WEBVTT 00:00:15.160 --> 00:00:18.039 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:18.039 --> 00:00:20.359 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:20.359 --> 00:00:23.739 with my friend John Fuglesang. This is a project 00:00:23.739 --> 00:00:27.280 of BeatitudesCenter .org, where you can find 00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:29.320 many other podcasts and regular Zoom programs 00:00:29.320 --> 00:00:32.880 on the nonviolence of Jesus and practicing nonviolence 00:00:32.880 --> 00:00:35.579 and working for a more just, more nonviolent 00:00:35.579 --> 00:00:38.740 world. So let's begin, as I always like to, with 00:00:38.740 --> 00:00:41.899 a little prayer. So I invite everyone listening, 00:00:42.060 --> 00:00:44.630 wherever you are. just to take a deep breath 00:00:44.630 --> 00:00:48.909 and just relax. Notice how you're feeling and 00:00:48.909 --> 00:00:52.890 recenter yourself again. And then together, let's 00:00:52.890 --> 00:00:55.369 all just enter into the presence of the God of 00:00:55.369 --> 00:00:58.909 peace who loves you infinitely and personally 00:00:58.909 --> 00:01:03.210 and everyone everywhere. And we welcome the nonviolent 00:01:03.210 --> 00:01:07.650 Jesus here with us. And just take a moment to 00:01:07.650 --> 00:01:09.849 ask for whatever grace we need to follow the 00:01:09.849 --> 00:01:12.349 nonviolent Jesus more faithfully and to do God's 00:01:12.349 --> 00:01:19.489 will. God of peace, thank you for all the blessings 00:01:19.489 --> 00:01:22.849 of life, love, and peace that you give us. Be 00:01:22.849 --> 00:01:25.269 with us now as we reflect together with John 00:01:25.269 --> 00:01:28.489 on your call to follow the nonviolent Jesus and 00:01:28.489 --> 00:01:31.209 work for a more just, more nonviolent world. 00:01:31.310 --> 00:01:35.670 Bless us, heal us, inspire us, disarm us, strengthen 00:01:35.670 --> 00:01:38.290 us, and send us out to do your will and to do 00:01:38.290 --> 00:01:41.890 our part to end poverty, racism, greed, injustice, 00:01:42.290 --> 00:01:45.359 war. especially nuclear weapons and environmental 00:01:45.359 --> 00:01:47.920 destruction, that we might be your beatitude 00:01:47.920 --> 00:01:51.140 people, your holy peacemakers, and welcome your 00:01:51.140 --> 00:01:54.439 reign of universal love and peace on earth. In 00:01:54.439 --> 00:01:57.599 Jesus' name, amen. Well, it's a great pleasure 00:01:57.599 --> 00:02:00.019 to welcome my friend John Fuglesang, one of our 00:02:00.019 --> 00:02:03.019 great broadcasters, comedians, and speakers. 00:02:03.599 --> 00:02:07.879 He has acted on CSI, hosted many TV shows and 00:02:07.879 --> 00:02:11.300 podcasts. Memorably, I first caught you, John, 00:02:11.439 --> 00:02:13.860 when you hosted that, I think it was a V8 show 00:02:13.860 --> 00:02:16.599 with Paul McCartney in the mid -90s. Yes, sir. 00:02:16.639 --> 00:02:19.599 And the famous last public appearance of our 00:02:19.599 --> 00:02:23.389 hero George Harrison as well. which I hope everyone 00:02:23.389 --> 00:02:25.909 watches on YouTube, because you got him talking 00:02:25.909 --> 00:02:29.009 about God and spirituality. John has debated, 00:02:29.189 --> 00:02:31.069 oh gosh, John, I don't know how you did this. 00:02:31.250 --> 00:02:35.050 He's debated Jerry Falwell and David Duke. He's 00:02:35.050 --> 00:02:37.509 been picketed by the Westboro Baptist Church. 00:02:37.870 --> 00:02:39.990 That's showing off, John. Yeah, I'm proud of 00:02:39.990 --> 00:02:41.669 that. That's like a daytime Emmy for me, sir. 00:02:44.759 --> 00:02:47.120 and hosted the—it's going to be hard for me to 00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:49.419 keep a straight face talking to you— and hosted 00:02:49.419 --> 00:02:52.520 the radio series Tell Me Everything on SiriusXM, 00:02:52.659 --> 00:02:56.719 where he even dared to interview me. He has had 00:02:56.719 --> 00:03:00.659 many appearances on MSNBC, Fox News, and CNN, 00:03:00.900 --> 00:03:03.939 and his PBS road trip film on The American Dream 00:03:03.939 --> 00:03:07.080 called Dream On was named Best Documentary at 00:03:07.080 --> 00:03:10.020 the New York Independent Film Festival. He currently 00:03:10.020 --> 00:03:12.979 hosts the John Fuglesang Podcast. I met John, 00:03:13.060 --> 00:03:14.430 I think it was seven or eight years ago. ago 00:03:14.430 --> 00:03:18.330 in Los Angeles at this big gala event to celebrate 00:03:18.330 --> 00:03:21.849 all the great folks in California who work to 00:03:21.849 --> 00:03:25.909 abolish the death penalty. And John was our emcee 00:03:25.909 --> 00:03:28.050 and the speakers were Sister Helen Prejean and 00:03:28.050 --> 00:03:30.490 Bernie Sanders and Joan Baez. What a great night. 00:03:31.289 --> 00:03:34.229 John has just published his first book, Congratulations, 00:03:35.009 --> 00:03:38.629 Separation of Church and Hate, A Sane Person's 00:03:38.629 --> 00:03:41.409 Guide to Taking Back the Bible from Fundamentalist, 00:03:41.550 --> 00:03:45.509 Fascist, and Flock -Fleecing Frauds, from Simon 00:03:45.509 --> 00:03:48.270 & Schuster. John Fugel saying, welcome to the 00:03:48.270 --> 00:03:51.210 Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. Thank you. It's such 00:03:51.210 --> 00:03:52.870 a pleasure to be here with you and with your 00:03:52.870 --> 00:03:54.849 audience. I really appreciate it. What a title, 00:03:54.909 --> 00:03:59.199 man. I love it. I think, you know, my new book 00:03:59.199 --> 00:04:02.180 coming out is called Universal Love. So I presume 00:04:02.180 --> 00:04:05.159 we're in agreement. So tell me about your book. 00:04:05.219 --> 00:04:06.960 Why did you write it? What are you hoping to 00:04:06.960 --> 00:04:09.300 convey? What's your basic message? And I hope 00:04:09.300 --> 00:04:12.860 everybody will get it and read it. Well, I bought 00:04:12.860 --> 00:04:16.379 this book for everybody who was raised Christian 00:04:16.379 --> 00:04:19.439 in America and, like me, thought that Christianity 00:04:19.439 --> 00:04:22.100 was about the stuff Christ talked about, about 00:04:22.100 --> 00:04:24.220 helping the less fortunate and forgiving our 00:04:24.220 --> 00:04:29.079 enemies, about... acting on the teachings and 00:04:29.079 --> 00:04:32.060 commandments of Jesus, whether it was for individuals 00:04:32.060 --> 00:04:35.000 and nations to care for the poor and care for 00:04:35.000 --> 00:04:37.639 the sick and welcome the stranger and be kind 00:04:37.639 --> 00:04:40.120 to prisoners, as Jesus commands in Matthew 25, 00:04:40.279 --> 00:04:42.740 whether it's Jesus, you know, commanding us to 00:04:42.740 --> 00:04:44.579 turn the other cheek and stop executing people. 00:04:44.779 --> 00:04:48.040 And when he said that only sinless people can 00:04:48.040 --> 00:04:51.300 execute and stopped in execution, the love, the 00:04:51.300 --> 00:04:55.829 empathy, the. focus on the marginalized, the 00:04:55.829 --> 00:04:59.490 focus on the least of us, and that addressing 00:04:59.490 --> 00:05:01.910 the needs of the least of us who are suffering 00:05:01.910 --> 00:05:04.889 the most is the path. Well, I grew up thinking 00:05:04.889 --> 00:05:06.949 that was what the religion was about. And then 00:05:06.949 --> 00:05:09.370 like so many, I grew up in the 80s and 90s and 00:05:09.370 --> 00:05:12.170 saw this parade of blow -dried televangelists 00:05:12.170 --> 00:05:16.490 and refried segregationists on TV, the Falwells, 00:05:16.490 --> 00:05:18.329 the Pat Robertsons, the Swaggards, who didn't 00:05:18.329 --> 00:05:20.209 talk about helping the poor. They didn't talk 00:05:20.209 --> 00:05:22.329 about welcoming the stranger. They talked about 00:05:23.019 --> 00:05:25.540 welfare queens and aids patients and feminists 00:05:25.540 --> 00:05:28.339 and people i was supposed to hate um they didn't 00:05:28.339 --> 00:05:31.180 tell me to love my enemy these fundamentalists 00:05:31.180 --> 00:05:33.980 were telling me who my enemy is which is generally 00:05:33.980 --> 00:05:37.480 a sign you're not really in a church so i i was 00:05:37.480 --> 00:05:40.899 raised by two ex -clergy my mother was a nun 00:05:40.899 --> 00:05:44.439 from the south who worked as a nurse with lepers 00:05:44.439 --> 00:05:47.540 in malawi africa my father was a franciscan brother 00:05:48.220 --> 00:05:50.240 from Brooklyn, who taught history to Catholic 00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:52.560 boys and was a big social justice, Dorothy Day, 00:05:52.660 --> 00:05:55.660 Catholic worker movement, Gandhi, MLK kind of 00:05:55.660 --> 00:05:58.540 Christian. And my father, the brother, met my 00:05:58.540 --> 00:06:00.920 mother, the sister, fell madly in love with her 00:06:00.920 --> 00:06:03.519 for like 10 years. She finally left and they 00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:06.339 got married. And, you know, I wrote this book 00:06:06.339 --> 00:06:08.740 for my parents and I wrote this book because 00:06:08.740 --> 00:06:10.639 I was tired of watching my parents' religion 00:06:10.639 --> 00:06:13.980 of love and service be mutated into this Christian 00:06:13.980 --> 00:06:17.610 nationalism, which is just about power. They 00:06:17.610 --> 00:06:19.810 don't really seem to care about the teachings 00:06:19.810 --> 00:06:22.930 of Jesus. They care about their club being on 00:06:22.930 --> 00:06:25.790 top and imposing their narrow right -wing version 00:06:25.790 --> 00:06:28.649 of Christianity on every level of society. That 00:06:28.649 --> 00:06:30.810 is the Seven Mountain Mandate. Seven Mountain 00:06:30.810 --> 00:06:34.089 Mandate fights to have right -wing Christianity 00:06:34.089 --> 00:06:36.870 put at the top, but they don't fight for any 00:06:36.870 --> 00:06:38.790 of the things Christ actually talked about. So 00:06:38.790 --> 00:06:41.089 I wrote this book as a guide for any believer, 00:06:41.230 --> 00:06:44.449 any atheist, anyone who has to deal with a fundamentalist 00:06:44.449 --> 00:06:48.160 or a Christian nationalist. and how to use the 00:06:48.160 --> 00:06:50.420 bible on the most common right -wing debate points 00:06:50.420 --> 00:06:53.579 so rather than hate them rather than fight them 00:06:53.579 --> 00:06:57.060 to let them debate god show them what jesus and 00:06:57.060 --> 00:06:59.240 god say about these divisive issues and you don't 00:06:59.240 --> 00:07:00.959 have to argue with them themselves and i find 00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:04.160 when you do that very often people might appreciate 00:07:04.160 --> 00:07:06.959 even if they don't agree with you that you took 00:07:06.959 --> 00:07:10.879 the time to meet them on scripture and meet them 00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:13.959 in their place and and honestly i really believe 00:07:13.959 --> 00:07:17.319 john that we get a lot farther showing our right 00:07:17.319 --> 00:07:20.040 -wing loved ones how Jesus was not an immigrant 00:07:20.040 --> 00:07:22.660 -hating homophobe than if we just give up and 00:07:22.660 --> 00:07:24.939 call our right -wing loved ones immigrant -hating 00:07:24.939 --> 00:07:29.079 homophobes. So I wrote the book for all the nice 00:07:29.079 --> 00:07:31.079 Christians out there who are tired of seeing 00:07:31.079 --> 00:07:33.000 the religion hijacked. Thank you. And because 00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:35.480 also, if I may, because the media is not going 00:07:35.480 --> 00:07:37.360 to take it back. The media is never going to 00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:39.819 ask tough questions. They'll never ask any of 00:07:39.819 --> 00:07:41.920 these homophobes, where does Jesus drive the 00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:44.879 gay wedding cakes out of the temple? And the 00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:48.800 Democratic Party is going to be too terrified 00:07:48.800 --> 00:07:51.500 to ever stand up and say the truth, which is 00:07:51.500 --> 00:07:54.240 there's no possible way you could follow both 00:07:54.240 --> 00:07:56.160 Donald Trump and Jesus unless you've neither 00:07:56.160 --> 00:07:58.579 read either one of their books. So it's up to 00:07:58.579 --> 00:08:01.040 us. And like all social movements of justice, 00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:03.139 it's going to come from people working together, 00:08:03.279 --> 00:08:07.259 one heart and one mind at a time. At the beginning 00:08:07.259 --> 00:08:09.319 of the book, you have that one page with the 00:08:09.319 --> 00:08:13.759 classic witty John Fuel saying line. I've come 00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:15.860 to view Jesus the way I've come to view Elvis. 00:08:16.060 --> 00:08:18.720 I love the guy, but some of the fan clubs terrify 00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:22.660 me. Tell me about that, John. Maybe this is all 00:08:22.660 --> 00:08:24.879 the same question I'm going to be asking you, 00:08:24.899 --> 00:08:27.720 just to keep unpacking it. No, well, I mean, 00:08:27.720 --> 00:08:31.120 y 'all know, you know, this is this curious kind 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:34.179 of American Christianity that believes in worshiping 00:08:34.179 --> 00:08:37.580 Jesus as a God, because that's a lot easier. 00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:41.259 than following his inconveniently liberal and 00:08:41.259 --> 00:08:44.179 woke teachings. Jesus' message is not about total 00:08:44.179 --> 00:08:46.659 right -wing domination of the local school board. 00:08:46.740 --> 00:08:48.909 It's about... picking up a cross and carrying 00:08:48.909 --> 00:08:52.090 it to follow him. It's not supposed to be easy. 00:08:52.309 --> 00:08:54.450 You're going to be taking the side of unpopular 00:08:54.450 --> 00:08:56.190 people when you've walked the path of Christ. 00:08:56.350 --> 00:08:58.210 You're going to be siding with the least of these 00:08:58.210 --> 00:08:59.990 and you're going to be judged for it. That's 00:08:59.990 --> 00:09:02.830 his message nonstop. This convenient Christianity 00:09:02.830 --> 00:09:05.649 where all I've got to do is say, I accept the 00:09:05.649 --> 00:09:07.750 Lord Jesus as my Lord and Savior and put up a 00:09:07.750 --> 00:09:10.289 tree in my house once a year. I don't see anything 00:09:10.289 --> 00:09:12.289 in the gospels that says that's how it works. 00:09:13.149 --> 00:09:18.970 And yet we've had this very cursed history of 00:09:18.970 --> 00:09:21.690 spiritual narcissism in this country. Lazy spirituality 00:09:21.690 --> 00:09:23.950 that doesn't go to Jesus, that finds anything 00:09:23.950 --> 00:09:25.629 in the Bible that tells us what we want to hear 00:09:25.629 --> 00:09:27.490 and says, well, it's in the Bible. That's good 00:09:27.490 --> 00:09:31.429 enough. And, you know, going to Leviticus or 00:09:31.429 --> 00:09:34.049 pass Jesus to Paul to justify your own prejudices 00:09:34.049 --> 00:09:36.710 is the opposite of Jesus. Trying to put your 00:09:36.710 --> 00:09:40.889 group first is the opposite of Jesus. And a lot 00:09:40.889 --> 00:09:43.389 of people in this country were raised Christian 00:09:43.389 --> 00:09:46.750 and they now consider themselves spiritual. Because 00:09:46.750 --> 00:09:49.330 they're so turned off to it. So that's who I'm 00:09:49.330 --> 00:09:53.269 talking about. And we've seen so many of us who've 00:09:53.269 --> 00:09:55.250 talked to our parents and grandparents out of 00:09:55.250 --> 00:09:57.669 so much homophobia in the last 30 years that 00:09:57.669 --> 00:10:00.490 I really do believe in so many ways, in spite 00:10:00.490 --> 00:10:02.490 of what the media and the internet make you think, 00:10:02.629 --> 00:10:05.330 I do think people are getting better. And I do 00:10:05.330 --> 00:10:07.549 think we're getting kinder. Oh, that's wonderful 00:10:07.549 --> 00:10:11.590 to hear. You know, Gandhi, I'm a big student 00:10:11.590 --> 00:10:13.929 of Gandhi, as you know, and he said the same. 00:10:14.990 --> 00:10:17.429 The same thing, only he didn't refer to Elvis. 00:10:17.750 --> 00:10:22.169 He said, I love your Christ, but I don't like 00:10:22.169 --> 00:10:24.649 your Christians because they're so unlike your 00:10:24.649 --> 00:10:27.769 Christ. And then in the next page, at the beginning 00:10:27.769 --> 00:10:30.789 of the book, you also have this one line, which 00:10:30.789 --> 00:10:33.870 was so important to Gandhi in all the letters 00:10:33.870 --> 00:10:35.870 that he wrote throughout his life, which I've 00:10:35.870 --> 00:10:38.929 studied. He was constantly referring to the last 00:10:38.929 --> 00:10:42.629 lines of the Sermon on the Mount. And he was 00:10:42.629 --> 00:10:47.750 saying, it's really a sad lament of Jesus. Why 00:10:47.750 --> 00:10:50.990 do you call me Lord, Lord, but not do what I 00:10:50.990 --> 00:10:53.850 say? And I think that's your theme of your book, 00:10:53.970 --> 00:10:58.389 John, that you're calling out to every Christian 00:10:58.389 --> 00:11:00.690 in the United States of all walks of life to 00:11:00.690 --> 00:11:05.470 say, hey, this is not working, you all, and let's 00:11:05.470 --> 00:11:08.370 try to do what the guy actually wants for a change, 00:11:08.429 --> 00:11:11.940 all of us. Tell me a little bit more about that, 00:11:11.940 --> 00:11:15.000 and in particular about how can we reclaim the 00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:17.240 Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount as the 00:11:17.240 --> 00:11:22.059 hallmark of our Christianity. I think by just, 00:11:22.200 --> 00:11:24.480 you know, if you're going to call yourself a 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:26.399 Christ follower, then you fight for the things 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:28.139 that Christ talked about, and you talk about 00:11:28.139 --> 00:11:31.000 the things that Christ talked about. When debating 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:33.600 a right -wing fundamentalist, I'm always fond 00:11:33.600 --> 00:11:36.940 of asking, can you please cite for me one actual 00:11:36.940 --> 00:11:40.899 teaching of Christ? that Donald Trump or the 00:11:40.899 --> 00:11:44.000 MAGA movement have fought for in the last 10 00:11:44.000 --> 00:11:46.259 years. Can you give me one gospel teaching of 00:11:46.259 --> 00:11:49.019 Jesus that the Republican Party has fought for 00:11:49.019 --> 00:11:52.899 in this century? And when you do this, you'll 00:11:52.899 --> 00:11:56.220 see pretty quickly how much the person you're 00:11:56.220 --> 00:11:58.740 talking to knows or does not know about scripture. 00:11:59.299 --> 00:12:02.100 You probably know this yourself. Father John, 00:12:02.200 --> 00:12:03.679 the first thing I get all the time is abortion. 00:12:04.470 --> 00:12:07.789 And I have to explain, where does Jesus speak 00:12:07.789 --> 00:12:10.710 about abortion? Christ never mentions it. We've 00:12:10.710 --> 00:12:12.690 seen two generations of Christians who have been 00:12:12.690 --> 00:12:15.450 programmed to vote against everything Jesus demands 00:12:15.450 --> 00:12:18.629 and everything Jesus talks about, all to criminalize 00:12:18.629 --> 00:12:20.970 abortion, which Jesus never talks about. The 00:12:20.970 --> 00:12:24.450 Holy Scriptures never ban abortion. Judaism doesn't 00:12:24.450 --> 00:12:26.870 ban it. It's legal and free in Israel right now 00:12:26.870 --> 00:12:29.149 because it's not banned in the Bible. God never 00:12:29.149 --> 00:12:32.799 saw fit to have a penalty. for terminating a 00:12:32.799 --> 00:12:35.200 pregnancy, never had Moses or Jesus or Elijah 00:12:35.200 --> 00:12:38.039 or any of the prophets talk about it. I'm not 00:12:38.039 --> 00:12:40.659 saying the Bible's pro -abortion rights. I'm 00:12:40.659 --> 00:12:42.460 not saying Jesus would volunteer as a clinic 00:12:42.460 --> 00:12:46.059 escort on the weekends. I'm saying that we've 00:12:46.059 --> 00:12:47.960 had two generations who have been groomed and 00:12:47.960 --> 00:12:50.639 brainwashed to prioritize something Jesus never 00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:52.960 freaking mentioned. And abortions existed in 00:12:52.960 --> 00:12:55.779 Jesus's time, never saw fit to mention it anywhere 00:12:55.779 --> 00:12:59.100 in the Bible. And yet, when you actually talk 00:12:59.100 --> 00:13:01.230 about what Christ commanded. welcome the stranger 00:13:01.230 --> 00:13:04.690 they they they call you an open borders globalist 00:13:04.690 --> 00:13:08.049 and i say you don't need to fight them let them 00:13:08.049 --> 00:13:11.529 argue with god god commands the israelites to 00:13:11.529 --> 00:13:13.470 welcome the stranger commands the hebrews to 00:13:13.470 --> 00:13:15.610 treat the alien as one of your own christ shows 00:13:15.610 --> 00:13:17.950 up in matthew 25 and says individuals and nations 00:13:17.950 --> 00:13:20.809 will be judged by how they welcome the stranger 00:13:20.809 --> 00:13:22.850 i'm not saying we shouldn't have any standards 00:13:22.850 --> 00:13:25.190 on who enters the country To me, it's all about 00:13:25.190 --> 00:13:27.789 the criminalization of migrants. I don't call 00:13:27.789 --> 00:13:29.850 them illegals. I call them Christian refugees 00:13:29.850 --> 00:13:32.389 because it's true and it upsets the right people. 00:13:32.629 --> 00:13:35.129 But go ahead and make them argue with God. Don't 00:13:35.129 --> 00:13:38.269 get angry with your xenophobic uncle at Thanksgiving. 00:13:38.370 --> 00:13:41.330 Just say, well, God says this. Jesus says this. 00:13:41.389 --> 00:13:43.470 Why should I listen to you and Donald Trump and 00:13:43.470 --> 00:13:46.009 Stephen Miller and reject the words of God and 00:13:46.009 --> 00:13:48.990 Jesus? Why are God and Jesus wrong? Let them 00:13:48.990 --> 00:13:52.120 argue with the scripture. It's wonderful. What 00:13:52.120 --> 00:13:55.299 was it like for you to, or what lessons might 00:13:55.299 --> 00:13:58.919 you offer me in my public work from your experience 00:13:58.919 --> 00:14:01.179 of actually standing up publicly and debating 00:14:01.179 --> 00:14:04.799 Jerry Falwell and David Duke, the leading racists 00:14:04.799 --> 00:14:08.740 for decades? I was terrible debating those men. 00:14:08.840 --> 00:14:11.019 I was on Bill Maher's show, and I was very young, 00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:13.620 and I was going for the laugh. I was terrible. 00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:16.080 I was going for the laugh. I was going to have 00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:17.799 the audience applaud. I was going to take down 00:14:17.799 --> 00:14:20.899 the bad guy. And it never occurred to me to actually 00:14:20.899 --> 00:14:25.740 be calm and relaxed and open hearted and talk 00:14:25.740 --> 00:14:28.200 about what's in scripture. Instead, I wanted 00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:30.220 to have a slam dunk of a racist and a fascist. 00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:32.480 And I got it and I got my applause break and 00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:35.279 I changed zero minds and zero hearts. So, you 00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:37.519 know, you're already doing it, sir. You're already 00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:39.519 doing it. Well, thank you for sharing all that. 00:14:39.580 --> 00:14:41.720 Bill Maher for years was trying to get me on 00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:44.179 a show and Bill O 'Reilly, you know, after the 00:14:44.179 --> 00:14:46.320 New York Times read about me. And I just said 00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:48.559 to myself, there's no way I'm going. I was on 00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:51.360 Hannity and Holmes. I don't remember their names 00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:54.279 once. And it went really well. And then they 00:14:54.279 --> 00:14:56.980 had me back on and brought in Catholic fundamentalists 00:14:56.980 --> 00:14:59.820 who just yelled at me the whole time saying I 00:14:59.820 --> 00:15:03.500 wasn't a priest. And I just had six masses. three 00:15:03.500 --> 00:15:06.840 parish councils and two finance committee meetings 00:15:06.840 --> 00:15:08.940 and three confirmation classes that weekend. 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:13.240 I was a wreck. So it didn't work. And I'm always 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:15.840 trying to learn. And everybody says I'm not dealing 00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:18.580 with the far right. I'm doing the best I can. 00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:20.759 And I was wondering how you did. So thanks for 00:15:20.759 --> 00:15:23.860 your honesty there. Let me ask you then about, 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:30.950 gosh, you write in the book that You use this 00:15:30.950 --> 00:15:34.730 phrase, weaponizing the Bible, and it appears 00:15:34.730 --> 00:15:36.990 a lot, I think. And you're saying that's one 00:15:36.990 --> 00:15:41.029 way to look at what people in the culture under 00:15:41.029 --> 00:15:46.110 Trump are doing these days. So what's the opposite 00:15:46.110 --> 00:15:52.730 of that? Or how can we—this is also my life's 00:15:52.730 --> 00:15:57.669 work—try to, especially in terms of the Gospels, 00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:03.100 Lift up and focus on the nonviolence of Jesus, 00:16:03.299 --> 00:16:06.159 which is universal love and truth and compassion. 00:16:06.740 --> 00:16:10.279 And, I mean, it can't be used for any violence 00:16:10.279 --> 00:16:13.360 or any harm toward anyone if you look at just 00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:16.259 the four Gospels. So tell me about what your 00:16:16.259 --> 00:16:19.139 take is on, again, a little bit even more about 00:16:19.139 --> 00:16:21.259 the use of the Bible and the misuse of it, I 00:16:21.259 --> 00:16:24.200 should say. And then if you want to say anything 00:16:24.200 --> 00:16:26.960 about what has led you to understand what I call 00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:32.120 the spectacular. nonviolence of jesus yeah um 00:16:32.120 --> 00:16:41.360 where to begin right uh it's not possible to 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:45.639 use violence in the name of jesus the crusades 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:49.659 were blasphemy the spanish inquisition was blasphemy 00:16:49.659 --> 00:16:52.700 the invasion of iraq saying that god will not 00:16:52.700 --> 00:16:55.919 be neutral and god told me to invade was blasphemy 00:16:56.859 --> 00:17:00.200 Slavery was blasphemy. You cannot claim to be 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:02.899 a Christian and do these kinds of things. And 00:17:02.899 --> 00:17:04.980 of course, your listeners are much smarter than 00:17:04.980 --> 00:17:11.880 me. They all know that already. I feel like when 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:15.240 we talk about Gandhi and nonviolence, that's 00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:17.559 the problem, right? I mean, we have to adjust. 00:17:17.660 --> 00:17:19.200 If you're going to say you're a Christ follower, 00:17:19.420 --> 00:17:21.920 you have to embrace Jesus' deeply unglamorous, 00:17:22.059 --> 00:17:25.099 deeply unsexy, deeply unsatisfying commandments. 00:17:26.200 --> 00:17:28.920 about forgiveness 70 times 7, about loving our 00:17:28.920 --> 00:17:32.180 enemies. Now, for me, there's nowhere more evident 00:17:32.180 --> 00:17:34.839 of this than the first issue that radicalized 00:17:34.839 --> 00:17:37.700 me as a kid, as a teenager, which was the death 00:17:37.700 --> 00:17:43.839 penalty. Murdering sinners, governments murdering 00:17:43.839 --> 00:17:47.200 prisoners and murdering sinners. Again, we're 00:17:47.200 --> 00:17:49.200 brainwashed to think it's not murder when the 00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:51.480 state does it. You know, the anti -government 00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:55.079 people don't call it murder when it's, you know. 00:17:55.549 --> 00:17:57.309 That big government, they hate so much doing 00:17:57.309 --> 00:18:01.230 it. But it is. And for me, Jesus is so black 00:18:01.230 --> 00:18:03.730 and white opposed to this. I mean, saying only 00:18:03.730 --> 00:18:07.250 the sinless can execute. And the scripture is 00:18:07.250 --> 00:18:09.930 right there. These people are going to try to, 00:18:09.930 --> 00:18:13.890 you know, wage war, create dominance for themselves 00:18:13.890 --> 00:18:16.549 on earth. And they're using Jesus as their camouflage. 00:18:16.789 --> 00:18:20.279 So I mainly wrote this book to be. a guide to 00:18:20.279 --> 00:18:23.220 camouflage removal, because you don't get to 00:18:23.220 --> 00:18:27.440 inflict violence to solve problems. And it's 00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:29.160 another reason why it was very strange to write 00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:31.559 this book about how to take down Christian nationalism 00:18:31.559 --> 00:18:34.799 and racism with nonviolence and humor and scripture. 00:18:35.480 --> 00:18:38.900 The same week we see somebody use a bullet to 00:18:38.900 --> 00:18:41.059 take down one of the most famous Christian nationalists 00:18:41.059 --> 00:18:44.079 and bigots in our society. And it just broke 00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:47.119 my heart, John, because I've dealt with Charlie 00:18:47.119 --> 00:18:50.349 Kirk. He came at me. I'll never claim that he 00:18:50.349 --> 00:18:55.190 was fighting for the gospel. His many, many racist 00:18:55.190 --> 00:18:58.230 statements and cruel statements are out there. 00:18:58.990 --> 00:19:01.289 I don't need to recount them all. Your listeners 00:19:01.289 --> 00:19:03.450 can Google the very real things this man said 00:19:03.450 --> 00:19:05.589 and the delight he took and the suffering and 00:19:05.589 --> 00:19:09.269 violence towards others. But on the flip side, 00:19:09.369 --> 00:19:11.690 we had so many friends on the left who were just 00:19:11.690 --> 00:19:14.450 celebrating this disgusting violence because 00:19:14.450 --> 00:19:18.230 Nazis deserve it. And how do I embrace that? 00:19:18.829 --> 00:19:21.170 I mean, I don't care how violent he was. He could 00:19:21.170 --> 00:19:22.890 have been wearing a swastika. It's an unarmed 00:19:22.890 --> 00:19:26.809 man who got murdered by a bullet and people claiming 00:19:26.809 --> 00:19:28.910 that they're liberals saying that because of 00:19:28.910 --> 00:19:31.650 his sins, because of the blackness of his heart, 00:19:31.710 --> 00:19:34.829 that he deserved to be murdered like this in 00:19:34.829 --> 00:19:36.789 front of their kids. What I've said to a lot 00:19:36.789 --> 00:19:39.509 of folks on the left, and again, we're in this 00:19:39.509 --> 00:19:41.450 really scary time when they're trying to deify 00:19:41.450 --> 00:19:45.390 this young man on the right and ignore. his true 00:19:45.390 --> 00:19:48.309 words folks on the left are pushing back about 00:19:48.309 --> 00:19:51.809 that and effectively i might add and it's depressing 00:19:51.809 --> 00:19:54.630 it may or may not be necessary they're not trying 00:19:54.630 --> 00:19:56.750 to speak ill of the dead they're trying to correct 00:19:56.750 --> 00:19:59.849 the record and not let this government pass this 00:19:59.849 --> 00:20:05.029 propaganda off but as a consequence charlie kirk's 00:20:05.029 --> 00:20:07.210 true unpleasant statements are going to follow 00:20:07.210 --> 00:20:10.690 him For all eternity. I mean, his racist statements 00:20:10.690 --> 00:20:13.130 are going to be known by so many more people 00:20:13.130 --> 00:20:15.750 now because they've been so widely circulated. 00:20:15.769 --> 00:20:17.049 There's people who never heard of Charlie Kirk 00:20:17.049 --> 00:20:19.490 five days ago, a week ago, and now they know 00:20:19.490 --> 00:20:22.589 every awful thing he ever said. And that's sad 00:20:22.589 --> 00:20:24.970 to me, that his kids are going to grow up and 00:20:24.970 --> 00:20:26.609 be told their dad was a saint, and eventually 00:20:26.609 --> 00:20:28.589 they'll get old enough to research for themselves, 00:20:28.730 --> 00:20:30.730 and they'll see the kind of things their father 00:20:30.730 --> 00:20:33.829 really fought for. And I said so many horrible, 00:20:33.890 --> 00:20:36.130 vulgar things when I was younger, John. I made 00:20:36.130 --> 00:20:38.150 so many mistakes. I said so many things that 00:20:38.150 --> 00:20:40.950 I thought was righteous and powerful and strong 00:20:40.950 --> 00:20:43.809 that were actually cruel and stupid. And I got 00:20:43.809 --> 00:20:46.230 lucky that I got to grow old and be lame. Charlie 00:20:46.230 --> 00:20:48.089 Kirk is never gonna get to grow old. He's never 00:20:48.089 --> 00:20:51.470 gonna get to lose debates, have his heart opened. 00:20:51.549 --> 00:20:53.190 He's never gonna get to have a black friend or 00:20:53.190 --> 00:20:55.789 a gay friend or a transgender friend or an immigrant 00:20:55.789 --> 00:20:58.490 friend. He's not gonna get to see Trumpism fail 00:20:58.490 --> 00:21:00.950 and be humbled by losing a lot of debates and 00:21:00.950 --> 00:21:03.170 losing his funding. He's gonna be locked in that 00:21:03.170 --> 00:21:06.269 immature place. He was so well compensated to 00:21:06.269 --> 00:21:08.630 normalize white supremacy to college students. 00:21:09.049 --> 00:21:10.910 And it's tragic. That's what he did. But it's 00:21:10.910 --> 00:21:14.450 just as tragic to me that he's never going to 00:21:14.450 --> 00:21:17.230 get a chance now to be the kind of guy who balances 00:21:17.230 --> 00:21:20.029 that stuff out. You know, Robert Byrd was in 00:21:20.029 --> 00:21:22.950 the damn Klan. And then he quit the Klan, renounced 00:21:22.950 --> 00:21:24.950 violence, devoted himself to civil rights. And 00:21:24.950 --> 00:21:28.410 when he died, he was honored by the NAACP. Charlie 00:21:28.410 --> 00:21:29.809 Kirk's never going to get a chance to be honored 00:21:29.809 --> 00:21:31.769 by the NAACP. He's never going to get a chance 00:21:31.769 --> 00:21:36.920 to. balance out the stupid stuff of his youth 00:21:36.920 --> 00:21:39.940 and and so in that sense it makes me want to 00:21:39.940 --> 00:21:42.019 be kinder and it makes me want to have more humility 00:21:42.019 --> 00:21:44.259 and not be so quick to judge other people for 00:21:44.259 --> 00:21:47.400 for their imperfections yes the racism is a curse 00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:49.240 but it's a curse that was implanted in this guy 00:21:49.240 --> 00:21:52.740 and uh it did not make his life better Well, 00:21:52.759 --> 00:21:56.680 thank you for all that sharing, John. Is that 00:21:56.680 --> 00:21:58.319 too much, John? That might have been a little 00:21:58.319 --> 00:22:00.700 too much there. No, no. Thank you for all that. 00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:03.000 And I've been reflecting. We were recording this 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:05.359 just a week after the assassination of Charlie 00:22:05.359 --> 00:22:10.680 Kirk. I've been talking about nonviolence every 00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:14.779 day of my life, John, for 45 years. And Jesus, 00:22:14.839 --> 00:22:17.279 I keep saying, don't look at me. Jesus said this 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:20.759 stuff. And that means pretty much every day of 00:22:20.759 --> 00:22:23.880 my life. I've had a Christian say, yeah, but 00:22:23.880 --> 00:22:26.700 we got to kill sometime. So I want to ask you 00:22:26.700 --> 00:22:31.920 about how to talk about that and nonviolent communication 00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:34.460 and how to talk about Jesus and nonviolence. 00:22:34.539 --> 00:22:37.640 You're a famous communicator, and I'm so happy 00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:41.339 about your book because... You have come around, 00:22:41.400 --> 00:22:43.819 and now you're going to be saying publicly, hey, 00:22:43.880 --> 00:22:46.660 let's really look at what the nonviolent Jesus 00:22:46.660 --> 00:22:49.579 said. And he's welcoming everybody and calling 00:22:49.579 --> 00:22:55.539 for universal nonviolent love. And I, you know, 00:22:55.559 --> 00:22:58.720 have tried so hard and get a very small audience, 00:22:58.920 --> 00:23:01.299 but you can get a big audience if you preach 00:23:01.299 --> 00:23:05.920 hatred and war. And meanwhile, we're all called, 00:23:05.980 --> 00:23:08.299 like Marshall Rosenberg taught in his brilliant, 00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:10.839 famous book, Nonviolent Communication, that if 00:23:10.839 --> 00:23:12.460 you want to talk about the nonviolent Jesus, 00:23:12.579 --> 00:23:15.339 you've got to do it nonviolently. It's part of 00:23:15.339 --> 00:23:17.839 the hard part. So tell me about that, John, your 00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:21.079 journey in stand -up and acting and podcasts 00:23:21.079 --> 00:23:25.359 and radio shows and VH1. And now you've written 00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:29.079 this very important book, The Separation of Church 00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:33.509 and Hate. how we can go forward in this age of 00:23:33.509 --> 00:23:36.990 Trump. But, I mean, this is going to help listeners 00:23:36.990 --> 00:23:40.490 here, and me too, John, how to dialogue, how 00:23:40.490 --> 00:23:43.210 to talk about these life and death issues and 00:23:43.210 --> 00:23:46.829 the gospel, but to do it as nonviolently as possible. 00:23:47.750 --> 00:23:50.789 Yeah, I mean, but this is the essence of fundamentalism, 00:23:50.809 --> 00:23:53.349 right? They like to say that all the problems 00:23:53.349 --> 00:23:55.490 are caused by the religions, and religion is 00:23:55.490 --> 00:23:56.829 the source of all the oppression of women and 00:23:56.829 --> 00:23:59.880 violence and homophobia, yada yada. And I always 00:23:59.880 --> 00:24:01.839 have this debate with my atheist loved ones, 00:24:01.880 --> 00:24:04.200 and I always say, no, man, it's not religion. 00:24:04.299 --> 00:24:07.799 It's the extreme fundamentalist wings of all 00:24:07.799 --> 00:24:11.019 religions. I would submit to your listeners that 00:24:11.019 --> 00:24:13.299 extreme conservative fundamentalist Christianity 00:24:13.299 --> 00:24:16.599 and Judaism and Islam are practically the same 00:24:16.599 --> 00:24:20.279 religion. Fundamentalism is what's ruining it. 00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:25.559 Always. Always. And in Christianity, I mean, 00:24:25.579 --> 00:24:28.579 from the Crusades. To these modern gun nuts, 00:24:28.819 --> 00:24:31.259 the way they portray Jesus is this like battle 00:24:31.259 --> 00:24:34.299 -ready soldier has always been used to justify 00:24:34.299 --> 00:24:38.059 violence in the name of power. We see this in 00:24:38.059 --> 00:24:40.519 these juvenile ways now that they blend Christ 00:24:40.519 --> 00:24:43.319 with their own hyper -masculine combat fantasies 00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:47.200 because that's a studly upgrade from Jesus' yammering 00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:49.019 about peace and non -retaliation, which isn't 00:24:49.019 --> 00:24:50.880 that sexy, isn't that glamorous, isn't that fun. 00:24:51.160 --> 00:24:54.970 When you see the Secretary of Defense... This 00:24:54.970 --> 00:24:57.390 alcoholic sex pest Fox News weekend prompter 00:24:57.390 --> 00:25:02.470 monkey reeks of Jägermeister through my TV. Having 00:25:02.470 --> 00:25:07.109 his childish Deus Volt tattoo, God Wills It, 00:25:07.210 --> 00:25:09.789 which was what the revoltingly fake Christians 00:25:09.789 --> 00:25:13.490 used in the Crusades when Christianity went from 00:25:13.490 --> 00:25:16.789 being an oppressed sect based on love to being 00:25:16.789 --> 00:25:19.289 an imperial religion that waged war on people 00:25:19.289 --> 00:25:22.859 smaller than them for power and land. And Deus 00:25:22.859 --> 00:25:25.039 vult, God wills it. Man, this violence has to 00:25:25.039 --> 00:25:26.819 happen because we're going to impose Christianity 00:25:26.819 --> 00:25:29.240 on this people. And that means it's okay that 00:25:29.240 --> 00:25:31.599 we're violating everything Christ commands of 00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:34.859 us. Everything. Everything. I mean, as we saw 00:25:34.859 --> 00:25:37.220 with the slaves in America and with the indigenous 00:25:37.220 --> 00:25:40.519 people, being saved didn't save them. And that's 00:25:40.519 --> 00:25:42.400 the whole history of the religion, right? So 00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:45.680 much brutality. But there's another side to it. 00:25:46.119 --> 00:25:49.140 Because every time Christianity has promoted 00:25:49.140 --> 00:25:52.809 violence to gain power. there's always been Christ 00:25:52.809 --> 00:25:57.470 followers who pushed back. So when we had the 00:25:57.470 --> 00:25:59.630 Crusades and were slaughtering Muslims and Jews 00:25:59.630 --> 00:26:03.269 in Jesus's name in violation of his teachings, 00:26:03.390 --> 00:26:05.950 it was St. Francis of Assisi who quit the war 00:26:05.950 --> 00:26:08.910 and preached nonviolence. When the doctrine of 00:26:08.910 --> 00:26:12.630 discovery encouraged nations to go and colonize 00:26:12.630 --> 00:26:16.349 and rape and steal natural resources, but it's 00:26:16.349 --> 00:26:17.950 all okay because we're going to force Christianity 00:26:17.950 --> 00:26:21.119 on various indigenous people. when columbus was 00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:23.339 slaughtering the taino people in the shadow of 00:26:23.339 --> 00:26:26.140 the cross it was the catholic priest on his boat 00:26:26.619 --> 00:26:28.880 Father Bartolomeo de las Casas, who wrote to 00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:31.759 the queen and protested. The first act of protest 00:26:31.759 --> 00:26:35.019 by a white person in this hemisphere was a Catholic 00:26:35.019 --> 00:26:38.559 priest against what Columbus was doing. Slavery 00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:41.339 propped up. I mean, slavery was propped up by 00:26:41.339 --> 00:26:43.980 Christianity. The children of Ham are taking 00:26:43.980 --> 00:26:45.940 other Old Testament passages out of context. 00:26:46.019 --> 00:26:48.119 Again, Jesus came to break the chains, but the 00:26:48.119 --> 00:26:50.339 Christians didn't care. They wanted to use his 00:26:50.339 --> 00:26:52.700 name for power and justify it because we're going 00:26:52.700 --> 00:26:55.819 to make our slaves grow up to be Christian. That's 00:26:55.819 --> 00:26:58.099 how. it's okay. We're saving their souls. These 00:26:58.099 --> 00:27:00.059 white people lie to themselves in so many ways. 00:27:00.420 --> 00:27:02.720 But it was Christ followers like Harriet Tubman 00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:05.200 and Frederick Douglass and the Quakers who pushed 00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:07.779 back and led the abolitionist movement. We saw 00:27:07.779 --> 00:27:09.779 it in the Holocaust. It was Christians who did 00:27:09.779 --> 00:27:13.240 it. They had God is with us belt buckles. Hitler 00:27:13.240 --> 00:27:16.000 said Jesus was a fighter. He saw this, all this 00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:18.740 macho violent nonsense. And it was Christians 00:27:18.740 --> 00:27:21.000 like Bonhoeffer who gave their lives to resist 00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:23.440 it. Segregation was prompted by Christianity. 00:27:23.799 --> 00:27:26.000 Jerry Falwell opened whites -only schools, and 00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:30.119 it was a Baptist minister from Atlanta. who shamed 00:27:30.119 --> 00:27:32.240 white America using their own scriptures. We've 00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:34.660 seen it so many times. There is an incredible 00:27:34.660 --> 00:27:37.440 history of the Catholic worker movement when 00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:39.839 corporate Christianity was propping up exploitation 00:27:39.839 --> 00:27:42.220 of labor and Dorothy Day and the Catholic worker 00:27:42.220 --> 00:27:44.900 movement led the fight for an end to child labor. 00:27:45.099 --> 00:27:47.819 There's an incredible history in the world of 00:27:47.819 --> 00:27:51.259 brave, beautiful Christian activism. And it has 00:27:51.259 --> 00:27:55.140 almost always manifested itself in resistance 00:27:55.140 --> 00:27:59.160 to Christian violence and authoritarianism. Yeah, 00:27:59.160 --> 00:28:01.380 and you're so right. Thank you to take us back 00:28:01.380 --> 00:28:04.059 to Constantine, because that's where the troubles 00:28:04.059 --> 00:28:06.660 begin. I've just been talking like you about 00:28:06.660 --> 00:28:09.180 this all my life. You know, John, I was reading 00:28:09.180 --> 00:28:12.920 long ago The City of God by St. Augustine. So 00:28:12.920 --> 00:28:16.519 that goes after Constantine has said, OK, Christianity 00:28:16.519 --> 00:28:18.720 is legal. Now you can all kill for the empire. 00:28:18.839 --> 00:28:21.619 And we all went, oh, thank God. And Augustine 00:28:21.619 --> 00:28:24.059 has a sentence in there that says, you know. 00:28:24.569 --> 00:28:26.650 Sometimes the best way you love your enemies 00:28:26.650 --> 00:28:29.049 is to kill them. They really want to be killed. 00:28:29.450 --> 00:28:32.390 It's in the book. And he's the greatest, one 00:28:32.390 --> 00:28:34.869 of the great saints apparently. Well, anyway. 00:28:35.069 --> 00:28:38.990 Yeah. So. Well. You know. Right. Yeah. Why it's 00:28:38.990 --> 00:28:41.009 almost like things written several thousand years 00:28:41.009 --> 00:28:45.130 ago might not apply to our century. You use the 00:28:45.130 --> 00:28:47.490 phrase, and you've used it several times now 00:28:47.490 --> 00:28:49.930 in our conversation, which I really like, Christ 00:28:49.930 --> 00:28:53.490 followers. And when I read, opened your book, 00:28:53.490 --> 00:28:55.869 and there you're talking about, I like Elvis, 00:28:56.029 --> 00:29:00.690 but his fans. You know, I remember as a kid thinking, 00:29:00.869 --> 00:29:03.170 because, you know, I'm a Beatles fanatic. I don't, 00:29:03.170 --> 00:29:07.730 I'm a fan of the Beatles and Elvis and U2, but 00:29:07.730 --> 00:29:11.720 I don't want to be a fan of Jesus. And I think 00:29:11.720 --> 00:29:15.039 at best these days we're fans of Jesus. And I 00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:20.000 really want to do what the poor guy wants. And 00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:22.660 I kind of, I've been experimenting with my life. 00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:25.819 Yeah. And I had a question here for you, but 00:29:25.819 --> 00:29:28.119 I don't even know if I can ask it. Is it, you 00:29:28.119 --> 00:29:31.359 know, what is you, so instead of being a fan. 00:29:33.430 --> 00:29:36.549 Mouth service or just going to concerts and going, 00:29:36.650 --> 00:29:39.309 that Jesus, he's a really great guy. That's what 00:29:39.309 --> 00:29:42.190 someone said to me in an audience. I really like 00:29:42.190 --> 00:29:44.630 this stuff, and I'm a big fan of Jesus, and I 00:29:44.630 --> 00:29:46.789 love peace. But sometimes you just got to kill 00:29:46.789 --> 00:29:49.789 somebody and get on with it. Yeah, so you're 00:29:49.789 --> 00:29:51.750 not a fan of Jesus, and you think he's wrong. 00:29:51.750 --> 00:29:53.150 Well, you're not a follower. So you're using 00:29:53.150 --> 00:29:55.390 the phrase Christ follower. Tell me about that, 00:29:55.450 --> 00:29:56.809 what that means. No, no, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah, 00:29:56.849 --> 00:29:58.750 you're not a follower, but you're also not a 00:29:58.750 --> 00:30:02.619 fan. Look, here's how I say it, John. If I'm 00:30:02.619 --> 00:30:06.960 in a Rolling Stones cover band and I advertise 00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:09.839 in public that I'm in a Rolling Stones cover 00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:12.740 band and like I ask people to give money to support 00:30:12.740 --> 00:30:14.900 my rolling to come see my live gigs with my Rolling 00:30:14.900 --> 00:30:16.500 Stones cover band. And that's what I am. And 00:30:16.500 --> 00:30:19.940 I identify as that. Right. And then we only play 00:30:19.940 --> 00:30:24.240 songs by Nickelback and Vanilla Ice. It's not 00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:26.180 going to go over. And never actually, nothing 00:30:26.180 --> 00:30:28.759 the Rolling Stones ever said ever comes out of 00:30:28.759 --> 00:30:31.079 our mouth. Things other guys said comes out of 00:30:31.079 --> 00:30:35.180 our mouth. Then I need to find a new name for 00:30:35.180 --> 00:30:40.799 my group. That's a very clever 21st century way 00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:45.920 to speak of the gospel. Thank you. Okay. In your 00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:48.740 book. For once, I have a Titan compact. Thank 00:30:48.740 --> 00:30:52.309 you. You go through, I won't call them issues, 00:30:52.390 --> 00:30:54.670 but these different themes. And I hope everyone, 00:30:54.750 --> 00:30:56.630 as I said, gets the book because you cover so 00:30:56.630 --> 00:31:01.589 much. But at the end, you talk about standing 00:31:01.589 --> 00:31:04.049 with the poor. So I wanted to ask you about that. 00:31:05.049 --> 00:31:08.589 That's such a hallmark of the four Gospels. He 00:31:08.589 --> 00:31:10.650 talks about that almost more than anything. I 00:31:10.650 --> 00:31:13.849 think everything he does is... I always joke, 00:31:14.009 --> 00:31:16.630 everything he does is nonviolence. My joke, John, 00:31:16.789 --> 00:31:19.009 is that Jesus thinks he's Martin Luther King. 00:31:19.230 --> 00:31:22.529 He thinks he's Gandhi. I always say, can I say 00:31:22.529 --> 00:31:27.210 that? But you write beautifully about the contrast 00:31:27.210 --> 00:31:30.210 between liberation theology versus the prosperity 00:31:30.210 --> 00:31:33.349 gospel, which nobody talks about, but it's really 00:31:33.349 --> 00:31:37.390 big. You know, God is blessing you so you can 00:31:37.390 --> 00:31:40.450 make it and get rich. You have a personal savior 00:31:40.450 --> 00:31:43.390 who's going to get you a nice house. Isn't that 00:31:43.390 --> 00:31:46.559 cute? Oh, Jesus wants you to have things. Jesus 00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:48.640 wants you to have so many things. I don't remember 00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:51.140 him saying that. I remember him saying, give 00:31:51.140 --> 00:31:53.500 away your money. And I did that. And it's been 00:31:53.500 --> 00:31:56.420 downhill ever since. But go ahead. Yeah, they 00:31:56.420 --> 00:31:58.079 also think Jesus said, if you don't work, you 00:31:58.079 --> 00:32:00.599 don't eat. No, Jesus didn't say that. Paul said 00:32:00.599 --> 00:32:02.119 something like that, that you're taken out of 00:32:02.119 --> 00:32:06.140 context to justify ignoring Jesus's favorite 00:32:06.140 --> 00:32:09.420 issue. In every one of Jesus's live appearances, 00:32:09.819 --> 00:32:12.460 I like to say, at every one of his live gigs, 00:32:12.599 --> 00:32:14.859 talking about Jesus. about poverty was like his 00:32:14.859 --> 00:32:19.019 Layla. OK, that was Layla in his set list. His 00:32:19.019 --> 00:32:21.660 opening line was blessed are the poor. That was 00:32:21.660 --> 00:32:23.460 his opening. He didn't talk about drag queens, 00:32:23.720 --> 00:32:26.460 not about the capital gains tax, not about a 00:32:26.460 --> 00:32:28.960 talking snake, not about how loud you can scream 00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:32.099 at women outside clinics. Right. I mean, I mean, 00:32:32.119 --> 00:32:35.740 he came to. Let the oppressed go free. Blessed 00:32:35.740 --> 00:32:37.759 are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom 00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:40.380 of God. That seems quaint now, but when you realize 00:32:40.380 --> 00:32:43.140 he said it with a bunch of armed imperial Roman 00:32:43.140 --> 00:32:46.019 centurions around him, he was being incredibly 00:32:46.019 --> 00:32:48.180 subversive in ways that we can't understand as 00:32:48.180 --> 00:32:51.920 kids when they teach us this stuff. The prosperity 00:32:51.920 --> 00:32:54.240 gospel, look, here's what I'll say about that, 00:32:54.319 --> 00:33:00.099 okay? Joel Osteen is not a racist, okay? His 00:33:00.099 --> 00:33:02.299 whole movement, they're not bigots. They're not 00:33:02.299 --> 00:33:03.900 Christian nationalists. They're not out there 00:33:03.900 --> 00:33:07.000 demonizing the immigrants. The book's not about 00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:09.619 them. I didn't write about them. But it's still 00:33:09.619 --> 00:33:11.900 junk theology. You know, it's no different than 00:33:11.900 --> 00:33:13.839 Jerry Falwell coming out in the 70s talking about 00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:16.519 all these welfare bums. Where the hell does Jesus 00:33:16.519 --> 00:33:19.700 ever talk like that, these welfare bums? Like, 00:33:19.700 --> 00:33:22.720 you know, it's literally the issue he cares about 00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:26.289 the most. The Bible. talks about helping the 00:33:26.289 --> 00:33:28.269 poor over 2 ,000 times, and I guess that's why 00:33:28.269 --> 00:33:30.009 conservatives can't stop talking about it, huh? 00:33:30.130 --> 00:33:32.150 How many conservative Christians do you have 00:33:32.150 --> 00:33:34.990 who talk about it? It's just God, too. I mean, 00:33:34.990 --> 00:33:38.210 God forbids us for charging interest to people 00:33:38.210 --> 00:33:41.230 on loans. I mean, God says if anyone becomes 00:33:41.230 --> 00:33:43.150 poor and can't support themselves, we have to 00:33:43.150 --> 00:33:46.829 support them. This is not some new liberal idea. 00:33:47.049 --> 00:33:50.009 This is God and Jesus saying that you have a 00:33:50.009 --> 00:33:53.369 responsibility to prioritize care for the poor. 00:33:54.009 --> 00:33:56.049 We have to ask these conservative Christians, 00:33:56.569 --> 00:34:00.609 why are God and Jesus wrong? The prosperity gospel, 00:34:00.789 --> 00:34:02.670 this whole notion of if you're really, really 00:34:02.670 --> 00:34:05.470 good and you live by the Lord, God will like 00:34:05.470 --> 00:34:07.609 you so much that, by gosh, he's just going to 00:34:07.609 --> 00:34:09.550 reward you with tons of earthly riches. It's 00:34:09.550 --> 00:34:12.710 so cute, but it's the same junk theology of essentially 00:34:12.710 --> 00:34:15.769 saying if you're struggling and things aren't 00:34:15.769 --> 00:34:18.150 going your way economically, that's probably 00:34:18.150 --> 00:34:21.170 because you're not right with God. And God doesn't 00:34:21.170 --> 00:34:23.170 want you. I mean, they never think about the 00:34:23.170 --> 00:34:24.889 fact that you're saying that wealth is a sign 00:34:24.889 --> 00:34:27.090 that God's a fan of you. And they never quote 00:34:27.090 --> 00:34:29.150 Christ for this. They quote Deuteronomy and Proverbs, 00:34:29.190 --> 00:34:32.590 right? I mean, nowhere does Jesus promise wealth 00:34:32.590 --> 00:34:35.130 for any reason. Jesus taught self -denial and 00:34:35.130 --> 00:34:38.010 service to others. And he warned about materialism. 00:34:38.030 --> 00:34:40.849 Don't store up treasures on earth. Store up treasures 00:34:40.849 --> 00:34:45.639 for yourself in heaven. The movement, Jesus keeps 00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:49.179 saying, is about what you do, not what you get. 00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:51.599 And yes, according to the Bible, God can give 00:34:51.599 --> 00:34:54.039 you material blessings. Yes, but Jesus' whole 00:34:54.039 --> 00:34:57.699 gig is about sacrifice. Pick up the cross daily 00:34:57.699 --> 00:35:01.099 and follow me. So this whole God wants you to 00:35:01.099 --> 00:35:05.019 be rich, call now? I mean, it's not about hate, 00:35:05.059 --> 00:35:07.599 but it's dangerous, victim -blaming junk theology 00:35:07.599 --> 00:35:09.820 that has nothing to do with Christ's teachings. 00:35:10.239 --> 00:35:14.639 Thank you. We're near the end of our time, so 00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:16.659 maybe two more questions. And of course, they're 00:35:16.659 --> 00:35:19.199 infinitely big. It'd take a year to go through 00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:24.300 them. And so I guess I'll put it this way. I'd 00:35:24.300 --> 00:35:26.619 love you to talk specifically about Blessed are 00:35:26.619 --> 00:35:29.019 the Peacemakers and Love Your Enemies in the 00:35:29.019 --> 00:35:33.579 time of war, Third World War, peace meal, Pope 00:35:33.579 --> 00:35:36.800 Francis said, or permanent warfare, or nuclear 00:35:36.800 --> 00:35:40.489 weapons, or God bless the troops. And in particular, 00:35:40.690 --> 00:35:43.730 John, what I love so much, what I got from Martin 00:35:43.730 --> 00:35:46.250 Luther King was, you know, when I was a kid, 00:35:46.289 --> 00:35:48.590 I go, okay, Jesus, I love my enemies. I'll do 00:35:48.590 --> 00:35:50.769 it. And by the way, for me, that's nation state 00:35:50.769 --> 00:35:53.750 language. You love the people. Your country is 00:35:53.750 --> 00:35:56.989 designated for death. So that means Iraq, Afghanistan, 00:35:57.070 --> 00:36:02.610 Vietnam, Palestinians. So I'm like, why? Jesus, 00:36:02.630 --> 00:36:06.090 and it's right there. So I want your comment 00:36:06.090 --> 00:36:09.090 on this. The most political sentence in the entire 00:36:09.090 --> 00:36:13.730 Bible is sort of like, not only the love your 00:36:13.730 --> 00:36:17.329 enemies, it's not only the end of war, it's the 00:36:17.329 --> 00:36:20.730 end of the nation state system. Oh, it's more 00:36:20.730 --> 00:36:26.090 than that. It's Jesus breaking every cycle of 00:36:26.090 --> 00:36:28.690 violence. It's Jesus saying, I don't care who 00:36:28.690 --> 00:36:31.090 started it, and I don't care who gets the last 00:36:31.090 --> 00:36:34.610 punch in. I am here with my covenant to say this 00:36:34.610 --> 00:36:38.170 ends now. And any Christian individual or any 00:36:38.170 --> 00:36:42.050 group that advocates violence or justifies violence 00:36:42.050 --> 00:36:46.800 or engages in it— are directly rejecting Jesus' 00:36:47.079 --> 00:36:50.559 direct teachings and commandments of non -retaliation. 00:36:50.599 --> 00:36:53.480 Jesus blessed the peacemakers. He taught reconciliation. 00:36:53.780 --> 00:36:56.659 And even under Paul, called his followers to 00:36:56.659 --> 00:36:59.340 live in peace with everyone. Love your enemies 00:36:59.340 --> 00:37:01.539 and care for those who are different from them. 00:37:01.719 --> 00:37:04.440 My God, look what they can do. It's fantastic. 00:37:04.539 --> 00:37:06.300 Look what they can do, these zealots in a country 00:37:06.300 --> 00:37:08.460 with over 100 guns for every person. So, John, 00:37:08.619 --> 00:37:11.420 but... Then Martin Luther King says, here in 00:37:11.420 --> 00:37:13.380 this political commandments, the heart of the 00:37:13.380 --> 00:37:16.849 whole thing. And I'm asking why. Dr. King said, 00:37:17.030 --> 00:37:19.630 because didn't we just agree in the Beatitudes? 00:37:20.130 --> 00:37:22.889 Then you're really the sons and daughters of 00:37:22.889 --> 00:37:25.190 the God who lets the sun rise on the good and 00:37:25.190 --> 00:37:27.690 the bad and the rain to fall on the just and 00:37:27.690 --> 00:37:29.989 the unjust. In other words, I think it's the 00:37:29.989 --> 00:37:32.150 clearest description of the nature of God in 00:37:32.150 --> 00:37:34.230 the entire Bible there in the most political 00:37:34.230 --> 00:37:37.769 sentence that God is a God of universal love 00:37:37.769 --> 00:37:41.010 and nonviolence. And that's the issue is our 00:37:41.010 --> 00:37:43.769 image of God. Tell me about the image of God 00:37:43.769 --> 00:37:47.860 as. I mean, I think Jesus is saying God is infinite 00:37:47.860 --> 00:37:50.460 nonviolence, universal love, universal compassion, 00:37:50.820 --> 00:37:53.800 universal peace. And we're the children of that 00:37:53.800 --> 00:37:56.900 God. So we don't kill. If you follow Jesus, if 00:37:56.900 --> 00:38:00.260 you follow Jesus. But if you follow the Bible, 00:38:00.559 --> 00:38:03.860 oh, there's lots of violence. There's lots of 00:38:03.860 --> 00:38:06.099 God having lots of slaughter. There's lots of 00:38:06.099 --> 00:38:09.280 God telling you you are all clear to commit genocide. 00:38:10.090 --> 00:38:14.650 i mean bible doesn't forbid genocide it forbids 00:38:14.650 --> 00:38:18.369 uh uh eating bacon doesn't forbid genocide so 00:38:18.369 --> 00:38:20.909 it depends if you're following the bible you'll 00:38:20.909 --> 00:38:22.909 find plenty of reasons to kill lots of people 00:38:22.909 --> 00:38:25.329 and a god that cheers you on if you follow christ 00:38:25.329 --> 00:38:27.760 you don't get to ever do that And that's the 00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:30.039 difference. Christians follow Christ. They don't 00:38:30.039 --> 00:38:32.619 follow the Bible. The Bible tells us to follow 00:38:32.619 --> 00:38:34.380 Christ. The Bible doesn't tell us to follow the 00:38:34.380 --> 00:38:36.940 Bible. The Bible is 400 dead guys with their 00:38:36.940 --> 00:38:39.760 version of what God is, all competing in one 00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:42.480 narrative with too many rewriters. And I think 00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:45.199 that what you're trying to do in the book is 00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:48.980 to help us unpack what Jesus actually said, and 00:38:48.980 --> 00:38:53.630 therefore to find the living true God. It's shocking 00:38:53.630 --> 00:38:56.590 and scandalous and goes against all politics 00:38:56.590 --> 00:38:59.030 and all sides, this God of universal love and 00:38:59.030 --> 00:39:01.590 total nonviolence. And then the question becomes, 00:39:01.849 --> 00:39:05.429 do we want that God? Do we want a God of universal 00:39:05.429 --> 00:39:07.449 love and nonviolence? We're so scared of that 00:39:07.449 --> 00:39:09.690 because we only know violence. What do you think? 00:39:10.309 --> 00:39:12.530 I think you're right. I mean, it all comes down 00:39:12.530 --> 00:39:14.949 to people recreating God in their own image. 00:39:15.570 --> 00:39:17.710 The Bible's a mirror, and whatever you want to 00:39:17.710 --> 00:39:19.969 see, you'll see. If you want to see love and 00:39:19.969 --> 00:39:21.630 grace and forgiveness and fellowship, you'll 00:39:21.630 --> 00:39:24.219 see it. But if you want to see condemnation and 00:39:24.219 --> 00:39:26.239 misogyny and women as second -class citizens 00:39:26.239 --> 00:39:28.780 and homophobia, if you want to see violence being 00:39:28.780 --> 00:39:31.280 okay and I'm better than other people, you'll 00:39:31.280 --> 00:39:34.239 see that too. Bible's a mirror. Your book ends 00:39:34.239 --> 00:39:37.440 with the last sentence, love is the only religion 00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:40.340 that works. That's so beautiful. And I've been 00:39:40.340 --> 00:39:43.639 thinking that once you enter in the boundaries 00:39:43.639 --> 00:39:47.139 of gospel nonviolence, I refuse to kill or retaliate 00:39:47.139 --> 00:39:51.860 or support war. Then we begin to... breathe and 00:39:51.860 --> 00:39:55.659 can become people of universal love. Tell me 00:39:55.659 --> 00:40:00.079 about the religion of love and this vision and 00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:04.360 where the hope for you is living in and spreading 00:40:04.360 --> 00:40:08.380 and proclaiming this universal love and the practicalities 00:40:08.380 --> 00:40:10.960 of that, because universal hate is not working. 00:40:11.579 --> 00:40:14.500 No, and nor is universal indifference. I mean, 00:40:14.539 --> 00:40:17.699 look, I think spiritual people use religion to 00:40:17.699 --> 00:40:20.460 become better people. Fundamentalists use religion 00:40:20.460 --> 00:40:22.159 to pretend they're better than other people. 00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:25.599 And I do believe that love is the only thing 00:40:25.599 --> 00:40:27.360 that will save this country. Love for America 00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:31.659 and love from America. Authentic Christianity 00:40:31.659 --> 00:40:34.199 is not looking to dominate anything. If you're 00:40:34.199 --> 00:40:36.800 trying to have your religion on top. You're not 00:40:36.800 --> 00:40:39.260 following Jesus. Jesus is constantly telling 00:40:39.260 --> 00:40:41.719 us to go beyond our religion's rules into a deeper 00:40:41.719 --> 00:40:43.300 kind of love. And I say it in the book. It's 00:40:43.300 --> 00:40:46.559 not just a form of affection, this love. It's 00:40:46.559 --> 00:40:48.960 not some passive, permissive state. This is an 00:40:48.960 --> 00:40:52.780 action verb love with all of its challenges and 00:40:52.780 --> 00:40:55.099 discipline and healing. And it's not always going 00:40:55.099 --> 00:40:56.960 to be rewarding. And it's not always going to 00:40:56.960 --> 00:40:59.239 feel good. And the people we are called to love 00:40:59.239 --> 00:41:00.900 are not always going to look like the Dickens 00:41:00.900 --> 00:41:02.980 characters we think they're supposed to be. And 00:41:02.980 --> 00:41:04.809 they're not always going to be grateful. And 00:41:04.809 --> 00:41:06.409 that's why it's picking up a cross and carrying 00:41:06.409 --> 00:41:09.090 this guy because we need people willing to take 00:41:09.090 --> 00:41:12.429 a punch in the name of love. So that's why I'm 00:41:12.429 --> 00:41:15.030 here. That's why I respect the work you do. And 00:41:15.030 --> 00:41:19.210 that's, you know, all I can do is just say, this 00:41:19.210 --> 00:41:21.590 is what Jesus says. Either you believe it or 00:41:21.590 --> 00:41:24.530 you don't. But if you don't believe it, don't 00:41:24.530 --> 00:41:27.409 pretend you're on his side. Is there anything 00:41:27.409 --> 00:41:30.670 else you'd like to say before we end? I'm just 00:41:30.670 --> 00:41:32.409 so grateful to you, John. You are just such an 00:41:32.409 --> 00:41:35.769 inspiration and you consistently remind us, consistently 00:41:35.769 --> 00:41:39.869 remind us to just focus on the love. And in that 00:41:39.869 --> 00:41:41.750 sense, you know, you prove that the only way 00:41:41.750 --> 00:41:44.230 to be a true conservative Christian is to be 00:41:44.230 --> 00:41:47.309 a flaming pro -love liberal. So thank you for 00:41:47.309 --> 00:41:50.590 what you do. Well, thank you, John Fuglesang, 00:41:50.650 --> 00:41:52.630 for being with me today. And I hope everyone 00:41:52.630 --> 00:41:54.969 gets this great new book, Separation of Church 00:41:54.969 --> 00:41:58.199 and Hate. And thank you, friends, for listening 00:41:58.199 --> 00:42:00.579 to the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. You can hear 00:42:00.579 --> 00:42:03.920 more podcasts and find other upcoming Zoom programs 00:42:03.920 --> 00:42:09.219 at www .beatitudescenter .org. Please consider 00:42:09.219 --> 00:42:11.760 offering a donation to support this free work. 00:42:11.860 --> 00:42:14.579 And if you can, maybe leave some positive feedback 00:42:14.579 --> 00:42:17.340 or review at the National Catholic Reporter or 00:42:17.340 --> 00:42:19.940 Apple or Spotify or YouTube or whatever platform 00:42:19.940 --> 00:42:22.559 you use. And most of all, friends, please help 00:42:22.559 --> 00:42:24.619 spread the word by telling other friends and 00:42:24.619 --> 00:42:26.980 churchgoers and everyone. you know about this 00:42:26.980 --> 00:42:29.880 podcast so the word can spread. And may the God 00:42:29.880 --> 00:42:32.780 of peace bless you all. Keep on following the 00:42:32.780 --> 00:42:35.739 non -binary Jesus one day at a time. See you 00:42:35.739 --> 00:42:36.199 next time.