Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm
John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking
with my friend Michelle Dunn, Director of the
Franciscan Action Network. This is a project
of www .beatitudecenter .org, where you can find
many other podcasts and regular Zoom programs
on the nonviolence of Jesus and practicing nonviolence
and working for a more just, more nonviolent
world. So I always like to begin with a little
prayer. So I invite you, wherever you are, just
to take a deep breath and just to relax and recenter
yourself. And let's all enter again into the
presence of the God of peace who loves you infinitely
and personally and everyone too. And let's welcome
the risen nonviolent Jesus here with us. Just
take a moment to ask for whatever graces you
need to follow the nonviolent Jesus more faithfully
and to do God's will. Beloved God of peace, thank
you for all the many blessings of life and love
and peace that you give us. Be with us now as
we reflect together on your call to follow the
nonviolent Jesus and to work for a more nonviolent.
more just, more peaceful world. Bless us, inspire
us, disarm us, strengthen us, and send us out
to do your will and to do our part to help end
poverty, racism, greed, injustice, warfare, nuclear
weapons, and environmental destruction. That
we might be your beatitude people. your holy
peacemakers, and welcome your reign of universal
love, universal compassion, universal peace on
earth. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. Well, it's
a pleasure to welcome today my friend Michelle
Dunn, director of the Franciscan Action Network.
Michelle is a professed secular Franciscan who
has had a long career as a diplomat in the Middle
East and then a scholarly researcher focused
on the Middle East and U .S. foreign policy from
2006 until 2021. She headed programs focused
on peace, human rights, and democracy in the
Middle East at the Carnegie Endowment for International
Peace and the Atlantic Council. You probably
have heard her before with her many commentaries
over the years on NPR's All Things Considered.
Before that, she served for nearly 20 years in
the U .S. State Department, including assignments
in Jerusalem and Cairo. She holds a Ph .D. from
Georgetown University and lives in Washington,
D .C. with her husband, Charles. And you might
check out the Franciscan Action Network at franciscanaction
.org. So, Michelle Dunn, welcome to the Nonviolent
Jesus podcast. Thank you so much, John. I'm really
honored that you invited me. Great to have you.
So let's start a little bit with your own journey
first into the Franciscan way of life and vision.
So maybe you could explain to folks what a secular
Franciscan is and maybe a bit of when and why
you became one. And you've had this extraordinary
career abroad and speaking on peace issues in
the Middle East. And how did being a secular
Franciscan fit into all of that? Well, yes, what
a long, strange trip it's been. Look, during
his lifetime, St. Francis of Assisi, you know,
800 years ago, established three religious orders.
One was for friars and one, which was really
established by St. Clair, was for women. And
then, you know, St. Francis started finding that
there were a lot of people who didn't necessarily
want to become a friar or a sister, but they
wanted to follow the Franciscan way of life.
So he formed what's known as the Third Order
for lay people, you know, people who might be
single or married, but were not going to be living
in a religious community. So he started that
during his lifetime. And, you know, nowadays
we call it the secular Franciscan order. It's
a worldwide religious order. It's got like 200
,000 people worldwide, about 11 ,000 of us in
the United States. And so how did I end up in
this? You know, John, it came to me in a very
mysterious way. It's still a mystery to me how
this happened, but it happened at a time of...
crisis in my life in about 2013. And I felt this
very strong and very specific calling to join
one of the lay orders of the church, something
I had never thought about doing, and specifically
the Franciscans. So, you know, I needed something
at that point in my life. So I just followed
this call kind of blindly. And I quickly saw
That what this was about for me, because I didn't
really didn't know anything about St. Francis.
What this was about for me was looking at finding
a pathway that was about humility, simplicity,
poverty. It was an antidote to everything that
kind of had become complicated in my life. I
think about becoming a little too involved with.
power and money and things like that in the international
space. So that's why I joined that order. And,
and it opened up for me one door after another,
you know, God just kind of has led me along from
there and given me one opportunity after another
that, and many of them related to this Franciscan
path. Wow. That's so beautiful. Thank you for
sharing that. So After all that, you ended up
becoming the director of the Franciscan Action
Network, which is really exciting and one of
the national, I guess Catholic, but maybe it's
ecumenical, I don't know, organizations in the
whole country like Pax Christi. So tell us about
that. What does it do and what have you been
working on and where are you going with it? Yeah,
so the Franciscan Action Network, it was formed
initially in 2008 by all kinds of different Franciscan
religious communities. They wanted there to be
a collective Franciscan voice on public policy
issues, especially issues related to peace, justice,
creation, and things like that. It's funny because
after I became a secular Franciscan, I found
out about Franciscan Action Network or FAN, as
we call it. And I became part of the FAN grassroots.
And I was part of the FAN grassroots. And FAN
was really helping me to find a way to express
my Franciscanism. in, you know, on the issues
that I that I cared about. Right. So, you know,
there's a thing, by the way, one of the one of
the. aspects of Franciscanism that I found very
appealing is it's a life of prayer and action,
not one or the other. It has to be both. And
in fact, there's a thing in the rule of the secular
Franciscans. We have a rule, just like all religious
communities. It says that we're supposed to go
from gospel to life and life to gospel, back
and forth, back and forth. So prayer and action,
action, prayer. So I was part of the grassroots
of this organization. And I kept feeling this
call to join the staff of the organization. And
honestly, I fought it for a couple of years because
I had this pretty long and well -established
career in international affairs that I cared
about a lot. But, you know. I think this was
God's will for me to make a change. And I remember,
John, by the way, you were one of the people
whose advice I asked about this at the time.
And you said, 100%, do it. Go to FAN. And so
what we're doing at FAN is, yes, we're articulating
that collective Franciscan voice. We've got 50
religious communities and about... 17 ,000 individual
members across the country. And we formed these
small groups called Franciscan Justice Circles.
We have 30 of them right now in 23 states. And
I, you know, I find it a very exciting work to
be connecting with people. I'm like, how can
we? Take loving action in the world that's rooted
in the gospel, rooted in the Franciscan tradition
established for us by Francis and Claire, and
yet speaking to the issues of our time. That's,
you know, that's really the work of FAN. That's
wonderful. What are you working on right now?
Like you can give me any kind of examples or
campaigns or projects or what is it? What's it?
You know, yeah. Well, I mean, there's... You're
dealing with everything, all the issues. Yes,
the advocacy. Well, I would say, you know, right
now the main constellation of issues we deal
with are justice issues. I mean, that can be
related to, for example, immigration and the
treatment of migrants and refugees, you know,
in the United States. It can be related to poverty,
economic injustice, racial injustice. We work
a lot on teaching nonviolence and trying to advocate
for the United States to play a peaceful role
in the world. And and we worked a lot on even
on democracy issues the last couple of years.
And that's related for us to nonviolence, because
if we want to resolve issues nonviolently in
the United States, democracy is our way to do
it. Right. Because otherwise, if we don't have
that, then things will be resolved by coercion
and domination. So those are some issues we deal
with. And, you know, everything from like recently,
of course. You know, the Congress passed this
big, bad spending bill and President Trump signed
it into law. But we were very involved in advocacy
around that. And although, you know, ultimately
things didn't go the way we had hoped they would,
I do think it made a difference. There was a
tremendous amount of advocacy that went on that
tried to, you know, trim some of the worst aspects
out of the bill. And then also just raised public.
public consciousness about what is in this bill
and how is it going to affect all of our lives
going forward. Oh, wow. That's wonderful. Thank
you for that great work. So, I mean, I can imagine,
but I want to hear you now as the leader of the
Franciscan Action Network, share a bit with us
about the Franciscan perspective or understanding
or vision. on justice, peace, and nonviolence
these days? And what would be unique about a
Franciscan approach? Or maybe it's all the same.
I don't know. You tell me. Well, there are a
couple of things that I think are special about
Franciscanism and what it contributes to these
issues. One of them is that St. Francis himself
had a really clear understanding. about the connection
between possessions and privilege on one hand
and violence on the other hand. Francis, as you
know very well, John, just absolutely refused
to be involved with money or with owning anything,
with owning property or possessions. And he said
very clearly, no, no, he said to his early followers,
no, no, we're not going to have possessions.
We're not going to have property because ultimately
we would need to use violence to defend them.
So he understood that if we cling to possessions
or privileges, it's going to end up in either
our using violence directly or maybe approving
of others using violence on our behalf to defend
what is not necessarily rightfully ours in the
sense of... the justice of God's creation and
how all needs should be met. So I think that
is very clear. That really changed things for
me, thinking about that, about inequity and how
it leads to violence. And then the other thing
I would say that I think is special about Franciscanism
is Francis had an incredible sense of kinship.
with all of humanity. And what's even more unusual
is all of creation, the way he saw the relationship,
not of human dominion over the rest of creation,
but of humans as part of and brothers and sisters
to all of creation. You know his famous canticle,
and this year is the 800th anniversary of the
writing of St. Francis' canticle, sometimes called
Canticle of the Sun or Canticle of the Creatures,
about brother sun, sister moon, brother wind,
sister water, in which he talks about all of
creation and being in that kind of It's just
a radically different understanding than I was
raised with. And I think most of us were raised
with about what's humanity's relationship to
creation. It's so spectacular because here we
are dealing with a collapse of democracy and
global poverty and permanent warfare, but catastrophic
climate change because of our lack of making
the connections, not just with one another, but
creation. Whereas he saw all of that. 800 years
ago yes and it was it was very unusual at his
time too i think very unusual and special and
um but we yeah we've got this broken relationship
with creation you know between humanity and creation
which we see clearly in climate change and um
this is the thing that i found you know francis's
understanding of kinship and trying to come around
to Understanding that on some deep level, accepting
it, what does it mean to practice kinship? I'm
not saying it's necessarily the only way to look
at it, but I think it's a very special contribution
to where we are in the world right now. Beautiful.
Well, you and I have talked over the years a
lot about Jesus and nonviolence. And so I wanted
to ask you what you're thinking about. Nonviolence
and the nonviolent Jesus these days. And, you
know, what do you share with folks? And where
maybe are the challenges or struggles? You know,
because that's also helpful to hear. Anything
you want to share about the nonviolent Jesus?
Because this is the Nonviolent Jesus podcast.
Yeah. You know, John, I'm thinking back to...
What was for me a very important conversation
that you and I had one day, I believe, if I have
the dates right, it was December of 2019. And
you had invited me to go to a climate protest
led by Jane Fonda. It's all coming back now.
Remember how cold it was? Did you get arrested?
Yes, and so did you. So this was the fire drill
Fridays just before the pandemic. And Jane Fonda
got 150 people arrested every Friday. And I called
Michelle and said, we're getting arrested. Okay,
that's right. Tell us about that. And we did
that. And we were on our way. It was a brutally
cold day, and as I recall, I remember you making
fun of me for wearing long underwear, but anyway,
that's okay. I apologize. I'm still working on
my nonviolence. It was a brutally cold day, and
we were walking to the protest, and I said, I
made some sort of a lame little joke about...
offering up our suffering or taking up the cross
or something like that because of how cold it
was going to be while we were going to be standing
out there. And you stopped and turned and looked
at me and said, Michelle, that's not what Jesus
was talking about at all. The offering it up.
You were saying I'm offering it up. The offering
it up, right. And that taking up your cross,
it's not about sort of your everyday, you know,
yeah, it's cold outside and I'm going to be out
here for a few hours. But you, you know, you,
you suggested that I, you know, go back and read
that, those passages in the gospel. And if I,
I think it's in all three synoptic gospels. If
I, you're, you're the expert. Yeah, it is. That
story where Jesus says, you know, if anyone wants
to follow me, you know, you have to take up your
cross. And what you really showed me was that
there are many aspects to the nonviolence of
Jesus, and many of them are gentle and loving.
But what he really gets down to it here, it's
about courage. And it's about sacrifice and being
willing to sacrifice my own, at a minimum, my
own convenience, my own comfort. I often say
that advocacy and certainly activism and protest,
it doesn't really fit into anybody's schedule.
You know, it's it's something that you have to
make a decision to do. You have to make some
sacrifices. And of course, some people make very
large sacrifices in order to, you know, follow
follow Jesus and to and to speak up right and
to speak up for justice and peace and so forth.
And so I think about that a lot. I think that
is something that. It really only started coming
into view for me, you know, about that that time.
Right. Ten, ten years or less than 10 years ago
for me starting to say, well, wait a minute.
You know, am I serious about following Jesus?
And if so, this is going there's this is going
to require some hard things. And, you know, I
have to I have to I have to be be ready for that.
That's so helpful. Thank you. Just to unpack
a little bit more, because I ended up writing
about our conversation in a forward later to
a book by my friend Art Laffin called The Risk
of the Cross, who has also been on the podcast.
And the way I heard you say. Well, I'll offer
it all up. And isn't that what we have to do
anyway? It's cold. And you'll have to forgive
me because I get on my high horse and start preaching.
And once you get me in a protest, well, then
all bets are off. And we were walking to get
arrested. We were going to shut down the Senate
office building to demand action to stop. the
use of fossil fuels. And Jane Fonda and Reverend
Barber and Roshi Joan Halifax and many other
friends got arrested. And we spent a long, cold
day in a kind of a jail. But it was exhilarating.
And I'd love you to say a little bit more about
it. But my thing is, having tried to, and I want
to know what you think about this. So is that
having talked so much about nonviolence throughout
my life and to all kinds of groups. And so many
Christians were just so clueless. But I'm thinking
about the Buddhists who are worlds ahead of us
in so many ways who can be sitting and meditating.
I've spoken to hundreds of Buddhists and I talk
about nonviolence and say, OK, therefore, we
have to be against the U .S. wars here in Iraq,
Afghanistan and building nuclear weapons and
Palestine. And the whole place erupts. And then
I find that some of them have guns and a few
are working at Los Alamos building nuclear weapons.
That nonviolence was a very personal thing. And
Jesus turns and marches to Jerusalem. That's
what I was trying to talk about with you. Like
Gandhi on the Salt March and Dr. King from Selma
to Montgomery or the Poor People's Campaign.
And he's going to do civil disobedience and they're
going to kill him. And he's saying, this is nonviolence.
Now we're in an empire much bigger and worse
than anything the Roman Empire ever did, in my
opinion, headed toward destroying the planet.
So even beyond the Nazis. And that conversation
was important for me because I'm thinking we
all have to. Like here, define the cross as nonviolent
resistance to the empire. There was a great scripture
scholar, the great founding one on the nonviolent
Jesus, who had a devastating sentence he wrote
in 1965. The cross is not a hangnail or a flat
tire. Or I'm dealing with a difficult in -law.
The cross is nonviolent resistance to the empire.
And I remember putting the book down. I read
that in 1982 and going, holy Toledo. And that's
what you triggered in me. How do you, I mean,
inspire people to that? And now that you're unpacking
that and you're the head of the Franciscan Action
Network, basically you're trying to call people
good people. who are already interested in St.
Francis and St. Clair, and therefore the nonviolent
Jesus, to say, well, this doesn't mean just having
to put up with the cold weather or not to complain
about it and your personal problems, because
we've all got issues and problems, but together
we're marching to Washington, D .C. to stop this
culture of war and injustice. Yeah, I mean, one
thing, John, is partly because of my... My own
journey. I realize we're all on our own journeys
and we have to be patient with other people and
where they are on theirs. So look back at me.
You mentioned, yeah, I worked for the U .S. State
Department for 20 years. Okay, I was a diplomat
and I was working on Middle East peace. But I
look back on it now, John, and I realize I was
so much part of the empire. And so much part
of, you know, a diplomatic apparatus that works
very closely with the military, that approves
of the use of force, that approves of economic
exploitation. And even the diplomatic processes
that I myself worked on, for example, Israeli
-Palestinian negotiations, were completely unjust.
right and were uh unjust and and i you know i
don't feel good about it looking back on it right
so so that's where i was okay and thinking thinking
myself full of good intentions and wanting to
make peace in the world and i i was part of all
of that right and then somehow you know god kind
of uh woke me up you know and um and then i had
a period as you mentioned kind of like doing
scholarship and stuff but even still even in
a think tank you're still part of the big um
system In some ways. Right. And there's so many
issues, I said, of money, power, et cetera. And
then and even then then coming out of that and
becoming a Franciscan and then kind of a long
period of trying to learn that spirituality and
develop a real life of prayer and so forth. So,
you know, it's taken me a long, long time. It
took me many, many years to get to the point
where, you know, I would even consider going
to a protest and then. eventually consider participating
in civil disobedience and things like that. And
then there are many people, including yourself,
who've been far more courageous and far more
bold about that than I have been. And so now
when I meet people, and I do meet people in our
Franciscan justice circles and in our network
and so forth, and You know, I'm trying to just
be totally accepting and understanding that people
are at all different points. You know, it's not
even a linear journey. I'm making it sound linear,
but they're at all different places in their
spiritual journey. And that, you know, at FAN,
we're trying to be there for them to provide
kind of the spiritual underpinnings. for taking
loving nonviolent action in the world, and then
also to provide the opportunities, but never
to push, you know, because, you know, some people
are called to different things. Not everybody
is called to the same thing, and certainly everybody
is not called to the same thing at the same time.
That is so beautiful, Michelle. Thank you so
much. And of course, you're right. Love is patient.
Love is kind. And now I'm in a cranky old activist
and patience and kindness aren't my strong point.
I've been at this for 400 years or whatever it
seems. But so that's really lovely. You've been
patient and kind with me. Well, it's helpful.
I'm going to disagree with you. You got to say
a word about that great day. And I think what
Jane Fonda and friends at Greenpeace did was
a kind of a Jesus campaign. Like they're going
to march into the White House and Congress every
Friday and shut the government down in really
meticulous nonviolence. But just give us a word
what that day was like for you. Oh, well, you
used the word exhilarating and it was that way
for me, too. I do think that I find participating
in nonviolent actions and, you know, occasionally
in civil disobedience. For me, it's a deeply
spiritual experience. It's it's almost I really
I would describe it as contemplative in a way.
And and then there is the exhilaration of. Being
with other people in solidarity with other people
and you're all, you know, believing in something
and doing something really unusual, you know,
and taking a risk together. So that's that is,
you know, exciting and exhilarating. You know,
recently I was participating in one of the one
of the big no kings protests. And I was talking
to a friend about it a few days later, and he
said, well, you know, why did you even do that?
What difference does that make? That didn't change
anything that, you know, Trump or anybody else
is going to do. And I said to him, yeah, that
might be true. I said, but I think it it changed
a lot of the people who participated in the actions.
So, you know, that's part of it is like participating
in these actions and finding others who are willing
to and maybe even finding others who are are
bolder and willing to take more risk and more
creative and so forth than you are. I mean, it
encourages people, encourages me, I know, to,
you know, to keep going. So and to, you know,
keep keep. open to uh that i mentioned before
like sort of door god you know oh putting doors
in front of me and saying well what do you think
would you like to walk through this door uh and
a lot of things that i've done in in activism
in recent years have been like that and i think
that you know once you go through one door of
of activism and protest and so forth you start
contemplating other doors. And so, you know,
and that leads, of course, to a broadening and
strengthening movement. Oh, that is so wonderful,
Michelle. I love listening to you. You know,
it's remind me of, you know, I'm pressing, you
know, I was when I was a dopey kid and pressing
my teacher, Daniel Berrigan, and he says nonchalantly,
you only got enough light for the next step.
which is just like something Buddha would say.
And thinking, hearing you about no Kings, my
older brother and his wife, can you imagine the
poor guy having to have me as his younger brother?
He's never been to a protest in his whole life.
He figures that's your department. He and his
wife, my sister -in -law, Karen, went to the
no Kings protests and they were ecstatic. They
were so happy. And then they met all these people.
And then it was in their town. And that's the
point. And that was the Fire Drill Fridays. It
really creates community. And there's joy. If
you do it. like really nonviolently for a just
cause. And this was everything that Gandhi went
through and Dr. King went through. And we experienced
it there. And we all can have moments in the
movement if we go in that right mind of peace,
love, and nonviolence. Because that's where I
think it gets Pentecostal. And it's like a chapter
in the Acts of the Apostles. Yes. You're telling
me that. So let me ask you now that I grew up
in D .C., you're there in D .C. working in the
belly of the beast in the empire. What keeps
you going in these times under the Trump administration,
living and working there? And I know you must
be real busy running the national organization
and also being there, you get connected with
all the issues and all the many other great nonprofits
and good people trying. to struggle for various
justice issues. So what's that like and what
keeps you going there? You know, it's funny that
you just mentioned, you know, what Daniel Berrigan
said about only enough light for the next step.
Because what's going on right now in our country,
in the world, and even specifically here in Washington,
D .C., it is way too much, okay? It's way too
much to bear. Just to, you know, on top of all
the massive global issues with, you know, the
earth on fire and wars and then what's going
on inside our country and threats to our democracy
and everything like that. Just here locally in
Washington, D .C., for example, we're going into
a very serious economic recession because of
all these cuts to the government budget and everything.
So there's all kinds of layers to this. It's
way too much. But to get back to the Berrigan
quote, I what what has been keeping me going
is, first of all, a sense of. purpose at FAN.
Like we need to be there for people right now,
right? We are needed, right? And our work is
needed. And in fact, the organization is growing.
Our Franciscan justice circles are multiplying
rapidly because people need something to do.
So we're very busy. And the way I approach it
is I can't take it all in at once. And so I'm
really just focused on doing the next next right
thing. I feel sometimes as though, you know,
when you're hiking through the woods on a trail
and then you see a blaze painted on a tree. And
very often I find I can only see one blaze at
a time. And then I go there to that tree. And
once I'm there, I look around and then I can
see where the next blaze is, where I need to
go next. What's that word that you use in blaze?
Blaze. Yeah. You know, it's called a blaze on
a hiking trail. No, I don't know what that is.
What is that? You mean a little arrow painted
on a tree? Usually it's like a little paint,
you know, paint on a tree or something. And that
means the Appalachian Trail is that way. That's
right. So you look out for those signs. I'm looking
for that sign. You know, what is the next right
thing? And that is like, what is God's? will
for me and what is mine to do you know saint
francis said this incredibly beautiful and i
think liberating thing when he was just about
to die he said i've done what was mine to do
may christ show you what is yours in other words
you don't copy me do what is yours to do and
so that's like that's every day now that's every
step what is mine to do What's the next thing?
And just and just follow that. And then when
I get there and I trust that when I get there
and look around, then I'll I'll see what you
know, what's the next right thing after that
that God is pointing me to. That's how I keep
going at this point without getting overwhelmed
by all the bad things that are happening and
how, you know, how largely powerless we are to
stop or reverse them. Oh, Michelle, that's so
beautiful. And I think we have talked about that.
You know, that's what my next forthcoming book
is about, surrendering and trying to do the will
of God as the path. And I'm moved to hear you.
Well, I can't wait to read that. Well, we'll
see. But I'm trying to figure it out myself.
So you're experiencing that in your personal
life and it's kind of liberating, but you've
also stepped up to the plate to offer leadership
in the church, which is very exciting. And so
thank you for doing that to help guide more of
us together to do the next right thing together,
which is what I think Jesus wanted. So Jesus
calls us individually, but also communally too.
And you're trying to... I suppose guide all the
thousands of good Franciscan folk. Well, I mean,
there are lots of there are lots of I'm not the
leader of all the Franciscans. But what we do
say at FAN, you know, is that we are trying to
build an intergenerational Franciscan movement
for justice, peace, creation and human dignity.
Right. So movement. Yeah. Well, we're really
at the end of our time. Is there. We'll have
to keep talking, but is there anything you'd
like to add before we end for our listeners?
of encouragement or following Jesus? I really
hope, you know, all the listeners and I'm one
of your loyal listeners understand how much,
you know, you are all needed and wanted in movements
like the Franciscan movement. I'm thinking of
our mutual friend, Brian McLaren, John, and how
he says, you know, you can't control what happens
in this world, but you can control how you show
up for it. So that's it. We all need to show
up and find what's ours to do and do it, you
know, in community with others within movements.
And people are so, so welcome to join the Franciscan
movement. Just find us. We're at franciscanaction
.org. And we will connect you to a justice circle
near you if you'd like to be part of this movement.
Amen. That's wonderful. Well, thank you so much,
Michelle Dunn, for speaking with me today. And
thank you, everybody, for listening to this episode
of the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. You can hear...
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programs at www .beatitudescenter .org. And please
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