Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm
John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking
with my friend, Professor Stanley Hauerwas, one
of the world's great living theologians. This
is a project of... beatitudecenter .org, where
you can find many other podcasts and regular
Zoom programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and
practicing nonviolence and working for a more
just, more nonviolent world. So let's begin,
as we always do, with a little prayer. And I
invite you, wherever you are, just to take a
deep breath and to relax and recenter yourself.
And together, let's enter into the presence of
the God of peace who loves you infinitely and
personally and everyone. And let's welcome the
nonviolent Jesus here with us. Just take a moment
to ask for whatever grace we need to follow the
nonviolent Jesus more faithfully and to do God's
will. God of peace, thank you for all the blessings
of life, love, and peace that you give us. Be
with us now as we reflect together on your call
to follow the nonviolent Jesus and to work for
a more just, more nonviolent world. Bless us,
inspire us, disarm us, strengthen us, and send
us out to do your will, to do our part to help
end poverty, racism, greed, and war. and every
injustice and nuclear weapons, environmental
destruction, that we might be your holy peacemakers
and welcome your reign of universal love, nonviolence,
and peace on earth. In Jesus' name. Amen. It's
a great pleasure to welcome my friend, Professor
Stanley Hauerwas, one of the world's greatest
theologians and ethicists. Stanley taught for
years at the University of Notre Dame before
moving to Duke University, where he was the Gilbert
Rowe Professor of Theological Ethics at Duke
Divinity School. He also served at Duke Law School
and the University of Aberdeen. In 2001, Time
magazine named Stanley Hauerwas America's Best
Theologian. He's spoken everywhere in the world,
even on Oprah. Stanley Hauerwas has written way
too many books to list, but the one which influenced
me the most is The Peaceable Kingdom, A Primer
in Christian Ethics. I hope you'll look him up
and get some of his books. Some of his biggest
bestsellers are Jesus Changes Everything, A New
World Made Possible, Resident Aliens, Life in
the Christian Colony, and Cross -Shattered Christ,
Meditations on the Seven Last Words. You can
find out more about Stanley by Googling him and
check out his website, stanleyharawas .org. Stanley,
welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. Thanks
for being here. It's so good to be with you,
John. Thank you. It's been a long time. Way too
long. Stanley, you won't even remember it, but
when you were back at Duke in the early 90s,
I was in prison there in North Carolina for the
Plowshares action with Philip Berrigan and one
day out of the blue while I was in jail. I got
a package from you. You sent me an original early
edition of The Social Gospel by Rauschenbusch.
Do you remember that, Stanley? You probably don't.
I don't remember it. That was very generous of
you and wonderful to get in my jail cell. Well,
let's just dive right into the deep end and get
right to the point. As you know, I call this
the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. Because in my opinion,
I read Gandhi and Dr. King, and I see them saying
that Jesus was totally nonviolent. So I agree
with that. And therefore, God is totally nonviolent
and universally loving. And therefore, to be
not just Christian, to be human is to be nonviolent
and universally loving. And you're one of the
great theologians in the world who has explored
and reflected on that. So just... Dive in and
tell us some of your thoughts about the nonviolence
of Jesus and nonviolence and an ethic of nonviolence,
if you will. Well, let me begin by saying that
I didn't begin as someone committed to nonviolence.
I'm a Texan. And that means that I didn't know
there was something called nonviolence until...
I was late in my education studying to do a PhD
in Christian ethics. And when I went to Notre
Dame from that original education, I ran into
something called the Mennonites. I went to Notre
Dame to teach Catholics and ended up being shaped
by Mennonites. And the Mennonites... are that
form of reformed Protestantism that, through
the Schlechheim Confession, discovered that Jesus
and the Church were mutually interrelated in
a way that they worshiped Jesus. to the world
a witness of nonviolence that otherwise could
not be seen. So the Mennonites helped me see
that it's not like we have Jesus, and then we
might think about what implications there might
be about nonviolence, but Jesus. is nonviolence.
And to be a worshiper of Christ is to be shaped
by a cross that is a manifestation of God's love
for the enemy in a way that makes it possible
for us to live with an enemy. the meaning of
our deaths, because the meaning of our deaths
has been substantiated by Christ's cross and
resurrection. formation that we all must receive
for the worship of God. It goes back to the most
fundamental convictions we have about All that
is summed up by the title of John Yoder's book,
The Politics of Jesus. Jesus. You don't have
Jesus. No, it's brilliant. And I'm so moved that
you, I said, we're going to dive right in. And
you went right to the cross to start with and
said, well, that's the heart of the whole way
of God and the image of God and nonviolence.
So, and we're not talking about it. The churches
seem to talk about everything but the cross.
So the way I... was taught, and I want you to
say a little bit more about it then, is that
Daniel Berrigan, my teacher, put it this way.
We go with Christ's preference to accept suffering
rather than inflict suffering. Our willingness
to be killed without retaliating rather than
to kill. That there's no cause for which we will
ever support killing ever again, but we will.
gladly give our lives in love for suffering humanity.
So Jesus resists nonviolently injustice in Rome
and doesn't want to be killed, but he goes to
his death forgiving and loving and embodies total
nonviolence. That's why I'm very moved that you
said Jesus is nonviolent. So what does that mean
for us, Stanley? Well, let me respond first about
Dan. I had several times meeting him when I was
at Notre Dame, and Dan Berrigan was a tough guy.
He didn't take any prisoners. And I take that
to be a sign that... Nonviolence isn't passive.
It's quite vulnerable in that it raises questions
that demand responses. And Dan didn't let you
go until you told him what you thought. And oftentimes
what you thought was implicated in violence in
a way that he challenged. So the very activity
that the nonviolent people embody is one that
doesn't obscure, doesn't avoid conflict, because
conflict so oftentimes... exposes what is violent
but not seen because it's hidden in false order
that people confuse with nonviolence. What that
does is you see how the cross is that kind of
challenge. This is my Lord and Savior, but you
have to kill someone every once in a while in
order to have safety. That makes me think about
the resurrection, and that's the reason we can
follow Jesus in this total nonviolence, even
unto the cross or the willingness, because used
about survival. That's a very helpful way you
put it. But with the resurrection, our survival
is already guaranteed, and if we're supposed
to be people of faith, we know that, so we can
try to be as nonviolent. as Jesus and as daring
in your face as Dan Berrigan was all his life.
And as he always said, let the chips fall where
they may, because we know we're headed toward
resurrection. Would you agree? Oh, I agree entirely.
Did you find my characterization of Dan accurate?
Oh, I agree. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he did mellow over
time. I was always amazed with him for 40 years,
you know, the things he would say to audiences.
And you would just say, that's just rude. And
then you go and read the gospel, and Jesus is
way more insulting. I mean, if you look at it
that way. But as a holy person, Dan was... actually
giving us all these great gifts by saying we're
going to deal with reality. And because he was
willing to do that and had so many people walked
away from him, thousands of people changed their
lives in his presence. You know, they really
changed. And I want to ask you, too, about John
Howard Yoder. I think you studied with him since
you brought up his book, The Politics of Jesus,
which I consider. maybe the most important, one
of the most important books in Christian history.
There never really was a book about the nonviolence
of Jesus, except for Andre Trachmes, Jesus and
the Nonviolent Revolution. He was a great figure,
the head of the Fellowship Reconciliation, and
such a legendary guy in the 50s. But Yoder, who
was friends with Merton and Dan and all, wrote
this book. And I read it the week I entered the
Jesuits, and it kind of... set me on this path
to talking with you. Can you talk about his book
and how important it was? And I think everyone
should read it because it still holds up today.
Oh, I agree entirely. I think it's one of the
great books that has been produced in the last
years. And what it challenged was fundamentally
what I might characterize as Nurembergian justification
of violence, namely that Christian ethics was
founded and determined by the presumption that
we're on the whole for peace, but when it's an
issue of injustice, hard in the need for... security,
we have to use a little violence here and there.
And John fundamentally challenged that presumption
that violence is like vows that daring people
take, namely to be monogamously faithful. with
their fingers crossed, where John challenged
the presumption that we were going to be peaceful
with our fingers crossed. And that brilliant
exegesis of the Gospel of Luke. recreation of
a community that created people that were willing
to bind themselves to one another in a way that
made God's kingdom real. And that binding was
a way to show the world that there was an alternative
to the world. peace. Because one of the things
that a commitment to nonviolence does is expose
the... I hope everyone will get it and read it
if you haven't. The Politics of Jesus by John
Howard Yoder. The other book that he wrote that
is very important is The Original Revolution.
Yes, yeah, about nonviolence. I remember reading
that book when I was 21. And there's a sentence,
I always remember it this way. I don't know if
it's exactly right, but he wrote... carrying
the cross is not having a hangnail or a flat
tire or I have a difficult boss at work or my
mother -in -law is a really difficult person
and I'm carrying my cross. And he says, that's
baloney. The cross is nonviolent resistance to
the Roman Empire and therefore the American Empire.
And you're going to stand up and say no to it
and you're going to get in trouble. Yeah, you
still have a hangnail and a flat tire and you're
a difficult boss, but that has nothing to do
with discipleship to Jesus. And that's powerful.
You don't hear anybody saying that anymore. I
love that passage in the politics of Jesus. The
passage that I find also extremely powerful in
the politics of Jesus is the meaning. of history
is not determined by cause and effect, but by
cross and resurrection. Wow. What does that mean
to you, Stanley? It means that, as I tried to
say, what theological commitments we must have
as Christians. play those commitments means you've
got a account of the world that is not determined
by what the textbooks about America say in public
education, but is determined by the narratives
that are produced within the Christian community
to display. Hmm. That's very powerful. And I
wanted to also ask you to say a little bit more
about the will of God, since you brought that
up too. And that has really been the heart of
everything for me in about the last five years,
as my friends know. And I've written a whole
new book about that coming out next year called
Universal Love, Surrendering to the God of Peace.
And I didn't understand this, that it's still
a mystery to me. It's why I want to ask you while
I have this moment, that nonviolence only makes
sense in light of God's gift of free will. That
if God is totally nonviolent, God has to give
every human being The complete freedom to reject
God, reject love, and hurt and kill one another
and destroy the planet. And so we've all done
that. And God is suffering through that. And
the invitation of Jesus is, not my will, your
will be done. Your kingdom come. And so he lives
out that prayer even in Gethsemane and goes to
his death in total nonviolence and trusting God.
and faithful to this. He doesn't do His will.
And the more we can renounce our selfish will,
personally and nationally and globally, and therefore
our violence, and surrender to the God of peace,
then we're free not to kill, and free to be nonviolent,
and free to follow Jesus, and things like that.
Can you reflect for me? on the connection between
the free will of God and this way of Jesus' nonviolence?
I don't use the language of will that much, because
in America, it usually means I'm free to do what
I damn well want, and how to see will. rather
than something that's just the need to exert
my power against the limits of my life is what
I want to challenge. For God to have a will is
obviously very different from that understanding
of will. say God. That's lovely. Claims about
God's will. I just want to be very careful to
avoid. In your great book, The Peaceable Kingdom,
which you subtitle A Primer of Christian Ethics,
and it's all written in light of nonviolence,
you talk about the kingdom of God from that perspective
of Gandhi's nonviolence. And, you know, I'm so
moved that you said Jesus is nonviolence. Gandhi
said the kingdom of God is nonviolence. which
I think is a very powerful theological statement.
Well, that means... It's not like Gandhi hadn't
read the New Testament. Yeah, he knew it better
than all of us. He did, and that Setagaria is
a powerful account of what I would think is very
close to Christian nonviolence. Mm -hmm. And,
I mean, in the great... the British, where some
of Gandhi's followers acted violently against
the British, and Gandhi called off the strike,
you began to see what a disciplined activity
nonviolence is, because Gandhi wouldn't let even...
He wouldn't let his followers act violently toward
the British. They could demonstrate, but they
couldn't hit. Well, we have so far to go compared
to where he did. I mean, so few people understand
that level of nonviolence, much less any kind
of vision of nonviolence. When we talk about
the kingdom of God, from the perspective of nonviolence,
it's just so powerful. And I guess I want to
ask you to unpack it a little bit for us. The
way I always look at it means, well, I mean,
I hear the Isaiah quote in the title of your
book, The Peaceable Kingdom, where the lion and
the lamb and the child lay down and no more death
or tears or killing on all my holy mountain,
that in God's reign, there's no war, no killing.
No discrimination or prejudice or offense or
violence of any kind. No more death. And we're
to live like that now, as if it's at hand and
we're living in a realm of universal love. Is
that how you see the peaceable kingdom? The easy
answer is yes. The hard answer is... If you give
a yes, why is it more of reality in the world
than we now experience it? And the answer is
we are disobedient and refuse to live lives that
are constituted by that kind of kingdom. with
disdain. One of the aspects, John, that is oftentimes
not discussed as part of nonviolence is the extremely
important patients are living nonviolently in
the world. We want to have our goods and have
them soon, but God is patient with us in terms
of our unfaithfulness in a way that gives us.
Bye -bye. Well, unfortunately, we're running
out of time. I want to ask you one big last question,
and that's about this world today and your suggestions
to everyone listening as people who are trying
to follow the nonviolent Jesus and create that
space and fidelity of the peaceable kingdom.
So here we are suffering through the Trump administration.
rising authoritarianism, fascism, tyranny, white
supremacy, the dismantling of democracy. And
we could go on and on about the threat of nuclear
war, the coming environmental destruction that
we're wreaking havoc on the planet, and to the
Ukraine war and our funding of the killing of
children in Gaza and so forth and so on. And
now the rising of Christian nationalism. like
never before here in the U .S. So as we wrap
this up, any closing words of encouragement for
folks about following the nonviolent Jesus in
this bad time? People put down nonviolence because
they can ask questions about what would you do
about the Russian invasion. Ukraine, what would
you do about Gaza? And it seems like as people
committed to nonviolence, we have nothing to
say. But what that means is, as people committed
to nonviolence, we need to think ahead about
what kind of people we need to be in order to
not be. Well, I... Thank you so much, Stanley
Hauerwas, for speaking with me today. And it's
really a blessing to be connected with you again.
And I want to thank everyone for listening to
this episode of the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast.
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