WEBVTT 00:00:15.240 --> 00:00:18.239 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:18.239 --> 00:00:20.820 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:20.820 --> 00:00:24.219 with my friend Brad Wolf, editor of the recent 00:00:24.219 --> 00:00:26.960 collection of writings by the legendary activist 00:00:26.960 --> 00:00:32.439 Philip Berrigan. This is a project of www .beatitudescenter 00:00:32.439 --> 00:00:36.000 .org where you can find many other podcasts and 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:39.200 regular Zoom programs on the nonviolence of Jesus 00:00:39.200 --> 00:00:42.240 and practicing nonviolence and working for a 00:00:42.240 --> 00:00:46.240 more just, more nonviolent world. So let's begin 00:00:46.240 --> 00:00:49.060 with a little prayer. I invite you wherever you 00:00:49.060 --> 00:00:52.780 are just to take a deep breath and to relax. 00:00:54.479 --> 00:00:57.759 And recenter yourself and together let's all 00:00:57.759 --> 00:01:01.399 enter into the presence of the God of peace who 00:01:01.399 --> 00:01:04.280 loves each one of us infinitely, personally, 00:01:04.579 --> 00:01:09.700 and everyone everywhere. And let's welcome the 00:01:09.700 --> 00:01:13.920 risen nonviolent Jesus here in our midst and 00:01:13.920 --> 00:01:16.599 take a moment to ask for whatever graces we need 00:01:16.599 --> 00:01:19.379 to follow him more faithfully and do God's will. 00:01:25.769 --> 00:01:29.170 God of peace, thank you for all the blessings 00:01:29.170 --> 00:01:31.829 of life and love and peace that you give us. 00:01:32.010 --> 00:01:34.709 Be with us now as we reflect together on your 00:01:34.709 --> 00:01:38.629 call to follow the nonviolent Jesus and work 00:01:38.629 --> 00:01:41.969 for a more nonviolent, more just world. Bless 00:01:41.969 --> 00:01:45.489 us, inspire us, disarm us, strengthen us, and 00:01:45.489 --> 00:01:48.900 send us out to do your will. and to do our part, 00:01:48.920 --> 00:01:51.959 like Philip Berrigan, to help end war and nuclear 00:01:51.959 --> 00:01:55.980 weapons, as well as poverty, racism, greed, injustice, 00:01:56.340 --> 00:01:59.400 and environmental destruction, that we too might 00:01:59.400 --> 00:02:02.200 be your holy peacemakers, your beatitude people, 00:02:02.480 --> 00:02:06.359 and welcome your reign of universal love, nonviolence, 00:02:06.379 --> 00:02:11.020 and peace on earth. In Jesus' name, amen. Well, 00:02:11.060 --> 00:02:13.439 it's a pleasure to welcome my friend Brad Wolf 00:02:13.439 --> 00:02:16.719 from Lancaster, Pennsylvania. Brad is a former 00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:20.740 prosecutor, professor, community college dean, 00:02:20.960 --> 00:02:25.120 and the executive director of Peace Action Network 00:02:25.120 --> 00:02:28.199 of Lancaster. He's the co -coordinator of the 00:02:28.199 --> 00:02:31.960 Merchants of Death War Crimes Tribunal and currently 00:02:31.960 --> 00:02:33.960 working as the chair of the U .S. Organizing 00:02:33.960 --> 00:02:37.659 Committee for the People's Tribunal on the Korean 00:02:37.659 --> 00:02:44.560 Victims of the 1945 Atomic Bombings. Brad recently 00:02:44.560 --> 00:02:47.439 edited the first ever collection of writings 00:02:47.439 --> 00:02:50.780 on peace and nonviolence by Philip Berrigan called 00:02:50.780 --> 00:02:53.759 A Ministry of Risk, which is published by Fordham 00:02:53.759 --> 00:02:56.319 University Press, which I hope everyone will 00:02:56.319 --> 00:03:00.180 get. I just always encourage everyone to read 00:03:00.180 --> 00:03:03.719 and study the lives and writings of Daniel and 00:03:03.719 --> 00:03:06.919 Philip Berrigan. They were my lifelong friends 00:03:06.919 --> 00:03:11.949 and teachers and mentors. Brad Wolf, welcome 00:03:11.949 --> 00:03:15.710 to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. Thank you, John. 00:03:15.810 --> 00:03:17.629 It's good to be here. I appreciate you having 00:03:17.629 --> 00:03:20.110 me on. Great. Well, we're going to jump right 00:03:20.110 --> 00:03:22.530 into it, and I've sent you some of these questions. 00:03:22.650 --> 00:03:26.050 I want to kind of walk through Phil's life and 00:03:26.050 --> 00:03:31.050 ask you to reflect or comment on it. Just before 00:03:31.050 --> 00:03:34.909 I begin all that, I met Brad about, I don't know, 00:03:34.949 --> 00:03:39.210 10 years ago, but we got arrested together just 00:03:39.210 --> 00:03:42.219 before the pandemic. with Jane Fonda and Reverend 00:03:42.219 --> 00:03:49.139 Barber at the Fire Drill Fridays protests in 00:03:49.139 --> 00:03:51.580 Washington, D .C., then the pandemic happened 00:03:51.580 --> 00:03:54.099 and we were talking on the phone. And Brad, you 00:03:54.099 --> 00:03:56.879 said to me, when are you going to put together 00:03:56.879 --> 00:04:00.080 a book of the writings of Philip Berrigan? To 00:04:00.080 --> 00:04:02.500 which I said, I just got too much going on. Why 00:04:02.500 --> 00:04:06.569 don't you do it? And wow, Brad did it. So thank 00:04:06.569 --> 00:04:09.590 you. And you're the only person I know of who's 00:04:09.590 --> 00:04:14.009 gone through all of Phil's papers at the Cornell 00:04:14.009 --> 00:04:17.250 Archives and the DePaul Archives. I went through 00:04:17.250 --> 00:04:20.610 all of Dan's papers for my book, Daniel Berrigan, 00:04:20.629 --> 00:04:26.829 Essential Writings. And so that's where you have 00:04:26.829 --> 00:04:30.209 a unique perspective. Brad didn't know Phil. 00:04:30.509 --> 00:04:33.649 I knew him for 20 years, but he brings a fresh 00:04:33.649 --> 00:04:37.269 appreciation that has been really helpful to 00:04:37.269 --> 00:04:40.050 me as I reflect on Phil. He was such a large 00:04:40.050 --> 00:04:42.629 in the life person in my life. So Phil was a 00:04:42.629 --> 00:04:45.350 Josephite priest working in New Orleans, advocating 00:04:45.350 --> 00:04:48.370 civil rights. His Jesuit brother, Daniel, both 00:04:48.370 --> 00:04:51.350 began to speak out against war and nuclear weapons 00:04:51.350 --> 00:04:53.329 around the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis. 00:04:54.220 --> 00:04:56.660 But then the Vietnam War started, and they just 00:04:56.660 --> 00:04:59.399 both went full -time working against that war. 00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:02.939 Dan as a writer, poet, and teacher, and Phil 00:05:02.939 --> 00:05:06.019 as a parish priest, but secretly an organizer 00:05:06.019 --> 00:05:11.500 of demonstrations. And by 1967, he found that 00:05:11.500 --> 00:05:13.839 he wasn't making any difference, writing letters, 00:05:14.019 --> 00:05:16.420 meeting with officials. And so that October, 00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:20.339 he and three others really shocked the country. 00:05:20.500 --> 00:05:24.100 They called themselves the Baltimore Four. when 00:05:24.100 --> 00:05:26.639 they walked into a local draft board office and 00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:32.079 started pouring blood on the files of young guys 00:05:32.079 --> 00:05:35.079 being shipped off to Vietnam. And it ushered 00:05:35.079 --> 00:05:39.040 in a whole new type of kind of militant, nonviolent 00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:41.920 resistance in the anti -war movement. So, Brad, 00:05:42.079 --> 00:05:44.720 tell me about your journey with the writings 00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:49.439 and your take on all that led up to what happened 00:05:49.439 --> 00:05:53.319 at the Baltimore Four in 1967. Because it was 00:05:53.319 --> 00:05:57.439 so shocking. It was indeed. And the journey has 00:05:57.439 --> 00:06:00.459 been an incredible one for me. As you mentioned, 00:06:00.540 --> 00:06:03.839 I didn't know Phil personally, so I came to know 00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:07.259 him through his writings. And that was very powerful 00:06:07.259 --> 00:06:10.399 for me to dig into the archives, to see his letters, 00:06:10.500 --> 00:06:13.420 his journals, and to get to know the man through 00:06:13.420 --> 00:06:17.100 what he wrote while in prison or while planning 00:06:17.100 --> 00:06:22.790 these resistance activities. In 1967, as you 00:06:22.790 --> 00:06:25.470 mentioned, Phil would become frustrated with 00:06:25.470 --> 00:06:28.870 the fact that his speaking out, his letter writing, 00:06:28.949 --> 00:06:30.930 and his article writing, and even meeting with 00:06:30.930 --> 00:06:33.250 government officials was not doing anything to 00:06:33.250 --> 00:06:36.389 change the course of the Vietnam War. And there 00:06:36.389 --> 00:06:39.449 were protests with large numbers of people. He 00:06:39.449 --> 00:06:42.149 came to believe that something dramatic needed 00:06:42.149 --> 00:06:45.149 to be done to really stir debate around the American 00:06:45.149 --> 00:06:48.339 dinner table. And nonviolence, as you know, has 00:06:48.339 --> 00:06:51.220 to be recreated for the present moment each time, 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:54.079 you know, Mahatma Gandhi holding up the salt 00:06:54.079 --> 00:06:56.660 during the salt march and Martin Luther King 00:06:56.660 --> 00:07:00.540 with the bus boycott. And so Phil and his colleagues 00:07:00.540 --> 00:07:03.779 began asking themselves, what's the symbol of 00:07:03.779 --> 00:07:07.100 the Vietnam War? How can we distill that war 00:07:07.100 --> 00:07:10.660 to its essence with a symbol and register our 00:07:10.660 --> 00:07:13.560 resistance? And they decided that it would be 00:07:13.560 --> 00:07:17.000 draft files. which were something that Phil referred 00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:20.620 to as human hunting licenses, because they were 00:07:20.620 --> 00:07:24.040 compelling young American men to go to a foreign 00:07:24.040 --> 00:07:27.639 country and kill or be killed. And he thought 00:07:27.639 --> 00:07:29.600 they were an offense, they were an injustice. 00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:33.879 And so they became an excellent symbol for Phil 00:07:33.879 --> 00:07:36.540 and his colleagues. And then the second question 00:07:36.540 --> 00:07:39.220 became, what do we do with that symbol? What 00:07:39.220 --> 00:07:41.680 do we do with the draft file once we have it? 00:07:42.250 --> 00:07:45.449 And Phil, being a Christian, a Catholic, a priest, 00:07:45.730 --> 00:07:49.050 the idea of pouring blood on them attracted him 00:07:49.050 --> 00:07:52.050 strongly. It could represent the spilled blood 00:07:52.050 --> 00:07:54.310 of Christ, and it could represent the spilled 00:07:54.310 --> 00:07:56.949 blood of so many Americans and Vietnamese who 00:07:56.949 --> 00:07:59.569 were dying at that time. And so that's what they 00:07:59.569 --> 00:08:02.149 did. They distilled the issue to its essence. 00:08:02.329 --> 00:08:05.009 They recreated nonviolence for the present moment. 00:08:05.069 --> 00:08:07.509 And they went into that draft office and took 00:08:07.509 --> 00:08:10.290 out draft files in Baltimore, and they poured 00:08:10.290 --> 00:08:14.329 blood on them. And as you say, it garnered enormous 00:08:14.329 --> 00:08:17.069 press attention, media attention around the world. 00:08:17.129 --> 00:08:19.889 There was a lengthy trial. He received a lengthy 00:08:19.889 --> 00:08:23.430 prison sentence. For that act alone, he received 00:08:23.430 --> 00:08:27.389 a sentence of four years. And that is what led 00:08:27.389 --> 00:08:30.569 him to continue his actions in places like Catonsville. 00:08:31.550 --> 00:08:34.409 So let's talk about Catonsville. And I'm just 00:08:34.409 --> 00:08:38.330 taking it all in, you know, because I heard these 00:08:38.330 --> 00:08:40.850 stories. But they still continued to energize 00:08:40.850 --> 00:08:48.149 me. Dan took a busload of 100 Cornell College 00:08:48.149 --> 00:08:50.950 students to the big mass mobilization at the 00:08:50.950 --> 00:08:55.070 Pentagon that October 1967 with no intention 00:08:55.070 --> 00:08:58.529 of doing anything. And all the young people went 00:08:58.529 --> 00:09:01.269 and got arrested. And Dan was the only one left 00:09:01.269 --> 00:09:04.009 as their chaplain. He was the chaplain at Cornell. 00:09:04.210 --> 00:09:09.690 So he got arrested with them. Thousands of young 00:09:09.690 --> 00:09:12.929 people were corralled over near RFK Stadium, 00:09:13.190 --> 00:09:17.409 that's now the D .C. Stadium, for two weeks held 00:09:17.409 --> 00:09:21.490 outside, and Dan was the first priest ever arrested. 00:09:22.190 --> 00:09:25.570 He's in the car being driven back to the Catholic 00:09:25.570 --> 00:09:28.470 worker from the jail, and he hears on the radio, 00:09:28.730 --> 00:09:31.389 Reverend Philip Berrigan and three others arrested 00:09:31.389 --> 00:09:34.250 for pouring blood, and he called his mother. 00:09:34.759 --> 00:09:36.980 The Berrigan mother, who was a really saintly 00:09:36.980 --> 00:09:38.919 person. Brad, I hope you don't mind me sharing 00:09:38.919 --> 00:09:41.799 these stories. Listening to you just pushes all 00:09:41.799 --> 00:09:44.940 my buttons. And now, you know, thinking about 00:09:44.940 --> 00:09:47.139 my own family when I've been in and out of jail, 00:09:47.259 --> 00:09:49.899 doesn't normally go over well with the family. 00:09:50.440 --> 00:09:55.779 And Mrs. Berrigan, who was just a total saint, 00:09:55.940 --> 00:09:58.679 Dan's going, I'm just out of jail. This never 00:09:58.679 --> 00:10:01.399 happened before. The priest had never been arrested 00:10:01.399 --> 00:10:04.139 in the United States before. And they're both 00:10:04.139 --> 00:10:07.580 on front page of the newspapers. And I'm just 00:10:07.580 --> 00:10:10.259 out, but I think Phil is going in for many years. 00:10:10.379 --> 00:10:13.139 And his mother paused and then said, now let 00:10:13.139 --> 00:10:16.399 me get this straight. You're out and he's in? 00:10:16.620 --> 00:10:19.039 And Dan said, yes. She said, okay, that's good. 00:10:19.759 --> 00:10:23.259 That's all I only comment. She was totally fine. 00:10:24.059 --> 00:10:30.940 So Dan goes to Vietnam with Howard Zinn in January. 00:10:31.899 --> 00:10:35.879 And he's going to rescue three American pilots 00:10:35.879 --> 00:10:39.120 who have been released by the Viet Cong. Only 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:42.899 the U .S. bombs the block they're on for the 00:10:42.899 --> 00:10:46.580 entire week. I always thought deliberately targeting 00:10:46.580 --> 00:10:51.440 Dan. And in that April, Dr. King is assassinated. 00:10:51.860 --> 00:10:55.000 And it was then in May while Phil was out on 00:10:55.000 --> 00:10:59.039 bond awaiting the trial that Phil drove up to 00:10:59.039 --> 00:11:02.730 Cornell and said, We're going back. We're going 00:11:02.730 --> 00:11:05.629 to do it again. And we got a bigger crew and 00:11:05.629 --> 00:11:10.509 we have an even better idea. So tell us about 00:11:10.509 --> 00:11:14.110 the action and your take on it all that led to 00:11:14.110 --> 00:11:19.009 this mythic trial that October 1968, which Dan 00:11:19.009 --> 00:11:21.330 then later made into a play that's still being 00:11:21.330 --> 00:11:25.220 performed around the world. It was an extraordinarily 00:11:25.220 --> 00:11:29.519 bold move by everybody involved. Phil, as you 00:11:29.519 --> 00:11:32.940 said, was out on bond at the time from the Baltimore 00:11:32.940 --> 00:11:35.460 arrest. He knew he was going to go to prison 00:11:35.460 --> 00:11:38.440 for a lengthy sentence at some point in the near 00:11:38.440 --> 00:11:41.799 future. But he wanted to do something else to 00:11:41.799 --> 00:11:45.700 generate even more interest, more concern about 00:11:45.700 --> 00:11:48.639 the Vietnam War. He wasn't satisfied with what 00:11:48.639 --> 00:11:51.490 had happened in Baltimore. So they came up with 00:11:51.490 --> 00:11:54.429 this idea to go into the draft office again in 00:11:54.429 --> 00:11:56.590 Catonsville, Maryland, a different location. 00:11:56.850 --> 00:11:59.929 And rather than blood, they were going to burn 00:11:59.929 --> 00:12:03.509 the files with homemade napalm. And of course, 00:12:03.529 --> 00:12:06.009 napalm is what the United States military was 00:12:06.009 --> 00:12:10.590 using extensively. It's jellied ammunition that 00:12:10.590 --> 00:12:12.850 is dropped from the air and burns flesh to the 00:12:12.850 --> 00:12:16.730 bone. So they used homemade napalm to destroy 00:12:16.730 --> 00:12:20.840 these files. So they went in. They take out the 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:23.080 files and Phil, of course, is dressed in his 00:12:23.080 --> 00:12:26.159 Roman collar, very much the conservative Catholic 00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:29.799 priest. And they take out this files and Dan 00:12:29.799 --> 00:12:32.519 is with him this time. And they've notified the 00:12:32.519 --> 00:12:35.440 media in advance. And in the parking lot, they 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:39.139 burn over 400 of these files as they recite the 00:12:39.139 --> 00:12:43.740 Lord's Prayer. This gets enormous interest from 00:12:43.740 --> 00:12:46.440 all facets of the U .S. government, including 00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:49.759 the FBI, including J. Edgar Hoover, who then 00:12:49.759 --> 00:12:52.659 makes it his lifelong mission to go after Phil 00:12:52.659 --> 00:12:57.120 and Dan Berrigan. And what Phil didn't know at 00:12:57.120 --> 00:12:59.940 the time was that there were no copies kept of 00:12:59.940 --> 00:13:02.419 these draft files. So when they destroyed them. 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:06.159 Those individuals whose files they destroyed 00:13:06.159 --> 00:13:09.840 could no longer be called up until a new file 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:13.559 was created. So it was both a symbolic action 00:13:13.559 --> 00:13:16.720 but a literal one too in slowing down the draft 00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:20.659 process. And again, these files, these human 00:13:20.659 --> 00:13:23.960 hunting licenses were something so repugnant 00:13:23.960 --> 00:13:27.460 to Phil. He has this quote where he says, those 00:13:27.460 --> 00:13:30.580 draft files to us are death or more precisely 00:13:30.580 --> 00:13:34.250 the mechanism of death. Our blood upon them is 00:13:34.250 --> 00:13:37.169 a tribute to life and a covenant with it. Our 00:13:37.169 --> 00:13:42.830 way of saying no more war, war never again. It's 00:13:42.830 --> 00:13:49.549 so hard to take in or to remember that, you know, 00:13:49.549 --> 00:13:52.509 there were no cell phones or faxes or computer. 00:13:53.580 --> 00:13:56.440 Or anything. So to have a little piece of paper 00:13:56.440 --> 00:13:59.120 with the name and address of the young kid who's 00:13:59.120 --> 00:14:01.480 going to be shipped off to Vietnam is the only 00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:09.080 record. So as you said, that was the end of any 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:13.919 connection with this potential soldier. So none 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:18.539 of those guys got drafted. The actions literally 00:14:18.539 --> 00:14:24.419 saved the lives of 400 people. people don't know 00:14:24.419 --> 00:14:28.940 was that that was just the first of 300 draft 00:14:28.940 --> 00:14:31.720 board raids. And that, you know, after years 00:14:31.720 --> 00:14:34.860 of this, there were some people burning 10 and 00:14:34.860 --> 00:14:39.539 20 ,000 files. Tell us, and I don't remember 00:14:39.539 --> 00:14:41.500 much of what Phil wrote about it because now 00:14:41.500 --> 00:14:43.799 he's in and out of prison, but he was quietly 00:14:43.799 --> 00:14:46.960 driving around and organizing all these incredible... 00:14:47.529 --> 00:14:50.330 Very serious civil disobedience actions. If you 00:14:50.330 --> 00:14:52.710 got caught, you were doing five to ten years 00:14:52.710 --> 00:14:56.230 in prison. Easy for destruction of government 00:14:56.230 --> 00:15:00.289 property. But it was ending the war. They couldn't 00:15:00.289 --> 00:15:02.269 manage the war because pretty much the whole 00:15:02.269 --> 00:15:06.169 northeast country, right, Brad, was losing its 00:15:06.169 --> 00:15:10.399 recruits. It was indeed. And as you said, so 00:15:10.399 --> 00:15:13.320 many others began to do these same actions because 00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:16.419 they realized the potency of them. Destroying 00:15:16.419 --> 00:15:19.179 the files was stopping the draft, stopping the 00:15:19.179 --> 00:15:22.299 flow of soldiers to Vietnam. It was having an 00:15:22.299 --> 00:15:27.240 enormous effect. And from 1966 to 1973, there 00:15:27.240 --> 00:15:30.580 were hundreds and hundreds of these draft card 00:15:30.580 --> 00:15:34.600 office, draft file office raids. and tens of 00:15:34.600 --> 00:15:36.940 thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of files 00:15:36.940 --> 00:15:40.840 destroyed. So this was a really effective way 00:15:40.840 --> 00:15:43.740 to take government property that Phil believed 00:15:43.740 --> 00:15:47.019 had no right to exist, no more right than the 00:15:47.019 --> 00:15:50.220 gas chambers of Auschwitz had a right to exist. 00:15:50.500 --> 00:15:52.840 It had no right to exist and therefore could 00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:57.139 be destroyed. And so creating this kind of new 00:15:57.139 --> 00:16:01.779 form of nonviolent resistance spread like wildfire 00:16:01.779 --> 00:16:04.899 across the country. Others embraced it. And that's 00:16:04.899 --> 00:16:07.679 one of the wonderful things about creative nonviolence 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:09.960 is that when you come up with a particular method, 00:16:10.200 --> 00:16:13.639 others will follow and take up the banner. And 00:16:13.639 --> 00:16:16.600 that happened here. And Phil continued to spend 00:16:16.600 --> 00:16:20.080 his time while out on bond, organizing other 00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:23.600 draft file office raids, encouraging others to 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:27.220 take the same kind of risk that he and his colleagues 00:16:27.220 --> 00:16:30.159 were taking. And that's why the title of Ministry 00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:33.120 of Risk, I felt, was so important when I first 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:36.620 found that quote, because he felt that's what 00:16:36.620 --> 00:16:39.799 everybody should do. Not just a priest, not just 00:16:39.799 --> 00:16:43.080 a pastor, but everybody should take on that ministry 00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:45.899 of risk. Yeah, read us that quote and tell us 00:16:45.899 --> 00:16:48.139 why you think everyone should do that. I never 00:16:48.139 --> 00:16:52.340 heard such a phrase before. It's a really wonderful 00:16:52.340 --> 00:16:55.899 quote. And, you know, I was going through the 00:16:55.899 --> 00:16:58.419 files the first day of Cornell. And on the very 00:16:58.419 --> 00:17:01.460 first day, I pulled this one typewritten lecture 00:17:01.460 --> 00:17:04.180 out of Sills. And I saw it was titled A Ministry 00:17:04.180 --> 00:17:06.960 of Risk and Liberation. And I knew right away 00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:09.079 that that was going to be the title, A Ministry 00:17:09.079 --> 00:17:12.839 of Risk. And the quote is this. A ministry of 00:17:12.839 --> 00:17:15.799 risk goes unerringly to the side of the victims, 00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:19.220 to those threatened or destroyed by greed, prejudice 00:17:19.220 --> 00:17:22.910 and war. From the side of those victims, it teaches 00:17:22.910 --> 00:17:26.470 two simple, indisputable lessons. Number one, 00:17:26.509 --> 00:17:29.369 that we all belong in the ditch or in the breach 00:17:29.369 --> 00:17:32.710 with the victims. And number two, that until 00:17:32.710 --> 00:17:36.430 we go to the ditch or into the breach, victimizing 00:17:36.430 --> 00:17:41.170 will not cease. I was blown away by that statement. 00:17:41.250 --> 00:17:45.069 I thought it was incredibly powerful and I thought 00:17:45.069 --> 00:17:48.599 it was... a good representation of what Phil's 00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:53.700 life of witness and sacrifice was. He said that 00:17:53.700 --> 00:17:56.559 the minister and the church have to concentrate 00:17:56.559 --> 00:17:59.920 on awakening God in the people where God joins 00:17:59.920 --> 00:18:04.079 them in liberation. And liberation was a word 00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:08.099 that Phil used a great deal because he felt liberated 00:18:08.099 --> 00:18:12.059 by doing these kind of actions. You're reminding 00:18:12.059 --> 00:18:17.849 me of... When I first met Phil in 1982, I'm a 00:18:17.849 --> 00:18:21.069 dopey 21 -year -old Jesuit novice, and I went 00:18:21.069 --> 00:18:23.150 on the retreat in the basement of a church in 00:18:23.150 --> 00:18:25.410 Washington, D .C. with Phil and Liz. There were 00:18:25.410 --> 00:18:27.910 about 100 of us. And at the end, we were going 00:18:27.910 --> 00:18:31.150 to go to have a demonstration at the Pentagon, 00:18:31.410 --> 00:18:35.130 as you do. That was what you did on retreat for 00:18:35.130 --> 00:18:38.809 the Feast of the Holy Innocents. And he was just 00:18:38.809 --> 00:18:41.730 so—he was this towering figure. He was tough 00:18:41.730 --> 00:18:45.599 and just— kind of yelling, we all got to do what 00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:47.759 we can to get rid of nuclear weapons and end 00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:50.839 war. Okay, yeah, that's good. Yeah, I'm with 00:18:50.839 --> 00:18:53.599 you, Phil. And then we drive over to the Pentagon. 00:18:54.259 --> 00:18:57.079 And I don't know what they're going to do. And 00:18:57.079 --> 00:19:02.579 Brad, they took out like gallons of blood that 00:19:02.579 --> 00:19:05.339 they had, you know, nurses had taken the week 00:19:05.339 --> 00:19:08.279 before. And in those days, you could walk right 00:19:08.279 --> 00:19:12.380 into the Pentagon. You can't now. But there was 00:19:12.380 --> 00:19:15.099 a massive mall in the Pentagon. I mean, the Pentagon 00:19:15.099 --> 00:19:17.700 is hundreds of thousands of people. And we go 00:19:17.700 --> 00:19:20.519 right into the mall. And there's a hundred of 00:19:20.519 --> 00:19:24.880 us in a circle. And Phil takes out gallons. And 00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:30.220 they just pour blood everywhere. Like 50 yards 00:19:30.220 --> 00:19:34.400 of it. I'd never seen blood before. And it freaked 00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:37.700 me out. And then others started doing it. And 00:19:37.700 --> 00:19:40.980 then they were all hauled off and arrested. I 00:19:40.980 --> 00:19:44.980 was scared to death. And Phil had said to me, 00:19:45.140 --> 00:19:48.240 you know, if you want to follow Jesus, John, 00:19:48.299 --> 00:19:50.480 you have to come and get arrested with us. I 00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:53.680 did a couple months later. But, Brad, you're 00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:57.960 the first person who's upheld that side of the 00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:01.039 Barragans. Risk. Because unlike anybody I'd ever 00:20:01.039 --> 00:20:05.240 met before, they were saying, All you people 00:20:05.240 --> 00:20:08.240 are completely wrong about Christianity. It has 00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:11.380 nothing to do with going to church, sitting back, 00:20:11.559 --> 00:20:15.759 being nice and pious. Christianity is we're going 00:20:15.759 --> 00:20:18.380 to the Pentagon and we're going to confront it 00:20:18.380 --> 00:20:20.859 until they drag us away. Because that's what 00:20:20.859 --> 00:20:22.579 Jesus did and that's what happened to him and 00:20:22.579 --> 00:20:25.319 we're his followers and that's that. And I was 00:20:25.319 --> 00:20:29.720 scared being with Phil even until the week he 00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:33.930 died because there was nobody like him. I'm sorry 00:20:33.930 --> 00:20:36.150 I'm talking so much, Brad, but it's so much fun 00:20:36.150 --> 00:20:38.789 to bring back all these memories. Brad, I want 00:20:38.789 --> 00:20:43.130 you to, I could go on and on, but reflect a little 00:20:43.130 --> 00:20:45.890 bit about the 1970s. And then I want to ask you 00:20:45.890 --> 00:20:49.750 about the Plowshares. So in the 1970s, Phil is 00:20:49.750 --> 00:20:52.589 in prison for two and three years. And then there's 00:20:52.589 --> 00:20:54.690 the Harrisburg trial. And he and Dan are on the 00:20:54.690 --> 00:20:57.230 cover of Time magazine. And they're just all 00:20:57.230 --> 00:21:01.289 over the place and just denouncing the war left 00:21:01.289 --> 00:21:03.970 and right. As you said, Hooger. J. Edward Hoover 00:21:03.970 --> 00:21:08.410 is just obsessed with them. And they're released 00:21:08.410 --> 00:21:11.430 from prison. And Phil marries Liz. They move 00:21:11.430 --> 00:21:15.069 to Baltimore and create Jonah House, which is 00:21:15.069 --> 00:21:17.829 where I first met them. And it was a community 00:21:17.829 --> 00:21:21.029 of full -time nonviolent resistance. Now, they 00:21:21.029 --> 00:21:23.589 used to have a newsletter, which I got. And they 00:21:23.589 --> 00:21:26.230 were writing all the time. I don't know how much 00:21:26.230 --> 00:21:30.049 of it you read. But what was so original there 00:21:30.049 --> 00:21:34.819 from the 1970s up till... Phil died, was you 00:21:34.819 --> 00:21:37.579 had a community that was basically engaged in 00:21:37.579 --> 00:21:40.799 nonviolent civil disobedience as permanent new 00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:43.900 way of life in the United States, permanent resistance 00:21:43.900 --> 00:21:46.619 to the culture of war. So they were always taking 00:21:46.619 --> 00:21:50.980 turns getting arrested. And I think that's what's 00:21:50.980 --> 00:21:53.799 needed now. I wonder your thoughts about that 00:21:53.799 --> 00:21:57.960 whole era of the 70s at Jonah House. I think 00:21:57.960 --> 00:22:00.400 that's one of the most important eras, parts 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:03.730 of Phil's life. that we need to look at that 00:22:03.730 --> 00:22:07.710 time from 1973 until his death in 2002 because 00:22:07.710 --> 00:22:11.390 that demonstrates to us what resistance for the 00:22:11.390 --> 00:22:15.910 long haul looks like and it's easy to get very 00:22:15.910 --> 00:22:19.009 motivated very energized for a short time about 00:22:19.009 --> 00:22:22.069 a particular issue but how do you maintain that 00:22:22.069 --> 00:22:26.190 kind of energy for four decades and i think his 00:22:26.190 --> 00:22:28.710 time at jonah house and his writings during that 00:22:28.710 --> 00:22:32.680 period demonstrate that And it's because he lived 00:22:32.680 --> 00:22:35.420 by certain principles. As you say, Phil lived 00:22:35.420 --> 00:22:38.140 in community, and that was important to him. 00:22:38.259 --> 00:22:40.420 He would emphasize that again and again, that 00:22:40.420 --> 00:22:42.240 if you're going to make it for the long haul, 00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:45.299 you need to live with others. And you need to 00:22:45.299 --> 00:22:48.720 live in this larger human family. this global 00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:51.900 human family but at jonah house it was a community 00:22:51.900 --> 00:22:54.640 of colleagues and family and their children and 00:22:54.640 --> 00:22:57.720 they shared duties and they shared food and then 00:22:57.720 --> 00:22:59.640 they would go to prison and then they would come 00:22:59.640 --> 00:23:02.539 home and raise children and paint houses for 00:23:02.539 --> 00:23:05.460 a few dollars to get enough money to meet the 00:23:05.460 --> 00:23:08.380 basic needs and then plan resistance write articles 00:23:08.380 --> 00:23:10.980 and go back to prison this is the way it was 00:23:10.980 --> 00:23:14.460 done at jonah house for a long period of time 00:23:15.150 --> 00:23:17.509 And it's because Phil believed that Christianity 00:23:17.509 --> 00:23:21.589 and revolution were synonymous. And he had this 00:23:21.589 --> 00:23:23.690 quote where he said, you have to be faithful 00:23:23.690 --> 00:23:26.470 enough to suffer and daring enough to serve. 00:23:27.329 --> 00:23:30.130 And to do that over the long haul is no easy 00:23:30.130 --> 00:23:33.430 task. But I think when you're embedded with others, 00:23:33.509 --> 00:23:36.349 when you're working with others, they can pick 00:23:36.349 --> 00:23:38.730 you up when you're down. They can help sustain 00:23:38.730 --> 00:23:43.069 you. And I think that is what. gave him the ability 00:23:43.069 --> 00:23:45.569 to do this for a long period of time certainly 00:23:45.569 --> 00:23:48.309 his forceful magnetic personality was a huge 00:23:48.309 --> 00:23:50.950 help and though i never met him as you saying 00:23:50.950 --> 00:23:53.569 you know he comes across as a truly powerful 00:23:53.569 --> 00:23:57.529 charismatic individual and so all these things 00:23:57.529 --> 00:24:00.630 are really important to look at and see how he 00:24:00.630 --> 00:24:03.349 and liz and others have you know you yourself 00:24:03.349 --> 00:24:08.539 have sustained this work over the long haul Well, 00:24:08.599 --> 00:24:10.859 Phil was adamant about that with me as a kid. 00:24:10.920 --> 00:24:12.180 Like, you're going to be doing this forever, 00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:14.799 John, as long as you're alive. You can't pick 00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:19.640 and choose your issue. And I watched how they 00:24:19.640 --> 00:24:24.559 never let up. And the risks continued. And every 00:24:24.559 --> 00:24:26.980 time they crossed a line, it meant more time 00:24:26.980 --> 00:24:29.539 in prison because they were repeated offenders, 00:24:29.980 --> 00:24:33.440 recidivists. Phil was like a really tough old 00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:38.049 ex -con. You know, I spent a year in prison with 00:24:38.049 --> 00:24:41.750 him, and, you know, he was happy as Larry is, 00:24:41.829 --> 00:24:44.430 a friend used to say, because he's just, oh, 00:24:44.529 --> 00:24:46.670 I'm back in my old element here now, you know. 00:24:46.990 --> 00:24:51.190 And he was not fazed by anything. I remember 00:24:51.190 --> 00:24:53.509 his stories about sharing the cell with Jimmy 00:24:53.509 --> 00:24:57.190 Hoffa in the late 60s, and Hoffa said to him, 00:24:57.190 --> 00:24:58.829 don't you worry about anything, Father Phil, 00:24:58.910 --> 00:25:01.930 I got your back. And Phil was like, I don't want 00:25:01.930 --> 00:25:05.359 you to have my back. Because the word was spread 00:25:05.359 --> 00:25:08.180 throughout the Lewisburg prison that anybody 00:25:08.180 --> 00:25:10.460 touches Father Phil, he'll have to deal with 00:25:10.460 --> 00:25:13.140 me. Anyway, the stories are all amazing. But 00:25:13.140 --> 00:25:15.420 I guess what I'm saying is when I was with him, 00:25:15.500 --> 00:25:18.200 I was always scared. Because you'd hear, like, 00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:20.619 how are you doing, Phil? Oh, we just got raided 00:25:20.619 --> 00:25:24.539 by the FBI last night. I'd be like, what? What 00:25:24.539 --> 00:25:26.759 do you mean, raided? Well, it's just like the 00:25:26.759 --> 00:25:29.859 ICE raids now. 30 agents would storm into Jonah 00:25:29.859 --> 00:25:32.319 House. They were always trying to get them on 00:25:32.319 --> 00:25:35.480 RICO charges and conspiracy to put Phil away 00:25:35.480 --> 00:25:39.240 for life. You see, because they were the ringleaders 00:25:39.240 --> 00:25:44.119 of all resistance in the country. So what's, 00:25:44.119 --> 00:25:49.019 again, so shocking is they keep searching for 00:25:49.019 --> 00:25:53.579 new ideas. And that led to the Plowshares Action 00:25:53.579 --> 00:25:57.440 of 1980. And then I think he did four actions, 00:25:57.519 --> 00:26:00.180 including mine, and got all those many years 00:26:00.180 --> 00:26:03.359 in prison. Talk about that and any writings you 00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:06.839 want to share about what happened there in King 00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:10.099 of Prussia, Pennsylvania. Sure. And just to speak 00:26:10.099 --> 00:26:13.799 to a moment about prison and Phil's prison witness, 00:26:13.880 --> 00:26:15.940 he has prison journals that were fascinating 00:26:15.940 --> 00:26:19.819 to read. He wrote one of them, All of Us Are 00:26:19.819 --> 00:26:22.480 Prisoners. And I think he believed that until 00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:26.299 we can liberate ourselves. He said, a prolonged 00:26:26.299 --> 00:26:29.319 fast in solitary confinement is a profoundly 00:26:29.319 --> 00:26:32.339 liberating experience because inevitably this 00:26:32.339 --> 00:26:34.859 question arises. What more can they do to you? 00:26:35.019 --> 00:26:38.599 And the answer is nothing. So I think he felt 00:26:38.599 --> 00:26:40.980 liberated in prison. It's not as if he wanted 00:26:40.980 --> 00:26:43.299 to be there, but he did feel it was part of his 00:26:43.299 --> 00:26:47.019 Christian duty to be there. Because another time 00:26:47.019 --> 00:26:50.339 when he was in prison, I saw that he wrote, obeying 00:26:50.339 --> 00:26:53.890 God's word can get you killed. And that's not 00:26:53.890 --> 00:26:56.829 something you typically hear on Sunday mornings 00:26:56.829 --> 00:26:59.509 in the pews, right? I mean, that's a pretty powerful 00:26:59.509 --> 00:27:02.769 statement. But Phil lived it and believed it 00:27:02.769 --> 00:27:06.410 and went to prison for it. And as you say, by 00:27:06.410 --> 00:27:09.250 1980, we get into this idea of the plowshares 00:27:09.250 --> 00:27:11.910 movement. You know, the Vietnam War is receding 00:27:11.910 --> 00:27:14.150 into history and the American public's becoming. 00:27:15.259 --> 00:27:18.740 you know, bored and preoccupied with other things, 00:27:18.839 --> 00:27:21.180 but nuclear weapons are still proliferating and 00:27:21.180 --> 00:27:24.680 Phil's very concerned with them. And so he and 00:27:24.680 --> 00:27:28.319 others decide to visit this Lockheed Martin nuclear 00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:31.720 facility in King of Prussia, Pennsylvania. And 00:27:31.720 --> 00:27:34.240 they're going to go in and do what they later 00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:37.339 referred to as a plowshares action, which was 00:27:37.339 --> 00:27:41.319 to go in. and pour blood on the blueprints of 00:27:41.319 --> 00:27:45.039 nuclear weapons and to take hammers and to symbolically 00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:48.519 hammer on the nose cones and the airplanes of 00:27:48.519 --> 00:27:52.359 nuclear weapons. So once again, they're arrested 00:27:52.359 --> 00:27:55.660 for this. It's a great symbol. It's so creative, 00:27:55.880 --> 00:27:58.380 right? Nuclear weapons, the hammering on the 00:27:58.380 --> 00:28:01.559 nose cones, the beating the swords into plowshares, 00:28:01.720 --> 00:28:04.559 the pouring of the blood on the blueprints. All 00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:08.299 this is very effective. in a political theater 00:28:08.299 --> 00:28:11.920 context and also to rouse the public to awareness 00:28:11.920 --> 00:28:14.339 of what's going on right in their own backyard 00:28:14.339 --> 00:28:17.420 you know i i live 45 minutes from king of prussia 00:28:17.420 --> 00:28:19.640 and there were many people at the time who didn't 00:28:19.640 --> 00:28:22.279 know that parts to nuclear weapons were being 00:28:22.279 --> 00:28:25.539 produced there so when phil does this again with 00:28:25.539 --> 00:28:28.059 dan and they get this lengthy prison sentence 00:28:28.059 --> 00:28:32.730 and a long calamitous trial everybody wakes up 00:28:32.730 --> 00:28:35.849 and starts doing other plowshares actions. The 00:28:35.849 --> 00:28:38.049 same thing that happened with the draft files, 00:28:38.410 --> 00:28:41.329 other people start doing with plowshares actions. 00:28:41.789 --> 00:28:44.690 And they continue to this day across the world. 00:28:44.769 --> 00:28:47.369 There have been hundreds of plowshares actions 00:28:47.369 --> 00:28:51.349 in countries all over the world. You, of course, 00:28:51.369 --> 00:28:54.109 participated in them. Many of the people I've 00:28:54.109 --> 00:28:57.089 met since researching this book participated 00:28:57.089 --> 00:29:01.119 in them. And that's what gives life to the movement. 00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:04.460 That's a legacy. Part of the legacy of Phil and 00:29:04.460 --> 00:29:07.359 Dan Berrigan is that they left these kinds of 00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:10.440 legacies behind of Plowshares movements and creative 00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:14.380 nonviolence. So again, you know, Phil goes to 00:29:14.380 --> 00:29:17.079 prison for the King of Prussia action. In total, 00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:20.299 he spends 11 years of his life in prison. That's 00:29:20.299 --> 00:29:23.500 a long time. That's not just a day or two or 00:29:23.500 --> 00:29:27.240 a weekend. 11 years of his life was spent in 00:29:27.240 --> 00:29:31.230 prison. That is truly understanding that obeying 00:29:31.230 --> 00:29:35.509 God's word might get you killed. And if I could 00:29:35.509 --> 00:29:37.809 just speak to a second to this question that 00:29:37.809 --> 00:29:40.630 Phil asked himself so repeatedly throughout his 00:29:40.630 --> 00:29:45.410 writings in his life. And the question is, what 00:29:45.410 --> 00:29:49.069 does Christ ask of me? And he seemed to be haunted 00:29:49.069 --> 00:29:52.950 by that question. And I think he repeatedly asked 00:29:52.950 --> 00:29:55.930 himself that question. He later wrote, the sinless 00:29:55.930 --> 00:29:59.630 one continues to haunt me. And so I think by 00:29:59.630 --> 00:30:01.730 asking that question again and again of himself, 00:30:01.930 --> 00:30:04.849 he was able to do these kinds of actions. And 00:30:04.849 --> 00:30:08.049 even into his later years, continue to go to 00:30:08.049 --> 00:30:10.289 prison. I mean, he was released from prison. 00:30:10.369 --> 00:30:12.250 What was it? Just a few months before he passed 00:30:12.250 --> 00:30:18.730 away. Yeah. Yeah. It's just such a powerful witness 00:30:18.730 --> 00:30:22.089 he gave. And I was there with him literally in 00:30:22.089 --> 00:30:24.970 the cell. And I would still be in awe because 00:30:24.970 --> 00:30:30.160 he was just. like the Mount Rushmore of nonviolent 00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:33.200 resistance. You know, you talk about obeying 00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:39.259 God's Word. It's, you know, we have such a crazy 00:30:39.259 --> 00:30:43.359 culture and crazy Christian nationalism and fundamentalism, 00:30:43.380 --> 00:30:46.980 and everybody's obsessed with the Bible. Actually, 00:30:47.500 --> 00:30:50.000 Phil and Dan read the Bible and knew it better 00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:52.759 than anybody else I've ever met. And when I've 00:30:52.759 --> 00:30:54.660 talked with their biographers, I've tried to 00:30:54.660 --> 00:30:57.480 say, look, you're not quite getting it. These 00:30:57.480 --> 00:31:00.960 people are biblical people. When I was with them, 00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:03.180 it was like being with St. Paul and St. Peter. 00:31:03.779 --> 00:31:07.799 Nobody ever wrote about that. But all they did 00:31:07.799 --> 00:31:11.420 was wrestle with sentences from the Gospels. 00:31:11.619 --> 00:31:15.460 So that when you say, you know, he's coming upon... 00:31:15.799 --> 00:31:18.799 Isaiah chapter 2, they shall beat swords into 00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:21.279 plowshares and study war no more. Phil's going, 00:31:21.420 --> 00:31:25.079 okay, let's do it. You know, unlike anybody else 00:31:25.079 --> 00:31:28.299 in 2 ,000, 3 ,000 years, they were the first 00:31:28.299 --> 00:31:30.220 people to actually say that's what we're going 00:31:30.220 --> 00:31:33.740 to do. What's also amazing, Brad, you know, in 00:31:33.740 --> 00:31:38.019 terms of your title, Risk, they didn't know what 00:31:38.019 --> 00:31:41.460 was going to happen. You know, no one did anything 00:31:41.460 --> 00:31:43.980 like this. So they drive the car that morning. 00:31:44.779 --> 00:31:47.380 And they drive right into the GE plant and the 00:31:47.380 --> 00:31:50.099 doors are open and they park the car. It's eight 00:31:50.099 --> 00:31:52.579 o 'clock. The workers are going in. There's no 00:31:52.579 --> 00:31:55.720 security. So they just line up like they're workers 00:31:55.720 --> 00:31:58.079 and they march in and they don't know what they're 00:31:58.079 --> 00:32:00.700 doing. And they go inside and they're down a 00:32:00.700 --> 00:32:03.119 long hallway and they turn right, apparently. 00:32:04.140 --> 00:32:07.640 And they open up a room and there are all these 00:32:07.640 --> 00:32:10.500 nuclear nose cones lying around and literally 00:32:10.500 --> 00:32:13.269 blueprints. And they thought. So the judge is 00:32:13.269 --> 00:32:15.789 yelling at them, how did you get in? Who led 00:32:15.789 --> 00:32:19.589 you? And Dan's going, oh, the Holy Spirit. Is 00:32:19.589 --> 00:32:25.410 there a problem here, Your Honor? So risk the 00:32:25.410 --> 00:32:28.490 Word of God and just following Jesus, as you 00:32:28.490 --> 00:32:33.569 say. Brad, because our time is coming to an end, 00:32:33.690 --> 00:32:37.720 here we are. All these years later after Phil 00:32:37.720 --> 00:32:40.680 and the era of Trump, we're closer to nuclear 00:32:40.680 --> 00:32:45.880 war than ever. We're in the full unleashing of 00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:48.660 catastrophic climate change. But all these other 00:32:48.660 --> 00:32:53.700 very horrific wars, the killings in Gaza, Ukraine, 00:32:54.160 --> 00:32:58.380 Sudan, more money spent now on nuclear weapons 00:32:58.380 --> 00:33:01.819 than ever before in history. And Obama and Trump 00:33:01.819 --> 00:33:06.400 and Biden have... pledged with the complete support 00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:08.759 of the U .S. Congress over a trillion dollars 00:33:08.759 --> 00:33:11.740 to upgrade the nuclear industry. This is way 00:33:11.740 --> 00:33:15.920 beyond Phil's imagination. He couldn't even imagine 00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:19.680 that that was possible. And all that's normal 00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:21.480 now. You don't even hear anybody talking about 00:33:21.480 --> 00:33:24.720 it. And yet you spent this time in the pandemic 00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:28.460 going through the papers of this great Christian 00:33:28.460 --> 00:33:31.180 who I hope will live on like Frederick Douglass 00:33:31.180 --> 00:33:34.829 and William Lloyd Garrison. the great abolitionists, 00:33:34.829 --> 00:33:38.049 you know, that will look back and realize what 00:33:38.049 --> 00:33:42.309 a gift he was and a prophet. What have you taken 00:33:42.309 --> 00:33:47.630 from the life and writings of Phil for your own 00:33:47.630 --> 00:33:51.250 journey as a Christian and a peacemaker? And 00:33:51.250 --> 00:33:53.730 what would you recommend for all of us, like 00:33:53.730 --> 00:33:57.390 some basic lessons that you're gleaning from 00:33:57.390 --> 00:34:01.529 the life and witness of Philip Berrigan? Well, 00:34:01.549 --> 00:34:03.369 there was no better way to spend the pandemic 00:34:03.369 --> 00:34:06.269 than immersing myself in the life of Philip Berrigan. 00:34:06.329 --> 00:34:09.909 I can say that clearly and authoritatively. It 00:34:09.909 --> 00:34:12.829 was a wonderful journey, and I'm so glad that 00:34:12.829 --> 00:34:16.110 I took it and that I came to know Phil through 00:34:16.110 --> 00:34:20.289 his writings and through his witness. And the 00:34:20.289 --> 00:34:23.210 advice I would give, what I learned for myself, 00:34:23.349 --> 00:34:26.909 and as I was editing this book and compiling 00:34:26.909 --> 00:34:30.010 the writings and editing them, I had to dictate 00:34:30.010 --> 00:34:33.610 Phil's writings into my laptop to get them into 00:34:33.610 --> 00:34:35.570 a document that I could then manipulate. And 00:34:35.570 --> 00:34:38.570 so I had hundreds of pages of documents that 00:34:38.570 --> 00:34:40.590 I had photographed, which I read aloud into my 00:34:40.590 --> 00:34:44.349 laptop. And by reading Phil's words aloud gave 00:34:44.349 --> 00:34:47.489 me a kind of ownership in them that made me question 00:34:47.489 --> 00:34:50.969 myself and ask myself, am I up to that task? 00:34:51.230 --> 00:34:54.369 Could I do that? Do I believe that to that degree? 00:34:54.730 --> 00:34:57.590 And I think if people read these words out loud. 00:34:58.039 --> 00:35:00.420 they might have the same kind of effect and it 00:35:00.420 --> 00:35:04.179 could energize them. But I can emphasize it's 00:35:04.179 --> 00:35:07.980 worth the journey. It's worth the journey, the 00:35:07.980 --> 00:35:10.440 one of resistance of going into the breach with 00:35:10.440 --> 00:35:13.420 the victims, because at the end, as Phil said, 00:35:13.639 --> 00:35:16.260 there is the chance of liberation for yourself, 00:35:16.539 --> 00:35:19.820 for your soul, and certainly for the victims 00:35:19.820 --> 00:35:23.300 in the breach. So take that chance, take that 00:35:23.300 --> 00:35:26.159 risk, go into the breach, follow the journey. 00:35:27.369 --> 00:35:30.250 Thank you, Brad. I loved how you began in the 00:35:30.250 --> 00:35:34.550 book and you brought it up with that challenge 00:35:34.550 --> 00:35:37.670 that he gave at some retreat in the late 50s 00:35:37.670 --> 00:35:40.730 that you found. And I concluded it in my afterward 00:35:40.730 --> 00:35:43.750 in your book, brought it back. And maybe we could 00:35:43.750 --> 00:35:46.369 just end on that question for all of us. Phil 00:35:46.369 --> 00:35:49.230 was saying to these young people, what does Christ 00:35:49.230 --> 00:35:52.760 ask of you? What does he ask of us today? We 00:35:52.760 --> 00:35:55.260 could rephrase that, you know, here in this terrible 00:35:55.260 --> 00:35:57.460 moment we're all facing. What does the nonviolent 00:35:57.460 --> 00:36:03.420 Jesus call us to do? What have we, you know, 00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:06.519 St. Ignatius put it this way, or I'll paraphrase. 00:36:07.019 --> 00:36:09.880 What have we done for the nonviolent Jesus? What 00:36:09.880 --> 00:36:12.760 are we doing for the nonviolent Jesus? And what 00:36:12.760 --> 00:36:15.619 are we going to do with the time left we have 00:36:15.619 --> 00:36:19.289 on earth? to follow the nonviolent Jesus and 00:36:19.289 --> 00:36:22.949 welcomes God's reign of peace. You've helped 00:36:22.949 --> 00:36:26.489 us all, I think, by reclaiming Phil's legacy. 00:36:27.010 --> 00:36:29.989 So thank you so much for putting that book together. 00:36:30.309 --> 00:36:32.429 And for all those who are listening, I really 00:36:32.429 --> 00:36:35.429 urge you to get the book. It's called The Ministry 00:36:35.429 --> 00:36:38.050 of Risk, Writings on Peace and Nonviolence, Philip 00:36:38.050 --> 00:36:41.269 Berrigan, edited by Brad Wolf. You could get 00:36:41.269 --> 00:36:43.650 it through Fordham University Press or any of 00:36:43.650 --> 00:36:46.250 your local bookstore and all the other writings 00:36:46.250 --> 00:36:50.150 of Dan Berrigan and the Berrigans buying about 00:36:50.150 --> 00:36:53.369 them. So, Brad, thank you so much for being with 00:36:53.369 --> 00:36:55.409 me today. And thank you, friends, for listening. 00:36:56.079 --> 00:36:58.340 to this episode of the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. 00:36:58.539 --> 00:37:01.579 You can hear more and find other upcoming Zoom 00:37:01.579 --> 00:37:05.980 programs at BeatitudesCenter .org. Please consider 00:37:05.980 --> 00:37:08.480 offering a donation to support this free work, 00:37:08.539 --> 00:37:11.340 and if you can, please leave some positive feedback 00:37:11.340 --> 00:37:15.280 or review at NCR or Apple or Spotify or whatever 00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:18.099 platform you use. Most of all, please tell your 00:37:18.099 --> 00:37:20.840 friends and colleagues about the Nonviolent Jesus 00:37:20.840 --> 00:37:24.119 Podcast so that it can... spread far and wide. 00:37:24.380 --> 00:37:27.840 May the God of peace bless us all. Keep on following 00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:30.239 the nonviolent Jesus. See you next time.