Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm
John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking
with my friend, Dr. Cornel West. This podcast
is a project of www .beatitudecenter .org, where
you can find many other podcasts and regular
Zoom programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and
practicing nonviolence and working for a more
just, more nonviolent world. So as usual, I'd
like to begin with a little prayer. So I invite
you, wherever you are, just to take a deep breath,
just to relax, notice how you're feeling, and
recenter yourself again. And together, as we
begin with our friend, let's enter into the presence
of the God of peace who loves you infinitely
and personally and everyone. And let's welcome
the risen nonviolent Jesus here with us and just
take a moment to ask for whatever grace you need
to follow him ever more faithfully and do God's
will. God of peace, thank you for all the blessings
of life, love, and peace that you give us. Be
with us now as we reflect together on your call
to follow the nonviolent Jesus and seek justice
and make peace. Bless us, inspire us, disarm
us, strengthen us, and send us out anew to do
your will today and do our part. to help end
poverty, racism, greed, injustice, war, nuclear
weapons, fascism, and environmental destruction.
That we might be your holy beatitude people,
your holy peacemakers, and welcome your reign
of universal love, nonviolence, and peace on
earth. In Jesus' name, amen. Well, dear friends,
listeners, it's a great pleasure and a great
blessing to welcome my friend, the esteemed Dr.
Cornel West here with us. Like millions of others,
I consider Cornel West the leading public intellectual
in the United States, maybe the world. For me,
he's right up there with Emerson and W .E .B.
Dubois. Brother Cornel has recently served as
the Dietrich Bonhoeffer Chair at Union Theological
Seminary. and he's the former professor of the
practice of public philosophy at Harvard, professor
emeritus at Princeton University. He graduated
magna cum laude from Harvard in three years and
obtained his M .A. and Ph .D. in philosophy at
Princeton. Cornell has written about 20 books
and edited 13 others, best known for his classic
books, which I hope everybody gets, Race Matters
and Democracy Matters, and his memoir, Brother
West, Living... and loving out loud. His book,
Black Prophetic Fire, is a great book with an
unflinching look at 19th and 20th century African
American leaders and their visionary. Dr. West
has partnered with MasterClass .com to provide
teachings on several influential courses, including
recently a class he did with Pharrell Williams
on empathy. So check out CornelWest .com. It's
a great blessing and joy for me to spend time
with you, brother. So welcome, Brother Cornel
West, to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. Well,
my dear brother, I want to begin by saluting
you. I know you got Brother Rob and Sister Liz
there helping you out, but I want to begin by
saluting you, brother. Your revolutionary sojourn
and prophetic pilgrimage going all the way back
to North Carolina, as I recall, don't I? Yeah.
Born in North Carolina, same town as Max Roach
and Ed Snowden, brother. I mean, you are producing
some towering figures down there in North Carolina,
that little section, man. Thank you, Cornell.
And then, of course, the connections with the
inimitable Daniel. Let us never, ever, ever forget
their witness. Did you never meet them? I met
Brother Daniel. He was up at Le Moyne. Oh, wow.
And I met him. I stayed in his place right before
we had a big... And we talked about poetry. Oh,
wow. Because he was such a towering literary
figure as well as a courageous prophetic figure
as well. But, oh, no, he was an inspiration.
But you have so much barricade in you, though.
I mean, you got the spirit of Jesus. All y 'all
got the spirit of Jesus. We can go on and on.
But you were one of these grands. legatees of
these figures that still at work, visionary,
sacrificial, serving the least of these, smile
on your face with your own style from North Carolina
all the way through your life. Oh, no, that's
real, though. That's why it's always a blessing
just to be in your presence. Hey, this is about
you, man. Thank you. So to the listeners, I'm
going to jump right in and start. where I left
off with Cornell last. And if you don't know
this, Cornell and I did a long Zoom together,
maybe a year and a half or two years ago, which
was mythic. And I recommend everybody go and
watch it. It's for free on the Beatitude Center
YouTube page. I think you just go to YouTube,
type in your email, and you ask for Beatitude
Center email. And then over 100 Zooms come up,
and Cornell is right there at the top. So I'm
picking off where I left off with Cornell a year
and a half ago, because this is going to be a
lifelong conversation. We have a lot to talk
about, the two of us. Cornell, here we are, six
months into the second Trump presidency, and
he's dismantled or trying to. Pretty much anything
good in the country, every advance in civil rights,
voting rights, human rights, health care, education,
environmental protection, and so forth, while
radically increasing tax breaks for billionaires
and billions and billions more for war and the
weapons manufacturers. But what he's really doing,
besides all this evil, is violating. so many
laws and attacking the Constitution at every
chance and bringing down democracy and leading
us all into full -on authoritarianism, oligarchy,
tyranny, fascism, and let's say it, full -on
white supremacy. I wanted to begin by asking
you just to talk about it all, your take on what
we're going through. Yeah, I mean, I think you
laid it out there, though, brother. But as you
know, I mean... Any empire has been about 70
of them since the beginning of the species. United
States number 68. They come and go. They peak.
They begin to decay and decline, usually as a
result of military outreach. We've got, what,
800 military units around the world facilitating
genocide right now in Gaza. pulling back in many
ways and still indirectly connected to genocide
in Sudan. Usually the empires began to connect
that military overreach with corruption of elites
across the board, not just political parties,
but of upper classes and wealthy classes who
began to view life as a gold rush and therefore
end up worshiping the golden calf and transform
the golden rule to he who has the gold will rule
and think the chickens won't come home to roost.
somehow you're not going to reap what you sow.
So it then is connected to an impotence, a sense
of powerlessness and helplessness among the citizenry.
And that's how they end up out of deep frustration
and desperation, calling for a strong man, a
tyrant, a fascist, an authoritarian figure, a
dictator, whatever language you want to use.
But the last thing has to do with a spiritual
and moral vacuum. spiritual and moral emptiness,
which means that the citizenry find it more and
more difficult to be in contact with the best
of what has gone into them. historically, communally,
religiously, intellectually. That's one of the
reasons why the Martin Kings and Dorothy Days
and Philip and Daniel Berrigan's and so forth
are not household words, because they represent
the best of the history of the American empire.
And it's hard for people to get in contact with
their lives, their witnesses, their sacrifice,
their visions, their words, their utterances.
And so people end up having to choose. between
a number of options that have little to do with
the best of the history of their own country,
the history of their own empire, the history
of their own religions or whatever traditions
they're a part of. That's the makings of the
collapse of an empire. And that's what we are
witnessing. the collapse and implosion of the
American empire in real time. And of course,
Trump himself is a major factor, but he's as
much a sign and a symptom. He's not the cause
of it. The cause is the organized greed. The
cause is the weaponized hatred. The cause is
the institutionalized indifference toward the
least of these. You remember Rabbi Hester used
to say what? Indifference to evil is more insidious
than evil itself. that reinforces the unbelievable
levels of the spiritual wickedness, especially
in high places. And so we have to try to just
tell the truth about where we are, but recognize
that it's not really new. I mean, it's already
at work in Melville's Moby Dick. but ahab right
you got the ship and multiracial the queen part
you've got uh the unbelievable obsession with
the whiteness of the well and white supremacy
itself tied to empire tied to predatory capitalist
processes it's tied to very patriarchal and homophobic
and and transphobic sensibilities that lose sight
of the rich sanctity and holiness and dignity
of human beings made in the image of a living
and loving God. Melville saw it way back in 1851,
and there's been attempts to continually speak
to it. And that's why, again, the histories of
the Eugene Debses. The histories of the Vico
Marcantonios and the W .B. Du Bois and the Frederick
Douglases and the Lydia Maria Childs, we can
go on and on. And as you know, it's chocolate
folk, it's vanilla folk, it's all colors, it's
all genders, it's all sexual orientations who
constitutes this prophetic cloud of witnesses.
But that prophetic cloud of witnesses is usually
what? Marginalized, vilified, demonized, incarcerated.
character assassination or literal assassination.
That's been very much the history of prophetic
witness in the American empire. And I think that's
true for any empire, but American empire has
its own distinctive characteristics. We're the
only empire that understands itself to be innocent,
that somehow we're so tied to innocence. James
Baldwin said, what innocence itself is the crime.
Because if you're innocence, then it's blinded.
That wonderful line in Melville's Billy Budd,
probably the greatest short story in the history
of American literature, where he says, innocence
itself is the fundamental form of blindness.
And America's claim to being innocent vis -a
-vis genocide of indigenous people, innocent
vis -a -vis slavery of African peoples, innocent
in terms of domestic violence, innocent in terms
of bosses' violence vis -a -vis workers, and
why it took us so long to have a workers' movement
that can engage in collective bargaining, not
until the 19th. 30s. Argentina had collective
bargaining legalized in the 1860s. Argentina
is not known for being a country on the cutting
edge of social justice, but they beat the American
working class for legal organized collective
bargaining 100 years. That has to do with organized
greed at the top of the robber barons and the
ruling classes that would reshape so much of
America and the world in their own. corporate
predatory capitalist image and view that as normal
and view that as naturalized. Well, here comes
the spirit of Jesus. Here come followers of Jesus.
Here come these disciples of Jesus in a contemporary
form. Saying what? Saying that gold status, position,
spectacle, capitalist power, white supremacist
power, all forms of idolatry and will lead toward
destruction, self -destruction. You can see that
going all the way back from Harriet Tubman to
Martin King. You can see it going all the way
back. to, oh my God, we got so many, the Elijah
Lovejoy, you know, a white brother who graduated
from Princeton Seminary, you know him, who was
killed in East St. Louis trying to get his abolitionist
press off the ground, just shot him dead, and
his brother tried to keep alive his legacy. In
some ways, it's similar to the Berrigan brothers
in the 20th century. Those Lovejoy brothers were
really something else. They ought to be household
words, man. Americans ought to know about their
witness, know about their courage. Very, very
difficult to keep these traditions alive. But
that's what you've been able to do in your life,
and that's what you do in this broadcast. But
in the end, we should never be surprised by evil
or paralyzed by despair, though, brother. Even
when we tell the truth about just how ugly the
situation is, we're blues. We blues people. We
blues Christians. Blues is about what? Telling
the truth about catastrophe. Understanding the
cross as the ultimate catastrophe. But knowing
catastrophe or the cross do not have the last
word. That love is never crushed. The joy is
never eliminated. The courage is never erased.
It's still piercing through. Sometimes just at
the blood at the bottom of that cross. Sometimes
it's piercing through. With you going to jail
85 times and still coming out with a smile. Sometimes
it's Martin getting shot down like a dog in Memphis,
but people responding to his love witness in
such a way and saying, we shall never forget
him and the movement and we shall never cave
in, give up or sell our souls for a mess of pottage.
That's what persists in the best of those of
us who. still have the audacity to be followers
of a Palestinian Jew named Jesus. Amen, brother.
I think you've resolved everything. And we could
end there and just listen to that for the rest
of our lives. Tell you, man, that was brilliant.
Did you say it can't be? How did you say that?
Surprised by evil and paralyzed by despair? We
should never be surprised by evil or paralyzed
by despair. That's brilliant, man. Okay. There's
so much I want to ask you, and we're just going
to have to keep the conversation going in the
years ahead. In all of that level of evil right
now and idolatry, I really want you to say a
word particularly about Christian nationalism,
this heresy and blasphemy that all the stuff
you're talking about is in all the churches.
I don't know how it could be otherwise given.
the depth of evil in the country now. And I mean,
I think it's everywhere. In all the churches,
there's a complacency and a complicity. But of
course, particularly in the white churches, it's
in the Protestant churches, it's in the Catholic
churches, probably in all religions. But let's
look at, for a moment, how Christian nationalism
has, after decades, really flourished now in
the white supremacy and authoritarianism of Trump,
and how this is blasphemy. And brainwashing,
as our friend Jim Lawson said, it's just another
way to spread plantation capitalism and the domination
of billionaires and the corporate military elite.
So I'm going to ask you about Jesus, but first
tell me about this heresy and any thoughts you
had on it. Yeah, I mean, one thing to keep in
mind, as you know, the Constantinian Christianity
begins with the imperial hijacking of the early
church, where institutional Christianity accommodates
itself so readily to empire, to the status quo,
to the powers that be, whatever evil we're talking
about, white supremacy, male supremacy, homophobia,
transphobia, it could be anti -Jewish hatred,
anti -Muslim hatred, whatever, that the institutional
Christianity has always... accommodated itself
in a disproportionate way and yet there's always
in prophetic christians to bring critique to
bear on that accommodation of institutional christianity
in the united states of course because white
supremacy sits at so much of the center of the
founding of the country given the genocidal attacks
on indigenous peoples and enslavement of black
folk leading towards civil war leading toward
jim and jane crow leading toward the forms of
american terror and trauma bombarding peoples
of color that we've always seen. Historical Christianity
in the United States accommodated itself to genocide,
accommodated itself to slavery, accommodated
itself to lynching, accommodated itself to Jim
and Jane Crow, accommodated itself to patriarchy
and so forth. And so in the last 30 or 40 years,
a distinctive form of American fascism, and this
is something that Brother Chris Hedges has been
strong on, you know, his father. himself was
quite a prophetic Christian minister who really
lost his church because of his love of gay brothers
way back in the 1960s. But Chris Hedges, you
know, graduated Harvard Divinity School, one
of the great prophetic forces of our time. You
know, Brother Chris, he's written on this, on
the Christian fascists and the Christian nationalists
accommodating themselves to the American -style
fascism and neo -fascism. that there's no doubt,
what is it, 82 % of fellow right -wing reactionary
Christian evangelical folk voted for Trump. It's
incredible. You say to yourself, I thought y
'all wanted some moral character and moral virtue.
I always thought you were concerned about family
values and so forth. We discover the veil has
been ripped off. That was just empty rhetoric.
You just wanted somebody who was going to push
your positions that reinforce your interests.
My God, I ain't got nothing to do whatsoever
with a Palestinian Jew named Jesus. And you know
that deep down in your heart. All you got to
do is look at your speeches 15, 20, 30 years
ago when you were talking about the family values
and moral character and moral virtue and so forth.
You got a thoroughgoing gangster. He's been a
gangster for 45 years. He's proud of it. He has
no shame. He's explicit about his hatred. He's
explicit about his hostilities. He can't keep
his friends because it's clear that he hasn't
cultivated the capacity to love and be loved.
You almost feel pity on a certain level. And
the charges of the women against him. Oh, my
God. And, you know, he's 30. Cornelius, 30 felony
convictions. I have three. And everybody's telling
me I should run for president now. Okay, well.
But you got felons for the kingdom, for the beloved.
That's right. I was hammering on a nuclear weapon.
So let's talk about Jesus. As you know, I've
called this podcast the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast.
And it's kind of become my life's work. I didn't
know that, you know, decades ago that having
studied God. Gandhi and Dr. King and lived with
Dan Berrigan for so long. And I was obsessed
with nonviolence. And I was putting it together
with following Jesus. And then, you know, I realized,
as Gandhi said. Jesus is the greatest person
of nonviolence in history. And the only people
who don't know that Jesus is nonviolent are Christians.
Poor Gandhi. So it's a stupid question to ask
you, but I just want you to tell me your thoughts
these days about Jesus and what it means to follow
the nonviolent Jesus now. And for the listeners,
everyone is so discouraged. and why we don't
need to be discouraged, but we need to get up
and get out there. So what does discipleship
mean, and what encouragement do you find as you
continue to read the Gospels and try to be an
authentic disciple? Well, you know, I'm blessed
to teach at Union Theological Seminary, which
has been one of the grand prophetic institutions.
It's not pure, pristine. It's got its own challenges,
but it's been one of the great. Places where
I've been blessed to be empowered and inspired.
And I teach class on Dietrich Bonhoeffer and
James Baldwin. Of course, Bonhoeffer's great
text, The Cost of Discipleship, which is basically
a curriculum for the underground seminary fighting
a gangster named Hitler. as Bonhoeffer wrestles
with his profound commitment to nonviolence,
but decides in the end to even join a small group
and try to execute Hitler. So it's a very, very
complicated and complex wrestling that you get
in somebody like a Bonhoeffer. I'm also blessed
to teach a course with my dear brother John Fenomenal
on King and Gandhi and Ambedkar and Malcolm X.
Oh, wow. Oh, yeah, it's a fascinating class.
I didn't know you taught that. In fact, we got
to bring you in. We brought Brother James Lawson
when his book came out. Remember his name, Nonviolence?
Yeah, yeah. We spent three hours with him right
before he died. Yeah, one of my best friends,
yeah. He's towering, towering. He's another figure
ought to be a household name. Incredible guy.
God Almighty. His student, John Lewis, of course,
in some ways. He is much more. well known than
his teacher. But I say all that to say that to
be a follower of Jesus means to take up your
cross, deny yourself and follow him, give everything
inside of you that's been poured into you at
your best, which is the love, the courage, the
integrity, the honesty, focusing on the least
of these, knowing that the world will view you
as foolish, that through the lens of the dominant
tendencies of the world, you'll always be viewed
as as foolish Erasmus is right in praise of folly.
Yes, it is foolish to follow a Palestinian Jew
named Jesus that tells you to lead with love,
that tells you to love your way through. the
darkness, the cruelty, the coldness of the world.
So you're in the world, but not of the world,
that you're not conformed, but transformed by
something bigger than you, a grace that is given
to you, a legacy, a tradition, and memories of
those who were part of the same love train you
tried to stay on. Yeah, but Cornell, I want to
hang in here with me, okay? So I totally agree
with you. And I can't put it that way anymore.
And let me just tell you what happened to me.
So growing up in D .C. at the Pentagon, there's
100 ,000 people planning the end of the world
and killing people around the world. And they
have 100 Bible studies a day and Catholic mass.
They'd all say they're disciples of Jesus. Then
I go to New Mexico and I'm leading a campaign
at Los Alamos where they build all the nuclear
bombs and the churches are packed. They're all
Christian, and they're all millionaires because
they got so much money, and they build nuclear
bombs Monday to Friday. Now, I could go down
the list around the country. You know this well.
So this is why I keep saying there's one catch
to everything you say. You know, I mean, when
I would talk like this, and I want to know what
you think about this, everything you said, and
I say, but that means, folks, we come within
the hermeneutic of nonviolence of Dr. King and
Gandhi, that to follow this guy, there's, as
Dan said, there's no cause, however noble, for
which we ever support the taking of a single
human life. We're disciples, so we follow Jesus'
preference for accepting suffering rather than
inflicting it, for even being willing to kill.
be killed rather than to kill anyone. And we're
giving our lives to stop the killing. Now, am
I wrong? Is that over the top? I'm trying to
get to wake up Christians in this world of Christian
nationalism who are going along and thinking
they're disciples of Jesus. We're leading humanity
to the brink of destruction. No, that's very
real, brother. And I hear what you're saying.
But you both of us understand that, you know,
we've both been shaped by the white supremacy
in America. Jim Crow South. Yes. Oklahoma. Brother
born in Texas, you come out of Jim Crow, North
Carolina and so forth. We come together at the
bottom of the cross with that blood. No doubt
about that. But you recall, too, during the years
of slavery, brother, the churches were packed,
man. Packed. And when they were lynching black
people, they had 15 ,000 people there and cutting
all the parts of the body and using the private
parts to sell and making big money. Those were
Christians who were doing that. So they got back
from the gathering of lynching black people.
They went right back to church and sang some
of the same hymns and read from the same Bible
that you and I sing and read. Christians have
a long history of barbarism, bestiality, gangsterism,
thuggishness, and so on. And what you saw at
the White House was just an extension of that,
especially as it related to nuclear catastrophe,
as it related to aggressive militarism, which
is usually a kind of one moment within the imperial
and capitalist privatizing and extension of profit
-driven economic systems. But I think the issue,
though, for me when it comes to nonviolence,
I don't think nonviolence is the fundamental
criteria. I think love is. Remember Gandhi. Gandhi
said, I would rather have someone to engage in
violence with courage than to have religious
folk who were cowards. He said cowardice is worse
than violence. Martin Luther King used to say,
I'd rather be dead than afraid. I'd rather be
a corpse than a coward, says Mary Ellen Pleasant
out of California, who was head of the human
rights movement. Black woman who gave money to
John Brown. See, it's complicated. Black woman
gives money to John Brown. What is John Brown
doing? Well, out of deep love. He's killing folk.
See, I don't believe that the killing of an innocent
person is ever justifiable. I'm with you on that.
I don't care who it is. I don't care if it's
John Brown. I don't care if it's Hamas. I don't
care if it's the IDF. I don't care if it's the
U .S. Army. I don't care if it's the police.
I don't care if it's folk killing each other
in a barbershop. The killing of an innocent life
is murder. Murder is murder. There's no doubt
about that. So I think we do agree. But in the
end, the fundamental criteria is the love. Because
you see, if nonviolence is viewed as just a strategy
and a tactic, and so they can agree strategically
with what you just said, but it doesn't have
the love in it, then we write back to 1 Corinthians
13th chapter, man. It could be the best strategy
and tactic in the world, but without that deep
love. Now, I know you have that love. You've
been living that love decade after decade after
decade. But I would always want to put that,
make that love center stage as it's connected
to non -love. Amen. Yes. And now let's, I want
to ask you one question about Dr. King and love.
And then that might be the end for now, but I
will going to continue the conversation later
on. When you were on before you talked about
Dr. King's experience in Reedville and it was
kind of life changing for me. And I really want.
all the listeners to hear that again. And how
about this, Cornel, that we frame the question
or your story in, you know, I've studied, as
you have, you know, we both studied every word
of our teacher, Martin King. And, you know, one
of his phrases, he said over and over and over
and over again was, unearned suffering love is
redemptive. That became a kind of a mantra for
him in the movement and what he was trying to
teach his people. So I asked you about Dr. King
the last time and you launched into this incredible
story from Daddy King about Reedsville. Please
share that with us again. And for me, I want
to hear you tell it again. Yeah, but I tell you,
it always hits me. I was telling you right before,
I was blessed to share this story with 511 young
black men who graduated from Morehouse just two
and a half weeks ago. They were kind enough to
ask me to be commencement speaker. And of course,
people think of Morehouse, you think of Benjamin
Elijah Mays, and you think of Martin Luther King.
This is the king. This is what I call the radical
king, of course, in the book that I've put together
with King's Reflections. Great book. Thank God
the king of the state allowed me to. to do that
along with James Melvin Washington's collection.
They've only had two collections that they've
given people permission to. James Melvin Washington,
my dear brother, my best friend in the world,
was a professor at Union Seminary. A Testament
of Hope is the name of his, and mine's just called
The Radical King. But I put the Reidsville story
at the center, and I did hear the story from
Andrew Young and Daddy King when he came to Union.
He spoke way back in the early... early 80s,
late 70s, when I was just 20 -some years old,
teaching here at Union, where I'm still teaching
now. And what was that story? He said they put
Martin Luther King Jr. in a paddy wagon in the
dark with a German shepherd. It's just the two
of them in the dark, and the dog is barking and
acting as if he's going to try to bite Martin,
and Martin's caught there in the paddy wagon.
They're driving from Atlanta. to Stushnow County,
which is four and a half hours away to take him
to Reesville Prison. And when he got out of that
paddy wagon, brother, with the police being so
cold and cruel to him, Daddy King told me he
could not hardly walk a straight line. And Daddy
King said, I had tears in my eyes when I saw
my son in this condition. All Martin can say
is this is the cross we must bear for the freedom
of our people. That's what love is at its most
concrete form. Reminds you of Kierkegaard's great...
text works of love one of the few texts he wrote
his own name on what is works of love it's about
the need that all of us have to love and be loved
it's about the deeds of acknowledging that love
requires tremendous risk and sacrifice but it
flows from the depths of one's soul it's about
planting seeds it's about need it's about deed
it's about seed and you plant those seeds by
your example by your deeds grounded in the need
that you have to be loved. And Augustine is right
in this regard, grounded in the end by the need
we all have to be connected to something bigger
than us. And if it's not going to be the love
of God and love of neighbor and even love of
enemy, it's more likely going to be love of pleasure.
in love of status, in love of position, in love
of domination, in love of subjugation. So we
got to find the right channel for this deep need
we have being the kinds of creatures that we
are. And Martin found it as being a drum major,
the need to be. first in love, being an extremist.
Nothing wrong with being an extremist. People
call me extremist all the time. I said, as long
as I'm an extremist of love and justice, I hope
you got the right brother. Wow, brother, I could
talk with you all day. And so we will have to
do this again, maybe in a few months down the
road. How about that? You just let me know. You
know, it's sooner or later I come running because,
brother, I love you. I respect you. I embrace
you. And you just stay strong in what you're
doing. Oh, thank you. You have a special kind
of calling. You've been true to it. And it's
a beautiful thing. To see and behold. And likewise,
Brother Cornell. Thank you. And I'm going to
call you and say, it's an emergency. I need to
talk. If you just stay on for a second, let me
wrap this up here. I want to thank you officially,
Brother Cornell West, for speaking with me today.
And thank you, friends, for listening to this
Nonviolent Jesus podcast. You can hear more podcasts
and find other upcoming Zoom programs at BeatitudesCenter
.org. And please consider offering a donation
to support this free work. and or please leave
some positive feedback or review at the National
Catholic Reporter or Apple or Spotify or wherever.
So may the God of peace bless us all. Keep on
following the nonviolent Jesus, everyone, and
see you next time.