WEBVTT 00:00:15.789 --> 00:00:18.730 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:18.730 --> 00:00:21.329 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:21.329 --> 00:00:24.429 with my friend Art Laffin, longtime Catholic 00:00:24.429 --> 00:00:27.929 worker, author, and peace activist. This is a 00:00:27.929 --> 00:00:32.990 project of www .beatitudecenter .org, where you 00:00:32.990 --> 00:00:35.450 can find many other podcasts and regular Zoom 00:00:35.450 --> 00:00:39.229 programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and practicing 00:00:39.229 --> 00:00:42.450 nonviolence and working for a more just, more 00:00:42.450 --> 00:00:45.799 nonviolent world. So let's begin with a little 00:00:45.799 --> 00:00:48.560 prayer. So I invite all our listeners, wherever 00:00:48.560 --> 00:00:52.439 you are, just to take a deep breath and just 00:00:52.439 --> 00:00:57.240 to relax and go ahead and notice how you're feeling 00:00:57.240 --> 00:01:01.060 and center yourself again. And together, let's 00:01:01.060 --> 00:01:04.319 enter into the presence of the God of peace who 00:01:04.319 --> 00:01:08.200 loves you infinitely and personally and everyone. 00:01:08.959 --> 00:01:11.920 And let's welcome the nonviolent Jesus here with 00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:15.140 us. Just take a moment to ask for whatever graces 00:01:15.140 --> 00:01:18.200 you need to follow Jesus more faithfully and 00:01:18.200 --> 00:01:26.379 do God's will of peace and love. Beloved God 00:01:26.379 --> 00:01:28.920 of peace, thank you for all the blessings of 00:01:28.920 --> 00:01:32.340 life, love, and peace that you give us. Be with 00:01:32.340 --> 00:01:35.900 us now as we reflect together on your call to 00:01:35.900 --> 00:01:38.579 follow the nonviolent Jesus and work for a more 00:01:38.579 --> 00:01:41.670 nonviolent world. more just world. Bless us, 00:01:41.849 --> 00:01:45.310 inspire us, disarm us, strengthen us, and send 00:01:45.310 --> 00:01:48.469 us out to do your will and to do our part to 00:01:48.469 --> 00:01:52.329 help end poverty, war, racism, greed, injustice, 00:01:52.829 --> 00:01:56.230 fascism, nuclear weapons, and environmental destruction, 00:01:56.390 --> 00:01:59.609 that we might be your holy beatitude people, 00:01:59.829 --> 00:02:02.430 your holy peacemakers, and welcome your reign 00:02:02.430 --> 00:02:06.109 of universal love, nonviolence, and peace on 00:02:06.109 --> 00:02:10.039 earth. In Jesus' name, amen. It's a great pleasure 00:02:10.039 --> 00:02:12.759 to welcome my friend Art Laffin here today to 00:02:12.759 --> 00:02:15.560 the podcast, longtime peace activist, author, 00:02:15.719 --> 00:02:19.060 and Catholic worker. I first met Art the day 00:02:19.060 --> 00:02:22.919 I met Phil Berrigan in 1982. He's a longtime 00:02:22.919 --> 00:02:25.360 member of the Dorothy Day Catholic Worker in 00:02:25.360 --> 00:02:27.539 Washington, D .C., where I'm speaking to him 00:02:27.539 --> 00:02:31.050 at, where he lives with his wife and son. He's 00:02:31.050 --> 00:02:33.389 been active in the faith -based nonviolent movements 00:02:33.389 --> 00:02:36.310 for peace, social justice, disarmament, and human 00:02:36.310 --> 00:02:39.370 rights really all his life. He's been imprisoned 00:02:39.370 --> 00:02:42.870 many times and arrested many times for his involvement 00:02:42.870 --> 00:02:46.889 in nonviolent actions and two plowshares disarmament 00:02:46.889 --> 00:02:50.219 actions. And he's the author of a new edition 00:02:50.219 --> 00:02:52.620 of his beautiful book, The Risk of the Cross, 00:02:52.960 --> 00:02:55.680 Living Gospel Nonviolence in the Nuclear Age. 00:02:56.120 --> 00:02:59.259 He's co -editor of Swords into Plowshares, which 00:02:59.259 --> 00:03:02.620 kind of documents the plowshares movement, and 00:03:02.620 --> 00:03:05.039 co -editor of the new book of poetry by Anne 00:03:05.039 --> 00:03:08.680 Montgomery, our friend, called Arise and Witness, 00:03:08.960 --> 00:03:12.159 poems by sisters. Sister Ann Montgomery about 00:03:12.159 --> 00:03:15.500 faith, prison, war zones, and nonviolent resistance. 00:03:16.180 --> 00:03:18.699 Welcome, Art Laffin, to the Nonviolent Jesus 00:03:18.699 --> 00:03:24.460 Podcast. John, I'm so honored and humbled to 00:03:24.460 --> 00:03:27.590 be invited to be on your great... podcast and 00:03:27.590 --> 00:03:29.550 to be part of this great ministry that you're 00:03:29.550 --> 00:03:33.629 doing. Great. Thanks, Art. So how did you become 00:03:33.629 --> 00:03:36.810 Art Laffin? That's kind of my question. How did 00:03:36.810 --> 00:03:39.629 you first get involved with the Catholic Worker 00:03:39.629 --> 00:03:41.650 and with Peace Work? You were in Connecticut, 00:03:41.729 --> 00:03:44.110 and then you landed in Dorothy Day. But then 00:03:44.110 --> 00:03:49.050 the amazing thing, Art, is you've stayed with 00:03:49.050 --> 00:03:54.389 it since the 70s. And that's the key thing. Tell 00:03:54.389 --> 00:03:58.699 us about your journey. Well, thanks, Sean. It's 00:03:58.699 --> 00:04:02.680 really through God's amazing grace. I was 22 00:04:02.680 --> 00:04:07.379 years old, and I was led to hear and meet gospel 00:04:07.379 --> 00:04:12.219 -based peace and justice makers. In 1976, I heard 00:04:12.219 --> 00:04:15.699 Archbishop Downholder Camera from Brazil and 00:04:15.699 --> 00:04:17.879 Mother Teresa speak at the Eucharistic Congress. 00:04:18.639 --> 00:04:22.420 That same year, I attended the Catholic Peace 00:04:22.420 --> 00:04:25.339 Fellowship Conference where... I met Catholic 00:04:25.339 --> 00:04:28.339 pacifists and war resistors. And then I went 00:04:28.339 --> 00:04:30.740 off to play and coach basketball in Holland for 00:04:30.740 --> 00:04:34.939 a season. And it was during that time in Europe 00:04:34.939 --> 00:04:38.519 I was really rediscovering my faith and met some 00:04:38.519 --> 00:04:41.639 remarkable peacemakers. I actually had a chance 00:04:41.639 --> 00:04:45.319 to meet Dom Helder Camera and Marie Corrigan 00:04:45.319 --> 00:04:49.019 McGuire, a friend of ours, at a peace conference 00:04:49.019 --> 00:04:51.899 that was sponsored by Dom Helder in Northern 00:04:51.899 --> 00:04:55.939 Ireland. And I later met people like Lanza Del 00:04:55.939 --> 00:04:58.199 Vasto, the founder of the art community, as well 00:04:58.199 --> 00:05:03.100 as World War II COs at an international fellowship 00:05:03.100 --> 00:05:05.779 of reconciliation peace conference in England. 00:05:07.199 --> 00:05:12.379 So these and other experiences led me to prayerfully 00:05:12.379 --> 00:05:18.180 read the gospel and really see for myself that 00:05:18.180 --> 00:05:22.839 Jesus was commanding. and all followers of Jesus 00:05:22.839 --> 00:05:27.660 for all time to embrace his command of unconditional 00:05:27.660 --> 00:05:31.379 love, including our enemies, to put away the 00:05:31.379 --> 00:05:36.300 sword and to renounce all forms of violence and 00:05:36.300 --> 00:05:41.800 killing. And so upon my return from Europe to 00:05:41.800 --> 00:05:44.120 my hometown of Hartford, Connecticut, where I 00:05:44.120 --> 00:05:48.910 was raised, This is in 1977. I connected with 00:05:48.910 --> 00:05:51.550 draft resistors like John Bach, who introduced 00:05:51.550 --> 00:05:54.110 me to the Atlantic Life community. And then I 00:05:54.110 --> 00:05:59.069 met Phil and Dan Berrigan. I went to a protest 00:05:59.069 --> 00:06:01.490 at Electric Boat Shipyard in Groton, Connecticut, 00:06:01.490 --> 00:06:07.889 for the first time during the fall of 1977. And 00:06:07.889 --> 00:06:11.410 I saw the first Triton submarine being built 00:06:11.410 --> 00:06:14.689 with the Pentagon called the ultimate first strike 00:06:14.689 --> 00:06:20.790 weapon. And, John, I could not believe it. And 00:06:20.790 --> 00:06:24.829 my first question was, where is the church? And 00:06:24.829 --> 00:06:28.269 the institutional church was virtually silent. 00:06:28.529 --> 00:06:31.250 There were only a handful of peacemakers that 00:06:31.250 --> 00:06:35.470 were really committed to trying to stop the Trident 00:06:35.470 --> 00:06:38.889 program. And so I asked the question, what would 00:06:38.889 --> 00:06:45.629 Jesus have me do? And so. In 1978, I helped form 00:06:45.629 --> 00:06:47.769 with Dean Hammer the Covenant Peace Community 00:06:47.769 --> 00:06:51.509 in New Haven with a main focus on working with 00:06:51.509 --> 00:06:54.029 others to nonviolently resist the Trident Program 00:06:54.029 --> 00:06:58.370 and to call for economic conversion of electric 00:06:58.370 --> 00:07:02.069 boats and non -military production. And then 00:07:02.069 --> 00:07:05.329 in the spring of 78, I met Dorothy Day for the 00:07:05.329 --> 00:07:08.730 first time. at a mass at Mary House Catholic 00:07:08.730 --> 00:07:12.129 Worker in New York City, which made a lasting 00:07:12.129 --> 00:07:16.790 impression on me. There was Dorothy in prayer. 00:07:16.970 --> 00:07:20.449 That's my first image of her in prayer at the 00:07:20.449 --> 00:07:24.250 Eucharist. And where would we be without Dorothy 00:07:24.250 --> 00:07:27.509 Day's exemplary gospel witness and commitment 00:07:27.509 --> 00:07:32.810 to nonviolence? You just think about how she 00:07:32.810 --> 00:07:36.939 influenced Dan and Phil Berrigan. Thomas Merton, 00:07:37.120 --> 00:07:41.720 several generations of peacemakers, including 00:07:41.720 --> 00:07:47.639 you and me. I also met during that time the Habakkusha 00:07:47.639 --> 00:07:49.980 A -bomb survivors who had come to New York City 00:07:49.980 --> 00:07:53.939 to attend the first UN special session on disarmament, 00:07:53.980 --> 00:07:58.620 and they had a very deep impact on me. I fasted 00:07:58.620 --> 00:08:04.920 during this 37 -day UN session. to repent from 00:08:04.920 --> 00:08:08.660 my own complicity in the arms race. And my first 00:08:08.660 --> 00:08:11.279 arrest was at the conclusion of this UN conference 00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:15.800 on disarmament. On June 12th, at the US mission 00:08:15.800 --> 00:08:19.319 to the UN, were hundreds of peacemakers who were 00:08:19.319 --> 00:08:23.920 arrested, called on the United States to disarm 00:08:23.920 --> 00:08:28.680 and abolish its nuclear arsenal. The Covenant 00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:33.000 Peace Community... It disbanded in 1983, and 00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:35.220 then Elmer Moss and I formed the Isaiah Peace 00:08:35.220 --> 00:08:40.679 Ministry in New Haven. And in 1990, after being 00:08:40.679 --> 00:08:43.500 released from prison for the Thames River Plowshares 00:08:43.500 --> 00:08:46.879 action, I moved to Washington, D .C. to be part 00:08:46.879 --> 00:08:49.639 of the Catholic Worker. That's a great story. 00:08:49.759 --> 00:08:52.480 So tell me about life at the Dorothy Day Catholic 00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:56.440 Worker over these last 35 years and your ministry 00:08:56.440 --> 00:08:59.870 there. Well, yeah. Well, really more than that, 00:08:59.889 --> 00:09:03.909 of course. Yeah. So Dorothy Day Catholic Worker 00:09:03.909 --> 00:09:08.169 House was established in 1981 by our good friend, 00:09:08.309 --> 00:09:13.610 Father Dick McSorley, who died in 2002. And the 00:09:13.610 --> 00:09:16.970 focus of the house has been to provide hospitality 00:09:16.970 --> 00:09:22.269 to formerly unhoused families and advocate for 00:09:22.269 --> 00:09:24.690 gospel, nonviolence, peace and social justice. 00:09:26.120 --> 00:09:30.740 And since its inception, numerous families have 00:09:30.740 --> 00:09:34.100 been assisted. On Wednesdays, there's a food 00:09:34.100 --> 00:09:37.159 giveaway. On Thursdays, there's a feast on the 00:09:37.159 --> 00:09:41.019 street with Our Lady Queen of Peace Church in 00:09:41.019 --> 00:09:44.419 Arlington now taking the lead. There's monthly 00:09:44.419 --> 00:09:48.019 clarification of thought meetings. There are 00:09:48.019 --> 00:09:50.220 weekly peace vigils at the Pentagon and White 00:09:50.220 --> 00:09:53.200 House, and we participate in numerous other nonviolent 00:09:53.200 --> 00:09:56.759 actions for peace and social justice. including 00:09:56.759 --> 00:10:00.600 now trying with other faith activists to stop 00:10:00.600 --> 00:10:03.379 the criminal U .S.-backed Israeli genocide war 00:10:03.379 --> 00:10:07.179 in Gaza and the current immoral budget bill, 00:10:07.299 --> 00:10:11.059 which not only give huge tax breaks to the rich 00:10:11.059 --> 00:10:13.580 while massively cutting Medicaid and programs 00:10:13.580 --> 00:10:16.360 helping the poor, but would also increase the 00:10:16.360 --> 00:10:19.759 Pentagon budget to a trillion dollars. Unbelievable. 00:10:22.090 --> 00:10:25.090 So there are three of us full -time Catholic 00:10:25.090 --> 00:10:28.750 workers now at the house. We just recently lost 00:10:28.750 --> 00:10:32.730 Michael Walley, presente. And we're blessed to 00:10:32.730 --> 00:10:38.250 have an amazing extended support community. And 00:10:38.250 --> 00:10:40.929 I thank God for all the Catholic workers and 00:10:40.929 --> 00:10:43.230 families who have lived at Dorothy Day House 00:10:43.230 --> 00:10:52.409 since I've been involved here and before. know, 00:10:52.490 --> 00:10:54.509 and you've already mentioned our great, great 00:10:54.509 --> 00:10:58.049 teachers and mentors who became our friends and 00:10:58.049 --> 00:11:00.090 who changed our lives. I wondered if you could 00:11:00.090 --> 00:11:02.490 say a word about a lesson you learned from each 00:11:02.490 --> 00:11:05.610 of them. Father Richard McSorley, who's not that 00:11:05.610 --> 00:11:08.710 well known outside of D .C., the Jesuit, taught 00:11:08.710 --> 00:11:12.269 at Georgetown, but was totally anti -war and 00:11:12.269 --> 00:11:14.950 a friend of the Kennedys and Dr. King. And then, 00:11:14.970 --> 00:11:17.610 of course, Daniel and Philip Berrigan. Maybe 00:11:17.610 --> 00:11:20.610 a personal lesson or anecdote from each of them. 00:11:21.080 --> 00:11:26.940 Yeah, well, as you mentioned, I mean, they were 00:11:26.940 --> 00:11:29.899 all mentors to me and great prophets of peace. 00:11:30.779 --> 00:11:35.100 They were all doers of the word who really led 00:11:35.100 --> 00:11:38.740 by example. They made the word flesh. They never 00:11:38.740 --> 00:11:45.759 gave up. They kept their eyes on the prize. Dick 00:11:45.759 --> 00:11:48.500 was, Father Dick McSorley was a great teacher 00:11:48.500 --> 00:11:53.120 of gospel nonviolence. His article, It's a Sin 00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:56.679 to Build a Nuclear Weapon, and his book, The 00:11:56.679 --> 00:12:00.019 New Testament Basis of Peacemaking, are must 00:12:00.019 --> 00:12:03.539 -reads for all followers of Jesus and peacemakers 00:12:03.539 --> 00:12:06.299 today. Those are two books that had a great influence 00:12:06.299 --> 00:12:15.080 on me. Yeah, me too. And then Phil had this courageous 00:12:15.080 --> 00:12:22.980 faith. And he would always say, faith is the 00:12:22.980 --> 00:12:25.799 antidote to fear. Don't get paralyzed by your 00:12:25.799 --> 00:12:32.480 faith. And I would commend to everybody listening 00:12:32.480 --> 00:12:36.259 a new book of Phil's writings, A Ministry of 00:12:36.259 --> 00:12:40.860 Risk, that was edited by Brad Wolf. Phil spent 00:12:40.860 --> 00:12:45.840 over 10 years in prison for resisting a war -making 00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:49.529 empire. And one of the last things he was advocating 00:12:49.529 --> 00:12:56.950 before he died was a national strike. And that's 00:12:56.950 --> 00:13:04.169 certainly needed right now. And for Dan, Dan 00:13:04.169 --> 00:13:10.250 had this steadfast faithfulness like Phil. And 00:13:10.250 --> 00:13:17.980 he practiced an ethic of resurrection. In a time 00:13:17.980 --> 00:13:22.480 when genocide has become normalized and in light 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:26.480 of the empire's present reign of terror, I feel 00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:29.700 like every day we're witnessing the crucifixion 00:13:29.700 --> 00:13:33.139 on so many levels in our world. And where do 00:13:33.139 --> 00:13:37.200 we find hope? And I find Dan's ethic of resurrection 00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:41.039 very helpful, especially when he says, and I 00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:44.659 have to just quote this real quick. He says, 00:13:45.679 --> 00:13:48.559 We've yet to experience resurrection, which I 00:13:48.559 --> 00:13:54.519 translate the hope that hope's on. For us, all 00:13:54.519 --> 00:13:57.759 of these repeated arrests, the interminable jailings, 00:13:57.840 --> 00:14:01.179 the life of our small communities, the discipline 00:14:01.179 --> 00:14:05.179 of nonviolence, these have embodied an ethic 00:14:05.179 --> 00:14:09.480 of resurrection. Simply put, we long to taste 00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:12.379 that event. We want to test the resurrection 00:14:12.379 --> 00:14:16.529 in our bones. to see if we might live in hope 00:14:16.529 --> 00:14:20.470 instead of in the thicket of cultural despair, 00:14:20.769 --> 00:14:24.629 nuclear despair, a world of perpetual war. We 00:14:24.629 --> 00:14:28.090 want to taste the resurrection. May I say we 00:14:28.090 --> 00:14:31.710 have not been disappointed. What a great quote, 00:14:31.889 --> 00:14:35.789 Mike. So this is Dan's ethic of resurrection, 00:14:36.070 --> 00:14:39.549 and it's the daily challenge for me and all of 00:14:39.549 --> 00:14:42.309 us to cultivate and practice this ethic of resurrection. 00:14:42.649 --> 00:14:45.129 Resurrection hope. I'm so glad you read that, 00:14:45.129 --> 00:14:53.370 Art. That's from the very last page of my writings 00:14:53.370 --> 00:14:55.870 of Daniel Berrigan called Daniel Berrigan Essential 00:14:55.870 --> 00:14:59.049 Writings. And I don't know if you know the story 00:14:59.049 --> 00:15:04.789 about that. In 1983, he was ordered to give a 00:15:04.789 --> 00:15:09.190 speech to 800 Jesuits to debate nuclear weapons 00:15:09.190 --> 00:15:12.779 by one of the leading generals. And he said, 00:15:12.820 --> 00:15:14.279 no, I'm not going to do it. Why are you having 00:15:14.279 --> 00:15:19.779 a general? And sure enough, he had to do it. 00:15:19.899 --> 00:15:23.519 So he gets up there. So the general got up there 00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:25.559 and said, hey, you guys are great. These are 00:15:25.559 --> 00:15:29.039 all priests. But just leave everything to us. 00:15:29.299 --> 00:15:33.039 We'll take care of everything. And he got a standing 00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:36.960 ovation. And then Dan stood up and gave. I think 00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:39.019 the most brilliant speech of his life, which 00:15:39.019 --> 00:15:42.960 I had saved and found in 1983. It's not published 00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:45.919 anywhere else. And that's where he says, what 00:15:45.919 --> 00:15:48.759 you just quoted, after this incredible testimony, 00:15:49.299 --> 00:15:52.399 you know, I don't want to go to jail, but what 00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:54.980 we're trying to do here is practice resurrection. 00:15:55.620 --> 00:15:58.820 And we want to taste the resurrection. And the 00:15:58.820 --> 00:16:02.879 last sentence, may I say, we've not been disappointed. 00:16:03.279 --> 00:16:07.470 What a thing to say. And no one, he walked away 00:16:07.470 --> 00:16:11.470 from the podium and no one said anything. And 00:16:11.470 --> 00:16:13.529 that was the end of the conference. He was totally 00:16:13.529 --> 00:16:16.710 ignored by the other Jesuits. He was a great 00:16:16.710 --> 00:16:19.110 saint and prophet. Now, another one that you 00:16:19.110 --> 00:16:21.809 knew, our other friend, but not quite like Dan, 00:16:21.970 --> 00:16:25.409 is the great spiritual writer, Henry Nowen, whom 00:16:25.409 --> 00:16:27.490 you brought with you when you were living in 00:16:27.490 --> 00:16:29.980 Connecticut while he was teaching at Yale. to 00:16:29.980 --> 00:16:33.019 a Good Friday peace witness. And I remember, 00:16:33.059 --> 00:16:38.679 Art, when Henry died, we drove from D .C. all 00:16:38.679 --> 00:16:41.139 the way to Toronto together to be at his funeral. 00:16:41.259 --> 00:16:43.679 It was one of the most memorable events of my 00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:45.580 life because there were thousands of people there. 00:16:45.799 --> 00:16:48.399 We did the Prayers of the Faithful with Fred 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:51.120 Rogers. Tell me a thought or two or a lesson 00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:57.059 or two that you learned from Henry Nouwen. Well, 00:16:57.100 --> 00:17:01.500 thanks for... sharing that story about Dan. And 00:17:01.500 --> 00:17:07.460 so, you know, Henry, I was, I was blessed really 00:17:07.460 --> 00:17:13.059 to know Henry as a friend and he supported me 00:17:13.059 --> 00:17:18.059 in my, my ministry. And he sent me books when 00:17:18.059 --> 00:17:24.000 I was in jail. I, I attended a Eucharist with 00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:27.480 him on many occasions when he was teaching at 00:17:27.799 --> 00:17:31.259 Yale Divinity School, and he regularly used to 00:17:31.259 --> 00:17:34.759 celebrate Eucharist with us at the Covenant Peace 00:17:34.759 --> 00:17:39.200 Community. And Henry would put his heart and 00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:42.920 soul into celebrating the Eucharist. I'd never 00:17:42.920 --> 00:17:45.539 been part of a Eucharist that would be more moving 00:17:45.539 --> 00:17:50.240 than when Henry was celebrating. And he taught 00:17:50.240 --> 00:17:55.200 me and so many the centrality of living a Eucharistic 00:17:55.200 --> 00:17:59.789 life. a life of thanksgiving and gratitude, where 00:17:59.789 --> 00:18:03.809 we followed Jesus wherever he would lead us, 00:18:03.869 --> 00:18:09.609 even to places we'd rather not go. And he was 00:18:09.609 --> 00:18:13.930 adamant about the need to cultivate a spiritual 00:18:13.930 --> 00:18:17.869 foundation for our lives so that we can be sustained 00:18:17.869 --> 00:18:22.809 in our ministry, in my case, service and activism. 00:18:23.450 --> 00:18:26.410 And so he was always emphasizing that. And like 00:18:26.410 --> 00:18:31.190 Merton, he emphasized this reciprocal relationship 00:18:31.190 --> 00:18:37.970 between prayer and action. And so in 1985, at 00:18:37.970 --> 00:18:43.950 the invitation of Yale Divinity School students 00:18:43.950 --> 00:18:46.089 who were part of this disarming group that Dean 00:18:46.089 --> 00:18:49.609 Hammer and I were working with, we asked Henry 00:18:49.609 --> 00:18:53.569 to lead the Stations of the Cross. on Good Friday 00:18:53.569 --> 00:18:57.329 at Electric Boat Shipyard. And this was an annual 00:18:57.329 --> 00:19:00.069 witness our community would sponsor every year. 00:19:01.089 --> 00:19:04.529 And it was the first time Henry ever did something 00:19:04.529 --> 00:19:08.750 like this. And it made a profound impact on him. 00:19:08.829 --> 00:19:13.250 Yeah, yeah. And I would, John, I hope you don't 00:19:13.250 --> 00:19:15.750 mind. I want to commend to everybody listening 00:19:15.750 --> 00:19:20.480 to read the excellent book. that you did on henry's 00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:23.720 peacemaking journey the road to peace yeah because 00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:27.039 there's so much in there about henry's life and 00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:33.720 journey including uh his experience uh that i 00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:36.559 just mentioned yeah and that's dedicated to you 00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:38.460 art i don't even know if you remember well thank 00:19:38.460 --> 00:19:41.960 you i'm i'm i'm unworthy brother and humbled 00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:44.480 and humbled remember i found when i was going 00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:46.599 through his archives this was i started at the 00:19:46.599 --> 00:19:51.930 month after he died I found his journal from 00:19:51.930 --> 00:19:56.029 Selma that was published in the Netherlands in 00:19:56.029 --> 00:19:59.250 Dutch. And I had it translated. And to this day, 00:19:59.250 --> 00:20:01.369 I think it's the best thing ever written about 00:20:01.369 --> 00:20:04.890 Selma. I mean, imagine Henry Nouwen writing about 00:20:04.890 --> 00:20:07.829 Selma. For the listeners, I don't know if you 00:20:07.829 --> 00:20:11.450 just heard Art say a moment ago, yes, and we 00:20:11.450 --> 00:20:13.809 do a weekly vigil at the White House and the 00:20:13.809 --> 00:20:16.890 Pentagon. Now, let's just pause there for a moment. 00:20:17.740 --> 00:20:20.400 All the stuff Art has been doing, he's serving 00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:23.339 the poor and writing and speaking and organizing. 00:20:24.740 --> 00:20:28.920 Every week, he's at the Pentagon for decades 00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:31.579 now with friends and then at the White House. 00:20:31.619 --> 00:20:33.940 But living in D .C. now, it's almost a daily 00:20:33.940 --> 00:20:36.420 thing. So I want to ask you about that, Art. 00:20:36.819 --> 00:20:39.819 So you've said to me that the Catholic worker 00:20:39.819 --> 00:20:42.940 in D .C. has been at the Pentagon every week 00:20:42.940 --> 00:20:48.809 since 1987. And with a vigil. But I know that 00:20:48.809 --> 00:20:51.509 with Jonah House, with Phil, it's been going 00:20:51.509 --> 00:20:54.670 on even since the 70s. What's that like? And 00:20:54.670 --> 00:20:57.630 what do you do? And how have you noticed any 00:20:57.630 --> 00:21:01.670 changes over the decades? And I presume it's 00:21:01.670 --> 00:21:04.329 a prayer experience, ultimately, to keep going 00:21:04.329 --> 00:21:09.809 through with that. Sure, sure. Jonah House, you 00:21:09.809 --> 00:21:15.289 know, laid the groundwork. I went to one of their 00:21:15.289 --> 00:21:21.470 summer sessions back in 1979 and had a great 00:21:21.470 --> 00:21:24.109 impact on me. And thank God for the Jonah House 00:21:24.109 --> 00:21:28.829 community. And everybody's been part of it. Phil 00:21:28.829 --> 00:21:33.049 and Liz and their beautiful children and all 00:21:33.049 --> 00:21:36.710 the great people that we've known throughout 00:21:36.710 --> 00:21:42.130 these decades. Really, the witness grew out of 00:21:42.130 --> 00:21:44.750 the Jonah House and Atlantic Life community, 00:21:44.930 --> 00:21:50.990 and there have been numerous arrest actions and 00:21:50.990 --> 00:21:56.369 vigils since the early 1970s when Jonah House 00:21:56.369 --> 00:22:00.789 began doing resistance there. Certainly, there 00:22:00.789 --> 00:22:02.930 have been other actions prior to that, but Jonah 00:22:02.930 --> 00:22:05.670 House really had a faith -based focus on resistance 00:22:05.670 --> 00:22:14.420 to the Pentagon. Now, where we once could witness 00:22:14.420 --> 00:22:17.579 anywhere on the Pentagon grounds, we're now only 00:22:17.579 --> 00:22:21.380 permitted to be in a very small space and stand 00:22:21.380 --> 00:22:25.599 behind a brand new fence that was built especially 00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:29.099 for us. And if we go outside that fence to hold 00:22:29.099 --> 00:22:34.490 a banner or sign, we're subject to arrest. So 00:22:34.490 --> 00:22:37.009 several of us from the Dorothy Day Catholic Worker 00:22:37.009 --> 00:22:40.150 and Friends of the Community hold a weekly peace 00:22:40.150 --> 00:22:43.009 vigil at the center of war making on the planet. 00:22:43.289 --> 00:22:47.950 Every Monday when it's a holiday, we go on Tuesday. 00:22:48.890 --> 00:22:52.730 And there are three larger faith and resistance 00:22:52.730 --> 00:22:57.609 witnesses every August 6th to 9th time, Good 00:22:57.609 --> 00:23:01.660 Friday and December 28th to commemorate. the 00:23:01.660 --> 00:23:04.000 massacre of the Holy Innocents past and present. 00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:09.500 And so we do our best to be a witness to the 00:23:09.500 --> 00:23:13.259 gospel of nonviolence, to advocate for all victims 00:23:13.259 --> 00:23:17.960 of war and injustice, to call for the abolition 00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:22.140 of all weapons in war, appeal to soldiers to 00:23:22.140 --> 00:23:24.960 refuse to kill and become conscientious objectors. 00:23:25.900 --> 00:23:29.119 And all workers to leave their jobs and to work 00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:32.779 for the conversion of our war economy to one 00:23:32.779 --> 00:23:36.240 centered on peace and meeting urgent human needs. 00:23:36.299 --> 00:23:40.839 Amen, Art. Amen. And people say, John, people 00:23:40.839 --> 00:23:43.319 say to us, you're such a small group. What good 00:23:43.319 --> 00:23:46.940 does it do? And I say, what happens if we're 00:23:46.940 --> 00:23:51.000 not there? People will never think about a nonviolent 00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:56.190 alternative. And we know. People have been affected 00:23:56.190 --> 00:24:00.549 by acts of public witness at the Pentagon, like 00:24:00.549 --> 00:24:06.410 Dan Ellsberg and General Lee Butler. And there 00:24:06.410 --> 00:24:08.049 have been people who have come up and talked 00:24:08.049 --> 00:24:11.509 to us over time, you know, and very thoughtfully. 00:24:11.630 --> 00:24:15.630 And some people, you know, have come by and said, 00:24:15.690 --> 00:24:19.490 thank you, you know. And sometimes we get cursed 00:24:19.490 --> 00:24:23.880 at and everything in between. But I view this 00:24:23.880 --> 00:24:28.720 weekly vigil as a prayer of intercession. And 00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:31.000 we leave the rest in God's hands. Well, thank 00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:34.480 you. You've also participated in two plowshares 00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:37.279 disarmament actions and spent a lot of time in 00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:41.799 prison. And there have been over 100 plowshares 00:24:41.799 --> 00:24:44.980 disarmament actions. I did one in 1983. Since 00:24:44.980 --> 00:24:49.269 the first one in 1980 with the Berrigans. But 00:24:49.269 --> 00:24:51.950 you chronicled them and you wrote a book about 00:24:51.950 --> 00:24:54.430 the history of them, which was very helpful. 00:24:54.710 --> 00:24:58.190 Could you just say a brief word about the Plowshares 00:24:58.190 --> 00:25:01.289 movement in general and your own experience with 00:25:01.289 --> 00:25:07.089 it and what happened to you? Sure, sure. Well, 00:25:07.390 --> 00:25:11.750 the Plowshares Aid Action in 1980 at General 00:25:11.750 --> 00:25:14.809 Electric in King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, was 00:25:14.809 --> 00:25:17.490 a watershed moment, just like the Catonsville 00:25:17.490 --> 00:25:25.500 Nine Action. And our eight friends engaged in 00:25:25.500 --> 00:25:29.200 a symbolic action in flushing the biblical prophecy 00:25:29.200 --> 00:25:31.779 of beating swords into plowshares by hammering 00:25:31.779 --> 00:25:35.519 on components of the Minuteman III nuclear missile 00:25:35.519 --> 00:25:41.670 that were manufactured there at GE. They were 00:25:41.670 --> 00:25:44.869 subsequently arrested and tried by a jury, and 00:25:44.869 --> 00:25:47.710 all were convicted and sentenced to prison terms 00:25:47.710 --> 00:25:51.329 ranging from 18 months to 10 years. And then 00:25:51.329 --> 00:25:54.849 the appeal process lasted a decade, and they 00:25:54.849 --> 00:25:58.849 were resentenced and time served. Yeah, 17 months 00:25:58.849 --> 00:26:01.869 was the longest sentence that Elmer Moss served. 00:26:02.170 --> 00:26:08.029 But, you know, John, these actions have been 00:26:08.029 --> 00:26:14.740 inspired. By God's amazing grace. And over 200 00:26:14.740 --> 00:26:17.819 people from a variety of backgrounds have experienced, 00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:25.500 have been part of these plowshares actions. 58 00:26:25.500 --> 00:26:27.720 of the actions have taken place in the U .S. 00:26:27.720 --> 00:26:33.559 43 have been international. And 21 of the actions 00:26:33.559 --> 00:26:35.880 were directed at the First Strike Trident Submarine 00:26:35.880 --> 00:26:39.119 Program. And I was part of two of those actions. 00:26:40.039 --> 00:26:48.039 And just to say that Phil was very keen on emphasizing 00:26:48.039 --> 00:26:52.519 that we try to disarm ourselves by disarming 00:26:52.519 --> 00:26:55.019 the weapons. There is this reciprocal process 00:26:55.019 --> 00:26:59.000 between disarmament of the heart and of the weapons. 00:26:59.740 --> 00:27:03.900 And so the intent of all these actions have always 00:27:03.900 --> 00:27:07.759 been to uphold God's law. shall not kill and 00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:10.200 enforce international laws that prohibit crimes 00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:16.380 against humanity. And so I believe that miracles 00:27:16.380 --> 00:27:19.960 have occurred in actions that I and we've been 00:27:19.960 --> 00:27:25.200 part of. So how could we ever get on board a 00:27:25.200 --> 00:27:28.480 Trident submarine? John, how could we do it? 00:27:29.319 --> 00:27:34.519 And in the Thames River Plowshares action, we 00:27:34.519 --> 00:27:37.039 were able to get to the Trident. the 10th Trident 00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:43.839 Submarine and hammer and pour blood on it. And 00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:50.180 I just had this belief that all things are possible 00:27:50.180 --> 00:27:56.000 if we act with the belief that God can work miracles 00:27:56.000 --> 00:28:00.660 through us. And so, you know, there were armed 00:28:00.660 --> 00:28:05.849 guards on the adjoining pier overlooking. where 00:28:05.849 --> 00:28:10.230 the Trident was ported and docked. And three 00:28:10.230 --> 00:28:12.890 of us were able to climb on top of that submarine 00:28:12.890 --> 00:28:19.069 and read the entire 15th chapter of John's Gospel, 00:28:19.210 --> 00:28:24.589 I am the vine, you are the branches. And so we're 00:28:24.589 --> 00:28:28.930 eventually, MPs came and they told us to leave. 00:28:30.079 --> 00:28:33.059 Meanwhile, there were people, two of our community, 00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:36.640 hammering from the water on the side of the Trident. 00:28:37.779 --> 00:28:45.660 And so anyway, we were all apprehended and given 00:28:45.660 --> 00:28:51.759 prison sentences after trial. So my feeling is 00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:56.079 that these actions have been what Gandhi called 00:28:56.079 --> 00:29:04.240 experiments in truth. And I really believe, I 00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:08.240 believe then as I do now, that if people have 00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:10.660 the faith to believe that disarmament is possible 00:29:10.660 --> 00:29:14.200 and act on that faith, it can happen. And we've 00:29:14.200 --> 00:29:16.259 seen it happen. We've been part of the process 00:29:16.259 --> 00:29:20.500 to make it happen one dent at a time. Amen, brother. 00:29:20.700 --> 00:29:25.660 So this August marks the 80th anniversary of 00:29:25.660 --> 00:29:29.359 the U .S. atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. 00:29:30.519 --> 00:29:34.960 I just had Frida Berrigan from Jonah House originally 00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:37.880 on our podcast here. Yeah, and she was talking 00:29:37.880 --> 00:29:40.339 about it. You know, my thought is there needs 00:29:40.339 --> 00:29:44.519 to be organized vigils and nonviolent civil disobedience 00:29:44.519 --> 00:29:47.099 at every nuclear weapons installation and plant 00:29:47.099 --> 00:29:50.279 across the country calling for the abolition 00:29:50.279 --> 00:29:52.240 of nuclear weapons. Give us a word about what 00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:56.119 you think people can do to mark the... 80th anniversary 00:29:56.119 --> 00:29:59.599 of Hiroshima coming up this August, August 6th? 00:30:00.140 --> 00:30:02.539 Well, I would concur with everything you just 00:30:02.539 --> 00:30:04.660 said, and we'll have a witness at the Pentagon 00:30:04.660 --> 00:30:08.880 and at the White House. And I invite anybody 00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:13.880 in the DMV area to join us who's listening. John, 00:30:14.039 --> 00:30:16.420 the U .S. government has never apologized for 00:30:16.420 --> 00:30:19.099 this unspeakable crime of using nuclear weapons 00:30:19.099 --> 00:30:23.720 that began the nuclear age. And so on August 00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:26.859 6, 2016, during a prayer service of repentance 00:30:26.859 --> 00:30:30.319 and witness to commemorate the atomic bombings 00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:33.559 of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and to call for nuclear 00:30:33.559 --> 00:30:37.500 abolition in front of the White House, an apology 00:30:37.500 --> 00:30:40.980 petition was read and presented to a Hiroshima 00:30:40.980 --> 00:30:45.160 survivor. And our Dorothy Day Catholic worker 00:30:45.160 --> 00:30:49.039 and Pax Christi were among the co -sponsors of 00:30:49.039 --> 00:30:53.039 this witness. We had over 700 people sign the 00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:59.599 petition. And then in September 2016, Mr. Mamaki, 00:30:59.779 --> 00:31:03.980 who is a survivor from Hiroshima, he delivered 00:31:03.980 --> 00:31:07.720 the petition to the mayor of Hiroshima. And later, 00:31:07.900 --> 00:31:10.000 I understand, it was presented to the Hiroshima 00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:14.779 Peace Museum. And to mark the 75th anniversary 00:31:14.779 --> 00:31:19.740 of the bombings, we updated the petition. 240 00:31:19.740 --> 00:31:22.940 people signed it, and it was sent to and received 00:31:22.940 --> 00:31:27.279 by the mayors of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Nihon 00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:31.740 Hidemiko, the main A -bomb survivors organization, 00:31:32.200 --> 00:31:35.960 who this past year received the Nobel Peace Prize. 00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:42.960 And so this petition was really the fruit of 00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:45.740 years of public witness by nuclear abolitionists. 00:31:47.210 --> 00:31:51.710 met and were inspired by the Hibakusha. And Scott 00:31:51.710 --> 00:31:55.890 Wright and I prepared the petition. And we're 00:31:55.890 --> 00:31:57.990 doing it again. We're updating it. We're going 00:31:57.990 --> 00:32:02.690 to be circulating it to correspond with the acts 00:32:02.690 --> 00:32:05.130 of nonviolent witness that will be taking place. 00:32:05.490 --> 00:32:09.869 Where can people find it? And so details are 00:32:09.869 --> 00:32:14.730 forthcoming on that. But we need now more than 00:32:14.730 --> 00:32:18.650 ever to heed the Cry the Habakkusha. Humanity 00:32:18.650 --> 00:32:22.009 and nuclear weapons cannot coexist, especially 00:32:22.009 --> 00:32:26.029 at this perilous moment. Well, Art, there's so 00:32:26.029 --> 00:32:28.569 much to talk about, and we'll talk more in the 00:32:28.569 --> 00:32:32.470 future. I want to end with asking you to share 00:32:32.470 --> 00:32:35.609 some thoughts about Jesus and nonviolence. Like 00:32:35.609 --> 00:32:38.730 you, I've been teaching the nonviolence of Jesus 00:32:38.730 --> 00:32:41.769 for decades, and we're calling this podcast the 00:32:41.769 --> 00:32:44.690 Nonviolent Jesus Podcast because I want people 00:32:44.690 --> 00:32:48.180 to know that Jesus was totally nonviolent and 00:32:48.180 --> 00:32:50.839 that if you're going to be a follower of him, 00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:53.980 you have to try to be totally nonviolent, which 00:32:53.980 --> 00:32:56.880 means I think fundamentally now in this country, 00:32:56.920 --> 00:32:59.880 because we're so sick, getting rid of our guns, 00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:04.259 quitting the military, and working publicly to 00:33:04.259 --> 00:33:06.839 welcome God's reign of peace with justice here 00:33:06.839 --> 00:33:09.960 on earth. So tell me some thoughts you have these 00:33:09.960 --> 00:33:13.339 days. about the nonviolence of Jesus and the 00:33:13.339 --> 00:33:17.880 mission of gospel nonviolence that still beckons 00:33:17.880 --> 00:33:22.619 each one of us. Sure, sure. Well, thank you. 00:33:22.660 --> 00:33:27.279 John, I have to commend you, brother, on the 00:33:27.279 --> 00:33:31.859 ministry that you have been about for so long 00:33:31.859 --> 00:33:36.319 and living and proclaiming gospel nonviolence 00:33:36.319 --> 00:33:39.599 and the vitally important work you're doing through 00:33:39.599 --> 00:33:46.440 the Beatitude Center. We need to heed Jesus's 00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:49.400 gospel call to nonviolence now more than ever. 00:33:51.799 --> 00:33:56.880 You know, in all the different experiences that 00:33:56.880 --> 00:34:02.079 I've had in war zones with the murder of my brother, 00:34:02.140 --> 00:34:07.140 going to prison for acts of nonviolent peacemaking. 00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:14.340 And so many other things. I keep coming back 00:34:14.340 --> 00:34:18.599 to this command that Jesus gives to us. And it's 00:34:18.599 --> 00:34:21.679 a command that we have to love one another, including 00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:26.699 our enemies. And Jesus shows us what this means 00:34:26.699 --> 00:34:31.440 when he's on the cross. He puts into practice 00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:35.420 this seemingly impossible command to love your 00:34:35.420 --> 00:34:39.289 enemies. And what is he doing on the cross? He's 00:34:39.289 --> 00:34:45.230 forgiving those who are murdering him. Just think 00:34:45.230 --> 00:34:49.269 about that. It's just, you know, and so Jesus 00:34:49.269 --> 00:34:52.030 doesn't ask us to do something we're not willing 00:34:52.030 --> 00:34:54.610 to do, that he was not willing to do himself. 00:34:55.690 --> 00:34:58.570 And so on the cross, Jesus is showing us how 00:34:58.570 --> 00:35:02.730 to live and die, and he inaugurates a new nonviolent 00:35:02.730 --> 00:35:06.789 history for humankind, something which you know 00:35:06.789 --> 00:35:14.000 and have written about. And so I feel that Jesus 00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:17.300 says in Mark's gospel, all things are possible 00:35:17.300 --> 00:35:21.980 for the one who believes and has faith. And I 00:35:21.980 --> 00:35:26.639 believe that. But we have to pray every day, 00:35:26.760 --> 00:35:35.199 I believe, help my unbelief. And Dr. King's message 00:35:35.199 --> 00:35:39.510 to us. Today is the application of what Jesus 00:35:39.510 --> 00:35:43.170 is saying about loving your enemies. The choice 00:35:43.170 --> 00:35:45.630 before us today is either nonviolence or non 00:35:45.630 --> 00:35:51.510 -existence. And he goes on to say, our only hope 00:35:51.510 --> 00:35:54.489 today lies in our ability to recapture the revolutionary 00:35:54.489 --> 00:35:58.550 spirit and go out into a sometimes hostile world, 00:35:58.769 --> 00:36:02.389 declaring eternal hostility to poverty, racism, 00:36:02.510 --> 00:36:06.889 and militarism. And now we add. religious nationalism, 00:36:07.210 --> 00:36:11.269 fascism, environmental destruction, and everything 00:36:11.269 --> 00:36:17.349 that's destroying life. And so I really pray 00:36:17.349 --> 00:36:20.730 for everybody who's listening that they can be 00:36:20.730 --> 00:36:24.449 filled with the spirit of Samud, that Arabic 00:36:24.449 --> 00:36:27.690 word for steadfastness, resilience, and hope, 00:36:27.849 --> 00:36:32.090 and really believe that Jesus has overcome the 00:36:32.090 --> 00:36:36.610 world. And be about the work of living and proclaiming 00:36:36.610 --> 00:36:39.449 God's reign of love, justice, peace, and nonviolence 00:36:39.449 --> 00:36:44.269 in resistance to a war -making empire as we all 00:36:44.269 --> 00:36:47.170 strive to create a beloved community. And it's 00:36:47.170 --> 00:36:49.949 a long haul made up of a lot of short hauls. 00:36:50.010 --> 00:36:54.429 And I encourage people to do everything that 00:36:54.429 --> 00:36:58.030 they can. Everything makes a difference. Wherever 00:36:58.030 --> 00:37:02.230 you are, don't lose heart. Keep your eyes on 00:37:02.230 --> 00:37:06.389 that prize and hold on. Christ is risen. Amen, 00:37:06.429 --> 00:37:09.150 brother. Well, you're sounding like Dan there 00:37:09.150 --> 00:37:12.590 at the end, that we could both say we're trying 00:37:12.590 --> 00:37:16.849 to test the resurrection and even to taste the 00:37:16.849 --> 00:37:21.210 resurrection. And I hope with Dan that you and 00:37:21.210 --> 00:37:23.909 I and everyone listening will be able to say. 00:37:25.380 --> 00:37:28.659 May I say I've not been disappointed. Art, as 00:37:28.659 --> 00:37:30.619 we close, is there any last word you'd like to 00:37:30.619 --> 00:37:35.139 give us? I think you've summed it up well. Well, 00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:38.860 you know, I wear a shirt all the time that's 00:37:38.860 --> 00:37:41.219 given to me by the L .A. Catholic Worker, a quote 00:37:41.219 --> 00:37:46.000 from Dorothy, the only solution is love. And 00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:51.780 I just, now more than ever, you know, we need 00:37:51.780 --> 00:37:57.309 to be about. the gospel mandate of loving one 00:37:57.309 --> 00:38:01.730 another. And, you know, there's so much fear 00:38:01.730 --> 00:38:07.230 and mistrust and lies and distortion of the truth. 00:38:07.489 --> 00:38:12.929 And genocide is normalized. Killing is normalized. 00:38:13.309 --> 00:38:16.130 You know, deportation is becoming normalized. 00:38:16.230 --> 00:38:21.670 And we have to stand for life wherever it's threatened. 00:38:22.860 --> 00:38:26.639 And we have to be that gospel witness of nonviolence. 00:38:27.840 --> 00:38:30.119 We're part of all these different movements. 00:38:31.559 --> 00:38:36.039 There's a river whose streams make glad the city 00:38:36.039 --> 00:38:39.980 of God. And we're all part of a stream to make 00:38:39.980 --> 00:38:43.320 that river glad for the city of God. And that 00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:48.420 river of life, love, truth, and justice and nonviolence 00:38:48.420 --> 00:38:54.650 is rising up everywhere. And thanks be to God. 00:38:54.730 --> 00:38:58.510 Deo gratias. Amen. Well, thank you so much, Art 00:38:58.510 --> 00:39:00.750 Laffin, for speaking with me today. And thank 00:39:00.750 --> 00:39:03.429 you, everyone, for listening to this episode 00:39:03.429 --> 00:39:05.829 of the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. You can hear 00:39:05.829 --> 00:39:09.190 many more wonderful podcasts and other upcoming 00:39:09.190 --> 00:39:13.949 Zoom programs at www .beatitudescenter .org. 00:39:14.860 --> 00:39:18.219 And please consider offering a donation to support 00:39:18.219 --> 00:39:21.099 this free work. And if you can, please leave 00:39:21.099 --> 00:39:23.780 some positive feedback or review at the National 00:39:23.780 --> 00:39:27.260 Catholic Reporter or Apple or Spotify or whatever 00:39:27.260 --> 00:39:30.280 platform you use. And help spread the word by 00:39:30.280 --> 00:39:32.639 telling your friends about this podcast. That's 00:39:32.639 --> 00:39:35.960 the best way people will hear about it. May the 00:39:35.960 --> 00:39:38.500 God of peace bless you all. Keep on following 00:39:38.500 --> 00:39:41.340 the nonviolent Jesus. See you next time.