WEBVTT 00:00:17.129 --> 00:00:20.129 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:20.129 --> 00:00:22.730 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:22.730 --> 00:00:26.089 with my friend Terry Rinn. This is a project 00:00:26.089 --> 00:00:29.609 of BeatitudeCenter .org, where you can find many 00:00:29.609 --> 00:00:32.990 other podcasts and regular Zoom programs on the 00:00:32.990 --> 00:00:36.390 nonviolence of Jesus and practicing nonviolence 00:00:36.390 --> 00:00:39.350 and working for a more just, more nonviolent 00:00:39.350 --> 00:00:42.700 world. So I like to begin with a little prayer 00:00:42.700 --> 00:00:45.299 as usual. So I just invite you wherever you are 00:00:45.299 --> 00:00:49.899 to take a deep breath and just relax. And let's 00:00:49.899 --> 00:00:52.939 just all recenter ourselves and invite you to 00:00:52.939 --> 00:00:55.840 enter into the presence of the God of peace who 00:00:55.840 --> 00:00:59.340 loves you infinitely, personally, and everyone. 00:01:00.060 --> 00:01:02.979 And let's welcome the risen nonviolent Jesus 00:01:02.979 --> 00:01:06.780 here with us and ask for whatever grace we need 00:01:06.780 --> 00:01:09.180 to follow the nonviolent Jesus more faithfully 00:01:09.180 --> 00:01:18.439 and do God's will. God of peace, thank you for 00:01:18.439 --> 00:01:21.040 all the blessings of life and love and peace 00:01:21.040 --> 00:01:23.879 that you give us. Be with us now as we reflect 00:01:23.879 --> 00:01:26.879 together on your call to follow the nonviolent 00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:30.340 Jesus and work for a more nonviolent, more just, 00:01:30.459 --> 00:01:34.680 more peaceful world. Bless us, inspire us, disarm 00:01:34.680 --> 00:01:37.859 us, strengthen us, and send us out to do your 00:01:37.859 --> 00:01:41.540 will, to do our part to help end poverty, racism, 00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:45.950 greed. injustice, war, nuclear weapons, and environmental 00:01:45.950 --> 00:01:48.969 destruction, that we might be your holy beatitude 00:01:48.969 --> 00:01:52.689 people, your holy peacemakers, and welcome your 00:01:52.689 --> 00:01:56.629 reign of universal love, nonviolence, justice, 00:01:56.909 --> 00:02:01.129 and peace on earth. In Jesus' name, amen. Well, 00:02:01.209 --> 00:02:04.969 it's a pleasure to welcome my friend. Terry Rinn 00:02:04.969 --> 00:02:07.450 to the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. Terry is the 00:02:07.450 --> 00:02:10.969 author of two great books from Orbis. One is 00:02:10.969 --> 00:02:14.250 called Jesus Christ Peacemaker, and the other 00:02:14.250 --> 00:02:17.389 is called Gandhi and Jesus, which I hope everyone 00:02:17.389 --> 00:02:21.169 will read and get. Terry's a former priest from 00:02:21.169 --> 00:02:24.310 Chicago who then became a hospital administrator, 00:02:24.449 --> 00:02:28.770 and then from 1983 to 2003, he was president 00:02:28.770 --> 00:02:31.969 of Rinn Marketing Consulting Services for over... 00:02:32.360 --> 00:02:38.860 400 hospitals in 48 states over 20 years. After 00:02:38.860 --> 00:02:43.419 that, in 2006, he received his doctorate in theology 00:02:43.419 --> 00:02:47.080 from Marquette University. And then in 2008, 00:02:47.599 --> 00:02:51.360 with his wife Sally, he co -founded the Center 00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:54.180 for Peacemaking at Marquette University, which 00:02:54.180 --> 00:02:57.460 is an amazing project, which has gone on to make 00:02:57.460 --> 00:03:00.780 a huge difference in the Milwaukee schools teaching 00:03:00.780 --> 00:03:03.879 nonviolence. a nonviolent conflict resolution. 00:03:04.340 --> 00:03:07.259 For years, Terry has taught the Introduction 00:03:07.259 --> 00:03:09.319 to Peace Studies course at Marquette University. 00:03:09.900 --> 00:03:13.780 And the day I decided to launch this whole project, 00:03:13.900 --> 00:03:16.800 the Beatitudes Center, I asked Terry to be the 00:03:16.800 --> 00:03:19.620 chair of the board, and he said yes, and he gave 00:03:19.620 --> 00:03:23.379 me the first seed money to start all this work. 00:03:24.280 --> 00:03:27.500 Actually, besides Jesus, this podcast would not 00:03:27.500 --> 00:03:31.099 exist without Terry. You and Jesus, Terry. So, 00:03:31.159 --> 00:03:34.879 Terry Wynn, welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. 00:03:36.039 --> 00:03:40.580 John, Jesus is the CEO that you've been doing 00:03:40.580 --> 00:03:44.490 a great job. Thank you. What Terry means is if 00:03:44.490 --> 00:03:46.930 you look on the BeatitudesCenter .org website 00:03:46.930 --> 00:03:52.430 and you go to staff, it has CEO, Jesus of Nazareth, 00:03:52.430 --> 00:03:56.509 and then director, me, and then the board. And 00:03:56.509 --> 00:04:02.270 Jesus is doing a great job. So you and I, we've 00:04:02.270 --> 00:04:05.389 been studying Jesus and Gandhi and nonviolence, 00:04:05.469 --> 00:04:10.810 and I'm always interested that Gandhi was such 00:04:10.810 --> 00:04:13.979 a student of the Sermon on the Mount. and continue 00:04:13.979 --> 00:04:16.980 to read it regularly throughout his life and 00:04:16.980 --> 00:04:20.379 use it as a guide for everything he did and all 00:04:20.379 --> 00:04:28.240 that he discerned. In your book, then, one phrase 00:04:28.240 --> 00:04:32.199 you use to describe Jesus in light of Gandhi's 00:04:32.199 --> 00:04:35.819 understanding of Jesus's nonviolence. is that 00:04:35.819 --> 00:04:39.319 Jesus is the paragon of nonviolence. So I want 00:04:39.319 --> 00:04:42.319 you to just tell me your journey, how you came 00:04:42.319 --> 00:04:45.480 to that conclusion, and what it means for you 00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:48.720 in your own words for our listeners. Tell us 00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:51.980 about the nonviolent Jesus. I'd be delighted. 00:04:53.060 --> 00:05:00.720 Many years ago, 1968, I hope years at it, I read 00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:05.550 a book, The Nonviolent Cross. by James Douglas. 00:05:06.069 --> 00:05:09.410 I was a young priest. I was hearing confessions 00:05:09.410 --> 00:05:13.629 and between confessions, I got to read this book 00:05:13.629 --> 00:05:19.589 and it knocked me out. Especially the quote that 00:05:19.589 --> 00:05:24.069 he had from Webb Miller, who was a reporter for 00:05:24.069 --> 00:05:28.589 the Chicago Tribune. In 1930, he was writing 00:05:28.589 --> 00:05:33.269 on Gandhi's salt marsh. Many of you know the 00:05:33.269 --> 00:05:37.509 significance of Gandhi's salt march. The Brits 00:05:37.509 --> 00:05:41.269 at the time laughed at him. Oh, you're going 00:05:41.269 --> 00:05:44.829 to walk 200 miles from your home. Then you're 00:05:44.829 --> 00:05:47.930 going to put your hand in the ocean and pick 00:05:47.930 --> 00:05:52.389 up a handful of salt sludge. Oh, we're so afraid. 00:05:52.949 --> 00:05:58.129 But Gandhi knew what he was doing. Salt was a 00:05:58.129 --> 00:06:02.850 monopoly of the Brits. They sold it to people. 00:06:02.889 --> 00:06:09.629 They put a tax on it. Salt in a country as hot 00:06:09.629 --> 00:06:14.269 as India is something people can't do without. 00:06:14.790 --> 00:06:19.129 So it was a clear symbol to people across the 00:06:19.129 --> 00:06:24.189 country what Gandhi was up to, violating their 00:06:24.189 --> 00:06:29.769 rules on salt. So Webb Miller's description. 00:06:30.459 --> 00:06:35.720 had the phalanx of Gandhi supporters coming up 00:06:35.720 --> 00:06:42.439 to the huge containers of salt. And as they came 00:06:42.439 --> 00:06:47.519 up to locked doors, they were greeted by a case 00:06:47.519 --> 00:06:51.680 in police with steel -tipped truncheons. And 00:06:51.680 --> 00:06:55.759 one after another, they were knocked down, broken 00:06:55.759 --> 00:07:01.649 skulls, broken shoulders. It went on for hours, 00:07:01.829 --> 00:07:09.269 and I was amazed by the nonviolence of these 00:07:09.269 --> 00:07:14.910 people. God is nonviolence, I too learned. He 00:07:14.910 --> 00:07:20.410 got quite a bit of it from Jesus' Sermon on the 00:07:20.410 --> 00:07:27.430 Mount. So that day, I got two heroes. That's 00:07:27.430 --> 00:07:32.660 how it started. Forty years later, I was able 00:07:32.660 --> 00:07:38.060 to write a book on Gandhi and Jesus. Tell us 00:07:38.060 --> 00:07:40.720 the nutshell of your thesis of the Gandhi and 00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:49.540 Jesus book. Well, I think the main theme of Jesus, 00:07:49.660 --> 00:07:55.139 if I pause and ask you and your listeners to 00:07:55.139 --> 00:07:58.180 think about the Apostles' Creed for a minute. 00:07:59.790 --> 00:08:04.129 Jesus, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under 00:08:04.129 --> 00:08:09.009 Pontius Pilate, died, was crucified. Wait a minute. 00:08:09.709 --> 00:08:14.750 Born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius 00:08:14.750 --> 00:08:21.910 Pilate. Is there something missing? Yes, his 00:08:21.910 --> 00:08:27.850 life. And so it's Jesus' life. John, you hit 00:08:27.850 --> 00:08:32.519 a reason. Brilliant. Podcast featuring Walter 00:08:32.519 --> 00:08:35.860 Wink's interpretation of the Sermon on the Mount. 00:08:36.799 --> 00:08:41.139 That's Jesus' teaching, but I like to focus even 00:08:41.139 --> 00:08:45.759 more so on his life. And it seems to me Jesus 00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:50.820 devoted his life to focusing on the structures 00:08:50.820 --> 00:08:53.840 of violence, not so much the people, the structures. 00:08:54.830 --> 00:08:58.169 of violence that led to so much oppression and 00:08:58.169 --> 00:09:07.350 pain for people through the Sabbath and the temple 00:09:07.350 --> 00:09:14.149 and the Torah. Start with Jesus, Mark chapter 00:09:14.149 --> 00:09:18.509 3, comes into his synagogue. There's a man with 00:09:18.509 --> 00:09:22.320 a withered arm. And a group of Pharisees who 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:26.139 are there, Mark writes to catch him. They're 00:09:26.139 --> 00:09:30.379 playing gotcha. So Jesus paused and he said, 00:09:30.820 --> 00:09:35.059 what is the Sabbath? Our wonderful tradition 00:09:35.059 --> 00:09:43.100 of rest and re -confirmation. Does it stand for 00:09:43.100 --> 00:09:49.309 good or ill? And no one answered. Mark wrote, 00:09:49.549 --> 00:09:54.610 Jesus was disappointed and angry. And he called 00:09:54.610 --> 00:09:57.809 the young man up to the center. He said, stretch 00:09:57.809 --> 00:10:03.389 out your arms. And he healed him. And Mark's 00:10:03.389 --> 00:10:07.909 next phrase is what's so important. The Pharisees 00:10:07.909 --> 00:10:11.110 went out and took counsel with the Herodians 00:10:11.110 --> 00:10:17.870 on how to kill him. He's a marked man, beginning. 00:10:18.409 --> 00:10:25.269 of his public life. The Torah, he saw it as being 00:10:25.269 --> 00:10:31.750 so twisted. At that time, the Pharisees wanted 00:10:31.750 --> 00:10:35.990 the purity codes that applied to the priests 00:10:35.990 --> 00:10:40.110 to apply to everyone. So there were a hundred, 00:10:40.190 --> 00:10:45.909 at least, rules about eating. More importantly, 00:10:46.190 --> 00:10:50.610 they could not. Come in contact with people who 00:10:50.610 --> 00:10:55.289 are already unclean, like shepherds who were 00:10:55.289 --> 00:11:00.789 with animals all the time or lepers. Worst of 00:11:00.789 --> 00:11:06.809 all were the tax collectors for the Romans. And 00:11:06.809 --> 00:11:11.230 so you hear the Pharisees saying to the disciples, 00:11:11.470 --> 00:11:18.480 what is Jesus doing? How does Jesus oppose? This 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:22.600 twisted version of their wonderful covenant with 00:11:22.600 --> 00:11:29.840 Yahweh. How he's eating with tax collectors. 00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:34.600 Exactly, the disciples said. He believes in a 00:11:34.600 --> 00:11:37.179 God. It's almost like your prayer that you started 00:11:37.179 --> 00:11:42.039 the podcast with, John. All embracing, loving 00:11:42.039 --> 00:11:46.659 them all. My favorite story in the New Testament. 00:11:47.360 --> 00:11:51.419 is the story of Zacchaeus. Jesus coming down 00:11:51.419 --> 00:11:55.860 to Jericho, the chief collector, tax collector 00:11:55.860 --> 00:12:00.360 for Jericho is Zacchaeus. He climbs up a tree, 00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:03.740 he's short, a sycamore, he's trying to catch 00:12:03.740 --> 00:12:07.940 sight of Jesus. Jesus sees him and says, hurry, 00:12:08.200 --> 00:12:13.240 Zacchaeus, come down. I want to spend the night 00:12:13.240 --> 00:12:19.009 in your house, Zacchaeus. is done, I will give 00:12:19.009 --> 00:12:23.629 half of what I own to the poor. I will give four 00:12:23.629 --> 00:12:31.730 times what I have taken from people. Jesus is 00:12:31.730 --> 00:12:37.830 confronting the structures of violence and oppression. 00:12:38.409 --> 00:12:42.389 And the third, of course, he turns and sets his 00:12:42.389 --> 00:12:47.120 face to Jerusalem. And he goes into the temple 00:12:47.120 --> 00:12:52.019 and the temple. He finds the court of the Gentiles 00:12:52.019 --> 00:12:57.100 filled with animals. And he sends them all out 00:12:57.100 --> 00:13:01.720 and the people changing money. And he said loudly, 00:13:02.620 --> 00:13:06.940 my father's house is meant to be a house for 00:13:06.940 --> 00:13:11.139 all people. Gentiles couldn't even enter the 00:13:11.139 --> 00:13:17.480 temple. And you made it into a den. Well, slightly 00:13:17.480 --> 00:13:23.159 thereafter, we read about Caiaphas, the head 00:13:23.159 --> 00:13:28.460 high priest, talking about Jesus. He says he's 00:13:28.460 --> 00:13:32.759 getting the whole world to follow him. They're 00:13:32.759 --> 00:13:38.159 getting uproarious, and that Rome will come and 00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:42.500 destroy what we have built, our source of our... 00:13:42.539 --> 00:13:48.080 taxes to them and our source of revenue for ourselves. 00:13:49.259 --> 00:13:58.940 Why did Jesus die? Because he was killed. Why 00:13:58.940 --> 00:14:04.980 was he killed? Because he stood up and offended 00:14:04.980 --> 00:14:11.779 the powers that be. Jesus' life. It's amazing. 00:14:13.379 --> 00:14:16.620 Amen. It's totally amazing. Now, in your book 00:14:16.620 --> 00:14:20.580 on Jesus, you call the book Jesus Christ Peacemaker, 00:14:20.740 --> 00:14:23.659 which is a beautiful title, Christ the Great 00:14:23.659 --> 00:14:27.500 Peacemaker, trying to make peace between every 00:14:27.500 --> 00:14:30.419 human being, the whole human race, and God and 00:14:30.419 --> 00:14:36.379 creation. Tell me about that phrase in particular, 00:14:36.580 --> 00:14:40.840 because I always use the word nonviolence. How 00:14:40.840 --> 00:14:44.519 is Jesus a peacemaker? What is a peacemaker in 00:14:44.519 --> 00:14:47.019 your opinion? How do we live out that beatitude? 00:14:47.100 --> 00:14:50.639 Blessed are the peacemakers. Well, especially 00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:55.620 by standing up and resisting structures of violence 00:14:55.620 --> 00:15:02.580 in our own culture, like racism and militarism 00:15:02.580 --> 00:15:06.539 and how it looks like ISIS with their attendance. 00:15:07.419 --> 00:15:11.279 Places for prisoners. I think that's the most. 00:15:11.460 --> 00:15:15.740 The other three parts of being a peacemaker are 00:15:15.740 --> 00:15:20.500 remove the suffering from people. Jesus did that. 00:15:20.759 --> 00:15:25.940 Two, turn enemies into friends. John 12 says 00:15:25.940 --> 00:15:31.659 a lot of the Pharisees had become advocates for 00:15:31.659 --> 00:15:37.879 Jesus. His great halachic disputation. Just standing 00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:45.220 up for his father as he understood him. And thirdly, 00:15:45.220 --> 00:15:49.200 changing the culture's attitude towards violence. 00:15:49.299 --> 00:15:53.960 The only group that didn't join the revolution 00:15:53.960 --> 00:15:58.919 against Rome, the Christians. They went to Pella 00:15:58.919 --> 00:16:04.159 across the river. Jesus changed people's attitudes 00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:08.679 towards violence. That's great. And that's your 00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:12.000 take on Jesus as a peacemaker and what it means 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:14.000 for us as peacemakers. I wrote it down. You're 00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:17.659 saying, yes, helping to end suffering. Yes, turning 00:16:17.659 --> 00:16:20.980 enemies to friends. Yes, changing the cultures, 00:16:20.980 --> 00:16:23.559 the world's attitude toward violence. But you 00:16:23.559 --> 00:16:26.759 began by saying, well, he stood up and he spoke 00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:30.419 out and he resisted. And I agree with you because, 00:16:30.559 --> 00:16:33.519 I mean, we do it in a spirit of nonviolence and 00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:38.149 unconditional love. Few people want to stand 00:16:38.149 --> 00:16:41.909 up and speak out and say, hey, no nuclear weapons, 00:16:42.090 --> 00:16:46.929 no racism, no war in Gaza, no use of fossil fuels, 00:16:47.029 --> 00:16:51.809 because it means you're rocking the boat. It's 00:16:51.809 --> 00:16:53.710 not going to be well received in this culture. 00:16:54.230 --> 00:16:57.690 And then, you know, great people like Tutu, he 00:16:57.690 --> 00:17:02.629 said, you're silence in the face of this structured 00:17:02.629 --> 00:17:07.680 evil. is actually equal to the evil, if not greater. 00:17:07.900 --> 00:17:13.500 It means complicity. Exactly. Sure. And Jesus 00:17:13.500 --> 00:17:17.940 spoke up all the time, Terry. Right. You know? 00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:21.240 He sure did. And he was fearless. And you get 00:17:21.240 --> 00:17:23.299 the impression, I mean, he must have been as 00:17:23.299 --> 00:17:29.000 gentle as Martin King and Mohandas Gandhi. But 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:36.210 he was always talking. Action. is removed, this 00:17:36.210 --> 00:17:39.869 is Joe Walter Wink quote, the keystone of the 00:17:39.869 --> 00:17:44.430 arch of Christianity collapsed into a religion 00:17:44.430 --> 00:17:50.829 of personal salvation. Yeah, that isn't Jesus' 00:17:51.289 --> 00:17:56.309 message. Well, you sum up his message then. I 00:17:56.309 --> 00:17:58.589 think it might be the kingdom of God is at hand. 00:17:58.690 --> 00:18:01.190 Let's get ready, get with the program. How would 00:18:01.190 --> 00:18:04.400 you put it? Sure. The whole first part of the 00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:08.500 book is on what the kingdom of God, the kingdom 00:18:08.500 --> 00:18:13.900 of heaven meant, or the kingdom is. Martin Luther 00:18:13.900 --> 00:18:18.579 King later called it. What is your thinking of 00:18:18.579 --> 00:18:21.099 the kingdom of God these days? I know it's not 00:18:21.099 --> 00:18:23.259 that crazy that I'm asking you that question, 00:18:23.339 --> 00:18:26.480 but again, nobody talks about the kingdom of 00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:28.759 God, but you could argue from the synoptics that's 00:18:28.759 --> 00:18:32.099 the thing Jesus talked about the most. He didn't 00:18:32.099 --> 00:18:34.539 talk about himself, really. He's talking about 00:18:34.539 --> 00:18:42.140 the kingdom of God. Well, he was talking about 00:18:42.140 --> 00:18:46.339 the kingdom of God, but it was God as he understood 00:18:46.339 --> 00:18:50.539 it. It was the continuation of the covenant, 00:18:50.539 --> 00:18:55.180 the covenant which Yahweh proved himself to be 00:18:55.180 --> 00:19:00.960 always with his people. So Jesus proclaimed it. 00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:05.440 Abba, my Father, He showed it again and again. 00:19:06.279 --> 00:19:10.440 The kingdom is here. It's a combination of a 00:19:10.440 --> 00:19:17.900 place and a force. It's here. It's with me. It's 00:19:17.900 --> 00:19:24.640 with the people who follow me. You know, my understanding 00:19:24.640 --> 00:19:27.839 has evolved over the decades, Terry, and I wonder 00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:32.269 what you think about it. So I used to hear in 00:19:32.269 --> 00:19:33.990 the Jesuits, a lot of people talking about, we're 00:19:33.990 --> 00:19:36.410 going out and we're building the kingdom of God. 00:19:36.589 --> 00:19:39.869 Well, I just thought that was wrong from day 00:19:39.869 --> 00:19:42.509 one because we're not building anything. And 00:19:42.509 --> 00:19:44.829 literally that meant buildings for many church 00:19:44.829 --> 00:19:47.529 people. But the kingdom of God already exists. 00:19:47.650 --> 00:19:50.089 It's a gift. We're just going to welcome it and 00:19:50.089 --> 00:19:55.180 proclaim it and try to embrace it. And so this 00:19:55.180 --> 00:19:58.480 realm of universal love and universal compassion, 00:19:58.819 --> 00:20:02.039 universal peace. Well, then, you know, I got 00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:05.220 looking at Dr. King saying, I have a dream, you 00:20:05.220 --> 00:20:08.960 know, of equal equality. Or the abolitionists, 00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:12.359 a new world is coming without slavery. Or the 00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:15.500 suffragists, hey, women are equal. And you could 00:20:15.500 --> 00:20:18.839 go through the list. So this is a translation 00:20:18.839 --> 00:20:22.680 I'm using, and you've done a lot more work on 00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:26.539 this. phrase the kingdom of God in me. But I've 00:20:26.539 --> 00:20:29.319 been saying over the last few years that the 00:20:29.319 --> 00:20:32.380 kingdom of God means a world without killing, 00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:37.920 guns, violence, war, racism, sexism, nuclear 00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:41.900 weapons, digging up fossil fuels, hurting animals 00:20:41.900 --> 00:20:46.720 or creation or one child. In other words, it's 00:20:46.720 --> 00:20:50.460 a negative way of approaching it because we're 00:20:50.460 --> 00:20:53.700 so numb. You know, Walgo isn't that nice and 00:20:53.700 --> 00:20:56.579 pious, but, you know. That's true, but I think 00:20:56.579 --> 00:21:01.359 still a commitment to nonviolence instead of 00:21:01.359 --> 00:21:05.980 violence is at the heart of it. I know I've learned 00:21:05.980 --> 00:21:11.039 a lot, I think, of the mass. When I grew up, 00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:14.900 as many of your listeners, the mass was considered 00:21:14.900 --> 00:21:18.660 a sacrifice. Now, isn't that weird in some way? 00:21:20.349 --> 00:21:26.490 But as a conventional understanding, Jesus endured 00:21:26.490 --> 00:21:32.309 harm and suffering for our sake, and the conversion 00:21:32.309 --> 00:21:36.829 of the bread and wine into his body and blood 00:21:36.829 --> 00:21:43.329 made us a part of that. But Vatican Council, 00:21:43.630 --> 00:21:50.339 altar turned around, and now it was. Form a community. 00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:55.920 Do this in memory of me at first. Do this. Take 00:21:55.920 --> 00:22:00.259 part in my sacrifice. Do this meant no. Form 00:22:00.259 --> 00:22:05.660 a community of people who can do that. But understanding 00:22:05.660 --> 00:22:10.980 Jesus' nonviolence changes it for me. Do this. 00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:19.759 My back stiffens. Do what? Act. as I actively 00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:25.259 stand up against the structures of violence, 00:22:25.400 --> 00:22:29.779 not violently. It's not a relationship that's 00:22:29.779 --> 00:22:33.980 vertical to God, not a relationship that's just 00:22:33.980 --> 00:22:37.480 horizontal to other people in the community. 00:22:37.700 --> 00:22:41.500 It's a relationship to the world. As you're saying, 00:22:41.779 --> 00:22:47.220 go out to the world and bring this message, which 00:22:47.220 --> 00:22:52.839 is... Surely needs the message of nonviolence. 00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:57.559 It works. You're so right to bring that up. And 00:22:57.559 --> 00:23:00.500 we can talk, as we both have done, about every 00:23:00.500 --> 00:23:04.339 aspect of the life and teachings of Jesus. I 00:23:04.339 --> 00:23:07.660 like the Eucharist to take it even, you know, 00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:11.019 on another angle from a perspective of nonviolence. 00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:15.250 My body broken for you. My blood shed for you. 00:23:15.329 --> 00:23:18.150 Do this. Enter the new covenant of nonviolence. 00:23:18.210 --> 00:23:21.609 As opposed to, he should have said, if he were 00:23:21.609 --> 00:23:24.849 a good Roman or American, I always say, go break 00:23:24.849 --> 00:23:30.390 their bodies for me. Go kill those people over 00:23:30.390 --> 00:23:34.869 there for me because I'm in charge. No. My body 00:23:34.869 --> 00:23:39.109 broken. My blood shed for you. Do this. And Dan 00:23:39.109 --> 00:23:42.579 Berrigan put it. We are called to accept Jesus' 00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:47.980 preference. This is intense, to accept suffering 00:23:47.980 --> 00:23:51.640 rather than inflict suffering, to undergo death, 00:23:51.960 --> 00:23:54.660 be willing to be killed rather than to kill. 00:23:54.960 --> 00:23:57.099 In other words, Terry, I hear you saying none 00:23:57.099 --> 00:23:59.799 of it makes sense without understanding nonviolence. 00:24:00.180 --> 00:24:04.160 I agree. It is in the heart of the gospel. Even 00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:08.059 though the word nonviolence is not used, we say 00:24:08.059 --> 00:24:12.119 love and resist. Does that express adequately 00:24:12.119 --> 00:24:15.859 what you mean by satyagraha? And he said, yeah, 00:24:16.039 --> 00:24:22.279 but it's in the context of conflict. Everybody 00:24:22.279 --> 00:24:26.980 misses that. That's what nonviolence adds to 00:24:26.980 --> 00:24:32.779 the idea of love, even in the midst. of conflict. 00:24:32.960 --> 00:24:36.920 Yeah, that's powerful. So you and I were in Rome 00:24:36.920 --> 00:24:40.859 in April 2016 with 80 other Catholic leaders 00:24:40.859 --> 00:24:44.799 from around the globe at the first ever Vatican 00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:48.279 conference on nonviolence, which I think now 00:24:48.279 --> 00:24:52.259 is a really historic landmark. And we had Marie 00:24:52.259 --> 00:24:56.119 Dennis on talking about that. And it led to Pope 00:24:56.119 --> 00:24:59.079 Francis writing the first statement on nonviolence 00:24:59.079 --> 00:25:01.579 in the history of the church, the January 1st, 00:25:01.579 --> 00:25:07.259 2017 World Day of Peace message. And I just want 00:25:07.259 --> 00:25:09.960 to invite you to say a word about that kind of 00:25:09.960 --> 00:25:13.099 a turning point moment when the Vatican... agreed 00:25:13.099 --> 00:25:16.180 and said, yeah, and issued a statement on nonviolence. 00:25:16.200 --> 00:25:20.019 And your hopes for Pope Leo and, dare I say, 00:25:20.059 --> 00:25:23.380 every priest, bishop, and ordinary Catholic in 00:25:23.380 --> 00:25:27.380 the country and the world regarding taking this 00:25:27.380 --> 00:25:30.000 message of the nonviolence of Jesus more seriously? 00:25:30.839 --> 00:25:36.200 Well, I think there is great hope. I have more 00:25:36.200 --> 00:25:39.160 hope in the Catholic Church becoming a peace 00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:43.200 church. That's the goodness. because of our leadership. 00:25:43.960 --> 00:25:48.119 Not just Francis, but Benedict and Paul said, 00:25:48.220 --> 00:25:52.160 I thought a war was coming. Instead, the people 00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:57.519 of East Europe rebelled non -violently. And but 00:25:57.519 --> 00:26:01.380 again, our good friend has been compiling statements 00:26:01.380 --> 00:26:06.779 from Leo. He's up to 50 pages. Maybe we're going 00:26:06.779 --> 00:26:11.190 to get an encyclopedia. I loved it. That last 00:26:11.190 --> 00:26:15.069 meeting in Rome, when Cardinal McElroy said in 00:26:15.069 --> 00:26:17.910 the back row, you were sitting there too. He 00:26:17.910 --> 00:26:21.849 listened for two days to people from all over 00:26:21.849 --> 00:26:25.490 the world expressing how they had embraced nonviolence 00:26:25.490 --> 00:26:31.029 and overcome violence from Sri Lanka to the South 00:26:31.029 --> 00:26:35.009 Sudan, etc. And he asked. Finally, he was quiet. 00:26:35.509 --> 00:26:39.079 He asked. If Pope Francis came into the room, 00:26:39.240 --> 00:26:42.680 what would you ask him for? And you remember 00:26:42.680 --> 00:26:47.400 what they all said. Give us an encyclical. And 00:26:47.400 --> 00:26:49.420 he's supposed to be waiting for the grassroots 00:26:49.420 --> 00:26:53.680 to come to him. And they said, we are the grassroots. 00:26:54.079 --> 00:27:00.140 Help us. Help us. Give us the leadership. You 00:27:00.140 --> 00:27:03.890 know, the leadership is there, but... Seminaries 00:27:03.890 --> 00:27:07.430 don't teach it. You never hear it from the pulpit. 00:27:07.509 --> 00:27:12.289 We have a long way to go. People better keep 00:27:12.289 --> 00:27:17.569 listening to your podcast and keep learning about 00:27:17.569 --> 00:27:23.789 Gandhi and the 80 years of fantastic results. 00:27:24.009 --> 00:27:29.940 Read the book by Maria Stephan, please. That 00:27:29.940 --> 00:27:34.480 balance is twice as effective as silence. We 00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:39.559 can get there. We will finally light the fire, 00:27:39.779 --> 00:27:44.180 I hope. I hope so, too. And I'm glad you encouraged 00:27:44.180 --> 00:27:50.119 people. I think similarly that all those who 00:27:50.119 --> 00:27:52.480 are staying in the church, in all the churches, 00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:56.789 have to get over our anger. and frustration and 00:27:56.789 --> 00:27:59.690 sadness and move into real love for our local 00:27:59.690 --> 00:28:02.970 church ministers and priests and bishops and 00:28:02.970 --> 00:28:06.759 go and meet them. Jesus is standing up. fearlessly 00:28:06.759 --> 00:28:08.759 speaking to the religious authorities of his 00:28:08.759 --> 00:28:11.420 time. And in one minute, the next thing they 00:28:11.420 --> 00:28:13.259 say, we go, how are we going to kill this guy? 00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:17.099 So this is the guy we follow. So I've tried to 00:28:17.099 --> 00:28:19.960 do that all my life. Even as a kid, nobody, you 00:28:19.960 --> 00:28:22.099 go up to a bishop and say, can I please talk 00:28:22.099 --> 00:28:24.119 to you about Jesus? What do you think about love 00:28:24.119 --> 00:28:28.180 your enemies? And no one is talking to them. 00:28:28.359 --> 00:28:32.839 But I can say as a priest that they will never 00:28:32.839 --> 00:28:36.500 have access. to the nonviolence of Jesus unless 00:28:36.500 --> 00:28:40.059 people go and talk to them and give them books. 00:28:40.180 --> 00:28:41.859 And that's what we tried to do with the Vatican. 00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:45.980 I, though, Terry, bless me, Father, for I have 00:28:45.980 --> 00:28:50.099 sinned. I wrote a letter to Pope Leo. I said, 00:28:50.140 --> 00:28:54.359 I want an encyclical on Jesus and nonviolence, 00:28:54.420 --> 00:28:56.859 but I'm growing so impatient. Now I want Vatican 00:28:56.859 --> 00:29:00.660 III, a whole new gathering of 10 ,000 bishops, 00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:05.180 all about Jesus. It's never happened before in 00:29:05.180 --> 00:29:08.059 the church that we just talked about him and 00:29:08.059 --> 00:29:10.480 his nonviolence. And what does that mean for 00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:13.420 us? I think that would be helpful. Not so much 00:29:13.420 --> 00:29:16.599 on the church. Well, let me ask to sum it up 00:29:16.599 --> 00:29:20.119 about your life work at Marquette and the impact 00:29:20.119 --> 00:29:22.259 of your Center for Peacemaking in Milwaukee. 00:29:22.599 --> 00:29:25.539 So here as a theologian, besides your work in 00:29:25.539 --> 00:29:27.980 the hospitals and all, but as a theologian, you've 00:29:27.980 --> 00:29:29.900 been writing and talking and involved with a 00:29:29.900 --> 00:29:32.859 lot of great peace groups and now the Catholic 00:29:32.859 --> 00:29:36.640 Nonviolence Initiative in Rome. But you really 00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:40.819 put a lot of time and energy into this, building 00:29:40.819 --> 00:29:45.059 this organization at Marquette. and then reaching 00:29:45.059 --> 00:29:48.420 out throughout the city of Milwaukee to teach 00:29:48.420 --> 00:29:50.859 nonviolent conflict resolution. And every time 00:29:50.859 --> 00:29:53.420 I hear you speak, I think it could be a model 00:29:53.420 --> 00:29:57.140 for the whole country. So tell people. Well, 00:29:57.240 --> 00:30:02.680 Peace Works has become one of the signature programs 00:30:02.680 --> 00:30:06.759 of this center. It was designed for Catholic 00:30:06.759 --> 00:30:12.670 schools. Public schools asked us to start teaching 00:30:12.670 --> 00:30:16.430 peace works in their schools and have developed 00:30:16.430 --> 00:30:21.269 into the Success Center. It's staffed by people 00:30:21.269 --> 00:30:24.869 who understand restorative justice practices. 00:30:25.250 --> 00:30:29.910 And for all the kids that get kicked out or are 00:30:29.910 --> 00:30:34.890 suspended, they spend nine weeks surrounded by 00:30:34.890 --> 00:30:41.150 love and mental health. and yoga and peace works, 00:30:41.390 --> 00:30:45.529 and they come out ready to come back to their 00:30:45.529 --> 00:30:51.289 schools. The Success Center is indeed a model 00:30:51.289 --> 00:30:56.210 for public schools all over the country. That's 00:30:56.210 --> 00:31:01.450 one signature program. I do love seeing what 00:31:01.450 --> 00:31:07.650 happens. Our dream was to have undergraduates. 00:31:08.269 --> 00:31:14.509 who are ready for learning, experience something 00:31:14.509 --> 00:31:20.430 different, and that's peace studies. So one example 00:31:20.430 --> 00:31:27.630 of that, Joro came to us from Ignatius, a Jesuit 00:31:27.630 --> 00:31:30.970 high school, and first year he majored in peace 00:31:30.970 --> 00:31:36.359 studies. I asked in the first class, I always 00:31:36.359 --> 00:31:40.359 ask people to be ready to tell me an experience 00:31:40.359 --> 00:31:44.940 that they've had when their power, their personal 00:31:44.940 --> 00:31:49.759 power, was active. Gerald stood up and he said, 00:31:49.960 --> 00:31:54.640 I was fortunate to arrange the world's largest 00:31:54.640 --> 00:31:58.680 gathering. It made the Guinness Book of World 00:31:58.680 --> 00:32:02.940 Records. I said, what was that, Gerald? And he 00:32:02.940 --> 00:32:07.369 said, the world's largest gathering of people 00:32:07.369 --> 00:32:14.789 with mismatched socks. Great Joro. Joro went 00:32:14.789 --> 00:32:18.869 on to finish his peace studies. He went to Harvard. 00:32:18.990 --> 00:32:23.329 He got his theology doctorate and is now teaching 00:32:23.329 --> 00:32:28.130 his studies. So if we can have the impact on 00:32:28.130 --> 00:32:31.609 one person who has that kind of sense of humor. 00:32:32.589 --> 00:32:36.769 We've got it made. That's a happy note to end 00:32:36.769 --> 00:32:40.109 our time together. And I thank you for the story 00:32:40.109 --> 00:32:43.210 about the young man who, with all that energy, 00:32:43.309 --> 00:32:46.670 gathered people, and now he's at Harvard teaching 00:32:46.670 --> 00:32:53.250 peace. Let's hope he can help bring people together 00:32:53.250 --> 00:32:56.750 to disarm one another and end the wars and the 00:32:56.750 --> 00:33:00.480 killings. Terry, thank you so much for speaking 00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:03.359 with me today and for all the great good you 00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:06.079 do. Thank you, friends, for listening to the... 00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:08.519 Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome, of course. Thank 00:33:08.519 --> 00:33:10.460 you, friends, for listening to the Nonviolent 00:33:10.460 --> 00:33:13.500 Jesus podcast. And you could hear many other 00:33:13.500 --> 00:33:16.619 podcasts and find other upcoming Zoom programs 00:33:16.619 --> 00:33:21.140 at BeatitudeCenter .org. And please consider 00:33:21.140 --> 00:33:23.900 offering a donation to support this free work. 00:33:24.140 --> 00:33:26.880 And if you can, please leave some positive feedback. 00:33:27.150 --> 00:33:30.529 a review at Apple or Spotify or whatever platform 00:33:30.529 --> 00:33:33.529 you use, or on the National Catholic Reporter 00:33:33.529 --> 00:33:37.730 website. And please help spread the word by telling 00:33:37.730 --> 00:33:41.009 your friends and churchgoers and colleagues about 00:33:41.009 --> 00:33:43.890 the podcast so that it might grow. May the God 00:33:43.890 --> 00:33:47.089 of peace bless you all, and keep on following 00:33:47.089 --> 00:33:49.789 the nonviolent Jesus. See you next time.