. But you tell it to me, explain it to
me. What concrete advice along those lines would
you have? To help us get out of ourselves, out
of the hole, you know? Well, I think it starts
with a contemplative practice, quite frankly.
I mean, this is how it works for me. A contemplative
practice, which is about listening, deep listening
to the needs of the time and just being present
and then acting on. on what I hear. And what
it has led me to is what I call holy curiosity.
Holy curiosity is wanting to understand the other.
How did you get here? What matters? Why do you
care about this? And then after engaging the
other to hear their story, well, do you know
about this story? Do you know about, can I tell
you about? Somebody I've met. And using curiosity
and then sharing stories has been a tremendous
both motivator and also an effective advocacy
tool because it builds community. It builds connections.
And in a sense, what we try to do in advocacy
is to do the best for the broader community.
And that's the, if you saw my hands waving around,
you'd probably understand this better. But it's
understanding the other, but understanding the
other then becomes an invitation to introduce
somebody else to the conversation. Let me give
you an example. I was in Indianapolis. This was
a while ago. It was actually. before the first
Trump term. And I met this guy who was a worker,
kind of a, you know, kind of not heavy set, muscular,
big shoulders, had done manual work, had been
really, you know, was a worker. He was an assembly
line kind of guy. He'd worked hard all his life.
And he was so for Trump. And so I tried to...
find out what was going on with him. How come?
How come he was for Trump? And he said, whoa,
whoa. And then he goes off on that his parents
had always told him, if you worked hard, played
by the rules, you'd get ahead. If you worked
hard, played by the rules, you'd get ahead. And
he hadn't. He'd worked hard, he'd played by the
rules, and he hadn't gotten ahead. And what attracted
him to Trump was the anger. And his kids had
gone to college, but they hadn't been able to
get good jobs and they had to come home and they
were working at home trying to pay the college
loans. And his parents had told him if you worked
hard, played by the rules, you'd get ahead. And
as I listened to him kind of deeply trying to
hear this, I realized his parents kept entering
into this thing about what they told him. And
I said to him, Gee, it sounds to me like you
fear that you've disappointed your parents. Is
that true? And damn, he got tears in his eyes.
It was like such a surprise. But what I realized
for myself was listening to his sense, his analysis
of failure. of not measuring up, of working hard,
playing by the rules, but not getting ahead.
And his kids' struggle just left him feeling
powerless and therefore angry. And it was anger
that was drawing him, not policy. He didn't have
a clue about any of the policies. Of course,
Trump didn't have a clue about any of the policies
either, but that's a different story. But that
he was responding emotionally. And it's that
kind of emotional vulnerability that we really
don't have a way of dealing with. And the other
thing that that exchange taught me is that work
hard, play by the rules, get ahead. Well, that
certainly was true for the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s
even. But we're pretty far ahead. I mean, most
people live very good lives, but they have this
expectation that we're going to get even further
ahead. So I've been on a quest. I don't know
if this kind of fits here, I guess. I've been
on a quest for another mantra. That we work hard,
play by the rules, and we facilitate community.
It's not the individualism. I'm looking for a
way to talk about community, because that was
what was missing from his analysis. Wow, Simone,
thank you for that. A lot of what you said is
the basics of your book, Hunger for Hope, I think.
And I want to revisit most of those in the second
half. You know, I guess you began by saying,
well, the only way you could do this is by having
a contemplative practice. And that means being
nonviolent in the midst of all of this. So if
you're contemplative, you can get out of the
hole that we dig ourselves into to avoid all
this. And you can get engaged, but you'll stay
nonviolent. You know, what I have never heard,
and I don't know if it's in your book. Any Christian
talk about curiosity. But I do a lot of work
with Buddhists. And do you know that that's a
big word for them and it goes back to Buddha?
Oh. Well, yes. I didn't know that. I have had
a Zen practice. Oh, and now everything makes
sense. I don't know how you can be a lobbyist
because I did that as a kid. And I grew up in
D .C. My father was head of the press club and
lived in the Capitol and was at the White House.
And I was appalled by all of that. But if you
have a Zen practice and you're contemplative
and you're practicing nonviolence, well, then
I guess you can do anything. Even deep listen
to that poor guy in Indianapolis. But curiosity
is a really important practice these days. Oh,
and it's totally missing. Totally missing. We
just judge each other. We're so self -righteous.
We're so blind. As opposed to going, what are
you going through? And then you often find people
start crying because no one cares. No one says
anything. Can you say a little more about that?
Well, I think the piece that I've learned in
To Be Curious means I have to be grounded myself.
I have to be comfortable with myself that I can
open myself to other people. And then to ask
the questions. To be... See, some people ask
questions and they just are waiting to get in
their points. They ask you a question, but they
don't really read it. I'm sure you've met some
folks like that. I do that a lot myself. I can
recognize that. But Holy Curiosity is really
about wanting to learn about the other, having
care, and taking it in. Not for the purpose of
inserting myself in, but... for the purpose of
understanding another point of view. And it really
is a sacred thing to meet another person in that
way. And when you look at the Gospels, the Gospels
are full of Jesus's curiosity. And what do you
ask? What do you want? What do you need? And
it's that invitation is what I think creates
the weaving of community. That is critically
necessary if we're going to make change in our
society. That is so beautiful, Simone. Okay,
let me go back and ask you some of the questions
from your journey. So tell us about yourself
and your community, but how did you become such
a strong public advocate and voice for justice?
And I mean, you can talk a little bit about your
great work in Oakland and then going to D .C.,
but the next question will be about network.
Okay. Wow. What happened? What happened? How
did this happen? How did a nice girl like you...
Yeah, where did you go wrong? You had so much
potential. Yeah, right. I could have been a contender.
Well, let's see. I grew up in Southern California.
So I was born in Santa Monica. I grew up in Long
Beach. And my sister and I in... the late 50s,
early 60s, saw on the television all about the
civil rights fights. And I will never forget
seeing the kids in Birmingham being hosed down
with these water, the fire hoses, and attacked
by dogs. My sister was a year and a half younger
than I am, and we were both horrified but also
motivated that if kids in Birmingham were standing
up, we needed to stand up in some way. But I
lived in Southern California, not the South.
And so for me, it was about the gospel. And Jesus,
we're always about justice. I joke now saying,
you know, well, obviously, because both Jesus
and justice, they both begin with J. They're
obviously connected. But the thing for me was
needing to be involved to make our society better.
And my sister and I had gone to camp and met
our sisters, Sisters of Social Service. We were
in the camp. And I loved what the sisters did.
We didn't have, you know, habits. We had, you
know, gray street length dresses. We were doing
social work. We weren't teaching or nursing.
We were out and about. We drove cars. We were
engaged. And when I was a senior in high school
and my sister was a sophomore, she was diagnosed
with Hodgkin's disease and given three to five
years to live. And that put, you know, a sense
of urgency for me that life is short. You got
to get about it. And I've come to realize my
sister ended up, I entered the community the
summer after my freshman year in college. And
I know now that part of the reason I did it was
because of Kate's diagnosis and her limited life
expectancy. That life was fragile, it wasn't
going to last. And that we needed to be urgent
about getting about it. And then after she died,
she died after five years. And I now think...
In some ways, I picked up her spirit and carry
it along with my own. And so that part of the
shared, I mean, we continue this shared commitment
that we had as young kids. And it's just different.
It's just different. But that's part of the reason
that I'm a determined woman that I am. That's
so beautiful. Yeah, thank you. And that led you
then to Oakland. Right. Well, I entered a social
work community and then I discovered I wasn't
a very good social worker. That was a problem.
So I wanted to do public policy. And at the time
I was drawn to law. And so I went to law school
at the University of California, Davis. And but
while I was at Davis, I discovered I like practicing
law. So after law school. During my last semester
of law school, I did an independent study project
to do a design for a law center that would serve
the working poor, folks who didn't qualify for
legal aid but couldn't afford private counsel.
And so that's what I set up in Oakland in what
we call the telephone closet in our house. And
that was where our first office. And then I used
the Royal We a lot because it was just me and
it sounded better if it was we. And then Sister
of St. Joseph Condolet joined me after a few
months as a paralegal. And after a year, we had
enough money, we could get a law office downtown.
But our whole work was to... provide services
to folks who otherwise wouldn't have access to
legal services. And we ended up doing all the
high conflict, low income family law cases in
our county. And it was fabulous. I loved it.
It was great. And so one of the things it taught
me was on a crowded court calendar, you had to
very succinctly make your pitch. to get the judge's
attention and get the judge to rule your way.
And so I got pretty good at doing that, which
later I realized when I was here in D .C., oh,
that makes me pretty good on the media, that
it translates from having to be succinct, persuasive,
and concise, you know, just really hone in on
the key argument is good for media work as well
as in the courtroom. Oh, that's great. So then
you went to Network. And tell me about your transition
there and your years leading Network as one of
the great groups in the country and that leading
up to... The Affordable Care Act. I know we could
talk all day about that, but just briefly give
me a little overview. I'm sorry to ask such a
big question, but we'll help everybody. You can
be concise, you just said. I know, I can be concise.
So after 18 years at the law center, it was like
my child and it wasn't going away to college.
So I needed to leave. And because I believe organizations
need new leadership. So I handed off the leadership
to my law partners. We had grown to be six lawyers,
six paralegals, a variety of other folks. And
so then I got elected to be the head of my community.
So I did that for five years. And then after
that, you can tell I'm getting really old. After
that, then I then went to Sacramento to lead
an organization that was started by one of my
sisters. to do state policy. I got recruited
to apply for the network job after doing state
policy for two years. And it was the best preparation
ever because I saw how all of these legislative
issues worked at the state level and then came
to D .C. to see the national impact. It was really
perfect. training ground to come to Network.
So Network is this organization that's now over
50 years old. When I came, it was 30 -some. And
it was founded by Catholic Sisters in 1972 to
not be a new organization, but to be a network
of Catholic Sisters around the country to do
advocacy. That was the idea behind it. And then...
And we worked on all kinds of economic justice
issues, principally environmental justice issues,
and worked to be the voice or to bring voices
from outside D .C. so that real life people might
inform legislation. What a radical thought. So
that was what. Got me there. So there's like
two parts. I came in 04, between 04 and 2010
when the Affordable Care Act passed. It was a
small organization. We had people all over, mostly
nuns. And we were gradually building, getting
more non -nuns. as we would say, as members.
But then in 2010, we had worked on healthcare
issues since the very beginning. The very first
issue of a news brief that Network sent out was
on healthcare. So we had been working on this
issue of healthcare for years, decades. And so
we were knee -deep in working on the weeds of...
That Senate bill, the House bill, how the Senate
bill didn't have some of the economic benefits
that the House bill did. But this could go, you
don't want all of this. But anyway, so we were
knee deep in the weeds of it and got to be involved.
It was going to come up for. Well, it got complicated
because the Senate had a super majority of Democrats
until, unfortunately, Senator Kennedy died. And
then they had an election in Massachusetts, and
Massachusetts elected a Republican in January
of 2010. Everything changed. Wow, I forgot that.
Yeah, the only way that a bill was going to get
passed was if the House passed the Senate bill.
Because, what was his name, Scott? I forgot his
name. He ran for the Senate on the idea that,
you know, he wouldn't vote for any health care
bill. The absurd thing was the Affordable Care
Act is modeled on what Romney, Governor Romney
in Massachusetts, had started as the Republican
health care model. And the reason the silly Republicans
could never, you know, they were always saying
repeal and replace. Well, they didn't have any
other model because the Democrats had taken their
model in order to try to get collaboration across
the aisle. That didn't work. But the Republicans
were such oppositional people that they couldn't
possibly say, the Democrats took our model. Yes,
we think it's fine. We're declaring victory.
They had to be oppositional. So what happened
was, let's see, Sister Carol Keehan from the
Catholic Health Association wrote a letter in
support of the Senate bill. I see Carol's letter
and I email her saying, we stand with you and
we'll do a letter in support and we'll stand
with you when the bishops, because the bishops
didn't like it because their staff was very conservative.
So then Carol said, oh, you know, the bishops
will be okay, but the staff will be upset. Well,
Carol's not very good at predicting responses.
But anyway. So what happened was Carol's letter
came out, I think it was on like a Friday night
or a Saturday. I wrote a letter that Saturday
and sent it around to my leadership friends in
religious congregations asking them to sign on.
And then on Monday, the bishops conference came
out opposing the bill, alleging that there was
federal funding of abortion in the Affordable
Care Act, which there is not. In fact, it says
in three different places, no federal funding
of abortion. But the bishop's staff basically
lied to the bishops. And then, so then what happened?
So that was Monday. I get back from being in
L .A. And on Wednesday, we released our letter.
I was so proud of sisters. 58 Catholic sisters,
leadership. leaders in their religious communities
signed our letter. It was huge. And I know everybody
here in D .C. knows we got the Affordable Care
Act because of the nun's letter. It needed all
the other support, but that was the tipping point.
That was the tipping point. So great. Thank you
so much, Simone. Now that leads us, I know we
just got... Not too much time left, but nuns
on the bus. I remember. I don't know. It's too
much. No, I know it's too much, but you can do
it because you're an expert at being concise.
I'm sorry. Succinct. I'm a smart aleck. But I
have to say to you, I remember I was doing a
press thing on nonviolence at the National Press
Cup with some activist friends, including my
friend Marie Dennis. And she said, yeah, Marie
said, come on, I'm going to see Simone. The nuns
on the bus are at the Capitol. And that was when
I met you. You probably don't even remember it.
But I have to say. I was actually impressed with
the bus. Wasn't it amazing? I mean, if people
don't know what we're talking about, I've met
a lot of rock stars. This was like a Bono or
a Paul McCartney bus. Don't think school bus.
When these nuns have a bus, they're talking,
you know, there's a living room, there's a full
-on kitchen. Anyway, no wonder the country didn't
stand a chance when you took to the road. That
was great. What were you thinking? How did it
start? And what's happening with it now? And
if it's not going on now, is there any chance
that we could bring it back? Because, gosh, we
need that. We need something. Let's see. OK,
so what happened was, OK, we went on health care
in 2010. In end of 2011, the Vatican starts investigating
Catholic sisters. Oh, right. Gosh. And then in
2012. They issued the censure of the Leadership
Conference of Women Religious. And they said
that network, they called out our organization,
who at the time had nine full -time staff. Nine.
And we made the Vatican nervous. They called
us out as being a bad influence on Catholic Sisters
because we promoted radical feminist themes incompatible
with the gospel. It was like... Liar, liar, pants
on fire. Everybody was so upset, so distraught.
So I learned community organizing. So I went
around and talked to everybody and tried to get
their feedback on what was going on and all this.
And then we convened a meeting at our little
conference room at Network. And we had like 35
secular folks come help us to figure out what
to do. And it was Pentecost. It was Pentecost.
Because whatever happens at the end of an hour
and a half meeting, usually not much. But at
the end of this hour and a half meeting, we were
going on the road. We were pushing back against
the Ryan budget. We were lifting up the works
of Catholic Sisters. And we were saying, this
is what our nation needs, is to care for each
other. It was magic. I had no idea what we were
doing. But I said we couldn't go public until
we had the money raised. Well, God, we had the
money raised in 10 days. It was like, oh, my
God, I guess we have to do it. We had no knowledge
of what we were doing. Wow. It was God. It's
totally Pentecost. It was the Holy Spirit. It
was totally the Holy Spirit. Wow. That's fantastic.
I'm wondering if we could just end with one last
question. Again, for the listeners, Simone, just
any advice, encouragement you'd have, number
one, for their journey to become advocates for
justice and to stand up publicly. We're going
to get in the next session on your book. But
just for this session, any closing words of encouragement
for people around the country and the world as
we look at what's happening that you might give
them? Oh, my heavens. We need everyone. We need
everyone involved. But the question is, what
is your piece to do? And that's where prayer,
where meditation becomes so important. Listen
to the wee small voice inside of what is your
piece to do. Everyone has a piece that needs
doing in this time. What's yours? Listen for
it and then act on it. That's wonderful. Well,
we'll start up with that when we come back next
week. So thank you so much, Sister Simone Campbell,
and I'm so glad we have a... a part two coming
up next week so we can continue this. And thank
you, friends, for listening to the Nonviolent
Jesus podcast. You can hear more podcasts and
find other upcoming Zoom programs at BeatitudeCenter
.org. Please consider offering a donation to
support this free work. And if you can, please
leave some positive feedback or review. You could
write a letter to the editor about the Nonviolent
Jesus podcast to the National Catholic Reporter.
where this is posted on the homepage every Monday
morning. You can also find us and write a review
on Apple or Spotify or YouTube or whatever platform
you use. But mainly, friends, please help spread
the word about the podcast by telling everybody
you know everywhere to listen in. May the God
of peace bless you all. Keep on following the
nonviolent Jesus. See you next time.