WEBVTT 00:00:14.480 --> 00:00:17.620 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:17.620 --> 00:00:20.640 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:20.640 --> 00:00:23.780 with my friend Michelle Dunn, Director of the 00:00:23.780 --> 00:00:27.440 Franciscan Action Network. This is a project 00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:32.840 of www .beatitudecenter .org, where you can find 00:00:32.840 --> 00:00:35.700 many other podcasts and regular Zoom programs 00:00:35.700 --> 00:00:40.280 on the nonviolence of Jesus and practicing nonviolence 00:00:40.280 --> 00:00:43.259 and working for a more just, more nonviolent 00:00:43.259 --> 00:00:45.969 world. So I always like to begin with a little 00:00:45.969 --> 00:00:49.750 prayer. So I invite you, wherever you are, just 00:00:49.750 --> 00:00:55.789 to take a deep breath and just to relax and recenter 00:00:55.789 --> 00:00:59.810 yourself. And let's all enter again into the 00:00:59.810 --> 00:01:04.069 presence of the God of peace who loves you infinitely 00:01:04.069 --> 00:01:09.349 and personally and everyone too. And let's welcome 00:01:09.349 --> 00:01:13.239 the risen nonviolent Jesus here with us. Just 00:01:13.239 --> 00:01:15.280 take a moment to ask for whatever graces you 00:01:15.280 --> 00:01:18.519 need to follow the nonviolent Jesus more faithfully 00:01:18.519 --> 00:01:28.739 and to do God's will. Beloved God of peace, thank 00:01:28.739 --> 00:01:31.900 you for all the many blessings of life and love 00:01:31.900 --> 00:01:35.739 and peace that you give us. Be with us now as 00:01:35.739 --> 00:01:38.239 we reflect together on your call to follow the 00:01:38.239 --> 00:01:42.200 nonviolent Jesus and to work for a more nonviolent. 00:01:42.510 --> 00:01:45.989 more just, more peaceful world. Bless us, inspire 00:01:45.989 --> 00:01:49.969 us, disarm us, strengthen us, and send us out 00:01:49.969 --> 00:01:52.950 to do your will and to do our part to help end 00:01:52.950 --> 00:01:57.510 poverty, racism, greed, injustice, warfare, nuclear 00:01:57.510 --> 00:02:00.670 weapons, and environmental destruction. That 00:02:00.670 --> 00:02:04.230 we might be your beatitude people. your holy 00:02:04.230 --> 00:02:07.530 peacemakers, and welcome your reign of universal 00:02:07.530 --> 00:02:11.229 love, universal compassion, universal peace on 00:02:11.229 --> 00:02:16.729 earth. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. Well, it's 00:02:16.729 --> 00:02:18.849 a pleasure to welcome today my friend Michelle 00:02:18.849 --> 00:02:22.370 Dunn, director of the Franciscan Action Network. 00:02:22.509 --> 00:02:26.330 Michelle is a professed secular Franciscan who 00:02:26.330 --> 00:02:29.050 has had a long career as a diplomat in the Middle 00:02:29.050 --> 00:02:32.090 East and then a scholarly researcher focused 00:02:32.090 --> 00:02:36.150 on the Middle East and U .S. foreign policy from 00:02:36.150 --> 00:02:41.069 2006 until 2021. She headed programs focused 00:02:41.069 --> 00:02:44.349 on peace, human rights, and democracy in the 00:02:44.349 --> 00:02:47.129 Middle East at the Carnegie Endowment for International 00:02:47.129 --> 00:02:50.610 Peace and the Atlantic Council. You probably 00:02:50.610 --> 00:02:54.669 have heard her before with her many commentaries 00:02:54.669 --> 00:02:57.930 over the years on NPR's All Things Considered. 00:02:58.560 --> 00:03:01.439 Before that, she served for nearly 20 years in 00:03:01.439 --> 00:03:03.960 the U .S. State Department, including assignments 00:03:03.960 --> 00:03:07.719 in Jerusalem and Cairo. She holds a Ph .D. from 00:03:07.719 --> 00:03:10.800 Georgetown University and lives in Washington, 00:03:11.000 --> 00:03:13.719 D .C. with her husband, Charles. And you might 00:03:13.719 --> 00:03:18.060 check out the Franciscan Action Network at franciscanaction 00:03:18.060 --> 00:03:22.060 .org. So, Michelle Dunn, welcome to the Nonviolent 00:03:22.060 --> 00:03:26.080 Jesus podcast. Thank you so much, John. I'm really 00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:28.900 honored that you invited me. Great to have you. 00:03:28.919 --> 00:03:32.039 So let's start a little bit with your own journey 00:03:32.039 --> 00:03:36.419 first into the Franciscan way of life and vision. 00:03:36.620 --> 00:03:39.539 So maybe you could explain to folks what a secular 00:03:39.539 --> 00:03:45.879 Franciscan is and maybe a bit of when and why 00:03:45.879 --> 00:03:48.659 you became one. And you've had this extraordinary 00:03:48.659 --> 00:03:56.629 career abroad and speaking on peace issues in 00:03:56.629 --> 00:04:00.710 the Middle East. And how did being a secular 00:04:00.710 --> 00:04:05.789 Franciscan fit into all of that? Well, yes, what 00:04:05.789 --> 00:04:10.849 a long, strange trip it's been. Look, during 00:04:10.849 --> 00:04:14.129 his lifetime, St. Francis of Assisi, you know, 00:04:14.150 --> 00:04:18.050 800 years ago, established three religious orders. 00:04:18.800 --> 00:04:23.319 One was for friars and one, which was really 00:04:23.319 --> 00:04:26.800 established by St. Clair, was for women. And 00:04:26.800 --> 00:04:29.500 then, you know, St. Francis started finding that 00:04:29.500 --> 00:04:32.060 there were a lot of people who didn't necessarily 00:04:32.060 --> 00:04:35.000 want to become a friar or a sister, but they 00:04:35.000 --> 00:04:38.160 wanted to follow the Franciscan way of life. 00:04:38.220 --> 00:04:41.040 So he formed what's known as the Third Order 00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:44.319 for lay people, you know, people who might be 00:04:44.319 --> 00:04:47.220 single or married, but were not going to be living 00:04:47.220 --> 00:04:49.740 in a religious community. So he started that 00:04:49.740 --> 00:04:52.980 during his lifetime. And, you know, nowadays 00:04:52.980 --> 00:04:56.750 we call it the secular Franciscan order. It's 00:04:56.750 --> 00:05:00.170 a worldwide religious order. It's got like 200 00:05:00.170 --> 00:05:03.709 ,000 people worldwide, about 11 ,000 of us in 00:05:03.709 --> 00:05:07.990 the United States. And so how did I end up in 00:05:07.990 --> 00:05:13.029 this? You know, John, it came to me in a very 00:05:13.029 --> 00:05:16.110 mysterious way. It's still a mystery to me how 00:05:16.110 --> 00:05:18.589 this happened, but it happened at a time of... 00:05:18.810 --> 00:05:24.910 crisis in my life in about 2013. And I felt this 00:05:24.910 --> 00:05:29.529 very strong and very specific calling to join 00:05:29.529 --> 00:05:31.990 one of the lay orders of the church, something 00:05:31.990 --> 00:05:35.269 I had never thought about doing, and specifically 00:05:35.269 --> 00:05:40.009 the Franciscans. So, you know, I needed something 00:05:40.009 --> 00:05:42.389 at that point in my life. So I just followed 00:05:42.389 --> 00:05:45.850 this call kind of blindly. And I quickly saw 00:05:46.589 --> 00:05:49.410 That what this was about for me, because I didn't 00:05:49.410 --> 00:05:51.290 really didn't know anything about St. Francis. 00:05:51.350 --> 00:05:55.550 What this was about for me was looking at finding 00:05:55.550 --> 00:06:00.550 a pathway that was about humility, simplicity, 00:06:01.110 --> 00:06:05.449 poverty. It was an antidote to everything that 00:06:05.449 --> 00:06:08.769 kind of had become complicated in my life. I 00:06:08.769 --> 00:06:11.170 think about becoming a little too involved with. 00:06:13.050 --> 00:06:16.569 power and money and things like that in the international 00:06:16.569 --> 00:06:21.649 space. So that's why I joined that order. And, 00:06:21.649 --> 00:06:25.949 and it opened up for me one door after another, 00:06:26.089 --> 00:06:29.810 you know, God just kind of has led me along from 00:06:29.810 --> 00:06:32.769 there and given me one opportunity after another 00:06:32.769 --> 00:06:36.709 that, and many of them related to this Franciscan 00:06:36.709 --> 00:06:40.529 path. Wow. That's so beautiful. Thank you for 00:06:40.529 --> 00:06:45.439 sharing that. So After all that, you ended up 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:47.879 becoming the director of the Franciscan Action 00:06:47.879 --> 00:06:51.279 Network, which is really exciting and one of 00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:55.600 the national, I guess Catholic, but maybe it's 00:06:55.600 --> 00:06:59.939 ecumenical, I don't know, organizations in the 00:06:59.939 --> 00:07:03.259 whole country like Pax Christi. So tell us about 00:07:03.259 --> 00:07:05.740 that. What does it do and what have you been 00:07:05.740 --> 00:07:10.420 working on and where are you going with it? Yeah, 00:07:10.459 --> 00:07:15.279 so the Franciscan Action Network, it was formed 00:07:15.279 --> 00:07:20.740 initially in 2008 by all kinds of different Franciscan 00:07:20.740 --> 00:07:23.180 religious communities. They wanted there to be 00:07:23.180 --> 00:07:27.180 a collective Franciscan voice on public policy 00:07:27.180 --> 00:07:31.519 issues, especially issues related to peace, justice, 00:07:31.980 --> 00:07:40.050 creation, and things like that. It's funny because 00:07:40.050 --> 00:07:42.949 after I became a secular Franciscan, I found 00:07:42.949 --> 00:07:46.829 out about Franciscan Action Network or FAN, as 00:07:46.829 --> 00:07:51.009 we call it. And I became part of the FAN grassroots. 00:07:51.209 --> 00:07:54.290 And I was part of the FAN grassroots. And FAN 00:07:54.290 --> 00:08:01.430 was really helping me to find a way to express 00:08:01.430 --> 00:08:06.930 my Franciscanism. in, you know, on the issues 00:08:06.930 --> 00:08:11.009 that I that I cared about. Right. So, you know, 00:08:11.009 --> 00:08:13.029 there's a thing, by the way, one of the one of 00:08:13.029 --> 00:08:16.160 the. aspects of Franciscanism that I found very 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:19.100 appealing is it's a life of prayer and action, 00:08:19.220 --> 00:08:23.439 not one or the other. It has to be both. And 00:08:23.439 --> 00:08:27.079 in fact, there's a thing in the rule of the secular 00:08:27.079 --> 00:08:29.800 Franciscans. We have a rule, just like all religious 00:08:29.800 --> 00:08:32.639 communities. It says that we're supposed to go 00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:35.639 from gospel to life and life to gospel, back 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:37.860 and forth, back and forth. So prayer and action, 00:08:37.980 --> 00:08:42.259 action, prayer. So I was part of the grassroots 00:08:42.259 --> 00:08:45.500 of this organization. And I kept feeling this 00:08:45.500 --> 00:08:49.960 call to join the staff of the organization. And 00:08:49.960 --> 00:08:52.840 honestly, I fought it for a couple of years because 00:08:52.840 --> 00:08:56.460 I had this pretty long and well -established 00:08:56.460 --> 00:08:58.779 career in international affairs that I cared 00:08:58.779 --> 00:09:02.850 about a lot. But, you know. I think this was 00:09:02.850 --> 00:09:05.950 God's will for me to make a change. And I remember, 00:09:06.009 --> 00:09:07.610 John, by the way, you were one of the people 00:09:07.610 --> 00:09:10.909 whose advice I asked about this at the time. 00:09:10.909 --> 00:09:16.889 And you said, 100%, do it. Go to FAN. And so 00:09:16.889 --> 00:09:20.809 what we're doing at FAN is, yes, we're articulating 00:09:20.809 --> 00:09:24.450 that collective Franciscan voice. We've got 50 00:09:24.450 --> 00:09:29.590 religious communities and about... 17 ,000 individual 00:09:29.590 --> 00:09:32.850 members across the country. And we formed these 00:09:32.850 --> 00:09:36.590 small groups called Franciscan Justice Circles. 00:09:36.649 --> 00:09:41.110 We have 30 of them right now in 23 states. And 00:09:41.110 --> 00:09:47.710 I, you know, I find it a very exciting work to 00:09:47.710 --> 00:09:49.950 be connecting with people. I'm like, how can 00:09:49.950 --> 00:09:54.750 we? Take loving action in the world that's rooted 00:09:54.750 --> 00:09:59.149 in the gospel, rooted in the Franciscan tradition 00:09:59.149 --> 00:10:02.830 established for us by Francis and Claire, and 00:10:02.830 --> 00:10:08.370 yet speaking to the issues of our time. That's, 00:10:08.429 --> 00:10:10.950 you know, that's really the work of FAN. That's 00:10:10.950 --> 00:10:13.169 wonderful. What are you working on right now? 00:10:13.309 --> 00:10:16.210 Like you can give me any kind of examples or 00:10:16.210 --> 00:10:19.830 campaigns or projects or what is it? What's it? 00:10:20.440 --> 00:10:23.639 You know, yeah. Well, I mean, there's... You're 00:10:23.639 --> 00:10:26.559 dealing with everything, all the issues. Yes, 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:29.360 the advocacy. Well, I would say, you know, right 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:33.700 now the main constellation of issues we deal 00:10:33.700 --> 00:10:40.440 with are justice issues. I mean, that can be 00:10:40.440 --> 00:10:44.700 related to, for example, immigration and the 00:10:44.700 --> 00:10:47.799 treatment of migrants and refugees, you know, 00:10:47.799 --> 00:10:54.399 in the United States. It can be related to poverty, 00:10:54.779 --> 00:11:01.320 economic injustice, racial injustice. We work 00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:07.200 a lot on teaching nonviolence and trying to advocate 00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:10.620 for the United States to play a peaceful role 00:11:10.620 --> 00:11:16.740 in the world. And and we worked a lot on even 00:11:16.740 --> 00:11:18.779 on democracy issues the last couple of years. 00:11:18.860 --> 00:11:21.440 And that's related for us to nonviolence, because 00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:24.759 if we want to resolve issues nonviolently in 00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:28.519 the United States, democracy is our way to do 00:11:28.519 --> 00:11:30.759 it. Right. Because otherwise, if we don't have 00:11:30.759 --> 00:11:34.620 that, then things will be resolved by coercion 00:11:34.620 --> 00:11:38.320 and domination. So those are some issues we deal 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:40.799 with. And, you know, everything from like recently, 00:11:40.980 --> 00:11:45.139 of course. You know, the Congress passed this 00:11:45.139 --> 00:11:49.000 big, bad spending bill and President Trump signed 00:11:49.000 --> 00:11:52.519 it into law. But we were very involved in advocacy 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:56.340 around that. And although, you know, ultimately 00:11:56.340 --> 00:11:58.700 things didn't go the way we had hoped they would, 00:11:58.860 --> 00:12:00.899 I do think it made a difference. There was a 00:12:00.899 --> 00:12:04.120 tremendous amount of advocacy that went on that 00:12:04.120 --> 00:12:08.440 tried to, you know, trim some of the worst aspects 00:12:08.440 --> 00:12:11.480 out of the bill. And then also just raised public. 00:12:11.929 --> 00:12:14.570 public consciousness about what is in this bill 00:12:14.570 --> 00:12:16.570 and how is it going to affect all of our lives 00:12:16.570 --> 00:12:19.210 going forward. Oh, wow. That's wonderful. Thank 00:12:19.210 --> 00:12:23.529 you for that great work. So, I mean, I can imagine, 00:12:23.629 --> 00:12:26.870 but I want to hear you now as the leader of the 00:12:26.870 --> 00:12:31.429 Franciscan Action Network, share a bit with us 00:12:31.429 --> 00:12:35.590 about the Franciscan perspective or understanding 00:12:35.590 --> 00:12:40.059 or vision. on justice, peace, and nonviolence 00:12:40.059 --> 00:12:43.440 these days? And what would be unique about a 00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:46.480 Franciscan approach? Or maybe it's all the same. 00:12:46.500 --> 00:12:49.259 I don't know. You tell me. Well, there are a 00:12:49.259 --> 00:12:53.240 couple of things that I think are special about 00:12:53.240 --> 00:12:56.779 Franciscanism and what it contributes to these 00:12:56.779 --> 00:12:59.940 issues. One of them is that St. Francis himself 00:12:59.940 --> 00:13:05.159 had a really clear understanding. about the connection 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:11.659 between possessions and privilege on one hand 00:13:11.659 --> 00:13:15.600 and violence on the other hand. Francis, as you 00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:18.399 know very well, John, just absolutely refused 00:13:18.399 --> 00:13:22.299 to be involved with money or with owning anything, 00:13:22.539 --> 00:13:26.419 with owning property or possessions. And he said 00:13:26.419 --> 00:13:30.019 very clearly, no, no, he said to his early followers, 00:13:30.340 --> 00:13:32.759 no, no, we're not going to have possessions. 00:13:32.820 --> 00:13:35.559 We're not going to have property because ultimately 00:13:36.429 --> 00:13:39.509 we would need to use violence to defend them. 00:13:39.710 --> 00:13:44.590 So he understood that if we cling to possessions 00:13:44.590 --> 00:13:48.509 or privileges, it's going to end up in either 00:13:48.509 --> 00:13:53.269 our using violence directly or maybe approving 00:13:53.269 --> 00:13:56.509 of others using violence on our behalf to defend 00:13:56.509 --> 00:14:01.830 what is not necessarily rightfully ours in the 00:14:01.830 --> 00:14:06.980 sense of... the justice of God's creation and 00:14:06.980 --> 00:14:11.779 how all needs should be met. So I think that 00:14:11.779 --> 00:14:15.120 is very clear. That really changed things for 00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:19.840 me, thinking about that, about inequity and how 00:14:19.840 --> 00:14:23.360 it leads to violence. And then the other thing 00:14:23.360 --> 00:14:26.340 I would say that I think is special about Franciscanism 00:14:26.340 --> 00:14:32.340 is Francis had an incredible sense of kinship. 00:14:32.750 --> 00:14:36.649 with all of humanity. And what's even more unusual 00:14:36.649 --> 00:14:40.950 is all of creation, the way he saw the relationship, 00:14:41.330 --> 00:14:46.590 not of human dominion over the rest of creation, 00:14:46.610 --> 00:14:51.950 but of humans as part of and brothers and sisters 00:14:51.950 --> 00:14:55.629 to all of creation. You know his famous canticle, 00:14:55.669 --> 00:14:59.309 and this year is the 800th anniversary of the 00:14:59.309 --> 00:15:03.490 writing of St. Francis' canticle, sometimes called 00:15:03.490 --> 00:15:06.190 Canticle of the Sun or Canticle of the Creatures, 00:15:06.190 --> 00:15:10.429 about brother sun, sister moon, brother wind, 00:15:10.529 --> 00:15:14.129 sister water, in which he talks about all of 00:15:14.129 --> 00:15:17.750 creation and being in that kind of It's just 00:15:17.750 --> 00:15:21.049 a radically different understanding than I was 00:15:21.049 --> 00:15:23.529 raised with. And I think most of us were raised 00:15:23.529 --> 00:15:27.090 with about what's humanity's relationship to 00:15:27.090 --> 00:15:31.129 creation. It's so spectacular because here we 00:15:31.129 --> 00:15:34.690 are dealing with a collapse of democracy and 00:15:34.690 --> 00:15:37.889 global poverty and permanent warfare, but catastrophic 00:15:37.889 --> 00:15:40.990 climate change because of our lack of making 00:15:40.990 --> 00:15:43.190 the connections, not just with one another, but 00:15:43.190 --> 00:15:46.970 creation. Whereas he saw all of that. 800 years 00:15:46.970 --> 00:15:50.970 ago yes and it was it was very unusual at his 00:15:50.970 --> 00:15:55.549 time too i think very unusual and special and 00:15:55.549 --> 00:15:58.830 um but we yeah we've got this broken relationship 00:15:58.830 --> 00:16:01.830 with creation you know between humanity and creation 00:16:01.830 --> 00:16:05.549 which we see clearly in climate change and um 00:16:05.549 --> 00:16:09.769 this is the thing that i found you know francis's 00:16:09.769 --> 00:16:13.289 understanding of kinship and trying to come around 00:16:13.289 --> 00:16:17.460 to Understanding that on some deep level, accepting 00:16:17.460 --> 00:16:23.440 it, what does it mean to practice kinship? I'm 00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:25.659 not saying it's necessarily the only way to look 00:16:25.659 --> 00:16:29.419 at it, but I think it's a very special contribution 00:16:29.419 --> 00:16:34.080 to where we are in the world right now. Beautiful. 00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:37.080 Well, you and I have talked over the years a 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:40.860 lot about Jesus and nonviolence. And so I wanted 00:16:40.860 --> 00:16:45.779 to ask you what you're thinking about. Nonviolence 00:16:45.779 --> 00:16:50.379 and the nonviolent Jesus these days. And, you 00:16:50.379 --> 00:16:53.360 know, what do you share with folks? And where 00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:57.159 maybe are the challenges or struggles? You know, 00:16:57.159 --> 00:17:00.299 because that's also helpful to hear. Anything 00:17:00.299 --> 00:17:02.419 you want to share about the nonviolent Jesus? 00:17:02.440 --> 00:17:05.079 Because this is the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. 00:17:06.299 --> 00:17:10.200 Yeah. You know, John, I'm thinking back to... 00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:13.000 What was for me a very important conversation 00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:17.940 that you and I had one day, I believe, if I have 00:17:17.940 --> 00:17:22.700 the dates right, it was December of 2019. And 00:17:22.700 --> 00:17:29.059 you had invited me to go to a climate protest 00:17:29.059 --> 00:17:32.420 led by Jane Fonda. It's all coming back now. 00:17:32.740 --> 00:17:36.039 Remember how cold it was? Did you get arrested? 00:17:36.900 --> 00:17:41.180 Yes, and so did you. So this was the fire drill 00:17:41.180 --> 00:17:45.019 Fridays just before the pandemic. And Jane Fonda 00:17:45.019 --> 00:17:49.640 got 150 people arrested every Friday. And I called 00:17:49.640 --> 00:17:53.380 Michelle and said, we're getting arrested. Okay, 00:17:53.440 --> 00:17:57.259 that's right. Tell us about that. And we did 00:17:57.259 --> 00:18:01.599 that. And we were on our way. It was a brutally 00:18:01.599 --> 00:18:04.819 cold day, and as I recall, I remember you making 00:18:04.819 --> 00:18:07.160 fun of me for wearing long underwear, but anyway, 00:18:07.259 --> 00:18:11.180 that's okay. I apologize. I'm still working on 00:18:11.180 --> 00:18:15.299 my nonviolence. It was a brutally cold day, and 00:18:15.299 --> 00:18:20.359 we were walking to the protest, and I said, I 00:18:20.359 --> 00:18:23.460 made some sort of a lame little joke about... 00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:27.839 offering up our suffering or taking up the cross 00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:30.420 or something like that because of how cold it 00:18:30.420 --> 00:18:31.880 was going to be while we were going to be standing 00:18:31.880 --> 00:18:34.720 out there. And you stopped and turned and looked 00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:38.059 at me and said, Michelle, that's not what Jesus 00:18:38.059 --> 00:18:41.460 was talking about at all. The offering it up. 00:18:41.460 --> 00:18:43.680 You were saying I'm offering it up. The offering 00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:46.019 it up, right. And that taking up your cross, 00:18:46.039 --> 00:18:50.240 it's not about sort of your everyday, you know, 00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:52.299 yeah, it's cold outside and I'm going to be out 00:18:52.299 --> 00:18:55.220 here for a few hours. But you, you know, you, 00:18:55.319 --> 00:18:58.740 you suggested that I, you know, go back and read 00:18:58.740 --> 00:19:02.900 that, those passages in the gospel. And if I, 00:19:02.980 --> 00:19:05.779 I think it's in all three synoptic gospels. If 00:19:05.779 --> 00:19:09.190 I, you're, you're the expert. Yeah, it is. That 00:19:09.190 --> 00:19:14.450 story where Jesus says, you know, if anyone wants 00:19:14.450 --> 00:19:18.329 to follow me, you know, you have to take up your 00:19:18.329 --> 00:19:22.430 cross. And what you really showed me was that 00:19:22.430 --> 00:19:27.109 there are many aspects to the nonviolence of 00:19:27.109 --> 00:19:30.230 Jesus, and many of them are gentle and loving. 00:19:30.470 --> 00:19:34.349 But what he really gets down to it here, it's 00:19:34.349 --> 00:19:41.329 about courage. And it's about sacrifice and being 00:19:41.329 --> 00:19:47.009 willing to sacrifice my own, at a minimum, my 00:19:47.009 --> 00:19:51.250 own convenience, my own comfort. I often say 00:19:51.250 --> 00:19:55.009 that advocacy and certainly activism and protest, 00:19:55.250 --> 00:19:57.470 it doesn't really fit into anybody's schedule. 00:19:58.089 --> 00:20:01.230 You know, it's it's something that you have to 00:20:01.230 --> 00:20:04.230 make a decision to do. You have to make some 00:20:04.230 --> 00:20:07.369 sacrifices. And of course, some people make very 00:20:07.369 --> 00:20:12.849 large sacrifices in order to, you know, follow 00:20:12.849 --> 00:20:16.410 follow Jesus and to and to speak up right and 00:20:16.410 --> 00:20:21.069 to speak up for justice and peace and so forth. 00:20:21.170 --> 00:20:25.750 And so I think about that a lot. I think that 00:20:25.750 --> 00:20:29.920 is something that. It really only started coming 00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:33.420 into view for me, you know, about that that time. 00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:36.299 Right. Ten, ten years or less than 10 years ago 00:20:36.299 --> 00:20:39.599 for me starting to say, well, wait a minute. 00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:41.859 You know, am I serious about following Jesus? 00:20:41.980 --> 00:20:45.559 And if so, this is going there's this is going 00:20:45.559 --> 00:20:49.920 to require some hard things. And, you know, I 00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:54.680 have to I have to I have to be be ready for that. 00:20:55.950 --> 00:20:59.329 That's so helpful. Thank you. Just to unpack 00:20:59.329 --> 00:21:02.710 a little bit more, because I ended up writing 00:21:02.710 --> 00:21:06.130 about our conversation in a forward later to 00:21:06.130 --> 00:21:09.430 a book by my friend Art Laffin called The Risk 00:21:09.430 --> 00:21:12.150 of the Cross, who has also been on the podcast. 00:21:12.670 --> 00:21:17.150 And the way I heard you say. Well, I'll offer 00:21:17.150 --> 00:21:19.849 it all up. And isn't that what we have to do 00:21:19.849 --> 00:21:22.950 anyway? It's cold. And you'll have to forgive 00:21:22.950 --> 00:21:27.809 me because I get on my high horse and start preaching. 00:21:27.950 --> 00:21:30.390 And once you get me in a protest, well, then 00:21:30.390 --> 00:21:33.490 all bets are off. And we were walking to get 00:21:33.490 --> 00:21:35.730 arrested. We were going to shut down the Senate 00:21:35.730 --> 00:21:40.839 office building to demand action to stop. the 00:21:40.839 --> 00:21:44.200 use of fossil fuels. And Jane Fonda and Reverend 00:21:44.200 --> 00:21:47.619 Barber and Roshi Joan Halifax and many other 00:21:47.619 --> 00:21:51.099 friends got arrested. And we spent a long, cold 00:21:51.099 --> 00:21:55.019 day in a kind of a jail. But it was exhilarating. 00:21:55.119 --> 00:21:57.519 And I'd love you to say a little bit more about 00:21:57.519 --> 00:22:01.519 it. But my thing is, having tried to, and I want 00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:03.480 to know what you think about this. So is that 00:22:03.480 --> 00:22:06.160 having talked so much about nonviolence throughout 00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:10.559 my life and to all kinds of groups. And so many 00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:13.279 Christians were just so clueless. But I'm thinking 00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:16.619 about the Buddhists who are worlds ahead of us 00:22:16.619 --> 00:22:19.519 in so many ways who can be sitting and meditating. 00:22:19.819 --> 00:22:22.940 I've spoken to hundreds of Buddhists and I talk 00:22:22.940 --> 00:22:26.039 about nonviolence and say, OK, therefore, we 00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:29.039 have to be against the U .S. wars here in Iraq, 00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:31.619 Afghanistan and building nuclear weapons and 00:22:31.619 --> 00:22:35.359 Palestine. And the whole place erupts. And then 00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:38.619 I find that some of them have guns and a few 00:22:38.619 --> 00:22:41.160 are working at Los Alamos building nuclear weapons. 00:22:41.599 --> 00:22:44.799 That nonviolence was a very personal thing. And 00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:48.859 Jesus turns and marches to Jerusalem. That's 00:22:48.859 --> 00:22:51.859 what I was trying to talk about with you. Like 00:22:51.859 --> 00:22:55.380 Gandhi on the Salt March and Dr. King from Selma 00:22:55.380 --> 00:22:57.579 to Montgomery or the Poor People's Campaign. 00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:00.920 And he's going to do civil disobedience and they're 00:23:00.920 --> 00:23:04.299 going to kill him. And he's saying, this is nonviolence. 00:23:04.619 --> 00:23:07.900 Now we're in an empire much bigger and worse 00:23:07.900 --> 00:23:11.680 than anything the Roman Empire ever did, in my 00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:14.299 opinion, headed toward destroying the planet. 00:23:14.339 --> 00:23:19.640 So even beyond the Nazis. And that conversation 00:23:19.640 --> 00:23:22.819 was important for me because I'm thinking we 00:23:22.819 --> 00:23:27.779 all have to. Like here, define the cross as nonviolent 00:23:27.779 --> 00:23:31.160 resistance to the empire. There was a great scripture 00:23:31.160 --> 00:23:34.779 scholar, the great founding one on the nonviolent 00:23:34.779 --> 00:23:39.339 Jesus, who had a devastating sentence he wrote 00:23:39.339 --> 00:23:44.059 in 1965. The cross is not a hangnail or a flat 00:23:44.059 --> 00:23:47.230 tire. Or I'm dealing with a difficult in -law. 00:23:47.369 --> 00:23:49.650 The cross is nonviolent resistance to the empire. 00:23:49.930 --> 00:23:52.170 And I remember putting the book down. I read 00:23:52.170 --> 00:23:55.990 that in 1982 and going, holy Toledo. And that's 00:23:55.990 --> 00:23:59.569 what you triggered in me. How do you, I mean, 00:23:59.609 --> 00:24:03.930 inspire people to that? And now that you're unpacking 00:24:03.930 --> 00:24:06.049 that and you're the head of the Franciscan Action 00:24:06.049 --> 00:24:09.430 Network, basically you're trying to call people 00:24:09.430 --> 00:24:13.349 good people. who are already interested in St. 00:24:13.369 --> 00:24:15.569 Francis and St. Clair, and therefore the nonviolent 00:24:15.569 --> 00:24:19.650 Jesus, to say, well, this doesn't mean just having 00:24:19.650 --> 00:24:23.589 to put up with the cold weather or not to complain 00:24:23.589 --> 00:24:26.309 about it and your personal problems, because 00:24:26.309 --> 00:24:29.130 we've all got issues and problems, but together 00:24:29.130 --> 00:24:31.569 we're marching to Washington, D .C. to stop this 00:24:31.569 --> 00:24:35.890 culture of war and injustice. Yeah, I mean, one 00:24:35.890 --> 00:24:40.460 thing, John, is partly because of my... My own 00:24:40.460 --> 00:24:47.799 journey. I realize we're all on our own journeys 00:24:47.799 --> 00:24:50.420 and we have to be patient with other people and 00:24:50.420 --> 00:24:53.579 where they are on theirs. So look back at me. 00:24:53.700 --> 00:24:57.119 You mentioned, yeah, I worked for the U .S. State 00:24:57.119 --> 00:25:00.579 Department for 20 years. Okay, I was a diplomat 00:25:00.579 --> 00:25:03.119 and I was working on Middle East peace. But I 00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:06.259 look back on it now, John, and I realize I was 00:25:06.259 --> 00:25:09.880 so much part of the empire. And so much part 00:25:09.880 --> 00:25:14.220 of, you know, a diplomatic apparatus that works 00:25:14.220 --> 00:25:19.740 very closely with the military, that approves 00:25:19.740 --> 00:25:22.799 of the use of force, that approves of economic 00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:26.880 exploitation. And even the diplomatic processes 00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:30.460 that I myself worked on, for example, Israeli 00:25:30.460 --> 00:25:33.900 -Palestinian negotiations, were completely unjust. 00:25:35.119 --> 00:25:39.400 right and were uh unjust and and i you know i 00:25:39.400 --> 00:25:41.799 don't feel good about it looking back on it right 00:25:41.799 --> 00:25:45.640 so so that's where i was okay and thinking thinking 00:25:45.640 --> 00:25:48.380 myself full of good intentions and wanting to 00:25:48.380 --> 00:25:51.740 make peace in the world and i i was part of all 00:25:51.740 --> 00:25:55.980 of that right and then somehow you know god kind 00:25:55.980 --> 00:26:00.819 of uh woke me up you know and um and then i had 00:26:00.819 --> 00:26:03.180 a period as you mentioned kind of like doing 00:26:03.180 --> 00:26:05.500 scholarship and stuff but even still even in 00:26:05.500 --> 00:26:09.599 a think tank you're still part of the big um 00:26:09.599 --> 00:26:13.009 system In some ways. Right. And there's so many 00:26:13.009 --> 00:26:16.710 issues, I said, of money, power, et cetera. And 00:26:16.710 --> 00:26:19.990 then and even then then coming out of that and 00:26:19.990 --> 00:26:22.490 becoming a Franciscan and then kind of a long 00:26:22.490 --> 00:26:25.109 period of trying to learn that spirituality and 00:26:25.109 --> 00:26:28.089 develop a real life of prayer and so forth. So, 00:26:28.089 --> 00:26:31.950 you know, it's taken me a long, long time. It 00:26:31.950 --> 00:26:34.069 took me many, many years to get to the point 00:26:34.069 --> 00:26:37.269 where, you know, I would even consider going 00:26:37.269 --> 00:26:42.049 to a protest and then. eventually consider participating 00:26:42.049 --> 00:26:47.950 in civil disobedience and things like that. And 00:26:47.950 --> 00:26:50.970 then there are many people, including yourself, 00:26:51.190 --> 00:26:53.809 who've been far more courageous and far more 00:26:53.809 --> 00:27:00.289 bold about that than I have been. And so now 00:27:00.289 --> 00:27:03.089 when I meet people, and I do meet people in our 00:27:03.089 --> 00:27:05.809 Franciscan justice circles and in our network 00:27:05.809 --> 00:27:11.390 and so forth, and You know, I'm trying to just 00:27:11.390 --> 00:27:16.210 be totally accepting and understanding that people 00:27:16.210 --> 00:27:20.390 are at all different points. You know, it's not 00:27:20.390 --> 00:27:22.529 even a linear journey. I'm making it sound linear, 00:27:22.609 --> 00:27:24.650 but they're at all different places in their 00:27:24.650 --> 00:27:28.150 spiritual journey. And that, you know, at FAN, 00:27:28.230 --> 00:27:31.190 we're trying to be there for them to provide 00:27:31.190 --> 00:27:35.059 kind of the spiritual underpinnings. for taking 00:27:35.059 --> 00:27:39.359 loving nonviolent action in the world, and then 00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:43.299 also to provide the opportunities, but never 00:27:43.299 --> 00:27:47.880 to push, you know, because, you know, some people 00:27:47.880 --> 00:27:50.359 are called to different things. Not everybody 00:27:50.359 --> 00:27:54.000 is called to the same thing, and certainly everybody 00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:56.700 is not called to the same thing at the same time. 00:27:57.819 --> 00:28:00.299 That is so beautiful, Michelle. Thank you so 00:28:00.299 --> 00:28:03.000 much. And of course, you're right. Love is patient. 00:28:03.079 --> 00:28:06.740 Love is kind. And now I'm in a cranky old activist 00:28:06.740 --> 00:28:10.039 and patience and kindness aren't my strong point. 00:28:10.519 --> 00:28:14.460 I've been at this for 400 years or whatever it 00:28:14.460 --> 00:28:16.380 seems. But so that's really lovely. You've been 00:28:16.380 --> 00:28:18.700 patient and kind with me. Well, it's helpful. 00:28:19.059 --> 00:28:22.569 I'm going to disagree with you. You got to say 00:28:22.569 --> 00:28:25.309 a word about that great day. And I think what 00:28:25.309 --> 00:28:28.170 Jane Fonda and friends at Greenpeace did was 00:28:28.170 --> 00:28:30.970 a kind of a Jesus campaign. Like they're going 00:28:30.970 --> 00:28:34.910 to march into the White House and Congress every 00:28:34.910 --> 00:28:38.130 Friday and shut the government down in really 00:28:38.130 --> 00:28:42.089 meticulous nonviolence. But just give us a word 00:28:42.089 --> 00:28:45.819 what that day was like for you. Oh, well, you 00:28:45.819 --> 00:28:48.619 used the word exhilarating and it was that way 00:28:48.619 --> 00:28:53.799 for me, too. I do think that I find participating 00:28:53.799 --> 00:28:57.240 in nonviolent actions and, you know, occasionally 00:28:57.240 --> 00:28:59.880 in civil disobedience. For me, it's a deeply 00:28:59.880 --> 00:29:04.200 spiritual experience. It's it's almost I really 00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:06.839 I would describe it as contemplative in a way. 00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:12.700 And and then there is the exhilaration of. Being 00:29:12.700 --> 00:29:17.059 with other people in solidarity with other people 00:29:17.059 --> 00:29:20.940 and you're all, you know, believing in something 00:29:20.940 --> 00:29:24.259 and doing something really unusual, you know, 00:29:24.259 --> 00:29:29.019 and taking a risk together. So that's that is, 00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:31.880 you know, exciting and exhilarating. You know, 00:29:31.900 --> 00:29:36.400 recently I was participating in one of the one 00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:41.079 of the big no kings protests. And I was talking 00:29:41.079 --> 00:29:43.140 to a friend about it a few days later, and he 00:29:43.140 --> 00:29:45.500 said, well, you know, why did you even do that? 00:29:45.559 --> 00:29:47.960 What difference does that make? That didn't change 00:29:47.960 --> 00:29:52.880 anything that, you know, Trump or anybody else 00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:56.359 is going to do. And I said to him, yeah, that 00:29:56.359 --> 00:30:00.099 might be true. I said, but I think it it changed 00:30:00.099 --> 00:30:03.299 a lot of the people who participated in the actions. 00:30:04.009 --> 00:30:07.109 So, you know, that's part of it is like participating 00:30:07.109 --> 00:30:11.049 in these actions and finding others who are willing 00:30:11.049 --> 00:30:13.950 to and maybe even finding others who are are 00:30:13.950 --> 00:30:16.630 bolder and willing to take more risk and more 00:30:16.630 --> 00:30:19.710 creative and so forth than you are. I mean, it 00:30:19.710 --> 00:30:23.529 encourages people, encourages me, I know, to, 00:30:23.670 --> 00:30:28.430 you know, to keep going. So and to, you know, 00:30:28.430 --> 00:30:32.529 keep keep. open to uh that i mentioned before 00:30:32.529 --> 00:30:36.049 like sort of door god you know oh putting doors 00:30:36.049 --> 00:30:38.089 in front of me and saying well what do you think 00:30:38.089 --> 00:30:40.569 would you like to walk through this door uh and 00:30:40.569 --> 00:30:43.450 a lot of things that i've done in in activism 00:30:43.450 --> 00:30:47.190 in recent years have been like that and i think 00:30:47.190 --> 00:30:50.369 that you know once you go through one door of 00:30:50.369 --> 00:30:53.910 of activism and protest and so forth you start 00:30:53.910 --> 00:30:57.529 contemplating other doors. And so, you know, 00:30:57.529 --> 00:31:00.630 and that leads, of course, to a broadening and 00:31:00.630 --> 00:31:03.329 strengthening movement. Oh, that is so wonderful, 00:31:03.470 --> 00:31:05.829 Michelle. I love listening to you. You know, 00:31:05.849 --> 00:31:09.049 it's remind me of, you know, I'm pressing, you 00:31:09.049 --> 00:31:12.269 know, I was when I was a dopey kid and pressing 00:31:12.269 --> 00:31:16.369 my teacher, Daniel Berrigan, and he says nonchalantly, 00:31:16.509 --> 00:31:19.609 you only got enough light for the next step. 00:31:20.370 --> 00:31:23.250 which is just like something Buddha would say. 00:31:24.329 --> 00:31:26.849 And thinking, hearing you about no Kings, my 00:31:26.849 --> 00:31:30.410 older brother and his wife, can you imagine the 00:31:30.410 --> 00:31:32.630 poor guy having to have me as his younger brother? 00:31:32.730 --> 00:31:35.170 He's never been to a protest in his whole life. 00:31:36.009 --> 00:31:40.490 He figures that's your department. He and his 00:31:40.490 --> 00:31:43.609 wife, my sister -in -law, Karen, went to the 00:31:43.609 --> 00:31:47.339 no Kings protests and they were ecstatic. They 00:31:47.339 --> 00:31:50.359 were so happy. And then they met all these people. 00:31:50.460 --> 00:31:53.880 And then it was in their town. And that's the 00:31:53.880 --> 00:31:57.059 point. And that was the Fire Drill Fridays. It 00:31:57.059 --> 00:32:01.319 really creates community. And there's joy. If 00:32:01.319 --> 00:32:04.369 you do it. like really nonviolently for a just 00:32:04.369 --> 00:32:07.430 cause. And this was everything that Gandhi went 00:32:07.430 --> 00:32:10.549 through and Dr. King went through. And we experienced 00:32:10.549 --> 00:32:12.690 it there. And we all can have moments in the 00:32:12.690 --> 00:32:15.690 movement if we go in that right mind of peace, 00:32:15.710 --> 00:32:17.769 love, and nonviolence. Because that's where I 00:32:17.769 --> 00:32:20.450 think it gets Pentecostal. And it's like a chapter 00:32:20.450 --> 00:32:24.700 in the Acts of the Apostles. Yes. You're telling 00:32:24.700 --> 00:32:28.839 me that. So let me ask you now that I grew up 00:32:28.839 --> 00:32:32.359 in D .C., you're there in D .C. working in the 00:32:32.359 --> 00:32:35.279 belly of the beast in the empire. What keeps 00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:38.099 you going in these times under the Trump administration, 00:32:38.480 --> 00:32:42.059 living and working there? And I know you must 00:32:42.059 --> 00:32:44.240 be real busy running the national organization 00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:47.819 and also being there, you get connected with 00:32:47.819 --> 00:32:51.279 all the issues and all the many other great nonprofits 00:32:51.279 --> 00:32:55.430 and good people trying. to struggle for various 00:32:55.430 --> 00:32:57.910 justice issues. So what's that like and what 00:32:57.910 --> 00:33:02.210 keeps you going there? You know, it's funny that 00:33:02.210 --> 00:33:06.210 you just mentioned, you know, what Daniel Berrigan 00:33:06.210 --> 00:33:08.450 said about only enough light for the next step. 00:33:08.859 --> 00:33:12.980 Because what's going on right now in our country, 00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:17.539 in the world, and even specifically here in Washington, 00:33:17.720 --> 00:33:21.720 D .C., it is way too much, okay? It's way too 00:33:21.720 --> 00:33:26.029 much to bear. Just to, you know, on top of all 00:33:26.029 --> 00:33:30.829 the massive global issues with, you know, the 00:33:30.829 --> 00:33:34.490 earth on fire and wars and then what's going 00:33:34.490 --> 00:33:38.490 on inside our country and threats to our democracy 00:33:38.490 --> 00:33:41.480 and everything like that. Just here locally in 00:33:41.480 --> 00:33:44.059 Washington, D .C., for example, we're going into 00:33:44.059 --> 00:33:47.420 a very serious economic recession because of 00:33:47.420 --> 00:33:50.240 all these cuts to the government budget and everything. 00:33:50.440 --> 00:33:52.599 So there's all kinds of layers to this. It's 00:33:52.599 --> 00:33:57.180 way too much. But to get back to the Berrigan 00:33:57.180 --> 00:34:00.500 quote, I what what has been keeping me going 00:34:00.500 --> 00:34:03.900 is, first of all, a sense of. purpose at FAN. 00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:06.799 Like we need to be there for people right now, 00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:10.300 right? We are needed, right? And our work is 00:34:10.300 --> 00:34:14.019 needed. And in fact, the organization is growing. 00:34:14.239 --> 00:34:17.059 Our Franciscan justice circles are multiplying 00:34:17.059 --> 00:34:19.780 rapidly because people need something to do. 00:34:19.920 --> 00:34:23.400 So we're very busy. And the way I approach it 00:34:23.400 --> 00:34:29.039 is I can't take it all in at once. And so I'm 00:34:29.039 --> 00:34:32.539 really just focused on doing the next next right 00:34:32.539 --> 00:34:35.639 thing. I feel sometimes as though, you know, 00:34:35.659 --> 00:34:37.719 when you're hiking through the woods on a trail 00:34:37.719 --> 00:34:41.139 and then you see a blaze painted on a tree. And 00:34:41.139 --> 00:34:43.840 very often I find I can only see one blaze at 00:34:43.840 --> 00:34:46.599 a time. And then I go there to that tree. And 00:34:46.599 --> 00:34:49.659 once I'm there, I look around and then I can 00:34:49.659 --> 00:34:52.360 see where the next blaze is, where I need to 00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:54.539 go next. What's that word that you use in blaze? 00:34:55.090 --> 00:34:57.969 Blaze. Yeah. You know, it's called a blaze on 00:34:57.969 --> 00:35:00.309 a hiking trail. No, I don't know what that is. 00:35:00.409 --> 00:35:02.730 What is that? You mean a little arrow painted 00:35:02.730 --> 00:35:06.869 on a tree? Usually it's like a little paint, 00:35:07.050 --> 00:35:08.989 you know, paint on a tree or something. And that 00:35:08.989 --> 00:35:12.610 means the Appalachian Trail is that way. That's 00:35:12.610 --> 00:35:16.710 right. So you look out for those signs. I'm looking 00:35:16.710 --> 00:35:20.349 for that sign. You know, what is the next right 00:35:20.349 --> 00:35:24.320 thing? And that is like, what is God's? will 00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:28.039 for me and what is mine to do you know saint 00:35:28.039 --> 00:35:31.139 francis said this incredibly beautiful and i 00:35:31.139 --> 00:35:33.960 think liberating thing when he was just about 00:35:33.960 --> 00:35:37.500 to die he said i've done what was mine to do 00:35:37.500 --> 00:35:41.059 may christ show you what is yours in other words 00:35:41.059 --> 00:35:45.179 you don't copy me do what is yours to do and 00:35:45.179 --> 00:35:48.199 so that's like that's every day now that's every 00:35:48.199 --> 00:35:51.969 step what is mine to do What's the next thing? 00:35:52.010 --> 00:35:54.349 And just and just follow that. And then when 00:35:54.349 --> 00:35:57.090 I get there and I trust that when I get there 00:35:57.090 --> 00:36:01.670 and look around, then I'll I'll see what you 00:36:01.670 --> 00:36:04.170 know, what's the next right thing after that 00:36:04.170 --> 00:36:06.949 that God is pointing me to. That's how I keep 00:36:06.949 --> 00:36:10.150 going at this point without getting overwhelmed 00:36:10.150 --> 00:36:13.309 by all the bad things that are happening and 00:36:13.309 --> 00:36:16.530 how, you know, how largely powerless we are to 00:36:16.530 --> 00:36:20.659 stop or reverse them. Oh, Michelle, that's so 00:36:20.659 --> 00:36:22.960 beautiful. And I think we have talked about that. 00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:27.039 You know, that's what my next forthcoming book 00:36:27.039 --> 00:36:30.320 is about, surrendering and trying to do the will 00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:35.039 of God as the path. And I'm moved to hear you. 00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:38.360 Well, I can't wait to read that. Well, we'll 00:36:38.360 --> 00:36:41.199 see. But I'm trying to figure it out myself. 00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:45.659 So you're experiencing that in your personal 00:36:45.659 --> 00:36:48.280 life and it's kind of liberating, but you've 00:36:48.280 --> 00:36:51.219 also stepped up to the plate to offer leadership 00:36:51.219 --> 00:36:55.119 in the church, which is very exciting. And so 00:36:55.119 --> 00:36:58.239 thank you for doing that to help guide more of 00:36:58.239 --> 00:37:02.739 us together to do the next right thing together, 00:37:02.980 --> 00:37:06.480 which is what I think Jesus wanted. So Jesus 00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:10.780 calls us individually, but also communally too. 00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:15.250 And you're trying to... I suppose guide all the 00:37:15.250 --> 00:37:19.469 thousands of good Franciscan folk. Well, I mean, 00:37:19.489 --> 00:37:22.369 there are lots of there are lots of I'm not the 00:37:22.369 --> 00:37:24.690 leader of all the Franciscans. But what we do 00:37:24.690 --> 00:37:29.670 say at FAN, you know, is that we are trying to 00:37:29.670 --> 00:37:34.190 build an intergenerational Franciscan movement 00:37:34.190 --> 00:37:37.909 for justice, peace, creation and human dignity. 00:37:38.269 --> 00:37:42.050 Right. So movement. Yeah. Well, we're really 00:37:42.050 --> 00:37:46.179 at the end of our time. Is there. We'll have 00:37:46.179 --> 00:37:48.360 to keep talking, but is there anything you'd 00:37:48.360 --> 00:37:51.239 like to add before we end for our listeners? 00:37:51.820 --> 00:37:54.639 of encouragement or following Jesus? I really 00:37:54.639 --> 00:37:57.980 hope, you know, all the listeners and I'm one 00:37:57.980 --> 00:38:00.800 of your loyal listeners understand how much, 00:38:00.840 --> 00:38:05.320 you know, you are all needed and wanted in movements 00:38:05.320 --> 00:38:08.519 like the Franciscan movement. I'm thinking of 00:38:08.519 --> 00:38:12.280 our mutual friend, Brian McLaren, John, and how 00:38:12.280 --> 00:38:15.039 he says, you know, you can't control what happens 00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:18.179 in this world, but you can control how you show 00:38:18.179 --> 00:38:21.929 up for it. So that's it. We all need to show 00:38:21.929 --> 00:38:26.630 up and find what's ours to do and do it, you 00:38:26.630 --> 00:38:29.929 know, in community with others within movements. 00:38:30.510 --> 00:38:34.269 And people are so, so welcome to join the Franciscan 00:38:34.269 --> 00:38:37.090 movement. Just find us. We're at franciscanaction 00:38:37.090 --> 00:38:41.510 .org. And we will connect you to a justice circle 00:38:41.510 --> 00:38:43.789 near you if you'd like to be part of this movement. 00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:47.019 Amen. That's wonderful. Well, thank you so much, 00:38:47.179 --> 00:38:49.960 Michelle Dunn, for speaking with me today. And 00:38:49.960 --> 00:38:53.019 thank you, everybody, for listening to this episode 00:38:53.019 --> 00:38:55.719 of the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. You can hear... 00:38:56.590 --> 00:38:59.789 other podcasts, and find other upcoming Zoom 00:38:59.789 --> 00:39:05.750 programs at www .beatitudescenter .org. And please 00:39:05.750 --> 00:39:08.250 consider offering a donation to support this 00:39:08.250 --> 00:39:12.289 free work. It's all for free. And if you can, 00:39:12.469 --> 00:39:16.929 give us some positive feedback or review on Apple 00:39:16.929 --> 00:39:20.210 or Spotify or whatever platform you use, or if 00:39:20.210 --> 00:39:22.150 you get us through the National Catholic Reporter. 00:39:23.230 --> 00:39:25.849 And please tell your friends and colleagues and 00:39:25.849 --> 00:39:28.510 church workers about this podcast. That's probably 00:39:28.510 --> 00:39:31.489 the best way to help it spread through word of 00:39:31.489 --> 00:39:34.630 mouth. So may the God of peace bless us all and 00:39:34.630 --> 00:39:37.349 keep on following the nonviolent Jesus, everyone, 00:39:37.469 --> 00:39:38.650 and see you next time.