WEBVTT 00:00:15.339 --> 00:00:18.260 Welcome to the Nonviolent Jesus Podcast. I'm 00:00:18.260 --> 00:00:20.679 John, Father John Deere, and today I'm speaking 00:00:20.679 --> 00:00:24.699 with my friend Kathy Kelly. This podcast is a 00:00:24.699 --> 00:00:29.879 project of www .beatitudecenter .org, where you 00:00:29.879 --> 00:00:33.039 can find many other wonderful podcasts and regular 00:00:33.039 --> 00:00:36.299 Zoom programs on the nonviolence of Jesus and 00:00:36.299 --> 00:00:38.880 practicing nonviolence and working for a more 00:00:38.880 --> 00:00:43.340 just, more nonviolent world. So I like to always 00:00:43.340 --> 00:00:46.439 begin with a little prayer. So I invite everyone, 00:00:46.600 --> 00:00:49.079 wherever you are, to just take a deep breath 00:00:49.079 --> 00:00:53.719 and just relax and notice how you're feeling 00:00:53.719 --> 00:00:58.420 and center yourself again. And together, let's 00:00:58.420 --> 00:01:01.060 all enter into the presence of the God of peace 00:01:01.060 --> 00:01:06.159 who loves you infinitely and personally and everyone. 00:01:06.659 --> 00:01:09.400 And let's welcome the risen nonviolent Jesus 00:01:09.400 --> 00:01:13.489 here with us. Just take a moment to ask for whatever 00:01:13.489 --> 00:01:17.090 grace you need to follow Jesus ever more faithfully 00:01:17.090 --> 00:01:26.329 and do God's will of peace. God of peace, thank 00:01:26.329 --> 00:01:29.010 you for all the blessings of life, love, and 00:01:29.010 --> 00:01:32.189 peace that you give us. Be with us now as we 00:01:32.189 --> 00:01:35.700 reflect together. on your call to be peacemakers, 00:01:35.799 --> 00:01:38.680 to follow the nonviolent Jesus, and work for 00:01:38.680 --> 00:01:41.719 a more nonviolent, more just world. Bless us, 00:01:41.859 --> 00:01:45.980 inspire us, disarm us, strengthen us, and send 00:01:45.980 --> 00:01:49.180 us out to do your will, that we might do our 00:01:49.180 --> 00:01:53.459 part to help end war. and poverty, racism, greed, 00:01:53.799 --> 00:01:57.260 and all injustice, environment, violence, nuclear 00:01:57.260 --> 00:02:00.140 weapons, and fascism, environmental destruction, 00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:03.180 that we might be your holy beatitude people, 00:02:03.420 --> 00:02:07.099 that we might fulfill our vocations to be your 00:02:07.099 --> 00:02:10.419 holy peacemakers, and welcome your reign of universal 00:02:10.419 --> 00:02:14.219 love, nonviolence, and peace on earth. In Jesus' 00:02:14.259 --> 00:02:17.969 name, amen. It's a great pleasure to welcome 00:02:17.969 --> 00:02:22.030 today my friend Kathy Kelly, longtime peace activist, 00:02:22.349 --> 00:02:26.430 author, and Nobel Peace Prize nominee. As we 00:02:26.430 --> 00:02:29.289 record this, Kathy is participating in and helping 00:02:29.289 --> 00:02:33.169 to coordinate a 40 -day fast for an end to the 00:02:33.169 --> 00:02:37.250 U .S.-backed Israeli genocide in Gaza, which 00:02:37.250 --> 00:02:41.169 her fast began on May 28th. Kathy Kelly has traveled 00:02:41.169 --> 00:02:44.430 the world to the places bombed and attacked by 00:02:44.430 --> 00:02:47.719 our country. the United States, over the last 00:02:47.719 --> 00:02:50.759 three and four decades in an effort to make peace 00:02:50.759 --> 00:02:53.620 and love enemies, more than any other person 00:02:53.620 --> 00:02:56.819 I know. With voices in the wilderness, friends, 00:02:56.939 --> 00:03:03.240 from 1996 to 2003, she traveled 27 times to Iraq, 00:03:03.439 --> 00:03:07.099 defying the economic sanctions. I asked Kathy 00:03:07.099 --> 00:03:11.020 to lead our 1999 Fellowship of Reconciliation 00:03:11.020 --> 00:03:14.139 delegation to Iraq with several Nobel Peace Prize 00:03:14.139 --> 00:03:16.919 winners, one of the greatest experiences of our 00:03:16.919 --> 00:03:20.819 lives. She was in Iraq throughout the 2003 shock 00:03:20.819 --> 00:03:23.639 and awe bombing and initial weeks of the U .S. 00:03:23.659 --> 00:03:26.969 invasion. She has joined subsequent delegations 00:03:26.969 --> 00:03:30.370 to the West Bank's Jenin camp in Palestine in 00:03:30.370 --> 00:03:34.469 2002, during and after those Israeli attacks, 00:03:34.849 --> 00:03:39.689 was in Lebanon during the 2006 summer war between 00:03:39.689 --> 00:03:44.030 Israel and Hezbollah, and to Gaza in 2009 during 00:03:44.030 --> 00:03:48.189 Operation Cast Lead, and following the 2013 Operation 00:03:48.189 --> 00:03:52.349 Pillar of Defense. She made over two dozen trips 00:03:52.349 --> 00:03:57.389 to Afghanistan. from 2010 to 2019, living with 00:03:57.389 --> 00:04:00.129 young Afghan peace volunteers in a working -class 00:04:00.129 --> 00:04:03.729 neighborhood in Kabul. Kathy Kelly is board president 00:04:03.729 --> 00:04:06.629 of World Beyond War and in the last few years 00:04:06.629 --> 00:04:10.490 co -coordinated the Merchants of Death War Crimes 00:04:10.490 --> 00:04:14.030 Tribunal. Since the Taliban takeover of Afghanistan, 00:04:14.590 --> 00:04:17.810 she has co -coordinated an international network 00:04:17.810 --> 00:04:21.089 to assist young Afghans forced to flee their 00:04:21.089 --> 00:04:24.329 country. It's a great pleasure. and a blessing 00:04:24.329 --> 00:04:27.889 for me to welcome my friend Kathy Kelly. Kathy, 00:04:28.009 --> 00:04:31.149 thank you for joining me on this podcast. Well, 00:04:31.250 --> 00:04:33.889 thank you, John. I'm so glad that your podcasts 00:04:33.889 --> 00:04:37.490 are reaching many people and that your commitment 00:04:37.490 --> 00:04:40.709 to being a practitioner of nonviolence following 00:04:40.709 --> 00:04:43.529 the nonviolent Jesus still reaches me. Thank 00:04:43.529 --> 00:04:46.230 you. Thank you, Kathy. Well, we're going to dive 00:04:46.230 --> 00:04:50.360 right into it. So let's start. Everybody take 00:04:50.360 --> 00:04:52.300 a deep breath. We're going to start with the 00:04:52.300 --> 00:04:55.600 horrific U .S.-funded Israeli genocide in Gaza, 00:04:55.819 --> 00:05:00.300 which has killed, you know, at least 56 ,000 00:05:00.300 --> 00:05:03.319 people in Gaza since the horrific Hamas attack 00:05:03.319 --> 00:05:08.600 on October 7, 2023 that killed 1 ,195 Israelis. 00:05:09.259 --> 00:05:11.800 So, Kathy, you and our friends have been fasting 00:05:11.800 --> 00:05:15.360 since May 28th, I think, and intend to fast. 00:05:15.360 --> 00:05:19.970 Actually, May 22nd. May 22nd. since May 22nd, 00:05:19.970 --> 00:05:23.750 and you hope to go through 40 days. But there 00:05:23.750 --> 00:05:26.389 are some 750 people around the country and the 00:05:26.389 --> 00:05:29.350 world doing shorter fasts in solidarity with 00:05:29.350 --> 00:05:31.970 you and others. But about a dozen of you are 00:05:31.970 --> 00:05:35.370 keeping vigil outside the United Nations and 00:05:35.370 --> 00:05:38.290 marching in New York. It was organized by our 00:05:38.290 --> 00:05:40.529 friends at Veterans for Peace, along with Friends 00:05:40.529 --> 00:05:43.009 of Seville. So let me start by asking you in 00:05:43.009 --> 00:05:45.829 your own words to tell us why you're fasting 00:05:45.829 --> 00:05:49.829 and about the fast for peace. Well, you know, 00:05:49.829 --> 00:05:53.310 John, a lot of times when you engage in a fast, 00:05:53.610 --> 00:05:57.819 people turn for you. And then you have the chance 00:05:57.819 --> 00:06:01.040 to say, oh, but what about? And I think that 00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:03.319 what about question is so important right now 00:06:03.319 --> 00:06:06.439 concerning Gaza, because, you know, I wake up 00:06:06.439 --> 00:06:08.879 every morning and there's electricity and clean 00:06:08.879 --> 00:06:12.480 water to drink. And I haven't worried about snipers 00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:16.519 killing children that I might be caring for overnight. 00:06:16.699 --> 00:06:19.399 I haven't had to worry about walking through 00:06:19.399 --> 00:06:23.079 rubble or all of the contaminants of bomb residue. 00:06:23.699 --> 00:06:27.389 You know, in short, we. When we try to limit 00:06:27.389 --> 00:06:30.589 ourselves to something similar to the caloric 00:06:30.589 --> 00:06:33.629 intake of people in Gaza right now, we don't 00:06:33.629 --> 00:06:37.250 have even a tiny fraction of the other horrific 00:06:37.250 --> 00:06:44.250 and I think deliberate attacks, especially being 00:06:44.250 --> 00:06:47.949 waged against children. So we must call attention 00:06:47.949 --> 00:06:55.029 to it. The destabilizing effort to relocate people. 00:06:55.689 --> 00:06:58.709 and force them out of their land has continued 00:06:58.709 --> 00:07:02.910 worsening every single day since we began this 00:07:02.910 --> 00:07:06.569 fast. And you can see on the faces of people 00:07:06.569 --> 00:07:09.870 that are staffers working at the United Nations, 00:07:09.889 --> 00:07:14.170 they know. And there's, I think, a great sense 00:07:14.170 --> 00:07:17.730 of conscience burdening them because there are 00:07:17.730 --> 00:07:21.709 things people at the United Nations could do. 00:07:22.490 --> 00:07:24.990 And it doesn't mean that those wouldn't be very 00:07:24.990 --> 00:07:28.329 difficult things to do, but we think of the risks 00:07:28.329 --> 00:07:31.269 that people like Dennis Halliday and Hans von 00:07:31.269 --> 00:07:34.930 Sponek took when they were employed by the UN 00:07:34.930 --> 00:07:38.730 in very prestigious jobs, both of them as undersecretary 00:07:38.730 --> 00:07:42.089 generals of the UN with regard to Iraq. And when 00:07:42.089 --> 00:07:45.029 they saw children starving in Iraq again and 00:07:45.029 --> 00:07:47.589 again, when they recognized that, you know, in 00:07:47.589 --> 00:07:52.540 Iraq, the... Pediatrics wards were like death 00:07:52.540 --> 00:07:56.300 rows for infants. They resigned their posts one 00:07:56.300 --> 00:08:00.920 after another. So what could the UN do now? There 00:08:00.920 --> 00:08:06.259 is a resolution called Uniting for Peace. And 00:08:06.259 --> 00:08:09.180 it's a very, very important resolution because 00:08:09.180 --> 00:08:14.220 when it's invoked, then even if there has been... 00:08:14.519 --> 00:08:18.579 a veto of a ceasefire issued within the Security 00:08:18.579 --> 00:08:22.300 Council, the nations of the General Assembly 00:08:22.300 --> 00:08:27.519 could bypass that veto, more or less overrule 00:08:27.519 --> 00:08:30.459 it. And that's what we're really hoping for. 00:08:32.429 --> 00:08:36.529 countries of Ireland and Pakistan and Spain and 00:08:36.529 --> 00:08:40.429 Slovenia, immediately after the last U .S. veto 00:08:40.429 --> 00:08:44.470 of a Security Council resolution, filed for a 00:08:44.470 --> 00:08:48.769 debate. And in such a debate, it's possible that 00:08:48.769 --> 00:08:51.409 the countries could say, you know, there is one 00:08:51.409 --> 00:08:54.990 country that is preventing the achievement of 00:08:54.990 --> 00:08:58.950 peace. And, you know, in our case, it would be 00:08:58.950 --> 00:09:03.019 the United States partnering. partnering with 00:09:03.019 --> 00:09:07.360 Israel in its war. Right now, a war UNICEF calls 00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:10.559 a war against children. So there's a supposed 00:09:10.559 --> 00:09:14.620 level of suspense, but there's also civil society 00:09:14.620 --> 00:09:18.059 arising all around the world to protect people 00:09:18.059 --> 00:09:22.940 in Gaza. And that's very impressive. Kathy, by 00:09:22.940 --> 00:09:25.759 the time this airs at the end of June, I'm thinking 00:09:25.759 --> 00:09:29.649 the fast may be done. And unfortunately, I'm 00:09:29.649 --> 00:09:32.710 hoping it would be over, but I doubt it. So I 00:09:32.710 --> 00:09:35.250 just want to ask you there about any thoughts 00:09:35.250 --> 00:09:37.830 or suggestions to our thousands of listeners 00:09:37.830 --> 00:09:43.009 about what folks can do. And I would think that 00:09:43.009 --> 00:09:46.830 would begin with educating ourselves about Gaza 00:09:46.830 --> 00:09:50.429 and the genocide and talking about it, educating 00:09:50.429 --> 00:09:52.549 others. But maybe you have some more specific 00:09:52.549 --> 00:09:56.159 things. Well, I certainly agree with you, John, 00:09:56.220 --> 00:10:01.539 about education being so crucial. As we ask elected 00:10:01.539 --> 00:10:04.980 officials or United Nations representatives to 00:10:04.980 --> 00:10:08.080 take more of a risk, then, of course, we have 00:10:08.080 --> 00:10:10.799 to consult with ourselves. Is there a greater 00:10:10.799 --> 00:10:14.299 risk that I might be willing to take? And what 00:10:14.299 --> 00:10:17.019 I've noticed is that in every city around the 00:10:17.019 --> 00:10:21.570 country. Very strong grassroots efforts are happening. 00:10:21.970 --> 00:10:26.669 In New York, people just today demonstrated in 00:10:26.669 --> 00:10:29.870 front of the Maersk company, that's M -A -E -R 00:10:29.870 --> 00:10:34.269 -S -K, and said, stop loading ships with weapons 00:10:34.269 --> 00:10:37.169 that are taken to Israel. And I think people 00:10:37.169 --> 00:10:40.110 can go in front of the corporations in this country 00:10:40.110 --> 00:10:43.090 that manufacture these hideous weapons. You know, 00:10:43.149 --> 00:10:47.340 we found that people were being lured to... get 00:10:47.340 --> 00:10:51.620 food at hubs of food distribution that had been 00:10:51.620 --> 00:10:54.100 set up by the United States and Israel through 00:10:54.100 --> 00:10:57.179 this Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. And when they 00:10:57.179 --> 00:11:00.580 got there, they were being shot at by the Israeli 00:11:00.580 --> 00:11:05.200 Navy, by Israeli drones, and by tank -fired missiles. 00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:08.960 Many of those weapons have been manufactured 00:11:08.960 --> 00:11:13.659 here in the United States. And so if anyone listening 00:11:13.659 --> 00:11:18.120 lives anywhere near a Raytheon or a Boeing or 00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:22.299 Lockheed Martin or General Atomics factory, it's 00:11:22.299 --> 00:11:25.500 crucial to go to those places, hold up signs, 00:11:25.840 --> 00:11:29.600 talk to the workers and ask people to stop that 00:11:29.600 --> 00:11:32.659 kind of production. And of course, to go to the 00:11:32.659 --> 00:11:36.340 elected representatives and tell them that. you 00:11:36.340 --> 00:11:40.399 will have a long remembrance of how they are 00:11:40.399 --> 00:11:43.399 voting during this time of genocide and that 00:11:43.399 --> 00:11:47.779 any elected representatives who favor killing 00:11:47.779 --> 00:11:51.919 children, holding children accountable for what 00:11:51.919 --> 00:11:55.019 is happening in Israel and Palestine and the 00:11:55.019 --> 00:11:58.039 occupied Palestinian territories, that those 00:11:58.039 --> 00:12:00.639 people ought not to be governing this country. 00:12:01.529 --> 00:12:04.289 Kathy, as you know, one of the great voices that 00:12:04.289 --> 00:12:07.809 we're hearing from Palestine is Reverend Munther 00:12:07.809 --> 00:12:13.149 Isaac of Bethlehem, who gave the sermon, Christ 00:12:13.149 --> 00:12:16.340 and the Rebel, that went... viral around the 00:12:16.340 --> 00:12:18.320 world. And he now has a book out called Christ 00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:20.659 and the Rebel, and I'm getting him to be on this 00:12:20.659 --> 00:12:24.120 podcast. He's been calling all Christians in 00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:26.639 the U .S. to speak out against the U .S. funding 00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:29.840 for Israeli genocide. So I wanted to ask you 00:12:29.840 --> 00:12:32.500 about that. In particular, what would your message 00:12:32.500 --> 00:12:36.360 be to the churches, to Christians, like Munther, 00:12:36.460 --> 00:12:39.759 about, hey, folks, how can we be following the 00:12:39.759 --> 00:12:43.659 nonviolent Jesus and be silent? on what's happening 00:12:43.659 --> 00:12:46.860 over there. And while I'm at it, just for the 00:12:46.860 --> 00:12:49.879 record, your thoughts on where the nonviolent 00:12:49.879 --> 00:12:52.759 Jesus and the God of peace are in all of this. 00:12:54.059 --> 00:12:58.440 Well, I think about how Pope Francis truly was 00:12:58.440 --> 00:13:02.190 a symbol of unity. Yes. Christians and others 00:13:02.190 --> 00:13:04.230 all throughout the world. And I see Pope Leo 00:13:04.230 --> 00:13:07.929 entering in that direction as well. But for instance, 00:13:07.990 --> 00:13:12.090 here in New York, we've gone to the, every Sunday, 00:13:12.190 --> 00:13:15.809 gone to St. Patrick's Cathedral, and you don't 00:13:15.809 --> 00:13:19.389 hear the hierarchs in New York speaking out. 00:13:19.470 --> 00:13:22.529 So it's really dependent on people in the pews 00:13:22.529 --> 00:13:26.190 to say, look, we do follow the nonviolent Jesus, 00:13:26.269 --> 00:13:29.980 and we will speak out, even if the... people 00:13:29.980 --> 00:13:33.879 appointed to lead us are themselves perhaps not 00:13:33.879 --> 00:13:37.500 so able to do that for whatever reasons of compromised 00:13:37.500 --> 00:13:41.820 conscience they might have. So I think the line 00:13:41.820 --> 00:13:44.860 that it's important to remember is that the means 00:13:44.860 --> 00:13:51.639 you use determines the end you get. And if you 00:13:51.639 --> 00:13:57.879 use means of silence or indifference or changing 00:13:57.879 --> 00:14:01.519 the subject, then that's what you'll get in the 00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:04.580 end, you know, indifference and silence. But 00:14:04.580 --> 00:14:08.799 if we use means that are kindly, compassionate, 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:12.899 but very determined, then I think we can reach 00:14:12.899 --> 00:14:16.779 an end similar to what happened with South Africa. 00:14:16.899 --> 00:14:19.759 You know, eventually the nations of the world 00:14:19.759 --> 00:14:23.100 were able to say to the South African apartheid 00:14:23.100 --> 00:14:26.539 government, you can no longer participate in 00:14:26.539 --> 00:14:29.720 the family of nations. And then Nelson Mandela 00:14:29.720 --> 00:14:33.500 was released from prison. So we're hoping that 00:14:33.500 --> 00:14:38.980 that sort of playbook would be reenacted, that 00:14:38.980 --> 00:14:42.580 the countries of the world will, out of frustration 00:14:42.580 --> 00:14:46.039 but also out of conscience, say to the United 00:14:46.039 --> 00:14:49.779 States and Israel, if Israel keeps flouting international 00:14:49.779 --> 00:14:53.120 law, the countries of the world can't afford. 00:14:53.850 --> 00:14:57.289 to see the edifice of international law chipped 00:14:57.289 --> 00:15:00.330 away at because a few countries refuse to abide 00:15:00.330 --> 00:15:04.950 by it. Israel has thermonuclear weapons. That 00:15:04.950 --> 00:15:08.350 in itself is in violation of international law 00:15:08.350 --> 00:15:11.269 because they've never declared themselves to 00:15:11.269 --> 00:15:15.850 be a nuclear power. And Israel's violations of... 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:19.940 International law happened every time they attack 00:15:19.940 --> 00:15:23.720 civilians who've already been forcibly displaced. 00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:28.220 And so we've got the International Criminal Court 00:15:28.220 --> 00:15:35.179 stating that Israel's leaders are in violation 00:15:35.179 --> 00:15:39.559 and ought to be brought before a court. But the 00:15:39.559 --> 00:15:41.659 United States has said, well, then let's sanction. 00:15:42.299 --> 00:15:45.220 the jurists in the International Criminal Court. 00:15:45.399 --> 00:15:48.000 We've got the United Nations saying, we know 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:51.559 how to distribute this food. And the United States 00:15:51.559 --> 00:15:54.440 says, well, let's sanction the United Nations 00:15:54.440 --> 00:15:57.700 Food Distribution Group. It's called UNRWA, United 00:15:57.700 --> 00:16:01.980 Nations Relief and Works Association. So I think 00:16:01.980 --> 00:16:04.820 in order to give teeth to the resolutions which 00:16:04.820 --> 00:16:08.759 have been made and to denunciations which are 00:16:08.759 --> 00:16:11.799 continually being made. Israel and the United 00:16:11.799 --> 00:16:16.480 States must be held accountable. Can people in 00:16:16.480 --> 00:16:20.879 the pews of the churches accomplish that? I believe 00:16:20.879 --> 00:16:24.299 that with constant education, with parishioners 00:16:24.299 --> 00:16:27.580 saying, okay, we're going to have a Palestine 00:16:27.580 --> 00:16:31.080 -focused group. We're going to read Pastor Munter 00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:34.179 Isaac's Christ in the Rubble. There is a tremendous 00:16:34.179 --> 00:16:37.539 accomplishment that is available to Catholics 00:16:37.539 --> 00:16:41.299 throughout the United States. That's great. Thank 00:16:41.299 --> 00:16:44.000 you, Kathy. I want to step back and ask you some 00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:46.500 more general questions about this whole life 00:16:46.500 --> 00:16:49.480 of peacemaking you've had, about solidarity, 00:16:49.860 --> 00:16:53.279 loving the enemy, and grief. And I want to begin 00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:59.940 with, I think I told you this, I never forgot 00:16:59.940 --> 00:17:02.919 when you and I and our friends went to Baghdad 00:17:02.919 --> 00:17:06.559 in 1999, and you had organized the whole trip. 00:17:07.349 --> 00:17:10.049 And that first night, the welcome dinner with 00:17:10.049 --> 00:17:13.690 some of the great leaders, I think it was the 00:17:13.690 --> 00:17:17.009 great woman from Kerr who was later assassinated 00:17:17.009 --> 00:17:21.390 during the 2003 war. One of the great saints. 00:17:21.549 --> 00:17:25.630 And she began her welcome by saying, if you come 00:17:25.630 --> 00:17:28.109 to stand in solidarity with us here in Iraq, 00:17:28.329 --> 00:17:31.690 you will suffer because we are suffering. And 00:17:31.690 --> 00:17:34.230 I thought that was amazing, even though it's 00:17:34.230 --> 00:17:37.859 so obvious. Your whole life. as I look at you, 00:17:37.940 --> 00:17:40.839 Kathy, has been one long attempt at living in 00:17:40.839 --> 00:17:43.460 solidarity with the peoples being killed and 00:17:43.460 --> 00:17:46.319 threatened by our country. And that is extended 00:17:46.319 --> 00:17:49.640 to the people of Central America, Iraq, Afghanistan, 00:17:50.099 --> 00:17:53.500 Palestine, Yemen, and many other places. So I 00:17:53.500 --> 00:17:57.119 wanted, because it's such at the heart of, I 00:17:57.119 --> 00:18:00.980 think, being human, nonviolence, peacemaking. 00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:06.180 the gospel, this kind of living solidarity beyond 00:18:06.180 --> 00:18:09.039 borders. I wondered if you could reflect with 00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:12.720 us about that for a moment. Well, I remember 00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:17.460 Margaret Hassan trying so, yeah, she was from 00:18:17.460 --> 00:18:20.339 Ireland and she married an Iraqi man. And she 00:18:20.339 --> 00:18:24.579 tried so hard to get water to people, big, huge 00:18:24.579 --> 00:18:27.819 bladders of water. And the idea that she would 00:18:27.819 --> 00:18:32.619 be kidnapped and tortured and killed. It was 00:18:32.619 --> 00:18:38.980 so astonishing to me. And yet her life was a 00:18:38.980 --> 00:18:42.579 well -lived life, wasn't it? Yeah. And I think 00:18:42.579 --> 00:18:47.579 about Dorothea Soella. Yeah. And she was a theologian 00:18:47.579 --> 00:18:50.579 who said, yes, raise the lament. She thought 00:18:50.579 --> 00:18:53.640 it was so important never to skip that stage 00:18:53.640 --> 00:18:57.759 of raising the lament, but then follow it up 00:18:57.759 --> 00:19:03.509 by organizing. I think about Phil Berrigan, who 00:19:03.509 --> 00:19:06.690 used to say, don't get tired, don't give up. 00:19:07.589 --> 00:19:12.910 How do we best raise the lament? It really changes 00:19:12.910 --> 00:19:19.109 all the time. I remember as a teenager seeing 00:19:19.109 --> 00:19:23.400 the photo of a young Vietnamese girl. And she 00:19:23.400 --> 00:19:27.079 was running down the street naked, agonized because 00:19:27.079 --> 00:19:30.579 napalm had been sprayed on her and her brother. 00:19:30.660 --> 00:19:33.279 And these little children were literally running 00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:37.339 away from the U .S. troops. And I think that 00:19:37.339 --> 00:19:41.859 little girl's photo, that iconic photo, helped 00:19:41.859 --> 00:19:47.519 to end a war. But lately, so many of us have 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:52.380 seen on our screens, on our phones, the pictures. 00:19:52.910 --> 00:19:57.670 of razan children silhouetted in flames. I think 00:19:57.670 --> 00:20:01.130 of a little girl named Varda al -Khalil. And 00:20:01.130 --> 00:20:04.809 she and her family were in a school courtyard. 00:20:05.130 --> 00:20:09.009 So they're forced into a courtyard living in 00:20:09.009 --> 00:20:12.910 tents. And the tents were bombed, an aerial bombardment 00:20:12.910 --> 00:20:16.529 by the Israeli defense forces. And this child 00:20:16.529 --> 00:20:20.170 lost her mother and five of her siblings. Her 00:20:20.170 --> 00:20:24.210 father was terribly injured. And she survived. 00:20:24.670 --> 00:20:30.650 But ought not her picture at least start a resolution 00:20:30.650 --> 00:20:35.210 toward a ceasefire in our time? So I guess, you 00:20:35.210 --> 00:20:38.430 know, when we hear Dorothea Soales say, raise 00:20:38.430 --> 00:20:41.569 the lament, we must do that. But we must also 00:20:41.569 --> 00:20:46.049 keep trying to figure out how can we best organize 00:20:46.049 --> 00:20:50.329 to make a difference. That's so helpful, the 00:20:50.329 --> 00:20:54.490 great theologian. Dorothea Soleil. So following 00:20:54.490 --> 00:20:56.950 up on that, it's a similar kind of question I 00:20:56.950 --> 00:21:00.329 want to ask you about Jesus' teaching and commandment 00:21:00.329 --> 00:21:01.970 in the Sermon on the Mount, love your enemies. 00:21:02.670 --> 00:21:06.289 And you can tie that in with your global solidarity. 00:21:06.509 --> 00:21:10.349 So the flip side is back home organizing and 00:21:10.349 --> 00:21:13.619 speaking out here in the U .S. You know, Kathy, 00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:15.279 I don't know if we ever talked about this, but 00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:18.259 no one ever told me that I had to become an organizer. 00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:22.279 But it's like a requirement today for every peace 00:21:22.279 --> 00:21:24.259 activist, not just marching. You have to become 00:21:24.259 --> 00:21:28.079 an organizer. But to frame it this way, Kathy, 00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:30.900 if you can hang in here with me, I think at the 00:21:30.900 --> 00:21:33.319 heart of the nonviolent Jesus' greatest campaign 00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:36.000 speech, the Sermon on the Mount, is that commandment, 00:21:36.019 --> 00:21:38.920 love your enemies. And that everybody gets it 00:21:38.920 --> 00:21:41.180 wrong because we all think, oh, that means that. 00:21:41.900 --> 00:21:45.059 Person across the street I don't like. It's nation 00:21:45.059 --> 00:21:49.880 state language. It's your nation. It's the people 00:21:49.880 --> 00:21:53.460 targeted by your nation for death. Jesus says 00:21:53.460 --> 00:21:55.920 you go and love and stand with those people. 00:21:56.279 --> 00:21:58.680 And that's what you have tried to do as you've 00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:01.420 embodied the Sermon on the Mount. So I want to 00:22:01.420 --> 00:22:03.779 ask you to reflect because we don't hear enough 00:22:03.779 --> 00:22:08.210 about the central teaching of Jesus. To love 00:22:08.210 --> 00:22:10.130 the enemies of the United States. And there's 00:22:10.130 --> 00:22:12.930 a lot of them, unfortunately, including Iraq, 00:22:13.130 --> 00:22:15.710 Afghanistan, Vietnam, Central America, but now 00:22:15.710 --> 00:22:18.970 Palestine for all these years and the children 00:22:18.970 --> 00:22:23.529 of Gaza. So we're talking about here a global, 00:22:23.569 --> 00:22:27.349 universal, nonviolent love. Anything you want 00:22:27.349 --> 00:22:30.480 to share with us about that? Well, John, isn't 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:32.559 it interesting that the people who would have 00:22:32.559 --> 00:22:35.779 first heard Jesus' teachings really believed 00:22:35.779 --> 00:22:39.079 that the end of the world was coming? And, I 00:22:39.079 --> 00:22:43.380 mean, they were wrong. Here we are. But now we 00:22:43.380 --> 00:22:49.259 stand in the face of three enormous threats to 00:22:49.259 --> 00:22:53.079 human survival. Nuclear annihilation, the possibility 00:22:53.079 --> 00:22:57.619 of more pandemics, and... Of course, ecological 00:22:57.619 --> 00:23:02.440 catastrophe. And so, in a way, that should make 00:23:02.440 --> 00:23:06.740 it easier, I think, for us to consider love of 00:23:06.740 --> 00:23:10.099 enemy on the nation -state level. Because don't 00:23:10.099 --> 00:23:13.339 we have more in common with the people in China 00:23:13.339 --> 00:23:19.640 or in Russia or in North Korea or in Iran? Now 00:23:19.640 --> 00:23:23.069 that we all have these common... problems we 00:23:23.069 --> 00:23:26.549 face. Don't we need their scientists as much 00:23:26.549 --> 00:23:30.509 as we need our own to all get all hands on deck 00:23:30.509 --> 00:23:34.849 and find ways to get through ecological catastrophe? 00:23:35.509 --> 00:23:39.750 Afghanistan has been declared this week likely 00:23:39.750 --> 00:23:46.829 to be completely without water by 2030. We find 00:23:46.829 --> 00:23:52.200 that any of the funds and scientific know -how 00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:55.819 being directed into artificial intelligence to 00:23:55.819 --> 00:23:59.619 control nuclear weaponry, it puts us all in peril. 00:23:59.960 --> 00:24:04.299 So I think love of our friends, our brothers 00:24:04.299 --> 00:24:08.160 and sisters in China, in Russia, in North Korea 00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:13.019 makes so much sense right now. And if we have 00:24:13.019 --> 00:24:16.299 any commitment to the children in our own country, 00:24:16.380 --> 00:24:19.809 in our own lives. to the grandchildren, then 00:24:19.809 --> 00:24:23.390 we really have no choice but to try and find 00:24:23.390 --> 00:24:27.569 a way for a common homeland to be entrusted to 00:24:27.569 --> 00:24:30.390 those children in the future. Wow, thank you, 00:24:30.410 --> 00:24:34.190 Kathy. You remind me of what Dr. King said. He 00:24:34.190 --> 00:24:37.829 was talking about Jesus and himself. He was being 00:24:37.829 --> 00:24:41.369 challenged. Well, you're just impractical. This 00:24:41.369 --> 00:24:45.230 kind of universal love is... impractical idealism. 00:24:45.230 --> 00:24:47.650 And he said, no, it's the only practical realism 00:24:47.650 --> 00:24:52.150 we have left. I was so pleased, John, to see 00:24:52.150 --> 00:24:56.710 teenagers in Jordan when I was last there make 00:24:56.710 --> 00:24:59.109 stickers for themselves saying that they wanted 00:24:59.109 --> 00:25:02.609 to be compassionately maladjusted because they'd 00:25:02.609 --> 00:25:05.890 really read Dr. King's work about how he never 00:25:05.890 --> 00:25:09.990 intended to become adjusted. Isn't that amazing? 00:25:09.990 --> 00:25:14.930 To white supremacy or to apartheid or to enemies 00:25:14.930 --> 00:25:18.670 being scorned. It's amazing. To the listeners, 00:25:18.849 --> 00:25:22.170 you know, I always joke, Kathy's our general. 00:25:22.329 --> 00:25:25.349 And she called me once. I was in a parking lot 00:25:25.349 --> 00:25:27.910 in Wyoming about to give a speech. And she says, 00:25:28.009 --> 00:25:30.650 John, I need you to go to Afghanistan. To which 00:25:30.650 --> 00:25:34.789 I said. When am I leaving? And, you know, I got 00:25:34.789 --> 00:25:37.650 on a plane and left that week along with Shane 00:25:37.650 --> 00:25:39.750 Claiborne and our friend, the Nobel laureate, 00:25:39.750 --> 00:25:42.329 Maureen McGuire. And I get there and Kathy's 00:25:42.329 --> 00:25:44.970 lined up these friends, the young, the Afghan 00:25:44.970 --> 00:25:49.970 youth in Kabul. And Kathy, they were memorizing 00:25:49.970 --> 00:25:55.440 Martin Luther King's speeches in Arabic. Yeah. 00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:58.140 I've never recovered. It was so beautiful. And 00:25:58.140 --> 00:26:00.819 they were desperate to hear us talk about Dr. 00:26:00.980 --> 00:26:03.240 King and nonviolence. But now I want to go back 00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:05.519 again to this question, which is very deep. And 00:26:05.519 --> 00:26:08.640 you've already brought it up about lament. And 00:26:08.640 --> 00:26:11.619 I want you to say a word intentionally about 00:26:11.619 --> 00:26:15.579 it. So it's lament and grief and love. But then 00:26:15.579 --> 00:26:18.440 don't forget you're saying, therefore, organize. 00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:22.680 And so this was when Kathy and I were in Baghdad. 00:26:23.230 --> 00:26:24.910 And, you know, to get there, you have to bring 00:26:24.910 --> 00:26:28.650 your water. You drive in trucks 24 hours through 00:26:28.650 --> 00:26:31.829 the desert to Baghdad. And we've been there and 00:26:31.829 --> 00:26:34.349 now we're coming back. We've met thousands of 00:26:34.349 --> 00:26:37.630 people. And it's that long drive through the 00:26:37.630 --> 00:26:40.589 desert. And I quietly, I was sitting next to 00:26:40.589 --> 00:26:42.950 you, you don't even remember. And I said, so 00:26:42.950 --> 00:26:45.289 Kathy, you've been going like every two months 00:26:45.289 --> 00:26:48.250 you go to Iraq. And she then went on to Afghanistan 00:26:48.250 --> 00:26:54.920 and Gaza and Yemen. I said, okay. But how do 00:26:54.920 --> 00:26:59.259 you do this? How do you keep entering into the 00:26:59.259 --> 00:27:02.480 world of suffering and global solidarity with 00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:05.160 the people our country has killed as a way of 00:27:05.160 --> 00:27:07.460 life, like Thich Nhat Hanh did and he taught 00:27:07.460 --> 00:27:12.460 us? To which you said, I've learned to take quiet 00:27:12.460 --> 00:27:16.000 time each week to grieve for all the people I've 00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:18.460 known who have died and all the people dying 00:27:18.460 --> 00:27:22.279 from our wars. and our greed, and that grief, 00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:24.660 you said, in effect, had become a spiritual practice 00:27:24.660 --> 00:27:28.819 for me. I never heard anyone say that. And now 00:27:28.819 --> 00:27:31.700 it's normal for me, and I've been teaching it. 00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:34.859 I think it's required, as you say, because of 00:27:34.859 --> 00:27:37.339 what we're doing to the environment and with 00:27:37.339 --> 00:27:40.779 the nuclear threat. So I just wanted to ask you, 00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:42.940 because I don't know that I ever have, to say 00:27:42.940 --> 00:27:46.740 a word about grief as an intentional part or 00:27:46.740 --> 00:27:52.170 aspect of our life. peacemakers? I don't know 00:27:52.170 --> 00:27:56.589 that we can really find words for expression 00:27:56.589 --> 00:28:01.089 of grief commensurate to the crimes being committed. 00:28:01.269 --> 00:28:05.549 But that's okay. Silence, I think, in the face 00:28:05.549 --> 00:28:11.690 of the enormity of the crimes, knowing that we 00:28:11.690 --> 00:28:14.369 really will never have the words in any language 00:28:14.369 --> 00:28:18.759 commensurate to these crimes. is, I believe, 00:28:18.940 --> 00:28:22.599 a form of prayer. And so if people are reduced 00:28:22.599 --> 00:28:26.539 to silence and to their tears, let those tears 00:28:26.539 --> 00:28:31.559 flow. You or I would be a rock if we didn't feel 00:28:31.559 --> 00:28:35.400 that deep, deep emotion of grief and lament. 00:28:35.819 --> 00:28:41.740 But it does require some time. And our days become 00:28:41.740 --> 00:28:45.259 very, very busy. It's easy to feel connected 00:28:45.259 --> 00:28:48.539 all over the world. But, you know, if you need 00:28:48.539 --> 00:28:51.819 to take a season out, a whole season, that's 00:28:51.819 --> 00:28:55.140 okay. But I think probably for most of us, at 00:28:55.140 --> 00:28:58.799 least some time during the day or during the 00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:05.200 week, when we recognize just how hard we've made 00:29:05.200 --> 00:29:08.599 life for others because of the comfort that we've 00:29:08.599 --> 00:29:11.059 grown accustomed to without being overwhelmed 00:29:11.059 --> 00:29:14.700 by guilt. But I do believe, I mean, one of the 00:29:14.700 --> 00:29:18.259 graces of being part of a fest like this is to 00:29:18.259 --> 00:29:22.299 be able to sit in silence for a stretch and then 00:29:22.299 --> 00:29:25.079 get up and leaflet people or certainly welcome 00:29:25.079 --> 00:29:28.539 people. But I've been very grateful for the silence 00:29:28.539 --> 00:29:31.019 here in busy New York with all the construction. 00:29:32.019 --> 00:29:36.400 To hold a sign that says, we cannot say we did 00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:40.160 not know. Or another sign that says there's no 00:29:40.160 --> 00:29:43.799 flag. Great enough, as Howard Zinn put it, to 00:29:43.799 --> 00:29:48.559 cover the shame of killing innocent people. And 00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:53.619 then to implore other people who are more powerful 00:29:53.619 --> 00:29:57.400 to make a difference as they can and where they 00:29:57.400 --> 00:30:02.049 can. Thank you, Kathy. You've demonstrated. throughout 00:30:02.049 --> 00:30:04.349 your whole life, the power of someone to just 00:30:04.349 --> 00:30:06.849 say, well, I'm going to do something. I can't 00:30:06.849 --> 00:30:09.390 do everything, but I can do something. We all 00:30:09.390 --> 00:30:12.529 have the power to do some public action and to 00:30:12.529 --> 00:30:15.829 organize. You've always got something going on, 00:30:15.890 --> 00:30:18.750 Kathy Kelly. And at the moment, you're the chair 00:30:18.750 --> 00:30:21.430 of World Beyond War, and I want to ask you to 00:30:21.430 --> 00:30:24.269 tell everybody about that project and anything 00:30:24.269 --> 00:30:27.589 else you want to, other projects. And I put it 00:30:27.589 --> 00:30:32.519 to you before that... I always think of, I mean, 00:30:32.519 --> 00:30:35.740 the title of that group is amazing because half 00:30:35.740 --> 00:30:38.859 of our work, to paraphrase Arundhati Roy, is 00:30:38.859 --> 00:30:42.579 helping people reclaim the imagination, which 00:30:42.579 --> 00:30:44.839 is, she says, one of the first casualties of 00:30:44.839 --> 00:30:46.960 the culture of war. People can't even imagine 00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:49.799 a world without war. You can't imagine a world 00:30:49.799 --> 00:30:53.480 without the occupation of Palestinians or nuclear 00:30:53.480 --> 00:30:57.539 weapons or racism or fossil fuels and poverty. 00:30:58.380 --> 00:31:00.859 And you and I have to help people reimagine it 00:31:00.859 --> 00:31:05.160 and work toward this new vision. So tell us a 00:31:05.160 --> 00:31:09.319 little bit about that. So World Beyond War has 00:31:09.319 --> 00:31:12.599 said we're against all wars. We're not going 00:31:12.599 --> 00:31:14.859 to cherry pick and say, you know, this war is 00:31:14.859 --> 00:31:17.940 OK, but that one wasn't so good. And I think 00:31:17.940 --> 00:31:23.259 when Russia invaded Ukraine, actually, many people 00:31:23.259 --> 00:31:26.839 in the peace movement said, well, we do have 00:31:26.839 --> 00:31:32.740 to. approve war against Russia because of the 00:31:32.740 --> 00:31:35.640 terrible violation of international law and of 00:31:35.640 --> 00:31:39.319 norms. But World Beyond War said no, we aren't 00:31:39.319 --> 00:31:45.079 going to get behind any resort to war, always 00:31:45.079 --> 00:31:48.559 calling for diplomacy, believing that Albert 00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:51.579 Camus was right when he said he'd make the terrible 00:31:51.579 --> 00:31:55.430 gamble. that words are stronger than munitions. 00:31:55.690 --> 00:32:00.009 So do we really believe that? I'm pleased to 00:32:00.009 --> 00:32:02.269 work with World Beyond War because it's trying 00:32:02.269 --> 00:32:05.230 to create chapters all around the world that 00:32:05.230 --> 00:32:10.609 really do believe that. And the United States 00:32:10.609 --> 00:32:13.769 government doesn't like to see international 00:32:13.769 --> 00:32:18.910 organizing that tries to basically get people 00:32:18.910 --> 00:32:23.289 everywhere in the world. on the same page saying 00:32:23.289 --> 00:32:26.990 that the merchants of death, those who make the 00:32:26.990 --> 00:32:30.509 weapons and sell the weapons, are actually in 00:32:30.509 --> 00:32:35.490 violation of any kind of international law. And 00:32:35.490 --> 00:32:38.910 yet that's precisely the vision of the nonviolent 00:32:38.910 --> 00:32:41.730 Jesus and all the peacemakers in history, that 00:32:41.730 --> 00:32:46.869 war doesn't work, and to be human is to welcome 00:32:46.869 --> 00:32:50.430 a new world of peace where everyone has food, 00:32:51.049 --> 00:32:53.829 housing, health care, shelter, jobs, dignity, 00:32:54.089 --> 00:32:57.549 education, and that all of this is doable. And 00:32:57.549 --> 00:33:00.349 yet we get so bought up in this country that, 00:33:00.349 --> 00:33:03.890 oh, my God, as you say, we'll have to support 00:33:03.890 --> 00:33:06.210 the country in any war, it says, or I'm going 00:33:06.210 --> 00:33:10.950 to, well, this war really is necessary. But how 00:33:10.950 --> 00:33:15.410 can people help? people learn that war is obsolete. 00:33:15.470 --> 00:33:19.609 It doesn't work, and it now threatens the entire 00:33:19.609 --> 00:33:23.410 planet. So you and I have kind of dedicated our 00:33:23.410 --> 00:33:28.930 lives to just keep teaching peace. Any final 00:33:28.930 --> 00:33:31.970 thoughts about encouraging others to go forward 00:33:31.970 --> 00:33:37.710 and teach peace, even in the face of war? Well, 00:33:37.730 --> 00:33:41.140 when Jesus was in the temple and he went to the 00:33:41.140 --> 00:33:44.019 money changers who were supporting oppression 00:33:44.019 --> 00:33:48.680 of ordinary Palestinians and particularly poor 00:33:48.680 --> 00:33:51.900 Palestinians, he turned over that table. And 00:33:51.900 --> 00:33:55.920 I think that we could turn over the tables if 00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:59.799 we became more linked together. And that's not 00:33:59.799 --> 00:34:02.920 so easy always, but we can find the kindred spirits 00:34:02.920 --> 00:34:07.130 and say, all right, let's together. say we're 00:34:07.130 --> 00:34:10.269 not going to allow that table to be upright and 00:34:10.269 --> 00:34:13.590 find nonviolent ways to turn it over. And that 00:34:13.590 --> 00:34:18.170 means that we find who we can link up with. And 00:34:18.170 --> 00:34:21.190 I believe that Pax Christi International has 00:34:21.190 --> 00:34:25.590 been great at doing that. Fellowship of Reconciliation 00:34:25.590 --> 00:34:29.070 International, World Beyond War, and its effort 00:34:29.070 --> 00:34:31.550 to be international, but to keep on looking for 00:34:31.550 --> 00:34:35.880 those kindred spirits. And build those relationships, 00:34:36.159 --> 00:34:40.440 believing that ours is to plant the seeds. And 00:34:40.440 --> 00:34:45.119 it may be for another generation to reap the 00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:48.000 harvest. But if people are thinking, well, where 00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:51.739 do I find my kindred spirits? I would say go 00:34:51.739 --> 00:34:55.179 to the place in your neighborhood where people 00:34:55.179 --> 00:34:57.920 are rolling up their sleeves, cutting up vegetables, 00:34:58.139 --> 00:35:01.519 making soup, getting ready to serve the neediest. 00:35:02.780 --> 00:35:06.059 make room for shelters for those who have no 00:35:06.059 --> 00:35:09.159 place to stay. Find that group, and from there, 00:35:09.260 --> 00:35:12.159 you'll get linked up to the others who are dealing 00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:15.400 with the world -changing environmental problems. 00:35:16.679 --> 00:35:19.179 Well, thank you so much, Kathy Kelly, for speaking 00:35:19.179 --> 00:35:21.679 with me today. And thank you, friends, for listening 00:35:21.679 --> 00:35:24.780 to the Nonviolent Jesus podcast. You can hear 00:35:24.780 --> 00:35:28.239 more podcasts and find other upcoming Zoom programs 00:35:28.239 --> 00:35:33.860 at www .beatitudecenter .org. And please consider 00:35:33.860 --> 00:35:36.659 offering a donation to support this free work. 00:35:37.260 --> 00:35:39.599 And if you can, please leave some positive feedback 00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:42.659 or review at the National Catholic Reporter or 00:35:42.659 --> 00:35:45.739 Apple or Spotify or whatever platform you use 00:35:45.739 --> 00:35:48.840 and help spread the word by telling friends about 00:35:48.840 --> 00:35:51.719 this podcast. And may the God of peace bless 00:35:51.719 --> 00:35:54.659 us all. Keep on following the nonviolent Jesus 00:35:54.659 --> 00:35:56.260 and see you next time.