WEBVTT 00:00:15.310 --> 00:00:18.329 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:18.329 --> 00:00:20.989 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:20.989 --> 00:00:23.929 with my friend, Reverend Charles McCarthy, a 00:00:23.929 --> 00:00:27.530 longtime teacher of Christian nonviolence. This 00:00:27.530 --> 00:00:33.649 is a project of www .beatitudecenter .org, and 00:00:33.649 --> 00:00:36.530 where you can find there many other podcasts 00:00:36.530 --> 00:00:39.929 and regular Zoom programs. on the nonviolence 00:00:39.929 --> 00:00:42.990 of Jesus and practicing nonviolence and working 00:00:42.990 --> 00:00:46.850 for a more just, more nonviolent world. So as 00:00:46.850 --> 00:00:48.729 usual, I like to begin with a little prayer. 00:00:48.890 --> 00:00:52.270 So I invite everyone, wherever you are, just 00:00:52.270 --> 00:00:57.070 to take a deep breath and to relax and let's 00:00:57.070 --> 00:01:01.009 recenter ourselves and enter into the presence 00:01:01.009 --> 00:01:04.870 of the God of peace who loves you infinitely 00:01:04.870 --> 00:01:08.900 and personally and everyone. And let's welcome 00:01:08.900 --> 00:01:12.959 the risen nonviolent Jesus here with us now and 00:01:12.959 --> 00:01:15.599 ask for the grace to follow the nonviolent Jesus 00:01:15.599 --> 00:01:24.599 ever more faithfully and to do God's will. God 00:01:24.599 --> 00:01:28.219 of peace. Thank you for all the blessings of 00:01:28.219 --> 00:01:31.260 life, love, and peace that you give us. Be with 00:01:31.260 --> 00:01:34.680 us now as we reflect together on your call to 00:01:34.680 --> 00:01:37.819 follow the nonviolent Jesus and work for a more 00:01:37.819 --> 00:01:41.439 nonviolent, more just world. Bless us, inspire 00:01:41.439 --> 00:01:44.840 us, disarm us, strengthen us, and send us out 00:01:44.840 --> 00:01:48.060 to do your will and to do our part to help end 00:01:48.060 --> 00:01:53.090 poverty, racism, greed. warfare, injustice, nuclear 00:01:53.090 --> 00:01:55.829 weapons, and environmental destruction, that 00:01:55.829 --> 00:01:59.170 we might be your beatitude people, your holy 00:01:59.170 --> 00:02:02.450 peacemakers, your beloved sons and daughters, 00:02:02.590 --> 00:02:06.989 and welcome your reign of universal love, nonviolence, 00:02:06.989 --> 00:02:10.849 and peace on earth. In Jesus' name, amen. It's 00:02:10.849 --> 00:02:14.389 a great pleasure to welcome and introduce everyone 00:02:14.389 --> 00:02:17.669 to my friend, Reverend Emanuel Charles McCarthy. 00:02:18.569 --> 00:02:21.689 one of the world's greatest teachers of Christian 00:02:21.689 --> 00:02:25.250 nonviolence. I kid you not. And he's been my 00:02:25.250 --> 00:02:28.650 personal teacher since I first went on a weekend 00:02:28.650 --> 00:02:31.650 retreat with him in Washington, D .C. in early 00:02:31.650 --> 00:02:37.110 1984. It was kind of life -changing. Father Charlie 00:02:37.110 --> 00:02:40.419 McCarthy is a priest. of one of the Eastern Catholic 00:02:40.419 --> 00:02:43.439 churches, so the Byzantine Melkite Rite, which 00:02:43.439 --> 00:02:45.900 is, of course, in communion with the Bishop of 00:02:45.900 --> 00:02:48.819 Rome. He has been a Catholic priest, therefore, 00:02:48.900 --> 00:02:54.759 for 40 years. ordained on August 9th, 1981 in 00:02:54.759 --> 00:02:58.120 Damascus, Syria. He received his bachelor of 00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:00.659 arts degree with majors in philosophy and English 00:03:00.659 --> 00:03:04.740 from the University of Notre Dame in 1962, and 00:03:04.740 --> 00:03:07.360 then went on to get masters in English and in 00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:10.379 theology at Notre Dame. And then he earned his 00:03:10.379 --> 00:03:12.699 doctorate in jurisprudence from Boston College 00:03:12.699 --> 00:03:16.620 Law School in 1967, and then was admitted to 00:03:16.620 --> 00:03:20.210 the Massachusetts Bar. the practice of law. He 00:03:20.210 --> 00:03:23.370 was married for 53 years to Mary Margaret, and 00:03:23.370 --> 00:03:27.449 they have 13 children and 23 grandchildren. And 00:03:27.449 --> 00:03:30.550 famously, thank God, I remember when their daughter, 00:03:30.710 --> 00:03:35.990 Teresa Benedicta, named after Edith Stein, Sister 00:03:35.990 --> 00:03:41.729 Teresa Benedicta, got very sick. We prayed for 00:03:41.729 --> 00:03:45.469 her, and she was cured, and it's the official 00:03:45.469 --> 00:03:49.050 miracle for the canonization of St. Edith Stein. 00:03:49.449 --> 00:03:51.990 Charlie McCarthy taught then at the University 00:03:51.990 --> 00:03:55.389 of Notre Dame, where he founded and was the original 00:03:55.389 --> 00:03:57.569 director of the program for the study and practice 00:03:57.569 --> 00:04:00.370 of nonviolent conflict resolution. He also helped 00:04:00.370 --> 00:04:03.569 found Pax Christi along with Gordon Zahn. Eileen 00:04:03.569 --> 00:04:06.849 Egan, Dorothy Day, and others. And for 25 years, 00:04:06.909 --> 00:04:09.430 he served as a spiritual director and or rector 00:04:09.430 --> 00:04:12.949 of St. Gregory the Theologian Byzantine Melkite 00:04:12.949 --> 00:04:16.670 Catholic Seminary. But really, for me, Charlie's 00:04:16.670 --> 00:04:20.029 been a teacher leading weekend retreats and speaking 00:04:20.029 --> 00:04:23.009 at conferences all over the country and the world. 00:04:23.500 --> 00:04:26.800 on the nonviolent Jesus for over 50 years. She's 00:04:26.800 --> 00:04:29.379 been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. She's 00:04:29.379 --> 00:04:31.879 the author of several books, such as The Nonviolent 00:04:31.879 --> 00:04:34.199 Eucharist, Christian Just Worth Theory, The Logic 00:04:34.199 --> 00:04:37.560 of Deceit, and The Stations of the Cross of Nonviolent 00:04:37.560 --> 00:04:40.750 Love. Our friend... Walter Wink said that Charlie 00:04:40.750 --> 00:04:44.209 McCarthy, quote, is the most powerful voice for 00:04:44.209 --> 00:04:47.050 nonviolence in the world today. And I think you 00:04:47.050 --> 00:04:51.610 can find other talks on YouTube or at emmanuelcharlesmccarthy 00:04:51.610 --> 00:04:55.589 .org. Reverend Charlie McCarthy, welcome to the 00:04:55.589 --> 00:04:59.689 Nonviolent Jesus podcast. Oh, John, I don't know 00:04:59.689 --> 00:05:01.670 if you have any more time on your broadcast. 00:05:01.790 --> 00:05:04.589 It's giving me that buildup. My heavens. There 00:05:04.589 --> 00:05:10.250 you go. Yes. Charlie's coming to us from Boston. 00:05:10.389 --> 00:05:13.329 You can hear his accent. But I remember hearing 00:05:13.329 --> 00:05:17.149 you, Charlie. I was a young Jesuit novice, maybe 00:05:17.149 --> 00:05:20.149 21 years old in Washington, D .C., and then I 00:05:20.149 --> 00:05:22.970 got a privately published transcript of your 00:05:22.970 --> 00:05:26.189 weekend retreat. Remember that, Notes? Mm -hmm. 00:05:26.189 --> 00:05:30.480 I do. It became kind of a guidebook for my life 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:33.100 and work. I still have it today close near my 00:05:33.100 --> 00:05:36.339 bed. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, the same little Xerox 00:05:36.339 --> 00:05:39.860 thing, because I think you gave the clearest 00:05:39.860 --> 00:05:43.420 presentation on nonviolence maybe ever. Because 00:05:43.420 --> 00:05:46.920 you had, you brought, I mean, Gandhi and Dr. 00:05:47.139 --> 00:05:49.540 King didn't get to think through a theology like 00:05:49.540 --> 00:05:53.779 you did. So I want to dive right in, right at 00:05:53.779 --> 00:05:56.439 the beginning, with your definition of our... 00:05:57.199 --> 00:06:00.259 And your understanding of this clumsy word from 00:06:00.259 --> 00:06:03.680 Gandhi and Dr. King, nonviolence. Tell us about 00:06:03.680 --> 00:06:06.100 how you define it and what you think of nonviolence, 00:06:06.100 --> 00:06:14.240 Charlie. Well, I'll tell you, John. Nonviolence 00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:21.100 is almost a word without meaning today. And what 00:06:21.100 --> 00:06:25.180 I mean by that is... A word that has indefinite 00:06:25.180 --> 00:06:30.420 meanings has no meaning. So wherever you, you 00:06:30.420 --> 00:06:33.899 know, as you say, I've been around the world 00:06:33.899 --> 00:06:36.879 with this, and what I find is that what people 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:39.139 refer to as nonviolence is so many different 00:06:39.139 --> 00:06:43.879 things, conflicting and somewhat, in some cases, 00:06:43.899 --> 00:06:47.560 supplementary, but it's very, very difficult 00:06:47.560 --> 00:06:51.300 to... to nail down, you know, exactly what it 00:06:51.300 --> 00:06:53.319 is that people are talking about, which makes 00:06:53.319 --> 00:06:57.540 the conversation on this subject very, very difficult, 00:06:57.660 --> 00:07:00.759 if not impossible, because people are not talking 00:07:00.759 --> 00:07:05.740 about the same content. So as far as I, by the 00:07:05.740 --> 00:07:09.480 way, nonviolence is exactly, exactly in the same 00:07:09.480 --> 00:07:13.620 category as a word as love is, you know, it has 00:07:13.620 --> 00:07:16.579 so many meanings that what are people talking 00:07:16.579 --> 00:07:20.829 about when they talk about. Love. My understanding, 00:07:21.209 --> 00:07:29.649 John, of nonviolence is that nonviolence is an 00:07:29.649 --> 00:07:34.069 adjective or an adverb. It is not a noun in the 00:07:34.069 --> 00:07:38.990 Gospels. Nonviolence is the modifier of what 00:07:38.990 --> 00:07:45.730 saves, which is love. Love modeled on Jesus. 00:07:46.430 --> 00:07:54.389 Love exemplified by Jesus, love. Now, therefore, 00:07:54.689 --> 00:07:58.689 when people ask me for a definition of nonviolence, 00:07:58.689 --> 00:08:01.810 what I mean by it, I say, what I mean always 00:08:01.810 --> 00:08:07.829 is nonviolent love as modeled by Jesus, which 00:08:07.829 --> 00:08:11.029 means, modeled by Jesus in the gospel, which 00:08:11.029 --> 00:08:15.490 means it's a nonviolent love. not just of my 00:08:15.490 --> 00:08:18.810 family, not just of my next -door neighbor. It's 00:08:18.810 --> 00:08:22.889 a nonviolent love of friends and enemies, regardless 00:08:22.889 --> 00:08:26.810 of where they are or who they are. And I kind 00:08:26.810 --> 00:08:30.889 of supplement that by saying the fact of the 00:08:30.889 --> 00:08:34.009 matter is Jesus in the Gospels extends the word 00:08:34.009 --> 00:08:37.370 neighbor, love of neighbor, that's in the Old 00:08:37.370 --> 00:08:39.970 Testament. He extends it out to all human beings 00:08:39.970 --> 00:08:43.879 who are sons and daughters of the Father. So 00:08:43.879 --> 00:08:50.139 nonviolence is, for me, is nonviolent love of 00:08:50.139 --> 00:08:54.500 friends and enemies in the model of Jesus in 00:08:54.500 --> 00:08:58.659 the Gospels. So that's what I use to get started 00:08:58.659 --> 00:09:03.120 and to talk about what I talk about. And therefore, 00:09:03.419 --> 00:09:07.879 when I talk to people about nonviolence as a 00:09:07.879 --> 00:09:15.240 theory or as practice, I find out from them what 00:09:15.240 --> 00:09:17.419 they mean about it, but I tell them what I mean 00:09:17.419 --> 00:09:23.080 about it, and then we dialogue on the difference. 00:09:23.860 --> 00:09:28.840 And so, for example, you would hear a great many 00:09:28.840 --> 00:09:33.419 people, I say, talk about that nonviolence includes 00:09:33.419 --> 00:09:39.120 love. Well, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:44.009 nonviolence... Non -violence is a modifier of 00:09:44.009 --> 00:09:50.450 love. It is love. It is love. And therefore, 00:09:50.649 --> 00:09:55.110 and therefore, model on Jesus, and therefore, 00:09:55.230 --> 00:10:04.389 simply to say, simply to say, I'm doing non -violent 00:10:04.389 --> 00:10:09.509 action. That may or may not hold for me, because 00:10:09.509 --> 00:10:14.370 the question becomes, is that action that you're 00:10:14.370 --> 00:10:19.029 doing, is it imbued with Christ -like love, nonviolent 00:10:19.029 --> 00:10:26.090 love? Or is it just a way of doing secular civil 00:10:26.090 --> 00:10:29.409 disobedience? And the reason for all this is, 00:10:29.490 --> 00:10:32.009 and the reason for this kind of approach to it 00:10:32.009 --> 00:10:39.100 is, that... that at least I, as a Catholic Christian, 00:10:39.360 --> 00:10:43.220 and I am that, you know, as they say, I'm more 00:10:43.220 --> 00:10:47.200 Catholic than the Pope, I, as a Catholic Christian, 00:10:47.419 --> 00:10:53.580 really do believe that, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 00:10:53.580 --> 00:10:57.639 13, if I have all the eloquence of men or angels 00:10:57.639 --> 00:11:00.120 and speak without love, I'm a gong boomer with 00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:04.500 cymbal clashing. If I move mountains... Without 00:11:04.500 --> 00:11:06.840 love will do me no good. If I give away all I 00:11:06.840 --> 00:11:09.840 have piece by piece to the poor, even if I give 00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:14.019 them my body to burn, but without love, it's 00:11:14.019 --> 00:11:18.379 nothing at all. And people quote that, and I 00:11:18.379 --> 00:11:20.860 go on to say with that, to give a cup of tea 00:11:20.860 --> 00:11:24.059 without love is nothing at all. But the point 00:11:24.059 --> 00:11:28.860 is, the word love, Paul is referring to, is referenced, 00:11:28.940 --> 00:11:32.720 first of all, it's agape, not erosophilia. in 00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:35.899 all cases, and it's referenced back to, of course, 00:11:36.080 --> 00:11:39.039 the person of Jesus, which was everything for 00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:45.580 Paul. So is it Christ -like love that is imbuing, 00:11:45.600 --> 00:11:50.139 moving, motivating the particular action that 00:11:50.139 --> 00:11:53.399 is called nonviolence? Or, if someone else wants 00:11:53.399 --> 00:11:56.879 to say, this is nonviolent, without that, they 00:11:56.879 --> 00:12:00.870 can do that. But for me... If the action is not 00:12:00.870 --> 00:12:06.190 motivated and imbued with Christlike love, it 00:12:06.190 --> 00:12:15.549 is not going to be effective in countering evil 00:12:15.549 --> 00:12:19.110 and death and their multiplicity of manifestations 00:12:19.110 --> 00:12:22.669 in this world. Wow, thank you so much, Charlie. 00:12:22.789 --> 00:12:25.370 That's so profound and beautiful and helpful. 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:28.539 You might have heard my conversation with my 00:12:28.539 --> 00:12:31.460 friend Dr. Cornel West recently, and I was talking 00:12:31.460 --> 00:12:33.440 about nonviolence with him, and he said the same 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:35.480 thing right at the end. He said it's all about 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:40.159 love, and love is the key. So you have talked 00:12:40.159 --> 00:12:44.279 about the nonviolent love of Jesus, as your definition, 00:12:44.480 --> 00:12:47.940 and everything being imbued with Christlike love, 00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:51.620 especially anything we might dare call public 00:12:51.620 --> 00:12:54.750 nonviolent action. So I want to ask you more 00:12:54.750 --> 00:12:59.070 about Jesus then, the nonviolent Jesus. And let 00:12:59.070 --> 00:13:03.169 me put it this way. A big quote from me, which 00:13:03.169 --> 00:13:06.389 I might have even gotten from you, was really 00:13:06.389 --> 00:13:10.870 Merton's book. Gandhi insisted that Jesus was 00:13:10.870 --> 00:13:13.210 totally nonviolent. Now that's a paraphrase, 00:13:13.210 --> 00:13:17.070 but he called nonviolence par excellence. And 00:13:17.070 --> 00:13:19.820 then he went on in another quote to say, The 00:13:19.820 --> 00:13:21.700 only people who don't seem to know that Jesus 00:13:21.700 --> 00:13:25.879 is nonviolent are Christians. And I've been trying 00:13:25.879 --> 00:13:29.860 to carry on your work for almost 45 years now. 00:13:29.919 --> 00:13:32.759 I met you and Daniel Berg and my teacher in the 00:13:32.759 --> 00:13:38.100 same month, way back when. And in these last 00:13:38.100 --> 00:13:40.360 years, I'm running the Beatitude Center with 00:13:40.360 --> 00:13:43.799 Zoom programs and now the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. 00:13:46.800 --> 00:13:49.120 And then I came and saw you last year because 00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:52.840 I gave you my copy of my big new book, The Gospel 00:13:52.840 --> 00:13:55.740 of Peace, a commentary on the Gospels from a 00:13:55.740 --> 00:13:58.320 perspective of nonviolence. And I was trying 00:13:58.320 --> 00:14:00.899 to teach, so this is where I'm going with it, 00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:04.100 you can take this any way you want, that actually 00:14:04.100 --> 00:14:09.769 everything in the four Gospels is total nonviolence, 00:14:09.769 --> 00:14:12.450 universal love, universal compassion, universal 00:14:12.450 --> 00:14:15.450 peace. These are all clumsy phrases to try to 00:14:15.450 --> 00:14:20.809 unpack Christlike love. So tell us more your 00:14:20.809 --> 00:14:25.169 thoughts about the nonviolent Jesus, the nonviolent 00:14:25.169 --> 00:14:28.370 love of Jesus, and moving into kind of being 00:14:28.370 --> 00:14:30.929 a channel of his Christlike nonviolent love, 00:14:31.070 --> 00:14:34.789 things like that. Well, I'll tell you, John, 00:14:34.970 --> 00:14:39.330 I think you're right. Everything in the Gospels 00:14:39.330 --> 00:14:46.129 is just point -blankly directed at revealing 00:14:46.129 --> 00:14:50.129 Jesus' nonviolent love. And the reason for that 00:14:50.129 --> 00:14:57.230 is that Jesus is nonviolent because God is nonviolent, 00:14:57.309 --> 00:15:03.049 because Jesus is the incarnation of God. Sometimes 00:15:03.049 --> 00:15:10.980 we forget in the... hubbub of theology and church 00:15:10.980 --> 00:15:13.659 politics and so forth and so on. Sometimes we 00:15:13.659 --> 00:15:20.019 forget the gospel is about God. The gospel, the 00:15:20.019 --> 00:15:23.480 good news is about God. The gospel is about God. 00:15:23.899 --> 00:15:29.139 Now, that being said, the gospel is about God 00:15:29.139 --> 00:15:35.820 himself telling us what God is. And therefore, 00:15:37.630 --> 00:15:44.789 When Jesus becomes human, when God becomes human 00:15:44.789 --> 00:15:47.570 in Jesus, put it that way, when God becomes human 00:15:47.570 --> 00:15:56.129 in Jesus, his purpose is to show us, to reveal 00:15:56.129 --> 00:15:59.090 to humanity what it can't see itself because 00:15:59.090 --> 00:16:02.509 of that mystery we call the fall or original 00:16:02.509 --> 00:16:08.029 sin. To reveal to us... How to love as God loves. 00:16:09.649 --> 00:16:13.210 And that's what Jesus is doing on every page 00:16:13.210 --> 00:16:18.570 of the Gospels. He is revealing to us how to 00:16:18.570 --> 00:16:25.110 love as God loves. Why? Because God is love, 00:16:25.230 --> 00:16:29.570 according to the Gospels. And because Jesus is 00:16:29.570 --> 00:16:35.000 here, because he wants us. He wants us. To be 00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:40.159 at one with God, with the Father, at one. He's 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:42.799 here for atonement, to make us at one with God. 00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:48.240 And how does one enter into oneness with God, 00:16:48.340 --> 00:16:52.659 who is love? By loving as God loves. By choosing 00:16:52.659 --> 00:16:57.100 to love as God loves, one becomes God. So as 00:16:57.100 --> 00:16:59.200 the early fathers of the church used to say, 00:16:59.399 --> 00:17:05.569 God became human. so that human beings could 00:17:05.569 --> 00:17:11.470 become God. That's a normal quote. In fact, I 00:17:11.470 --> 00:17:14.609 believe it's in Vatican II, all sort of footnotes. 00:17:15.069 --> 00:17:19.630 God became human, but when people, as I was nurtured, 00:17:19.809 --> 00:17:23.210 nice Irish Catholic community in Boston, when 00:17:23.210 --> 00:17:26.430 I thought of God, I thought of, I mean, real 00:17:26.430 --> 00:17:31.289 power, ultimate power, power that could make 00:17:31.289 --> 00:17:33.369 the universe and power that could destroy you. 00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:40.019 So when we say God became man, God became human 00:17:40.019 --> 00:17:44.000 so that human beings should become God, we're 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:46.440 not talking about the power. We're talking about 00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:52.500 love. Love. That's God is love. It's is, I -S. 00:17:52.779 --> 00:17:58.740 God is love. And Otheos Agape Estet. God is love. 00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:04.170 And therefore, love became human. So that human 00:18:04.170 --> 00:18:08.890 beings could become love. And how does that look? 00:18:08.970 --> 00:18:13.650 How would human beings know that? Because they 00:18:13.650 --> 00:18:17.410 would look at the words and the deeds and the 00:18:17.410 --> 00:18:23.710 spirit of Jesus in the Gospels. If Jesus is not 00:18:23.710 --> 00:18:30.279 revealing how to love as God loves. How to unite 00:18:30.279 --> 00:18:34.420 oneself with God, in a oneness with God, for 00:18:34.420 --> 00:18:38.599 all eternity by choosing to love in time. If 00:18:38.599 --> 00:18:42.980 that's not what he's showing us on earth or on 00:18:42.980 --> 00:18:49.000 the cross, then what's he doing here? So, my 00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:56.539 sense of the thing is that I have never been 00:18:56.539 --> 00:19:01.099 able to get beyond the fact that as a human being 00:19:01.099 --> 00:19:05.539 now, just as a human being, that when the will 00:19:05.539 --> 00:19:10.259 of God is known, what follows immediately from 00:19:10.259 --> 00:19:15.480 that is an imperative to live it, to embrace 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:18.940 it, to follow it. Now, I'm not saying the will 00:19:18.940 --> 00:19:22.759 of God is easy to know, but I'm saying when a 00:19:22.759 --> 00:19:26.519 person knows the will of God, when it's now he 00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:29.539 says this or she says this is the will of God, 00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:34.359 then it behooves that person, it's imperative 00:19:34.359 --> 00:19:38.599 upon that person to, at that point, begin to 00:19:38.599 --> 00:19:41.700 live it. Not one second before does he or she 00:19:41.700 --> 00:19:44.279 have to live it, but at that point, they do have 00:19:44.279 --> 00:19:48.500 to live it. That is, when the will of God is 00:19:48.500 --> 00:19:53.640 known, the creature is built into him or her 00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:58.019 to know that at that point, they are to follow 00:19:58.019 --> 00:20:02.410 the Creator's will for the creature. That being 00:20:02.410 --> 00:20:06.569 the case, Jesus comes as the Messiah of Judaism 00:20:06.569 --> 00:20:10.569 and as the Word of God incarnate. He comes and 00:20:10.569 --> 00:20:14.970 he reveals, he communicates from God to humanity 00:20:14.970 --> 00:20:20.549 the will of the Father. In fact, he's only here 00:20:20.549 --> 00:20:22.509 to do the will of the Father, nothing but the 00:20:22.509 --> 00:20:26.710 will of the Father. Even under the terrible conditions 00:20:26.710 --> 00:20:28.829 of Gethsemane, he says, your will be done but 00:20:28.829 --> 00:20:32.579 mine. He's here to communicate the will of the 00:20:32.579 --> 00:20:36.460 Father. And what is that will? To love as God 00:20:36.460 --> 00:20:39.299 loves. That's what he's showing us. That's what 00:20:39.299 --> 00:20:41.980 he's showing us on every page of the Gospels. 00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:44.480 And that's what he's showing us on the cross. 00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:49.500 When he says, Father, forgive them for they know 00:20:49.500 --> 00:20:52.240 not what they do. And he says to the thief on 00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:54.640 the right, I promise you this day you'll be with 00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:58.970 me in paradise, etc. He is loving as God loves, 00:20:59.190 --> 00:21:01.569 even under the most horrendous of conditions. 00:21:03.049 --> 00:21:10.029 Now, think about it. It seems to me, he found 00:21:10.029 --> 00:21:11.890 the will of God. He searched for it, and he found 00:21:11.890 --> 00:21:16.009 it. Just as a human being. The will of God was 00:21:16.009 --> 00:21:20.089 to love as God loves. The will of the Father 00:21:20.089 --> 00:21:23.470 was to love as the Father loves. And that's what 00:21:23.470 --> 00:21:30.490 he did. Even in the Gethsemane, my heavens, the 00:21:30.490 --> 00:21:34.650 armed servant, the high priest comes and Peter 00:21:34.650 --> 00:21:39.269 cuts off his ear and Jesus heals the ear of the 00:21:39.269 --> 00:21:43.970 man who is going to take him to his death. Not 00:21:43.970 --> 00:21:48.150 out of a rule, not out of a law, but because 00:21:48.150 --> 00:21:50.809 the man's in pain and to love the man at that 00:21:50.809 --> 00:21:54.240 point. is what God wants them to do because that 00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:58.400 man is a son or a daughter of God. So let me 00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:01.119 give you an immediate, an immediate, right now, 00:22:01.119 --> 00:22:06.400 this day and age, application of this. At least 00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:14.579 in the circles that I enter into, there is a 00:22:14.579 --> 00:22:22.670 real hatred of getting out. Because of what he 00:22:22.670 --> 00:22:29.789 did. What he's doing. A real hatred. And all 00:22:29.789 --> 00:22:33.349 kinds of things are being done by people, said 00:22:33.349 --> 00:22:37.230 by people. Actions are being taken, etc., etc. 00:22:38.410 --> 00:22:41.470 To try to stop him or to make it clear what he's 00:22:41.470 --> 00:22:47.710 doing. Now, nonviolent love of friends and enemies 00:22:47.710 --> 00:22:50.500 does not mean... that you have to stick your 00:22:50.500 --> 00:22:55.079 head in the sand in the matter of truth and ignore 00:22:55.079 --> 00:22:58.740 the fact that what Netanyahu is doing is wickedness. 00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:06.759 It's wicked. But Benjamin Netanyahu is a son 00:23:06.759 --> 00:23:10.259 of God as much as you and I are. He's broken 00:23:10.259 --> 00:23:16.019 like you and I are. He deserves our love as much 00:23:16.019 --> 00:23:18.940 as we want the love of other people. and of God. 00:23:19.819 --> 00:23:23.339 And so, I haven't heard, at least in my world, 00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:26.299 the worlds that I enter into, I haven't heard 00:23:26.299 --> 00:23:29.900 a single person outside myself, and with a certain 00:23:29.900 --> 00:23:34.200 amount of derision if I do it, say, well, let 00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:39.539 us pray. Let us pray for the conversion of Netanyahu. 00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:46.490 Let us pray for his eternal salvation. As an 00:23:46.490 --> 00:23:49.549 old -time Jesuit, John, you know, A -M -D -G. 00:23:50.970 --> 00:23:53.430 What we're about is for the greater honor and 00:23:53.430 --> 00:23:56.549 glory of God, and what Ignatius put after that 00:23:56.549 --> 00:23:59.150 was, and for the salvation of souls, which is 00:23:59.150 --> 00:24:03.329 not said anymore. Yes, the salvation of souls. 00:24:03.609 --> 00:24:07.289 He's a human being. Let's love him. Thank you. 00:24:08.650 --> 00:24:12.450 That's really important, John, that what Jesus 00:24:12.450 --> 00:24:16.009 does in Gethsemane. And on the cross, for loving 00:24:16.009 --> 00:24:20.329 the enemies, my heavens, that's the model, the 00:24:20.329 --> 00:24:23.410 ultimate model of what it means to love as God 00:24:23.410 --> 00:24:26.569 loves, which means it's the ultimate model for 00:24:26.569 --> 00:24:31.470 how we enter into an atoning of making one again, 00:24:31.630 --> 00:24:35.430 communion with God forever. Thank you. Thank 00:24:35.430 --> 00:24:38.750 you. So I want to have two other big questions 00:24:38.750 --> 00:24:42.450 following up on what you've said. The first will 00:24:42.450 --> 00:24:45.279 be about... what you call the imperative to live 00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:49.279 it. Once we have some sense of the will of God 00:24:49.279 --> 00:24:52.160 is to love universally like God does, well, then 00:24:52.160 --> 00:24:54.000 we have imperatives. And then the second thing 00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:56.839 I want to ask you to tell us more about love 00:24:56.839 --> 00:24:59.880 your enemies, especially in light of the just 00:24:59.880 --> 00:25:02.759 war theory and why. But first, let's talk about 00:25:02.759 --> 00:25:08.700 what you said. You and I were teaching even right 00:25:08.700 --> 00:25:12.619 this moment on the Nonviolent Jesus podcast that 00:25:12.619 --> 00:25:16.980 Jesus' total nonviolence or in your world, the 00:25:16.980 --> 00:25:23.279 fullness, the incarnation of universal nonviolent 00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:25.880 love. And that's the will of God for every human 00:25:25.880 --> 00:25:29.180 being. And therefore, there's an imperative to 00:25:29.180 --> 00:25:34.619 change our lives now and start living that. How 00:25:34.619 --> 00:25:37.400 can we do that? How can we help each other change? 00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:40.200 And what would this look like for Christians 00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:43.400 around the world if we started to do this nonviolent 00:25:43.400 --> 00:25:46.400 love of Jesus? And for all the churches, what 00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:49.599 would the, I mean, what would be some signs? 00:25:49.720 --> 00:25:52.240 Where do you see this? How can we all start doing 00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:55.900 this? Any thoughts like that, Charlie? Well, 00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:05.099 yes, indeed. I mean, I think that the... The 00:26:05.099 --> 00:26:07.559 ingredient, John, the human ingredient, but also 00:26:07.559 --> 00:26:12.359 the divine ingredient that's missing that opens 00:26:12.359 --> 00:26:16.960 this up to us is the novitating of our human 00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:22.180 capacity for empathy. Jesus knows the man and 00:26:22.180 --> 00:26:25.099 the God in the Gethsemane is suffering. He knows 00:26:25.099 --> 00:26:27.099 the guy on the cross next to him is suffering, 00:26:27.160 --> 00:26:34.759 etc., etc. Now, people may be... terrible enemies 00:26:34.759 --> 00:26:37.460 to us. They may want to kill us. They may take 00:26:37.460 --> 00:26:41.480 our jobs. They may just talk about us behind 00:26:41.480 --> 00:26:47.279 our back and so forth and so on. But my enemy 00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:53.519 is not the enemy of God. My enemy is still the 00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:56.660 son or daughter, the beloved son or daughter 00:26:56.660 --> 00:27:00.579 of the Father of all, who loves that person personally 00:27:00.579 --> 00:27:04.890 and wants good and wants love too. to be spread 00:27:04.890 --> 00:27:09.250 to him. So I'm the agent of that. Whether he's 00:27:09.250 --> 00:27:12.329 an enemy of mine or not, when I'm in the presence 00:27:12.329 --> 00:27:18.210 of that person, I'm an agent to bring that love 00:27:18.210 --> 00:27:21.269 to that person. And by the way, technically speaking, 00:27:21.569 --> 00:27:24.930 which means I'm an agent to bring the living 00:27:24.930 --> 00:27:28.269 God to that person. So that if I don't bring 00:27:28.269 --> 00:27:32.109 that love to that person, when I'm in his presence, 00:27:32.119 --> 00:27:36.119 his or her presence, I'm depriving that person 00:27:36.119 --> 00:27:41.180 of something of the presence of God. Therefore, 00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:46.519 it is important, you know, to, first of all, 00:27:46.559 --> 00:27:52.000 nurture the capacity for empathy beyond our family, 00:27:52.140 --> 00:27:55.640 beyond our neighborhood, beyond our fellow Marines, 00:27:55.799 --> 00:28:00.700 beyond our fellow firemen or cops, or beyond 00:28:00.700 --> 00:28:07.650 our nation. to emphasize it, to nurture it from 00:28:07.650 --> 00:28:13.170 the cradle in terms of being empathic towards 00:28:13.170 --> 00:28:16.869 every human being. Now, the effect of that is, 00:28:16.869 --> 00:28:22.670 John, is in the real world, every human being 00:28:22.670 --> 00:28:26.329 is suffering. There is no one that is not suffering. 00:28:27.410 --> 00:28:31.509 And therefore... Every human being that we come 00:28:31.509 --> 00:28:35.890 in the presence of, we are capable, if we want 00:28:35.890 --> 00:28:40.730 to recognize, that he or she, like us, like me 00:28:40.730 --> 00:28:44.589 or you, is a suffering human being. And therefore, 00:28:44.890 --> 00:28:51.789 to act accordingly, and that is to be loving. 00:28:52.450 --> 00:28:56.750 It can be a word. It can be a smile. I've had 00:28:56.750 --> 00:28:59.619 that happen. It can be anything, but it can be 00:28:59.619 --> 00:29:02.220 the choice to love that human being at that time 00:29:02.220 --> 00:29:07.740 as opposed, as opposed to laying more weight 00:29:07.740 --> 00:29:11.559 on his shoulders, to hurting him. So that the 00:29:11.559 --> 00:29:14.240 first thing that has to be done and should be 00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:16.980 done through the church, absolutely should be 00:29:16.980 --> 00:29:18.940 done through the church is nurturing. Once the 00:29:18.940 --> 00:29:23.440 child is baptized is the nurturing, intense nurturing 00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:26.359 of the capacity of universal empathy for all 00:29:26.359 --> 00:29:29.900 people. and the desire to do something about 00:29:29.900 --> 00:29:33.099 that. The second thing it seems to me the Church 00:29:33.099 --> 00:29:40.720 has to do is that it becomes imperative to nurture 00:29:40.720 --> 00:29:53.920 from the cradle the sense that God, in the person 00:29:53.920 --> 00:30:00.710 of Jesus, is in me because, if I'm Christian, 00:30:00.809 --> 00:30:05.029 is in me because he explicitly wants me to respond 00:30:05.029 --> 00:30:08.569 in love to that person. That is, especially to 00:30:08.569 --> 00:30:13.769 the person who is the enemy. Anyone can be, anyone 00:30:13.769 --> 00:30:16.390 can respond in love and kindness and so forth 00:30:16.390 --> 00:30:19.890 to their children or their wife or grandchildren. 00:30:20.329 --> 00:30:24.670 But Jesus' particular uniting thing here, that 00:30:24.670 --> 00:30:27.009 there really is, kind of at the heart and soul 00:30:27.009 --> 00:30:30.890 of the nature of the divine love that Jesus communicates 00:30:30.890 --> 00:30:36.289 is to love the one that does not love you, as 00:30:36.289 --> 00:30:41.150 a matter of fact, that is hostile to you. Jean 00:30:41.150 --> 00:30:43.789 Maillet, the fellow at Notre Dame who did the 00:30:43.789 --> 00:30:48.069 five -volume series on Jesus, the Marginal Jew, 00:30:48.230 --> 00:30:53.029 a masterpiece. Now, in his discussion of love 00:30:53.029 --> 00:30:57.519 of enemies, I just make this point. He says, 00:30:57.799 --> 00:31:02.559 no one, no one in the Western canon of literature, 00:31:02.839 --> 00:31:06.700 no one in the Western canon of literature before 00:31:06.700 --> 00:31:10.380 Jesus ever said the sentence, love your enemies. 00:31:10.980 --> 00:31:14.700 It is authentic Jesus teaching. I think that's 00:31:14.700 --> 00:31:17.039 rather extraordinary. It's amazing. So let me 00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:18.940 ask you about that, and then we're going to have 00:31:18.940 --> 00:31:20.680 to wrap it up for now, but I'm going to have, 00:31:20.819 --> 00:31:23.900 I want you to. Keep coming on the program, okay, 00:31:23.980 --> 00:31:27.500 Charlie? Sure, glad to do it, Josh. Several hundred 00:31:27.500 --> 00:31:32.440 other questions for you. So I want you to unpack 00:31:32.440 --> 00:31:34.440 a little of this phrase of love your enemies, 00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:36.440 and I want to tell you a little bit about how 00:31:36.440 --> 00:31:39.039 I pitch it, and you can tell me what you think 00:31:39.039 --> 00:31:42.380 or what, you know, your take on it. I think three 00:31:42.380 --> 00:31:45.039 things, and I'm recording the whole podcast on 00:31:45.039 --> 00:31:48.319 what I call the sixth antithesis. You have heard 00:31:48.319 --> 00:31:51.140 it said, you know. Love your countrymen, hate 00:31:51.140 --> 00:31:53.859 your enemies. I say to you, love your enemies, 00:31:53.980 --> 00:31:55.839 pray for your persecutors, then your sons and 00:31:55.839 --> 00:31:58.380 daughters. So three things. Number one, it's 00:31:58.380 --> 00:32:00.740 nation state language. So we're to be taught. 00:32:00.859 --> 00:32:04.799 I think the call to universal love here is particularly 00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:08.799 to love the people your nation state is targeted 00:32:08.799 --> 00:32:11.259 for death. What do you think of that? Number 00:32:11.259 --> 00:32:14.930 two, there are no exceptions. And that's what 00:32:14.930 --> 00:32:16.990 I want you to say. Unfortunately, I even have 00:32:16.990 --> 00:32:19.490 to ask you about the just war theory. He doesn't 00:32:19.490 --> 00:32:22.670 say, however, if they're really bad and you meet 00:32:22.670 --> 00:32:25.690 these seven conditions, bomb and kill them. I 00:32:25.690 --> 00:32:27.569 remember giving a talk, Charlie, to a packed 00:32:27.569 --> 00:32:31.349 church 20 years ago about Jesus and nonviolence 00:32:31.349 --> 00:32:33.990 in Iraq. And this sweet lady stood up and said, 00:32:34.089 --> 00:32:36.109 well, this is all great, John, but sometimes 00:32:36.109 --> 00:32:40.569 you just got to kill somebody. She means Hitler 00:32:40.569 --> 00:32:43.990 and Saddam and Osama. And I'm like, no, that's 00:32:43.990 --> 00:32:47.410 the point. And then the third thing, so I'm talking 00:32:47.410 --> 00:32:50.990 nation state, just war theory. And I remember 00:32:50.990 --> 00:32:54.089 before I met you, I was on a retreat and I'm 00:32:54.089 --> 00:32:56.970 going, yeah, okay, Jesus, I'll try. But why? 00:32:57.609 --> 00:33:01.670 And I couldn't find anybody of the spiritual 00:33:01.670 --> 00:33:04.750 directors to tell me why until I read Martin 00:33:04.750 --> 00:33:07.609 Luther King's book. brilliant sermon on love 00:33:07.609 --> 00:33:10.150 your enemies. And he says there, Jesus doesn't 00:33:10.150 --> 00:33:12.589 say to do it because it's the good to be done. 00:33:12.710 --> 00:33:15.809 Don't do it because it's the moral position and 00:33:15.809 --> 00:33:18.789 the philosophical position to take. And don't 00:33:18.789 --> 00:33:20.329 even love your enemies because it's the only 00:33:20.329 --> 00:33:22.950 practical political solution, which is really 00:33:22.950 --> 00:33:27.269 incredible. He says it's right there. Love your 00:33:27.269 --> 00:33:31.210 enemies because then you're really sons and daughters 00:33:31.210 --> 00:33:34.400 of the God. who lets the sun rise in the good 00:33:34.400 --> 00:33:35.859 and the bad and the rain to fall in the just 00:33:35.859 --> 00:33:39.039 and the unjust. In other words, it's the clearest 00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:41.619 description of the nature of God. What do you 00:33:41.619 --> 00:33:45.539 think? I think, John, first of all, with the 00:33:45.539 --> 00:33:58.279 nationalism, there is a contradiction, deep and 00:33:58.279 --> 00:34:03.700 permanently abiding between nationalism, and 00:34:03.700 --> 00:34:08.739 Catholicism, small c. Which means universalism, 00:34:08.760 --> 00:34:12.760 right? That's right. That's right. And the reason 00:34:12.760 --> 00:34:15.539 the Catholic Church is the Catholic Church, and 00:34:15.539 --> 00:34:18.480 the reason we say even in the creeds of the Orthodox, 00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:21.460 same Nicene Creed, we even say one holy Catholic, 00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:24.300 it does not mean Catholic institution, Roman 00:34:24.300 --> 00:34:28.199 Catholic, it means Catholic universal. Jesus 00:34:28.199 --> 00:34:32.579 comes for the salvation of all people. And therefore, 00:34:32.820 --> 00:34:36.940 to nurture, and it's done in a lot of ways, to 00:34:36.940 --> 00:34:40.039 nurture in the church, through Catholic schools, 00:34:40.380 --> 00:34:43.420 through the mass, through all kinds of things, 00:34:43.840 --> 00:34:48.079 a nationalism with Jesus as a support system 00:34:48.079 --> 00:34:53.639 is not what Catholicism is. Catholicism is about 00:34:53.639 --> 00:34:57.199 Jesus came to save all people. We don't know 00:34:57.199 --> 00:34:59.739 if it's going to happen, but that has to be our 00:34:59.739 --> 00:35:03.150 hope. In our prayer, in our life's work, the 00:35:03.150 --> 00:35:06.429 salvation of all human beings. And what else 00:35:06.429 --> 00:35:09.809 would we want? As human beings, we know we don't 00:35:09.809 --> 00:35:11.710 like to suffer, and we certainly wouldn't like 00:35:11.710 --> 00:35:14.869 to suffer for eternity. And therefore, why wouldn't 00:35:14.869 --> 00:35:18.309 we want other human beings to be saved? Let me 00:35:18.309 --> 00:35:25.590 give you an example here. It has become common, 00:35:25.909 --> 00:35:29.849 at least around here in Boston. Very common. 00:35:30.190 --> 00:35:32.389 It shouldn't be there. I don't know why it's 00:35:32.389 --> 00:35:35.349 continuing. I know some bishops in the United 00:35:35.349 --> 00:35:38.250 States have stopped it. But around here in Boston, 00:35:38.489 --> 00:35:42.289 priests are continually ending Mass, and after 00:35:42.289 --> 00:35:45.090 the Mass is ended, concluding it by saying the 00:35:45.090 --> 00:35:50.690 St. Michael prayer. Now, I know the St. Michael 00:35:50.690 --> 00:35:53.250 prayer. I was brought up, I was nurtured in saying 00:35:53.250 --> 00:35:57.469 the St. Michael prayer. And then one day, and 00:35:57.469 --> 00:36:01.199 I'm... By one day, I mean in my 20s. It hit me. 00:36:02.260 --> 00:36:05.860 I can't ask God for this. Tell us what it is. 00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:16.340 St. Michael prayer. And now, Prince, the heavenly 00:36:16.340 --> 00:36:19.559 host, by divine power, drive into hell Satan 00:36:19.559 --> 00:36:21.340 and all the other spirits who wander through 00:36:21.340 --> 00:36:23.420 the world seeking the world. What in the name 00:36:23.420 --> 00:36:26.969 of heaven, what human being? wants to send a 00:36:26.969 --> 00:36:31.170 conscious being that can feel pain into eternal 00:36:31.170 --> 00:36:35.789 pain. That's crazy. That's nuts. That's not what 00:36:35.789 --> 00:36:39.650 God's love is. That is not a proper prayer. When 00:36:39.650 --> 00:36:42.190 I say it, and the priest wants to, the pastor 00:36:42.190 --> 00:36:46.369 wants to set it fast, I'll say bind. Bind Satan 00:36:46.369 --> 00:36:49.070 and all the other, not drive into hell. But you 00:36:49.070 --> 00:36:53.250 see, that's de -empathizing the fact that you're 00:36:53.250 --> 00:36:56.510 harming people. And it's all right because you're 00:36:56.510 --> 00:36:58.750 doing God's will. Same thing in the military 00:36:58.750 --> 00:37:00.949 or whatever. Okay, let me, because we only have 00:37:00.949 --> 00:37:03.250 a minute or two left, Charlie, but can you just, 00:37:03.250 --> 00:37:06.710 a word about the just war theory as well? You 00:37:06.710 --> 00:37:10.070 know, that's the way we rationalized national 00:37:10.070 --> 00:37:13.989 war making. I'll give you a word about the just 00:37:13.989 --> 00:37:20.690 war theory, Charlie. It's a boondoggle. It's 00:37:20.690 --> 00:37:25.980 a logical, theological. philosophical boondoggle 00:37:25.980 --> 00:37:32.760 because what it's doing is it's making an exception 00:37:32.760 --> 00:37:37.280 to Jesus' absolute teachings of nonviolent love 00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:40.039 of friends and enemies that Jesus didn't make 00:37:40.039 --> 00:37:43.900 and that was inexistent hundreds of years before 00:37:43.900 --> 00:37:50.619 Jesus. And here's the critical part, that it 00:37:50.619 --> 00:37:55.019 is impossible to implement. It is impossible 00:37:55.019 --> 00:37:57.940 to implement no war in the history of the world 00:37:57.940 --> 00:38:01.679 ever. And no war can meet those standards of 00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:04.739 Catholic just war theory. And I defy anyone. 00:38:04.760 --> 00:38:08.960 I'm ready in any forum to meet with anyone that 00:38:08.960 --> 00:38:11.179 would suggest to me that the standards of the 00:38:11.179 --> 00:38:14.420 Catholic just war theory in bellow and I bellow 00:38:14.420 --> 00:38:19.519 can be met in the actual operation of war. And 00:38:19.519 --> 00:38:23.960 therefore I call it, I call it. I also call it 00:38:23.960 --> 00:38:29.480 theology with a wink. It's as if, okay, we'll 00:38:29.480 --> 00:38:32.099 say it's there. It is there. We say it's there. 00:38:32.159 --> 00:38:38.579 It is there. And we will never reference the 00:38:38.579 --> 00:38:41.000 actual words or the actual standards. We'll just 00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:44.219 say it's there, and that'll be enough to send 00:38:44.219 --> 00:38:46.940 our Catholic men and women over into the hands 00:38:46.940 --> 00:38:52.059 of the king to go kill people. And it has nothing 00:38:52.059 --> 00:38:54.199 to do with the Gospels. There's no exceptions. 00:38:54.199 --> 00:38:59.500 There is. Jesus, it's phony Christian morality. 00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:02.400 That's great. No way, shape, or form. It's a 00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:05.800 contradiction of the teachings of Jesus. Look, 00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:11.760 John, didn't Jesus know that there were ways 00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:14.239 of justifying killing and self -defense with 00:39:14.239 --> 00:39:16.119 violence and so forth? Of course he did, both 00:39:16.119 --> 00:39:20.650 Jew and otherwise. But did he use them? No. Because 00:39:20.650 --> 00:39:23.429 that wasn't the will of God. And he came to do 00:39:23.429 --> 00:39:27.469 the will of God. And God made sure no such thing 00:39:27.469 --> 00:39:30.849 ever appeared in the Gospels. Amen. That might 00:39:30.849 --> 00:39:33.110 be a great note to end on right there. And we're 00:39:33.110 --> 00:39:35.190 going to continue the conversation, okay, Charlie? 00:39:35.369 --> 00:39:37.150 A couple of months from now. Oh, that's great, 00:39:37.250 --> 00:39:42.150 John. Boy, it went by fast. I know. So let me 00:39:42.150 --> 00:39:44.989 wrap up then. And we're just beginning to get 00:39:44.989 --> 00:39:48.150 in the waters of... Nonviolent love of Jesus 00:39:48.150 --> 00:39:50.630 with the great Reverend Charlie McCarthy. Thank 00:39:50.630 --> 00:39:53.230 you so much, Charlie, for speaking with me today. 00:39:53.369 --> 00:39:55.809 And thank you, friends, for listening to this 00:39:55.809 --> 00:39:59.110 episode of the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. You 00:39:59.110 --> 00:40:01.489 can hear more podcasts and find other upcoming 00:40:01.489 --> 00:40:06.090 Zoom programs at BeatitudeCenter .org. And please 00:40:06.090 --> 00:40:08.769 consider offering a donation to support this 00:40:08.769 --> 00:40:11.449 free work and give us some positive feedback 00:40:11.449 --> 00:40:14.389 or write a review at NCR or Apple or Spotify 00:40:14.389 --> 00:40:17.750 or whatever platform. you use and tell your friends 00:40:17.750 --> 00:40:19.829 about this podcast so we can spread the good 00:40:19.829 --> 00:40:23.070 word. May the God of peace bless you all. Keep 00:40:23.070 --> 00:40:26.030 on following the nonviolent Jesus and see you 00:40:26.030 --> 00:40:26.550 next time.