Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm
John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking
with my friend, Reverend Charles McCarthy, a
longtime teacher of Christian nonviolence. This
is a project of www .beatitudecenter .org, and
where you can find there many other podcasts
and regular Zoom programs. on the nonviolence
of Jesus and practicing nonviolence and working
for a more just, more nonviolent world. So as
usual, I like to begin with a little prayer.
So I invite everyone, wherever you are, just
to take a deep breath and to relax and let's
recenter ourselves and enter into the presence
of the God of peace who loves you infinitely
and personally and everyone. And let's welcome
the risen nonviolent Jesus here with us now and
ask for the grace to follow the nonviolent Jesus
ever more faithfully and to do God's will. God
of peace. Thank you for all the blessings of
life, love, and peace that you give us. Be with
us now as we reflect together on your call to
follow the nonviolent Jesus and work for a more
nonviolent, more just world. Bless us, inspire
us, disarm us, strengthen us, and send us out
to do your will and to do our part to help end
poverty, racism, greed. warfare, injustice, nuclear
weapons, and environmental destruction, that
we might be your beatitude people, your holy
peacemakers, your beloved sons and daughters,
and welcome your reign of universal love, nonviolence,
and peace on earth. In Jesus' name, amen. It's
a great pleasure to welcome and introduce everyone
to my friend, Reverend Emanuel Charles McCarthy.
one of the world's greatest teachers of Christian
nonviolence. I kid you not. And he's been my
personal teacher since I first went on a weekend
retreat with him in Washington, D .C. in early
1984. It was kind of life -changing. Father Charlie
McCarthy is a priest. of one of the Eastern Catholic
churches, so the Byzantine Melkite Rite, which
is, of course, in communion with the Bishop of
Rome. He has been a Catholic priest, therefore,
for 40 years. ordained on August 9th, 1981 in
Damascus, Syria. He received his bachelor of
arts degree with majors in philosophy and English
from the University of Notre Dame in 1962, and
then went on to get masters in English and in
theology at Notre Dame. And then he earned his
doctorate in jurisprudence from Boston College
Law School in 1967, and then was admitted to
the Massachusetts Bar. the practice of law. He
was married for 53 years to Mary Margaret, and
they have 13 children and 23 grandchildren. And
famously, thank God, I remember when their daughter,
Teresa Benedicta, named after Edith Stein, Sister
Teresa Benedicta, got very sick. We prayed for
her, and she was cured, and it's the official
miracle for the canonization of St. Edith Stein.
Charlie McCarthy taught then at the University
of Notre Dame, where he founded and was the original
director of the program for the study and practice
of nonviolent conflict resolution. He also helped
found Pax Christi along with Gordon Zahn. Eileen
Egan, Dorothy Day, and others. And for 25 years,
he served as a spiritual director and or rector
of St. Gregory the Theologian Byzantine Melkite
Catholic Seminary. But really, for me, Charlie's
been a teacher leading weekend retreats and speaking
at conferences all over the country and the world.
on the nonviolent Jesus for over 50 years. She's
been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. She's
the author of several books, such as The Nonviolent
Eucharist, Christian Just Worth Theory, The Logic
of Deceit, and The Stations of the Cross of Nonviolent
Love. Our friend... Walter Wink said that Charlie
McCarthy, quote, is the most powerful voice for
nonviolence in the world today. And I think you
can find other talks on YouTube or at emmanuelcharlesmccarthy
.org. Reverend Charlie McCarthy, welcome to the
Nonviolent Jesus podcast. Oh, John, I don't know
if you have any more time on your broadcast.
It's giving me that buildup. My heavens. There
you go. Yes. Charlie's coming to us from Boston.
You can hear his accent. But I remember hearing
you, Charlie. I was a young Jesuit novice, maybe
21 years old in Washington, D .C., and then I
got a privately published transcript of your
weekend retreat. Remember that, Notes? Mm -hmm.
I do. It became kind of a guidebook for my life
and work. I still have it today close near my
bed. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, the same little Xerox
thing, because I think you gave the clearest
presentation on nonviolence maybe ever. Because
you had, you brought, I mean, Gandhi and Dr.
King didn't get to think through a theology like
you did. So I want to dive right in, right at
the beginning, with your definition of our...
And your understanding of this clumsy word from
Gandhi and Dr. King, nonviolence. Tell us about
how you define it and what you think of nonviolence,
Charlie. Well, I'll tell you, John. Nonviolence
is almost a word without meaning today. And what
I mean by that is... A word that has indefinite
meanings has no meaning. So wherever you, you
know, as you say, I've been around the world
with this, and what I find is that what people
refer to as nonviolence is so many different
things, conflicting and somewhat, in some cases,
supplementary, but it's very, very difficult
to... to nail down, you know, exactly what it
is that people are talking about, which makes
the conversation on this subject very, very difficult,
if not impossible, because people are not talking
about the same content. So as far as I, by the
way, nonviolence is exactly, exactly in the same
category as a word as love is, you know, it has
so many meanings that what are people talking
about when they talk about. Love. My understanding,
John, of nonviolence is that nonviolence is an
adjective or an adverb. It is not a noun in the
Gospels. Nonviolence is the modifier of what
saves, which is love. Love modeled on Jesus.
Love exemplified by Jesus, love. Now, therefore,
when people ask me for a definition of nonviolence,
what I mean by it, I say, what I mean always
is nonviolent love as modeled by Jesus, which
means, modeled by Jesus in the gospel, which
means it's a nonviolent love. not just of my
family, not just of my next -door neighbor. It's
a nonviolent love of friends and enemies, regardless
of where they are or who they are. And I kind
of supplement that by saying the fact of the
matter is Jesus in the Gospels extends the word
neighbor, love of neighbor, that's in the Old
Testament. He extends it out to all human beings
who are sons and daughters of the Father. So
nonviolence is, for me, is nonviolent love of
friends and enemies in the model of Jesus in
the Gospels. So that's what I use to get started
and to talk about what I talk about. And therefore,
when I talk to people about nonviolence as a
theory or as practice, I find out from them what
they mean about it, but I tell them what I mean
about it, and then we dialogue on the difference.
And so, for example, you would hear a great many
people, I say, talk about that nonviolence includes
love. Well, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying
nonviolence... Non -violence is a modifier of
love. It is love. It is love. And therefore,
and therefore, model on Jesus, and therefore,
simply to say, simply to say, I'm doing non -violent
action. That may or may not hold for me, because
the question becomes, is that action that you're
doing, is it imbued with Christ -like love, nonviolent
love? Or is it just a way of doing secular civil
disobedience? And the reason for all this is,
and the reason for this kind of approach to it
is, that... that at least I, as a Catholic Christian,
and I am that, you know, as they say, I'm more
Catholic than the Pope, I, as a Catholic Christian,
really do believe that, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians
13, if I have all the eloquence of men or angels
and speak without love, I'm a gong boomer with
cymbal clashing. If I move mountains... Without
love will do me no good. If I give away all I
have piece by piece to the poor, even if I give
them my body to burn, but without love, it's
nothing at all. And people quote that, and I
go on to say with that, to give a cup of tea
without love is nothing at all. But the point
is, the word love, Paul is referring to, is referenced,
first of all, it's agape, not erosophilia. in
all cases, and it's referenced back to, of course,
the person of Jesus, which was everything for
Paul. So is it Christ -like love that is imbuing,
moving, motivating the particular action that
is called nonviolence? Or, if someone else wants
to say, this is nonviolent, without that, they
can do that. But for me... If the action is not
motivated and imbued with Christlike love, it
is not going to be effective in countering evil
and death and their multiplicity of manifestations
in this world. Wow, thank you so much, Charlie.
That's so profound and beautiful and helpful.
You might have heard my conversation with my
friend Dr. Cornel West recently, and I was talking
about nonviolence with him, and he said the same
thing right at the end. He said it's all about
love, and love is the key. So you have talked
about the nonviolent love of Jesus, as your definition,
and everything being imbued with Christlike love,
especially anything we might dare call public
nonviolent action. So I want to ask you more
about Jesus then, the nonviolent Jesus. And let
me put it this way. A big quote from me, which
I might have even gotten from you, was really
Merton's book. Gandhi insisted that Jesus was
totally nonviolent. Now that's a paraphrase,
but he called nonviolence par excellence. And
then he went on in another quote to say, The
only people who don't seem to know that Jesus
is nonviolent are Christians. And I've been trying
to carry on your work for almost 45 years now.
I met you and Daniel Berg and my teacher in the
same month, way back when. And in these last
years, I'm running the Beatitude Center with
Zoom programs and now the Nonviolent Jesus podcast.
And then I came and saw you last year because
I gave you my copy of my big new book, The Gospel
of Peace, a commentary on the Gospels from a
perspective of nonviolence. And I was trying
to teach, so this is where I'm going with it,
you can take this any way you want, that actually
everything in the four Gospels is total nonviolence,
universal love, universal compassion, universal
peace. These are all clumsy phrases to try to
unpack Christlike love. So tell us more your
thoughts about the nonviolent Jesus, the nonviolent
love of Jesus, and moving into kind of being
a channel of his Christlike nonviolent love,
things like that. Well, I'll tell you, John,
I think you're right. Everything in the Gospels
is just point -blankly directed at revealing
Jesus' nonviolent love. And the reason for that
is that Jesus is nonviolent because God is nonviolent,
because Jesus is the incarnation of God. Sometimes
we forget in the... hubbub of theology and church
politics and so forth and so on. Sometimes we
forget the gospel is about God. The gospel, the
good news is about God. The gospel is about God.
Now, that being said, the gospel is about God
himself telling us what God is. And therefore,
When Jesus becomes human, when God becomes human
in Jesus, put it that way, when God becomes human
in Jesus, his purpose is to show us, to reveal
to humanity what it can't see itself because
of that mystery we call the fall or original
sin. To reveal to us... How to love as God loves.
And that's what Jesus is doing on every page
of the Gospels. He is revealing to us how to
love as God loves. Why? Because God is love,
according to the Gospels. And because Jesus is
here, because he wants us. He wants us. To be
at one with God, with the Father, at one. He's
here for atonement, to make us at one with God.
And how does one enter into oneness with God,
who is love? By loving as God loves. By choosing
to love as God loves, one becomes God. So as
the early fathers of the church used to say,
God became human. so that human beings could
become God. That's a normal quote. In fact, I
believe it's in Vatican II, all sort of footnotes.
God became human, but when people, as I was nurtured,
nice Irish Catholic community in Boston, when
I thought of God, I thought of, I mean, real
power, ultimate power, power that could make
the universe and power that could destroy you.
So when we say God became man, God became human
so that human beings should become God, we're
not talking about the power. We're talking about
love. Love. That's God is love. It's is, I -S.
God is love. And Otheos Agape Estet. God is love.
And therefore, love became human. So that human
beings could become love. And how does that look?
How would human beings know that? Because they
would look at the words and the deeds and the
spirit of Jesus in the Gospels. If Jesus is not
revealing how to love as God loves. How to unite
oneself with God, in a oneness with God, for
all eternity by choosing to love in time. If
that's not what he's showing us on earth or on
the cross, then what's he doing here? So, my
sense of the thing is that I have never been
able to get beyond the fact that as a human being
now, just as a human being, that when the will
of God is known, what follows immediately from
that is an imperative to live it, to embrace
it, to follow it. Now, I'm not saying the will
of God is easy to know, but I'm saying when a
person knows the will of God, when it's now he
says this or she says this is the will of God,
then it behooves that person, it's imperative
upon that person to, at that point, begin to
live it. Not one second before does he or she
have to live it, but at that point, they do have
to live it. That is, when the will of God is
known, the creature is built into him or her
to know that at that point, they are to follow
the Creator's will for the creature. That being
the case, Jesus comes as the Messiah of Judaism
and as the Word of God incarnate. He comes and
he reveals, he communicates from God to humanity
the will of the Father. In fact, he's only here
to do the will of the Father, nothing but the
will of the Father. Even under the terrible conditions
of Gethsemane, he says, your will be done but
mine. He's here to communicate the will of the
Father. And what is that will? To love as God
loves. That's what he's showing us. That's what
he's showing us on every page of the Gospels.
And that's what he's showing us on the cross.
When he says, Father, forgive them for they know
not what they do. And he says to the thief on
the right, I promise you this day you'll be with
me in paradise, etc. He is loving as God loves,
even under the most horrendous of conditions.
Now, think about it. It seems to me, he found
the will of God. He searched for it, and he found
it. Just as a human being. The will of God was
to love as God loves. The will of the Father
was to love as the Father loves. And that's what
he did. Even in the Gethsemane, my heavens, the
armed servant, the high priest comes and Peter
cuts off his ear and Jesus heals the ear of the
man who is going to take him to his death. Not
out of a rule, not out of a law, but because
the man's in pain and to love the man at that
point. is what God wants them to do because that
man is a son or a daughter of God. So let me
give you an immediate, an immediate, right now,
this day and age, application of this. At least
in the circles that I enter into, there is a
real hatred of getting out. Because of what he
did. What he's doing. A real hatred. And all
kinds of things are being done by people, said
by people. Actions are being taken, etc., etc.
To try to stop him or to make it clear what he's
doing. Now, nonviolent love of friends and enemies
does not mean... that you have to stick your
head in the sand in the matter of truth and ignore
the fact that what Netanyahu is doing is wickedness.
It's wicked. But Benjamin Netanyahu is a son
of God as much as you and I are. He's broken
like you and I are. He deserves our love as much
as we want the love of other people. and of God.
And so, I haven't heard, at least in my world,
the worlds that I enter into, I haven't heard
a single person outside myself, and with a certain
amount of derision if I do it, say, well, let
us pray. Let us pray for the conversion of Netanyahu.
Let us pray for his eternal salvation. As an
old -time Jesuit, John, you know, A -M -D -G.
What we're about is for the greater honor and
glory of God, and what Ignatius put after that
was, and for the salvation of souls, which is
not said anymore. Yes, the salvation of souls.
He's a human being. Let's love him. Thank you.
That's really important, John, that what Jesus
does in Gethsemane. And on the cross, for loving
the enemies, my heavens, that's the model, the
ultimate model of what it means to love as God
loves, which means it's the ultimate model for
how we enter into an atoning of making one again,
communion with God forever. Thank you. Thank
you. So I want to have two other big questions
following up on what you've said. The first will
be about... what you call the imperative to live
it. Once we have some sense of the will of God
is to love universally like God does, well, then
we have imperatives. And then the second thing
I want to ask you to tell us more about love
your enemies, especially in light of the just
war theory and why. But first, let's talk about
what you said. You and I were teaching even right
this moment on the Nonviolent Jesus podcast that
Jesus' total nonviolence or in your world, the
fullness, the incarnation of universal nonviolent
love. And that's the will of God for every human
being. And therefore, there's an imperative to
change our lives now and start living that. How
can we do that? How can we help each other change?
And what would this look like for Christians
around the world if we started to do this nonviolent
love of Jesus? And for all the churches, what
would the, I mean, what would be some signs?
Where do you see this? How can we all start doing
this? Any thoughts like that, Charlie? Well,
yes, indeed. I mean, I think that the... The
ingredient, John, the human ingredient, but also
the divine ingredient that's missing that opens
this up to us is the novitating of our human
capacity for empathy. Jesus knows the man and
the God in the Gethsemane is suffering. He knows
the guy on the cross next to him is suffering,
etc., etc. Now, people may be... terrible enemies
to us. They may want to kill us. They may take
our jobs. They may just talk about us behind
our back and so forth and so on. But my enemy
is not the enemy of God. My enemy is still the
son or daughter, the beloved son or daughter
of the Father of all, who loves that person personally
and wants good and wants love too. to be spread
to him. So I'm the agent of that. Whether he's
an enemy of mine or not, when I'm in the presence
of that person, I'm an agent to bring that love
to that person. And by the way, technically speaking,
which means I'm an agent to bring the living
God to that person. So that if I don't bring
that love to that person, when I'm in his presence,
his or her presence, I'm depriving that person
of something of the presence of God. Therefore,
it is important, you know, to, first of all,
nurture the capacity for empathy beyond our family,
beyond our neighborhood, beyond our fellow Marines,
beyond our fellow firemen or cops, or beyond
our nation. to emphasize it, to nurture it from
the cradle in terms of being empathic towards
every human being. Now, the effect of that is,
John, is in the real world, every human being
is suffering. There is no one that is not suffering.
And therefore... Every human being that we come
in the presence of, we are capable, if we want
to recognize, that he or she, like us, like me
or you, is a suffering human being. And therefore,
to act accordingly, and that is to be loving.
It can be a word. It can be a smile. I've had
that happen. It can be anything, but it can be
the choice to love that human being at that time
as opposed, as opposed to laying more weight
on his shoulders, to hurting him. So that the
first thing that has to be done and should be
done through the church, absolutely should be
done through the church is nurturing. Once the
child is baptized is the nurturing, intense nurturing
of the capacity of universal empathy for all
people. and the desire to do something about
that. The second thing it seems to me the Church
has to do is that it becomes imperative to nurture
from the cradle the sense that God, in the person
of Jesus, is in me because, if I'm Christian,
is in me because he explicitly wants me to respond
in love to that person. That is, especially to
the person who is the enemy. Anyone can be, anyone
can respond in love and kindness and so forth
to their children or their wife or grandchildren.
But Jesus' particular uniting thing here, that
there really is, kind of at the heart and soul
of the nature of the divine love that Jesus communicates
is to love the one that does not love you, as
a matter of fact, that is hostile to you. Jean
Maillet, the fellow at Notre Dame who did the
five -volume series on Jesus, the Marginal Jew,
a masterpiece. Now, in his discussion of love
of enemies, I just make this point. He says,
no one, no one in the Western canon of literature,
no one in the Western canon of literature before
Jesus ever said the sentence, love your enemies.
It is authentic Jesus teaching. I think that's
rather extraordinary. It's amazing. So let me
ask you about that, and then we're going to have
to wrap it up for now, but I'm going to have,
I want you to. Keep coming on the program, okay,
Charlie? Sure, glad to do it, Josh. Several hundred
other questions for you. So I want you to unpack
a little of this phrase of love your enemies,
and I want to tell you a little bit about how
I pitch it, and you can tell me what you think
or what, you know, your take on it. I think three
things, and I'm recording the whole podcast on
what I call the sixth antithesis. You have heard
it said, you know. Love your countrymen, hate
your enemies. I say to you, love your enemies,
pray for your persecutors, then your sons and
daughters. So three things. Number one, it's
nation state language. So we're to be taught.
I think the call to universal love here is particularly
to love the people your nation state is targeted
for death. What do you think of that? Number
two, there are no exceptions. And that's what
I want you to say. Unfortunately, I even have
to ask you about the just war theory. He doesn't
say, however, if they're really bad and you meet
these seven conditions, bomb and kill them. I
remember giving a talk, Charlie, to a packed
church 20 years ago about Jesus and nonviolence
in Iraq. And this sweet lady stood up and said,
well, this is all great, John, but sometimes
you just got to kill somebody. She means Hitler
and Saddam and Osama. And I'm like, no, that's
the point. And then the third thing, so I'm talking
nation state, just war theory. And I remember
before I met you, I was on a retreat and I'm
going, yeah, okay, Jesus, I'll try. But why?
And I couldn't find anybody of the spiritual
directors to tell me why until I read Martin
Luther King's book. brilliant sermon on love
your enemies. And he says there, Jesus doesn't
say to do it because it's the good to be done.
Don't do it because it's the moral position and
the philosophical position to take. And don't
even love your enemies because it's the only
practical political solution, which is really
incredible. He says it's right there. Love your
enemies because then you're really sons and daughters
of the God. who lets the sun rise in the good
and the bad and the rain to fall in the just
and the unjust. In other words, it's the clearest
description of the nature of God. What do you
think? I think, John, first of all, with the
nationalism, there is a contradiction, deep and
permanently abiding between nationalism, and
Catholicism, small c. Which means universalism,
right? That's right. That's right. And the reason
the Catholic Church is the Catholic Church, and
the reason we say even in the creeds of the Orthodox,
same Nicene Creed, we even say one holy Catholic,
it does not mean Catholic institution, Roman
Catholic, it means Catholic universal. Jesus
comes for the salvation of all people. And therefore,
to nurture, and it's done in a lot of ways, to
nurture in the church, through Catholic schools,
through the mass, through all kinds of things,
a nationalism with Jesus as a support system
is not what Catholicism is. Catholicism is about
Jesus came to save all people. We don't know
if it's going to happen, but that has to be our
hope. In our prayer, in our life's work, the
salvation of all human beings. And what else
would we want? As human beings, we know we don't
like to suffer, and we certainly wouldn't like
to suffer for eternity. And therefore, why wouldn't
we want other human beings to be saved? Let me
give you an example here. It has become common,
at least around here in Boston. Very common.
It shouldn't be there. I don't know why it's
continuing. I know some bishops in the United
States have stopped it. But around here in Boston,
priests are continually ending Mass, and after
the Mass is ended, concluding it by saying the
St. Michael prayer. Now, I know the St. Michael
prayer. I was brought up, I was nurtured in saying
the St. Michael prayer. And then one day, and
I'm... By one day, I mean in my 20s. It hit me.
I can't ask God for this. Tell us what it is.
St. Michael prayer. And now, Prince, the heavenly
host, by divine power, drive into hell Satan
and all the other spirits who wander through
the world seeking the world. What in the name
of heaven, what human being? wants to send a
conscious being that can feel pain into eternal
pain. That's crazy. That's nuts. That's not what
God's love is. That is not a proper prayer. When
I say it, and the priest wants to, the pastor
wants to set it fast, I'll say bind. Bind Satan
and all the other, not drive into hell. But you
see, that's de -empathizing the fact that you're
harming people. And it's all right because you're
doing God's will. Same thing in the military
or whatever. Okay, let me, because we only have
a minute or two left, Charlie, but can you just,
a word about the just war theory as well? You
know, that's the way we rationalized national
war making. I'll give you a word about the just
war theory, Charlie. It's a boondoggle. It's
a logical, theological. philosophical boondoggle
because what it's doing is it's making an exception
to Jesus' absolute teachings of nonviolent love
of friends and enemies that Jesus didn't make
and that was inexistent hundreds of years before
Jesus. And here's the critical part, that it
is impossible to implement. It is impossible
to implement no war in the history of the world
ever. And no war can meet those standards of
Catholic just war theory. And I defy anyone.
I'm ready in any forum to meet with anyone that
would suggest to me that the standards of the
Catholic just war theory in bellow and I bellow
can be met in the actual operation of war. And
therefore I call it, I call it. I also call it
theology with a wink. It's as if, okay, we'll
say it's there. It is there. We say it's there.
It is there. And we will never reference the
actual words or the actual standards. We'll just
say it's there, and that'll be enough to send
our Catholic men and women over into the hands
of the king to go kill people. And it has nothing
to do with the Gospels. There's no exceptions.
There is. Jesus, it's phony Christian morality.
That's great. No way, shape, or form. It's a
contradiction of the teachings of Jesus. Look,
John, didn't Jesus know that there were ways
of justifying killing and self -defense with
violence and so forth? Of course he did, both
Jew and otherwise. But did he use them? No. Because
that wasn't the will of God. And he came to do
the will of God. And God made sure no such thing
ever appeared in the Gospels. Amen. That might
be a great note to end on right there. And we're
going to continue the conversation, okay, Charlie?
A couple of months from now. Oh, that's great,
John. Boy, it went by fast. I know. So let me
wrap up then. And we're just beginning to get
in the waters of... Nonviolent love of Jesus
with the great Reverend Charlie McCarthy. Thank
you so much, Charlie, for speaking with me today.
And thank you, friends, for listening to this
episode of the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. You
can hear more podcasts and find other upcoming
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