WEBVTT 00:00:14.640 --> 00:00:17.539 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:17.539 --> 00:00:20.579 John, Fr. John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:20.579 --> 00:00:23.160 with my friend, Archbishop John Wester of the 00:00:23.160 --> 00:00:27.059 Archdiocese of Santa Fe, New Mexico. This is 00:00:27.059 --> 00:00:31.920 a project of www .beatitudescenter .org, where 00:00:31.920 --> 00:00:34.600 you can find many other podcasts and regular 00:00:34.600 --> 00:00:37.880 Zoom programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and 00:00:37.880 --> 00:00:40.820 practicing nonviolence and working for a more 00:00:40.820 --> 00:00:44.740 just, more nonviolent world. So let's begin with 00:00:44.740 --> 00:00:47.700 a little prayer as usual, and I invite our listeners, 00:00:47.759 --> 00:00:49.780 wherever you are, just to take a deep breath 00:00:49.780 --> 00:00:55.439 and to relax and recenter yourselves and enter 00:00:55.439 --> 00:00:58.240 again into the presence of the God of peace who 00:00:58.240 --> 00:01:01.719 loves you infinitely and personally and everyone 00:01:01.719 --> 00:01:04.780 everywhere. And let's welcome the nonviolent 00:01:04.780 --> 00:01:08.819 Jesus here with us and ask for the grace to follow 00:01:08.819 --> 00:01:12.180 the nonviolent Jesus more faithfully and do God's 00:01:12.180 --> 00:01:18.620 will. God of peace, thank you for all the blessings 00:01:18.620 --> 00:01:21.480 of life, love, and peace that you give us. Be 00:01:21.480 --> 00:01:24.019 with us now as we reflect together on your call 00:01:24.019 --> 00:01:27.079 to follow the nonviolent Jesus and work for a 00:01:27.079 --> 00:01:30.959 more nonviolent, more just world. Bless us, inspire 00:01:30.959 --> 00:01:34.439 us, disarm us, strengthen us, and send us out 00:01:34.439 --> 00:01:37.239 to do your will and to do our part to help end 00:01:37.239 --> 00:01:41.239 poverty, racism, greed, injustice, war, and especially 00:01:41.239 --> 00:01:44.120 nuclear weapons and environmental destruction. 00:01:45.019 --> 00:01:47.420 that we might be your holy beatitude people, 00:01:47.719 --> 00:01:50.500 your holy peacemakers, and welcome your reign 00:01:50.500 --> 00:01:54.519 of universal love, nonviolence, and peace on 00:01:54.519 --> 00:01:58.319 earth. In Jesus' name, amen. It's a pleasure 00:01:58.319 --> 00:02:01.019 to welcome my great friend, Archbishop John Wester 00:02:01.019 --> 00:02:05.260 of the Archdiocese of Santa Fe, New Mexico, which 00:02:05.260 --> 00:02:08.060 takes up most of the state. And he's talking 00:02:08.060 --> 00:02:11.419 with us from his office in Albuquerque, New Mexico 00:02:11.419 --> 00:02:17.759 on January 11th, 2022. I think he changed the 00:02:17.759 --> 00:02:20.780 U .S. Catholic Church when he issued a major 00:02:20.780 --> 00:02:23.879 document, a pastoral letter called Living in 00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:26.719 the Light of Christ's Peace, A Conversation Toward 00:02:26.719 --> 00:02:29.379 Nuclear Disarmament. It's the first official 00:02:29.379 --> 00:02:32.319 document in U .S. church history calling for 00:02:32.319 --> 00:02:35.139 the total abolition of nuclear weapons. And what's 00:02:35.139 --> 00:02:37.159 more, it comes from the land where the atomic 00:02:37.159 --> 00:02:40.719 bomb was invented and where all nuclear weapons 00:02:40.719 --> 00:02:43.479 ever since have continued to be made and maintained. 00:02:44.330 --> 00:02:48.349 at Los Alamos, New Mexico. Here's a quote from 00:02:48.349 --> 00:02:51.930 the letter. We can no longer deny or ignore the 00:02:51.930 --> 00:02:54.449 dangerous predicament we have created for ourselves 00:02:54.449 --> 00:02:57.830 with a new nuclear arms race, one that is arguably 00:02:57.830 --> 00:03:01.340 more dangerous than the past Cold War. In the 00:03:01.340 --> 00:03:03.780 face of increasing threats from Russia, China, 00:03:03.879 --> 00:03:06.439 and elsewhere, I point out that a nuclear arms 00:03:06.439 --> 00:03:10.099 race is inherently self -perpetuating, a vicious 00:03:10.099 --> 00:03:13.300 spiral that prompts progressively destabilizing 00:03:13.300 --> 00:03:16.520 actions and reactions by all parties, including 00:03:16.520 --> 00:03:19.960 our own country. We need nuclear arms control, 00:03:20.199 --> 00:03:23.819 not an escalating nuclear arms race. Further, 00:03:23.939 --> 00:03:27.340 we need to figure out concrete steps toward abolishing 00:03:27.340 --> 00:03:29.800 nuclear weapons and permanently ending the nuclear 00:03:29.800 --> 00:03:32.870 threat. If we care about humanity, if we care 00:03:32.870 --> 00:03:35.129 about our planet, if we care about the God of 00:03:35.129 --> 00:03:37.849 peace and human conscience, then we must start 00:03:37.849 --> 00:03:40.930 a public conversation on these urgent questions 00:03:40.930 --> 00:03:43.949 and find a new path toward nuclear disarmament. 00:03:44.150 --> 00:03:46.810 I invite all of us to step into the light of 00:03:46.810 --> 00:03:49.789 Christ and walk together toward a new future 00:03:49.789 --> 00:03:52.530 of peace, a new promised land of peace, a new 00:03:52.530 --> 00:03:55.210 culture of peace and nonviolence, where we all 00:03:55.210 --> 00:03:57.650 might learn to live in peace as sisters and brothers 00:03:57.650 --> 00:04:01.699 on this beautiful planet. common home. If you 00:04:01.699 --> 00:04:04.280 haven't read or seen the document, I urge you 00:04:04.280 --> 00:04:07.860 to go to his Archdiocesan website and read it. 00:04:07.900 --> 00:04:11.960 It's all there at www, I'll say it and then spell 00:04:11.960 --> 00:04:17.180 it, archdiosf .org. That's A -R -C -H -D -I -O 00:04:17.180 --> 00:04:21.259 -S -F dot O -R -G. And Pax Christi has published 00:04:21.259 --> 00:04:23.180 a beautiful hard copy of it, which you could 00:04:23.180 --> 00:04:26.810 get. Archbishop John Wester became Archbishop 00:04:26.810 --> 00:04:29.589 of the Archdiocese of Santa Fe, New Mexico in 00:04:29.589 --> 00:04:32.790 2015. Before that, he served as the Bishop of 00:04:32.790 --> 00:04:35.410 Salt Lake City, and before that, the Auxiliary 00:04:35.410 --> 00:04:39.990 Bishop of San Francisco. Last month, so I'm not 00:04:39.990 --> 00:04:43.449 sure when this will post, but in August 2025, 00:04:43.990 --> 00:04:47.410 he led an historic delegation of U .S. bishops 00:04:47.410 --> 00:04:51.319 and cardinals. to Japan to mark the 80th anniversary 00:04:51.319 --> 00:04:54.339 of the U .S. atomic bombing of Hiroshima and 00:04:54.339 --> 00:04:56.819 Japan. I haven't talked to him myself about the 00:04:56.819 --> 00:04:59.160 trip, which he called a pilgrimage of peace, 00:04:59.220 --> 00:05:01.360 so I'm happy to have him here and eager to hear 00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:04.019 about it. Archbishop John Wester, welcome to 00:05:04.019 --> 00:05:07.339 the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. Thank you. Thank 00:05:07.339 --> 00:05:09.220 you, John, very much. It's so good to be with 00:05:09.220 --> 00:05:12.420 you again. Thank you. So before we get into the 00:05:12.420 --> 00:05:15.199 story of your past August trip for the 80th anniversary, 00:05:16.300 --> 00:05:19.959 In the pastoral letter, the first page, you tell 00:05:19.959 --> 00:05:23.019 about your first trip to Hiroshima. And it's 00:05:23.019 --> 00:05:25.860 an amazing, powerful story because there you 00:05:25.860 --> 00:05:29.279 are one day in Hiroshima at their atomic bomb 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:32.439 museum. And the next day you're back at Santa 00:05:32.439 --> 00:05:35.819 Fe and you have company and you go up to Los 00:05:35.819 --> 00:05:39.740 Alamos and you visit the U .S. Atomic Bomb Museum. 00:05:40.220 --> 00:05:44.759 Tell everybody about that day. Well, it was an 00:05:44.759 --> 00:05:48.480 eye -opener for me, John, because I was fresh 00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:51.180 in my mind and heart that I visited Japan, my 00:05:51.180 --> 00:05:55.220 first one in 2017, and seeing the devastation, 00:05:55.220 --> 00:05:59.720 the human suffering untold, hard to describe 00:05:59.720 --> 00:06:02.899 human suffering that took place in Hiroshima 00:06:02.899 --> 00:06:07.339 and Nagasaki. in august of 1945 and then coming 00:06:07.339 --> 00:06:11.980 back to santa fe and just really um maybe 100 00:06:11.980 --> 00:06:15.639 200 yards from palace avenue where the scientists 00:06:15.639 --> 00:06:18.600 went in the front door and went out the back 00:06:18.600 --> 00:06:22.300 door and got on a bus up to los alamos and invented 00:06:22.300 --> 00:06:27.839 the atomic bomb and and so i realized my goodness 00:06:27.839 --> 00:06:31.480 i've seen both sides both ends of this the where 00:06:31.480 --> 00:06:35.579 it began and where it was and the only time it 00:06:35.579 --> 00:06:39.339 was detonated in a civilian population like that. 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:45.019 And so it just struck me that I really felt strongly 00:06:45.019 --> 00:06:50.439 that the Lord was prompting me to do something 00:06:50.439 --> 00:06:53.639 about this, to make this more known and to have 00:06:53.639 --> 00:06:56.920 a voice at the table in talking about multilateral 00:06:56.920 --> 00:07:02.100 verifiable nuclear disarmament. So you've just 00:07:02.100 --> 00:07:06.779 returned again for the August 6th to 9th, 80th 00:07:06.779 --> 00:07:10.259 anniversary of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. You went 00:07:10.259 --> 00:07:13.639 with Cardinal McElroy, Cardinal Cupich, the Archbishop 00:07:13.639 --> 00:07:16.279 of Seattle, and apparently lots of students and 00:07:16.279 --> 00:07:19.540 faculty from Notre Dame, Marquette. I'm not sure 00:07:19.540 --> 00:07:22.480 where else. So take your time and tell us about 00:07:22.480 --> 00:07:25.620 the whole trip and what it was like and what 00:07:25.620 --> 00:07:28.579 you hoped from it and where the next steps are. 00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:34.199 Well, yes, it's hard to describe in one sense. 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:38.060 It's the 80th commemoration of the bombing in 00:07:38.060 --> 00:07:42.339 1945 of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And so it's not 00:07:42.339 --> 00:07:45.519 exactly a happy moment. And there were a lot 00:07:45.519 --> 00:07:48.459 of hibakusha there, as your listeners know, I'm 00:07:48.459 --> 00:07:52.259 sure, the survivors of the bomb. Archbishop Takami, 00:07:52.360 --> 00:07:55.399 whom you know, John, he's a wonderful man and 00:07:55.399 --> 00:07:59.079 he's a great guy. And he was in his mother's 00:07:59.079 --> 00:08:03.600 womb in Nagasaki when it was bombed. And he has 00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:07.420 a doctor friend who was older and there was many, 00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:10.240 most of them now, you know, probably around 10, 00:08:10.399 --> 00:08:14.259 11, 12 years old or so when this happened. And 00:08:14.259 --> 00:08:18.920 so it was a coming together of many peoples from 00:08:18.920 --> 00:08:22.800 many backgrounds. for many reasons, to commemorate 00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:26.519 this moment. And really, the basic message is 00:08:26.519 --> 00:08:30.759 to commemorate it so that we can advocate that 00:08:30.759 --> 00:08:34.360 it never happens again, that our world is safe 00:08:34.360 --> 00:08:37.580 from these horrendous, incredibly destructive 00:08:37.580 --> 00:08:40.919 weapons, far more destructive than they were 00:08:40.919 --> 00:08:45.120 in 1945. and far more dangerous with artificial 00:08:45.120 --> 00:08:48.240 intelligence and hypersonic delivery systems 00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:53.820 and just the state of the world today and this 00:08:53.820 --> 00:08:57.100 very difficult time we're living in. So clearly 00:08:57.100 --> 00:08:59.360 there was a lot of purpose to our meeting. It 00:08:59.360 --> 00:09:02.100 was not just to commemorate the past, but it 00:09:02.100 --> 00:09:05.340 was really to preserve the present and to build 00:09:05.340 --> 00:09:08.730 for the future. This is our pilgrimage of faith, 00:09:08.889 --> 00:09:11.669 you know, trying to do all those things. And 00:09:11.669 --> 00:09:13.990 it was wonderful to come in with a lot of liturgies, 00:09:13.990 --> 00:09:18.710 a lot of speeches. We had the, as you mentioned, 00:09:18.789 --> 00:09:20.990 John, we had the students, which was really encouraging, 00:09:21.090 --> 00:09:23.590 a lot, about 30 students from the United States 00:09:23.590 --> 00:09:28.370 and Japan, and mainly from Loyola in Chicago, 00:09:28.610 --> 00:09:33.409 and a couple students from... in New Mexico, 00:09:33.610 --> 00:09:37.649 UNM, and also Notre Dame University. And their 00:09:37.649 --> 00:09:39.970 professors came with them, some of them, and 00:09:39.970 --> 00:09:41.909 it was just wonderful to have their presence. 00:09:41.950 --> 00:09:48.129 They were taking it all in. And I'll be 75 in 00:09:48.129 --> 00:09:53.450 a month or two. And I was admiring these students 00:09:53.450 --> 00:09:56.129 sitting through these speeches after speeches. 00:09:56.350 --> 00:10:00.139 We like to give speeches. But they were all taking 00:10:00.139 --> 00:10:02.899 it in and going to the museums and celebrating 00:10:02.899 --> 00:10:06.820 the liturgies with us. And really, I think it 00:10:06.820 --> 00:10:11.240 was very moving to see them as they began to 00:10:11.240 --> 00:10:17.259 see in a more visceral, palpable way what we're 00:10:17.259 --> 00:10:20.100 talking about with nuclear weapons. You know, 00:10:20.139 --> 00:10:23.059 we've been given a narrative for so long, so 00:10:23.059 --> 00:10:26.820 many decades. that nuclear weapons are the keepers 00:10:26.820 --> 00:10:29.480 of the peace. And so people, when they hear nuclear 00:10:29.480 --> 00:10:33.399 weapons today, they think, oh, yes, that's deterrence, 00:10:33.419 --> 00:10:35.460 isn't it? That's what's keeping us keeping the 00:10:35.460 --> 00:10:39.879 peace. Well, that narrative is not one that I 00:10:39.879 --> 00:10:42.379 agree with and that many of us agree with. And 00:10:42.379 --> 00:10:44.779 certainly you, John, and your wonderful work 00:10:44.779 --> 00:10:48.039 with peacemaking and the gospel of peace and 00:10:48.039 --> 00:10:51.039 the Beatitude Center have promoted that same 00:10:51.039 --> 00:10:54.409 message that we've been lulled. into that sense 00:10:54.409 --> 00:10:56.809 that nuclear weapons are keeping us safe. When 00:10:56.809 --> 00:11:00.870 in fact, nuclear weapons are really the biggest 00:11:00.870 --> 00:11:03.129 threat, really, if you think about it, on a large 00:11:03.129 --> 00:11:07.110 scale that we face in the world today. And the 00:11:07.110 --> 00:11:09.470 very thing that we're told is going to keep us 00:11:09.470 --> 00:11:12.710 safe is really the biggest threat to humanity 00:11:12.710 --> 00:11:16.490 that we have in human civilization. And so this 00:11:16.490 --> 00:11:19.230 is part of our message to get that across to 00:11:19.230 --> 00:11:21.860 our young people, to everybody. who will listen, 00:11:22.039 --> 00:11:27.340 that we need to remember this so that we never 00:11:27.340 --> 00:11:31.559 underestimate the power of nuclear weapons, the 00:11:31.559 --> 00:11:34.200 threat of nuclear weapons, and how important 00:11:34.200 --> 00:11:37.919 it is to advocate for their complete abolition 00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:42.860 in our world, for verifiable multilateral disarmament. 00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:47.860 And so that was Cardinal McElroy and Cardinal 00:11:47.860 --> 00:11:51.409 Cupich both gave excellent talks. I gave a talk, 00:11:51.470 --> 00:11:55.389 Archbishop Etchin from Seattle gave a talk. We 00:11:55.389 --> 00:11:57.809 have many from Japan, obviously, that gave wonderful 00:11:57.809 --> 00:12:00.769 talks. We had translators there. And different 00:12:00.769 --> 00:12:03.389 religions, representing different religions, 00:12:03.690 --> 00:12:07.149 giving talks. We had an interfaith meeting. We 00:12:07.149 --> 00:12:09.730 have it every year. And Archbishop Takami is 00:12:09.730 --> 00:12:12.690 now the head of it, this interfaith committee 00:12:12.690 --> 00:12:16.110 that meets every year for a symposium in the 00:12:16.110 --> 00:12:18.509 afternoon and then followed with a dinner. And 00:12:18.509 --> 00:12:21.970 so it was a wonderful opportunity. We've become 00:12:21.970 --> 00:12:25.029 good friends with the Bishop Shirahama of Hiroshima 00:12:25.029 --> 00:12:28.450 and Bishop Nakamura of Nagasaki. And as I say, 00:12:28.450 --> 00:12:32.029 Archbishop Takami, Archbishop Nakamura and Takami 00:12:32.029 --> 00:12:37.009 in Nagasaki. And this year we had the group worked 00:12:37.009 --> 00:12:40.750 very hard to restore the bell in the tower there, 00:12:40.789 --> 00:12:43.830 the church, the cathedral and the Orami Cathedral 00:12:43.830 --> 00:12:47.000 in Nagasaki. And you know, of course, that the 00:12:47.000 --> 00:12:51.100 bells of Nagasaki and the song of Nagasaki are 00:12:51.100 --> 00:12:53.720 famous books that have been written about Dr. 00:12:53.820 --> 00:12:57.679 Nagai. One was his own book, his memoir, and 00:12:57.679 --> 00:13:00.639 the shorter one, the one was about him. But so 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:03.220 it was really telling to have the beautiful to 00:13:03.220 --> 00:13:06.059 have that bell after 80 years restored. The cathedral, 00:13:06.059 --> 00:13:08.919 of course, has been restored and for many years 00:13:08.919 --> 00:13:13.340 now. And that was a beautiful, beautiful place 00:13:13.340 --> 00:13:17.779 to be, to remember and to pray and to bring us 00:13:17.779 --> 00:13:19.960 together. And we, of course, a lot of the students 00:13:19.960 --> 00:13:23.179 went to the Jesuit division where, you know, 00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:26.360 Father Arrupe was when the bomb hit Nagasaki. 00:13:26.419 --> 00:13:30.179 He was injured in the blast, not mortally, not 00:13:30.179 --> 00:13:32.580 seriously. But and then with his medical background, 00:13:32.759 --> 00:13:35.679 he went around Nagasaki ministering to people. 00:13:35.820 --> 00:13:40.419 And so they were able to. uh visit that that 00:13:40.419 --> 00:13:43.820 the novitiate and then also we had uh at the 00:13:43.820 --> 00:13:48.139 uh orami um cathedral that it used to be the 00:13:48.139 --> 00:13:50.759 it's not a cathedral today but it was the the 00:13:50.759 --> 00:13:54.559 center it was the church where in nagasaki remember 00:13:54.559 --> 00:13:58.299 that in japan uh catholics christians would be 00:13:58.299 --> 00:14:01.500 um murdered if they were caught for many years 00:14:01.500 --> 00:14:04.299 there was a whole period there of the persecution 00:14:04.299 --> 00:14:08.200 of christian japan and And and so many were in 00:14:08.200 --> 00:14:10.000 hiding. Many of the Catholics were in hiding. 00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:13.899 And this is the church where many of the Catholics 00:14:13.899 --> 00:14:16.559 heard the Catholic priest that the Japan had 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:19.279 now lifted the persecution. They had stopped 00:14:19.279 --> 00:14:22.460 it. And and so many people, many missionaries 00:14:22.460 --> 00:14:24.659 started coming back. They heard there was a Catholic 00:14:24.659 --> 00:14:27.250 priest at this church and they went up. to see, 00:14:27.409 --> 00:14:29.769 and at great risk to their personal safety, they 00:14:29.769 --> 00:14:33.429 didn't know. As far as they knew, it could have 00:14:33.429 --> 00:14:35.490 been some kind of a trap or something for them 00:14:35.490 --> 00:14:38.210 to come out of hiding. But they had great courage, 00:14:38.269 --> 00:14:40.029 and they went up there and talked to the priest, 00:14:40.169 --> 00:14:42.169 and he showed them the statue of Our Blessed 00:14:42.169 --> 00:14:45.190 Mother, the statue of Mary. And that statue is 00:14:45.190 --> 00:14:47.490 there today, the statue that they all gazed upon. 00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:50.120 And they knew when they saw that, that this was 00:14:50.120 --> 00:14:52.879 truly a Catholic priest who had come there to 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:56.539 open up the parish again and bring in the sacraments. 00:14:56.659 --> 00:14:58.960 So there are a lot of these kinds of stories, 00:14:59.259 --> 00:15:02.000 these kinds of realities of people sharing stories 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:06.539 that we were able to reflect upon. And basically 00:15:06.539 --> 00:15:09.720 just people of goodwill. coming together from 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:11.580 different religions, different walks of life, 00:15:11.740 --> 00:15:16.600 to promote the gospel of peace, to promote us 00:15:16.600 --> 00:15:19.000 living together in harmony with one another. 00:15:19.620 --> 00:15:21.980 Principally, though, with the focus of getting 00:15:21.980 --> 00:15:24.779 rid of these terrible weapons that threaten us 00:15:24.779 --> 00:15:27.220 today. Thanks, Archbishop. You know, for those 00:15:27.220 --> 00:15:29.919 who are listening who are not from New Mexico 00:15:29.919 --> 00:15:35.960 or from anywhere else, I cannot stress. how shocking 00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:39.360 this is to hear Archbishop Wester calmly talk 00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:42.840 like this. So think about it. He's the Archbishop 00:15:42.840 --> 00:15:48.500 of New Mexico. And, you know, there he is meeting 00:15:48.500 --> 00:15:51.460 with all the bishops and leaders of Japan in 00:15:51.460 --> 00:15:56.309 Hiroshima. You know, just 15 years ago, after 00:15:56.309 --> 00:15:59.629 living in New Mexico for 20 years, I was banned 00:15:59.629 --> 00:16:02.509 by the previous archbishop from praying for peace 00:16:02.509 --> 00:16:06.629 at Los Alamos. And then, you know, had my faculties 00:16:06.629 --> 00:16:09.789 removed publicly for because I was calling for 00:16:09.789 --> 00:16:11.669 nuclear disarmament and getting death threats. 00:16:12.070 --> 00:16:16.190 Now, archbishop is going over there. Tell me 00:16:16.190 --> 00:16:18.509 a little bit. We don't have too much time, but 00:16:18.509 --> 00:16:23.200 about your work with. to build solidarity with 00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:27.500 the Japanese bishops and the diocese there with 00:16:27.500 --> 00:16:30.399 New Mexico. Because to me, that is really creative 00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:33.120 peacemaking. And it's almost like about time. 00:16:33.299 --> 00:16:37.399 Here, 80 years later, the churches in Japan and 00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:39.980 the churches in New Mexico are coming together 00:16:39.980 --> 00:16:43.279 in reconciliation for the first time under your 00:16:43.279 --> 00:16:46.129 leadership. Well, yes, thank you for bringing 00:16:46.129 --> 00:16:48.950 that up, John, because that's really been one 00:16:48.950 --> 00:16:51.909 of the fruits of the letter, which, by the way, 00:16:51.929 --> 00:16:55.330 was your idea. Thank you again for suggesting 00:16:55.330 --> 00:16:58.429 to me writing that letter, that pastoral letter, 00:16:58.490 --> 00:17:01.629 because I think that's really what was the springboard 00:17:01.629 --> 00:17:05.910 for all of this. And so Archbishop Etchen, I 00:17:05.910 --> 00:17:08.809 saw, gave a statement against nuclear weapons. 00:17:08.869 --> 00:17:11.630 He has the Trident submarines in his archdiocese, 00:17:11.630 --> 00:17:15.039 any one of which has enough firepower. to completely 00:17:15.039 --> 00:17:17.700 destroy human civilization throughout the world. 00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:21.519 It's hard for my mind still, after all this time, 00:17:21.559 --> 00:17:24.400 to grasp that, that each one of those submarines 00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:28.319 has enough nuclear firepower to destroy all of 00:17:28.319 --> 00:17:31.259 human civilization in the world overnight. And 00:17:31.259 --> 00:17:34.940 so he came out strongly, and I invited him to 00:17:34.940 --> 00:17:38.299 join me in inviting the bishops of Japan and 00:17:38.299 --> 00:17:40.720 Hiroshima and Nagasaki to form what we call... 00:17:41.019 --> 00:17:43.700 The Partnership for a World Without Nuclear Weapons. 00:17:43.859 --> 00:17:46.779 Oh, wow. Partnership for a World Without Nuclear 00:17:46.779 --> 00:17:51.319 Weapons. We've got bylaws. Really? Yeah, and 00:17:51.319 --> 00:17:54.900 we're inviting people to participate. Organizations 00:17:54.900 --> 00:17:58.180 can participate either as endorsing or participating 00:17:58.180 --> 00:18:01.440 members. And really what that means is that if 00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:03.740 you're endorsing, that means we can put your 00:18:03.740 --> 00:18:06.650 name on our website and say that. You know, your 00:18:06.650 --> 00:18:09.089 Catholic group, diocese, parish organization, 00:18:09.650 --> 00:18:14.029 maybe a parish peace and justice group is endorsing 00:18:14.029 --> 00:18:16.769 our partnership. Or you can participate. And 00:18:16.769 --> 00:18:19.269 that would mean that once a year, it's very simple, 00:18:19.329 --> 00:18:21.809 once a year, you would be on a Zoom meeting and 00:18:21.809 --> 00:18:25.269 we'd all gather and have, you know, a meeting, 00:18:25.369 --> 00:18:27.849 an annual meeting and share some highlights of 00:18:27.849 --> 00:18:29.829 best practices, some of the highlights of things 00:18:29.829 --> 00:18:33.789 that have been done. So Bishop Shirahama is a 00:18:33.789 --> 00:18:38.619 Sulpician. priest, become bishop. And he's done 00:18:38.619 --> 00:18:42.000 a lot of the legwork on getting the bylaws ready 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:47.759 and Archbishop Nakamura and Paul and I assisting. 00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:51.559 And so it's been really a wonderful experience. 00:18:51.619 --> 00:18:53.500 We've come to know each other. We've built friendships. 00:18:53.619 --> 00:18:56.539 Gee, that's great. Yeah, it's just been wonderful. 00:18:56.539 --> 00:18:58.819 If people wanted to check it out, where would 00:18:58.819 --> 00:19:01.400 they go? What website? Well, the website would 00:19:01.400 --> 00:19:04.799 just go for WWW Partnership for a World Without 00:19:04.799 --> 00:19:07.759 Nuclear Weapons. That's a long title, John. Yes, 00:19:07.859 --> 00:19:12.160 PWNW is how we abbreviate it. So is the website 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:18.339 PWNW .org? Right. Now, let me ask you, you know, 00:19:18.339 --> 00:19:21.140 I've told you this, that I'm not allowed in Japan 00:19:21.140 --> 00:19:24.180 because I'm an ex -con for having hammered on 00:19:24.180 --> 00:19:27.099 a nuclear weapon. And I've been invited there, 00:19:27.119 --> 00:19:29.700 invited to speak at Hiroshima several times over 00:19:29.700 --> 00:19:33.119 the decades. But, you know, their constitution 00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:35.579 doesn't allow convicted felons from the U .S. 00:19:35.579 --> 00:19:38.920 in. So there you go. So I've never been. What 00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:42.940 was the actual moment like? I presume it was. 00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:46.240 In Hiroshima, was it at 8 a .m. that morning? 00:19:46.700 --> 00:19:50.039 And was silence? How many people? Did they have 00:19:50.039 --> 00:19:54.460 speeches outdoor there in the Peace Park? Right. 00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:56.940 So in Hiroshima, around 11, I think it's 8, 11, 00:19:57.119 --> 00:19:59.859 I forget the exact time. Around 8 in the morning, 00:20:00.019 --> 00:20:02.299 they always, remember what we're doing, prayer 00:20:02.299 --> 00:20:05.299 service, civic service, there's a pause of silence. 00:20:05.640 --> 00:20:10.859 And Nagasaki is left for 11. And we, so in Hiroshima, 00:20:10.940 --> 00:20:13.839 we begin, typically this is our third time there 00:20:13.839 --> 00:20:17.819 with this experience. It's an interfaith service 00:20:17.819 --> 00:20:22.700 at the Peace Park there. We have, there's a table 00:20:22.700 --> 00:20:25.619 set up with many flowers. And keep in mind, this 00:20:25.619 --> 00:20:28.859 is August, so it's very hot. Very humid, even 00:20:28.859 --> 00:20:32.539 at 6 a .m. It's quite hot and humid. And you 00:20:32.539 --> 00:20:35.740 can hear the crickets and all that. And of course, 00:20:35.740 --> 00:20:37.839 Japan's a beautiful country and the people are 00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:41.039 beautiful people. And then we, so the different 00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:44.339 religions come forward. We go, Paul and I usually 00:20:44.339 --> 00:20:48.220 typically come forward with others. And we pray 00:20:48.220 --> 00:20:50.980 the prayer of St. Francis. And we have other 00:20:50.980 --> 00:20:53.480 prayers. And then we, they have a table and there's 00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:57.029 pitchers of water. Because the victims of the 00:20:57.029 --> 00:20:59.890 bombing shortly before they died experienced 00:20:59.890 --> 00:21:04.049 severe thirst, excruciating thirst, and they 00:21:04.049 --> 00:21:06.990 were clamoring for water. And so we have pictures 00:21:06.990 --> 00:21:10.549 of water. And of course, there's a great devotion. 00:21:11.259 --> 00:21:13.599 to the ancestors in japan and so there's kind 00:21:13.599 --> 00:21:15.940 of that that sense of providing you know that 00:21:15.940 --> 00:21:19.680 now and their flowers of course and uh and then 00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:21.019 the different religions have their different 00:21:21.019 --> 00:21:23.740 customs and then we go over to the main event 00:21:23.740 --> 00:21:26.900 if you will uh the larger event anyway and that 00:21:26.900 --> 00:21:29.619 would be the civic event where they have speeches 00:21:29.619 --> 00:21:32.799 and choirs of children singing and the prime 00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:35.720 minister is typically there other ambassadors 00:21:35.720 --> 00:21:40.410 of different countries are there Different religious 00:21:40.410 --> 00:21:43.150 heads, people of that sort are there. But it's 00:21:43.150 --> 00:21:45.089 quite a thousand, thousands of people are there. 00:21:45.190 --> 00:21:47.390 It's a national holiday, of course. People are 00:21:47.390 --> 00:21:50.849 off work. Wow. It's just quite an event. And 00:21:50.849 --> 00:21:54.410 a lot of media? Yes, there's a lot of media there. 00:21:54.470 --> 00:21:56.890 A lot of security, as you imagine. A lot of security, 00:21:57.190 --> 00:22:01.589 a lot of media. But I must say, the whole atmosphere, 00:22:01.869 --> 00:22:06.319 it's very reverent. It's very prayerful. There's 00:22:06.319 --> 00:22:10.000 a sense of the somberness of what it is that 00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:13.619 we're commemorating. Yeah. So let's talk a little 00:22:13.619 --> 00:22:17.880 bit about the pastoral letter. What were you 00:22:17.880 --> 00:22:20.640 hoping to accomplish? And now it's, you know 00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:26.420 what, four years later maybe. And, you know, 00:22:26.539 --> 00:22:29.940 it came out. Pax Christi published thousands 00:22:29.940 --> 00:22:32.779 of copies. And then it seemed to me, John, you 00:22:32.779 --> 00:22:35.319 just... took off speaking all over the country 00:22:35.319 --> 00:22:38.039 and the world, even the United Nations, because 00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:43.059 it opened so many doors. But then there was also 00:22:43.059 --> 00:22:45.119 the interesting question, what could happen to 00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:47.819 New Mexico? You know, because there's so many 00:22:47.819 --> 00:22:50.720 thousands of Catholics and Christians involved 00:22:50.720 --> 00:22:53.380 in making nuclear weapons all over the state, 00:22:53.460 --> 00:22:56.819 one of the poorest in the country. What kind 00:22:56.819 --> 00:22:59.279 of reaction have you gotten all these years later 00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:02.319 in the state from the politicians, the labs, 00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:06.839 and so forth, and globally in the church? So 00:23:06.839 --> 00:23:10.980 talk about the reaction and what it's been like 00:23:10.980 --> 00:23:14.859 for you. Well, the purpose of the letter, in 00:23:14.859 --> 00:23:19.140 my mind, was always to initiate and or sustain 00:23:19.140 --> 00:23:23.279 a conversation about nuclear disarmament. Typically, 00:23:23.299 --> 00:23:27.200 the conversation centers around the two poles 00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:30.279 of deterrence and disarmament. That's kind of 00:23:30.279 --> 00:23:32.420 the two sides of the argument, if you will. It's 00:23:32.420 --> 00:23:35.140 more complicated than that, but that kind of 00:23:35.140 --> 00:23:39.099 sums it up. And so I wanted to just have a conversation. 00:23:39.299 --> 00:23:43.660 I wanted to be clear that I'm not trying to... 00:23:44.109 --> 00:23:47.089 engage in this heated debate and put anybody 00:23:47.089 --> 00:23:51.589 down or call people warmongers or anything. My 00:23:51.589 --> 00:23:55.950 sense is that if people of goodwill come together 00:23:55.950 --> 00:23:58.470 and discuss the situation of nuclear weapons, 00:23:58.730 --> 00:24:02.329 it will naturally lead to the conclusion that 00:24:02.329 --> 00:24:07.009 we must disarm. And I think it will also remind 00:24:07.009 --> 00:24:08.730 us that we have done that. I mean, in the past 00:24:08.730 --> 00:24:10.710 with Kennedy and Khrushchev initiating that in 00:24:10.710 --> 00:24:14.069 the early 60s. We went from over 80 ,000 nuclear 00:24:14.069 --> 00:24:17.369 weapons to the 13 ,000 plus we have today. But 00:24:17.369 --> 00:24:20.730 sadly, we're in a nuclear arms race today that's 00:24:20.730 --> 00:24:23.549 worse than the first one. And as I mentioned, 00:24:23.549 --> 00:24:26.529 with artificial intelligence and hypersonic delivery 00:24:26.529 --> 00:24:31.730 systems, etc. So my point was hopefully to join 00:24:31.730 --> 00:24:33.950 others. It's not just me, but to join others. 00:24:36.059 --> 00:24:39.619 building this conversation the reaction interestingly 00:24:39.619 --> 00:24:45.460 enough has not i have not received any um strong 00:24:45.460 --> 00:24:49.880 i mean i i guess anyway you we all some of us 00:24:49.880 --> 00:24:51.759 get hate mail from time to time on different 00:24:51.759 --> 00:24:55.380 issues i haven't gotten hate mail or really strong 00:24:55.380 --> 00:25:00.160 uh you know harsh email i'd say that the most 00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:05.920 common reaction is I would say perhaps indifference, 00:25:06.019 --> 00:25:11.220 mild interest, but nothing more than that. Either 00:25:11.220 --> 00:25:13.579 they really, really agree and they say, thank 00:25:13.579 --> 00:25:16.619 you so much for doing this, or they smile and 00:25:16.619 --> 00:25:18.519 say, oh, that's interesting. It reminds you of 00:25:18.519 --> 00:25:20.859 St. Paul, the Areopagus. Oh, you must touch it. 00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:23.140 We must talk about that some other time. They're 00:25:23.140 --> 00:25:26.880 kind of like, you know, putting it off. And so 00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:30.400 that's my... reason why we just have to keep 00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:33.440 engaging the conversation. Last September, we 00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:35.480 had a symposium at the University of New Mexico, 00:25:35.519 --> 00:25:37.900 and Cardinal McElroy came and gave a talk. We 00:25:37.900 --> 00:25:40.380 had Sig Hecker, the former head of LANL Labs, 00:25:40.579 --> 00:25:43.200 where the bomb was first created, and where they're 00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:46.079 currently building new pit cores for a completely 00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:50.759 new arsenal. And we've met with the head of Sandia 00:25:50.759 --> 00:25:53.940 Labs, and we've met with scientists. We've met 00:25:53.940 --> 00:25:55.779 with State Department officials. They were at 00:25:55.779 --> 00:25:59.750 this symposium at UNM. And my sense is that all 00:25:59.750 --> 00:26:02.250 of them agree that nobody wants a nuclear war. 00:26:02.410 --> 00:26:05.210 I mean, that would be just suicide. But where 00:26:05.210 --> 00:26:09.509 we seem to have disagreement is how do we prevent 00:26:09.509 --> 00:26:12.589 nuclear war? Our solution would be, yeah, get 00:26:12.589 --> 00:26:14.289 rid of the weapons and you can't have nuclear 00:26:14.289 --> 00:26:17.170 war. No nuclear weapons, no nuclear war. Easy. 00:26:18.450 --> 00:26:22.049 The other side, to put it that way, would say, 00:26:22.089 --> 00:26:26.539 no, we need these weapons to... to to keep us 00:26:26.539 --> 00:26:29.140 safe because no one would dare begin a war uh 00:26:29.140 --> 00:26:31.859 knowing that we have all these weapons of course 00:26:31.859 --> 00:26:35.440 they they don't take into account uh that we're 00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:38.480 human beings and the pencils have erasers and 00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:42.299 that uh you know uh you know uh the department 00:26:42.299 --> 00:26:45.380 of defense secretary of defense senator kennedy 00:26:45.380 --> 00:26:47.500 said the only reason we avoided nuclear war in 00:26:47.500 --> 00:26:52.019 62 in the cuban missile crisis was luck And luck 00:26:52.019 --> 00:26:55.759 is not a good strategy for saving our lives. 00:26:56.339 --> 00:26:59.339 So so that to me is kind of where the rubber 00:26:59.339 --> 00:27:02.640 meets the road, where we have to, you know, say, 00:27:02.740 --> 00:27:05.359 do we really think, you know, they I have to 00:27:05.359 --> 00:27:07.119 say another reaction, John, that I've gotten 00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:09.759 is that we're naive. Yeah, that's a very common 00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:12.619 one. Oh, you're just being naive. Yeah. But our 00:27:12.619 --> 00:27:15.150 response to that as well. Who's really naive? 00:27:15.210 --> 00:27:17.549 Those who think we can live with nuclear weapons 00:27:17.549 --> 00:27:19.289 or those who think we can live without them? 00:27:19.390 --> 00:27:24.329 I would suggest you. And meanwhile, there's Jesus 00:27:24.329 --> 00:27:28.829 that you and I claim to follow. So why I think 00:27:28.829 --> 00:27:32.640 you're... changed the church. And it was so frustrating 00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:35.880 to me in 1984 when the U .S. Catholic Bishops 00:27:35.880 --> 00:27:38.339 Peace Pastoral Letter came out. For those who 00:27:38.339 --> 00:27:41.819 may not remember, it was, you know, huge news 00:27:41.819 --> 00:27:44.039 because this had never happened before and Cardinal 00:27:44.039 --> 00:27:47.319 Bernadine was on the cover of Time. And it's 00:27:47.319 --> 00:27:50.079 the first statement anywhere in the world where... 00:27:50.940 --> 00:27:54.799 It's so divided. Half the letter says Jesus was 00:27:54.799 --> 00:27:56.920 totally nonviolent, and you can follow the nonviolent 00:27:56.920 --> 00:27:59.319 Jesus. The other half says, and so we should 00:27:59.319 --> 00:28:02.400 get rid of nuclear weapons, but maybe we need 00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:06.049 to really keep some because of deterrence. which 00:28:06.049 --> 00:28:08.609 I don't think works. Your letter comes along 00:28:08.609 --> 00:28:12.970 and says no to the whole thing of deterrence 00:28:12.970 --> 00:28:15.349 or the existence of nuclear weapons. And by the 00:28:15.349 --> 00:28:18.309 way, we are supposed to follow Jesus. My question 00:28:18.309 --> 00:28:22.410 is about Pope Francis, then Archbishop. He then 00:28:22.410 --> 00:28:25.509 in his last years, I never thought I'd live to 00:28:25.509 --> 00:28:29.269 see the things he did, but in particular about 00:28:29.269 --> 00:28:31.970 nuclear weapons and his own visit to Hiroshima, 00:28:32.130 --> 00:28:35.200 where he said, he's saying things like, There's 00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:38.660 no just war, but there's no deterrence anymore. 00:28:38.900 --> 00:28:42.019 That's not working, but it's not of the gospel. 00:28:42.579 --> 00:28:45.900 And I think he changed the directory of the church, 00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:48.640 and everybody's trying to pretend he didn't. 00:28:48.779 --> 00:28:51.500 What do you think about what Pope Francis did? 00:28:51.599 --> 00:28:54.299 Any thoughts on him and his work for peace and 00:28:54.299 --> 00:28:56.240 discernment? Well, I think you hit the nail on 00:28:56.240 --> 00:29:00.640 the head, John. I mean, Pope Francis dramatically 00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:07.180 and very... powerfully changed the whole discourse 00:29:07.180 --> 00:29:10.779 of the Catholic Church on nuclear weapons. Because 00:29:10.779 --> 00:29:14.059 in the document you quoted in 1983, the bishops 00:29:14.059 --> 00:29:16.900 allowed for deterrence. It's kind of like, well, 00:29:17.019 --> 00:29:19.359 okay, you know, we shouldn't have weapons, but 00:29:19.359 --> 00:29:21.599 we'll have it. But that's off the table now. 00:29:21.799 --> 00:29:24.819 I mean, the Pope's exact quote was even merely 00:29:24.819 --> 00:29:28.400 possessing nuclear weapons is immoral. And that's 00:29:28.400 --> 00:29:31.220 on a variety of fronts because... The weapons 00:29:31.220 --> 00:29:33.539 are already being used, even if they're not used. 00:29:33.619 --> 00:29:35.579 Look at what is happening in Russia and Ukraine. 00:29:35.980 --> 00:29:39.259 You know, Putin is using nuclear weapons as a 00:29:39.259 --> 00:29:44.019 threat. And it's really circumscribing the nature 00:29:44.019 --> 00:29:46.900 of that war. And not to mention the money that's 00:29:46.900 --> 00:29:49.140 spent on them that could be going to the poor. 00:29:49.220 --> 00:29:51.420 People are dying of starvation every day in our 00:29:51.420 --> 00:29:54.259 world. And here we are spending up to trillions 00:29:54.259 --> 00:29:57.359 of dollars on nuclear weapons. So there's so 00:29:57.359 --> 00:30:00.000 many reasons why the Pope is so on target. Even 00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:03.460 possessing of your weapons is immoral. Now, the 00:30:03.460 --> 00:30:06.420 interesting thing is, though, that this isn't 00:30:06.420 --> 00:30:08.420 an interesting what people choose to ignore. 00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:12.559 I mean, nobody says, I mean, I remember Cardinal 00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:15.279 McElroy years ago wrote an article in America 00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:18.900 Magazine in which he lamented the fact that we've 00:30:18.900 --> 00:30:22.960 become inured to war. We've become inured to 00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:28.720 violence and to... to starvation. Over 65 ,000 00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:31.500 people have died in Gaza. We're going to have 00:30:31.500 --> 00:30:35.339 a protest tomorrow in Albuquerque to continue 00:30:35.339 --> 00:30:39.099 to raise an awareness or sustain awareness of 00:30:39.099 --> 00:30:41.200 what's going on there because this is tragic. 00:30:41.319 --> 00:30:43.519 But we just, we read it and then we sip some 00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:45.779 more coffee and go on about our daily life. You 00:30:45.779 --> 00:30:49.000 know, these are things that we can't ignore. 00:30:49.200 --> 00:30:51.339 I'm not suggesting, I mean, what can any one 00:30:51.339 --> 00:30:54.599 of us do? We can't. change the trajectory by 00:30:54.599 --> 00:30:57.619 ourselves, but we have to join our voices with 00:30:57.619 --> 00:31:00.819 others and at least engage the conversation and 00:31:00.819 --> 00:31:04.700 do something to make our leaders recognize that 00:31:04.700 --> 00:31:06.819 we're not going to stand for this, that we need 00:31:06.819 --> 00:31:08.920 to get rid of these weapons. I mean, it's our 00:31:08.920 --> 00:31:11.119 lives that are going to be lost, our children's 00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:13.700 lives, our grandchildren's lives. Our civilization 00:31:13.700 --> 00:31:16.000 is going to be lost if there's ever an Armageddon. 00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:18.000 I mean, what are we going to do? Have to reinvent 00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:20.779 the wheel, reinvent fire, reinvent Tutsillan. 00:31:21.400 --> 00:31:24.400 the bible scripture any any advance has ever 00:31:24.400 --> 00:31:27.240 been made by humankind will be wiped out who 00:31:27.240 --> 00:31:29.539 knows what will be left after an arm again the 00:31:29.539 --> 00:31:33.220 destruction will be uh complete and total and 00:31:33.220 --> 00:31:36.740 the nuclear uh winter would last at least 10 00:31:36.740 --> 00:31:40.539 years over 5 billion people will die mostly from 00:31:40.539 --> 00:31:44.559 starvation i mean the scenario is just uh awful 00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:46.119 and maybe it's one of those things that people 00:31:46.119 --> 00:31:48.039 just as soon stick their head in the sands and 00:31:48.039 --> 00:31:50.640 not think about it Pull the covers over your 00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:54.059 head and just don't think about it. But I think 00:31:54.059 --> 00:31:56.079 we need to think about it and talk about it and 00:31:56.079 --> 00:31:59.440 get rid of these weapons. Well, that's so beautiful. 00:31:59.480 --> 00:32:02.440 Thank you, Archbishop. And thank you for modeling 00:32:02.440 --> 00:32:05.000 that for us. I mean, nobody wants to talk about 00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:07.539 nuclear weapons all day long and go around the 00:32:07.539 --> 00:32:11.259 country and do it. But as you said, it's that 00:32:11.259 --> 00:32:14.500 or just sit back and do nothing and be indifferent 00:32:14.500 --> 00:32:18.369 or pretend it's. not happening. But you've shown 00:32:18.369 --> 00:32:20.670 us that we can each do something. And I think 00:32:20.670 --> 00:32:22.869 everyone can do something. We can all take to 00:32:22.869 --> 00:32:25.569 the streets like you're going to tomorrow and 00:32:25.569 --> 00:32:29.029 be peaceful and stand up publicly and say no. 00:32:29.170 --> 00:32:31.309 That was the brilliance, I think, of the pastoral 00:32:31.309 --> 00:32:33.769 letter. And I've been around for 45 years in 00:32:33.769 --> 00:32:35.569 the peace movement. I never heard anybody call 00:32:35.569 --> 00:32:38.769 for a national conversation. And so that was 00:32:38.769 --> 00:32:42.089 a very nonviolent, gentle way to say, folks, 00:32:42.190 --> 00:32:45.000 we're going to talk. It's time to talk. We can't 00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:47.960 just pretend this isn't happening. Now I want 00:32:47.960 --> 00:32:51.400 to ask about Jesus. How does he fit into all 00:32:51.400 --> 00:32:54.400 of this? I know that's a stupid question, given 00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:57.019 we're talking about the end of the planet. I 00:32:57.019 --> 00:33:01.220 remember reading once a placard that someone 00:33:01.220 --> 00:33:05.420 had at a protest that said, God, we can destroy 00:33:05.420 --> 00:33:09.019 in 15 minutes what it took you 15 billion years 00:33:09.019 --> 00:33:13.180 to make. You know, that really resonated with 00:33:13.180 --> 00:33:15.700 me. That's what we're saying to God. And Jesus 00:33:15.700 --> 00:33:19.640 is, blessed are the peacemakers. Love your enemies. 00:33:19.960 --> 00:33:23.180 Put down the sword. And so that's why I call 00:33:23.180 --> 00:33:26.700 this the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. And you write 00:33:26.700 --> 00:33:33.940 about Jesus. So tell me, in your own words, for 00:33:33.940 --> 00:33:36.880 our listeners who are interested in the idea 00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:40.500 of the nonviolence of Jesus. What that means 00:33:40.500 --> 00:33:43.619 for us in light of these weapons and this predicament 00:33:43.619 --> 00:33:46.799 we're in. Well, you know, John, you've been so 00:33:46.799 --> 00:33:51.119 good about reminding us of that essential fact 00:33:51.119 --> 00:33:54.180 that Jesus is the center of everything. I love 00:33:54.180 --> 00:33:56.299 that Jean -Pierre J. Cassatt quote that, you 00:33:56.299 --> 00:33:58.720 know, Jesus' hidden activities in every atom 00:33:58.720 --> 00:34:01.200 of matter, every fraction of a second, we see 00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:04.400 Christ at work in our lives. And that's so critically 00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:08.679 important. In John 17, he prayed for peace. We're 00:34:08.679 --> 00:34:11.079 eavesdropping on the personal prayer, the intimate 00:34:11.079 --> 00:34:14.539 prayer of Jesus and his father, Abba. And he's 00:34:14.539 --> 00:34:17.099 praying for peace. He's praying that we come 00:34:17.099 --> 00:34:19.940 to be one in him and in him and the father. And 00:34:19.940 --> 00:34:23.639 so this is such an essential part of what this 00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:26.480 is all about. And that's why people say, well, 00:34:26.829 --> 00:34:28.690 You know, you should butt out, you know, and 00:34:28.690 --> 00:34:30.949 let the politicians and the military people deal 00:34:30.949 --> 00:34:33.730 with this. That's a scary thought. I think, no, 00:34:33.869 --> 00:34:36.630 we belong in this conversation. We're in the 00:34:36.630 --> 00:34:39.389 public square. We've got to keep promoting the 00:34:39.389 --> 00:34:41.610 gospel and hoping people will hear and listen. 00:34:42.030 --> 00:34:45.909 And so that, you know, I can, I can, I love this 00:34:45.909 --> 00:34:49.010 quote from Omar Bradley. Imagine a five -star 00:34:49.010 --> 00:34:52.570 general of the army. Exactly what you're talking 00:34:52.570 --> 00:34:55.429 about, John. He said, we have men of science, 00:34:55.550 --> 00:34:58.610 too few men of God. We have grasped the mystery 00:34:58.610 --> 00:35:01.289 of the atom and rejected the Sermon on the Mount. 00:35:01.769 --> 00:35:04.590 The world has achieved brilliance without conscience. 00:35:05.150 --> 00:35:07.650 Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical 00:35:07.650 --> 00:35:10.550 infants. We know more about war than we know 00:35:10.550 --> 00:35:13.150 about peace, more about killing than we know 00:35:13.150 --> 00:35:16.309 about living. If we continue to develop our technology 00:35:16.309 --> 00:35:19.860 without wisdom or prudence, our servant, may 00:35:19.860 --> 00:35:23.519 prove to be our executioner that's a powerful 00:35:23.519 --> 00:35:25.780 quote it seems to me and he puts christ right 00:35:25.780 --> 00:35:28.219 at the center the sermon on the mount right there 00:35:28.219 --> 00:35:31.739 you know matthew 5 it's just so i think that 00:35:31.739 --> 00:35:34.079 that's really what we have that's what gives 00:35:34.079 --> 00:35:37.039 us the courage and the hope to go on because 00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:39.820 we are like a voice in the desert crying out 00:35:39.820 --> 00:35:42.539 and no one seems to be listening but we persist 00:35:42.539 --> 00:35:45.900 we have to all persist and not lose hope Because 00:35:45.900 --> 00:35:48.659 this is what Christ calls us to do. And Christ 00:35:48.659 --> 00:35:50.679 promised to be with us to the end of the age. 00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:53.800 I believe firmly that Christ is behind all of 00:35:53.800 --> 00:35:56.159 these movements. What you're doing in the Beatitudes 00:35:56.159 --> 00:35:59.500 Center, Pax Christi, the Church's Catholic social 00:35:59.500 --> 00:36:04.019 teaching. This is all founded in Christ. And 00:36:04.019 --> 00:36:06.699 so that's what's going to keep us going. And 00:36:06.699 --> 00:36:08.440 I think that's what's going to achieve success 00:36:08.440 --> 00:36:12.320 in the end. Well, thank you so much. We're out 00:36:12.320 --> 00:36:14.239 of time. Is there anything else you'd like to 00:36:14.239 --> 00:36:17.579 add before we end? I bet you've sort of summed 00:36:17.579 --> 00:36:20.400 it up so well there. Well, just to thank you, 00:36:20.460 --> 00:36:22.139 John. I really appreciate all your good work. 00:36:22.300 --> 00:36:26.019 God bless you for what you're doing, and God 00:36:26.019 --> 00:36:28.780 bless the Beatitudes Center. Thanks, Archbishop. 00:36:29.800 --> 00:36:33.079 And thank you for all the great work you're doing. 00:36:33.239 --> 00:36:35.599 And will you come on next year? We'll make this 00:36:35.599 --> 00:36:37.699 an annual thing, and you can give us a State 00:36:37.699 --> 00:36:41.219 of the Bomb kind of talk. Oh, I'd be honored. 00:36:41.420 --> 00:36:45.739 I'd be honored, yeah. It'd be a happy occasion. 00:36:46.440 --> 00:36:48.820 Well, you're doing great things, and you're encouraging 00:36:48.820 --> 00:36:51.940 us to carry on, to speak out. So thank you. And 00:36:51.940 --> 00:36:54.059 thanks, dear friends, for listening to the Nonviolent 00:36:54.059 --> 00:36:57.219 Jesus podcast. You can hear more podcasts and 00:36:57.219 --> 00:37:01.019 find other upcoming Zoom programs at BeatitudeCenter 00:37:01.019 --> 00:37:04.559 .org. Please consider offering a donation to 00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:07.219 support this free work. And if you can, please 00:37:07.219 --> 00:37:11.039 offer some positive feedback or a review of the 00:37:11.039 --> 00:37:13.699 National Catholic Reporter. You can write a letter 00:37:13.699 --> 00:37:16.440 to the editor about the podcast. or Apple, or 00:37:16.440 --> 00:37:19.800 Spotify, or YouTube, or the dozens of other platforms 00:37:19.800 --> 00:37:22.800 that we're on, but mainly if you could help spread 00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:25.179 the word about the podcast by telling all your 00:37:25.179 --> 00:37:27.960 friends and colleagues and churchgoers. May the 00:37:27.960 --> 00:37:31.380 God of peace bless you all, and keep on following 00:37:31.380 --> 00:37:33.840 the nonviolent Jesus. See you next time.