WEBVTT 00:00:14.220 --> 00:00:17.140 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:17.140 --> 00:00:19.600 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:19.600 --> 00:00:23.039 with my friend Rivera Sun. This is a project 00:00:23.039 --> 00:00:27.800 of www .beatitudecenter .org, where you can find 00:00:27.800 --> 00:00:30.739 many other podcasts and regular Zoom programs 00:00:30.739 --> 00:00:34.820 on the nonviolence of Jesus and practicing nonviolence 00:00:34.820 --> 00:00:37.799 and working for a more just, more nonviolent 00:00:37.799 --> 00:00:41.420 world. So let's begin with a little prayer, as 00:00:41.420 --> 00:00:44.880 I usually like to do. So I just invite you, wherever 00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:48.439 you are, just to take a deep breath and to relax, 00:00:48.619 --> 00:00:53.759 and let's all recenter ourselves into the spirit 00:00:53.759 --> 00:00:56.640 of peace, the presence of the God of peace, of 00:00:56.640 --> 00:01:01.159 universal love, and welcome the nonviolent Jesus, 00:01:01.299 --> 00:01:03.880 and just take a moment to ask for whatever graces 00:01:03.880 --> 00:01:07.819 we need to fulfill our vocations as peacemakers. 00:01:12.680 --> 00:01:15.500 God of peace, spirit of peace, thank you for 00:01:15.500 --> 00:01:19.000 the blessings of life, love, and peace. Be with 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:24.299 us as we reflect on your call to practice nonviolence, 00:01:24.299 --> 00:01:27.840 to be peacemakers, and to work for a more nonviolent, 00:01:27.859 --> 00:01:31.340 more just world. Bless us, inspire us, disarm 00:01:31.340 --> 00:01:34.799 us, strengthen us, and send us out to do our 00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:37.659 part to help end poverty, racism, greed, injustice, 00:01:38.099 --> 00:01:41.260 war, and nuclear weapons, and environmental destruction. 00:01:42.239 --> 00:01:45.760 that we might be your holy peacemakers and welcome 00:01:45.760 --> 00:01:49.040 your reign of universal love, nonviolence, and 00:01:49.040 --> 00:01:53.040 peace on earth. Amen. So it's a great pleasure 00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:57.159 to welcome today my friend Rivera Sun, who's 00:01:57.159 --> 00:02:00.120 an author and activist, written many books and 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:04.000 novels, including The Dandelion Insurrection 00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:08.439 and the award -winning Ari Ara series. She's 00:02:08.439 --> 00:02:11.860 the editor of Nonviolent News. Nonviolence News, 00:02:12.139 --> 00:02:15.639 and the program coordinator for Campaign Nonviolence, 00:02:15.659 --> 00:02:19.379 which is a project of PaceandBene .org, which 00:02:19.379 --> 00:02:22.120 Rivera and I used to work together on the staff 00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:27.219 years ago. Her articles are published through 00:02:27.219 --> 00:02:30.280 Peace Voice and in hundreds of journals nationwide. 00:02:30.800 --> 00:02:34.060 And she's on the board of Backbone Campaign and 00:02:34.060 --> 00:02:38.199 the advisory board of World Beyond War. And I 00:02:38.199 --> 00:02:40.819 invite everyone to... Read about her and get 00:02:40.819 --> 00:02:44.840 her books. You can check out her website, RiveraSon 00:02:44.840 --> 00:02:48.840 .com. So welcome, Rivera, to the Nonviolent Jesus 00:02:48.840 --> 00:02:52.039 Podcast. Thanks for being with me today. Thanks 00:02:52.039 --> 00:02:53.759 so much, John, and thanks for the great work 00:02:53.759 --> 00:02:55.900 that you're doing with this podcast. Great, and 00:02:55.900 --> 00:02:59.280 thank you for all your good work. Well, I think 00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:02.060 of you as one of our great teachers and researchers 00:03:02.060 --> 00:03:05.599 about grassroots movements of nonviolent resistance. 00:03:06.259 --> 00:03:08.659 So I thought we could start there and you could 00:03:08.659 --> 00:03:12.599 just reflect as you'd wish to tell all the thousands 00:03:12.599 --> 00:03:15.900 of people listening about what's going on in 00:03:15.900 --> 00:03:20.580 the U .S. And from your perspective there at 00:03:20.580 --> 00:03:23.199 your home in Maine, what signs of resistance 00:03:23.199 --> 00:03:25.639 are you seeing as you look out in the country 00:03:25.639 --> 00:03:29.560 in this new era? time under the Trump administration 00:03:29.560 --> 00:03:34.259 that we're all enduring. Yeah, thank you. We 00:03:34.259 --> 00:03:38.740 are seeing an unprecedented wave of organizing, 00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:43.280 of activism, of protests. We had the No Kings 00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:46.900 protest last month or a little while ago that 00:03:46.900 --> 00:03:51.000 brought out somewhere between 4 and 11 million 00:03:51.000 --> 00:03:54.439 people, depending on which estimate you're going 00:03:54.439 --> 00:03:58.520 by. which is one of the largest single days of 00:03:58.520 --> 00:04:01.840 protests ever in U .S. history. And what we're 00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:04.539 really seeing is that the erosion of civil liberties, 00:04:04.680 --> 00:04:07.460 the undermining of constitutional law, the attacks 00:04:07.460 --> 00:04:12.620 on health care, on social services, public services. 00:04:13.340 --> 00:04:16.240 is galvanizing a lot of people to express how 00:04:16.240 --> 00:04:19.540 upset they are with what's going on in this country. 00:04:19.920 --> 00:04:23.920 Things like the immigration crackdown and the 00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:28.120 ICE raids or the sending of National Guard and 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:32.699 Marines to occupy Los Angeles have really got 00:04:32.699 --> 00:04:35.779 people very concerned about the rising authoritarianism. 00:04:35.980 --> 00:04:40.160 And we're seeing a kind of corresponding rise 00:04:40.160 --> 00:04:44.209 of people. Not just protesting, but engaging 00:04:44.209 --> 00:04:47.470 in all forms of non -cooperation, intervention, 00:04:47.850 --> 00:04:52.089 all these non -violent tactics. Well, that's 00:04:52.089 --> 00:04:54.449 encouraging. One of the things that's happening 00:04:54.449 --> 00:04:58.470 this week as you and I are recording is the launch 00:04:58.470 --> 00:05:01.569 of something called One Million Rising, which 00:05:01.569 --> 00:05:05.649 I just heard about from you. through campaignnonviolence 00:05:05.649 --> 00:05:09.110 .org. Tell us about that, because it may be over 00:05:09.110 --> 00:05:11.490 with by the time people listen to this, but it's 00:05:11.490 --> 00:05:16.050 another great sign. One Million Rising was an 00:05:16.050 --> 00:05:19.910 effort to train, mobilize, and gather together 00:05:19.910 --> 00:05:23.290 a million people to learn specifically about 00:05:23.290 --> 00:05:26.269 the part of the nonviolent action toolbox that 00:05:26.269 --> 00:05:31.100 we call non -cooperation. And it's distinct from 00:05:31.100 --> 00:05:33.620 things like protest and persuasion where we lift 00:05:33.620 --> 00:05:37.379 our voices, we say what's wrong. And it's not 00:05:37.379 --> 00:05:39.399 necessarily the same as acts of intervention 00:05:39.399 --> 00:05:41.660 where you literally put your body in front of 00:05:41.660 --> 00:05:45.199 tanks or, you know, shut down a road. Acts of 00:05:45.199 --> 00:05:48.180 non -cooperation are where we withdraw our support 00:05:48.180 --> 00:05:52.160 and our cooperation and our participation or 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:56.600 our expected obedience in systems. Some of the 00:05:56.600 --> 00:05:59.139 large organizations that have been mobilizing 00:05:59.139 --> 00:06:02.500 for these rallies, namely Indivisible and No 00:06:02.500 --> 00:06:05.680 Kings, collaborated on bringing people together 00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:08.600 to be trained by a group called Freedom Trainers, 00:06:08.600 --> 00:06:11.980 by folks like Daniel Hunter and Maria Stephan, 00:06:12.259 --> 00:06:15.040 Maria Stephan being one of our two foremost authorities 00:06:15.040 --> 00:06:18.459 in civil resistance, particularly against the 00:06:18.459 --> 00:06:21.560 kind of authoritarianism that we're looking at 00:06:21.560 --> 00:06:26.399 right now. On the first day of training, they 00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:29.560 had over 100 ,000 people registered, all told 00:06:29.560 --> 00:06:32.339 between the people who watched live, who watched 00:06:32.339 --> 00:06:34.420 the live streams, who followed up with the recording. 00:06:34.500 --> 00:06:39.459 Over 130 ,000 people engaged with this information 00:06:39.459 --> 00:06:43.839 and this knowledge about how we resist authoritarians, 00:06:43.839 --> 00:06:46.579 how we use acts of non -cooperation, what that 00:06:46.579 --> 00:06:49.860 means. And then thousands of them followed up 00:06:49.860 --> 00:06:53.540 by organizing local resistance gatherings. where 00:06:53.540 --> 00:06:56.639 they passed on this information to their local 00:06:56.639 --> 00:06:59.699 community. This is part of an effort to say, 00:06:59.839 --> 00:07:03.339 we need street protests, we need street demonstrations, 00:07:03.579 --> 00:07:06.240 but we also need to go further if we want to 00:07:06.240 --> 00:07:09.079 stop the abuses that we're seeing. That's going 00:07:09.079 --> 00:07:12.100 to look like many of the things that we have 00:07:12.100 --> 00:07:16.480 been seeing, but on a much larger scale. We know 00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:19.959 that the Tesla takedown campaign was a very successful 00:07:19.959 --> 00:07:23.189 boycott that just... who omitted Tesla's stocks 00:07:23.189 --> 00:07:26.350 over the behaviors of what Elon Musk was doing, 00:07:26.430 --> 00:07:31.350 undermining public services. This is an act of 00:07:31.350 --> 00:07:35.889 non -cooperation. All boycotts are. We also are 00:07:35.889 --> 00:07:38.529 seeing people standing up to ICE, particularly 00:07:38.529 --> 00:07:41.250 teachers have been taking very bold stands to 00:07:41.250 --> 00:07:43.850 say, you know, it's just not acceptable to arrest 00:07:43.850 --> 00:07:46.829 children's parents. and leave them stranded at 00:07:46.829 --> 00:07:50.209 school or to come into school grounds and terrorize 00:07:50.209 --> 00:07:53.029 the children looking for undocumented immigrants. 00:07:54.129 --> 00:07:56.769 We're also seeing thousands of people be trained 00:07:56.769 --> 00:07:59.089 in Know Your Rights training so that they can 00:07:59.089 --> 00:08:02.529 really use the strength of the law to say to 00:08:02.529 --> 00:08:05.310 ICE, no, you can't raid this workplace without 00:08:05.310 --> 00:08:09.899 an actual judicial warrant. So these are acts 00:08:09.899 --> 00:08:12.720 of non -cooperation where people say, no, I will 00:08:12.720 --> 00:08:14.839 not do this. I will not let you do this. I will 00:08:14.839 --> 00:08:18.040 not go along with what is happening. And one 00:08:18.040 --> 00:08:20.360 of the goals of the One Million Rising is to 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:24.160 say these are the kinds of actions that we need 00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:26.550 if we're going to... meet the times that we're 00:08:26.550 --> 00:08:29.310 in and meet the challenges that we face. So it's 00:08:29.310 --> 00:08:31.350 a very encouraging thing to see this develop. 00:08:31.610 --> 00:08:34.029 It takes the energy of the mass demonstrations 00:08:34.029 --> 00:08:37.610 that we've been seeing on April 5th, on May Day, 00:08:37.850 --> 00:08:41.590 on No King's Day, and helps people do what they're 00:08:41.590 --> 00:08:44.169 hungry for, which is go to the next level and 00:08:44.169 --> 00:08:47.370 find out how they can really start to cooperate 00:08:47.370 --> 00:08:51.269 and organize and plan and strategize for this 00:08:51.269 --> 00:08:55.159 next level of action. Thank you, Rivera. You've 00:08:55.159 --> 00:08:58.440 been giving workshops and weekends across the 00:08:58.440 --> 00:09:01.299 country over the years, talking about movement 00:09:01.299 --> 00:09:06.080 building, how movements work, and how we go to 00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:08.480 those next levels of non -cooperation and all 00:09:08.480 --> 00:09:11.559 the different aspects of grassroots nonviolent 00:09:11.559 --> 00:09:15.299 resistance. And one of the key teachings you 00:09:15.299 --> 00:09:18.340 have is about knocking down the pillars, the 00:09:18.340 --> 00:09:21.320 structures that uphold these systems of injustice 00:09:21.320 --> 00:09:25.120 and oppression. tyranny we're seeing. Tell us 00:09:25.120 --> 00:09:29.259 about that. Any of the way you present the theories 00:09:29.259 --> 00:09:32.080 or how movements work, and in particular, this 00:09:32.080 --> 00:09:35.240 idea of the pillars that are upholding the injustice. 00:09:36.360 --> 00:09:40.200 Yeah, movements succeed because of two main dynamics. 00:09:40.419 --> 00:09:44.519 One is our participation in them. And participation 00:09:44.519 --> 00:09:47.539 is the single most biggest determinant of success 00:09:47.539 --> 00:09:49.399 for a movement. So it's really important that 00:09:49.399 --> 00:09:52.419 we join in. Whether that's a street protest or 00:09:52.419 --> 00:09:55.100 a boycott, our participation and outreach to 00:09:55.100 --> 00:09:58.259 others is vitally important. But the second part 00:09:58.259 --> 00:10:01.519 of that is this analysis tool that we call the 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:05.820 pillars of support. And it's the idea that power 00:10:05.820 --> 00:10:08.740 holders alone, let's say a president or a dictator, 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:13.220 they don't have power on their own. If they give 00:10:13.220 --> 00:10:17.379 an order to go dig a ditch. Unless we cooperate 00:10:17.379 --> 00:10:20.019 and we obey and we pick up the shovels and go 00:10:20.019 --> 00:10:24.000 dig the ditch, the power holder doesn't have 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:28.980 that power magically, right? So the pillars of 00:10:28.980 --> 00:10:31.440 support are these different sectors of society, 00:10:31.740 --> 00:10:35.120 things like the military and the police, civil 00:10:35.120 --> 00:10:39.080 society groups, education like universities and 00:10:39.080 --> 00:10:45.120 students, the media, the courts. the businesses, 00:10:45.320 --> 00:10:49.159 the unions, and the workers. These different 00:10:49.159 --> 00:10:52.100 categories are each different pillars that either 00:10:52.100 --> 00:10:56.879 prop up the regime or the dictator, or they say, 00:10:56.940 --> 00:11:00.159 no, we will not prop you up. We will not give 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:03.179 the weight of our time, our money, our skills, 00:11:03.399 --> 00:11:05.980 our capacity, and our support to what you're 00:11:05.980 --> 00:11:09.259 doing. So in nonviolent struggle, what we try 00:11:09.259 --> 00:11:13.179 to do is to Engage with those pillars to get 00:11:13.179 --> 00:11:15.860 them to withdraw their support. And then that 00:11:15.860 --> 00:11:19.600 the dictator, which you can imagine sitting on 00:11:19.600 --> 00:11:22.960 top of those pillars, if he doesn't have support 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:27.399 from them, his regime will collapse. And that's 00:11:27.399 --> 00:11:29.519 what we mean by the pillars of support model. 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:32.840 And in Nonviolent Struggle, what we try to do 00:11:32.840 --> 00:11:37.059 is use things like demonstrations or boycotts 00:11:37.059 --> 00:11:42.720 or shutdowns or walkouts or blockades to get 00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:45.460 those pillars to either directly engage in the 00:11:45.460 --> 00:11:50.740 movement and join the, say, the boycott, or step 00:11:50.740 --> 00:11:54.299 aside and simply don't participate in supporting 00:11:54.299 --> 00:11:57.820 the dictator or the power holder. And this has 00:11:57.820 --> 00:12:01.480 been really instrumental. We definitely know 00:12:01.480 --> 00:12:05.259 that this is a critical thing that has made movements 00:12:05.259 --> 00:12:07.580 either succeed or fail, whether or not they can 00:12:07.580 --> 00:12:09.460 get these pillars to withdraw their support. 00:12:12.100 --> 00:12:16.779 Well, here we are, just only, it's hard to believe, 00:12:16.919 --> 00:12:19.320 like eight months into the Trump administration 00:12:19.320 --> 00:12:22.740 with theoretically years to go, lest we all do 00:12:22.740 --> 00:12:26.659 what you're suggesting. And we're witnessing 00:12:26.659 --> 00:12:29.279 the dismantling of democracy and so many forms 00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:32.820 of injustice and so much suffering. I know this 00:12:32.820 --> 00:12:35.100 is almost silly to ask, but what do you think 00:12:35.100 --> 00:12:37.960 needs to happen in light of all your understanding 00:12:37.960 --> 00:12:42.419 of movements in the next months and years, movement 00:12:42.419 --> 00:12:45.460 -wise, in general, if you could say something 00:12:45.460 --> 00:12:49.440 like that? I think, first of all, each of us 00:12:49.440 --> 00:12:51.620 needs to sit down and do a little soul -searching 00:12:51.620 --> 00:12:55.639 and decide whether this is a normal... presidency 00:12:55.639 --> 00:12:59.299 that we disagree with the policies of, or this 00:12:59.299 --> 00:13:03.220 is a presidency that has stepped outside the 00:13:03.220 --> 00:13:05.759 rule of law, outside the confines of what the 00:13:05.759 --> 00:13:09.080 job is all about. That's going to change how 00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:13.000 we approach resistance. We're always going to 00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:16.820 oppose unjust policies. We're always going to 00:13:16.820 --> 00:13:19.500 rally to stop the damages from hurting ourselves 00:13:19.500 --> 00:13:22.200 and our communities. We're going to do our best 00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:25.659 to respond to the barrage of terrible ideas that 00:13:25.659 --> 00:13:27.279 seems to be coming out of the White House these 00:13:27.279 --> 00:13:31.820 days. But if this administration decides that 00:13:31.820 --> 00:13:33.919 it doesn't want to be constrained by the rule 00:13:33.919 --> 00:13:36.379 of law, it doesn't want to obey the courts, it 00:13:36.379 --> 00:13:38.899 doesn't want to give up power when it comes time 00:13:38.899 --> 00:13:41.879 to elect a new president, let's say, it doesn't 00:13:41.879 --> 00:13:45.840 want to... follow the laws that govern the land. 00:13:46.100 --> 00:13:48.799 He wants to do things like send troops all over 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:51.480 the country without invoking the Posse Comitatus 00:13:51.480 --> 00:13:54.820 Act or the Insurrection Act, both of which are 00:13:54.820 --> 00:13:59.419 illegal and unconstitutional to do. He can't 00:13:59.419 --> 00:14:02.519 send troops to U .S. soil without one of those 00:14:02.519 --> 00:14:05.679 two things, and he doesn't have it. So if this 00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:08.620 is not a normal presidency, then we need to think 00:14:08.620 --> 00:14:11.500 about, is it time to respond in a way that isn't 00:14:11.500 --> 00:14:14.340 normal? The normal way would be to wait another 00:14:14.340 --> 00:14:17.500 three and a half years and then elect somebody 00:14:17.500 --> 00:14:20.179 new, right? That would be our normal process. 00:14:20.980 --> 00:14:23.919 The not -so -normal way would be to say that 00:14:23.919 --> 00:14:27.419 we need to invoke the articles of impeachment. 00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:31.159 Trump has already committed something like 19 00:14:31.159 --> 00:14:35.039 impeachable offenses. The list is long, and it's 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:38.240 growing every single day. There's plenty of material 00:14:38.240 --> 00:14:41.139 by which to impeach, convict, and remove. him 00:14:41.139 --> 00:14:44.320 from office. But what we lack is the political 00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:47.460 will of our legislators who need to stand up 00:14:47.460 --> 00:14:51.419 for the Constitution and get it done. So I would 00:14:51.419 --> 00:14:54.080 say that, you know, if we think that this is 00:14:54.080 --> 00:14:56.720 an authoritarian regime that no longer is being 00:14:56.720 --> 00:14:59.000 constrained by the laws that govern this land, 00:14:59.220 --> 00:15:01.360 we have to get ready for a struggle like that. 00:15:01.460 --> 00:15:03.740 And that's where we have to look to. Historic 00:15:03.740 --> 00:15:07.159 examples all over the world, things like Serbia 00:15:07.159 --> 00:15:11.080 ousting Milosevic or the Philippines rising up 00:15:11.080 --> 00:15:15.919 against Ferdinand Marcos. We are lucky we have 00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:18.919 an impeachment process that we can push our legislators 00:15:18.919 --> 00:15:24.120 to do. We just saw South Korea in 2024 go through 00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:27.720 that exact process after their president falsely 00:15:27.720 --> 00:15:31.139 invoked the martial law. And so they impeached 00:15:31.139 --> 00:15:35.960 their president. got him out of office. So this 00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:38.360 is just one thing that I think we need to do 00:15:38.360 --> 00:15:40.759 is do some soul searching. What kind of a situation, 00:15:41.059 --> 00:15:44.720 what kind of a mess, how deep it is, and how 00:15:44.720 --> 00:15:48.580 do we need to respond because of that? That said, 00:15:48.759 --> 00:15:51.679 we do need to stop the damages as many as we 00:15:51.679 --> 00:15:54.399 can, wherever we can. We need to push for accountability 00:15:54.399 --> 00:15:58.419 wherever we can and try to uphold the systems 00:15:58.419 --> 00:16:01.370 and the institutions. that have kept democracy 00:16:01.370 --> 00:16:06.450 in place. And speaking of democracy, we can't 00:16:06.450 --> 00:16:09.269 take our eye off that. If we want to live in 00:16:09.269 --> 00:16:12.330 a democratic society, we have to insist on it 00:16:12.330 --> 00:16:15.889 and demand it. And this isn't just with the administration. 00:16:16.190 --> 00:16:21.389 This is also with things like masked ICE agents 00:16:21.389 --> 00:16:24.490 roaming about our communities and snatching people 00:16:24.490 --> 00:16:29.320 off the street. That is terrifying. That is not 00:16:29.320 --> 00:16:32.559 the kind of country that I was raised to believe 00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:34.960 in or to expect that we would ever witness at 00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:38.480 this level. And we need to maintain our sense 00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:42.279 of perspective on this, that this is not acceptable. 00:16:42.379 --> 00:16:45.679 It's not okay. We need to make sure that all 00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:47.840 of our institutions are standing up for their 00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:50.019 independence, things like universities. We're 00:16:50.019 --> 00:16:52.159 seeing Harvard and all these other universities 00:16:52.159 --> 00:16:55.179 push back against the administration's attempt 00:16:55.179 --> 00:16:57.480 to control them and to cut off their funding 00:16:57.480 --> 00:17:00.799 and to censor them. We need media institutions 00:17:00.799 --> 00:17:05.240 to not bow down to the censorship or the control 00:17:05.240 --> 00:17:07.839 of one administration, but stand up for the free 00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:10.880 press. So there's lots and lots of work to do. 00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:13.720 But I would say one of the big things that got 00:17:13.720 --> 00:17:17.240 us into this mess that we can work on as a society 00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:21.839 is non -cooperating with corporations and billionaires. 00:17:22.019 --> 00:17:25.319 They already have too much money and power. And 00:17:25.319 --> 00:17:27.779 so every day that we participate in their systems 00:17:27.779 --> 00:17:31.720 as buyers, as sellers, as consumers, is yet another 00:17:31.720 --> 00:17:35.339 day that we're giving them more power. We're 00:17:35.339 --> 00:17:39.539 giving away our power to them. For example, there's 00:17:39.539 --> 00:17:42.779 140 million people in this country who have an 00:17:42.779 --> 00:17:46.079 Amazon Prime account. And every month they give 00:17:46.079 --> 00:17:51.960 $15 to Jeff Bezos and Amazon Prime. I think that 00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:55.799 we should all stop that. We should stop giving 00:17:55.799 --> 00:17:58.859 our $15 a month to Amazon Prime and take it back 00:17:58.859 --> 00:18:01.799 and give it to our local community. Give it to 00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:04.380 your local farmers. Give it to a mutual aid network. 00:18:05.160 --> 00:18:07.279 Or just stashed away for a rainy day because 00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:09.660 the way that our economy is going, we're going 00:18:09.660 --> 00:18:13.539 to need that. So this list goes on. There's a 00:18:13.539 --> 00:18:15.859 lot of things we can do. Staying connected to 00:18:15.859 --> 00:18:18.019 the many types of campaigns that are out there 00:18:18.019 --> 00:18:21.279 on the many issues is a great idea. And, you 00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:25.140 know, try to stay grounded. Try to find your 00:18:25.140 --> 00:18:27.759 place and plug in and not run around like a chicken 00:18:27.759 --> 00:18:31.740 with your head cut off and trying to do everything. 00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:35.339 So, you know, find what you want to work on and 00:18:35.339 --> 00:18:37.359 do that because we need you in the movement. 00:18:37.420 --> 00:18:42.160 Thank you, Rivera. I wonder if you could be specific 00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:44.799 in a few campaigns that people might want to 00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:49.440 consider taking part in this fall and next year. 00:18:49.700 --> 00:18:52.660 So, for example, Campaign on Violence, which 00:18:52.660 --> 00:18:54.579 you're working hard on, but there are others. 00:18:54.619 --> 00:18:57.740 Maybe just list a few that make sure people know 00:18:57.740 --> 00:19:02.460 about them. What are ones that are growing? need 00:19:02.460 --> 00:19:06.319 people from all walks of life. Yeah, absolutely. 00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:09.339 So this One Million Rising campaign I just mentioned, 00:19:09.519 --> 00:19:12.500 there will be new rounds of that and new ways 00:19:12.500 --> 00:19:17.019 to plug in. So please do go check it out and 00:19:17.019 --> 00:19:19.559 connect to those who are working on non -cooperation. 00:19:20.359 --> 00:19:25.559 The Target Fast has also expanded its approach 00:19:25.559 --> 00:19:29.740 to pressuring Target to uphold DEI, diversity, 00:19:29.779 --> 00:19:32.859 equity, and inclusion. They're now also working 00:19:32.859 --> 00:19:36.539 on Amazon. So supporting those boycott campaigns, 00:19:36.900 --> 00:19:40.079 we saw how effective Tesla takedown was, so keeping 00:19:40.079 --> 00:19:44.160 your eye out for that. You know, the big rallies 00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:48.900 like No Kings and 5051 and Indivisible and Women's 00:19:48.900 --> 00:19:51.759 March, keep showing up for those because we need 00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:55.390 to show our strength. Wherever you can find a 00:19:55.390 --> 00:19:58.930 local group working on resisting ICE, I think 00:19:58.930 --> 00:20:01.349 it's great to connect with them and at least 00:20:01.349 --> 00:20:05.849 support mutual aid for them. If you're not in 00:20:05.849 --> 00:20:08.210 a position to be someone who directly confronts 00:20:08.210 --> 00:20:11.589 ICE agents, then support them in other ways. 00:20:12.009 --> 00:20:16.809 And mutual aid. Mutual aid is how we show solidarity, 00:20:17.049 --> 00:20:20.799 not charity. How we recognize that the economic 00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:24.099 policies of this administration are causing economic 00:20:24.099 --> 00:20:27.220 hardship for millions of Americans right now. 00:20:27.339 --> 00:20:31.079 And the social safety net is eroding and crumbling. 00:20:31.700 --> 00:20:35.359 So making sure that we stock our food pantries, 00:20:35.380 --> 00:20:38.740 making sure that we help at the food bank, making 00:20:38.740 --> 00:20:41.420 sure that we check in with new mothers and fathers 00:20:41.420 --> 00:20:43.480 and making sure that they have that little extra 00:20:43.480 --> 00:20:45.980 support that they need as they're trying to raise 00:20:45.980 --> 00:20:49.549 their kids. making sure that someone can meet 00:20:49.549 --> 00:20:52.130 rent so that they're not thrown out in the cold. 00:20:52.509 --> 00:20:54.849 This is what mutual aid is about. It helps us 00:20:54.849 --> 00:20:57.630 maintain our strength as a populace while we 00:20:57.630 --> 00:21:01.309 push to resist the big problems. Oh, that's beautiful. 00:21:01.410 --> 00:21:04.890 Thank you. Well, you know, you've also done a 00:21:04.890 --> 00:21:07.309 lot of work studying nonviolent movements around 00:21:07.309 --> 00:21:09.509 the world, and you've mentioned some of them. 00:21:10.250 --> 00:21:13.849 I wonder if you could want to say anything else 00:21:13.849 --> 00:21:17.410 about... What you see happening elsewhere in 00:21:17.410 --> 00:21:19.930 the world, you know, Erica Chenoweth and Maria, 00:21:20.130 --> 00:21:23.549 Stefan, Maria was on the podcast, have been saying 00:21:23.549 --> 00:21:26.569 that more has been happening in the last 50 years 00:21:26.569 --> 00:21:30.589 in terms of global participation in grassroots 00:21:30.589 --> 00:21:34.589 movements than ever before in history. What are 00:21:34.589 --> 00:21:38.569 you seeing? That's absolutely true. Just a few 00:21:38.569 --> 00:21:41.829 weeks ago, we saw India hold a one -day strike. 00:21:42.430 --> 00:21:46.950 that mobilized 250 to 350 million people. Imagine 00:21:46.950 --> 00:21:50.029 that. The entire size of the U .S. population 00:21:50.029 --> 00:21:55.329 went on strike for a day. Why? Why? They did 00:21:55.329 --> 00:21:58.869 it because the Modi government is rolling out 00:21:58.869 --> 00:22:01.950 a series of labor reforms or trying to do so. 00:22:02.349 --> 00:22:06.170 And they were upset because it's going to lower 00:22:06.170 --> 00:22:08.950 wages. It's going to lower workplace safety. 00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:13.140 impact many of the things that workers rely on 00:22:13.140 --> 00:22:16.720 in India. So 10 big unions went on strike. They 00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:20.180 represented 150 million people. And if you can 00:22:20.180 --> 00:22:22.960 imagine, every person who's part of that union 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:24.880 who's going to go on strike because the union 00:22:24.880 --> 00:22:28.220 striking said to their partner or their sibling 00:22:28.220 --> 00:22:33.039 or their friend, go on strike with me. That quickly 00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:37.349 you get to 300 million people. So that was an 00:22:37.349 --> 00:22:42.650 extraordinary action that happened in mid -July. 00:22:43.170 --> 00:22:47.470 But it is indicative of this kind of rising swell 00:22:47.470 --> 00:22:50.150 of activity that we're seeing. We're seeing mass 00:22:50.150 --> 00:22:53.970 protests against corruption in Serbia and against 00:22:53.970 --> 00:22:58.789 authoritarianism in Hungary. Ukraine had huge 00:22:58.789 --> 00:23:03.250 protests against Zelensky's attempt to kind of 00:23:03.250 --> 00:23:06.380 roll back. some of their anti -corruption agencies' 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:10.440 independence. This is very unusual in the war 00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:14.339 context that they're in. But we are seeing people, 00:23:14.420 --> 00:23:18.839 you know, recognize that if our democratic institutions 00:23:18.839 --> 00:23:21.980 falter and if they backslide and if they can't 00:23:21.980 --> 00:23:24.359 do the job of protecting the people or ensuring 00:23:24.359 --> 00:23:28.690 a livable planet or opposing a war, then we the 00:23:28.690 --> 00:23:31.069 people need to. We need to reach for the tools 00:23:31.069 --> 00:23:34.349 of nonviolent action, which I consider, you know, 00:23:34.349 --> 00:23:36.490 in this country, we talk about the three systems 00:23:36.490 --> 00:23:38.930 of checks and balances. So we have the executive 00:23:38.930 --> 00:23:41.930 branch, we have the legislative branch, and we 00:23:41.930 --> 00:23:44.990 have the judicial branch. But I maintain that 00:23:44.990 --> 00:23:47.130 there's a fourth system of checks and balance, 00:23:47.210 --> 00:23:50.650 and that is people using nonviolent action. Over 00:23:50.650 --> 00:23:53.309 and over again, when those three institutions 00:23:53.309 --> 00:23:56.559 fail to stand up for justice, It is the people 00:23:56.559 --> 00:23:59.440 using nonviolent action who say a change must 00:23:59.440 --> 00:24:02.759 occur. We saw this with the suffragettes. We 00:24:02.759 --> 00:24:05.640 saw this with the civil rights movement, with 00:24:05.640 --> 00:24:08.200 the labor movement, with the environmental movement. 00:24:08.420 --> 00:24:10.660 And we're going to see it again in support of 00:24:10.660 --> 00:24:14.819 democracy. You know, Americans have lots of challenges, 00:24:14.940 --> 00:24:19.220 but our love for democracy is not one of them. 00:24:19.259 --> 00:24:22.619 That has been an unshakable value in this country 00:24:22.619 --> 00:24:25.660 for a very long time. And I think we're going 00:24:25.660 --> 00:24:28.420 to see that this country will rise up for it 00:24:28.420 --> 00:24:30.940 again. And that's a vision and a goal that I 00:24:30.940 --> 00:24:33.880 know that I'm working for as well. Well, that's 00:24:33.880 --> 00:24:37.740 great. Thank you. It's very powerful the way 00:24:37.740 --> 00:24:42.019 you put it and gives me hope. And yet, we're 00:24:42.019 --> 00:24:45.539 so many struggles at home for democracy and around 00:24:45.539 --> 00:24:49.140 the world and human rights and social justice 00:24:49.140 --> 00:24:53.400 in all new ways. But hovering over the whole 00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:58.940 planet are these two catastrophic forces, nuclear 00:24:58.940 --> 00:25:02.200 weapons and climate change. Although a lot of 00:25:02.200 --> 00:25:04.220 people now say there's a third that's leading 00:25:04.220 --> 00:25:08.339 us to the brink, which is another pandemic. So, 00:25:08.339 --> 00:25:11.880 and in the past, a lot of us, I myself spent 00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:15.000 a lot of my life organizing and resisting nuclear 00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:18.319 weapons. But now we're just so spread thin. I 00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:21.220 guess I want to ask you. Any thoughts about, 00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:23.680 especially nuclear weapons and climate change, 00:25:23.960 --> 00:25:29.039 how can we keep those movements, the environmental 00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:31.480 movement and the anti -nuclear movement moving 00:25:31.480 --> 00:25:35.779 when we're all struggling just with basic rights? 00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:38.859 And maybe that's why in the end it's a soul -searching 00:25:38.859 --> 00:25:42.039 question. We each do what we feel we can or what 00:25:42.039 --> 00:25:46.119 we're called to do. You know, I think one of 00:25:46.119 --> 00:25:48.309 the... things that gives me a lot of faith in 00:25:48.309 --> 00:25:50.309 nonviolent action is that a lot of these struggles 00:25:50.309 --> 00:25:52.369 that I study around the world happen in places 00:25:52.369 --> 00:25:55.210 where people don't enjoy very many democratic 00:25:55.210 --> 00:25:59.009 rights and freedoms. Their right to speak out 00:25:59.009 --> 00:26:02.109 is severely restricted. Their right to assemble, 00:26:02.369 --> 00:26:05.289 like for a march or a rally, is very restricted. 00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:09.339 But they still have this toolbox of over 300 00:26:09.339 --> 00:26:11.980 different methods of nonviolent struggle. And 00:26:11.980 --> 00:26:14.440 even when it's outlawed, they will reach for 00:26:14.440 --> 00:26:17.299 things like strikes and boycotts. So disguise 00:26:17.299 --> 00:26:22.099 them cleverly as a call -in sick day or a work 00:26:22.099 --> 00:26:25.519 -slow strike like they used in Chile when they 00:26:25.519 --> 00:26:28.140 wanted to resist the dictator Pinochet, but they 00:26:28.140 --> 00:26:31.759 couldn't go on strike. Everybody slowed down, 00:26:32.079 --> 00:26:34.480 like they literally walked slowly through the 00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:37.740 streets. They literally shopped slowly. And suddenly 00:26:37.740 --> 00:26:40.140 everybody knew that everybody opposed the dictator. 00:26:41.220 --> 00:26:44.500 So, you know, nonviolent action is incredibly 00:26:44.500 --> 00:26:48.000 creative and versatile. And that's what gives 00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:50.140 me a little bit of hope, even though things are 00:26:50.140 --> 00:26:53.740 pretty bleak right now, that we have more power 00:26:53.740 --> 00:26:56.539 than we think. We have way more tools than most 00:26:56.539 --> 00:27:01.450 of us know. And I think about things like in 00:27:01.450 --> 00:27:07.589 Pakistan in 2009, their president went toe -to 00:27:07.589 --> 00:27:09.589 -toe with their Supreme Court justice and kicked 00:27:09.589 --> 00:27:12.190 the Supreme Court justice off the bench. And 00:27:12.190 --> 00:27:14.730 the lawyers immediately started picketing outside 00:27:14.730 --> 00:27:16.750 the courts. It was kind of interesting because 00:27:16.750 --> 00:27:19.230 they didn't file a lawsuit. They decided to use 00:27:19.230 --> 00:27:22.769 nonviolent action. And so then, you know, this 00:27:22.769 --> 00:27:25.779 went on for a while. And the president started 00:27:25.779 --> 00:27:28.759 getting his hackles up, and he ended up closing 00:27:28.759 --> 00:27:32.460 the courts and disbanding the Congress. So things 00:27:32.460 --> 00:27:37.579 got even worse, right? And so the lawyers and 00:27:37.579 --> 00:27:40.779 the judges decided they would not obey the closing 00:27:40.779 --> 00:27:44.299 of the courts. They went and they opened 75 % 00:27:44.299 --> 00:27:46.740 of the courts in the country and just held normal 00:27:46.740 --> 00:27:49.440 court proceedings saying, we're not going to 00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:54.049 obey you. Then the president had to back down 00:27:54.049 --> 00:27:56.069 a little bit and he had to reinstate some of 00:27:56.069 --> 00:27:59.029 the judges and repeal martial law and reinstate 00:27:59.029 --> 00:28:02.109 Congress. But he didn't do the full measure of 00:28:02.109 --> 00:28:04.609 what they needed. So they organized thousands 00:28:04.609 --> 00:28:08.750 of lawyers to march on this long march. And then 00:28:08.750 --> 00:28:12.549 it became a motorcade through Pakistan to the 00:28:12.549 --> 00:28:15.230 capital. And as the motorcade got closer and 00:28:15.230 --> 00:28:18.970 closer and closer. it became this thing like, 00:28:19.089 --> 00:28:21.190 is the president going to back down? What's going 00:28:21.190 --> 00:28:23.730 to happen when we reach the city? And sure enough, 00:28:23.829 --> 00:28:27.349 as they reached the city, the president actually 00:28:27.349 --> 00:28:30.890 backtracked and was forced to step down out of 00:28:30.890 --> 00:28:34.509 power. This story goes on. There's many chapters, 00:28:34.650 --> 00:28:38.210 but it's a great illustrative example of, you 00:28:38.210 --> 00:28:40.690 know, these tools are here for us when the going 00:28:40.690 --> 00:28:43.970 gets tough. They're here for us when all of our 00:28:43.970 --> 00:28:47.579 rights and freedoms seem to go away. And when 00:28:47.579 --> 00:28:49.960 we reach for them, we find that power that we 00:28:49.960 --> 00:28:52.940 really need. So if we're looking at climate justice, 00:28:53.240 --> 00:28:56.019 you know, and we see the doors closing on the 00:28:56.019 --> 00:28:58.680 federal level, a lot of climate organizers are 00:28:58.680 --> 00:29:01.019 saying, okay, we're going to the cities. The 00:29:01.019 --> 00:29:03.859 cities are going to be the agency of change. 00:29:03.980 --> 00:29:05.880 It's where we're going to get in solar panels. 00:29:05.940 --> 00:29:07.779 It's where we're going to get public transportation. 00:29:07.819 --> 00:29:11.220 It's where we're going to... Change the zoning 00:29:11.220 --> 00:29:14.440 laws so we stop doing a lot of carbon emission 00:29:14.440 --> 00:29:18.599 through heating and housing. So, you know, where 00:29:18.599 --> 00:29:20.660 there's a will, there's a way. And we just got 00:29:20.660 --> 00:29:25.019 to keep going. Wow, that's great. Maybe because 00:29:25.019 --> 00:29:27.619 we're running out of time, I could just ask you 00:29:27.619 --> 00:29:30.920 one last question. In your workshops and your 00:29:30.920 --> 00:29:33.259 teaching as you work with people around the country. 00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:38.640 What basic points would you have about, I'm calling 00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:42.059 it holistic nonviolence, maintaining your personal 00:29:42.059 --> 00:29:47.099 nonviolence and practicing peace as we go forward 00:29:47.099 --> 00:29:50.180 in creative ways and nonviolent action and doing 00:29:50.180 --> 00:29:53.559 what we can to resist? You spoke earlier about 00:29:53.559 --> 00:29:56.619 making sure we're all grounded, staying grounded. 00:29:56.740 --> 00:29:59.359 That's really nice. But can you be more specific? 00:29:59.859 --> 00:30:04.700 What suggestions do you have for folks? to sustain 00:30:04.700 --> 00:30:08.140 themselves for the long haul in this work of 00:30:08.140 --> 00:30:13.339 grassroots nonviolence movements? Yeah, there's 00:30:13.339 --> 00:30:15.599 many things I am thinking about every single 00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:19.079 day. One is don't go alone. Find friends and 00:30:19.079 --> 00:30:22.599 do it together. Two is take breaks. This is going 00:30:22.599 --> 00:30:24.640 to be a marathon, not a sprint, and it's got 00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:26.799 to be like a relay race. That's why you need 00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:29.220 friends. You've got to pass that torch to them 00:30:29.220 --> 00:30:31.319 and then pick it up when your turn comes again. 00:30:32.460 --> 00:30:35.299 I've been trying to do a practice where I take 00:30:35.299 --> 00:30:39.480 a breath and then act because when I get hot 00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:42.160 and bothered, it's very easy for me to react 00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:44.599 without thinking, and I might not act in the 00:30:44.599 --> 00:30:47.559 way that I want to. So I've been trying to train 00:30:47.559 --> 00:30:51.319 myself, particularly in my crazy inbox, before 00:30:51.319 --> 00:30:56.549 I hit send on an email to take a breath. This 00:30:56.549 --> 00:30:59.210 becomes a habit for myself, no matter where I 00:30:59.210 --> 00:31:01.710 am, whether I'm at a protest or whether I'm at 00:31:01.710 --> 00:31:04.430 a meeting or whether I'm, you know, just really 00:31:04.430 --> 00:31:06.930 upset about the next bit of news and about the 00:31:06.930 --> 00:31:11.589 snap at my partner, to take a breath, then act. 00:31:12.430 --> 00:31:15.009 And there are things that I am really challenged 00:31:15.009 --> 00:31:17.470 to do in these times, but are very deep principles 00:31:17.470 --> 00:31:19.970 of nonviolence, like be against the injustice, 00:31:20.410 --> 00:31:24.089 not people. Don't go after the humans involved. 00:31:24.210 --> 00:31:29.609 Go after the behavior. Go after the policy. Go 00:31:29.609 --> 00:31:33.670 after the injustice. Because people can and will 00:31:33.670 --> 00:31:35.910 change, and we want to make the space for them 00:31:35.910 --> 00:31:39.609 to do that. And then the one thing that I've 00:31:39.609 --> 00:31:43.730 been thinking about a lot is to try not to become 00:31:43.730 --> 00:31:49.210 what you oppose. I think nothing would satisfy 00:31:49.210 --> 00:31:53.660 the forces of... hate and destruction more than 00:31:53.660 --> 00:31:58.019 to turn all of us into forces of hate and destruction 00:31:58.019 --> 00:32:01.839 as well, against them or for them, one way or 00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:05.660 the other. So reclaiming your humanity, reclaiming 00:32:05.660 --> 00:32:07.619 your sense of love, reclaiming your sense of 00:32:07.619 --> 00:32:11.279 integrity and purpose, I think are great acts 00:32:11.279 --> 00:32:14.299 of resistance in this time, and very deep, very 00:32:14.299 --> 00:32:18.529 profound ones. So these are some of the practices 00:32:18.529 --> 00:32:21.930 that I'm doing in terms of how I'm trying to 00:32:21.930 --> 00:32:26.009 really embody the deepest principles of nonviolence 00:32:26.009 --> 00:32:28.630 that I can. And it's not easy. Well, thank you 00:32:28.630 --> 00:32:31.410 for sharing that. It's really encouraging and 00:32:31.410 --> 00:32:34.609 it's great wisdom. And I hope we can all join 00:32:34.609 --> 00:32:37.890 you in staying grounded like that and going forward 00:32:37.890 --> 00:32:41.119 for the long haul. So thank you so much, Rivera 00:32:41.119 --> 00:32:43.640 -san, for speaking with me today. And thank you, 00:32:43.640 --> 00:32:46.640 friends, for listening to this episode of the 00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:50.299 Nonviolent Jesus podcast. You can hear more podcasts 00:32:50.299 --> 00:32:54.500 and find other upcoming Zoom programs at BeatitudesCenter 00:32:54.500 --> 00:32:58.519 .org. Please consider offering a donation to 00:32:58.519 --> 00:33:01.640 support this free work. And if you can, to leave 00:33:01.640 --> 00:33:05.880 some positive feedback or review at NCR or Apple 00:33:05.880 --> 00:33:09.339 or Spotify or whatever platform you use. And 00:33:09.339 --> 00:33:12.019 please help spread the word by telling your friends 00:33:12.019 --> 00:33:15.140 and colleagues about this podcast. So may the 00:33:15.140 --> 00:33:17.700 God of peace bless you all and keep on following 00:33:17.700 --> 00:33:20.680 the nonviolent Jesus and see you all next time.