Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm
John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking
with my friend John Fuglesang. This is a project
of BeatitudesCenter .org, where you can find
many other podcasts and regular Zoom programs
on the nonviolence of Jesus and practicing nonviolence
and working for a more just, more nonviolent
world. So let's begin, as I always like to, with
a little prayer. So I invite everyone listening,
wherever you are. just to take a deep breath
and just relax. Notice how you're feeling and
recenter yourself again. And then together, let's
all just enter into the presence of the God of
peace who loves you infinitely and personally
and everyone everywhere. And we welcome the nonviolent
Jesus here with us. And just take a moment to
ask for whatever grace we need to follow the
nonviolent Jesus more faithfully and to do God's
will. God of peace, thank you for all the blessings
of life, love, and peace that you give us. Be
with us now as we reflect together with John
on your call to follow the nonviolent Jesus and
work for a more just, more nonviolent world.
Bless us, heal us, inspire us, disarm us, strengthen
us, and send us out to do your will and to do
our part to end poverty, racism, greed, injustice,
war. especially nuclear weapons and environmental
destruction, that we might be your beatitude
people, your holy peacemakers, and welcome your
reign of universal love and peace on earth. In
Jesus' name, amen. Well, it's a great pleasure
to welcome my friend John Fuglesang, one of our
great broadcasters, comedians, and speakers.
He has acted on CSI, hosted many TV shows and
podcasts. Memorably, I first caught you, John,
when you hosted that, I think it was a V8 show
with Paul McCartney in the mid -90s. Yes, sir.
And the famous last public appearance of our
hero George Harrison as well. which I hope everyone
watches on YouTube, because you got him talking
about God and spirituality. John has debated,
oh gosh, John, I don't know how you did this.
He's debated Jerry Falwell and David Duke. He's
been picketed by the Westboro Baptist Church.
That's showing off, John. Yeah, I'm proud of
that. That's like a daytime Emmy for me, sir.
and hosted the—it's going to be hard for me to
keep a straight face talking to you— and hosted
the radio series Tell Me Everything on SiriusXM,
where he even dared to interview me. He has had
many appearances on MSNBC, Fox News, and CNN,
and his PBS road trip film on The American Dream
called Dream On was named Best Documentary at
the New York Independent Film Festival. He currently
hosts the John Fuglesang Podcast. I met John,
I think it was seven or eight years ago. ago
in Los Angeles at this big gala event to celebrate
all the great folks in California who work to
abolish the death penalty. And John was our emcee
and the speakers were Sister Helen Prejean and
Bernie Sanders and Joan Baez. What a great night.
John has just published his first book, Congratulations,
Separation of Church and Hate, A Sane Person's
Guide to Taking Back the Bible from Fundamentalist,
Fascist, and Flock -Fleecing Frauds, from Simon
& Schuster. John Fugel saying, welcome to the
Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. Thank you. It's such
a pleasure to be here with you and with your
audience. I really appreciate it. What a title,
man. I love it. I think, you know, my new book
coming out is called Universal Love. So I presume
we're in agreement. So tell me about your book.
Why did you write it? What are you hoping to
convey? What's your basic message? And I hope
everybody will get it and read it. Well, I bought
this book for everybody who was raised Christian
in America and, like me, thought that Christianity
was about the stuff Christ talked about, about
helping the less fortunate and forgiving our
enemies, about... acting on the teachings and
commandments of Jesus, whether it was for individuals
and nations to care for the poor and care for
the sick and welcome the stranger and be kind
to prisoners, as Jesus commands in Matthew 25,
whether it's Jesus, you know, commanding us to
turn the other cheek and stop executing people.
And when he said that only sinless people can
execute and stopped in execution, the love, the
empathy, the. focus on the marginalized, the
focus on the least of us, and that addressing
the needs of the least of us who are suffering
the most is the path. Well, I grew up thinking
that was what the religion was about. And then
like so many, I grew up in the 80s and 90s and
saw this parade of blow -dried televangelists
and refried segregationists on TV, the Falwells,
the Pat Robertsons, the Swaggards, who didn't
talk about helping the poor. They didn't talk
about welcoming the stranger. They talked about
welfare queens and aids patients and feminists
and people i was supposed to hate um they didn't
tell me to love my enemy these fundamentalists
were telling me who my enemy is which is generally
a sign you're not really in a church so i i was
raised by two ex -clergy my mother was a nun
from the south who worked as a nurse with lepers
in malawi africa my father was a franciscan brother
from Brooklyn, who taught history to Catholic
boys and was a big social justice, Dorothy Day,
Catholic worker movement, Gandhi, MLK kind of
Christian. And my father, the brother, met my
mother, the sister, fell madly in love with her
for like 10 years. She finally left and they
got married. And, you know, I wrote this book
for my parents and I wrote this book because
I was tired of watching my parents' religion
of love and service be mutated into this Christian
nationalism, which is just about power. They
don't really seem to care about the teachings
of Jesus. They care about their club being on
top and imposing their narrow right -wing version
of Christianity on every level of society. That
is the Seven Mountain Mandate. Seven Mountain
Mandate fights to have right -wing Christianity
put at the top, but they don't fight for any
of the things Christ actually talked about. So
I wrote this book as a guide for any believer,
any atheist, anyone who has to deal with a fundamentalist
or a Christian nationalist. and how to use the
bible on the most common right -wing debate points
so rather than hate them rather than fight them
to let them debate god show them what jesus and
god say about these divisive issues and you don't
have to argue with them themselves and i find
when you do that very often people might appreciate
even if they don't agree with you that you took
the time to meet them on scripture and meet them
in their place and and honestly i really believe
john that we get a lot farther showing our right
-wing loved ones how Jesus was not an immigrant
-hating homophobe than if we just give up and
call our right -wing loved ones immigrant -hating
homophobes. So I wrote the book for all the nice
Christians out there who are tired of seeing
the religion hijacked. Thank you. And because
also, if I may, because the media is not going
to take it back. The media is never going to
ask tough questions. They'll never ask any of
these homophobes, where does Jesus drive the
gay wedding cakes out of the temple? And the
Democratic Party is going to be too terrified
to ever stand up and say the truth, which is
there's no possible way you could follow both
Donald Trump and Jesus unless you've neither
read either one of their books. So it's up to
us. And like all social movements of justice,
it's going to come from people working together,
one heart and one mind at a time. At the beginning
of the book, you have that one page with the
classic witty John Fuel saying line. I've come
to view Jesus the way I've come to view Elvis.
I love the guy, but some of the fan clubs terrify
me. Tell me about that, John. Maybe this is all
the same question I'm going to be asking you,
just to keep unpacking it. No, well, I mean,
y 'all know, you know, this is this curious kind
of American Christianity that believes in worshiping
Jesus as a God, because that's a lot easier.
than following his inconveniently liberal and
woke teachings. Jesus' message is not about total
right -wing domination of the local school board.
It's about... picking up a cross and carrying
it to follow him. It's not supposed to be easy.
You're going to be taking the side of unpopular
people when you've walked the path of Christ.
You're going to be siding with the least of these
and you're going to be judged for it. That's
his message nonstop. This convenient Christianity
where all I've got to do is say, I accept the
Lord Jesus as my Lord and Savior and put up a
tree in my house once a year. I don't see anything
in the gospels that says that's how it works.
And yet we've had this very cursed history of
spiritual narcissism in this country. Lazy spirituality
that doesn't go to Jesus, that finds anything
in the Bible that tells us what we want to hear
and says, well, it's in the Bible. That's good
enough. And, you know, going to Leviticus or
pass Jesus to Paul to justify your own prejudices
is the opposite of Jesus. Trying to put your
group first is the opposite of Jesus. And a lot
of people in this country were raised Christian
and they now consider themselves spiritual. Because
they're so turned off to it. So that's who I'm
talking about. And we've seen so many of us who've
talked to our parents and grandparents out of
so much homophobia in the last 30 years that
I really do believe in so many ways, in spite
of what the media and the internet make you think,
I do think people are getting better. And I do
think we're getting kinder. Oh, that's wonderful
to hear. You know, Gandhi, I'm a big student
of Gandhi, as you know, and he said the same.
The same thing, only he didn't refer to Elvis.
He said, I love your Christ, but I don't like
your Christians because they're so unlike your
Christ. And then in the next page, at the beginning
of the book, you also have this one line, which
was so important to Gandhi in all the letters
that he wrote throughout his life, which I've
studied. He was constantly referring to the last
lines of the Sermon on the Mount. And he was
saying, it's really a sad lament of Jesus. Why
do you call me Lord, Lord, but not do what I
say? And I think that's your theme of your book,
John, that you're calling out to every Christian
in the United States of all walks of life to
say, hey, this is not working, you all, and let's
try to do what the guy actually wants for a change,
all of us. Tell me a little bit more about that,
and in particular about how can we reclaim the
Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount as the
hallmark of our Christianity. I think by just,
you know, if you're going to call yourself a
Christ follower, then you fight for the things
that Christ talked about, and you talk about
the things that Christ talked about. When debating
a right -wing fundamentalist, I'm always fond
of asking, can you please cite for me one actual
teaching of Christ? that Donald Trump or the
MAGA movement have fought for in the last 10
years. Can you give me one gospel teaching of
Jesus that the Republican Party has fought for
in this century? And when you do this, you'll
see pretty quickly how much the person you're
talking to knows or does not know about scripture.
You probably know this yourself. Father John,
the first thing I get all the time is abortion.
And I have to explain, where does Jesus speak
about abortion? Christ never mentions it. We've
seen two generations of Christians who have been
programmed to vote against everything Jesus demands
and everything Jesus talks about, all to criminalize
abortion, which Jesus never talks about. The
Holy Scriptures never ban abortion. Judaism doesn't
ban it. It's legal and free in Israel right now
because it's not banned in the Bible. God never
saw fit to have a penalty. for terminating a
pregnancy, never had Moses or Jesus or Elijah
or any of the prophets talk about it. I'm not
saying the Bible's pro -abortion rights. I'm
not saying Jesus would volunteer as a clinic
escort on the weekends. I'm saying that we've
had two generations who have been groomed and
brainwashed to prioritize something Jesus never
freaking mentioned. And abortions existed in
Jesus's time, never saw fit to mention it anywhere
in the Bible. And yet, when you actually talk
about what Christ commanded. welcome the stranger
they they they call you an open borders globalist
and i say you don't need to fight them let them
argue with god god commands the israelites to
welcome the stranger commands the hebrews to
treat the alien as one of your own christ shows
up in matthew 25 and says individuals and nations
will be judged by how they welcome the stranger
i'm not saying we shouldn't have any standards
on who enters the country To me, it's all about
the criminalization of migrants. I don't call
them illegals. I call them Christian refugees
because it's true and it upsets the right people.
But go ahead and make them argue with God. Don't
get angry with your xenophobic uncle at Thanksgiving.
Just say, well, God says this. Jesus says this.
Why should I listen to you and Donald Trump and
Stephen Miller and reject the words of God and
Jesus? Why are God and Jesus wrong? Let them
argue with the scripture. It's wonderful. What
was it like for you to, or what lessons might
you offer me in my public work from your experience
of actually standing up publicly and debating
Jerry Falwell and David Duke, the leading racists
for decades? I was terrible debating those men.
I was on Bill Maher's show, and I was very young,
and I was going for the laugh. I was terrible.
I was going for the laugh. I was going to have
the audience applaud. I was going to take down
the bad guy. And it never occurred to me to actually
be calm and relaxed and open hearted and talk
about what's in scripture. Instead, I wanted
to have a slam dunk of a racist and a fascist.
And I got it and I got my applause break and
I changed zero minds and zero hearts. So, you
know, you're already doing it, sir. You're already
doing it. Well, thank you for sharing all that.
Bill Maher for years was trying to get me on
a show and Bill O 'Reilly, you know, after the
New York Times read about me. And I just said
to myself, there's no way I'm going. I was on
Hannity and Holmes. I don't remember their names
once. And it went really well. And then they
had me back on and brought in Catholic fundamentalists
who just yelled at me the whole time saying I
wasn't a priest. And I just had six masses. three
parish councils and two finance committee meetings
and three confirmation classes that weekend.
I was a wreck. So it didn't work. And I'm always
trying to learn. And everybody says I'm not dealing
with the far right. I'm doing the best I can.
And I was wondering how you did. So thanks for
your honesty there. Let me ask you then about,
gosh, you write in the book that You use this
phrase, weaponizing the Bible, and it appears
a lot, I think. And you're saying that's one
way to look at what people in the culture under
Trump are doing these days. So what's the opposite
of that? Or how can we—this is also my life's
work—try to, especially in terms of the Gospels,
Lift up and focus on the nonviolence of Jesus,
which is universal love and truth and compassion.
And, I mean, it can't be used for any violence
or any harm toward anyone if you look at just
the four Gospels. So tell me about what your
take is on, again, a little bit even more about
the use of the Bible and the misuse of it, I
should say. And then if you want to say anything
about what has led you to understand what I call
the spectacular. nonviolence of jesus yeah um
where to begin right uh it's not possible to
use violence in the name of jesus the crusades
were blasphemy the spanish inquisition was blasphemy
the invasion of iraq saying that god will not
be neutral and god told me to invade was blasphemy
Slavery was blasphemy. You cannot claim to be
a Christian and do these kinds of things. And
of course, your listeners are much smarter than
me. They all know that already. I feel like when
we talk about Gandhi and nonviolence, that's
the problem, right? I mean, we have to adjust.
If you're going to say you're a Christ follower,
you have to embrace Jesus' deeply unglamorous,
deeply unsexy, deeply unsatisfying commandments.
about forgiveness 70 times 7, about loving our
enemies. Now, for me, there's nowhere more evident
of this than the first issue that radicalized
me as a kid, as a teenager, which was the death
penalty. Murdering sinners, governments murdering
prisoners and murdering sinners. Again, we're
brainwashed to think it's not murder when the
state does it. You know, the anti -government
people don't call it murder when it's, you know.
That big government, they hate so much doing
it. But it is. And for me, Jesus is so black
and white opposed to this. I mean, saying only
the sinless can execute. And the scripture is
right there. These people are going to try to,
you know, wage war, create dominance for themselves
on earth. And they're using Jesus as their camouflage.
So I mainly wrote this book to be. a guide to
camouflage removal, because you don't get to
inflict violence to solve problems. And it's
another reason why it was very strange to write
this book about how to take down Christian nationalism
and racism with nonviolence and humor and scripture.
The same week we see somebody use a bullet to
take down one of the most famous Christian nationalists
and bigots in our society. And it just broke
my heart, John, because I've dealt with Charlie
Kirk. He came at me. I'll never claim that he
was fighting for the gospel. His many, many racist
statements and cruel statements are out there.
I don't need to recount them all. Your listeners
can Google the very real things this man said
and the delight he took and the suffering and
violence towards others. But on the flip side,
we had so many friends on the left who were just
celebrating this disgusting violence because
Nazis deserve it. And how do I embrace that?
I mean, I don't care how violent he was. He could
have been wearing a swastika. It's an unarmed
man who got murdered by a bullet and people claiming
that they're liberals saying that because of
his sins, because of the blackness of his heart,
that he deserved to be murdered like this in
front of their kids. What I've said to a lot
of folks on the left, and again, we're in this
really scary time when they're trying to deify
this young man on the right and ignore. his true
words folks on the left are pushing back about
that and effectively i might add and it's depressing
it may or may not be necessary they're not trying
to speak ill of the dead they're trying to correct
the record and not let this government pass this
propaganda off but as a consequence charlie kirk's
true unpleasant statements are going to follow
him For all eternity. I mean, his racist statements
are going to be known by so many more people
now because they've been so widely circulated.
There's people who never heard of Charlie Kirk
five days ago, a week ago, and now they know
every awful thing he ever said. And that's sad
to me, that his kids are going to grow up and
be told their dad was a saint, and eventually
they'll get old enough to research for themselves,
and they'll see the kind of things their father
really fought for. And I said so many horrible,
vulgar things when I was younger, John. I made
so many mistakes. I said so many things that
I thought was righteous and powerful and strong
that were actually cruel and stupid. And I got
lucky that I got to grow old and be lame. Charlie
Kirk is never gonna get to grow old. He's never
gonna get to lose debates, have his heart opened.
He's never gonna get to have a black friend or
a gay friend or a transgender friend or an immigrant
friend. He's not gonna get to see Trumpism fail
and be humbled by losing a lot of debates and
losing his funding. He's gonna be locked in that
immature place. He was so well compensated to
normalize white supremacy to college students.
And it's tragic. That's what he did. But it's
just as tragic to me that he's never going to
get a chance now to be the kind of guy who balances
that stuff out. You know, Robert Byrd was in
the damn Klan. And then he quit the Klan, renounced
violence, devoted himself to civil rights. And
when he died, he was honored by the NAACP. Charlie
Kirk's never going to get a chance to be honored
by the NAACP. He's never going to get a chance
to. balance out the stupid stuff of his youth
and and so in that sense it makes me want to
be kinder and it makes me want to have more humility
and not be so quick to judge other people for
for their imperfections yes the racism is a curse
but it's a curse that was implanted in this guy
and uh it did not make his life better Well,
thank you for all that sharing, John. Is that
too much, John? That might have been a little
too much there. No, no. Thank you for all that.
And I've been reflecting. We were recording this
just a week after the assassination of Charlie
Kirk. I've been talking about nonviolence every
day of my life, John, for 45 years. And Jesus,
I keep saying, don't look at me. Jesus said this
stuff. And that means pretty much every day of
my life. I've had a Christian say, yeah, but
we got to kill sometime. So I want to ask you
about how to talk about that and nonviolent communication
and how to talk about Jesus and nonviolence.
You're a famous communicator, and I'm so happy
about your book because... You have come around,
and now you're going to be saying publicly, hey,
let's really look at what the nonviolent Jesus
said. And he's welcoming everybody and calling
for universal nonviolent love. And I, you know,
have tried so hard and get a very small audience,
but you can get a big audience if you preach
hatred and war. And meanwhile, we're all called,
like Marshall Rosenberg taught in his brilliant,
famous book, Nonviolent Communication, that if
you want to talk about the nonviolent Jesus,
you've got to do it nonviolently. It's part of
the hard part. So tell me about that, John, your
journey in stand -up and acting and podcasts
and radio shows and VH1. And now you've written
this very important book, The Separation of Church
and Hate. how we can go forward in this age of
Trump. But, I mean, this is going to help listeners
here, and me too, John, how to dialogue, how
to talk about these life and death issues and
the gospel, but to do it as nonviolently as possible.
Yeah, I mean, but this is the essence of fundamentalism,
right? They like to say that all the problems
are caused by the religions, and religion is
the source of all the oppression of women and
violence and homophobia, yada yada. And I always
have this debate with my atheist loved ones,
and I always say, no, man, it's not religion.
It's the extreme fundamentalist wings of all
religions. I would submit to your listeners that
extreme conservative fundamentalist Christianity
and Judaism and Islam are practically the same
religion. Fundamentalism is what's ruining it.
Always. Always. And in Christianity, I mean,
from the Crusades. To these modern gun nuts,
the way they portray Jesus is this like battle
-ready soldier has always been used to justify
violence in the name of power. We see this in
these juvenile ways now that they blend Christ
with their own hyper -masculine combat fantasies
because that's a studly upgrade from Jesus' yammering
about peace and non -retaliation, which isn't
that sexy, isn't that glamorous, isn't that fun.
When you see the Secretary of Defense... This
alcoholic sex pest Fox News weekend prompter
monkey reeks of Jägermeister through my TV. Having
his childish Deus Volt tattoo, God Wills It,
which was what the revoltingly fake Christians
used in the Crusades when Christianity went from
being an oppressed sect based on love to being
an imperial religion that waged war on people
smaller than them for power and land. And Deus
vult, God wills it. Man, this violence has to
happen because we're going to impose Christianity
on this people. And that means it's okay that
we're violating everything Christ commands of
us. Everything. Everything. I mean, as we saw
with the slaves in America and with the indigenous
people, being saved didn't save them. And that's
the whole history of the religion, right? So
much brutality. But there's another side to it.
Because every time Christianity has promoted
violence to gain power. there's always been Christ
followers who pushed back. So when we had the
Crusades and were slaughtering Muslims and Jews
in Jesus's name in violation of his teachings,
it was St. Francis of Assisi who quit the war
and preached nonviolence. When the doctrine of
discovery encouraged nations to go and colonize
and rape and steal natural resources, but it's
all okay because we're going to force Christianity
on various indigenous people. when columbus was
slaughtering the taino people in the shadow of
the cross it was the catholic priest on his boat
Father Bartolomeo de las Casas, who wrote to
the queen and protested. The first act of protest
by a white person in this hemisphere was a Catholic
priest against what Columbus was doing. Slavery
propped up. I mean, slavery was propped up by
Christianity. The children of Ham are taking
other Old Testament passages out of context.
Again, Jesus came to break the chains, but the
Christians didn't care. They wanted to use his
name for power and justify it because we're going
to make our slaves grow up to be Christian. That's
how. it's okay. We're saving their souls. These
white people lie to themselves in so many ways.
But it was Christ followers like Harriet Tubman
and Frederick Douglass and the Quakers who pushed
back and led the abolitionist movement. We saw
it in the Holocaust. It was Christians who did
it. They had God is with us belt buckles. Hitler
said Jesus was a fighter. He saw this, all this
macho violent nonsense. And it was Christians
like Bonhoeffer who gave their lives to resist
it. Segregation was prompted by Christianity.
Jerry Falwell opened whites -only schools, and
it was a Baptist minister from Atlanta. who shamed
white America using their own scriptures. We've
seen it so many times. There is an incredible
history of the Catholic worker movement when
corporate Christianity was propping up exploitation
of labor and Dorothy Day and the Catholic worker
movement led the fight for an end to child labor.
There's an incredible history in the world of
brave, beautiful Christian activism. And it has
almost always manifested itself in resistance
to Christian violence and authoritarianism. Yeah,
and you're so right. Thank you to take us back
to Constantine, because that's where the troubles
begin. I've just been talking like you about
this all my life. You know, John, I was reading
long ago The City of God by St. Augustine. So
that goes after Constantine has said, OK, Christianity
is legal. Now you can all kill for the empire.
And we all went, oh, thank God. And Augustine
has a sentence in there that says, you know.
Sometimes the best way you love your enemies
is to kill them. They really want to be killed.
It's in the book. And he's the greatest, one
of the great saints apparently. Well, anyway.
Yeah. So. Well. You know. Right. Yeah. Why it's
almost like things written several thousand years
ago might not apply to our century. You use the
phrase, and you've used it several times now
in our conversation, which I really like, Christ
followers. And when I read, opened your book,
and there you're talking about, I like Elvis,
but his fans. You know, I remember as a kid thinking,
because, you know, I'm a Beatles fanatic. I don't,
I'm a fan of the Beatles and Elvis and U2, but
I don't want to be a fan of Jesus. And I think
at best these days we're fans of Jesus. And I
really want to do what the poor guy wants. And
I kind of, I've been experimenting with my life.
Yeah. And I had a question here for you, but
I don't even know if I can ask it. Is it, you
know, what is you, so instead of being a fan.
Mouth service or just going to concerts and going,
that Jesus, he's a really great guy. That's what
someone said to me in an audience. I really like
this stuff, and I'm a big fan of Jesus, and I
love peace. But sometimes you just got to kill
somebody and get on with it. Yeah, so you're
not a fan of Jesus, and you think he's wrong.
Well, you're not a follower. So you're using
the phrase Christ follower. Tell me about that,
what that means. No, no, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah,
you're not a follower, but you're also not a
fan. Look, here's how I say it, John. If I'm
in a Rolling Stones cover band and I advertise
in public that I'm in a Rolling Stones cover
band and like I ask people to give money to support
my rolling to come see my live gigs with my Rolling
Stones cover band. And that's what I am. And
I identify as that. Right. And then we only play
songs by Nickelback and Vanilla Ice. It's not
going to go over. And never actually, nothing
the Rolling Stones ever said ever comes out of
our mouth. Things other guys said comes out of
our mouth. Then I need to find a new name for
my group. That's a very clever 21st century way
to speak of the gospel. Thank you. Okay. In your
book. For once, I have a Titan compact. Thank
you. You go through, I won't call them issues,
but these different themes. And I hope everyone,
as I said, gets the book because you cover so
much. But at the end, you talk about standing
with the poor. So I wanted to ask you about that.
That's such a hallmark of the four Gospels. He
talks about that almost more than anything. I
think everything he does is... I always joke,
everything he does is nonviolence. My joke, John,
is that Jesus thinks he's Martin Luther King.
He thinks he's Gandhi. I always say, can I say
that? But you write beautifully about the contrast
between liberation theology versus the prosperity
gospel, which nobody talks about, but it's really
big. You know, God is blessing you so you can
make it and get rich. You have a personal savior
who's going to get you a nice house. Isn't that
cute? Oh, Jesus wants you to have things. Jesus
wants you to have so many things. I don't remember
him saying that. I remember him saying, give
away your money. And I did that. And it's been
downhill ever since. But go ahead. Yeah, they
also think Jesus said, if you don't work, you
don't eat. No, Jesus didn't say that. Paul said
something like that, that you're taken out of
context to justify ignoring Jesus's favorite
issue. In every one of Jesus's live appearances,
I like to say, at every one of his live gigs,
talking about Jesus. about poverty was like his
Layla. OK, that was Layla in his set list. His
opening line was blessed are the poor. That was
his opening. He didn't talk about drag queens,
not about the capital gains tax, not about a
talking snake, not about how loud you can scream
at women outside clinics. Right. I mean, I mean,
he came to. Let the oppressed go free. Blessed
are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom
of God. That seems quaint now, but when you realize
he said it with a bunch of armed imperial Roman
centurions around him, he was being incredibly
subversive in ways that we can't understand as
kids when they teach us this stuff. The prosperity
gospel, look, here's what I'll say about that,
okay? Joel Osteen is not a racist, okay? His
whole movement, they're not bigots. They're not
Christian nationalists. They're not out there
demonizing the immigrants. The book's not about
them. I didn't write about them. But it's still
junk theology. You know, it's no different than
Jerry Falwell coming out in the 70s talking about
all these welfare bums. Where the hell does Jesus
ever talk like that, these welfare bums? Like,
you know, it's literally the issue he cares about
the most. The Bible. talks about helping the
poor over 2 ,000 times, and I guess that's why
conservatives can't stop talking about it, huh?
How many conservative Christians do you have
who talk about it? It's just God, too. I mean,
God forbids us for charging interest to people
on loans. I mean, God says if anyone becomes
poor and can't support themselves, we have to
support them. This is not some new liberal idea.
This is God and Jesus saying that you have a
responsibility to prioritize care for the poor.
We have to ask these conservative Christians,
why are God and Jesus wrong? The prosperity gospel,
this whole notion of if you're really, really
good and you live by the Lord, God will like
you so much that, by gosh, he's just going to
reward you with tons of earthly riches. It's
so cute, but it's the same junk theology of essentially
saying if you're struggling and things aren't
going your way economically, that's probably
because you're not right with God. And God doesn't
want you. I mean, they never think about the
fact that you're saying that wealth is a sign
that God's a fan of you. And they never quote
Christ for this. They quote Deuteronomy and Proverbs,
right? I mean, nowhere does Jesus promise wealth
for any reason. Jesus taught self -denial and
service to others. And he warned about materialism.
Don't store up treasures on earth. Store up treasures
for yourself in heaven. The movement, Jesus keeps
saying, is about what you do, not what you get.
And yes, according to the Bible, God can give
you material blessings. Yes, but Jesus' whole
gig is about sacrifice. Pick up the cross daily
and follow me. So this whole God wants you to
be rich, call now? I mean, it's not about hate,
but it's dangerous, victim -blaming junk theology
that has nothing to do with Christ's teachings.
Thank you. We're near the end of our time, so
maybe two more questions. And of course, they're
infinitely big. It'd take a year to go through
them. And so I guess I'll put it this way. I'd
love you to talk specifically about Blessed are
the Peacemakers and Love Your Enemies in the
time of war, Third World War, peace meal, Pope
Francis said, or permanent warfare, or nuclear
weapons, or God bless the troops. And in particular,
John, what I love so much, what I got from Martin
Luther King was, you know, when I was a kid,
I go, okay, Jesus, I love my enemies. I'll do
it. And by the way, for me, that's nation state
language. You love the people. Your country is
designated for death. So that means Iraq, Afghanistan,
Vietnam, Palestinians. So I'm like, why? Jesus,
and it's right there. So I want your comment
on this. The most political sentence in the entire
Bible is sort of like, not only the love your
enemies, it's not only the end of war, it's the
end of the nation state system. Oh, it's more
than that. It's Jesus breaking every cycle of
violence. It's Jesus saying, I don't care who
started it, and I don't care who gets the last
punch in. I am here with my covenant to say this
ends now. And any Christian individual or any
group that advocates violence or justifies violence
or engages in it— are directly rejecting Jesus'
direct teachings and commandments of non -retaliation.
Jesus blessed the peacemakers. He taught reconciliation.
And even under Paul, called his followers to
live in peace with everyone. Love your enemies
and care for those who are different from them.
My God, look what they can do. It's fantastic.
Look what they can do, these zealots in a country
with over 100 guns for every person. So, John,
but... Then Martin Luther King says, here in
this political commandments, the heart of the
whole thing. And I'm asking why. Dr. King said,
because didn't we just agree in the Beatitudes?
Then you're really the sons and daughters of
the God who lets the sun rise on the good and
the bad and the rain to fall on the just and
the unjust. In other words, I think it's the
clearest description of the nature of God in
the entire Bible there in the most political
sentence that God is a God of universal love
and nonviolence. And that's the issue is our
image of God. Tell me about the image of God
as. I mean, I think Jesus is saying God is infinite
nonviolence, universal love, universal compassion,
universal peace. And we're the children of that
God. So we don't kill. If you follow Jesus, if
you follow Jesus. But if you follow the Bible,
oh, there's lots of violence. There's lots of
God having lots of slaughter. There's lots of
God telling you you are all clear to commit genocide.
i mean bible doesn't forbid genocide it forbids
uh uh eating bacon doesn't forbid genocide so
it depends if you're following the bible you'll
find plenty of reasons to kill lots of people
and a god that cheers you on if you follow christ
you don't get to ever do that And that's the
difference. Christians follow Christ. They don't
follow the Bible. The Bible tells us to follow
Christ. The Bible doesn't tell us to follow the
Bible. The Bible is 400 dead guys with their
version of what God is, all competing in one
narrative with too many rewriters. And I think
that what you're trying to do in the book is
to help us unpack what Jesus actually said, and
therefore to find the living true God. It's shocking
and scandalous and goes against all politics
and all sides, this God of universal love and
total nonviolence. And then the question becomes,
do we want that God? Do we want a God of universal
love and nonviolence? We're so scared of that
because we only know violence. What do you think?
I think you're right. I mean, it all comes down
to people recreating God in their own image.
The Bible's a mirror, and whatever you want to
see, you'll see. If you want to see love and
grace and forgiveness and fellowship, you'll
see it. But if you want to see condemnation and
misogyny and women as second -class citizens
and homophobia, if you want to see violence being
okay and I'm better than other people, you'll
see that too. Bible's a mirror. Your book ends
with the last sentence, love is the only religion
that works. That's so beautiful. And I've been
thinking that once you enter in the boundaries
of gospel nonviolence, I refuse to kill or retaliate
or support war. Then we begin to... breathe and
can become people of universal love. Tell me
about the religion of love and this vision and
where the hope for you is living in and spreading
and proclaiming this universal love and the practicalities
of that, because universal hate is not working.
No, and nor is universal indifference. I mean,
look, I think spiritual people use religion to
become better people. Fundamentalists use religion
to pretend they're better than other people.
And I do believe that love is the only thing
that will save this country. Love for America
and love from America. Authentic Christianity
is not looking to dominate anything. If you're
trying to have your religion on top. You're not
following Jesus. Jesus is constantly telling
us to go beyond our religion's rules into a deeper
kind of love. And I say it in the book. It's
not just a form of affection, this love. It's
not some passive, permissive state. This is an
action verb love with all of its challenges and
discipline and healing. And it's not always going
to be rewarding. And it's not always going to
feel good. And the people we are called to love
are not always going to look like the Dickens
characters we think they're supposed to be. And
they're not always going to be grateful. And
that's why it's picking up a cross and carrying
this guy because we need people willing to take
a punch in the name of love. So that's why I'm
here. That's why I respect the work you do. And
that's, you know, all I can do is just say, this
is what Jesus says. Either you believe it or
you don't. But if you don't believe it, don't
pretend you're on his side. Is there anything
else you'd like to say before we end? I'm just
so grateful to you, John. You are just such an
inspiration and you consistently remind us, consistently
remind us to just focus on the love. And in that
sense, you know, you prove that the only way
to be a true conservative Christian is to be
a flaming pro -love liberal. So thank you for
what you do. Well, thank you, John Fuglesang,
for being with me today. And I hope everyone
gets this great new book, Separation of Church
and Hate. And thank you, friends, for listening
to the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. You can hear
more podcasts and find other upcoming Zoom programs
at www .beatitudescenter .org. Please consider
offering a donation to support this free work.
And if you can, maybe leave some positive feedback
or review at the National Catholic Reporter or
Apple or Spotify or YouTube or whatever platform
you use. And most of all, friends, please help
spread the word by telling other friends and
churchgoers and everyone. you know about this
podcast so the word can spread. And may the God
of peace bless you all. Keep on following the
non -binary Jesus one day at a time. See you
next time.