WEBVTT 00:00:15.210 --> 00:00:18.329 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:18.329 --> 00:00:21.129 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:21.129 --> 00:00:24.690 with my friend, Dr. Cornel West. This podcast 00:00:24.690 --> 00:00:30.250 is a project of www .beatitudecenter .org, where 00:00:30.250 --> 00:00:32.329 you can find many other podcasts and regular 00:00:32.329 --> 00:00:35.509 Zoom programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and 00:00:35.509 --> 00:00:38.070 practicing nonviolence and working for a more 00:00:38.070 --> 00:00:41.829 just, more nonviolent world. So as usual, I'd 00:00:41.829 --> 00:00:43.789 like to begin with a little prayer. So I invite 00:00:43.789 --> 00:00:46.909 you, wherever you are, just to take a deep breath, 00:00:47.149 --> 00:00:51.250 just to relax, notice how you're feeling, and 00:00:51.250 --> 00:00:55.060 recenter yourself again. And together, as we 00:00:55.060 --> 00:00:57.799 begin with our friend, let's enter into the presence 00:00:57.799 --> 00:01:01.539 of the God of peace who loves you infinitely 00:01:01.539 --> 00:01:06.739 and personally and everyone. And let's welcome 00:01:06.739 --> 00:01:10.219 the risen nonviolent Jesus here with us and just 00:01:10.219 --> 00:01:13.280 take a moment to ask for whatever grace you need 00:01:13.280 --> 00:01:16.959 to follow him ever more faithfully and do God's 00:01:16.959 --> 00:01:25.430 will. God of peace, thank you for all the blessings 00:01:25.430 --> 00:01:28.629 of life, love, and peace that you give us. Be 00:01:28.629 --> 00:01:31.790 with us now as we reflect together on your call 00:01:31.790 --> 00:01:35.810 to follow the nonviolent Jesus and seek justice 00:01:35.810 --> 00:01:39.670 and make peace. Bless us, inspire us, disarm 00:01:39.670 --> 00:01:43.569 us, strengthen us, and send us out anew to do 00:01:43.569 --> 00:01:46.760 your will today and do our part. to help end 00:01:46.760 --> 00:01:51.000 poverty, racism, greed, injustice, war, nuclear 00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:54.120 weapons, fascism, and environmental destruction. 00:01:54.459 --> 00:01:57.400 That we might be your holy beatitude people, 00:01:57.680 --> 00:02:01.060 your holy peacemakers, and welcome your reign 00:02:01.060 --> 00:02:05.340 of universal love, nonviolence, and peace on 00:02:05.340 --> 00:02:09.259 earth. In Jesus' name, amen. Well, dear friends, 00:02:09.419 --> 00:02:11.860 listeners, it's a great pleasure and a great 00:02:11.860 --> 00:02:15.419 blessing to welcome my friend, the esteemed Dr. 00:02:15.580 --> 00:02:18.340 Cornel West here with us. Like millions of others, 00:02:18.580 --> 00:02:22.900 I consider Cornel West the leading public intellectual 00:02:22.900 --> 00:02:25.319 in the United States, maybe the world. For me, 00:02:25.439 --> 00:02:28.819 he's right up there with Emerson and W .E .B. 00:02:28.879 --> 00:02:31.500 Dubois. Brother Cornel has recently served as 00:02:31.500 --> 00:02:35.060 the Dietrich Bonhoeffer Chair at Union Theological 00:02:35.060 --> 00:02:38.120 Seminary. and he's the former professor of the 00:02:38.120 --> 00:02:41.139 practice of public philosophy at Harvard, professor 00:02:41.139 --> 00:02:43.819 emeritus at Princeton University. He graduated 00:02:43.819 --> 00:02:46.879 magna cum laude from Harvard in three years and 00:02:46.879 --> 00:02:49.719 obtained his M .A. and Ph .D. in philosophy at 00:02:49.719 --> 00:02:52.400 Princeton. Cornell has written about 20 books 00:02:52.400 --> 00:02:55.860 and edited 13 others, best known for his classic 00:02:55.860 --> 00:02:59.479 books, which I hope everybody gets, Race Matters 00:02:59.479 --> 00:03:02.759 and Democracy Matters, and his memoir, Brother 00:03:02.759 --> 00:03:06.280 West, Living... and loving out loud. His book, 00:03:06.419 --> 00:03:10.360 Black Prophetic Fire, is a great book with an 00:03:10.360 --> 00:03:13.740 unflinching look at 19th and 20th century African 00:03:13.740 --> 00:03:17.710 American leaders and their visionary. Dr. West 00:03:17.710 --> 00:03:21.289 has partnered with MasterClass .com to provide 00:03:21.289 --> 00:03:24.530 teachings on several influential courses, including 00:03:24.530 --> 00:03:27.889 recently a class he did with Pharrell Williams 00:03:27.889 --> 00:03:32.210 on empathy. So check out CornelWest .com. It's 00:03:32.210 --> 00:03:35.009 a great blessing and joy for me to spend time 00:03:35.009 --> 00:03:38.110 with you, brother. So welcome, Brother Cornel 00:03:38.110 --> 00:03:41.879 West, to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. Well, 00:03:41.900 --> 00:03:44.419 my dear brother, I want to begin by saluting 00:03:44.419 --> 00:03:47.439 you. I know you got Brother Rob and Sister Liz 00:03:47.439 --> 00:03:49.719 there helping you out, but I want to begin by 00:03:49.719 --> 00:03:53.560 saluting you, brother. Your revolutionary sojourn 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:56.379 and prophetic pilgrimage going all the way back 00:03:56.379 --> 00:03:58.900 to North Carolina, as I recall, don't I? Yeah. 00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:02.419 Born in North Carolina, same town as Max Roach 00:04:02.419 --> 00:04:05.240 and Ed Snowden, brother. I mean, you are producing 00:04:05.240 --> 00:04:08.219 some towering figures down there in North Carolina, 00:04:08.219 --> 00:04:11.500 that little section, man. Thank you, Cornell. 00:04:12.259 --> 00:04:14.500 And then, of course, the connections with the 00:04:14.500 --> 00:04:19.600 inimitable Daniel. Let us never, ever, ever forget 00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:24.240 their witness. Did you never meet them? I met 00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:28.120 Brother Daniel. He was up at Le Moyne. Oh, wow. 00:04:28.620 --> 00:04:31.319 And I met him. I stayed in his place right before 00:04:31.319 --> 00:04:36.000 we had a big... And we talked about poetry. Oh, 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:39.060 wow. Because he was such a towering literary 00:04:39.060 --> 00:04:43.319 figure as well as a courageous prophetic figure 00:04:43.319 --> 00:04:48.000 as well. But, oh, no, he was an inspiration. 00:04:48.079 --> 00:04:52.079 But you have so much barricade in you, though. 00:04:52.180 --> 00:04:54.259 I mean, you got the spirit of Jesus. All y 'all 00:04:54.259 --> 00:04:58.319 got the spirit of Jesus. We can go on and on. 00:04:58.680 --> 00:05:03.329 But you were one of these grands. legatees of 00:05:03.329 --> 00:05:06.750 these figures that still at work, visionary, 00:05:06.850 --> 00:05:09.829 sacrificial, serving the least of these, smile 00:05:09.829 --> 00:05:13.449 on your face with your own style from North Carolina 00:05:13.449 --> 00:05:17.370 all the way through your life. Oh, no, that's 00:05:17.370 --> 00:05:20.089 real, though. That's why it's always a blessing 00:05:20.089 --> 00:05:25.230 just to be in your presence. Hey, this is about 00:05:25.230 --> 00:05:29.310 you, man. Thank you. So to the listeners, I'm 00:05:29.310 --> 00:05:32.480 going to jump right in and start. where I left 00:05:32.480 --> 00:05:34.839 off with Cornell last. And if you don't know 00:05:34.839 --> 00:05:38.480 this, Cornell and I did a long Zoom together, 00:05:38.600 --> 00:05:41.160 maybe a year and a half or two years ago, which 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:45.639 was mythic. And I recommend everybody go and 00:05:45.639 --> 00:05:48.540 watch it. It's for free on the Beatitude Center 00:05:48.540 --> 00:05:51.139 YouTube page. I think you just go to YouTube, 00:05:51.439 --> 00:05:53.920 type in your email, and you ask for Beatitude 00:05:53.920 --> 00:05:57.060 Center email. And then over 100 Zooms come up, 00:05:57.079 --> 00:05:59.779 and Cornell is right there at the top. So I'm 00:05:59.779 --> 00:06:03.079 picking off where I left off with Cornell a year 00:06:03.079 --> 00:06:05.079 and a half ago, because this is going to be a 00:06:05.079 --> 00:06:08.779 lifelong conversation. We have a lot to talk 00:06:08.779 --> 00:06:13.209 about, the two of us. Cornell, here we are, six 00:06:13.209 --> 00:06:15.930 months into the second Trump presidency, and 00:06:15.930 --> 00:06:19.879 he's dismantled or trying to. Pretty much anything 00:06:19.879 --> 00:06:23.500 good in the country, every advance in civil rights, 00:06:23.660 --> 00:06:26.279 voting rights, human rights, health care, education, 00:06:26.720 --> 00:06:29.439 environmental protection, and so forth, while 00:06:29.439 --> 00:06:32.959 radically increasing tax breaks for billionaires 00:06:32.959 --> 00:06:36.439 and billions and billions more for war and the 00:06:36.439 --> 00:06:39.160 weapons manufacturers. But what he's really doing, 00:06:39.180 --> 00:06:44.050 besides all this evil, is violating. so many 00:06:44.050 --> 00:06:47.329 laws and attacking the Constitution at every 00:06:47.329 --> 00:06:52.050 chance and bringing down democracy and leading 00:06:52.050 --> 00:06:55.949 us all into full -on authoritarianism, oligarchy, 00:06:56.189 --> 00:06:59.709 tyranny, fascism, and let's say it, full -on 00:06:59.709 --> 00:07:02.889 white supremacy. I wanted to begin by asking 00:07:02.889 --> 00:07:05.389 you just to talk about it all, your take on what 00:07:05.389 --> 00:07:08.910 we're going through. Yeah, I mean, I think you 00:07:08.910 --> 00:07:11.490 laid it out there, though, brother. But as you 00:07:11.490 --> 00:07:15.209 know, I mean... Any empire has been about 70 00:07:15.209 --> 00:07:17.470 of them since the beginning of the species. United 00:07:17.470 --> 00:07:22.709 States number 68. They come and go. They peak. 00:07:22.829 --> 00:07:25.870 They begin to decay and decline, usually as a 00:07:25.870 --> 00:07:28.750 result of military outreach. We've got, what, 00:07:28.870 --> 00:07:31.470 800 military units around the world facilitating 00:07:31.470 --> 00:07:37.399 genocide right now in Gaza. pulling back in many 00:07:37.399 --> 00:07:40.019 ways and still indirectly connected to genocide 00:07:40.019 --> 00:07:43.980 in Sudan. Usually the empires began to connect 00:07:43.980 --> 00:07:46.300 that military overreach with corruption of elites 00:07:46.300 --> 00:07:49.120 across the board, not just political parties, 00:07:49.259 --> 00:07:53.339 but of upper classes and wealthy classes who 00:07:53.339 --> 00:07:55.720 began to view life as a gold rush and therefore 00:07:55.720 --> 00:07:58.600 end up worshiping the golden calf and transform 00:07:58.600 --> 00:08:02.779 the golden rule to he who has the gold will rule 00:08:02.779 --> 00:08:05.120 and think the chickens won't come home to roost. 00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:07.939 somehow you're not going to reap what you sow. 00:08:08.180 --> 00:08:11.540 So it then is connected to an impotence, a sense 00:08:11.540 --> 00:08:14.519 of powerlessness and helplessness among the citizenry. 00:08:14.579 --> 00:08:17.379 And that's how they end up out of deep frustration 00:08:17.379 --> 00:08:20.519 and desperation, calling for a strong man, a 00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:25.459 tyrant, a fascist, an authoritarian figure, a 00:08:25.459 --> 00:08:28.680 dictator, whatever language you want to use. 00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:31.019 But the last thing has to do with a spiritual 00:08:31.019 --> 00:08:34.440 and moral vacuum. spiritual and moral emptiness, 00:08:34.700 --> 00:08:38.080 which means that the citizenry find it more and 00:08:38.080 --> 00:08:41.240 more difficult to be in contact with the best 00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:45.500 of what has gone into them. historically, communally, 00:08:45.639 --> 00:08:48.519 religiously, intellectually. That's one of the 00:08:48.519 --> 00:08:51.039 reasons why the Martin Kings and Dorothy Days 00:08:51.039 --> 00:08:53.360 and Philip and Daniel Berrigan's and so forth 00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:57.080 are not household words, because they represent 00:08:57.080 --> 00:08:59.679 the best of the history of the American empire. 00:08:59.960 --> 00:09:02.820 And it's hard for people to get in contact with 00:09:02.820 --> 00:09:06.860 their lives, their witnesses, their sacrifice, 00:09:07.240 --> 00:09:09.720 their visions, their words, their utterances. 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:13.460 And so people end up having to choose. between 00:09:13.460 --> 00:09:17.399 a number of options that have little to do with 00:09:17.399 --> 00:09:21.080 the best of the history of their own country, 00:09:21.220 --> 00:09:22.860 the history of their own empire, the history 00:09:22.860 --> 00:09:26.159 of their own religions or whatever traditions 00:09:26.159 --> 00:09:29.480 they're a part of. That's the makings of the 00:09:29.480 --> 00:09:31.779 collapse of an empire. And that's what we are 00:09:31.779 --> 00:09:35.740 witnessing. the collapse and implosion of the 00:09:35.740 --> 00:09:39.059 American empire in real time. And of course, 00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:42.019 Trump himself is a major factor, but he's as 00:09:42.019 --> 00:09:45.580 much a sign and a symptom. He's not the cause 00:09:45.580 --> 00:09:48.679 of it. The cause is the organized greed. The 00:09:48.679 --> 00:09:51.679 cause is the weaponized hatred. The cause is 00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:53.740 the institutionalized indifference toward the 00:09:53.740 --> 00:09:56.740 least of these. You remember Rabbi Hester used 00:09:56.740 --> 00:09:59.700 to say what? Indifference to evil is more insidious 00:09:59.700 --> 00:10:04.320 than evil itself. that reinforces the unbelievable 00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:07.559 levels of the spiritual wickedness, especially 00:10:07.559 --> 00:10:10.720 in high places. And so we have to try to just 00:10:10.720 --> 00:10:13.940 tell the truth about where we are, but recognize 00:10:13.940 --> 00:10:17.419 that it's not really new. I mean, it's already 00:10:17.419 --> 00:10:20.690 at work in Melville's Moby Dick. but ahab right 00:10:20.690 --> 00:10:24.009 you got the ship and multiracial the queen part 00:10:24.009 --> 00:10:27.669 you've got uh the unbelievable obsession with 00:10:27.669 --> 00:10:29.789 the whiteness of the well and white supremacy 00:10:29.789 --> 00:10:34.029 itself tied to empire tied to predatory capitalist 00:10:34.029 --> 00:10:37.809 processes it's tied to very patriarchal and homophobic 00:10:37.809 --> 00:10:41.659 and and transphobic sensibilities that lose sight 00:10:41.659 --> 00:10:45.639 of the rich sanctity and holiness and dignity 00:10:45.639 --> 00:10:48.039 of human beings made in the image of a living 00:10:48.039 --> 00:10:53.100 and loving God. Melville saw it way back in 1851, 00:10:53.379 --> 00:10:56.519 and there's been attempts to continually speak 00:10:56.519 --> 00:11:00.820 to it. And that's why, again, the histories of 00:11:00.820 --> 00:11:03.870 the Eugene Debses. The histories of the Vico 00:11:03.870 --> 00:11:06.950 Marcantonios and the W .B. Du Bois and the Frederick 00:11:06.950 --> 00:11:10.110 Douglases and the Lydia Maria Childs, we can 00:11:10.110 --> 00:11:13.470 go on and on. And as you know, it's chocolate 00:11:13.470 --> 00:11:15.970 folk, it's vanilla folk, it's all colors, it's 00:11:15.970 --> 00:11:18.570 all genders, it's all sexual orientations who 00:11:18.570 --> 00:11:20.730 constitutes this prophetic cloud of witnesses. 00:11:20.950 --> 00:11:23.450 But that prophetic cloud of witnesses is usually 00:11:23.450 --> 00:11:29.909 what? Marginalized, vilified, demonized, incarcerated. 00:11:31.419 --> 00:11:34.980 character assassination or literal assassination. 00:11:35.299 --> 00:11:38.320 That's been very much the history of prophetic 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:41.360 witness in the American empire. And I think that's 00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:43.639 true for any empire, but American empire has 00:11:43.639 --> 00:11:46.399 its own distinctive characteristics. We're the 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:49.600 only empire that understands itself to be innocent, 00:11:49.899 --> 00:11:53.340 that somehow we're so tied to innocence. James 00:11:53.340 --> 00:11:56.059 Baldwin said, what innocence itself is the crime. 00:11:56.730 --> 00:11:58.929 Because if you're innocence, then it's blinded. 00:11:58.929 --> 00:12:01.009 That wonderful line in Melville's Billy Budd, 00:12:01.190 --> 00:12:02.870 probably the greatest short story in the history 00:12:02.870 --> 00:12:05.909 of American literature, where he says, innocence 00:12:05.909 --> 00:12:08.629 itself is the fundamental form of blindness. 00:12:09.829 --> 00:12:12.769 And America's claim to being innocent vis -a 00:12:12.769 --> 00:12:14.929 -vis genocide of indigenous people, innocent 00:12:14.929 --> 00:12:18.129 vis -a -vis slavery of African peoples, innocent 00:12:18.129 --> 00:12:20.970 in terms of domestic violence, innocent in terms 00:12:20.970 --> 00:12:23.730 of bosses' violence vis -a -vis workers, and 00:12:23.730 --> 00:12:26.370 why it took us so long to have a workers' movement 00:12:26.370 --> 00:12:28.289 that can engage in collective bargaining, not 00:12:28.289 --> 00:12:32.340 until the 19th. 30s. Argentina had collective 00:12:32.340 --> 00:12:35.000 bargaining legalized in the 1860s. Argentina 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:37.580 is not known for being a country on the cutting 00:12:37.580 --> 00:12:40.019 edge of social justice, but they beat the American 00:12:40.019 --> 00:12:43.179 working class for legal organized collective 00:12:43.179 --> 00:12:45.960 bargaining 100 years. That has to do with organized 00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:49.960 greed at the top of the robber barons and the 00:12:49.960 --> 00:12:52.940 ruling classes that would reshape so much of 00:12:52.940 --> 00:12:55.559 America and the world in their own. corporate 00:12:55.559 --> 00:12:58.960 predatory capitalist image and view that as normal 00:12:58.960 --> 00:13:02.039 and view that as naturalized. Well, here comes 00:13:02.039 --> 00:13:05.320 the spirit of Jesus. Here come followers of Jesus. 00:13:05.340 --> 00:13:08.340 Here come these disciples of Jesus in a contemporary 00:13:08.340 --> 00:13:14.740 form. Saying what? Saying that gold status, position, 00:13:15.179 --> 00:13:19.240 spectacle, capitalist power, white supremacist 00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:24.059 power, all forms of idolatry and will lead toward 00:13:24.440 --> 00:13:29.019 destruction, self -destruction. You can see that 00:13:29.019 --> 00:13:31.820 going all the way back from Harriet Tubman to 00:13:31.820 --> 00:13:35.539 Martin King. You can see it going all the way 00:13:35.539 --> 00:13:40.179 back. to, oh my God, we got so many, the Elijah 00:13:40.179 --> 00:13:42.700 Lovejoy, you know, a white brother who graduated 00:13:42.700 --> 00:13:45.019 from Princeton Seminary, you know him, who was 00:13:45.019 --> 00:13:48.960 killed in East St. Louis trying to get his abolitionist 00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:51.639 press off the ground, just shot him dead, and 00:13:51.639 --> 00:13:54.120 his brother tried to keep alive his legacy. In 00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:56.419 some ways, it's similar to the Berrigan brothers 00:13:56.419 --> 00:13:59.279 in the 20th century. Those Lovejoy brothers were 00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:01.320 really something else. They ought to be household 00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:04.299 words, man. Americans ought to know about their 00:14:04.299 --> 00:14:08.360 witness, know about their courage. Very, very 00:14:08.360 --> 00:14:11.059 difficult to keep these traditions alive. But 00:14:11.059 --> 00:14:12.899 that's what you've been able to do in your life, 00:14:12.980 --> 00:14:15.019 and that's what you do in this broadcast. But 00:14:15.019 --> 00:14:17.879 in the end, we should never be surprised by evil 00:14:17.879 --> 00:14:20.820 or paralyzed by despair, though, brother. Even 00:14:20.820 --> 00:14:23.220 when we tell the truth about just how ugly the 00:14:23.220 --> 00:14:26.370 situation is, we're blues. We blues people. We 00:14:26.370 --> 00:14:29.350 blues Christians. Blues is about what? Telling 00:14:29.350 --> 00:14:31.990 the truth about catastrophe. Understanding the 00:14:31.990 --> 00:14:34.169 cross as the ultimate catastrophe. But knowing 00:14:34.169 --> 00:14:37.289 catastrophe or the cross do not have the last 00:14:37.289 --> 00:14:41.750 word. That love is never crushed. The joy is 00:14:41.750 --> 00:14:45.350 never eliminated. The courage is never erased. 00:14:45.529 --> 00:14:48.649 It's still piercing through. Sometimes just at 00:14:48.649 --> 00:14:50.990 the blood at the bottom of that cross. Sometimes 00:14:50.990 --> 00:14:53.570 it's piercing through. With you going to jail 00:14:53.570 --> 00:14:57.210 85 times and still coming out with a smile. Sometimes 00:14:57.210 --> 00:15:00.269 it's Martin getting shot down like a dog in Memphis, 00:15:00.350 --> 00:15:03.169 but people responding to his love witness in 00:15:03.169 --> 00:15:06.049 such a way and saying, we shall never forget 00:15:06.049 --> 00:15:09.529 him and the movement and we shall never cave 00:15:09.529 --> 00:15:14.470 in, give up or sell our souls for a mess of pottage. 00:15:14.669 --> 00:15:18.769 That's what persists in the best of those of 00:15:18.769 --> 00:15:22.370 us who. still have the audacity to be followers 00:15:22.370 --> 00:15:25.610 of a Palestinian Jew named Jesus. Amen, brother. 00:15:25.830 --> 00:15:30.889 I think you've resolved everything. And we could 00:15:30.889 --> 00:15:33.269 end there and just listen to that for the rest 00:15:33.269 --> 00:15:35.730 of our lives. Tell you, man, that was brilliant. 00:15:35.950 --> 00:15:41.350 Did you say it can't be? How did you say that? 00:15:42.629 --> 00:15:45.590 Surprised by evil and paralyzed by despair? We 00:15:45.590 --> 00:15:48.870 should never be surprised by evil or paralyzed 00:15:48.870 --> 00:15:54.289 by despair. That's brilliant, man. Okay. There's 00:15:54.289 --> 00:15:56.470 so much I want to ask you, and we're just going 00:15:56.470 --> 00:15:58.269 to have to keep the conversation going in the 00:15:58.269 --> 00:16:02.669 years ahead. In all of that level of evil right 00:16:02.669 --> 00:16:06.470 now and idolatry, I really want you to say a 00:16:06.470 --> 00:16:09.330 word particularly about Christian nationalism, 00:16:09.710 --> 00:16:12.909 this heresy and blasphemy that all the stuff 00:16:12.909 --> 00:16:15.570 you're talking about is in all the churches. 00:16:15.649 --> 00:16:18.549 I don't know how it could be otherwise given. 00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:22.740 the depth of evil in the country now. And I mean, 00:16:22.919 --> 00:16:25.059 I think it's everywhere. In all the churches, 00:16:25.100 --> 00:16:28.220 there's a complacency and a complicity. But of 00:16:28.220 --> 00:16:30.740 course, particularly in the white churches, it's 00:16:30.740 --> 00:16:32.840 in the Protestant churches, it's in the Catholic 00:16:32.840 --> 00:16:34.980 churches, probably in all religions. But let's 00:16:34.980 --> 00:16:38.700 look at, for a moment, how Christian nationalism 00:16:38.700 --> 00:16:41.799 has, after decades, really flourished now in 00:16:41.799 --> 00:16:44.299 the white supremacy and authoritarianism of Trump, 00:16:44.379 --> 00:16:49.320 and how this is blasphemy. And brainwashing, 00:16:49.340 --> 00:16:52.659 as our friend Jim Lawson said, it's just another 00:16:52.659 --> 00:16:57.120 way to spread plantation capitalism and the domination 00:16:57.120 --> 00:17:00.179 of billionaires and the corporate military elite. 00:17:00.460 --> 00:17:03.440 So I'm going to ask you about Jesus, but first 00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:07.519 tell me about this heresy and any thoughts you 00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:10.559 had on it. Yeah, I mean, one thing to keep in 00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:13.279 mind, as you know, the Constantinian Christianity 00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:17.019 begins with the imperial hijacking of the early 00:17:17.019 --> 00:17:20.660 church, where institutional Christianity accommodates 00:17:20.660 --> 00:17:24.799 itself so readily to empire, to the status quo, 00:17:24.980 --> 00:17:27.259 to the powers that be, whatever evil we're talking 00:17:27.259 --> 00:17:29.519 about, white supremacy, male supremacy, homophobia, 00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:32.400 transphobia, it could be anti -Jewish hatred, 00:17:32.539 --> 00:17:35.339 anti -Muslim hatred, whatever, that the institutional 00:17:35.339 --> 00:17:39.220 Christianity has always... accommodated itself 00:17:39.220 --> 00:17:41.720 in a disproportionate way and yet there's always 00:17:41.720 --> 00:17:44.319 in prophetic christians to bring critique to 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:47.599 bear on that accommodation of institutional christianity 00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:50.420 in the united states of course because white 00:17:50.420 --> 00:17:53.779 supremacy sits at so much of the center of the 00:17:53.779 --> 00:17:56.759 founding of the country given the genocidal attacks 00:17:56.759 --> 00:17:59.059 on indigenous peoples and enslavement of black 00:17:59.059 --> 00:18:02.200 folk leading towards civil war leading toward 00:18:02.200 --> 00:18:04.460 jim and jane crow leading toward the forms of 00:18:04.460 --> 00:18:07.920 american terror and trauma bombarding peoples 00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:11.539 of color that we've always seen. Historical Christianity 00:18:11.539 --> 00:18:15.779 in the United States accommodated itself to genocide, 00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:18.500 accommodated itself to slavery, accommodated 00:18:18.500 --> 00:18:21.240 itself to lynching, accommodated itself to Jim 00:18:21.240 --> 00:18:23.619 and Jane Crow, accommodated itself to patriarchy 00:18:23.619 --> 00:18:27.319 and so forth. And so in the last 30 or 40 years, 00:18:27.380 --> 00:18:30.400 a distinctive form of American fascism, and this 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:33.359 is something that Brother Chris Hedges has been 00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:36.299 strong on, you know, his father. himself was 00:18:36.299 --> 00:18:40.299 quite a prophetic Christian minister who really 00:18:40.299 --> 00:18:43.359 lost his church because of his love of gay brothers 00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:46.700 way back in the 1960s. But Chris Hedges, you 00:18:46.700 --> 00:18:48.500 know, graduated Harvard Divinity School, one 00:18:48.500 --> 00:18:51.619 of the great prophetic forces of our time. You 00:18:51.619 --> 00:18:55.220 know, Brother Chris, he's written on this, on 00:18:55.220 --> 00:18:57.920 the Christian fascists and the Christian nationalists 00:18:57.920 --> 00:19:01.980 accommodating themselves to the American -style 00:19:01.980 --> 00:19:05.920 fascism and neo -fascism. that there's no doubt, 00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:11.240 what is it, 82 % of fellow right -wing reactionary 00:19:11.240 --> 00:19:17.220 Christian evangelical folk voted for Trump. It's 00:19:17.220 --> 00:19:19.140 incredible. You say to yourself, I thought y 00:19:19.140 --> 00:19:23.480 'all wanted some moral character and moral virtue. 00:19:23.480 --> 00:19:26.859 I always thought you were concerned about family 00:19:26.859 --> 00:19:30.220 values and so forth. We discover the veil has 00:19:30.220 --> 00:19:32.759 been ripped off. That was just empty rhetoric. 00:19:33.400 --> 00:19:35.759 You just wanted somebody who was going to push 00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:39.119 your positions that reinforce your interests. 00:19:39.220 --> 00:19:41.880 My God, I ain't got nothing to do whatsoever 00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:45.319 with a Palestinian Jew named Jesus. And you know 00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:48.319 that deep down in your heart. All you got to 00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:51.019 do is look at your speeches 15, 20, 30 years 00:19:51.019 --> 00:19:54.299 ago when you were talking about the family values 00:19:54.299 --> 00:19:57.279 and moral character and moral virtue and so forth. 00:19:57.359 --> 00:20:00.289 You got a thoroughgoing gangster. He's been a 00:20:00.289 --> 00:20:02.970 gangster for 45 years. He's proud of it. He has 00:20:02.970 --> 00:20:07.369 no shame. He's explicit about his hatred. He's 00:20:07.369 --> 00:20:10.230 explicit about his hostilities. He can't keep 00:20:10.230 --> 00:20:14.089 his friends because it's clear that he hasn't 00:20:14.089 --> 00:20:16.529 cultivated the capacity to love and be loved. 00:20:16.730 --> 00:20:18.890 You almost feel pity on a certain level. And 00:20:18.890 --> 00:20:22.150 the charges of the women against him. Oh, my 00:20:22.150 --> 00:20:26.289 God. And, you know, he's 30. Cornelius, 30 felony 00:20:26.289 --> 00:20:29.289 convictions. I have three. And everybody's telling 00:20:29.289 --> 00:20:33.789 me I should run for president now. Okay, well. 00:20:34.029 --> 00:20:37.130 But you got felons for the kingdom, for the beloved. 00:20:37.130 --> 00:20:39.630 That's right. I was hammering on a nuclear weapon. 00:20:40.230 --> 00:20:44.410 So let's talk about Jesus. As you know, I've 00:20:44.410 --> 00:20:47.170 called this podcast the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. 00:20:47.309 --> 00:20:50.410 And it's kind of become my life's work. I didn't 00:20:50.410 --> 00:20:53.390 know that, you know, decades ago that having 00:20:53.390 --> 00:20:55.829 studied God. Gandhi and Dr. King and lived with 00:20:55.829 --> 00:20:59.369 Dan Berrigan for so long. And I was obsessed 00:20:59.369 --> 00:21:02.349 with nonviolence. And I was putting it together 00:21:02.349 --> 00:21:05.710 with following Jesus. And then, you know, I realized, 00:21:05.930 --> 00:21:09.849 as Gandhi said. Jesus is the greatest person 00:21:09.849 --> 00:21:12.690 of nonviolence in history. And the only people 00:21:12.690 --> 00:21:15.910 who don't know that Jesus is nonviolent are Christians. 00:21:16.769 --> 00:21:20.990 Poor Gandhi. So it's a stupid question to ask 00:21:20.990 --> 00:21:23.470 you, but I just want you to tell me your thoughts 00:21:23.470 --> 00:21:27.289 these days about Jesus and what it means to follow 00:21:27.289 --> 00:21:31.069 the nonviolent Jesus now. And for the listeners, 00:21:31.109 --> 00:21:34.849 everyone is so discouraged. and why we don't 00:21:34.849 --> 00:21:36.930 need to be discouraged, but we need to get up 00:21:36.930 --> 00:21:41.789 and get out there. So what does discipleship 00:21:41.789 --> 00:21:45.309 mean, and what encouragement do you find as you 00:21:45.309 --> 00:21:48.329 continue to read the Gospels and try to be an 00:21:48.329 --> 00:21:51.269 authentic disciple? Well, you know, I'm blessed 00:21:51.269 --> 00:21:53.970 to teach at Union Theological Seminary, which 00:21:53.970 --> 00:21:56.730 has been one of the grand prophetic institutions. 00:21:56.869 --> 00:22:00.049 It's not pure, pristine. It's got its own challenges, 00:22:00.069 --> 00:22:02.789 but it's been one of the great. Places where 00:22:02.789 --> 00:22:05.430 I've been blessed to be empowered and inspired. 00:22:05.670 --> 00:22:09.109 And I teach class on Dietrich Bonhoeffer and 00:22:09.109 --> 00:22:11.670 James Baldwin. Of course, Bonhoeffer's great 00:22:11.670 --> 00:22:14.950 text, The Cost of Discipleship, which is basically 00:22:14.950 --> 00:22:19.089 a curriculum for the underground seminary fighting 00:22:19.089 --> 00:22:23.329 a gangster named Hitler. as Bonhoeffer wrestles 00:22:23.329 --> 00:22:26.089 with his profound commitment to nonviolence, 00:22:26.089 --> 00:22:29.289 but decides in the end to even join a small group 00:22:29.289 --> 00:22:32.670 and try to execute Hitler. So it's a very, very 00:22:32.670 --> 00:22:35.710 complicated and complex wrestling that you get 00:22:35.710 --> 00:22:39.930 in somebody like a Bonhoeffer. I'm also blessed 00:22:39.930 --> 00:22:43.710 to teach a course with my dear brother John Fenomenal 00:22:43.710 --> 00:22:47.970 on King and Gandhi and Ambedkar and Malcolm X. 00:22:48.190 --> 00:22:51.069 Oh, wow. Oh, yeah, it's a fascinating class. 00:22:51.069 --> 00:22:52.950 I didn't know you taught that. In fact, we got 00:22:52.950 --> 00:22:55.569 to bring you in. We brought Brother James Lawson 00:22:55.569 --> 00:22:57.990 when his book came out. Remember his name, Nonviolence? 00:22:58.009 --> 00:22:59.910 Yeah, yeah. We spent three hours with him right 00:22:59.910 --> 00:23:02.369 before he died. Yeah, one of my best friends, 00:23:02.630 --> 00:23:05.569 yeah. He's towering, towering. He's another figure 00:23:05.569 --> 00:23:08.029 ought to be a household name. Incredible guy. 00:23:08.029 --> 00:23:10.210 God Almighty. His student, John Lewis, of course, 00:23:10.230 --> 00:23:12.660 in some ways. He is much more. well known than 00:23:12.660 --> 00:23:16.180 his teacher. But I say all that to say that to 00:23:16.180 --> 00:23:19.640 be a follower of Jesus means to take up your 00:23:19.640 --> 00:23:23.339 cross, deny yourself and follow him, give everything 00:23:23.339 --> 00:23:27.160 inside of you that's been poured into you at 00:23:27.160 --> 00:23:29.519 your best, which is the love, the courage, the 00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:32.700 integrity, the honesty, focusing on the least 00:23:32.700 --> 00:23:35.000 of these, knowing that the world will view you 00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:38.039 as foolish, that through the lens of the dominant 00:23:38.039 --> 00:23:40.799 tendencies of the world, you'll always be viewed 00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:44.759 as as foolish Erasmus is right in praise of folly. 00:23:44.920 --> 00:23:48.440 Yes, it is foolish to follow a Palestinian Jew 00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:51.400 named Jesus that tells you to lead with love, 00:23:51.500 --> 00:23:54.220 that tells you to love your way through. the 00:23:54.220 --> 00:23:57.559 darkness, the cruelty, the coldness of the world. 00:23:57.660 --> 00:23:59.940 So you're in the world, but not of the world, 00:23:59.960 --> 00:24:02.799 that you're not conformed, but transformed by 00:24:02.799 --> 00:24:05.619 something bigger than you, a grace that is given 00:24:05.619 --> 00:24:09.019 to you, a legacy, a tradition, and memories of 00:24:09.019 --> 00:24:11.200 those who were part of the same love train you 00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:14.640 tried to stay on. Yeah, but Cornell, I want to 00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:18.440 hang in here with me, okay? So I totally agree 00:24:18.440 --> 00:24:21.970 with you. And I can't put it that way anymore. 00:24:22.130 --> 00:24:23.769 And let me just tell you what happened to me. 00:24:24.109 --> 00:24:28.329 So growing up in D .C. at the Pentagon, there's 00:24:28.329 --> 00:24:31.869 100 ,000 people planning the end of the world 00:24:31.869 --> 00:24:33.990 and killing people around the world. And they 00:24:33.990 --> 00:24:37.369 have 100 Bible studies a day and Catholic mass. 00:24:37.690 --> 00:24:41.670 They'd all say they're disciples of Jesus. Then 00:24:41.670 --> 00:24:44.250 I go to New Mexico and I'm leading a campaign 00:24:44.250 --> 00:24:46.769 at Los Alamos where they build all the nuclear 00:24:46.769 --> 00:24:50.339 bombs and the churches are packed. They're all 00:24:50.339 --> 00:24:53.380 Christian, and they're all millionaires because 00:24:53.380 --> 00:24:55.240 they got so much money, and they build nuclear 00:24:55.240 --> 00:24:57.640 bombs Monday to Friday. Now, I could go down 00:24:57.640 --> 00:24:59.380 the list around the country. You know this well. 00:24:59.559 --> 00:25:04.099 So this is why I keep saying there's one catch 00:25:04.099 --> 00:25:07.660 to everything you say. You know, I mean, when 00:25:07.660 --> 00:25:09.740 I would talk like this, and I want to know what 00:25:09.740 --> 00:25:11.980 you think about this, everything you said, and 00:25:11.980 --> 00:25:14.579 I say, but that means, folks, we come within 00:25:14.579 --> 00:25:17.200 the hermeneutic of nonviolence of Dr. King and 00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:20.640 Gandhi, that to follow this guy, there's, as 00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:23.740 Dan said, there's no cause, however noble, for 00:25:23.740 --> 00:25:25.700 which we ever support the taking of a single 00:25:25.700 --> 00:25:29.259 human life. We're disciples, so we follow Jesus' 00:25:29.539 --> 00:25:32.079 preference for accepting suffering rather than 00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:35.200 inflicting it, for even being willing to kill. 00:25:35.240 --> 00:25:39.019 be killed rather than to kill anyone. And we're 00:25:39.019 --> 00:25:41.400 giving our lives to stop the killing. Now, am 00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:44.160 I wrong? Is that over the top? I'm trying to 00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:48.259 get to wake up Christians in this world of Christian 00:25:48.259 --> 00:25:51.099 nationalism who are going along and thinking 00:25:51.099 --> 00:25:56.819 they're disciples of Jesus. We're leading humanity 00:25:56.819 --> 00:26:00.140 to the brink of destruction. No, that's very 00:26:00.140 --> 00:26:03.220 real, brother. And I hear what you're saying. 00:26:03.319 --> 00:26:08.440 But you both of us understand that, you know, 00:26:08.460 --> 00:26:11.119 we've both been shaped by the white supremacy 00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:15.759 in America. Jim Crow South. Yes. Oklahoma. Brother 00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:18.079 born in Texas, you come out of Jim Crow, North 00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:21.539 Carolina and so forth. We come together at the 00:26:21.539 --> 00:26:23.680 bottom of the cross with that blood. No doubt 00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:26.480 about that. But you recall, too, during the years 00:26:26.480 --> 00:26:28.500 of slavery, brother, the churches were packed, 00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:32.650 man. Packed. And when they were lynching black 00:26:32.650 --> 00:26:35.829 people, they had 15 ,000 people there and cutting 00:26:35.829 --> 00:26:38.490 all the parts of the body and using the private 00:26:38.490 --> 00:26:41.529 parts to sell and making big money. Those were 00:26:41.529 --> 00:26:43.869 Christians who were doing that. So they got back 00:26:43.869 --> 00:26:47.430 from the gathering of lynching black people. 00:26:47.490 --> 00:26:49.410 They went right back to church and sang some 00:26:49.410 --> 00:26:52.390 of the same hymns and read from the same Bible 00:26:52.390 --> 00:26:55.519 that you and I sing and read. Christians have 00:26:55.519 --> 00:26:59.839 a long history of barbarism, bestiality, gangsterism, 00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:02.539 thuggishness, and so on. And what you saw at 00:27:02.539 --> 00:27:04.559 the White House was just an extension of that, 00:27:04.619 --> 00:27:07.759 especially as it related to nuclear catastrophe, 00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:11.539 as it related to aggressive militarism, which 00:27:11.539 --> 00:27:17.359 is usually a kind of one moment within the imperial 00:27:17.359 --> 00:27:21.720 and capitalist privatizing and extension of profit 00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:27.680 -driven economic systems. But I think the issue, 00:27:27.819 --> 00:27:30.079 though, for me when it comes to nonviolence, 00:27:30.119 --> 00:27:33.839 I don't think nonviolence is the fundamental 00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:39.920 criteria. I think love is. Remember Gandhi. Gandhi 00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:43.940 said, I would rather have someone to engage in 00:27:43.940 --> 00:27:46.759 violence with courage than to have religious 00:27:46.759 --> 00:27:52.130 folk who were cowards. He said cowardice is worse 00:27:52.130 --> 00:27:55.390 than violence. Martin Luther King used to say, 00:27:55.430 --> 00:27:58.130 I'd rather be dead than afraid. I'd rather be 00:27:58.130 --> 00:28:01.950 a corpse than a coward, says Mary Ellen Pleasant 00:28:01.950 --> 00:28:04.450 out of California, who was head of the human 00:28:04.450 --> 00:28:06.609 rights movement. Black woman who gave money to 00:28:06.609 --> 00:28:09.029 John Brown. See, it's complicated. Black woman 00:28:09.029 --> 00:28:10.950 gives money to John Brown. What is John Brown 00:28:10.950 --> 00:28:14.480 doing? Well, out of deep love. He's killing folk. 00:28:14.519 --> 00:28:16.640 See, I don't believe that the killing of an innocent 00:28:16.640 --> 00:28:20.180 person is ever justifiable. I'm with you on that. 00:28:20.440 --> 00:28:22.960 I don't care who it is. I don't care if it's 00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:26.039 John Brown. I don't care if it's Hamas. I don't 00:28:26.039 --> 00:28:27.859 care if it's the IDF. I don't care if it's the 00:28:27.859 --> 00:28:30.039 U .S. Army. I don't care if it's the police. 00:28:30.380 --> 00:28:32.019 I don't care if it's folk killing each other 00:28:32.019 --> 00:28:34.700 in a barbershop. The killing of an innocent life 00:28:34.700 --> 00:28:37.880 is murder. Murder is murder. There's no doubt 00:28:37.880 --> 00:28:41.460 about that. So I think we do agree. But in the 00:28:41.460 --> 00:28:45.119 end, the fundamental criteria is the love. Because 00:28:45.119 --> 00:28:48.740 you see, if nonviolence is viewed as just a strategy 00:28:48.740 --> 00:28:52.759 and a tactic, and so they can agree strategically 00:28:52.759 --> 00:28:55.680 with what you just said, but it doesn't have 00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:58.440 the love in it, then we write back to 1 Corinthians 00:28:58.440 --> 00:29:03.619 13th chapter, man. It could be the best strategy 00:29:03.619 --> 00:29:05.460 and tactic in the world, but without that deep 00:29:05.460 --> 00:29:08.259 love. Now, I know you have that love. You've 00:29:08.259 --> 00:29:10.420 been living that love decade after decade after 00:29:10.420 --> 00:29:12.680 decade. But I would always want to put that, 00:29:12.700 --> 00:29:15.940 make that love center stage as it's connected 00:29:15.940 --> 00:29:19.500 to non -love. Amen. Yes. And now let's, I want 00:29:19.500 --> 00:29:21.819 to ask you one question about Dr. King and love. 00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:25.059 And then that might be the end for now, but I 00:29:25.059 --> 00:29:27.319 will going to continue the conversation later 00:29:27.319 --> 00:29:30.240 on. When you were on before you talked about 00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:32.779 Dr. King's experience in Reedville and it was 00:29:32.779 --> 00:29:35.599 kind of life changing for me. And I really want. 00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:38.420 all the listeners to hear that again. And how 00:29:38.420 --> 00:29:41.140 about this, Cornel, that we frame the question 00:29:41.140 --> 00:29:44.799 or your story in, you know, I've studied, as 00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:48.259 you have, you know, we both studied every word 00:29:48.259 --> 00:29:50.779 of our teacher, Martin King. And, you know, one 00:29:50.779 --> 00:29:53.779 of his phrases, he said over and over and over 00:29:53.779 --> 00:29:57.339 and over again was, unearned suffering love is 00:29:57.339 --> 00:30:00.910 redemptive. That became a kind of a mantra for 00:30:00.910 --> 00:30:02.789 him in the movement and what he was trying to 00:30:02.789 --> 00:30:06.049 teach his people. So I asked you about Dr. King 00:30:06.049 --> 00:30:09.430 the last time and you launched into this incredible 00:30:09.430 --> 00:30:11.930 story from Daddy King about Reedsville. Please 00:30:11.930 --> 00:30:14.089 share that with us again. And for me, I want 00:30:14.089 --> 00:30:17.059 to hear you tell it again. Yeah, but I tell you, 00:30:17.079 --> 00:30:20.460 it always hits me. I was telling you right before, 00:30:20.519 --> 00:30:23.680 I was blessed to share this story with 511 young 00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:26.059 black men who graduated from Morehouse just two 00:30:26.059 --> 00:30:28.599 and a half weeks ago. They were kind enough to 00:30:28.599 --> 00:30:31.599 ask me to be commencement speaker. And of course, 00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:33.259 people think of Morehouse, you think of Benjamin 00:30:33.259 --> 00:30:36.000 Elijah Mays, and you think of Martin Luther King. 00:30:37.789 --> 00:30:40.269 This is the king. This is what I call the radical 00:30:40.269 --> 00:30:43.069 king, of course, in the book that I've put together 00:30:43.069 --> 00:30:45.809 with King's Reflections. Great book. Thank God 00:30:45.809 --> 00:30:49.240 the king of the state allowed me to. to do that 00:30:49.240 --> 00:30:51.380 along with James Melvin Washington's collection. 00:30:51.539 --> 00:30:53.180 They've only had two collections that they've 00:30:53.180 --> 00:30:56.559 given people permission to. James Melvin Washington, 00:30:56.779 --> 00:30:58.579 my dear brother, my best friend in the world, 00:30:58.619 --> 00:31:00.579 was a professor at Union Seminary. A Testament 00:31:00.579 --> 00:31:03.059 of Hope is the name of his, and mine's just called 00:31:03.059 --> 00:31:05.980 The Radical King. But I put the Reidsville story 00:31:05.980 --> 00:31:08.160 at the center, and I did hear the story from 00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:12.259 Andrew Young and Daddy King when he came to Union. 00:31:12.420 --> 00:31:15.559 He spoke way back in the early... early 80s, 00:31:15.559 --> 00:31:18.039 late 70s, when I was just 20 -some years old, 00:31:18.059 --> 00:31:20.380 teaching here at Union, where I'm still teaching 00:31:20.380 --> 00:31:23.519 now. And what was that story? He said they put 00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:26.420 Martin Luther King Jr. in a paddy wagon in the 00:31:26.420 --> 00:31:29.640 dark with a German shepherd. It's just the two 00:31:29.640 --> 00:31:33.039 of them in the dark, and the dog is barking and 00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:35.759 acting as if he's going to try to bite Martin, 00:31:35.759 --> 00:31:40.180 and Martin's caught there in the paddy wagon. 00:31:40.180 --> 00:31:44.839 They're driving from Atlanta. to Stushnow County, 00:31:45.099 --> 00:31:47.299 which is four and a half hours away to take him 00:31:47.299 --> 00:31:51.400 to Reesville Prison. And when he got out of that 00:31:51.400 --> 00:31:54.420 paddy wagon, brother, with the police being so 00:31:54.420 --> 00:31:58.380 cold and cruel to him, Daddy King told me he 00:31:58.380 --> 00:32:05.559 could not hardly walk a straight line. And Daddy 00:32:05.559 --> 00:32:08.339 King said, I had tears in my eyes when I saw 00:32:08.339 --> 00:32:12.779 my son in this condition. All Martin can say 00:32:12.779 --> 00:32:16.660 is this is the cross we must bear for the freedom 00:32:16.660 --> 00:32:20.019 of our people. That's what love is at its most 00:32:20.019 --> 00:32:23.140 concrete form. Reminds you of Kierkegaard's great... 00:32:23.339 --> 00:32:25.839 text works of love one of the few texts he wrote 00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:29.339 his own name on what is works of love it's about 00:32:29.339 --> 00:32:31.799 the need that all of us have to love and be loved 00:32:31.799 --> 00:32:35.440 it's about the deeds of acknowledging that love 00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:39.680 requires tremendous risk and sacrifice but it 00:32:39.680 --> 00:32:42.440 flows from the depths of one's soul it's about 00:32:42.440 --> 00:32:45.480 planting seeds it's about need it's about deed 00:32:45.480 --> 00:32:48.960 it's about seed and you plant those seeds by 00:32:48.960 --> 00:32:53.099 your example by your deeds grounded in the need 00:32:53.099 --> 00:32:56.619 that you have to be loved. And Augustine is right 00:32:56.619 --> 00:33:00.059 in this regard, grounded in the end by the need 00:33:00.059 --> 00:33:03.480 we all have to be connected to something bigger 00:33:03.480 --> 00:33:06.400 than us. And if it's not going to be the love 00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:08.920 of God and love of neighbor and even love of 00:33:08.920 --> 00:33:12.680 enemy, it's more likely going to be love of pleasure. 00:33:13.369 --> 00:33:17.750 in love of status, in love of position, in love 00:33:17.750 --> 00:33:22.089 of domination, in love of subjugation. So we 00:33:22.089 --> 00:33:25.490 got to find the right channel for this deep need 00:33:25.490 --> 00:33:29.029 we have being the kinds of creatures that we 00:33:29.029 --> 00:33:33.190 are. And Martin found it as being a drum major, 00:33:33.309 --> 00:33:38.450 the need to be. first in love, being an extremist. 00:33:38.450 --> 00:33:39.970 Nothing wrong with being an extremist. People 00:33:39.970 --> 00:33:42.450 call me extremist all the time. I said, as long 00:33:42.450 --> 00:33:45.029 as I'm an extremist of love and justice, I hope 00:33:45.029 --> 00:33:50.089 you got the right brother. Wow, brother, I could 00:33:50.089 --> 00:33:52.930 talk with you all day. And so we will have to 00:33:52.930 --> 00:33:55.230 do this again, maybe in a few months down the 00:33:55.230 --> 00:33:57.529 road. How about that? You just let me know. You 00:33:57.529 --> 00:34:00.609 know, it's sooner or later I come running because, 00:34:00.670 --> 00:34:03.089 brother, I love you. I respect you. I embrace 00:34:03.089 --> 00:34:05.789 you. And you just stay strong in what you're 00:34:05.789 --> 00:34:08.250 doing. Oh, thank you. You have a special kind 00:34:08.250 --> 00:34:10.570 of calling. You've been true to it. And it's 00:34:10.570 --> 00:34:13.739 a beautiful thing. To see and behold. And likewise, 00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:15.659 Brother Cornell. Thank you. And I'm going to 00:34:15.659 --> 00:34:17.460 call you and say, it's an emergency. I need to 00:34:17.460 --> 00:34:22.199 talk. If you just stay on for a second, let me 00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:24.619 wrap this up here. I want to thank you officially, 00:34:24.820 --> 00:34:27.139 Brother Cornell West, for speaking with me today. 00:34:27.480 --> 00:34:29.519 And thank you, friends, for listening to this 00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:32.679 Nonviolent Jesus podcast. You can hear more podcasts 00:34:32.679 --> 00:34:36.559 and find other upcoming Zoom programs at BeatitudesCenter 00:34:36.559 --> 00:34:39.659 .org. And please consider offering a donation 00:34:39.659 --> 00:34:43.329 to support this free work. and or please leave 00:34:43.329 --> 00:34:45.809 some positive feedback or review at the National 00:34:45.809 --> 00:34:49.269 Catholic Reporter or Apple or Spotify or wherever. 00:34:49.929 --> 00:34:53.050 So may the God of peace bless us all. Keep on 00:34:53.050 --> 00:34:55.690 following the nonviolent Jesus, everyone, and 00:34:55.690 --> 00:34:56.710 see you next time.