Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm
John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking
with my friend Terry Rinn. This is a project
of BeatitudeCenter .org, where you can find many
other podcasts and regular Zoom programs on the
nonviolence of Jesus and practicing nonviolence
and working for a more just, more nonviolent
world. So I like to begin with a little prayer
as usual. So I just invite you wherever you are
to take a deep breath and just relax. And let's
just all recenter ourselves and invite you to
enter into the presence of the God of peace who
loves you infinitely, personally, and everyone.
And let's welcome the risen nonviolent Jesus
here with us and ask for whatever grace we need
to follow the nonviolent Jesus more faithfully
and do God's will. God of peace, thank you for
all the blessings of life and love and peace
that you give us. Be with us now as we reflect
together on your call to follow the nonviolent
Jesus and work for a more nonviolent, more just,
more peaceful world. Bless us, inspire us, disarm
us, strengthen us, and send us out to do your
will, to do our part to help end poverty, racism,
greed. injustice, war, nuclear weapons, and environmental
destruction, that we might be your holy beatitude
people, your holy peacemakers, and welcome your
reign of universal love, nonviolence, justice,
and peace on earth. In Jesus' name, amen. Well,
it's a pleasure to welcome my friend. Terry Rinn
to the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. Terry is the
author of two great books from Orbis. One is
called Jesus Christ Peacemaker, and the other
is called Gandhi and Jesus, which I hope everyone
will read and get. Terry's a former priest from
Chicago who then became a hospital administrator,
and then from 1983 to 2003, he was president
of Rinn Marketing Consulting Services for over...
400 hospitals in 48 states over 20 years. After
that, in 2006, he received his doctorate in theology
from Marquette University. And then in 2008,
with his wife Sally, he co -founded the Center
for Peacemaking at Marquette University, which
is an amazing project, which has gone on to make
a huge difference in the Milwaukee schools teaching
nonviolence. a nonviolent conflict resolution.
For years, Terry has taught the Introduction
to Peace Studies course at Marquette University.
And the day I decided to launch this whole project,
the Beatitudes Center, I asked Terry to be the
chair of the board, and he said yes, and he gave
me the first seed money to start all this work.
Actually, besides Jesus, this podcast would not
exist without Terry. You and Jesus, Terry. So,
Terry Wynn, welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus podcast.
John, Jesus is the CEO that you've been doing
a great job. Thank you. What Terry means is if
you look on the BeatitudesCenter .org website
and you go to staff, it has CEO, Jesus of Nazareth,
and then director, me, and then the board. And
Jesus is doing a great job. So you and I, we've
been studying Jesus and Gandhi and nonviolence,
and I'm always interested that Gandhi was such
a student of the Sermon on the Mount. and continue
to read it regularly throughout his life and
use it as a guide for everything he did and all
that he discerned. In your book, then, one phrase
you use to describe Jesus in light of Gandhi's
understanding of Jesus's nonviolence. is that
Jesus is the paragon of nonviolence. So I want
you to just tell me your journey, how you came
to that conclusion, and what it means for you
in your own words for our listeners. Tell us
about the nonviolent Jesus. I'd be delighted.
Many years ago, 1968, I hope years at it, I read
a book, The Nonviolent Cross. by James Douglas.
I was a young priest. I was hearing confessions
and between confessions, I got to read this book
and it knocked me out. Especially the quote that
he had from Webb Miller, who was a reporter for
the Chicago Tribune. In 1930, he was writing
on Gandhi's salt marsh. Many of you know the
significance of Gandhi's salt march. The Brits
at the time laughed at him. Oh, you're going
to walk 200 miles from your home. Then you're
going to put your hand in the ocean and pick
up a handful of salt sludge. Oh, we're so afraid.
But Gandhi knew what he was doing. Salt was a
monopoly of the Brits. They sold it to people.
They put a tax on it. Salt in a country as hot
as India is something people can't do without.
So it was a clear symbol to people across the
country what Gandhi was up to, violating their
rules on salt. So Webb Miller's description.
had the phalanx of Gandhi supporters coming up
to the huge containers of salt. And as they came
up to locked doors, they were greeted by a case
in police with steel -tipped truncheons. And
one after another, they were knocked down, broken
skulls, broken shoulders. It went on for hours,
and I was amazed by the nonviolence of these
people. God is nonviolence, I too learned. He
got quite a bit of it from Jesus' Sermon on the
Mount. So that day, I got two heroes. That's
how it started. Forty years later, I was able
to write a book on Gandhi and Jesus. Tell us
the nutshell of your thesis of the Gandhi and
Jesus book. Well, I think the main theme of Jesus,
if I pause and ask you and your listeners to
think about the Apostles' Creed for a minute.
Jesus, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under
Pontius Pilate, died, was crucified. Wait a minute.
Born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius
Pilate. Is there something missing? Yes, his
life. And so it's Jesus' life. John, you hit
a reason. Brilliant. Podcast featuring Walter
Wink's interpretation of the Sermon on the Mount.
That's Jesus' teaching, but I like to focus even
more so on his life. And it seems to me Jesus
devoted his life to focusing on the structures
of violence, not so much the people, the structures.
of violence that led to so much oppression and
pain for people through the Sabbath and the temple
and the Torah. Start with Jesus, Mark chapter
3, comes into his synagogue. There's a man with
a withered arm. And a group of Pharisees who
are there, Mark writes to catch him. They're
playing gotcha. So Jesus paused and he said,
what is the Sabbath? Our wonderful tradition
of rest and re -confirmation. Does it stand for
good or ill? And no one answered. Mark wrote,
Jesus was disappointed and angry. And he called
the young man up to the center. He said, stretch
out your arms. And he healed him. And Mark's
next phrase is what's so important. The Pharisees
went out and took counsel with the Herodians
on how to kill him. He's a marked man, beginning.
of his public life. The Torah, he saw it as being
so twisted. At that time, the Pharisees wanted
the purity codes that applied to the priests
to apply to everyone. So there were a hundred,
at least, rules about eating. More importantly,
they could not. Come in contact with people who
are already unclean, like shepherds who were
with animals all the time or lepers. Worst of
all were the tax collectors for the Romans. And
so you hear the Pharisees saying to the disciples,
what is Jesus doing? How does Jesus oppose? This
twisted version of their wonderful covenant with
Yahweh. How he's eating with tax collectors.
Exactly, the disciples said. He believes in a
God. It's almost like your prayer that you started
the podcast with, John. All embracing, loving
them all. My favorite story in the New Testament.
is the story of Zacchaeus. Jesus coming down
to Jericho, the chief collector, tax collector
for Jericho is Zacchaeus. He climbs up a tree,
he's short, a sycamore, he's trying to catch
sight of Jesus. Jesus sees him and says, hurry,
Zacchaeus, come down. I want to spend the night
in your house, Zacchaeus. is done, I will give
half of what I own to the poor. I will give four
times what I have taken from people. Jesus is
confronting the structures of violence and oppression.
And the third, of course, he turns and sets his
face to Jerusalem. And he goes into the temple
and the temple. He finds the court of the Gentiles
filled with animals. And he sends them all out
and the people changing money. And he said loudly,
my father's house is meant to be a house for
all people. Gentiles couldn't even enter the
temple. And you made it into a den. Well, slightly
thereafter, we read about Caiaphas, the head
high priest, talking about Jesus. He says he's
getting the whole world to follow him. They're
getting uproarious, and that Rome will come and
destroy what we have built, our source of our...
taxes to them and our source of revenue for ourselves.
Why did Jesus die? Because he was killed. Why
was he killed? Because he stood up and offended
the powers that be. Jesus' life. It's amazing.
Amen. It's totally amazing. Now, in your book
on Jesus, you call the book Jesus Christ Peacemaker,
which is a beautiful title, Christ the Great
Peacemaker, trying to make peace between every
human being, the whole human race, and God and
creation. Tell me about that phrase in particular,
because I always use the word nonviolence. How
is Jesus a peacemaker? What is a peacemaker in
your opinion? How do we live out that beatitude?
Blessed are the peacemakers. Well, especially
by standing up and resisting structures of violence
in our own culture, like racism and militarism
and how it looks like ISIS with their attendance.
Places for prisoners. I think that's the most.
The other three parts of being a peacemaker are
remove the suffering from people. Jesus did that.
Two, turn enemies into friends. John 12 says
a lot of the Pharisees had become advocates for
Jesus. His great halachic disputation. Just standing
up for his father as he understood him. And thirdly,
changing the culture's attitude towards violence.
The only group that didn't join the revolution
against Rome, the Christians. They went to Pella
across the river. Jesus changed people's attitudes
towards violence. That's great. And that's your
take on Jesus as a peacemaker and what it means
for us as peacemakers. I wrote it down. You're
saying, yes, helping to end suffering. Yes, turning
enemies to friends. Yes, changing the cultures,
the world's attitude toward violence. But you
began by saying, well, he stood up and he spoke
out and he resisted. And I agree with you because,
I mean, we do it in a spirit of nonviolence and
unconditional love. Few people want to stand
up and speak out and say, hey, no nuclear weapons,
no racism, no war in Gaza, no use of fossil fuels,
because it means you're rocking the boat. It's
not going to be well received in this culture.
And then, you know, great people like Tutu, he
said, you're silence in the face of this structured
evil. is actually equal to the evil, if not greater.
It means complicity. Exactly. Sure. And Jesus
spoke up all the time, Terry. Right. You know?
He sure did. And he was fearless. And you get
the impression, I mean, he must have been as
gentle as Martin King and Mohandas Gandhi. But
he was always talking. Action. is removed, this
is Joe Walter Wink quote, the keystone of the
arch of Christianity collapsed into a religion
of personal salvation. Yeah, that isn't Jesus'
message. Well, you sum up his message then. I
think it might be the kingdom of God is at hand.
Let's get ready, get with the program. How would
you put it? Sure. The whole first part of the
book is on what the kingdom of God, the kingdom
of heaven meant, or the kingdom is. Martin Luther
King later called it. What is your thinking of
the kingdom of God these days? I know it's not
that crazy that I'm asking you that question,
but again, nobody talks about the kingdom of
God, but you could argue from the synoptics that's
the thing Jesus talked about the most. He didn't
talk about himself, really. He's talking about
the kingdom of God. Well, he was talking about
the kingdom of God, but it was God as he understood
it. It was the continuation of the covenant,
the covenant which Yahweh proved himself to be
always with his people. So Jesus proclaimed it.
Abba, my Father, He showed it again and again.
The kingdom is here. It's a combination of a
place and a force. It's here. It's with me. It's
with the people who follow me. You know, my understanding
has evolved over the decades, Terry, and I wonder
what you think about it. So I used to hear in
the Jesuits, a lot of people talking about, we're
going out and we're building the kingdom of God.
Well, I just thought that was wrong from day
one because we're not building anything. And
literally that meant buildings for many church
people. But the kingdom of God already exists.
It's a gift. We're just going to welcome it and
proclaim it and try to embrace it. And so this
realm of universal love and universal compassion,
universal peace. Well, then, you know, I got
looking at Dr. King saying, I have a dream, you
know, of equal equality. Or the abolitionists,
a new world is coming without slavery. Or the
suffragists, hey, women are equal. And you could
go through the list. So this is a translation
I'm using, and you've done a lot more work on
this. phrase the kingdom of God in me. But I've
been saying over the last few years that the
kingdom of God means a world without killing,
guns, violence, war, racism, sexism, nuclear
weapons, digging up fossil fuels, hurting animals
or creation or one child. In other words, it's
a negative way of approaching it because we're
so numb. You know, Walgo isn't that nice and
pious, but, you know. That's true, but I think
still a commitment to nonviolence instead of
violence is at the heart of it. I know I've learned
a lot, I think, of the mass. When I grew up,
as many of your listeners, the mass was considered
a sacrifice. Now, isn't that weird in some way?
But as a conventional understanding, Jesus endured
harm and suffering for our sake, and the conversion
of the bread and wine into his body and blood
made us a part of that. But Vatican Council,
altar turned around, and now it was. Form a community.
Do this in memory of me at first. Do this. Take
part in my sacrifice. Do this meant no. Form
a community of people who can do that. But understanding
Jesus' nonviolence changes it for me. Do this.
My back stiffens. Do what? Act. as I actively
stand up against the structures of violence,
not violently. It's not a relationship that's
vertical to God, not a relationship that's just
horizontal to other people in the community.
It's a relationship to the world. As you're saying,
go out to the world and bring this message, which
is... Surely needs the message of nonviolence.
It works. You're so right to bring that up. And
we can talk, as we both have done, about every
aspect of the life and teachings of Jesus. I
like the Eucharist to take it even, you know,
on another angle from a perspective of nonviolence.
My body broken for you. My blood shed for you.
Do this. Enter the new covenant of nonviolence.
As opposed to, he should have said, if he were
a good Roman or American, I always say, go break
their bodies for me. Go kill those people over
there for me because I'm in charge. No. My body
broken. My blood shed for you. Do this. And Dan
Berrigan put it. We are called to accept Jesus'
preference. This is intense, to accept suffering
rather than inflict suffering, to undergo death,
be willing to be killed rather than to kill.
In other words, Terry, I hear you saying none
of it makes sense without understanding nonviolence.
I agree. It is in the heart of the gospel. Even
though the word nonviolence is not used, we say
love and resist. Does that express adequately
what you mean by satyagraha? And he said, yeah,
but it's in the context of conflict. Everybody
misses that. That's what nonviolence adds to
the idea of love, even in the midst. of conflict.
Yeah, that's powerful. So you and I were in Rome
in April 2016 with 80 other Catholic leaders
from around the globe at the first ever Vatican
conference on nonviolence, which I think now
is a really historic landmark. And we had Marie
Dennis on talking about that. And it led to Pope
Francis writing the first statement on nonviolence
in the history of the church, the January 1st,
2017 World Day of Peace message. And I just want
to invite you to say a word about that kind of
a turning point moment when the Vatican... agreed
and said, yeah, and issued a statement on nonviolence.
And your hopes for Pope Leo and, dare I say,
every priest, bishop, and ordinary Catholic in
the country and the world regarding taking this
message of the nonviolence of Jesus more seriously?
Well, I think there is great hope. I have more
hope in the Catholic Church becoming a peace
church. That's the goodness. because of our leadership.
Not just Francis, but Benedict and Paul said,
I thought a war was coming. Instead, the people
of East Europe rebelled non -violently. And but
again, our good friend has been compiling statements
from Leo. He's up to 50 pages. Maybe we're going
to get an encyclopedia. I loved it. That last
meeting in Rome, when Cardinal McElroy said in
the back row, you were sitting there too. He
listened for two days to people from all over
the world expressing how they had embraced nonviolence
and overcome violence from Sri Lanka to the South
Sudan, etc. And he asked. Finally, he was quiet.
He asked. If Pope Francis came into the room,
what would you ask him for? And you remember
what they all said. Give us an encyclical. And
he's supposed to be waiting for the grassroots
to come to him. And they said, we are the grassroots.
Help us. Help us. Give us the leadership. You
know, the leadership is there, but... Seminaries
don't teach it. You never hear it from the pulpit.
We have a long way to go. People better keep
listening to your podcast and keep learning about
Gandhi and the 80 years of fantastic results.
Read the book by Maria Stephan, please. That
balance is twice as effective as silence. We
can get there. We will finally light the fire,
I hope. I hope so, too. And I'm glad you encouraged
people. I think similarly that all those who
are staying in the church, in all the churches,
have to get over our anger. and frustration and
sadness and move into real love for our local
church ministers and priests and bishops and
go and meet them. Jesus is standing up. fearlessly
speaking to the religious authorities of his
time. And in one minute, the next thing they
say, we go, how are we going to kill this guy?
So this is the guy we follow. So I've tried to
do that all my life. Even as a kid, nobody, you
go up to a bishop and say, can I please talk
to you about Jesus? What do you think about love
your enemies? And no one is talking to them.
But I can say as a priest that they will never
have access. to the nonviolence of Jesus unless
people go and talk to them and give them books.
And that's what we tried to do with the Vatican.
I, though, Terry, bless me, Father, for I have
sinned. I wrote a letter to Pope Leo. I said,
I want an encyclical on Jesus and nonviolence,
but I'm growing so impatient. Now I want Vatican
III, a whole new gathering of 10 ,000 bishops,
all about Jesus. It's never happened before in
the church that we just talked about him and
his nonviolence. And what does that mean for
us? I think that would be helpful. Not so much
on the church. Well, let me ask to sum it up
about your life work at Marquette and the impact
of your Center for Peacemaking in Milwaukee.
So here as a theologian, besides your work in
the hospitals and all, but as a theologian, you've
been writing and talking and involved with a
lot of great peace groups and now the Catholic
Nonviolence Initiative in Rome. But you really
put a lot of time and energy into this, building
this organization at Marquette. and then reaching
out throughout the city of Milwaukee to teach
nonviolent conflict resolution. And every time
I hear you speak, I think it could be a model
for the whole country. So tell people. Well,
Peace Works has become one of the signature programs
of this center. It was designed for Catholic
schools. Public schools asked us to start teaching
peace works in their schools and have developed
into the Success Center. It's staffed by people
who understand restorative justice practices.
And for all the kids that get kicked out or are
suspended, they spend nine weeks surrounded by
love and mental health. and yoga and peace works,
and they come out ready to come back to their
schools. The Success Center is indeed a model
for public schools all over the country. That's
one signature program. I do love seeing what
happens. Our dream was to have undergraduates.
who are ready for learning, experience something
different, and that's peace studies. So one example
of that, Joro came to us from Ignatius, a Jesuit
high school, and first year he majored in peace
studies. I asked in the first class, I always
ask people to be ready to tell me an experience
that they've had when their power, their personal
power, was active. Gerald stood up and he said,
I was fortunate to arrange the world's largest
gathering. It made the Guinness Book of World
Records. I said, what was that, Gerald? And he
said, the world's largest gathering of people
with mismatched socks. Great Joro. Joro went
on to finish his peace studies. He went to Harvard.
He got his theology doctorate and is now teaching
his studies. So if we can have the impact on
one person who has that kind of sense of humor.
We've got it made. That's a happy note to end
our time together. And I thank you for the story
about the young man who, with all that energy,
gathered people, and now he's at Harvard teaching
peace. Let's hope he can help bring people together
to disarm one another and end the wars and the
killings. Terry, thank you so much for speaking
with me today and for all the great good you
do. Thank you, friends, for listening to the...
Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome, of course. Thank
you, friends, for listening to the Nonviolent
Jesus podcast. And you could hear many other
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the nonviolent Jesus. See you next time.