WEBVTT 00:00:14.699 --> 00:00:17.839 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:17.839 --> 00:00:20.620 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:20.620 --> 00:00:24.000 with my friend, Professor Stanley Hauerwas, one 00:00:24.000 --> 00:00:27.000 of the world's great living theologians. This 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:31.309 is a project of... beatitudecenter .org, where 00:00:31.309 --> 00:00:33.369 you can find many other podcasts and regular 00:00:33.369 --> 00:00:36.530 Zoom programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and 00:00:36.530 --> 00:00:39.310 practicing nonviolence and working for a more 00:00:39.310 --> 00:00:42.770 just, more nonviolent world. So let's begin, 00:00:42.829 --> 00:00:45.609 as we always do, with a little prayer. And I 00:00:45.609 --> 00:00:47.710 invite you, wherever you are, just to take a 00:00:47.710 --> 00:00:52.590 deep breath and to relax and recenter yourself. 00:00:54.009 --> 00:00:56.450 And together, let's enter into the presence of 00:00:56.450 --> 00:00:59.850 the God of peace who loves you infinitely and 00:00:59.850 --> 00:01:03.450 personally and everyone. And let's welcome the 00:01:03.450 --> 00:01:07.530 nonviolent Jesus here with us. Just take a moment 00:01:07.530 --> 00:01:10.489 to ask for whatever grace we need to follow the 00:01:10.489 --> 00:01:13.769 nonviolent Jesus more faithfully and to do God's 00:01:13.769 --> 00:01:20.620 will. God of peace, thank you for all the blessings 00:01:20.620 --> 00:01:22.959 of life, love, and peace that you give us. Be 00:01:22.959 --> 00:01:26.519 with us now as we reflect together on your call 00:01:26.519 --> 00:01:29.959 to follow the nonviolent Jesus and to work for 00:01:29.959 --> 00:01:33.040 a more just, more nonviolent world. Bless us, 00:01:33.219 --> 00:01:37.060 inspire us, disarm us, strengthen us, and send 00:01:37.060 --> 00:01:40.379 us out to do your will, to do our part to help 00:01:40.379 --> 00:01:44.189 end poverty, racism, greed, and war. and every 00:01:44.189 --> 00:01:46.530 injustice and nuclear weapons, environmental 00:01:46.530 --> 00:01:50.209 destruction, that we might be your holy peacemakers 00:01:50.209 --> 00:01:54.329 and welcome your reign of universal love, nonviolence, 00:01:54.349 --> 00:01:58.840 and peace on earth. In Jesus' name. Amen. It's 00:01:58.840 --> 00:02:01.480 a great pleasure to welcome my friend, Professor 00:02:01.480 --> 00:02:04.819 Stanley Hauerwas, one of the world's greatest 00:02:04.819 --> 00:02:07.540 theologians and ethicists. Stanley taught for 00:02:07.540 --> 00:02:10.360 years at the University of Notre Dame before 00:02:10.360 --> 00:02:13.719 moving to Duke University, where he was the Gilbert 00:02:13.719 --> 00:02:16.759 Rowe Professor of Theological Ethics at Duke 00:02:16.759 --> 00:02:19.789 Divinity School. He also served at Duke Law School 00:02:19.789 --> 00:02:24.349 and the University of Aberdeen. In 2001, Time 00:02:24.349 --> 00:02:28.229 magazine named Stanley Hauerwas America's Best 00:02:28.229 --> 00:02:31.310 Theologian. He's spoken everywhere in the world, 00:02:31.349 --> 00:02:36.169 even on Oprah. Stanley Hauerwas has written way 00:02:36.169 --> 00:02:39.250 too many books to list, but the one which influenced 00:02:39.250 --> 00:02:42.770 me the most is The Peaceable Kingdom, A Primer 00:02:42.770 --> 00:02:45.990 in Christian Ethics. I hope you'll look him up 00:02:45.990 --> 00:02:48.810 and get some of his books. Some of his biggest 00:02:48.810 --> 00:02:52.650 bestsellers are Jesus Changes Everything, A New 00:02:52.650 --> 00:02:56.430 World Made Possible, Resident Aliens, Life in 00:02:56.430 --> 00:03:00.129 the Christian Colony, and Cross -Shattered Christ, 00:03:00.490 --> 00:03:03.650 Meditations on the Seven Last Words. You can 00:03:03.650 --> 00:03:06.909 find out more about Stanley by Googling him and 00:03:06.909 --> 00:03:11.580 check out his website, stanleyharawas .org. Stanley, 00:03:11.620 --> 00:03:14.159 welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. Thanks 00:03:14.159 --> 00:03:17.099 for being here. It's so good to be with you, 00:03:17.180 --> 00:03:21.840 John. Thank you. It's been a long time. Way too 00:03:21.840 --> 00:03:26.080 long. Stanley, you won't even remember it, but 00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:28.439 when you were back at Duke in the early 90s, 00:03:28.439 --> 00:03:31.680 I was in prison there in North Carolina for the 00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:33.939 Plowshares action with Philip Berrigan and one 00:03:33.939 --> 00:03:37.080 day out of the blue while I was in jail. I got 00:03:37.080 --> 00:03:40.020 a package from you. You sent me an original early 00:03:40.020 --> 00:03:44.360 edition of The Social Gospel by Rauschenbusch. 00:03:44.439 --> 00:03:46.500 Do you remember that, Stanley? You probably don't. 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:49.620 I don't remember it. That was very generous of 00:03:49.620 --> 00:03:52.740 you and wonderful to get in my jail cell. Well, 00:03:52.780 --> 00:03:56.819 let's just dive right into the deep end and get 00:03:56.819 --> 00:03:59.840 right to the point. As you know, I call this 00:03:59.840 --> 00:04:04.539 the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. Because in my opinion, 00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:08.219 I read Gandhi and Dr. King, and I see them saying 00:04:08.219 --> 00:04:11.159 that Jesus was totally nonviolent. So I agree 00:04:11.159 --> 00:04:14.759 with that. And therefore, God is totally nonviolent 00:04:14.759 --> 00:04:17.459 and universally loving. And therefore, to be 00:04:17.459 --> 00:04:21.480 not just Christian, to be human is to be nonviolent 00:04:21.480 --> 00:04:25.279 and universally loving. And you're one of the 00:04:25.279 --> 00:04:27.720 great theologians in the world who has explored 00:04:27.720 --> 00:04:31.589 and reflected on that. So just... Dive in and 00:04:31.589 --> 00:04:34.410 tell us some of your thoughts about the nonviolence 00:04:34.410 --> 00:04:38.370 of Jesus and nonviolence and an ethic of nonviolence, 00:04:38.370 --> 00:04:43.110 if you will. Well, let me begin by saying that 00:04:43.110 --> 00:04:48.269 I didn't begin as someone committed to nonviolence. 00:04:48.290 --> 00:04:56.170 I'm a Texan. And that means that I didn't know 00:04:56.170 --> 00:05:00.129 there was something called nonviolence until... 00:05:00.910 --> 00:05:06.370 I was late in my education studying to do a PhD 00:05:06.370 --> 00:05:12.110 in Christian ethics. And when I went to Notre 00:05:12.110 --> 00:05:20.089 Dame from that original education, I ran into 00:05:20.089 --> 00:05:24.370 something called the Mennonites. I went to Notre 00:05:24.370 --> 00:05:26.949 Dame to teach Catholics and ended up being shaped 00:05:26.949 --> 00:05:31.279 by Mennonites. And the Mennonites... are that 00:05:31.279 --> 00:05:39.220 form of reformed Protestantism that, through 00:05:39.220 --> 00:05:46.279 the Schlechheim Confession, discovered that Jesus 00:05:46.279 --> 00:05:54.360 and the Church were mutually interrelated in 00:05:54.360 --> 00:06:02.839 a way that they worshiped Jesus. to the world 00:06:02.839 --> 00:06:08.579 a witness of nonviolence that otherwise could 00:06:08.579 --> 00:06:17.180 not be seen. So the Mennonites helped me see 00:06:17.180 --> 00:06:23.600 that it's not like we have Jesus, and then we 00:06:23.600 --> 00:06:26.279 might think about what implications there might 00:06:26.279 --> 00:06:33.540 be about nonviolence, but Jesus. is nonviolence. 00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:40.420 And to be a worshiper of Christ is to be shaped 00:06:40.420 --> 00:06:47.879 by a cross that is a manifestation of God's love 00:06:47.879 --> 00:06:52.800 for the enemy in a way that makes it possible 00:06:52.800 --> 00:07:06.889 for us to live with an enemy. the meaning of 00:07:06.889 --> 00:07:11.009 our deaths, because the meaning of our deaths 00:07:11.009 --> 00:07:16.389 has been substantiated by Christ's cross and 00:07:16.389 --> 00:07:38.889 resurrection. formation that we all must receive 00:07:38.889 --> 00:07:50.829 for the worship of God. It goes back to the most 00:07:50.829 --> 00:09:25.019 fundamental convictions we have about All that 00:09:25.019 --> 00:09:31.200 is summed up by the title of John Yoder's book, 00:09:31.500 --> 00:09:35.440 The Politics of Jesus. Jesus. You don't have 00:09:35.440 --> 00:10:01.870 Jesus. No, it's brilliant. And I'm so moved that 00:10:01.870 --> 00:10:04.730 you, I said, we're going to dive right in. And 00:10:04.730 --> 00:10:07.370 you went right to the cross to start with and 00:10:07.370 --> 00:10:13.029 said, well, that's the heart of the whole way 00:10:13.029 --> 00:10:15.570 of God and the image of God and nonviolence. 00:10:15.889 --> 00:10:19.450 So, and we're not talking about it. The churches 00:10:19.450 --> 00:10:22.009 seem to talk about everything but the cross. 00:10:22.529 --> 00:10:25.470 So the way I... was taught, and I want you to 00:10:25.470 --> 00:10:28.070 say a little bit more about it then, is that 00:10:28.070 --> 00:10:30.929 Daniel Berrigan, my teacher, put it this way. 00:10:32.269 --> 00:10:35.509 We go with Christ's preference to accept suffering 00:10:35.509 --> 00:10:38.490 rather than inflict suffering. Our willingness 00:10:38.490 --> 00:10:42.129 to be killed without retaliating rather than 00:10:42.129 --> 00:10:45.429 to kill. That there's no cause for which we will 00:10:45.429 --> 00:10:47.649 ever support killing ever again, but we will. 00:10:48.299 --> 00:10:51.860 gladly give our lives in love for suffering humanity. 00:10:52.220 --> 00:10:56.600 So Jesus resists nonviolently injustice in Rome 00:10:56.600 --> 00:11:00.960 and doesn't want to be killed, but he goes to 00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:05.440 his death forgiving and loving and embodies total 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:08.379 nonviolence. That's why I'm very moved that you 00:11:08.379 --> 00:11:14.240 said Jesus is nonviolent. So what does that mean 00:11:14.240 --> 00:11:18.570 for us, Stanley? Well, let me respond first about 00:11:18.570 --> 00:11:25.210 Dan. I had several times meeting him when I was 00:11:25.210 --> 00:11:29.950 at Notre Dame, and Dan Berrigan was a tough guy. 00:11:31.970 --> 00:11:40.950 He didn't take any prisoners. And I take that 00:11:40.950 --> 00:11:47.480 to be a sign that... Nonviolence isn't passive. 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:54.179 It's quite vulnerable in that it raises questions 00:11:54.179 --> 00:12:03.039 that demand responses. And Dan didn't let you 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:07.559 go until you told him what you thought. And oftentimes 00:12:07.559 --> 00:12:12.419 what you thought was implicated in violence in 00:12:12.419 --> 00:12:20.470 a way that he challenged. So the very activity 00:12:20.470 --> 00:12:32.269 that the nonviolent people embody is one that 00:12:32.269 --> 00:12:39.610 doesn't obscure, doesn't avoid conflict, because 00:12:39.610 --> 00:12:45.879 conflict so oftentimes... exposes what is violent 00:12:45.879 --> 00:12:55.299 but not seen because it's hidden in false order 00:12:55.299 --> 00:13:04.100 that people confuse with nonviolence. What that 00:13:04.100 --> 00:13:10.559 does is you see how the cross is that kind of 00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:19.899 challenge. This is my Lord and Savior, but you 00:13:19.899 --> 00:13:23.259 have to kill someone every once in a while in 00:13:23.259 --> 00:14:06.960 order to have safety. That makes me think about 00:14:06.960 --> 00:14:10.460 the resurrection, and that's the reason we can 00:14:10.460 --> 00:14:13.379 follow Jesus in this total nonviolence, even 00:14:13.379 --> 00:14:17.100 unto the cross or the willingness, because used 00:14:17.100 --> 00:14:19.679 about survival. That's a very helpful way you 00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:22.539 put it. But with the resurrection, our survival 00:14:22.539 --> 00:14:24.620 is already guaranteed, and if we're supposed 00:14:24.620 --> 00:14:27.379 to be people of faith, we know that, so we can 00:14:27.379 --> 00:14:30.600 try to be as nonviolent. as Jesus and as daring 00:14:30.600 --> 00:14:34.039 in your face as Dan Berrigan was all his life. 00:14:34.460 --> 00:14:37.259 And as he always said, let the chips fall where 00:14:37.259 --> 00:14:41.559 they may, because we know we're headed toward 00:14:41.559 --> 00:14:47.019 resurrection. Would you agree? Oh, I agree entirely. 00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:50.960 Did you find my characterization of Dan accurate? 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:53.899 Oh, I agree. Oh, yeah. Yeah, he did mellow over 00:14:53.899 --> 00:14:57.830 time. I was always amazed with him for 40 years, 00:14:57.929 --> 00:15:00.350 you know, the things he would say to audiences. 00:15:00.629 --> 00:15:06.610 And you would just say, that's just rude. And 00:15:06.610 --> 00:15:09.250 then you go and read the gospel, and Jesus is 00:15:09.250 --> 00:15:12.929 way more insulting. I mean, if you look at it 00:15:12.929 --> 00:15:18.580 that way. But as a holy person, Dan was... actually 00:15:18.580 --> 00:15:20.960 giving us all these great gifts by saying we're 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:23.500 going to deal with reality. And because he was 00:15:23.500 --> 00:15:26.179 willing to do that and had so many people walked 00:15:26.179 --> 00:15:29.980 away from him, thousands of people changed their 00:15:29.980 --> 00:15:33.700 lives in his presence. You know, they really 00:15:33.700 --> 00:15:37.039 changed. And I want to ask you, too, about John 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:39.600 Howard Yoder. I think you studied with him since 00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:42.580 you brought up his book, The Politics of Jesus, 00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:46.470 which I consider. maybe the most important, one 00:15:46.470 --> 00:15:48.570 of the most important books in Christian history. 00:15:48.789 --> 00:15:51.590 There never really was a book about the nonviolence 00:15:51.590 --> 00:15:54.990 of Jesus, except for Andre Trachmes, Jesus and 00:15:54.990 --> 00:15:57.570 the Nonviolent Revolution. He was a great figure, 00:15:57.789 --> 00:16:00.570 the head of the Fellowship Reconciliation, and 00:16:00.570 --> 00:16:04.529 such a legendary guy in the 50s. But Yoder, who 00:16:04.529 --> 00:16:07.049 was friends with Merton and Dan and all, wrote 00:16:07.049 --> 00:16:11.870 this book. And I read it the week I entered the 00:16:11.870 --> 00:16:15.120 Jesuits, and it kind of... set me on this path 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:18.840 to talking with you. Can you talk about his book 00:16:18.840 --> 00:16:21.899 and how important it was? And I think everyone 00:16:21.899 --> 00:16:24.720 should read it because it still holds up today. 00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:28.919 Oh, I agree entirely. I think it's one of the 00:16:28.919 --> 00:16:34.559 great books that has been produced in the last 00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:39.899 years. And what it challenged was fundamentally 00:16:40.909 --> 00:16:45.129 what I might characterize as Nurembergian justification 00:16:45.129 --> 00:16:53.429 of violence, namely that Christian ethics was 00:16:53.429 --> 00:16:59.990 founded and determined by the presumption that 00:16:59.990 --> 00:17:04.309 we're on the whole for peace, but when it's an 00:17:04.309 --> 00:17:10.089 issue of injustice, hard in the need for... security, 00:17:10.569 --> 00:17:14.589 we have to use a little violence here and there. 00:17:15.569 --> 00:17:22.730 And John fundamentally challenged that presumption 00:17:22.730 --> 00:17:32.650 that violence is like vows that daring people 00:17:32.650 --> 00:17:40.369 take, namely to be monogamously faithful. with 00:17:40.369 --> 00:17:49.309 their fingers crossed, where John challenged 00:17:49.309 --> 00:17:53.990 the presumption that we were going to be peaceful 00:17:53.990 --> 00:18:01.710 with our fingers crossed. And that brilliant 00:18:01.710 --> 00:18:38.950 exegesis of the Gospel of Luke. recreation of 00:18:38.950 --> 00:18:45.170 a community that created people that were willing 00:18:45.170 --> 00:18:51.910 to bind themselves to one another in a way that 00:18:51.910 --> 00:19:00.470 made God's kingdom real. And that binding was 00:19:00.470 --> 00:19:06.009 a way to show the world that there was an alternative 00:19:06.009 --> 00:19:11.460 to the world. peace. Because one of the things 00:19:11.460 --> 00:19:16.700 that a commitment to nonviolence does is expose 00:19:16.700 --> 00:19:44.319 the... I hope everyone will get it and read it 00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:47.039 if you haven't. The Politics of Jesus by John 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:51.599 Howard Yoder. The other book that he wrote that 00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:54.519 is very important is The Original Revolution. 00:19:55.079 --> 00:20:00.019 Yes, yeah, about nonviolence. I remember reading 00:20:00.019 --> 00:20:03.140 that book when I was 21. And there's a sentence, 00:20:03.339 --> 00:20:07.039 I always remember it this way. I don't know if 00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:12.500 it's exactly right, but he wrote... carrying 00:20:12.500 --> 00:20:16.259 the cross is not having a hangnail or a flat 00:20:16.259 --> 00:20:21.480 tire or I have a difficult boss at work or my 00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:24.339 mother -in -law is a really difficult person 00:20:24.339 --> 00:20:27.160 and I'm carrying my cross. And he says, that's 00:20:27.160 --> 00:20:30.839 baloney. The cross is nonviolent resistance to 00:20:30.839 --> 00:20:33.359 the Roman Empire and therefore the American Empire. 00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:37.880 And you're going to stand up and say no to it 00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:41.779 and you're going to get in trouble. Yeah, you 00:20:41.779 --> 00:20:44.119 still have a hangnail and a flat tire and you're 00:20:44.119 --> 00:20:46.559 a difficult boss, but that has nothing to do 00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:50.579 with discipleship to Jesus. And that's powerful. 00:20:50.619 --> 00:20:53.559 You don't hear anybody saying that anymore. I 00:20:53.559 --> 00:20:59.279 love that passage in the politics of Jesus. The 00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:05.460 passage that I find also extremely powerful in 00:21:05.460 --> 00:21:12.130 the politics of Jesus is the meaning. of history 00:21:12.130 --> 00:21:18.549 is not determined by cause and effect, but by 00:21:18.549 --> 00:21:23.009 cross and resurrection. Wow. What does that mean 00:21:23.009 --> 00:21:32.970 to you, Stanley? It means that, as I tried to 00:21:32.970 --> 00:21:38.150 say, what theological commitments we must have 00:21:38.150 --> 00:21:46.650 as Christians. play those commitments means you've 00:21:46.650 --> 00:21:56.829 got a account of the world that is not determined 00:21:56.829 --> 00:22:02.170 by what the textbooks about America say in public 00:22:02.170 --> 00:22:07.109 education, but is determined by the narratives 00:22:07.109 --> 00:22:11.029 that are produced within the Christian community 00:22:11.029 --> 00:22:26.619 to display. Hmm. That's very powerful. And I 00:22:26.619 --> 00:22:30.180 wanted to also ask you to say a little bit more 00:22:30.180 --> 00:22:33.920 about the will of God, since you brought that 00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:38.460 up too. And that has really been the heart of 00:22:38.460 --> 00:22:40.799 everything for me in about the last five years, 00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:43.099 as my friends know. And I've written a whole 00:22:43.099 --> 00:22:46.539 new book about that coming out next year called 00:22:46.539 --> 00:22:49.519 Universal Love, Surrendering to the God of Peace. 00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:59.220 And I didn't understand this, that it's still 00:22:59.220 --> 00:23:01.319 a mystery to me. It's why I want to ask you while 00:23:01.319 --> 00:23:04.559 I have this moment, that nonviolence only makes 00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:09.880 sense in light of God's gift of free will. That 00:23:09.880 --> 00:23:14.619 if God is totally nonviolent, God has to give 00:23:14.619 --> 00:23:18.089 every human being The complete freedom to reject 00:23:18.089 --> 00:23:21.529 God, reject love, and hurt and kill one another 00:23:21.529 --> 00:23:23.529 and destroy the planet. And so we've all done 00:23:23.529 --> 00:23:28.089 that. And God is suffering through that. And 00:23:28.089 --> 00:23:31.990 the invitation of Jesus is, not my will, your 00:23:31.990 --> 00:23:38.190 will be done. Your kingdom come. And so he lives 00:23:38.190 --> 00:23:41.329 out that prayer even in Gethsemane and goes to 00:23:41.329 --> 00:23:44.170 his death in total nonviolence and trusting God. 00:23:44.970 --> 00:23:48.289 and faithful to this. He doesn't do His will. 00:23:48.869 --> 00:23:52.150 And the more we can renounce our selfish will, 00:23:52.289 --> 00:23:55.890 personally and nationally and globally, and therefore 00:23:55.890 --> 00:23:59.329 our violence, and surrender to the God of peace, 00:23:59.589 --> 00:24:04.490 then we're free not to kill, and free to be nonviolent, 00:24:04.509 --> 00:24:07.529 and free to follow Jesus, and things like that. 00:24:07.589 --> 00:24:11.000 Can you reflect for me? on the connection between 00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:14.420 the free will of God and this way of Jesus' nonviolence? 00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:22.099 I don't use the language of will that much, because 00:24:22.099 --> 00:24:29.579 in America, it usually means I'm free to do what 00:24:29.579 --> 00:24:41.549 I damn well want, and how to see will. rather 00:24:41.549 --> 00:24:45.890 than something that's just the need to exert 00:24:45.890 --> 00:24:54.210 my power against the limits of my life is what 00:24:54.210 --> 00:24:59.829 I want to challenge. For God to have a will is 00:24:59.829 --> 00:25:03.029 obviously very different from that understanding 00:25:03.029 --> 00:26:20.910 of will. say God. That's lovely. Claims about 00:26:20.910 --> 00:26:27.049 God's will. I just want to be very careful to 00:26:27.049 --> 00:27:18.319 avoid. In your great book, The Peaceable Kingdom, 00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:22.440 which you subtitle A Primer of Christian Ethics, 00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:24.880 and it's all written in light of nonviolence, 00:27:24.980 --> 00:27:30.940 you talk about the kingdom of God from that perspective 00:27:30.940 --> 00:27:36.980 of Gandhi's nonviolence. And, you know, I'm so 00:27:36.980 --> 00:27:40.539 moved that you said Jesus is nonviolence. Gandhi 00:27:40.539 --> 00:27:44.029 said the kingdom of God is nonviolence. which 00:27:44.029 --> 00:27:47.130 I think is a very powerful theological statement. 00:27:47.710 --> 00:27:50.970 Well, that means... It's not like Gandhi hadn't 00:27:50.970 --> 00:27:53.349 read the New Testament. Yeah, he knew it better 00:27:53.349 --> 00:27:58.109 than all of us. He did, and that Setagaria is 00:27:58.109 --> 00:28:05.390 a powerful account of what I would think is very 00:28:05.390 --> 00:28:08.670 close to Christian nonviolence. Mm -hmm. And, 00:28:08.670 --> 00:28:18.680 I mean, in the great... the British, where some 00:28:18.680 --> 00:28:24.480 of Gandhi's followers acted violently against 00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:27.660 the British, and Gandhi called off the strike, 00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:32.119 you began to see what a disciplined activity 00:28:32.119 --> 00:28:41.220 nonviolence is, because Gandhi wouldn't let even... 00:28:43.880 --> 00:28:47.220 He wouldn't let his followers act violently toward 00:28:47.220 --> 00:28:53.460 the British. They could demonstrate, but they 00:28:53.460 --> 00:28:58.640 couldn't hit. Well, we have so far to go compared 00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:03.220 to where he did. I mean, so few people understand 00:29:03.220 --> 00:29:06.519 that level of nonviolence, much less any kind 00:29:06.519 --> 00:29:09.839 of vision of nonviolence. When we talk about 00:29:09.839 --> 00:29:13.529 the kingdom of God, from the perspective of nonviolence, 00:29:13.609 --> 00:29:17.930 it's just so powerful. And I guess I want to 00:29:17.930 --> 00:29:20.269 ask you to unpack it a little bit for us. The 00:29:20.269 --> 00:29:22.589 way I always look at it means, well, I mean, 00:29:22.650 --> 00:29:26.009 I hear the Isaiah quote in the title of your 00:29:26.009 --> 00:29:27.990 book, The Peaceable Kingdom, where the lion and 00:29:27.990 --> 00:29:30.230 the lamb and the child lay down and no more death 00:29:30.230 --> 00:29:33.089 or tears or killing on all my holy mountain, 00:29:33.170 --> 00:29:37.630 that in God's reign, there's no war, no killing. 00:29:38.569 --> 00:29:42.289 No discrimination or prejudice or offense or 00:29:42.289 --> 00:29:47.309 violence of any kind. No more death. And we're 00:29:47.309 --> 00:29:50.549 to live like that now, as if it's at hand and 00:29:50.549 --> 00:29:53.630 we're living in a realm of universal love. Is 00:29:53.630 --> 00:30:02.990 that how you see the peaceable kingdom? The easy 00:30:02.990 --> 00:30:08.839 answer is yes. The hard answer is... If you give 00:30:08.839 --> 00:30:14.119 a yes, why is it more of reality in the world 00:30:14.119 --> 00:30:20.079 than we now experience it? And the answer is 00:30:20.079 --> 00:30:27.359 we are disobedient and refuse to live lives that 00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:53.869 are constituted by that kind of kingdom. with 00:30:53.869 --> 00:31:03.289 disdain. One of the aspects, John, that is oftentimes 00:31:03.289 --> 00:31:14.490 not discussed as part of nonviolence is the extremely 00:31:14.490 --> 00:31:20.309 important patients are living nonviolently in 00:31:20.309 --> 00:31:26.440 the world. We want to have our goods and have 00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:34.740 them soon, but God is patient with us in terms 00:31:34.740 --> 00:31:38.319 of our unfaithfulness in a way that gives us. 00:32:26.059 --> 00:32:59.869 Bye -bye. Well, unfortunately, we're running 00:32:59.869 --> 00:33:02.950 out of time. I want to ask you one big last question, 00:33:02.990 --> 00:33:06.509 and that's about this world today and your suggestions 00:33:06.509 --> 00:33:10.410 to everyone listening as people who are trying 00:33:10.410 --> 00:33:14.269 to follow the nonviolent Jesus and create that 00:33:14.269 --> 00:33:17.430 space and fidelity of the peaceable kingdom. 00:33:17.549 --> 00:33:20.430 So here we are suffering through the Trump administration. 00:33:23.009 --> 00:33:26.210 rising authoritarianism, fascism, tyranny, white 00:33:26.210 --> 00:33:30.410 supremacy, the dismantling of democracy. And 00:33:30.410 --> 00:33:32.789 we could go on and on about the threat of nuclear 00:33:32.789 --> 00:33:35.890 war, the coming environmental destruction that 00:33:35.890 --> 00:33:40.150 we're wreaking havoc on the planet, and to the 00:33:40.150 --> 00:33:43.569 Ukraine war and our funding of the killing of 00:33:43.569 --> 00:33:47.470 children in Gaza and so forth and so on. And 00:33:47.470 --> 00:33:50.789 now the rising of Christian nationalism. like 00:33:50.789 --> 00:33:57.009 never before here in the U .S. So as we wrap 00:33:57.009 --> 00:34:01.410 this up, any closing words of encouragement for 00:34:01.410 --> 00:34:04.109 folks about following the nonviolent Jesus in 00:34:04.109 --> 00:34:10.349 this bad time? People put down nonviolence because 00:34:10.349 --> 00:34:17.349 they can ask questions about what would you do 00:34:17.349 --> 00:34:23.210 about the Russian invasion. Ukraine, what would 00:34:23.210 --> 00:34:26.949 you do about Gaza? And it seems like as people 00:34:26.949 --> 00:34:30.309 committed to nonviolence, we have nothing to 00:34:30.309 --> 00:34:36.510 say. But what that means is, as people committed 00:34:36.510 --> 00:34:43.250 to nonviolence, we need to think ahead about 00:34:43.250 --> 00:34:48.530 what kind of people we need to be in order to 00:34:48.530 --> 00:35:22.210 not be. Well, I... Thank you so much, Stanley 00:35:22.210 --> 00:35:24.590 Hauerwas, for speaking with me today. And it's 00:35:24.590 --> 00:35:27.309 really a blessing to be connected with you again. 00:35:27.489 --> 00:35:29.989 And I want to thank everyone for listening to 00:35:29.989 --> 00:35:32.309 this episode of the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. 00:35:32.829 --> 00:35:36.690 You can hear more podcasts and find other upcoming 00:35:36.690 --> 00:35:41.570 Zoom programs at www .beatitudescenter .org. 00:35:42.130 --> 00:35:45.429 And please consider offering a donation to support 00:35:45.429 --> 00:35:48.360 this free work. And if you can, please leave 00:35:48.360 --> 00:35:52.320 some positive feedback or review at the NCR or 00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:55.079 Apple or Spotify or whatever platform you use. 00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:58.199 And please tell your friends and colleagues about 00:35:58.199 --> 00:36:01.559 this podcast. So may the God of peace bless you 00:36:01.559 --> 00:36:04.119 all and keep on following the nonviolent Jesus 00:36:04.119 --> 00:36:05.659 and see you next time.